Speaker 1: Cool Media.
Speaker 2: Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. This
Speaker 2: is the show where we talk about how everything kind
Speaker 2: of feels like it's falling apart and how we can
Speaker 2: perhaps sometimes put some of that back together. In about
Speaker 2: a month's time, there's going to be what's being labeled
Speaker 2: a quote unquote mass nonviolent direct action converging on the
Speaker 2: Cop City construction site in Atlanta, Georgia. Now, a few
Speaker 2: weeks ago I interviewed the two people going around the
Speaker 2: country giving the block Cop City Speaking Tour in preparation
Speaker 2: for this upcoming action next month in Atlanta. Like always,
Speaker 2: the opinions of those interviewed on the show don't necessarily
Speaker 2: reflect the views of the show or myself. And with
Speaker 2: this action in particular, there has been quite the variety
Speaker 2: of opinions regarding its risk level and its ideological and
Speaker 2: tactical validity. But the action is going to happen. It
Speaker 2: is going to take place on November thirteenth, no matter
Speaker 2: you know some people disagreeing with aspects of it or
Speaker 2: having concerns about aspects of it, it is it is
Speaker 2: going to take place. So my interest in putting out
Speaker 2: this episode is to have a very open and clear
Speaker 2: discussion regarding some of the questions people have about this
Speaker 2: quote unquote nonviolent action, and also provide enough informations that
Speaker 2: people can make their own informed decision regarding what's going
Speaker 2: to happen next November. So with that, here is my
Speaker 2: conversation with Sam and Jamie from the Block Coop City
Speaker 2: speaking tour. Joining me today is Sam from Block Cop
Speaker 2: City and Jamie Peck. Both of you have been going
Speaker 2: around the country I think it's around seventy cities right now,
Speaker 2: doing a speaking tour to talk about this upcoming action
Speaker 2: in November to block cop City. Thanks for coming on, guys,
Speaker 2: No problem, Yeah, thanks for having us. So I assume
Speaker 2: anyone who's listening to this is already familiar with cop City,
Speaker 2: whether through their own their own keeping up with the news,
Speaker 2: or even if they're just even if they just listen
Speaker 2: to the show. We have covered cop City quite extensively
Speaker 2: the past like two years. So let's talk about this
Speaker 2: this kind of upcoming action, because it's very different than
Speaker 2: kind of the previous mobilizations that we've seen, which have
Speaker 2: taken form as like weeks of action. We had one
Speaker 2: last last June. We had one the previous march. So
Speaker 2: what's different about this new upcoming three day kind of mobilization.
Speaker 3: So yeah, obviously it's taking place on one day instead
Speaker 3: of a whole week, and there's gonna be two days
Speaker 3: of nonviolent direct action training leading up to the day
Speaker 3: of which would be really important to make sure that
Speaker 3: everybody feels prepared for what we're about to do. It's
Speaker 3: different in a few different ways. I feel like this
Speaker 3: is a passover Mansuri the four questions.
Speaker 1: How has this action different from all other actions?
Speaker 3: Well, it's gonna be like a real centralization of efforts,
Speaker 3: right because other weeks of action have been a little
Speaker 3: more diffuse, a little more spread out, And here we're
Speaker 3: sort of bringing to bear the full power of all
Speaker 3: the people coming from all over the country, this in
Speaker 3: the same place at the same time, because there's safety
Speaker 3: in numbers and there's power in numbers. And I feel
Speaker 3: like the June Week of Action, people were kind of
Speaker 3: going all over the place, not.
Speaker 1: Really sure what to do when.
Speaker 3: And I talked to a lot of people who were like,
Speaker 3: just tell us what to do, tell us what the
Speaker 3: move is on this particular day, and we'll be there
Speaker 3: And there is no one to do that, which you
Speaker 3: know is sometimes a hazard of sort of anarchistic movements.
Speaker 1: Right, nobody's in charge.
Speaker 3: And we're not in charge right now either, I should
Speaker 3: say everybody is going to have a chance to have
Speaker 3: input on the final plan in a thing called spokes
Speaker 3: councils that we're doing the weekend before the action.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think we're.
Speaker 3: Picking a lane, and we're doing a thing, and this
Speaker 3: particular lane has been chosen for a number of different reasons. Right.
Speaker 1: The movement is in an interesting place.
