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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Weird House Cinema. This is Rob Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick. And today on Weird House Cinema,

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Speaker 3: we're going to be talking about the 1957 horror film

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Speaker 3: Night of the Demon, directed by Jacques Tourneur. Starring Dana

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Speaker 3: Andrews and Peggy Cummins. I know we just did a

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Speaker 3: lot of horror movies for the month of October. Hopefully

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Speaker 3: you were around for all of those. But we haven't

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Speaker 3: quite got it out of our system yet. So, Rob,

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Speaker 3: I picked this movie after I saw it included on

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Speaker 3: a letterboxd list that you sent me of films that

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Speaker 3: were supposed to be at the intersection of horror and noir.

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Speaker 3: Because I know you like the calendar tie-ins. And November noir,

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Speaker 3: that's kind of a thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, November, always a good time. And this particular list,

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Speaker 2: I believe, was compiled by John Robinson of Videodrome, Atlanta's

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Speaker 2: own video rental store. He's very knowledgeable about films, very

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Speaker 2: nice guy, fun to chat with in the store. And

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Speaker 2: I believe he put together this list. And it's a no-brainer, right?

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Speaker 2: We're recording this on, what, October the 40th. And so,

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Speaker 2: you know, we still want to get a little of

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Speaker 2: the creepy stuff in. But we can also get into

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Speaker 2: noir-vember if we go ahead and just look at a

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Speaker 2: horror noir, something that is often categorized as such.

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Speaker 3: I think we can talk more about the genre mashup features,

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Speaker 3: but I think that works. This does have noir elements.

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Speaker 3: Of course, Jacques Tourneur did make more straight-up noir films,

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Speaker 3: kind of detective movies. So he had a lot of

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Speaker 3: that aesthetic sensibility, and it's brought to the horror movie here.

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Speaker 3: But So this one jumped out at me for several reasons.

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Speaker 3: One is that it was directed by Jacques Turner, who

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Speaker 3: also made the 1942 film Cat People for RKO Pictures

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Speaker 3: and producer Val Luton. Cat People is a really interesting

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Speaker 3: and stylish movie. We actually haven't done it on the show,

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Speaker 3: but I know we'll get around to it at some point.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely on the list.

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Speaker 3: That got me interested in seeing another horror film by

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Speaker 3: the same director. I think that had aroused That previously

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Speaker 3: was the only movie I had seen by this guy.

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Speaker 3: The other point of connection for me was that when

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Speaker 3: I saw a screenshot of the monster from Night of

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Speaker 3: the Demon, I instantly thought, wait a minute, where do

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Speaker 3: I recognize that from? Why do I associate that with

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Speaker 3: my record collection? And I've got something to show you.

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Speaker 3: So this here.

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Speaker 2: Oh, look at that. Here.

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Speaker 3: So this is the cover of, sorry, I can't see

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Speaker 3: anything when I'm holding it up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Okay. Got it squared away. So that is the cover

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Speaker 3: of the Rocky Erickson album, The Evil One, released in 1980.

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Speaker 3: It's got this big collage on the front. Part of

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Speaker 3: it is Rocky Erickson's face. Then just a lot of

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Speaker 3: other texture, kind of paint splattering kind of stuff. But

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Speaker 3: it has this monster on there. I'd been trying for

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Speaker 3: a long time to figure out what movie that monster

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Speaker 3: picture at the center was from. And it is this movie.

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Speaker 3: So after watching the movie, I realized its connection with

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Speaker 3: that record, with the evil one, goes even deeper. And

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Speaker 3: we can talk more about that in a minute. Before

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Speaker 3: we do that, one thing I did want to note

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Speaker 3: is that when I went to look up streaming options

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Speaker 3: for this movie, I actually did not find it under

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Speaker 3: the title Night of the Demon. I had to use

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Speaker 3: one of the alternate titles. Even more confusingly, if you

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Speaker 3: search for Night of the Demon on streaming platforms, you're

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Speaker 3: usually going to bring up other different movies before you

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Speaker 3: get to this one. Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Very easy to confuse this one. For starters, it was

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Speaker 2: released as Night of the Demon in the UK. It

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Speaker 2: was released as Curse of the Demon in the US,

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Speaker 2: and you sometimes still see that title differential going on. Also,

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Speaker 2: not to be confused with 1988's Night of the Demons Plural. Also,

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Speaker 2: don't confuse it with 1980s Night of the Demon, which

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Speaker 2: is a Bigfoot exploitation film, one of those savage Squatch

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Speaker 2: movies that we've referenced before.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's one of the video nasties of Squatch.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is not Sasquatch noir. I don't know if

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Speaker 2: we have any Squatch noir out there.

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Speaker 3: Night of the Demon, if I recall, has some interesting

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Speaker 3: body parts getting ripped off by Squatches.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you can say that much for it.

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Speaker 3: Uh, so should we start with a basic plot summary

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Speaker 3: of this night of the demon or curse of the demon? Okay.

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Speaker 3: Here's how it goes. Uh, Dana Andrews plays a character

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Speaker 3: named Dr. John Holden, a skeptical American psychologist who travels

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Speaker 3: to England for an international conference on parapsychology during which

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Speaker 3: he intends to expose the tricks and fraud behind pseudoscientific

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Speaker 3: claims of spiritual and occult powers. He's very much a

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Speaker 3: debunker psychologist. However, Holden learns that just before his arrival,

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Speaker 3: his colleague, Professor Harrington, has perished in a bizarre accident.

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Speaker 3: At the time of his death, Harrington had been busy

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Speaker 3: investigating a coven of English devil worshippers and magicians led

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Speaker 3: by this weird hammy intellectual named Julian Carswell. And Professor

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Speaker 3: Harrington's niece, Joanna... comes to believe that her uncle's death

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Speaker 3: was in fact no accident at all, but that he

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Speaker 3: was killed by a form of ancient runic sorcery conjured

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Speaker 3: by Julian Carswell in order to keep his secrets hidden.

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Speaker 3: Of course, Holden, being a discerning man of science, does

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Speaker 3: not buy into these stories about demons and witchcraft until

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Speaker 3: strange things begin to happen. And eventually we, both Holden

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Speaker 3: and the audience, have to wonder if perhaps the same

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Speaker 3: magical weapon has now been aimed at Holden himself. First

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Speaker 3: it was at Harrington, now it's on him. So together, Joanna,

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Speaker 3: along with Holden and his colleagues at the Parapsychology Conference,

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Speaker 3: have to race to get to the bottom of the

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Speaker 3: mystery and find out if it is just all parlor

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Speaker 3: tricks and nonsense, or if the demon world is real,

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Speaker 3: and if Holden has a date with the demon.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a pretty solid plot line. A lot of

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Speaker 2: cool intrigue. And this is probably as good a time

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Speaker 2: as any to really dive into the ways that it

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Speaker 2: matches up with the sort of classic noir formula.

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Speaker 3: Because you can hear in the summary there, there is

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Speaker 3: a strong detective element in the story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. We have the skeptical investigator, which is key.

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Speaker 2: But that also may make us think back to things

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Speaker 2: like haunted house stories and so forth. It's often good

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Speaker 2: to have a skeptic involved in a supernatural tale. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: I would agree that the noir elements are indeed really

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Speaker 2: strong in this one. You don't have to You don't

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Speaker 2: have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to put

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Speaker 2: this on a shelf with at least noir adjacent material.

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Speaker 2: The film is British and set in England, but features, again,

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Speaker 2: a skeptical American investigator. Also has numerous cast members and

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Speaker 2: creatives with American and British noir experience. So they kind

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Speaker 2: of like bring in some of that noir vibe, I think.

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Speaker 2: Excellent use of darkness and shadow. Superb fog. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: just a very mysterious noir look to the film. And

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Speaker 2: then also, I really appreciated its hyper-modern and ultimately kind

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Speaker 2: of relaxed take on urban life and modern, at the time,

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Speaker 2: high-tech transportation. We'll get into more examples of that, but

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Speaker 2: a big one is going to be international air travel

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Speaker 2: and transatlantic air travel. We also have a charismatic and

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Speaker 2: urbane villain. We have a countdown thriller structure. You know,

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Speaker 2: one more murder has been planned and it's his. We

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Speaker 2: already alluded to that. And then a hefty dash of

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Speaker 2: parapsychology on top of its overt supernatural elements.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would agree with all of that. In many ways,

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Speaker 3: this film has the structure of a hard-boiled detective story.

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Speaker 3: One of the few criticisms I was going to make

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Speaker 3: is that I think Dana Andrews' portrayal of the John

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Speaker 3: Holden character almost reads more like a tough-talking private dick

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Speaker 3: than as an academic.

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Speaker 2: He really does. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So he's got that private investigator energy. He's also very

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Speaker 3: no-nonsense in a way that is reminiscent of some of

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Speaker 3: these detective heroes in a way that just kind of

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Speaker 3: cuts through deceptions and fakery and nonsense, except it turns

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Speaker 3: out in the end he's wrong and the things that

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Speaker 3: he thought were deceptions and nonsense are in fact real.

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Speaker 2: We're used to any kind of like a noir adjacent

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Speaker 2: story where like a lead character, no matter what their

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Speaker 2: profession happens to be, they end up becoming that sort

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Speaker 2: of noir figure. The kind of person who's going to

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Speaker 2: make sure they're present at the autopsy or gets to

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Speaker 2: poke around the crime scene investigation. And somehow everyone's cool

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Speaker 2: with that character being there. So, you know, just part

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Speaker 2: of the formula of the genre, I imagine.

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Speaker 3: I guess one way in which this movie does not

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Speaker 3: read like a noir is that there is no real

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Speaker 3: view of a gritty, grimy criminal underworld or anything like that.

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Speaker 3: It mostly takes place at a fairly high level of

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Speaker 3: sophisticated society. The heroes and the villains are all, you know,

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Speaker 3: academics or, you know, wealthy country gentlemen or something like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And I do wonder how... This matches up

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Speaker 2: with other examples of, or there are other examples of

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Speaker 2: noir from the time period that also kind of avoid

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Speaker 2: the criminal underbelly and just focus on the, what, the

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Speaker 2: top belly or just the top of the animal? I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure. The full noir cat or dog anatomy that

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Speaker 2: we're looking at here. But yeah, this is going to

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Speaker 2: be fun to continue to talk about these elements.

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Speaker 3: Let's see.

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Speaker 2: We already touched on the Rocky Erickson connection quite a bit.

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Speaker 2: This is our second Rocky Erickson movie. as much as

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Speaker 2: I can recall. The other main one being 55's Creature

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Speaker 2: with the Atom Brain.

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Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. That gets a whole song devoted to it

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Speaker 3: on the evil one. So there's a song called Creature

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Speaker 3: with the Atom Brain, and it says in the song

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Speaker 3: Creature with the Atom Brain, and also extensively quotes the movie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And with both of these, I imagine it was

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Speaker 2: much the same with you. It's very interesting to watch

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Speaker 2: a movie in full knowing that it Again, it was

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Speaker 2: not just a casual reference in a Rocky Erickson song,

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Speaker 2: but these are movies that meant a lot to him.

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Speaker 2: And he undoubtedly spent a lot of time with. So

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Speaker 2: he can be very illuminating, but it can also be

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Speaker 2: a little bit troubling knowing the details of his biography

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Speaker 2: and knowing some of the things that he wrestled with.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So Rocky Erickson had a lot of mental health struggles.

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Speaker 3: But it seems that a lot of these horror films

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Speaker 3: were a source of solace for him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Uh, so I mentioned as far as the connections to

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Speaker 3: this movie go, I mentioned, of course, the monster's face

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Speaker 3: being at the center of the album cover. Uh, but

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Speaker 3: from what I was reading, the connections go a lot

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Speaker 3: deeper between the evil one, the album and this movie. Uh,

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Speaker 3: so I was reading about the production of the evil

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Speaker 3: one in an excerpt from a book called disturbing the

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Speaker 3: peace 415 records and the rise of new wave by

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Speaker 3: an author named Bill cop. This book incorporates reminiscences from

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Speaker 3: some of the people who worked on the album, including

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Speaker 3: a guy named Bill Miller. This was the guy who

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Speaker 3: played electric auto harp with the aliens for the album.

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Speaker 2: What kind of instrument is that? Because my kiddo plays

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Speaker 2: the harp, but I don't know what an electric auto

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Speaker 2: harp is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Auto harp is like a smaller, uh, a smaller instrument

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Speaker 3: where I believe you can like depress a key to

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Speaker 3: say what kind of chord you want it to play.

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Speaker 3: And then you strum the strings. Uh, they found a

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Speaker 3: way to hook that up to like a hot rotted, uh, amplifier,

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Speaker 3: electric amplifier. Uh, and they describe it in the story

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Speaker 3: as once they got the auto harp running through the

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Speaker 3: overdriven amp, they said it sounded like a high rise

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Speaker 3: building on fire or a train coming off the track.

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Speaker 3: So you can hear it, I think in songs like

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Speaker 3: bloody hammer, where there's like that power of, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's a real hard sound. Yes. Uh, so, uh, anyway,

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Speaker 3: so Miller was playing the electric auto harp on the

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Speaker 3: album and according to him, he says that he thinks

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Speaker 3: about three quarters of the songs on the evil one

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Speaker 3: were in some way inspired by the films of Jacques Turner, uh,

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Speaker 3: who was especially meaningful to Rocky. Uh, and in some cases,

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Speaker 3: the link is really obvious. It's just like, it'll name

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Speaker 3: the movie title in the title of the song. For example,

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Speaker 3: the song I walked with a zombie is from the

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Speaker 3: 1943 Jacques Turner movie of the same name. But, uh,

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Speaker 3: according to this book and according to Bill Miller, uh,

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Speaker 3: Of all of Turner's work, Night of the Demon was

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Speaker 3: particularly important to Rocky Erickson. Now, the part I read

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Speaker 3: does not go into that, doesn't explain why this movie,

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Speaker 3: maybe nobody knows why this movie in particular, but it

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Speaker 3: not only was a general inspiration, it's got a whole

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Speaker 3: song devoted to it. The song is not called Night

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Speaker 3: of the Demon or Curse of the Demon. It's called

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Speaker 3: Stand for the Fire Demon. The song never says the

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Speaker 3: name of the movie. And so for a long time,

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Speaker 3: I didn't know that that song was about this movie.

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Speaker 3: But once I watched the movie and compared it to

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Speaker 3: the lyrics, it's obvious that this song is about the movie.

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Speaker 3: So it has the chorus that says, Stand for the

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Speaker 3: Fire Demon, rising into and with the clouds. You can

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Speaker 3: see how that connects to the visual effects in the movie.

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Speaker 3: The demon often seems to emerge from this blooming white

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Speaker 3: cloud that comes out of the darkness. Uh, there are

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Speaker 3: other parts that are just maybe kind of rocky Erickson

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Speaker 3: isms that I can't fully make sense of, but it

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Speaker 3: has lines like past 12 to his one and one

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Speaker 3: stand for the fire demon. I wonder if that has

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Speaker 3: something to do with the idea in the movie of

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Speaker 3: the clock striking a certain time when the demon attacks, uh,

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Speaker 3: that does happen. But then the part that's a dead

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Speaker 3: giveaway that it is about this movie is is when

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Speaker 3: it says, Satan's are we, Satan's am I, stand for

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Speaker 3: the fire demon, spirits say boo when the paper bursts

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Speaker 3: into fire. That's in the plot. So the story involves

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Speaker 3: a cursed parchment that has runic writing on it. And

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Speaker 3: we learned that the only way a person can escape

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Speaker 3: the curse in the movie, this is not immediately apparent

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Speaker 3: to the characters, but we learn later on, the only

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Speaker 3: way a person can get out of what's coming to

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Speaker 3: them is to pass the parchment onto somebody else. But

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Speaker 3: the parchment seems to have a mind of its own.

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Speaker 3: It wants to prevent this from happening. And it does

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Speaker 3: so by trying to destroy itself. So the parchment will

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Speaker 3: try to get blown into a fire and burned up

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Speaker 3: so that it cannot be passed on again. And so

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Speaker 3: this clearly, you know, spirits say boo and the paper

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Speaker 3: purse is in the fire. That's it. So this movie

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Speaker 3: was on Rocky Erickson's mind. He was all about this thing.

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Speaker 2: And I believe in the film, the demon... is described

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Speaker 2: as a fire demon at least once.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they say that. And it's been known as an

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Speaker 3: ancient fire demon from many civilizations past, like when they're

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Speaker 3: running through Babylonian Baal, Persian Asmodeus, and so forth and

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Speaker 3: so forth. They call it a fire demon in that scene.

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Speaker 2: All right. So that's another thing we can check off

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Speaker 2: the list for this film selection. It's a rocky picture.

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Speaker 3: Yes. And a big one for him, yeah.

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Speaker 2: A big one for him. It is also a Rocky

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Speaker 2: Horror picture. This is one of 11 films directly referenced

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Speaker 2: in the lyrics of a science fiction double feature from

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Speaker 2: the Rocky Horror Show or the Rocky Horror Picture Show,

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Speaker 2: alongside some films that we've already covered on Weird House Cinema,

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Speaker 2: like Dr. X, Forbidden Planet, and Tarantula. The key lyrics

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Speaker 2: here are,' Dana Andrews said prunes gave him the runes,

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Speaker 2: and passing them used lots of skills.' I believe this

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Speaker 2: is mostly a scatological joke, but it is referencing the

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Speaker 2: importance of runes in the film. There is quite literally

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Speaker 2: a passing of the runes from one person to another.

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Speaker 2: And it does require great skill, as we'll see, though

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Speaker 2: it does not relate to prunes and does not relate to...

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Speaker 2: implied diarrhea.

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Speaker 3: He doesn't say anything about prunes no.

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Speaker 2: No but still uh always fun to to come back

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Speaker 2: around to a film that's referenced in science fiction double feature.

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Speaker 3: Well i love that i love anytime we can make

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Speaker 3: another connection to the words of the giant mouth the

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Speaker 3: lips in the dark but but uh i came across

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Speaker 3: another music connection which is did you realize a sample

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Speaker 3: from this movie is the thing that plays right at

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Speaker 3: the beginning of the Kate Bush song, hounds of love

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Speaker 3: off the album of the same name. Uh, if you

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Speaker 3: go and listen to the song, like before the first

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Speaker 3: lyrics kick in, there's a sample where you hear somebody say, uh,

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Speaker 3: say it's in the trees. It's coming. That's from the

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Speaker 3: spirit medium in this movie is like channeling the, the

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Speaker 3: guy who dies early in the film. And he's seeing

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Speaker 3: the demon approaching him.

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Speaker 2: This is a great connection. Um, I'm of course familiar

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Speaker 2: with Kate Bush, but I have to admit to largely

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Speaker 2: having been a greatest hits and a playlist sort of

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Speaker 2: Kate Bush appreciator. So after you brought this up, I

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Speaker 2: did spend some time with this album yesterday. This is

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Speaker 2: the one with, on the cover, you see Kate Bush

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Speaker 2: with two dogs. Presumably these are the Hounds of Love.

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Speaker 4: Hounds of Love is the song where she barks also.

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Speaker 4: She goes like, woof, woof, woof. It is a fabulously

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Speaker 4: weird album. So it has Running Up That Hill, which

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Speaker 4: of course is a great track that was featured on

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Speaker 4: Stranger Things and had this huge resurgence. But it also

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Speaker 4: features a track that I was familiar with from, I

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Speaker 4: think these were from some DJ Boba Fett Halloween mixes

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Speaker 4: that came out several years ago for Death Waltz Records.

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Speaker 4: It's a track called Waking the Witch. It's about witchcraft persecution.

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Speaker 4: And it is such a weird song and features a

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Speaker 4: demon voice, almost like a Freddy Krueger voice that I'm

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Speaker 4: to understand is a distortion of Bush's own voice.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've talked on the show before about loving Kate Bush.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, this was such a joy to find. Because

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Speaker 3: now much in the same way, I'm imagining Rocky Erickson

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Speaker 3: watching this movie. And I'm thinking, like, why did this

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Speaker 3: mean so much to him? And now I'm thinking also about, like,

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Speaker 3: Kate Bush watching it. And I'm like, what was she

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Speaker 3: thinking about this?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And why this, like, this one little moment?

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Speaker 2: And how does it end up sort of, you know,

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Speaker 2: ricocheting through their own creative process and taking on.

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Speaker 3: This new form?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Okay, before we move on to talking about the cast,

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Speaker 3: I did want to note interesting similarities to other movies

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Speaker 3: now in the Weird House mind bank. So one of

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Speaker 3: those movies is The Devil Rides Out. Did you notice

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Speaker 3: how much similarity there was here?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Now, I did go into watching the film after you

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Speaker 2: mentioned this to me. So I definitely saw it a

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Speaker 2: lot once we really got into it, you know, certainly

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Speaker 2: in some of the characters and also having some sort

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Speaker 2: of a central demon type entity that manifests. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So The Devil Rides Out is the Terrence Fisher directed

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Speaker 3: devil character. cult film from 1968. So it would be

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Speaker 3: from 10 or 11 years after this movie came out.

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Speaker 3: Devil Rides Out stars Christopher Lee and Charles Gray, based

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Speaker 3: on a novel by Dennis Wheatley. Strong plot and villain overlap.

