1
00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:14,280
Speaker 1: Dismemberment and homicides are rare, so when they happen, attention

2
00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:20,320
Speaker 1: needs to be placed on it. Sharon Miller went missing

3
00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:25,120
Speaker 1: April twenty eighth, nineteen eighty two, but it would be

4
00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:29,720
Speaker 1: nine months before her remains were found by utility workers

5
00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:36,320
Speaker 1: on January fourteenth, nineteen eighty three. Her hands and feet

6
00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:42,360
Speaker 1: were missing, a blue blanket was covering her decomposed remains.

7
00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,360
Speaker 1: Her remains were found in a wooded, secluded area of

8
00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:53,080
Speaker 1: Baltimore County off powder Mill Road in Woodlawn. She was

9
00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:58,960
Speaker 1: just twenty nine years old and her son only eleven. Tonight,

10
00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,200
Speaker 1: we have two special young men joining us who brought

11
00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:08,160
Speaker 1: us this case, Alvin Williams and France L. Evans from

12
00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:13,200
Speaker 1: Affirmative Murder podcast. Now let me tell you all about them.

13
00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:18,920
Speaker 1: They are wonderful young men. They are handsome, they are funny,

14
00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:23,760
Speaker 1: they are smart, they are friendly, they're good businessmen. There's

15
00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,000
Speaker 1: not enough good I can say about them. I will

16
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,000
Speaker 1: tell you how we met. I was walking down the

17
00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,120
Speaker 1: hall at Crime Con and they were doing a live broadcast,

18
00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,680
Speaker 1: and suddenly they started talking to me like we had

19
00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,120
Speaker 1: known each other for twenty years. And I just found

20
00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,560
Speaker 1: their whole vibe, just the way they engaged, so honest

21
00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:49,560
Speaker 1: and so fun because even though we were talking about murder,

22
00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:55,360
Speaker 1: their sense of humor led the conversation. Their podcast is

23
00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:01,880
Speaker 1: a true crime comedy podcast, y'all. They swamp murder stories

24
00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,400
Speaker 1: from marginalized communities while they tried. This is a quote

25
00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,120
Speaker 1: not to rant about fast food or what is actually

26
00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:15,519
Speaker 1: buried in graveyards. Gentlemen, Welcome to Zone seven.

27
00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,840
Speaker 2: Thank you Mac mac mac. It is a pleasure to

28
00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,920
Speaker 2: be here. I can't really, you know, put this into

29
00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,520
Speaker 2: words in any other way other than whenever I speak

30
00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,399
Speaker 2: to it feels like a short stack of griddle cakes

31
00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,480
Speaker 2: with a side of the best grit you've ever had

32
00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:34,760
Speaker 2: in your life. And it makes me so warm and happy.

33
00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:36,400
Speaker 2: It's always good to speak to And thanks for having

34
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:37,640
Speaker 2: us and saying such nice things.

35
00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,400
Speaker 1: Oh, Alvin, I'm going to remember that forever. I may

36
00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,000
Speaker 1: have to get me something with that written on it.

37
00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,280
Speaker 1: And Franzail, seriously, the first time we met, it was

38
00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,120
Speaker 1: like have I met them before? I mean, y'all just

39
00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,040
Speaker 1: have this way of engaging with people that's just wonderful.

40
00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,440
Speaker 2: Well, you're an easy chat so and that's why you're

41
00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:01,680
Speaker 2: so good at what you do. You are an easy

42
00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:02,880
Speaker 2: conversation list for sure.

43
00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,120
Speaker 1: Well, this is an important evening and I think we're

44
00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:07,760
Speaker 1: going to have a lot of fun, but we're gonna

45
00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,280
Speaker 1: shed some light on a case that I think needs

46
00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,000
Speaker 1: a spotlight. And y'all, you may or may not know

47
00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,120
Speaker 1: the way I work, but I'm a cromising investigator for

48
00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,040
Speaker 1: a living still and I have a way of working

49
00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,120
Speaker 1: cold cases. And I call it the last twenty four

50
00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,359
Speaker 1: So I take the last twenty four hours of a

51
00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:29,360
Speaker 1: victim's life and I try to see where they intersected

52
00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:34,040
Speaker 1: with the killer. And in Sharon's Miller case, I'm going

53
00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,160
Speaker 1: to tell you the fact that she had visitors the

54
00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,360
Speaker 1: night before. Alvin tell us a little bit about that.

55
00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,560
Speaker 2: So according to her son Charles, who was eleven years

56
00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,000
Speaker 2: old at the time, the last time he had saw

57
00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,840
Speaker 2: his mom, she had had a few gentlemen over at

58
00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:50,400
Speaker 2: the house. I don't know if it was a party

59
00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:52,920
Speaker 2: or what, but they were conversating and he was on

60
00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,840
Speaker 2: his way out to play and just a little behind

61
00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,640
Speaker 2: baseball a bit. I mean, I grew up not far

62
00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,360
Speaker 2: from where this took place. Obviously it was a few

63
00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,200
Speaker 2: decades later, but my mom had me at a younger age,

64
00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,880
Speaker 2: I really resonate with the perspective of her son. And

65
00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,000
Speaker 2: you know, so I can that being the last thing

66
00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:17,159
Speaker 2: you see. And if it was a normal situation, you

67
00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,520
Speaker 2: know it. You know, it would have been not a

68
00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,919
Speaker 2: second thought if he comes on and everything's fine. But

69
00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,040
Speaker 2: according to him, this was concerning to him. But when

70
00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,159
Speaker 2: he got back, she was still home. And then he

71
00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,480
Speaker 2: said that he heard her on a phone call where

72
00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,560
Speaker 2: she said something to the effect of when you bring

73
00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,360
Speaker 2: my son into it, that's when you start a war

74
00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,800
Speaker 2: with me. And he said that night they slept on

75
00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:44,240
Speaker 2: the couch together instead of in their own individual bedrooms,

76
00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,039
Speaker 2: which again is odd. It could be a cute moment,

77
00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,760
Speaker 2: but after you hear something like that on the phone,

78
00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,120
Speaker 2: you start to piece things together, especially after we get

79
00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,040
Speaker 2: to what happens, you know, all of those things, the gentleman,

80
00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,880
Speaker 2: the phone call, everything becomes concerning. And he said the

81
00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:00,200
Speaker 2: next day he woke up and he went to cool

82
00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:02,359
Speaker 2: and when he got home that later that evening, his

83
00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:03,039
Speaker 2: mom wasn't.

