1 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff. This is the story and Karaen 2 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: today you're in the host seat and I meek you 3 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: to hear what you got in store. 4 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:19,639 Speaker 2: I am. 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 3: It feels good. 6 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,279 Speaker 2: I feel very powerful and get ready. OZ today is 7 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: all about kid fluencers. 8 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: Kidfluencers, i e. Social media influencers who are under sixteen. 9 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 2: That's the correct portmanteau kid fluencer. I recently spoke with 10 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 2: Inez Novacik, who's the director of a six part docuseriies 11 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 2: for ABC News called Born to Be Viral, The Real 12 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 2: Lives of kid Fluencers. 13 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: This already caught my eye and when he told me 14 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: about it. But the concept of influencers I find one 15 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: part fascinating and frankly two parts horrifying. 16 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people would agree with you, 17 00:00:55,240 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 2: but also some don't. Kidfluencer content is extremely popular and 18 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 2: this will blow your hair back. One of the most 19 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 2: popular kidfluencers on the Internet has one hundred and twenty 20 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 2: nine million YouTube subscribers. 21 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: You know, I watched this documentary series a couple of 22 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: years ago about Charlie and Dixie Demilio, who, I guess what, 23 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: had just grown out of being influencers at the time, 24 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: they were probably eighteen and twenty, but had begun their 25 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: lives ask influencers and watching the family dynamics and the 26 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: pressure and the strain and the money and everything. I mean, 27 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: it was really I thought it was a very very 28 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: interesting documentary series. 29 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, clearly this subject elicits really strong opinions, 30 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 2: and that's why Hez set out to paint what I 31 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 2: think is a non judgmental portrait of the lives of 32 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 2: child influencers. She spent over five years following around three 33 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,279 Speaker 2: families in the business and documenting their day. 34 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: To day And who are the families. 35 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 3: Well, I'm going to let. 36 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 2: Her introduce you to all of the families, and the 37 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 2: first one is the Fisher family. 38 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 4: They are a Mormon family, so a lot of it 39 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 4: is infused by their belief of kind of family values 40 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 4: and the role of the family as a vehicle for 41 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 4: good in the world. So everyone's in the videos, the 42 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 4: whole family. Now, they have five kids and they just 43 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 4: film their regular, every day everything they do. 44 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 2: So here's the Fisher family dressed as the main characters 45 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: from The Wizard of Oz on Halloween. 46 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: Just looks this is more fun than my childhood. 47 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 2: Well, I was going to say could your childhood pass 48 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 2: the test of being a kid fluenza? 49 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: Absolutely no. I mean there's two parents, both dressed up 50 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: looking super happy, and then there are five kids with 51 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: some of the best looking costumes I've ever seen. 52 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: Another family she spent time with is the McClure family. 53 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 3: Here she is again. 54 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 4: The McClures are a biracial family. Ammy is an immigrant 55 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 4: from Nigeria. Immy McClure. She's the mom who not only 56 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 4: got into this more accidentally through a video that happened 57 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 4: to go viral, and then they harnessed that virality and 58 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:07,239 Speaker 4: that's allowed them to make a living sharing their kids 59 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,519 Speaker 4: and their life on social media. You know how I 60 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 4: used to you all the time. 61 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 1: And you're too young to know. 62 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 4: The McClure family are more planned in what they do, 63 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 4: so it's kind of like family friendly skits. So you know, 64 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 4: in the series, we we do behind the scenes of 65 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 4: such a video where the dad justin gets dressed up 66 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 4: as Spider Man, So what am I? So they're kind 67 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 4: of like creating many episodes where the family is doing 68 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 4: stuff for their entertainment brand, as they call it. 69 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: Inez also followed Ethan Rodriguez and his mom, Daisy they. 70 00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 4: Are aspiring to build a kid influencer empire and dream 71 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 4: what kind of videos are we going to be doing? 72 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 2: Then? Picnic? You know, I said, what kind of videos 73 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 2: are we going to be doing? 74 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 4: For this? Tiwn? Okay again, what's up? 75 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 2: Then? When you're holding the camera hold it out like 76 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 2: I didn't, so like you're kind of like so you 77 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 2: can grab yourself, don't move too much? 78 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 4: Okay? Rights me? And they again are an embodiment not 79 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 4: just of this I think allure and follower culture and 80 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 4: this fame kind of culture we have right now, but 81 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 4: also I think that they show a glimpse into the 82 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 4: economic realities facing many Americans today. 