1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome. My name is Bob left Sef. You're 2 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: listening to the Bob left Sets podcast, and today my 3 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: guest is Nathan Hubbard, businessman extraordinaire in the music business. 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: He's done a number of things. We're gonna get through 5 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: the history, but he's most known for running ticket Master, 6 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: which many people have a negative opinion of what. We'll 7 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: get deeper into that, having no fault having to do 8 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: with Nathan. And then he was head of media at 9 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: commerce at Twitter. Now he's into some new projects. Nathan, 10 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: how you do it? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. Okay, 11 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: so where were you born? I was born in Chicago, Chicago. 12 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 1: Did you live in Chicago only briefly? I really grew 13 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 1: up in Washington, d C. You grew up in Washington, DC. 14 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: And what's your father do for a living? My dad 15 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: was a was in the nonprofit world. Actually, he helped 16 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: foundations that make grants to make the world of place. Really, yeah, 17 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: and that's why I was in d C. Yeah, exactly. 18 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: And did your mother work outside the home? My mom 19 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: was a teacher for a long time. But other than that, 20 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: there were five of us and I sort of come 21 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: from a patchwork quilt of a family. There's five kids 22 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: with a bunch of different last names and all of 23 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: us from different backgrounds. So we got stuff together and 24 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: that actually drove a ton of like who I am 25 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 1: and my business interests and everything. Well, let's go back. 26 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: So your mother has been married? How many times your 27 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: father and your father has been married? How many times? 28 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: I lost I lost count? So they're not still together? No, okay, 29 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 1: So the five kids, where are you in the five? 30 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: So I'm technically in the middle, in the middle. Yeah, okay, 31 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: So how old is the oldest? How much older is 32 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: the oldest? So I have too, I have two older 33 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: older brothers. Actually, sorry, I have five siblings. So now 34 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: at six by the end of the podcast, will I 35 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: lose track? Now I have two older brothers and two 36 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: younger sisters and then a baby brother. Okay, So what 37 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: did we do? Get attached to music growing up? I 38 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: mean it was the center of everything that I did. 39 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: You know, I used it. I started writing songs at 40 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: at a really young age, and uh, I used it 41 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: kind of as an escape to sort of get through 42 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: family stuff. And so the family was chaotic, I mean 43 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: in the beginning it was, and then and then we 44 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: sort of all came together again like this patchwork quilt 45 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: and and uh and actually built a family that is 46 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: super strong and and you know continues to this day. Okay, 47 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: so you're writing songs at like early teenage years. What 48 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: believe you're gonna be rich and famous now? You know? 49 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: Even sooner? I sat next to a kid in first 50 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: grade who today is like the foremost leading academic expert 51 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: on American bluegrass musically. Yeah, and he's a teacher at 52 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: Pomona east of l A. Uh do you still see 53 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: all the time. And we sat next to each other 54 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: in first grade and we started writing songs and we 55 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: did it through our sort of pre pubescent years. We 56 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: wrote songs about frogs and ship and then uh, and 57 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 1: then in high school and then into college, we start 58 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: writing real songs. And he's just a fabulous musician, and 59 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: I you know, I had a way with words, I guess, 60 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: And so we created a duo and we started making 61 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: albums and touring around and helped to put us through college. 62 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: And okay, let's go back. So you're in school. I mean, 63 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: there's certainly things that I know about you that the 64 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: listeners will find out, But you went to Princeton. Is 65 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,399 Speaker 1: that a legacy in your family? Uh? There, my my 66 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: my brother went to Princeton. My parents were went to Northwestern. 67 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 1: But uh so so no, I hope that I got 68 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: in on my own blood, sweat and work. But you 69 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: never know, how did you decide to go to Princeton 70 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: as opposed to anywhere else? You know? It was, Um, 71 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: I just went there and loved it. I just loved 72 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: the way that it felt. And uh, um, I just 73 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: sort of it felt like a place where I could 74 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: figure out who it was that I wanted to be. 75 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: And do you still feel that way now having spent 76 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: the four years there? Yeah. I I met a bunch 77 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: of people who I still are you know, count as 78 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: my closest friends. And uh I met my wife and yeah, 79 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: it's a great place. So your wife was also a 80 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: student at Princeton. Yes, well I didn't know that. So 81 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: what did you study at Princeton? So I studied. I 82 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: was a politics major, but I really focused on South 83 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: African politics, And you know, I started my whole life 84 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: been fascinated with the ways in which people from a 85 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 1: bunch of different backgrounds calmed together. After you know, all 86 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: those different backgrounds and experiences and sometimes tragedies and come 87 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: and get together and what they do. And so that's 88 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: the story of my family, and it's also the story 89 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: of South Africa, which in nineteen ninety six, two years 90 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: out of you know, Mandela being released, was sort of 91 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: building this nascent democracy. And and so I went to 92 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,839 Speaker 1: South Africa and spent a bunch of time there doing 93 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: like hardcore on the ground thesis research. And in high 94 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: school I had worked for an organization with a woman 95 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: named Amy Beale, who was killed in South Africa a 96 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: couple of years later. Um, and so I sort of 97 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: went in her footsteps and and studied the sort of 98 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: emergence of democracy in South African, interviewed everybody from like 99 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 1: Conservative Thatcher right economists to the Communist party, you know, 100 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: trade unions to senators and so forth, and sort of 101 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: painted a picture of how, in particular the a n 102 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 1: C was I can't believe we're talking about this, sorry, 103 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: but in particular, how the a n C had made 104 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: this transition from being a uh you know, sort of 105 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: rebellious uh liberation movement into actually a governing political party. 106 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: And it turned out, just like our political parties, they 107 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: had all sorts of differences, and it was creating fissures, 108 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: which you know, as a liberation movement, those were not 109 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: ever something that could come to the surface as a 110 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 1: governing party. It was starting to affect the way that 111 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: they actually ruled the country. And it felt like being 112 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: in the presence of Jefferson and Washington and Adams and 113 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 1: Hamilton's and all of them when you were there at 114 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: that time. And but for me, it was just an 115 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: opportunity to go and study and and learn how all 116 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,799 Speaker 1: these different people come together to to make something happen UM. 117 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: And I also wrote my second album there. Okay, well 118 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: was the last time you were there? I was there 119 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: a year and a half ago. And what do you 120 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: think about what's going on now? Well, I mean I 121 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: think um, the latest uh sort of reports out of 122 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: South Africa are pretty clear, which is that their project 123 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: in post Nuremberg democracy like South Africa, from my perspective, 124 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: is the most important democracy since post Nuremberg Germany. And 125 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 1: because it is a it is a lesson in how 126 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: you know, post racial violence, hatred, awful things, um can 127 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: be reconciled and forgiven, and whether or not those people 128 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: of different backgrounds can actually come together and govern themselves 129 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: in democracy, and it was working for a while, and 130 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: it is not working right now, and they're they're just uh, 131 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: there has been Zuma's administration has just become thoroughly corrupt. 132 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: Uh And so it is not in good shape. And 133 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: it's a sad said thing, because it is so important 134 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: to how we as human beings think about governing ourselves. 135 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: To what degree do you see parallels in our own country? Well, 136 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: I think, um, I see a ton which is that, 137 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: you know, the institutions. You know, there's some there's some 138 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: quote that that was in an article that Bloomberg wrote lately, 139 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: but it basically says, you know, institutions are only as 140 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: strong as as the character of the people who are 141 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: running them. And and in the case of South Africa, 142 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: the character that people running those institutions has has sort 143 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: of fallen by the wayside, and there's a you know, 144 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: massive population in Africa that's suffering because of that. So 145 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: you're in college. We all have to study something in 146 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: college to graduate. Did you anticipate having a future in 147 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: that field? No, I didn't. I really needed something to 148 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: do with my summer while I'm my friends went to 149 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: work at banks and consulting firms, because at that point, 150 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: you know, I would we were. We'd made a couple 151 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: of albums with with we got named John Aalaysia, who 152 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: had produced Dave Matthews band. He did John Mayer's first record, 153 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: Room for Squares, he did Jason Mraz and a lot 154 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: of folks. So we'd made we'd made our second record 155 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: with him, and I was just trying to get passing 156 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: grades in college so I could figure out how to 157 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: how to write songs and play music. Okay, so the 158 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: name of the act was you two. I've seen them, 159 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: I've heard of them. Well, so this is the problem. 160 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:32,959 Speaker 1: When you meet a kid in first grade and you 161 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: sit next to each other, you create a band. Uh, 162 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: you usually funk up the name. And so my middle 163 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: name is Church. His last name is Rockwell. So the 164 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: band was called Rockwell Church, which was great until we 165 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 1: got a record deal and everybody started calling asking who 166 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: the hot young Christian band was, and radio had hard 167 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: decisions to make about whether to play you know, suburban 168 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 1: woosy acoustic rock and pretend it was Christian or not. 169 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 1: So Okay, so when you're in high school and it's 170 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: already rock old Church are you gigging at high school? Yeah, 171 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: well we played, we had we had a couple of 172 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: bands that we played with our with our classmates. We 173 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: didn't really play shows until college. When we got into college. 174 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: He went to Haverford down the road and from Princeton, 175 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: and so we would go to the Fez in New 176 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: York City or the biterand in New York City would 177 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: go to teena Angel and Philadelphia or you know, back 178 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: to some of our old stomping grounds in d C. 179 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: And play shows. And then we we'd also you know, 180 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,079 Speaker 1: play a bunch of schools and just like you know, 181 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: we sort of followed the map of the day Matthews band. 182 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: That's why I ended up obviously working for Corner Cap 183 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: Sean and and love him to death, sort of watched 184 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: his model and how he nurtured those bands and um 185 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: and and that was that was how we did it. 186 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: And were you making any money? Yeah, you know, we 187 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: ended up doing okay, you know, uh again, when you 188 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: focus on touring, it's it's a great way to go. 189 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,439 Speaker 1: And and was there a manager and agent? Yeah, the 190 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: Corns red Light Management to care of us. Really. Yeah. 191 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: So what year did you graduate from college? Uh, so 192 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: Dave Matthews man had already made Dave Matthews Band was 193 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: taking off right sort of as we were entering college, 194 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: and uh, and John Elisia connected us with the Red 195 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: Light guys and and and a sweet wonderful man named 196 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: Chris ted Selly took us on his management client and 197 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: sort of shepherded us through that that that process. And 198 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: so while you're in college, this is happening. Yeah, we were. 199 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: We were out gigging on on weekends a lot. And uh, 200 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: you know, we put out I think we put out 201 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: to yeah, two of our albums while we were in 202 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: college and um, selling them out of the back of 203 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: our you know, of our dorm rooms and uh and 204 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: doing it well. Were you famous on campus as the musician? 205 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: I don't know that. Nobody's famous at Princeton the uh, 206 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: the nuclear physicists are famous at Princeton. But but you know, 207 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: we had a good thing going where we could go. 208 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: Played a couple hundred people, um in most of the 209 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: you know, major towns on the East coast, and we 210 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 1: ended up when graduated, playing a lot of schools sort 211 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: of west and almost every state we played in. Uh. 212 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: And so we've been do you enjoy it. I loved it. 213 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: They loved the road and every that I loved everything 214 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: about it. I I mean, what's wrong with turning around with 215 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: your best friend and meeting people? And you know, um 216 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: an underappreciated thing about about gigging is you get to 217 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: see all parts of the country. You get to meet 218 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: people in the middle of Utah, you get to go 219 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: play pulled pork barbecue at the University of Western Alabama, 220 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: and and you know, you understand how the sort of 221 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: cultures match up and how they flow and driving it 222 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: is so important because when you fly in you don't 223 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: really see how not only sort of topography changes as 224 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: you drive across the land, but the people change and 225 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 1: sort of how they flow and how those cultures pass 226 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: and um. So it was a great learning experience for me, 227 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: you know, sort of consistent with understanding how people of 228 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: all these different backgrounds get together to to to make 229 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: a moment. Well, yeah, it's fascinating you say that because 230 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: in light of the election, you're reading the mainstream media 231 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: and you realize, other than the people on the opinion page, 232 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: they don't interface with any of these people all day long. 233 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: I'm writing about Paul takes I'm hearing from people across 234 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: the spectrum. So when you go to these places, you 235 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: learn something that a lot of the Bloviators on television 236 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,839 Speaker 1: and in print really have no idea of. Yeah, I mean, look, 237 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: Zuckerberg took a lot of ship for traveling state to state. 