84
00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:07,360
Speaker 1: There now, Franz Hail, when I was growing up, if

85
00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,640
Speaker 1: a group of adults had come over to my house,

86
00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:14,880
Speaker 1: ain't no way I'm leaving baby. That was original reality TV.

87
00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:16,280
Speaker 2: That's a fact.

88
00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:18,640
Speaker 1: So even if my mom and dad said y'all go

89
00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:20,720
Speaker 1: out and play, it takes me an hour and a

90
00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:25,120
Speaker 1: half to put my shoes on because I want the gossip.

91
00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,359
Speaker 1: I want to know what's going on because it's good.

92
00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,080
Speaker 2: Yes, when you hear the good stuff, Yeah.

93
00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,240
Speaker 1: That's when you hear the good stuff. Did you know

94
00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:36,000
Speaker 1: you shouldn't be privy too? So when you heard that

95
00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:41,000
Speaker 1: there were visitors, then a follow up phone call, then

96
00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,440
Speaker 1: she made sure her child was with her in the den,

97
00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,120
Speaker 1: not alone in his bedroom. What did you take from

98
00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:49,600
Speaker 1: all of that?

99
00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,080
Speaker 2: I took from that that. I mean, obviously that's there's fear.

100
00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:55,080
Speaker 3: If you get a phone you hear a phone call

101
00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,760
Speaker 3: like that, and then a night comes and you and

102
00:05:57,800 --> 00:05:59,440
Speaker 3: mom goes, you know, let's sleep on the couch. You

103
00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,920
Speaker 3: know that. I think still at eleven years old, you know,

104
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,240
Speaker 3: there's some thoughts creeping in and were like, you know

105
00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,080
Speaker 3: that that's kind of weird. But just hearing that, I'm like,

106
00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:11,080
Speaker 3: there's fear and mom you know, it's trying to protect

107
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,760
Speaker 3: her baby what a mom is supposed to do. And

108
00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:15,680
Speaker 3: I think that that alone speaks.

109
00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,840
Speaker 1: Volumes, sounds like she took it seriously. So here's what

110
00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,480
Speaker 1: we know. We know they knew where she lived, we

111
00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,760
Speaker 1: know they knew her phone number. So these are somebody

112
00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:30,080
Speaker 1: in her immediate social circle. Alvin, do you think her

113
00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,040
Speaker 1: having adults over at the house was a rare occurrence

114
00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,440
Speaker 1: or did he just think this is weird because they're

115
00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:36,920
Speaker 1: all men?

116
00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,080
Speaker 2: Because he left anyway, Yeah, I racked my brain about

117
00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:46,280
Speaker 2: that because he still went out and played and so

118
00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,960
Speaker 2: like we just we jokingly said that, but I fully

119
00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,840
Speaker 2: agree with that. I mean, if this was a group

120
00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,760
Speaker 2: of people that he was familiar with, he might not

121
00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:56,600
Speaker 2: have been as reticent to go outside because oh, it's

122
00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,359
Speaker 2: my favorite cousins or you know, my favorite uncle, or

123
00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,160
Speaker 2: I'm gonna hang in the house and just you know,

124
00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,599
Speaker 2: play some games, but hang out on the steps and listen.

125
00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,200
Speaker 2: That tells me that it might have been not as

126
00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,440
Speaker 2: normal of an occurrence, and it felt like something that

127
00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,200
Speaker 2: kids are not allowed to be around for, like it

128
00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,240
Speaker 2: you know, maybe maybe sharing is like it's time to

129
00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,400
Speaker 2: go outside, and you're going outside. I was thinking the

130
00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,360
Speaker 2: same thing. But this isn't a conversation meant for you to.

131
00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,440
Speaker 1: Hear, right, Yeah, that checks out to me.

132
00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it being a group of men. Yeah, yeah,

133
00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:25,160
Speaker 2: that's that's definitely concerning.

134
00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,960
Speaker 1: So Franzail. The next morning, they get up, he has

135
00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,440
Speaker 1: owned a school, she heads to work, and what happens.

136
00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,880
Speaker 3: So then he comes home and then you know mom

137
00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:38,880
Speaker 3: is missing. We don't know, we don't know where mom

138
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,240
Speaker 3: is at this point. And as a kid, I mean

139
00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:44,880
Speaker 3: coming home and you see your mom before you go

140
00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:46,760
Speaker 3: to school and come home and like, okay, where's mom.

141
00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:47,920
Speaker 2: Mom's not home.

142
00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,120
Speaker 3: I think that's that's a big concerning As a eleven

143
00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,360
Speaker 3: year old child, that's terrifying.

144
00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,440
Speaker 1: And they had a routine. I mean it's just the

145
00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,480
Speaker 1: two of them, so he would know she would be

146
00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,160
Speaker 1: here by five o'clock, four or whatever the time was.