83 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: We had some home videos in the Welsh and household 84 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: when I was growing up, but they were few and 85 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: far between. But I imagine the psychological effects as a 86 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: kid of being on the whole time and science perform 87 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: when the camera comes out, and also kind of knowing 88 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: I guess internally or intuitively that like your performance may 89 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: some financial consequences for the families. It reminds me of 90 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: a tweet I once saw where somebody Toddler said, don't 91 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: forget to subscribe as he was being touched in for 92 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: bed because he thought that meant goodbye. 93 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 3: That's so crazy, good night, mom. 94 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 2: Don't forget to like and subscribe. 95 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: I mean, we think and talk a lot about what 96 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: the deluge of social media and content is doing to 97 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: kids just by consuming it. But imagine what it's like 98 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: to be kind of an active participant in it from 99 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: such an early age. 100 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting because the docuseries does depict some 101 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 2: of the sinister side of all of this. 102 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 4: We filmed some things that the families regret doing that 103 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 4: are hard to watch, that ended up with kids being upset, 104 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 4: and then they talk about why they would never do 105 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 4: it again, instead of asking us to just not show it. 106 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: Inez says, these are stories of deeply loving families who 107 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: are media savvy and who are finding a way to 108 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 2: provide for their kids. So Inez set out to make 109 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 2: a series about family and family life where social media 110 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 2: happens to play a big role, because, in her mind, 111 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,799 Speaker 2: the kidfluencer movement evolved from the success of mommy bloggers 112 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 2: in the early twenty tens. 113 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 4: Here's anes the child influencer phenomenon. I think could not 114 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 4: have been built without the mommy influencer and the figure 115 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 4: of the mother. And because I think at the time 116 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 4: when it was going on, it was dismissed by the 117 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 4: serious journalistic powers. The coverage was relegated to sort of 118 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 4: more pop culture dimension, So mommy bloggers were not covered 119 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 4: by Wall Street journal tech reporters in the same way 120 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 4: as like, you know, a Mark Zuckerberg or a startup founder. 121 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 4: It was like, e, these are silly women and they're 122 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 4: doing silly brand deals. And then without realizing it, in 123 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 4: our society, all of a sudden, it seems like, wait, 124 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 4: you know a kid is making twenty five million dollars, 125 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 4: Like what's wrong with our world? These parents are bad? 126 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 4: And I think if we're failing these kids and even 127 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 4: these families, it's because there was such a big gap 128 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 4: of taking it seriously and seeing it as the business 129 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 4: that it was, and seeing it as female founders and 130 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 4: seeing it now as family founders. And I'm not putting 131 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 4: a value judgment saying they're right or they're wrong, or 132 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 4: they're good or they're bad, but I think we did 133 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 4: them a disservice. And now it's sort of like the 134 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 4: train is running without a driver, and now we're all reactionary. 135 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 2: And that's where I wanted to start my conversation with 136 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 2: Inez with how these families considered and addressed the mounting 137 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 2: criticisms of the kidfluencer space. Here's the rest of our conversation. 138 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 2: What are some of the most common criticisms about this 139 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: kind of work and how did each family consider those 140 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: criticisms and address them. 141 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 4: No, it's a really important question, and I think what 142 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 4: I loved about doing the series is that, you know, 143 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 4: it always brings strong opinions, and usually it's you know, 144 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 4: either I'm against these families doing this, or you know, 145 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 4: power to them. They're spending time with their families and 146 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 4: making a lot of money. It's the new American dream. 147 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 4: And what the families have said to me, in the 148 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 4: case of the Fishers, they really see it as, Oh, 149 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 4: I'm infusing social media and the interness with images of 150 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 4: a happy family, with cuteness, with a genuine sort of 151 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 4: value system that prizes families and kids. And that's at 152 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 4: a time when a lot of social media focuses on 153 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 4: negativity wars, politics debate. You know, they sort of say, 154 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:44,959 Speaker 4: you want to cast us as bad, like look at 155 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 4: general content, you know, and they say that they welcome 156 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 4: and would welcome any regulation like the parents in the 157 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 4: Fisher family, Madisone and Kyler both gravitated towards Hollywood. Madison 158 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 4: was a child actor and model wanted to make in Hollywood. 