1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:16,159 Speaker 1: Body backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. I lived in the 2 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: mountains from the time as a college professor up in 3 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: the North George Mountains, in the Blue Ridge Mountains specifically, 4 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: there's a place I'd like to go to every now 5 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: and then and hop in my truck, sometimes by myself, 6 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: many times with my son and to my wife, and 7 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: I would go up there on the weekends as well, 8 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: and it's one of those places that's untouched. It's a 9 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: federal park. It's called Windfield Scott and there's actually a 10 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: lake Windfield Scott up there, and when you see it, 11 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: it's surrounded by hemlock trees and these big beautiful indigenous pines, 12 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: some hardwoods, and the lake is stocked with trout. But 13 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,279 Speaker 1: you know, the thing about that lake is that on 14 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 1: the surface it's absolute gorgeous. The water seems almost untouched, 15 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: and you can take photos up there and it's like 16 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: it's frozen in time, a place of a beauty. You 17 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: almost hate to disturb the water. But the moment you 18 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: pick up a stone and you throw it as you're 19 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: standing on the bank, into the middle of it, there's 20 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: a ripple that goes out and anything that's on the 21 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: surface is affected. Even the picture you have in your 22 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,839 Speaker 1: mind's eye of it is disrupted, and for that moment 23 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 1: in time, you've changed the face of that otherwise pristine environment. 24 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: I think, at least in my way of thinking, that 25 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: sixty years ago in Dallas, Texas, that's kind of what happened. 26 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: That's what happened on November twenty second, when our president 27 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: at the time, John F. Kennedy was shot. Because there 28 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: were those times prior to President Kennedy having been assassinated murdered, 29 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: and those times afterwards, and we as a country, I 30 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: think at least my generation marks that time that way. 31 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 1: Today we're gonna chat about the failures of the medical 32 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: legal system in John F. Kennedy's assassination investigation. I'm Joseph 33 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags. Hey, David, you know 34 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: where I was when John Kennedy was murdered. 35 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 2: I'm thinking you probably weren't born yet. 36 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: I was in utero. I was in my mommy's tummy 37 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: as it were. Yeah, that's where I was. And still, 38 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: even though you know, I obviously don't have a real 39 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: time connection to that event, so many of my friends 40 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: do that are older, and you can talk to those 41 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: folks and say, do you remember where you were when 42 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: the president was murdered, and they will be able to 43 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: tell you just spot on, you know, what they were doing, 44 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: where they were. It's kind of, you know, it's kind 45 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: of like nine to eleven, you know, you ask people, now, 46 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: where were you, what were you doing? And I think 47 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: that it's maybe you could, I don't know, maybe you 48 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: could go back to Abraham Lincoln's time, you know where 49 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: if you could talk to those people that were living 50 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: during that time post Civil war, immediately post Civil War, 51 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: and you ask them where were you when you found 52 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: out that Lincoln died or was murdered, they could probably 53 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: tell you that's kind of etched into their memory. But 54 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: even now, sixty years later, we've got generations that have 55 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: been born afterwards and people still know the story. And 56 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: I think that it's still haunting us as a nation. 57 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: I think that that's probably an understatement. 58 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 2: I think it's one of those stories that will never end. 59 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 2: And what you're going to talk about with regard to 60 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 2: the autopsy, this is the second part of the story 61 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 2: that people don't know. There are plenty of theories that 62 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,119 Speaker 2: have been bandied about. Most people tell you that they 63 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 2: don't believe Lee Harvey Alifold acted alone and shot Kennedy 64 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 2: from behind from the sixth floor of Texas school Book 65 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 2: Depository building, while others will say many other things and 66 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 2: what they've heard. Let's just start from the moment the 67 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 2: limousine convertible in Dealey Plaza. The President's been shot. If 68 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 2: we start right there, what took place with the president 69 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 2: of the United States of America. 70 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: Obviously, the most glaring piece of evidence is going to 71 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: be the Supprouver film. And I'm talking about just from 72 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: a death investigation perspective, nothing else. We can look at 73 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: that and think we've just witnessed it, you know, the 74 00:04:53,560 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: murder of sitting American president. And to this day there 75 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: are all these questions that exist. And look, people can 76 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: go down the road with a variety of different types 77 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: of scenarios that may or may not happen. But you know, 78 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: one of the reasons I wanted to do body backs was, 79 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: at least in my own little way, I could perhaps 80 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: introduce some science into things so that people from a 81 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: forensic perspective, so that people could understand, you know, what 82 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 1: they're seeing, it seems, and that sort of thing, and 83 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: try to interpret some of the data that comes in, 84 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: and there was so much. I mean, there truly was, Dave, 85 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: you know, in this particular case that was essentially kind 86 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: of bulldozed over for any number of reasons that have 87 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: been put out over the years as rationalees as to 88 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: why we didn't do this, and why we didn't do that, 89 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: and why we did this. And you look back at 90 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: it and you think that if you had just merely 91 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: taken the time to stick with standard procedure, you wouldn't 92 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: have all these questions that are left dangling out there, 93 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: these things that people scratch their heads over, people study 94 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: and write books over for years and years afterwards. If 95 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: you had just taken that moment Tom to hit pause 96 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: and to work the case, that's what it comes down to, 97 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: and that's what makes this such a monumental failure. 98 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 2: Do you okay? The standard procedure you're talking about is 99 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 2: about the autopsy itself, performing the autopsy within the jurisdiction, 100 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 2: which was not done. According to Texas state law. The 101 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 2: standard is that the autopsy should have been done in 102 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 2: Dallas County and again per state law, which states in 103 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 2: all cases of accident, homicide, suicide, and undetermined deaths. The 104 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 2: medical examiner is mandated by Texas law to determine the 105 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 2: cause and manner of death. Correct. Yeah, his jurisdiction was 106 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 2: that Joe as a death investigator who should have been 107 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 2: in charge of the investigation of the murder of a 108 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 2: man in Dallas, Texas. 109 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: Well the prosecutor for Dallas County. It lays right at 110 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: that individual's feet. And what's really striking about this is 111 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: that they had Dallas County had actually a real gem 112 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: of a person in place for forensic autopsies, a man 113 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: that was for his day in time, was in the 114 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: forefront of well, certainly in the sense of Texas kind 115 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: of codifying the standard for death investigation. And let me 116 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: back up just a second, because a lot of people 117 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: don't understand what goes on in Texas relative death investigations. 