147
00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,960
Speaker 2: I like, much like Charles, I was also a latch

148
00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:05,840
Speaker 2: key kid. I believe friend was a latch key kid too,

149
00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,360
Speaker 2: so like I wouldn't get concerned. There was one time

150
00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:11,960
Speaker 2: I locked myself out of my house and my mom

151
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,840
Speaker 2: didn't get home until six thirty. But I knew that,

152
00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,280
Speaker 2: so you know, in this instance, I'm worried about getting

153
00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,960
Speaker 2: in trouble because I lost the key again. But but

154
00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:23,440
Speaker 2: I know, like I just need to go hang out

155
00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,040
Speaker 2: at a friend's house until six thirty and then my

156
00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:27,520
Speaker 2: mom will be home and I can get into the house.

157
00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,120
Speaker 2: So he goes, and he goes down to down the

158
00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,320
Speaker 2: street a couple doors to his friend's house and stays there,

159
00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,240
Speaker 2: you know. But I'm sure at once, at some point

160
00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,000
Speaker 2: it's like, okay, works over. Maybe she went to the

161
00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,840
Speaker 2: grocery store. That doesn't take that long. There's a point

162
00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:43,880
Speaker 2: in which, you know, when you're a last chey kid,

163
00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:45,840
Speaker 2: a kid of a single mom, you know, like there's

164
00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,720
Speaker 2: a window where Okay, she's supposed to be bad specting

165
00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,679
Speaker 2: by now yep, you know, And so that window passed,

166
00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,600
Speaker 2: you know, and now concern is real. And at some point,

167
00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:58,760
Speaker 2: you know, after a few days of staying at his

168
00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,520
Speaker 2: friend's house, which you know, who knows the you know,

169
00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,960
Speaker 2: the fear that you're feeling, he saw people gathered outside

170
00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,920
Speaker 2: the house and that's when he knew like something was wrong.

171
00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:09,560
Speaker 2: She was missing.

172
00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,640
Speaker 1: So, Franz Helle, do we know how she got to work?

173
00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,800
Speaker 1: Did she take a car, a bus? Walk? Do we

174
00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:17,240
Speaker 1: know that?

175
00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,120
Speaker 3: The research I've done, they couldn't find anything about her

176
00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,760
Speaker 3: transportation to work at all? But that is raised some

177
00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,120
Speaker 3: questions as far as like you know, did she get

178
00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,320
Speaker 3: a ride or like did she catch a bus and

179
00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,200
Speaker 3: stuff like that. So I don't you know, as some

180
00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,080
Speaker 3: information I was, I wasn't able to find.

181
00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,200
Speaker 1: I wasn't able to find it either. I couldn't even

182
00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:35,559
Speaker 1: find if she made it to.

183
00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,720
Speaker 2: Work right that day. Yeah, exactly, same, Okay. One thing,

184
00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:40,720
Speaker 2: one thing that I would note for people who have

185
00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,160
Speaker 2: never been to Baltimore. So there's the city, which is

186
00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:46,160
Speaker 2: the city is the city no matter where you are.

187
00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,960
Speaker 2: But then the county would be similar to the suburbs

188
00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,200
Speaker 2: and other places, like there's the city in the suburbs,

189
00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,920
Speaker 2: so the county's outside of the city. But then the

190
00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:56,800
Speaker 2: further outside of the city that you start to get,

191
00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:58,600
Speaker 2: it starts to become a lot more like the sticks.

192
00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,720
Speaker 2: So you know, do you think suburbs, you think nice,

193
00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,360
Speaker 2: But then you know, the further out you get, you

194
00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,880
Speaker 2: kind of invert back around and it becomes low income

195
00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,000
Speaker 2: living situations, not just like oh the suburban life. It

196
00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:17,920
Speaker 2: becomes like just grassy low income and that's really Woodlawn

197
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,320
Speaker 2: kind of is in the middle of That's got some

198
00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,120
Speaker 2: suburban areas, but it's got some areas that are as

199
00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,640
Speaker 2: as rough as any neighborhood in the city.

200
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,320
Speaker 1: So for Sharon Miller, it would be even more difficult

201
00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:30,320
Speaker 1: to get around.

202
00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,839
Speaker 2: Yes, because it's very spread out. So that could be

203
00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,400
Speaker 2: a bus line, that could be catching a hack or

204
00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,440
Speaker 2: like a friend giving a carpool type of situation. But

205
00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,280
Speaker 2: it's definitely not walkable like the city is.

206
00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:45,319
Speaker 1: So in this neighborhood, you have an African American, single mom,

207
00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:53,719
Speaker 1: no man in the house, making it, but barely do

208
00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:58,960
Speaker 1: you think law enforcements reaction was she'll show up. She's

209
00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,840
Speaker 1: probably just with a date somewhere. There might be drugs,

210
00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,559
Speaker 1: there might be other situations that would take her away

211
00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,120
Speaker 1: from her child for a couple of days. Because even

212
00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:09,600
Speaker 1: he didn't panic day one.

213
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely believe that that played a role in it.

214
00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,680
Speaker 2: Because one, I think that in the case of the

215
00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:19,880
Speaker 2: forty eight hour rule, if you have reliable people around

216
00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,840
Speaker 2: you to advocate for you, it put you know, it

217
00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,520
Speaker 2: lights a fire under the asses of detectives. But for

218
00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,000
Speaker 2: your biggest advocate to be an eleven year old, it's

219
00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:31,320
Speaker 2: kind of like, well, we're going to probably stick to

220
00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,880
Speaker 2: our traditional system of give it forty eight hours. You know,

221
00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,680
Speaker 2: let them see if they turn up. Because the word

222
00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:39,319
Speaker 2: of this eleven year old saying well, my mom's really

223
00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,439
Speaker 2: nice and she is the best mom in the world.

224
00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:42,679
Speaker 2: It is like, well, that doesn't give us a like

225
00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,200
Speaker 2: insight into her character. So I think that they probably

226
00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,840
Speaker 2: stuck to the traditional forty eight hours. Maybe she'll turn up.