159 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 4: So did Kyler. And so they say, you know, if 160 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,959 Speaker 4: we could have the same type of framework like what 161 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 4: California offers through the Cougan Law protecting the earnings of children, 162 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 4: we would do that for our kids. And anyway, they say, 163 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 4: we are good parents. We set aside money for our kids, 164 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 4: and we're earning a lot of money that we now 165 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 4: spend on our kids and will continue to And so 166 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 4: they say that for these three reasons, to them and 167 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 4: to others, it should be clear that they are not 168 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 4: exploiting their children. And the McClures similarly, are frustrated that 169 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 4: this backlash against family and child content creators has swept 170 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 4: them up in the same tide. And they are very 171 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 4: confident in the fact of their good parenting style and 172 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 4: their relationship with their kids and the way they do 173 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 4: things to say, you know, categorically, we do not exploit 174 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 4: our children. We raise them well and leave us alone. Basically, 175 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 4: you know, like, why are you trying to paint us 176 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 4: with the same brush as somebody who is exploiting their children, 177 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 4: And so, you know, I think it might seem obvious 178 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 4: to people to cast and lay the blame at the 179 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 4: foot of the parents, right, I think that's sort of 180 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 4: a reflex reaction. It's like, oh, these parents are doing this, 181 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 4: they are bad, and they should be better, they should 182 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 4: be doing something about this. But to me, I think 183 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 4: I look at it from another dimension as well, where 184 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 4: I look at well, why are we not putting that 185 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 4: same blame on the brands that work with these families, 186 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 4: the platforms that host their content, and even the viewers 187 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 4: who empower their existence, Because the only reason this type 188 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 4: of content exists is because there is a demand for us. 189 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 2: Is there any sense of what this type of virality 190 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 2: and pressure has on kids? Like, has there been significant 191 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 2: or meaningful recent search on this? 192 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 4: The short answer is no, But I will caveat that 193 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 4: by saying it's because this is so new, and I 194 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 4: think kind of like laws are always late to follow 195 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 4: certain trends, it's the same with this type of research. 196 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 4: You know, I when I started out Carara, I was 197 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 4: looking for a specialist, a child psychologist or child psychiatrists 198 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 4: who worked with children influencers to answer that exact question. 199 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 4: There simply wasn't anyone like I. You know, I talked 200 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 4: to a few people who had maybe worked with child 201 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 4: stars or had studied them, or were academics and had 202 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 4: thought about it. But even if you said kid influencers, 203 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 4: they thought teenagers. And I think the term. 204 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 3: Kid influencers no, no, no, ye, these. 205 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 4: Are babies, babies to you know, to age ten. And 206 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 4: so it's shocking to me. I guess that they's still 207 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 4: not research into the impact of social media on young children, 208 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 4: and that even is too general. I would kind of 209 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 4: subhead that and say, okay, well, what is the impact 210 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 4: on the consumerism culture when you start that early with kids? 211 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 4: What is the impact on family ties? What is the 212 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 4: impact on your concept of self and selfhood or on values? 213 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 4: Do these kids understand the difference in themselves, like, you know, neurologically, psychologically, 214 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 4: on filming time being different to family time and privacy, 215 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 4: and so aren't we all somewhat complicit? Is a question 216 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 4: that I kept coming back to in making this series. 217 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 4: You know, I really had to think hard about, you know, 218 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 4: what is my role in all this? And that concern 219 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 4: trickle down into the way we filmed. We filmed with 220 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 4: me and one other person. We filmed where we interview 221 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 4: the kids only for a few minutes at a time 222 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 4: at a time when they said yes. So it would 223 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 4: happen where we'd set up a whole interview, the kids 224 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 4: would come in and then like thirty seconds and they'd 225 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 4: be like, can we just go play? And we're like yeah, 226 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 4: you know, go right right. So I wanted to make 227 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:18,719 Speaker 4: sure that those questions and you know, how are these 228 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 4: kids going to react when they watched this in twenty 229 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 4: years is something that kind of guided the way I 230 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 4: worked throughout making this series. 231 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 2: Well, I just think, you know, you followed these families 232 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 2: for five years, which is a very long time. I 233 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 2: wonder what changes you noticed throughout this time, and what 234 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 2: were the things that stayed with you about following families 235 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 2: for this long. 236 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 4: You know, I think five years, on one hand, is 237 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 4: so long, and then on the other hand, I feel 238 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 4: like I would have expected more to change tangibly. But 239 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 4: these kids are still so little, you know, they were 240 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 4: so little when we started filming, and now the oldest 241 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 4: of them are twelve, and so I don't know yet, 242 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 4: and I still don't have the benefit of hide and 243 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 4: sight to be able to say you know, this definitively changed, 244 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 4: But what evolved certainly was their relationship to the work 245 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 4: they were doing, their relationship to social media. And interestingly, 246 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 4: all of the families who we follow at well, I 247 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 4: shouldn't say all the McClure and Fisher families who were 248 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 4: kind of rising in levels of success throughout our filming, 249 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 4: at one point found themselves in the exact same place 250 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 4: of do we give in to trends or do we 251 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 4: stay true to our family? And they both face that question. 