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Speaker 1: Hi, Curse Up listeners, I know you miss me on

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Speaker 1: your feed. Don't worry. We're working on an all new

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Speaker 1: season of Curse Of coming out later this year. In

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Speaker 1: the meantime, if you can't stop thinking about the shocking

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Speaker 1: stories you heard about America's Next Top Model, you'll definitely

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Speaker 1: want to check out our new docuseries from E Dirty

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Speaker 1: Rotten Scandals. In the series, you'll hear from the America's

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Speaker 1: Next Top Model participants you heard from on Curse Of,

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Speaker 1: and a few you didn't like former A and TM

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Speaker 1: judge Janis Dickinson. Dirty Rotten Scandals unveils the dark underbelly

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Speaker 1: of the long running TV series through the untold stories

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Speaker 1: of former contestants, and shows what happens when a golden

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Speaker 1: opportunity for aspiring models unravels into a harrowing saga of exploitation,

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Speaker 1: shattered dreams, and resilience. You can find the two part

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Speaker 1: docuseries Dirty Rotten Scandals America's Next Top Model on E Network.

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Speaker 1: Check your local TV provider schedule. This week, we've learned.

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Speaker 2: All about makeup and the power that it has to

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Speaker 2: transform people. Today we are doing this shoot for Got Milk.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of moments from America's Next Top

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Speaker 1: Model that haven't aged well. We've been revisiting them all season,

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Speaker 1: but for a lot of people, there's one that towers

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Speaker 1: above the rest. Now there's a twist.

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Speaker 2: We are actually going to switch your ethnicities.

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Speaker 1: Even diehard antm apologist can't deny the cringiness of this

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Speaker 1: photo shoot.

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Speaker 2: Christina, you're going to be an East Indian. Tiffany, you're

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Speaker 2: gonna be Native American.

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Speaker 1: Of course, I'm talking about the race swapping photo shoot.

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Speaker 1: Believe it or not. A and TM actually did a

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Speaker 1: version of this photo shoot twice. The first time was

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Speaker 1: on cycle four. They assigned each of the contestants to

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Speaker 1: portray a race that was not their own. Brittany Brower,

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Speaker 1: a white girl from Tallahassee, was straight up put in blackface.

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Speaker 2: Brittany an African American woman, Kenya Korean, Michelle an Eskimo woman.

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Speaker 1: Yikes. Now you're most.

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Speaker 2: Gonna be an Icelandic Scandinavian, Tatiana a biracial woman, UV

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Speaker 2: Swedish milkmaid. Wow, Becca really dark tanned Italian Sicilian woman.

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Speaker 2: And Noel, we're making you into a traditionally African woman

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Speaker 2: with a head wrap and everything.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Everybody else got a country or ethnicity. Noel had to

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Speaker 1: represent a whole. Confident they didn't just change their skin color.

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Speaker 1: The models got a makeover, complete with costumes and wigs.

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Speaker 1: It was as stereotypical as you can imagine. They gave Tiffany,

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Speaker 1: a black woman, a long black wig with two braids

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Speaker 1: on the side because she was portraying a Native American woman. Christina,

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Speaker 1: a white model, got a straight wig with a dupata

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Speaker 1: or headscarf because she was supposed to be East Indian. Brittany,

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Speaker 1: the one who was in blackface, a huge afro wig

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Speaker 1: because she was portraying an African American woman. Here's Brittany

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Speaker 1: when she finally saw her completed look in the mirror.

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Speaker 1: A black girl with a Nosehall, come on, you're rejection.

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Speaker 1: People refer to this as the black face photoshoot. For

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Speaker 1: the two models who were supposed to be black, the

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Speaker 1: makeup artists actually painted their entire faces with the dark

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Speaker 1: brown makeup, but it didn't end there. This is something

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Speaker 1: for everyone to be offended by in this photo shoot. Kenya,

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Speaker 1: who's black, was supposed to be Korean for the shoot,

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Speaker 1: so she was given lighter skin Naima, who's multiracial, was

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Speaker 1: portraying an Icelandic woman, so they gave her makeup to

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Speaker 1: make her pale as if there are no multiracial people

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Speaker 1: in Iceland. This is shocking to us today, But if

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Speaker 1: you watched it play out live, I want you to

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Speaker 1: think back to how it made you feel in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and five, if you were truly offended, or if

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Speaker 1: your outrage is revision is history. Several of the models

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Speaker 1: who can on that season say at the time they

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Speaker 1: didn't see anything wrong with the race. Wopping. Here's Tiffany

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Speaker 1: and Kenya talking about it in an interview with Nightline.

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Speaker 1: I didn't think too much of it at the time.

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Speaker 4: It was fun.

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Speaker 5: Do you feel like the people watching it now they

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Speaker 5: have a much different reaction than the folks who were

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Speaker 5: watching it at the time.

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Speaker 1: Do you chalk some of it up to the popularity.

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Speaker 5: Of the show, the things that they were able to

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Speaker 5: get away with on television, to the fact that we

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Speaker 5: were just living in a different time.

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Speaker 1: Then yeah, I do. Yeah, just live in a different time.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they didn't think too much of it back then,

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Speaker 1: but these days they've had to think about it a lot.

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Speaker 1: I really wanted to talk to Britney Brower, the white

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Speaker 1: girl who was put in black face. Here's what she

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Speaker 1: remembers from that photo shoot.

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Speaker 5: They wanted to give us all different ethnicities and give

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Speaker 5: me blackface and make me an African American woman and

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Speaker 5: not clearly did not age very well. But I'll be

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Speaker 5: very very honest at the time of thought anything of it.

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Speaker 5: I hope that doesn't sound wrong.

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Speaker 1: It was just fun. You know.

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Speaker 6: You got to think the host of our show is

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Speaker 6: Tyra Banks, and mister and missus Jay are right there

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Speaker 6: as well. It never crossed my brain at all. If

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Speaker 6: Tyers want me to do something that it would ever

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Speaker 6: ever end up being, like, you know, anything offensive, then.

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Speaker 1: She must not know about Tarra Banks. To this day,

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Speaker 1: if you google Britney's name, that image pops up. Did

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Speaker 1: it work out for the long run?

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Speaker 5: I have felt more than uncomfortable with it, obviously. I

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Speaker 5: don't mean offending anybody like twenty years later of something

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Speaker 5: I did when I was twenty two years old and

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Speaker 5: I'm forty two years old now, you know.

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Speaker 1: But there was one contestant I talked to who said,

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Speaker 1: at the time the whole thing felt off to her,

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Speaker 1: and that was Uvi Gomez.

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Speaker 7: I knew it was wrong, Like I absolutely knew it

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Speaker 7: was wrong, and I was trying to talk the girls

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Speaker 7: into all of us saying we didn't want to do it.

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Speaker 1: But like Brittany, most of them thought Tyra KNWBST.

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Speaker 8: They didn't want to say not to do it, so

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Speaker 8: they're like, well, if Tyra wrote off on it, then

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Speaker 8: it's fine. I'm like, oh, you know, I knew the

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Speaker 8: fallout was going to happen, you know, and it Ensure died.

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Speaker 8: Twenty years later, still people are talking about it.

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Speaker 1: People are talking about it now, but when it aired,

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Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot of concern. In fact, Brittany told

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Speaker 1: me after she was eliminated, she did an interview tour

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Speaker 1: and the black face photoshoot never came up.

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Speaker 5: I had the interviews all day long with every kind

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Speaker 5: of radio show, talk show, television show. The day after

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Speaker 5: my elimination. I never got one question about it, not one,

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Speaker 5: not one. I mean that's just how it was then.

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Speaker 5: Nothing Nothing was ever said about it back then.

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Speaker 1: I'm not defending it.

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Speaker 5: I'm just telling you nobody ever said anything.

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Speaker 1: Blackface is a specific practice that has racist origins. It's

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Speaker 1: based on ugly stereotypes. It was created to mock and

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Speaker 1: degrade black people. I know, anything even reminiscent of blackface

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Speaker 1: feels offensive. And I'm not trying to defend this incredibly

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Speaker 1: insensitive photoshoot, but I don't think it was A and

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Speaker 1: TM's goal to mock and degrade black people. For me,

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Speaker 1: the worst part of this photo shoot wasn't the wigs

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Speaker 1: or even the makeup. It was when Jay Manuel said this, the.