Speaker 3: Right now, where more people than ever know about cop City,
Speaker 3: more people than ever are opposed to cop City, as
Speaker 3: evidenced by the one hundred and twenty thousand petition signatures
Speaker 3: that the referendum campaign was able to collect to actually
Speaker 3: get a referendum on the ballot to let the people
Speaker 3: of Atlanta actually vote on whether or not they want
Speaker 3: this thing built. Of course, the city is throwing every
Speaker 3: trick in the book at them because they do not
Speaker 3: want to let the people vote. But on the other hand, right,
Speaker 3: lots of people know about it, lots of people oppose it,
Speaker 3: But the number of people who are willing and able
Speaker 3: to show up and do direct action against it has dwindled,
Speaker 3: and that's for a few different reasons. Right, there's been
Speaker 3: so much repression of the movement. One hundred people at
Speaker 3: least are now facing charges. We've got people facing domestic
Speaker 3: terrorism charges, We've got people facing RICO charges, just like
Speaker 3: an absurd overreach of the state, even according to mainstream
Speaker 3: legal scholars. So we really need a way for people
Speaker 3: to feel empowered doing direct action again. And this is
Speaker 3: what we've settled upon as a solution, and maybe Sam
Speaker 3: can take it from there.
Speaker 4: Sure, thanks, yeah, to build upon that, I suppose. Right,
Speaker 4: you were sort of asking why is it that less
Speaker 4: people than ever are taking embodied action in the forest,
Speaker 4: And one of those reasons also is people have been
Speaker 4: directing attention to other initiatives. Right, So the one hundred
Speaker 4: and twenty thousand petition signatures is gathered by something like
Speaker 4: three thousand volunteers. There's all sorts of different parties throughout
Speaker 4: the movement who have been trying, you know, just another
Speaker 4: diverse tactic. Right, This movement has seen incredibly diverse tactics
Speaker 4: over the last two years, all sort of moving in
Speaker 4: unison with one another. And we sort of see block
Speaker 4: Cop City as just another type of tactic in a
Speaker 4: larger repertoire of a toolkit. You know, we haven't actually
Speaker 4: had an instance of over a thousand people doing embodied
Speaker 4: direct action in the forest, like that's never occurred in
Speaker 4: this campaign. We've had a lot of people during some
Speaker 4: weeks of Action, but this is a little bit different
Speaker 4: in the scope. It's a little bit different in flavor.
Speaker 4: I liked what you were saying, Jamie about the sort
Speaker 4: of like a lot of other sort of convergences in
Speaker 4: Atlanta that were called weeks of action where we're distributed,
Speaker 4: we're very autonomously organized, and we're sort of treading a
Speaker 4: line between like the main sort of organizing style. You know,
Speaker 4: we're on tour right now, right calling in from Vancouver
Speaker 4: and you're over in Maine, vast continental wide tour. One
Speaker 4: of the primary functions of this tour is like the
Speaker 4: activation of affinity groups to sort of catalyze and come
Speaker 4: down to Atlanta so that crews can sort of have
Speaker 4: the confidence of flexibility, the warmth and the revelry that
Speaker 4: comes with moving through space with your homies, with your commons,
Speaker 4: while at the same time there's a very large cohort
Speaker 4: of various logistical teams trying to figure out various programming events,
Speaker 4: the locations of these trainings, how to feed people, how
Speaker 4: to house people, how to keep people entertained, things like that.
Speaker 4: So it's I think the scope is larger, potentially hitting
Speaker 4: eighty cities if we can finalize a few final requests
Speaker 4: and the sort of the action itself, right, so, as
Speaker 4: Jamie was saying, is sort of confined to one day, right,
Speaker 4: but it's a four day convergence. So the action itself
Speaker 4: is being our goal is to sort of carve out
Speaker 4: of space that day of on the morning of Monday,
Speaker 4: November thirteenth, which thousands of people can take embodied action
Speaker 4: together in the forest.
Speaker 2: Again, when you say like embodied action, this thing has
Speaker 2: been advertised as using quote unquote strategic nonviolence as opposed
Speaker 2: to like moralistic non violence, like where you like oppose
Speaker 2: violent direct action on principle. Instead, this has been trying
Speaker 2: to employ nonviolence as a strategic action. Do you want
Speaker 2: to talk a little bit about kind of how that's
Speaker 2: being envisioned, because I know there's certainly, even in Atlanta,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people who are either skeptical or
Speaker 2: confused or fear that there's like other safety issues with
Speaker 2: within action as public as this, right, because you're trying
Speaker 2: to get thousands of people to show up, So this
Speaker 2: is this very publicly announced thing, which also gives the
Speaker 2: police a big heads up. So I know there's been
Speaker 2: a lot of you know, there's there's a lot of questions,
Speaker 2: and I feel like, you know, the this this aspect
Speaker 2: of non violence is a very interesting one because the
Speaker 2: Defend the Atlanta Forest movement has been I think very
Speaker 2: historically defined by you know, very spontaneous, fiery acts of sabotage.
Speaker 2: So I guess, yeah, just that's I want to kind
Speaker 2: of I'm interested in this kind of strategic non violence aspect.