227
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,320
Speaker 2: She might have you know, dipped off into a corner,

228
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,360
Speaker 2: went off with a friend, a fling or something like that,

229
00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:57,920
Speaker 2: and she'll be back. Let's see if she turns up.

230
00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,800
Speaker 1: And Alvin, that's a good point. That brings me to

231
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,040
Speaker 1: the person that I always like to interview. And Franzille,

232
00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,760
Speaker 1: that's the best friend. Do we know her best.

233
00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:13,720
Speaker 2: Friend based on this, you know, mysterious group of men

234
00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:19,280
Speaker 2: that she hung around with. It's hard to say that.

235
00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,280
Speaker 2: You know, I knew, I know that I don't know

236
00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:22,840
Speaker 2: where she worked, but I know she had a nine

237
00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,680
Speaker 2: to five job, and you know, she was keeping a

238
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,280
Speaker 2: roof over her children's head. But the phone call and

239
00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:31,240
Speaker 2: the group of men tells me that she might have

240
00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,319
Speaker 2: been dating someone who ran in dark circles. She might

241
00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,360
Speaker 2: have been, you know, hanging out with the wrong crowd.

242
00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,960
Speaker 2: And you know, also, you know, and I hate to

243
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,720
Speaker 2: put disparaging ideas about anybody you know in a situation

244
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,720
Speaker 2: like this, but a lot of times young people in

245
00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:52,120
Speaker 2: situation like this, specifically women and women in the area

246
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:57,600
Speaker 2: that she was from, they get caught up in uh oh,

247
00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,239
Speaker 2: can we keep this at your house type of situation,

248
00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:02,920
Speaker 2: you know, Can we use your basement? Can we can

249
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,280
Speaker 2: we stash this here or something like that, you know,

250
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,400
Speaker 2: And I just get that read from this. I don't

251
00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,600
Speaker 2: want to talk ill of someone that is not here

252
00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,880
Speaker 2: with us, but it just I just feel like Sharon

253
00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:17,880
Speaker 2: got caught up in something that was bigger than her,

254
00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,560
Speaker 2: and she picked her side and something went wrong.

255
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:27,200
Speaker 1: Here's the deal. People will come to you because they

256
00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,760
Speaker 1: want to use your house to hide drugs, in store drugs,

257
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,640
Speaker 1: in use it as a gambling spot for like an

258
00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:40,640
Speaker 1: underground you know, card party. They might even run prostitution

259
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,320
Speaker 1: out of your house. And you get a cut, just

260
00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:48,160
Speaker 1: like a casino. And sometimes it's easy to say, hey,

261
00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,520
Speaker 1: I'm not going to make a rent unless I do

262
00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,199
Speaker 1: this favor. And then again, my child can have a

263
00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,679
Speaker 1: roof over their head and food and new shoes. And

264
00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,080
Speaker 1: I'm not doing anything illegal. I'm not selling drugs, I'm

265
00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,559
Speaker 1: not gambling. I'm just letting them use the basement. So

266
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,240
Speaker 1: it's easy to almost convince yourself that everything's going to

267
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,880
Speaker 1: be okay. But then if you don't want to play anymore,

268
00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:14,280
Speaker 1: they may not let you out.

269
00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, we talk about that a lot, just off Mike,

270
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,040
Speaker 2: just just living life in the world where you go.

271
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,120
Speaker 2: You know, easy money sounds easy until you don't want

272
00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,640
Speaker 2: to make it anymore, you know, Like then it's like, well,

273
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,320
Speaker 2: if they tell you you can't stop making this money,

274
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:29,520
Speaker 2: we're gonna keep giving it to you, and we're going

275
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,600
Speaker 2: to keep doing whatever we're doing, whatever favor you're doing.

276
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:33,280
Speaker 2: Who are you going to go to the police, Like,

277
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:34,920
Speaker 2: who are you going to tell? Who are you going

278
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,640
Speaker 2: to ask for help? Exactly another CD criminal And.

279
00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:43,120
Speaker 1: This sounds like this person did exactly that because her

280
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,480
Speaker 1: child heard her say, if you put my son in it,

281
00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,080
Speaker 1: that's going to be a war. Well, number one, that's

282
00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,160
Speaker 1: a good mama right there. Again, it would be somebody

283
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,320
Speaker 1: that had to know her know how she would react.

284
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,640
Speaker 1: That's the only child she's got, and she is going

285
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,720
Speaker 1: to put herself between that baby and danger. She did it.

286
00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,600
Speaker 1: That's why they were on the sofa. I guarantee he

287
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,440
Speaker 1: was on the inside, and she was on the outside, and.

288
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,400
Speaker 2: Like you said about them knowing her phone number, how

289
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,840
Speaker 2: to contact her, where she lived, everything. This was like

290
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:19,240
Speaker 2: definitely either someone who was at that home that night

291
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:21,640
Speaker 2: or had been at that home before.

292
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,080
Speaker 1: And knew how to reach her. Because again you may

293
00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:26,640
Speaker 1: like I had a buddy down the street growing up.

294
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:28,840
Speaker 1: He would always just come to the house, knock on

295
00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,120
Speaker 1: the door and see if me and my sisters wanted

296
00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,680
Speaker 1: to come out and play. He never knew our phone number.

297
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,240
Speaker 1: So this is somebody that knew next level and they

298
00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,440
Speaker 1: did it the night before she went missing.