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Speaker 2: Challenge here really is taking on the persona of that

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Speaker 2: other ethnicity while in the photograph and owning it.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't just about how they looked. Mister Jay wanted

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Speaker 1: them to act their racial parts, whatever that means. And

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Speaker 1: I think that desire for contestants to embody a racial

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Speaker 1: stereotype didn't just happen in the race wiping challenge. It

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Speaker 1: played out on every season of the show. Want to

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Speaker 1: Beyond Some, want to Beyond Some. Welcome to the Curse

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Speaker 1: of America's next Top Model. I'm Bridget Armshan. No matter

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Speaker 1: what A and TM intended, the race swapping photoshoot was

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Speaker 1: based on stereotypes and narrow ideas about race. They had

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Speaker 1: the nerve to do a version of this again years later,

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Speaker 1: but those were just two photoshoots. From season one all

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Speaker 1: the way to the end, America's Next Top Model always

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Speaker 1: prioritize racial and ethnic diversity. They depicted beauty across racial lines,

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Speaker 1: but the way contestants were cast and edited often played

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Speaker 1: into racial stereotypes. The early two thousands was a different

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Speaker 1: time when it came to race and representation. That's why

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Speaker 1: I can give A and TM's race swapping challenge some grace.

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Speaker 1: But even for the times, A and TM's use of

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Speaker 1: racial tropes stands out, and they continued until the show

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Speaker 1: ended in twenty eighteen, which is hard to reconcile with

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Speaker 1: the fact that A and TM was created by a

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Speaker 1: black woman and an Asian man, Tyra Banks and Ken Mock.

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Speaker 1: Plus the head casting director was a black woman and

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Speaker 1: the j's were queer men of color. So how did

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Speaker 1: A and TM's episodes end up looking so racist? Maybe

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Speaker 1: it's because racial stereotypes are low hanging fruit, or maybe

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Speaker 1: it's because they're a tried and true moneymaker. So on

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Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to talk about identity on A

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Speaker 1: and TM. We'll explore the stereotypes and tropes we saw

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Speaker 1: across seasons and talk about the models who say they

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Speaker 1: were harmed by their edit once they left the house.

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Speaker 1: If there's anything about A and TM Tyra Banks is

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Speaker 1: most proud of today, it's the show's diversity. She talks

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Speaker 1: about it all the time. She even brought it up

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five when she was accepting an award

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Speaker 1: from Essen.

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Speaker 9: Over twenty years ago, I created a television show called America's.

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Speaker 10: Next Top Model, and I fought, and you guys have

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Speaker 10: no idea how hard we fought to bring the diversity

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Speaker 10: to that television show at a time where it didn't.

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Speaker 9: Exist, to show different beauties at a time when the

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Speaker 9: world was like what.

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Speaker 1: You cast in that? And what and what is that?

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Speaker 11: That might be the narrative she's trying to push, but

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Speaker 11: you know they were just trying to create a great show.

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Speaker 1: That's Barez Hilton. You heard him on the second episode.

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Speaker 1: He was a gossip blogger in the early two thousands

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Speaker 1: and a guest judge on A and TM.

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Speaker 11: Top Model really was a pioneer in terms of diversity.

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Speaker 11: I do give her credit for that diversity in color,

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Speaker 11: in socioeconomic background, in trans representation, queer representation. But while

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Speaker 11: that was a factor that wasn't an important one.

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Speaker 1: Perez doesn't think Tyra was a champion of diversity like

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Speaker 1: she said she was, or that A and TM had

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Speaker 1: this diverse cast because she wanted to change the world.

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Speaker 1: He thinks they prioritize diversity because it makes great TV.

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Speaker 1: At first, when Perez said this in our interview, I

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Speaker 1: didn't agree with him. I thought he was a white

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Speaker 1: guy who just didn't get it. But now, after six

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Speaker 1: months of reporting, I gotta admit Perez might be onto something.

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Speaker 1: I do believe Tyra when she said she created A

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Speaker 1: ANDTM to challenge traditional notions around beauty. I think she

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Speaker 1: wanted the audience to see that women of all shapes

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Speaker 1: and colors are beautiful. But I also think it was

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Speaker 1: more than that. Bringing together strangers from completely different backgrounds

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Speaker 1: and walks of life, throwing them into a house and

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Speaker 1: seeing what happens is a proven formula. The reality showed

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Speaker 1: the real world pretty much invented and perfected it in

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Speaker 1: the nineties. A and TM just took that model and

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Speaker 1: will applied it to models because it works. Remember the

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Speaker 1: drama on Cycle one between Christian Robin and Atheis Elise.

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Speaker 1: How many times did we see A and TM put

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Speaker 1: small town sheltered contestants in a house with loose, big

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Speaker 1: city girls, or rich contestants with contestants who grew up

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Speaker 1: in trailer parks, or girls from the hood clashing with

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Speaker 1: girls from the suburbs. I'm convinced A and TM did

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Speaker 1: the British Invasion season just to see the cultural clash

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Speaker 1: between the UK and American models. Last episode, we talked

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Speaker 1: about the way A and TM created characters and why

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Speaker 1: it resonates with audiences. Characters in reality TV help us

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Speaker 1: put the cast into categories, and that in turn helps

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Speaker 1: us understand the story better. It works best when the

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Speaker 1: characters aligned with tropes we already know. Most of us

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Speaker 1: have an idea of the girl next door, or the

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Speaker 1: quiet wallflower or the pageant queen. Those are common tropes

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Speaker 1: we see on television. Picking up on a contestant's personality

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Speaker 1: and then casting and editing them to align with the

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Speaker 1: character trope isn't wrong. The problem is audiences are also

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Speaker 1: looking for characters that align with preconceived racial biases and tropes.

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Speaker 1: Bethany Butler is a freelance journalist who writes about race

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Speaker 1: and reality TV.

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Speaker 3: There's an understanding from the very beginning of reality TV

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Speaker 3: that like, you need to have these archetypes in these

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Speaker 3: characters and oftentimes the stereotypes, the biases we have in

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Speaker 3: our country. In many ways, it's such a microcosm of

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Speaker 3: how we are in real life.

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Speaker 1: And A ANDTM was more than happy to give the

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Speaker 1: audience what they were expecting for all of its diversity.

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Speaker 1: There were less than twenty five Asian contestants in A

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Speaker 1: and TM history, but the few Asian American models who

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Speaker 1: were on the show faced microaggressions and storylines and edits

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Speaker 1: that were based on racial stereotypes. They were fetishized, like

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Speaker 1: Sina Sakai from Cycle eleven. The edit made it seem

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Speaker 1: like all she wanted to talk about was sex. She

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Speaker 1: was a go go dancer, something the show focused on

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Speaker 1: a lot, but she was also a stunt woman and

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Speaker 1: we never heard about that on the show. Aside from that,

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Speaker 1: Asian models were typecast and edited its model minorities or

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Speaker 1: perpetual foreigners. Gina Cho from Cycle six is Korean American.

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Speaker 1: On the semi finals audition episode, her ethnicity was the

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Speaker 1: main focus of her conversation with the judges, So why

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Speaker 1: do you.

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Speaker 9: Want to be America's sex top model.

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Speaker 12: I think that there's just not enough Asian models out there.

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Speaker 12: I feel that I can break down that barrier, and

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Speaker 12: I think it's her responsibility.

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Speaker 1: You say that you're you're not the girl next door,

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Speaker 1: you're wild.

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Speaker 12: What do you mean that If you're to ask me

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Speaker 12: to get down ship naked, I will do it.

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Speaker 1: That's just how I am. Well, the thing is, like,

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Speaker 1: my parents kind of.

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Speaker 12: Have a thing with that, So I mean, I don't

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Speaker 12: know if I would go against my parents or I

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Speaker 12: mean I kind of believe more in the American culture

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Speaker 12: more than my parents. Oh, I'm not into Asian guys.

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Speaker 12: Why the thing is are a lot shorter than I am,

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Speaker 12: which is something that I can't tolerate.

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Speaker 2: You've come so full circle from your initial statement, But.

