1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Cable news is ripping us apart, dividing the nation, making 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: it impossible to function as a society and to know 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: what is true and what is false. The good news 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: is that they're failing and they know it. That is 5 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: why we're building something new. Be part of creating a new, better, healthier, 6 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: and more trustworthy mainstream by becoming a Breaking Points Premium 7 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: member today at breakingpoints dot com. Your hard earned money 8 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: is going to help us build for the midterms and 9 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: the upcoming presidential election so we can provide unparalleled coverage 10 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: of what is sure to be one of the most 11 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: pivotal moments in American history. So what are you waiting for? 12 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: Go to Breakingpoints dot com to help us out. We 13 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: are going to get started here. It's a fun special 14 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: edition of Breaking Points Live here from New York City. 15 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: Special thank you to WATF Media and Alex who some 16 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: of you might know from Andrew Schultz's podcast for hooking 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: this up. We don't usually do this, as you can tell, 18 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 1: but this is going to be a lot of fun. 19 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: So we're going to start, I think, with the news 20 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: and then as a preview for the premium subscribers, You 21 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: guys programmed the show and Crystal frankly shocked. Yeah, so 22 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: we get substantive responses. We gave you to be honest, Yeah, so, 23 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: I mean, we gave you all a bunch of options 24 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: for premium subscribers that you could vote on. How many 25 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: votes did we end up getting were trying seven thousand? Yeah, 26 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: which is awesome. Thank you for voting. But also, you 27 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: guys like basically gave us homework because we put a 28 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: bunch of super e like you know, sort of political 29 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 1: hot topics like let's spend a few minutes bash in 30 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: the media, like talking about Trump. No, you literally went 31 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: for the most wonky substantive topics that you possibly could 32 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: of the entire list. So what you all voted for 33 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: is housing policy, healthcare, geopolitical realignment, energy policy, and the 34 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: future of labor. And we're probably gonna throw in some 35 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: Ama there at the end and start with a little 36 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: news of the day. But I guess I shouldn't be 37 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: surprised because we've seen before that the substantive content is 38 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: very appreciated, although I will say that's not always what 39 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: people click on on YouTube, that's right, But I do 40 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: think our premium subscribers are a little bit of a 41 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: different ilk. So thank you to everybody who voted. We're 42 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: excited to dig into these topics because these are some 43 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: of our favorite things to talk about. Yeah, it's amazing. 44 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: It's funny too, just because being here in New York, 45 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: it actually just feels even more. It just feels so 46 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 1: salient the fact that we're talking about housing. But let's 47 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,239 Speaker 1: start with Twitter. Obviously, news broke this morning. I was 48 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: scrolling my phone at like six am, and everybody's freaking out. 49 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: Eulon musk. Okay, he's put in an offer fifty two 50 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: dollars a share forty one billion. Wait, fifty four dollars 51 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: and twenty cents. Is it at the forty twenty dollars? 52 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, all right, fact checked fifty four dollars in 53 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: per share, a total of forty one billion dollars. So 54 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: what he writes in his prospectus, which he had to 55 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: file with the SEC is he's very clear about his 56 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: ultimate aim. He doesn't say anything about business. He doesn't 57 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: talk about the company being run in a way that 58 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: he doesn't particularly like. What he says is that this 59 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 1: is all about free speech. He says in the opening 60 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: line of his letter, I believe free speech is vital 61 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: to a democracy. So it's an interesting takeover that he's 62 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: doing there. And Marshall, I'm curious for your view here 63 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: on what exactly this means by Elon because traditional past 64 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: shareholder activism has to do with I think this company 65 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: is being badly run. This is not about that. This 66 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: is I think that this company is not, you know, 67 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: abiding by content moderation standards that I think are important. 68 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: So what do you think? And then we'll get everybody 69 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: else in here. Yeah, just real quick, super pumped to 70 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: be here. Usually this involves a expensive train ride and 71 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: hotel or your couch. It's just yeah, so this is 72 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: this is this is awesome. That's why I'm not wearing 73 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: a tie rebellion. No, So here's a we were talking 74 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: about this this morning. We should think of this more 75 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: as Ewon Musk buying a newspaper than Elon Musk buying 76 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: a big tech company. So with Jeff Bezos twenty thirteen, Yeah, 77 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: I love it. Billionaires by newspapers. This is a long tradition, 78 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: Like rich people will buy a company a product, not 79 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: because they think it's going to throw off all this cash, 80 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: but like they believe in the idea behind it. That's 81 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: what Jeff Bezos does with the post. He's like, well, Quike, 82 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: there's obviously some tech things I could do here, but 83 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 1: let's get real. I believe in a certain ideology, broadly 84 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: like center left, like democratic politics. I think this has 85 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 1: a long legacy within that side of politics, so I 86 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: want to make it survive. Ewon Musk. He's not coming 87 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: in the way Paul Singer came in last year, where 88 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: it's like, look, Jack Dorsey love Jack. I think we 89 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: all like Jack shouldn't be CEO's of two companies. It's 90 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 1: kind of crazy. Let's forget the edit button jokes for 91 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: a second. It's kind of crazy about this company has 92 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: not shipped new products in the past three years, that 93 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: Twitter is the same fundamentalweets as Ben since twenty fifteen. 94 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: I don't when the final part, and this number is 95 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: crazy to me. Twitter only made three hundred and fifty 96 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: million dollars in profit the past two years, so it's 97 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: kind of like wild, how disproportionate how big this company 98 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: is relative to how little money it actually makes. Can 99 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 1: I have an unpopular opinion. I wonder if you guys 100 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: what you guys think, But I actually don't want that 101 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: edit button. I kind of like I hate the button. Yeah, 102 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 1: I like that. First of all. I like that people 103 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: show that they're humans and they make mistakes and like 104 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: autocorrect and they say stupid shit and it's kind of 105 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: funny and you just have it there, but also gets 106 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: confusing if people like delete it and they're able to 107 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: parse it. And I like that it's just there and 108 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: that's it and you can't edit it. I would like 109 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: it if you delete a tweet and then it's actually deleted, 110 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: because usually what happens is like you'll see it on 111 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 1: your feed, press it, yeah, we deleted if you just 112 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: And I don't even delete tweets often, but it's one 113 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: of those things where it's like, at least make it 114 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: so that it actually works if you delete. We'll get 115 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: to that, Kyle, should you delete tweets because I think 116 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: I think I think deleting a tweets you're talking to 117 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: the guy I am like, he's the purest, weirdly most 118 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: principled man on this. I have tweets up there. If 119 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: I ever stop doing what I'm doing now, I will 120 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: never be able to get a job again. No, seriously, 121 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: because I used to go in I'd be like high 122 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: on percoset at the selling cars, just like firing out tweets, 123 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: and the next thing, you know, somehow my show takes 124 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: off and everybody's like tweeting back everything I said back 125 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: in twenty eleven, and I'm like, you know what, whatever 126 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: I said it, you guys have a right to see it. 127 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: I'll leave it up. So I'm weird on that, but 128 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: I understand why other people might want to have that 129 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: option of deleting. I will delete tweets if it's basically 130 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: wrong in the future, so I'll say, hey, I tweeted this, Yeah, 131 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: it was wrong, and then I take a screenshot of 132 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: it for posterity. I'm like, just so people know, I 133 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: deleted this because I don't want to spread fake ears 134 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: on it. Here's the other instance where I would delete it, 135 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: Like this morning, I didn't delete the tweet, but this 136 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: morning we tweeted out the wrong live stream, right, yeah, 137 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: and that's like, you know, I mean, I just don't 138 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: want the wrong information flip. And it's not of consequence, 139 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: it's just an actual error something like that I knew 140 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: with like the factual corrections is something that yeah, of 141 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: course people, Yeah, but even those sometimes like, for example, 142 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: I we didn't talk about the Andrew Yang Andrew Johnson tweet. Yes, 143 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: the show Kyle did, but I prefer that he left 144 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: it up and then tried to like add to it. 145 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: It was funny, it was funny. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't 146 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: say he was good. I'm just saying unity is good. Yeah, 147 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: But in that case, it's like, actually, unity was really 148 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: bad the opposite point. Anyway. I don't mean to get 149 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: into a total digression here, but Kyle, I want to 150 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: hear because we haven't heard on your on breaking points, 151 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: your view on Elon Musk taking over Twitter. So I 152 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: feel like, first of all, the thing that he's saying 153 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: it's about is the thing that I care the most about. 154 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: In terms of Twitter, I do feel like they've gone 155 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: way to in the direction of being censorious. But I 156 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: don't think this is an actual solution to it. I 157 00:07:57,680 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: don't think we should like wait for a billionaire to come. 158 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: I think the only way to fix this problem is 159 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: you have to regulate Twitter like it's a public utility 160 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: and basically expand First Amendment protections and officially legally recognize 161 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: that this is the new public square in the same 162 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: way that Facebook is the new public square, and even 163 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: you could argue maybe Instagram and some others are the 164 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: new public square. So any large social media outlets should 165 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: be regulated like a public utility, and then you expand 166 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: First Amendment protections. The thing about Elon is, and I 167 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: might get in trouble for saying this, but I've been 168 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: saying stuff like this about Elon for a very long time. 169 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: I don't trust his motives. I mean, this is a 170 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,319 Speaker 1: guy who he paid three point twenty seven percent in taxes. 171 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 1: That was what's called his true tax rate from a 172 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: big expose from Pro PUBLICA. He strikes me as a 173 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: lot like all of the other billionaires, and there are 174 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: other ulterior motives as to why he would do this. 175 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: He did some you were talking to me the other 176 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: day about how you read an article. He did some 177 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: weird maneuver to make money off of the move in 178 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: the first place, and explain that to people. So, I mean, listen. 179 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: I don't know if it was intentional or if he 180 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: says oversight, but in any case, because he was late 181 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: in filing a legally required form announcing that he had 182 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: a significant stake in Twitter, he was able to continue 183 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: buying Twitter stock at the lower pre Elon announcement price, 184 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: So he netted one hundred and fifty six million dollars 185 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: off of that, and that's not the first time that 186 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 1: he has personally financially benefited from his quote unquote free 187 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: speech on Twitter. The whole long and short of this is, 188 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I feel very similar to what Kyle just stated. 189 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: Do I think that Elon Musk will have a content 190 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: moderation policy on Twitter that I personally think is better 191 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: and important for a democracy and more in the direction 192 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: of free speech? Yes? Do I think that in general 193 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: it's a good thing to be hoping that our class 194 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: of billionaires happens to have incentives and personal financial interests 195 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: that line up with what happens to be good in 196 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: that moment. No, So I don't see Elon Musk in 197 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,439 Speaker 1: any different way than I see Jeff Bezos or Bill 198 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 1: Gates or some billionaire hedge funder or anybody else. I 199 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: fully suspect that they'll be working in their own personal 200 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: interests occasionally that's going to align with the public good 201 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: and with what we would like to see happen. But 202 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: it's no system to exist. Int just hope for the 203 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: benevolence of the billionaires. And actually, Marshall, I think your 204 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: point is really smart of how to think of this 205 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: as like a billionaire buying a newspaper, because that is 206 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: how he thinks thinks of it, and that's and he 207 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: wants his own personal ability to put out there whatever 208 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: he wants to, and if it has good impacts for 209 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: everybody else, and you know, brings Trump back on Twitter 210 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: and all of those things, then that's fine. It's just 211 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: not a real answer. Go ahead, guy, Yeah, let me 212 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: just say. The true test of whether or not Elon 213 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: actually believes in free speech is going to be are 214 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: you even gonna unban your ideological opponents? Because so you 215 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: ask me, hey, should Donald Trump be unbanned? And I 216 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: say yes, Actually that's a relatively easy question. Now I 217 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: despise Donald Trump, but I think he should be allowed 218 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: back on It's a Tesla Union account going to be 219 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 1: allowed on Twitter not just Another good example is there 220 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: were there was a mass banning of like large prominent 221 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: Antifa accounts about a year two ago. Is Elon Musk 222 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: going to be the one who you know, puts his 223 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: cape on and saves Antifa for wait? I don't know 224 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: what quick thing though, like this is where I'll just 225 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: be a bit of devil's advocate here, like why should 226 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:16,839 Speaker 1: like why should those anti like, hey, I don't know 227 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: what those Antifa accounts were doing, Like there was some 228 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: bad there was some like so here's the problem here. 229 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: Twitter is terrible when it comes to actual enforcement, right, 230 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: So like, why does the hunter Biden's story matter beyond 231 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: just like the career screw up. It matters because we 232 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 1: all know that there would not have been an equivalent 233 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: that happened to the Biden campaign. That was bad moderation, 234 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: a badly run company in a way that always obviously 235 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: benefited Team Biden. But bad enforcement is different than no enforcement. 236 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: And I don't think my position like if Antifa people 237 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 1: were put roting violence on the platform, then they should 238 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: be banned. And guess what if it turned out that 239 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 1: BOM was doing the same thing and they weren't getting banned, 240 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: that's a problem. But that's different. I was just saying, 241 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: is like, the anti u BOM violence takes are different 242 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 1: to me than a union organized So so let me 243 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: I said, So it depends. So on the one hand, 244 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: you're correct, just because we believe in free speech does 245 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: not mean that you can do direct threats of violence. 246 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: Not only should that not be allowed on social media, 247 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: that's also not allowed under the First Amendment. There are 248 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: very few exceptions to this idea of free speech. You know, 249 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 1: we got libel, slander, defamation, direct threats of violence. You 250 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: could argue something like doxing is in there. In my opinion, 251 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: based on what I've seen, I think Twitter has gone 252 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: beyond this notion of direct threats of violence, just that 253 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: being wrong, because we all agree that's wrong to even 254 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: like general vague calls of violence are now considered a 255 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: direct threat of violence, and I don't agree with that. 256 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: I think you should be able to say, you know, 257 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: I got pitchfork in my hand and I'm going after 258 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: the billionaires or some shit. That's vaguely violent, but it's 259 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: not a direct threat of violence. So I would just say, 260 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: we got to lean on this side of free speech. 261 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 1: But yes, there are some clear lines, and I think 262 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: that that's what this is actually about. Nobody actually wants 263 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: one hundred percent, you know, no moderation like child porn obviously, 264 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: of course, right and so like these are all things 265 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: which are written within the law. The issue obviously is 266 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: comes to enforcement and when it comes to enforcement. I 267 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: think Crystal's correct. This is probably going to align here. 268 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: But one thing is we shouldn't present this as a 269 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: FATA complete. So it's eleven twenty six am here on 270 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: the East coast. The Twitter board reportedly has been meeting 271 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: for the last hour and a half as far as 272 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: I can tell, Yeah, I can't total pandemonium. So I 273 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: took it. I took one for the team. Oh and 274 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 1: just right now, Twitter will host an all hands meeting 275 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: with staff this afternoon to discuss elon musk takeover bid. 276 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 1: This is from Sarah Fisher at Axios. She's a great reporter. 