WEBVTT - Breakthrough [7] 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:05.840 The Butcher of Moss is released weekly absolutely free, but 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:09.000 you can binge the entire season now with iHeart True 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:13.160 Crime Plus exclusively on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:16.680 free listening and exclusive bonus episodes. So head to Apple 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:26.400 Podcasts search iHeart True Crime Plus and subscribe today. 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:30.280 The views and opinions expressing this podcast are solely those 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:33.520 of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:37.280 and do not represent those of iHeartMedia, Tenderfoot TV, or 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:41.479 their employees. This podcast also contains subject matter which may 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:44.880 not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:56.080 I have a lot of questions about this man. I 0:00:56.120 --> 0:01:00.680 find him strange. I'm always suspicious of people who are 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:04.280 a little too clean, too polished, and you don't really 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:11.440 know who they are. He is said to be intelligent, refined, 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:16.720 even elegant, and yet he spends his time roaming around 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:21.960 the train station area. Why does a man like this 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.080 hang out in a place like that? Why does he 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:28.720 hang out there? And why does he become the confidant 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:34.040 of all these women? It's bizarre. Through my research, I 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:37.840 was able to identify his son and established contact. It 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:42.280 went smoothly until I brought up the case, and at 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:46.480 that moment the tone changed and he asked me to 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:49.000 never pronounce the name of his father in our project. 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:53.800 And I told him that was fine, But unfortunately my 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:57.560 guarantees didn't suffice. And from that point on I saw 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:04.880 that he read all of my messages but fused all contact. 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:13.360 And again, why why all of the mystery called? What's 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:16.120 there to hide? What are we not supposed to find out? 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:25.920 I can't be mysterious? 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:35.239 The rest They disappearance of a woman from Mount Jacqueline. 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:41.680 The condition of the victims was sickening, and the question remains, 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:43.040 where is the killer? 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:53.359 From Tender for TV and I Heeart podcasts, I'm your 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:57.040 host Matt Graves, and this is Lea Monstre Season two, 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:00.079 The Butcher of mass. 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:02.480 Lazy Levitabricado Di. 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:07.120 And now the disappearance of a woman from Mont Jacqueline Leclerq, 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:08.360 thirty three years old. 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:10.640 Come at dievu Chateaubicour. 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:14.320 This young woman has short, light brown hair and blue eyes, 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:16.919 five feet three inches tall with a normal build. 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:18.360 She is French speaking. 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:23.120 You recall Jacqueline, the first victim we covered in this series. 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:26.240 She was a mother of four who was last seen 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:29.240 entering her apartment near the center of Mons at around 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:33.640 eight pm on December twenty second, nineteen ninety six. Shortly 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:36.720 before her murder, she had mentioned to her sister Georgette, 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.360 that she kept bumping into the same man at different 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:43.240 places around town. Here are Georgette's words from episode two. 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:50.480 About a year before her disappearance, she met someone in 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:54.160 the Wauxhall Park in monts She crossed path with him 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:58.680 a few times before, and at one point he approached 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:03.320 her for a conversation. She said, it didn't seem to 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:07.040 be trying to charm or flirt with her. It seemed 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:11.320 like a good person, respectful. She had mentioned this man 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:16.400 to me she found him rather nice, cultured and intelligent, 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:20.560 a pleasure to speak with. After meeting him in the park, 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:24.480 my sister ran into him a few more times. Jacqueline 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:28.560 was surprised by this, and I think that's why she 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:32.200 mentioned it to me. She always seems to bump into 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:35.600 him by chance, but at some point she felt that 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:40.800 these encounters were probably orchestrated, maybe even calculated. 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:45.200 This mystery man has been a key person of interest 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.880 in Jacqueline's disappearance, and Morgan has been attempting to identify 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:50.000 him for over a year. 