299
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:42,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, when we do stories like this one, I'll show

300
00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,400
Speaker 3: I like to and me outn you know, go kind

301
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:46,560
Speaker 3: of have it back and forth. I kind of like

302
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,520
Speaker 3: to play Devil's advocate a little bit, So I always

303
00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:53,280
Speaker 3: go as a mom in her situation. Like you said, Mac,

304
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:54,920
Speaker 3: you know, you may need money, you may not be

305
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,280
Speaker 3: able to know full rent this month. How do you

306
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:02,280
Speaker 3: say no to something like that? And I understand you

307
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,200
Speaker 3: get caught up and you know the risk, but it's like, okay, well,

308
00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,080
Speaker 3: how you know this is the only chance I have

309
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:08,640
Speaker 3: right now for my child to eat.

310
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:13,240
Speaker 1: That's right, And especially if you're doing something that's not

311
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,360
Speaker 1: hurting anybody. You're just having a card game. That's all

312
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,960
Speaker 1: you're doing. You're letting people come into your basement and

313
00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,560
Speaker 1: leave your basement, and leave your basement. Yeah, nothing has happened.

314
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,960
Speaker 1: Nobody got hurt, nobody got robbed, nobody got stabbed. It

315
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:34,360
Speaker 1: was gambling. It's easy to justify that, especially when you're

316
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,960
Speaker 1: trying to feed a child and she had a job.

317
00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,000
Speaker 1: But we all know, I mean, there are days I

318
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,160
Speaker 1: can put a new tire on my car, and there

319
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,040
Speaker 1: are days I might have to ride crazy for a week.

320
00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:47,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it.

321
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:54,080
Speaker 1: Happens. I mean, it happens. And especially if you don't

322
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,040
Speaker 1: have the support system. You don't have an extra adult

323
00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,800
Speaker 1: in the house helping, You don't have maybe family that

324
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,120
Speaker 1: has is it better than you, that can take him

325
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,399
Speaker 1: for a weekend and feed him while you can just

326
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,480
Speaker 1: go hungry this you know, you have no option as

327
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,760
Speaker 1: a mama. I mean, he's got to eat, especially at eleven,

328
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,280
Speaker 1: you know. But here's one thing that sticks out for me.

329
00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:23,600
Speaker 1: This case took at a minimum, a kidnapping, drive her somewhere,

330
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:29,199
Speaker 1: murder her, drive her somewhere else to to pose her body,

331
00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:34,760
Speaker 1: dismember her, cover her with a blanket, remove a manhole

332
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,199
Speaker 1: cover that weighed one hundred and fifty pounds, put it

333
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:43,200
Speaker 1: back and drive away. The last seven of those steps

334
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,479
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with accomplishing a murder. That's something

335
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,480
Speaker 1: that killer or killers wanted to happen, so they took

336
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:56,840
Speaker 1: extra time. And any time you do something extra, that's

337
00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,760
Speaker 1: an extra step, you might get caught. So when they're

338
00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,200
Speaker 1: dry her in their car, they could have had a wreck,

339
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,040
Speaker 1: they could have got stopped for speeding whatever. As they're

340
00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,800
Speaker 1: doing the murder, they could be seen, somebody could hear something,

341
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,399
Speaker 1: you know, throwing her out in the woods. All of

342
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,560
Speaker 1: these things. I mean, utility workers found her. So it's

343
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,200
Speaker 1: not like they're in a place people don't go. Yeah,

344
00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:22,000
Speaker 1: So anytime I see that added risk, we've got to

345
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:22,600
Speaker 1: factor that.

346
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,560
Speaker 2: Into I always like to say mac like, look, I

347
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,560
Speaker 2: went to Hardley University. Like I hardly know how to

348
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,120
Speaker 2: walk and choo gum, I like, I hardly know. There's

349
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:30,560
Speaker 2: a lot of.

350
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:32,960
Speaker 1: Stuff I don't know, right, we need to make sure.

351
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:39,040
Speaker 2: Feel free. But one hundred and fifty pounds manhole cover,

352
00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:41,879
Speaker 2: you know it was it was just in the woods

353
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,960
Speaker 2: enough that it was work, but not a lot of work. Right.

354
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,679
Speaker 2: So you know, when me and Fran had discussed this

355
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,480
Speaker 2: before and he brought up about what if this was

356
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:55,120
Speaker 2: like sending a message type of situation, and at first

357
00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,840
Speaker 2: I agree, but then I went well, to me, especially

358
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:04,000
Speaker 2: if talking to you like for how much we've discussed it.

359
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,560
Speaker 2: To me, it sounds like there's no question that she

360
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:08,800
Speaker 2: knew who these people were, because if you were going

361
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:10,680
Speaker 2: to send the message, you'd make you put her out

362
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,760
Speaker 2: on display. But it feels like they wanted her to

363
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,800
Speaker 2: disappear to the best of their ability to make that happen.

364
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 2: And to me, that says she was connected to them

365
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,880
Speaker 2: in some kind of way as to where she comes

366
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,840
Speaker 2: a missing They're going straight to these people.

367
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,240
Speaker 1: One hundred percent, and I have a question about that.

368
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:32,719
Speaker 1: So she's missing nine months, her hands and feet are missing,

369
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,800
Speaker 1: which could be you're just crazy and twisted and did that.

370
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,000
Speaker 1: It could mean you removed fingerprints. It could mean you

371
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,320
Speaker 1: took them as a calling card to show somebody. Look,

372
00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,200
Speaker 1: I made her disappear. They'll never find her. But here's

373
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:52,000
Speaker 1: her rings, right, So if they did it as intimidation,

374
00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,560
Speaker 1: which I believe what the night before was all about,

375
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,280
Speaker 1: if you've got a single Mama, with no man in

376
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 1: the house, you don't need to send four or five

377
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,480
Speaker 1: men over there. One would scare the daylights out of me.

378
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,439
Speaker 1: But then you follow up with a phone call just

379
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,480
Speaker 1: to make sure that I take you seriously and I

380
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,600
Speaker 1: threaten your child. It almost sounds like organized crime.