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Speaker 3: So in both movies, you have a dashing investigator who

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Speaker 3: arrives in England via aeroplane to confront a satanic cult

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Speaker 3: led by a charismatic and in both cases somewhat hammy

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Speaker 3: British aristocrat. Mokata from The Devil Rides Out and Carswell

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Speaker 3: absolutely share some DNA. However, I think an interesting difference

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Speaker 3: is that the hero in The Devil Rides Out, played

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Speaker 3: by Christopher Lee, is very much a paladin. He is

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Speaker 3: a man of the supernatural. He's like a faithful soldier

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Speaker 3: of God and he has studied the dark arts thoroughly

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Speaker 3: In order to better destroy them. Whereas in Night of

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Speaker 3: the Demon, the hero is the opposite. He is a

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Speaker 3: skeptic who is convinced for almost the entire film that

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Speaker 3: magic is not real. And the members of the cult

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Speaker 3: are just being hoodwinked by a charlatan. And finally, in

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Speaker 3: the end, he sort of comes around. But it's sort

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Speaker 3: of just in time. Whereas Christopher Lee is, you know,

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Speaker 3: he's got his head full of magic the whole time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. In this movie, we have the fire demon. And

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Speaker 2: in that movie, we have the goat of Mendez, the

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Speaker 2: Baphomet entity that manifests at the Black Mass.

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Speaker 3: Another interesting comparison that occurred to me is the film Pumpkinhead,

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Speaker 3: the 1988 horror movie directed by Stan Winston. Also a

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Speaker 3: film about a demon summoned by a witch's curse, which

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Speaker 3: hunts its target relentlessly until they are dead. Both of

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Speaker 3: these movies have striking scenes of the condemned person coming

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Speaker 3: to beg the curse-inflicting party for mercy, like after they've

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Speaker 3: seen what's coming for them and being told that it's

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Speaker 3: too late to do anything. You're beyond help now. I

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Speaker 3: remember that exact dynamic being one of the things that

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Speaker 3: stuck with me most when I saw Pumpkinhead when I

392
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Speaker 3: was younger. I mean, obviously it has very frightening visual

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Speaker 3: effects and the design of the demon and all that,

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Speaker 3: but specifically the drama in the scenes where somebody's like

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Speaker 3: begging for mercy and being told, I can't do anything

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Speaker 3: to help you at this point. And Curse of the

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Speaker 3: Demon has scenes exactly like that.

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Speaker 2: That's a good connection. Good connection. All right. Well, I

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Speaker 2: don't really have an elevator pitch for this one. I

400
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Speaker 2: would just say that it's a movie that I've long

401
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Speaker 2: been aware of. It's just kind of been in my

402
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Speaker 2: peripheral vision. And I kind of dismissed it as being

403
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Speaker 2: a black and white creature feature. of which I love many,

404
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Speaker 2: and there are many that I haven't seen, and I

405
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Speaker 2: didn't know enough about it to really push it up

406
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Speaker 2: the list for me until I started hearing about these

407
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Speaker 2: noir connections. So I don't know. I guess if you

408
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Speaker 2: need encouragement to go see it, I would just go

409
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,460
Speaker 2: ahead and double down on the idea that it is

410
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Speaker 2: demonic horror noir. And if that strikes your fancy, then

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Speaker 2: I think it's worth checking out.

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Speaker 3: Totally.

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Speaker 2: Now, if you do want to check it out, this

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Speaker 2: one is widely available. There are different ways to stream it.

415
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Speaker 2: I ended up streaming it for convenience sake. But physical media-wise,

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Speaker 2: and I was actually hearing from some listeners who had

417
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Speaker 2: recently acquired this, the Indicator Blu-ray is apparently the way

418
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Speaker 2: to go. It includes the 2K BFI Remastered 96 and

419
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Speaker 2: 82-minute versions for both the UK and US theatrical releases

420
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Speaker 2: of the film, and I believe some extra goodies as well.

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Speaker 3: Oh. Well, that makes me wonder, did I see, was

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Speaker 3: the version that I saw abridged in some way? I

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Speaker 3: think the version I saw was more like 90-something minutes.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I think that's the case with me, but, you know,

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Speaker 2: I neglected to clock it. So we'll see. Sometimes we

426
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Speaker 2: get into the plot breakdown and we realize that we

427
00:23:38,740 --> 00:23:41,139
Speaker 2: saw the scenes in different order or one of us

428
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Speaker 2: saw scenes that the other didn't see. So we'll find

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Speaker 2: out if that's the case.

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to think, what was the, oh, I think

431
00:23:48,580 --> 00:23:50,700
Speaker 3: we saw different cuts of the Wasp Woman, didn't we?

432
00:23:50,820 --> 00:23:53,180
Speaker 2: I think we did, yes. Yeah, and there have been

433
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,490
Speaker 2: maybe a few. It's not common, but sometimes we make

434
00:23:56,550 --> 00:23:58,850
Speaker 2: sure that we're watching the same version. Other times we

435
00:23:58,869 --> 00:24:01,070
Speaker 2: just don't realize going into it that there are multiple

436
00:24:01,109 --> 00:24:11,950
Speaker 2: versions out there. Yeah. All right, well, let's talk about

437
00:24:11,970 --> 00:24:14,650
Speaker 2: the folks who made this film. Starting at the top

438
00:24:14,670 --> 00:24:16,860
Speaker 2: with the director, we've already talked about him a little bit,

439
00:24:17,180 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 2: Jacques Tourneur, lived 1904 through 1977. French-American filmmaker, best known

440
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,580
Speaker 2: for his supernatural horror films Cat People, 42, I Walk

441
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,060
Speaker 2: With a Zombie and The Leopard Man, both from 43.

442
00:24:31,060 --> 00:24:33,900
Speaker 2: Also known for a string of noir films and crime thrillers,

443
00:24:34,540 --> 00:24:37,780
Speaker 2: beginning with 47's Out of the Past, starring Robert Mitchum.

444
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 3: I love Robert Mitchum. And I was thinking, I was

445
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,580
Speaker 3: hoping I would get time to watch that before we

446
00:24:43,619 --> 00:24:46,580
Speaker 3: talk today, but I didn't get a chance. Maybe I'll

447
00:24:46,619 --> 00:24:49,030
Speaker 3: report back on it some other time. Okay. Sounds good.

448
00:24:49,710 --> 00:24:52,350
Speaker 2: Let's see. Follow this with some more films kind of

449
00:24:52,450 --> 00:24:57,830
Speaker 2: in this noir slash crime thriller area. 48's Berlin Express,

450
00:24:58,330 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 2: 51's Circle of Danger, 56's Nightfall, 44's Experiment Perilous, and

451
00:25:04,260 --> 00:25:07,450
Speaker 2: 58's The Filmmakers. I'm sorry, The Fear Makers. He is

452
00:25:07,490 --> 00:25:09,770
Speaker 2: a filmmaker, and he made a film called The Fear Makers.

453
00:25:10,710 --> 00:25:13,820
Speaker 2: As already mentioned, today's film is often discussed as supernatural

454
00:25:13,859 --> 00:25:18,060
Speaker 2: thriller or horror film with strong noir vibes. His other

455
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 2: horror films include 63's The Comedy of Errors, which is

456
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 2: a comedy, and then 65's War Gods of the Deep,

457
00:25:25,820 --> 00:25:29,330
Speaker 2: also something of a sci-fi adventure film. Both of those

458
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,630
Speaker 2: featured Vincent Price, and they also stand as Tenor's last

459
00:25:33,650 --> 00:25:36,340
Speaker 2: two films. Hmm. Now, he was the son of a

460
00:25:36,500 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 2: silent film director by the name of Maurice Tourneur. And

461
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 2: Jacques directed in France before coming to Hollywood to work

462
00:25:43,660 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 2: for MGM in the early 30s, for whom he made

463
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 2: the 1938 crime film, They All Come Out, plus a

464
00:25:50,060 --> 00:25:53,930
Speaker 2: couple of other pictures. He also met RKO producer Val

465
00:25:53,970 --> 00:25:56,570
Speaker 2: Lewton at the time. We mentioned him already, lived 1904

466
00:25:56,570 --> 00:26:01,350
Speaker 2: through 1951. And that's essentially where he ends up working

467
00:26:01,369 --> 00:26:03,830
Speaker 2: with him next, moving on to direct the highly successful

468
00:26:03,910 --> 00:26:04,450
Speaker 2: Cat People.

469
00:26:04,930 --> 00:26:05,050
Speaker 1: Yeah.

470
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,020
Speaker 2: And he followed Cat People up with I Walk With

471
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,110
Speaker 2: a Zombie, another Rocky favorite that we referenced already. And

472
00:26:11,510 --> 00:26:14,190
Speaker 2: The Leopard Man, I want to note, I have not

473
00:26:14,230 --> 00:26:15,950
Speaker 2: seen it myself, but I've seen it kind of held

474
00:26:15,990 --> 00:26:19,530
Speaker 2: up as kind of a proto-serial killer movie before we

475
00:26:19,630 --> 00:26:22,340
Speaker 2: even had the term serial killer. So if you're really

476
00:26:22,380 --> 00:26:25,739
Speaker 2: serious about the history of serial killer motion pictures, that

477
00:26:25,780 --> 00:26:28,780
Speaker 2: is apparently an important early entry in the genre.

478
00:26:29,100 --> 00:26:29,199
Speaker 3: Hmm.

479
00:26:30,070 --> 00:26:32,490
Speaker 2: All right, moving on to the writing here. This one

480
00:26:32,530 --> 00:26:35,629
Speaker 2: is based on a story, an original story, written by

481
00:26:35,890 --> 00:26:40,290
Speaker 2: the great M.R. James, who lived 1862 through 1936. The

482
00:26:40,310 --> 00:26:44,710
Speaker 2: story was titled Casting the Runes, which, you know, maybe

483
00:26:44,730 --> 00:26:46,290
Speaker 2: it wouldn't have worked for a film, but I do

484
00:26:46,310 --> 00:26:47,950
Speaker 2: feel like that's a superior title.

485
00:26:48,750 --> 00:26:52,950
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree. I mean, that one is more memorable.

486
00:26:52,970 --> 00:26:55,149
Speaker 3: It just seems like there could be a million movies

487
00:26:55,190 --> 00:26:57,689
Speaker 3: called Night of the Demon. Yeah. In fact, there are.

488
00:26:57,730 --> 00:26:58,790
Speaker 2: Essentially are.

489
00:26:58,830 --> 00:26:58,929
Speaker 1: Yeah.

490
00:26:59,690 --> 00:27:02,770
Speaker 2: Yeah, Casting the Runes has a slightly better charm to it,

491
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,340
Speaker 2: I think. But anyway, M.R. James, a lot of you

492
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 2: are going to be familiar with him, certainly for his

493
00:27:07,180 --> 00:27:11,139
Speaker 2: ghost stories, English scholar and author. Casting the Runes is

494
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,179
Speaker 2: the fourth story in his 1911 book, More Ghost Stories

495
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,689
Speaker 2: of an Antiquary. This was the first adaptation of it,

496
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 2: but he was adapted twice more for British television, once

497
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,070
Speaker 2: in 68 and then once more in 1979. I don't.

498
00:27:25,810 --> 00:27:27,590
Speaker 3: Think I realized that. I wonder what those other ones

499
00:27:27,650 --> 00:27:27,869
Speaker 3: are like.

500
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 2: I looked them up, and it seems like people like them.

501
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't imagine that there is an important

502
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,370
Speaker 2: or certainly as big of technical achievements as this, but

503
00:27:39,090 --> 00:27:41,870
Speaker 2: I understand they're perfectly fine. And both of them were

504
00:27:41,890 --> 00:27:45,170
Speaker 2: this both sort of anthology series in which they were featured.

505
00:27:46,590 --> 00:27:49,010
Speaker 2: And nobody in the cast particularly stood out to me,

506
00:27:49,070 --> 00:27:51,030
Speaker 2: so I did not include them in the notes.

507
00:27:52,150 --> 00:27:53,910
Speaker 3: Now, Rob, I have a question because I think we're

508
00:27:53,930 --> 00:27:57,010
Speaker 3: about to talk about both of the people involved here

509
00:27:57,250 --> 00:27:59,370
Speaker 3: did you read the same thing I did which was

510
00:27:59,470 --> 00:28:04,610
Speaker 3: that including the demon in the movie like actually seeing

511
00:28:04,730 --> 00:28:09,859
Speaker 3: it embodied was a decision that was objected to by

512
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,340
Speaker 3: both the director Jacques Turner and the primary screenwriter Charles

513
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,460
Speaker 3: Bennett and it was at the insistence of producer Hal

514
00:28:18,510 --> 00:28:21,909
Speaker 3: Chester that we actually do get the movie where you

515
00:28:21,930 --> 00:28:24,129
Speaker 3: can see the demon in full and It's kind of

516
00:28:24,170 --> 00:28:26,310
Speaker 3: hard to imagine the movie without it. It's like such

517
00:28:26,350 --> 00:28:29,550
Speaker 3: an iconic image. But apparently some of the main creative

518
00:28:29,590 --> 00:28:31,790
Speaker 3: forces were saying, I don't want this. It's not a

519
00:28:31,810 --> 00:28:33,490
Speaker 3: good idea. But it's in there anyway.

520
00:28:33,890 --> 00:28:36,689
Speaker 2: It is. If you haven't seen the film, I'd say

521
00:28:36,730 --> 00:28:42,260
Speaker 2: it's the most iconic image from the movie. This sequence

522
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,620
Speaker 2: where the demon is like coming straight at the camera.

523
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

524
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 2: And it's very impressive. It's captivating. It definitely stands out.

525
00:28:50,350 --> 00:28:54,170
Speaker 2: But I can also see why this particularly was objected to,

526
00:28:54,690 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 2: because when we're talking about the themes of skepticism in

527
00:28:58,900 --> 00:29:03,300
Speaker 2: the movie, this is featured very early on. It's arguably

528
00:29:03,340 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 2: shown a bit too much. You see a bit too

529
00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:09,050
Speaker 2: much of the monster, perhaps. And it kind of makes

530
00:29:09,110 --> 00:29:11,970
Speaker 2: sure that the audience is aware that the demons are real,

531
00:29:12,310 --> 00:29:14,790
Speaker 2: or it seems to imply it very heavily. And I

532
00:29:14,810 --> 00:29:17,250
Speaker 2: could see that not working as well with this careful

533
00:29:17,310 --> 00:29:20,700
Speaker 2: balance of skepticism and parapsychology that they're laying.

534
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,940
Speaker 3: Out I totally agree I can see I'm divided on

535
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,979
Speaker 3: it because on one hand you have the themes of

536
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,390
Speaker 3: the story and the execution of the story in which

537
00:29:31,430 --> 00:29:33,930
Speaker 3: case it definitely makes more sense for the audience to

538
00:29:34,030 --> 00:29:36,890
Speaker 3: not see the monster maybe ever from what I read

539
00:29:36,930 --> 00:29:39,590
Speaker 3: I think Turner wanted us to never see it yeah

540
00:29:39,670 --> 00:29:42,020
Speaker 3: so there was always be this kind of question like

541
00:29:42,100 --> 00:29:45,740
Speaker 3: what exactly was going on here but from a cinematic

542
00:29:45,820 --> 00:29:51,260
Speaker 3: experience perspective I think it just works so well and

543
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,780
Speaker 3: it looks so good and it's part of the feeling

544
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 3: it's hard to imagine the movie without.

545
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 2: It now Yeah, yeah, I haven't seen anybody clamoring for

546
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,820
Speaker 2: a different cut of the film, for example, that removes

547
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 2: this footage.

548
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,540
Speaker 3: Though we should say there are some very cool, interesting,

549
00:30:04,580 --> 00:30:07,420
Speaker 3: and spooky special effects that do not involve showing the

550
00:30:07,500 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 3: demon embodied.

551
00:30:08,580 --> 00:30:11,510
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can imagine what the demon-free version of

552
00:30:11,530 --> 00:30:14,790
Speaker 2: the movie might consist of. And we'll come back to

553
00:30:14,830 --> 00:30:16,710
Speaker 2: this again and again, because there are several key points

554
00:30:16,750 --> 00:30:20,430
Speaker 2: in the movie where you can kind of sense this

555
00:30:20,610 --> 00:30:22,690
Speaker 2: argument in the background, where it's like, well, the way

556
00:30:22,730 --> 00:30:25,730
Speaker 2: the character's reacting here This does make more sense if

557
00:30:25,790 --> 00:30:31,030
Speaker 2: we haven't seen the demon as much. So, yeah, this

558
00:30:31,110 --> 00:30:33,090
Speaker 2: is an important thing to keep in mind about the

559
00:30:33,130 --> 00:30:36,370
Speaker 2: movie for sure. But let's talk about some of these

560
00:30:36,430 --> 00:30:41,150
Speaker 2: people here involved. You mentioned Hal E. Chester, screenplay credit,

561
00:30:41,670 --> 00:30:46,210
Speaker 2: but primarily a producer here with 1921 through 2012, child

562
00:30:46,310 --> 00:30:49,130
Speaker 2: actor turned producer and occasional screenwriter. This is one of

563
00:30:49,310 --> 00:30:52,950
Speaker 2: only three writing credits. And, you know, not that I

564
00:30:53,020 --> 00:30:56,140
Speaker 2: know all the ins and outs here, But not to

565
00:30:56,180 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 2: be mean, but this does seem very much like the

566
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 2: producer writing credit where the producer comes in and makes

567
00:31:01,420 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 2: a few changes. Right. The primary screenplay credit, as you mentioned,

568
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:11,970
Speaker 2: Charles Bennett, 1899 through 1995 Academy Award nominated screenwriter for

569
00:31:12,050 --> 00:31:17,570
Speaker 2: Hitchcock's Foreign Correspondent in 41. He's also a playwright and

570
00:31:17,610 --> 00:31:20,130
Speaker 2: his other credits include 34's The Man Who Knew Too

571
00:31:20,190 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 2: Much and War Gods of the Deep.

572
00:31:22,570 --> 00:31:24,330
Speaker 3: Oh, Man Who Knew Too Much is a good script.

573
00:31:25,210 --> 00:31:26,780
Speaker 2: Yeah, Peter Lorre is in that, right?

574
00:31:26,820 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 3: That's right. It's one of those early Hitchcock spy-type thrillers.

575
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 2: And then we also have a particular writer working on

576
00:31:34,980 --> 00:31:39,660
Speaker 2: this script and apparently doing heavy rewrites to Bennett's screenplay.

577
00:31:40,070 --> 00:31:45,530
Speaker 2: And that is Cy Enfield, who lived 1914 through 1995.

578
00:31:45,530 --> 00:31:50,100
Speaker 2: American screenwriter, director, and accomplished magician, by the way. Apparently

579
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: he had a talent for close-up magic. This will also

580
00:31:52,740 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 2: become important because we see some stage magic taking place

581
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,660
Speaker 2: in this film about black magic.

582
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,700
Speaker 3: It's interesting that in this movie we see the villain

583
00:32:01,860 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 3: doing both acknowledged sleight-of-hand trickery-style magic, like stage magic, pulling

584
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 3: rabbits out of a hat, and that's not implied to

585
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,979
Speaker 3: be real magic at all. He's just using tricks. But

586
00:32:13,010 --> 00:32:16,380
Speaker 3: then also is doing real witchcraft, but the real witchcraft

587
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 3: sometimes involves steps that are sleight-of-hand. Yeah. Yeah.

588
00:32:21,110 --> 00:32:23,870
Speaker 2: So an interesting balance here and perhaps playing into some

589
00:32:23,890 --> 00:32:27,670
Speaker 2: of the deeper elements of the picture. Um, so Cy

590
00:32:27,730 --> 00:32:32,030
Speaker 2: Enfield was blacklisted in Hollywood at the time, um, and was,

591
00:32:32,270 --> 00:32:36,540
Speaker 2: and was working often uncredited in England. And, uh, yeah, he's,

592
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,420
Speaker 2: he's credited with improving on the Bennett screenplay and again,

593
00:32:40,460 --> 00:32:42,780
Speaker 2: a heavy rewrite by stripping out a lot of the

594
00:32:42,820 --> 00:32:47,470
Speaker 2: comedic and lighter elements and really laying in the psychological

595
00:32:47,530 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 2: tension and the parapsychology. So again, often credited as being

596
00:32:52,020 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: a major influence on the final shape of the shooting

597
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 2: script here. All right, getting into the cast, we've been

598
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,620
Speaker 2: talking about Dana Andrews, who plays John Holden here. He

599
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:07,250
Speaker 2: lived 1909 through 1992, American actor for whom this is

600
00:33:07,350 --> 00:33:10,750
Speaker 2: one of only two horror films in his filmography, alongside

601
00:33:10,790 --> 00:33:13,890
Speaker 2: the 1966 Nazi zombie film, The Frozen Dead.

602
00:33:13,910 --> 00:33:16,330
Speaker 3: I believe we've.

603
00:33:15,770 --> 00:33:17,970
Speaker 2: Referenced that one on the show before, what we've talked

604
00:33:18,010 --> 00:33:21,990
Speaker 2: about on Dead Nazi Movies. Demon is certainly considered the

605
00:33:22,030 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 2: better of these two, by the way. He was primarily

606
00:33:25,140 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 2: known for noir pictures like 44's Laura, 45's Fallen Angel,

607
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 2: and dramas like 46's The Best Years of Our Lives. Yeah.

608
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,630
Speaker 3: This is the character we were talking about earlier who,

609
00:33:37,670 --> 00:33:39,910
Speaker 3: I think he's pretty good in this movie, but he

610
00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:43,710
Speaker 3: is a slightly awkward fit as a scientist or as

611
00:33:43,750 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: an academic. He does feel more like a tough-talking private dick.

612
00:33:47,420 --> 00:33:51,980
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. He definitely brings that hard-boiled American noir vibe

613
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 2: to the picture.