118 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: You know that. I don't know if we discussed this before, 119 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: but it's kind of an interesting little aside. Traditionally Texas 120 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: not traditionally, Texas does not have corners, all right, they 121 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: actually have the Justice of the Peace is the de 122 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: facto corner in the state of Texas. And prior to 123 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: doctor Earl Rose, who was the forensic pathologist and the 124 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: chief medical examiner, if you will, for Dallas, Texas at 125 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: that time, and he had just taken that office not 126 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: too long before all of this went down. As a 127 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: matter of fact, I think it was earlier in nineteen 128 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: sixty three. He just kind of appears doctor Earl Rose, 129 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: board certified forensic pathologist. So you're not talking about just 130 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: some pathologist that just walks in off the street that 131 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: happens to do hospital pathology. You're talking about a highly 132 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: trained individual that was a forensic pathologist that had done 133 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: forensic autopsies, that understood wound ballistics and could contextualize everything. 134 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: And just imagine, if you will, You're faced with seemingly 135 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: probably the most daunting murder investigation any reisdiction could possibly 136 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: be faced with, and you have at your literally at 137 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: your fingertips, access to this fantastic forensic mind that is 138 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: in the hallway day of Parkland. Just let that sink 139 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: in to. 140 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 2: Be clear, as you said, Joe Earl Rose was the 141 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 2: medical examiner for Dallas County, Texas at the time. However, 142 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 2: at the trauma room door, Rose was met by the 143 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 2: Secret Service and the President's personal physician, who informed Rose 144 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 2: that there was no time for an autopsy, and that 145 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 2: the body would be transported to the airport. Rose objected 146 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 2: tried to stand in the way, but was reportedly pushed 147 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 2: aside by the President's aids, and the body was transported 148 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 2: back to Washington. 149 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: That's what happened. I don't And here's the interesting thing. 150 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: Parkland Hospital where the pros since motorcade went to. It's 151 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: fine hospital and had a reputation as being a fine 152 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: hospital still does. It's teaching hospital. So you had residents there, 153 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: you know, you had people that were working as neurosurgical residence. 154 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: A lot has been made of that because you had 155 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: all these neurosurgeon surgeons that were physically there in the 156 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: trauma room when the president rolled in. Because they called 157 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: a code. Everybody knew the president was in town. And 158 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: this in a hospital, it's like a little town. It 159 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: spread like wildfire. So everybody that was anybody sprinted toward 160 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: the trauma room when the call went up, and he 161 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: was there within just a few minutes. The first shots, 162 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, rang out at right at about 163 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: twelve thirty. It was all said and done in the 164 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: motorcade by twelve thirty. That third shot had wrung out, 165 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: they had to Parkland, and they're only a direct route 166 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: for it anyway, that's in the general direction. But in 167 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: secret service types, they know where all the hospitals are. 168 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, before the Secret Service even 169 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: brings a president in the town, they know where all 170 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: the trauma centers are. They lay in a supply of 171 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: the president's blood. Did you know that at all of 172 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: these hospitals where there's a trauma center, they knew where 173 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: Parkland was, and they knew that they were on a 174 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: direct route for it. So when they go under the 175 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: viaduct over the trestle, you know they got he's got 176 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: his foot on the floor. They're heading toward the er, 177 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: and within twenty seven minutes, I think it's twenty seven 178 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: roughly President's dead. I mean they've called it at that point. 179 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 2: So let me ask you Joe was the president based 180 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 2: on the condition of his body at that moment when 181 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 2: he was shot. Did he die in the limo or 182 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 2: did he actually make it? Was he alive when he 183 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 2: got to Parkland? 184 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: I think that if he had any kind of. 185 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 2: Pulse. 186 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: I've used this term before on body bags or agonal respirations, 187 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: which means that your chest is still rising and falling. 188 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: That's going to be at an autonomic level auto meaning 189 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 1: self where you're on cruise control. Even Abe Lincoln when 190 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: he was shot, Dave, you know, he shot and we 191 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: did a great episode of I think it's great personally, 192 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: but with Lincoln. You know, Lincoln lasted through the night 193 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: and he was shot in an area that transacted you know, 194 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: his brain. It went from I think right right to left. 195 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: The round wound up behind his left eye. I might 196 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: be way off the mark there. Either way, it criss 197 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: crossed across his brain. 198 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 2: So it's possible that the JFK was alive when it techniques. 199 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't speak to the quality of life, but 200 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: he would have had at least maybe agonal respirations. But 201 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: he wasn't long for this world because he sustained at 202 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: minimum to gunshot wounds, and both of them in their 203 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: own right or horribly traumatic. The headshot alone is enough 204 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 1: to have taken him out just in and of itself, 205 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: because so much was lost, so much disruption took place. 206 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: That's an it's an unsurvivable wound, so you know, but 207 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: they knew that when he rolled in, the fact that 208 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: they were doing heroic efforts. We've heard a lot about 209 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: the the tracheotomy that was performed, and I can address 210 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: that too, because that, you know, that plays into this 211 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: whole scenario about you know what, what are you seeing 212 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 1: there as a clinician when you're assessing when they would 213 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 1: have made those efforts. They were merely heroic efforts because 214 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: they knew that it was a president and so they're 215 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: trying to establish an airway that implies that they thought 216 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: that there might be a glimmer of hope. I mean, who, 217 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: you know, what physician would want to be the person 218 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: to have to answer to the question of this is 219 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: our president, why didn't you try? And so that they're 220 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: faced with that, and I'm sure and they had to 221 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: have an awareness of that. I don't know about you, Dave. 222 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: I don't know that I could. I could necessarily stand 223 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 1: there and separate my clinical brain from just a person, 224 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: a citizen. And you're standing there over the body of 225 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: the president, guy that you've seen in the news, a 226 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: guy that you've read about in the papers, Camelot. His 227 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: wife is out in the hallway. Yeah, and you know, 228 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: how do you you know, how is it that you 229 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: do that well in medicine? 