238 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: But if you don't go and spend your time there 239 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: and and dig in, I don't know how you you know, 240 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 1: I don't know how you can pretend to understand who 241 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: who people are, whether you're in whether you live in 242 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: Alabama and you don't go to Los Angeles, you live 243 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles and you don't go to Alabama, it 244 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: sort of creates the same set issues. So you're pursuing 245 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 1: the dream in your mind, you're gonna hang in there 246 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: as long as it takes to make it, or well, yeah, 247 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: we're gonna hang in there as long as it takes, 248 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: and and uh, and keep writing songs and and keep 249 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: playing and um, you know, we did it for a 250 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: couple of years. We end up making five albums. Um. 251 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: But there's a time when he and I are driving 252 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: down the back roads of Iowa headed to a gig 253 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: in the fall about this time of year. It's gorgeous 254 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: and Iowa. Everything turns golden and we're head to do 255 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: gig and he turns to me hours on the road 256 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: where we don't and say ship to each other. You're 257 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: driving an suv or whatever. And he turns to me 258 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: and goes, my dad's gonna kill me if I don't 259 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: go to grad school. I was like, oh God, I 260 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 1: gotta figure out what I'm gonna do with the rest 261 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: of my life. And uh, you know, one thing that 262 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: another we pivoted. I we kept playing for a couple 263 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: of years after that. Really, yeah, so I picked up 264 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: with a startup in San Francisco. Before you do that. 265 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: As I said, I didn't know until this conversation that 266 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 1: the guy is now a bluegrass expert. So what did 267 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: he go to graduate school in? So? So he went 268 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: to he went to to get his PhD in music 269 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: and and so, uh he went to University Chicago. And 270 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: while he was at University of Chicago, I was at 271 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: the startup that I'll tell you about. And and we 272 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: would still hop on the plane and fly to Philadelphia 273 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: and play absolutely and and and keep doing it. Um, 274 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: so you're at this startup, tell me about that. You know? 275 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: It was like Nielsen is to consumer package because this 276 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: company was to wireless mobile data, and so it was 277 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: the first come funny that really was helping the CEO 278 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: and CMO of a ten t year Verizon measure their 279 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: business and make decisions based on But how did you 280 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: look up with this company? I had a friend who 281 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: was starting it in San Francisco, and I looked at 282 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: what they were doing and it looked boring as hell. 283 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: It looked awful. But I looked at it and said, 284 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: you know, there's a massive internet boom happening in San 285 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: Francisco right now. I'm gonna learn a ton and I'm 286 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: gonna go for it. And I don't know if this 287 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: is going to be two months or you know, two decades, 288 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: but I'm gonna go for it. And just stopping for 289 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: a second, you met your wife in Princeton. When you're 290 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: gigging on the road whatever, you're maintaining a relationship, I mean, 291 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: as best as you can when you're on the road. Yeah, 292 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: And what was she doing at that time? She was 293 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: a management consultant. Okay, so you moved to San Francisco. 294 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: You gotta work for the start up and uh and 295 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: I did three years there. I got an awesome business education. 296 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: We grew from probably six people to couple hundred and um, 297 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: and I just could not get the desire to be 298 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: in the business of music out of my heart. And um. 299 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: So that company eventually got bought by Nielsen and and 300 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: did really well and not too long after I left, 301 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: and and I learned a ton about mobile and tech 302 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: and data and um, you know, things that I ended 303 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: up using even you know, when I was a ticketmaster 304 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: and Twitter for sure. Did you have any stock in 305 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: the company? Oh yeah, absolutely, like everything, like like every 306 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: person do well on the sale and did okay? I did? 307 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: Yeah for for me at that age, right, yeah, for 308 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: me at that age, it was great and and I 309 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: never thought it would amount to anything. But but that 310 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: was a gift, just uh, you know, serendipitous happenstance. But 311 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: but I really, I really wanted to be involved in music. 312 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: And so I went back to business school. And because 313 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: it just felt like again you asked me why I 314 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: went to prison, I went to business school because it 315 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: felt like two years to figure out how to pivot 316 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: and and to learn some things that again my friends 317 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: who had gone and gotten banking and consulting education had 318 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: probably picked up some of the basics UM, and that 319 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: hopefully that skill set would give me some leg up 320 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: in the business. Okay, so you felt you actually that's 321 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: why I went to law schools. You're thinking, you go 322 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: to business school and then you figure out your place 323 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: in the music business. Absolutely, Now you went to Stanford. 324 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: How did you decide to go to Stanford? Uh? You know, 325 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: I felt like, uh, that school. You know, I've since 326 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: done a lot of board work for them and spent 327 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: I'm a big advocate, so I'm super biased. But that 328 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: school does not just sort of teach the X and os. 329 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: It teaches xs and os. It teaches you how to 330 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: uh manage and lead people and and it teaches you 331 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: how to understand yourself to be sort of the best 332 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: leader that you can be. And Stanford was also at 333 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: the sort of heart of a bunch of the dot 334 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: com things that were happening at the time and UM, 335 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: and so it just felt like a place that that 336 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: was going to be supportive of me as a sort 337 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: of non for aditional MBA candidate, you know, songwriter guy 338 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: who also had been at a startup UM. But a 339 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: place that that that could welcome me and teach me 340 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 1: and make me better. So, but to my understanding, it's 341 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: not my area of expertise. Stanford has a slightly different 342 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: model than a lot of these other business schools that 343 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: there's smaller groups and you stay within a group. Yeah, 344 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: it's it's a much smaller school overall. And uh, and 345 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: you stay with your class. Most business schools they sort 346 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 1: of divide you up into sections. Stanford here with your 347 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: whole class and and so that's an opportunity to get 348 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: to know three sixty people at the time, really really well. 349 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: And these are people who go off and do amazing things, 350 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: from you know, steel mills and in Argentina to you know, 351 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: oil business in Russia to you know, uh, startups in 352 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: the valley. Now to what degree that those relationships continue 353 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: to pay dividends for you? Uh, they continue to this day. 354 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 1: I mean you know that there's a there's a great 355 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: network of Stanford Business school people all over the world 356 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: and all in almost all industries. Um, candidly, the only 357 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,360 Speaker 1: the only place didn't help me was in music. Um Um, 358 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: I think there were no graduates in the music field. 359 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: There weren't. There weren't and um and that was okay 360 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: because it actually, you know, I think probably at the 361 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: end of the day, it was a nice little brand 362 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 1: that gave me a leg up and an interest in 363 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: some places and gives you that sort of validation. But um, 364 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: but certainly the education gave me a lot that I 365 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: used in every single thing I've done in business sense. 366 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: So would you recommend people today to get an mp Yeah, 367 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,479 Speaker 1: I do. I I'm I am not. I am not 368 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: in the camp that says you should drop out now, 369 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: I don't recommend that people go get any m b A. 370 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 1: And what you're seeing right now is the drying up 371 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 1: of a lot of those programs. They're just having problem 372 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: feeling a two year education in some schools because the 373 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: opportunity cost of going to school x versus taking those 374 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 1: two years if you know what you're gonna do and 375 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: going and starting a company is not there. Um. I 376 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: do think that the program and the ideas that you 377 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: know an MBA program like Stanford each is are super 378 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:02,880 Speaker 1: universal because at the end of the day, it's shifting 379 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: more from here's how you um you know, here's how 380 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: how you do accounting, and here's how you do statistics. 381 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: It's moving more to here's how you understand yourself to 382 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: know how you influence people and read other people and 383 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: motivate them and give them candid feedback and lead them. 384 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: And that's really the value of an NBA, especially for 385 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: a lot of people who have been management consultants and 386 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: bankers taking orders. So in between your first and second 387 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: years of business school, during the summer, what do you do? 388 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: I moved to New York City and I worked for 389 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,959 Speaker 1: Michael McDonald at a t O Records. Uh, Dave Gray's 390 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: album has come out, and I have no official job, 391 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: and I just show up and start building spreadsheets thanks 392 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 1: to my UM Excel class that I took a Stanford 393 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: in my first year, and start building spreadsheets to help 394 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: them build a little bit of a predictive model around 395 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: what each artists they're gonna sign, how well that artist's 396 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: album is going to sell based on past history, and 397 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: how much money we were investing in marketing and all 398 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 1: these things. So I was kind of making it up 399 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,959 Speaker 1: as I went along. I'm really just interested in jumping 400 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: in and figuring out how to help. And this is 401 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: the turn of the century. To what degree are the 402 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: people surrounding you at that time interested in data? Um, well, 403 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: you know, a couple of years later, I went to 404 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: the Aspen conference and I met you there and I 405 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,719 Speaker 1: think I made a case that that we would be 406 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: able to use data to to better predict the songs 407 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: that people liked, and you blew me up in front 408 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: of everybody. So at that point in time, I don't 409 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 1: think there was a whole lot of interest in data. 410 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: Obviously I made a big impact. I'm sorry about that. 411 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: Moving right along, you graduate from Stanford and then what's 412 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 1: your next step? So, uh well, I called the folks 413 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 1: he used to manage me, and uh I called Corn. 414 00:20:55,320 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 1: And Corn at the time was, you know, expanding his 415 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 1: business is pretty rapidly. He was growing his management company 416 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: from basically Dave and Us and a few others to 417 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: you know, the behemoth that it is today. He had 418 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: the record label, he had, you know, a whole bunch 419 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: of business and festival business, and he had this little 420 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: business called Music Today that was doing the online stores 421 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: for just about every band you'd ever heard of. Who 422 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,719 Speaker 1: idea was that Corn's idea? Originally? Yes, it was. You know, 423 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: Corn is a student of the Grateful Dead, and he 424 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: watched how they ran their business and understood the internet 425 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: and the power of the Internet and basically took the 426 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: model that was not just hey, let's have the band 427 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 1: tour every year. Um, but you know, he understands the 428 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: fan experience and so he said, we can also take 429 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: that amazing merchandising organization that that the Grateful Dead has 430 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 1: and we can move that online and so um, he 431 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: had a huge one going with Dave Matthews Band. And 432 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: not unlike Amazon Web Service is he understood that he 433 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: could build a business that basically scaled up his infrastructure 434 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: that it took to support the Dave Matthews band and 435 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: do online stores for just about every band. And that 436 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 1: company at the time was not interesting to me in 437 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,439 Speaker 1: any way, shape or form. I moved to Charlottesville, Virginia 438 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 1: to go work with Corn and and thought, well, I'll 439 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,479 Speaker 1: get to manage some bands and I'll get to, you know, 440 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: work on the record label. And um, Corn of course, 441 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 1: in his wisdom, had better ideas. And you know, the 442 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: truth is, a month into me being down there, it 443 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: was clear that music today was an amazing asset that 444 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: just needed a little bit more focus and attention and 445 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: and and maybe a little bit of um, you know, 446 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: maybe a little bit of a bit of leadership and 447 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: sort of full time, although there were some great people there, 448 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: but um, but I went over to Music Today and 449 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: I worked at A Corn's office, But I spent almost 450 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: all my time looking at music today and figuring out 451 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: how to take it from something that was it could 452 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: be to a uh to a realize said, so, how 453 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 1: long do you work at Music Today until it's ultimately 454 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: sold to Live Nation? So I think I was there 455 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 1: for about two two and a half years. And how 456 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: what is the decision process to sell it to Live Nation? Well, um, 457 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: you know, Michael had taken over Live Nation, you know, 458 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: not not not yeah, not long there before, and I 459 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: flew out to Los Angeles to watch him speak I 460 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 1: think at the poll Star convention, and uh, you know, 461 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: he gave a just super inspiring presentation on you know, 462 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: how his vision was to connect artists and fans. And 463 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: I walked out and called Corn said, I think Michael 464 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 1: Repino is gonna buy music today, and and we sold 465 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 1: it to him for the end of the year. Now, 466 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: just jumping forward, Live Nation has now sold music today itself. 