WEBVTT - Katie’s 2024 Next Question: Wrapped 0:00:01.600 --> 0:00:05.960 Make financial progress with into It Credit Karma. It's straightforward, 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:09.840 stress free and personalize for your financial journey. Download the 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:15.160 app to get started Credit Karma Start making Progress today. 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:21.400 Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is Next Question. 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:30.880 Wow twenty twenty four. What a year it's been. It's 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:34.080 wrapping up and so is this podcast. At least this 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:38.200 season of Next Question. To mark the end of this road, 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:42.240 we gathered some of the brightest observers of politics, from 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:47.640 journalists to consultants, from sociologists to former ambassadors, and looking 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:50.680 back on all the conversations I had, there is a 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:55.880 clear through line. We're in for an unpredictable, possibly perilous, 0:00:56.080 --> 0:01:00.440 and democracy shaking four years. There are some bright spots though, 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:03.480 some ways forward, and we'll get to that too, But 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:08.600 first let's revisit early November twenty twenty four, the day 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:12.319 after Donald Trump was elected for a second time. I 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:16.959 spoke with my good friend and former podcast buddy Brian Goldsmith. 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:21.040 With Kamala Harris's defeat fresh on our minds, we tried 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:23.320 to make sense of exactly. 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:29.360 What happened. Well, we may have overcomplicated this election. You 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:32.560 had an incumbent president with a forty percent approval rating. 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.600 You had sixty five seventy percent of the country saying 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:40.440 we're on the wrong track. Stuff costs about twenty percent 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:44.039 more than it did before COVID, and people were broadly 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:47.880 dissatisfied with the status quo and the party in power, 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:51.480 so they voted for the out party. Any political scientist 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:54.280 would tell you that that is the most normal thing 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:56.840 in the world. But of course Donald Trump is the 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:00.640 least normal candidate, imaginable and given and all of the 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:04.800 as he would say, huge baggage that he's bringing into 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:08.600 this race and now into the White House. I think 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:11.080 a lot of Democrats, including me, thought this time would 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:12.640 be different, but it wasn't. 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:17.120 Do you think that a lot of pundits and political 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:22.960 experts such as yourself, Ryan thought that again his lunacy 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:30.120 would outweigh people's pain at the pump and the grocery store, etc. 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:35.040 Well, we thought a couple of things. We thought the 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:38.920 load was just too much for voters to bear at 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:43.160 a certain point, the load of Trump right, all his problems. 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:43.760 You know. 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:47.440 We saw a version of this in North Carolina, where 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:53.160 people wanted to vote for change. The state voted Republican 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:57.680 for president, and yet they elected the Democrat Josh Stein 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:01.560 as governor by a pretty big margin because well, I. 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:06.520 Mean, in fairness that his opponent was insane. If Mark Robinson, 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:09.680 if hadn't been revealed that he was called himself a 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:13.600 black hitler and liked to watch transgender people have sex, 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:17.720 you know, that was part of his choice in pornography. 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:19.800 Well that's just an example of the load is too 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:21.880 much to bear. So the load was too much for 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:24.840 voters to bear with Mark Robinson. I think democrats thought, 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:28.880 just as Mark Robinson was ultimately rendered unelectable based on 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:32.280 his problems, Donald Trump would be rendered unelectable based on 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:35.240 his problems. And yeah, he didn't call himself a black Nazi, 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:37.800 but he did try to overturn a free and fair 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:42.920 election and instigate a violent insurrection. So you know, Potato, Patato. 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.120 Well he's done a lot more than just that massive thing. 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:48.600 I mean, if you just look at the last ten 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:51.240 days of the campaign, and we've talked about this, Brian, 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:55.120 it seemed he was making no effort, as Maureen Dowd 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:58.600 wrote her Nerd column, to expand his base, to widen 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.280 the net, to get any voter he could, and he 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:07.880 just drilled down on this sort of obnoxious browie. I 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:13.080 can say anything and there are no repercussions. Unhinged kind 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:17.880 of weird behavior from filating. I never knew that was 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:20.160 the verb. By the way, I learned something this week 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:25.960 filating a microphone. And you know, making all these disgusting, 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:27.960 gross comments called us. 