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know that it's been defined by these
Speaker 3: strategic acts of sabotage, which, by the way, I don't
Speaker 3: consider violence against private property to do violence.
Speaker 1: I tend to apply that to human beings only.
Speaker 3: But yeah, we certainly we don't disavow violence. We don't
Speaker 3: about any tactics in this fight. I mean that that
Speaker 3: highest level of violence that any activists have even been
Speaker 3: accused of is probably about the same level that you'd
Speaker 3: find if you've ever had a Roman candle fight with
Speaker 3: your friends. Right, you're shooting fireworks in each other's general direction.
Speaker 3: Obviously that wasn't happening for fun when folks did it
Speaker 3: in the activism world. But yeah, why non violence?
Speaker 4: Why?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 3: It's a great question, and I think a lot of
Speaker 3: it has to do with responding to the charges on
Speaker 3: the table. A lot of it has to do with
Speaker 3: wanting to create an easier on ramp for people and
Speaker 3: something that can be openly promoted because, you know, for
Speaker 3: better or for worse, the media has at times portrayed
Speaker 3: certain corners of the movement as these like scary eco
Speaker 3: terrorist and you know, when people are doing a higher
Speaker 3: risk action, it's inherently something that you can't really go
Speaker 3: around the country talking about and engaging groups of people
Speaker 3: that you don't know. So, you know, we wanted to
Speaker 3: strike this balance, right and what are we doing? Well, yes,
Speaker 3: technically it's a crime. So was what Martin Luther King
Speaker 3: did in the nineteen sixties, And we wanted to draw
Speaker 3: on that legacy, right, because the civil rights movement has
Speaker 3: a deep, deep legacy in Atlanta itself. So like we've
Speaker 3: had rallies at the MLK Center and now so okay,
Speaker 3: we're doing a thing. Right, there's a thousand people. There,
Speaker 3: there's children, there's clergy, it's in broad daylight. The state
Speaker 3: is sort of caught in a buyant now because Okay,
Speaker 3: it could arrest one thousand people in broad daylight and
Speaker 3: charge them with domestic terrorism. That would create a political crisis,
Speaker 3: and that would be an international outrage, and I think
Speaker 3: it would also be fairly unprecedented. It's possible that that
Speaker 3: would have although I don't think that's what's going to happen.
Speaker 3: There was recently a similar kind of direct action on
Speaker 3: the construction site that the Faith Coalition against Cop City did.
Speaker 3: Actually five people chain themselves to the construction equipment and
Speaker 3: they were arrested. They're all out on misdemeanors now, which
Speaker 3: is what you usually get charged with for a protest
Speaker 3: of that nature. Right, So, yeah, the state could hypothetically
Speaker 3: arrest a thousand people and charge them with terrorism. That
Speaker 3: would be an international outrage, that would be a political crisis.
Speaker 3: On the other hand, the state could do and there
Speaker 3: are signs that has been pulling back, right because what
Speaker 3: I just said, if the state charges people with misdemeanors
Speaker 3: for doing the exact same thing that people were recently
Speaker 3: charged with terrorism or hit with RICO charges for doing
Speaker 3: that will also serve to further delegitimize these charges for
Speaker 3: the people already facing them.
Speaker 2: Mass arrests are certainly a pretty big concern for people
Speaker 2: when they're deciding if they want to go to such
Speaker 2: an action. And I mean, because this action is happening,
Speaker 2: and you know, one of the most I would say,
Speaker 2: it's probably in like the top five most police areas
Speaker 2: of the country right now is in the South River Forest,
Speaker 2: is specifically the cop City construction site. It's certainly a
Speaker 2: concern a lot people have, especially when you know, we're
Speaker 2: talking about possibly police arresting hundreds of people trying to
Speaker 2: kettle them in the site. It's it's certainly a very
Speaker 2: very valid concern to have.
Speaker 4: I'll also add a little bit to that. So for me,
Speaker 4: the question of like mass arrest is actually maybe not
Speaker 4: even in the top five reasons why I'm interested in
Speaker 4: doing this campaign. I think it obviously is a possibility, right,
Speaker 4: I would say the goal of this action for me
Speaker 4: at least is not to get arrested. Yeah, obviously, Like
Speaker 4: you know, many civil disobedience campaigns, like that's an explicit
Speaker 4: part of their understanding. Yea, like a lot of change.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, A lot of like the extinction rebellion kind
Speaker 2: of tactics, even some of them more kind of Earth
Speaker 2: first tactics kind of revolve around being arrested as a
Speaker 2: part of of of the tactic itself. And there's certainly
Speaker 2: been a lot of pushback towards that type of like
Speaker 2: self sacrificial tactic here in Atlanta the past few years,
Speaker 2: and kind of in the general kind of anarchistic mill
Speaker 2: you that's kind of been like stewing that you know,
Speaker 2: is is this kind of self sacrifice of being arrested
Speaker 2: actually useful in any way? And I'm sure that is
Speaker 2: part of part of some people's thought process going into
Speaker 2: this is is you know, if there's a decent chance
Speaker 2: I am going to get arrested just for walking onto
Speaker 2: a site, is is it worth it? But sorry you
Speaker 2: were I realized I was interrupted you and went on
Speaker 2: a short, short rant.