467 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: So what's the status of music today? You know, I 468 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: don't know the answer to that. Actually, um, I think 469 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: Corn Corn, to my knowledge I think he brought it back, 470 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: and um, you know he's I never I never doubt 471 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 1: Korn's business decision. He's always got something up his sleeves. So, um, 472 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: you know that asset, though, played a played a really 473 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: important role through the course of a lot of things 474 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 1: that we did at Live Nation, including launching the competitor 475 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: to Ticketmaster that ultimately forced the merger with Live Nation 476 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: or with the Ticketmaster. Okay, so you are there at 477 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,719 Speaker 1: Music Today, you sell it to Live Nation. You know 478 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: that you're gonna go Live Nation as part of that deal. Yeah, 479 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: I think that was something that that we had spoken 480 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: about with Michael and gotten Corn's blessing. Uh you know, again, 481 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: to his credit, he was super supportive of me. And 482 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: so moved from Charlottesville to to Los Angeles. And how 483 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: did you end up running Ticketmaster? Well, you know, look, um, 484 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: when I moved out, Michael understood that his contract with 485 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: Ticketmaster was expiring in in a short you know, year 486 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: and a half or something, and um, he knew that 487 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: he wanted to control ticketing, and so he uh convinced 488 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: me to go build that build a competitor and um, 489 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: and so in a very very short period of time, 490 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 1: we from scratch built up a competitor to Ticketmaster that 491 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: was going to take over Live Nations tickets, and we 492 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: ultimately signed a deal with SMG and others that that 493 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: I think built up a real competitive threat. And um, 494 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 1: I think that as much as anything, was a big 495 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: forcing function for the merger. Now. But if we go 496 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: back in history to that time proximately ten years ago, 497 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: did it work? You know, well, I know it launched 498 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: in the issues of sustainability, but did the ticket did 499 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: the Live Nation competitor Ticketmaster actually work? Well? So the 500 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 1: answer is yes, we did the Lamp theater season on it. 501 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: If that's the if that's the metric. Uh. Did we 502 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: get what we wanted from the company that we licensed 503 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: software from, No, and that was proven out through arbitration 504 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: everything else. So, UM, I think we did. The team 505 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: that the team that was behind getting that thing off 506 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: the ground. That was the hardest year of my life 507 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: by a mile. Uh. We didn't sleep well, and you know, 508 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: were all the physical burdens of stress that you hear 509 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: about when you start up a company. It was the 510 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: scariest thing because we knew on January first, two thousand 511 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 1: and nine, that this thing was going to go live 512 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: and either you know, a billion dollar plus business was 513 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 1: going to go into the ground or it was going 514 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 1: to take off and it was gonna work. And and 515 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: it worked enough for us to uh, you know, to 516 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: do the bare minimum and get get get those tickets sold. Now, 517 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,719 Speaker 1: the company that you're referencing, what assets did they not 518 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: give you? So it didn't work. I don't even want 519 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: to go go into that. What I can tell you 520 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: is that, uh is that we had we had heroic 521 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: work to do to to get the app theater season 522 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 1: up and running and going. And it was it was 523 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: by the by the amazing work of that team that 524 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: we were able to keep the walls up and keep 525 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: the business going. So the merger happens, how do you 526 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: end up running Ticketmaster? Well, I think, uh, you know, 527 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: Music Today had been doing a lot of fan club ticketing, 528 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: uh and you know, we'd built up a competitor really 529 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: thinking about the soft underbellies that we saw at Ticketmaster 530 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: at the time, and so UM, it was pretty clear 531 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 1: in the moment that um that you know, the Ticketmaster 532 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: needed a new leadership. You know, I don't know the 533 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: numbers totally right, but before the merger, you know, Ticketmaster 534 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: lost maybe a third of its IBATA over just a 535 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: short number of years, and so there was definitely a 536 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: need for culture change and probably strategy change. And UM, 537 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: I think we were you know, Michael and I were 538 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: lined around around the way to to do that and uh, 539 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: but it needed a leader and and so he asked 540 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: me to go do that. He gave me that opportunity. Okay, 541 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 1: So what was your biggest challenge once you actually were 542 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:12,880 Speaker 1: placed in that role? Well, UM, biggest challenge you had. 543 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 1: You had a really big cultural challenge. You had you 544 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: had a company that uh that probably didn't believe in 545 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: itself um at the time. UM. And and you had 546 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: a you had a client challenge, which is that you know, 547 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: as has been well documented, I think UM, taking Master 548 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: probably had underinvested in technology at the time. And you 549 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: know that's changed dramatically since then. But at the time 550 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: and UM, and those two things together meant that you know, 551 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: you'd lost business over the last couple of years, you 552 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: had probably demoralized staff, and you probably had some people 553 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: who weren't right for the business there anymore. UM. And 554 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: you know, you had obviously the people joke about the 555 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: brand of taking Yes, at the time it was it 556 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: was not thought highly of. But that was the least 557 00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: of the problems that the company had. I mean that 558 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: on the company had was how do you continue to 559 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: your in a lot of ways, your marketplace business. You've 560 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: got consumers on one end and you've got supply on 561 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: the other end. Well, this is a supply driven business, 562 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: ticketing is, and uh, the question was how do we 563 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: hang on to supply through that merger. A lot of 564 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: people worried about what that meant for them, you know, 565 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: Live Nation, Ticketmaster coming together, and so we had a 566 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: whole lot of ballet dancing to do to reassure clients 567 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: that this was going to be great for them, and 568 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: and and most importantly show them a vision for where 569 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: we're going to go forward. Hey it's Bob left Sets. 570 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: I thank you for your time. Welcome to my new podcast, 571 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: the Bob left Sets Podcast. Remember to subscribe I've tuned 572 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: in iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, we're 573 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: back with Nathan Hubbard, the ticketing Expert. And there are 574 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: a number of issues, number of challenges that are facing 575 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: the concert business today. Let's stick into the weeds a 576 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: little bit on ticketing because you're the big ex it 577 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: on this. You stated earlier that Live Nation wanted to 578 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: have its own ticketing business inside the business, it's concerned, 579 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: it's considered this point the only money is in ticketing. 580 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: Can you explain that to our listeners? Well, I don't 581 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: know if I agree with that. Okay, start with what 582 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: you mean. Look, let's let's just go back to to 583 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: you know, on the Live Nation side. And I don't 584 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: I don't need to comment on this, but but but 585 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: you know, Michael had the vision which he understood the 586 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: power of content, and he understands understood from the beginning 587 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: if he could aggregate a bunch of content and pay 588 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: the artist as much as possible, that he would find 589 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: other ways to make up that money. And and and 590 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: a lot of that was sponsorship from his background, and 591 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: you know, turned out a lot of that was going 592 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: to be ticketing too. And there's a lot of other 593 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: ways that that that I'm sure that they're inventing. So 594 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: so uh, you know that said that was also in 595 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: a moment right when the merger happened, you know, in 596 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: two thousand nine. That's in a moment when the headlines 597 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: about what's happening in the record of music industry are 598 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: are as bad as they can be, right, And revenues 599 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: have gone with and artists go from making their money 600 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: from from from their albums, from from the road to 601 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: you know the inverse at best um and so so 602 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: there was a lot of money in touring. It just 603 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: depended on what part of the value chain you were in. Okay, okay, 604 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: but let's explain, because Ticketmaster, generally speaking is hated. Explain 605 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: what ticket masters function is and how the money is 606 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: split up, how ticket Masters make steals with buildings, and 607 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: how the the ticket fees, how that comes in, just 608 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: in terms of explaining that because a lot of people 609 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: don't understand it. Yeah, I mean, look, I take issue 610 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: with your hated thing UH at this point in time, 611 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: I'm proud of what they've done since then. But I 612 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: will I will give you the basic layout, right. The 613 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: basic layout is this. You know, Ticketmaster is is a 614 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: software platform that UH signs venues and UH distributes the 615 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: tickets to the fans. And what you're really asking me 616 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: what that question is, what's up with the fees? I 617 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: think and and I think that that's one of the 618 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: most Look, I spent a lot of time when I 619 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: was there and uh, you know, helping to try to 620 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: educate the world about what those fees are about. And um, 621 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: you know, through time they became you know, the economics 622 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: of the business are such that the artist takes a 623 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: really big percentage of the price of the ticket, the 624 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: face value of the ticket, and the fee became away 625 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: for other parties in the value chain to make money 626 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: on the concert, whether that was the venue or the 627 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: promoter or yes, the ticketing company. Also let's insert here 628 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,719 Speaker 1: that the artist had a percentage of the orall income 629 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: but could not commission the fees. That was a big 630 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: driver of the creation of the phase. Yeah, that's right, 631 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: there was kept outside of the deal, right, and so 632 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: needless to say they got bigger through time. Um, but 633 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: I think listen, you know, Ticketmaster has you know, even 634 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: to this day, there's a ton of transparency behind their 635 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: financials because their public company, so you can see what 636 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: their margins look like, you can see how much money 637 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 1: they make. And I think at the end of the day, 638 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: what's massively misunderstood is most of that feed does not 639 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: go to Ticketmaster. Most of that fee goes to other 640 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: parties in the value chain. In a lot of cases 641 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: of the venue um and they use that to make 642 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: money because so much of the face value and sometimes 643 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: more than the face value of the ticket, as you know, 644 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 1: in the live business, is going to the artist. And 645 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: what and how many cases does the artists participate in 646 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: that fee? You know? Uh? I don't ye, I don't 647 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: think the artist really directly is participating in that fee. 648 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: But if you've got to deal you know, at a 649 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: venue where the artist is making of the gross and 650 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 1: then the artist business partners, how's that possible? Well, you know, 651 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: artist business partners are in there too, So you know, 652 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: you've got a whole bunch of other revenue streams, one 653 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: of which is fees. There's beer and popcorn and parking 654 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: and all these other things that that that that make 655 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: up how that artist gets paid in that way. Okay, 656 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: going on to a couple of other issues. Some people 657 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: might say, Hey, I have a fee for these concert tickets, 658 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:31,879 Speaker 1: but there's no feet when I buy a Dodger ticket 659 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: a sporting event. Why is that? That's one of the 660 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 1: weird artifacts of the of the business. Right in the 661 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: same arena you can go to to to to uh, 662 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: you can be a season ticket holder and pay no fees, 663 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 1: and if you go to another event, you're going to 664 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: pay the fees. That um, as you referenced earlier, can 665 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: sometimes frustrate people because they don't understand them to say 666 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: the least um and and so the point there is 667 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 1: just we're in a world where uh, concert fans are 668 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: subsidizing sports fans. And while there