614
00:33:53,380 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 3: And I.

615
00:33:55,220 --> 00:33:58,900
Speaker 2: Can imagine this maybe being an intentional casting choice by

616
00:33:58,940 --> 00:34:00,719
Speaker 2: the producers to make sure they had a film that

617
00:34:00,980 --> 00:34:06,020
Speaker 2: had broad appeal, appealed to U.S. viewers, if you will.

618
00:34:07,380 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 2: And it also, I think it works well, too, to

619
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:11,820
Speaker 2: have him be such a perfect fish out of water.

620
00:34:13,210 --> 00:34:16,609
Speaker 2: But it also creates this idea that the United States

621
00:34:16,630 --> 00:34:18,590
Speaker 2: at the time is a place of just reason and logic,

622
00:34:19,070 --> 00:34:23,890
Speaker 2: and the UK is a place of deep-seated magic. This

623
00:34:23,950 --> 00:34:27,660
Speaker 2: is not true, of course, and it's not really what

624
00:34:27,700 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 2: the movie's pitching, but this kind of duality works well

625
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:37,510
Speaker 2: in a movie like this. Again, classic detective stuff. All right,

626
00:34:37,550 --> 00:34:40,710
Speaker 2: up next we have Peggy Cummins, again playing Joanna Harrington.

627
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,270
Speaker 2: She lived 1925 through 2017. Irish actress here in her

628
00:34:45,469 --> 00:34:48,930
Speaker 2: only horror role. Her other film roles include, let's see,

629
00:34:48,969 --> 00:34:52,190
Speaker 2: she was in the 1950 noir Gun Crazy. She starred

630
00:34:52,230 --> 00:34:56,150
Speaker 2: in that. And she was in Cy Enfield's picture from 57,

631
00:34:56,150 --> 00:34:56,730
Speaker 2: Hell Drivers.

632
00:34:57,469 --> 00:35:00,390
Speaker 3: So Peggy Cummins is going to be playing the secondary protagonist,

633
00:35:00,469 --> 00:35:04,069
Speaker 3: Joanna Harrington. She is the niece of the guy who

634
00:35:04,110 --> 00:35:06,860
Speaker 3: dies at the beginning of the movie. She plays an

635
00:35:06,890 --> 00:35:10,890
Speaker 3: American kindergarten teacher who who flies across the ocean, I guess,

636
00:35:10,930 --> 00:35:13,750
Speaker 3: to see her uncle. But then when he gets there, oh,

637
00:35:13,850 --> 00:35:17,610
Speaker 3: he got killed by a demon. As we mentioned, Holden

638
00:35:17,730 --> 00:35:21,470
Speaker 3: has pressure coming at him from multiple directions to give

639
00:35:21,530 --> 00:35:24,580
Speaker 3: up his skepticism and belief in magic. And so the

640
00:35:24,620 --> 00:35:26,860
Speaker 3: character of Joanna is going to be one of those

641
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 3: sources of pressure. But with her, it's slightly, it's differently

642
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,420
Speaker 3: tinged because for her, it's personal. She's trying to investigate

643
00:35:35,460 --> 00:35:37,739
Speaker 3: the death of her uncle. You know, she becomes a

644
00:35:37,780 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 3: detective agent in her own way. Uh, she's like reading

645
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,580
Speaker 3: his diaries and trying to put the pieces together and

646
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 3: all signs for her point toward actual witchcraft being responsible

647
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,980
Speaker 3: for his death. Uh, Holden is repeatedly dismissive of that

648
00:35:52,020 --> 00:35:54,280
Speaker 3: and she's not putting up with it when he's dismissive

649
00:35:54,300 --> 00:35:56,509
Speaker 3: of that. She puts him in his place and, you know,

650
00:35:56,590 --> 00:36:00,430
Speaker 3: it's like, uh, very forcefully giving it back to him.

651
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,460
Speaker 3: And one thing that is funny about this character, we

652
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 3: were talking about it. I like Peggy Cummins in this,

653
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 3: but it's funny that her character is written as a

654
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:13,100
Speaker 3: kindergarten teacher. She does not have the energy of somebody

655
00:36:13,140 --> 00:36:16,130
Speaker 3: who works in early child education. She has like a

656
00:36:16,180 --> 00:36:22,089
Speaker 3: very sharp, not patient adult oriented kind of personality.

657
00:36:22,110 --> 00:36:22,190
Speaker 1: Yeah.

658
00:36:22,870 --> 00:36:26,029
Speaker 2: Yeah. We were talking about this before we turn on

659
00:36:26,050 --> 00:36:29,310
Speaker 2: the mics. Strange choice to have her be a kindergarten teacher. And,

660
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,020
Speaker 2: I am the son of a kindergarten teacher. I know

661
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,950
Speaker 2: that they're hard workers, and they're more than capable of

662
00:36:34,989 --> 00:36:40,049
Speaker 2: going after supernatural and demonic enemies. But it just seemed

663
00:36:40,070 --> 00:36:42,630
Speaker 2: like there were maybe more options on the table here

664
00:36:42,670 --> 00:36:47,890
Speaker 2: for this character, profession-wise, especially given that she's presented as

665
00:36:47,950 --> 00:36:51,270
Speaker 2: kind of a jet-setter here. Why not have her be

666
00:36:51,350 --> 00:36:52,270
Speaker 2: something else? I don't know.

667
00:36:52,980 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 3: Well, I guess the main thing I'm thinking about is

668
00:36:54,900 --> 00:36:58,260
Speaker 3: that the personality of somebody who works in early child education,

669
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,590
Speaker 3: I feel like has to have some element of patience

670
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,710
Speaker 3: in it. And she just is the she does not

671
00:37:02,770 --> 00:37:05,050
Speaker 3: feel like a patient person. Yeah.

672
00:37:05,250 --> 00:37:05,469
Speaker 4: Yeah.

673
00:37:06,810 --> 00:37:10,190
Speaker 2: I will say I think it is the kindergarten teacher

674
00:37:10,210 --> 00:37:13,850
Speaker 2: thing aside. I do like her presentation here in that

675
00:37:13,910 --> 00:37:17,390
Speaker 2: she is a she's a strong, confident character. She's not

676
00:37:17,489 --> 00:37:22,330
Speaker 2: just a she's no mere damsel in distress. So I

677
00:37:22,390 --> 00:37:24,750
Speaker 2: do like the way that she factors into the picture.

678
00:37:25,890 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 2: All right, let's get to our villain here, Dr. Julian Carswell,

679
00:37:29,140 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 2: played by Niall McGuinness, who lived 1913 through 1977. Irish

680
00:37:34,780 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 2: actor of stage and screen, whose other credits include the

681
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,280
Speaker 2: horror movies Island of Terror in 66 and Torture Garden

682
00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:44,660
Speaker 2: in 67. That's an amicus picture. He played Zeus in

683
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,710
Speaker 2: 63's Jason and the Argonauts. And his other credits include

684
00:37:48,730 --> 00:37:52,830
Speaker 2: 48's Hamlet. 53 is Martin Luther. That was a title

685
00:37:52,890 --> 00:37:56,169
Speaker 2: role in that one. 64 is Beckett and 65 is

686
00:37:56,230 --> 00:37:57,989
Speaker 2: the warlord, among many others.

687
00:37:58,950 --> 00:38:01,529
Speaker 3: We'll talk more about the character of Carswell as we

688
00:38:01,550 --> 00:38:04,589
Speaker 3: go on. But now McGinnis does interesting things with this.

689
00:38:05,030 --> 00:38:07,430
Speaker 3: As we said, he's a bit hammy, but it works

690
00:38:07,489 --> 00:38:11,270
Speaker 3: in the role. You know, it's not just something he

691
00:38:11,330 --> 00:38:14,609
Speaker 3: brings that's alien to the role. Like the character is hammy, too.

692
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 3: The character does stage magic.

693
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does really work, especially with that stage. He

694
00:38:19,940 --> 00:38:21,060
Speaker 2: is literally a clown.

695
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

696
00:38:22,100 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 2: There's a key scene where he is wearing clown makeup.

697
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,700
Speaker 2: He's got the grease paint on. And yeah, it's like

698
00:38:27,739 --> 00:38:31,989
Speaker 2: he's always he's always on. He's always performing. And there

699
00:38:32,030 --> 00:38:34,870
Speaker 2: is a there is an essence of performance in even

700
00:38:34,910 --> 00:38:37,770
Speaker 2: the very real and very serious demonic magic that he

701
00:38:37,790 --> 00:38:38,790
Speaker 2: has involved himself in.

702
00:38:39,010 --> 00:38:43,750
Speaker 3: Yeah. But interesting choice, even from a writing standpoint. to

703
00:38:43,810 --> 00:38:47,850
Speaker 3: make your main villain and your deeply menacing evil character

704
00:38:47,890 --> 00:38:51,340
Speaker 3: who does business with the devil regularly, someone who is in,

705
00:38:52,340 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 3: in their basic presentation, quite jovial and friendly and polite

706
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 3: and even a bit silly.

707
00:38:57,580 --> 00:38:57,660
Speaker 1: Yeah.

708
00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

709
00:39:00,340 --> 00:39:03,009
Speaker 2: All right. Uh, just, uh, let's see a few supporting characters.

710
00:39:03,070 --> 00:39:06,750
Speaker 2: We have, um, uh, again, professor Henry Harrington played by

711
00:39:06,850 --> 00:39:09,029
Speaker 2: Maurice denim who lived 1909 through 2002. So doomed professor, uh,

712
00:39:11,910 --> 00:39:14,180
Speaker 2: English actor whose other credits include 73's The Day of

713
00:39:14,219 --> 00:39:18,380
Speaker 2: the Jackal, Torture Garden, Luther, Countess Dracula in 71, and

714
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 2: 1993's The Last Vampire, a Jeremy Brett Sherlock Holmes TV movie,

715
00:39:23,660 --> 00:39:25,589
Speaker 2: and just lots of TV credits on top of that.

716
00:39:26,270 --> 00:39:29,430
Speaker 3: Wait, this just reminded me, did you bring up recently

717
00:39:29,489 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 3: that there's a Jeremy Brett actual vampire movie?

718
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 2: Ooh, I don't think it's a vampire movie. It's a

719
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,710
Speaker 2: horror fiction writer whose creations are coming alive.

720
00:39:40,870 --> 00:39:43,230
Speaker 3: Oh, that's what it was. I'm misremembering.

721
00:39:44,410 --> 00:39:48,170
Speaker 2: But he would have been perfect. He could have played Dracula,

722
00:39:48,469 --> 00:39:50,690
Speaker 2: as far as I'm concerned. To my knowledge, I don't

723
00:39:50,730 --> 00:39:55,109
Speaker 2: think he ever did on stage or anything, certainly not

724
00:39:55,180 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 2: in TV or film. All right. Oh, here's a fun one.

725
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:05,060
Speaker 2: We have Athene Saylor playing Mrs. Carswell. This is our

726
00:40:05,380 --> 00:40:10,830
Speaker 2: villain's mother. We don't always get the villain's mother, aged mother,

727
00:40:11,489 --> 00:40:13,330
Speaker 2: in a picture like this, but we have it here.

728
00:40:13,710 --> 00:40:16,090
Speaker 3: Surprisingly prominent, too. Yeah, yeah.

729
00:40:16,150 --> 00:40:19,890
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, she plays a major role here. And this

730
00:40:20,030 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 2: particular actress lived 1889 through 1990. She was an actress

731
00:40:24,300 --> 00:40:27,180
Speaker 2: of stage, screen and TV, lived to be 101. And

732
00:40:27,340 --> 00:40:29,900
Speaker 2: I was reading that she appeared on stage at 101

733
00:40:29,900 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 2: for the Royal National Theatre. I'm not sure in what capacity.

734
00:40:34,260 --> 00:40:37,540
Speaker 2: I can't imagine it was a huge role. But, you know,

735
00:40:37,780 --> 00:40:42,310
Speaker 2: she was very celebrated for her longevity. Let's see. We

736
00:40:42,350 --> 00:40:45,270
Speaker 2: also we have a bit character that is notable by

737
00:40:45,290 --> 00:40:47,710
Speaker 2: the name of Rand Hobart. We'll get to him in

738
00:40:47,750 --> 00:40:51,460
Speaker 2: a bit. Very key scene played by Brian Wild, who

739
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,220
Speaker 2: lived 1927 through 2008. His other credits include just small

740
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,700
Speaker 2: roles and pictures like 67's You Only Live Twice and

741
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,339
Speaker 2: 1966's Rasputin the Mad Monk.

742
00:41:02,190 --> 00:41:05,549
Speaker 3: Only lived twice is he like a specter assassin or

743
00:41:05,590 --> 00:41:06,270
Speaker 3: something in that.

744
00:41:06,230 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 2: Probably yeah yeah some some background role but but he's

745
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,540
Speaker 2: notable in this he has a really really fun manic

746
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 2: performance all right we mentioned the monster suit the monster

747
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,790
Speaker 2: suit in this movie was designed by oscar-winning art director

748
00:41:19,870 --> 00:41:23,250
Speaker 2: ken adam who lived 1921 through 2016 and built by

749
00:41:23,330 --> 00:41:27,850
Speaker 2: george blackwell who lived 1907 through 1975 who did special

750
00:41:27,910 --> 00:41:30,299
Speaker 2: effects on such films as 64s the mask of the

751
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,470
Speaker 2: red death and The Curse of the Mummy's Tomb, 65's She,

752
00:41:34,570 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 2: and 71's The Abominable Dr. Fibes. And yeah, we mentioned

753
00:41:40,100 --> 00:41:43,060
Speaker 2: already that the director was against showing the monster at all,

754
00:41:43,460 --> 00:41:46,500
Speaker 2: and the monster bits were apparently post-production inserts at the

755
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 2: producer's insistence. The monster itself, now the cool light in

756
00:41:51,780 --> 00:41:54,540
Speaker 2: the sky, fire in the sky sequences, those were very

757
00:41:54,580 --> 00:41:57,900
Speaker 2: much the director's work. But once we get into full-blown

758
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:03,410
Speaker 2: demon coming at you, that's where things are different. Those

759
00:42:03,750 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 2: cloud fire in the sky effects, by the way, those

760
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 2: are generally credited to Blackwell, along with Wally Weavers, who

761
00:42:10,660 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 2: lived 1917 through 1983. He also worked on 2001's Superman

762
00:42:15,660 --> 00:42:19,129
Speaker 2: and Rocky Horror, as well as S.D. Onions, who lived

763
00:42:19,130 --> 00:42:25,710
Speaker 2: 1906 through 1968, heavily credited on the cloud effects, and

764
00:42:26,550 --> 00:42:28,890
Speaker 2: Jacques Tourneur directed those as well.

765
00:42:29,420 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 3: Oh, okay. SD Onions. We need a cloud effect. Get

766
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:33,859
Speaker 3: onions on the line.

767
00:42:34,140 --> 00:42:37,300
Speaker 2: I know. I do love the name SD Onions. It's pretty.

768
00:42:45,450 --> 00:42:45,529
Speaker 1: Fun.

769
00:42:45,550 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 2: Then finally, the music. Clifton Parker, who lived 1905 through 1989.

770
00:42:49,510 --> 00:42:52,469
Speaker 2: His other horror films include 61's Taste of Fear with

771
00:42:52,510 --> 00:42:55,230
Speaker 2: Christopher Lee and 48's Daughter of Darkness.

772
00:42:55,610 --> 00:42:59,660
Speaker 3: Hmm. Speaking of the music, man, this movie has some

773
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:03,819
Speaker 3: bombastic music, like really going for it. It's a night

774
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 3: on Bald Mountain type stuff. Yes. And we get some

775
00:43:07,020 --> 00:43:08,939
Speaker 3: of that right at the beginning. So the opening shot

776
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,730
Speaker 3: of the movie is Stonehenge, and it's a real location shoot.

777
00:43:12,770 --> 00:43:15,890
Speaker 3: I looked this up. This was before modern barricades and

778
00:43:15,950 --> 00:43:18,850
Speaker 3: visitor pathways were put in place, back when you could

779
00:43:18,890 --> 00:43:21,470
Speaker 3: just walk up to the site and touch the stones.

780
00:43:21,950 --> 00:43:24,770
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had the same thought because I have been

781
00:43:24,790 --> 00:43:28,620
Speaker 2: fortunate enough to visit Stonehenge. And yeah, you don't get

782
00:43:28,660 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 2: this isolated scene. And so at first I was like,

783
00:43:30,260 --> 00:43:33,110
Speaker 2: is this a model? Or is this, this is shortly

784
00:43:33,140 --> 00:43:36,629
Speaker 2: after Merlin had it constructed, I guess. Yeah.

785
00:43:36,670 --> 00:43:38,930
Speaker 3: I think if this were now we'd see some ropes around,

786
00:43:38,950 --> 00:43:42,589
Speaker 3: you know, keeping people away. But we get a narrator,

787
00:43:42,790 --> 00:43:46,330
Speaker 3: narrator's voiceover. I wonder what you think about this, Rob.

788
00:43:46,530 --> 00:43:48,609
Speaker 3: I don't know if we need this voiceover. I don't

789
00:43:48,630 --> 00:43:50,469
Speaker 3: know if the movie benefits from this, but here's what

790
00:43:50,489 --> 00:43:54,359
Speaker 3: it says. It has been written since the beginning of time,

791
00:43:54,610 --> 00:43:59,700
Speaker 3: even unto these ancient stones, that evil supernatural creatures exist

792
00:43:59,860 --> 00:44:02,700
Speaker 3: in a world of darkness. And it is also said,

793
00:44:03,140 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 3: man using the ancient power of the ancient runic symbols

794
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:11,390
Speaker 3: can call forth these powers of darkness, the demons of hell.

795
00:44:11,989 --> 00:44:15,450
Speaker 3: Through the ages, men have feared and worshipped these creatures.

796
00:44:15,850 --> 00:44:19,650
Speaker 3: The practice of witchcraft, the cults of evil, have endured

797
00:44:19,870 --> 00:44:21,549
Speaker 3: and exist to this day.

798
00:44:22,620 --> 00:44:25,760
Speaker 2: That really has first draft energy to it, doesn't it? Totally. Yeah.

799
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 3: I mean, it's weird. The script to this movie, I think,

800
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,930
Speaker 3: is quite good. It's a strong script. This, I feel like,

801
00:44:30,969 --> 00:44:34,170
Speaker 3: is not very well written. It's kind of clumsy and

802
00:44:34,290 --> 00:44:35,690
Speaker 3: doesn't add much. I don't know.

803
00:44:36,350 --> 00:44:36,529
Speaker 1: Yeah.

804
00:44:36,610 --> 00:44:38,980
Speaker 2: If nothing else, ancient power of ancient runic symbols. Come on.

805
00:44:39,170 --> 00:44:41,170
Speaker 2: We've got two ancients in there. Let's swap something out.

806
00:44:42,530 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 3: But I love the tone set by the first shots

807
00:44:45,300 --> 00:44:48,770
Speaker 3: once the action begins. So it's nighttime action. And we're

808
00:44:48,890 --> 00:44:52,370
Speaker 3: watching from within the forest as a car speeds down

809
00:44:52,410 --> 00:44:55,670
Speaker 3: a country road in England. So you see its headlights

810
00:44:55,770 --> 00:45:00,500
Speaker 3: disappearing and reappearing in these ghostly halos. It's like our

811
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,500
Speaker 3: line of sight to the car is blocked and then

812
00:45:02,580 --> 00:45:05,620
Speaker 3: opened again while the car goes between trees, these wide

813
00:45:05,700 --> 00:45:09,180
Speaker 3: black tree trunks. Very cool use of shadow and silhouette

814
00:45:09,219 --> 00:45:13,299
Speaker 3: in these nighttime shots. We see inside the car, the

815
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 3: man driving is agitated. He rubs his forehead. We will

816
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,379
Speaker 3: learn that this is Professor Harrington. We see from his

817
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,760
Speaker 3: point of view as the car cuts through the woods

818
00:45:22,940 --> 00:45:26,060
Speaker 3: and then we see the limbs illuminated overhead and they

819
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 3: look like witches' fingers reaching out of the dark. It's

820
00:45:28,700 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 3: a very good look. Eventually he arrives at a huge

821
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,150
Speaker 3: English country house called Lufford Hall. A butler answers the

822
00:45:36,170 --> 00:45:39,010
Speaker 3: door and Harrington barges in saying he needs to speak

823
00:45:39,050 --> 00:45:42,930
Speaker 3: with Carswell at once. So again, Carswell is our villain

824
00:45:42,969 --> 00:45:45,250
Speaker 3: for the film. He is currently off to the side

825
00:45:45,290 --> 00:45:47,850
Speaker 3: in the drawing room wearing a tuxedo jacket and bow

826
00:45:47,890 --> 00:45:50,790
Speaker 3: tie in his own house, playing cards with his mom.

827
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:53,820
Speaker 2: Classic villain material right here.

828
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,859
Speaker 3: Wearing a tuxedo, playing cards with mom. So he does

829
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 3: live with his elderly mother. And Carswell himself, he is

830
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,940
Speaker 3: a stout middle-aged man with a mustache-less goatee. I don't

831
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:07,380
Speaker 3: know if there's a name for that. What do you

832
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 3: call it? It doesn't connect to the sideburns. So it's

833
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 3: just goatee beard, but no mustache.

834
00:46:11,660 --> 00:46:12,379
Speaker 2: Is that the Van Dyke?

835
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 3: No, a Van Dyke has a mustache. It has a mustache.

836
00:46:14,820 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 3: That's a way of shaping the goatee. I don't know.