230 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 2: I would not walk out of that room without being 231 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 2: able to say I did everything I knew and then 232 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 2: made some other stuff up. 233 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: Hope. Yeah, you're going to leave it all on the field, 234 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: you know, to use a sports metaphor, I mean, you 235 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: don't want to leave anything to question. 236 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 2: Which is why this bothers me so much that we 237 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 2: have so many questions that we ought not have sixty 238 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 2: years after the fact. There shouldn't be one question about 239 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 2: what happened to John Fitzgerald Kennedy, President of the United 240 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 2: States of America, leader of the free world, on November 241 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: twenty second, nineteen sixty three. There should not be one 242 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 2: thing we don't know. 243 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: Right you are, Dave, And I'll tell you who did 244 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: know something. It was doctor Earl Rose. He was that 245 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: one person. He was that He was that one individual, 246 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: you know, kind of crying in the dark there shouting 247 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: to whoever would listen, you need to stop. He was 248 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: their first warning along the way to all those in attendance. 249 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: If they had just listened to that man, instead of 250 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: pushing him against the wall, physically threatening him and then 251 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: out those doors with the President's body to get him 252 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: away from there and get him away from an actual 253 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: suitable autopsy. He was that first warning along the way, 254 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: and they failed to listen to him. Earl Rose knew 255 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: that the president had been shot. He responded after the 256 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: code had been called in order. In other words, pronouncement 257 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: had taken place, priests had come down to give last rites. 258 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: He knew. Do you know why he knew, Dave? And 259 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: this is the one thing that really stands out in 260 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: my mind. Earl Rose was officed in the trauma center 261 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: at Parkland. A lot of people don't know that he 262 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: was literally across the hall and he knew what he 263 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: was looking at. He knew that he was looking at 264 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: though it was the President of the United States, he 265 00:16:38,280 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: knew that he was looking at a murder investigation. In 266 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: the business of death investigation, it is profoundly important that medical, 267 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 1: legal death investigators and forensic pathologists remain that calm, quiet 268 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: voice in the center of the storm where you bring 269 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: scientific reasoning to an otherwise chaotic environment. And I can't 270 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: begin to express to you, Dave. I know that I've 271 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: mentioned his name several times of what a significant moment 272 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: in time it was where you had this man standing 273 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 1: there telling them that is doctor Rose telling the secret 274 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,959 Speaker 1: Service and the aids of the President, telling them specifically 275 00:17:54,760 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: that by law, by law, this is a murdering investigation. 276 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 1: It has taken place in Dallas County, we have jurisdiction 277 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: over the body. And Earl Rose years later had said 278 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: that he did not want to create any more of 279 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: a stir in this environment, that you know, he saw 280 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: that this thing was escalating beyond his control. And look, 281 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 1: I can't imagine what it would be like to try 282 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: to go toe to toe with the US Secret Service 283 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: and the authorities that have rolled into town, associated with 284 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: the highest echelons of the federal government. Are you going 285 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: to be that person? I don't know that I could 286 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 1: have been. But he warned them. He warned him because 287 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:38,719 Speaker 1: he knew the law. He knew the law in his 288 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: little area of expertise, which is medical legal death investing. 289 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 2: Right, so he warns them that what they're about to 290 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 2: do is wrong. They're going to do it anyway. But 291 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 2: for those of us who don't understand Joe, it seemed 292 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 2: to me when I was growing up that to take 293 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 2: the president's body because he is the president of the 294 00:18:56,280 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 2: United States of America, what has happened is a national tragedy. 295 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 2: That his autopsy ought not be left to a local jurisdiction. 296 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 2: It ought to go back to Washington, d C. And 297 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 2: be dealt with either I'm thinking Walter Read or Bethesda something. 298 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 2: Probably Bethesda because he was a navy man. But you know, 299 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 2: that's what I was thinking along those lines as the 300 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 2: president and all that. But in reality, there's a reason 301 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 2: that's not the case. There's a time period here there, 302 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 2: you do, You doesn't the time of when you're when 303 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 2: you're examining the body of the of this victim. Now 304 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 2: we're dealing with a murder victim, and it is a 305 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 2: murder that has taken place. It's got to be solved. 306 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 2: A trial would take place in Dallas. I mean, this 307 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 2: is still regardless of who's killed, it is still a 308 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 2: local crime, correct. 309 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah. Do you know there was not a statute 310 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:50,360 Speaker 1: on federal books until sixty five that made the assassination 311 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: of a president of federal offense, So there was not 312 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: actually a law in the books relative to this, And 313 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: that's isn't that odd? Because you know, prior to Kennedy, 314 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 1: we'd had Lincoln. We talked about President Lincoln. We had 315 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: Garfield who was shot you know in the train station, 316 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 1: and then we had President McKinley, so we had a history, 317 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: you know, we had a history. And every all, all 318 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 1: four of these men died as a result of gunshot wounds, 319 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: and the people that were involved in their examinations had 320 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: always consistently been the military up all the way through McKinley. 321 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: McKinley's autopsy was very thorough. I mean it was for 322 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: their time. It was a well done autopsy. I'm thinking 323 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: back right now. Lincoln's was only a partial. They essentially 324 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: examined his head. James Garfield, who probably not to make light, 325 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 1: but President Garfield died more as a result of his 326 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: treatment that he received. 327 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 2: Treatment, because he lived for a while. He lived for 328 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 2: a while and wrote letters while after he was shot. 329 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 2: He wrote letters how he was doing. 330 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: Just utter agony. And X rays played played a role 331 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 1: in his case, just like they play a role in 332 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: President Kennedy's death because I think it was Alexander Graham 333 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: Bell introduced the first use of an X ray machine 334 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: relative to Garfield to try to locate this projectile that was, 335 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: you know, still lodged in his body. And what's interesting 336 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: is they when President Garfield was autopsy, they actually took 337 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: out that segment of his spine, and they still have 338 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: that segment of his spine, which I've always found quite 339 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: fascinating as well. So, yeah, that we it's not like 340 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: it's not like we don't have a history. 341 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 2: There was president Yeah, yeah, there. 342 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: Was and still this this this had not been cured. 