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:31.200 Should be shot, saying that his opponent should be arrested. 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:36.080 Yeah, you know, Nancy Pelosi is a bitch, Kamala is trash, 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:38.360 you know, et cetera, et cetera. 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:43.480 Yeah, and more seriously, you know, promising all sorts of 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:47.520 illegal actions as president. And so you know, to step 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:51.279 back to answer your question. Yeah, we thought, despite broad 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:55.520 dissatisfaction with the direction of the country, that Harris had 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:58.920 run a pretty good campaign. She tried to position herself 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:02.839 as a change candidate. She closed some of the gap, 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:05.919 a lot of the gap on handling the economy, and that, 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:11.919 just as in twenty twenty two, Democrats would overperform because 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:15.320 of the Trump factor. And what I think we know 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:20.440 pretty definitively now is that Trump is a unique political 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:25.839 animal who is kind of untouchable to his supporters no 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:29.040 matter what he says or does and brings out a 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:31.160 pretty big coalition to the polls. 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:32.000 No matter what. 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:34.640 Now, his coalition this time is actually pretty different than 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:36.760 his coalition in twenty sixteen. And we'll get into all 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:39.840 of that. But to your original point, it was a 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:43.200 broad based victory in the Swing States. It was a 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:48.200 series of narrow victories, consistent victories across the Swing states. 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:50.640 But he wasn't winning the Swing States by five or 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:53.080 ten points. He was winning them by one or two points. 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.800 He had bigger gains in places where the campaign wasn't 0:05:56.839 --> 0:06:01.080 actually being fought between Harris and Trump on the airwaves, 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:04.279 but the whole country did seem to move in his direction. 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:11.080 A unique political animal. Wow, that's really an understatement. It 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:14.760 seemed to me that change beat out any personality issues 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:18.800 Trump might have exhibited. His fans just didn't care. And 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:21.640 there's a certain authenticity to the man that seems to 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:24.680 be appealing to a lot of his supporters. I'll never 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:27.400 forget what he said when he was running the first time, 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:30.440 I could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and it wouldn't matter, 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:34.080 or something along those lines. I think it's really true. 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:37.719 Nothing he said, nothing he did or failed to do, 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:42.400 seemed to impact voters. They just love the guy and 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:46.440 some of those coalitions Brian mentioned well, Trump did increase 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:50.600 his support among black and Latino men, young men, and 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:55.320 with urban and world voters. Perhaps no issue other than 0:06:55.360 --> 0:07:00.400 inflation loomed larger in this election than immigration and Trump's 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:04.039 vision on how to handle the border crisis. I spoke 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:07.520 to MSNBC's Jen Soak about how we got to the 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:14.000 point where mass deportations actually resonated with so many Americans. 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:15.600 So who's to blame? 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:19.840 Sort of everybody's at fault in Washington in some ways 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:24.320 because immigration is such a politically charged issue that people 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:28.600 are unwilling to compromise on it and have real negotiations 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:32.000 and discussions about it. I mean, Biden proposed an immigration 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.080 bill that included increased border security and a more humane 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:39.200 asylum processing the first day, right, Right, No one would 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:41.240 discuss it, No one would come to the White House 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:43.600 and meet with him about it. I'm not saying that 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:46.400 he's blameless. I'm just saying like that, right, tells you 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:47.880 a lot about politics. 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:49.920 Often brought that up during the campaign. 