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Speaker 9: Do you understand how you were a contradiction hers You

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Speaker 9: were saying, I'm Asian, I'm strong, I'm Korean, and then

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Speaker 9: you're saying it's through Korean boys and.

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Speaker 1: I want a white boy.

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Speaker 12: I don't know what exactly happened, but I got confused

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Speaker 12: and I started contradicting myself.

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Speaker 1: Gina's right when she said there aren't a lot of

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Speaker 1: Asian models, but her personal feelings about identity and dating

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Speaker 1: have nothing to do with that fact. But Gina's comments

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Speaker 1: about her race are exactly what captured the judge's attention.

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Speaker 1: Gina was ultimately chosen to go into the house, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's because they wanted to explore an Asian

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Speaker 1: identity crisis storyline. Her questions about her identity and lack

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Speaker 1: of confidence were central to her edit. There was a

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Speaker 1: press conference challenge later that episode where Janis asked Gina

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Speaker 1: about her identity again.

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Speaker 2: Gina, how does being an Asian woman fat you're into

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Speaker 2: your determination to win this competition?

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Speaker 1: I guess I don't know.

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Speaker 12: I just I don't know. I don't know I answer that question.

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Speaker 2: So, Ginaman, when you met us during casting week, that

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Speaker 2: was the first thing you mentioned.

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Speaker 1: So why do you want to be America sex top model?

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Speaker 12: There's just not enough Asian models out there.

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Speaker 2: Why in a room with all these reporters, why would

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Speaker 2: you not take this opportunity to put it in the forefront.

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Speaker 12: I'm just I'm twenty one years old and I don't

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Speaker 12: know who I really am yet. I'm kind of like struggling.

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Speaker 12: I'm like having an identity crisis.

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Speaker 1: Share Gina's parents immigrated from Korea. A lot of first

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Speaker 1: generation Americans have talked about the push and pool between

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Speaker 1: their parents' culture and their American upbringing. It's a lot

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Speaker 1: to navigate, especially on a reality show that keeps bringing

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Speaker 1: it up. My issue is that ANTM casts so few

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Speaker 1: Asian American models, and when they finally did, they chose

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Speaker 1: a girl who was clearly struggling with her identity. Then

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Speaker 1: they made that struggle her storyline, which reinforces stereotypes and

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Speaker 1: distracts from the whole purpose of our on the show,

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Speaker 1: which was supposed to be modeling, but Gina didn't even

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Speaker 1: get it the worst. April Wildner was a contestant on

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Speaker 1: cycle two. April is biracial, Japanese and white. One of

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Speaker 1: the first photoshoots of the season was a take on

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Speaker 1: the Garden of Eden. Each model was supposed to portray

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Speaker 1: a different eve. They wore body paint, headdresses, and little elks.

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Speaker 1: They painted one model purple and gave her a crown

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Speaker 1: and wings like a cherub. Another model they painted all

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Speaker 1: silver and gave her a chain mail head covering like

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Speaker 1: a sexy medieval eve. It's hard to understand what they

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Speaker 1: were going for there. But with April, they were very clear.

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Speaker 1: April was supposed to be Asian Eve, and despite being

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Speaker 1: half Japanese, they painted a giant Chinese dragon on her

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Speaker 1: and adorned her head with little lanterns, another Chinese symbol.

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Speaker 13: April Asian Eve was gorgeous, fantastic, I face this fantastic.

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Speaker 1: My goodness me, that's exactly what I'm looking for. H

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Speaker 1: Sometimes Nigel just gives me the creeps. April did very

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Speaker 1: well in the competition. She was constantly praised by the

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Speaker 1: judges for hitting the mark during her photoshoots, and April

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Speaker 1: took the judges it vice seriously. But she was also

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Speaker 1: consistently criticized for lacking personality. They said she was too analytical,

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Speaker 1: too mechanical, and too perfect.

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Speaker 9: There was absolutely no personality and didn't make me like

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Speaker 9: you and say, oh, I want to be like April.

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Speaker 9: To April, We're not sure if you want this because

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Speaker 9: you want to be a top model and you want

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Speaker 9: to be in this fashion industry, or is it that

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Speaker 9: you just want to win for the sake of winning. April,

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Speaker 9: I still feel like you're very analytical, but I want

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Speaker 9: to see the sensitive and beautiful side of you too.

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Speaker 1: But The problem for me with April is that you

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Speaker 1: know she's clinical. She's like a technician. I want to

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Speaker 1: see some more sec.

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Speaker 9: I would love to see a more romantic side of her.

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Speaker 14: April.

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Speaker 9: This is the strongest picture of the bunch. But when

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Speaker 9: you talk and how you move in your hands so

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Speaker 9: like this, it's not a likable, warm person.

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Speaker 1: Again, you believe after all that they kept going April,

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Speaker 1: you are so technical.

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Speaker 9: But if you want a model and just relax and exhale,

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Speaker 9: how you look like, you know, you need to go

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Speaker 9: to the emergency room.

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Speaker 1: Needed more soul. It was almost too clinical. America's Next

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Speaker 1: Top Model was a competition reality show. Every contestant was

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Speaker 1: trying to be perfect. Everyone was analyzing the challenges and

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Speaker 1: the feedback from the judges. But with April, they made

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Speaker 1: that her storyline. April was so good at the competition,

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Speaker 1: the judges said she was too perfect to them. The

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Speaker 1: fact that she was good at everything made her unrelatable,

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Speaker 1: and that plays into model minority tropes. April made it

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Speaker 1: to the top four in her season. When she was eliminated,

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Speaker 1: Here's what Tyra.

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Speaker 9: Said, April pictures, we feel like you post better than

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Speaker 9: all the girls here, but modeling isn't about being mechanical,

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Speaker 9: It's about emotionally connecting with the camera.

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Speaker 1: Per se these congratulations. When her name wasn't called, April

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Speaker 1: broke down crying. I think they eliminated her just to

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Speaker 1: get that emotional reaction. Tyra said she wanted A and

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Speaker 1: TM to show the audience that women from different ethnic

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Speaker 1: backgrounds can be top models, but the editing and typecasting

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Speaker 1: of April reinforced the opposite. There's an ugly belief about

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Speaker 1: East Asian people that while they may be smart and

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Speaker 1: high achieving, they lack creativity and charisma. April's storyline told

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Speaker 1: the audience that an Asian model can be beautiful and

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Speaker 1: even better than her competitors, but there will always be

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Speaker 1: something inherently missing, which just isn't true. Jaslene Gonzalez, who

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Speaker 1: you heard from a few episodes ago Puerto Rican, She

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Speaker 1: grew up in Chicago. On Cycle eight, Jaslene was framed

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Speaker 1: as a cha cha diva, a moniker she still proudly

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Speaker 1: uses to this day. Here's Jazleene recalling her antm audition.

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Speaker 13: I said, my name, my heights, and where I'm from,

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Speaker 13: like the most cha cha diva ever.

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Speaker 1: It's one thing to showcase the contestants love for their culture.

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Speaker 1: It's another thing to make them a caricature. When Jaslene

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Speaker 1: originally auditioned on cycle seven, she came in the room

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Speaker 1: already turned up. She had a big personality. She was

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Speaker 1: salsa dancing. ANTM played salsa music during her scene, but

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Speaker 1: when she came back from cycle eight, her entrance was

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Speaker 1: a lot more muted. Jaslene was still proudly Latina, but

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Speaker 1: she wasn't embodying the spicy Latina character ANTM wanted her

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Speaker 1: to be. There was a photoshoot where jay Manuel basically said.

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Speaker 2: That I need you to bring me that Latina fire.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if Jazleene felt pressure to fit a

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Speaker 1: certain character or if the producers told her to really

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Speaker 1: lean into her Puerto Rican heritage, but when I talked

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Speaker 1: to her, she certainly didn't seem like a spicy Latina.

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Speaker 1: She's actually really soft spoken. That's the thing about tropes.