Speaker 4: No, that's okay, it's a it's a it's a very
Speaker 4: important issue a lot of us, right, So yeah, like
Speaker 4: sort of as I was saying like that, the goal
Speaker 4: of this act is action is not to get arrested.
Speaker 4: But obviously, as you were saying, like we're waltzing onto
Speaker 4: the fucking sorry cops city construction site. It's a very
Speaker 4: good chance, to say the least. And but for me,
Speaker 4: the other interesting parts about this is right is embodied
Speaker 4: action in the forest has just not felt possible for
Speaker 4: months and months and months. There hasn't been an occupation
Speaker 4: of the forest since the cops killed tort in January
Speaker 4: of this year, except for a couple of days during
Speaker 4: the March Week of Action, But largely speaking, in the
Speaker 4: forests has been held by big scary men with big
Speaker 4: scary guns for many months now, and the horizons feel
Speaker 4: incredibly obscured. You know. It's it's it's very unclear what
Speaker 4: the movement could do right now, that could that could
Speaker 4: jump start our energies, that could serve as a container
Speaker 4: for the thousands and thousands and thousands of disillusion and
Speaker 4: disenfranchised folks who have been working tirelessly at other methods
Speaker 4: of change as well. Right so, our sort of theory
Speaker 4: is the most powerful action that we can do is
Speaker 4: one that's sort of defined by our by our power
Speaker 4: in numbers, by our power in our unity, by our
Speaker 4: power in sticking together in order. So for me, The
Speaker 4: interesting question isn't even necessarily what happens on November thirteenth
Speaker 4: of this year, the day of the action. For me,
Speaker 4: the interesting question is like, what new horizons does this
Speaker 4: open up in the movement? How we can reactivate and
Speaker 4: recatalyze our energy and understand and prove to ourselves in
Speaker 4: a collective fashion that embodied action in the forest is
Speaker 4: indeed possible at a math level, and this actually sort
Speaker 4: of seeks to advance the energy and the movement to
Speaker 4: a new height that hasn't actually occurred. What's going to
Speaker 4: happen is more people than ever will be in the
Speaker 4: forest together at the same time, and that right now
Speaker 4: is precisely what's needed in this moment, and the only
Speaker 4: way to do that as we're doing this publicly and
Speaker 4: above ground one to help aid in that sort of
Speaker 4: facilitation of just a numbers game, right, and then two
Speaker 4: is like, we want people to be able to make
Speaker 4: an informed and consensual decision on how they want to engage,
Speaker 4: and the only way that they can do that is
Speaker 4: for them to actually know what the heck is going
Speaker 4: to happen. Right, So we're going around and being incredibly
Speaker 4: clear about what the plan is and how the finalized
Speaker 4: version of the plan will be, as Jamie sort of
Speaker 4: opened with, discussed democratically and horizontally at these in person
Speaker 4: outdoor COVID Safe Spokes Council meetings on Saturday, November eleventh
Speaker 4: and Sunday, November twelfth down there in Atlanta, where all
Speaker 4: these affinity groups from around the country, around the state,
Speaker 4: and around the city of Atlanta will sort of elect
Speaker 4: one of their home needs to go to this larger
Speaker 4: general assembly type thing that will then sort of democratically
Speaker 4: and horizontally determine what the actual specifics of Monday's plan
Speaker 4: will be. Are there any sort of community agreements that
Speaker 4: we want to that we want to uplift and highlights
Speaker 4: so that we can all sort of know and be
Speaker 4: on the same page and move in a similar way together.