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:52.400 Yeah, that is true. What is also true is that 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:55.440 because the COVID restrictions were in place for so long 0:07:56.400 --> 0:08:01.200 that was in many ways artificially keeping the numbers lower 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.800 until they were flipped back. And then during that period 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.960 of time there was the negotiation with Mexico about re 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.080 implementing the Remain in Mexico program, which was there was 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:14.119 a lot of criticism of and a lot of people 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:18.400 who hated that, especially from the left. So I think 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:23.840 there was a delayed reaction to where clearly the country 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:29.560 was moving on immigration by I actually not really Joe Biden, 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:32.480 but a lot of people in the system and the 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:38.600 Democratic Party within the caucuses, and it wasn't very clear 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:42.320 to me that it had moved massively until that bipartisan 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:46.280 border bill. So yes, hindsight's always twenty twenty. But I 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:50.720 think looking now, there are aspects of how the party 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:54.439 should proceed from here, which I think this election should 0:08:54.480 --> 0:09:00.200 be partly informative about, including acknowledging that the border and 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:02.600 having a secure border is a part of what the 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:05.520 Democratic Party messaging needs to be proactively, you know. 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:06.280 Yeah. 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:08.319 On the other hand, though, I think we should point 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:13.480 out how Donald Trump and the party exploited the immigration 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:17.520 issue with false information about the crimes that were committed 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:24.959 and really misrepresented the fact that actually immigrants commit fewer 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:28.920 crimes than native foreign citizens in this country. But I 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:33.600 think it just got so twisted and exploited, and the 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:38.920 fear and the fentanyl and all that stuff. I think 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:42.800 it got mixed up in one big bowl and made 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:47.439 people just terrified, and to the point where for a 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:51.280 lot of Americans, rounding up people and having a mass 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:56.679 deportation of thirteen million immigrants sounded like a good idea. 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:01.880 Jen brings up I think an excellent point that's undeniable 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:05.800 in this era of modern American politics, and that, of course, 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:11.920 is misinformation. Trump's communication strategy has relied heavily on stirring 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:17.040 up fear of immigrants, of trans people, of liberals, of 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:21.280 high inflation, even as our economy was recovering. How can 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.719 we actually break through the fear to have real conversations 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:27.520 with people we disagree with to come up with some 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:32.160 actual solutions. I spoke with Megan McCain about that, someone 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:35.559 who really doesn't see the world the same way I do. 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:39.600 But first I asked her about the stickiness of Trump's 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:42.400 message and why it was so effective. 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:45.600 One of the smartest things he's ever said is they're 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:48.640 not after me either, after you I'm just in the way, 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.160 And I think there's just a feeling of a lot 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:54.400 of people in the country who you know, are living 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:56.520 paycheck to paycheck, who have been screaming at the top 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:59.680 of their lungs that inflation's killing them. I have a 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:02.000 friend in my life who couldn't go on a summer 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:04.600 vacation this summer because of the amount of money she 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:07.640 was paying extra and gas and inflation and interest rates 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:10.160 on her I believe health insurance, can't remember a health 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:14.520 or car insurance, and her husband's gainfully employed. So I 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.319 think there was just a feeling that people are not 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:20.559 being heard, the needs of the lower middle class are 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:23.800 not being addressed, and that Trump continues to say I'm 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:28.200 an outsider, I am going to fight for you, and 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:30.960 people believed it. And I just think there's been a 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:34.400 lot of mistakes done along the way, but from Democrats 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:37.880 running for office and governing in a world they want 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:40.280 to see exist and not the one that actually exists. 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:42.520 So I think for a lot of people, as James 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:44.840 Carville says, it's just the economy stupid and they just 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.360 want change. I also think people are like very scared 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:50.679 about the border and very scared about a lot of 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:53.240 these culture war issues and just seeing a world changing 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:55.040 in a way that they don't like. And they've sort 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:57.280 of come to terms with the fact that the person 0:11:57.280 --> 0:11:59.400 who's going to change it comes in this like really 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.880 really corrupt and character flawed package. 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:07.680 How can we have more conversations like this? How can 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:11.760 we have two people who disagree on a lot of issues, 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.840 and how we approach and tackle some of the thorniest 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:22.280 problems in our country and have civil, respectful conversations. How 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:26.280 can we encourage other people to do this? 