277 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: The thing I do want to emphasize to people is 278 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: that fiduciarily, this is a really tricky one for so 279 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: I took the one for the team. I watched CNBC 280 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: this morning as this was breaking, which, by the way, 281 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: it was amazing because they were just they were loving this. 282 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: And so here's the way that they present it. It's 283 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: going to be very hard for the board not to 284 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,079 Speaker 1: take this offer. The reason why is that if they 285 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: reject the offer because of such the premium that he's 286 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: put on the share price, they will get soon because 287 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: he has put in his letter that says I will 288 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: dump my stock nine percent of the company. If you 289 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: don't accept that, that's obviously going to lower their price. 290 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: So they open themselves up to a litany of lawsuits 291 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: if they don't accept it, which would actually put them 292 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: in pretty shaky legal reasoning. On the other hand, what 293 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: you're saying is that they wouldn't be upholding their ability 294 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: to act in which is all you're supposed to do 295 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: as a board. And so at the same time they're 296 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: in a real conundrum. Now. I did see from a 297 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: leading corporate law expert that Elon may have actually played 298 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: himself a little bit because he've said in there that 299 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: he will dump his stock if they don't take that. 300 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: And so the board on legal grounds could defend the 301 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: rejection of the offer and say, well, he's trying to 302 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: coerce us into doing this, which could put regardless, this 303 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: is a nightmare for the Twitter board and they're getting 304 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: sued regardless of what happens in the situation. Elon himself 305 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: also opening himself up to some litigation. But per the 306 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: immediate reaction on CNBC and per the Wall Street analysts 307 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: that they had on at the time, they saw almost 308 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: no world where the board would be able to reject 309 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: this from a pure fiduciary responsibility which they legally have 310 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: to uphold, which puts them in a real bind, right Marshall. 311 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: I mean it's like they can't be like, well, this 312 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: isn't align with values of the company. That stuff doesn't 313 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: really matter. We had Alex counter Rits on breaking points 314 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: last week when I did an interview and he made 315 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: this point, and this is really fascinating, right, So that 316 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: number three hundred and fifty million dollars of profit in 317 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: the past two years, akaf, this company is not performing well. 318 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: Everything that you want is talking about we need more 319 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: free speech, we need more those different bits. All of 320 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: those things don't actually align with Twitter doing better as 321 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: a company. So I'm not saying this is going to 322 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: make it easy to stop the take or bid. It's 323 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: just like a really interesting dynamic. So like everything you're 324 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: talking about, right, like that sounds like a great newspaper, 325 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: like what you're discovering, Like people are free, there is speech, 326 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: there's debate, people could be contentious, but at the same time, 327 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: like Alex was pointing out that how do most of 328 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: the big tech companies actually make money? Google, like Oh, 329 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: like Facebook, it's ads TikTok ads to Twitter. If you 330 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: are advertising, if your a company wants to buy advertising, 331 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: the thing you are not going to be super willing 332 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: to do, if you're not willing to spend money already 333 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: is Oh, by the way, Twitter is gonna be even 334 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: more open. Yeah. So once again, it's just like newspaper side, 335 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: great business side. I would not be working business. Yeah, 336 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: like that's the takeaway. Aren't they experimenting with some like 337 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: premium fee? Who's going to pay this? Right? I mean 338 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: I don't know what Crystal exclusively a single person who 339 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: was actually using that function? Well, I don't know anybody 340 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: show all of you my nipple if you follow me 341 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: on Twitter premium if you even want to go there. 342 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: Only fans would be a better use of your time. 343 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: There's actually a if we if the world needs this content, 344 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: we should make it of Only fans be far more 345 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: better than a Twitter things table that. Yeah, we have 346 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: to table this. It's eleven thirty. We got to make 347 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: sure that we eleven and we're already talking about only things. 348 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: We're talking about to cover the real issues. What the 349 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: people ask for is some deep substance here and so 350 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 1: actually the number one issue, and I don't think it 351 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,719 Speaker 1: was that close in terms of the voting. Well, it 352 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 1: was like so the top two were basically tied. Oh 353 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: the time. Okay, So number one issue that you guys 354 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 1: asked for us to talk about is something that we've 355 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: covered a number of times on the show, but it's housing, 356 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: and it's particularly relevant this week because, of course, we 357 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 1: just got a sort of stunningly bad inflation report, and 358 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 1: a significant part of that had to do with shelter costs. 359 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: That's both home prices and rent. Both parts of that 360 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: obviously incredibly significant because so much of people's paycheck goes 361 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: to shelter, and also because really the only way to 362 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: get ahead and have sort of the stable, classic American 363 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 1: dream in this country is to become a homeowner, and 364 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: that's the way that we've set things up. The fact 365 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: that asset prices go up much much more quickly than 366 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: wages do, wages are actually falling behind, especially with inflation, 367 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: means that this is incredibly central to inequality, culture, society, 368 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: the fabric of the nation, all of those things. So 369 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: here's some latest stats to kind of get us kickstarted. 370 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 1: We're looking at a Bloomberg article. The headline is rent 371 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: inflation shows that landlords have the upper hand, again pointing 372 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: to massive spikes across the country. It started in sort 373 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: of the cities that people were fleeing to, the Sun 374 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: Belt cities. That's where rent spikes started, but now it's 375 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: become a nationwide trend. They also say, right at the 376 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: beginning of the pandemic, you see this radical shift where 377 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: the average rental costs in the city. If it's higher 378 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: than the US media and rent, people mass exited that city. 379 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: And if it's lower, people were mass entering that city. 380 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 1: The places with the highest inflation right now are the 381 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: ones that saw really significant demand shocks from changes in 382 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: migration trends. So you're having now this sort of national 383 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: increase in rent prices that are hitting people absolutely everywhere. 384 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:02,719 Speaker 1: Right here in New York City, and this is from 385 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: a New York Times article, you had prices spike a 386 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: third in a single year. Wow. So from January twenty 387 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 1: twenty one to January twenty twenty two, prices went up 388 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: by a third. So you had a lot of people 389 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 1: who thought, oh my god, I can finally afford to 390 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: actually live in Manhattan or actually live in the neighborhood 391 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: that I wanted to. They got in during the pandemic, 392 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: you know, helped support those landlords who were going through 393 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: tough times, and then when the renewal came up the 394 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 1: next year, they're completely priced down. They don't have a prayer. 395 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: And the other piece here is that home prices are 396 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: also skyrocketing, not just because we've had a continued inflation 397 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 1: of an asset bubble, but also because now with the 398 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: FED raising interest rates, that means that mortgage rates are 399 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: going up. That makes home prices even less affordable for people, 400 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 1: especially first time home buyers that don't have it all 401 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: in hand in cash to put down, or who can't 402 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: get it from mommy and daddy. Well what does that mean. 403 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: That means those people, instead of being able to buy 404 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: a house, are going to have to rent, and that 405 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: again increases the rent prices. The last trend that we've tracked, 406 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: of course closely, is the fact that in some of 407 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 1: these markets, it's like a third to a quarter of 408 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: the a quarter to a third of the buyers are 409 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: not regular people. It's permanent capital. It's massive influxes of 410 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: these gigantic companies that want to become America's landlord and 411 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: to change the American dream from you own your own 412 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 1: home to we'll rent you the home with the white 413 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: picket fence. Yeah, let me just zoom in on one 414 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: of the most important stats here, which is that the 415 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 1: monthly mortgage payment that it takes to buy a typical 416 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: home in the United States is now up by fifty 417 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: five percent compared from the start of last year. Jesus, 418 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: just the monthly mortgage payment. Yeah. Now, this is actually 419 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: something that Chris Ly even really focused on, which is 420 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: when the Federal Reserve raising its interest rates and throwing 421 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: kind of a change in all of the interest rates. 422 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: Also that all of us are experiencing is that we 423 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: have had the sharpest rise in mortgage interest rates in 424 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: modern American history. Just in the last two months. Rates 425 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: have gone up from three to five percent. You compound 426 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: that over the lifetime of a thirty year mortgage, that's 427 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not tens of 428 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: thousands of dollars in the average home market. Same thing 429 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 1: in terms of New York City. My own sister lives 430 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: here in New York. Marshall, I'm sure you're hearing from 431 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: a lot of friends, like the COVID price got so 432 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: many people into living situations, and given that work from 433 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: home and all that has actually remained static, a lot 434 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,120 Speaker 1: of people are now going to have to bite a 435 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: major bullet and potentially have to see a fifty or 436 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 1: sixty percent increase in rent here in the city, even 437 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: though their commisserate salary and all that, frankly faced with 438 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: inflation has gone down relative to what they're able to pay. Yeah, 439 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: I think the part that I want to pick up 440 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: on your discussing is the depressing narrative part of this. Right, 441 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: So like COVID, I shouldn't have to say this insert 442 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: is the worst thing that's happened in all of our lifetimes. Obviously, 443 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: but especially in the summer once the lockdowns ended, you 444 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: had this story of Hey, COVID has now helped everyone 445 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 1: realize that in a lot of professions, you don't have 446 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: to actually go into an office, and you don't actually 447 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: have to live in New York, and we could have 448 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: this bontable future where maybe you want to live in Tulsa, 449 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: maybe you want to live in South Carolina, like you 450 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: could have this place where it's not as if, you know, 451 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: if the American dream of you buying like a nice 452 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: house on Long Island is probably gone. But guess what 453 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: the good news is the Internet has made it so 454 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: that you could basically live anywhere if you're a white collar. Yeah. 455 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 1: But here's the key thing. Even that white collar story 456 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,479 Speaker 1: hasn't played out like that's what's actually really fast thing 457 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: to me, which is rightly like Richard, what I actually 458 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: recently heard is that more people have moved to New 459 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: York now than actually we're moving to New York before COVID. 460 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: So what you're really seeing there is that what you saw, 461 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: what people wanted to have happen is that the Internet 462 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 1: would like sperse decentralized, like weaken the power of these 463 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: big cities d C, New York, LA. It didn't happen, 464 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: And so I think it just it's an important story 465 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: even if you're like not a white collar person, because 466 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 1: I'm not fun with crim sob story about like Google employees. 467 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: It's more just that I think there were so many 468 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: instances like this of us not being critical and making 469 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: like how many books were written the past two or 470 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: three years claiming that this wouldn't happen. How many takes 471 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: were there, like no worries, Guys like all this is 472 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: basically solved now if I pick up on them. This 473 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 1: is fascinating before I go to Kyle, which is that 474 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: people were like, oh, well people will leave New York 475 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 1: and people will go and they'll go to Boise. Which happened. 476 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: You know, rent inflation in Boise is up like fifty percent. Well, 477 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: here's what happened. Now, rent is high here and in 478 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: bois right now? Rent is I here? And in Austin, 479 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: rent is I here? And in Dallas, rent does I hear? 480 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 1: And in Tampa we had some of the places that 481 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: they're so instead of what's happened is you've had the 482 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: rich folks here who have had a massive increase in 483 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: their price of their home. Also, the people who have 484 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: the money are relatively fleeing, driving up the price in 485 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: other cities. But it's priced out. Basically, anybody who makes 486 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: this less than what three hundred and fifty thousand dollars 487 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: a year, that's like ninety six percent of I mean 488 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: average home price. The average is now a half a 489 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: million dollar, right, Yeah, that's insane crazy. So one of 490 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: the things I remember there was an article maybe about 491 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: a year ago that came out and explained how one 492 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: of the things that's things that's happening is like black 493 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: Rock and some other Wall Street ghouls are going around 494 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: buying up all the houses and then just renting them 495 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,199 Speaker 1: back to people. Yes. Correct, So in a way we 496 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: sort of reinflated the bubble, just through a different path 497 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 1: the two thousand and eight bubble that burst. So you know, 498 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 1: I look at that and I say, I are we 499 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: gonna avoid it bursting again? Is it not going to 500 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 1: burst because it's Black Rock who owns it and is 501 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 1: renting it out to everybody? Or is it still going 502 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: to burst? And the other fact that sticks out in 503 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: my mind is that one of the the reasons why 504 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: you've had this push from the government to get people 505 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 1: back into the office is because the commercial real estate bubble, yeah, 506 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: was going to burst if people didn't go back to 507 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: the office. Yeah. So there's sort of like a nefarious 508 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: motive along those lines as well. Yeah, that's definitely the case. 509 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: Not to mention bosses just like want your ass in 510 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,959 Speaker 1: a chair where they can like watch your ever move 511 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,640 Speaker 1: can try and if you are perfectly productive on your 512 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: own time. Yeah, I mean this is also a generational story, 513 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: because we already have the stats to know that millennials 514 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: are hitting every financial milestone later than boomers and older 515 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: generations did. So they're you know, getting married later, they're 516 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: starting families later, and they're owning homes later. And this 517 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: is I've come to realize that this really is central 518 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: to sort of class dynamics in the country, perhaps even 519 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: more so than wages and your work status, because the 520 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: way that the economy works is if you are an 521 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: asset owner, everything is basically set up for you. I mean, 522 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 1: this is a very powerful constituency. Homeowners are very powerful constituency. 523 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: That's why the logic of the market has been home 524 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: price is going up and up and up and up, 525 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 1: because this is a powerful constituency that benefits from that policy. 526 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: So you are never going to be able to really 527 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 1: get on the wrong of that sort of stable middle 528 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: class life where you have a nest egg and you 529 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 1: have something you can pass forward to your children if 530 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: you're not able to get into the housing market. I mean, 531 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: this is how middle class wealth is built in this country, 532 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: and increasingly, to Marshall's point, even the white collar worker 533 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: to income white collar workers in expensive cities can't do 534 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 1: it unless they have mommy and daddy's help. And this 535 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: is you know, this isn't just anecdotal. These are what 536 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: the statistics bear out is that increasingly first time buyers 537 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: have to get that massive lie lump some payment from 538 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: mom and dad. And so it also makes hardens intergenerational 539 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: wealth divides as well, where if your parents were able 540 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: to buy in and do well and able to help 541 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 1: you out, then you are set up to be part 542 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: of that class that makes it. And it just exacerbates 543 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: these massive divides in this country. And that has obviously 544 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: massive implications in terms of racial wealth disparities as well, 545 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: and all of these things become incredibly important. So the 546 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: sort of asset owning non asset owning divide in the 547 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: country has become almost more central than anything else. So 548 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: what I'm wondering though, is I think we did a 549 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: great job like setting up like the State of Affairs, 550 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: Like what actually does one do now? Because to your point, 551 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: kylewake thinking of Okay, there's this huge housing market crash 552 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: in the two thousands. The history here is complicated and 553 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: it's a little more just like the big short story. 