837
00:46:17,060 --> 00:46:20,260
Speaker 3: It's kind of like a Van Dyke, but without a mustache.

838
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,460
Speaker 2: I've never grown one, so I never had to name it.

839
00:46:25,340 --> 00:46:29,050
Speaker 3: But yeah, just pointy little beard part. And I already

840
00:46:29,090 --> 00:46:32,950
Speaker 3: mentioned he is something of a ham. The one way

841
00:46:32,989 --> 00:46:35,150
Speaker 3: to explain this guy is it would fit right in

842
00:46:35,210 --> 00:46:37,850
Speaker 3: if you put a phrase like the amazing in front

843
00:46:37,870 --> 00:46:41,290
Speaker 3: of his name. Yeah. So Carswell sends his mom into

844
00:46:41,330 --> 00:46:44,190
Speaker 3: the other room, and once he is alone with Harrington,

845
00:46:44,350 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 3: Harrington starts to plead pathetically with Carswell. He says, call

846
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 3: it off, Carswell. Stop this thing you've started, and I'll

847
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,700
Speaker 3: admit publicly I was totally wrong and that you were

848
00:46:54,739 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 3: totally right. And Carswell says, it's very gratifying to hear that,

849
00:46:59,140 --> 00:47:02,779
Speaker 3: but some things are more easily started than stopped. And

850
00:47:02,820 --> 00:47:06,170
Speaker 3: Harrington says he believes now. He says, I've seen it.

851
00:47:06,270 --> 00:47:09,410
Speaker 3: I've heard it. And he begs Carswell to have mercy

852
00:47:09,550 --> 00:47:12,410
Speaker 3: on him and to make it stop. But Carswell does

853
00:47:12,469 --> 00:47:16,090
Speaker 3: not show pity. He explains that Harrington brought this on himself.

854
00:47:16,710 --> 00:47:20,190
Speaker 3: He says that he involved Carswell in a public scandal

855
00:47:20,250 --> 00:47:23,140
Speaker 3: and he dared Carswell to do his worst, quote, and

856
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 3: that's precisely what I did. But Harrington continues to bargain.

857
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,700
Speaker 3: He says he has a colleague named Holden arriving in

858
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 3: the country soon, and he promises that he will tell

859
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,060
Speaker 3: Holden it was all a mistake and to stop the investigation.

860
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:40,180
Speaker 3: In the middle of their conversation, Carswell notices the clock.

861
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,290
Speaker 3: It chimes, noting that it is now nine o'clock in

862
00:47:43,310 --> 00:47:47,870
Speaker 3: the evening. Carswell thinks for a moment. Then he asks Harrington,

863
00:47:47,930 --> 00:47:50,549
Speaker 3: he says, have you still got that parchment I gave you?

864
00:47:51,210 --> 00:47:56,340
Speaker 3: And Harrington says, no, it burned. I couldn't stop it. Suddenly,

865
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,339
Speaker 3: Carswell leads Harrington to the door and tells him he'd

866
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,219
Speaker 3: better go home now. And Harrington is like, so are

867
00:48:02,260 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 3: you going to help me? Carswell says ambiguously, I'll do

868
00:48:05,700 --> 00:48:08,820
Speaker 3: all that I can. We will later learn what this means.

869
00:48:08,940 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 3: It's technically true because he does nothing. And at this point,

870
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 3: nothing can be done. Harrington seems to believe he's been spared.

871
00:48:16,620 --> 00:48:19,450
Speaker 3: And so he thanks Carswell profusely and he leaves the

872
00:48:19,489 --> 00:48:22,870
Speaker 3: house and drives home. Once he arrives, he parks in

873
00:48:22,930 --> 00:48:26,730
Speaker 3: a detached garage. But just as he's coming out into

874
00:48:26,770 --> 00:48:29,930
Speaker 3: the night, closing the garage doors, we begin to hear

875
00:48:30,050 --> 00:48:34,620
Speaker 3: a strange, high-pitched skittering sound. And the music picks up

876
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 3: these whirling minor key strings. And then Harrington, frightened, looks

877
00:48:39,219 --> 00:48:42,860
Speaker 3: off into the woods where he sees first a shimmering

878
00:48:42,940 --> 00:48:46,219
Speaker 3: pattern in the dark. And then there is a cloud

879
00:48:46,260 --> 00:48:49,549
Speaker 3: of dense white mist that seems to bloom outward in

880
00:48:49,570 --> 00:48:52,310
Speaker 3: the air, kind of like a cloud of dye spreading

881
00:48:52,350 --> 00:48:54,969
Speaker 3: from a drop in a bucket of water. Very cool

882
00:48:55,010 --> 00:48:59,070
Speaker 3: visual effect. Then finally, we see the monster itself. It

883
00:48:59,130 --> 00:49:02,900
Speaker 3: begins in the distance and draws closer in. It's blanketed

884
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,219
Speaker 3: in white mist, but it is an enormous demon, shaped

885
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:10,469
Speaker 3: roughly like a human, but with outstretched wings, horns on

886
00:49:10,530 --> 00:49:14,150
Speaker 3: its head, scaly flesh, clawed hands, I think three fingered

887
00:49:14,250 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 3: clawed hands, uh, and a grotesque beast like mouth with

888
00:49:18,460 --> 00:49:21,739
Speaker 3: sharp teeth. It appears to be not walking, but kind

889
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,660
Speaker 3: of gliding through the air toward him. It almost, it

890
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:29,050
Speaker 3: billows toward Harrington like a gust of wind and Harrington

891
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,510
Speaker 3: is terrified. He screams and he throws up in the garage.

892
00:49:32,550 --> 00:49:35,010
Speaker 3: He gets back into his car, but when he tries

893
00:49:35,070 --> 00:49:38,029
Speaker 3: to drive away, he crashes into a utility pole and

894
00:49:38,330 --> 00:49:41,090
Speaker 3: brings the electrical power lines falling down on top of

895
00:49:41,140 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 3: the car. When you watch for it, it's actually hilarious

896
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 3: how easily the pole breaks when it gets hit. It's

897
00:49:48,540 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 3: like it's made out of gingerbread. It just crumbles.

898
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:56,049
Speaker 2: Outside of that, though, I mean, just the visual of

899
00:49:57,630 --> 00:50:00,990
Speaker 2: the power lines coming down and emerging from the car

900
00:50:01,030 --> 00:50:04,969
Speaker 2: and trying to get away and being electrocuted. Very impressive.

901
00:50:05,180 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 3: Gritty and kind of.

902
00:50:08,050 --> 00:50:11,069
Speaker 2: Doom that we can imagine for ourselves you know and

903
00:50:11,310 --> 00:50:14,529
Speaker 2: that coming right on the heels of this other worldly

904
00:50:14,610 --> 00:50:18,180
Speaker 2: apparition and again just cannot stress how good the monster

905
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 2: and the smoke in the sky looks in this movie

906
00:50:20,820 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 2: like not just good for 56 but just great in general.

907
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,100
Speaker 3: I agree it looks wonderful uh so yeah this this

908
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:29,780
Speaker 3: is of course what happens to harrington he the downed

909
00:50:29,820 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 3: power lines fall all over the car he gets out

910
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,580
Speaker 3: and tries to escape but he's just he's electrocuted uh

911
00:50:35,450 --> 00:50:37,969
Speaker 3: And he's laying on this tangle of power lines as

912
00:50:38,030 --> 00:50:41,839
Speaker 3: the demon reaches him and leans over his body. And

913
00:50:41,860 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 3: then meanwhile, we see Carswell at home where he watches

914
00:50:44,260 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 3: the clock strike 10 p.m. And he solemnly throws a

915
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,720
Speaker 3: newspaper into the fireplace. And then we get a close-up

916
00:50:50,820 --> 00:50:54,550
Speaker 3: on the headline as it burns that says, Carswell Devil

917
00:50:54,590 --> 00:51:00,070
Speaker 3: Cult Expose Promised at Scientist's Convention. I also paused it

918
00:51:00,130 --> 00:51:02,250
Speaker 3: here so I could read some of the other articles.

919
00:51:02,270 --> 00:51:04,460
Speaker 3: I like to do that. Oh, that's fun. Benefit of

920
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 3: modern technology that we have home video where you can

921
00:51:07,460 --> 00:51:09,739
Speaker 3: pause it and see the stuff that nobody was ever

922
00:51:09,780 --> 00:51:12,339
Speaker 3: meant to have time to look at. So a lot

923
00:51:12,380 --> 00:51:15,259
Speaker 3: of the stuff in the newspaper is gibberish. I transcribed

924
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,790
Speaker 3: one series of lines that said, one often finds that

925
00:51:18,810 --> 00:51:22,230
Speaker 3: the type of goods trucks, though they stated header for

926
00:51:22,310 --> 00:51:26,070
Speaker 3: Turner Pepper, but in I can assure everyone who has

927
00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:28,770
Speaker 3: which was due. Right. Yeah.

928
00:51:28,790 --> 00:51:31,710
Speaker 2: I mean, at the time, who would be able to

929
00:51:31,790 --> 00:51:34,469
Speaker 2: stop the motion picture and read this, right?

930
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:34,950
Speaker 4: Yeah.

931
00:51:35,340 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 3: I also did notice, strangely, some of the lines, not

932
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:39,620
Speaker 3: all of them, some of the lines in this newspaper

933
00:51:39,700 --> 00:51:43,320
Speaker 3: are lifted from the novel 1984. There are just sentences

934
00:51:43,380 --> 00:51:46,540
Speaker 3: about Big Brother, Ministry of Truth, and the Inner Party.

935
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 3: I thought that was interesting.

936
00:51:47,660 --> 00:51:48,359
Speaker 1: Yeah.

937
00:51:48,420 --> 00:51:50,580
Speaker 2: Just throw it in there. Fill some white space.

938
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

939
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 3: Anyway, so Harrington is dead. And Carswell, of course, we

940
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 3: now know is flinging demons at So it's time to

941
00:51:58,940 --> 00:52:02,379
Speaker 3: meet our two main characters, which we will on an airplane. Again,

942
00:52:02,420 --> 00:52:06,740
Speaker 3: we have Dana Andrews playing Professor John Holden. He's flying

943
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 3: to England for this parapsychology conference. And Peggy Cummins playing

944
00:52:10,500 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 3: Joanna Harrington. And again, the guy who just got fried

945
00:52:14,260 --> 00:52:17,140
Speaker 3: on the power lines was her uncle. And when we

946
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:21,030
Speaker 3: go into this airplane, it's amazing. Look how much room

947
00:52:21,090 --> 00:52:24,850
Speaker 3: there is on this plane. Dana Andrews is basically, so

948
00:52:24,870 --> 00:52:27,300
Speaker 3: he's leaning back in his seat to sleep. with a

949
00:52:27,380 --> 00:52:30,299
Speaker 3: newspaper over his face, and the seat goes almost all

950
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:31,950
Speaker 3: the way horizontal. It's crazy.

951
00:52:32,510 --> 00:52:35,850
Speaker 2: Well, I think it was essentially all first class in

952
00:52:35,890 --> 00:52:40,570
Speaker 2: these days. Like, transatlantic air travel was, I think, still

953
00:52:40,730 --> 00:52:44,510
Speaker 2: very much an elite sort of thing. I was reading

954
00:52:44,570 --> 00:52:46,770
Speaker 2: into it a little bit. I think some lower fares

955
00:52:46,850 --> 00:52:50,129
Speaker 2: were being explored and rolled out around the time this

956
00:52:50,190 --> 00:52:56,180
Speaker 2: film actually came out. But I do love this airplane sequence. Like, it's... Yeah, it's,

957
00:52:56,340 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 2: you know, it's obviously a set. They didn't film it

958
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:00,340
Speaker 2: in the sky. But it's not a, it's not a

959
00:53:00,380 --> 00:53:02,319
Speaker 2: crappy looking set. It's not like Plan 9 from Outer

960
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 2: Space or something.

961
00:53:03,420 --> 00:53:03,900
Speaker 3: Right.

962
00:53:04,660 --> 00:53:08,110
Speaker 2: But I love the casual modernity of the sequence. So,

963
00:53:08,510 --> 00:53:12,230
Speaker 2: this film shows us that transatlantic air travel is not

964
00:53:12,310 --> 00:53:15,930
Speaker 2: only not a big deal, it's actually rather boring. It's

965
00:53:15,950 --> 00:53:20,310
Speaker 2: a little uncomfortable. You know, like this is not, air

966
00:53:20,330 --> 00:53:23,170
Speaker 2: travel of this sort doesn't feel novel in this picture.

967
00:53:23,210 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 2: It doesn't, it doesn't feel dangerous. It just, It's just

968
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 2: what you do. It's what characters like this are used to.

969
00:53:29,100 --> 00:53:32,930
Speaker 2: And I think that says something about the film. Everyone's

970
00:53:32,969 --> 00:53:35,450
Speaker 2: experiencing it as a piece of the past now. But

971
00:53:35,950 --> 00:53:37,810
Speaker 2: as is always the case, we have to remind ourselves

972
00:53:37,830 --> 00:53:40,350
Speaker 2: that at the time, this was cutting edge. This was

973
00:53:40,390 --> 00:53:43,029
Speaker 2: the cutting edge world that they were presenting us with.

974
00:53:43,070 --> 00:53:46,339
Speaker 2: And that world is in tension with this older world

975
00:53:46,380 --> 00:53:47,580
Speaker 2: of supernatural intrigue.

976
00:53:47,860 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 3: That's a very good point. I think it is doing

977
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:52,219
Speaker 3: that on purpose. Yeah.

978
00:53:52,260 --> 00:53:52,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

979
00:53:53,190 --> 00:53:56,790
Speaker 3: There's also more exposition here via newspaper headlines because we've

980
00:53:56,830 --> 00:53:59,219
Speaker 3: got Dana Andrews sleeping with the paper over his face

981
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,980
Speaker 3: and it shows us the front page headline on that newspaper,

982
00:54:02,060 --> 00:54:07,440
Speaker 3: which is prominent psychologist flies to London for international convention

983
00:54:07,580 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 3: with the period. Man, they don't pick front page articles

984
00:54:10,460 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 3: like they used to.

985
00:54:11,700 --> 00:54:14,300
Speaker 2: Now, is this a real newspaper? Is this an in-flight newspaper?

986
00:54:14,340 --> 00:54:16,219
Speaker 2: That would be pretty great if the in-flight newspaper at

987
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:18,299
Speaker 2: the time was about who was on the flight with you.

988
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 3: Articles about everybody on the plane.

989
00:54:20,140 --> 00:54:21,020
Speaker 2: Yeah, that'd be good.

990
00:54:22,090 --> 00:54:24,710
Speaker 3: But it's funny also because it's a picture of Dana Andrews.

991
00:54:24,750 --> 00:54:27,219
Speaker 3: And then you see the man sleeping under the newspaper

992
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 3: is Dana Andrews. But so he he's also here. You

993
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,900
Speaker 3: mentioned it's shown as a little bit boring and uncomfortable.

994
00:54:36,020 --> 00:54:38,760
Speaker 3: He's locked in a struggle for space with the woman

995
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,460
Speaker 3: in the seat directly behind him. So he's trying to

996
00:54:41,500 --> 00:54:43,879
Speaker 3: lay back and sleep. She's writing something on a fold

997
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 3: out desktop and she's using a bright light to write.

998
00:54:47,550 --> 00:54:49,730
Speaker 3: And that's bothering him because he's trying to sleep. So

999
00:54:49,770 --> 00:54:53,529
Speaker 3: he asks the stewardess for an eye mask because the

1000
00:54:53,590 --> 00:54:55,509
Speaker 3: light is keeping him awake. She says they don't have

1001
00:54:55,550 --> 00:54:57,930
Speaker 3: any eye masks, but she offers him a pill.

1002
00:54:58,670 --> 00:54:58,930
Speaker 4: Wow.

1003
00:54:59,150 --> 00:55:02,510
Speaker 3: In-flight service. That was really something, huh?

1004
00:55:02,530 --> 00:55:02,610
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1005
00:55:02,710 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 2: I don't think even first class will start handing out pills.

1006
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:07,620
Speaker 2: You've got to fly in Air Force One for that

1007
00:55:07,660 --> 00:55:15,140
Speaker 2: kind of treatment. But still, it is fun that so

1008
00:55:15,180 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 2: much about this sequence has not changed. This sort of

1009
00:55:17,620 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 2: struggle for turf and territory where it's like, I'm using

1010
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:22,700
Speaker 2: all of my seat room. And then it's like, but

1011
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:24,100
Speaker 2: I'm trying to write back here. I'm going to turn

1012
00:55:24,140 --> 00:55:26,859
Speaker 2: on my light. I'm going to turn on my air. Yeah,

1013
00:55:27,020 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 2: it's a tale as old as air travel.

1014
00:55:30,610 --> 00:55:33,330
Speaker 3: Also, when she offers him the pill, his response is,

1015
00:55:33,530 --> 00:55:38,609
Speaker 3: no thanks, I'm trying to cut down. On sleeping pills,

1016
00:55:38,650 --> 00:55:42,989
Speaker 3: I guess? Wow. Yeah. So they continue to struggle. Like,

1017
00:55:43,330 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 3: they're jostling each other, causing bidirectional annoyance. And then when

1018
00:55:47,780 --> 00:55:51,900
Speaker 3: the plane lands, Holden is rushed by several groups of men. Like,

1019
00:55:51,940 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 3: the moment he's off the bridge, I was going to

1020
00:55:54,580 --> 00:55:56,740
Speaker 3: say jet bridge, but I guess it's not jet bridge

1021
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 3: at that point. This is a prop plane, four-engine prop plane. Uh, so, uh, anyway,

1022
00:56:02,219 --> 00:56:04,800
Speaker 3: whatever it's called, he comes out and he is mobbed

1023
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:07,860
Speaker 3: by people. So he's got like some conference handlers who

1024
00:56:07,930 --> 00:56:10,650
Speaker 3: are there to share the bad news about professor Harrington.

1025
00:56:10,730 --> 00:56:13,469
Speaker 3: His death was just the night before, but before they

1026
00:56:13,489 --> 00:56:17,210
Speaker 3: can fill him in Holden is mobbed by reporters. Uh,

1027
00:56:17,390 --> 00:56:20,930
Speaker 3: so again, it's suggesting like when an American psychology professor

1028
00:56:20,989 --> 00:56:22,970
Speaker 3: lands in London, it's a big press event.

1029
00:56:23,780 --> 00:56:25,339
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

1030
00:56:25,380 --> 00:56:26,259
Speaker 2: Slow news day, I guess.

1031
00:56:26,810 --> 00:56:29,870
Speaker 3: So the reporters follow him through the airport. One asks,

1032
00:56:29,969 --> 00:56:33,050
Speaker 3: what exactly is the function of the convention you're attending?

1033
00:56:33,469 --> 00:56:38,859
Speaker 3: Holden says, investigation of international reports of paranormal psychology. They're like, huh?

1034
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:42,360
Speaker 3: What's that? Speak English, doc. And then he says, mind reading,

1035
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:47,299
Speaker 3: fortune telling spirits and zombies. Holden says all of this

1036
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,780
Speaker 3: with obvious contempt. His interest in these matters is purely

1037
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:54,300
Speaker 3: in debunking them. But he also has a somewhat generous

1038
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 3: attitude because they come back with the kind of thing

1039
00:56:56,460 --> 00:56:59,850
Speaker 3: people always say. They're like, what, you're saying that everybody

1040
00:56:59,890 --> 00:57:02,730
Speaker 3: who believes in these things is lying? He says, no, no,

1041
00:57:02,790 --> 00:57:05,229
Speaker 3: I think some people sincerely believe in them, but they're wrong.

1042
00:57:06,989 --> 00:57:09,450
Speaker 3: And one of the reporters asks him to take it

1043
00:57:09,510 --> 00:57:12,150
Speaker 3: easy on ghosts. He says, we English are rather fond

1044
00:57:12,170 --> 00:57:15,050
Speaker 3: of our ghosts. I don't know if that's a thing,

1045
00:57:15,110 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 3: but maybe it seems like that could be true everywhere, right?

1046
00:57:18,670 --> 00:57:23,770
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, but maybe especially in Britain, yeah, in

1047
00:57:23,790 --> 00:57:25,950
Speaker 2: the British Isles. I think that would make sense.

1048
00:57:26,750 --> 00:57:29,010
Speaker 3: We also at the airport get a scene of Joanna.

1049
00:57:29,110 --> 00:57:31,390
Speaker 3: She's come off the plane. She's trying to telephone her uncle,

1050
00:57:31,430 --> 00:57:44,290
Speaker 3: but ominously she's getting no answer. And then we cut

1051
00:57:44,370 --> 00:57:48,190
Speaker 3: straight to Renaissance era illustrations of demons that look like

1052
00:57:48,210 --> 00:57:51,610
Speaker 3: they come from hermetic alchemy manuals or maybe from like

1053
00:57:51,650 --> 00:57:54,660
Speaker 3: an illustration of Dante's Inferno. So we're now in a

1054
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:57,660
Speaker 3: hotel room where several of Holden's colleagues from around the

1055
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:00,500
Speaker 3: world are gathered. One of them is this guy named

1056
00:58:00,540 --> 00:58:06,979
Speaker 3: Professor O'Brien, and he's reviewing this collection of fire demon diagrams.

1057
00:58:07,100 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 3: Other colleagues here include a guy named Williamson who worked

1058
00:58:10,260 --> 00:58:13,390
Speaker 3: for Harrington up until his death. We will also later

1059
00:58:13,430 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 3: in the scene meet an ally named Professor Kumar of Bombay.