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:30.439 Megan, I mean, I always lead with love in every 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:32.679 part of my life that I'm capable of. I'm not perfect, 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:34.840 and I certainly have still have a timber and I 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:37.120 can still be like whatever. But I think age and 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.080 having kids is I just want to have be in 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:41.720 a world that I want my kids to be in, 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:45.160 and this level of division is not tolerable or sustainable. 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:47.760 And I think I'm open to I will talk to 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:50.200 anyone as long as it's respectful. I will talk to 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:52.040 anyone on any side, as long as I know that 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:54.160 there's not going to be screaming and name calling or 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:56.520 anything like that. And I just think you can only 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.560 lead by example and control how you behave speak. And 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:04.960 I also think we should reward platforms that have bipartisan 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:07.800 conversations right in this moment. It's actually what I'm the 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.680 most interested in listening to across the board. I'm interested 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:13.520 in both sides coming together and discussing where we're at. 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:15.760 And I think the reflection of how bad the ratings 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:18.679 are on MSNBC and CNN right now show that maybe 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:26.520 there's an appetite for more interesting converse, nuanced conversations. 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:37.880 Tired of your credit score playing hard to get into it, 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:41.000 Credit Karma is the sidekick you never knew you needed. 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:44.080 With personalized tips and step by step tools, you'll go 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:48.120 from credit confusion to confidence in no time. Plus Credit 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:53.319 Karma tailor's credit card and loan recommendations to your financial profile, 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:57.360 making your financial choices feel like a perfect match. Download 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:00.640 the app to start turning your credit game around Karma 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:15.920 start making progress today. So will Trump deliver on his 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:19.800 campaign promises? I mean, he's already walked back as pledged 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:23.320 to lower prices at the grocery store. So will his 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:25.720 supporters ultimately feel betrayed? 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:26.680 Now? 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.360 By the way, they're not a monolith, as we mentioned 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:33.200 Trump voters represent a broad swath of the country. If 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:35.680 you're a regular listener of this podcast, you know I'm 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.520 a huge fan of Brian Stephenson. And to have some 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:42.480 of those nuanced conversations that Megan mentioned, you have to 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.720 be proximant. He would say, you have to get out 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:47.960 of your bubble and be exposed to people who live 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:52.480 differently and may think differently. I had a fascinating conversation 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:57.320 with someone who did just that. Sociologist Arley Hoakeshield, who 0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:01.000 teaches at Berkeley, of all liberal places, spend time in 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.640 southern Louisiana for her first book, Strangers in their Own Land, 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:07.840 and then in one of the poorest counties in the 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:12.720 country in Kentucky for her second book, called Stolen Pride. 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:17.080 Her goal was to better understand what was motivating a 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:19.320 big segment of American voters. 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:23.920 If we go back two decades and we look at 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:30.600 three decades, look at nafta offshoring automation that has created 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:35.280 the haves and the have nots of globalization, and so 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.840 the haves who live in cities who have bas for 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:43.760 whom new opportunities have opened up, aren't looking at the 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:48.600 situation of loss. It's not just deprivation, but loss of 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:54.040 actually the white blue collar class. So they feeling frightened 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.920 them and a sense of loss. So they have turned 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:03.240 to a charismatic figure who works through emotions. And that's 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:08.520 that's why it's important. I believe, for example, that Donald 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:14.720 Trump has I think actually as a person, he's experienced 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:17.960 shame and very harsh father and that would be neither 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:22.840 here nor there, except that it's given him enormous insight 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:27.120 into the pain of unwarranted shame that a lot of 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:31.480 blue collar men who feel in free fall have felt. 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:37.040 I really appreciate that Arley doesn't just drop into these communities. 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:42.520 She really embeds in these different places and gains people's trusts, 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:46.200 so they really open up to her about their life experiences. 