252 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 4: So the series tells the story of these families, but 253 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 4: I think also traces the context and the business of 254 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 4: social media as it's evolved over those five years. You know, 255 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 4: the world of social media today is so different to 256 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 4: what it was even when I started researching this in 257 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 4: twenty eighteen and then started filming the year following. So 258 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 4: you've got platforms that are popular today that didn't exist 259 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 4: back then and were kind of irrelevant. You know. The 260 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 4: most obvious one is perhaps TikTok. YouTube was probably where 261 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 4: most of these families would have focused their content, and 262 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 4: then the rise of TikTok created this ripple effect on 263 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 4: other platforms where YouTube started, YouTube shorts, Instagram now has 264 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 4: stories and reels, and it became about short form content. 265 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 4: Short form is king, so the way these families make 266 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 4: money has to change. They're not investing as much time 267 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 4: in filming these old school you know, I say old 268 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 4: school this is like seven years ago, but vlogs at 269 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 4: last for fifteen twenty minutes, where they're not really doing 270 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 4: many cuts, even though they're having maybe some on screen 271 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 4: pop ups to jush up the content. But the way 272 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 4: they're filming now is more strategic, but they're doing more 273 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 4: shorter form content. So things like that have really impacted 274 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 4: the way that these families I think planned for and 275 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 4: plan for monetizing the content that they make. 276 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 2: Did the parents share other motivations or considerations that they 277 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 2: weighed when choosing this path for their kids and their family. 278 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 4: The parents did talk a lot about not just how 279 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 4: they got into this, but why they maybe wanted to 280 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 4: get into this, and then why they stayed doing it. 281 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 4: And I think that while each story is unique, because 282 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 4: the parents have their own backstory, there's this general question 283 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 4: of am I living through my kids? How do I 284 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 4: think about that? How do I think I'm doing that? 285 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 4: Am I doing it somewhat or to a certain extent. 286 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 4: So there's the financial motives, which is that you can 287 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 4: earn a lot of money doing this, and I think 288 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 4: people still don't realize just how much money you can make. 289 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 4: And I think a lot of families are not necessarily 290 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 4: making millions and millions of dollars. That's just a few 291 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 4: people and the other families aspired to be like them. 292 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 4: But hundreds of thousands of families are making six figures 293 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 4: doing this. 294 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 2: Which is more than they might be making doing something 295 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 2: else exactly. 296 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 4: And then their motivation also, they've told me, is really 297 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 4: wanting to spend time at home with their kids. So 298 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 4: in a world where if you want to earn a 299 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 4: good living, it is demanding on your time, you're out 300 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,959 Speaker 4: of the house, usually two parents working. There's childcare involved. 301 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 4: These parents say that this completely liberates them from those 302 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 4: concerns of missing out on their kids' childhoods, and they 303 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 4: they're with their kids all the time and that is 304 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 4: a huge drole for them. And then you know, in 305 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 4: doing this work, they've realized that the future is social media. 306 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 4: So they see what they're doing as building a legacy, 307 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 4: in their words, for their kids, so their kids will 308 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 4: grow up to be eighteen they will in Harris accounts 309 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 4: with the following of five, ten, fifteen million people, and 310 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 4: then they can do without what they want because that 311 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 4: is real power, even in today's world, and they see 312 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 4: it as only becoming more powerful as time goes on. 313 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 3: So I never thought of it that way. 314 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 2: So they're thinking about it as like generational wealth, almost 315 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 2: like a transfer of wealth exactly. 