1060
00:58:17,100 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 3: So O'Brien and Kumar and Williamson are, it seems interesting

1061
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:26,140
Speaker 3: that they're allies of Holden's, but they differ from him

1062
00:58:26,180 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 3: in that they, at least O'Brien and Kumar, definitely both

1063
00:58:29,460 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 3: believe in the reality of the spirit world and of witchcraft.

1064
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 3: So it's interesting how these, I don't know, they're portrayed

1065
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 3: not just as people at the conference, but firmly on

1066
00:58:40,260 --> 00:58:43,230
Speaker 3: Holden's side. But Holden is there to prove that none

1067
00:58:43,250 --> 00:58:46,290
Speaker 3: of these things are real and they're like his allies.

1068
00:58:46,310 --> 00:58:48,310
Speaker 3: I couldn't figure that out.

1069
00:58:48,670 --> 00:58:49,010
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1070
00:58:49,090 --> 00:58:49,310
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1071
00:58:49,370 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 2: They're as if they're just all their disagreements are purely

1072
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:56,919
Speaker 2: academic in some way that doesn't boil over into deep

1073
00:58:56,980 --> 00:58:57,700
Speaker 2: seated tensions.

1074
00:58:58,200 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1075
00:58:58,540 --> 00:59:00,540
Speaker 3: Well, but it almost feels like that they would be

1076
00:59:00,580 --> 00:59:03,669
Speaker 3: at cross purposes and their actual business at the conference.

1077
00:59:03,710 --> 00:59:04,310
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

1078
00:59:04,610 --> 00:59:05,230
Speaker 3: But I don't know.

1079
00:59:06,110 --> 00:59:08,070
Speaker 2: And maybe it's one of those things like G. Gordon

1080
00:59:08,090 --> 00:59:14,350
Speaker 2: Liddy and and and. Timothy Leary going on speaking tours together,

1081
00:59:14,390 --> 00:59:18,820
Speaker 2: you know, where they're having to debate topics and they

1082
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:21,900
Speaker 2: kind of become buddies to a certain extent during the process,

1083
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 2: even though they're fundamentally different people. And maybe not so

1084
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 2: fundamental in other ways. I don't know. The whole discussion

1085
00:59:28,220 --> 00:59:29,939
Speaker 2: to be had there. Yeah.

1086
00:59:30,710 --> 00:59:32,550
Speaker 3: There's a really funny thing early in the scene where

1087
00:59:32,610 --> 00:59:35,510
Speaker 3: one of these guys in the hotel room is, uh,

1088
00:59:35,650 --> 00:59:39,590
Speaker 3: discussing the circumstances of Harrington's death with Holden. And then

1089
00:59:39,630 --> 00:59:42,990
Speaker 3: you realize Holden is in the shower. He like leans

1090
00:59:43,050 --> 00:59:45,650
Speaker 3: his head out naked from behind the shower curtain to

1091
00:59:45,690 --> 00:59:47,870
Speaker 3: talk back to this guy. So he's getting the briefing

1092
00:59:48,430 --> 00:59:52,890
Speaker 3: on his colleagues, horrible, tragic mutilation and, and burning to

1093
00:59:52,930 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 3: death on power lines while he's like in the bathroom

1094
00:59:56,220 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 3: showering with the door open. It's kind of strange.

1095
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 2: Interesting how this meant like, um, Incidental male shower scenes

1096
01:00:02,820 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 2: are all the rage again because of what's the movie?

1097
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 2: You can see everything. Oh, yeah.

1098
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:11,100
Speaker 3: But it doesn't quite go to that.

1099
01:00:11,340 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. You can't see everything. This is a 1956 movie.

1100
01:00:13,740 --> 01:00:18,810
Speaker 3: Yes. But so just to the scene is you get

1101
01:00:18,850 --> 01:00:21,430
Speaker 3: a recap of what Harrington was working on. He'd been

1102
01:00:21,490 --> 01:00:24,350
Speaker 3: investigating a devil cult run by Carswell. We know this

1103
01:00:24,370 --> 01:00:28,740
Speaker 3: stuff along with Williamson and O'Brien. The only member of

1104
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,939
Speaker 3: Carswell's cult that they had persuaded to talk to them

1105
01:00:32,420 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 3: was a farmer named Rand Hobart. But there's a problem

1106
01:00:36,460 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 3: now because Hobart is being held by the police on

1107
01:00:39,260 --> 01:00:43,620
Speaker 3: suspicion of murder. So that lead now seems kind of hopeless,

1108
01:00:43,950 --> 01:00:48,330
Speaker 3: especially because Hobart has undergone some kind of mental collapse

1109
01:00:48,390 --> 01:00:51,290
Speaker 3: and he's now completely catatonic. He's being held in a

1110
01:00:51,370 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 3: hospital for the criminally insane. Now, one thing that was

1111
01:00:55,380 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 3: hard to figure out here is the first time I watched,

1112
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:00,380
Speaker 3: I was like, wait, are they saying Hobart is suspected

1113
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 3: of murdering Harrington? But I don't think so. I think

1114
01:01:03,700 --> 01:01:06,730
Speaker 3: he's suspected on a different murder. Right, right.

1115
01:01:06,770 --> 01:01:09,990
Speaker 2: That was my understanding as well. Because I think part

1116
01:01:10,030 --> 01:01:11,450
Speaker 2: of the theme that we're going to see this again

1117
01:01:11,510 --> 01:01:14,330
Speaker 2: is when the devil, when the demon rather, the fire

1118
01:01:14,350 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 2: demon attacks in this movie, it does so in ways

1119
01:01:17,980 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 2: that should be hard to decipher from natural occurrences, natural accidents.

1120
01:01:24,980 --> 01:01:28,740
Speaker 2: This is a little muddied by the whole producers saying,

1121
01:01:28,780 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 2: let's show the demon as much as possible. You get

1122
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:34,620
Speaker 2: the idea that there should be a lot of ambiguity

1123
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:37,820
Speaker 2: regarding what happened and what the remains look like.

1124
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:41,990
Speaker 3: I agree. That is something that just doesn't quite work

1125
01:01:42,050 --> 01:01:44,130
Speaker 3: in the version of the movie we got. And again,

1126
01:01:44,150 --> 01:01:47,810
Speaker 3: I want to give credit to Turner and Bennett with

1127
01:01:47,850 --> 01:01:50,230
Speaker 3: the idea that the movie is more cohesive if you

1128
01:01:50,310 --> 01:01:53,010
Speaker 3: actually never see the monster. Like that makes more sense

1129
01:01:53,070 --> 01:01:55,870
Speaker 3: of the themes and these tensions in the script. It

1130
01:01:55,950 --> 01:01:57,970
Speaker 3: is kind of awkward that we see so much of

1131
01:01:58,010 --> 01:02:01,250
Speaker 3: the monster with all of that. But again, I want

1132
01:02:01,270 --> 01:02:02,450
Speaker 3: to see the monster. I like it.

1133
01:02:02,750 --> 01:02:04,790
Speaker 2: I mean, I want the monster option on movies that

1134
01:02:04,830 --> 01:02:07,620
Speaker 2: don't have monsters in them all the time. So let's

1135
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:07,910
Speaker 2: do it.

1136
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:12,180
Speaker 3: Sign me up. So O'Brien explains in the scene that

1137
01:02:12,300 --> 01:02:14,630
Speaker 3: the last time he was able to communicate with Hobart,

1138
01:02:14,690 --> 01:02:16,810
Speaker 3: he put him under hypnosis. That's a big thing in

1139
01:02:16,870 --> 01:02:18,730
Speaker 3: this movie. When you want to talk to somebody, you

1140
01:02:18,750 --> 01:02:22,530
Speaker 3: got to do deep hypnosis. It reminds me of in

1141
01:02:22,550 --> 01:02:26,680
Speaker 3: the X-Files when they're always like, this case is going nowhere.

1142
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 3: Time to do deep regression hypnosis.

1143
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:31,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is one of those films, too, where hypnosis

1144
01:02:31,220 --> 01:02:35,180
Speaker 2: is highly effective. It's presented as a real game changer.

1145
01:02:35,420 --> 01:02:38,980
Speaker 3: Effective way to retrieve lost memories or to get somebody

1146
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:40,500
Speaker 3: talking who won't talk otherwise.

1147
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:46,070
Speaker 2: Not to imply that hypnosis cannot get certain results, but

1148
01:02:46,490 --> 01:02:50,050
Speaker 2: these are film results. These are movie land results. And

1149
01:02:50,210 --> 01:02:53,140
Speaker 2: I think they are rather different from what you see

1150
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:53,500
Speaker 2: in reality.

1151
01:02:54,020 --> 01:02:56,500
Speaker 3: Well, I would say that I think hypnosis is probably

1152
01:02:56,540 --> 01:03:00,590
Speaker 3: not effective in reality at retrieving lost memories. But yeah,

1153
01:03:00,650 --> 01:03:02,950
Speaker 3: you may get other types of results, you know, maybe

1154
01:03:02,990 --> 01:03:06,010
Speaker 3: results like of a more physiological or relaxation.

1155
01:03:06,350 --> 01:03:06,750
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1156
01:03:06,810 --> 01:03:06,990
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1157
01:03:07,030 --> 01:03:09,330
Speaker 2: Relaxation. One of the main things I'm thinking of here.

1158
01:03:10,390 --> 01:03:14,510
Speaker 3: But anyway, so when you put Hobart under hypnosis, what

1159
01:03:14,530 --> 01:03:16,220
Speaker 3: are you going to get out of him? Well, he

1160
01:03:16,530 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 3: does a drawing. He does a sketch. And so O'Brien

1161
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:22,530
Speaker 3: shows everybody the sketch. It is a crude but disturbing

1162
01:03:22,610 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 3: pencil sketch of a demon, much like the one we

1163
01:03:25,460 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 3: saw pursuing Harrington outside of his house. And then O'Brien

1164
01:03:30,460 --> 01:03:33,980
Speaker 3: refers to his stack of other demons from ancient and

1165
01:03:34,180 --> 01:03:37,230
Speaker 3: historical texts. And he has a theory. He says the

1166
01:03:37,270 --> 01:03:41,330
Speaker 3: Carswell cult is in command of this ancient fire demon

1167
01:03:41,370 --> 01:03:44,410
Speaker 3: that has been known throughout time to different cultures by

1168
01:03:44,470 --> 01:03:49,180
Speaker 3: different names. All these cultures told of witchcraft that could

1169
01:03:49,260 --> 01:03:53,230
Speaker 3: summon this beastly entity to do murder in the sorcerer's name.

1170
01:03:53,970 --> 01:03:57,710
Speaker 3: And then Holden and O'Brien argue over this. Holden says

1171
01:03:57,790 --> 01:04:01,210
Speaker 3: demonology and witchcraft have been discredited since the Middle Ages.

1172
01:04:01,370 --> 01:04:03,950
Speaker 3: He says, I wrote a book about it. And then

1173
01:04:04,110 --> 01:04:08,590
Speaker 3: O'Brien says, then explain how a simple, uneducated farmer like

1174
01:04:08,650 --> 01:04:12,140
Speaker 3: Rand Hobart could know anything about this creature whose legend

1175
01:04:12,180 --> 01:04:17,650
Speaker 3: has persisted in civilization after civilization forever. Babylonian Baal, Egyptian

1176
01:04:17,730 --> 01:04:23,780
Speaker 3: Seth Typhon, Persian Asmodeus, Hebraic Moloch. So as often happens

1177
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:27,040
Speaker 3: in movies like this, the believer character is going to

1178
01:04:27,060 --> 01:04:29,920
Speaker 3: be vindicated and the skeptic is going to be proven wrong.

1179
01:04:29,980 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 3: But still, this guy is not making good arguments. He's

1180
01:04:33,140 --> 01:04:35,740
Speaker 3: literally saying, how could this guy have drawn a devil

1181
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:37,120
Speaker 3: unless devils were real?

1182
01:04:37,140 --> 01:04:40,740
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a great point. But it also makes

1183
01:04:40,780 --> 01:04:43,740
Speaker 2: me think of the fact that we have at least

1184
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:47,170
Speaker 2: one sort of neo-noir a film on our list of

1185
01:04:47,210 --> 01:04:50,209
Speaker 2: potential episodes where this is inverted, where the skeptics win.

1186
01:04:50,690 --> 01:04:53,340
Speaker 2: So we should, we should, we should come back around

1187
01:04:53,380 --> 01:04:57,180
Speaker 2: and look at a more skeptic, a positive picture in

1188
01:04:57,200 --> 01:04:57,640
Speaker 2: the future.

1189
01:04:58,740 --> 01:05:02,439
Speaker 3: I mean, ultimately the movie likes Holden. So it's not,

1190
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 3: it's not trying to humiliate him. Like sometimes happens with

1191
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:09,740
Speaker 3: secondary skeptic characters. Usually your skeptic protagonist is treated a

1192
01:05:09,740 --> 01:05:13,740
Speaker 3: little differently than your, than your skeptical antagonist or skeptical

1193
01:05:14,260 --> 01:05:17,210
Speaker 3: secondary character who, you know, they often are really like

1194
01:05:18,290 --> 01:05:21,190
Speaker 3: embarrassed and they get their comeuppance Holden more like we

1195
01:05:21,230 --> 01:05:23,810
Speaker 3: see him being honorably won over to the idea.

1196
01:05:23,830 --> 01:05:23,910
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1197
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. But yeah, I actually love, love it when that

1198
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:29,860
Speaker 2: happens because we get the sense is like, Oh, you

1199
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:32,380
Speaker 2: screwed up now. You actually convinced me it's real.

1200
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:32,940
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1201
01:05:33,380 --> 01:05:34,520
Speaker 2: Now you've got a fight on your hands.

1202
01:05:34,780 --> 01:05:36,720
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, that's true. And it makes for a great

1203
01:05:37,300 --> 01:05:41,910
Speaker 3: ending in this movie. Um, So anyway, also in the scene,

1204
01:05:41,970 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 3: Holden gets a call on his hotel room phone from

1205
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:48,460
Speaker 3: Julian Carswell, the villain just ringing him up. Carswell is

1206
01:05:48,500 --> 01:05:50,580
Speaker 3: trying to nip this in the bud. So he asks

1207
01:05:50,620 --> 01:05:53,640
Speaker 3: Holden if it's true that he and Harrington were going

1208
01:05:53,660 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 3: to work together to produce an expose on Carswell's cult.

1209
01:05:57,820 --> 01:06:04,070
Speaker 3: Carswell politely asks Holden to decide not to do this and, quote,

1210
01:06:04,270 --> 01:06:08,460
Speaker 3: mind your business, not mine or Rand Hobart's. Carswell also

1211
01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:14,450
Speaker 3: prevails on Holden that before Harrington's death, Harrington had promised

1212
01:06:14,530 --> 01:06:17,690
Speaker 3: him he would stop the investigation. He doesn't say that

1213
01:06:17,710 --> 01:06:19,690
Speaker 3: it was because he was threatening him with the demon.

1214
01:06:20,610 --> 01:06:23,150
Speaker 3: But he says, I had his personal assurance. And then

1215
01:06:23,190 --> 01:06:25,850
Speaker 3: Holden says, well, I'm afraid you can't have mine. So

1216
01:06:25,910 --> 01:06:30,340
Speaker 3: he's just, he's very direct about that. Carswell says, that's unfortunate,

1217
01:06:30,530 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 3: maybe for both of us, and then hangs up. So

1218
01:06:34,380 --> 01:06:38,020
Speaker 3: Holden says, At this point, assigns O'Brien to get Hobart

1219
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:40,560
Speaker 3: released to them so they can get more information out

1220
01:06:40,580 --> 01:06:42,520
Speaker 3: of him. Surely they're going to hypnotize him again, because

1221
01:06:42,540 --> 01:06:45,400
Speaker 3: why not? And then tells him to forget about ghosts

1222
01:06:45,460 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 3: and witches and demons. We just need to interview Hobart

1223
01:06:48,060 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 3: and find out what this cult is up to. Now,

1224
01:06:50,820 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 3: after this, I just wanted to pause for a minute

1225
01:06:53,020 --> 01:06:56,620
Speaker 3: and appreciate some interior architecture, because the scene after this

1226
01:06:56,700 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 3: is the one where Holden goes to the reading room

1227
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:02,150
Speaker 3: of the British Museum, which is a real place. What

1228
01:07:02,310 --> 01:07:07,430
Speaker 3: an absolutely gorgeous interior. So Holden comes in, he goes

1229
01:07:07,470 --> 01:07:11,010
Speaker 3: here to dig into Harrington's research and figure out what

1230
01:07:11,050 --> 01:07:14,410
Speaker 3: Harrington knew before he died. But I was just thinking here, like,

1231
01:07:14,450 --> 01:07:17,170
Speaker 3: I really wish this could be my research headquarters. I

1232
01:07:17,210 --> 01:07:19,910
Speaker 3: would love to go in here. It's this giant rotunda

1233
01:07:20,750 --> 01:07:24,650
Speaker 3: with two levels of bookshelves lining the outer walls, the

1234
01:07:24,710 --> 01:07:28,860
Speaker 3: upper levels accessed by balcony. And then more shelves are

1235
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:31,860
Speaker 3: arranged like a broken labyrinth in the middle of this

1236
01:07:31,940 --> 01:07:35,910
Speaker 3: vast circular floor with desks and workspaces shooting out like

1237
01:07:36,030 --> 01:07:39,610
Speaker 3: rays to the edges of the room. It looks like

1238
01:07:39,750 --> 01:07:42,290
Speaker 3: such a great place to read. But also I noticed

1239
01:07:43,730 --> 01:07:48,440
Speaker 3: this room has coincidental thematic significance. It suggests a maze

1240
01:07:48,500 --> 01:07:50,920
Speaker 3: or a labyrinth, as I said, puts you in the

1241
01:07:50,980 --> 01:07:55,980
Speaker 3: Minotaur zone mentally. But the central rings also suggest Stonehenge,

1242
01:07:56,080 --> 01:07:58,080
Speaker 3: which we saw earlier and we'll see again.

1243
01:07:59,000 --> 01:07:59,700
Speaker 2: Excellent point.

1244
01:07:59,880 --> 01:08:02,400
Speaker 3: Yes. I don't know if this reading room is actually

1245
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:04,460
Speaker 3: open to the public. It would be amazing if this

1246
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 3: is just a library you could go to and work in.

1247
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:09,600
Speaker 2: You can just go there today and be like, hey,

1248
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 2: I need access to all of your demon woodcuts. Please

1249
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:14,300
Speaker 2: line them up for me.

1250
01:08:15,100 --> 01:08:17,160
Speaker 3: That would be really cool. I don't know. I think

1251
01:08:17,220 --> 01:08:20,200
Speaker 3: at least at one point this place was closed or

1252
01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 3: maybe it was only accessible by... like, you know, guided

1253
01:08:24,060 --> 01:08:26,740
Speaker 3: tours or something. But I don't know. Maybe you can

1254
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:27,180
Speaker 3: get in there.

1255
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:29,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, write in with your field reports. Yes.

1256
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:32,470
Speaker 3: I want to know about that reading room. Anyway, in

1257
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:35,470
Speaker 3: the scene, Holden consults with the librarian. He's trying to

1258
01:08:35,610 --> 01:08:39,250
Speaker 3: access a crucial text called The True Discoveries of the

1259
01:08:39,310 --> 01:08:43,189
Speaker 3: Witches and Demons. But the library informs him they cannot

1260
01:08:43,330 --> 01:08:46,570
Speaker 3: locate this 400-year-old text. It's supposed to be the only

1261
01:08:46,630 --> 01:08:50,229
Speaker 3: copy known in existence, but it's missing from their archives.

1262
01:08:50,260 --> 01:08:53,189
Speaker 3: So where did it go? Holden takes a few other

1263
01:08:53,229 --> 01:08:56,280
Speaker 3: books and then he gets into his research. While he

1264
01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:59,970
Speaker 3: is reading, he has a meet-cute with the film's villain, Carsman.

1265
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:03,760
Speaker 3: Carswell stages their meeting at first like an accident. He

1266
01:09:03,820 --> 01:09:06,559
Speaker 3: wanders up and says, oh, I overheard you asking about

1267
01:09:06,580 --> 01:09:10,900
Speaker 3: this text, The True Discoveries of Witches and Demons, saying

1268
01:09:10,960 --> 01:09:13,460
Speaker 3: that he has a copy and he would be happy

1269
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:15,880
Speaker 3: to let Holden borrow it. And then he reveals who

1270
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:18,750
Speaker 3: he is. Holden is like, how did you know I

1271
01:09:18,790 --> 01:09:22,030
Speaker 3: was here? And then Carswell says, isn't it the scientist

1272
01:09:22,070 --> 01:09:24,650
Speaker 3: who always calls what he can't explain otherwise by the

1273
01:09:24,689 --> 01:09:30,600
Speaker 3: word coincidence? And at this meeting, Carswell tries a different tack.

1274
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:33,059
Speaker 3: He was a little bit threatening on the phone. Now

1275
01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:36,680
Speaker 3: he's trying honey rather than vinegar. He invites Holden up

1276
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:39,179
Speaker 3: to his country house to make use of his personal

1277
01:09:39,260 --> 01:09:42,360
Speaker 3: occult library, which he brags is the best collection anywhere

1278
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:45,660
Speaker 3: in the world. But Holden is blunt. He says, you're

1279
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:48,520
Speaker 3: not going to persuade me to stop investigating you and

1280
01:09:48,540 --> 01:09:52,090
Speaker 3: your cult. Carswell says, but a scientist should have an

1281
01:09:52,150 --> 01:09:56,210
Speaker 3: open mind. And Holden says, that's what investigations are for.