343 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: And let me just interject something here. Personally, I don't 344 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: have a lot of patience with people Dave that that 345 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 1: say things like, well, it was a different time back then, 346 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 1: and their ways were not necessarily the ways of that 347 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 1: we understand today. Well, let me break this down to you. 348 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 1: Doctor Earl Rose actually wound up doing the autopsy on 349 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: Lee Harvey Oswald, who was the alleged assassin. Remember he 350 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,959 Speaker 1: never went to trial. And in addition to that, doctor 351 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: Rose also did the autopsy on Officer Tibbets, who had 352 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: allegedly died at the hand of Lee Harvey Oswald. And 353 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: on top of that, he did the autopsy on Ruby, 354 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 1: who died in custody there in Dallas as well. So 355 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: he's connected with all those But but yet, when you 356 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: have the catalyst that kicked this whole thing off with 357 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: the death of the president, he's on the outside looking 358 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: in and that's that's what's that is what the real 359 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: tragedy is here. The Secret Service are not you know, granted, 360 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: they've got a long history, and their main purpose when 361 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: they were established I think in the eighteen seventies or 362 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: whatever it was was not personal security for the president 363 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: and the higher ups in government. It was to fight counterfeiting. 364 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: And in that area they're fantastic investigators, but back then 365 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: they're not homicide investigators. That's not what they do. It's 366 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: a specific skill set. 367 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 2: But Joe, let me just the people that actually did 368 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 2: the autopsy. Once they broke all the laws in Dallas, Texas, 369 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 2: once they ruined the investigation and they loaded the body 370 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 2: on the airplane to take it out of love Field 371 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 2: where he had landed. We've got the picture of Johnson 372 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 2: being sworn in by a judge he appointed, and we've 373 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 2: got Jackie standing there in her bloody outfit basically passing 374 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 2: the torch giving her approval. So there wouldn't be any 375 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 2: question they did that on the plane in Dallas before 376 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 2: they left and got in the air they fly the 377 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 2: body back to Washington, d C. I'm going to assume 378 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 2: that whoever is waiting on this in Washington, DC is 379 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 2: going to be a better, better trained, better doc, better 380 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 2: path thought, better everything than what was existing in Dallas, 381 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,120 Speaker 2: Texas at the time. That's my assumption, that's why they're 382 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 2: doing it. Is that the case. 383 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 1: You know what they say about assumptions, and that that's 384 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 1: what we're faced with Dave, and I think that a 385 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: lot of the general public thinks, oh my gosh, yeah, 386 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: let's get let's get him back to DC. Well, first off, 387 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 1: here's the problem. According to what was what has been 388 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,719 Speaker 1: put forth over all the years. And I find this 389 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: very interesting. You're talking about the homicide of a president, 390 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: the murder of a president, and he was not just 391 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: Jackie Kennedy's husband, he was our president. So it has 392 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: been stated that it was the wishes of the widow 393 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: for President Kennedy's body to go to Bethesda because it 394 00:24:54,400 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: was a naval hospital. Okay, And so what difference does 395 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: that make Because at Bethesda you don't have any forensic pathologists, 396 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 1: but within a stone's throw of Bethesda you have Walter Reid. Well, 397 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: guess what's housed at Walter Reed the Armed Forces Institute 398 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: of Pathology. Guess what's contained within there? The Armed Forces 399 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: version their division of Forensic Pathology. They they actually had 400 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: established the af I P I think in uh just 401 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: in the in the years just after World War Two. 402 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: And as a matter of fact, doctor Ed Johnson, who 403 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: was a colonel in the Army, he was head DAVE 404 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: of forensic Pathology. He was right down the road from 405 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: his place. But yet they chose to have to completely 406 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: unqualified naval physicians at Bethesda do the autopsy. They had 407 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: never either one of them when we get their name straight, 408 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: it was Humes in Boswell. They were both naval physicians. 409 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: They were pathologists working at Bethesda doing what naval pathologists 410 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: at a hospital. Do you know what that is? Looking 411 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: at tumors and making diagnoses on surgical specimens that are 412 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: coming in and oh yet managing the lab. Notice nothing 413 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: in that description I just gave you qualifies them to 414 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: do forensic pathology. And as it turns out, neither one 415 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: of them had ever even done a forensic autopsy period. 416 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: And so you're going to trust, arguably what turns out 417 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: to be the most complicated, complex homicide investigation that is 418 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: now being performed on a body that has been removed 419 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: from the jurisdiction where it occurred in a location that is, 420 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: I don't know, just over one thousand miles away. You 421 00:26:58,160 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: had to take the body there to have it done 422 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: two unqualified people. And just to give you like a 423 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: little aside about this, many times what happens with a 424 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: medical examiner's office is that when you're working there and 425 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 1: you have a trauma case that rolls into like a 426 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,439 Speaker 1: major emergency room, it doesn't have to be a major room, 427 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: it can be any emergency room the corner or the 428 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: medical examiner. First off, you'll go to the hospital to 429 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 1: examine the body and interview the physicians that did the treatment. 430 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: It wasn't until the next morning that these two people 431 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: that did the autopsy on the president's body at Bethesda 432 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: actually spoke with the doctors at Parkland who had rendered 433 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: treatment to the president. At that moment time, they didn't 434 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 1: have a frame of reference about the now infamous tracheostomy site. 435 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: And people say, well, why would why would they create 436 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: a tracheostomy You've got a gunshot wound. Well, here's why 437 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: you do it that way. If it's in a position 438 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: and this happens with some great frequency, and I can 439 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 1: tell you why this happens many times, so that they 440 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: don't have to traumatize the body further. All right, So 441 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: you've got a hole, if you will, a bullet hole 442 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: that's just off center. If people will find their larynings 443 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,479 Speaker 1: and kind of find where the Adams apple would be 444 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 1: and just go slightly below that area right there, and 445 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:34,719 Speaker 1: it's just off center where this defect was, they created 446 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: a tracheostm site where they could get an airway established. Now, 447 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: this happens a lot. People don't realize this. You have 448 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: gunshot wounds to the chest. For instance, people will uh 449 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: the physicians in the trauma room will actually use a 450 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: gunshot wound that's existing in the chest to create they'll 451 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: open it up further to put a chest tube me 452 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: in to get the blood out of the chest. They'll 453 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: do this a lot. It's not that this is an 454 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: uncommon occurrence, but with Humes and Boswel, they had no 455 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: history whatsoever of assessing trauma, ballistic trauma, particularly at that 456 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: point in time. So when they're looking at this defect 457 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: in the mid line of the neck that they know 458 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: is in fact, they believe at least is a gunshot wound, 459 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: they can't factor that into their thinking when they're doing 460 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: their initial exam and of course that's the most important thing, 461 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: and because you lose all frame of reference and the 462 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: other thing that was really odd about this case from 463 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:45,479 Speaker 1: just a practitioner standpoint, when Boswel and Hume saw the 464 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: body of the president, when they initially opened up this 465 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: casket that had like a broken handle on it and 466 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: all this stuff, body was not in a body bag body. 467 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: They described the body as being swaddled, which means it 468 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: was wrapped in sheets, and the president had a big 469 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: bandage over his head, which is not uncommon. I mean, 470 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: they'll they'll do that with these gaping gunshot wounds. They'll 471 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: wrap gauze around the head, that sort of thing to 472 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: keep anything from kind of falling falling out. Ideally, you 473 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: would want the body they called them, they didn't call 474 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: them body bags back then, they called them disaster pouches. 