381
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,959
Speaker 2: Yes, And that's why I go with that second theory

382
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:21,320
Speaker 2: of this was a an organized hit in my opinion,

383
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,320
Speaker 2: you know, just because like you said, I mean, could

384
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,159
Speaker 2: someone be just the psychopathy is off the charts and

385
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,159
Speaker 2: they're just like I collect hands. Sure, but I just

386
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,720
Speaker 2: feel like we'd see there would be another case of

387
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:35,600
Speaker 2: this which I looked up, Like I looked up for

388
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,800
Speaker 2: the time for the decade in Baltimore. There was no

389
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,200
Speaker 2: other like hands and feet bodies in the more Jane

390
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,359
Speaker 2: does anything. So to me, I go they didn't want

391
00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,359
Speaker 2: the fingerprints to be identified. It just doesn't feel like

392
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,320
Speaker 2: this was just a crazy person cutting off people's hands

393
00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,320
Speaker 2: and feet. And also I guess it could have been

394
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:59,560
Speaker 2: possibly someone taking those hands and feet showing them to somebody,

395
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 2: but like, who who was that for it? If it

396
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 2: was intimidation, you know, And I don't think it would

397
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 2: be to show to your friends to brag about. So

398
00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 2: I just go those hands and feet were removed and

399
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 2: thrown away into a river or something like that.

400
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,400
Speaker 1: It could be Alvin, absolutely, But I'll tell you something,

401
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,560
Speaker 1: Franzille that always tickles me when I hear people say, oh,

402
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,360
Speaker 1: they cut off the hands so they couldn't be identified,

403
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,880
Speaker 1: but you left the face. So if she had been

404
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 1: found sooner, they absolutely would have known who it was.

405
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 1: And here's my other question. It seems to me that

406
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 1: once she was found, they identified her quick And my

407
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 1: question is, in nineteen eighty three, how did they do that?

408
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 1: There would have been no DNA, there'd have been no rings,

409
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,640
Speaker 1: no tattoos, no shoes, like, how did they do it?

410
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they said the body was badly decomposed.

411
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:57,199
Speaker 1: Oh nine months in a sewer. Absolutely, so absolutely.

412
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 2: I'm just as puzzled by that as well. But one

413
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 2: thing that I will say is based on some of

414
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,920
Speaker 2: the things that I saw from the BCPD database from

415
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy to twenty twenty, there are only about seventy

416
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 2: cold cases that are unsolved. So obviously, you know, listen,

417
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,919
Speaker 2: friends of Postman. One thing that Postman and detectives have

418
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 2: in common, well, two things They both say donuts, love donuts,

419
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 2: And two they both know that the mail never stops, right, Like,

420
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 2: so you're a detective, there's new bodies piling up on

421
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 2: your desk every day, so that makes it hard to

422
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 2: focus in on a cold case. But nine months of

423
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 2: no leads and you might not have as many unsolved

424
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,919
Speaker 2: murders as you think to go to, you know, in

425
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,680
Speaker 2: that timeframe. So maybe it was like you know, black women,

426
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 2: you know that they could get an age range on her,

427
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 2: this woman's been missing since this time, if they can

428
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 2: line up. I don't, mack, you tell me, is that

429
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 2: that's not DNA? Is it to line up you know,

430
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 2: decomp times as best as possible obviously as the element

431
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,880
Speaker 2: were tough, But like if they can say she's probably

432
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 2: been here nine.

433
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 1: Or so months, yeah, they would be able to estimate that.

434
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 2: Okay, So that takes you back to whoever was missing

435
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 2: nine or so months ago, So that'd be my best

436
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:14,399
Speaker 2: guess because like you said, I mean, the body was

437
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 2: horribly decomposed, so I don't think face was the easiest

438
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 2: thing to go off of.

439
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 1: And that's kind of what I was getting at, is

440
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 1: that that must be what it was. There was one

441
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:29,360
Speaker 1: person missing in that age bracket. You know that they could,

442
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:34,199
Speaker 1: I guess, take the totality of what happened, the proximity

443
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 1: of where she lived, where she was found, all those

444
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: sorts of things. I'm going to ask y'all this too.

445
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: And Franzille, my grandfather was a rural letter carrier, and

446
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,119
Speaker 1: you know he rains leet, hell or snow, carried that

447
00:23:53,200 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 1: bag all over. Criminals typically are lazy, So that's why

448
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 1: you hear things like somebody was found in a shallow grave,

449
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 1: because once they start digging that grave, they can't get

450
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 1: six feet, they can't get four feet, they get wore out,

451
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 1: they're tired, they're like it ain't worth it, and they

452
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: just do the best they can and cover somebody with debris.

453
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 1: This person drug a dead body and then removed the

454
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: manhole cover. So this is somebody again that took extra time,

455
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 1: extra strength to do what they thought was necessary. And

456
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 1: I agree with both of y'all to hide her identity forever.

457
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 3: So Mac, do you when you a case like this,

458
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 3: do you look at this case and go this was

459
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 3: a one man a one man job, or do you

460
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 3: think this was a one man job?

461
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 1: No, I don't I think this was more than one person.

462
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: I don't think so either, right.

463
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 1: And I think we know it again from the night before.

464
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 1: If you look at the last twenty four, the answer

465
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: is going to be there. And this sound to me

466
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: like you had one person driving and at least one

467
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 1: person shotgun and they kidnapped her. So either she was

468
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 1: walking to the bus, walking into her building, walking out

469
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: of her building. That's why it's so critical if we

470
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: can find out from Charles did she make it to work,

471
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: because if she didn't, that means the killer had at

472
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 1: least eight hours that day. If she didn't make it

473
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: to work, they only had a few So this was

474
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 1: a quick thing. But you figure one person's in the car,

475
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 1: one person pulls up to her, grabs her, gets her

476
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: in the car, and now has her under control, probably

477
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: with a firearm, and then they do what they do.