1282
01:09:57,229 --> 01:09:59,729
Speaker 3: I like that exchange. I like that Holden is firm

1283
01:09:59,810 --> 01:10:03,769
Speaker 3: here and he stands firm against the weaponization of the

1284
01:10:03,810 --> 01:10:07,600
Speaker 3: concept of the open mind. People sometimes do this when

1285
01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:10,820
Speaker 3: they're not getting what they want out of you. They

1286
01:10:10,860 --> 01:10:13,920
Speaker 3: say like, wow, I thought you'd be more open-minded, but

1287
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:18,120
Speaker 3: like that's a misunderstanding of what open-mindedness is. Like open-mindedness

1288
01:10:18,180 --> 01:10:22,110
Speaker 3: in a proper sense means you are willing to consider

1289
01:10:23,250 --> 01:10:26,990
Speaker 3: arguments and evidence that are reasonable or that are worth considering.

1290
01:10:27,450 --> 01:10:29,910
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean you will just do or believe whatever

1291
01:10:29,950 --> 01:10:30,810
Speaker 3: somebody tells you.

1292
01:10:30,830 --> 01:10:34,299
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think this is a great point,

1293
01:10:34,460 --> 01:10:36,340
Speaker 2: and this is frequently misused.

1294
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:40,800
Speaker 3: But anyway, having failed again, Carswell now, he activates a

1295
01:10:40,820 --> 01:10:43,600
Speaker 3: different move. So at the end of their meeting, Carswell

1296
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:49,120
Speaker 3: accidentally quote, accidentally knocks some of Holden's papers onto the floor.

1297
01:10:49,580 --> 01:10:51,640
Speaker 3: Then he picks them up and hands them back to him.

1298
01:10:52,220 --> 01:10:55,360
Speaker 3: We will later learn that this was a very significant

1299
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:57,750
Speaker 3: moment in the plot. We don't realize what's happened in

1300
01:10:57,770 --> 01:11:01,150
Speaker 3: the moment. But in doing this, Carswell has done a

1301
01:11:01,170 --> 01:11:04,570
Speaker 3: bit of sleight of hand. And into Holden's papers, he

1302
01:11:04,650 --> 01:11:07,990
Speaker 3: slipped a strip of parchment on which he had written

1303
01:11:08,110 --> 01:11:10,690
Speaker 3: a spell in ancient runic glyphs.

1304
01:11:10,950 --> 01:11:11,800
Speaker 2: Passed him the runes.

1305
01:11:12,080 --> 01:11:15,519
Speaker 3: He did. He passed him the runes. Said prunes. Wait.

1306
01:11:15,900 --> 01:11:19,220
Speaker 3: What was the line about prunes? Dana Andrews said prunes

1307
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:22,320
Speaker 3: were hard to pass or something.

1308
01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:23,780
Speaker 2: Prunes gave him the runes.

1309
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:24,580
Speaker 3: There you go.

1310
01:11:24,680 --> 01:11:26,520
Speaker 2: And passing them required lots of skill.

1311
01:11:27,340 --> 01:11:29,660
Speaker 3: We're later going to learn this is how the curse

1312
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:33,160
Speaker 3: of the demon is delivered. So when the runic script

1313
01:11:33,280 --> 01:11:37,139
Speaker 3: is accepted into somebody's possession, they take on the curse

1314
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:40,139
Speaker 3: of the demon. Now, the rules, I think, are never

1315
01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:43,360
Speaker 3: made this explicit, but it seems to me this is

1316
01:11:43,380 --> 01:11:45,019
Speaker 3: how it works. Rob, I wonder if you got the

1317
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:49,020
Speaker 3: same idea. the person does not have to take the

1318
01:11:49,090 --> 01:11:53,290
Speaker 3: runes knowingly. They can be secretly slipped into their things

1319
01:11:53,370 --> 01:11:55,910
Speaker 3: or hidden in a pouch or something that the victim

1320
01:11:55,950 --> 01:11:58,470
Speaker 3: will pick up and take with them. And in doing this,

1321
01:11:58,570 --> 01:12:01,710
Speaker 3: they accept the curse. But I think they do have

1322
01:12:01,750 --> 01:12:05,630
Speaker 3: to be taken willingly. Like, it seems that they cannot

1323
01:12:05,729 --> 01:12:10,950
Speaker 3: be shoved into somebody's hand or pocket by force. Otherwise,

1324
01:12:11,030 --> 01:12:13,290
Speaker 3: we'd have that option at the climax and it seems

1325
01:12:13,350 --> 01:12:15,950
Speaker 3: like it doesn't work that way. Somehow the person has

1326
01:12:15,990 --> 01:12:18,479
Speaker 3: to take it or pick it up, but they don't

1327
01:12:18,520 --> 01:12:19,860
Speaker 3: have to know what they're doing.

1328
01:12:20,580 --> 01:12:23,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, that does seem to be the line here. And

1329
01:12:23,729 --> 01:12:27,290
Speaker 2: I haven't really put a finger on why it works,

1330
01:12:27,310 --> 01:12:28,990
Speaker 2: but I feel like it does work. There's sort of a,

1331
01:12:29,530 --> 01:12:32,550
Speaker 2: like you have to invite the vampire in sensibility to this.

1332
01:12:32,610 --> 01:12:35,430
Speaker 2: Like there's some sort of a, you know, an informal

1333
01:12:35,490 --> 01:12:39,630
Speaker 2: contract that has been put in place when the runic

1334
01:12:39,710 --> 01:12:42,920
Speaker 2: scribbles are passed from one person to the next, even

1335
01:12:42,939 --> 01:12:43,650
Speaker 2: if they don't know it.

1336
01:12:44,140 --> 01:12:44,300
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1337
01:12:45,710 --> 01:12:46,710
Speaker 2: This contamination.

1338
01:12:47,210 --> 01:12:50,470
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the vampire's invitation is a good point

1339
01:12:50,510 --> 01:12:53,450
Speaker 3: of comparison. So the way that usually works, the person

1340
01:12:53,490 --> 01:12:56,170
Speaker 3: doesn't have to know what they're getting into for the

1341
01:12:56,210 --> 01:12:59,010
Speaker 3: invitation to work, but the vampire can't just force their

1342
01:12:59,050 --> 01:13:03,870
Speaker 3: way in. Right. So as Carswell leaves, there's this eerie

1343
01:13:03,950 --> 01:13:06,950
Speaker 3: shot of him walking in. away in shadow down this

1344
01:13:07,110 --> 01:13:11,810
Speaker 3: dream shimmering hallway while a strange high-pitched melody begins to

1345
01:13:11,850 --> 01:13:15,440
Speaker 3: play over a like dissonant harp and woodwinds. It's a

1346
01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:16,320
Speaker 3: creepy moment.

1347
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:19,599
Speaker 2: Yeah. Shockingly, like I had to actually run the film

1348
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:22,519
Speaker 2: back cause I'm like, whoa, whoa, what is happening? And then, um,

1349
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:25,840
Speaker 2: and then immediately he's beginning to ask questions about, was

1350
01:13:25,880 --> 01:13:27,780
Speaker 2: he here at all? Was this an illusion?

1351
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:31,360
Speaker 3: And Holden wonders the same thing. Holden has been very

1352
01:13:31,460 --> 01:13:34,180
Speaker 3: stolid and very self-assured up to this point, but he's

1353
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:37,080
Speaker 3: a little shaken by the experience. When the librarian comes back,

1354
01:13:37,740 --> 01:13:39,980
Speaker 3: he asks him, did you just see that man I

1355
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:42,290
Speaker 3: was talking to? And the librarian did not. He's like,

1356
01:13:42,310 --> 01:13:45,809
Speaker 3: I'm afraid I didn't, sir. So one thing I was wondering,

1357
01:13:45,850 --> 01:13:50,450
Speaker 3: what do you think about this? Was Carswell always going

1358
01:13:50,510 --> 01:13:54,889
Speaker 3: to curse Holden in this scene? Or did he only

1359
01:13:54,930 --> 01:13:58,130
Speaker 3: give him the runes because Holden wouldn't budge on like

1360
01:13:58,170 --> 01:14:00,729
Speaker 3: calling off the investigation or coming up to visit him.

1361
01:14:01,950 --> 01:14:03,180
Speaker 2: I have a feeling he was always going to give

1362
01:14:03,220 --> 01:14:05,679
Speaker 2: him the runes because I think at this point he has,

1363
01:14:06,380 --> 01:14:09,220
Speaker 2: he has used the fire demon already to take out

1364
01:14:09,340 --> 01:14:14,660
Speaker 2: adversaries and is probably rather comfortable with it. Um, and,

1365
01:14:14,860 --> 01:14:16,810
Speaker 2: and if he is able to get an accurate measure

1366
01:14:16,850 --> 01:14:19,150
Speaker 2: of holding it all, I think he already knows the

1367
01:14:19,170 --> 01:14:20,190
Speaker 2: sky's not going to flip.

1368
01:14:20,590 --> 01:14:20,730
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1369
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:24,360
Speaker 3: I think that's probably right. So at the end of

1370
01:14:24,380 --> 01:14:26,910
Speaker 3: the meeting, oh, there's one more exchange. Carswell, before he leaves,

1371
01:14:26,950 --> 01:14:29,150
Speaker 3: he gives Holden his card, like, come visit me at

1372
01:14:29,189 --> 01:14:31,150
Speaker 3: Lufford Hall. And so he gives him a little card

1373
01:14:31,170 --> 01:14:35,050
Speaker 3: that says, Julian Carswell, Lufford Hall. But when he hands

1374
01:14:35,110 --> 01:14:39,380
Speaker 3: it to him, Holden realizes the card has silver handwriting

1375
01:14:39,479 --> 01:14:44,220
Speaker 3: on it, which says, in memoriam, Henry Harrington, allowed two weeks.

1376
01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:47,960
Speaker 3: But soon after this, the writing disappears from the card

1377
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:50,979
Speaker 3: and nobody else ever sees it. There's a little subplot

1378
01:14:51,020 --> 01:14:52,840
Speaker 3: in the middle of the movie where Holden takes this

1379
01:14:52,880 --> 01:14:55,860
Speaker 3: card to a chemistry lab to find traces of the writing,

1380
01:14:56,360 --> 01:15:00,150
Speaker 3: and the evidence can never be produced. So this chemist is,

1381
01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:03,070
Speaker 3: at some point, he's like, it's scientifically impossible there was

1382
01:15:03,110 --> 01:15:04,210
Speaker 3: ever writing on this card.

1383
01:15:04,229 --> 01:15:06,890
Speaker 2: Okay. If science says so, I believe it.

1384
01:15:07,370 --> 01:15:10,190
Speaker 3: Also after this, there is the scene where Holden stops

1385
01:15:10,290 --> 01:15:13,059
Speaker 3: off at Harrington's funeral to pay his respects. This scene

1386
01:15:13,100 --> 01:15:16,019
Speaker 3: was a little funny because it's a very quick stop. Like,

1387
01:15:16,060 --> 01:15:19,860
Speaker 3: he comes in still wearing his overcoat. carrying his briefcase,

1388
01:15:20,040 --> 01:15:22,300
Speaker 3: bops up to the coffin for two seconds and then

1389
01:15:22,340 --> 01:15:27,240
Speaker 3: walks away. But at the funeral, he runs into the

1390
01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:29,979
Speaker 3: annoying woman who was sitting behind him on the airplane.

1391
01:15:30,460 --> 01:15:32,920
Speaker 3: And this is the scene where they introduce themselves to

1392
01:15:32,960 --> 01:15:35,960
Speaker 3: each other. We learned that this is Joanna, that she

1393
01:15:35,979 --> 01:15:40,040
Speaker 3: was Harrington's niece. And Joanna has important business she wants

1394
01:15:40,080 --> 01:15:42,420
Speaker 3: to discuss with Holden. So they agree to meet later

1395
01:15:42,460 --> 01:15:45,760
Speaker 3: that night at his hotel room. There's a funny moment

1396
01:15:45,820 --> 01:15:49,070
Speaker 3: when she gets there and he answers the door. She says,

1397
01:15:49,310 --> 01:15:50,630
Speaker 3: so you really are Dr.

1398
01:15:50,670 --> 01:15:51,090
Speaker 2: Holden?

1399
01:15:51,590 --> 01:15:54,850
Speaker 3: And then he replies, all scientists don't wear thick glasses.

1400
01:15:54,910 --> 01:15:58,900
Speaker 3: I was like, what? That's a strange exchange. First of all,

1401
01:15:59,220 --> 01:16:01,880
Speaker 3: she says that she thought he might have been an imposter.

1402
01:16:01,939 --> 01:16:04,940
Speaker 3: What would that be about? I guess, well, now that

1403
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:07,900
Speaker 3: I think about it, I wonder if she was wondering

1404
01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:11,020
Speaker 3: if he was really a part of the Carswell cult

1405
01:16:11,100 --> 01:16:11,550
Speaker 3: or something.

1406
01:16:12,010 --> 01:16:13,210
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, possibly, yeah.

1407
01:16:13,810 --> 01:16:16,189
Speaker 3: And then his response is like, yeah, I'm hot. I'm

1408
01:16:16,229 --> 01:16:20,910
Speaker 3: good looking. So what? But they share some personal info.

1409
01:16:21,290 --> 01:16:23,370
Speaker 3: It's like, what was she so busy writing on the plane?

1410
01:16:23,430 --> 01:16:26,090
Speaker 3: Turns out she's a kindergarten teacher. She was writing notes

1411
01:16:26,130 --> 01:16:29,849
Speaker 3: to her students. He offers her a drink and she declines.

1412
01:16:29,930 --> 01:16:32,120
Speaker 3: And he's like, well, I'm going to have one because

1413
01:16:32,220 --> 01:16:34,920
Speaker 3: he needs it because it's a cold night. And she says,

1414
01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:37,140
Speaker 3: it's not cold. It's, in fact, quite hot.

1415
01:16:37,680 --> 01:16:37,840
Speaker 2: Hmm.

1416
01:16:38,140 --> 01:16:43,019
Speaker 3: What's that about? In this scene, there are... They're not...

1417
01:16:43,220 --> 01:16:45,800
Speaker 3: Not there yet, but there are early hints of romantic

1418
01:16:45,860 --> 01:16:47,939
Speaker 3: potential between them. It's not going to be surprising. This

1419
01:16:47,979 --> 01:16:49,660
Speaker 3: is a 50s movie. Of course, they're going to be

1420
01:16:49,680 --> 01:16:54,979
Speaker 3: an item. But a classic case of the horror movie

1421
01:16:55,020 --> 01:16:58,389
Speaker 3: syndrome of like, we're here to investigate the tragic death

1422
01:16:58,430 --> 01:17:00,889
Speaker 3: of a family member or friend. But also, yes, like

1423
01:17:01,010 --> 01:17:05,110
Speaker 3: romantic moves will be made regarding this hunk. See also

1424
01:17:05,170 --> 01:17:08,910
Speaker 3: Halloween 3 and other films like that. But what's this

1425
01:17:08,950 --> 01:17:12,720
Speaker 3: meeting really about? Well, Joanna has important information for Holden.

1426
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:15,180
Speaker 3: She thinks he's in great danger because of what she's

1427
01:17:15,240 --> 01:17:18,080
Speaker 3: read in her uncle's diary. There's a story in there

1428
01:17:18,180 --> 01:17:22,599
Speaker 3: that Harrington, he tells of how he met Julian Carswell

1429
01:17:22,640 --> 01:17:26,470
Speaker 3: at a concert, and despite their antagonistic relationship, he writes

1430
01:17:26,510 --> 01:17:29,689
Speaker 3: that Carswell was most pleasant to him in person. So

1431
01:17:29,729 --> 01:17:32,189
Speaker 3: he writes something like, you know, I lost my program

1432
01:17:32,229 --> 01:17:34,769
Speaker 3: at the concert, but because I collect them, Carswell was

1433
01:17:34,810 --> 01:17:36,170
Speaker 3: kind enough to give me his.

1434
01:17:36,189 --> 01:17:36,259
Speaker 1: Hmm.

1435
01:17:37,890 --> 01:17:40,650
Speaker 3: And then after this, of course, Harrington says he found,

1436
01:17:40,770 --> 01:17:44,300
Speaker 3: tucked inside the program, a parchment decorated with runic symbols.

1437
01:17:45,340 --> 01:17:48,640
Speaker 3: Holden is very dismissive. He's like, you know, runes, schmoons,

1438
01:17:48,740 --> 01:17:51,840
Speaker 3: they have no power. They're just letters. But after this,

1439
01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:55,500
Speaker 3: Harrington in the diary comes to believe he's under some

1440
01:17:55,540 --> 01:17:58,810
Speaker 3: kind of witch's spell. He feels cold when he shouldn't,

1441
01:17:58,990 --> 01:18:01,950
Speaker 3: just like Holden is now. And his mind is troubled

1442
01:18:01,990 --> 01:18:04,910
Speaker 3: with terrible visions, like Holden has been seeing visions and

1443
01:18:04,930 --> 01:18:08,360
Speaker 3: will continue to see some. Uh, but I, the last

1444
01:18:08,400 --> 01:18:10,960
Speaker 3: thing he says here is must speak to Holden about this.

1445
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:15,400
Speaker 3: And then Joanna adds, unfortunately you came too late. Uh,

1446
01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:19,400
Speaker 3: so Holden replies to this again, dismissively. He's like, you're

1447
01:18:19,439 --> 01:18:22,009
Speaker 3: trying to tell me your uncle was killed by witchcraft

1448
01:18:22,100 --> 01:18:24,650
Speaker 3: as a doctor. I can assure you you're wrong. It's

1449
01:18:24,710 --> 01:18:29,090
Speaker 3: a pure case of auto suggestion. And Joanna is not

1450
01:18:29,170 --> 01:18:31,770
Speaker 3: having it. She is like, no, you don't understand. Uh,

1451
01:18:32,350 --> 01:18:34,510
Speaker 3: one point, I think maybe not in this moment, but

1452
01:18:34,550 --> 01:18:37,370
Speaker 3: she says later, his death could not have been. Just

1453
01:18:37,430 --> 01:18:40,880
Speaker 3: a car accident falling on power lines. His body was mutilated.

1454
01:18:40,900 --> 01:18:43,519
Speaker 3: The police said it must have been by an animal.

1455
01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:46,689
Speaker 3: But think about that. Like, wait, an animal got him

1456
01:18:46,700 --> 01:18:49,480
Speaker 3: while he's still like cooking on the power lines. doesn't

1457
01:18:49,500 --> 01:18:52,300
Speaker 3: make a lot of sense so she's got she's got

1458
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:56,580
Speaker 3: a point there and she says she says please don't

1459
01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:58,580
Speaker 3: treat me like a mental patient who has to be

1460
01:18:58,640 --> 01:19:02,500
Speaker 3: humored I also majored in psychology you could learn a

1461
01:19:02,540 --> 01:19:05,060
Speaker 3: lot from children and they believe in things in the

1462
01:19:05,100 --> 01:19:07,889
Speaker 3: dark until we tell them it's not so maybe we've

1463
01:19:07,910 --> 01:19:11,770
Speaker 3: been fooling them Reminds me of the scene in Aliens. Like,

1464
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:14,679
Speaker 3: you know, the grownups always say that monsters aren't real,

1465
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:19,100
Speaker 3: but they are, aren't they? Yeah, good connection. But Joanna,

1466
01:19:19,600 --> 01:19:22,059
Speaker 3: at this point, she tells Holden off. She's mad that

1467
01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:24,560
Speaker 3: he doesn't seem to be open to investigating this with

1468
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:28,480
Speaker 3: all possibilities open. And he eventually relents. He tells her, OK, well,

1469
01:19:28,500 --> 01:19:31,100
Speaker 3: we can go visit Carswell at Lufford Hall the next

1470
01:19:31,150 --> 01:19:42,479
Speaker 3: day and see what they can turn up. So that's

1471
01:19:42,540 --> 01:19:44,680
Speaker 3: the first act. I think maybe now we'll shift to

1472
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:46,620
Speaker 3: giving a more general outline of the rest of the

1473
01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:49,930
Speaker 3: movie and pick some little things to focus on. But

1474
01:19:50,030 --> 01:19:52,970
Speaker 3: one thing I really do want to highlight is in

1475
01:19:53,270 --> 01:19:55,670
Speaker 3: the following scene where they go to visit Lufford Hall,

1476
01:19:56,030 --> 01:20:00,809
Speaker 3: the Carswell home. We alluded to this earlier, but when

1477
01:20:00,840 --> 01:20:05,120
Speaker 3: Holden and Joanna arrive, Carswell is there and he is

1478
01:20:05,240 --> 01:20:09,110
Speaker 3: in clown makeup. putting on a magic show as a

1479
01:20:09,189 --> 01:20:12,879
Speaker 3: halloween party for the local children of the nearby village

1480
01:20:13,310 --> 01:20:16,840
Speaker 3: so this devil cult leader is also kind of a

1481
01:20:17,860 --> 01:20:20,800
Speaker 3: he's doing kindnesses for the locals and even for the

1482
01:20:20,860 --> 01:20:24,640
Speaker 3: kids he's a local hero of support of sorts uh

1483
01:20:24,700 --> 01:20:26,680
Speaker 3: which kind of reminds me of these scenes in mob

1484
01:20:26,740 --> 01:20:29,160
Speaker 3: movies where like the mafia boss is giving people in

1485
01:20:29,180 --> 01:20:32,410
Speaker 3: the neighborhood turkeys at christmas it's like the idea of

1486
01:20:32,470 --> 01:20:36,070
Speaker 3: this guy who we will, who is very much a villain,

1487
01:20:36,130 --> 01:20:39,290
Speaker 3: who is a killer and a bad guy, but he's also,

1488
01:20:39,310 --> 01:20:43,309
Speaker 3: he loves giving out, uh, pleasure, you know, friend, friendliness and,

1489
01:20:43,470 --> 01:20:46,570
Speaker 3: and gifts and, and entertainment for the local children.