Speaker 4: And those could be I don't want to speak for
Speaker 4: what there because those will be determined in the Spokes Council,
Speaker 4: but the sort of like there's been questions, I guess lastly,
Speaker 4: there's been questions about well, what does that actually look
Speaker 4: like to maintain a level of non violence whatever that
Speaker 4: might actually mean in a space right, So, like I'm
Speaker 4: sure a lot of folks listening, and myself included, probably
Speaker 4: all of us here have witnessed you know, for lack
Speaker 4: of a better word, peace policing or something to that effect. Right,
Speaker 4: Our wager with this, our goal with this, is the
Speaker 4: activation of affinity groups of crews that roll up together
Speaker 4: who enter into this sort of like consensual horizontal decision
Speaker 4: making space where community agreements are explicitly laid out in
Speaker 4: the days leading up to the action. Those specific affinity
Speaker 4: groups can hold each other accountable to those norms in
Speaker 4: whatever way that they want, Right, you and your homies
Speaker 4: holding it down for one another. In like what we're
Speaker 4: calling for, right is non violence. Like that we can debate,
Speaker 4: we can have a heavy political debate about like the
Speaker 4: meaning of violence and the meaning of non violence. But
Speaker 4: like the language of non violence has a rich history
Speaker 4: in American social justice movements, right, Like that term has
Speaker 4: meaning to a lot of people. And that's actually what's
Speaker 4: being advocated for on this day, but only on that day. Right, Like,
Speaker 4: So what we're talking about is like in this specific
Speaker 4: space that we're going to like create together, this is
Speaker 4: what we're doing, what we're calling for in this moment
Speaker 4: in time, in this specific geography. If people have other
Speaker 4: ways to engage in other spaces or at other times.
Speaker 4: One of the hallmarks of the movement is that by
Speaker 4: all means they should right. That's what's kept this movement
Speaker 4: strong and this is no different.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd like to add that there's definitely a precedent
Speaker 3: for this within the movement. There were probably a number
Speaker 3: of events like this, but this was the one that
Speaker 3: I was there for.
Speaker 1: There was a march a rally into March at.
Speaker 3: The MLK Center during the March Week of Action, and
Speaker 3: it was put on by Community Movement Builders, which is
Speaker 3: a great group, all black group organizing in specifically black
Speaker 3: working class communities in Atlanta, led by Kamal Franklin, and
Speaker 3: he put out a statement before this rally in March saying,
Speaker 3: you know, attention, comrades, this particular event is going to
Speaker 3: be a low risk event. We've decided that is what
Speaker 3: we need today. We've done a lot of work in
Speaker 3: the community getting community members to come out to this
Speaker 3: who maybe haven't been that involved in the past. A
Speaker 3: lot of older working class black people are going to
Speaker 3: be there. Please don't do anything that's going to attract
Speaker 3: extra attention from the cops. Don't do anything spicy, you know,
Speaker 3: don't break windows if they tell you to stay on
Speaker 3: the sidewalk, stay on the sidewalk. Not that there's anything
Speaker 3: wrong with those tactics right in general, And he went
Speaker 3: out of his way to say, we do not denounce
Speaker 3: these tactics in general.
Speaker 1: It is just not the right thing to do today
Speaker 1: at this particular thing.
Speaker 3: And everybody pretty much listened, and everybody bathed themselves, and
Speaker 3: I thought it was a really cool example of you know,
Speaker 3: the respect, the mutual respect across different different corners of
Speaker 3: this movement.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've definitely been thinking about that action in relation
Speaker 2: to this, to this upcoming kind of event. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: think it was on the Thursday of the fifth Week
Speaker 2: of Action, a few days after there was like the
Speaker 2: mass arrests at at the music festival, because I mean
Speaker 2: there they were in the in the in the lead
Speaker 2: up to that Community Movement Builders march, there were very
Speaker 2: similar questions around like, yeah, like who's going to enforce nonviolence,
Speaker 2: which really is kind of a silly question, and that
Speaker 2: there is you know, there is precedent absolutely of people
Speaker 2: like peace policing and even turning over people to the cops.
Speaker 2: That that that that is a precedent, but in this case,
Speaker 2: like you know, these specific people and community movement builders
Speaker 2: have been pretty down with the more militant aspects of
Speaker 2: this movement for years, and you know, in the in
Speaker 2: the hours before that action, you know, people sought and
Speaker 2: gained more clarification on like no, like we're not gonna
Speaker 2: like fuck you over, but like, hey, we're trying to
Speaker 2: like bring our grandmas and our kids to this. And
Speaker 2: not that the police need any excuse to you know,
Speaker 2: attack people, but this is you know, it's this is
Speaker 2: the thing that we're planning, this is what this is
Speaker 2: what we're trying to do. You don't have to come
Speaker 2: if you don't want to, you know, And it's it
Speaker 2: is that type of like mutual understanding and agreement that
Speaker 2: actions like this kind of rest on. Because I certainly
Speaker 2: know that there's there's probably a good deal of forest
Speaker 2: defenders who you know, would like to jump at the
Speaker 2: opportunity to do you know, spicy stuff on the site,
Speaker 2: because that's that's a you know, from their perspective, that's
Speaker 2: a very uh, it's a very attractive proposal, which you
Speaker 2: know also as president, in these types of big mass mobilizations,
Speaker 2: there's there's certainly aspects of that that kind of intersect
Speaker 2: with this especially. You know, one concern people may have
Speaker 2: is that this is being pushed as like, hey, we're
Speaker 2: you know, we're going to all these cities, We're trying
Speaker 2: to mobilize all these people, get a thousand people, we're
Speaker 2: all planning this thing together. There's a certain risk that
Speaker 2: that type of language could be turned against any of
Speaker 2: the possibly hundreds of people arrested on March thirteenth and
Speaker 2: rule these into and have that role in to the
Speaker 2: reco charges that people are facing in Georgia. Now, I
Speaker 2: also kind of, from my understanding, part of this action
Speaker 2: is to kind of showcase the kind of absurdity of
Speaker 2: these reco charges by by demonstrating this is like very
Speaker 2: typical civil rights kind of you know, social movement organizing.