is some overlap, but well, 669 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: well it's not complete. Well go a little bit slower 670 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 1: so my audience can understand in what way are they 671 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,880 Speaker 1: subsidizing them? Well, so the ticketing company has got to 672 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 1: make their money, right, The ticketing company gets paid, as 673 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,879 Speaker 1: do a bunch of other players in the value chaine 674 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: the venue. Okay, but but let's go back to the 675 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: beginning here. Let's assume my own arena. I choose a 676 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: ticketing partner and it's an exclusive deal. That's right in 677 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: the u S. It is okay, and money is it 678 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,800 Speaker 1: changes hands when I signed that deal. No. Generally, the 679 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,320 Speaker 1: way that it works is that is that the ticketing 680 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: company gets paid uh percentage of that service fee. It's 681 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: a lot less. I'm not trying to say let's say, uh, 682 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: I own arena X and I make a deal. Let's 683 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 1: just say with ticket Master. When I sign up for 684 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: three years, this ticket Master either write me a check 685 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: or guarantee me income. Look not to speak generally. Let 686 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: me speak generally about it and not specifically about Ticketmaster, 687 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: because I'm aware of, you know, the practice of a 688 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: bunch of businesses generally speaking. The way that it works 689 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: is you do this is oversimplifying it, but we do 690 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: a deal and uh, yeah, you sign up for some term. 691 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 1: Pretend it's three to five years or something, and uh, 692 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: I sell those tickets and there's a fee on those tickets, 693 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: and we split that fee and I get as a ticketer, 694 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 1: I get a small percentage of that. You, as the venue, 695 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: get a larger percentage of that. And then the venue 696 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: sometimes goes and splits that fee with his partner, whether 697 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: that's promoter, artist or you know, whoever, sports team, whoever 698 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: it is. Isn't that okay? But there are a number 699 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: of ticketing options. How does the venue decide which one 700 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: to go with? They'll put out an RFP and everybody 701 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,439 Speaker 1: will come and bid and do a dog and pony show, 702 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: and they'll make decisions about what's best for them. But 703 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: but the key there is that those contracts and this 704 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: is again ticketing platform a stick. Generally charge fees on 705 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: individual events and individual game tickets in sports, but don't 706 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 1: charge fees on season tickets. Well, in a world where 707 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: most of the tickets for a sporting event are sold 708 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: as season tickets, that means that you make a heck 709 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: of a lot less off fees then on a on 710 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: a game than you do when the circus came to town, 711 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: or a concert or you know, wrestling or whatever it 712 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 1: is in the building. Which is to say that those 713 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,919 Speaker 1: fans who are going to those non sport events pay 714 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: a fee that subsidizes a lot of the fans who 715 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 1: come to see a sporting event. Well, as I say, 716 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: that's an historic fact, just like uh, we talk about 717 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: certain things with phone calls or services in our cars 718 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 1: that don't exist anymore. Question is well that continue to 719 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 1: be the case or do you foresee some reckoning down 720 00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 1: the road. Well, I think the sophistication level of owners 721 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,320 Speaker 1: of these of these venues is increasing. Right, You've got 722 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 1: really smart people who are invested in the whole building, 723 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: and so there they know that they're competing against you 724 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: sitting at home on your couch and watching a game 725 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: on TV or or you know, not coming out to 726 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: the event. And so I think as they look holistically 727 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: at their business, one of the things they will think 728 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,320 Speaker 1: about is how can we get somebody to convert more easily, 729 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 1: just like again Amazon does as they think about a 730 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: fan coming through their purchase funnel. So uh so as 731 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,719 Speaker 1: they look at that problem, if they look at the 732 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: fees as a blocker, Um again, you know, the last 733 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: thing that we wanted a ticketmaster, that I wanted, I'll 734 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: just speak for myself, was you know, I hated the 735 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 1: fees because because we got blamed for m and we 736 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:48,760 Speaker 1: didn't even make all of it. I wish I wish 737 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 1: we were able to make pocket all you know, all 738 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 1: that fee. And I'm sure every other ticketer feels that 739 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: way too. Um. You know, So it's on the venue 740 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: or the artist or the sports team to make decisions 741 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: about changing that structure. And I think that as owners 742 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 1: of those venues, who are generally now in a lot 743 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: of cases, the owner of a sports team, big ones, right, um, 744 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: might look across there, they're the entirety their business and say, 745 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 1: let's think about how we present ourselves to the fans 746 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: in a different way. And I guarantee you that the 747 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 1: ticketer will happily fall in line very quickly behind that 748 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: because it's better for their brand too. And one of 749 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: the big complaints consumers have is that they see tickets 750 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: for events online before the on sale date. What is 751 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,720 Speaker 1: going on there? Yeah, so that's in a lot of cases, 752 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,320 Speaker 1: that's speculative ticketing, and that UM. Frankly, we talked a 753 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: lot about issues in the industry now that UM, some 754 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 1: of which have been addressed, some of which are are 755 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: sort of evolving. There's a lot of interesting solutions to them. 756 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: One of which that the big issue, a big issue 757 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: that has not been touched a speculative ticketing. And what 758 00:39:55,000 --> 00:40:00,840 Speaker 1: that effectively is is a broker will post a ticket 759 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,799 Speaker 1: to a site that he does not have, and uh, 760 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,280 Speaker 1: it will not be communicated to you that that ticket, 761 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:10,840 Speaker 1: at least it won't be communicated to you in a 762 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: in a clear way that that ticket doesn't exist. And 763 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: the broker will say something like, hey, it's you know, 764 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,279 Speaker 1: for the National Championship Collegiate National Championship game that's in 765 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 1: Atlanta this year. Um, you know, you can buy a 766 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: ticket for five thousand dollars and two tickets in you know, 767 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 1: row twenty and the broker will post that because he 768 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: knows that he if you buy those two tickets um, 769 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 1: even though he doesn't have them, he knows or he 770 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: believes that he can go into the secondary market and 771 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 1: find two tickets that are as good or better for 772 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: less than that. So he arbitrages the difference. Maybe he 773 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,919 Speaker 1: can go find those tickets for two thousand dollars each um. 774 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,720 Speaker 1: And so what that really means is that they're fishing 775 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: for suckers. They're trying to find people who are so 776 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,800 Speaker 1: anxious to go that they're willing to pay an exorbitant amount. 777 00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: And then the broker has the money in his pocket, 778 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:01,879 Speaker 1: he leaves he can go out and find those those 779 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,399 Speaker 1: tickets for less. Not not everybody does this. But there's 780 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: a couple of problems here. Number one, there's not clear 781 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: communication to the fan about about whether or not those 782 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:15,319 Speaker 1: tickets actually exist. That's not a problem, I guess. I 783 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 1: mean it is a problem because the consumer should know. 784 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,400 Speaker 1: But in practice, if the broker goes and fulfills that 785 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,800 Speaker 1: request and you get your tickets for five thousand bucks, 786 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: you know, did you get did you get? You know? 787 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:26,880 Speaker 1: Were you a sucker? Yeah? But at least you got 788 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: your tickets. Now what happens, unfortunately, is brokers. This is 789 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 1: like short selling a stock, and sometimes broke will get 790 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:39,439 Speaker 1: pinched and there's so much demand for an event that yeah, 791 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 1: maybe you bought your ticket for five thousand dollars, but 792 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: the broker can't actually buy those tickets for less than 793 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,080 Speaker 1: five thousand dollars. So he's in the hole now because 794 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 1: tickets are being priced for seven thousand dollars for the 795 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 1: National Championship game. And what happens in a lot of 796 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: those cases is broker's close up shop and disappear the 797 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 1: you know, uh, sort of bad acting brokers. There are 798 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 1: a lot of good acting brokers on guys who run 799 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 1: real businesses and have real relationships with with with customers 800 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,359 Speaker 1: and so forth. But in the speculative business, if they're 801 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,880 Speaker 1: getting pinched, they disappear. So none of these brokers ever 802 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: say I charge five thousand, but I'm gonna go out 803 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,239 Speaker 1: and buy the ticket for There may be some who 804 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 1: fill their orders in service of protecting their brand, but 805 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,440 Speaker 1: there are a lot who don't. And that's a problem 806 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:24,960 Speaker 1: for a game like a National Championship game, where somebody's 807 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 1: traveled from miles away. They show up, their tickets don't exist, 808 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 1: and they're stuck because there's so much demand that that 809 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 1: they can't actually get access to those tickets. Now. Um. Now, 810 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: you know, I think there's been some governmental interest in 811 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 1: that issue. Um, but that to me is one of 812 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:45,879 Speaker 1: the sort of hanging there's no reason why you can't 813 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 1: have a a concierge service that says, Bob, I don't 814 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,279 Speaker 1: have the tickets right now, but tell me what you want, 815 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 1: tell me what you're looking for, tell me how much 816 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: you want to spend, and I'll go find it in 817 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,440 Speaker 1: the market. That seems like a totally reasonable service. But 818 00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:01,920 Speaker 1: to offer that alongside in the same user experience as 819 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 1: tickets that supposedly do exist feels pretty misleading to me. 820 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,279 Speaker 1: And so um, that's a practice that I expect will 821 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,440 Speaker 1: be cracked down on in in you know, in in 822 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,399 Speaker 1: the kind I know there was example was at last year, 823 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,720 Speaker 1: everybody went to some big football game, they traveled, maybe 824 00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 1: not Tre Dame or something, and their tickets didn't exist. 825 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,120 Speaker 1: But what I've viewed stuff like this, it's like, you know, 826 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 1: we've talked earlier about spam email, and we talked about 827 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,120 Speaker 1: the no call list. Every day my phone rings with 828 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 1: illegal phone calls, and the government seems to be powerless 829 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,840 Speaker 1: against that. So I think you could deter this, but 830 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 1: I'm not sure you could eradicate. The solution is if 831 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,480 Speaker 1: you digitize every ticket, you know if it exists or not, 832 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,880 Speaker 1: so you can you know, you should have secondary market 833 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,239 Speaker 1: sites that can look the fan in the eye and say, yes, 834 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 1: we have the ticket, will deliver to you right now, 835 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 1: or no, this ticket does not exist. As long as 836 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: tickets are pieces of paper divorced from identity and payment 837 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,360 Speaker 1: and geolocation, you have all sorts of scurl less like 838 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:04,000 Speaker 1: you know, um, bad actors and and bad behavior that 839 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 1: can happen around that ticket. Because it's really just a 840 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 1: piece of paper. It can be photocopied ten thousand times 841 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: and sold and the first guy gets in the building 842 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,040 Speaker 1: and the rest are stuck. Right, it can be transferred 843 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,360 Speaker 1: around sort of without you know to to to again 844 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: other bad actors. If you if you actually digitize the 845 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,280 Speaker 1: access credential, you can solve a ton of those problems 846 00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,839 Speaker 1: around fraud, around the consumer experience, and and sort of 847 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 1: massively make make the user experience better. Let's go to 848 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:34,759 Speaker 1: Broadway for a second. You have the Hambletons. They give 849 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,920 Speaker 1: a certain number of tickets away in a lottery, and 850 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,160 Speaker 1: they have a certain number of tickets that are sold 851 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:44,000 Speaker 1: close to a thousand dollars. Now, in this particular case, 852 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,360 Speaker 1: we're not talking about repeat business. The play will the 853 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,760 Speaker 1: music will be on Broadway for X number of years, 854 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 1: maybe it'll be a revival ten or twenty years down 855 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 1: the road. Most people don't go more than once. Why 856 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,120 Speaker 1: not just either charged with the ticket is worth. It's 857 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:00,759 Speaker 1: not like a band that going to continue to be 858 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,440 Speaker 1: on the road for two decades. Why in that case, 859 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 1: just not make every seat in the house a fair price. Well, 860 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,120 Speaker 1: I mean you have to ask the produces that my 861 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: senses that they believe that what they have is a 862 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: very very important piece of content, and that they want 863 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: to spread it far and wide, and that they feel 864 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,080 Speaker 1: like there's one part of their mission, which is to 865 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,160 Speaker 1: make a bunch of money, but that they've made a 866 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,839 Speaker 1: shipload of money, and that that from here they're also 867 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,800 Speaker 1: interested in in educating people and bringing them in. I 868 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,480 Speaker 1: love what they're doing, and I think I think from 869 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,080 Speaker 1: an artist's perspective, By the way, there's gonna be a 870 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,000 Speaker 1: Hamilton's movie. There's a ton of Hamilton's merch people are 871 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,279 Speaker 1: going to see that thing multiple times. God knows, I've 872 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 1: taken my daughters twice. Uh, so you know they're they're uh. 873 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,120 Speaker 1: I think when you think about lifetime value of a fan, 874 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,359 Speaker 1: you start to think about distributing your inventory differently. We 875 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,880 Speaker 1: now have more interesting sets of data, more usable tools 876 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,160 Speaker 1: to flush that data through, to help you think about 877 00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,719 Speaker 1: how to distribute the inventory in some way other than 878 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,520 Speaker 1: first come, first