478
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,679
Speaker 1: They take her to whatever location is the murder scene.

479
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: So you have a primary scene. I believe where she was,

480
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 1: you know, tossed, was a secondary scene. I believe that

481
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: her hands and feet were taken to show somebody. And

482
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: I'll just make it simple. Let's just say it was

483
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: a drug dealing pimp. He's got two things he's running

484
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 1: and she saw something. She's sitting the scene, or she

485
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: said I won't out and if you don't let me out,

486
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell the police. Whatever. The focus became

487
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 1: on her and it, and it was very clear they

488
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 1: weren't going to let her out. She wasn't going to

489
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 1: survive it, even to the point they said, we'll get

490
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: you and your child. So I think it took more

491
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: than one person to get this done. She would not

492
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: have gone willingly. And there's no record that anybody was screaming.

493
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 1: There was no record that somebody saw somebody get kidnapped,

494
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: So that tells me I think it was soon after

495
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 1: she left the house.

496
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 2: I agree. And also I just don't think one person

497
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: lifted that manhole cover like you said.

498
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: I don't either, especially not after driving a dead body.

499
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, the criminals are lazy. This is razy. Yeah, one

500
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty pounds, it's not impossible, but nobody it's like.

501
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 2: And it's also to me, it feels like they looked

502
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 2: at whatever the scene is that they chose and picked

503
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 2: it ahead of time. They knew it, you know, like

504
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 2: a man in the area like to know you can

505
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 2: open this, and there's like a little pocket of space.

506
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 2: They to bring a blanket to cover her. I think

507
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 2: that they were confident that no one would ever find her,

508
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 2: you know, I think that they I think they felt

509
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 2: like they had gone the extra mile. And you know,

510
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 2: something make you bring up a good point where you go, yeah,

511
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 2: I mean, let's say these were for hire men. Well, yeah,

512
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 2: you would take the hands and feet, maybe so that

513
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 2: they can't find fingerprints, but also to prove to whoever

514
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 2: hired you it's done to just not take your word

515
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 2: for it, you know.

516
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: And here's the deal, friends, Hell, you know this because

517
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: you walk in front of the same houses every day,

518
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: You're going to know whether somebody had a party. They

519
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: don't normally have a lot of trash. Now they've got

520
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: eight bags out there, so you may recognize, oh, they

521
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: got a brand new dog, or this person just had

522
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: a baby. Like you're privy to these neighborhoods. There are

523
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: people that knew her landlord knew you know, the other

524
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,120
Speaker 1: folks in the neighborhood. There's a lot of times when

525
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: we have cases, prostitutes have a ton of information. They

526
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 1: know who's coming in and out of that neighborhood. So

527
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 1: like even we had the missing and murdered children in Atlanta.

528
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: Prostitutes gave great information. Has anybody picked you and wanted

529
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: you to act this way? Has anybody tied you up

530
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: this way? Has anybody pretended to cut your throat this way?

531
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: They have information no other segment in the community is

532
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: going to have. And if you go to them and

533
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: you have a good relationship and you understand their world

534
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: and they understand yours, then they will give you that information.

535
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: Her best friend, her landlord, some of her co workers.

536
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: They know things about her that would give us some

537
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: of this victimology and answer some of these questions.

538
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 2: Who are the friends who's home he went to? They

539
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: have parents, Their parents must know sharing. They must have

540
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: known Sharon Miller if they're comfortable enough to go over

541
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 2: to their house. And again, these are all things where

542
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 2: this information isn't readily available, really, And I just don't

543
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 2: know how deep the scope of investigation went in this case,

544
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: especially after nine months of being gone. I just don't

545
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: feel like if this wasn't a priority case, you weren't

546
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 2: following up on those kind of things. Also, in the

547
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 2: research that I did, Charles Miller said the night that

548
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 2: the last time he was in his home. Was the

549
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 2: last time he was in his home. If they like secked,

550
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 2: they like sealed it off yellow tape, and he was

551
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,239
Speaker 2: he never went back into his home after that night

552
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 2: that his mom never came back. So you know, did

553
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 2: they how thorough was their investigation, their sweep of the house,

554
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 2: Like you know, nobody there was nothing suspicious to be

555
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 2: found in the house. And it just was like, it's

556
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 2: weird that I couldn't find anything really about the crime scene.

557
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 2: I guess if you don't know, I guess we know

558
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 2: that she wasn't killed at her home.

559
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: I think they would have known that with the amount

560
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: of blood that would have taken. And again if they

561
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: transported her in their own car, I think again, I

562
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: think she was kidnapped. She was never taken to her house.

563
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: There would have been witnesses that would have seen that.

564
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: Knowing that there aren't men there in the early morning,

565
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: especially at dinner time, I don't think that would have happened.

566
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: I think they took her somewhere already picked out, and

567
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: either tortured her or did whatever they did, dismembered her,

568
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: and then dumped her. And here's the deal. You've got

569
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: to rule things in and rule things out. So we

570
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: have to look at was it gang related? Was it

571
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: organized crime? Was it a loan shark? Why would they

572
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: need to conceal her identity if it was to prove hey,

573
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: don't mess with us. When we say you owe us money,

574
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: you better pay, Or when we tell you we're going

575
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: to use your house for ill gotten gains, you better

576
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: be okay with it, because you know what happened to

577
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: shevon Miller. And then there's other things like was it

578
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: a saw, was it a jagged old knife like what

579
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: was used to dismember her hands and feet? That would

580
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: tell us too how much planning and perhaps where this

581
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: would have occurred. So if it's a circular saw, I

582
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: can tell you there's a secondary location for sure. If

583
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: it's just some jagged knife, it could have been in

584
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: the woods fifty feet for the manhole cover, but nine

585
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: months later you would have never known it.