475 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: You would want to be able to do that. But 476 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: they didn't apparently choose to do that. They merely put 477 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: him in the casket. They when the president's body arrived 478 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: at Bethesda, when they unswaddled the body, he was nude. 479 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: There was no clothing with the body. And one of 480 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: the big things that came up over the years, is 481 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: that I beg everyone that's listening to this, when you 482 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: take a look at the president's suit he's wearing the president, 483 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: you know, you get pictures of him when he's in 484 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: you know, Martha's vineyard with the family, and he's wearing 485 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: an open collar. This man never went anywhere without a 486 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: tie on, particularly in a formal setting. He's riding in 487 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: a motorcade. This is a campaign. The fact that he 488 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: had a tie on and he sustained this gunshot wound 489 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: to the back of the neck that impacted literally the 490 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: trajectory of this round because that's what's referred to as 491 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: a shored s h u r ed wound. There's a 492 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: lot of tension placed over this area, so they could 493 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,719 Speaker 1: not appreciate what defects there were in the clothing at 494 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: that moment time. And it's my understanding that they never 495 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: actually saw the clothing until I might have my day trong. 496 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: It seems like nineteen sixty six is the first time 497 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: that they ever saw the president's clothing. And it's international archives, So. 498 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 2: This is after the Warrant Commission has come out with 499 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 2: its document on what they say happened, But they still 500 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 2: have not even touched the clothing, match it up with 501 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 2: the wounds they saw. Now you mentioned that that tracheotomy, 502 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 2: that the bullet wound. If you had the shirt and 503 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 2: the you know where it's button with the tie and 504 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 2: all that, what would you be able to tell from that? 505 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: It would be significant because you can track, you can listen. 506 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: Clothing moves independent. I don't care how tight your clothing is. 507 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: The clothing moves independent of the exterior of your body, 508 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: all right. That goes without saying. It doesn't matter how 509 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: tight your vestments are that you have on. And one 510 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: of the things that is brought up by Humes and 511 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: Boswel is that when the president is sitting in the car, 512 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: and we've seen him been there's images of him even 513 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: in the early part of the Suppruder film, his hand 514 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: is raised and he's waving. That's what politicians do in 515 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: the back of cars. They're trying to make a connection 516 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: with the crowd. Well, think about raising your arm and 517 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: you're wearing a shirt or maybe you're wearing a jacket 518 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: right now as you're listening to this, your your clothing 519 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: will actly adjust according to the movement of your arm. 520 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: So you're guys that wear sports coats. I know, I 521 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: have to wear them on air a lot. They bunch 522 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: up in the back. You'll create like a crease back there. 523 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: And so if you don't have a full appreciation of 524 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: the position of the individual in the vehicle and to 525 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: try to understand where they were relative to all the 526 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: other individuals in the car, and also the relationship of 527 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: the antiir side of the body, the neck where you 528 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: have this collared shirt, you lose all perspective. And remember this, 529 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: this bullet now that we're talking about is also known 530 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: as the magic bullet. And this is going to go 531 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: on to create I don't know, I think it's seven 532 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: other wounds or something like this in the governor's uh, 533 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: the governor's body. 534 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 2: It goes into JFK's upper back correct, Yeah, comes out 535 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 2: his throat, makes a right hand turn into his right arm, 536 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 2: It goes into. 537 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: It goes into connolly and and goes through his rib 538 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: and he's seated in a jump seat. That is actually 539 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: the pictures are are deceptive that you see it. 540 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 2: They are those jumpsies are not sitting directly in front 541 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 2: of one another, and they're not Watch his hand, watch 542 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 2: his hand on the hat. That gives you an idea 543 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:14,439 Speaker 2: of what's going on and when. 544 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, the trajectory, when that bullet exits the President's throat, 545 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 1: it does strike Cononley, and so it's going to take out, 546 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: you know, I think one of his ribs. It's gonna 547 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: go down and shatter, you know, his wrist, and eventually 548 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 1: it's going to come to rest in his left inner thigh. 549 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: So you've got this scene creating like seven different defects 550 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: and making crazy turns and all that sort of stuff 551 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: that many people have opined about over the years. But 552 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: just the clothing alone, and not having access to that 553 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: clothing to examine it contextually relative to the injuries that 554 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: you're seeing on the body, It's quite an amazing thing. 555 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: And you know, back in Dallas, you've still got an 556 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: active crime scene back there. And David, I got to 557 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 1: tell you one thing here that one image has always 558 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: has always struck me going back to Parkland thinking about this, 559 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: and I listen, don't believe anything I'm saying. Go look 560 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:15,760 Speaker 1: it up yourself, is what I'm saying to my audience 561 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: right now. There's an image of a what appears to 562 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: be a Secret Service agent in the ambulance bay adjacent 563 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: to the presidential limo. They have taken the trunk is 564 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: open on the car. They have taken this the bubbletop out. 565 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: Apparently it would fit back there. They've got the bubbletop 566 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,720 Speaker 1: now in place on top of the car. They're standing 567 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,959 Speaker 1: there day with a stainless steel bucket and they're washing 568 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:48,879 Speaker 1: out the interior of that car at Parkland. And if 569 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: you don't believe me, everybody go look at it. It's 570 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: out there. There's an image of this taking place. And 571 00:35:54,000 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: so that car, that car is a crime scene. That 572 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: car is a crime scene. As a matter of fact, 573 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 1: the whole damn Deeley Plaza was a crime scene, but 574 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: it was not locked down. There were still two bone 575 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: fragments that were found later on that had to be 576 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: brought to Bethesda to be examined that were not discovered 577 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: at that period of time. And those are key because 578 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: what you're talking about is when you begin to think 579 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: about WOMND ballistics, particularly as they apply to the head 580 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: to piece together this fragmented skull, and trust me, it 581 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,280 Speaker 1: was fragmented. You're talking about a six point five millimeter 582 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: military round that delivers an incredible punch here. If you're 583 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: just talking about the krcano round alone or any kind 584 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: of high end, high velocity round, the skull is going 585 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 1: to fragment and it's in multiple pieces. Even Humes and 586 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: Bibles will talk about when they they didn't even have 587 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: to use the saw on the President's skull to open 588 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: it up, that when they reflected the scalp, the skull 589 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: was particulate, came a part in their hands. So when 590 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: you're trying to assess the skull, one of the things 591 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: that you look for is internal and external beveling, and 592 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 1: that gives you an indication of where a bullet entered 593 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: entered the skull. It's just like throwing a rock through 594 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 1: a piece of glass. One side's going to be smooth 595 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,240 Speaker 1: and the other side is not going to be smooth, 596 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: And that's one of the things we look for. But unfortunately, 597 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,719 Speaker 1: I think a lot of evidence was left behind. And 598 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 1: now unfortunately we're so far down the tracks, Dave, that 599 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: I don't know that we'll ever be able to answer 600 00:37:38,920 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: some of these questions. Assessment without an assessment, in any 601 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: kind of homicide case, when you cannot gather the facts 602 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: appropriately from the beginning, you can lose so much. And 603 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: the fact that you take arguably one of the most 604 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 1: complex homicide cases that has been on our radar now 605 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,359 Speaker 1: for sixty years, in the past sixty years, and you 606 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: throw it into the sea of chaos, this political world 607 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,880 Speaker 1: that's all turned up. It's a recipe for a disaster. 608 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,359 Speaker 1: And when the president's body arrived in Bethesda that night 609 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,760 Speaker 1: on Air Force one, with a newly sworn in president 610 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 1: and a grieving widow, it seems as though that whoever 611 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:05,359 Speaker 1: was in charge didn't know what they were doing. I 612 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: think that that's as kind as I can be with 613 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: that statement, because it was at that moment time you 614 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 1: needed to have someone that was fully in charge of 615 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,359 Speaker 1: their faculties trying to understand how to direct people, what 616 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 1: people should do. And one of the measures of that, 617 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 1: when you think about forensics is you have to know 618 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: your limitations, and if you don't know what to do, 619 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 1: you defer to those individuals that do have specific knowledge 620 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: about forensic science, and you defer to them and let 621 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: them handle it. 622 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, the President of the United States of America, they're 623 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 2: trying to rush an autopsy out of state and get 624 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 2: it done as quickly as they can, trying to find 625 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 2: a bullet. That's what it amounds to. 626 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that something? 627 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 2: How do you know? How can you tell where the 628 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,319 Speaker 2: bullet entered when it's already in that I mean, they 629 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 2: don't look at it the right way, You don't where 630 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 2: do you start with that? If it was done the 631 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:07,759 Speaker 2: right way, where would you start? Joe? 632 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,279 Speaker 1: Well, the most important thing in a case like this, 633 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:16,280 Speaker 1: and just not just not just from trying to track things, 634 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: but also a documentary perspective, are X rays. And they 635 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: did do X rays, and there's been a lot of 636 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 1: questions about the quality of the X rays that they had. 637 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: And again, the technology then is not necessarily what it 638 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 1: is today. That's not an excuse. It's just that things 639 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 1: have been fine tuned since then. We have an expectation 640 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 1: now with the way we do X rays, they're much 641 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: more fine tuned. If you've got this radio opaque bodies 642 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: that are along the wound track, you can really pick 643 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: up a lot of the little nuanced areas. Back then, 644 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 1: you necessarily you could not necessarily pick them up the 645 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: way you can now. You could see it, but it 646 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,839 Speaker 1: wasn't in as fine detail. So X rays are where 647 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,240 Speaker 1: you start before you ever do anything. And I question 648 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 1: even how those X rays were performed, you know, on 649 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 1: the President's body. You know, I talked a little while 650 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,239 Speaker 1: ago about the body being swaddled in that sort of thing. 651 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: I really wonder if those X rays were done prior 652 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: to his head being unwound with the bandages they had 653 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: on there. And let me back up just for a 654 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: second here, when you begin to think about what was 655 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: going on at this historic moment in time, when you've 656 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:37,320 Speaker 1: got the body of the commander in chief laying there 657 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:44,239 Speaker 1: in this autopsy suite in Bethesda. They've got a this 658 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 1: is a teaching area. They've actually got grand stands in here, 659 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:54,360 Speaker 1: so there are seats for people to observe. There have 660 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 1: been some estimates that they're at any one time there 661 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,000 Speaker 1: could have been up to thirty two people in this room. 662 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:03,319 Speaker 1: So you're you, as a physician and anexperienced physician in 663 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 1: the area of forensic pathology, you're trying to perform a 664 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 1: task that you've never performed before in front of a 665 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: live audience on the body of the leader of the 666 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,880 Speaker 1: free world. Just let that sink in just for a second. 667 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:21,279 Speaker 1: You know, I've been around a lot of friends of 668 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: pathologists in in my lifetime. I've been very fortunate and 669 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: blessed to have said it at the feet of some 670 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:32,760 Speaker 1: pretty learned, learned folks. And one thing you always knew 671 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:37,879 Speaker 1: was that there was a master and commander in that room, 672 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: that they were in charge, and by God, no one 673 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:43,880 Speaker 1: else was to be in their period, end of story. 674 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 1: And that was not the case in that environment. And 675 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,320 Speaker 1: Humes and Bosle both have stated that there was nobody 676 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:57,080 Speaker 1: else giving them direction in that room. Maybe that's maybe 677 00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,880 Speaker 1: that's so, But Dave, I know that you've had an experience, 678 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure in your life where you don't have to 679 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,759 Speaker 1: have anything said to you. Merely a look, and you're 680 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:10,359 Speaker 1: talking about a military organization here, Merely a look can 681 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,799 Speaker 1: convey volumes to you within this environment. And so they're 682 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:20,920 Speaker 1: having to contend with this highly highly technical undertaking and 683 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:27,720 Speaker 1: they're doing it under a microscope here, and it's they 684 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 1: even they realized, I think they be in Basle and 685 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,839 Speaker 1: Humes realized that they were out of their depths. And 686 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:42,400 Speaker 1: here's why I know this. They reached out knowing that 687 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:48,239 Speaker 1: there was an autopsy that would be performed to AFIP 688 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:52,800 Speaker 1: Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, and they sent over doctor 689 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 1: Pierre Fink. Now, people might not be familiar with doctor Fink, 690 00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,359 Speaker 1: but doctor Fink was a forensic. 