316 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 4: Yes, this is value in today's culture. Currency is attention, 317 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 4: and that attention are those followers and those subscribers who 318 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 4: these children have on their accounts and then can take over, 319 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,239 Speaker 4: you know, they can take over their accounts technically when 320 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 4: they're thirteen and the first generation of kids are who 321 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 4: we follow are going to be thirteen in the next 322 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 4: year or so. But more than that, when they're eighteen, 323 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 4: you know, who knows what will happen by then can 324 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 4: that compound? You know? Even the stark difference of the 325 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 4: first interview with Evan alexis where they're talking about, you know, 326 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 4: how many followers you have? They say five hundred million 327 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 4: or one hundred million, and then they say, yeah, because 328 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 4: that's not even a lot of money, right. They don't 329 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 4: like followers of money like they're they're not they're the 330 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 4: same word, like it doesn't matter. And then by the 331 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 4: end of it, they know what a brand deal is, 332 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 4: they know how much money or they think they know 333 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 4: how much money they're making from a brand deal. They 334 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 4: start to understand these concepts, And I really wanted that 335 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 4: to be part of the story too, because they were 336 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 4: so little and even now they're so little, Like now 337 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 4: they literally turned twelve, like a week ago. They're so little. 338 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 2: One other thing that surprised me is like how much 339 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 2: this work created a vacuum and that some of the 340 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 2: kids decided to be homeschooled so that they could create 341 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,959 Speaker 2: more content throughout the day. And you know, the mccler 342 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 2: twins said they wanted to take over the business and 343 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 2: eventually become actresses, and you know, underscores your point of 344 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 2: this being a family business and a source of inherited wealth. 345 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 2: So I'm I'm curious if you made that connection as well. 346 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I think in the case of the McClure's, 347 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 4: these kids were very outgoing and before they were even 348 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 4: eleven twelve and saying they wanted to be actresses and 349 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 4: making their own content. They were on red carpets they 350 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 4: like interviewed Steve Corell. They've had opportunities, they wrote a 351 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 4: kid's fashion book. They were always very outgoing kids, so 352 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 4: with them, it didn't surprise me that they would say 353 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 4: something like that. Now, their understanding of it and their 354 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 4: seriousness and conviction in us is something that was I 355 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 4: think nurtured by the fact of kind of growing up 356 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 4: on camera and their parents encouraging them to pursue that. 357 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 4: And I think when they want to be homeschooled and 358 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 4: they want to be actresses, I think it's sort of 359 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 4: like the sum of all those things is the reason why. 360 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 2: After the break, who are these millions of followers stay 361 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 2: with us? I think what's even more confounding to me 362 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 2: is who the audience is, and that the audience is 363 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 2: so vast for these families, and they're so aware of 364 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 2: their audience, like they're not pushing this into a vacuum. 365 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 2: They're aware that there are people that will consume this content. So, 366 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 2: you know, in making this doc, who did you find 367 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 2: is like the demographic. 368 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 4: As much as social media and the mechanisms of the 369 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,199 Speaker 4: business of these apps evolve, so does the demographic. Because 370 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 4: of course the kids are also growing up, so perhaps 371 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 4: when they're three years old, the main demo are parent 372 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 4: run accounts of kids or family accounts who watch them 373 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 4: for that reason, kids watch kids. That's how Ethan got 374 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 4: into this. He watched Ryan from Ryan's toy review. He 375 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 4: now wants to be a kid influencer. So there's a 376 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 4: child audience in this and a family audience. But then 377 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 4: we filmed with the McClures hosting a birthday party for 378 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 4: their son and they invited their followers and most of 379 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 4: those followers were actually adults, and they were adults who 380 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 4: were watching the twins because they reminded them of their kids. 381 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 4: There was a woman who, you know, jokingly said I 382 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,639 Speaker 4: can be your Internet grandma, and you know, said she 383 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 4: watched them for hours a day their family channel because 384 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 4: it reminded her of when she had babies. So they 385 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 4: really can run the gamut because by the end of 386 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 4: the series, the McLure Twins, they just turned twelve, and 387 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 4: when they look at their analytics as we're filming them, 388 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 4: they discover that thirty percent now of their audience is 389 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 4: male ages. You know, maybe twin to forty. I can't 390 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 4: member exactly, but sort of like thirty ish and that 391 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 4: was new, and I think the audience is varied, and 392 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 4: I think for journalists and even for myself as a filmmaker, 393 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 4: it was very hard to get the hard data without 394 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 4: relying on the families sharing with me their insights and analytics, 395 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 4: because these creators, they're actually making content in response to 396 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 4: the insights and analytics that they are seeing on their 397 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 4: dashboards on their back end to say, if this isn't 398 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 4: doing well, you should do this, which is doing well. 399 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 4: And it's not just the families deciding to do this, 400 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:45,360 Speaker 4: they are being encouraged by their quote unquote partners at 401 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 4: these platforms, so that these platforms have a staff of 402 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 4: people tasked with and dedicated to working with these families, 403 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 4: guiding them on what their audience is responding to and 404 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 4: how to adapt in real time. So it's quite a 405 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 4: sophisticated mechanism, and it's how quickly they're able to adapt 406 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 4: to that advice in these trends directly impact how they're 407 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 4: able to earn a living. 