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:50.440 And that's something I talk with Jessica Tarlov about. She's 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:54.440 the lone Democrat on the most popular show on Fox News, 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:58.080 it's The Five, and she's learned that her co hosts 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:02.080 who disagree with her passionately most things, have come to 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:02.840 their views. 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:09.280 Honestly, I'm a proud establishment Democrat, very moderate by the 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:13.480 party's standards, you know, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, type of Democrat, 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:16.680 not more AOC Bernie Sanders Mold And I think that 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:21.199 that works better with the bipartisan conversation, because I mean, 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:22.960 if you want to have a food fight, and you 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.720 remember what cable news was like around once Trump announced, 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.000 and like every night on CNN, it was like Anna 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:34.639 Navarro losing her mind, right, and Kaylee Mcanenniy was on 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:38.000 in those days, and Anderson Cooper is just kind of 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:40.520 sitting in the middle petrified, right like that, That's what 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:45.960 it was like. But you could have a more thoughtful conversation, 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:50.520 and I found myself being able to do that more 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:54.320 or less. And it always is embedded, at least for 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:58.119 me coming from a place of understanding that I'm talking 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.800 to people who generally come by their beliefs honestly. And 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.040 I think that too many people suppose that folks who 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:07.960 they don't agree with don't actually believe the things that 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:11.080 they're saying. But most of the time they do, and 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:13.359 a lot of that is due to circumstances how they 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:15.640 grow up. Like I grew up here in New York City, 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.239 I have had a charmed life. I know where my 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:22.080 liberal politics come from and what my lived experience has 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:24.639 been and going to work at a place like Fox, 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:28.080 I now have people in my orbit who have a 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:32.959 completely different set of backgrounds who when they talk about 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:35.239 how they feel about the Second Amendment that comes from 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:38.600 a place of growing up with guns and having hunters 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.639 in their families, or when they talk about, you know, 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:44.280 probably the toughest issue that I ever have to discuss 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:48.159 on air being pro life or bringing pro choice, especially 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:50.360 in the wake of the Dobs decision, that a lot 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:53.840 of people's beliefs on that is rooted in their religiosity. 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:57.159 Where I look at it as a policy issue and 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:00.120 a scientific issue, and they're telling me about. 0:18:59.880 --> 0:19:02.480 It so a personal liberty issue. 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:04.720 All of the things that we think about it versus 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:08.440 this is what I was taught in Sunday School, this 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:10.840 is what I know. I grew up in, meshed in 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:14.639 an environment that feels really differently to that. 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:18.720 That broader understanding of where people's beliefs actually come from, 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:24.359 whether it's rooted in their upbringing, lived experiences, religious teachings, 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:29.480 or culture, really shapes how we approach difficult conversations. And 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:33.879 speaking of challenging topics, one area that has sparked significant 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:39.000 debate in recent years is education, particularly around claims of 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:43.919 so called woke indoctrination in schools. From critical race theory 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:48.440 to gender identity, these topics have become political flash points. 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:52.360 The problem is most of the arguments have no basis 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:56.880 in truth. Remember the pet eating Haitian immigrants in Ohio, 0:19:57.520 --> 0:19:59.720 the claim that your son goes to school as a 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:03.439 bod and comes home as a girl, or that infamous 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:08.439 pedophile ring in the basement of the dcpiece of parlor. Yeah, 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:12.920 not true. I spoke with Miguel Cardona, the outgoing US 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:17.240 Secretary of Education, about how these issues have reached a 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:21.919 boiling point in our political discourse. But I wondered, have 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:27.280 they really taken over our nation's schools. You mentioned political ideology, 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:32.160 and I think there is also an undercurrent of anger 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:39.040 that some voters apparently feel that somehow students are being 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:44.080 indoctrinated with sort of a woke ideology, whether it's critical 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:50.080 race theory or gender identity issues. And I'm curious if 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:55.480 you could speak to that and sure separate fact from 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:58.800 fiction and what's going on in classrooms across the country. 