served. Everybody go, the gun goes off, 879 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,960 Speaker 1: there's a big stampede, a bunch of people get trampled, 880 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:13,160 Speaker 1: and whoever survives gets the tickets and comes into the show. Okay, 881 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:17,360 Speaker 1: so we understand from a business standpoint why the fees exist, 882 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,919 Speaker 1: but the public can't wrap their head around these fees 883 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:22,480 Speaker 1: the same way the public has had a hard time 884 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 1: wrapping it set around streaming. I still get email people saying, hey, 885 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:27,799 Speaker 1: if I don't have a connection, I won't be able 886 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,560 Speaker 1: to stream, not knowing that you can sink files to 887 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,000 Speaker 1: your hand set with a streaming service, assuming you have 888 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,960 Speaker 1: the premium version. So is there any way to grant 889 00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:42,040 Speaker 1: transparency or to clean this up so that the person 890 00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:45,759 Speaker 1: at the end, the person buying the ticket, we'll understand 891 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,240 Speaker 1: what's going on. Yeah, I think I think the ticketing 892 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,839 Speaker 1: business has gotten better at this. We talked a lot 893 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,880 Speaker 1: about this when I was there, and and you know, 894 00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,160 Speaker 1: the fee is an extension of the ticket price. What 895 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,360 Speaker 1: we've done in the live event business, and I'm not 896 00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,520 Speaker 1: talking about ticket mester, I'm talking about just the ticketing 897 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:06,560 Speaker 1: business in general. What we've done in the live event 898 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,560 Speaker 1: business is, uh is we have sort of shipped our 899 00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:13,520 Speaker 1: order chart, which is to say, we've exposed the inner 900 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,520 Speaker 1: workings of the deal structure. Right, why should the fan know? 901 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:19,799 Speaker 1: You know, all the fan cares about is how much 902 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 1: of my hard earned money are you asking me to pay? Right, 903 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,919 Speaker 1: and you know, don't show me that it's forty bucks 904 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:27,960 Speaker 1: and then there's another twenty dollar fee on top of that. 905 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:29,759 Speaker 1: And one of the things that that we did and 906 00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,040 Speaker 1: that continues to this day, is we started showing the 907 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,279 Speaker 1: all in upfront and you can see the breakout. But 908 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:38,239 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, trying to tell the fan, 909 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,360 Speaker 1: here's how much of your money that you've got to 910 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:45,040 Speaker 1: spend to go see artist X and um, And that 911 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:49,640 Speaker 1: has a remarkable impact on a fan's happiness with the processes. 912 00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:52,319 Speaker 1: You can imagine now. You know, one of my big 913 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,239 Speaker 1: criticisms of the secondary market right now, and I'm sure 914 00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:57,960 Speaker 1: we'll get into this, is, you know, the secondary market 915 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,200 Speaker 1: is way less transparent about what those fees are. You 916 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,480 Speaker 1: can get up to the very last about to buy 917 00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:04,399 Speaker 1: it button and all of a sudden be slammed with 918 00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:07,440 Speaker 1: fees that can increase the overall price by ten fifteen 919 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:11,560 Speaker 1: sometimes of what you thought you were actually paying. And 920 00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:13,640 Speaker 1: you know, I'll leave it to I'll leave it to 921 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,520 Speaker 1: others to stop stop Hub go to an all in pricing. 922 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:20,640 Speaker 1: And then their sales went down. You know that's the 923 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:25,319 Speaker 1: sort of um, that's that's the lore. Uh. You know, 924 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:27,960 Speaker 1: I also think that their growth has slowed in a 925 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,680 Speaker 1: significant way regardless because of a whole bunch of other 926 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:35,200 Speaker 1: dynamics in the business. So sure when you um, you know, 927 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,520 Speaker 1: that's in part I think because other companies in the 928 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:44,000 Speaker 1: secondary space continued the practice of what I think is 929 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:48,040 Speaker 1: effectively tricking fans and telling them, hey, come on in 930 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,719 Speaker 1: the prices X and then it ends up being X 931 00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:54,200 Speaker 1: plus Y and lies a lot. SOUM. Did they suffer 932 00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:57,440 Speaker 1: from that? Maybe? Um, but it still feels to me 933 00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,880 Speaker 1: like an issue in the industry as a whole, which is, 934 00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,720 Speaker 1: how can we be more forthright with the fan about 935 00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:05,840 Speaker 1: how much of his or her harder money we're asking 936 00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,640 Speaker 1: them to pay. Okay, let's start. Let's start in the 937 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:14,080 Speaker 1: concert business, because there's certainly sports and other events. Why 938 00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:20,040 Speaker 1: does the secondary market exist? Well, it exists because historically 939 00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:24,279 Speaker 1: with two reasons. One does it exists because we used 940 00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,399 Speaker 1: to be really bad at pricing and and we still 941 00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:30,360 Speaker 1: don't have as much data to price the inventory as 942 00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:36,879 Speaker 1: most of the rest of retailers have. Um. And then 943 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,400 Speaker 1: I think, to a sec you know, to a lesser extent, 944 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:43,680 Speaker 1: I think the secondary market exists because, hey, being being 945 00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,759 Speaker 1: a concert promoter, being a a sports team owner is 946 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:52,160 Speaker 1: a risky business in getting people out, and brokers have 947 00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:55,080 Speaker 1: historically and to this day, um, you know, much more 948 00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,520 Speaker 1: so in sports than concerts at this point. But uh, 949 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:01,120 Speaker 1: you know, brokers have been an insurance policy, basically, a 950 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,000 Speaker 1: way to offload risk in the event that people aren't 951 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,840 Speaker 1: going to come out. Let's let's speak English year for 952 00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,000 Speaker 1: the person at home. What we're saying is that the 953 00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:14,239 Speaker 1: promoter is paying so much money for talent that they 954 00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,800 Speaker 1: are literally selling the tickets to brokers to make sure 955 00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,000 Speaker 1: that they can help meet their number. I think that 956 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:26,080 Speaker 1: that happens way more in in sports than in concerts, right, UM, 957 00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,400 Speaker 1: I think you know, just generally speaking, you know, brokers 958 00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,640 Speaker 1: are now partnered with teams UH in a lot of 959 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:37,400 Speaker 1: cases to help take some of that risk off. But 960 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,440 Speaker 1: a but a sports season is way different than a concert, right, 961 00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:41,840 Speaker 1: A sports season. You've got eighty one home games for 962 00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,160 Speaker 1: the for the Yankees. UH. As a season ticket holder, 963 00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:47,720 Speaker 1: you know, you may not come to all any one games. 964 00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,400 Speaker 1: And by the way, the Yankees might be crappy in 965 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:51,479 Speaker 1: August and you're not gonna go sit in the upper 966 00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,719 Speaker 1: decks to go watch the team play. UM. And so 967 00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,399 Speaker 1: for teams, sometimes there's an opportunity to offload a little 968 00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:00,480 Speaker 1: bit of risk that that happens, UM, and brokers are 969 00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:02,680 Speaker 1: happy to do that because the upside is that if 970 00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:06,400 Speaker 1: the Yankees are great, then as a season ticket holder, 971 00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,640 Speaker 1: you get face value access to playoff in World Series tickets. 972 00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,080 Speaker 1: And so that just happened with the Dodgers, right the Dodgers. 973 00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:15,399 Speaker 1: There are a lot of brokers who through the Okay, 974 00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,320 Speaker 1: since we're going into this, let's go a little bit slower. 975 00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:22,000 Speaker 1: The Dodgers. Dodger Stadium is the largest baseball venue. But 976 00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:26,239 Speaker 1: let's just say approximately forty tickets are on sale for 977 00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,359 Speaker 1: any baseball team. Okay, how many of those season How 978 00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,759 Speaker 1: many those tickets are sold as season tickets? How many 979 00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:34,759 Speaker 1: to the public, how many to brokers? Obviously there's no 980 00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:39,160 Speaker 1: rigid numbers, but your best estimates. Look, it's hard to 981 00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:43,080 Speaker 1: generalize because these teams take super different strategies, right they 982 00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:47,920 Speaker 1: they There's some teams that think, um, you know that 983 00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:51,200 Speaker 1: think that have trouble selling season tickets in their market, 984 00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:55,400 Speaker 1: and so they're happy to offload big chunks of their inventory, 985 00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:58,640 Speaker 1: more than fifty of their season tickets, for example, to 986 00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:04,040 Speaker 1: a broker or a series of brokers in that case. Um. 987 00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,360 Speaker 1: And then there's others who say, no, you know what 988 00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:08,440 Speaker 1: I want to UM, I want to try to sell 989 00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:12,000 Speaker 1: directly to as many consumers as I possibly can, and 990 00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,000 Speaker 1: I'm not going to use those brokers. And and so 991 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,320 Speaker 1: it really does run the gamut in the sports business 992 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:18,680 Speaker 1: right now. But there are teams who sell more than 993 00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:20,719 Speaker 1: fifty percent of their seasons he gets to brokers. Now, 994 00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,239 Speaker 1: it's important. It's important to point out any fans who 995 00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:26,040 Speaker 1: come in and who want to buy a season ticket, 996 00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,040 Speaker 1: it's there for them. It's not like you can't get 997 00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,080 Speaker 1: access to that inventory. That's the problem we've had historically 998 00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,680 Speaker 1: in the concert business, which is that, you know, the 999 00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:39,160 Speaker 1: prevalence of bots has kept, uh, kept fans from being 1000 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,239 Speaker 1: able to actually access the tickets that they want. In 1001 00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:43,799 Speaker 1: the sports business, if you want to show them buy 1002 00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:45,319 Speaker 1: a season ticket from a team, you're gonna be able 1003 00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,400 Speaker 1: to do that. It's just that, you know, in a 1004 00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:50,520 Speaker 1: market where uh, you know, there's eighty one home games 1005 00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:53,279 Speaker 1: or forty one home games for an NBA team, sometimes, 1006 00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,319 Speaker 1: uh you know, there's some markets where where there aren't 1007 00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:58,400 Speaker 1: twenty thousand people who want to go all in to 1008 00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,480 Speaker 1: spend the big money on that secondary market is accelerated 1009 00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,839 Speaker 1: that because as a fan, you know, now for a 1010 00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,280 Speaker 1: game tonight in any of your local NBA or NFL 1011 00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:11,319 Speaker 1: teams markets, you can go onto the secondary market and 1012 00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,360 Speaker 1: buy a ticket at a reasonable price for the for 1013 00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,120 Speaker 1: that game. So why am I investing in season tickets? Now? 1014 00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,279 Speaker 1: There are good answers to that, um that involved how 1015 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,040 Speaker 1: the experience on site can be, you know, really great 1016 00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:25,960 Speaker 1: and fun, and teams have invested in these venues to 1017 00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:29,279 Speaker 1: make great physical space. Uh. So that there's clubs and 1018 00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:31,920 Speaker 1: you know, food options and all these things to make 1019 00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,640 Speaker 1: it worth getting off your couch. But but but that's 1020 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,880 Speaker 1: why it happens. Okay, just to go back to your point, 1021 00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,400 Speaker 1: that you can in sports, you can buy a season 1022 00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:44,480 Speaker 1: ticket in sports. Is it like concerts where you can't 1023 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:48,200 Speaker 1: get the good seats because they're taken already by inside 1024 00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:52,439 Speaker 1: relationships or brokers. Um that's true to a certain extent, 1025 00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:54,680 Speaker 1: except that that you know, there's people who have held 1026 00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:58,520 Speaker 1: their season seats for fifty years in their families. Right, 1027 00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:00,640 Speaker 1: So it's much less that they're being sort of handed 1028 00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:02,880 Speaker 1: out to v I p s more than it is 1029 00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:05,279 Speaker 1: people have control of those seats and they hang on 1030 00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:08,720 Speaker 1: to them because because the team plays, you know, forty 1031 00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:11,160 Speaker 1: one times this season and they're coming back next year. Right. 1032 00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,520 Speaker 1: It's it's a lot different than a concert, which is 1033 00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:15,960 Speaker 1: a one off event that you may not you may 1034 00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:17,439 Speaker 1: not be able to see that artist in your town 1035 00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,640 Speaker 1: for another three for five years, if ever. Right. So, 1036 00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:25,400 Speaker 1: um so wholly different dynamics, um Uh. In terms of 1037 00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:28,960 Speaker 1: how those season seats are are distributed, It's hard to 1038 00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:32,640 Speaker 1: get a courtside seat for the Knicks because nobody's given 1039 00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:35,680 Speaker 1: those up. Um, it's you know, you can get in 1040 00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:38,200 Speaker 1: there and get a decent season seat for the Knicks 1041 00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,000 Speaker 1: if you're willing to invest the money that takes to 1042 00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:45,000 Speaker 1: to do that. And for hot games like the Yankees 1043 00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,680 Speaker 1: come to Dodger stadiums. To what degree are brokers buying 1044 00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:54,200 Speaker 1: tickets from season ticket holders in order to resell? You know, 1045 00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:56,719 Speaker 1: in sports, that happens a little bit, and basically they'll 1046 00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:00,120 Speaker 1: they'll they'll search for suckers who are willing to were 1047 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,480 Speaker 1: willing to to, you know, sell tickets for cheap. But 1048 00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:07,320 Speaker 1: mostly the dynamic in sports is brokers make decisions about 1049 00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:10,120 Speaker 1: how many season tickets they want to buy, they buy them, 1050 00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:12,400 Speaker 1: they try to basically break even through the course of 1051 00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:17,160 Speaker 1: the season, and then you know, regardless of sport, Um, 1052 00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:18,879 Speaker 1: maybe they can make a little more in football, maybe 1053 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:20,840 Speaker 1: they're can be a little more in in in basketball. 