586
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 2: Do we know what the cause of death?

587
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: We don't. Now they're in the skull, and then the

588
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: other bones that were there, you know there easily could

589
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: have been a gunshot wound if that is what happened

590
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: to her. But we know some type of straight edge

591
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: was used. So if her throat was just cut, we

592
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: wouldn't know that. Or if she was maybe stabbed and

593
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: they missed bones, we wouldn't know that.

594
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, that decomp was just so terrible. Yeah, this case,

595
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: this case, it really won since it was like a

596
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 2: hometown story. It stuck off to us very much. But

597
00:31:54,600 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 2: also it's you know, it feels like maybe forty years

598
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 2: ago this was maybe a solvable case with some manpower

599
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: behind it. You know, now there's been so much time.

600
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 2: Who knows how much you know, there's been all these advances,

601
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: you know, as far as like codis and all these

602
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 2: other things where you know, there's these databases and stuff

603
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 2: where you can match them with maybe another perpetrator. Because

604
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: to me, I feel like if this was a professional hit,

605
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 2: either that person's so good they've never been caught. But

606
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 2: if they have been caught, they're in some kind of

607
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 2: database if there was something left behind. But forty two

608
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 2: years is just like, I mean, who knows what's left?

609
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: Well, there wouldn't have been many cameras back then. There

610
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: was no DNA, so even if we had gotten the

611
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: blanket early, we wouldn't be able to match it to anybody.

612
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: The only thing they could have told you in nineteen

613
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: eighty three was whether the person was oh negative, ab positive.

614
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: Whatever they could do blood typing, but that was it.

615
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 2: So even the evidence that's available is kind of useless.

616
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 2: You're saying, well.

617
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: Right now, because it was in the environment that it

618
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: was in for nine months, there probably would be nothing

619
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:11,479
Speaker 1: usable there. And again there's no clear injury. Like sometimes

620
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: when you stab somebody, even the tip of the knife

621
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: can get stuck in a rib and break off. There

622
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: could be other evidence that that's what occurred, but in

623
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: this situation, I don't think that's what happened. I think

624
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: she might have been strangled and dismembered and tossed pretty quick.

625
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 2: So basically, you know, what we're hoping for is a

626
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 2: tip or a confession.

627
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: At this point, yes, somebody knows. I can tell you

628
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: they know because you're talking about a group of people.

629
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: And what happens over forty years is I might have

630
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: been loyal to you when I was twenty one. Well

631
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: I'm not loyal to you at sixty one. I'm not

632
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: afraid of you anymore. And maybe the person I was

633
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: afraid of is dead or in prison, because I will

634
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: tell you, maybe not for me, but most people that

635
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: ran in a group like that that would have done

636
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: this has gone to jail or prison for something, so

637
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: they're probably not unknown to law enforcement.

638
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and at this point there, I mean, they're like

639
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 2: in their seventies eighties, and I think that, Yeah, I mean,

640
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 2: you know, the whole snitching culture around stories like this,

641
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:25,879
Speaker 2: like you, like you just said, I mean, if I'm

642
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 2: twenty thirty years old, there's reasons for me, whether I'm

643
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,439
Speaker 2: in the life still or I'm afraid of people who are.

644
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 2: But at this point, anybody who does know something, this

645
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,240
Speaker 2: is just some horrible story from your youth that you remember.

646
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 2: I don't see if all this story needs is a

647
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 2: little bit of attention to get to that person. I

648
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 2: don't see why somebody who knows something wouldn't come forward

649
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 2: because you know, like, who are you protecting at this.

650
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: Point, Alvid, I can't agree more. In the bottom line

651
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: is this is not I'm gonna keep my uncle's illegal

652
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: activity a secret. I get that. But even the people

653
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,879
Speaker 1: that are now in their seventies or eighties, they had

654
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: underlins at the time, they had somebody that was in

655
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: their group that was fifteen. Well, you have somebody in

656
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 1: your community that would not only kill a young mom,

657
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: but cut off her hands and feet. I'm sorry, that's

658
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: something I tale. I mean, I understand having the back

659
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: of people that you're a writer, die, I mean, that's

660
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: your husband, that's your dad, that's your boyfriend, that's your brother.

661
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: I get it. But forty years when you've got a

662
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,439
Speaker 1: man sitting over there since he was eleven years old,

663
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: not knowing why this happened to her, he deserves answers.

664
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: Because I tried to get in touch with Charles too,

665
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: and I couldn't find him.

666
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I mean he was interviewed for an article

667
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 2: in a local newspaper that I got some information from.

668
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 1: So I mean, well, hopefully he'll hear this and reach

669
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: out to y'all.

670
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would hope that, and I would get back

671
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 2: in touch with you if that was to happen. But yeah,

672
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I wasn't able to find anything like a

673
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 2: independent charity or anything that I could reach out to

674
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 2: him personally about. I did look for. I didn't look

675
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: for that.

676
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: Alvin fran Sale, I cannot tell you what it meant

677
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,800
Speaker 1: to me to have y'all own Zone seven Field Michel.

678
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 1: So I just appreciate you both and I appreciate you

679
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: bringing sharing story to us.

680
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 2: Of course, we hope, we hope we can do some

681
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 2: good for sure.

682
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we're gonna keep working, so Alvin fran Sale,

683
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, thank you.

684
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 2: Matt Absol.

685
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I

686
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: always do with a quote. If one really wishes to

687
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 1: know how justice is administered, one does not question the police,

688
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: the lawyers, the judges, or the protected class. One goes

689
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:04,280
Speaker 1: to the unprotected and listens to their testimony. James Balwin.

690
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven. Mm hm