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:02.160 You know those campaign strategies, Katie, I'm gonna be very 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:08.199 frank with you. I have less say on what my 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:11.560 children learn in the classroom now than I did when 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:15.280 I was a classroom teacher. Every position I've had before 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:19.159 Secretary of Education, I've had more authority to control the 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:23.159 curriculum than I do now. So that's all misinformation, and 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:27.600 I think it was done again an attempt to create 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:34.360 dissonance and and really get people to believe something that's 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:39.119 not accurate. So a lot of it was misinformation intended 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:41.919 to create division in our in our schools. I do 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:46.639 not control curriculum, you know. In terms of indoctrination, I 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:49.639 think the closest thing we've seen to that is we 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:53.560 have some states, you know, buying Bibles for every student 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:57.200 in their school. I mean, and I'm a Christian, I'm 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:01.000 I'm a God fearing man. I you know, was raised 0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:06.119 Christian and still practice and have strong faith. Faith has 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:08.840 really driven me so much. And I don't talk a 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:11.000 lot about it, but I know that I'm following God's 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:13.080 plan and it's not my plan. I really can get 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:16.359 into that, but I do believe in the separation of 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:19.880 a church and state. So when I see those who 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:23.000 are saying that we're indoctrinating students doing some of the 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:28.560 things that really align with indoctrination. I get baffled, you know, 0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:32.520 but I never bet against America's schools and America's educators 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.960 and parents to really separate fact from fiction and see 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:39.200 what's happening. There is no indoctrination there. You know, there's 0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:42.040 a lot of this. I was at a at an 0:22:42.080 --> 0:22:43.800 event recently and I saw a friend of mine from 0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:46.800 high school. True story. He told me that his mother 0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:50.600 believed when it was said that, you know, you send 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:53.359 your kid to school as a boy and then comes 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:55.720 back three days later as a girl, and they changed 0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:58.560 them and they didn't know why she believed that. And 0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:00.439 this person that was telling me that said, you got 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:02.399 to talk to my mom. I don't know how how 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:05.560 the hell she believes that that's that's wild, But yet 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:08.600 she believes it because she hears it being said. And 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:10.840 that to me, is more of a political strategy than 0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:14.600 it is talking about education policy. And it was done 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:19.200 to get people to believe what they hear. It's sad 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:22.879 that it's gotten to that point of such misinformation direct 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:26.960 lives being shared openly. There was a time where no 0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:31.040 party would ever stoop to that level of spreading lies 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:33.600 just to get people to believe you so that you 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:37.240 could vote a certain way. You know, I have confidence 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:41.680 that our local educators and our local parents work well 0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:44.240 together and they're going to continue to evolve education to 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:47.159 make sure that our students needs are being met. But 0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:51.480 it really it's sad in me how how much misinformation 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:54.560 was being spread with the intention of dividing our communities 0:23:55.440 --> 0:23:56.040 for a vote. 0:23:56.400 --> 0:23:59.880 Well, when it comes to sort of educating kids about 0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:04.840 gender identity, are there certain guidelines or is it decided 0:24:04.960 --> 0:24:06.840 at the state and local level. 0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:10.919 Local level, I have not had any conversations in my 0:24:11.040 --> 0:24:13.920 time as Secretary of Education of how to teach any 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:15.879 of that. As a matter of fact, I have not 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:19.359 even weighed in on that my personal beliefs or my 0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:22.920 beliefs as a lifelong educator with degrees in education. Has 0:24:23.000 --> 0:24:25.960 never been heard on an airwave about how to teach that. 0:24:27.119 --> 0:24:31.399 The misinformation Secretary Cardona refers to is of course spread 0:24:31.400 --> 0:24:35.280 online via social media, and it's a huge problem that 0:24:35.359 --> 0:24:39.119 I think is behind our hardened positions and the polarization 0:24:39.320 --> 0:24:42.320 in this country that seems to be getting worse every day, 0:24:42.840 --> 0:24:48.439 polarization that is reinforced by our intensely partisan media landscape. 0:24:49.320 --> 0:24:52.800 Michael Tamaski, the editor of the New Republic, believes the 0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:57.320 conservative side is winning. He's covered the growing influence of 0:24:57.359 --> 0:25:01.360 the right wing media industrial complex, and I asked him 0:25:01.359 --> 0:25:05.080 about his diagnosis of where we are and how we 0:25:05.160 --> 0:25:09.720 got there. Can I quote your article? If they're done, 0:25:09.760 --> 0:25:13.640 you're in fantasy land. They're not happy with the rough parody, 0:25:13.760 --> 0:25:17.639