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Speaker 1: Real people don't neatly fit into a stereotype. Jasleene is

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Speaker 1: often called the first and only Latina winner of America's

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Speaker 1: Next Top Model, but she's not. Yauanna House, the winner

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Speaker 1: of cycle two, is half Mexican and I don't think

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Speaker 1: it's something she's trying to hide. She mentioned her mother's

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Speaker 1: heritage in her interview with me unprompted, but unlike Jaslene,

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Speaker 1: Yawana's edit didn't revolve around being Latina. It was barely

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Speaker 1: mentioned on the show, and I think it's because Yuana

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Speaker 1: doesn't fit the stereotypical image of a Latina woman. She

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Speaker 1: has pale skin and green eyes. But that gets into

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Speaker 1: the difference between race and ethnicity, which is a nuance

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Speaker 1: antm couldn't handle. That dynamic is something we saw play

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Speaker 1: out with other contestants whose heritage wasn't mentioned because they

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Speaker 1: didn't look the part. UV Gomez, who was Mexican American,

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Speaker 1: taught me producers definitely wanted her to fit into a

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Speaker 1: racial stereotype.

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Speaker 8: They wanted me to be like a crazy Latina girl,

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Speaker 8: you know, the ex gang member.

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Speaker 1: They wanted drama on cycle for UV's initial storyline revolved

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Speaker 1: around her being a reformed gang banger turned model. UV

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Speaker 1: told me when she was in middle school, she was

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Speaker 1: kind of a latchkey kid. Her mom worked a lot,

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Speaker 1: so she didn't have the most supervision. UV said she

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Speaker 1: got into trouble, skipped school, and got into fights.

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Speaker 8: I did hang out with people that did hood rade things,

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Speaker 8: and I was the hood rade doe ofup with my friends.

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Speaker 1: But when UV started to get suspended from school, her

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Speaker 1: mom pulled her out and put her in a new school,

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Speaker 1: and You've made new friends. By the time she got

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Speaker 1: to high school, things had turned around for her. UV

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Speaker 1: says she shared all of this with the A and

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Speaker 1: TM producers, but she also told me she never said

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Speaker 1: she was in a gang, despite Tyra asking her about

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Speaker 1: it during her audition.

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Speaker 15: When I was kid, I went through basically every stage

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Speaker 15: that you could think of.

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Speaker 1: You'd be on your application, it says she used to

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Speaker 1: be in a gang. You've told the casting producers that

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Speaker 1: her friends used to be in a gang. So when

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Speaker 1: Tyra asked her this in the audition, she throws up.

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Speaker 1: The camera cuts away from UV space while you hear

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00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: her reply, which you can tell clearly sounds edited.

433
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 15: Oh goodness, being in a gang and doing all that stuff.

434
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 15: I think it's the worst stage of my life.

435
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 4: Ow.

436
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 15: She just an angry kid. It's sad, like I hate

437
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 15: talking about it. It gets me kind of ah loofy. But

438
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 15: I just had a lot of like resentment against us.

439
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 5: A lot of people.

440
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: Here's UV today.

441
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 8: I don't know how they edited because I didn't say

442
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 8: I was in a gang, but I said I hung

443
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 8: out with people that were in a gang.

444
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 1: I did have cousins in gangs and uncles. UV was

445
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 1: twenty one when she went on the show The Trouble Path.

446
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 1: The producers tried to make into her storyline would have

447
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 1: happened when she was twelve or thirteen, and UV said

448
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 1: that wasn't the only time they tried to make her

449
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 1: into a stereotype.

450
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 8: When I filled out my application, they ask you, where's

451
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 8: the last three places you've lived, last three jobs you've had,

452
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 8: and your three favorite food. So I had lived in

453
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 8: San Francisco, Newport and Modesto. They chose Modesto. I worked

454
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 8: as a model, a janitor and for Abercrombie and Fitch.

455
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: And what did they choose?

456
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 8: Janitor? And then my favorite food was sushi? Mighta said

457
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 8: Italian or pizza?

458
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 1: And then Taco Bell? They picked Taco Bell.

459
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 8: So I was the ex gang member, her nice girl

460
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 8: that lived in Modestra was a janitor at a Taco Bell.

461
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,360
Speaker 1: Sounds hellar racist?

462
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 8: If you asked me, it could have easily said Sushi,

463
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 8: Newport and Model.

464
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: But that's not what they wanted. What they wanted was

465
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 1: for UV to be a stereotype and to act like

466
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 1: a stereotype. But on set she refused to act like

467
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: that gang banging, taco bell eating Mexican janitor, so producers

468
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 1: decided she had to go. By episode four, they'd given

469
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: you V a new storyline, the girl who can't take

470
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: a decent picture. Tyra humiliated her at a judging panel

471
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,880
Speaker 1: over one photo in particular, and one.

472
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 9: Of you has only taken one good photo tonight about

473
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:54,360
Speaker 9: your piss picture. I even said that it's the worst

474
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 9: photo in the history of America's Next Top Model.

475
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: Can you imagine Tyra Banks herself telling you that you

476
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 1: have the worst photo in A and TM history.

477
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 8: Here's UV so dramatic, too, worst fixture in America's Next

478
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 8: timauto history. It was like there had only been four seasons.

479
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 8: Let's calm down.

480
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 1: Now, here's the thing about that photo you've told me?

481
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: She felt set up. The photoshoot was supposed to be

482
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: an interpretation of the zodiac signs. UV represented Pisces, so

483
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: they made her a fish. They literally glued huge shiny

484
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 1: sequence to her face and suspended her in a harness,

485
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: but how can you surface if it's completely covered? In sequence,

486
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: UV was in the bottom after that photoshoot, but she

487
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: didn't get sent home. That came later. At the photoshoot

488
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: that got her eliminated, the models had to pose while

489
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 1: being blown with wind and pelted with water that was

490
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: supposed to look like rain. Despite having to work against

491
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: the elements. Someone behind the scenes told u V they'd

492
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: seen some great photos of her, so you V was

493
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: surprised to see an awful photo of her at the

494
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 1: judging panel. Here's what one of the judges, Nole Marin

495
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: said about her photo, you can't as like a wetch

496
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 1: while on I'm Express over she got sent home. UV

497
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: thinks top Model started the narrative that she couldn't take

498
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: a photo because once they realized she wasn't going to

499
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: be a Mexican gang banger, they didn't know what to

500
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: do with her. Ironically, that gang banger stereotype they pushed

501
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 1: so hard didn't follow her after the show, but the

502
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 1: model with the worst picture title did.

503
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 8: They signed with a celebrity agent after the show, and

504
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 8: he laughed because he's like, man, they painted you like

505
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 8: you didn't know how to take a picture. I'm looking

506
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 8: at your portfolio. He's like, but people are gonna remember

507
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 8: that from the show, so you're gonna have to work

508
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 8: a little bit harder to show them you know how

509
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 8: to take a good picture or you know how to pose.

510
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: Uve told me when she saw her edit after the show,

511
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: she knew A andtm's commitment to diversity wasn't what it seemed.

512
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 8: They were like, no, look at us, We're so diverse,

513
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 8: we have plus models, we have all different ethnicities. But

514
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 8: then we're gonna paint you as your stereotype.

515
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: After the break, we're going to talk about one of

516
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: the most pervasive racial stereotypes on A ANDTM. I'm talking

517
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: about the angry black woman. And what better place to

518
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: start than right here. I was rooting for you.

519
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 9: We were all rooting for you out damn you.

520
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: A andtm's relationship with its black contestants was complicated in

521
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: part because Tyra is a black woman, and it's no

522
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: place you can see that dynamic play out more than

523
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: in her We were rooting for you. Confrontation on Side

524
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: four with Tiffany Richardson, Tiffany had just been eliminated from

525
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: the competition. It was a double elimination. Oh girl, you're

526
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: gonna stop. Unlike the other contestant who'd just been sent home,

527
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: Tiffany didn't seem all that emotional. When she went over

528
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,959
Speaker 1: to say goodbye to the other girls, who were clearly

529
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: upset about her leaving, Tiffany tried to cheer them up.

530
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: She told them to stop crying. She even chuckled. It

531
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: was that attitude Tyra took issue with such.

532
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 9: Now, I'm extremely disappointed in you. This is a joke

533
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 9: to you. You've been through anger management, You've been through

534
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 9: your grandmother getting her lights turned off to buy you

535
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 9: a swimsuit for this competition, and you go over there

536
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 9: and you joke and you laugh. This is serious to

537
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 9: this girls, and this should be serious to you.