1490
01:20:46,600 --> 01:20:51,559
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good connection. Also, uh, they have

1491
01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:53,599
Speaker 2: more than a bit of the politician to him, the

1492
01:20:53,640 --> 01:20:56,560
Speaker 2: sort of like, you know, the, the, the putting on

1493
01:20:56,600 --> 01:20:59,660
Speaker 2: the act of the clown, uh, and to, to hide, uh,

1494
01:21:00,410 --> 01:21:03,880
Speaker 2: You know, more serious machinations. I am reminded a little

1495
01:21:03,900 --> 01:21:07,600
Speaker 2: bit of Boris Johnson here, for example. You know, not

1496
01:21:07,640 --> 01:21:10,080
Speaker 2: that Boris Johnson literally wore clown makeup, but much was

1497
01:21:10,140 --> 01:21:13,220
Speaker 2: often made of the way that he would keep his

1498
01:21:13,280 --> 01:21:16,970
Speaker 2: hair in sort of a sort of intentionally buffoonish fashion

1499
01:21:16,990 --> 01:21:20,170
Speaker 2: to sort of, you know, wear that as a kind

1500
01:21:20,189 --> 01:21:22,550
Speaker 2: of armor. And I think we get a similar thing

1501
01:21:22,590 --> 01:21:24,889
Speaker 2: here with Carswell. Yeah.

1502
01:21:25,330 --> 01:21:25,590
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1503
01:21:25,610 --> 01:21:28,660
Speaker 2: So there's a lot going on in this scene, though, because, yeah,

1504
01:21:28,900 --> 01:21:32,160
Speaker 2: in this whole sequence, initially with the clown makeup and

1505
01:21:32,220 --> 01:21:35,980
Speaker 2: entertaining the children but then this discussion between the two

1506
01:21:36,120 --> 01:21:39,640
Speaker 2: while again carswell is still dressed as a clown yes

1507
01:21:39,880 --> 01:21:43,060
Speaker 2: and then you know when he starts actively casting uh

1508
01:21:43,460 --> 01:21:46,540
Speaker 2: you know magical effects around him uh when he summons

1509
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:49,320
Speaker 2: a storm yes that is impressive.

1510
01:21:49,160 --> 01:21:52,790
Speaker 3: So he's having this confrontation with holden and he summons

1511
01:21:52,850 --> 01:21:55,210
Speaker 3: a great wind like a violent wind that comes in

1512
01:21:55,270 --> 01:21:57,910
Speaker 3: and shakes the trees and sends everybody running inside i

1513
01:21:57,930 --> 01:22:00,600
Speaker 3: wonder what we don't see, I think, what happens to

1514
01:22:00,620 --> 01:22:02,660
Speaker 3: the children who are outside for the magic show.

1515
01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:05,100
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they just kind of run for it.

1516
01:22:05,140 --> 01:22:06,820
Speaker 2: But do we see a lightning strike on the tree?

1517
01:22:06,880 --> 01:22:07,320
Speaker 2: Is that right?

1518
01:22:07,560 --> 01:22:08,420
Speaker 3: I think that's right.

1519
01:22:08,460 --> 01:22:11,330
Speaker 2: I can't remember if it's actually shown or it's merely implied,

1520
01:22:11,390 --> 01:22:15,330
Speaker 2: but it feels very real. It really does feel like

1521
01:22:15,390 --> 01:22:19,370
Speaker 2: someone's summoning the powers of nature. And it's interesting how

1522
01:22:19,410 --> 01:22:23,700
Speaker 2: this matches up with the demon effect, which is overtly supernatural.

1523
01:22:23,720 --> 01:22:27,189
Speaker 2: This You know, it looks like he's controlling the weather.

1524
01:22:27,710 --> 01:22:30,130
Speaker 2: But then again, it's the weather acting as the weather acts.

1525
01:22:30,170 --> 01:22:32,189
Speaker 2: So there is still wiggle room.

1526
01:22:32,270 --> 01:22:34,610
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

1527
01:22:34,689 --> 01:22:34,870
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1528
01:22:34,890 --> 01:22:37,010
Speaker 3: Like you said, yes. So they're leaving wiggle room for

1529
01:22:37,070 --> 01:22:40,310
Speaker 3: Holden to interpret. He does seem like Carswell says there's

1530
01:22:40,340 --> 01:22:42,120
Speaker 3: going to be a storm and then there is. But,

1531
01:22:42,460 --> 01:22:45,800
Speaker 3: you know, storms happen. Maybe he just got lucky. In

1532
01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:49,040
Speaker 3: this scene, Carswell finally tells Holden he is cursed, just

1533
01:22:49,100 --> 01:22:51,080
Speaker 3: like Harrington, and he says he's going to die in

1534
01:22:51,120 --> 01:22:53,700
Speaker 3: three days. So he gives him a countdown. The countdown

1535
01:22:53,760 --> 01:22:55,700
Speaker 3: to the death is a big part of the feeling

1536
01:22:55,760 --> 01:22:59,679
Speaker 3: of the rest of the movie. But again, it's interesting

1537
01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:03,680
Speaker 3: that he's still dressed as this hobo clown figure the

1538
01:23:03,740 --> 01:23:06,860
Speaker 3: whole scene while he's being threatening like this. He seems

1539
01:23:06,880 --> 01:23:08,240
Speaker 3: so jolly and harmless.

1540
01:23:08,260 --> 01:23:08,340
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1541
01:23:09,060 --> 01:23:11,040
Speaker 3: I guess another scene we should talk about is the

1542
01:23:11,080 --> 01:23:14,540
Speaker 3: discovery of the parchment. There's this scene with Holden and

1543
01:23:14,580 --> 01:23:19,059
Speaker 3: Joanna discussing their investigation next to a roaring fire. In

1544
01:23:19,080 --> 01:23:21,280
Speaker 3: this scene, Holden, I think, is also starting to get

1545
01:23:21,439 --> 01:23:26,549
Speaker 3: amorous with Joanna. But they discover the parchment that Carswell

1546
01:23:26,590 --> 01:23:31,050
Speaker 3: slipped into Holden's papers in the reading room. And then

1547
01:23:31,070 --> 01:23:33,950
Speaker 3: a gust of wind blows open a window or a door,

1548
01:23:34,010 --> 01:23:36,689
Speaker 3: I think, and the wind is blowing through the room.

1549
01:23:37,180 --> 01:23:39,600
Speaker 3: And we see the parchment blown by the wind. And

1550
01:23:39,640 --> 01:23:42,660
Speaker 3: it's like it is trying to escape into the fireplace,

1551
01:23:42,700 --> 01:23:45,479
Speaker 3: but it gets blocked by a fire screen. Something, a

1552
01:23:45,890 --> 01:23:49,330
Speaker 3: little thing we've talked about on the show before. So, Rob,

1553
01:23:49,370 --> 01:23:51,050
Speaker 3: I wonder if you read it the same way I did.

1554
01:23:51,110 --> 01:23:55,189
Speaker 3: It seems to me like the parchment is trying to self-destruct.

1555
01:23:56,070 --> 01:23:59,830
Speaker 3: Like Harrington mentioned that his parchment burned up when Carswell

1556
01:23:59,950 --> 01:24:02,590
Speaker 3: asked about it. Here, the parchment is trying to get

1557
01:24:02,650 --> 01:24:06,380
Speaker 3: into the fire. And I wonder if that's because... We

1558
01:24:06,420 --> 01:24:10,120
Speaker 3: will later learn that the only way that the curse

1559
01:24:10,160 --> 01:24:13,179
Speaker 3: can be undone is if Holden gives the parchment away

1560
01:24:13,220 --> 01:24:14,970
Speaker 3: to someone else, or maybe only if he gives it

1561
01:24:15,020 --> 01:24:17,450
Speaker 3: back to the person who gave it to him. And

1562
01:24:17,470 --> 01:24:20,330
Speaker 3: the parchment is trying to prevent that from happening by

1563
01:24:20,390 --> 01:24:21,330
Speaker 3: destroying itself.

1564
01:24:21,810 --> 01:24:25,090
Speaker 2: Yeah, it wants to destroy itself. Maybe on some level

1565
01:24:25,150 --> 01:24:28,960
Speaker 2: it helps solidify the ancient fire magic that's in play here.

1566
01:24:29,979 --> 01:24:31,979
Speaker 2: But it seems to have a life of its own.

1567
01:24:32,100 --> 01:24:33,969
Speaker 2: It's very much going to seek that fire out.

1568
01:24:34,880 --> 01:24:37,679
Speaker 3: There is a scene where Holden goes to Stonehenge, just

1569
01:24:37,740 --> 01:24:41,620
Speaker 3: walks around Stonehenge and looks at the rocks and he's like,

1570
01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:46,530
Speaker 3: oh yeah, yep, runes. They've got runes. I don't think

1571
01:24:46,590 --> 01:24:50,189
Speaker 3: the Stonehenge stones actually have runes carved in them. I

1572
01:24:50,570 --> 01:24:51,630
Speaker 3: think that was invented by them.

1573
01:24:51,950 --> 01:24:54,020
Speaker 2: I don't remember runes when I visited.

1574
01:24:55,160 --> 01:24:59,900
Speaker 3: There's also the scene of the meeting with Rand Hobart's family. Boy,

1575
01:24:59,939 --> 01:25:02,260
Speaker 3: they're a fun bunch, aren't they? He comes in and

1576
01:25:02,360 --> 01:25:05,960
Speaker 3: he's trying to get permission from them to examine Rand Hobart,

1577
01:25:06,200 --> 01:25:07,860
Speaker 3: I guess to get him taken out of the hospital

1578
01:25:07,920 --> 01:25:10,769
Speaker 3: so they can interview him. The people in this scene

1579
01:25:10,939 --> 01:25:16,530
Speaker 3: are very sour and unfriendly and standoffish. They do end

1580
01:25:16,570 --> 01:25:21,790
Speaker 3: up giving him permission to interview Hobart. But I was wondering...

1581
01:25:22,510 --> 01:25:25,849
Speaker 3: there's a little ambiguity here. They're, they're very condemning of their,

1582
01:25:25,990 --> 01:25:28,390
Speaker 3: their relative Rand Hobart. He's like, he's no longer one

1583
01:25:28,430 --> 01:25:30,849
Speaker 3: of us. He does not belong to the true faith.

1584
01:25:31,350 --> 01:25:33,820
Speaker 3: And at first it seemed to me like, Oh, they're

1585
01:25:33,860 --> 01:25:37,360
Speaker 3: condemning him because they're very devoutly religious people and they

1586
01:25:37,380 --> 01:25:39,940
Speaker 3: know he's part of the devil cult. So they're condemning him.

1587
01:25:39,979 --> 01:25:41,800
Speaker 3: But then at the end I was like, no, wait

1588
01:25:41,860 --> 01:25:45,240
Speaker 3: a minute. I think maybe they're all part of the

1589
01:25:45,280 --> 01:25:48,470
Speaker 3: devil cult and they think he betrayed them. Like he

1590
01:25:48,510 --> 01:25:49,370
Speaker 3: betrayed the cult.

1591
01:25:50,510 --> 01:25:55,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think you're right. Yeah. He is the outsider.

1592
01:25:55,560 --> 01:25:58,900
Speaker 3: Yeah. Because there's that weird symbol on the door when

1593
01:25:58,939 --> 01:25:59,840
Speaker 3: Holden goes out.

1594
01:26:00,920 --> 01:26:01,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1595
01:26:01,320 --> 01:26:02,520
Speaker 3: Any other thoughts on that scene?

1596
01:26:03,580 --> 01:26:05,240
Speaker 2: No, no. Let's move on to some of these others.

1597
01:26:05,680 --> 01:26:08,000
Speaker 2: We've got some real killer scenes coming up. Yeah, we

1598
01:26:08,020 --> 01:26:11,019
Speaker 2: have a seance. Always on board for a good seance picture.

1599
01:26:11,160 --> 01:26:15,010
Speaker 2: And this one doesn't go as wild as seances in

1600
01:26:15,030 --> 01:26:19,229
Speaker 2: other films, but it's still richly rewarding. And they're steadily

1601
01:26:19,410 --> 01:26:21,410
Speaker 2: amping up the supernatural element, so they don't want to

1602
01:26:21,430 --> 01:26:22,290
Speaker 2: give it all away just yet.

1603
01:26:22,770 --> 01:26:25,710
Speaker 3: So Joanna asks Holden to meet him at one point

1604
01:26:25,790 --> 01:26:29,730
Speaker 3: in the movie. He does. And then Joanna's like, well,

1605
01:26:30,330 --> 01:26:34,349
Speaker 3: Carswell's mother invited us here. And Holden's like, what? No,

1606
01:26:34,390 --> 01:26:37,370
Speaker 3: she's in on it. But Joanna, I think, believes Carswell's

1607
01:26:37,410 --> 01:26:40,050
Speaker 3: mother is trying to help them. She seems like a

1608
01:26:40,070 --> 01:26:42,950
Speaker 3: sweet old lady. And, you know, maybe she's a little

1609
01:26:43,150 --> 01:26:45,809
Speaker 3: iffy about what her son is into and she's trying

1610
01:26:45,850 --> 01:26:50,690
Speaker 3: to help out his potential victims. So Carswell's mother invites them.

1611
01:26:51,250 --> 01:26:55,060
Speaker 3: to this house and Holden is disgusted by the idea

1612
01:26:55,070 --> 01:26:57,280
Speaker 3: of a seance, obviously, but they have them sit by

1613
01:26:57,320 --> 01:27:01,240
Speaker 3: the window while the spirit medium holds hands with Carswell's

1614
01:27:01,300 --> 01:27:03,939
Speaker 3: mother and with his own wife. And they have to

1615
01:27:03,979 --> 01:27:06,830
Speaker 3: sing songs, I believe, like the spirits want music. So

1616
01:27:06,850 --> 01:27:13,090
Speaker 3: there is this horrible warbling dissonance singing. And the spirit

1617
01:27:13,130 --> 01:27:16,750
Speaker 3: medium starts to channel several different spirits, but eventually he

1618
01:27:16,900 --> 01:27:21,479
Speaker 3: does get Harrington to come into him. And Harrington, we

1619
01:27:21,520 --> 01:27:23,759
Speaker 3: of course hear from Harrington that thing that gets sampled

1620
01:27:23,800 --> 01:27:25,890
Speaker 3: in the Kate Bush song, look, it's in the trees,

1621
01:27:25,939 --> 01:27:30,190
Speaker 3: it's coming. But then they also learn that they need

1622
01:27:30,270 --> 01:27:32,330
Speaker 3: to find, is this where they learn they need to

1623
01:27:32,410 --> 01:27:36,450
Speaker 3: find Carswell's translation key to that book, The True Discovery

1624
01:27:36,470 --> 01:27:39,830
Speaker 3: of Witches and Demons, to understand the runes and solve

1625
01:27:39,870 --> 01:27:40,490
Speaker 3: the mystery.

1626
01:27:40,510 --> 01:27:43,009
Speaker 2: All right. So it sounds like we got a caper

1627
01:27:43,070 --> 01:27:43,790
Speaker 2: on our hands here.

1628
01:27:43,850 --> 01:27:46,830
Speaker 3: That's right. Well, we got to break into Carswell's mansion now. Now,

1629
01:27:46,870 --> 01:27:49,720
Speaker 3: I think once again, Holden does not want to do this,

1630
01:27:50,189 --> 01:27:52,280
Speaker 3: but he ends up doing it because Joanna says, well,

1631
01:27:52,320 --> 01:27:54,840
Speaker 3: I'm going to do it without you. And he's like, well,

1632
01:27:54,860 --> 01:27:56,380
Speaker 3: I can't let you do that. So I'm going to

1633
01:27:56,400 --> 01:27:58,540
Speaker 3: break in for you and I'll find this thing.

1634
01:27:59,260 --> 01:28:01,840
Speaker 2: And this is a great sequence. We were chatting a

1635
01:28:01,860 --> 01:28:05,400
Speaker 2: little bit about this the other day that this is

1636
01:28:05,460 --> 01:28:08,860
Speaker 2: a scene where even before anything remotely supernatural happens, just

1637
01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:12,630
Speaker 2: the way everything is shot and edited, it's just so

1638
01:28:12,710 --> 01:28:16,450
Speaker 2: creepy and so well presented. They really ratchet up the tension.

1639
01:28:17,050 --> 01:28:19,429
Speaker 3: So he cuts through the woods, you know, he doesn't

1640
01:28:19,470 --> 01:28:21,490
Speaker 3: go up the drive. He cuts through the woods to

1641
01:28:21,530 --> 01:28:24,530
Speaker 3: get to the house and the very creepy woods beautifully

1642
01:28:24,610 --> 01:28:28,560
Speaker 3: shot in the darkness and it's unsettling. And, uh, then

1643
01:28:28,580 --> 01:28:30,299
Speaker 3: when he goes into the house, he has to climb

1644
01:28:30,380 --> 01:28:33,000
Speaker 3: up the trellis and goes in through a second story

1645
01:28:33,060 --> 01:28:35,790
Speaker 3: window and then goes down the stairs. And there's this

1646
01:28:35,870 --> 01:28:38,450
Speaker 3: moment where behind him, he's going down the stairs and

1647
01:28:38,470 --> 01:28:41,930
Speaker 3: you see this hand on the bannister. I think later

1648
01:28:41,990 --> 01:28:44,710
Speaker 3: we will learn that that was just Carswell's hand. But

1649
01:28:45,100 --> 01:28:47,220
Speaker 3: for a moment I was like, whoa, there's an it

1650
01:28:47,340 --> 01:28:50,060
Speaker 3: in the house. It's just a disembodied hand. Yeah.

1651
01:28:50,100 --> 01:28:53,500
Speaker 2: Yeah. Or some sort of, you know, purely supernatural threat,

1652
01:28:53,540 --> 01:28:54,880
Speaker 2: but it's very intimidating.

1653
01:28:55,160 --> 01:28:55,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1654
01:28:55,930 --> 01:28:59,510
Speaker 3: He also is attacked in Carswell. So like he does

1655
01:28:59,930 --> 01:29:01,970
Speaker 3: find a text and he's looking at it, but some

1656
01:29:02,010 --> 01:29:04,930
Speaker 3: pages are removed. And then when he's there in the study,

1657
01:29:05,290 --> 01:29:07,690
Speaker 3: he gets attacked by a jaguar, it seems.

1658
01:29:07,750 --> 01:29:11,299
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a house cat. And then this house cat

1659
01:29:11,310 --> 01:29:13,560
Speaker 2: appears to be more than it seems. We're going to

1660
01:29:13,600 --> 01:29:16,700
Speaker 2: learn that it is a minor protective demon of Carswell's.

1661
01:29:17,060 --> 01:29:21,100
Speaker 2: It morphs into some sort of a jaguar. And then again,

1662
01:29:21,650 --> 01:29:23,589
Speaker 2: The effects in this movie are on the whole tremendous,

1663
01:29:23,630 --> 01:29:25,290
Speaker 2: but we do get a sequence where.

1664
01:29:25,370 --> 01:29:26,490
Speaker 3: This is not one of the best.

1665
01:29:26,510 --> 01:29:28,590
Speaker 2: This is not one of the best. Our hero is

1666
01:29:28,650 --> 01:29:31,330
Speaker 2: going to fight some sort of a stuffed animal here

1667
01:29:31,350 --> 01:29:37,150
Speaker 2: for a little bit. And it's not especially believable, but

1668
01:29:37,189 --> 01:29:38,790
Speaker 2: it doesn't take up too much time either.

1669
01:29:39,490 --> 01:29:42,250
Speaker 3: But he is confronted by Carswell here, who again is

1670
01:29:42,290 --> 01:29:44,550
Speaker 3: rather jolly about him breaking into his house.

1671
01:29:44,570 --> 01:29:46,270
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, you broke into my house, old sport.

1672
01:29:47,550 --> 01:29:48,030
Speaker 2: Fair enough.

1673
01:29:48,430 --> 01:29:50,310
Speaker 3: That was a minor demon that attacked you, yeah.

1674
01:29:50,380 --> 01:29:50,520
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

1675
01:29:51,120 --> 01:29:54,400
Speaker 3: Um, so Holden then leaves the house. Uh, he is, uh,

1676
01:29:55,580 --> 01:29:57,809
Speaker 3: Carswell offers to have him leave out the front, but

1677
01:29:57,820 --> 01:29:59,450
Speaker 3: he says, I always like to go back the way

1678
01:29:59,510 --> 01:30:01,050
Speaker 3: I came. So he's going to go back through the

1679
01:30:01,090 --> 01:30:04,450
Speaker 3: woods and whoa, what a creepy sequence this is. Yeah.

1680
01:30:04,550 --> 01:30:07,490
Speaker 2: Because, um, cause there is something after him and I

1681
01:30:07,510 --> 01:30:08,950
Speaker 2: think we all know what it's going to be.