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:53.480 If it's a monsieurityputicle, Actually, this guy seemed like a 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:57.200 decent gentleman. He wasn't hitting on her or anything. But 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:01.440 Jacqueline lived in a small quiet in Mons and she 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:04.640 kept bumping into him near her house or other places 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:09.120 in Mons. And because of the ietypical description of this man, 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:13.159 the stylish way he dressed and spoke, I went back 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:16.040 and reviewed my notes from all of my previous interviews 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:19.600 and realized that several people had talked about a man 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:20.640 of similar description. 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:25.920 When Jacqueline disappeared, her sister kept all of her belongings 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:28.840 and later went through them in detail with Morgan. When 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:32.119 he first started investigating the case, they included a simple 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:35.279 business card with a man's name, telephone number, and address. 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:38.520 At the time, it didn't have any significance, but as 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:41.920 Morgan began inquiring about an elegant, well spoken man who 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.159 spent time at Le Metropole, a woman he interviewed said 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:48.040 that it sounded a lot like someone her sister once described. 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:51.640 After several follow ups, he got a name and better Yet, 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:54.920 the second witness had the man's business card and was 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:58.760 still able to find it and share it with Morgan Bengo. 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:01.440 The second car art as a match with the first 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:05.440 card from Jacqueline's sister, along with a confirmatory description of 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:08.680 a man named George, not his real name for reasons 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:11.720 that will become evident. During the time of the murders, 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:14.520 he lived very close to the train station, and he 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:17.680 was a regular at Lo Metropol, so much so that 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:21.400 some people thought he worked there. Madame Gange, her staff 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.240 and many of the regulars knew him as well. George 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:27.480 was quite the character and claimed to have psychic abilities 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:29.000 to communicate with spirits. 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:35.160 He calls himself a medium, and it's true that he 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:37.400 was able to gain the trust of the people who 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:40.760 knew him and consulted with him. Apart from his talent 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:43.760 as a pseudo medium, he also had an attentive fear, 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:49.599 mostly for women, and especially women who were a bit lost. 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:57.520 He liked to play the good Samaritan and listen to them. Actually, 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.160 he had a little notebook, and in that notebook he 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:03.240 recorded all of his meetings. But the notes he took 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:10.000 included sexual remarks and rather hardcore remarks that didn't match 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:13.360 at all with the person he wanted to show himself, as. 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.320 I later asked Morgan where he heard that George recorded 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:20.800 sexual remarks about his clients. He confirmed that Madame Gorge, 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:23.080 the owner of La Metropol, told him this. 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.600 He was someone who was always very well dressed in 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:36.520 his early sixties. He spoke eloquently and his French was impeccable. 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:39.960 He sort of seemed out of place around the train station, 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:42.480 as it's not the kind of area where you'd expect 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:43.520 to see someone like him. 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:47.880 He often met his clients for psychic readings at La Metropol, 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:50.160 and virtually all of them were women. 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:53.680 Metropol. 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:56.960 He spent a lot of time at Le Metropol. He 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:00.040 sometimes helped serve drinks behind the bar, and he he 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:02.119 also did his readings there. But a lot of people 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:06.160 had doubts about his talents as a medium, And we 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:11.800 know that he knew several of the victims, Jacquelina. We 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.880 already know that he knew Jacqueline. I also got a 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:19.680 first hand testimony from Martin's hairdresser, who described seeing her 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:21.080 with a man of the same description. 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.720 You recall that Martin Bone was murdered the day after 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:29.280 visiting her hairdresser, Edoir. He confirmed to Morgan that Martin 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:32.280 had come to a salon accompanied by a man fitting 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:36.160 George's exact description. He couldn't remember the exact day, but 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:39.319 recall that it was not long before her disappearance. And 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:42.000 when you mention this, he said, quote, I think it 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:45.720 could have been a medium from Le Metropoldrogn. 