408 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, last episode, you mentioned that as of June twenty 409 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 2: twenty five, several states have passed laws to protect the 410 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 2: earnings of child influencers, but that experts warn that these 411 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,479 Speaker 2: regulations could be difficult to enforce. You also mentioned that 412 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 2: popular platforms for YouTube metat TikTok say they have policies 413 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 2: in place to protect minors from abuse, exploitation, and sexualization. 414 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 2: Why give this context to the viewers as they finish 415 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 2: the series? Why is that important? 416 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 4: I think it's important because it's what comes next, and 417 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 4: it's what I want viewers to think about as they're 418 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 4: walking away from the series. I think it reinforces the 419 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 4: work we tried to do in the story to weave 420 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 4: in the context of social media and public opinion about 421 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 4: children and family creators. And then as we were finishing 422 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 4: filming and finishing editing, some changes happened that I felt 423 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 4: were an important part of that contextual framework. There are 424 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 4: a handful of states that have passed laws to protect 425 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 4: the earnings of child influencers child content creators. However, if 426 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 4: you read what the stipulations are and how they define 427 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 4: is a channel a kid channel? I am skeptical knowing 428 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 4: how hard it was for me, for example, simply to 429 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 4: request firsthand data of who viewers are of this content. 430 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,959 Speaker 4: I wonder how we're going to get the data that 431 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 4: breaks down how many minutes per video a child is 432 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 4: featured in to be able to ascertain Okay, does it 433 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 4: qualify as a children's channel? Okay, then it is subject 434 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 4: to having to put a certain amount in savings account 435 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 4: of trust for the child to access at eighteen. You know, 436 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 4: it's sort of the specifics matter. You know, if we're 437 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 4: going to go through the effort to pass these laws 438 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 4: and to celebrate them, we need to ensure that their 439 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 4: enforceability is viable. We need to ensure that they're not 440 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 4: framed in such a way or diluted, perhaps in such 441 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 4: a way that you actually can't enforce it. Like maybe 442 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 4: I'm wrong, but it strikes me as a somewhat tedious 443 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 4: task to go through and say, okay, let me calculate 444 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 4: how many minutes, Like who's going to do that? The 445 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 4: platforms have sort of said they're not going to do that, 446 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 4: so then okay, who is going to do that? And 447 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 4: if it's going to be a nonprofit organization or a 448 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 4: different type of entity, who is paying for this? The 449 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 4: platforms don't seem to want to pay for that, so 450 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 4: is it taxpayers? I just, you know, I feel like 451 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 4: I'm not clear on how these laws are going to 452 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 4: be enforced, and I like the families. I do think 453 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 4: we need laws because there is so much money at 454 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 4: stake and so many considerations about families, children, privacy that 455 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 4: hang in that balance. Right. 456 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 2: You said earlier about this idea of like generational wealth, 457 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 2: and you have someone has to sort of tend to 458 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 2: the beast to a certain extent, and I just think 459 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 2: it's very interesting. I mean, look at the Kardashians, right, 460 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,239 Speaker 2: I mean, they're the most famous version of this. You know, 461 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 2: it's like you look at the new generation of Kardashians, 462 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 2: all of these kids who are now on the shows, 463 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 2: and it's not out of the realm of possibility that 464 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 2: there can be generations of influencers if you do it 465 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 2: for long enough. 466 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 4: Yes, and can I I'm just going to complicate this 467 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 4: even further. So that is a way. I'm glad you're 468 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 4: looking at it. However, they don't own it, these families 469 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 4: who are the early families and early adopters. It's like mortgage. 470 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 4: They don't own the house. They pay the mortgage to 471 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 4: the platform that they're on. So the question of ownership 472 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 4: and who owns the image is a complicated one. You know, France, 473 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 4: for example, has past the law that they don't just 474 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 4: protect the earnings of a child influencer, but they protect 475 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 4: the privacy and any child has the right to say, 476 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 4: I want you to take down this content because I 477 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 4: own my image and I kind of holistically own it. 478 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 4: Denmark has passed a bill where I think it gives 479 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 4: its citizens the right to own their likeness and image 480 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 4: so that they have power over it in online spaces. 