554 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: But part of the story there is that a huge 555 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: priority for the Bush administration very explicitly was heyck, what's 556 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 1: increase home ownership? And then there's a conversation about how 557 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: like the way they ended up doing that ended up 558 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: benefiting Wall Street and all these disasters. Yeah, but they 559 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: start there was this actual star warship of like Bush 560 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: frame it does like you want the ownership society this 561 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 1: was gonna be And this was part of their broad 562 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: like privatizing social security pitch. So I'm not saying like 563 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,959 Speaker 1: this is a good thing, but like we saw an 564 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: attempt so like what would be y'all's version of what 565 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: how should we make this better? Then on that it's 566 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: a good point, And really what it is is that 567 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: we loosened the REGs two thousand and three onward and 568 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: made it almost too las a fair both for the 569 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: people who are borrowing, but worse also for the commoditization 570 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: of that, and then did nothing about it. So the problem, 571 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: and I think is that we've actually gone too far 572 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: in the other direction, which is that now we've put 573 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: all of these onerous regulation on the banks. So what 574 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: you just noted Crystal about the average home price is 575 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: officially over half a million dollars, Well, that means that 576 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: fifty percent of Americans now don't just have to qualify 577 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: for a mortgage, they have to qualify for a jumbo mortgage, 578 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: which actually the banks themselves have much more strict regulations 579 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: in terms of who they're going to loan to, which 580 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: makes you even more disproportionately likely in order to need 581 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: your parents and their credit score in order to sign 582 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: on for your mortgage. Application limits the amount of the 583 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: pool of people. So what I would say is that 584 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: from the Federal Reserve, and this is a complicated story too, 585 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: but on their front, they need to focus continually on 586 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: the second part of their mandate, which is full employment. 587 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: And when you focus on full employment and not just 588 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: on interest rates, is the only sledgehammer that you have, 589 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: then we're talking about wages and that has to be 590 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: the number one focus of the administration. Also, I would note, 591 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: I mean, this is a policy show more so than 592 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: the current news. But there's a reason that Joe Biden 593 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: has a twenty six percent approval rating amongst young people's 594 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: and like, this is part of the mean young people 595 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 1: are like, hey, I cannot win in the current society. 596 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: My solution, to the extent I have any which I'm 597 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: not sure I do, but I think why not go 598 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: back to the same regulations that when they were in place, 599 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: we had a generation of stability and economic security for 600 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: the country, what's generally called the Golden Age of economic 601 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: expansion and so like, for example, the fact that when 602 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: the crash hit No. Eight immediately in the aftermath of that, 603 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: they didn't just put back in Glass Deegle, and that 604 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: was viewed as like too extreme to go back to 605 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: glass Egle. Well, that arguably the separation of commercial banking 606 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: and investment banking was arguably one of the things that 607 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: you know, kept the economy safe and functioning in a 608 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: relatively safe way. So I mean, I would just look 609 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: to the past and the New Deal regulations and whatever 610 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: worked in the past you need to implement now, and 611 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: then whatever new issues arise, you have to come up 612 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: with intelligent regulations. You've got to have this thing at 613 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: every level, because as we start off talking, you know, 614 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: the fact that people cannot afford a home puts pressure 615 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: on the rental market and then you know, makes it 616 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: difficult to afford even a rental home and then contributes 617 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: to the massive exploding issue of homelessness that every single 618 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: in the country in a small town, Frank, I mean, 619 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: I see people who are homeless in my little tiny 620 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: town in King George County in Fredericksburg, Virginia that I 621 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: never saw before in my entire life. So you have 622 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: to start at every level. You have to have a 623 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: massive influx of affordable housing. You have to have a 624 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: radical rethink of homeless policy and move in the direction 625 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: of housing first and getting people the services that they 626 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: need on top of that, so that you expand the 627 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: pool in terms of the rental market. Obviously, right now 628 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: there's also a housing supply shortage because of the supply chain, 629 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: so dealing with that is another important part of the problem. 630 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: I would be perfectly comfortable with laws that personally ban 631 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: black rock on those people from buying up entire neighborhoods. 632 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: But if people don't want to go that far, you 633 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: could certainly have REGs in place that privilege individual homeowners 634 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: who get the first crack at the house. And it's 635 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: basically like, if there's no one who will come in 636 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: at the market price, you know, as an individual homeowner, 637 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: then maybe we could consider a black rock bit or 638 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: some other permanent capital, you know, larger financial institution. I 639 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: think that would make a big difference, especially in some 640 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: of these Sunbelt cities where you've got twenty thirty percent 641 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: of the home purchases single family home purchases are not 642 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: from individual homeowners. The other piece I think you have 643 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: to deal with is that lump sum payment. I mean, 644 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: how many stories have we read about people who they're Okay, 645 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: I listen, it's tough, but I can do the half 646 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: a million dollar house. But I don't have half a 647 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 1: million dollars literally sitting in my bank account in cash 648 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: to put down. So the government programs we have in 649 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: place right now in terms of mortgages are all set 650 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: up to help people to get the mortgage to be 651 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: able to make the PA. We have to have programs 652 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: in place to help people get that lump some payment 653 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: down who can't get it from mommy and dead goose 654 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: to wages. Though no, doesn't that That's what I would say, 655 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: that's part of it too. I'll give a quick anecdote 656 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: that speaks to this. So I'm you know, I'm renting, 657 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: I got a great pandemic deal, and I've discovered and 658 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: because once again, like and this is what's so toxic, 659 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: Like I did not realize that, like at thirty, I 660 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: could buy a home. So I didn't think. So I 661 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,479 Speaker 1: haven't thought. I just started thinking about, yeah, pticted Tozilo. 662 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: I can make mortgage payments like relatively was spent. I 663 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: live in Wisburg, New York, like COVID, like rent deals 664 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: are over, Like I could easily get a mortgage. But 665 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: guess what, I don't have that lump some payment, right, 666 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: So that's that is what it's and it's kind of 667 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: like and that's the insane part. I just want to 668 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: add one thing on this two start, because Chrystin gradually 669 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: talked about Fredericksburg. Because think we've been focused on like 670 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: a national scale politics thing, but the local thing, the 671 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: story you're telling about affordable housing, the story you're telling 672 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: about new construction that's actually very local and very state based. Yes, 673 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: So I know that you and I disagree a bit 674 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: on like the yimb nimby thing. So and there's complications there. 675 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: So for example, like I understand why a local community 676 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: would say, like, hey, like we don't want to wake 677 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: up one day and all of a sudden there's all 678 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: these like huge giant condos next to us. In order 679 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: to qualify as affordable housing. So this is a key 680 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: task for local state politicians, which is how do we 681 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: balance Hey, communities should decide what they want to look 682 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: like with Hey, Actually, there's this generational crisis. And what 683 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: I what I don't think is happening right now, is 684 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,879 Speaker 1: right now you have politicians who are worried about, Hey, 685 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,439 Speaker 1: we don't want to have old homeowners get worried about 686 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 1: their community chances there, but they are not thinking about, Hey, 687 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: let's balance that with the fact that people like us, frankly, 688 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: who are privileged in our own way, people who aren't 689 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 1: even us, don't even think factor in it at all. 690 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:24,760 Speaker 1: I do. I don't think there are basically any governors 691 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: who are thinking, No, they're not. Yeah, I think that's 692 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: exactly right. Yeah, And I mean, look it if you 693 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: leave it up to the communities, I mean, I feel 694 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: like nobody cares about homelessness enough to actually do a 695 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,280 Speaker 1: housing first policy because there's not much. There's no money 696 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: in that, and it's you know, you're doing something that's 697 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: almost purely altruistic in a sense if you're do housing 698 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: first and then add like increase the value well speak 699 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: coming from la like, look if they cleaned up skid 700 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: row like they would dramatically increase the value of like 701 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: all the property. But cleans up means what doesn't mean 702 00:34:55,280 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: criminalize them. That's a great question, and that's why that's 703 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:01,800 Speaker 1: why it is what it is in terms of the 704 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: status quo, right because it's easier to do. It's cheaper 705 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 1: to just criminalize, clean up, do what Eric Adams is 706 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: doing in New York than it is to actually have 707 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: a housing first pod, which is complicated and difficult, I 708 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: would say on the just to put a cap on it. 709 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: Banking rags is a huge part of this because what 710 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: you're getting to and Crystal you allude to this. I 711 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: have heard so many stories of people we have ten 712 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: percent down, but then they get out bid by somebody 713 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: who has it the entire thing in cash. So really 714 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: what it is is that there are certain rags which 715 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 1: already have this in place in terms of the way 716 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: that neighborhoods and others are allowed to discriminate. Is you 717 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,240 Speaker 1: have to make it so that the banks themselves can 718 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: cannot discriminate quote unquote against that as long as you're 719 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: good for it. Whenever it comes to the mortgage loan itself. 720 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: Thank you got, you would level the plane. You've got 721 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: a privilege regular even privileges regular people over permanent capital 722 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: because and there's a big cultural issue here as well, 723 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 1: because you know, you end up with more transient population. Already, 724 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: we have communities that are just completely sort of rutless 725 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: integrated and people feeling adrift. And I do think that's 726 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: part of sort of the the core rot and degradation 727 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: of the countries. Another issue, yes, number two, number two 728 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: on the list. So we figured out housing, we're going 729 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:25,919 Speaker 1: to tackle healthcare, guys. So the specific language we put 730 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 1: in that you guys voted for is basically like what 731 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 1: happened to healthcare? I mean we had this entire certainly 732 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: the uh well, even going back to Trump's time in office. 733 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: I mean, the Republicans were very focused on healthcare in 734 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,399 Speaker 1: an extremely deliterious way. John McCain gives us famous thumb down, 735 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: and they decided basically like you know what, we're actually 736 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: we're not going to do anything about healthcare at all. 737 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: And then you have a Democratic primary that really centers 738 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 1: around the debate between Medicare for all and you know, 739 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: expanding Obamacare, and and the voters routinely said we want 740 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: Medicare for all. But then they also went ahead and said, 741 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: but the number one thing we care about is beating Trump, 742 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: and we believe Joe Biden can do that and not 743 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders. But then you have a pandemic that hits. 744 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: And so you think you would think that, as you're 745 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: witnessing in real time the manifest failures, deadly failures of 746 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: our healthcare system visa vi the rest of the developed world, 747 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: that that would increase the political pressure and impetus to 748 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,360 Speaker 1: actually have a decent healthcare system where people are able 749 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: to afford and get care. And in fact, the exact 750 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,439 Speaker 1: opposite has happened, and it's even worse than you know, 751 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: the most basic obvious popular among ninety percent of Americans 752 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 1: reforms like decreasing prescription drug prices and allowing the Medicare 753 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: program to be able to negotiate with pharmaceutical companies on 754 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,720 Speaker 1: prescription drug prices. Not only is that off the table, 755 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: but I was looking this morning the lever is reporting 756 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: that they're actually going in the opposite direction. There there 757 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: privates further privatizing Medicare and pushing seniors who don't even 758 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: know this is happening to them into privatized systems that 759 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: have been proven to have much higher rates. They got 760 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,720 Speaker 1: to get their profit margins. So the much less money 761 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,879 Speaker 1: is going to care and much more is just going 762 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: to fatten their bank accounts and fatten their wallets. So 763 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,840 Speaker 1: it's not even just that healthcare has disappeared, it's that 764 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 1: things are actively getting worse. And then the last part 765 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: of this that is also very disheartening is the one 766 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 1: thing that Democrats did when they first came in and 767 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,720 Speaker 1: they passed the Cares Act, is they included in there 768 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: some subsidies for Obamacare so that people could more easily 769 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 1: afford their healthcare premiums. But just as with the Chile 770 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 1: tax credit, they made it temporary. So now in October, 771 00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: right before election day, millions of Americans, most of them 772 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 1: like older middle class Americans, exactly the type of people 773 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,800 Speaker 1: vote in the mentorm elections. In October, they're going to 774 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 1: get a letter informing them that their health insurance premiums 775 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: on the Obamacare exchange market are about to skyrocket. So 776 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:20,240 Speaker 1: it's like worse than doing nothing. If you ask Americans, Kyle, 777 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,280 Speaker 1: they still will tell you healthcare is if not their 778 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: inflation is number one. Probably now but healthcare is always 779 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,239 Speaker 1: number two, number three on the list of their top priorities, 780 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: and yet the political class has abandoned it entirely. Yeah. Look, 781 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: this is I'm a simple man, I'm a straightforward man. 782 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: I'm not a genius. What I did is I went 783 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 1: and looked at the various studies about the various healthcare 784 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,320 Speaker 1: systems around the world, and consistently, time and time again, 785 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: the answers are clear. When the Commonwealth Fund does their study, 786 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 1: which they do like every other year or something like that, 787 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: we came in eleventh out of eleven of developed countries 788 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: for our healthcare system. So it's not like we don't 789 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: know what the answers are. Of course we know what 790 00:39:57,719 --> 00:39:59,359 Speaker 1: the answers are. Now, is there room for some debate 791 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: of cour debate about what kind of particular universal healthcare 792 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: system you want to have. You could look at the 793 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: British system, for example, which is public funding of public 794 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,840 Speaker 1: hospitals and doctors, so everything is public, everything is nationalized. 795 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 1: Or you could look at a Canadian style system, or 796 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 1: like a French style system, where it's public funding of 797 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: some private institutions and private doctors and private hospitals. That's 798 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 1: all a reasonable debate and discussion to have. But that 799 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: is really the Overton window that makes sense in that conversation. 800 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 1: What we do here with our private healthcare system is 801 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: and private health insurance system is a total mess. And 802 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,320 Speaker 1: the only reason why we haven't gotten to a place 803 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,439 Speaker 1: where we've implemented one of the systems that works better 804 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: is because of the influence of the health insurance companies. 805 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,879 Speaker 1: They buy Republican and Democratic politicians, and so what they're 806 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 1: buying is the status quot, the ability to continue the 807 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 1: status quot. They can keep making a tremendous amount of money. 808 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,280 Speaker 1: Even Obamacare, that was an idea that was originally birthed 809 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 1: by the Heritage Foundation, was a right wing thing tank 810 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: that came up with that, and we used to be 811 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: supported by Chuck Grassley and Newt Gingrich and Rodney, and 812 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,359 Speaker 1: then the Democrats moved to the Republican position. The Republican said, well, 813 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 1: now our position is, let's not do anything at all, 814 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,920 Speaker 1: and so those are your options. Now your options are, 815 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: you know, a very corporate plan and the complete status quo. 816 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: And so it drives me crazy because this is one 817 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: of those things where I see the answer, I know 818 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:15,760 Speaker 1: what the answer is, and the reason why we don't 819 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: do it is because of the corruption in DC. I 820 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,400 Speaker 1: will say this though, and this is actually also the 821 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: meta question which we asked, which is what happened to 822 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 1: healthcare debate. I think the culture war is what happened 823 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: in the healthcare debate, which is that? And Crystal, I 824 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: think we've talked about this on a more recent show, 825 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,400 Speaker 1: but I was alluding to this. It's like, look the 826 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 1: current look at the public health bureaucracy and the current 827 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: level of trust in that zero and it's like, oh, 828 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 1: and then somebody wants to empower them. So the amount 829 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:42,760 Speaker 1: of trust that you're going to have to win back 830 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 1: with the American people in the current health infrastructure is immense. 