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:49.679 Apparently during a reading with a woman Natalie Goda, came 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:53.120 into Le Metropol and walked up to them, and at 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:56.240 that point he lost his patience, told her off, and 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:58.679 then said what the fuck does she want from me now, 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:03.360 which was at all his normal vocabulary attitude, and it 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:06.040 really surprised the woman who was getting the reading. So 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:08.319 now we're already at three victims where we're certain he 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:08.720 knew them. 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:10.679 Camiki. 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:14.040 Also there was a friend of Carmelina Russo who thinks 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:16.360 she had contact with him, but I haven't been able 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:19.679 to crosscheck with another witness, and since I only have 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:22.640 one account, I can confirm it one hundred percent. Whereas 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:24.560 for the other victims, I'm sure. 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:29.360 We're certain that George personally knew the victims, Jacqueline, Martin 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.840 and Natalie, And although it's not one hundred percent confirmed, 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:36.640 we believe he knew Carmelina and most likely Pagonia as well, 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:50.679 since they both frequented La metro Pol. Now that we've 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:54.280 tied George to the mystery man seemingly stalking Jacqueline, I 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:57.520 asked Madame Gosh, the owner of Le Metropol, what she 0:09:57.600 --> 0:09:58.640 could tell us about him. 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:09.319 George was a smooth talker. He was incredibly gentle, very 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:17.040 gentle in all that he said. Without a doubt, the 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:19.640 man that she had met several times is the man 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:23.840 who killed her. But it's not George. Do you understand? 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:27.319 I asked her how she knows it wasn't him. 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:35.800 No, it's not George who killed the girls. Again, I 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:40.439 asked her how she knows this, But Trisi, I know 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:41.280 by intuition. 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:44.920 I think it's important to explain that Madame Ganche was 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:47.599 very close to George, so it makes sense that she 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:50.559 would defend him around the time of the murders. We 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:53.199 believe the two were in an intimate relationship. 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:54.280 She is. 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:01.040 To kill five women and cut them up? Do you 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:07.080 realize he had to have a special place to do that? Particularly, 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:10.600 George had family. He had children, and he had a wife, 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:16.960 and he had a brother. According to our research, George 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.400 did have a wife and children, but they were separated 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:21.840 at the time and he lived alone in his house 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:24.240 which was quite close to the train station and even 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:28.200 closer to the main dumb side. The private investigator Xavier 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.160 de cont has been helping me research persons of interest 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:31.840 in this case. 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:37.079 It's been difficult to find information about the men were 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:41.000 calling George. All I had at the start was a 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:43.840 date of birth, the fact that he had once lived 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:47.679 in France, and that he had a brother. So what 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:49.640 I can tell you is that at the time of 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:52.959 the murders in nineteen ninety six, George was sixty three 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:58.400 years old. Concerning his past, we know that during his 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:02.719 childhood he attended the Catholic boarding school, where, according to 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:06.199 a witness, he experienced some sort of sexual abuse, but 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:14.640 we can't verify this professional Concerning his professional life, it 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:17.800 was stated that he was involved with notary and estate 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:23.920 services where he organized property visits. During one of these visits, 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:27.119 a cadavera would have been found on one of the properties, 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.959 but he wasn't suspected of anything criminal related to that. 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:35.280 Since I had so little information, I did research in 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:39.400 genealogical databases to try to find out more about his family. 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.319 I learned that he came from a large family and 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:48.880 had several brothers and sisters, which led me to hope 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:51.160 i'd be able to find someone who could help me 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:54.600 locate him. As mentioned, I was able to make contact 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.920 with his son, which started off well until I mentioned 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:01.559 the case, and then he immediately he stopped talking and 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:05.080 since then I've not had any more contact with his son. 