Speaker 2: But I think those two things I think can actually
Speaker 2: coexist where yes, this is very typical civil rights organizing.
Speaker 2: And also the state specifically, you know, the state that
Speaker 2: you know in Atlanta have been have have not cared
Speaker 2: at all, is very is very willing to use these
Speaker 2: to use charges like this as a chilling tactic to
Speaker 2: suppress any future like protest or mobilization against cop City.
Speaker 2: So this is like, I think one other dynamic that
Speaker 2: people are certainly thinking about in terms of, you know,
Speaker 2: deciding if they want to participate in something like this.
Speaker 4: Sure, yeah, above all, one of the primary functions of repression,
Speaker 4: right is to scare us into inaction, right, And in
Speaker 4: the face of that, the worst thing that we can
Speaker 4: do is power away and shrink. And precisely, this type
Speaker 4: of mass mobilization is the ultimate show of solidarity with
Speaker 4: all people who have been swept up into various trumped
Speaker 4: up legal charges related to this movement. And and also
Speaker 4: there's you know, throughout the history of American social movements,
Speaker 4: there's there's there's president after president after precedent of people
Speaker 4: organizing their communities and their friends that they care about
Speaker 4: to travel to a place of you know, of injustice
Speaker 4: and stand in solidarity together. Right. This is like, this
Speaker 4: isn't a classic organizing tactic. It's nothing particularly new. It's
Speaker 4: the first time that I've been involved in sort of
Speaker 4: this scale of organizing and this sort of specific flavor.
Speaker 4: I think with any action, right, just because we call
Speaker 4: it non violence doesn't mean that violence won't occur on
Speaker 4: the site. Specifically, maybe at the hands of the police
Speaker 4: or other law enforcement agencies. Right, just because we call
Speaker 4: it non violence doesn't mean that there isn't risk involved. Right,
Speaker 4: with any action that we go to, there's risk involved.
Speaker 4: But you know, our understanding is that the risk of
Speaker 4: inaction far outweighs the risk of action in this moment.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because they're going to build that thing if nobody
Speaker 3: does anything. They're trying to build it right now. And
Speaker 3: what's going to happen after that, Well, there's going to
Speaker 3: be hundreds and hundreds more cops on the streets, trained
Speaker 3: in all the latest militarized technological ways to you know,
Speaker 3: oppress and terrorize civilian populations and put down the next
Speaker 3: big popular uprising, which they've connected it with very explicitly.
Speaker 1: So we should be thinking about it in that way too.
Speaker 4: And you know, we're a generation without victories, right. It
Speaker 4: just sort of feels like we I don't want to
Speaker 4: minimize real tangible wins that do indeed happen, but largely speaking,
Speaker 4: it feels like we're a generation without victories. We need
Speaker 4: to win social struggles, and tens of thousands of people
Speaker 4: from around the world are watching the defend the Atlanta
Speaker 4: Forest movement hoping that it wins. Right, So I sort
Speaker 4: of asked myself what would have happened if Standing Rock
Speaker 4: would have won? Right, Like Standing Rock raised the bar
Speaker 4: for what it means to resist a pipeline en camp
Speaker 4: in an unseated indigenous territory in this country. It raised
Speaker 4: the bar for that right. So the next time that
Speaker 4: invariably rules around, hopefully we can begin from that ploy
Speaker 4: that point. But the pipeline is built right, oil is
Speaker 4: flowing through it, oil is leaking through it. It didn't
Speaker 4: win that element of the work, and that's why it's
Speaker 4: important that we have victories. And that's why you know,
Speaker 4: there's so much, so many people pouring so much energy
Speaker 4: into the Defend the Atlanta Forest Stock cop City, No
Speaker 4: Hollywoodystopia campaign because we know it's winnable, but we need
Speaker 4: to ratchet up. And this is precisely the sort of
Speaker 4: level of accessible but also drastically heightened level of ratcheting
Speaker 4: up of our intensity of our collective power together that's
Speaker 4: possible in this moment.