538
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 16: Looks can be deceived, and I'm hurt. I am, but

539
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 16: I can't change it.

540
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: Tiffany tried to explain to Tyra that she was disappointed

541
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: about going home. Then she seemed to allude to feeling defeated,

542
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: but Tyra wasn't having it. She cut her off. You

543
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: can't change what.

544
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 16: I'm sick of crown about stuff that I cannot change.

545
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 16: I'm sick of being disappointed. I'm sick of all of it.

546
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 16: I'm not.

547
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: Ain't sick of being disappointed?

548
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 15: No, you're not.

549
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 9: If you were sick of being disappointed, you would stand

550
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 9: up and you would take control of your destiny. Do

551
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 9: you know that you had a possibility to win? Do

552
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 9: you know that all of America is rooting for you?

553
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: In this moment, it seemed like Tiffany had given up.

554
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: It seemed like everyone, including Tyra, wanted her to win

555
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: America's Next Top Model more than she did. On the show,

556
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: we saw Tiffany's enthusiasm for the competition Wayne and it

557
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: was framed as indifference. But according to some of the

558
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: models who were on that season with her, there was

559
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: a lot going on beneath the surface. Here's Britney Brower.

560
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: Tiffany and I were actually really close. Most of you

561
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: all don't know because they don't show us together a

562
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: lot on the show.

563
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 5: I loved Tiffany, and Tiffany was struggling, like not even

564
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:57,719
Speaker 5: with the modeling stuff.

565
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: She missed her child, her son.

566
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 5: You can't call it, make phone calls, and it's just

567
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 5: sort of getting to her.

568
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 1: Tiffany got criticized for being ghetto, even by the other contestants, everybody.

569
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 3: Always talking about the ghetto like that's something man likely.

570
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 16: There are intelligent people in the ghetto. My mom's intelligent,

571
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 16: my grandma's very intelligent.

572
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: Trying to be someone she wasn't was getting to her.

573
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 16: I just felt so upset at myself that I've been

574
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 16: trying to change all these different things about me and

575
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 16: I'm unhappy. Maybe if I can't be this person, that

576
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 16: this model girl, and maybe that's not who I am.

577
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: I think Top Model was putting Tiffany in situations that

578
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: would make her uncomfortable. When Tiffany signed up for the show,

579
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: she knew it would be hard, but she didn't expect

580
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: to feel so manipulated. Here's Tiffany years after the competition ended,

581
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,479
Speaker 1: talking about it with Oliver TwixT. Everything just seem so stage.

582
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: I never knew what was going on.

583
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 16: It was so much pressure, and when this guy was

584
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 16: so excited, then it just became like just a bunch

585
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 16: of pressure.

586
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: It was at least thirty people.

587
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 16: On the side waiting for you to jump off or

588
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 16: do anything and lay on your neck box tire.

589
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: We saw Tiffany put on a brave face, but behind

590
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: the scenes she was crumbling. I cried every freaking episode.

591
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: It wasn't that Tiffany didn't care. In fact, she told

592
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: Oliver she didn't want to get sent home. She really

593
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: wanted to go on the international trip, and she thought

594
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: winning the competition could change her life. But by the

595
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: time we get to the we were rooting for you elimination, Like.

596
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 16: I cried so much.

597
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 12: I was just like, I'm not crying them all.

598
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 14: I'm gone.

599
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: Brittany Brower said she didn't see Tiffany's reaction to being

600
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: eliminated as a sign of indifference. She thought Tiffany was

601
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: just trying to hold it together after shedding so many tears.

602
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: She also told me that Tiffany was a really funny

603
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: person who was always trying to encourage the other girls

604
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: and make them laugh. So when Tiffany tried to cheer

605
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: them up at her elimination, it was on brand. I

606
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 1: don't know Tiffany. We reached out to her and she

607
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: declined to talk. In twenty twenty three, her son was

608
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: shot and killed, the same son we hear her talking

609
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: about on the season, and since his death, she's been

610
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: out of the public eye. But based on what we

611
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: saw on A and TM and on previous interviews, she's done.

612
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: Tiffany didn't have an easy life before getting cast on

613
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: the show. She described herself as being from the hood.

614
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: She said she'd grown up poor and she still was.

615
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: She was a single mom. She slept on a mattress

616
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 1: on the floor at her grandma's house. Apparently Tyra brought

617
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 1: up that mattress detail when she was yelling at Tiffany.

618
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 1: Here's how mixer Jose Torres Jose saw the whole thing

619
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: go down. Tyra took some mean shots.

620
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 17: She said some things to her about you know, what

621
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 17: are you going to do when you go back home

622
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 17: and you're sleeping on that mattress again, when it's just

623
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 17: you and your baby.

624
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: That line ended up getting cut, but it was a

625
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: low blow, especially coming from a woman making millions off

626
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: these very contestants and paying them nothing. I do think

627
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: Tyra was genuine and saying she was rooting for Tiffany.

628
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: Tiffany was and still is, drop dead gorgeous. She looks

629
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: like a model. We know A and TM loves the

630
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: Cinderella story and Tiffany was the perfect candidate. Tiffany was

631
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: there to answer the age old question, if you take

632
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: the girl out the hood, can you indeed take the

633
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: hood out the girl. Here's what Tyra said about the

634
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,240
Speaker 1: perception of girls from the hood. People in the fashion

635
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: industry were telling me, are.

636
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 9: You putting them girls in the hood on your show?

637
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 9: I was like, why can't the girl from the trailer

638
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 9: park become a supermodel, but the girl that's showing in

639
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:58,760
Speaker 9: the park in the hood can't.

640
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 1: Tani was supposed to be Tyra's ghetto glow up story.

641
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: I think that's why Tyra got so mad when she

642
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: saw Tiffany giving up. I'm gonna be real honest with y'all.

643
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: After reporting on A and TM for months, I do

644
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 1: believe certain girls are set up to win. They're usually

645
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: the good models who also have a compelling storyline. And

646
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 1: I think Tyra wanted Tiffany to win. But Tyra was

647
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: rooting for Tiffany the character, not Tiffany the person. Brittany

648
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 1: Brower has always wondered why Tyra didn't do more to

649
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: show Tiffany she cared before that we were rooting for you.

650
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,919
Speaker 5: Moment she's like, we're rooting for you, We're all roady

651
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 5: for you. I guess it, you're rooting for me. She

652
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 5: did not give up, like have some compassion for her.

653
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 5: And if you were so rooting for her and saw

654
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 5: her drowning, what did you help her? What do you

655
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 5: pull her aside? Have production pull her aside, give her

656
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 5: a little pep talk, like, hey, what's going on with you?

657
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 5: I mean, if you see someone really struggling, let's have

658
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 5: some compassion.

659
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: Do you want to call your son?

660
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 5: Why don't you go make a phone call, Go call

661
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 5: your grandma.

662
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: Brittany was Tiffany's competitor. She could have easily said that

663
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: would have been an unfair advantage. Instead, she says it

664
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 1: would have been the compassionate thing to do. Whether you

665
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,439
Speaker 1: agree with this or think, Tiffany should have been sent

666
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: home because she couldn't handle the pressure in the moment

667
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: when she was eliminated, She wasn't given the grace to

668
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: process the situation the way she needed to. Instead, Tyra

669
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 1: chose that moment to bereak Tiffany. When I watched the

670
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 1: we were rooting for You seene the first time, I

671
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: was shocked because it was so out of character for Tyra.

672
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: It was one of those scandalous moments. I couldn't wait

673
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: to talk about it at school the next day. Now,

674
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: after rewatching it. I wanted to have a grown up

675
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: version of that conversation with my understanding of the complicated

676
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: layers of that. So I called up someone who, like me,

677
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,760
Speaker 1: watched it live in two thousand and five, someone who's

678
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: thought about it a lot over the years. We'rekal Gates

679
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 1: is an associate professor of film at Columbia University. She

680
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: wrote a book all about race and pop culture, and

681
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: back in the day, she loved A and TM two.

682
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 1: So I asked her to helped me break down that we.

683
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 18: Were rooting for you moment when Tyra Yell's at her

684
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 18: I find that moment so disturbing, not just because it's

685
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,280
Speaker 18: one black woman yelling at another black woman.

686
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 1: But because of the way that I think.