831 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,719 Speaker 1: And I don't agree with that though, because people still 832 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 1: very much like Medicare. I mean, Medicare is still Medicare 833 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 1: is still very popular and still if you pull people, 834 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 1: I mean, they're on board for certainly low oring the 835 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,839 Speaker 1: Medicare age significantly, they're certainly on board for you know, 836 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 1: the really incrementalist changes like the negotiating the prescription drug prices. 837 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,239 Speaker 1: So I don't know that like distaste for Fauci has 838 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 1: lessened people's interest in having affordable healthcare. Go ahead, Marshall. 839 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:19,479 Speaker 1: But it's like you said, though, Kyle, and this fits 840 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,839 Speaker 1: in with what you just said, Crystal, that's the status quo. 841 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 1: So right, No that so no matter what like Medico yes, 842 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 1: like and Union said incremental was too, so the problem. 843 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 1: So I guess here's what I say. So one quick 844 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 1: question to you, Kyle, And I mean this like in 845 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,759 Speaker 1: total good faith, do you talk to Republicans about it? 846 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 1: And I used to mean like norming Republicans about healthcare? 847 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,720 Speaker 1: Uh well, I mean I have some Republicans in my family, 848 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,880 Speaker 1: but we don't talk about almost any of that stuff Soccer, 849 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,880 Speaker 1: you and I like just through DC social circle. The 850 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,440 Speaker 1: Republicans who deeply oppose changing the healthcare system are not 851 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,399 Speaker 1: bought off by big pharmacts. Oh. With the Republicans, it's 852 00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 1: also ideological yea. Then to ignore their blue blue shield 853 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 1: donations and things of that nature. I'm not saying you can. 854 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: I know, I'm talking about lawmakers. I'm not talking about 855 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:10,200 Speaker 1: the nobles. Here's my thing. Like, I promise you that 856 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,319 Speaker 1: if you let's say you just like magically snapped your 857 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 1: fingers in blue cross Brushield just cannot donate money. I 858 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 1: guarantee you. And this goes to Sager's culture or point 859 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 1: that is not determining the broad opposition to it. I 860 00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:23,719 Speaker 1: think we're in the middle of this. I think it 861 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,560 Speaker 1: is really in DC for sure. In DC for sure, 862 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:30,279 Speaker 1: with Republicans, it is ideological and corrupt. With Democrats, it's 863 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 1: just corrupt because they all know that the right answer 864 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,879 Speaker 1: is medicare for all. But in terms of your broader point. 865 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: But in terms of your broader point, some polls have 866 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: a majority of Republicans that want medicare for all. I 867 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 1: don't know among the population. It's just it's the simple 868 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:44,120 Speaker 1: idea of you walk up to somebody on the street 869 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,239 Speaker 1: and you go, hey, man, should everybody have health care? 870 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: We spend seven trillion dollars on war, but we can't 871 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 1: give everybody health care. And what's supposed to be the 872 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 1: richest country in the world, and people have a gut 873 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:54,759 Speaker 1: instinct and they're like, well, of course everybody should have 874 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,319 Speaker 1: health care, and that includes Republicans. No, definitely true. But 875 00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: once again, this is where the culture war comes in. 876 00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,239 Speaker 1: And if you ask those people what's their fear centralized authority, right, 877 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: They're like, well, I don't want these people telling me 878 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,120 Speaker 1: that I can't, you know, do this, and I have 879 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 1: to get insurance company that does it now. But let's 880 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 1: just be clear, Republicans aren't in charge right now. True, 881 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 1: and Joe Biden ran on public option, and he ran 882 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:24,839 Speaker 1: very much. Democrats have been running for literally more than 883 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:31,359 Speaker 1: a decade now on medicare, negotiating prescription drug prices, and furthermore, 884 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:36,400 Speaker 1: it's a pandemic, and there Joe Biden has the authority 885 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:42,960 Speaker 1: to use emergency powers to expand Medicare during a health emergency. 886 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:46,879 Speaker 1: So Libby Montana, for example, almost all the residents of 887 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,799 Speaker 1: this small town in Montana have Medicare and they love it. 888 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,759 Speaker 1: And by the way, it's a bunch of Republicans because 889 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,400 Speaker 1: their Senator Max Bacchus, who was very opposed to Medicare 890 00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,600 Speaker 1: for all at the time, but he thought to get 891 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:03,719 Speaker 1: that prevent and put into Obamacare. Because they were poisoned 892 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,239 Speaker 1: by industrial company mining and asbestos and it was a 893 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 1: total mess. They deserve Medicare, the entire country to deserves Medicare. 894 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,879 Speaker 1: So when we're asking the question what happened to it, 895 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 1: the Republicans at this point aren't really relevant to the debate. 896 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: I think much more illuminating is what happened in California, correct, 897 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 1: Gavin Russom. I mean in California you had Democrats who 898 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,640 Speaker 1: have a supermajority in the House and the Senate, they've 899 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,120 Speaker 1: got the governorship. Freaking Gavin Newsom not only did he 900 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:37,320 Speaker 1: run on Medicare for all, he castigated other Democratic politicians, 901 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: mocked them relentlessly for pretending they support for single payer 902 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:42,480 Speaker 1: and then getting in there and saying, oh, it's this, 903 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:44,960 Speaker 1: I can't and it's just too hard, et cetera, et cetera. 904 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,480 Speaker 1: And then when it came down to it, ultimately they 905 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 1: got massive donations in from the health insurance companies. He 906 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 1: was given out favorable pandemic contracts with some of these 907 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,360 Speaker 1: same people in what looked like blatant pay to play. 908 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,560 Speaker 1: Democrat party was getting direct donations and lo and behold, 909 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,959 Speaker 1: they don't even take the vote. So you are right. 910 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:11,200 Speaker 1: Republicans have an absolute ideological opposition to single payer health care, 911 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,920 Speaker 1: no doubt about it. Elected Republicans, no doubt about it. 912 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,880 Speaker 1: There is a significant strain of Republicans, generally at the 913 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,319 Speaker 1: grossroots level, who are mistrustful of the government, although those 914 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:27,160 Speaker 1: people also really like Medicare. But in terms of right now, 915 00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,560 Speaker 1: what happened to the healthcare debate, that's all about the 916 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:33,759 Speaker 1: Republicans and being more concerned with their corporate donors, I mean, 917 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:35,960 Speaker 1: with the Democrats and being more concerned with their corporate 918 00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 1: donors than ultimately what they ran on, what their base 919 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,960 Speaker 1: and the American people want. The one era I will 920 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,960 Speaker 1: spotlight on this is the prescription drug thing. Like that's crazy. 921 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,000 Speaker 1: Like even Democrats I mean sorry, even most Republicans actually 922 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,080 Speaker 1: agree with like in terms of vote It's like, literally, 923 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,440 Speaker 1: so why don't any of them do it? It's like Crystal, 924 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,160 Speaker 1: it's all about the influence of That is actually where 925 00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,120 Speaker 1: I will say, that's where the influence comes in. And 926 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:01,120 Speaker 1: that's what happened under Try if I recall it was 927 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,239 Speaker 1: a titanic fight just to get a change in the 928 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:08,920 Speaker 1: HHS regulation in order to require it was like approval 929 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:13,560 Speaker 1: on pharmaceutical advertising on television. And this was a huge 930 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,000 Speaker 1: thing within the Trump administration. Was like all out fight 931 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,480 Speaker 1: alex Asar versus Kelly an Conway, who I think was 932 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,360 Speaker 1: on the right side of this issue weirdly enough tbt, 933 00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:27,839 Speaker 1: but even they, Yeah, a lot of shock. I guess 934 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,319 Speaker 1: you let me give Trump a little bit of credit here. 935 00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,120 Speaker 1: One of the things they did pass was this transparency 936 00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:36,919 Speaker 1: in pricing, Like it's this sort of like Li Kerry ninety, 937 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,080 Speaker 1: but this is you know, a worth worthwhile to be 938 00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,359 Speaker 1: able to know like this hospital is going to charge 939 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,479 Speaker 1: me ten thousand dollars and this one's going to charge 940 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,080 Speaker 1: me one hundred thousand dollars, and sometimes the prices ferries 941 00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:51,320 Speaker 1: are that great. Well, guess what the hospitals just said, Nah, 942 00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:53,399 Speaker 1: we're not going to do it, like we know this 943 00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,319 Speaker 1: is literally legally required of us, and we just don't 944 00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:58,400 Speaker 1: really give a shit. So a bunch of the hospitals 945 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,240 Speaker 1: didn't even do it. So again as like the lowest 946 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:06,400 Speaker 1: bar possible. This is something that Biden's HHS could go after, 947 00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,279 Speaker 1: and are they. But also I feel like that whole 948 00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,600 Speaker 1: debate is so misleading because it's like it's not nothing 949 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:14,759 Speaker 1: really comes of that. And the same way that they 950 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,440 Speaker 1: have these laws about you know, you have to show 951 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:20,759 Speaker 1: who your donors are and who funded your campaign or 952 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:22,719 Speaker 1: who funded your super pac and so the debate we're 953 00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,040 Speaker 1: having is like I want to be corrupt in secret 954 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:26,440 Speaker 1: and not show who's paying me, and the other ones 955 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:27,759 Speaker 1: are like, I want to be corrupt, but show you 956 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:29,480 Speaker 1: who's paying me, And it's like, count, let's just not 957 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,000 Speaker 1: be corrupt because agreed. Yeah, obviously agreed, And you and 958 00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,080 Speaker 1: I are obviously on the same page in terms of 959 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,160 Speaker 1: healthcare policy. But you know, I think about the potential 960 00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,680 Speaker 1: stock trading band sure that the reason that's even on 961 00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:47,440 Speaker 1: the table is because transparency and disclosure. The Stock Act 962 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,480 Speaker 1: was passed that required members of Congress to at least 963 00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:55,040 Speaker 1: expose what their conflicts of interest are and what trades 964 00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,080 Speaker 1: they were ultimately making. And because we had that information, 965 00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,600 Speaker 1: then you had unusual whale picking up on that and 966 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:04,600 Speaker 1: diving into the data and saying, oh, look look at 967 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:06,239 Speaker 1: what Nancy Pelosi is doing here, Oh look at what 968 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,080 Speaker 1: Dan Crenshaw's doing here, look at what these lawmakers are doing. 969 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:13,399 Speaker 1: During the pandemic, that sparked a real mass, populous sort 970 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:17,399 Speaker 1: of uprising and discussed at that corruption, and that has 971 00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,560 Speaker 1: helped create an impetus for change to where now I 972 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,920 Speaker 1: just saw, you know, just this morning, there's an additional 973 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,680 Speaker 1: movement on a potential stock trading ban. So is transparency 974 00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:29,840 Speaker 1: the end? I'll be all, no, can it be a 975 00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,600 Speaker 1: helpful tool for galvanizing public support and political pressure for 976 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,120 Speaker 1: doing the right thing. Yeah, it can be. You're undoubtedly 977 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,279 Speaker 1: correct about that. But all I'm voicing is the frustration 978 00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,400 Speaker 1: that we're taking baby steps. It's like we're running one 979 00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,800 Speaker 1: hundred yard dash. We run five yards and start celebrating 980 00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:46,360 Speaker 1: that we ran five yards. It's like, I'm like, I 981 00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,040 Speaker 1: want to get to the one hundred yard line. And 982 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,200 Speaker 1: so it's just frustrating that we have to take these 983 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,560 Speaker 1: baby wins. In the same way that with Obamacare, you 984 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:54,680 Speaker 1: could say, look, you start changing the system a little 985 00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:56,359 Speaker 1: bit and then maybe you'll pick up momentum and change 986 00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:58,440 Speaker 1: it more. And it's like, yeah, maybe, and that's a 987 00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:00,520 Speaker 1: good thing. And I'm happy the millions more people got healthcare, 988 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:02,279 Speaker 1: what about the thirty million that don't have it right now? 989 00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:05,360 Speaker 1: So I'm just voicing my frustration that it's like in 990 00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,440 Speaker 1: Washington they need these baby steps, whereas we're sitting here 991 00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,399 Speaker 1: and if you look at it objectively, you're like, can 992 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:11,920 Speaker 1: you just stop with the baby steps and take a 993 00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:13,480 Speaker 1: couple of leaps, please catch up to the rest of 994 00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:15,240 Speaker 1: the world. Yeah, I think a lot of that requires 995 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,319 Speaker 1: political consensus, unfortunately, and like that is where that's where 996 00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:20,560 Speaker 1: I just always come back to this and I'm just like, man, like, 997 00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:22,959 Speaker 1: when you're this divided. Look, I mean we talked about 998 00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:24,400 Speaker 1: the child tax credit, right like, at the end of 999 00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,000 Speaker 1: the day, child tax credit expired, millions of people went 1000 00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,200 Speaker 1: more into poverty. But like, do you see a mass uprising. Now, 1001 00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:32,400 Speaker 1: I'm not saying it didn't hurt them on the Democratic base, 1002 00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:35,480 Speaker 1: but a legitimate mass uprising. No, Like it's not happening. 1003 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:37,719 Speaker 1: But the people are there though, that's corect It did 1004 00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:41,040 Speaker 1: hurt them in the polls. Certain the people are there, 1005 00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,040 Speaker 1: but they're not marching in the streets over the you know, 1006 00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,400 Speaker 1: the extent the extended child tax credit going away. But 1007 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:47,840 Speaker 1: this was the soccer's point though, and this is the problem. 1008 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,200 Speaker 1: Polls aren't consensus. So like something I've never heard like 1009 00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:52,920 Speaker 1: a perfect answer to this question. So I'm not expecting 1010 00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,839 Speaker 1: when I will give you one, Like yeah, setting that up. 1011 00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:00,960 Speaker 1: American politics when we passed like Medica Care, Medicaid, like 1012 00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,359 Speaker 1: the policies that obviously we're not like we're allowing them 1013 00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:04,879 Speaker 1: and we support them at a policy level, but they're 1014 00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:09,080 Speaker 1: also politically popular. American politics was corrupt as hell, like 1015 00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,160 Speaker 1: like actually, like LBJ was like fundamentally corrupt at a 1016 00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:14,759 Speaker 1: level that like you think Nancy Pelosi's stock trading is bad, 1017 00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,000 Speaker 1: Like yeah, he's like bags of cats. Yeah yeah, yeah, 1018 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,680 Speaker 1: literally bought his way into the Senate. Yet even in 1019 00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:26,200 Speaker 1: that system of corruption, you pass these popular, consensus based policies. 1020 00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:28,160 Speaker 1: So the question I just really want to understand better 1021 00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,520 Speaker 1: is separate from just the polling, Like, and this is 1022 00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:32,239 Speaker 1: what you're kind of getting out, like why is there 1023 00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,319 Speaker 1: not like because like, let me put it this way, 1024 00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:36,320 Speaker 1: and maybe you guys are gonna push back on me 1025 00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,759 Speaker 1: when I said this, but I actually think if the 1026 00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:43,560 Speaker 1: people of West Virginia actually wanted deeply in the streets, 1027 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,919 Speaker 1: wanted medicare for all, then Joe Manchin would support it. Because, yes, 1028 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:49,120 Speaker 1: Joe Manchin, you could say he's corrupt, you could say 1029 00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,279 Speaker 1: he cares about donations, he cares about power. He wants 1030 00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:53,719 Speaker 1: to get re elected, that is all Joe, Joe, Joe 1031 00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,160 Speaker 1: Manchin would much rather be in the Senate than get 1032 00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,560 Speaker 1: like a fifty k chiin. No, here's here's here's why 1033 00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,160 Speaker 1: I disagree. There was a poll on build Back Better 1034 00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:05,200 Speaker 1: in West Virginia of likely voters, and it wasn't just 1035 00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,440 Speaker 1: the majority of Democrats and the majority of independence. It 1036 00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,000 Speaker 1: was even a majority of Republicans that liked the original 1037 00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,320 Speaker 1: build back better proposal. And so that was the case, 1038 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:15,919 Speaker 1: and Mansion stuck his middle finger up because he had 1039 00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,680 Speaker 1: another thing he could do to garner support, which is 1040 00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:19,880 Speaker 1: a little bit of a bait and switch and a 1041 00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:22,840 Speaker 1: culture war trick. He was able to posture like, you know, 1042 00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,359 Speaker 1: I'm against the leadership and the Democratic Party because I'm 1043 00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:27,680 Speaker 1: a good old West Virginia Democrat and I'm more moderate. 1044 00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,359 Speaker 1: So as long as he takes that line and doesn't 1045 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,680 Speaker 1: get into the specifics of what he's actually against, that 1046 00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:34,719 Speaker 1: he could still have a political win, even though he's 1047 00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,080 Speaker 1: doing something that's deeply unpopular. When you get into the 1048 00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:38,879 Speaker 1: specifics of it, you see what I'm saying. It's too 1049 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,520 Speaker 1: easy with the media that doesn't educate people enough about 1050 00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,920 Speaker 1: what really is going on. It's too easy for him 1051 00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:47,480 Speaker 1: to mislead people into thinking like I'm the iconoclast maverick 1052 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,200 Speaker 1: who's doing the right thing, when if you look at 1053 00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:51,480 Speaker 1: the specifics of what he's doing, it's actually deeply disliked. 1054 00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:55,520 Speaker 1: According to the numbers, Joe Manchin has a direct financial 1055 00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:59,520 Speaker 1: interest in maintaining the energy policy correct you have right 1056 00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:04,080 Speaker 1: now and direct like status quo equals Joe Manchin makes 1057 00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:06,680 Speaker 1: more money, and do I think that that impacts what 1058 00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:09,760 Speaker 1: he does one hundred percent? Now, what I will say 1059 00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,319 Speaker 1: that is, you know, gets the point of well, why 1060 00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,640 Speaker 1: is it now that none of these big things can 1061 00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:19,200 Speaker 1: happen anymore when you know it was pre corrupt back 1062 00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,279 Speaker 1: in lbj's day as well. And I do think that 1063 00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:26,120 Speaker 1: part of that is culture war and the fact that 1064 00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:32,680 Speaker 1: because you've had this neoliberal, market driven consensus now for 1065 00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,880 Speaker 1: forty years, which has been on both sides of the aisle, 1066 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,640 Speaker 1: there isn't any sort of belief that, yeah, that the 1067 00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:43,240 Speaker 1: government can actually deliver for you in a meaningful way. 1068 00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,480 Speaker 1: And so instead of like people being in the streets 1069 00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,520 Speaker 1: for Medicare for all during a pandemic, instead, you know, 1070 00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,440 Speaker 1: they're much more focused on these sort of like culture 1071 00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:57,040 Speaker 1: war signaling fights because they don't think either of these 1072 00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:59,839 Speaker 1: parties is going to deliver for them they're right, and 1073 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,200 Speaker 1: and so instead they're like, well, at least I can 1074 00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:04,759 Speaker 1: like show my support for the one that doesn't have 1075 00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:06,839 Speaker 1: contempt for me, and who I am that I feel 1076 00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:08,520 Speaker 1: like is on the right side of these sort of 1077 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:12,200 Speaker 1: like cultural signaling debates that ultimately are very low stakes 1078 00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:13,640 Speaker 1: in terms of the day to day life. All right, 1079 00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:15,399 Speaker 1: let me just say, though, I think it is more 1080 00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:18,600 Speaker 1: corrupt today because it's institutionally corrupt today. So there were 1081 00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:21,320 Speaker 1: a number of Supreme Court decisions that started in nineteen seventies, 1082 00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:23,880 Speaker 1: and number of cases related to that continue up till today. 