1682
01:30:09,410 --> 01:30:12,360
Speaker 3: It's, it's, it's his first real glimpse of the demon. Uh,

1683
01:30:13,100 --> 01:30:15,740
Speaker 3: now we don't see it in, in, in its bodily

1684
01:30:15,800 --> 01:30:18,460
Speaker 3: form like we did earlier in the scene. Instead, we,

1685
01:30:19,189 --> 01:30:22,510
Speaker 3: There's wind blowing and there's that shimmering in the dark

1686
01:30:22,570 --> 01:30:25,750
Speaker 3: and there's a mist coming through the air. And then

1687
01:30:25,790 --> 01:30:30,530
Speaker 3: we see this great part where there are footsteps steaming

1688
01:30:30,570 --> 01:30:33,229
Speaker 3: in the mud. We don't see what's leaving them, but

1689
01:30:33,270 --> 01:30:36,479
Speaker 3: just an invisible entity leaving these footsteps in the mud

1690
01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:39,540
Speaker 3: and steam rises off. It's awesome.

1691
01:30:39,680 --> 01:30:43,460
Speaker 2: Now, we actually get a reading from The Rime of

1692
01:30:43,479 --> 01:30:46,790
Speaker 2: the Ancient Mariner in this film. Oh, yeah. And I

1693
01:30:46,810 --> 01:30:48,129
Speaker 2: forget where it actually falls.

1694
01:30:48,150 --> 01:30:50,229
Speaker 3: Oh, you're right. I forget where that is.

1695
01:30:50,490 --> 01:30:53,140
Speaker 2: Like one that on a lonesome road don't walk in

1696
01:30:53,220 --> 01:30:56,780
Speaker 2: fear and dread. We get that line here. And in fact,

1697
01:30:57,020 --> 01:31:02,460
Speaker 2: another musical reference, there's a great... There's a recording artist

1698
01:31:02,520 --> 01:31:05,660
Speaker 2: by the name of Depth Charge that did songs like

1699
01:31:05,720 --> 01:31:08,990
Speaker 2: Nine Deadly Venoms and so forth and put in a

1700
01:31:09,030 --> 01:31:11,590
Speaker 2: lot of cool movie samples. And his... I think it's

1701
01:31:11,630 --> 01:31:15,760
Speaker 2: Dead by Dawn that includes... the, the sample from Rhyme

1702
01:31:15,780 --> 01:31:19,320
Speaker 2: of the Ancient Mariner. And I did not realize that

1703
01:31:19,400 --> 01:31:22,080
Speaker 2: it is a sample from this movie until I watched

1704
01:31:22,120 --> 01:31:25,950
Speaker 2: this movie. So yet another musical connection, uh, for, uh,

1705
01:31:26,090 --> 01:31:28,930
Speaker 2: Night of the Demon. Uh, but, but very much that's

1706
01:31:28,970 --> 01:31:31,650
Speaker 2: the case here. There is something, uh, dreadful that is

1707
01:31:31,710 --> 01:31:33,689
Speaker 2: creeping up on him and we can't see it yet.

1708
01:31:33,729 --> 01:31:36,530
Speaker 2: It like hasn't taken full physical form. If physical form,

1709
01:31:36,590 --> 01:31:37,150
Speaker 2: it really is.

1710
01:31:37,610 --> 01:31:38,229
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

1711
01:31:38,250 --> 01:31:38,430
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1712
01:31:38,490 --> 01:31:41,189
Speaker 3: And so this part of the movie, very, very strong,

1713
01:31:41,310 --> 01:31:45,170
Speaker 3: really good. Um, Now there's another part we should talk about,

1714
01:31:45,210 --> 01:31:48,849
Speaker 3: which is at the parapsychology conference, they organize a public

1715
01:31:48,930 --> 01:31:51,970
Speaker 3: interview of Rand Hobart, the guy, the guy from the

1716
01:31:52,010 --> 01:31:55,559
Speaker 3: devil cult. So they put him under hypnosis and they

1717
01:31:55,580 --> 01:31:58,880
Speaker 3: get him talking. And I think this guy, he reveals

1718
01:31:58,900 --> 01:32:01,380
Speaker 3: how the parchment works, I believe. Like he says, he's

1719
01:32:01,420 --> 01:32:03,439
Speaker 3: the guy who explains that you can only escape the

1720
01:32:03,479 --> 01:32:05,760
Speaker 3: curse by giving the parchment back to the person who

1721
01:32:05,780 --> 01:32:08,519
Speaker 3: gave it to you. And then this guy ends up

1722
01:32:08,560 --> 01:32:11,800
Speaker 3: jumping out a window, doesn't he? He's terrified by seeing

1723
01:32:11,840 --> 01:32:12,730
Speaker 3: the parchment, I think.

1724
01:32:13,050 --> 01:32:16,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the manic performance I was referencing earlier. Yeah,

1725
01:32:16,689 --> 01:32:19,220
Speaker 2: he just freaks out, leaps out of a window to

1726
01:32:19,240 --> 01:32:22,920
Speaker 2: his death. Which, again, is another nice, fittingly noir kind

1727
01:32:22,960 --> 01:32:26,179
Speaker 2: of a moment here. You track down this key witness

1728
01:32:26,200 --> 01:32:27,340
Speaker 2: and now that key witness is dead.

1729
01:32:27,660 --> 01:32:31,360
Speaker 3: I mean, this scene feels like a crime noir film

1730
01:32:31,580 --> 01:32:34,640
Speaker 3: police interrogation scene because it's got an isolated light in

1731
01:32:34,680 --> 01:32:38,650
Speaker 3: this dark room and the hypnosis and the questions. And

1732
01:32:38,710 --> 01:32:40,910
Speaker 3: the witness is terrified here, but for different reasons.

1733
01:32:40,990 --> 01:32:43,290
Speaker 2: Very much, they're carrying themselves like they're police officers when

1734
01:32:43,310 --> 01:32:45,410
Speaker 2: they're just academics.

1735
01:32:54,439 --> 01:32:57,000
Speaker 3: So this all leads up to the final confrontation, the

1736
01:32:57,020 --> 01:32:59,759
Speaker 3: climax of the movie, which again, I think is very good.

1737
01:33:00,620 --> 01:33:04,390
Speaker 3: Holden learns that Carswell is, that he has to give

1738
01:33:04,430 --> 01:33:08,720
Speaker 3: the parchment back to Carswell. But Carswell is fleeing by train.

1739
01:33:08,810 --> 01:33:11,059
Speaker 3: He's on the train to Southampton. Does he learn from

1740
01:33:11,100 --> 01:33:12,280
Speaker 3: Carswell's mother, I think?

1741
01:33:12,500 --> 01:33:13,480
Speaker 2: I think so, yeah.

1742
01:33:14,040 --> 01:33:16,519
Speaker 3: And also learns that he has Joanna with him, that

1743
01:33:16,580 --> 01:33:19,500
Speaker 3: he has hypnotized her and taken her along with him.

1744
01:33:19,520 --> 01:33:21,420
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's a race to get on the same

1745
01:33:21,500 --> 01:33:24,020
Speaker 2: train with him and a lot of great train shots,

1746
01:33:24,060 --> 01:33:29,030
Speaker 2: a lot of great onboard train sequences. Again, just great

1747
01:33:29,510 --> 01:33:30,990
Speaker 2: noir elements here as well.

1748
01:33:31,570 --> 01:33:34,790
Speaker 3: But in this final confrontation, the tables have really turned.

1749
01:33:35,010 --> 01:33:39,150
Speaker 3: Now Carswell is terrified of Holden. And at first, we're

1750
01:33:39,170 --> 01:33:41,470
Speaker 3: not quite sure, I think, exactly what's going on. But

1751
01:33:41,510 --> 01:33:44,370
Speaker 3: it's like, oh, he doesn't want to be anywhere near

1752
01:33:44,430 --> 01:33:46,570
Speaker 3: Holden when the demon shows up. And he knows it's

1753
01:33:46,640 --> 01:33:50,179
Speaker 3: about to happen. It's like the time is drawing nigh.

1754
01:33:50,200 --> 01:33:53,000
Speaker 3: It's about to strike 10 p.m. when the demon is

1755
01:33:53,060 --> 01:33:57,420
Speaker 3: coming for Holden. And so he's in this scene where

1756
01:33:57,460 --> 01:34:00,900
Speaker 3: Holden confronts him in his train car. And Holden keeps

1757
01:34:01,100 --> 01:34:05,120
Speaker 3: offering to hand things to Carswell, and Carswell won't take anything.

1758
01:34:05,140 --> 01:34:06,840
Speaker 3: He's like, no, no, no, I'm quite all right.

1759
01:34:07,080 --> 01:34:12,019
Speaker 2: Yeah, politely saying no at first, but then becoming more

1760
01:34:12,060 --> 01:34:16,480
Speaker 2: and more frantic about it because it's clear what he's

1761
01:34:16,520 --> 01:34:20,650
Speaker 2: trying to do. And he's running out of good excuses

1762
01:34:20,700 --> 01:34:23,929
Speaker 2: for it. But again, the runes can't just be forced

1763
01:34:24,010 --> 01:34:27,410
Speaker 2: on someone. They have to, on some level, take it willingly.

1764
01:34:28,460 --> 01:34:30,900
Speaker 3: So the great twist comes when I think Carswell ends

1765
01:34:30,960 --> 01:34:34,000
Speaker 3: up enlisting the police or the train guard, some kind

1766
01:34:34,020 --> 01:34:37,269
Speaker 3: of authority figure shows up and Carswell is like, get

1767
01:34:37,310 --> 01:34:39,250
Speaker 3: me out of here. You know, he's, he's asking for

1768
01:34:39,310 --> 01:34:43,090
Speaker 3: help getting away from Holden basically. But at one point

1769
01:34:43,110 --> 01:34:45,790
Speaker 3: he's gathering his things to get out of the train

1770
01:34:45,830 --> 01:34:48,810
Speaker 3: car and he has handed his coat and he takes

1771
01:34:48,880 --> 01:34:51,940
Speaker 3: his coat and he realizes Holden has gotten to the

1772
01:34:51,979 --> 01:34:54,420
Speaker 3: coat first and has put the runes in the pocket.

1773
01:34:55,260 --> 01:34:59,470
Speaker 3: And so now Carswell is doomed. The terror fills him,

1774
01:35:00,050 --> 01:35:02,550
Speaker 3: and he escapes the train out onto the tracks.

1775
01:35:03,010 --> 01:35:05,290
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's chasing the little scrap of runes.

1776
01:35:05,330 --> 01:35:07,250
Speaker 3: Yes, it blows away, yeah.

1777
01:35:07,810 --> 01:35:12,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, seeking fire, seeking immolation. And man, this whole final

1778
01:35:12,660 --> 01:35:16,340
Speaker 2: sequence here is tremendous because, again, it's night, splendid use

1779
01:35:16,380 --> 01:35:19,720
Speaker 2: of darkness. We're on the train tracks, and as he's

1780
01:35:19,780 --> 01:35:22,290
Speaker 2: chasing down this little scrap, we end up with, with

1781
01:35:22,330 --> 01:35:25,370
Speaker 2: the situation where in one direction we have an oncoming

1782
01:35:25,430 --> 01:35:28,960
Speaker 2: train barreling down. And then in the other direction, that

1783
01:35:29,020 --> 01:35:31,799
Speaker 2: strange light in the clouds is coming and it's taking

1784
01:35:31,880 --> 01:35:34,420
Speaker 2: on the form of the fire demon. And so it's

1785
01:35:34,439 --> 01:35:37,780
Speaker 2: like this weird sequence where we have these, you know,

1786
01:35:37,820 --> 01:35:41,300
Speaker 2: these two different forces coming at each other. One, human technology,

1787
01:35:41,660 --> 01:35:45,250
Speaker 2: but also something that is potentially devastating and fatal, you know,

1788
01:35:45,370 --> 01:35:48,210
Speaker 2: if you're on the tracks. And then on the other

1789
01:35:48,250 --> 01:35:51,190
Speaker 2: direction with this supernatural light taking on the form of

1790
01:35:51,229 --> 01:35:55,680
Speaker 2: this Horrible monstrous shape and and he's caught in the middle.

1791
01:35:55,880 --> 01:35:58,790
Speaker 2: So nothing good is gonna become of this collision.

1792
01:35:59,060 --> 01:36:01,290
Speaker 3: So in the version of the movie we have it

1793
01:36:01,350 --> 01:36:03,510
Speaker 3: is quite explicit that the demon kills him We see

1794
01:36:03,530 --> 01:36:06,189
Speaker 3: the demon lift him into the air and it's implied

1795
01:36:06,250 --> 01:36:08,130
Speaker 3: kind of like ripping him apart So.

1796
01:36:08,050 --> 01:36:10,910
Speaker 2: Yeah, really kaiju like in its immensity huge.

1797
01:36:11,090 --> 01:36:13,629
Speaker 3: I had the same thought. It's like Godzilla. It's huge

1798
01:36:13,710 --> 01:36:18,040
Speaker 3: and it just destroys him but then there's the implication

1799
01:36:18,140 --> 01:36:20,580
Speaker 3: of the other way this movie could have been because he's,

1800
01:36:20,720 --> 01:36:22,969
Speaker 3: his body is dropped on the tracks as the train

1801
01:36:23,020 --> 01:36:26,170
Speaker 3: is rushing by. And then after the train passes, you

1802
01:36:26,210 --> 01:36:28,850
Speaker 3: see all these railroad workers run up to him and

1803
01:36:28,870 --> 01:36:31,570
Speaker 3: they're like, Oh, he's dead. They think he was hit

1804
01:36:31,650 --> 01:36:35,110
Speaker 3: and dragged by the train. Uh, so once again, it

1805
01:36:35,170 --> 01:36:39,550
Speaker 3: seems like, uh, it it's this attack by the demon

1806
01:36:39,610 --> 01:36:43,410
Speaker 3: could always be taken as some kind of accident. Yeah.

1807
01:36:43,570 --> 01:36:43,790
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1808
01:36:44,780 --> 01:36:46,980
Speaker 2: And we get this final little bit here, which I

1809
01:36:47,040 --> 01:36:49,479
Speaker 2: really quite loved. And again, this is another thing that

1810
01:36:49,560 --> 01:36:52,090
Speaker 2: kind of plays better if we didn't see the demon

1811
01:36:52,130 --> 01:36:55,150
Speaker 2: so much. But Holden wants to go over and look

1812
01:36:55,189 --> 01:36:57,110
Speaker 2: at the body, like to see, like, is this the

1813
01:36:57,150 --> 01:36:58,550
Speaker 2: body of a man who's been hit by a train?

1814
01:36:58,610 --> 01:36:59,970
Speaker 2: Or is this the body of a man who's been

1815
01:37:00,070 --> 01:37:03,230
Speaker 2: killed by a demon, by a fire demon? And is

1816
01:37:03,270 --> 01:37:07,190
Speaker 2: it Joanna that tells him, maybe you don't want to look?

1817
01:37:07,450 --> 01:37:08,570
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, maybe, yeah.

1818
01:37:08,990 --> 01:37:13,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's basically the idea, his impulse is to

1819
01:37:13,280 --> 01:37:16,600
Speaker 2: go and look. And see the thing and know for

1820
01:37:16,700 --> 01:37:20,710
Speaker 2: sure if this is a supernatural event or a natural

1821
01:37:20,750 --> 01:37:24,070
Speaker 2: world event. But he is convinced that it's maybe better

1822
01:37:24,110 --> 01:37:27,189
Speaker 2: not to know. Like nothing good can come of the certainty.

1823
01:37:27,710 --> 01:37:30,470
Speaker 2: And he agrees and he decides, you know, I'm not

1824
01:37:30,510 --> 01:37:31,750
Speaker 2: going to go look. I'm not going to go look

1825
01:37:31,770 --> 01:37:35,290
Speaker 2: at that body and know for sure if it is

1826
01:37:35,330 --> 01:37:37,720
Speaker 2: a demon or just a train accident.

1827
01:37:38,420 --> 01:37:40,479
Speaker 3: At the end, she kind of understands him better than

1828
01:37:40,560 --> 01:37:44,660
Speaker 3: he does. Yeah. Well, anyway, that's all I've got on

1829
01:37:44,720 --> 01:37:46,240
Speaker 3: Night of the Demon, but I thought this one was

1830
01:37:46,320 --> 01:37:49,870
Speaker 3: very strong, very happy to add it to my roster

1831
01:37:49,890 --> 01:37:53,210
Speaker 3: of Rocky Erickson movies. So it's up there, of course,

1832
01:37:53,310 --> 01:37:55,990
Speaker 3: with Creature with the Atom Brain, with I Walked with

1833
01:37:56,070 --> 01:37:58,590
Speaker 3: a Zombie. You know, one we haven't done yet, but

1834
01:37:58,610 --> 01:38:01,110
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure inspired a song on the evil one

1835
01:38:01,130 --> 01:38:05,260
Speaker 3: is the film The Alligator People, which inspired It's a

1836
01:38:05,280 --> 01:38:08,260
Speaker 3: Cold Night for Alligators, or I have to assume inspired it.

1837
01:38:08,460 --> 01:38:10,360
Speaker 3: I can't be as positive about that one.

1838
01:38:11,479 --> 01:38:14,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's my loose understanding that that song is based

1839
01:38:14,680 --> 01:38:16,700
Speaker 2: on that movie. And it's one of the reasons that I, too,

1840
01:38:16,720 --> 01:38:20,240
Speaker 2: would like to check that movie out at some point. Also,

1841
01:38:20,270 --> 01:38:22,110
Speaker 2: you know, next time we want a good Swamp movie,

1842
01:38:22,330 --> 01:38:23,710
Speaker 2: that's probably one to check out.

1843
01:38:24,010 --> 01:38:27,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. But yeah, Night of the Demon, two big Claude

1844
01:38:27,740 --> 01:38:31,500
Speaker 3: thumbs up from me. Claude, not the name Claude, the

1845
01:38:31,800 --> 01:38:32,880
Speaker 3: claws on the thumb.

1846
01:38:33,340 --> 01:38:35,940
Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, yeah. This demon's got some claws for sure.

1847
01:38:36,820 --> 01:38:37,260
Speaker 3: All right.

1848
01:38:37,300 --> 01:38:41,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, highly recommend this one. And really enjoyed

1849
01:38:41,150 --> 01:38:43,650
Speaker 2: all the various musical connections in this one, really more

1850
01:38:43,710 --> 01:38:46,270
Speaker 2: than I expected going into it. I knew there would

1851
01:38:46,290 --> 01:38:48,010
Speaker 2: be two. I didn't know there would be four plus.

1852
01:38:48,550 --> 01:38:49,550
Speaker 3: So there we go.

1853
01:38:51,140 --> 01:38:52,700
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we'd love to hear from all of you

1854
01:38:52,740 --> 01:38:56,680
Speaker 2: out there. If you have thoughts about this rather influential film,

1855
01:38:57,100 --> 01:38:58,960
Speaker 2: we would love to hear from you. Just a reminder

1856
01:38:58,979 --> 01:39:00,660
Speaker 2: that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science

1857
01:39:00,720 --> 01:39:03,360
Speaker 2: and culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays,

1858
01:39:04,240 --> 01:39:06,260
Speaker 2: short form on Wednesday, and then on Fridays we set

1859
01:39:06,300 --> 01:39:08,480
Speaker 2: aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird

1860
01:39:08,520 --> 01:39:12,020
Speaker 2: film here on Weird House Cinema. If you're on Letterboxd.com,

1861
01:39:12,060 --> 01:39:13,940
Speaker 2: look us up. We are Weird House on there. We

1862
01:39:13,960 --> 01:39:15,540
Speaker 2: have a nice list of all the movies we've covered

1863
01:39:15,560 --> 01:39:18,300
Speaker 2: over the years and sometimes a peek ahead. at what

1864
01:39:18,360 --> 01:39:21,400
Speaker 2: comes next, like, you know, like over 250 films that

1865
01:39:21,439 --> 01:39:24,120
Speaker 2: we've covered at this point. Uh, so you can find

1866
01:39:24,200 --> 01:39:28,330
Speaker 2: those episodes wherever you get your audio podcasts, find them

1867
01:39:28,350 --> 01:39:31,650
Speaker 2: in the archive there. And, uh, for newer episodes, uh,

1868
01:39:31,710 --> 01:39:33,850
Speaker 2: you of course can head on over to Netflix and

1869
01:39:33,870 --> 01:39:36,230
Speaker 2: you can watch the show as well as listen to

1870
01:39:36,290 --> 01:39:38,150
Speaker 2: it wherever you get the show. We just ask that

1871
01:39:38,170 --> 01:39:40,769
Speaker 2: you rate, review and subscribe. If you're watching on Netflix,

1872
01:39:41,010 --> 01:39:42,550
Speaker 2: give us a couple of thumbs up and ask to

1873
01:39:42,590 --> 01:39:44,850
Speaker 2: be reminded about new episodes, please.

1874
01:39:45,630 --> 01:39:49,170
Speaker 3: Uh, Huge thanks, as always, to our excellent audio producer,

1875
01:39:49,210 --> 01:39:51,650
Speaker 3: JJ Posway. If you would like to get in touch

1876
01:39:51,670 --> 01:39:53,650
Speaker 3: with us with feedback on this episode or any other,

1877
01:39:53,770 --> 01:39:55,750
Speaker 3: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to

1878
01:39:55,790 --> 01:39:59,689
Speaker 3: say hello, you can email us at contact at stufftoblowyourmind.com.

1879
01:40:06,540 --> 01:40:09,000
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeartRadio.

1880
01:40:09,340 --> 01:40:12,689
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1881
01:40:12,700 --> 01:40:15,050
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