687
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 18: Tiffany gets completely misread in that moment. It just feels

688
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 18: really obvious to me that she wanted it so much,

689
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 18: she's so disappointed, but she doesn't feel she can be

690
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 18: vulnerable in that moment, and that resonates completely with me

691
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,280
Speaker 18: as a black woman, like You're in this environment trying

692
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,399
Speaker 18: to sort of hold it together, and so to see

693
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 18: that be read as defiance or lack of care, I

694
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 18: find that really offensive.

695
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 1: I watched this scene air live. I didn't give much

696
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: thought to how Tiffany must have been feeling, But now

697
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 1: when I watch it back after having some life experience,

698
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 1: I actually get a little emotional. I know what it's

699
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 1: like to be in a situation and feel like you

700
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 1: don't belong. I know what it's like to try to

701
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 1: hold it together when all you want to do is cry.

702
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 1: I know what it's like to have my hurt feelings

703
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: the misconstrued is indifference, and I bet Tyra does too,

704
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,879
Speaker 1: which is what makes this scene so painful to.

705
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 18: Watch, because I want to believe that maybe in a

706
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 18: different context, maybe if Tira could take a beat and

707
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 18: wasn't filming a show, that she would get it. And

708
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 18: for me, it's a missed opportunity for a black woman

709
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,439
Speaker 18: to recognize the very sort of unique situation that another

710
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 18: black woman is in.

711
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: When Tiffany tried to put on a brave face after

712
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,959
Speaker 1: her elimination, Tyra chose to humiliate her and then said

713
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: she should go back to sleeping on a mattress with

714
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: her baby. Tiffany finally broke I.

715
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 16: Don't have a bad attitude. Maybe I am angry inside.

716
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 16: I've been through stuff so I'm angry.

717
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:10,720
Speaker 1: It was the same Tiffany we met in the Cycle

718
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 1: three auditions when she got into a bar fight. Once again,

719
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: the show got Tiffany to perform one of their favorite

720
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 1: character tropes, the ABW or angry black woman. Let me

721
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: just give you a little definition here. You can think

722
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 1: of the angry black woman label as an umbrella. You

723
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,399
Speaker 1: have the ghetto girl, the diva, the mean girl. There

724
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 1: are a few variations, but in the end, it all

725
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: comes down to black women being perceived as having a

726
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: bad attitude. During the Cycle three audition episode, Tyra acknowledged

727
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 1: the angry black woman trope in a conversation with Cycle

728
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: three winner My Girl Eva Pickford. Eva seemed like a

729
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: mean girl and a diva, but rather than just letting

730
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 1: her be the villain, A and TM gave Eva a

731
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 1: cants at a redemption arc during the auditions. It was

732
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,359
Speaker 1: the very first episode of the season, but Eva had

733
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: already rubbed a few girls the wrong way. There was

734
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,399
Speaker 1: a girl in particular named Amy. Amy was very very thin.

735
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 1: When it was Eva's turn in front of Tyra and

736
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 1: the judges, she had the nerve to say something mean

737
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: about Amy, and Tyra wasn't feeling it.

738
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 19: How are you gonna want to become a model and

739
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:24,800
Speaker 19: take criticism?

740
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: But do you feel there's a need to be nasty?

741
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 9: Do you feel there's a need to be negative.

742
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,839
Speaker 19: I'm not nasty and I'm not negative. Well, I fucally said,

743
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 19: Amy looks nasty. That was very mean, but Amy looks nasty.

744
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 9: The first two seasons of America's Next Top Model, we

745
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 9: had girls that were bitches. They didn't walk in as bitches,

746
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 9: but they get to the house and they're considered a bitch.

747
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:43,760
Speaker 9: I don't want to cast another black bitch.

748
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,240
Speaker 1: This is a rare moment where we see Tyra talking

749
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 1: to a contestant in a way I imagine she must

750
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 1: have talked to her producers. I think it's proof that

751
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 1: Tyra was aware that the show used the angry black

752
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: woman's stereotype, or, as she said, the black bitch. So

753
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: she gave Eva a chance to prove that she was

754
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 1: not another black bitch, that she could be vulnerable, and

755
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,760
Speaker 1: that gave Eva a path to the wind. In Eva's audition,

756
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,240
Speaker 1: Tyra asked her about her difficult childhood and her strange

757
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: relationship with her family. Eva revealed that her parents and

758
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,280
Speaker 1: siblings had said some really mean things to her, Tyra

759
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 1: brought her to tears when she left the judging room.

760
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 1: Before they made the final cut for who would be

761
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 1: in the house, Eva gathered up all the girls and

762
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: made a public apology.

763
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 19: I guess the whole reason I'm standing here and I want

764
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 19: to say something is because i know I have been

765
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 19: rude to a lot of people. I've said hurtful things,

766
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 19: and so I'm apologizing. I'm sorry for anything that I've

767
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 19: said to.

768
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:53,439
Speaker 8: Hurt your feelings.

769
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 19: Because I don't want you to leave here with a

770
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 19: negative oppression of me. I do want to apologize to

771
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 19: each and every one of you, because.

772
00:42:59,160 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 12: You are are.

773
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 5: Not.

774
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,760
Speaker 1: Everyone bought it, especially Amy. The girl Eva said looked nasty,

775
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 1: but it did help with Eva's storyline. She was still

776
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 1: a little mean in the house and definitely a diva,

777
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 1: hence the Eva the Diva nickname, but she got a

778
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: chance to redeem herself, unlike the other so called black

779
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: bitches on the seasons before her. After the break, we'll

780
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: talk more about that trope and the contestants who didn't

781
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 1: get a redemption arc. The angry black woman trope is

782
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: offensive because it's used in a way that implies that

783
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 1: black women are just inherently angry for no reason, or

784
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,320
Speaker 1: it's applied whenever black women are assertive, raise their voice,

785
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: or when we show any emotion other than agreeableness. And

786
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: A and TM used this trope every season from beginning

787
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: to end. Back on episode two of this podcast, you

788
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 1: met Ebonie and Robin, two of the black contestants on

789
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 1: cycle one. Robin was the diva, but Ebone got the

790
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: classic angry black woman at it when she got into

791
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,240
Speaker 1: arguments with the rest of the cast. It was Ebony

792
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: who was too loud, just like, bark over your voice

793
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: and it's so freaking annoying. In an acting challenge where

794
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 1: all the girls had to do a breakup scene, it

795
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: was Ebony's that went too far. It's gonna be hard

796
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: with Ebany.

797
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 3: She's very gressive and she's very frustrated, which can make

798
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 3: her very angry.

799
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 1: And one judge Kimora Lee Simmons even insisted on saying Ebony,

800
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 1: a dark skinned black woman, was hard looking, which is

801
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 1: the biggest stretch in all of this.

802
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 2: Ebany is much too harsh for me. I just don't

803
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 2: get it to.

804
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 1: Ebony was very focused and driven, but it was a competition,

805
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 1: and Ebane was there to win. And sure she got

806
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 1: into a few arguments on her season, but she was

807
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: far from the only one. They were all at each

808
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: other's throats. That's what they were cast to do, and

809
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:12,279
Speaker 1: when Ebane did get angry, it always seemed justified to me.

810
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: In fact, the one time she would have been really

811
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: justified in flipping out because when she asked the other

812
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:20,280
Speaker 1: models if her girlfriend could come over.

813
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 13: I wanted to know if it's okay my girlfriend come

814
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 13: over for about an hour or two today?

815
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 1: Where were you guys to be at bedrooms? My voice

816
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: on six?

817
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 3: I think that.

818
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 1: Definitely it is wrong. It says in the Bible of

819
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,479
Speaker 1: that it's an abomination to the Lord.

820
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 13: I don't personally agree with you your why, I mean,

821
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 13: just because you know I don't agree with you. Know

822
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 13: you know Lisbandon gave relationships. But I mean I can't judge.

823
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:42,320
Speaker 17: You the fine.

824
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 13: I just you know, like I just don't want and

825
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 13: ours living foss fabulous.

826
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 17: I understand we work in this.

827
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 14: I'm trying to work it.

828
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 1: After all those negative comments, Ebanie didn't get angry. She

829
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: was downright polite. But Tyra and the judges didn't see

830
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 1: that side of her. According to Tyra, Ebanie was sent

831
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: home because of her attitude.