1054 00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:22,840 Speaker 1: If you know your Warrior season ticket holder right now, 1055 00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:26,600 Speaker 1: you're probably doing pretty well. Um, but you know, uh, 1056 00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,240 Speaker 1: you're holding for the playoffs because that's when the games 1057 00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:31,800 Speaker 1: get tight and the competition gets gets awesome, and people 1058 00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:33,520 Speaker 1: want to go and they're willing to pay hundreds If 1059 00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,280 Speaker 1: not thousands of dollars, right, and so so they're really 1060 00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:41,200 Speaker 1: taking a bet that and it's not just a one 1061 00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:44,840 Speaker 1: year bet. Their betting you know, Dodgers season ticket Uh, 1062 00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:48,279 Speaker 1: Dodgers brokers who bought a bunch of season tickets for 1063 00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:50,480 Speaker 1: the Dodgers were in there for years. I mean, they 1064 00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,279 Speaker 1: were betting over the last five years that the new 1065 00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:55,719 Speaker 1: ownership group was going to build a team with the 1066 00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:57,520 Speaker 1: payroll that they were spending, that was going to make 1067 00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:01,360 Speaker 1: it to the playoffs. And um and you know that 1068 00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:03,480 Speaker 1: paid off for them this year with a seven game 1069 00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:08,839 Speaker 1: World Series. Now, so you're saying that one good year 1070 00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:11,719 Speaker 1: it can make up for five break even years if that, 1071 00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,160 Speaker 1: well sure, I mean, uh, if you're basically breaking even 1072 00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,279 Speaker 1: and then you get to the playoffs and you know 1073 00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:21,120 Speaker 1: you're clearing a thousand dollars a ticket, uh, and you 1074 00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:23,880 Speaker 1: control a significant number of tickets and there's four games, 1075 00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:27,520 Speaker 1: that math adds up pretty nicely. Uh, you know, over 1076 00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:31,800 Speaker 1: the course of just a World Series. Um, so yeah, 1077 00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,200 Speaker 1: it was. Okay, Let's assume you are a ticket season 1078 00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:37,759 Speaker 1: a season ticket holdering four sports. To what degree at 1079 00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:41,320 Speaker 1: this point are the teams controlling your ability to resell 1080 00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:43,759 Speaker 1: those tickets. Yeah, they're not right now. I mean it's 1081 00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,960 Speaker 1: in the team's interests for a fan who invests that 1082 00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:48,920 Speaker 1: much in the season ticket to have liquidity and be 1083 00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,799 Speaker 1: able to resell when they can't go. So I don't 1084 00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,640 Speaker 1: I don't see teams put in many constraints on on 1085 00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:58,319 Speaker 1: their fans in that regard. Um, I mean I think 1086 00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:02,160 Speaker 1: they you know, obviously, secondary market is come in and 1087 00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,160 Speaker 1: and has various deals with the leagues and and you 1088 00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:07,719 Speaker 1: know Stubbubs got deals and you know ticket Master's gut 1089 00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:10,880 Speaker 1: deals and Sea Geeks gut deals and but but for 1090 00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:14,120 Speaker 1: the most part, I think, uh, teams are happy to 1091 00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:18,120 Speaker 1: have this. The season ticket holders invested. You know, they're 1092 00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:20,520 Speaker 1: putting their money up front, and there's a lot of 1093 00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:22,240 Speaker 1: reasons why you can't go to games. You know, my 1094 00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,680 Speaker 1: my dad was a Redskin season ticket older for thirty 1095 00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:28,880 Speaker 1: five years and uh, you know he um, at some 1096 00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:32,480 Speaker 1: point he just couldn't go to the night games anymore. Well, uh, 1097 00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:34,160 Speaker 1: he should be able to resell it. They still want 1098 00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:36,600 Speaker 1: him to have that ticket, And I just think down 1099 00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:37,960 Speaker 1: the road they want to know who that fan is 1100 00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:41,280 Speaker 1: who's actually walking in on Monday night. But okay, Um, 1101 00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:45,000 Speaker 1: but are they forcing new to use a specific reselling platform. 1102 00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:47,640 Speaker 1: I I don't see that. I don't see that much. 1103 00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,200 Speaker 1: I don't see that much. I mean, I think there's, um, 1104 00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,560 Speaker 1: there's some sort of official ones, but I'm not I'm 1105 00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:56,960 Speaker 1: not really aware and I'm probably missing something, But I'm 1106 00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:59,200 Speaker 1: not really aware of a situation which you're forced to 1107 00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:02,360 Speaker 1: only use one platform to resell. There's some situations. I 1108 00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:05,240 Speaker 1: know in Cleveland, Uh, they've got a plat. In Houston, 1109 00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:07,600 Speaker 1: they get a platform called flash seats where sometimes they 1110 00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:10,400 Speaker 1: lock it down and they force you to only resell 1111 00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:14,240 Speaker 1: the ticket to that exchange. And I think in general, 1112 00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,520 Speaker 1: for the fan, being able to resell in a bunch 1113 00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:19,840 Speaker 1: of places is generally a good thing if that's what 1114 00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:26,280 Speaker 1: they want. Um. But yeah, okay, let's witch, let's witch 1115 00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:28,840 Speaker 1: the concerts. Yeah. I've been made aware of the fact 1116 00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:32,720 Speaker 1: that if you are buying tickets to resell it concerts, 1117 00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:37,000 Speaker 1: generally you will be It's a very difficult process because 1118 00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:40,400 Speaker 1: the broker's own tickets have their algorithms. Let's say that 1119 00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:44,520 Speaker 1: if you price the ticket fifty, they'll price it at 1120 00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:47,640 Speaker 1: so they will always scoop up that money. Can you 1121 00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,160 Speaker 1: talk about that? Well, I think what you're I think 1122 00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:53,560 Speaker 1: what you're referring to is that now brokers are sharks, 1123 00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:57,440 Speaker 1: and whether it's sports or concerts, And I mean I 1124 00:58:57,480 --> 00:58:59,760 Speaker 1: say that, I say that almost admiringly, and that in 1125 00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:01,520 Speaker 1: the in that they're getting really good at how they 1126 00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:06,440 Speaker 1: price and they're sophisticated. They've written software that is interacting 1127 00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:09,000 Speaker 1: with a bunch of the secondary site API s and 1128 00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:11,960 Speaker 1: scraping a bunch of data and figuring out what is 1129 00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,800 Speaker 1: the optimal price for each ticket right now. So if 1130 00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,640 Speaker 1: your question is if I'm a regular fan and I'm 1131 00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:20,600 Speaker 1: trying to sell my ticket, um, are there going to 1132 00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:23,680 Speaker 1: be you know, I'm competing with a lot of sellers 1133 00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:26,800 Speaker 1: who have access to they have asymmetric information, They have 1134 00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:29,920 Speaker 1: better data than I do as sort of the ordinary 1135 00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:32,920 Speaker 1: fan in terms of what you know, the clearing prices 1136 00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:36,200 Speaker 1: for this ticket. Um. And yes, there's a whole bunch 1137 00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:39,680 Speaker 1: of automated software that's making pricing changes on secondary markets 1138 00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:43,280 Speaker 1: to try to match supply with demand. That said, if 1139 00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:45,040 Speaker 1: you're a fan, you can't go and you want to 1140 00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:47,120 Speaker 1: put that ticket up and sell it. You know, as 1141 00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:50,400 Speaker 1: you said earlier, UM, certainly a a broker would be 1142 00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:52,480 Speaker 1: willing to buy a ticket at a certain price if 1143 00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:55,080 Speaker 1: they know they can get a higher one. And um, 1144 00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:58,360 Speaker 1: you know I I have shows or games that I 1145 00:59:58,400 --> 00:59:59,720 Speaker 1: go to all the time where I'm just trying to 1146 00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:03,000 Speaker 1: get my money back, and the secondary market super efficient 1147 01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:06,200 Speaker 1: for that. Okay, But as I say, I've got an 1148 01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:09,000 Speaker 1: email from certain people who say I had X number 1149 01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:12,000 Speaker 1: of tickets I wanted to unload them. It's, you know, 1150 01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:14,880 Speaker 1: below face value. As I said earlier, fifty bucks, I 1151 01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:17,280 Speaker 1: put them up as soon as I go at fifty bucks, 1152 01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:22,920 Speaker 1: there's a bot that will offer the ticket marginally cheaper. Well, 1153 01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:26,240 Speaker 1: I think it depends on the supply and demand dynamics 1154 01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:29,560 Speaker 1: in that moment. If no inventory is selling, then yeah, 1155 01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:32,000 Speaker 1: the bot will likely lower the price because they're just 1156 01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:35,160 Speaker 1: trying to liquidate it. Right. If you've got some demand 1157 01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:38,919 Speaker 1: coming in, then that broker definitely doesn't want to lower 1158 01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:41,280 Speaker 1: the price because he knows that he can make a 1159 01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:43,480 Speaker 1: lot more than you, and he might buy your ticket 1160 01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:46,960 Speaker 1: from you. Well, this begs the question of how many shows? 1161 01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:50,600 Speaker 1: What is the demand for certain shows? We all know 1162 01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:53,120 Speaker 1: that there are certain there's a thin layer of shows 1163 01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:56,840 Speaker 1: where there's unbelievable demand. Yeah, okay, then on these other 1164 01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:59,760 Speaker 1: shows when ticket because we know, if you go out 1165 01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:02,640 Speaker 1: like on jay Z is on tour right now, okay, 1166 01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:05,120 Speaker 1: you want to buy a ticket in anywhere in the building, 1167 01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:09,320 Speaker 1: there are tickets available. So one would say the people 1168 01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:13,680 Speaker 1: who own those tickets were speculators, correct, if they were 1169 01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:16,880 Speaker 1: on the secondary market. Some probably, some probably were. I 1170 01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:19,480 Speaker 1: don't know the specific dynamics, but yeah, if people are 1171 01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:22,560 Speaker 1: reselling tickets, then there's probably some speculators. It's also probably 1172 01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:25,040 Speaker 1: some people who just bought. Remember we're putting tickets on 1173 01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:27,400 Speaker 1: sale now, sometimes eleven months beforehand. I don't think that 1174 01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:29,400 Speaker 1: happened the case of jay Z, but you know, there 1175 01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:31,080 Speaker 1: are some people who buy tickets. They have no idea 1176 01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:35,720 Speaker 1: what they're doing on you know, October eighteen, and time 1177 01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:37,640 Speaker 1: comes and they got to resell the tickets. So there's 1178 01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:40,240 Speaker 1: some totally legit reasons why why tickets would be resold 1179 01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:43,280 Speaker 1: in the secondary market. Like I wouldn't I wouldn't touch 1180 01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:46,600 Speaker 1: the jay Z situation other than to say, um, yeah, 1181 01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:48,840 Speaker 1: I wouldn't touch it at all. Your question is about 1182 01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:52,040 Speaker 1: is about are there is there a lot of speculative 1183 01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:55,080 Speaker 1: buying that happens in concert business. Yes, And when you 1184 01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:58,080 Speaker 1: see a lot of tickets that are um at low 1185 01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:00,920 Speaker 1: dollar value in the secondary market. Does that generally indicate 1186 01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:03,680 Speaker 1: that maybe there isn't a ton of demand? Yes? Does 1187 01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:10,600 Speaker 1: that mean that the artist isn't making a ton of money? No, because, um, 1188 01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:14,440 Speaker 1: because you can optimally price a whole bunch of great seats, 1189 01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:18,320 Speaker 1: and you know, the marginal return on pricing a ticket 1190 01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:21,080 Speaker 1: at ten bucks versus six versus twenty in the upper 1191 01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:24,200 Speaker 1: deck is generally pretty low when somebody's paying hundreds, if 1192 01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:26,120 Speaker 1: not thousands of dollars in the front. Yes, but that's 1193 01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:29,080 Speaker 1: a very inside view in terms of the business the promoter, 1194 01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,440 Speaker 1: the agent, the act, etcetera. But peep, there's a lot 1195 01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:38,960 Speaker 1: of opacity, uh to the end buyer. And the question 1196 01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:41,640 Speaker 1: is as the what do we know? It's stub hub, 1197 01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:46,000 Speaker 1: which is the giants of secondary sites. People have learned 1198 01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:48,439 Speaker 1: rather than buy the ticket a year in advance, wait 1199 01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:51,240 Speaker 1: to find out if they can actually go, and they're 1200 01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:54,600 Speaker 1: willing to pay more to get a good seat. So 1201 01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:59,000 Speaker 1: the question is does this undermine the monolith that the 1202 01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:03,240 Speaker 1: promoter at a an act have built. I don't think so. 1203 01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:05,360 Speaker 1: I just think it changes the risk curve. I mean, 1204 01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:10,320 Speaker 1: then it becomes not unlike sports, right, well over fifty 1205 01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:13,000 Speaker 1: of secondary activity at this point is happening in the 1206 01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:17,479 Speaker 1: last forty hours, and so that's just that's just that's 1207 01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:20,720 Speaker 1: fans being conditioned. That's what happens over time when fans 1208 01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:23,480 Speaker 1: know there's tickets available, So inevitably, in the last forty 1209 01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:26,600 Speaker 1: eight hours before any event, there's a staring contest between 1210 01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:29,520 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of demand that wants to go and 1211 01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,280 Speaker 1: brokers who are going, Am I going to get my 1212 01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:34,880 Speaker 1: number or not? Right? And you can always see who blinks. 1213 01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:37,320 Speaker 1: If prices hold, it means that fans are blinking, they 1214 01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:39,680 Speaker 1: want to go. If prices don't hold, it means that 1215 01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:41,800 Speaker 1: brokers are blinking and they're just trying to get you know, 1216 01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:44,320 Speaker 1: they're just trying to get their their their tickets cleared. 1217 01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:47,880 Speaker 1: So I don't think. I think what's interesting is now, 1218 01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:51,320 Speaker 1: um it gives the artist and his business partners, whether 1219 01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:53,760 Speaker 1: that's the promoter or somebody else, it gives the artist 1220 01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:57,120 Speaker 1: an interesting decision to make. Um, do I want to 1221 01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:00,360 Speaker 1: just lock in money now and put tick it's up 1222 01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:03,120 Speaker 1: for sale and be a little bit less concerned about 1223 01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:05,480 Speaker 1: exactly who's buying them and whether they get resold but 1224 01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,080 Speaker 1: I get guaranteed money and I know it's in my pocket. 1225 01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:11,360 Speaker 1: Or do I want to start to think about, um, 1226 01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:13,720 Speaker 1: challenging what an on sale is. Do I need to 1227 01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:16,280 Speaker 1: put all my tickets up front for sale, you know, 1228 01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:19,320 Speaker 1: up front eleven months out? Do I want to wait 1229 01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:21,480 Speaker 1: until I have a better sense for what the market 1230 01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:24,280 Speaker 1: looks like. Do I want to control supply a little 1231 01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:26,919 Speaker 1: bit more and release those tickets in a different way? 1232 01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:28,920 Speaker 1: I think, you know, look, I think in broad strokes, 1233 01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:33,200 Speaker 1: we can probably all agree that um that uh, you know, 1234 01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:37,400 Speaker 1: the traditional first come, first serve on sale put everything 1235 01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:40,840 Speaker 1: on sale months and months before the event probably isn't 1236 01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:45,000 Speaker 1: the most efficient way to optimize pricing in the venue. 1237 01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:49,640 Speaker 1: It is probably the best way to defray risk. But 1238 01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:53,120 Speaker 1: artists and their partners and concert promoters are getting way 1239 01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:57,360 Speaker 1: smarter about how they price the show itself, and so 1240 01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:00,640 Speaker 1: that gives them a bunch of options to maybe hang 1241 01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:04,040 Speaker 1: in there longer and wait and and and be able 1242 01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:07,520 Speaker 1: to to make sure that the product that they're selling 1243 01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:10,120 Speaker 1: is being priced at the intersection of supply and demand, 1244 01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:12,800 Speaker 1: which is what this is about. Okay, So why are 1245 01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:16,680 Speaker 1: tickets being sold a year in advance? Well, I think 1246 01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:23,640 Speaker 1: in general, Uh, my observation is that, uh, you've got 1247 01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:25,520 Speaker 1: some artists who are like, we are hot right now, 1248 01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:28,360 Speaker 1: let's put these tickets on sale and let's capitalize while 1249 01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:31,560 Speaker 1: we can because you never know. And um, that is 1250 01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:36,960 Speaker 1: basically an artist making a decision to offload risk um 1251 01:05:37,080 --> 01:05:41,320 Speaker 1: or capitalize on on you know, the state of the brand. 