481 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 4: One state in the US passed a bill that stipulated 482 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 4: financial protections as well as privacy protections, but that was 483 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 4: just one There's no federal regulation and most of it, 484 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 4: you know, most of the discourse is about the finances. 485 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 4: But I think it's important to add that these families 486 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 4: are making money, yes, and they have money on their 487 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 4: YouTube accounts, and they're growing this legacy for their kids. 488 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 4: But Kyler Fisher told us YouTube keeps fifty percent of 489 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 4: the earnings from a tense, So I don't know if 490 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 4: it's fair to say the families are making sense to 491 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 4: the dollar that YouTube is making for the content the 492 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 4: families produced, but you know, it is a significant portion. 493 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 4: It's sort of you know, like if you're an artist 494 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 4: in a gallery represents you, you probably understand the dynamic. 495 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 2: YouTube has a lot of the power and just to 496 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 2: financially speak. It reminds me, I mean, you know, and 497 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 2: it is what's interesting to me about people being up 498 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 2: in arms about children's content. 499 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 3: Now, it's not like this is new. 500 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 2: It's just the means of dissemination is newer and more 501 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 2: accessible to more people. 502 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 3: But you know, I mean, I think of any child actor, right. 503 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 4: People love to compare kid influencers to child stars. What's 504 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 4: different and what's interesting is not that YouTube is keeping 505 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 4: the earnings. You know, studios owned the likeness, and but 506 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 4: what's interesting is the intimate dimension of family life lived 507 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 4: with social media at the center, and children growing up 508 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 4: in a world where they are living their life or 509 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 4: are they performing their life and they're spending time with 510 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 4: their family, and they're all in this together, and that 511 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 4: part is new and that part is unique, and that 512 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 4: part is not like the child stars. You know, the 513 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 4: families make the point, you know, it's exactly like what 514 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 4: Hollywood used to do, but we do it in our. 515 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 3: Homes, which is very different. 516 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 4: It is very different. And you know, I can see 517 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 4: their points about it having its positives, you know, like 518 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 4: the likelihood of a parent, if it's a good parent 519 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 4: forcing their kids or exhausting their kids is less right 520 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 4: than if you had them on set. But then again, 521 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 4: on set this external kind of infrastructure to safeguard whether 522 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 4: they're getting they're schooling done, you know, set breaks, lunch hours. 523 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 4: You know that, I think we're all uncomfortable on some 524 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 4: level with the fact that that doesn't exist at home. 525 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 4: But then if you think about it, if you're a parent, 526 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 4: who's going to look after your kid better than you? 527 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 4: And so I can understand it, But I, like you 528 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 4: find myself thinking, like, what is it about this that 529 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 4: like draws so many people into watching it? And you know, 530 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 4: clearly there's something happening in our culture that has become 531 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 4: symptomatic to the point that so many people find solace 532 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 4: and find themselves drawn to watching this kind of content. 533 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 2: You almost don't want to see overly edited. You want 534 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 2: to see a family doing the boring family stuff because 535 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 2: in a way, the more privacy, the less interesting I 536 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 2: think it is. 537 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 4: You know so, But then again, but then again, Kara, 538 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 4: I would counter by saying, I think it's sold to 539 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 4: us as raw and and authentic, but in fact, and 540 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 4: you know, in making the series and observing the way 541 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 4: these parents make content or describe to us their process 542 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 4: of making content. It is kind of calculated. You know. 543 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 4: They're not just filming all day every day. They have 544 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 4: a brand deal, they got a film, they do it 545 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 4: in ten minutes and then they upload it. They see 546 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 4: their numbers, the YouTube rep tells them, is this the 547 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 4: way to go? Or change it? So it's actually like 548 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 4: not that organic, but it's real people. And so I 549 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 4: think the word parasocial is on point and totally right. 550 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 4: But I think we should be wary of accepting that 551 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 4: this is, you know, the reality. And to me, then 552 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 4: that's like the really interesting part. It's like, well, why 553 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 4: am I giving my time, perhaps away from my real 554 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 4: family and life to be watching someone else's family in 555 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 4: life that I believe to be real? But I know 556 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 4: it's perhaps not real. And you know, I think there's 557 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 4: something to be said for is it nice that people 558 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 4: just want to watch families? Like? Are we watching them 559 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 4: in good faith? Because it's nice and comforting and it's 560 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 4: a way to escape the stresses of life, Like is 561 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 4: it escapism? What is it? 562 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 2: Some of it is cuteness, I mean not to be Yeah, 563 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 2: you're right, you know, I think that's it's the same 564 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 2: with dogs and animal content, like I think that stuff 565 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 2: works because it makes people feel It's like a dopamine 566 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 2: hit of cuteness. 