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:11.719 In summary, we don't have very much about George. We 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:14.560 know that at the time he was in his early sixties, 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:18.000 he had been married, but was living about from his family. 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:24.200 Given his connection with le Metropold, George was also questioned. However, 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:28.439 police didn't have anything implicating him in the murders. Apparently, 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:32.120 he was very interested in the case and followed developments closely. 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:35.560 In fact, he became somewhat of a go to person 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:38.079 for people wanting to know more about what was going on. 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:42.439 At one point, police worked with Belgium's national broadcaster to 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:45.839 produce a TV segment with a public appeal for witnesses 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:50.720 to come forward, and George was featured anonymously de Bacle. 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:54.559 When the television crew came to le Metropol to film 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:58.240 the public appeal, for witnesses. George drew attention to himself 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:04.959 and even welcomed the TV crew into his home. He 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:08.280 was very interested in the investigation and everything going on, 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:10.880 and he was making himself the center of attention. 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:16.360 Frederick lah, the investigative journalist who you've heard speaking English 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.240 and previous episodes, was part of my interview with Morgan. 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:23.240 As our discussion was in French, I've included the translation. 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.280 Satitude particular the jor Roki. 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:30.120 The particular attitude of George, who showed himself to be 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:34.920 more than helpful, raised the eyebrows of certain investigators and 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:39.320 they ended up having suspicions about him. He see miscoms 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:44.080 that he was inserting himself into the investigation and putting 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:45.040 himself forward. 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.360 To learn more about this, I spoke to the profiler, 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.600 doctor Danielle Zuquer, who you heard in episode five. 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:57.200 So the perpetrator is inserting himself in an investigation when 0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:06.240 he's looking for controlling the narratives and monitoring progress. This 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.760 is really important for him because then he can adapt 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:15.320 and another motive would be to mislead the police so 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:20.120 get them on the wrong track, and sometimes also to 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:22.600 because he's seeking for some attention. 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:23.360 Yeah. 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:29.240 For example, the BTK got involved in the investigation, and 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:33.360 I think it was trying to get attention and be 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:35.800 sure that the media as would talk about him. 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:41.320 Doctor Zuker is referring to the infamous BTK killer Dennis Raider, 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:44.360 who actually complained in a letter to a newspaper that 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.120 he felt the police in media weren't paying enough attention 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:52.160 to him. Morgan explains another worrying fact about George on. 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:56.920 Em There's another interesting detail I can add find any 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.560 no non set because tomorrow, at the end of nineteen 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:04.640 ninety seven, not long after becoming interested in the investigation 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:07.240 and filming the appeal for a witnesses. 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:09.400 Segment, George vas de Menege. 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:15.360 George relocated rather abruptly to Normandy in France, and this 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:19.480 was another element that investigators questioned why this hasty moved 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:19.960 to France. 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:24.280 In fact, we learned that he skipped down quickly without 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:28.760 even paying his rent, a hasty departure. Indeed, we also 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:31.040 learned that the house he moved into in France was 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:35.640 actually owned by Madame Ganche. It's obviously sensitive to discuss 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:40.160 George with Madame Ganche, based on their relationship at the time. Furthermore, 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:42.920 authorities also treated her as a person of interest in 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:46.360 the case, having known all the victims, although no further 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:50.000 action was taken. It's an interesting twist, she explains. 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.160 So they tried to find out if I had anything 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:58.080 to do with the butcher of Mond's case of and 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:02.680 I noticed it because they called me many many times, Nessir. 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.600 They'd come at night, they'd come in the morning, they'd 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:12.560 come at noon all the time, So many times they'd 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.200 come speak with me and ask me to repeat everything. 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:19.119 It was a strange experience for me. 