691 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,320 Speaker 2: Pathologist, ballistic expert. 692 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:06,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was actually present in the room and his 693 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,440 Speaker 1: area of expertise is actually wound ballistics. So you've heard 694 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: about all of the studies that have been hinted at 695 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,040 Speaker 1: over the years where the army, the military would conduct 696 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:23,840 Speaker 1: ballistic test on cadavers, that sort of thing. He's the 697 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:29,359 Speaker 1: guy that would would look and assess the bodies that 698 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: had been shot, whether they you know, primarily animals, to 699 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:37,359 Speaker 1: try to determine the effectiveness of weaponry at that point 700 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 1: in time. And so he he did come to Bethesda 701 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,440 Speaker 1: that night. Here's the interesting little aside. Now, this guy 702 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 1: who is I guess he is the gold standard when 703 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:56,400 Speaker 1: it comes to ballistic assessment. Prior to him arriving, Humes 704 00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 1: in Boswell had already removed the President's brain. It had 705 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,279 Speaker 1: already been taken out of the cranial vault at that 706 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,799 Speaker 1: moment time. And you know, according to their reports, they 707 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:12,279 Speaker 1: took the brain and placed it in formulae to fix it. 708 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 1: Because you don't with brains. Brains are they're an interest. 709 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:21,800 Speaker 1: They have an interesting consistency there. It's not as soft 710 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 1: as like a jello. Okay, it's a bit firmer than that. 711 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,719 Speaker 1: But in order to dissect a brain, it needs to 712 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:32,600 Speaker 1: be firm. So what we normally do at autopsy many 713 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,239 Speaker 1: times is you will take the brain and we have 714 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,440 Speaker 1: a way of anchoring it with strings through there's a 715 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,239 Speaker 1: little nerve bundle at the base of the brain where 716 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 1: the optic nerves come out and all this sort of thing, 717 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 1: and we can suspend the brain in a bucket of formuline, 718 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 1: which is a type of formaldehyde, and it's being anchored 719 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:52,560 Speaker 1: in there with strings, So it's kind of floating in 720 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,640 Speaker 1: this big bucket and you let it set. Some people 721 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:57,400 Speaker 1: will let it set up to two weeks. And so 722 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 1: when you take finally take the brain out of this bucket, 723 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 1: it has a very firm, hard consistency. And so the 724 00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,360 Speaker 1: dissection has done what it's referred to as bread loafing. 725 00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: So you go from the frontal lobe lobes bilaterally of 726 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,479 Speaker 1: the brain and you slice like you're slicing a loaf 727 00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,359 Speaker 1: of bread, and you can actually flip through it like 728 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,480 Speaker 1: book leaflets almost or slices of bread, and you can 729 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,680 Speaker 1: appreciate each bit of trauma along the way. Well, that 730 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,120 Speaker 1: was the intent with this, but the brain had already 731 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:32,759 Speaker 1: been removed from the head prior to Fink arriving. What's 732 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:40,000 Speaker 1: so tragic about that is that doctor Fink, with his expertise, 733 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,919 Speaker 1: at least at minimum, he could have been standing there 734 00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:49,200 Speaker 1: to see in context what the skull looked like, what 735 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,040 Speaker 1: the brain looked like within the skull, and to have 736 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,880 Speaker 1: been able to assess it before it was ever removed. 737 00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,319 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, if it were my autopsy, 738 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,440 Speaker 1: I would have automatically have deferred to doctor Fink and 739 00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:07,319 Speaker 1: have said, man, you got your scrubs on, you got 740 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,399 Speaker 1: your gloves on, come on over here, man, we're gonna 741 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,480 Speaker 1: let you handle this part of the dissection. Because you know, 742 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:17,920 Speaker 1: people look at the President's autopsy and here's another thing 743 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,800 Speaker 1: that they don't really understand. You know, his autopsy was 744 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:25,880 Speaker 1: not a complete autopsy. They examined the heart and the lungs, 745 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,080 Speaker 1: but nothing else was examined on the president's body. As 746 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,239 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, probably the most critical thing that 747 00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:39,840 Speaker 1: still to this day, it just absolutely just absolutely blows 748 00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:45,480 Speaker 1: my mind. The President's neck was never dissected. So at autopsy, 749 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:51,759 Speaker 1: what we do is when we actually reflect reflect the 750 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:55,319 Speaker 1: chest essentially is what we do. And we literally goes 751 00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,760 Speaker 1: over the face when we make the famous y incision 752 00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:02,400 Speaker 1: that autopsies are known for. Go in then and dissect 753 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,480 Speaker 1: out the trachea out of the neck, I mean everything. 754 00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,960 Speaker 1: We go all the way up to the tongue, remove 755 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 1: everything down, and that way we can see all of 756 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,440 Speaker 1: the organs of the neck. And there are multiple vessels 757 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,520 Speaker 1: that run through here. You have the trachia that runs 758 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:19,400 Speaker 1: through here, the larynx, the tongue, all of the stuff 759 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,520 Speaker 1: that runs through here. You want to be able to 760 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,840 Speaker 1: see behind those organs of the neck. You want to 761 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,520 Speaker 1: be able to see the structure of this final column 762 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,359 Speaker 1: at that point in time. I mean, I don't know. 763 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,640 Speaker 1: To me, that's kind of critical. That was never done. 764 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,600 Speaker 1: And Humes was even quoted as saying that, let me see, 765 00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:39,680 Speaker 1: let me get the phraseology right here. I don't want 766 00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,200 Speaker 1: to miss quote he said. He said it would have 767 00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,319 Speaker 1: been it would have been a crime. It's a term 768 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:49,000 Speaker 1: he used to have dissected the president's neck. And I'm thinking, 769 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,120 Speaker 1: have you lost your mind? It would have been a 770 00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,600 Speaker 1: crime to have dissected his neck. You're talking about an 771 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,560 Speaker 1: individual that had that. You guys are saying, it's got 772 00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,520 Speaker 1: a bullet hole that is running through through the neck 773 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:02,600 Speaker 1: and exits out of the front, and you think that 774 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:04,520 Speaker 1: it would be a crime to remove the organs of 775 00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:08,479 Speaker 1: the neck. Give me a break, Have you lost your mind? Yeah? 776 00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,680 Speaker 1: And as it turns out, I think that that goes 777 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,920 Speaker 1: to the bigger picture here, where you're looking at this 778 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,600 Speaker 1: and you're thinking, you know, how could you you know, 779 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:22,600 Speaker 1: how could you have just kind of taken this so 780 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:27,520 Speaker 1: lightly and not done your job? And again they defer 781 00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:31,600 Speaker 1: back to the family's wishes. This is something I keep 782 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 1: hearing all the way through, and it's kind of a 783 00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:39,600 Speaker 1: weasel thing to say when you're in authority over an 784 00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,360 Speaker 1: autopsy and certainly a homicide investigation of this magnitude, and 785 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,960 Speaker 1: you're saying, well, we're going to stick with the family's wishes. 