567 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 4: But then it's like interesting, Like Okay, Well, when the 568 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 4: kids are older and if they're teenagers and they don't 569 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 4: want to be cute, they want to be something else, 570 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 4: what happens. I don't say this in like judgment, but like, 571 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 4: if all we're drawn to in this parasocial observance of 572 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 4: social media families and kids is the cute and the 573 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 4: good and the sweet, Like, what does that say about 574 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 4: like our motivations as the viewers to it? You know? 575 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 4: It is there a lack of that in our we 576 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 4: satisfying a lack of it by engaging in viewing this 577 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,760 Speaker 4: or are we just sort of avoiding something in our lives? 578 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 4: I don't know, not to get not to get too 579 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:13,720 Speaker 4: introspective or dark. 580 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 2: No, I wonder I wonder it too. Like what is 581 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 2: ironic is that the thing that is driving our separation 582 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 2: is the thing that we continue to return to, and 583 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 2: it's it really is much easier to open your phone 584 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 2: than it is to open your door. You know, I 585 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 2: think I think for people are very lonely. So just finally, 586 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 2: I mean, you must have had so much footage. Was 587 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 2: there anything that you wish you could have put in 588 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,839 Speaker 2: this docuseries that just could didn't make it in? 589 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,320 Speaker 4: Yes, so much. I would have loved to be able 590 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 4: to get at the dangers facing young girls on social media. 591 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 4: That data does exist, and these beauty standards that exist 592 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 4: and are perpetuated. You know, I think we all have 593 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 4: heard the term Instagram face, the crossover of filters onto 594 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 4: plastic surgery tables, where younger girls are getting plastic surgery 595 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 4: to look a certain way due to these beauty standards. 596 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 4: And I think the families and I talked a lot 597 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 4: about that, and the moms talked about that and how 598 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,919 Speaker 4: they think about that, And I also would have loved 599 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 4: to be able to get into you know, if this 600 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 4: is the new American dream, it's in response to, I 601 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 4: think a nightmare that many families are facing today of 602 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 4: an inability to provide for their families, inflation, insecurity, and 603 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 4: how the world of social media and families on social media, 604 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 4: and the hierarchies in it and the economic hierarchies in 605 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 4: it mimic and reflect what exists in the real world. 606 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 4: You know, it might sound hyperbolic, but I really think 607 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 4: We're sort of at a crossroads of a new not 608 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 4: just generation of kids growing up on social media, but 609 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 4: a new way of conceiving selfhood. You know, I'm just 610 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 4: dying to know what these kids are going to be 611 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 4: like and what these families are going to be doing 612 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:15,240 Speaker 4: in five years, in fifteen years. So I'm actually pretty 613 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 4: invested in continuing to film. That's the plan. 614 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 2: Oh interesting, Well, this has been so informative, and I 615 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 2: do hope that you get to continue shooting because I 616 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 2: think you're telling a story of what it is like 617 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,959 Speaker 2: to be an American family. But I do think it's 618 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 2: these are very formidable businesses and there's a lot of 619 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 2: money being. 620 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 4: Exchanged, and we need more attention to it so that 621 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 4: we can protect these kids. Yeah, and my personal sort 622 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 4: of philosophy and work philosophy is that, especially if something 623 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 4: is taboo, we should be talking about it. We should 624 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 4: not be shying away from difficult conversations. We should be 625 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 4: having them, and I will keep going. 626 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,399 Speaker 2: That's in Neznovacich, the director of the docu series Born 627 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 2: to Be Viral, The Real Lives of Kid Fluencers. 628 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 3: For Tech Stuff. 629 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,280 Speaker 2: I'm Kara Price. This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis, 630 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 2: Adrianna Tapia, and Tyler Hill. It was executive produced by 631 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,720 Speaker 2: me Ozwaaloshan and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvel 632 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,439 Speaker 2: for iHeart Podcasts. Jack Insley mixed this episode and Kyle 633 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 2: Murdoch wrote our theme song. Join us on Friday for 634 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,839 Speaker 2: the Week in tech Oz and I will run through 635 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,240 Speaker 2: the tech headlines you may have missed. Please rate, review, 636 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 2: and reach out to us at tech Stuff podcast at 637 00:37:53,800 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 2: gmail dot com.