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:23.800 Based on the physical evidence and witness statements, were confident 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:26.200 that George was the mystery man who appeared to be 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:30.280 stalking Jacqueline. Claiming to be a medium, he spent a 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:33.080 lot of time doing ratings with women that had similar 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:37.520 profiles as Jacqueline and the other victims. Through his personal notebook, 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.120 we know that he often recorded notes that were sexual 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.480 in nature, indicating his true motives and feelings about the women. 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:47.359 Based on matching his business card and description, were certain 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:49.800 that George knew a majority of the victims, given that 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:52.720 they were all regulars at Le Metropos during the period 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:56.000 he spent most of his time there. It's also concerning 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:58.320 that he seemed to be overly interested in the butcher 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:02.480 of mass case, inserting himself into the investigation, and then 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:06.760 as things began to heat up, he skipped town. Our 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:10.399 concerns regarding George and his possible involvement in the case 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.760 grew when we heard a new revelation from Madame Ganch. 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:16.760 It's about a conversation that he had with another man 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.040 at the bar and hotel l Metropoles not long before 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:20.800 he skipped town. 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:27.680 I served a coffee to the man in question, and 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:32.520 George was sitting opposite him, and I brought the coffee, 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:36.800 and when I arrived at the table, I heard this 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:39.200 man who was showing his hands to George sitting in 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:43.280 front of him, and he said, I have blood on 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:48.399 my hands. And George came up to the bar and asked, 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.200 did you hear what he said to me? And I 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:54.200 said I heard something, but then maybe he was just drunk. 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:56.680 And George said that the man just told him that 0:18:56.720 --> 0:18:58.040 he had blood on his hands. 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.920 We'll call the man with whom George supposedly had this discussion. 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:07.560 Danielle also not his real name, as he's not known 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.400 to the public and the case is still active, there's 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:13.640 some confusion about what exactly was said in this discussion. 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:17.720 Morgan originally pride this information out of Madame Gone, So 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:18.960 here's what he recalls. 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:23.560 Madame Gonsch told me that one day George was at 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:27.480 Le Metropol as usual, and another regular named Daniel arrived 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.560 and sat down with George and they were talking, and 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:33.760 that at one point Daniel showed his hands to George 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:40.240 and said his hands have killed more than once, or 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:43.320 something like that, and George was shocked, and he went 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:45.760 to Madame Ganch and asked her if he should report 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.400 him to the police. And she told George that since 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:51.000 Daniel said this to him, it was up to him 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.800 to decide what to do. And it struck me because 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:56.600 it's not the type of thing you hear every day. 0:19:56.800 --> 0:20:00.000 And so I started looking into both George and Danielle 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:03.920 to see if they knew each other outside of Le Metropol. Moreover, 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:06.800 they actually lived within hundreds of it from each other. 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:12.240 Substantiating that this conversation ever actually took place was difficult. 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:14.720 All we had to go on was the version Madame 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.639 Gone shared with Morgan, and a slightly different version that 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:21.440 she shared with me. However, the recent discussions with former 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:24.359 police officers we were able to confirm not only that 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:29.280 it took place, but much more. Frederick lah explains. 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:33.639 I was unaware of everything Morgan just shared about this 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:36.000 at the time of my original. 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:39.679 Investigation jose Ames avestigation. 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:44.560 However, I learned recently that George went to the police 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:47.480 at the time to declare that Danielle, a client of 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:51.919 Le Metropol, confided something very particular to him. 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:54.840 Or in the deficile did not feel more. 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:58.680 It's difficult to determine the exact timeline of this. Was 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:01.560 it before the discovery of the body parts or after, 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:06.119 most likely after, But in any case, he informed the 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:10.720 police and specifically the Gendarmerie of this first hand account. 