832
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 4: You are beautiful and your smile is breathtaking, but you

833
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 4: have when you come into the room, we sense a

834
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 4: chip on your shoulder, a type of anger that makes

835
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 4: you push yourself too hard, to the point where you

836
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 4: lose focus and you become difficult to work with.

837
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: It was as if Tyra was trying to teach her

838
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 1: a lesson. You could hear it in her tone. Tyra

839
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 1: was a good black woman who was accepted in predominantly

840
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,839
Speaker 1: white spaces while black women like Ebanie couldn't cut it.

841
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: This scene on the first season positioned Tyra as a

842
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: respectability role model for how a black model should act.

843
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 1: I didn't get to interview Ebanie for this podcast, but

844
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: judging by what she said in other interviews and on

845
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: social media, Ebanie seems to be the first ANTM contestant

846
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 1: to fall victim to the angry Black woman at it.

847
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 1: Last year on Instagram, Ebanie said Tyra's comment affected her career.

848
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,760
Speaker 1: She said she had a really hard time getting signed

849
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 1: with an agency, and she thinks it had a lot

850
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: to do with the way she was portrayed on the show,

851
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: but Ebany was the first of many. The angry Black

852
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: Diva trope continued into the last season of A and TM.

853
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: I actually wanted to give y'all a whole play by

854
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: play with breakdowns of who said what, but we'd been

855
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 1: here for another two hours, So at the risk of

856
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 1: flattening these women again, here's A and TM's Angry Black

857
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 1: Women greatest hits, starting with Camille from cycle two, Tyra's

858
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 1: other so called black bitch. People can say what they

859
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 1: wanna say, they could feel the way they wanna feel, honestly,

860
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: like I couldn't really care less. My objective is to win, and.

861
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 14: We didn't get kicked off for hitting somebody. Don't ask

862
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 14: me told up right now, if.

863
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 1: You can tell the truth to save your life, are

864
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: you kidding?

865
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 9: Shut up?

866
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 1: Did she not come up to me to say that

867
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 1: your anger you in trace? This is a competition.

868
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 9: This is not America's next top best friend.

869
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 16: All these girls in here bitches, And that's all I

870
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 16: gotta say.

871
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: Honestly, how manas in my competition? I don't manage your

872
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 1: your body. It's not better than me.

873
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 12: You're on plus saying.

874
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 9: No matter what, any girl a calm saying anybody.

875
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 1: This is making me anxious. I don't know how I

876
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: watched this season after season.

877
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 17: If you're talking, so you're able to shut up or

878
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:32,479
Speaker 17: go to the living.

879
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:35,280
Speaker 16: But I know if I see one of my items

880
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 16: on someone, I'm gonna be.

881
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 1: Like, take my you stole that from me, Take it off,

882
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: Thank you, bitch.

883
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 9: I'm uneducated. I went to a red boss top and

884
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 9: fifty school.

885
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:45,279
Speaker 8: Look it up.

886
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,399
Speaker 1: Can you believe we're only at cycle fourteen? We're gonna

887
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 1: have to speak this thing up? Everyone here doesn't like me?

888
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: Is that what it is? People put the question of

889
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:00,320
Speaker 1: my back because I'm about to go off and closing

890
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: out the hit list. It's real Summers from cycle twenty

891
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 1: four You don't have to do anything.

892
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 16: You just like stand there and I was like, oh

893
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 16: my god a clause.

894
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: Yes, you're amazing. I had to work spier to work

895
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 1: my ass off. I can change everything. There's nothing wrong

896
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 1: with getting angry. Everyone feels anger. There's nothing wrong with

897
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:25,919
Speaker 1: being loud, and in a modeling competition, I'd argue there's

898
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,920
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with being a diva. As I pointed out

899
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: in an earlier episode, the show loved to air contestants

900
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 1: angry tirades. That was the show's bread and butter. But

901
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: the danger of the ABW trope is that it flattens

902
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: people into one dimensional characters. Most of the women you

903
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 1: just heard were villains on their season. And remember A

904
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: and TM is about a Cinderella, not lupus wicked ass.

905
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,399
Speaker 1: Very few of the black women were set up to win.

906
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: Abw's were cast and created on set for a reason

907
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: because they're fun to watch and fun to hate. Here

908
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: sound engineer Jose Torres.

909
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 17: When casting Top Model, it became obvious to us after

910
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:14,840
Speaker 17: certain number of seasons. Some people were cast on the

911
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 17: show to be on the show, and some people were

912
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:22,359
Speaker 17: cast on the show to do well or to win.

913
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,359
Speaker 17: But some girls got cast on the show because they're

914
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 17: just they're gonna give you good TV.

915
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 16: You know.

916
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 17: It's like they're gonna get a couple of good photoshoots

917
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 17: out of them, but we'll get good TV out of

918
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 17: them and people will remember them for a while.

919
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 3: You know.

920
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 17: I don't think they cast Jade from cycle six.

921
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 1: To win. And yet Jade is one of the most

922
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 1: memorable contestants of the whole franchise. She's the one you

923
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: just heard in the Angry Black woman montage saying.

924
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 9: This is not America's next top best friend.

925
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 1: And this is years before Lashawn Beyond and uttered those

926
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 1: famous words on RuPaul's Drag Race. After the show, Jade

927
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 1: quit modeling in part because of how bad A ANDTM

928
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 1: made her look. That's the harsh reality of the ABW

929
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:15,359
Speaker 1: trope in action. A and TM made a lot of

930
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 1: money on how volatile and funny women like Jade could be,

931
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: but it was at the contestants expense. The show reinforced

932
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: the message that working with the black woman was a

933
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 1: risk because that angry, loud, hard to work with diva

934
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 1: could always jump out. Of course, there are black women

935
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: who avoided the angry black women edit on A ANDTM,

936
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:41,800
Speaker 1: black women who never got angry even when the situation

937
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: warranted a crash out. But that didn't mean they avoided

938
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 1: being humiliated for the cameras. Jada Young was a contestant

939
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: on Psycho seven. Jada was in the competition long enough

940
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: to go on the trip to Spain. While there, the

941
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 1: models had to shoot a commercial where they were paired

942
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,840
Speaker 1: with male models. The day before the shoe the A

943
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,320
Speaker 1: and TM girls went out to dinner with their partners

944
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: to practice their lines and hopefully build some chemistry before

945
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: the commercial's big makeout scene. The white model Jada was

946
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,720
Speaker 1: partnered with seeing stand offish compared to the other guys.

947
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 1: He didn't want to talk to her or go over lines.

948
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: Then he told her why he didn't like black girls.

949
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 11: You didn't I.

950
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:30,359
Speaker 7: Feel like this good?

951
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:34,240
Speaker 12: Jada's partner, Natcho tells Jada that he doesn't.

952
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 1: Even liked black girls. She's like, are you serious? No

953
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 1: one should be treated like that. He doesn't want to

954
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,920
Speaker 1: help me. You like it, rabbits, He doesn't want to

955
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 1: help me.

956
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,359
Speaker 14: I'm worried about tomorrow shoe because I have to make

957
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:47,479
Speaker 14: out with this guy who's an idiot and a jerk,

958
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 14: and he says he doesn't like black girls.

959
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: Jada was shaken the next day when she showed up

960
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,840
Speaker 1: on set. The guy was there. Producers hadn't recast him,

961
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:59,479
Speaker 1: and that meant she had to kiss this guy who

962
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 1: the day before told her he didn't like black girls.

963
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:06,280
Speaker 1: Jada was clearly still upset at the shoot, and Tyra

964
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 1: was there. When Jada told Tyra what the guy had said.

965
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: This was Tyra's response, Well, you're gonna have to give.

966
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 9: Him a kiss to make him love some black girls,

967
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 9: because what do they say once they go black?

968
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 1: They don't go black? Tyra Banks Ladies and Gentlemen, a

969
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 1: champion of diversity at the shoot, Jada struggled to remember

970
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:30,880
Speaker 1: her lines, which were in a different language. She was

971
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:33,919
Speaker 1: at a disadvantage. The guy refused to rehearse with her,

972
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:36,720
Speaker 1: and when the time came for the kiss, she cried.