1083 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,480 Speaker 1: You know, the most recent ones like Citizens United in McCutcheon, 1084 00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:27,920 Speaker 1: but I'm talking going all the way back to like 1085 00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:32,760 Speaker 1: Buckley versus Valleo and First National Bank of Boston versus Ballati. 1086 00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:35,239 Speaker 1: These are the original cases in the nineteen seventies that 1087 00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:40,279 Speaker 1: basically started to legalize money as speech. And so you're 1088 00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:44,960 Speaker 1: you're allowing for legalized bribery and huge campaign contributions from 1089 00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:47,840 Speaker 1: corporations and from billionaires. And it's as a direct result 1090 00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,799 Speaker 1: of that that's why we are where we are today. Yeah, 1091 00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:52,400 Speaker 1: it was corrupt back in the day, of course, with 1092 00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:54,160 Speaker 1: lt Beja. I mean politics always been corup' Sure you've 1093 00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,120 Speaker 1: seen the movie Lincoln, where the way he had to 1094 00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:58,719 Speaker 1: go about you know plotline, the central plotline. Yeah, so 1095 00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:02,200 Speaker 1: like it's always been corrupt. Now it's institutionally corrupt, where Like, 1096 00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:05,840 Speaker 1: in order to even win in DC, it's like you 1097 00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:09,000 Speaker 1: have to take money from all these different lobbyists and 1098 00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:11,440 Speaker 1: all these different industries and then your first and foremost 1099 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:13,799 Speaker 1: representing them. Whereas back in the day, at least with 1100 00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:15,680 Speaker 1: the Democrats for an extended period of time, there was 1101 00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:17,239 Speaker 1: a time when they didn't take corporate money. I mean, 1102 00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:19,239 Speaker 1: that was what Bill Clinton and the DLC was all about, 1103 00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:20,640 Speaker 1: is like, now we're going to be more like Republicans. 1104 00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:22,000 Speaker 1: We're going to take the corporate money. There's a time 1105 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,319 Speaker 1: when they only took like union money and teach your 1106 00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:28,279 Speaker 1: money and lawyer money. Hard to challenge corporate power. It's 1107 00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:32,520 Speaker 1: hard to change the economic status quo. Those things are difficult. 1108 00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,520 Speaker 1: It's easy as hell to get on Twitter and you know, 1109 00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,759 Speaker 1: send out some like you know on the left, some 1110 00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:42,719 Speaker 1: super like woke identitarian thing that ultimately is signaling that 1111 00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:44,560 Speaker 1: I'm a good person, but I'm not actually going to 1112 00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,680 Speaker 1: do anything about like the issues that I claim to 1113 00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:50,120 Speaker 1: care about, and on the right to jump in on 1114 00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,279 Speaker 1: like the don't say gay bill or whatever likes do. 1115 00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:56,240 Speaker 1: Those things are easy to do. It's easy to kneel 1116 00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:58,279 Speaker 1: and can take loth It's a lot harder to like 1117 00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,359 Speaker 1: actually unionize Amazon on workers and make sure that black 1118 00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,680 Speaker 1: lives actually matter in this country. And so the fact 1119 00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:09,480 Speaker 1: that politicians have been rewarded for those cheap and easy 1120 00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:14,040 Speaker 1: culture war displays, well, then that's where the incentives lie. 1121 00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:16,520 Speaker 1: And like I said, I don't think that's a fault 1122 00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:18,680 Speaker 1: of the American people. I think they're right to be 1123 00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:24,200 Speaker 1: skeptical that any of the material projects that they might 1124 00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:27,160 Speaker 1: be interested in, that they might feel really benefit their 1125 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,239 Speaker 1: families are very unlikely to come to pass. And you know, 1126 00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,879 Speaker 1: this past year with the complete crumbling and dissolution of 1127 00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:36,799 Speaker 1: Build Back Better, is as good an example as that's 1128 00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:38,839 Speaker 1: ever been. Yeah, I'll square the circle, and I'll say 1129 00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:41,000 Speaker 1: I think it's corruption, and I do think it's also 1130 00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:45,319 Speaker 1: just lack of lack of political consensus overall. And the 1131 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:47,680 Speaker 1: reason why Joe Manchin gets re elected is because at 1132 00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:50,359 Speaker 1: the end of the day, political consensus among who, uh well, 1133 00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:52,399 Speaker 1: amongst frankly the people who vote. And I think that's 1134 00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:54,520 Speaker 1: the other problem, which is that per what you're saying, 1135 00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:57,680 Speaker 1: one hundred many see but like fifteen dollars minimum wage, 1136 00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,400 Speaker 1: there's a huge political consent. There's a huge political census 1137 00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:02,680 Speaker 1: for the prescription drug that. I mean, there are plenty 1138 00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:05,759 Speaker 1: of the stock band, Like, there are issues that have 1139 00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:08,520 Speaker 1: a mass political consens a lot of them and it 1140 00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,160 Speaker 1: just doesn't matter. But then they don't vote on that 1141 00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,359 Speaker 1: unfortunately like people. But they do when they're when they're 1142 00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,160 Speaker 1: when they're asked to directly vote on the issue as 1143 00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:20,040 Speaker 1: such like remember Trump won the state of Florida, but 1144 00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:22,160 Speaker 1: sixty percent of the Florida voters want vote for the 1145 00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:24,200 Speaker 1: minimum way. I totally agree with you. What I was 1146 00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:26,600 Speaker 1: just saying is that from my from what I've seen 1147 00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:28,480 Speaker 1: with Trump, like, and this is what really broke a 1148 00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:30,360 Speaker 1: lot of the way I look at politics, is you 1149 00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:32,480 Speaker 1: can get ten million more votes and just piss off Libs. 1150 00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,240 Speaker 1: And that's a very that's a sad but powerful lesson, 1151 00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:39,560 Speaker 1: which is if you're an aspiring Republican politician or Joe Manchin, like, 1152 00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:41,400 Speaker 1: what do you learn from that, which is that I 1153 00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:45,840 Speaker 1: can literally win reelection and not do anything right? Right? 1154 00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:49,400 Speaker 1: That's kind of crazy now, so powerful, Yes, you're one 1155 00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:52,640 Speaker 1: hundred percent correct, and that's easy to do. The material 1156 00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:56,720 Speaker 1: politics do move voters. I mean, the people who lost 1157 00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,720 Speaker 1: the child tax credit, they were in favor of Democrats 1158 00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:01,840 Speaker 1: in the terms and now they're in favor of Republic. 1159 00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:05,680 Speaker 1: They shifted more dramatically or not voting than any other group. 1160 00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:09,000 Speaker 1: So it's not that material politics don't influence people or 1161 00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:11,800 Speaker 1: that they don't vote on it. It's that the other 1162 00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:14,160 Speaker 1: stuff is so easy that that's all where all the 1163 00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:17,280 Speaker 1: incentives software politics are. Side show is strong. I know 1164 00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:18,520 Speaker 1: you're trying to move us on. I want to say 1165 00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,840 Speaker 1: of what Crystal said, because I think what we're really 1166 00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:23,920 Speaker 1: getting it here at a meta meta meta level is 1167 00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:27,760 Speaker 1: just like a deep dearth of political talent, because what 1168 00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:31,040 Speaker 1: you are describing, Crystal is the ability to say, Hey, 1169 00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:33,040 Speaker 1: it's like the cookie, It's like the marshmallow test. Right, 1170 00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:37,480 Speaker 1: there's this like super obvious thing, right, But if I 1171 00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:40,919 Speaker 1: wait a second or I think a little deeper, there's 1172 00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:44,120 Speaker 1: this deeper thing. There's a morphous and that's and that's 1173 00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:49,919 Speaker 1: what political greatness is. Right, Like for example, LBJ LBJ LBJ, 1174 00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,240 Speaker 1: he could have just rested on, hey, I'm Kennedy's I'm 1175 00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:56,120 Speaker 1: Kennedy's guy, right, and I just won the biggest presidential 1176 00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:58,960 Speaker 1: election in American history. I am going to chill the 1177 00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:02,000 Speaker 1: thing that makes him rate despite Vietnam, despite all the 1178 00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:05,000 Speaker 1: mistakes towards the end, was really his belief that there 1179 00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:07,560 Speaker 1: is this great society and that is what greatness is. 1180 00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:10,120 Speaker 1: And I don't know, you had a vision, Yes, he had. 1181 00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:12,000 Speaker 1: This reminds me of the conversation we had the State 1182 00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,840 Speaker 1: of the Union. He had a vision and he used 1183 00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:18,080 Speaker 1: whatever was handed to him to make that vision reality. 1184 00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:23,320 Speaker 1: And a great president right now has every crisis at 1185 00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:27,560 Speaker 1: his disposal to use to galvanize the American people behind 1186 00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:31,320 Speaker 1: a true transformational program. But that's not who Joe Biden is, 1187 00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:33,800 Speaker 1: and frankly, it's not what he has ever been, and 1188 00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:35,560 Speaker 1: it's not really what he was elected to be one 1189 00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:38,000 Speaker 1: hundred percent. And you know he's talked about Lincoln. It 1190 00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:39,840 Speaker 1: was the same thing. The central premise of that movie 1191 00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:41,320 Speaker 1: was Lincoln was like, no, I need to pass the 1192 00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:43,640 Speaker 1: thirty in the Amendment right now because I foresee all 1193 00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:46,200 Speaker 1: of these political pitfalls in the future, and so I'm 1194 00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:48,520 Speaker 1: going to use this, you know, lame Duck Congress in 1195 00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:51,600 Speaker 1: order to pass one of the most transformative amendments in 1196 00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:56,880 Speaker 1: American history. LBJ is an example great political talent from 1197 00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:01,080 Speaker 1: let's say We're what today rhymes most with is probably 1198 01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:04,560 Speaker 1: the guilded Age and the age of acrimony post Civil War. Well, 1199 01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:11,400 Speaker 1: politics then sucked, like remember Rutherford B. Hayes, not really yeah, yeah, 1200 01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:19,040 Speaker 1: Grover Cleveland. Grover Cleveland is super cool, right, Like nobody 1201 01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:21,400 Speaker 1: talks about these people for a reason, And it was 1202 01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:23,960 Speaker 1: because at that time we agreed on nothing, we actually 1203 01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:27,080 Speaker 1: got almost nothing done. Calvin Coolidge and all that was, 1204 01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:29,240 Speaker 1: you know, kind of the median center of how people 1205 01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:32,800 Speaker 1: thought about politics or sorry not Calvin Coolidge, Hayes and 1206 01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:36,240 Speaker 1: those those politicians. But then what happened is that a 1207 01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:41,040 Speaker 1: political genius, Theodore Roosevelt comes in and rescues America from 1208 01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:44,200 Speaker 1: the Gilded Age by creating and transforming an entire new 1209 01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:46,560 Speaker 1: era with the progressive era, bringing in this type of 1210 01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:51,440 Speaker 1: energy and change and shock to the system which changes 1211 01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:55,440 Speaker 1: everything forever. And that is actually what we're missing more 1212 01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:57,280 Speaker 1: than anything. So I'll move us on to the next one, 1213 01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:00,360 Speaker 1: which everybody requested here, which is energy policy. And this 1214 01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:04,560 Speaker 1: actually fits very neatly, like a glove into this entire conversation. 1215 01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:07,000 Speaker 1: So I'm reading here from a tweet from Heather Long. 1216 01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:10,160 Speaker 1: We've discussed this on the show. Crude oil prices right 1217 01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:13,520 Speaker 1: now have fallen in the past month, but the average 1218 01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:16,600 Speaker 1: gas price is still above four dollars a gallon. Why 1219 01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:19,800 Speaker 1: gas stations actually make the most of their profits when 1220 01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:22,680 Speaker 1: oil prices fall. Not going to sit here and demonize 1221 01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:26,240 Speaker 1: family owned gas prices because this is a broader, bigger, 1222 01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:29,880 Speaker 1: structural issue. The issue is that right now we have 1223 01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:34,640 Speaker 1: no political talent or thinking as to the long term 1224 01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:38,000 Speaker 1: problem of how do we drop the actual gas price 1225 01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:40,200 Speaker 1: and then beyond that, how do we make sure we're 1226 01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:43,560 Speaker 1: never in this situation again. What's fascinating is that the 1227 01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:47,600 Speaker 1: current drop in price has nothing nothing to do with 1228 01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,640 Speaker 1: Joe Biden, the Strategic Petroleum Reserve and all that, as 1229 01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,520 Speaker 1: we predicted at the time, was going to have extraordinarily 1230 01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:56,400 Speaker 1: limited amount of impact on the long term effective oil. 1231 01:01:56,600 --> 01:01:59,040 Speaker 1: The reason why oil prices are down is because of 1232 01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:01,720 Speaker 1: the Chinese lockdown. Guess what you can't bank on for 1233 01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:04,840 Speaker 1: energy policy. China is going to remain locked down forever, 1234 01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:08,120 Speaker 1: which is going to drop our price. So we have 1235 01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:12,120 Speaker 1: no current strategic thinking in the White House as to 1236 01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:14,440 Speaker 1: and look, we've talked a lot on the show Crystal 1237 01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:18,240 Speaker 1: about nuclear energy. I'm a basically nuclear maximalist, but there's 1238 01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:22,040 Speaker 1: no there's no discussion of this from a national policy perspective. 1239 01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:24,560 Speaker 1: By the way, I actually even checked Tim Scott. The 1240 01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:27,880 Speaker 1: state of South Carolina gets a huge amount of their 1241 01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:31,920 Speaker 1: power from nuclear. There's actually pro nuclear Republicans who are 1242 01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:34,720 Speaker 1: out there. I'm not saying not cringe in many other ways, however, 1243 01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:38,320 Speaker 1: there's no political talent in the White House beyond taking 1244 01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:41,560 Speaker 1: months to arrive at Oh, let's tap the spr I'm 1245 01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:43,280 Speaker 1: I going, what a genius move. You know, It's like, 1246 01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:45,240 Speaker 1: that's what you should have been doing a year ago. 1247 01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:49,000 Speaker 1: It should have They should be taking the current cringe 1248 01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:53,040 Speaker 1: rhetoric around Putin's price hike, take it away from you know, 1249 01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:57,920 Speaker 1: house household goods inflation, and focus something purely and have 1250 01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:01,480 Speaker 1: a real national debate in terms of gas, both on 1251 01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:04,400 Speaker 1: gas in terms of long term energy and in terms 1252 01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:07,080 Speaker 1: of also pointing out the fossil fuel companies. We're raking 1253 01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:09,680 Speaker 1: in profits right now. Go ahead. So we're the number 1254 01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:11,720 Speaker 1: one producer in the world of oil and gas. So 1255 01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:14,480 Speaker 1: I have that right, number one producer. The issue is 1256 01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:17,479 Speaker 1: we outsource most of it. Yeah, we ship. We ship 1257 01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:20,520 Speaker 1: the not vast majority, about half to the global market. 1258 01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:23,120 Speaker 1: And the other problem with oil, which is oil is 1259 01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:28,120 Speaker 1: truly global, is set by global supplies. Part of why 1260 01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:34,160 Speaker 1: the movement towards electric is important because the concept of 1261 01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:37,640 Speaker 1: energy independence kind of doesn't really make any sense when 1262 01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:40,400 Speaker 1: you have a global market. Electricity is something that has 1263 01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:42,720 Speaker 1: to be generated here and then we can deal with 1264 01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:45,560 Speaker 1: what are the sources of that electricity. So let me 1265 01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:49,800 Speaker 1: just say, given that fact, why not nationalize it? I mean, 1266 01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:51,880 Speaker 1: there are a lot of other nations that have ye 1267 01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:54,560 Speaker 1: oil that's nationalized and they have the Sovereign Wealth Fund 1268 01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:57,080 Speaker 1: in Norway for example, right, I mean, there's the whole 1269 01:03:57,120 --> 01:03:59,840 Speaker 1: country is like phenomenally wealthy, and the standard of living 1270 01:03:59,880 --> 01:04:02,600 Speaker 1: is so high, and it's like, it's so weird that 1271 01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,320 Speaker 1: we have that we have oil that's under the ground 1272 01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:08,680 Speaker 1: on our public land. But then a private corporation gets 1273 01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:10,240 Speaker 1: to come in and buy up the rights for pennies 1274 01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:11,800 Speaker 1: on the dollar and be like, well, now this is ours, 1275 01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:13,840 Speaker 1: and then they make a costal amount of profit on it. 1276 01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:16,280 Speaker 1: Why should we allow that? Because not only do they 1277 01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:19,280 Speaker 1: do that, then they capture our political system. We end 1278 01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:21,320 Speaker 1: up with you know, Joe Manchin and all the many 1279 01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:24,880 Speaker 1: more bought off politicians like him driving policy instead of 1280 01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:26,920 Speaker 1: what is actually in the national interest. I mean, this 1281 01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:30,640 Speaker 1: is Matt Brunigg's argument, and let's put aside the political 1282 01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:34,000 Speaker 1: realities and whether there's consensus around this, because we all 1283 01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:36,000 Speaker 1: know that this is not really on the table, correct. 1284 01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:37,800 Speaker 1: But if you're just blue skying what would be the 1285 01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:40,600 Speaker 1: best solution. You have this situation where in the short 1286 01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:44,000 Speaker 1: term you actually want to ramp up production to deal 1287 01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:46,920 Speaker 1: with these price spikes, and in the long term, medium 1288 01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:50,360 Speaker 1: to long term, you want to ramp down production. So sure, 1289 01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:54,040 Speaker 1: could you come up with some elaborate system of tax 1290 01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:57,919 Speaker 1: credits and incentives that basically amount to more giveaways to oiling. Yeah, 1291 01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:01,680 Speaker 1: you could do that, or you could directly manage it, 1292 01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:05,160 Speaker 1: because this is now a market that we don't want 1293 01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:09,240 Speaker 1: to just be subject to market forces and gas company 1294 01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:11,960 Speaker 1: executives doing what they think is going to be most profitable, 1295 01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:15,400 Speaker 1: because we have competing priorities. In fact, you know, their 1296 01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:18,919 Speaker 1: incentives are exactly the opposite right now, because they got 1297 01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:22,840 Speaker 1: burned during COVID. They don't want to invest in producing more. 1298 01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:25,480 Speaker 1: So it's not a problem with pipelines and partments and 1299 01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:27,880 Speaker 1: all this other stuff. It's actually the gas companies don't 1300 01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:30,000 Speaker 1: want to produce more right now because they got burned 1301 01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:32,240 Speaker 1: during COVID, they don't want to invest the resources, and 1302 01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:34,600 Speaker 1: of course over the long term, they will do anything 1303 01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:38,720 Speaker 1: possible to kill what might be, you know, price efficient 1304 01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:42,720 Speaker 1: and sensible renewable solutions to include, you know, the entire 1305 01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:48,120 Speaker 1: array of renewables, including nuclear. So the most elegant solution, 1306 01:05:48,520 --> 01:05:50,840 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes the simplest solution is the best. Like 1307 01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:53,400 Speaker 1: if people are poor, given money, that's ubi right. If 1308 01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:56,160 Speaker 1: people are homeless, give them housing. That's kind of what 1309 01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:59,200 Speaker 1: it is with the oil companies. The most elegant solution 1310 01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:01,440 Speaker 1: is just to actionalize and manage it directly. What do 1311 01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:02,880 Speaker 1: you think, Marshall? The thing is hard for me is 1312 01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:05,800 Speaker 1: I know absolutely nothing about energy policy, so I will 1313 01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:10,240 Speaker 1: and Crystal cheated, not cheated, but took my put up 1314 01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:12,960 Speaker 1: with sense of taking the table she preempted. So wait, 1315 01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:14,720 Speaker 1: what did I do? You were just like, it's not 1316 01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:17,840 Speaker 1: going to happen, so you're here, right, you can't say 1317 01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:19,280 Speaker 1: that one. I mean, it's true, it's not going to 1318 01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:22,280 Speaker 1: So I'm doing answer. I mean, was I left without 1319 01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:24,520 Speaker 1: a take escape route? So I'll just take a different 1320 01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:27,520 Speaker 1: tact and basically just say here's what I'm actually frustrated by. 1321 01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:31,360 Speaker 1: What I'm actually frustrated by is what have we known 1322 01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:37,720 Speaker 1: since basically twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, Rexit, Trump, COVID, Putin's 1323 01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:40,840 Speaker 1: war in Ukraine, all these different bits crazy events are 1324 01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:42,480 Speaker 1: going to happen out of nowhere, and I feel like 1325 01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:48,360 Speaker 1: we are so reactive. So my reluctance around the nationalizing 1326 01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:50,640 Speaker 1: the oil company debate not knowing anything about the topic. 1327 01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:53,360 Speaker 1: It's not even about the practicality, it's not about like 1328 01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:56,560 Speaker 1: the socialism like whatever. It's more just we are doing 1329 01:06:56,600 --> 01:07:00,280 Speaker 1: this in response to this short term event, and I 1330 01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:02,720 Speaker 1: don't know what that fits into what a long term 1331 01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:05,520 Speaker 1: vision of what American society should look like. So, for example, 1332 01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:07,880 Speaker 1: with the supply chain issue, the way I think about 1333 01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:10,480 Speaker 1: it is a good or supply Chaine and then housing. 1334 01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:13,240 Speaker 1: I'll do both. So one supply chains, sager you want 1335 01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:15,480 Speaker 1: to buy something for your kid for Christmas, it will 1336 01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:18,040 Speaker 1: show up like that is the society that I want 1337 01:07:18,080 --> 01:07:19,920 Speaker 1: to live in. With housing. We all agree on this 1338 01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:23,520 Speaker 1: from different perspectives, but like, hey, like if you have 1339 01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:25,280 Speaker 1: I don't even say if you have a job, But basically, 1340 01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:27,320 Speaker 1: if you are a young person, you do not have 1341 01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:30,400 Speaker 1: to think it's crazy that you could get a house someday. Like, 1342 01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:32,680 Speaker 1: those are what visions we want to have. I don't 1343 01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:36,040 Speaker 1: see a similar vision for energy. And if it turns 1344 01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:41,040 Speaker 1: out that a nationalization strategy could further whatever vision that is, 1345 01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:43,080 Speaker 1: I can have that conversation. But that's just what I'm 1346 01:07:43,080 --> 01:07:44,720 Speaker 1: going Let me tell you what the vision was. Yeah, 1347 01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:47,439 Speaker 1: the vision was the Green New Deal. I mean that 1348 01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:50,880 Speaker 1: is not only I don't know what the polling is 1349 01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:53,280 Speaker 1: now because it's been so demonized and they messed up 1350 01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:54,520 Speaker 1: the roll out of it, and they mess up the 1351 01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:59,640 Speaker 1: rollout and they may it's just every left wing ideas, 1352 01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:04,080 Speaker 1: the concept of the big concept of like this is 1353 01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:07,040 Speaker 1: a national project. We're all going to engage in the 1354 01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:10,440 Speaker 1: concept of we're not going to leave coal miners behind. 1355 01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:13,440 Speaker 1: We're not going to say learn to code, good luck. Right, 1356 01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:17,320 Speaker 1: We're going to have a holistic transformation of our economy 1357 01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:19,800 Speaker 1: that moves us away from what is not only bad 1358 01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:23,160 Speaker 1: for the planet, but is a disaster for our national security. 1359 01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:28,120 Speaker 1: That framework was is actually a good framework, That is 1360 01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:31,320 Speaker 1: what we should be doing. It's just yeah, the left, 1361 01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:34,360 Speaker 1: you know, failed on some of the specifics. It gets 1362 01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:38,360 Speaker 1: completely demonized by everybody across the board. And so now 1363 01:08:38,360 --> 01:08:41,719 Speaker 1: if you propose anything that even looks like it, you're considered, 1364 01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:44,479 Speaker 1: you know, foolish and ridiculous and absurd and all the rest. 1365 01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:47,360 Speaker 1: But the reality is, you know, this is even if 1366 01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:49,080 Speaker 1: you don't give a shit about the planet, I think 1367 01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:52,559 Speaker 1: everybody should be very clear that this is a massive 1368 01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:55,920 Speaker 1: national security issue for US right now. And the fact 1369 01:08:55,960 --> 01:08:58,519 Speaker 1: that we're like, oh, we care about human rights, so 1370 01:08:58,520 --> 01:08:59,960 Speaker 1: we're not going to have Russian oil, We're going to 1371 01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:04,200 Speaker 1: have Saudi oil is completely you know, silly and absurd. 1372 01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:07,160 Speaker 1: When I think of a green new deal, intuitively, I 1373 01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:09,240 Speaker 1: think probably the same thing that you think, which is like, 1374 01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:15,040 Speaker 1: let's do this gigantic, nationally mobilizing project where you I 1375 01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:17,960 Speaker 1: love the idea of making the US infrastructure number one 1376 01:09:18,040 --> 01:09:20,080 Speaker 1: in the world, and by a mile, like, I don't 1377 01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:22,000 Speaker 1: just want to update it. I don't want to just 1378 01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:23,439 Speaker 1: just want to, you know, improve it a little bit. 1379 01:09:23,479 --> 01:09:25,439 Speaker 1: I want to have the number one infrastructure that's the 1380 01:09:25,560 --> 01:09:27,439 Speaker 1: envy of the world. So I think about that, and 1381 01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:30,599 Speaker 1: I think about transitioning to green and renewable technology. Definitely 1382 01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:33,600 Speaker 1: open to nuclear I'm not sure if the technology is 1383 01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:35,559 Speaker 1: there yet, but thorium is supposed to be like nuclear 1384 01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:38,360 Speaker 1: but meltdownproof. So there's also a little mini reactors now, 1385 01:09:38,360 --> 01:09:40,479 Speaker 1: which are even cooler. See, there's a million things we 1386 01:09:40,520 --> 01:09:43,840 Speaker 1: can do and should do down that path. But I'm 1387 01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:46,559 Speaker 1: sorry the progressive screwed it up to the high heavens 1388 01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:50,240 Speaker 1: because the bill didn't even end up being what I 1389 01:09:50,360 --> 01:09:52,360 Speaker 1: just described. The bill ended up being let's just put 1390 01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:54,479 Speaker 1: every single left wing policy into it and call it 1391 01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:56,920 Speaker 1: the Green New Deal, and it was ripe for attack. Now. 1392 01:09:56,920 --> 01:09:59,680 Speaker 1: I would defend almost every individual piece of the Green 1393 01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:01,720 Speaker 1: New Deal on its own merits, but you can't just 1394 01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:03,160 Speaker 1: put it all together and say this is the Green 1395 01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:05,120 Speaker 1: New Deal when the original idea wasn't supposed to be 1396 01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:07,160 Speaker 1: that at all. So I'm actually really frustrated with the 1397 01:10:07,160 --> 01:10:09,800 Speaker 1: Democrats on this because you had an idea that was 1398 01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:11,639 Speaker 1: a good idea, that was polling it like eighty plus 1399 01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:13,920 Speaker 1: something percent, and then you shot yourself in the foot 1400 01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:15,920 Speaker 1: and made it easy for idiots like Sean Hannity to 1401 01:10:16,240 --> 01:10:18,599 Speaker 1: go out on his show every night and just destroy it. 1402 01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:20,559 Speaker 1: Let me let me also throw this into the mix, 1403 01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:24,759 Speaker 1: because Gallup just did some polling on support for climate 1404 01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:28,719 Speaker 1: change policies and even I've even seen, you know, even 1405 01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:31,320 Speaker 1: in West virgin which is like caricatured as. Oh, they 1406 01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:33,760 Speaker 1: just want to stay on coal forever. Like even in 1407 01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:36,599 Speaker 1: West Virginia, that's not at all the case. They would 1408 01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:40,240 Speaker 1: to have jobs. Yeah. Sure, but listen, anybody whose family 1409 01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:42,160 Speaker 1: members have worked in a coal mine is not dying 1410 01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:43,800 Speaker 1: for their kids to also work in the coal mine. 1411 01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:46,360 Speaker 1: I can assure you of that. So on you know, 1412 01:10:46,479 --> 01:10:50,080 Speaker 1: these basic measures, providing tax credits to American zoo install 1413 01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:52,679 Speaker 1: clean energy systems like solar power in their home eighty 1414 01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:56,200 Speaker 1: nine percent, favor providing tax incentives to business to promote 1415 01:10:56,200 --> 01:10:59,120 Speaker 1: their use of windsul or nuclear seventy five percent, setting 1416 01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:02,320 Speaker 1: higher fuel efficient standards to seventy one percent, establishing strict 1417 01:11:02,400 --> 01:11:04,240 Speaker 1: limits on the release of methane in the production of 1418 01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:07,320 Speaker 1: natural gast sixty two percent, providing tax caris to individuals 1419 01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:10,679 Speaker 1: who buy electric vehicle sixty one percent, and spending federal 1420 01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:13,120 Speaker 1: money to increase the number of electric vehicle charging stations 1421 01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:15,840 Speaker 1: in the US fifty nine percent. If you pull overall 1422 01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:18,479 Speaker 1: on some of the you know, top proposals to move 1423 01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:22,280 Speaker 1: US towards renewable energy and away from fossil fuel, it's 1424 01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:25,640 Speaker 1: very popular, even in states that would be you know 1425 01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:29,920 Speaker 1: that where they have significant jobs dependent on the current 1426 01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:32,519 Speaker 1: status quo. So this again comes down to an issue 1427 01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:38,000 Speaker 1: of corruption and capture of Washington, because the politicians are 1428 01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:41,400 Speaker 1: not at all responsive to that sort of pulling. What 1429 01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:44,320 Speaker 1: they are ultimately responsible to is, you know, the fossil 1430 01:11:44,360 --> 01:11:48,599 Speaker 1: fuel industry. And that's why it's not just that their 1431 01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:52,400 Speaker 1: incentives are misaligned with what we actually want to see 1432 01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:54,600 Speaker 1: and do energy policy in the short term and the 1433 01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:57,320 Speaker 1: long term. It's that their capture of the political system 1434 01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:00,639 Speaker 1: makes it impossible to move in a better direction. Go ahead, Marshall, 1435 01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:03,880 Speaker 1: quick this question for the two of you. Super curious 1436 01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:05,679 Speaker 1: for your answer, because there's a point of tension here 1437 01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:08,880 Speaker 1: between the Green New Deal vision point, which is very 1438 01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:12,519 Speaker 1: well taken, and where this started, which was the price 1439 01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:16,320 Speaker 1: of gas is too high. Because like you're right too, 1440 01:12:16,320 --> 01:12:18,120 Speaker 1: in the cause of the conversation, say, let's put aside 1441 01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:20,720 Speaker 1: people who like, oh, a quador change, But Mike, that's 1442 01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:22,120 Speaker 1: actually part of the issue, right and if you talk 1443 01:12:22,160 --> 01:12:25,320 Speaker 1: to people who are in climate policy scientists, et cetera, 1444 01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:28,679 Speaker 1: A big issue. Once again, right wing listeners go away 1445 01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:31,240 Speaker 1: for a second. A big issue is actually gas probably 1446 01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:33,720 Speaker 1: should be more expensive, because part of the way that 1447 01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:36,080 Speaker 1: we transition to a clean energy future is that we 1448 01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:38,519 Speaker 1: focus away from those sorts of policies. So I'm just 1449 01:12:38,520 --> 01:12:42,240 Speaker 1: curious about the contradiction between Green New Deal's image of 1450 01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:44,080 Speaker 1: a world where we're using just less gas. I think 1451 01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:48,200 Speaker 1: the gas should be more expensive view is sort of 1452 01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:52,880 Speaker 1: very libertarian. It's like, we're going to force people. We're yeah, 1453 01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:56,160 Speaker 1: we're going to force people like through their suffering, to 1454 01:12:56,240 --> 01:12:58,960 Speaker 1: get off of gas and drive less. That's not the 1455 01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:02,240 Speaker 1: only direction you have to go in. I mean, you know, 1456 01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:05,720 Speaker 1: an alternative example, which is very simple and something that 1457 01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:07,639 Speaker 1: Biden has talked about, but of course they haven't really done, 1458 01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:10,760 Speaker 1: is making the price of electric vehicles a lot more affordable. 1459 01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:13,280 Speaker 1: And then, by the way, when you reduce consumption of gas, 1460 01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:16,360 Speaker 1: gas prices go down, and so it makes it easier 1461 01:13:16,360 --> 01:13:19,360 Speaker 1: for working class people who are still dependent on, you know, 1462 01:13:19,439 --> 01:13:22,400 Speaker 1: fossil fuel driven vehicles to be able to survive and 1463 01:13:22,439 --> 01:13:23,760 Speaker 1: get to work and do the things that they need 1464 01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:25,720 Speaker 1: to do. Chris, what you're really saying is that I 1465 01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:30,200 Speaker 1: am so captured by neoliberalism that to be a lefty 1466 01:13:30,200 --> 01:13:36,120 Speaker 1: climate explainer, I actually I'll say this though, That's an 1467 01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:38,679 Speaker 1: important thing, and that gets to a real dynamic whenever 1468 01:13:38,720 --> 01:13:43,840 Speaker 1: I hear the grassroots Republican response to Green New deals, 1469 01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:45,320 Speaker 1: like they want to make it more expensive for me 1470 01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:47,320 Speaker 1: to drive, that's that's the number one you want to 1471 01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:50,880 Speaker 1: increase my energy bill, And this is where they want 1472 01:13:50,880 --> 01:13:53,840 Speaker 1: to make it so I can't eat meat, right, and 1473 01:13:53,880 --> 01:13:55,880 Speaker 1: there are legitimate strains of that. I don't want to 1474 01:13:55,880 --> 01:13:58,240 Speaker 1: downplay it. There's like some restaurant, the best restaurant here 1475 01:13:58,240 --> 01:14:00,320 Speaker 1: in New York, which apparently doesn't serve meat anymore. But 1476 01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:03,719 Speaker 1: more what I'm pointing to is that cost is still 1477 01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:06,840 Speaker 1: king for the majority of consumers. So this is where 1478 01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:09,360 Speaker 1: you can't let idiocracy get in the way of it. 1479 01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:11,479 Speaker 1: So we're here in New York City. I've talked about 1480 01:14:11,479 --> 01:14:14,679 Speaker 1: this before on the show, but they closed by Cuomo 1481 01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:18,120 Speaker 1: at the pressure of environmental activists. Closes the Indian Point 1482 01:14:18,200 --> 01:14:21,080 Speaker 1: nuclear power plant, which was supplying a decent amount of 1483 01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:24,080 Speaker 1: power here to the city, and now kan Ed is 1484 01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:27,360 Speaker 1: doing natural gas fired plants and all, by the way, 1485 01:14:27,360 --> 01:14:30,280 Speaker 1: because of the whole Russia thing, it's also more expensive 1486 01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:33,519 Speaker 1: for consumers. So consumers got screwed. And I'm not blaming. Look, 1487 01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:36,960 Speaker 1: I do, I will blame the blinders of environmental activists. 1488 01:14:37,040 --> 01:14:39,280 Speaker 1: But what I'm pointing to is that one of the 1489 01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:42,920 Speaker 1: key points from this is that through federal government substy 1490 01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:45,960 Speaker 1: Let's be honest, were already subsized these fossil fuel companies dramatically. Yeah. 1491 01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:48,240 Speaker 1: One are the problems that we have right now is 1492 01:14:48,280 --> 01:14:53,160 Speaker 1: that we don't have technology neutral tax credits. So right now, 1493 01:14:53,200 --> 01:14:55,479 Speaker 1: a lot of the tax credits that go for renewable 1494 01:14:55,560 --> 01:14:58,320 Speaker 1: energy go towards solar and wind. I'm not saying solar 1495 01:14:58,320 --> 01:15:00,960 Speaker 1: and wind are bad, but from a capacity perspective, they 1496 01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:03,680 Speaker 1: don't compete at all whenever it comes to nuclear. So 1497 01:15:04,040 --> 01:15:08,000 Speaker 1: let's just make it technology neutral, obviously exclude fossil fuel, 1498 01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:09,519 Speaker 1: make it so that you have to hit a certain 1499 01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:13,240 Speaker 1: carbon threshold which is below natural gas, and let's see 1500 01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:15,679 Speaker 1: who wins. And these are the types of things where 1501 01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:19,000 Speaker 1: I actually, well, maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. I 1502 01:15:19,040 --> 01:15:22,479 Speaker 1: think you could probably pass that in some form. The 1503 01:15:22,560 --> 01:15:26,120 Speaker 1: problem that we have right now is that, to Marshall's point, 1504 01:15:26,439 --> 01:15:28,880 Speaker 1: the secret, the dirty secret, is that a lot of 1505 01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:33,280 Speaker 1: people neolib kind of climate people will basically say, yeah, 1506 01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:36,320 Speaker 1: you have to make it more expensive it's by the way, 1507 01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:39,240 Speaker 1: this isn't just neolibs, okay, Like even a lot of 1508 01:15:39,320 --> 01:15:42,840 Speaker 1: lefty climate right right behind closed doors, they're like, no, 1509 01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:45,040 Speaker 1: we need to make gas more expensive for people so 1510 01:15:45,040 --> 01:15:47,120 Speaker 1: that they are forced to buy elect and like, I 1511 01:15:47,200 --> 01:15:50,479 Speaker 1: just reject that one. Well, but my point and your 1512 01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:53,400 Speaker 1: point as well, in nationalizing it is that you nationalize 1513 01:15:53,400 --> 01:15:55,519 Speaker 1: the industry so that you can do the things that 1514 01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:57,800 Speaker 1: make sense with it. And one of the things I 1515 01:15:57,840 --> 01:15:59,839 Speaker 1: would do is make sure gas prices in the interim 1516 01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:02,400 Speaker 1: until we get on renewable technology, make sure it's cheap 1517 01:16:02,439 --> 01:16:04,479 Speaker 1: and affordable for working people. So now there may be 1518 01:16:04,520 --> 01:16:07,080 Speaker 1: someone who's free. Me's likely to drive right right, so 1519 01:16:08,160 --> 01:16:10,960 Speaker 1: which connects to our housing the conversation too. There may 1520 01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:12,920 Speaker 1: be people who disagree with me on that, but don't 1521 01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:14,360 Speaker 1: I don't even think it's that many, to be honest, 1522 01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:16,800 Speaker 1: I think most lefties who well, let me say also, 1523 01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:20,160 Speaker 1: there is a split, kind of a generational divide in 1524 01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:23,280 Speaker 1: the environmental movement, which I can't say that I'm deeply 1525 01:16:23,320 --> 01:16:25,560 Speaker 1: steeped in, but I have enough of the understanding of 1526 01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:28,040 Speaker 1: the contours of it, which is, you know, originally the 1527 01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:30,439 Speaker 1: environmentalist movement when it was Earth Day and all this. 1528 01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:33,880 Speaker 1: It wasn't climate was one of the things that was 1529 01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:36,959 Speaker 1: just starting to come to the surface as a major issue, 1530 01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:39,400 Speaker 1: and there was more of just a sort of anti 1531 01:16:39,479 --> 01:16:44,240 Speaker 1: development stance in general. The younger general Sunrise and the 1532 01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:46,920 Speaker 1: Green New Deal type of folks, well, first of all, 1533 01:16:46,920 --> 01:16:51,479 Speaker 1: they're laser focused on climate as the number one issue 1534 01:16:51,560 --> 01:16:54,479 Speaker 1: over and above all else, and so they're much more 1535 01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:58,240 Speaker 1: into like building, right, So you know, the opposition of 1536 01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:01,320 Speaker 1: the activists in New York was based like, we don't 1537 01:17:01,320 --> 01:17:06,040 Speaker 1: want to build stuff anything because we're just generally anti development. 1538 01:17:06,360 --> 01:17:09,640 Speaker 1: Whereas in fact, if you're going to transition to a 1539 01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:12,160 Speaker 1: different energy source, you're gonna have to build a lot 1540 01:17:12,240 --> 01:17:14,560 Speaker 1: of stuff. You're going to need a whole new infrastructure 1541 01:17:14,600 --> 01:17:17,400 Speaker 1: to your point to be able to support that. So 1542 01:17:17,960 --> 01:17:22,000 Speaker 1: there's also this kind of like ideological and generational divide 1543 01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:24,960 Speaker 1: within the environmental movement, and I think the younger generations 1544 01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:27,240 Speaker 1: have a much better sort of grasp of what would 1545 01:17:27,240 --> 01:17:30,479 Speaker 1: actually be required, and also, by the way, I think 1546 01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:33,559 Speaker 1: I think are better on the issue you're talking about, Marshall, 1547 01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:36,040 Speaker 1: because what I really found appealing about the Green New 1548 01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:39,760 Speaker 1: Deal to start with is the fact that central to 1549 01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:42,880 Speaker 1: it is we are not leaving people behind, you know, 1550 01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:45,840 Speaker 1: and other in the social democracies that people like Kyle 1551 01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:48,160 Speaker 1: and I love to hold up as great examples, they 1552 01:17:48,200 --> 01:17:51,240 Speaker 1: do have a different orientation towards these things where they're 1553 01:17:51,240 --> 01:17:54,280 Speaker 1: not obsessed with the jobs. They're obsessed with the workers. 1554 01:17:54,680 --> 01:17:58,920 Speaker 1: The workers are central, and so if an industry you know, 1555 01:17:59,120 --> 01:18:02,400 Speaker 1: is damaging to the country, damaging to the world, they're 1556 01:18:02,439 --> 01:18:04,960 Speaker 1: okay with it going away because their commitment is to 1557 01:18:04,960 --> 01:18:07,160 Speaker 1: the workers and they know they have a safety net 1558 01:18:07,240 --> 01:18:10,200 Speaker 1: and program in place to make sure those workers are 1559 01:18:10,200 --> 01:18:12,400 Speaker 1: going to be okay. And I think that's the way 1560 01:18:12,439 --> 01:18:14,479 Speaker 1: we need to think about things more in America, rather 1561 01:18:14,479 --> 01:18:16,720 Speaker 1: than holding on to Oh my god. But if we 1562 01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:20,680 Speaker 1: have single payer, then the health insurance gouals are not 1563 01:18:20,720 --> 01:18:22,240 Speaker 1: going to have a job. No. If you have a 1564 01:18:22,280 --> 01:18:24,240 Speaker 1: commitment to the working people and you make sure that 1565 01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:26,720 Speaker 1: they're going to be okay, then you can phase out 1566 01:18:26,760 --> 01:18:30,400 Speaker 1: industries that are damaging to the population overall. Yeah. Let 1567 01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:32,080 Speaker 1: me just say real quick, just to rewind for a 1568 01:18:32,120 --> 01:18:35,599 Speaker 1: second on the nuclear point. So I always view myself 1569 01:18:35,640 --> 01:18:39,080 Speaker 1: as relatively agnostic on the issue of nuclear energy, and 1570 01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:41,639 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess in modern times, maybe I'm leaning 1571 01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:44,439 Speaker 1: slightly more towards Okay. I mean, all the other options 1572 01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:46,639 Speaker 1: seem to be worse, But you have to acknowledge there 1573 01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:49,160 Speaker 1: is sort of a PR problem for nuclear because when 1574 01:18:49,200 --> 01:18:51,800 Speaker 1: people think the only problem is PR and this I get, 1575 01:18:52,360 --> 01:18:57,720 Speaker 1: but it is also a real problem. You have, okay, Bukushima. 1576 01:18:57,880 --> 01:19:00,560 Speaker 1: Hold on, if you have three mile Island, you have Ukushima, 1577 01:19:00,560 --> 01:19:02,880 Speaker 1: you have true island. Didn't kill anybody. By the way, 1578 01:19:03,120 --> 01:19:08,519 Speaker 1: fired about Chernobyl in the past few weeks, Kyle, what's okay? Okay, 1579 01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:12,400 Speaker 1: we don't live in the Soviet we don't. But no, No, 1580 01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:15,479 Speaker 1: A problem with nuclear, this is a widely understood problem 1581 01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:17,640 Speaker 1: with nuclear is that one of the big issues with 1582 01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:21,559 Speaker 1: it is political instability and incompetence. And I'm not naive 1583 01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:23,160 Speaker 1: enough to think that this thing that we're doing right 1584 01:19:23,200 --> 01:19:25,439 Speaker 1: now in the United States is definitely on solid ground 1585 01:19:25,479 --> 01:19:27,120 Speaker 1: and going to last a really long time. I mean, 1586 01:19:27,120 --> 01:19:29,000 Speaker 1: for all we know, this thing could crumble apart within 1587 01:19:29,080 --> 01:19:31,200 Speaker 1: just a couple of decades. So all I'm saying is 1588 01:19:31,479 --> 01:19:34,640 Speaker 1: that's a big asterix on, let's do nuclear power. You 1589 01:19:34,720 --> 01:19:37,360 Speaker 1: need to have a very high level of competence, and 1590 01:19:37,400 --> 01:19:39,080 Speaker 1: you need to have political stability and right now the 1591 01:19:39,120 --> 01:19:41,360 Speaker 1: world is definitely lacking in political stability. That's not to 1592 01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:43,400 Speaker 1: say that the other things are better, because they're not, 1593 01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:45,360 Speaker 1: but it is to say there are issues there. I 1594 01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:48,559 Speaker 1: hear your point. Natural gas is still worse. Natural gas 1595 01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:51,960 Speaker 1: also has instability in its markets, releases fifty something percent 1596 01:19:52,320 --> 01:19:54,320 Speaker 1: more carbon, and if you look at this on the 1597 01:19:54,320 --> 01:19:59,160 Speaker 1: industrial scale, more people have died from smog, pollution, other 1598 01:19:59,320 --> 01:20:03,360 Speaker 1: chemical accidents. And look, am I saying understood? Scary? Yeah, 1599 01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:05,720 Speaker 1: it's scary, understood, But I'm saying it's a false dichotomy 1600 01:20:05,720 --> 01:20:08,040 Speaker 1: that we should be like thorium. Like I said before, 1601 01:20:08,080 --> 01:20:10,000 Speaker 1: if they could get the technology on thorium enough to 1602 01:20:10,040 --> 01:20:12,760 Speaker 1: the point where we could do these thorium facilities, then 1603 01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:15,479 Speaker 1: I'm all in. Then you've persuaded me on nuclear. But 1604 01:20:15,520 --> 01:20:18,080 Speaker 1: there is also an issue with cost where it cost 1605 01:20:18,160 --> 01:20:20,679 Speaker 1: a lot. Yeah, it's there have been massive costs. Everyone's 1606 01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:24,679 Speaker 1: now I understand because we talked to Lovely what's her name, Meredith? Meredith, 1607 01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:28,800 Speaker 1: your grandma, I think made some wonderful She was lovely 1608 01:20:28,840 --> 01:20:31,120 Speaker 1: and she made some great points about how Yeah, because 1609 01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:33,360 Speaker 1: when you're creating a one off, like if you build 1610 01:20:33,520 --> 01:20:35,800 Speaker 1: just one car, it's going to cost millions of dollars. 1611 01:20:35,840 --> 01:20:37,880 Speaker 1: If you're doing this routinely and you have a process 1612 01:20:37,880 --> 01:20:40,240 Speaker 1: and you have economies of scale, then it could be 1613 01:20:40,400 --> 01:20:42,840 Speaker 1: more reasonable from a cost perspective. But that is also 1614 01:20:42,880 --> 01:20:47,479 Speaker 1: another legitimate nuclear totally totally legitimate. I would just say that, yeah, 1615 01:20:47,520 --> 01:20:49,960 Speaker 1: it might be cheaper to buy a build low capacity 1616 01:20:49,960 --> 01:20:52,040 Speaker 1: power like wind and all that, but then you still 1617 01:20:52,040 --> 01:20:53,960 Speaker 1: have to have natural gas in order to back it up, right, 1618 01:20:54,040 --> 01:20:58,120 Speaker 1: doesn't make a whole lot of sense. One of the 1619 01:20:58,160 --> 01:21:00,720 Speaker 1: things that people wanted to hear about our premium subscribers 1620 01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:04,839 Speaker 1: was the geopolitical realignment, and I think that in terms 1621 01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:07,320 Speaker 1: of the top line stories that are coming out of it, 1622 01:21:07,560 --> 01:21:10,600 Speaker 1: We've talked on the show about NATO expansion, but I 1623 01:21:10,640 --> 01:21:14,320 Speaker 1: think the more interesting metapoint is what does the balance 1624 01:21:14,360 --> 01:21:17,360 Speaker 1: of power in the world look like right now? So 1625 01:21:18,120 --> 01:21:20,680 Speaker 1: previous to this we would have set previous to the 1626 01:21:20,720 --> 01:21:24,920 Speaker 1: Russian invasion, Russia number eleventh largest GDP in the world, 1627 01:21:25,320 --> 01:21:28,840 Speaker 1: literally less than Italy. America is moving away from this. 1628 01:21:29,240 --> 01:21:31,840 Speaker 1: The European Union plays a central role in terms of 1629 01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:34,240 Speaker 1: our cultural ties, but let's all be honest, that's not 1630 01:21:34,320 --> 01:21:37,639 Speaker 1: really where America's focus on. It was all China all 1631 01:21:37,680 --> 01:21:40,479 Speaker 1: the time. In terms of our discussion right now, it 1632 01:21:40,520 --> 01:21:43,559 Speaker 1: feels very much like it's nineteen seventy two, like we're 1633 01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:46,559 Speaker 1: talking about it's all Russia, it's all NATO, it's all 1634 01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:49,559 Speaker 1: Dayton or rollback. We have to decide on like how 1635 01:21:49,560 --> 01:21:52,120 Speaker 1: we're going to confront this. And yet at the same time, 1636 01:21:52,479 --> 01:21:55,400 Speaker 1: we have India, the largest democracy in the world, not 1637 01:21:55,479 --> 01:21:58,120 Speaker 1: joining with us in terms of their sanctions, not really 1638 01:21:58,200 --> 01:22:02,200 Speaker 1: joining the Western Bloc. We're still focused on NATO expansion 1639 01:22:02,479 --> 01:22:06,120 Speaker 1: China in the China lockdown, as we're seeing in real 1640 01:22:06,160 --> 01:22:10,800 Speaker 1: time massive impact on our economy, on our supply chain 1641 01:22:10,840 --> 01:22:13,000 Speaker 1: in a way that didn't exist at all. So I 1642 01:22:13,000 --> 01:22:16,760 Speaker 1: feel like we're living in this parallel world where our 1643 01:22:17,320 --> 01:22:22,040 Speaker 1: foreign policy media attention and focus is living in one year, 1644 01:22:22,360 --> 01:22:25,040 Speaker 1: and then on the same time, our actual interests are 1645 01:22:25,080 --> 01:22:29,920 Speaker 1: fading away with an almost on autopilot without any of 1646 01:22:29,960 --> 01:22:32,720 Speaker 1: the sort of debate and things that we need in 1647 01:22:32,800 --> 01:22:36,559 Speaker 1: order to avoid a possible conflagration in the future. Go ahead, 1648 01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:39,120 Speaker 1: I want to I want to push back on your frame. Sure, 1649 01:22:39,360 --> 01:22:43,519 Speaker 1: So A, I did an episode of Bridge Colby on this, 1650 01:22:44,160 --> 01:22:45,920 Speaker 1: so you know, friend of the show obviously, and I 1651 01:22:45,920 --> 01:22:48,360 Speaker 1: don't want to claim we can do everything all at once. 1652 01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:51,559 Speaker 1: What we can recognize that what happens in one theater 1653 01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:55,439 Speaker 1: affects another theater. So for example, this just happened yesterday 1654 01:22:55,479 --> 01:22:57,320 Speaker 1: and they're like reporting this is a little in conclusives. 1655 01:22:57,320 --> 01:22:59,960 Speaker 1: I don't want to overstate, but the flagship of Russia 1656 01:23:00,160 --> 01:23:03,240 Speaker 1: Black Sea Fleet was just at a minimum, it probably 1657 01:23:03,280 --> 01:23:05,880 Speaker 1: wasn't sunk, but at a minimum, it was taken out 1658 01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:07,439 Speaker 1: of the fight. So the fire has been out, Yeah, 1659 01:23:07,479 --> 01:23:09,599 Speaker 1: the fire butt, but it's been. It's been. It's been 1660 01:23:10,120 --> 01:23:15,479 Speaker 1: effectively taken out of the fight by atune miss by Neptuo, 1661 01:23:15,479 --> 01:23:19,240 Speaker 1: by the Ukrainian built like surface to you know, water 1662 01:23:19,520 --> 01:23:22,840 Speaker 1: missile not the technical term. Obviously, here's why this matters 1663 01:23:22,880 --> 01:23:25,599 Speaker 1: with the China issue. This is the definition of something 1664 01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:27,800 Speaker 1: that makes the Chinese when they're thinking about a Taiwanese 1665 01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:30,960 Speaker 1: invasion that would involve like an amphibious actual aspect is 1666 01:23:30,960 --> 01:23:33,840 Speaker 1: actually deeply important because the number one takeaway from the 1667 01:23:33,920 --> 01:23:36,600 Speaker 1: Ukrainian conflict. Now this, by the way, I am not 1668 01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:39,040 Speaker 1: a I'm like a moderate interventionist and maybe very clear 1669 01:23:39,240 --> 01:23:41,479 Speaker 1: so no no fly zone. I didn't support the MEGS, 1670 01:23:41,640 --> 01:23:43,759 Speaker 1: no NATO boots on the ground all those different bits, 1671 01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:47,439 Speaker 1: but China is seeing so much of the past two months, 1672 01:23:47,680 --> 01:23:50,839 Speaker 1: and the very clear implication is wow, like invading another 1673 01:23:50,920 --> 01:23:54,360 Speaker 1: country in the year twenty twenty two is a shit show. 1674 01:23:54,720 --> 01:23:56,519 Speaker 1: And there's been very good reporting that this is almost 1675 01:23:56,560 --> 01:23:58,840 Speaker 1: certainly affecting how the Chinese are thinking about this. So 1676 01:23:59,080 --> 01:24:01,280 Speaker 1: I want to agree with you that. And once again, 1677 01:24:01,320 --> 01:24:03,000 Speaker 1: there are people on my side who probably talk this 1678 01:24:03,080 --> 01:24:05,320 Speaker 1: way and they say, like, haha, always people say that 1679 01:24:05,320 --> 01:24:07,559 Speaker 1: we're going to pivot to Asia, They're stupid. The future 1680 01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:09,600 Speaker 1: is in Europe. The future is not in Europe, but 1681 01:24:09,880 --> 01:24:13,320 Speaker 1: what happens in Europe affects Asia, and that should drive 1682 01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:15,839 Speaker 1: how we think about this like that should so, for example, 1683 01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:18,439 Speaker 1: what debates should we be having right now? From my perspective, 1684 01:24:18,479 --> 01:24:20,040 Speaker 1: the debate should be, Hey, if you are in the 1685 01:24:20,040 --> 01:24:22,599 Speaker 1: Taiwanese government right now, how are you getting the equivalent 1686 01:24:22,600 --> 01:24:24,920 Speaker 1: of Neptune missiles to make sure that your country is 1687 01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:27,720 Speaker 1: kept safe so that Chinese do not invade in the 1688 01:24:27,720 --> 01:24:29,800 Speaker 1: first place and you have actual deterrence. I think that's 1689 01:24:29,840 --> 01:24:31,400 Speaker 1: a good point. Go oh, go ahead, Oh no, I 1690 01:24:31,439 --> 01:24:33,519 Speaker 1: was just going to say, I honestly, if China wants 1691 01:24:33,560 --> 01:24:37,439 Speaker 1: to take Taiwan, they either do it and just get 1692 01:24:37,439 --> 01:24:39,720 Speaker 1: away with it, or it's a similar situation to what 1693 01:24:39,720 --> 01:24:42,320 Speaker 1: we're seeing now in Ukraine, where they're just bogged down 1694 01:24:42,360 --> 01:24:44,920 Speaker 1: in an extended fight. That's all. But in terms of 1695 01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:47,439 Speaker 1: like what can the US actually do about it, well, 1696 01:24:47,960 --> 01:24:50,400 Speaker 1: I mean we're learning now with what's happening in Ukraine, 1697 01:24:50,560 --> 01:24:54,000 Speaker 1: like when you're talking about Afghanistan, when you're talking about Iraq, 1698 01:24:54,040 --> 01:24:56,519 Speaker 1: when you're talking about countries that we could basically bully 1699 01:24:56,560 --> 01:24:59,320 Speaker 1: into submission, like yeah, then we go to war. But 1700 01:24:59,320 --> 01:25:01,719 Speaker 1: when it's a cut like Vladir Putin has more nukes 1701 01:25:01,760 --> 01:25:03,840 Speaker 1: than we do, and so we just we can't do 1702 01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:05,800 Speaker 1: anything except you know, arms on the ground or whatever. 1703 01:25:05,840 --> 01:25:08,439 Speaker 1: And so I think that that's that's the reality of 1704 01:25:08,439 --> 01:25:11,599 Speaker 1: the situation in my opinion. But to your question about 1705 01:25:11,960 --> 01:25:16,360 Speaker 1: basically unipolar world versus multipolar world, I think there's no 1706 01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:19,559 Speaker 1: doubt that it's really the unipolar world. The US of 1707 01:25:19,560 --> 01:25:23,280 Speaker 1: the world's sole superpower that's definitely going away. And what 1708 01:25:23,360 --> 01:25:26,599 Speaker 1: you're seeing now is Russia is reliant on China in 1709 01:25:26,720 --> 01:25:29,800 Speaker 1: order to really just function. Yeah, I mean we had 1710 01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:33,320 Speaker 1: when we put those swift banking sanctions, then they immediately 1711 01:25:33,400 --> 01:25:36,440 Speaker 1: China immediately welcome them into you know, whatever their equivalent 1712 01:25:36,520 --> 01:25:39,720 Speaker 1: for banking is. And what you're seeing also with the 1713 01:25:39,720 --> 01:25:43,719 Speaker 1: Belton Road initiative is basically China is doing empire through 1714 01:25:43,880 --> 01:25:46,840 Speaker 1: in my in my opinion, a more evolved means that 1715 01:25:46,840 --> 01:25:48,599 Speaker 1: doesn't mean it's good. It just means it's a slightly 1716 01:25:48,600 --> 01:25:51,479 Speaker 1: more evolved version of imperialism because what we do is, 1717 01:25:51,880 --> 01:25:55,040 Speaker 1: you know, we have basically puppet dictators that are in 1718 01:25:55,120 --> 01:25:58,479 Speaker 1: countries that allow than our corporations to exploit the natural 1719 01:25:58,520 --> 01:26:01,080 Speaker 1: resources in those countries. And that was an evolution from 1720 01:26:01,120 --> 01:26:02,640 Speaker 1: like the British way of doing it, which was like 1721 01:26:02,680 --> 01:26:04,360 Speaker 1: they just show up in India and they're like this 1722 01:26:04,520 --> 01:26:07,000 Speaker 1: is ours now and so, but what China is doing 1723 01:26:07,080 --> 01:26:08,559 Speaker 1: is a step further. Hey, what if we gave you 1724 01:26:08,560 --> 01:26:11,040 Speaker 1: some material well being through building out infrastructure in your 1725 01:26:11,040 --> 01:26:14,120 Speaker 1: countries and then you allow us to exploit you in return. 1726 01:26:14,520 --> 01:26:18,120 Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I think that if the long term trajectory, yeah, 1727 01:26:18,160 --> 01:26:20,360 Speaker 1: the sun is setting on the American empire, it's eventually 1728 01:26:20,439 --> 01:26:22,400 Speaker 1: going to be probably you know, a Chinese empire, and 1729 01:26:22,439 --> 01:26:24,759 Speaker 1: then they'll rise and fall to just like every single empire. 1730 01:26:25,280 --> 01:26:27,920 Speaker 1: But it is very strange to live in as tumultuous 1731 01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:30,200 Speaker 1: as time as we do right now, because I mean 1732 01:26:30,680 --> 01:26:32,679 Speaker 1: you're actually see in a rapid decline of the American 1733 01:26:32,680 --> 01:26:35,560 Speaker 1: Empire in my opinion, Wait but why like if you 1734 01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:39,000 Speaker 1: think it, why so let's defined like once again, like 1735 01:26:39,040 --> 01:26:42,040 Speaker 1: American Empire is a we'll have different definitions of that. 1736 01:26:42,080 --> 01:26:45,600 Speaker 1: But like NATO's stronger than ever. They're not gonna do 1737 01:26:45,680 --> 01:26:48,080 Speaker 1: shit though they're not supposed to do shit there so 1738 01:26:48,160 --> 01:26:49,920 Speaker 1: and I agree, right, no, no, no, but this is 1739 01:26:49,920 --> 01:26:52,960 Speaker 1: the point though, Like the American Empire wasn't in Ukraine 1740 01:26:53,280 --> 01:26:55,920 Speaker 1: in the set beyond like supplying weapons, and we're doing 1741 01:26:55,920 --> 01:26:59,320 Speaker 1: that now, like NATO is an institution, is now safe, 1742 01:27:00,080 --> 01:27:02,120 Speaker 1: and there was serious about whether on NATO is an institution. 1743 01:27:02,200 --> 01:27:04,960 Speaker 1: With sunset, NATO is almost certainly going to expand to 1744 01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:08,920 Speaker 1: Finland and Sweden. The US is actual perception in Western 1745 01:27:08,960 --> 01:27:11,320 Speaker 1: Europe is the highest it's been in a long, long 1746 01:27:11,360 --> 01:27:13,519 Speaker 1: long time. If you're a European right now, you are 1747 01:27:13,520 --> 01:27:15,680 Speaker 1: not thinking about what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan, as 1748 01:27:15,800 --> 01:27:18,080 Speaker 1: terrible as those things were, you're thinking, well, I'm glad 1749 01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:20,160 Speaker 1: that there are US troops there, Like our relations with 1750 01:27:20,240 --> 01:27:22,800 Speaker 1: Poland were like going like this now they're back up 1751 01:27:22,840 --> 01:27:24,559 Speaker 1: like that. So so you don't think the American Empire 1752 01:27:24,600 --> 01:27:27,679 Speaker 1: is in decline as but you're what you call American empire. 1753 01:27:27,760 --> 01:27:31,040 Speaker 1: I call like a US world a US led world order, 1754 01:27:31,080 --> 01:27:33,519 Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah blah. Like there's like we could quibble, 1755 01:27:33,560 --> 01:27:35,320 Speaker 1: I like the ways we call it, but like what 1756 01:27:35,360 --> 01:27:37,519 Speaker 1: I would define as the status quo is the US 1757 01:27:37,920 --> 01:27:42,200 Speaker 1: has allied countries who we support militarily, fiscally, whatever. Like 1758 01:27:42,240 --> 01:27:44,240 Speaker 1: we're going to get even deeper in with Japan, We're 1759 01:27:44,280 --> 01:27:47,800 Speaker 1: deeper into South Korea, we're deeper into Europe. But on 1760 01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:50,280 Speaker 1: the other side they're more united too. Would you conceive 1761 01:27:50,400 --> 01:27:53,040 Speaker 1: that than now that China, Russia, Iran. I mean, we 1762 01:27:53,040 --> 01:27:55,200 Speaker 1: could go down a list here. Even India now is 1763 01:27:55,240 --> 01:27:59,000 Speaker 1: sort of wobbling going more Indian nukes In the eighties 1764 01:27:59,000 --> 01:28:01,000 Speaker 1: and nineties, like we had good saying and like I 1765 01:28:01,439 --> 01:28:03,280 Speaker 1: did a good up India as always doing whatever and 1766 01:28:03,360 --> 01:28:06,639 Speaker 1: non alignment. So well, I was just going to say, 1767 01:28:06,720 --> 01:28:11,040 Speaker 1: I think there is a clear hardening of it's It 1768 01:28:11,120 --> 01:28:14,920 Speaker 1: is almost like a new iron curtain. And right, you know, 1769 01:28:15,840 --> 01:28:17,800 Speaker 1: so there's a few things to say about this. So 1770 01:28:17,880 --> 01:28:23,400 Speaker 1: first of all, our financial economic warfare against Russia, which 1771 01:28:23,479 --> 01:28:25,800 Speaker 1: it has gone so far that it definitely is that 1772 01:28:27,120 --> 01:28:30,320 Speaker 1: it definitely having an impact on the Russian economy, creating 1773 01:28:30,360 --> 01:28:32,760 Speaker 1: great suffering for the Russian people, no doubt about that. 1774 01:28:32,920 --> 01:28:37,160 Speaker 1: But it also has strengthened those alternative systems and strengthened 1775 01:28:37,160 --> 01:28:41,960 Speaker 1: the motivation for China and even Saudi and other countries 1776 01:28:42,160 --> 01:28:44,519 Speaker 1: to say, we got to make sure that we're never 1777 01:28:44,560 --> 01:28:46,840 Speaker 1: going to be in a position to really be destroyed 1778 01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:49,880 Speaker 1: by American sanctions. So there's that part of it. But 1779 01:28:49,960 --> 01:28:53,720 Speaker 1: I think if we zoom out, oh, one other thing 1780 01:28:53,760 --> 01:28:56,439 Speaker 1: to say about that, it actually reminds me of these 1781 01:28:56,479 --> 01:29:02,160 Speaker 1: sort of like increasingly difficult loyalty tests from Trump, where 1782 01:29:02,160 --> 01:29:05,840 Speaker 1: it's like the more outrageous and obnoxious he is, he's 1783 01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:08,760 Speaker 1: able to see who's really with him. And that's kind 1784 01:29:08,760 --> 01:29:11,760 Speaker 1: of what Russia has done with China, right, Like they 1785 01:29:11,800 --> 01:29:14,639 Speaker 1: basically have created this test for China like all right, 1786 01:29:14,680 --> 01:29:17,240 Speaker 1: are we really are we really in this together? And 1787 01:29:17,640 --> 01:29:20,280 Speaker 1: effectively China has said we don't love what's going on, 1788 01:29:20,400 --> 01:29:23,080 Speaker 1: We're not going to like directly back you, but basically yes. 1789 01:29:23,600 --> 01:29:26,960 Speaker 1: So that is part of what has created that hardened 1790 01:29:27,640 --> 01:29:30,439 Speaker 1: iron curtain being drawn sense of the world, and then 1791 01:29:30,479 --> 01:29:32,599 Speaker 1: the media censorship and all of that plays into it. 1792 01:29:33,120 --> 01:29:38,200 Speaker 1: Part of why I view American influence and empire as 1793 01:29:38,240 --> 01:29:44,639 Speaker 1: being in decline is because the ideology behind it has 1794 01:29:44,800 --> 01:29:50,879 Speaker 1: basically been exposed as morally bankrupt and wrong. So the 1795 01:29:51,000 --> 01:29:56,000 Speaker 1: McDonald's in every square theory that if we just get 1796 01:29:56,040 --> 01:29:58,479 Speaker 1: you know, free markets into Russia, then we're all gonna 1797 01:29:58,479 --> 01:30:00,880 Speaker 1: be friends and democracy is going to follow and it's 1798 01:30:00,920 --> 01:30:03,120 Speaker 1: going to piece is going to reign supreme Well that 1799 01:30:03,280 --> 01:30:07,680 Speaker 1: was a fucking fantasy. So that ideology has been thoroughly indicted. 1800 01:30:08,040 --> 01:30:11,760 Speaker 1: Then you add on top of that are blatant hypocrisies 1801 01:30:11,920 --> 01:30:17,240 Speaker 1: and own routine violations of the supposed international rule of 1802 01:30:17,320 --> 01:30:21,000 Speaker 1: law that we supposedly care about an architect, and you 1803 01:30:21,080 --> 01:30:24,520 Speaker 1: add on top of that, you know, the mass populist 1804 01:30:24,560 --> 01:30:27,520 Speaker 1: uprisings that we've seen around the globe that have continued 1805 01:30:27,920 --> 01:30:31,439 Speaker 1: that have challenged the neoliberal economic status quo, which is 1806 01:30:31,479 --> 01:30:34,640 Speaker 1: part and parcel with this foreign policy worldview. Yeah, the 1807 01:30:34,840 --> 01:30:41,560 Speaker 1: American neoliberal like shock doctrine and we're gonna have democracy 1808 01:30:41,600 --> 01:30:43,559 Speaker 1: around the world and we're going to install it. All 1809 01:30:43,600 --> 01:30:47,519 Speaker 1: of that has been thoroughly dismantled. As an ideology. So 1810 01:30:47,680 --> 01:30:51,520 Speaker 1: that's why I think the American influence and empires, and 1811 01:30:51,520 --> 01:30:54,639 Speaker 1: and even just Trump and Biden getting elected, these people 1812 01:30:54,800 --> 01:30:59,120 Speaker 1: are there are like symbols of a decaying society. To 1813 01:30:59,120 --> 01:31:02,080 Speaker 1: have any situation where Donald Trump wins the presidential election 1814 01:31:02,240 --> 01:31:04,759 Speaker 1: and then Joe Biden, who's half dead, wins the presidential 1815 01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:07,759 Speaker 1: election as a backlash from Trump, that's not a healthy society. 1816 01:31:07,760 --> 01:31:10,639 Speaker 1: That's a society that's in severe decline. Quick response, yes, 1817 01:31:10,680 --> 01:31:14,599 Speaker 1: so the quick response is a like Richard Nixon literally 1818 01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:17,559 Speaker 1: like committed severe crimes at Watergate as the Vietnam War 1819 01:31:17,640 --> 01:31:19,760 Speaker 1: ended in defeat. So I don't think we should over 1820 01:31:20,400 --> 01:31:22,880 Speaker 1: read into bad leadership at the top here. But what 1821 01:31:22,920 --> 01:31:24,760 Speaker 1: I would just say, Christmas, I actually don't disagree with 1822 01:31:24,800 --> 01:31:27,439 Speaker 1: your Like, yeah, we're dunky on to let's say his name, 1823 01:31:27,479 --> 01:31:30,360 Speaker 1: Like we're attacking toms free. Are we talking like two 1824 01:31:30,439 --> 01:31:33,080 Speaker 1: countries with the McDonald's have never got like we were wrong? 1825 01:31:33,200 --> 01:31:36,120 Speaker 1: Totally wrong. Yeah, But my underlying point is I agree 1826 01:31:36,120 --> 01:31:39,919 Speaker 1: with you, But what I am countering is that dynamic 1827 01:31:39,960 --> 01:31:42,679 Speaker 1: will only make what we call what you call American empire, 1828 01:31:43,080 --> 01:31:47,960 Speaker 1: US troop presences overseas, US like funding of militaries, et cetera, 1829 01:31:47,960 --> 01:31:50,679 Speaker 1: et cetera. That is only going to get stronger. Japan 1830 01:31:50,880 --> 01:31:52,880 Speaker 1: is now openly saying we could see worde, we have 1831 01:31:52,920 --> 01:31:55,920 Speaker 1: American nukes in our country. That is what I think 1832 01:31:55,920 --> 01:31:59,160 Speaker 1: you would call an example of like American Empire, that 1833 01:31:59,240 --> 01:32:01,000 Speaker 1: we now have a war where the Poles are saying, 1834 01:32:01,080 --> 01:32:04,400 Speaker 1: good more American troops. If if Bill Biden caught up 1835 01:32:04,439 --> 01:32:06,519 Speaker 1: the president of the Baltic the presidents of the Baltic 1836 01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:09,240 Speaker 1: countries and said hey, we'll give you five hundred thousand troops, 1837 01:32:09,280 --> 01:32:11,400 Speaker 1: they would be dancing in the streets right now. That 1838 01:32:11,960 --> 01:32:14,439 Speaker 1: is what I mean by American so correct, because we're 1839 01:32:14,439 --> 01:32:17,160 Speaker 1: debating a couple of things. American influence, yes, down, but 1840 01:32:17,200 --> 01:32:19,960 Speaker 1: that's been a downward trajectory since the Cold War ended. 1841 01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:22,640 Speaker 1: See it's actually interesting because what you're just highlighting is 1842 01:32:22,680 --> 01:32:26,280 Speaker 1: that unipolarism made it so that having to pick the 1843 01:32:26,320 --> 01:32:28,840 Speaker 1: sides and increasing tension was supposed to go down. That 1844 01:32:28,960 --> 01:32:33,439 Speaker 1: was the promise of McDonald's. Now we're actually back in 1845 01:32:33,520 --> 01:32:36,880 Speaker 1: a system of a duality and a challenge of world, 1846 01:32:37,240 --> 01:32:41,639 Speaker 1: which increases tension and increases the likelihood of war. I mean, 1847 01:32:41,680 --> 01:32:44,679 Speaker 1: I agree with you Swinland Sweden and Finland are probably 1848 01:32:44,720 --> 01:32:47,080 Speaker 1: going to be in NATO. I think that's fucking crazy 1849 01:32:47,160 --> 01:32:49,800 Speaker 1: and we should not do it. That being said, the 1850 01:32:49,960 --> 01:32:53,920 Speaker 1: current trajectory looks like we almost certainly are, which is 1851 01:32:53,960 --> 01:32:57,120 Speaker 1: going to make it so that the tension does increase. 1852 01:32:57,400 --> 01:33:00,400 Speaker 1: My fear is that we get bogged down in some 1853 01:33:00,520 --> 01:33:05,360 Speaker 1: bullshit war in Europe defending Finland or Swedish territorial integrity 1854 01:33:05,720 --> 01:33:09,400 Speaker 1: while the entire world's GDP and future is being led 1855 01:33:09,680 --> 01:33:12,160 Speaker 1: in Asia. And I why not call it like honestly, 1856 01:33:12,240 --> 01:33:16,160 Speaker 1: like real talkake, A war that got so big that 1857 01:33:16,200 --> 01:33:18,959 Speaker 1: it involved Finland and Sweden isn't bullshit. No, I disagree 1858 01:33:18,960 --> 01:33:20,680 Speaker 1: with that. I mean, first of all, we didn't go 1859 01:33:20,720 --> 01:33:22,559 Speaker 1: to war in World War Two in order to defend 1860 01:33:22,560 --> 01:33:26,880 Speaker 1: Finnish integritis. Saying I'm boy getting at is like okay, 1861 01:33:27,000 --> 01:33:29,639 Speaker 1: a ward where that war happens is a fucking disease. 1862 01:33:29,720 --> 01:33:31,800 Speaker 1: Like I agree with you for the look. And this 1863 01:33:31,880 --> 01:33:34,320 Speaker 1: is where I know I sound callous. I'm really sorry, 1864 01:33:34,320 --> 01:33:36,559 Speaker 1: but the integrity of the Finnish border, which has been 1865 01:33:36,560 --> 01:33:39,800 Speaker 1: invaded by the Russians many times throughout history, is not 1866 01:33:40,040 --> 01:33:43,160 Speaker 1: in the nuclear interest of the United States, which is 1867 01:33:43,280 --> 01:33:45,719 Speaker 1: essentially what it means in order to admit them to NATO. 1868 01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:48,760 Speaker 1: Same with Frankly, I also believe the Baltic States, but 1869 01:33:48,840 --> 01:33:50,880 Speaker 1: we've already signed that treaty. It is what it is. 1870 01:33:52,560 --> 01:33:54,920 Speaker 1: When I'm talking about Sweden and NATO once again, which 1871 01:33:54,920 --> 01:33:58,280 Speaker 1: are very much within a traditional Russian sphere of influence, 1872 01:33:58,400 --> 01:34:00,920 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that they deserve to be invaded, And 1873 01:34:01,280 --> 01:34:03,680 Speaker 1: if they were invaded, I would support doing exactly what 1874 01:34:03,680 --> 01:34:06,439 Speaker 1: we've been doing here with Ukraine. Do they deserve the 1875 01:34:06,560 --> 01:34:10,040 Speaker 1: nuclear guarantee of the nuclear umbrella of the US. Absolutely not. 1876 01:34:10,400 --> 01:34:12,599 Speaker 1: And so what drives me crazy about the current debate 1877 01:34:13,000 --> 01:34:15,200 Speaker 1: is it's like, oh, Sweden wants to be in NATO, 1878 01:34:15,320 --> 01:34:17,679 Speaker 1: So it's just a de fact hold on a second 1879 01:34:17,840 --> 01:34:20,960 Speaker 1: that what you want is immaterial, what we want is 1880 01:34:21,000 --> 01:34:23,760 Speaker 1: supposed to be material. Gohad okay, But I mean the 1881 01:34:23,800 --> 01:34:26,920 Speaker 1: point has to be made, though Russia should also stop 1882 01:34:27,040 --> 01:34:29,040 Speaker 1: giving Finland and Sweden a reason to want to be 1883 01:34:29,080 --> 01:34:33,080 Speaker 1: in NATOS of course, I don't disagree with me though 1884 01:34:34,640 --> 01:34:36,479 Speaker 1: I agree with you too. I agree with you too. 1885 01:34:36,800 --> 01:34:40,360 Speaker 1: If I'm being one hundred percent honest, am I or 1886 01:34:40,400 --> 01:34:42,920 Speaker 1: anybody I know in love? Are we? Am? I gonna 1887 01:34:42,920 --> 01:34:46,439 Speaker 1: go fight and die or risk nuclear war over fucking 1888 01:34:46,560 --> 01:34:51,360 Speaker 1: Kiev or some city in Finland or Sweden. The answers, hell, no, 1889 01:34:51,840 --> 01:34:54,160 Speaker 1: there's no way. But you know, I just feel like 1890 01:34:54,200 --> 01:34:56,320 Speaker 1: the other point had to be made to the last thing, 1891 01:34:56,720 --> 01:34:58,360 Speaker 1: the last thing I want to say about this, because 1892 01:34:58,360 --> 01:35:02,559 Speaker 1: I think it's clarifying about what we are doing in Ukraine, 1893 01:35:02,680 --> 01:35:05,920 Speaker 1: and why said this is hardening. It's a new Iron Curtain, 1894 01:35:06,120 --> 01:35:08,120 Speaker 1: it is a new sort of Cold war. It's a 1895 01:35:08,240 --> 01:35:11,680 Speaker 1: dividing of the world. It is, you know, sort of 1896 01:35:11,800 --> 01:35:14,960 Speaker 1: bolstering American empire in the ways you're talking about Marshall, 1897 01:35:15,000 --> 01:35:18,719 Speaker 1: while the ideology itself is thoroughly discredited and it certainly 1898 01:35:18,800 --> 01:35:22,480 Speaker 1: is giving reason for the other side of that multipolar 1899 01:35:22,520 --> 01:35:26,960 Speaker 1: world to strengthen as well. Ron Klain got asked about, Hey, 1900 01:35:26,960 --> 01:35:29,200 Speaker 1: what are you doing and create an exit ramp for 1901 01:35:29,400 --> 01:35:32,400 Speaker 1: Putin and claim being a top White House advisor. I 1902 01:35:32,439 --> 01:35:34,679 Speaker 1: think he's more or less running the show chief of staff. 1903 01:35:34,840 --> 01:35:38,200 Speaker 1: He says, yeah, he said he gives progressives pats on 1904 01:35:38,200 --> 01:35:39,760 Speaker 1: the head and they fall in line. That's what he does. 1905 01:35:40,000 --> 01:35:43,960 Speaker 1: He says, I don't want an exit ramp for Vladimir Putin. Yeah, 1906 01:35:44,320 --> 01:35:47,600 Speaker 1: I think that's our concern. Our concern is punishing the 1907 01:35:47,680 --> 01:35:51,479 Speaker 1: Russian aggression. They're not distinguishing between Putin and the Russian people, 1908 01:35:51,479 --> 01:35:54,000 Speaker 1: by the way, and defending the rights of the Ukrainians 1909 01:35:54,000 --> 01:35:55,479 Speaker 1: to have the kind of future they deserve, and that's 1910 01:35:55,520 --> 01:35:59,439 Speaker 1: what our military support is enabling. So he is straight on, 1911 01:36:00,960 --> 01:36:02,760 Speaker 1: we don't want peace. We don't want peace, right. Our 1912 01:36:02,760 --> 01:36:06,000 Speaker 1: goal is not peace. Our goal is to make Putin 1913 01:36:06,160 --> 01:36:09,360 Speaker 1: pay a price. I don't want an exit ramp. Our 1914 01:36:09,360 --> 01:36:13,800 Speaker 1: concern is punishing Russia. So, I mean they're saying it 1915 01:36:13,920 --> 01:36:17,599 Speaker 1: right out, and we've had reports of this before. Biden, 1916 01:36:17,600 --> 01:36:19,400 Speaker 1: I think let the truth slip when he said we 1917 01:36:19,439 --> 01:36:22,559 Speaker 1: cannot have Vladimir Putin in power. It cannot remain in power. 1918 01:36:22,800 --> 01:36:25,200 Speaker 1: We already had aids who were leaking. Basically, the only 1919 01:36:25,240 --> 01:36:29,840 Speaker 1: game here is effectively regime change. They aren't in this 1920 01:36:30,200 --> 01:36:33,000 Speaker 1: to help Ukrainian secure a piece, which is what I 1921 01:36:33,120 --> 01:36:35,799 Speaker 1: want to see and I think everybody here wants to see. 1922 01:36:36,280 --> 01:36:42,360 Speaker 1: They are effectively forcing that division, that new Iron Curtain 1923 01:36:42,439 --> 01:36:44,680 Speaker 1: and some sort of Cold war competition, and so I 1924 01:36:44,720 --> 01:36:47,519 Speaker 1: think that's what you know, that's what their goals ultimately are. 1925 01:36:47,680 --> 01:36:51,240 Speaker 1: We are rolling the dice. Some people say this is hyperbolic. 1926 01:36:51,280 --> 01:36:54,439 Speaker 1: I assure you it is not hyperbolic. We are playing 1927 01:36:54,479 --> 01:36:57,320 Speaker 1: with fire and nuclear weapons are on the table, and 1928 01:36:57,360 --> 01:36:59,439 Speaker 1: I think people need to understand that and realize that, 1929 01:36:59,600 --> 01:37:02,760 Speaker 1: and so so the instability that's created by now the 1930 01:37:02,760 --> 01:37:05,479 Speaker 1: fact that there's a multipolar world. The downfall of having 1931 01:37:05,479 --> 01:37:08,759 Speaker 1: the unipolar world was, of course, like we wantonly violate 1932 01:37:08,840 --> 01:37:11,640 Speaker 1: international law on a Tuesday before breakfast, you know what 1933 01:37:11,680 --> 01:37:13,560 Speaker 1: I mean? Like we get in seventy three percent of 1934 01:37:13,600 --> 01:37:16,120 Speaker 1: the world's dictatorships are backed by the United States of America. 1935 01:37:16,160 --> 01:37:17,439 Speaker 1: Look at what we did in the least et cetera, 1936 01:37:17,439 --> 01:37:19,640 Speaker 1: et cetera. Those are the downsides of of you know, 1937 01:37:19,680 --> 01:37:22,840 Speaker 1: the unipolar world with the chief hypocrite leading it. But 1938 01:37:23,000 --> 01:37:27,000 Speaker 1: the downside of the multipolar world is like potential World 1939 01:37:27,080 --> 01:37:30,360 Speaker 1: War III and the nukes in the air and endless 1940 01:37:30,400 --> 01:37:33,760 Speaker 1: instability and armament out the wazoo on both sides. I 1941 01:37:33,840 --> 01:37:35,679 Speaker 1: just said the word wazu because we only have nine minutes. 1942 01:37:35,840 --> 01:37:38,559 Speaker 1: Ye yeah, so fund the world that I would say is, look, 1943 01:37:38,640 --> 01:37:42,040 Speaker 1: I think the exit rep is already getting taken. The 1944 01:37:42,040 --> 01:37:45,600 Speaker 1: only thing that made Putin pull back his ambitions to 1945 01:37:45,720 --> 01:37:48,160 Speaker 1: now just focusing on the East and the domeboss in 1946 01:37:48,200 --> 01:37:50,400 Speaker 1: those places where the fact that he was basically militarily 1947 01:37:50,400 --> 01:37:52,800 Speaker 1: defeated in front of Kiev, which happened because the West 1948 01:37:52,800 --> 01:37:55,519 Speaker 1: supported Ukraine. So I would say that I think the 1949 01:37:55,560 --> 01:37:58,160 Speaker 1: current policy is working, and I think the only way 1950 01:37:58,200 --> 01:38:00,360 Speaker 1: you get peace quote unquote is Putin's can events that 1951 01:38:00,400 --> 01:38:03,320 Speaker 1: he doesn't achieve the political military objectives that he wanted 1952 01:38:03,320 --> 01:38:05,639 Speaker 1: to have. He thought he could take Kiev. He can't 1953 01:38:05,680 --> 01:38:08,439 Speaker 1: take Kiev. He's pulled back. That part of the conflict 1954 01:38:08,479 --> 01:38:11,479 Speaker 1: has deescaated. It's going to settle into a ten year horrible, 1955 01:38:11,479 --> 01:38:13,360 Speaker 1: horrible war. Where we had that before, We had that 1956 01:38:13,400 --> 01:38:16,599 Speaker 1: for eight years after twenty fourteen, that didn't prompt Western intervention. 1957 01:38:17,040 --> 01:38:18,880 Speaker 1: I think we are moving the right direction and I 1958 01:38:18,920 --> 01:38:20,919 Speaker 1: just think at this point the ball is in Putin's 1959 01:38:20,920 --> 01:38:22,800 Speaker 1: court and the way that you get him to peace 1960 01:38:22,960 --> 01:38:26,519 Speaker 1: is Ukrainian victor in the battlefield. In specific situations like 1961 01:38:26,560 --> 01:38:29,080 Speaker 1: the battle around Kiev. I don't I think we have 1962 01:38:29,160 --> 01:38:33,040 Speaker 1: gone so far that there is no there is no 1963 01:38:33,160 --> 01:38:36,799 Speaker 1: political will or desire even to ever lessen the sanctions 1964 01:38:36,800 --> 01:38:38,840 Speaker 1: that we've imposed on them, even if they were to 1965 01:38:38,840 --> 01:38:42,200 Speaker 1: come to some sort of negotiated settlement and so now 1966 01:38:42,280 --> 01:38:45,280 Speaker 1: the reality of the world is, you've got another pariah state, 1967 01:38:45,479 --> 01:38:48,679 Speaker 1: You've got another you know, baddy country that we've are 1968 01:38:48,840 --> 01:38:50,800 Speaker 1: you know, any time that we can get a chance 1969 01:38:50,800 --> 01:38:52,800 Speaker 1: that regime change in there, we're going to be messing around, 1970 01:38:52,800 --> 01:38:55,840 Speaker 1: maybe not directly on the ground, and to me, that 1971 01:38:55,880 --> 01:38:58,840 Speaker 1: does not help to preserve world peace or stability. So 1972 01:38:59,120 --> 01:39:02,240 Speaker 1: it's a it's a in my view of very dangerous landscape. 1973 01:39:02,280 --> 01:39:05,160 Speaker 1: All right, we got eight minutes, last line, Okay, because 1974 01:39:05,560 --> 01:39:07,599 Speaker 1: talk about labor else I'm gonna mail down. All right, 1975 01:39:07,960 --> 01:39:09,680 Speaker 1: We are here in New York City, and as you 1976 01:39:09,680 --> 01:39:14,040 Speaker 1: guys know, Staten Island has just done something incredibly historic, 1977 01:39:14,080 --> 01:39:17,000 Speaker 1: which is to vote for the first ever Amazon union 1978 01:39:17,200 --> 01:39:20,799 Speaker 1: in American history, led by Chris Malls and Derek Palmer. 1979 01:39:21,240 --> 01:39:26,240 Speaker 1: They have another election coming up here in nine days, 1980 01:39:26,760 --> 01:39:32,599 Speaker 1: I believe, which is another building on Staten Island, and frankly, 1981 01:39:32,760 --> 01:39:35,800 Speaker 1: I think it's going to be as impossible as the 1982 01:39:35,800 --> 01:39:38,639 Speaker 1: first victory was. I think this one may be even harder. 1983 01:39:38,760 --> 01:39:41,720 Speaker 1: First of all, you know, Chris and Derek both came 1984 01:39:41,760 --> 01:39:43,920 Speaker 1: from the other building, so they had really deep like 1985 01:39:44,000 --> 01:39:48,439 Speaker 1: local networks there. But most importantly, Amazon is now going 1986 01:39:48,640 --> 01:39:52,640 Speaker 1: over the top with union busting. I think they were 1987 01:39:52,680 --> 01:39:55,120 Speaker 1: caught a little bit sleeping. Just like many people, they 1988 01:39:55,200 --> 01:39:58,000 Speaker 1: underestimated Chris Malls and his team. They are not going 1989 01:39:58,080 --> 01:40:02,240 Speaker 1: to make that mistake again. And so Weiss has some 1990 01:40:02,360 --> 01:40:06,519 Speaker 1: reporting from within that facility saying Amazon is forcing workers 1991 01:40:06,520 --> 01:40:09,800 Speaker 1: to remove union banners, They're confiscating union lit They got 1992 01:40:09,840 --> 01:40:13,720 Speaker 1: audio of Amazon reps discipline planning a lead organizer. So 1993 01:40:14,200 --> 01:40:16,840 Speaker 1: the union busting tactics there are ramping up, and at 1994 01:40:16,880 --> 01:40:23,000 Speaker 1: the same time, Starbucks Howard Schultz is losing his mind 1995 01:40:23,320 --> 01:40:27,960 Speaker 1: about the union victories that are unfolding in an unprecedented 1996 01:40:28,000 --> 01:40:30,280 Speaker 1: way there as well. I mean, the Starbucks union movement 1997 01:40:30,680 --> 01:40:36,200 Speaker 1: has spread like wildfire. Their last four victories union victories 1998 01:40:36,360 --> 01:40:41,880 Speaker 1: were unanimous, not one vote worker voted against the union. 1999 01:40:42,160 --> 01:40:45,480 Speaker 1: And that's at the same time that they have massively 2000 01:40:45,600 --> 01:40:48,599 Speaker 1: escalated their tactics. So they fired the old CEO because 2001 01:40:48,640 --> 01:40:50,960 Speaker 1: he failed to stop the unions. They fired their union 2002 01:40:50,960 --> 01:40:53,720 Speaker 1: busting general counsel. They brought back founder Howard Schultz. He 2003 01:40:53,720 --> 01:40:55,880 Speaker 1: immediately announces I'm so freaked down about this, I'm not 2004 01:40:55,920 --> 01:40:58,559 Speaker 1: even going to do stock buybacks anymore, which is a 2005 01:40:58,560 --> 01:41:01,559 Speaker 1: big move. He starts giving speeches talking about the union's 2006 01:41:01,600 --> 01:41:05,680 Speaker 1: assault on corporate America. They start, they ramp up, firing 2007 01:41:05,760 --> 01:41:08,759 Speaker 1: of organizers. There's look, these companies always do union investing. 2008 01:41:08,840 --> 01:41:12,719 Speaker 1: The number of NLRB violations that Starbucks has been accused 2009 01:41:12,760 --> 01:41:17,880 Speaker 1: of a supposedly progressive company is truly extraordinary. But the 2010 01:41:17,960 --> 01:41:22,840 Speaker 1: thing that's really interesting is some of these tactics. Not 2011 01:41:22,960 --> 01:41:25,080 Speaker 1: only do they not seem to be working, they kind 2012 01:41:25,080 --> 01:41:28,080 Speaker 1: of seem to be backfiring. I mean again, since Schultz 2013 01:41:28,200 --> 01:41:31,320 Speaker 1: is back and they've done all this stuff, not just victories, 2014 01:41:31,800 --> 01:41:36,240 Speaker 1: unanimous victories, and more and more Starbucks continuing to file 2015 01:41:36,520 --> 01:41:41,120 Speaker 1: for union elections. So, Marshall, I'm actually curious for your 2016 01:41:41,120 --> 01:41:43,200 Speaker 1: perspective because I haven't heard from you on this issue. 2017 01:41:43,640 --> 01:41:46,080 Speaker 1: Do you think that this is a flash in the 2018 01:41:46,120 --> 01:41:50,000 Speaker 1: pan or do you think that this truly presages a 2019 01:41:50,400 --> 01:41:54,280 Speaker 1: new era of labor politics. Yeah, it's interesting you haven't 2020 01:41:54,280 --> 01:41:55,639 Speaker 1: heard from me on this because I know nothing about 2021 01:41:55,640 --> 01:41:59,200 Speaker 1: the subject. But as a consumer of Amazon and reluctantly Starbucks, 2022 01:41:59,200 --> 01:42:01,920 Speaker 1: which isn't that great more, I will give my opinion. 2023 01:42:02,040 --> 01:42:04,960 Speaker 1: So I think the two situations are different. Yeah, So 2024 01:42:05,160 --> 01:42:08,840 Speaker 1: I see a world where as a category, Amazon is 2025 01:42:08,880 --> 01:42:12,559 Speaker 1: almost certainly able to make a lot of union anti 2026 01:42:12,640 --> 01:42:15,520 Speaker 1: union victories. I think that I think that they can 2027 01:42:16,120 --> 01:42:17,479 Speaker 1: once again, Like I don't know what the word union. 2028 01:42:17,479 --> 01:42:18,559 Speaker 1: I'm not in a bad way. I don't know what 2029 01:42:18,600 --> 01:42:20,760 Speaker 1: union busting means in the year twenty twenty two. But like, 2030 01:42:21,000 --> 01:42:22,640 Speaker 1: I think there's a word where Amazon could in good 2031 01:42:22,640 --> 01:42:25,880 Speaker 1: faith convince people not to do it. In Starbucks, I 2032 01:42:25,880 --> 01:42:29,120 Speaker 1: don't have any understanding of how, given how social media 2033 01:42:29,200 --> 01:42:32,120 Speaker 1: driven it is, given frankly the client tele because I 2034 01:42:32,120 --> 01:42:34,639 Speaker 1: think what I would actually probably bet is that people 2035 01:42:34,680 --> 01:42:37,439 Speaker 1: who go into Starbucks probably like it, but that Starbucks 2036 01:42:37,439 --> 01:42:40,360 Speaker 1: would be will be unized. So like, but but in 2037 01:42:40,400 --> 01:42:43,599 Speaker 1: Amazon's case, and this is what's toxic about Amazon, people 2038 01:42:43,680 --> 01:42:45,920 Speaker 1: just want their two day thing. Even it means people 2039 01:42:45,960 --> 01:42:48,560 Speaker 1: are like pissing in water bottles, but so so like 2040 01:42:48,600 --> 01:42:50,840 Speaker 1: I don't so well, it's more invisible. Yeah, the labor 2041 01:42:50,880 --> 01:42:53,720 Speaker 1: at Amazon is more invisible. So I don't know what. 2042 01:42:54,080 --> 01:42:56,280 Speaker 1: I don't know what Starbucks does because this is like 2043 01:42:56,600 --> 01:42:59,960 Speaker 1: I say, social contagion, not disparagingly. Yeah, but like, once 2044 01:43:00,160 --> 01:43:03,680 Speaker 1: you see a picture of a Starbucks unionizing, I do 2045 01:43:03,760 --> 01:43:06,880 Speaker 1: not see what possible argument Starbucks could make to other 2046 01:43:06,960 --> 01:43:10,599 Speaker 1: Starbucks around the country. They would dissuade just seeing that image. 2047 01:43:10,600 --> 01:43:12,240 Speaker 1: It's just we're going to fire you. But well that's 2048 01:43:12,240 --> 01:43:14,040 Speaker 1: not going to work. Right. Here's the other thing, Kyle, 2049 01:43:14,040 --> 01:43:16,680 Speaker 1: that I've been thinking a lot about is like a 2050 01:43:16,720 --> 01:43:21,240 Speaker 1: lot of the Starbucks workers in particular, but also a 2051 01:43:21,280 --> 01:43:25,120 Speaker 1: good number the Amazon workers are also young, and many 2052 01:43:25,160 --> 01:43:28,400 Speaker 1: of them were also Bernie people. Like, part of why 2053 01:43:28,479 --> 01:43:32,200 Speaker 1: you have this movement right now is because of the 2054 01:43:32,760 --> 01:43:36,560 Speaker 1: consciousness that the Bernie campaign helped to build. They interviewed 2055 01:43:36,760 --> 01:43:40,760 Speaker 1: some of the first Starbucks or union organizers and they 2056 01:43:40,760 --> 01:43:43,920 Speaker 1: were like, I learned how to organize on Bernie Sanders campaign. 2057 01:43:44,439 --> 01:43:48,560 Speaker 1: So not only do you have a labor landscape that 2058 01:43:48,600 --> 01:43:51,840 Speaker 1: has been dramatically transferred by COVID and where it became 2059 01:43:52,000 --> 01:43:54,599 Speaker 1: really clear to people that my boss will literally let 2060 01:43:54,600 --> 01:43:56,960 Speaker 1: me die and not give a shit if they think 2061 01:43:56,960 --> 01:43:59,320 Speaker 1: that they can make more profit. So you have that, 2062 01:43:59,600 --> 01:44:00,800 Speaker 1: you have the fact that there are a lot of 2063 01:44:00,920 --> 01:44:03,400 Speaker 1: jobs available, but their shitty, low wage jobs. So people 2064 01:44:03,400 --> 01:44:05,760 Speaker 1: are saying, I'm not gonna leave, I'm gonna stay here 2065 01:44:05,800 --> 01:44:07,880 Speaker 1: and actually make this a good job, because that's the 2066 01:44:07,920 --> 01:44:10,479 Speaker 1: thing that matters to me. But then you also have 2067 01:44:10,600 --> 01:44:16,280 Speaker 1: a generation that is historically favorably inclined towards unions and 2068 01:44:16,360 --> 01:44:18,600 Speaker 1: who have received a kind of labor education that we 2069 01:44:18,680 --> 01:44:22,240 Speaker 1: have never given people in through the education system. By 2070 01:44:22,280 --> 01:44:25,120 Speaker 1: their proximity and awareness of the Bernie Sanders campaign, Yeah, 2071 01:44:25,160 --> 01:44:28,439 Speaker 1: I mean that's probably part of it. I think the 2072 01:44:28,479 --> 01:44:31,400 Speaker 1: biggest part of it is just necessity, because you know, 2073 01:44:31,439 --> 01:44:33,360 Speaker 1: we're living in an era where, I mean, the government 2074 01:44:34,240 --> 01:44:37,120 Speaker 1: really doesn't do much of anything to help people anymore. 2075 01:44:37,360 --> 01:44:40,200 Speaker 1: You know, like whatever remnants of the New Deal and 2076 01:44:40,240 --> 01:44:42,599 Speaker 1: the War on Poverty are there just like slowly eroded 2077 01:44:42,640 --> 01:44:45,400 Speaker 1: over time. We've been in this monstrous and neoliberal era 2078 01:44:45,520 --> 01:44:47,960 Speaker 1: for so long now, and I think people looked around, 2079 01:44:48,240 --> 01:44:50,560 Speaker 1: they realize there's no cavalry that's coming to save us. Like, 2080 01:44:50,600 --> 01:44:52,680 Speaker 1: we got to save ourselves. And so one of the 2081 01:44:52,680 --> 01:44:54,920 Speaker 1: ways you do that is you look to your coworkers, 2082 01:44:54,960 --> 01:44:57,640 Speaker 1: you hold hands in solidarity and say, let's try to 2083 01:44:57,640 --> 01:44:59,240 Speaker 1: form a union, let's try to get better wages and 2084 01:44:59,280 --> 01:45:02,080 Speaker 1: better benefits. This in a more direct way. If nobody's 2085 01:45:02,080 --> 01:45:04,240 Speaker 1: coming to save us, we need to save ourselves. So 2086 01:45:04,240 --> 01:45:06,880 Speaker 1: I think it's probably necessity is driving a lot of it. 2087 01:45:06,920 --> 01:45:09,320 Speaker 1: And you know that's why I hope that you get 2088 01:45:09,400 --> 01:45:11,960 Speaker 1: victories across the board. I know you told me before 2089 01:45:12,000 --> 01:45:16,599 Speaker 1: this that what was it the last four Starbucks union elections, 2090 01:45:16,680 --> 01:45:19,120 Speaker 1: it was unanimous the whole like and what is it? 2091 01:45:19,160 --> 01:45:24,639 Speaker 1: Twenty states? Now twenty nine states. The Amazon Labor Union 2092 01:45:24,840 --> 01:45:28,200 Speaker 1: has now received inquiries from more than two hundred buildings, 2093 01:45:28,439 --> 01:45:31,160 Speaker 1: and just for to keep in mind the scale, as 2094 01:45:31,280 --> 01:45:34,840 Speaker 1: I mean, both of these movements are extremely exciting and transformational. 2095 01:45:34,880 --> 01:45:38,519 Speaker 1: I think because they are really recognizable brands that the 2096 01:45:38,600 --> 01:45:42,240 Speaker 1: upper middle class uses, like literally every day. That's part 2097 01:45:42,320 --> 01:45:46,920 Speaker 1: of why these things are so incredibly powerful. But you've 2098 01:45:46,960 --> 01:45:49,880 Speaker 1: had two hundred plus buildings across the country reach out 2099 01:45:49,880 --> 01:45:52,479 Speaker 1: to Amazon Labor Union about organizing. Now, they're not going 2100 01:45:52,560 --> 01:45:54,880 Speaker 1: to win all of those, but a single building in 2101 01:45:54,880 --> 01:45:58,400 Speaker 1: Staten Island that's eight thousand workers. So the entirety of 2102 01:45:58,400 --> 01:46:01,519 Speaker 1: the Starbucks movement thus far, the I think it's nineteen 2103 01:46:01,560 --> 01:46:04,040 Speaker 1: stores maybe that they've organized thus far doesn't come close 2104 01:46:04,080 --> 01:46:06,680 Speaker 1: in numbers, although it comes it has a lot of 2105 01:46:06,680 --> 01:46:10,160 Speaker 1: cultural cachet to what you could ultimately do at Amazon. 2106 01:46:10,439 --> 01:46:13,519 Speaker 1: On the other hand, Saga like the laws are still 2107 01:46:13,560 --> 01:46:17,559 Speaker 1: extraordinarily rigged against them. It's still a very difficult climate. 2108 01:46:17,760 --> 01:46:20,479 Speaker 1: The things that bosses can do to try to threaten 2109 01:46:20,520 --> 01:46:24,400 Speaker 1: and persuade you and lie to you basically about the 2110 01:46:24,520 --> 01:46:27,960 Speaker 1: union still makes it very very hard. So I think 2111 01:46:28,120 --> 01:46:30,400 Speaker 1: while this thing is very niscent and very exciting, it's 2112 01:46:30,439 --> 01:46:32,920 Speaker 1: far from a foregone conclusion that ultimately you're going to 2113 01:46:32,960 --> 01:46:35,920 Speaker 1: have this wave continue. Yeah, it's not a foregone conclusion. 2114 01:46:36,000 --> 01:46:38,200 Speaker 1: I would I would just look at What I find 2115 01:46:38,560 --> 01:46:41,920 Speaker 1: most fascinating is that no matter what, there is still 2116 01:46:41,960 --> 01:46:45,720 Speaker 1: some change being sparked here. So Amazon obviously trying to 2117 01:46:45,800 --> 01:46:48,160 Speaker 1: raise their wage. They're trying to be like, and this 2118 01:46:48,280 --> 01:46:50,160 Speaker 1: is what Marshalls and I think it is most likely 2119 01:46:50,160 --> 01:46:51,439 Speaker 1: to do. They're but be like, okay, fine, we'll go 2120 01:46:51,439 --> 01:46:53,000 Speaker 1: to twenty one dollars an hour. We'll go to this 2121 01:46:53,200 --> 01:46:54,880 Speaker 1: as long as you don't unionize, as long as you 2122 01:46:54,920 --> 01:46:56,920 Speaker 1: do what we say. I'm not saying it's a good situation. 2123 01:46:57,040 --> 01:46:59,080 Speaker 1: Need to throw it up, but they have a literally 2124 01:46:59,320 --> 01:47:01,880 Speaker 1: hundreds of billion in order to throw at the problem. 2125 01:47:02,000 --> 01:47:04,439 Speaker 1: Starbucks is also, as we pointed to, they took the 2126 01:47:04,479 --> 01:47:07,080 Speaker 1: extraordinary step of saying we're not going to do stock 2127 01:47:07,120 --> 01:47:10,719 Speaker 1: buybacks anymore. We are now going to invest our profit 2128 01:47:10,840 --> 01:47:14,240 Speaker 1: in our people. That's a direct response to the union 2129 01:47:14,280 --> 01:47:16,240 Speaker 1: as a well, and they went further now and said 2130 01:47:16,280 --> 01:47:18,960 Speaker 1: we're going to give benefits but only to the non 2131 01:47:19,200 --> 01:47:22,479 Speaker 1: union workers, which I don't know how that's less illegal, 2132 01:47:22,520 --> 01:47:24,240 Speaker 1: but yeah, I don't know how that's that's up to 2133 01:47:24,280 --> 01:47:27,639 Speaker 1: the NLRB. But and that is where law also matters 2134 01:47:27,640 --> 01:47:30,880 Speaker 1: a lot. So at the very least, we're in a 2135 01:47:31,000 --> 01:47:34,639 Speaker 1: huge sea change for the labor movement and for worker 2136 01:47:34,720 --> 01:47:38,240 Speaker 1: politics in general, with the great resignation, with so much 2137 01:47:38,240 --> 01:47:41,000 Speaker 1: of bargaining power, which is dramatically blue collar, and I 2138 01:47:41,040 --> 01:47:43,720 Speaker 1: think that's on balance an important thing. That's why I 2139 01:47:43,720 --> 01:47:46,040 Speaker 1: do think we're entering a new era. It's not going 2140 01:47:46,040 --> 01:47:48,400 Speaker 1: to look the same as nineteen ten or you know, 2141 01:47:48,479 --> 01:47:52,839 Speaker 1: in the the fires and the strikes, but it will 2142 01:47:53,080 --> 01:47:55,479 Speaker 1: be very interesting. It will be driven by the Internet, 2143 01:47:55,640 --> 01:47:57,840 Speaker 1: and we're going to have to find some sort of 2144 01:47:57,880 --> 01:48:00,200 Speaker 1: new consensus. So unfortunately that's time because I know you 2145 01:48:00,200 --> 01:48:02,640 Speaker 1: guys also have to get out of here. Thank you 2146 01:48:02,720 --> 01:48:05,680 Speaker 1: all everybody who the tens of thousands of you who 2147 01:48:05,720 --> 01:48:11,719 Speaker 1: watched for some of the fun super chast then about 2148 01:48:11,840 --> 01:48:14,200 Speaker 1: uh for our producer, I think we beat CNN Plus 2149 01:48:14,240 --> 01:48:17,479 Speaker 1: within about two seconds and going on, so shout out 2150 01:48:17,479 --> 01:48:21,320 Speaker 1: to you, Chris Wallace. I hope you enjoy interviewing James Cameron. 2151 01:48:22,160 --> 01:48:24,240 Speaker 1: Thank you everybody so much for watching. This was a 2152 01:48:24,280 --> 01:48:28,360 Speaker 1: fun experience New Formats. Thanks to all premium subscribers, especially 2153 01:48:28,360 --> 01:48:30,880 Speaker 1: you guys programmed an amazing show. By the way, this 2154 01:48:30,960 --> 01:48:32,800 Speaker 1: was fun. It was fun. And by the way, if 2155 01:48:32,880 --> 01:48:35,720 Speaker 1: y'all didn't like the topics and you're not premium subscriber, 2156 01:48:35,840 --> 01:48:39,519 Speaker 1: there you go listen become a premium Time was on 2157 01:48:39,560 --> 01:48:41,920 Speaker 1: the table. I forgot to put it in. That's actually 2158 01:48:42,200 --> 01:48:44,160 Speaker 1: time debate. Oh you forgot. I forgot. I forgot to 2159 01:48:44,160 --> 01:48:46,040 Speaker 1: put it in. I thought they overlooked that. That's my fault. 2160 01:48:46,080 --> 01:48:48,599 Speaker 1: But they definitely would have voted for yeah, yeah, yeah, 2161 01:48:49,120 --> 01:48:52,840 Speaker 1: let's be real, all the deepest topics they did go 2162 01:48:52,880 --> 01:48:54,479 Speaker 1: for all the deepest They went for the deepest stuff, 2163 01:48:54,479 --> 01:48:56,320 Speaker 1: and that's why we love them so much. Shout out 2164 01:48:56,360 --> 01:48:59,920 Speaker 1: to Alex with w t F Media for helping a 2165 01:49:00,120 --> 01:49:01,639 Speaker 1: put this live stream on. If you guys are ever 2166 01:49:01,720 --> 01:49:04,559 Speaker 1: New York and you need similar services, it's a great spot. 2167 01:49:04,560 --> 01:49:06,559 Speaker 1: I really love the studio. They shoot brilliant idiots here. 2168 01:49:06,600 --> 01:49:11,880 Speaker 1: By the way, shout out to Andrew Schultz as well. 2169 01:49:12,000 --> 01:49:14,360 Speaker 1: And it's been really fun coming to you live from 2170 01:49:14,360 --> 01:49:16,840 Speaker 1: New York. We will see you guys later show on Monday. 2171 01:49:16,840 --> 01:49:17,519 Speaker 1: See you next week.