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:13.080 De setimonial Mosque Rousse. 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:18.720 And so what I know about George is that he 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:22.640 denounced Daniel and set the police on his trail. 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:24.600 Pie dou Daniel. 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:29.280 As Frederick mentioned, George went specifically to the Gendarmerie to 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:33.240 report his conversation with Danielle. In Belgium at the time, 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:37.280 there were two main police forces, the Gendarmerie, a national 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:40.760 force under the Defense Ministry, and the judicial police, an 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:44.639 investigative force reporting in to the public prosecutor. If you 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:47.680 listen to season one of La Montstre, you'll recall that 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:50.320 these two police forces were in the throes of major 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:54.359 jurisdictional battles in the late nineties. It was practically open 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:58.520 war between the two forces. The judicial police were handling 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:01.960 the butcher of Man's case, but George reported his conversation 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:06.160 with Danielle to the Gendarmerie, who didn't bother to notify 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:08.560 the judicial police working on the case. 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:11.679 Leavetemonial. 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:14.680 George went to the Gendarmerie to tell them about the 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:19.120 conversation he had with Danielle. The gendarmes then summoned Danielle 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:22.359 to come for an interview to explain his purported statement 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:27.520 about having blood on his hands. So he must have 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:30.880 received a letter asking him to come to the Gendarmerie, 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:34.280 and so before going he had time to make evidence 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:38.040 disappear if there was any, and also to prepare for 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:43.480 the interrogation. So, according to what I've learned, this was 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:47.919 a major source of frustration for the investigators who were 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:51.520 working the case, because they think that summoning him wasn't 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:55.400 the right approach. He should have been questioned without notice, 0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:58.720 eventually with a warrant, ready to go for a search 0:22:59.240 --> 0:23:00.959 in the interest of the case, It wasn't the right 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:01.399 to push. 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:06.479 If you're investigating a potential serial killer, you obviously wouldn't 0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:09.200 want to tip him off before speaking with him. This 0:23:09.440 --> 0:23:12.480 mistake would never have happened had the judicial police in 0:23:12.600 --> 0:23:31.680 charge of the case received the initial tip. Until recently, 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:35.560 the existence of Danielle was completely unknown to us. The 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:37.720 fact that he was questioned as a person of interest 0:23:37.760 --> 0:23:41.160 in the case is not public knowledge. When we first 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:43.200 learned about it, I thought it would be just another 0:23:43.320 --> 0:23:46.560 rabbit hole. A vague remark about a drunk guy at 0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:50.399 a bar is hardly a scoop. But after we were 0:23:50.400 --> 0:23:54.080 able to identify him and start investigating his potential connection, 0:23:54.600 --> 0:23:58.440 it got interesting really quick. Danielle lived on the same 0:23:58.520 --> 0:24:01.240 street as the main dumb Side, less than five hundred 0:24:01.280 --> 0:24:03.520 meters from where most of the body parts were found. 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:07.320 He was a regular at Le Metropol and other bars 0:24:07.359 --> 0:24:11.040 around the train station area. Prior to when the murders started, 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:13.720 he'd been in a relationship that ended as a major 0:24:13.800 --> 0:24:16.679 disappointment for him when a woman he loved ended their 0:24:16.760 --> 0:24:21.040 relationship leaving him heartbroken. At the time of the murders, 0:24:21.200 --> 0:24:23.800 he was experiencing a difficult phase in his life that 0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:27.960 he himself described as his quote dark period, and just 0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:31.000 as the murders stopped, he started a new relationship with 0:24:31.080 --> 0:24:33.840 a woman who would later become his wife, and this 0:24:34.000 --> 0:24:38.240 woman's profile was very similar to the other victims. Morgan 0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:41.200 explains what we've learned about this dark period in his life. 0:24:41.600 --> 0:24:43.200 San Josu Nikias. 0:24:44.800 --> 0:24:46.600 He was a night owl who spent a lot of 0:24:46.720 --> 0:24:51.320 time in the establishments surrounding the station, and specifically Le Metropol, 0:24:51.720 --> 0:24:56.720 and he drank heavily tradiscret He was very discreet and withdrawn, 0:24:56.960 --> 0:24:59.920 and few people really knew him other than his first name. 0:25:00.560 --> 0:25:01.840 He also had a nickname. 0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:06.560 We decided not to publicly share Danielle's nickname, but awareness 0:25:06.600 --> 0:25:09.280 of it has proven to be valuable for investigation. 0:25:10.080 --> 0:25:12.640 He apparently had a strange way of relating to women. 0:25:13.840 --> 0:25:16.440 I can't say with absolute certainty that it was him, 0:25:16.640 --> 0:25:19.240 but I've heard accounts about a man of the same 0:25:19.320 --> 0:25:23.040 mental and physical description who had difficulties in his relationships 0:25:23.119 --> 0:25:30.960 with women. Plants the second. Multiple women complained about his behavior. 0:25:31.560 --> 0:25:34.280 That doesn't make him a killer, but it makes you 0:25:34.359 --> 0:25:36.920 ask what's he doing in these bars at night and 0:25:37.040 --> 0:25:38.560 why is he having problems with women. 0:25:39.920 --> 0:25:43.440