1252 01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:44,200 Speaker 1: Maybe that's maximizing inventory because they think they're their brand 1253 01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:47,320 Speaker 1: is going to go down. Um. I think in general 1254 01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:50,439 Speaker 1: that's about hey, let's get this, let's get this this 1255 01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:53,080 Speaker 1: uh this revenue stream locked and loaded. And you know 1256 01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:54,920 Speaker 1: it's hard it's hard to blame an artist for that 1257 01:05:55,040 --> 01:05:59,520 Speaker 1: when now their money is coming from that tour. You 1258 01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:02,920 Speaker 1: can see how that artists would say, let's make sure 1259 01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:06,520 Speaker 1: that we are locking this in and and uh and 1260 01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:08,760 Speaker 1: and if that means that I, you know, I lose 1261 01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:12,160 Speaker 1: out on five what I could have made, That's okay, 1262 01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:14,280 Speaker 1: because I'm really happy to make this money and lock 1263 01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:16,800 Speaker 1: it in. What about the float that they have the 1264 01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:21,480 Speaker 1: uh customers money for a year. Well, you know, nobody's 1265 01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:24,240 Speaker 1: nobody's forcing a fan to buy that ticket, right, So 1266 01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:28,360 Speaker 1: I think if played right, um, you can give an 1267 01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:31,520 Speaker 1: advantage to those fans who are passionate enough to do that. Well, 1268 01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:34,680 Speaker 1: I guess they're saying in the promoter's mind, to what 1269 01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:37,120 Speaker 1: degree of the tickets going on sale a year in 1270 01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:40,880 Speaker 1: advance because they could hold onto the money. Well, I'm 1271 01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:43,919 Speaker 1: not a promoter psychas to that. But when you put 1272 01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:46,360 Speaker 1: money in the bank, does it generally appreciate over time 1273 01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:48,760 Speaker 1: and you know you earn interest on it. Yes, But 1274 01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:51,560 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it's it's the consumer's decision. 1275 01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:54,480 Speaker 1: Is it worth it to me now in this moment 1276 01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:57,080 Speaker 1: to buy a ticket for a year from now? Yes? 1277 01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:00,600 Speaker 1: Or if not? Uh. Generally a fan gonna say yes 1278 01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:03,680 Speaker 1: if you're offering them a great seat at a great price. Okay, 1279 01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:07,120 Speaker 1: if you're not doing that now, fans are generally educated 1280 01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:10,000 Speaker 1: enough to know that I can wait until forty eight 1281 01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:12,560 Speaker 1: hours before the event and I'm going to get a ticket. 1282 01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:15,880 Speaker 1: That is you know, every fan, Look, every fan falls 1283 01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:18,840 Speaker 1: on a graph. Cost of seat on one, access quality 1284 01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:21,640 Speaker 1: of seat on another. Every fan is a point somewhere 1285 01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:23,520 Speaker 1: on that graph if you just go math on it, 1286 01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:27,600 Speaker 1: and so uh. You know, from a fan's perspective, the 1287 01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:31,479 Speaker 1: question is when's the best moment to get to find 1288 01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:34,360 Speaker 1: my point on that graph right, and increasingly it's becoming 1289 01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:38,160 Speaker 1: in those last forty eight hours. Now, the unique part 1290 01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:41,080 Speaker 1: of this industry is it's supply driven. There's only so 1291 01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:43,000 Speaker 1: much supply. It's not like we're going to go make 1292 01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:46,600 Speaker 1: another you know, uh, two thousand U two tickets or 1293 01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:49,720 Speaker 1: whatever it is. Um, there's only it's it's only this night, 1294 01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:54,280 Speaker 1: right and and so um. You know, with better data, 1295 01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:58,400 Speaker 1: incredibly smart tour promoters like you know are theur Vogel 1296 01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:01,360 Speaker 1: for you too, are gonna make really interesting decisions about 1297 01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:04,560 Speaker 1: how they release that supply and and and put it 1298 01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:07,840 Speaker 1: on sale. I think the gap historically has been we 1299 01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:11,400 Speaker 1: don't really have the information to price this ticket properly, 1300 01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:14,360 Speaker 1: and maybe we don't even have the distribution channels to 1301 01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:16,960 Speaker 1: reach the consumers in those in those right moments. And 1302 01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:19,840 Speaker 1: I think that's a big part of the progress that 1303 01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:22,920 Speaker 1: the industry has made over the last decade. Okay, let's 1304 01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:25,320 Speaker 1: just talk about an arena show, and I'll use the 1305 01:08:25,400 --> 01:08:28,639 Speaker 1: large arena. Let's call it twenty thousand tickets. When how 1306 01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:32,280 Speaker 1: do they actually do twenty thousand tickets? Are those available 1307 01:08:32,320 --> 01:08:36,439 Speaker 1: for sale? Well, you're asking the wrong guy, because I'm 1308 01:08:36,439 --> 01:08:40,559 Speaker 1: not a tour promoter. But but what I can uh, 1309 01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:45,639 Speaker 1: are they all available for sale? They need to sell Listen, 1310 01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:48,400 Speaker 1: there's I guess what I'm saying is just when you 1311 01:08:48,439 --> 01:08:51,479 Speaker 1: start with twenty thousand, you can chop off a couple 1312 01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:55,080 Speaker 1: of thousand for what are so called senate seat season 1313 01:08:55,120 --> 01:08:59,000 Speaker 1: ticket holders in the building, okay, and hold backs, So 1314 01:08:59,120 --> 01:09:03,280 Speaker 1: even when you go on sale, there's notts. Yeah. I 1315 01:09:03,280 --> 01:09:05,160 Speaker 1: think like the State Attorney General in New York did 1316 01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:07,360 Speaker 1: a did a sort of reveal on this about a 1317 01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:09,439 Speaker 1: year and a half or maybe two years ago, where 1318 01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:12,240 Speaker 1: they looked at a bunch of data. They they you know, 1319 01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:16,920 Speaker 1: foyed a bunch of a bunch of seat manifests and 1320 01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:19,880 Speaker 1: so forth, and and there are some situations in which, yeah, 1321 01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:22,439 Speaker 1: for for an on sale, uh you know, half of 1322 01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:25,960 Speaker 1: the half of the arena wasn't going on sale. Um. 1323 01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:30,160 Speaker 1: And I don't at the court, I don't have a 1324 01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:33,240 Speaker 1: problem with that. In principle. I think the question is 1325 01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:36,680 Speaker 1: what do we communicate to the fan about their likelihood 1326 01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:39,439 Speaker 1: of getting tickets in this moment. So let's say there's 1327 01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:41,160 Speaker 1: a certain number of people who are locked into the 1328 01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:45,280 Speaker 1: building for every event. Then for tours, there's the fan club, 1329 01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:49,800 Speaker 1: and there's also a credit card company can explain those presetts. 1330 01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:53,479 Speaker 1: So so yeah, there there are a lot of pre 1331 01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,479 Speaker 1: sale lists that are out there, whether the building has 1332 01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:59,880 Speaker 1: a deal with American Express or you know, Chase car 1333 01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:03,879 Speaker 1: and anybody who owns one of those cards gets access 1334 01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:06,679 Speaker 1: to a select pool of inventory, so they're basically fishing 1335 01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:09,639 Speaker 1: in a smaller pond. Um. The venue sometimes has its 1336 01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:12,800 Speaker 1: own list, the artist fan club sometimes has its own list, 1337 01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:17,160 Speaker 1: and those uh, you know, not unlike an Amazon Prime 1338 01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:20,880 Speaker 1: member gets benefits. Um. There are people that venues and 1339 01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:24,200 Speaker 1: artists have that they take care of because because they've 1340 01:10:24,240 --> 01:10:27,960 Speaker 1: they've achieved some sort of status, right. Um, And again 1341 01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:30,920 Speaker 1: that seems like normal business to me. What doesn't seem 1342 01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:34,280 Speaker 1: normal is the way that historically it was communicated to 1343 01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:36,920 Speaker 1: the fan about what their odds were of getting a 1344 01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:40,080 Speaker 1: ticket in the moment. And I think a lot of 1345 01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:45,360 Speaker 1: that is starting to change. Uh is starting to change. Okay, So, 1346 01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:47,320 Speaker 1: as you know, I've talked to some of these promoters. 1347 01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:49,639 Speaker 1: They can have an arena where fewer than a thousand 1348 01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:54,799 Speaker 1: tickets are available at the traditional Saturday Saturday morning on sale. 1349 01:10:55,320 --> 01:11:00,479 Speaker 1: So what we hear from the average concert goers, I 1350 01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:05,600 Speaker 1: can't get a good seat at face value. Forget that 1351 01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:08,439 Speaker 1: a number of concert goes are delusional because everyone believes 1352 01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:09,880 Speaker 1: they should be able to sit in the front row 1353 01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:14,600 Speaker 1: for free price. Um, what is the best way to 1354 01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:18,639 Speaker 1: tackle the problem of getting the so called fan into 1355 01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:22,880 Speaker 1: the seat at whatever the price is? Yeah, I mean 1356 01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:24,880 Speaker 1: you're right that. When there's two million people who want 1357 01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:27,679 Speaker 1: twenty thousand seats, and by the way, those two million 1358 01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:29,920 Speaker 1: people all want the first twenty rows, you're gonna have 1359 01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:33,880 Speaker 1: you know, one million, eighty thousand disappointed people, and then 1360 01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:38,000 Speaker 1: another you know, eighteen thousand disappointed people who did get 1361 01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:40,320 Speaker 1: exit tickets. So it's a tough business in that regard. 1362 01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:43,719 Speaker 1: There's two weights. Look, I think about solving the problem 1363 01:11:43,880 --> 01:11:48,479 Speaker 1: like the um like the animated uh lady in the 1364 01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:50,719 Speaker 1: Tramp movie where the two dogs are eating the piece 1365 01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:52,360 Speaker 1: of pasta all the way and they meet in the middle. 1366 01:11:52,479 --> 01:11:55,680 Speaker 1: There's two sides to it. One is, um, how do 1367 01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:58,000 Speaker 1: we price the inventory? Right? Let's stop pretending that the 1368 01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:01,160 Speaker 1: ticket isn't worth what it's worth, and either you're going 1369 01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:04,439 Speaker 1: to charge the fan what that ticket is worth, or 1370 01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:07,360 Speaker 1: a bunch of capitalist arbitragers are going to come in 1371 01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:10,479 Speaker 1: and figure out how to get ahold of that inventory 1372 01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:14,880 Speaker 1: and resell it. That's what happens um and the only 1373 01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:17,479 Speaker 1: there's only one way around that, and that is if 1374 01:12:17,479 --> 01:12:22,160 Speaker 1: you make a ticket absolutely locked, tied to identity, non transferable, 1375 01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:24,120 Speaker 1: and say, Bob, I'm going to sell you this ticket 1376 01:12:24,160 --> 01:12:26,719 Speaker 1: for twenty dollars that could be resold in the secondary 1377 01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:30,000 Speaker 1: market for two thousand, but the deal is for this ticket, 1378 01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:32,080 Speaker 1: you're gonna spend twenty bucks. That's the benefit to you. 1379 01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:34,400 Speaker 1: The metaphan to me is I know it's you, Bob, 1380 01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:36,320 Speaker 1: who walks through the door. And by the way, if 1381 01:12:36,320 --> 01:12:38,000 Speaker 1: you can't go, maybe I'll give you a refund up 1382 01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:39,920 Speaker 1: until a day or two before the event, because I 1383 01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:42,160 Speaker 1: got a line a mile long of people who want 1384 01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:45,320 Speaker 1: to pay only twenty bucks. But but that's one way 1385 01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:49,480 Speaker 1: you handle let's stop you price it. But let's start there. 1386 01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:52,320 Speaker 1: The so called paper lift ticket. Now, what do we know? 1387 01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:55,360 Speaker 1: Miley Cyrus went on and all these parents could get 1388 01:12:55,439 --> 01:12:57,839 Speaker 1: went out people, all these parents couldn't buy their kids tickets. 1389 01:12:58,080 --> 01:13:00,400 Speaker 1: Then they went out paperless and found out the man 1390 01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:03,200 Speaker 1: was not as strong as they expected. You know, there 1391 01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:06,120 Speaker 1: are some people say sell the good tickets paperless. What 1392 01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:10,559 Speaker 1: is holding back paperless. Is it the government, the fan 1393 01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:15,080 Speaker 1: or the act I don't know that anything is holding 1394 01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:17,719 Speaker 1: back paperless. It's an option for the it's a tool 1395 01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:21,080 Speaker 1: for the artist to use. I mean to forget about paperless. 1396 01:13:20,880 --> 01:13:25,160 Speaker 1: It just restricting transferability. Is a tool for the artist 1397 01:13:25,240 --> 01:13:28,280 Speaker 1: to use as a way of getting a ticket that 1398 01:13:28,439 --> 01:13:32,240 Speaker 1: is probably below face value into the hands of the 1399 01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:35,720 Speaker 1: fans that they want to have. Uh, get that ticket now, 1400 01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:38,960 Speaker 1: I think, you know again, one way to approach that 1401 01:13:39,080 --> 01:13:43,720 Speaker 1: problem is to price the ticket right. The other way 1402 01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:46,479 Speaker 1: is to try to do something about filtering out the 1403 01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:50,959 Speaker 1: bad actors who come in and snap up those tickets, 1404 01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:54,000 Speaker 1: you know, basically by cheating. And I think there's been 1405 01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:56,360 Speaker 1: a lot of documentation about the role that bots play 1406 01:13:56,439 --> 01:13:58,960 Speaker 1: and in buying up tickets today. But if you look 1407 01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:01,519 Speaker 1: at spam, you have the best minds on it, and 1408 01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:04,880 Speaker 1: for twenty five years we still have an email spam problem. 1409 01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:08,160 Speaker 1: As long as the tickets are priced below fair market value. 1410 01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:11,000 Speaker 1: Can you get rid of the so called box or 1411 01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:14,519 Speaker 1: whatever they invent to get the best inventory. I don't know, 1412 01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:17,719 Speaker 1: But um complaining about it and not taking a shot 1413 01:14:17,760 --> 01:14:20,559 Speaker 1: at trying to do something is probably the dumbest thing 1414 01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:23,400 Speaker 1: we can do. But my question is, is it is 1415 01:14:23,439 --> 01:14:27,720 Speaker 1: the best solution that the primary ticket seller like Ticketmaster, 1416 01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:31,880 Speaker 1: like Access price the ticket at what it's truly worth. Well, 1417 01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:35,160 Speaker 1: remember that those the primary ticketer is not setting the price. 1418 01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:39,240 Speaker 1: It's the artist in the promoter right the I was 1419 01:14:39,280 --> 01:14:42,120 Speaker 1: CEO Ticketmaster, I never sold, I never dictated what the 1420 01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:44,960 Speaker 1: ticket price was. We get told by the client. You know, 1421 01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:47,800 Speaker 1: in that moment, of course, what the ticket price is 1422 01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:52,000 Speaker 1: going to be. Yes. Number one, The best possible way 1423 01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:55,200 Speaker 1: to to eliminate that activity is to price the ticket 1424 01:14:55,200 --> 01:14:59,200 Speaker 1: at the intersection of supply demand. Yes, and I think 1425 01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:03,160 Speaker 1: there is um. Just think about it from a business perspective. 