Speaker 2: One thing that Sam you kind of mentioned earlier in
Speaker 2: this conversation is that this plan is really just one
Speaker 2: spear in the many. That's trying to put cracks in
Speaker 2: the facade of the Copsity project, and this action is
Speaker 2: really just being put in relation to a whole bunch
Speaker 2: of other things that could have happened that would eventually
Speaker 2: lead to cop City being stopped. I think that's a
Speaker 2: really important aspect to kind of clarify, because you know,
Speaker 2: there is some detractors who are you know, framing this
Speaker 2: action as being like the only you know, path forward
Speaker 2: that organizers are wanting to do, and I don't know,
Speaker 2: this is this movement's been very very based on people
Speaker 2: taking their own spontaneous action, and they're being not just
Speaker 2: one strategy, not just one plan. There's always a big,
Speaker 2: a big, you know, litany of things that could be
Speaker 2: going on, which all kind of starts to put pressure
Speaker 2: on this, on this house of cards, so to speak.
Speaker 4: There's a political crisis, a bruin in Atlanta that has
Speaker 4: been for a very long time. Right, Andre Dickens, for
Speaker 4: some reason, has put all of his chips into this thing,
Speaker 4: and he is like hated for it. Right. The Atlanta
Speaker 4: Police Foundation has taken out millions and millions and millions
Speaker 4: of dollars of loans to build this thing. If they
Speaker 4: fail to build cop City, which they will. Then they
Speaker 4: will default on those loans and they might go bankrupt.
Speaker 4: So this entire project is essentially a house of cards,
Speaker 4: and it doesn't really feel that way because it's being
Speaker 4: buttressed on all sides by corporations, by crony politicians, by
Speaker 4: big men with big guns, you know. But they're doing
Speaker 4: so precisely because it's fragile, precisely because it's a house
Speaker 4: of cards, and there's zero buy in from the community
Speaker 4: and from people and standing in solidarity around the world
Speaker 4: for this project. What could be a fatal death blow
Speaker 4: to this movement is a mass quantitative uptick in the
Speaker 4: number of people taking action in the forest, and that
Speaker 4: would be a new and novel blow to this thing
Speaker 4: that it hasn't really seen.
Speaker 3: There really is a battle happening over the like who
Speaker 3: gets to use this language of social justice and who
Speaker 3: gets to draw on the legacy of the civil rights movement? Right,
Speaker 3: And there are two really competing narratives right now. You
Speaker 3: have the stop Coop City movement, which has a pretty
Speaker 3: complete analysis, i would say, of the ways that racial
Speaker 3: oppression and class exploitation power American capitalism, right, and the
Speaker 3: ways that copcity feed into and enable.
Speaker 1: Those things with the help of the bourgeois state.
Speaker 3: And then you have the cynical take from the City
Speaker 3: of Atlanta and from the political class. I'm looking at
Speaker 3: a post that just I think just was posted by
Speaker 3: the City of Atlanta Twitter account. It says Mayor Andre
Speaker 3: for Atlanta welcomed guests to the March on Washington's sixtieth
Speaker 3: Dream Youth panel at North.
Speaker 1: Atlanta High School.
Speaker 3: Mayor Dickens highlighted the significance of mlk's nonviolence movement and
Speaker 3: shared his hopes that our youth will work together to
Speaker 3: fulfill Mlk's dream hashtag now sixty. So there we have
Speaker 3: a cynical attempt to harness the legacy of the civil
Speaker 3: rights movement, right, because what the fuck.
Speaker 1: Is he even talking about?
Speaker 3: Like, how are you going to work together to fulfill
Speaker 3: Mlk's dream of you know, freedom equality, Uh, not just
Speaker 3: in terms of who gets to buy things at.
Speaker 1: A particular store, but like.
Speaker 3: True economic power and equality for everyone, especially black proletarians
Speaker 3: who have served a very specific and important role in
Speaker 3: American capitalism. Right, what is he talking about if not
Speaker 3: like we're doing exactly what MLK used to do. This
Speaker 3: is a non violent act of civil disobedience. So what
Speaker 3: could he what else could he mean by that? Does
Speaker 3: he mean voting for Democrats? Does he mean, you know,
Speaker 3: working for NGOs? Does he mean joining.
Speaker 1: This political class?
Speaker 3: Because I think like it actually makes me feel better
Speaker 3: that the people of Atlanta seem to know that this
Speaker 3: is bullshit. Despite all of the propaganda that's been coming
Speaker 3: out from from the state and from the you know,
Speaker 3: the bourgeois media and the mainstream press that just kind
Speaker 3: of uncritically reports the things that the mayor says, the
Speaker 3: things that the cops say. The propaganda isn't working. One
Speaker 3: hundred and twenty thousand people signed this petition in a
Speaker 3: city of five hundred thousand. I mean, I think they
Speaker 3: can clearly see who's really carrying on this this project
Speaker 3: of social justice and equality.