973
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 1: When her commercial was shown at the judging panel, it

974
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:44,360
Speaker 1: wasn't great. She may have expected empathy from Tyra and

975
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 1: the judges, but she was met with the opposite. I

976
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: was nervous and I was thinking about then, Okay, this

977
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 1: guy doesn't like me.

978
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 9: When I spoke to you guys, you told me that

979
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 9: this is the guy that said that he didn't want

980
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 9: to kiss a black girl.

981
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 1: He doesn't like black girls. Ooh, now guy said that

982
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,440
Speaker 1: he told me that to me the night before, and

983
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 1: I feel like he's crawling and it's skinning. Just exkiss me.

984
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 4: On mine and you're going to take control.

985
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:08,399
Speaker 2: He those on him.

986
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,359
Speaker 11: He's just an extra that should not have stopped her

987
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 11: from doing the job that she was sent there to do.

988
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 1: After this, Jada was sent home and that racist extra

989
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 1: got his paycheck. I will say Jada wasn't consistent in

990
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 1: the competition. She had been saved from elimination before, but

991
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 1: if there was any time to save her, this should

992
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 1: have been it. Unfortunately, things like this happened in the

993
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:37,359
Speaker 1: real world, but this was a production. If they were

994
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 1: champions of diversity, they could have used this moment to

995
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 1: take a no tolerant stance on racism. They should have

996
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:47,360
Speaker 1: replaced that male model he was an extra, but instead

997
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 1: they put Jada, a black model, in an uncomfortable and

998
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 1: dehumanizing situation, and that sent the message to the audience

999
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 1: that the onus is on black people to rise above

1000
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 1: the racism, not on the racist themselves to you know,

1001
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:09,400
Speaker 1: not be racist at work. I want to tell you

1002
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,359
Speaker 1: about one more time. A and TM put a black

1003
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 1: woman in an uncomfortable situation and then punished her for

1004
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 1: her reaction. For a lot of black women who watched

1005
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 1: the show, this moment is seared into our memory and

1006
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:24,319
Speaker 1: I think it says a lot about the way the

1007
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 1: show thought about race, particularly when it came to black contestants.

1008
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 1: Ya Ya DaCosta was the runner up on cycle three.

1009
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:36,359
Speaker 1: She's African American with some Afro Brazilian heritage. Ya y'all

1010
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 1: was afrocentric, meaning she embraced her connection to Africa. You

1011
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 1: could see it in how she styled her hair, the

1012
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 1: clothes she wore, and how she carried herself in the competition.

1013
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 1: Ya y'all's afrocentricity was a big point of contention with

1014
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: the judges. There was a judging panel where the girls

1015
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 1: had to pick from a selection of hats and build

1016
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 1: an outfit around it. There was a leather hat, a

1017
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 1: black fascinator hat, a cowboy hat, and a can take

1018
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 1: cloth hat. Kentte is a really well known fabric that

1019
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 1: originated in Ghana, West Africa. Much to the judge of surprised,

1020
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:11,959
Speaker 1: yah Ya chose the cowboy hat, not the Kentte hat.

1021
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 1: Why did you choose the cowboy hat?

1022
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:16,879
Speaker 14: It's more on the simple side compared to the other hat,

1023
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:19,240
Speaker 14: so that I can go crazy with accessories and express

1024
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 14: myself without being cliche.

1025
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think you look beautiful.

1026
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:24,799
Speaker 3: I think everyone probably pegged you if going for the

1027
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 3: typical African hat.

1028
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 2: Yah Ya, your I feel half African, half cowgirl.

1029
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 1: Looks like you're about to write a giraffe.

1030
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 9: I think I'm not feeling.

1031
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 5: That you have this intensity to prove your sort of africanness,

1032
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 5: and I think that sometimes it's overbearing.

1033
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:42,919
Speaker 1: It's just too much. The judge who just said yah

1034
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 1: Ya was overbearing, that was a guest judge. She was white,

1035
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 1: and that comment from her would have sent me over

1036
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:52,800
Speaker 1: the edge. But I think yah Yah handled it well.

1037
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 14: In response to trying to prove myself as an African.

1038
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 14: That's just where I come from. It's very natural to me.

1039
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 14: And I did not choose that hat for the very

1040
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 14: specific reason. That is very cliche. Doesn't that wreck that

1041
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 14: it's made from, It's very artificial, very Cheapkante. I didn't

1042
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 14: have the time. I know, I'm running on.

1043
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 9: There's a different way of explaining yourself and being defensive,

1044
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 9: and you're being very defensive and it's not attractive.

1045
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 14: Just because we had to talk about you know, I

1046
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 14: feel centricity before and it's kind of misunderstood.

1047
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 9: I'm all about like.

1048
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 1: You can hear the strain in Yaya's voice. She's trying

1049
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 1: not to get loud or seem angry, even though the

1050
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 1: judges just completely attacked her identity. A and TM set

1051
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 1: her up to take the Kinte cloth. I think it's

1052
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 1: because they wanted to reprimand her for wearing her culture

1053
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 1: on her sleeve. A and TM wanted to get an

1054
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 1: angry moment out of yah Ya, and when they couldn't

1055
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 1: get that, they wanted to humble her. In their eyes,

1056
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 1: she was wrong for not taking the hat. Then they

1057
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 1: criticized her for explaining why she didn't take the hat.

1058
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 1: And even though she never lost her cool, Tyra called

1059
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 1: her defensive. Yah Ya couldn't win. Tyra said it was

1060
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 1: her mission on ANTM to portray diverse beauty, but it

1061
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 1: seemed like another mission got in the way, her desire

1062
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 1: to make a hit TV show. ANTM trafficked in negative

1063
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 1: racial stereotypes, ones that fed into the audience's most base nature.

1064
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 1: The show could have challenged those stereotypes. Instead, it appealed

1065
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 1: to the lowest common denominator. But a funny thing happens

1066
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 1: when you appeal to that lowest common denominator, you can't

1067
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 1: choose to be above it. There's only one time on

1068
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:47,920
Speaker 1: the show where we saw Tyra get really angry. I've

1069
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:50,560
Speaker 1: never in my life Yoda the girl like this, And

1070
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 1: isn't it ironic that even Tyra couldn't escape the angry

1071
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 1: black woman trope? Because after all these years, that is

1072
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 1: still her most memorable moment. I was rooting for you.

1073
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 9: We're all rooting for you.

1074
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 19: Out damn you.

1075
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 1: On the next episode, our conversation about A and TM

1076
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 1: and identity continues. America's Next Top Model featured an openly

1077
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:20,200
Speaker 1: trans contestant in two thousand and eight, something that was

1078
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:23,360
Speaker 1: shocking at the time, but they made her time on

1079
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 1: the show a spectacle.

1080
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 13: I was there as a trans woman, so like, that's

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Speaker 13: enough of an empire.

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Speaker 1: I don't need to do a homo shot on camera.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Curse of America's Next Top Model.

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00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 1: We're grateful for your support. We'd love for you to

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Speaker 1: really show your support by subscribing to our show on

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00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:48,040
Speaker 1: Apple podcast. Don't forget to give us a five star review.

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00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 1: If you love the show, tell your group, chat, your friends,

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00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 1: your mama to check us out. And if you don't,

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00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 1: maybe keep that one to yourself. The Curse of America's

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00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 1: Next Top Mo is a production of Glass Podcasts, a

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Speaker 1: division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcast.

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Speaker 1: The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and

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01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 1: senior produced by me Bridget Armstrong. Our story editor is

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01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 1: Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andrea Gunning.

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01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 1: Associate producers are Alisha Key, Kristin Melciriy, and Curry Richmond.

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01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 1: Consulting producers on this podcast are Oliver TwixT and Kate Taylor.

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01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 1: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio

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01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 1: editing on this episode by Matt del Vechio, Andrew Callaway

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01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:37,479
Speaker 1: and Tanner Robbins. The Curse of America's Next Top Model

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01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 1: theme was composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by

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Speaker 1: my Music Special Thanks to everyone we interviewed, especially the

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Speaker 1: former contestant, and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the

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01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

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Speaker 1: Also check out the et Glass podcast Instagram for Curse

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Speaker 1: of America's Next Top Model behind the scenes content.