1426 01:15:03,479 --> 01:15:06,880 Speaker 1: You don't always try to shake as much money as 1427 01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:10,560 Speaker 1: possible out of a customer on a single transaction. Amazon 1428 01:15:10,920 --> 01:15:14,160 Speaker 1: thinks about the lifetime value of a customer, and so 1429 01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:16,879 Speaker 1: they think about how do I give you some value 1430 01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:20,800 Speaker 1: with every purchase so that instead of instead of spending uh, 1431 01:15:20,840 --> 01:15:24,439 Speaker 1: you know, two dollars with me today, which I could 1432 01:15:24,439 --> 01:15:26,920 Speaker 1: probably get you to spend, um, I'm going to have 1433 01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:30,439 Speaker 1: you only spend fifty dollars, and over the life cycle 1434 01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:34,280 Speaker 1: of your experience with me, you're gonna spend dollars right, 1435 01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:37,439 Speaker 1: that that's the idea, And so I think there is 1436 01:15:37,479 --> 01:15:42,559 Speaker 1: something um not just noble but smart business sense to 1437 01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:46,479 Speaker 1: building the lifetime value of a fan, especially in this 1438 01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:51,880 Speaker 1: day and age when live income is so important to artists. Right, 1439 01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:55,360 Speaker 1: So the idea is, can I get that sixteen year 1440 01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:58,120 Speaker 1: old kid who can't afford the two thousand dollar front 1441 01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:00,559 Speaker 1: row seat or first twenty row seed. Can I get 1442 01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:05,040 Speaker 1: that kid in the venue for a massively reduced fee 1443 01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:07,559 Speaker 1: because I know that she is going to grow up 1444 01:16:07,640 --> 01:16:09,960 Speaker 1: and make millions of dollars and over the course of 1445 01:16:09,960 --> 01:16:12,519 Speaker 1: her lifetime, she's going to spend a hundred thousand dollars 1446 01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:15,559 Speaker 1: or fifty thou dollars or twenty dollars with me. That 1447 01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:18,559 Speaker 1: to me is something that I feel like the artist 1448 01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:21,600 Speaker 1: has the right to be able to control. And the 1449 01:16:21,680 --> 01:16:25,760 Speaker 1: question is, is is their technology that we can give to 1450 01:16:25,840 --> 01:16:28,800 Speaker 1: the artist as a tool to help them give a 1451 01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:32,439 Speaker 1: ticket below face value to a fan. One way to 1452 01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:36,280 Speaker 1: do that is to restrict transferability. The other way to 1453 01:16:36,320 --> 01:16:38,840 Speaker 1: do that is to try to create a net that 1454 01:16:39,040 --> 01:16:42,760 Speaker 1: catches the bad actors. So what's the status of that 1455 01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:46,040 Speaker 1: net today. Well, there's a couple of companies that are 1456 01:16:46,320 --> 01:16:47,760 Speaker 1: that have tried to do that, you know, the the 1457 01:16:47,840 --> 01:16:51,800 Speaker 1: verified fan product that Ticketmaster has done them. You know, 1458 01:16:51,840 --> 01:16:53,640 Speaker 1: song Kick had had a product. I think there's some 1459 01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:57,520 Speaker 1: others who are working on that. And look, I'm biased. Uh. 1460 01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:01,120 Speaker 1: You know, Adam Baine, the CEO Twitter, introduced me to 1461 01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:03,479 Speaker 1: the guy who's the chief data officer a ticket Master, 1462 01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:06,479 Speaker 1: and I hired him, and probably the first meeting, he 1463 01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:09,960 Speaker 1: walked in with a graph that showed probabilities of every 1464 01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:12,599 Speaker 1: request on the system being a broker or not and said, 1465 01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:14,880 Speaker 1: I think I can solve this problem. So you know, 1466 01:17:14,880 --> 01:17:16,280 Speaker 1: there's a whole bunch of people who have worked on 1467 01:17:16,320 --> 01:17:19,000 Speaker 1: that sense and long since I left, and they're doing 1468 01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:22,679 Speaker 1: you know, a whole lot with that product. Um, I'm biased, 1469 01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:24,679 Speaker 1: meaning like those are my like I I of course 1470 01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:28,160 Speaker 1: agree that that's a an approach. Um that is that 1471 01:17:28,280 --> 01:17:31,040 Speaker 1: is worth investing in and is it going to be 1472 01:17:31,120 --> 01:17:33,080 Speaker 1: you know, is that app And now I'm speaking just 1473 01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:35,479 Speaker 1: generally about about the approach And again there's a lot 1474 01:17:35,479 --> 01:17:38,040 Speaker 1: of companies that are thinking about this. Um is the 1475 01:17:38,040 --> 01:17:40,120 Speaker 1: approach going to be fail safe right out of the gate? 1476 01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:43,320 Speaker 1: I don't know, but boy, I really commend to anybody 1477 01:17:43,320 --> 01:17:47,080 Speaker 1: who's trying to do something to shake up the traditional 1478 01:17:47,120 --> 01:17:51,000 Speaker 1: way that we distribute tickets, Like think about it this way, Um, 1479 01:17:51,320 --> 01:17:53,640 Speaker 1: when two million people want twenty tho tickets, probably the 1480 01:17:53,720 --> 01:17:56,559 Speaker 1: least efficient way of distributing that inventory is first come, 1481 01:17:56,600 --> 01:18:00,360 Speaker 1: first served. Like that's a that's a very usable UM 1482 01:18:00,400 --> 01:18:05,559 Speaker 1: distribution vehicle. If you're selling TVs at Walmart on Black Friday, 1483 01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:08,040 Speaker 1: you know, you know, next week, Like, first come, first 1484 01:18:08,040 --> 01:18:10,160 Speaker 1: serve people can line up at Walmart and they trample 1485 01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:12,520 Speaker 1: each other trying to go get you know, cheap Samsung's. 1486 01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:15,200 Speaker 1: That's not the best way to create an online and 1487 01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:19,479 Speaker 1: mobile you know, distribution experience. So UM, if you can 1488 01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:23,320 Speaker 1: slow it down, if you can identify, get to know 1489 01:18:23,640 --> 01:18:27,040 Speaker 1: all of the people in line. Why do we only 1490 01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:29,320 Speaker 1: know the first people who show up in line. Let's 1491 01:18:29,360 --> 01:18:31,680 Speaker 1: get to know all two million people in line and 1492 01:18:31,680 --> 01:18:33,960 Speaker 1: then make some decisions based on a set of business 1493 01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:37,719 Speaker 1: rules around who gets access to that inventory. That feels 1494 01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:41,880 Speaker 1: like a and more fair, be a more enjoyable experience, 1495 01:18:42,479 --> 01:18:44,559 Speaker 1: um for everybody involved. And I think some of the 1496 01:18:44,600 --> 01:18:47,360 Speaker 1: products that you're seeing out there are just the first 1497 01:18:47,439 --> 01:18:52,479 Speaker 1: full ray into making that happen. So verified fan live 1498 01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:55,559 Speaker 1: Nation is going on with Live Nation and Ticketmaster how 1499 01:18:55,600 --> 01:18:57,960 Speaker 1: well it's working. Do you believe it's working as well 1500 01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:00,280 Speaker 1: as they say it's? It's not for me to say. 1501 01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:03,560 Speaker 1: I think it's it's really not for me to say. 1502 01:19:03,280 --> 01:19:06,400 Speaker 1: I again, I am biased in that I'm rooting for 1503 01:19:06,439 --> 01:19:09,960 Speaker 1: those guys, and it sure looks to me, um like, 1504 01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:12,680 Speaker 1: there weren't a whole lot of tickets. You know, there 1505 01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:15,280 Speaker 1: were obviously tickets on StubHub for the Springsteen show, but 1506 01:19:15,760 --> 01:19:17,559 Speaker 1: but it's sure you know, there wasn't have the house, 1507 01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:21,760 Speaker 1: so um uh, you know, I those are my guys 1508 01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:24,479 Speaker 1: over there, working hard and and I'm cheering for him. 1509 01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:28,719 Speaker 1: So as we march forward the best way to get 1510 01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:31,880 Speaker 1: the fans in the building. We have certain options we have. 1511 01:19:32,280 --> 01:19:35,640 Speaker 1: You can't transfer it. One, you can price it according 1512 01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:40,040 Speaker 1: to its value. Three you could have this net. Okay, 1513 01:19:40,520 --> 01:19:44,320 Speaker 1: Now this seems relatively complicated to me. Are those the 1514 01:19:44,400 --> 01:19:47,240 Speaker 1: paths we're going down? Or is there something in the 1515 01:19:47,280 --> 01:19:53,800 Speaker 1: future that's going to solve this problem? I mean, how 1516 01:19:53,800 --> 01:19:56,720 Speaker 1: do you solve supply and demand if you believe in capitalism? 1517 01:19:56,760 --> 01:20:00,600 Speaker 1: I mean, no, those are the options, and you know 1518 01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:03,360 Speaker 1: the hurdles in the way of that are you know, 1519 01:20:03,479 --> 01:20:06,680 Speaker 1: I think there's probably some some stakeholders in the industry 1520 01:20:06,720 --> 01:20:10,840 Speaker 1: who get nervous about restrictions on transferability. There's some stakeholders 1521 01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:15,400 Speaker 1: in the industry. Yeah, look, you know it is an 1522 01:20:15,479 --> 01:20:19,160 Speaker 1: arms race. And I guarantee you that you know when 1523 01:20:19,200 --> 01:20:22,960 Speaker 1: song Kick did their um you know, their equivalent product 1524 01:20:23,160 --> 01:20:27,400 Speaker 1: on the adel ship. There are people who have five 1525 01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:30,840 Speaker 1: burner phones in India and a bunch of social profiles 1526 01:20:30,880 --> 01:20:33,000 Speaker 1: and you know who are thinking about how do I 1527 01:20:33,160 --> 01:20:37,280 Speaker 1: basically create a fake identity? And it's gonna be you know, 1528 01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:40,200 Speaker 1: there's gonna be times when the when the defense is winning, 1529 01:20:40,200 --> 01:20:42,360 Speaker 1: and there's gonna be times when the offense is winning. 1530 01:20:42,920 --> 01:20:45,080 Speaker 1: And I'm sure that that that's how it will work 1531 01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:46,720 Speaker 1: in our industry. But if you look at it, Let 1532 01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:51,040 Speaker 1: if you look at like buying electronics, TVs, stereo equipment whatever, 1533 01:20:51,040 --> 01:20:53,599 Speaker 1: it used to be that you went to the store 1534 01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:55,240 Speaker 1: and it was kind of like buying a car, you 1535 01:20:55,320 --> 01:20:58,599 Speaker 1: haggled over the price. Now you go online and there 1536 01:20:58,720 --> 01:21:01,919 Speaker 1: is a price and you can possibly get a slightly 1537 01:21:02,000 --> 01:21:05,479 Speaker 1: cheaper price two percent or something if you're not willing 1538 01:21:05,560 --> 01:21:12,200 Speaker 1: to buy it from a traditional retailer i e. Walmart, Amazon, etcetera. 1539 01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:14,439 Speaker 1: How come we don't have the same thing in tickets, 1540 01:21:14,479 --> 01:21:16,959 Speaker 1: and I think it's coming. I think the problem historically 1541 01:21:17,040 --> 01:21:21,680 Speaker 1: has been data and and you know that was one 1542 01:21:21,720 --> 01:21:24,200 Speaker 1: of the most important things that I focused on a Ticketmaster. 1543 01:21:24,280 --> 01:21:25,920 Speaker 1: I know they have considered that. I mean I heard, 1544 01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:28,240 Speaker 1: you know, you asked me about that startup a guy 1545 01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:30,360 Speaker 1: that I worked with at that startup in San Francisco. 1546 01:21:30,720 --> 01:21:33,439 Speaker 1: I hired a ticketmaster to run live analytics, start live 1547 01:21:33,479 --> 01:21:35,920 Speaker 1: analytics and and run it, which was a business built 1548 01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:38,120 Speaker 1: on how do we capture a bunch of data and 1549 01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:40,920 Speaker 1: help teams and artists make better decisions about their fans 1550 01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:43,880 Speaker 1: and how they price their inventory. And it sure looks 1551 01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:47,160 Speaker 1: to me if you just take a step back, um 1552 01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:49,959 Speaker 1: and now again not talking about Ticketmaster, but just generally 1553 01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:52,920 Speaker 1: speaking in the industry, it looks to me like value 1554 01:21:53,080 --> 01:21:56,559 Speaker 1: is accruing to the people who put tickets on sale first, 1555 01:21:57,160 --> 01:22:00,200 Speaker 1: away from people who are trying to resell tickets, which 1556 01:22:00,240 --> 01:22:02,439 Speaker 1: is to say, I think we're getting smarter about pricing. 1557 01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:04,439 Speaker 1: And it takes time. You've got to build up a 1558 01:22:04,479 --> 01:22:06,479 Speaker 1: historical data set, and you've got to put in place 1559 01:22:06,560 --> 01:22:09,960 Speaker 1: the tools. But generally speaking, I think artists and teams 1560 01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:13,200 Speaker 1: have much much better information I mean, uh, than than 1561 01:22:13,240 --> 01:22:16,760 Speaker 1: than they did even even three years ago. And and 1562 01:22:16,880 --> 01:22:20,040 Speaker 1: you know, uh, the sports teams in particular have highly 1563 01:22:20,120 --> 01:22:25,360 Speaker 1: sophisticated teams of three to ten people who are in 1564 01:22:25,439 --> 01:22:29,400 Speaker 1: their offices all day long. They're just thinking about building 1565 01:22:29,560 --> 01:22:33,000 Speaker 1: the most sophisticated pricing models they possibly can. Right there's 1566 01:22:33,080 --> 01:22:36,400 Speaker 1: sixty five thousand seats in an NFL stadium. Each one 1567 01:22:36,439 --> 01:22:39,639 Speaker 1: of those seats ostensibly has its own value. It's kind 1568 01:22:39,640 --> 01:22:42,040 Speaker 1: of the same way at a concert. And even still 1569 01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:45,400 Speaker 1: in the music business today we basically put three different 1570 01:22:45,400 --> 01:22:47,400 Speaker 1: price levels of tickets on sale. At least in the 1571 01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:49,880 Speaker 1: sports business, we've gotten a little more sophisticated in that. 1572 01:22:50,240 --> 01:22:52,400 Speaker 1: I think the music business is ready for that. I 1573 01:22:52,439 --> 01:22:54,760 Speaker 1: think they're smart enough to do it. I think now 1574 01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:57,120 Speaker 1: they just have to condition the fan to get ready 1575 01:22:57,160 --> 01:22:59,600 Speaker 1: for that. And the secondary market helps in that capacity, 1576 01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:03,040 Speaker 1: because today, when so many people buying the secondary market, 1577 01:23:03,160 --> 01:23:04,760 Speaker 1: they don't show up and turn to the guy next 1578 01:23:04,760 --> 01:23:06,120 Speaker 1: to them and go, hey, how much did you pay? 1579 01:23:06,120 --> 01:23:07,760 Speaker 1: Oh you paid a hunter bucks less than me. Oh, 1580 01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:10,160 Speaker 1: I'm angry. There's sort of condition to the fact that 1581 01:23:10,240 --> 01:23:12,360 Speaker 1: you sometimes get a good deal, sometimes you get a 1582 01:23:12,360 --> 01:23:14,920 Speaker 1: bad deal, And and so you know, that's sort of 1583 01:23:14,960 --> 01:23:18,559 Speaker 1: the natural progression and evolution of our industry. I think 1584 01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:21,920 Speaker 1: is is that as you acquire more data and build 1585 01:23:22,000 --> 01:23:25,200 Speaker 1: up a sophisticated internal sort of analytics function, you can 1586 01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:28,680 Speaker 1: start make better making better pricing decisions and maximizing the 1587 01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:31,200 Speaker 1: intersection of supply and demand. So getting back to the 1588 01:23:31,240 --> 01:23:33,799 Speaker 1: point you made earlier, Yeah, when there's six dollar seats 1589 01:23:33,800 --> 01:23:38,200 Speaker 1: on StubHub. You know, if if a tour is massively hot, 1590 01:23:38,280 --> 01:23:40,679 Speaker 1: would you expect that every seat would be sold? Yeah? 1591 01:23:40,720 --> 01:23:42,920 Speaker 1: But does that mean that the artist isn't hitting it 1592 01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:45,719 Speaker 1: out of the park and optimizing the revenue and making 1593 01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:49,840 Speaker 1: a bunch of money. Uh, it means the artist still 1594 01:23:49,880 --> 01:23:54,200 Speaker 1: probably is because those aren't mutually exclusive things. Okay, just 1595 01:23:54,280 --> 01:23:57,360 Speaker 1: going uh to slightly different matters the NFL. What's the 1596 01:23:57,400 --> 01:24:03,040 Speaker 1: future there? Don't get me? I mean, look, I don't 1597 01:24:03,040 --> 01:24:05,800 Speaker 1: I don't have an answer right now other than you know, 1598 01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:10,240 Speaker 1: I'll say this on the inside, UM, I have never 1599 01:24:10,280 --> 01:24:14,280 Speaker 1: seen as much UM I don't want to see distract 1600 01:24:14,400 --> 01:24:20,240 Speaker 1: focus on a series of problems and challenges, uh, and 1601 01:24:20,360 --> 01:24:24,600 Speaker 1: ideas and conversations about that are sort of core existential 1602 01:24:24,640 --> 01:24:26,719 Speaker 1: things to the league as as we have this fall 1603 01:24:27,080 --> 01:24:30,800 Speaker 1: which is to say between you know, I mean we 1604 01:24:30,800 --> 01:24:32,559 Speaker 1: we we live in Los Angeles. We've got a lot 1605 01:24:32,560 --> 01:24:36,000 Speaker 1: of people around us who cannot even believe that there's 1606 01:24:36,080 --> 01:24:40,320 Speaker 1: any issue with the anthem protests. Well, you know, regardless 1607 01:24:40,320 --> 01:24:42,679 Speaker 1: of where you fallen the issue. And to be clear, 1608 01:24:42,680 --> 01:24:45,720 Speaker 1: I fallen the issue supporting the players right to do 1609 01:24:45,800 --> 01:24:48,720 Speaker 1: this and understanding that it's a protest against a bunch 1610 01:24:48,760 --> 01:24:51,080 Speaker 1: of social injustice. But there are a lot of folks 1611 01:24:51,160 --> 01:24:54,800 Speaker 1: who have who have seen it another way or sort 1612 01:24:54,800 --> 01:24:59,000 Speaker 1: of believed propaganda that it that that it's geared towards 1613 01:24:59,080 --> 01:25:04,120 Speaker 1: something else, and and they're real business effects on the league, right, 1614 01:25:04,400 --> 01:25:07,000 Speaker 1: But the Wall Street Journal did a study and they 1615 01:25:07,040 --> 01:25:12,160 Speaker 1: said they found that there was no reduction in viewership 1616 01:25:12,240 --> 01:25:14,080 Speaker 1: as a result of the Yeah, but the Wall Street 1617 01:25:14,160 --> 01:25:17,040 Speaker 1: Journal isn't answering phones from angry season ticket holders and 1618 01:25:17,080 --> 01:25:19,479 Speaker 1: sweet holders. And that's not to say that those people, right, 1619 01:25:19,520 --> 01:25:21,519 Speaker 1: I'm just saying it's a real issue. It's a real 1620 01:25:21,560 --> 01:25:24,280 Speaker 1: business issue, Okay, but that's a temporary issue. What about 1621 01:25:24,320 --> 01:25:29,080 Speaker 1: the ct E I E concussion, Luke Garregg's disease. What 1622 01:25:29,120 --> 01:25:30,960 Speaker 1: degree do you think that will have a negative effect 1623 01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:35,800 Speaker 1: on the league. I think I think, who the hell 1624 01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:37,800 Speaker 1: cares what I think. I'm not a doctor and I'm 1625 01:25:37,800 --> 01:25:41,400 Speaker 1: just an idiot. But but the the the answer is, 1626 01:25:41,640 --> 01:25:44,000 Speaker 1: I think there are a bunch of existential issues with 1627 01:25:44,040 --> 01:25:46,920 Speaker 1: the league right now, and so everything uh that you're 1628 01:25:46,920 --> 01:25:49,920 Speaker 1: seeing play out in the press, from health issues to 1629 01:25:50,400 --> 01:25:54,639 Speaker 1: the anthem stuff to you know, the breujaja over over 1630 01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:58,360 Speaker 1: the over the commissioner and so forth, I think are 1631 01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:01,880 Speaker 1: all symptomatic of a league that's really trying to chart 1632 01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:04,040 Speaker 1: a new course. Now, I will say this, there are 1633 01:26:04,280 --> 01:26:07,000 Speaker 1: really smart people who are involved in this who I 1634 01:26:07,040 --> 01:26:09,960 Speaker 1: think don't get enough credit. Um, whether it be the owners, 1635 01:26:10,040 --> 01:26:11,960 Speaker 1: some people work at the league, so and so forth 1636 01:26:12,360 --> 01:26:15,639 Speaker 1: for how they think about this. You know, the nuance 1637 01:26:15,680 --> 01:26:19,400 Speaker 1: of the challenges ahead and um, and so this is 1638 01:26:19,560 --> 01:26:21,360 Speaker 1: a whole lot of words for me to sort of duck. 1639 01:26:21,800 --> 01:26:25,160 Speaker 1: The answer is, I think the NFL has a whole 1640 01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:29,760 Speaker 1: series of challenges that um that we're inevitable and we'll 1641 01:26:29,800 --> 01:26:33,679 Speaker 1: see if a bunch of smart people who who understand 1642 01:26:33,680 --> 01:26:35,559 Speaker 1: the issues better than I can can weather the storm. Now, 1643 01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:38,639 Speaker 1: if we look at concerts, concert ticket prices have gone 1644 01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:42,559 Speaker 1: up dramatically since the Eagles health reeze is over, tour 1645 01:26:42,600 --> 01:26:46,360 Speaker 1: of the mid nineties, but we did see a reaction 1646 01:26:46,400 --> 01:26:50,120 Speaker 1: in the year when people didn't go the contract. Ticket 1647 01:26:50,160 --> 01:26:52,240 Speaker 1: sales going to continue to go up in a world 1648 01:26:52,320 --> 01:26:55,800 Speaker 1: wards focused on experiences or what are the challenges we 1649 01:26:55,840 --> 01:26:59,920 Speaker 1: face there? Well, I mean the music industry is doing 1650 01:27:00,080 --> 01:27:01,519 Speaker 1: right right now, isn't it. I mean it's hard to 1651 01:27:01,560 --> 01:27:04,000 Speaker 1: find a business that isn't doing well. And so, you know, 1652 01:27:04,040 --> 01:27:06,880 Speaker 1: you look at Universal. I'm not picking on Universal, but 1653 01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:08,800 Speaker 1: you look at a record label that says, hey, we're back, 1654 01:27:08,840 --> 01:27:11,200 Speaker 1: everything is going great. I don't was that the result 1655 01:27:11,240 --> 01:27:14,640 Speaker 1: of management decisions or is that the result of you know, 1656 01:27:14,920 --> 01:27:19,200 Speaker 1: Spotify right and inventing a solution for them? I don't 1657 01:27:19,240 --> 01:27:21,200 Speaker 1: know what I'll say in the live businesses, you know, 1658 01:27:21,240 --> 01:27:24,000 Speaker 1: I certainly by the by drink the kool aid and 1659 01:27:24,040 --> 01:27:27,280 Speaker 1: by the argument that in a world in which we 1660 01:27:27,320 --> 01:27:29,600 Speaker 1: are so focused on our devices and looking down, we 1661 01:27:29,640 --> 01:27:33,720 Speaker 1: have so many solitary experiences. Um. Just getting back to 1662 01:27:33,840 --> 01:27:35,800 Speaker 1: sort of me and what drives me. I believe that 1663 01:27:35,840 --> 01:27:39,160 Speaker 1: we are chemically wired to interact with each other, and 1664 01:27:39,360 --> 01:27:42,200 Speaker 1: that you know, so much of retail now is being 1665 01:27:42,200 --> 01:27:46,960 Speaker 1: converted to places where people can congregate, and so I 1666 01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:51,120 Speaker 1: think the idea that, um, we need, we need opportunities 1667 01:27:51,160 --> 01:27:55,080 Speaker 1: to come together and be in a moment. And that's 1668 01:27:55,120 --> 01:27:57,360 Speaker 1: fascinating to me that I've always been fascinated by the 1669 01:27:57,439 --> 01:27:59,439 Speaker 1: energy of the crowd and so, um, you know, I'm 1670 01:27:59,439 --> 01:28:02,479 Speaker 1: always going to be probably overly optimistic on on the 1671 01:28:02,520 --> 01:28:06,280 Speaker 1: opportunity there. Well, thank you Nathan for illuminating all these 1672 01:28:06,320 --> 01:28:09,559 Speaker 1: issues about ticketing in concerts. So you've been listening to 1673 01:28:09,640 --> 01:28:13,280 Speaker 1: Nathan Hubbard opine on the state of ticketing and State 1674 01:28:13,280 --> 01:28:17,680 Speaker 1: of America. It's been a very edifying experience. We have 1675 01:28:17,800 --> 01:28:19,439 Speaker 1: much more to cover, but we'll do that in a 1676 01:28:19,560 --> 01:28:24,879 Speaker 1: subsequent podcast. Thanks again for attending the Bob left Sets podcast. 1677 01:28:24,960 --> 01:28:30,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. Hi, this is Bob left Sets. 1678 01:28:30,920 --> 01:28:32,519 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being a fan of 1679 01:28:32,560 --> 01:28:36,320 Speaker 1: my podcast. You can email me at Bob at left 1680 01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:39,160 Speaker 1: sets dot com and let us know what you think 1681 01:28:39,200 --> 01:28:42,120 Speaker 1: and suggestions. We're open to alle ideas. Be sure to 1682 01:28:42,200 --> 01:28:59,520 Speaker 1: subscribe and tune in iTunes or your podcast player of choice. 1683 01:29:00,600 --> 01:29:06,600 Speaker 1: Can think of in reason and don't know reason