Speaker 2: Great. I always I always love checking up on the
Speaker 2: City of Atlanta Twitter account because at least once a
Speaker 2: day they post some absolutely absurd thing. I guess because
Speaker 2: the last thing I think it's probably worth mentioning is
Speaker 2: that like a big part of this plan is trying
Speaker 2: to catalyze affinity groups to come to the city, you know,
Speaker 2: with you know, specifically with the idea of them participating
Speaker 2: in this in this action on thirteenth, but you know,
Speaker 2: nothing is stopping affinity groups from pursuing other forms of
Speaker 2: direct action during the for the four or so days
Speaker 2: they might be in town. I think it's you know,
Speaker 2: a big, a large part of this movement's been very
Speaker 2: based on like self determination and radical autonomy, whether that's
Speaker 2: that includes your ability to participate in you know, big
Speaker 2: big collective mas, big collective mass actions, or just having
Speaker 2: fun with your friends around the city, like what happened
Speaker 2: near the end of the last week of action where
Speaker 2: eight motorcycles mysteriously vanished from the material plane.
Speaker 4: So that.
Speaker 2: We're we're about a month away from this. If people
Speaker 2: are interested in want to kind of learn more information
Speaker 2: about this proposal, where can where can people find as
Speaker 2: said information?
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for that. We're currently in the middle of
Speaker 4: our Wei Lani worldwide mass action, speaking to our eighty
Speaker 4: cities from from Portland main to Portland, Oregon, Vancouver to Tijuana,
Speaker 4: and everywhere in between. Jamie and I will also be
Speaker 4: co hosting a zoom tour stop on Saturday, October fourteenth
Speaker 4: at three pm Eastern time. Check out Blochcopcity dot org
Speaker 4: for information on those tour stops, including the ones on Zoom.
Speaker 4: There's also going to be a schedule for the weekends
Speaker 4: festivities that is coming up quite soon, which could include
Speaker 4: several cultural events, welcoming ceremonies to in person spokes, council meetings,
Speaker 4: general direct action, non violent direct action trainings, as well
Speaker 4: as other ways to spend time quality time together down
Speaker 4: in the forest leading up to the mass action on
Speaker 4: the morning of Monday, November thirteenth. If people have resources
Speaker 4: they would like to donate to the movement, whether that
Speaker 4: be in the form of in person housing. Has helped
Speaker 4: with transportation, help with collective cooking processes, help with social
Speaker 4: media outreach, journalistic outreach, help with just thinking through this
Speaker 4: thing right and how we can make it as empowering
Speaker 4: and successful as possible and help sort of allow this
Speaker 4: to once again raise the bar for what it means
Speaker 4: to fight against deforestation, to fight against over policing in
Speaker 4: black and brown communities around the country, to fight against
Speaker 4: economic injustice, and the attack on dignified forms of like
Speaker 4: cross social movements and regions. You can contact us via
Speaker 4: our contact form on the web page which you can
Speaker 4: find on Blockopsity dot org, slash contact and there's a
Speaker 4: contact form to fill out. There's also a Gmail block
Speaker 4: coopsityat gmail dot com. So if any of those things
Speaker 4: are if you want to figure out how to plug in,
Speaker 4: feel free to direct your correspondence to one of those channels.
Speaker 1: Yeah, blockcopcity dot org. You can watch our hype video.
Speaker 1: You can read our invitation to action. Uh, you can.
Speaker 3: Well, the tour might be mostly over by then, but
Speaker 3: you can look at where the tour has been. Lots
Speaker 3: of good information on that website, and there's also lots
Speaker 3: of ways to get in touch. So yeah, hope to
Speaker 3: see you all in November.
Speaker 4: They you're cordially invited to activate an affinity group. Come
Speaker 4: down to November between Friday Veterans Day November tenth to
Speaker 4: Monday November thirteenth, and then also it's important to note
Speaker 4: that probably on the fourteenth and the fifteenth there'll be
Speaker 4: collective days of healing and anti repression work that will
Speaker 4: be happening city wide as well.
Speaker 2: That does it for us today on the show. Once again,
Speaker 2: thanks to Sam and Jamie for talking with me about
Speaker 2: this action. Hopefully you have a little bit more information
Speaker 2: about this than you had going into it. You can
Speaker 2: certainly find more information about this action and a variety
Speaker 2: of other opinions on the scenes. Do Noblog's website and
Speaker 2: other kind of anarchistic news websites if you want to
Speaker 2: go seeking out those other opinions. See you on the
Speaker 2: other side.
Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
Speaker 2: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you.
Speaker 1: Listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
Speaker 2: monthly at Coolzonmedia dot com slash sources.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.