786 00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:50,680 Speaker 1: But he was also everybody's president. And now, sixty years later, 787 00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:57,799 Speaker 1: because such a poor job was done, I don't know that, 788 00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,040 Speaker 1: you know, looking back rector respectively, I think a lot 789 00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:05,279 Speaker 1: of people would have wanted to have had a more 790 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,360 Speaker 1: thorough autopsy. You jump, you jump forward, Dave, We'll see 791 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:11,799 Speaker 1: that was in sixty three. You jump forward to sixty eight. 792 00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:18,919 Speaker 1: The President's the President's brother, Bobby was at the Ambassador. 793 00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:24,359 Speaker 1: He had just given this fantastic speech. He's going through 794 00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:29,840 Speaker 1: the kitchen at the Ambassador Hotel and he is assassinated 795 00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,800 Speaker 1: by Sir and Suren. And to give you an idea 796 00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:37,640 Speaker 1: how how much things had changed between sixty three and 797 00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:41,279 Speaker 1: sixty eight. As you well know, that took place in 798 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,800 Speaker 1: Los Angeles County. Well, who was the chief medical examiner 799 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,920 Speaker 1: slash corner. It was doctor Tom to get He's one 800 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,799 Speaker 1: of my heroes, as you know. And the family had 801 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,080 Speaker 1: told the folks with LA County at that point in time, 802 00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:59,760 Speaker 1: look up, yeah, we don't really need need the autopsy. 803 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:03,040 Speaker 1: We know what killed him. Doctor Nogucci said, you know what, 804 00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,359 Speaker 1: I think, We're going to go ahead and do an autopsy, 805 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,279 Speaker 1: and not only going to do it, but when I 806 00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,480 Speaker 1: do it, I'm going to have like five forensic pathologists 807 00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:14,840 Speaker 1: in the room with me. He actually to show you 808 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,160 Speaker 1: how thorough, doctor Nogucu. And just so the people understand, 809 00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:24,480 Speaker 1: Bobby Kennedy's autopsy has been named in it has been 810 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:28,240 Speaker 1: cited a couple of times as the most thorough forensic 811 00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:31,520 Speaker 1: autopsy that's ever been conducted. Just let that sink in 812 00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:37,080 Speaker 1: compared to what happened to the President's body. Forensic pathology, medical, 813 00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:40,000 Speaker 1: legal death of us such a small community, even though 814 00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:42,880 Speaker 1: we didn't know in sixty eight what we know now. 815 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:47,840 Speaker 1: People talk, all right, and Nogucci would have been fully 816 00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:52,080 Speaker 1: aware of the rumor mial. He would have heard about 817 00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:55,640 Speaker 1: what had gone on in Bethesda that night. He not 818 00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:59,120 Speaker 1: only reached out to a FIP and had them send people. 819 00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:06,560 Speaker 1: Doctor Fink was present for Bobby's autopsy in LA. That's 820 00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,640 Speaker 1: quite fascinating when you look at that, you know, in 821 00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:15,920 Speaker 1: its toatality, you think about how much the how much 822 00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:21,600 Speaker 1: things had changed just in that period of time. And 823 00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,680 Speaker 1: I never want to hear anybody say that, you know 824 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,840 Speaker 1: that they didn't know any better at the time of 825 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:33,279 Speaker 1: the President's assassination, that it was you know, well, one 826 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,879 Speaker 1: pathologist is just as good as any other pathologist. No, 827 00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:39,759 Speaker 1: that's not the case, because Earl Rose had been doing 828 00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:44,279 Speaker 1: homicide autopsies in Dallas. Uh, there were as a matter 829 00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:50,279 Speaker 1: of fact, let's just say for the sake of argument that, okay, 830 00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:54,160 Speaker 1: going back to d C with the President's remains was 831 00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:57,239 Speaker 1: a good idea which you could never convince me that 832 00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:04,799 Speaker 1: it is or was within an hour, within an hour's 833 00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,640 Speaker 1: plane flight. You could have had, arguably at that point 834 00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:12,560 Speaker 1: time in sixty three, you could have had the top 835 00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:17,600 Speaker 1: forendsic pathologist in the country standing in DC there to 836 00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:20,279 Speaker 1: do that autopsy. But yet you choose to go down 837 00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:26,239 Speaker 1: this path utilizing two naval physicians who I'm sure were 838 00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:32,560 Speaker 1: fine hospital pathologists, but not for this particular case. You 839 00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:37,480 Speaker 1: could have had Milton Helpern. You could have had doctor 840 00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:40,960 Speaker 1: Fisher who was in Baltimore. You could have had Werner 841 00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:45,200 Speaker 1: Spitz who was in Detroit. You could have had literally 842 00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:49,880 Speaker 1: a pantheon. There's a pantheon of these forensic pathologists that 843 00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:53,120 Speaker 1: are out there that were practicing at the time that 844 00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,960 Speaker 1: now we look back and if in forensic pathology, if 845 00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:59,960 Speaker 1: we had a Mount rushmore, these guys' faces would live 846 00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,680 Speaker 1: be on it. But yet you chose not to do that. 847 00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,920 Speaker 1: You chose to go down this path. And this is, 848 00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:09,080 Speaker 1: you know, my my little slice of the pie here 849 00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:11,680 Speaker 1: from a medical legal standpoint, it's just a small portion 850 00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:15,560 Speaker 1: of of the overall case, you know, relative to how 851 00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:19,520 Speaker 1: the president's murder was handled. I hate calling an assassination. Yeah, 852 00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,240 Speaker 1: it was an assassination, but that's such a political term. 853 00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:25,240 Speaker 1: At the end of the day, you're talking about a murder, 854 00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:28,400 Speaker 1: a murder that occurred in Dallas County, Texas. 855 00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,240 Speaker 2: A husband and father was taken away from his family 856 00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,320 Speaker 2: and they didn't get answers. They had to have been haunted. 857 00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:37,520 Speaker 2: But Joe, this is one of the things that goes 858 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,319 Speaker 2: that feeds the conspiracy. I want to ask you about 859 00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:43,680 Speaker 2: the wounds. Were any of the other wounds he's sustain 860 00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:47,000 Speaker 2: Were they life threatening other than the head shot? Was 861 00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:49,320 Speaker 2: the back the shot to the back? Was it deadly? 862 00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:53,640 Speaker 1: I don't, well, Gee, Dave, I don't know because the 863 00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:59,719 Speaker 1: neck wasn't dissected, you know. And again, I know, you 864 00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:04,000 Speaker 1: know I'm being flipped by saying that, But you know, 865 00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,799 Speaker 1: when you know, I would love to be able to 866 00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:10,360 Speaker 1: answer that question, and I think that many people would 867 00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:14,200 Speaker 1: would like an answer to that question definitively. But if 868 00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:18,160 Speaker 1: you're looking at this from the perspective of you know, 869 00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,200 Speaker 1: ge whiz, I wish we had time to go back 870 00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:23,560 Speaker 1: and get a do over. There are no mulligans in 871 00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,680 Speaker 1: forensic pathology. You don't get a do over. You get 872 00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:31,040 Speaker 1: to do it the first time. When people are quick 873 00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:34,239 Speaker 1: to say again, I have to emphasize this point. Well, 874 00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:38,640 Speaker 1: they didn't do things back then like they do them now. 875 00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:42,640 Speaker 1: It's unfair to judge that they were talking about we're 876 00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:46,200 Speaker 1: talking about the same generation that within five years would 877 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,560 Speaker 1: put a man on the moon. Are you kidding me? 878 00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:54,840 Speaker 1: You're not intellectually sophisticated enough, medically sophisticated enough at this 879 00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:57,160 Speaker 1: point time to understand the gravity of what you're in 880 00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:00,319 Speaker 1: the middle of that you're going to allow people to 881 00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:04,839 Speaker 1: make decisions driven by emotion at that moment, Tom is 882 00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,120 Speaker 1: beyond the pale. I don't think that there's any There 883 00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:09,799 Speaker 1: was no excuses then, there's still no excuses today for 884 00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:15,040 Speaker 1: because now you've left this generation and generations to come 885 00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:18,680 Speaker 1: without any solid answers. And Dave, I don't know that 886 00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:22,960 Speaker 1: we'll ever have any conclusive answers as time goes on. 887 00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:28,359 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks