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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions ask if movies have

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Speaker 1: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zeph and

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Speaker 1: bast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: Our glorious podcast. Uh huh was built by dividities, by.

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Speaker 3: Us, we are gods, we are mean there. I love

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Speaker 3: how this movie opens with just like they're like, let's

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Speaker 3: get into the false history moment one. Let's not waste

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Speaker 3: a shred of time. Let's not waste a micro second

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Speaker 3: with the truth or the or scene setting. Let's just

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Speaker 3: cut to the shit we made up. Yeah, welcome to

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Speaker 3: the Bechdel Cast. My name is Jamie loftus aka God.

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Speaker 2: My name is Caitlin Droonte, also aka God, and this

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Speaker 2: is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional

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Speaker 2: feminist lens, using the Bechdel test simply as a jumping

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Speaker 2: off point. Jamie, what is it though?

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Speaker 3: Oh boy, not that it's going to come into play today,

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Speaker 3: but no, so so everyone knows. It is a media

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Speaker 3: metric originally created or co created by Alison Bechdel, a

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Speaker 3: queer cartoonist, co created with her friend Liz Wallace, which

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Speaker 3: is why it's often called the Bechdel Wallace test, because

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Speaker 3: that makes sense. It originally appeared in her really funny

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Speaker 3: classic comic collection Dix to Watch out For. Is originally

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Speaker 3: used in a queer context, it has since been sort

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Speaker 3: of co opted to examine how people of marginalized genders

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Speaker 3: speak to each other in general. So the version of

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Speaker 3: the test we use on the show is that there

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Speaker 3: should be two characters of a marginalized gender with names

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Speaker 3: who speak to each other about something other than a

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Speaker 3: man for at least two lines of dialogue. And you think,

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Speaker 3: surely that's not too much to ask, but then the

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Speaker 3: movie says, no, no.

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Speaker 2: Yes it is.

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Speaker 3: It's actually part too much ask. Grow up. And here's

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Speaker 3: another Elton John song. The problem. Okay, we're getting to

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Speaker 3: a popular request, extremely difficult movie to cover because there's

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Speaker 3: just so many angles from which this movie is fucked up,

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Speaker 3: and the soundtrack is imprinted on my brain and I can't, like,

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Speaker 3: I can never remove it. Unfortunately, it is like one

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Speaker 3: of one of those movies. We're talking about the Road

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Speaker 3: to El Dorado today, and we have so much to

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Speaker 3: talk about that I think we should just get our

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Speaker 3: guests in here.

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Speaker 2: Let's do it. He's a filmmaker and video essayist. You

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Speaker 2: know him from our episode on Dora in the Lost

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Speaker 2: City of Gold. So our resident expert on stories about

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Speaker 2: Gold cities. It's Jose Maria Luna.

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Speaker 4: Hi. Welcome back, welcome back, Thank you so much. I'm

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Speaker 4: so happy to be back here.

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Speaker 2: Oh there's so much to discuss.

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Speaker 4: I am the resident Gold City expert. Just any friend,

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Speaker 4: group by man, that's with my job I do.

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Speaker 3: I Yeah. If people listening art on the matread it

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Speaker 3: is one of my all time favorite Matreon episodes. It's

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Speaker 3: a blast.

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Speaker 2: I think, well we read, oh yeah, we unlocked it,

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Speaker 2: didn't we Yeah, we unlocked it on the main feed

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Speaker 2: a little while later.

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Speaker 3: It's simply that good. Yes, okay, Well you can also

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Speaker 3: listen for zero dollars and isn't that a treat?

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: They were so excited to have you back. You have

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Speaker 3: made almost you know, two or three years ago. Now,

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Speaker 3: I think you made a fantastic video that touched on

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Speaker 3: the Road to El Dorado significantly, called Decolonizing Adventure a

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Speaker 3: cinematic Road to El Dorado. So there was absolutely no

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Speaker 3: one else we were considering for this episode. You have

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Speaker 3: covered the topic so thoroughly, so if anyone hasn't seen

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Speaker 3: the video, we're gonna link it in the description. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean, I want to know about your history with

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Speaker 3: this specific movie and also what inspired you to put

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Speaker 3: together that video because it's so thoroughly research there's multiple locations,

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Speaker 3: it's just wonderful.

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Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much for the kind words. I

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Speaker 4: have an interesting experience with this movie. I might have

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Speaker 4: seen it in theaters, but I was like three years old,

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Speaker 4: but I did have it on BHS and it was

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Speaker 4: on regular rotation because ever since, like in kindergarten or whatever,

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Speaker 4: we learned Colombian mythology and one of the most popular

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Speaker 4: myths originated in Colombia is or the territory that later

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Speaker 4: came to be known as Columbia because it is older

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Speaker 4: than the country, is the one about El Dorado. And

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Speaker 4: I was always very happy as a kid that there

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Speaker 4: was a movie talking about it. But even as a kid,

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Speaker 4: it made me very mad because even when I was

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Speaker 4: very young and I was like very nerdy, I could

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Speaker 4: tell that the movie at no point really touched on

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Speaker 4: the actual history behind the myth, which is it's a

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Speaker 4: whole very interesting story altogether. So I would watch the

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Speaker 4: movie a lot, especially because it is very charming on

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Speaker 4: a surface level. Then the animation is very pretty to

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Speaker 4: look at. I remember the textures of the CGI gold

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Speaker 4: are like ingrained in my brain. I just wanted to

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Speaker 4: reach out and touch that, and even rewatching now it's wild.

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Speaker 4: I'm always like thinking about how much it influenced my

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Speaker 4: like games like my play time, the whole thing with

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Speaker 4: the controlling the jaguar thing, or the I remember the

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Speaker 4: ledge from which they throw the gold. I remember recreating

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Speaker 4: stuff inspired by that on like the bathtub with like

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Speaker 4: the faucet. I don't know, a lot of this stuff

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Speaker 4: is like ingraining my brain, but I remember as a

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Speaker 4: kid the movie frustrated me. So I have a long

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Speaker 4: history of really engaging with the mythology, and this is

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Speaker 4: this myth is very particular because it's not it's not

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Speaker 4: an indigenous myth, right, it has a whole different story altogether,

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Speaker 4: but it is still like a myth and it was

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Speaker 4: originated here, and it is so often, as I remark

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Speaker 4: on my video, divorced from its setting. I enjoy talking

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Speaker 4: about it, and we here, particularly in Boda, we have

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Speaker 4: I'm Colombian. I don't know if we mentioned that the subtext,

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Speaker 4: but we have a very close relationship with the concept

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Speaker 4: of El Dorado, and that inspired me to make the

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Speaker 4: video in the first place, because I was like, oh,

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Speaker 4: this is a cool little history that I would love

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Speaker 4: to share. And I also have an interesting relationship with

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Speaker 4: a lot of the stuff that I talk about in it,

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Speaker 4: so it was like, yeah, we should re examine these things,

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Speaker 4: especially because it is such a It is one of

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Speaker 4: those movies that is like very beloved by a certain

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Speaker 4: millennial demographic. It's like very nostalgic to them, and including

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Speaker 4: I guess myself, it is nostalgic to me. I don't

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Speaker 4: belove it, but it is one of those movies that

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Speaker 4: people cheat us if it was like a like a

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Speaker 4: hidden jam. Yeah, that is sort of like an underrated classic.

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Speaker 3: The narrative, Yeah, because it flopped in its time and now, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it feels like in the last even like five years,

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Speaker 3: there's like a huge contingency of people who are like,

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Speaker 3: actually it's it's awesome. You're like, no, we can, we can,

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Speaker 3: you know, we can lead.

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Speaker 2: To the point where a flop it's okay, to the

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Speaker 2: point where when I was on the Shrek Tannic tour

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Speaker 2: a few months ago doing the show in London. On Shrek,

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Speaker 2: I was doing this section on the co director of Shrek,

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Speaker 2: which is a woman and what's her name I don't remember, oops,

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Speaker 2: but she had previously worked on the Road to El Dorado.

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Speaker 2: And as soon as I said that in front of

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Speaker 2: a crowd of people, everyone was like whoo. And I

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Speaker 2: was like, wait a minute, do people like that movie? Because,

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Speaker 2: as we'll discuss in a moment, it like missed me.

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Speaker 2: I'm like too old of a millennial to have cared

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Speaker 2: about it. So I was like, wait a minute, should

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Speaker 2: we cover this on the podcast? And people were clapping

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Speaker 2: and cheering, So yeah, here we are. I mean it

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Speaker 2: really does.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like there is a huge I mean, most of

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Speaker 3: the videos that exist about the Road to El Dorado

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Speaker 3: on YouTube, it was interesting going back, are pretty uncritical

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Speaker 3: and are like this it's like economically queer movie, which

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Speaker 3: it isn't, but I get why, you know, but like

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Speaker 3: they're like, look it. This is like it's actually good.

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Speaker 3: And the best I can say for it is that

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Speaker 3: it is unusual for a children's movie of that era.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of things that are not in most

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Speaker 3: children's movies, including just I mean, the theme of colonialism

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Speaker 3: in general is very prevalent. But also I think one

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Speaker 3: of the hornier cartoon movies I've ever seen in my life.

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Speaker 3: Like it is absurdly horny. Two the characters canonically fuck,

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Speaker 3: which I all stuple times, yeah, which I do, I do?

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Speaker 3: I do? Remember, Sorry, Jose, we didn't need to cut

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Speaker 3: you off as yeah.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I just thought the conversation was flowing.

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Speaker 3: We just wanted to talk about the fucking as quickly

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Speaker 3: as possible.

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Speaker 4: When I was showing this movie to my boyfriend, who

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Speaker 4: had never seen it, at one point I was like, wait,

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Speaker 4: does the villain have like such a slutty waste? And

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Speaker 4: he was like, they all have slutty waste, yeah, like

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Speaker 4: they're snatched. It's wild.

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Speaker 3: It's also the fact, I mean this this movie ticks

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Speaker 3: all of the boxes of colonial completely underthought story. But

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Speaker 3: the thing that really struck me this time was I

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Speaker 3: was like, Okay, let's look into the voice cast because

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Speaker 3: it is just like nonsensical top to bottom, Like the

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Speaker 3: guy who voices Checkle Khan is Irish Italian. You're like what,

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Speaker 3: Like it was like so absurd, like and then even

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Speaker 3: the colonizing carearacter is like they couldn't be bothered to

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Speaker 3: find even a Spanish actor, Like it was like, no,

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Speaker 3: a British guy and an American guy and they're in love,

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Speaker 3: and then that you're just like, uh huh uh huh huh.

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Speaker 3: Jim Cummings plays Quarte. Also, the fact that I mean

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Speaker 3: of this movie is many crimes. The fact that her

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Speaker 3: Non Cortez, who you know you can trace twenty million

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Speaker 3: deaths too, is the secondary villain of the story. Wild

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Speaker 3: absolutely nuts. Well, okay, okay, Caitlin, what's your history with

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Speaker 3: this movie.

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Speaker 2: I had never seen it before. Interesting, it came out

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Speaker 2: in two thousand. I was a teenager at that point,

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Speaker 2: so I was like, I can't be watching animated movies

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Speaker 2: right now. I'm too cool for that.

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Speaker 3: Ain't a baby.

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Speaker 2: And then, as I've discussed on the show before, a

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Speaker 2: few years later, I came back around and I was like, no,

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Speaker 2: actually animating awesome. I'm eighteen, but I'm the baby still

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Speaker 2: and I've loved animated movies ever since. But there was

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Speaker 2: that period of a few years where I missed, like Mulan,

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Speaker 2: I missed any movie from like nineteen ninety eight till

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Speaker 2: like two thousand and three or four, with the exception

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Speaker 2: of like Pixar movies and any other like. As soon

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Speaker 2: as a lot of animated movies moved to CGI.

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Speaker 3: Adults were allowed to see. I mean, I would argue

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Speaker 3: that Wally is not for children, it's for adults. It's boring.

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Speaker 3: I've never met a sink. I mean, not that I'm

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Speaker 3: around meeting children all the time, but like my niece,

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Speaker 3: my cousin tried to put on Wally for my niece

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Speaker 3: and she was like, what the fuck is this like

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Speaker 3: Hotel Transylvania three again, please, Like, that's a movie for children?

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, Wally. Come on. When I was like eleven

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Speaker 4: and I saw it in theaters and I cried, And

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Speaker 4: I remember telling the kids at school, oh, I loved

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Speaker 4: Wally so much. And someone was like, nothing happens in Wally, weirdo,

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Speaker 4: And I was like, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 3: It's beautiful. I mean, it's we should cover it. It's

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Speaker 3: basically an art movie being marketed as a children's movie.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, it's Hotel Transylvania three. I passed. I passed

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Speaker 3: a restaurant the other day that it was so genius.

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Speaker 3: They just had Hotel Transylvania three playing just on the

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Speaker 3: TVs and it was full of families. Because there is

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Speaker 3: something really potent about Hotel Transylvania three to children, and

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Speaker 3: it is the third one. And I don't know why,

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Speaker 3: but my cousin, I mean, she's really sick of it,

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Speaker 3: and she's like, they put something in this movie. They

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Speaker 3: put something that is it's like a whistle that can

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Speaker 3: only be heard by dogs. Like adults cannot understand the

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Speaker 3: raw appeal of Hotel Transylvania three. Listeners with kids, please

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Speaker 3: let us I'm just curre, or you just DM me directly.

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Speaker 3: Does your kid also watch Hotel Transylvania three five times

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Speaker 3: a day? Because it seems like a common, an underdiscussed

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Speaker 3: plague that is affecting our culture.

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Speaker 4: Get there on that.

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Speaker 3: Oh sorry, and I should say it's Hotel Transylvania three

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Speaker 3: summer vacation.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, we should have covered it this past summer. Well,

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Speaker 2: I mean next summer.

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Speaker 3: I guess Dracula at the Beach. I understand. I understand

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Speaker 3: why I would be laughing if I was seven, and

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Speaker 3: maybe I would just be laughing in general. I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me tell I'll tell a very quick story

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Speaker 2: and then we'll get back on track. I went to

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Speaker 2: go see Paranormal Activity three, I think, in theaters with

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Speaker 2: my friends. This was many years ago, and I quickly

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Speaker 2: discovered that there were creepy children in Paranormal Activity three,

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Speaker 2: and I cannot. I can't do creepy children in movies.

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Speaker 2: So I walked out. I almost never walk out of

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Speaker 2: a movie in a theater, but I was like, I can't.

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Speaker 2: WHOA And I walked into a screening of Hotel Transylvania one,

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Speaker 2: I believe. And the thing is, it wasn't three D

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Speaker 2: and I did not have three D glasses. So I

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Speaker 2: sat through a three D screening of a Hotel Transylvania one,

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Speaker 2: walking in probably like twenty or twenty five minutes after

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Speaker 2: it had already started, and sat through the whole thing.

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Speaker 3: And did you love it? Question Mark?

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Speaker 2: Did she love my favorite movie? Now? Yes? Anyway, it

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Speaker 2: was that's my that's my exposure to Hotel Transylvania.

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Speaker 4: Incredible.

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Speaker 3: That's I am now looking at And it was made

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Speaker 3: by oh gosh, I hope I'm saying his name right, Uh,

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Speaker 3: Gendy Tartakovski. And now I understand because he made Dexter's

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Speaker 3: Lab and Samurai Jack and like he does put a

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Speaker 3: secret ingredient in his stuff. He did Powerpuff Girls, like okay,

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Speaker 3: so they yeah, had no idea. Yeah, he's directed all

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Speaker 3: three all four? What four? There's four Hotel Transylvania.

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Speaker 2: That's how many Shreks there are.

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Speaker 3: It's wild that he's like.

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Speaker 2: Until Shrek five comes out soon.

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Speaker 3: I would say he's like a really he's a fine artist,

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Speaker 3: and yet he is also a respected Okay. Anyway, now

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Speaker 3: that we've fully talked about Hotels Transylvania three summer vacation,

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Speaker 3: it's time.

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Speaker 2: To get back to El Dorado. I had never seen could.

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Speaker 4: Have known watch it for.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, it was part of it's part of the prep,

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Speaker 3: part of the home in the prep.

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Speaker 2: No, but I had never seen the Road to El

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Speaker 2: Dorado before, and I was expecting bad things from a

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Speaker 2: movie from two thousand, but not as bad as what

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Speaker 2: we see in this movie. So I'm very excited to

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Speaker 2: talk about it. Jamie, what's your history?

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Speaker 3: So unfortunately this is a Three Bears situation where I

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Speaker 3: was the exact right age too. I like this movie

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Speaker 3: was marketed to me. I was like six or seven

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Speaker 3: when this came out, So yeah, I am assuming I

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Speaker 3: saw it in theaters. I remember that. My really, my

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Speaker 3: main takeaway was I loved the soundtrack to this movie

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Speaker 3: so much. I remember that like my aunt somehow found

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Speaker 3: a like I loved it so much that I received

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Speaker 3: a karaoke CD that was like unlicensed. I have no

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Speaker 3: idea where she found it, but my aunt like gave

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Speaker 3: me and my brother the karaoke CD to the Road

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Speaker 3: to El Dorado for Crispas that year. Yeah, it's weird.

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Speaker 3: I mean it's weird because I didn't feel super attached

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Speaker 3: to the story. I remember thinking like parts were funny.

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Speaker 3: I generally liked the movie, but it was the soundtrack

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Speaker 3: hit really hard for me, my brother and I still yeah,

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Speaker 3: my I have like a memory of my brother who

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Speaker 3: was like three when this came out, and he used

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Speaker 3: to sing the theme song by heart, but like with

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Speaker 3: baby brains, so he would he would say like one

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Speaker 3: thousand years oh, like he just couldn't do the g sound.

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Speaker 3: So I have I have a lot of nostalgia attached

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Speaker 3: to this movie because it was something that my brother

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Speaker 3: and I both enjoyed together. However, it is I mean,

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Speaker 3: what is I think really why I'm glad the film

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Speaker 3: failed is because while you know, if you learn and

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Speaker 3: you educate yourself as you get older, it's really quickly

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Speaker 3: clear that this is a pretty like dangerous approach to storytelling,

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Speaker 3: and it is completely based in colonial and narratives. There's

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Speaker 3: narratives here that are just taking four hundred year old

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Speaker 3: colonial texts as reality. There's the idea that like it

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Speaker 3: is can into this world, that Miguel and Julio are

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Speaker 3: smarter than everyone around that I mean, all of these

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Speaker 3: things that we'll get into today. But what struck me

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Speaker 3: is that at the time, I had not seen any

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Speaker 3: media that would contradict this narrative. So I just didn't know.

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Speaker 3: And it's like embarrassing to admit that, but it is true.

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Speaker 3: I think it's true for a lot of Americans just like,

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Speaker 3: I mean, just like were poorly educated intentions so on

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Speaker 3: indigenous culture and on colonizer narratives. And I mean, my

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Speaker 3: my first favorite movie was Pocahontas, which is a movie

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Speaker 3: we will one day cover on this show. And so

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Speaker 3: I was like, I you know, was drinking the colonial

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Speaker 3: kool aid with these kinds of stories, and it's embarrassing,

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Speaker 3: but it's also like it's it's on you. I mean,

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Speaker 3: Jose you sort of say this in the conclusion to

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Speaker 3: your video, It's on you to educate yourself and remove

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Speaker 3: your like I would never in my life show Pocahontas

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Speaker 3: or The Road to El Dorado to a kid. Now,

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Speaker 3: you know. It's it's because I think part of the

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Speaker 3: problem with these movies is that they are well made.

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Speaker 3: I understand why people like them, and that's what makes

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Speaker 3: them dangerous. So I'm hoping that, yeah, by like having

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Speaker 3: these discussions and by like continuing to educate myself and

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Speaker 3: encourage other people, like it's that the legacy of these

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Speaker 3: movies will be single generation and that we're not going

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Speaker 3: to have to have like decolonize this movie that was

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Speaker 3: just like I had an addictive soundtrack because Elton John, like,

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Speaker 3: why there's I Yeah, so I did. I really I

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Speaker 3: had a lot of nostalgia for this movie and have

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Speaker 3: intentionally not revisited it in at least ten years because

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Speaker 3: it's so deeply uncomfortable to watch and also have like,

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Speaker 3: you know, your little baby brain being like this song

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Speaker 3: is awesome, and then you read the lyrics and you're

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Speaker 3: like no, it's not. There's a there's a song in

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Speaker 3: this movie called sixteenth Century Man. I don't believe it

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Speaker 3: shows up in the text. It might be during the

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Speaker 3: credits or something, but it is like unbelievably racist, and

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Speaker 3: it is just like Elton John singing one of the

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Speaker 3: most racist songs I've ever heard. Yeah, this movie like

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Speaker 3: it's bad for the world, and it's the fact that

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Speaker 3: it is. So I mean, let's get into it. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's my that's my confession.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we are products of our environment. So let's

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Speaker 2: take quick break and then we'll come back to do

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Speaker 2: the recap. And we're back. Here's the recap. I will

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Speaker 2: place a content warning as we will be discussing anti

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Speaker 2: indigenous tropes, racism, violence, things of that nature. We open

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Speaker 2: on a sequence slash Elton John song about how the

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Speaker 2: gods built El Dorado, which is, according to this movie

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Speaker 2: and many other stories, a real place. It's a marvelous

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Speaker 2: city made of gold. Then we cut to Spain fifteen nineteen,

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Speaker 2: where Cortes and his conquistadors are about to travel to

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Speaker 2: the New World to quote unquote search for gold aka

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Speaker 2: to colonize steel land in resources, to rape murder.

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Speaker 3: This is a wild trend during this period of animation

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Speaker 3: because we like, you know, Hernan Cortez was a very

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Speaker 3: real person and murdered millions of people, like we're tying

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Speaker 3: a Hitler grade villain appearing in the cartoon movie. But

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Speaker 3: this is something that I also it reminded me of

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Speaker 3: Genghis Khan and Mulan like a real life character. It's like, well,

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Speaker 3: if you're putting this movie in such a specific moment

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Speaker 3: with a real life, famously colonial murderer, would you not

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Speaker 3: want to get a single fact right? Like why put

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Speaker 3: it in such a specific context if you weren't going

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Speaker 3: to bother?

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Speaker 4: I don't know. And I think, like, on that same note,

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Speaker 4: it is interesting how from the very first moment the

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Speaker 4: movie is already having that like loose approach to like

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Speaker 4: a very a very delicate history in that in a

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Speaker 4: very subtle way, and it is that the city canonically

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Speaker 4: is named El Dorado, which is, you know, it's a

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Speaker 4: Spanish term in which we'll probably get into the whole

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Speaker 4: detail later, but it is. It is interesting how from

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Speaker 4: the very get go it kind of like acknowledges that

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Speaker 4: it is a white perspective on ostensibly a story set

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Speaker 4: in like pre conquest America's so with that and the

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Speaker 4: immediate introduction of Alancortez, who is not like necessarily portray

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Speaker 4: in a positive way, but it is. It is so

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Speaker 4: loose with very real history without ever taking that seriously,

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Speaker 4: and it's all like a fun ramp and whatever. But

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Speaker 4: the undertones are very they're sinister in a way.

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Speaker 3: I agree. It's like it's not like he is shown

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Speaker 3: as a good person. I mean this racist song I

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Speaker 3: was talking about sixteenth century, they're like Cortez, bad Cortez,

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Speaker 3: we don't like him, but like he's never shown to

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Speaker 3: be worse, Like it's implied that Chukal Khan is worse

396
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Speaker 3: for sure than a real person who was a career

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Speaker 3: genocide er.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's absurd. And also going through the history behind this,

400
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Speaker 3: it was like I learned stuff because I have been

401
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Speaker 3: so under educated about this period of history.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so we learn about this upcoming conquest. Meanwhile we

403
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Speaker 2: meet two Spaniard dudes, Tulio voiced by Kevin Klein and

404
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Speaker 2: Miguel voiced by Kenneth Brownow it's.

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Speaker 3: Just I will say they do have chemistry together. I

406
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Speaker 3: guess that, like I just as an animation head. I

407
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Speaker 3: was like, it sounds like they're in the same room together,

408
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 3: and they were, which is good approach to animation. That's

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Speaker 3: how they record the dialogue for Bob's Burgers. I feel

410
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 3: like you can feel it. Oh yes, yes, that said

411
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 3: the movie is dangerous. Yeah.

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00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

413
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Speaker 2: So they are gambling via some dice game and they

414
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Speaker 2: win a map to El Dorado. So already side note here,

415
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,119
Speaker 2: but the movie starts out very similar to the way

416
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:29,400
Speaker 2: Titanic starts out, because we open on a hidden treasure

417
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Speaker 2: of sorts either the city of El Dorado or the

418
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:37,360
Speaker 2: shipwreck of the Titanic. We meet the rich villain Cortes

419
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Speaker 2: slash col and we meet a couple of scrappy guys.

420
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Speaker 2: One of them's blonde, one's brunette, and they are gambling

421
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Speaker 2: and they win something that gets them closer to this treasure,

422
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Speaker 2: a map or tickets to the Titanic.

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Speaker 4: So we got man departing from Europe to the New World.

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Speaker 2: To get on a ship to go to the.

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Speaker 4: Whoa, oh my god, makes you think I hope they

426
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Speaker 4: am here. Yeah.

427
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Speaker 2: Here, that is where the similarities and because so the

428
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 2: townspeople discover that Tulio and Miguel had been cheating and

429
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Speaker 2: playing with loaded dice, so they have to run away

430
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 2: and they end up on Cortes's ship, where they are

431
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 2: discovered and imprisoned for being stowaways, but Tulio and Miguel

432
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 2: managed to escape in a lifeboat along with Cortes's horse Altivo,

433
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,880
Speaker 2: who is voiced by Scooby Sorry.

434
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 4: I know, Frank Welker.

435
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, we've brought up Frank Welker quite a bit in

436
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 3: the show, and it is fun to find the Frank

437
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 3: Welker where it's like and this horse, there's one man

438
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 3: and he can be any animal. So yeah, I think

439
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 3: we should be asking Frank Welker to issue a statement

440
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 3: disavowing himself from the movie. But I was like, of course,

441
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 3: he's the horse.

442
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 4: I do love the design of the horse. He's like

443
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 4: a little chonky and he has like this like his

444
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,360
Speaker 4: face almost looks like a cow facing. How they over

445
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 4: emphasize that, Yeah, I don't know. I love the expressions

446
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 4: on that horse. I also had the Burger King toyo

447
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 4: of the horse as a kid, and I think I

448
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 4: had all the toys and watching the movie, I just

449
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 4: feel like I'm more familiar with the toys than with

450
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 4: the animation design, so it's a little bit weird. Anyway,

451
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 4: I love the design of the horse and Frank Welker

452
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 4: did a great job. She should disavow it, as you say,

453
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 4: you should this himself.

454
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 3: The other beloved Bachtel cast stand by that is in

455
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 3: this movie is Tobin Bell. And wait, Caitlyn, that's Jigsaw

456
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 3: is in the Road to El Dorado, and we like,

457
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 3: do have to talk about it. It's a small part

458
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 3: because I have no idea who this is. Tobin Bell

459
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 3: as Zara Goza, a sailor on the voyage to the

460
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 3: New World of El Dorado and the original owner of

461
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 3: the map, which he loses to Tulio. So he's in

462
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 3: the dice game.

463
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, he's the guy who disc the ruse, which.

464
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 3: Is kind of wild because in the Road to Elorado

465
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 3: he's playing a little game.

466
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 2: He loves to play a little game.

467
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 3: Tobyn Belt like was not reading the script carefully enough.

468
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 3: He's just like, oh, a little game. This is my wheelhouse. Yeah,

469
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 3: I'll be in one scene and there's going to be

470
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 3: a little game. So that's where the fun facts end.

471
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 3: But yes, Scooby and Jigsaw managed to be in their

472
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 3: Road to.

473
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 2: El Dorodo amazing.

474
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

475
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:37,479
Speaker 2: Well, okay, so the characters Tulio and Miguel, they end

476
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 2: up on the lifeboat with the horse. They spend a

477
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 2: few days stranded at sea, and they nearly die, but

478
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 2: then they eventually make it to land. The movie isn't

479
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 2: very specific about where they are, but Jose you mentioned

480
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 2: in your video that it's meant to be present day Mexico.

481
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 4: I think it is. The I mean, the aesthetics are

482
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 4: of it all over the place. I noticed that at

483
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 4: one point they get like attacked by piranhas, which you

484
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 4: you don't get those in meso America. But I think

485
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 4: like the implication, especially because the ship was headed to Cuba,

486
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 4: is that they are somewhere in the Mexican territory, and

487
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 4: all the aesthetics of the culture are very much like this,

488
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 4: like Mayan, Aztec, all mech even like hybrid. Yeah, so

489
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,719
Speaker 4: I think it is. That's why I say it's in

490
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 4: present day in Mexico, but.

491
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 2: It is vague, like the movie is not specific about.

492
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, it does feel, I mean and hosaia. I'm interested

493
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 3: in talking about it more in the discussion, but that

494
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 3: there is a lot of YadA YadA in the way

495
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 3: indigenous culture is represented and multiple cultures are rolled into

496
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 3: each other in a way that is just like, well,

497
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 3: how are how is like a white American gonna will

498
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 3: this seem authentic to a white American that has never

499
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 3: learned anything about this?

500
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 2: Right?

501
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 4: And it probably will.

502
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the speaking from experience. I was not I

503
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 3: did not have questions at the time, Like so.

504
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, So they land and Tulio still has the map

505
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 2: to El Dorado, so they embark on a quest to

506
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 2: find the legendary city and steal its gold. That is

507
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 2: like their specific goal here.

508
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 4: They're literally colonists, Yeah.

509
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 3: For sure, big time.

510
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: And they just so happened to very conveniently land exactly

511
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 2: where the starting point of the map is. So that's

512
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 2: nice for the plot of the movie, and we get

513
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 2: a montage of them traveling. They're following the map, they're

514
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 2: reaching the different landmarks, and they finally arrive at what

515
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 2: they think will be the city of El Dorado, which

516
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 2: turns out to be a big statue with some images

517
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: carved into it, and they think they've been duped, but

518
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 2: it turns out that the entrance to the city is concealed.

519
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 2: Then group of indigenous warriors show up. They are chasing

520
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 2: a woman who seems to have stolen something, and the

521
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 2: warriors take Miguel Tulio and the woman. This is cell

522
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 2: by the way, voiced by Rosy Perez. They take them

523
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 2: into El Dorado, this magnificent city of gold inhabited by

524
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 2: a thriving community of indigenous people. Miguel and Tulio are

525
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 2: seemingly taken as prisoners, but then zeklcn, the high priest

526
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: of the city.

527
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 3: Famous Irish Italian village Chaco Khan unbelievable. This is like

528
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 3: just flagrant, flagrant anyways.

529
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: So he announces that these two men are actually gods

530
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 2: whose arrival they have been awaiting for a long time

531
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 2: and also worth mentioning here. We'll talk about it later

532
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 2: as well. But everyone, no one can understand each other

533
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 2: because the pre contact indigenous people are speaking the same

534
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 2: language as the Spaniards, which is English.

535
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 3: We all speak yeah, I mean, it's it's Pocahontas all

536
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 3: over again. We're like, oh, we all speak contemporary American English,

537
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 3: right right.

538
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 4: Well, Pocahontas was like bold about it. It was like

539
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 4: it's magic. They can understand each other with magic. Here

540
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 4: they don't even bother.

541
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 2: They don't even bother to explain it.

542
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, but magic is real in this world too, like

543
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 3: it's very fast and loose with like when magic is

544
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 3: and is not real, smoothie socks. All right, well, let's keep.

545
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 2: It anyway, right. So then Chief Tenebuck voiced by Edward

546
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 2: James almost introduces himself, though he is skeptical that Tulio

547
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 2: and Miguel are divine beings and he wants them to

548
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: prove it. And then, by mere coincidence, Tulio and Miguel

549
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:02,479
Speaker 2: seem to stop a volcano from erupting, so the people

550
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 2: of El Dorado now fully believe that they are indeed gods. Meanwhile,

551
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 2: Chell is let off the hook, claiming that she was

552
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 2: trying to help these gods find their way to El Dorado,

553
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 2: and then she overhears Tulio and Miguel revealing themselves to

554
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 2: be not real gods, saying that if they maintain this facade,

555
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 2: they can live like kings and steal the gold. So

556
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 2: she tells them she won't wrap them out as long

557
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 2: as they let her in on their scheme, because she

558
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 2: wants much more than this provincial life. And we'll talk

559
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 2: about that as well.

560
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean but they're like, oh, well, has

561
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,479
Speaker 3: she lived here? Oh her life? Does she have family?

562
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 3: Does she have friends? Or does she just exist in this?

563
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 3: Does she have this? Why does she want to leave?

564
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 4: Well?

565
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, all questions, if you had them, will not be

566
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 3: answered correct.

567
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just like, yeah, I'm bored. And the end

568
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 4: of the conversation, it's like, okay, okay.

569
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 3: It would have it even great to get that, you know.

570
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 3: It's like, I'm bored in horny.

571
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: Right, too horny for this place, too horny to live here. Yeah,

572
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 2: we don't know. So Tulio and Miguel embrace their god

573
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 2: status and everything seems awesome until they realized that the

574
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 2: high priest sekulcn is about to make a human sacrifice

575
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 2: to pay tribute to these quote unquote gods. So Tulio

576
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 2: and Miguel swoop in to be like, no, no, no, we

577
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 2: don't want you to kill people. How about gold as

578
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: the tribute. So the people start throwing in gold into

579
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 2: this kind of whirl polly entrance to the spirit world Shabbalba.

580
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 2: But then they're like, no, no, no, we want the gold

581
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 2: near us. We want to be able to bask in it.

582
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 2: So they agree, and then they're like, by the way,

583
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 2: we're going to take that gold with us back to

584
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 2: the heavens, which we're gonna do soon, so please build

585
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 2: us a boat so that we can get to the

586
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 2: heavens via boat. And the chief is like, no problem,

587
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 2: we'll build a boat for you in three days. So

588
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 2: now Miguel and Tulio have to figure out how to

589
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 2: keep up this ruse for three days. Tulio wants them

590
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: to lay low during this time, especially because Miguel has

591
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 2: a tendency to cause a ruckus, and sure enough, he

592
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 2: does not.

593
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 3: Lay lows caused.

594
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,280
Speaker 2: He's causing the ruckus. He goes out into the city

595
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 2: and he makes friends with everyone in a sequence that

596
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 2: suggests these indigenous people don't know how to have fun

597
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: until this white colonizer comes along and teaches them how

598
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 2: to enjoy themselves.

599
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 4: But these these indigenous people are under the tyranny of

600
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 4: this best spot, and the white guy needs to come

601
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 4: in and be like, hey, chill.

602
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't kill each other.

603
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 4: Right.

604
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 3: They're like me, as a grifter from a colonizing culture

605
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 3: that aspires to steal from you and leave. Listen to me.

606
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 3: I know what's going on. It also, I mean, we're

607
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 3: about to get into this part, but as they're found out,

608
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 3: it's like the way the indigenous characters are treated is

609
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 3: so baffling. I cannot get into. It's heavily hinted that

610
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 3: the chief knows that they're con artists, and he's like whatever,

611
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 3: He's like, it's.

612
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 2: Okay, take the goal.

613
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 3: You can stay in the position of God. Like what,

614
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 3: it just doesn't Yeah, it's ridiculous.

615
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. So while Miguel is out having fun on the town,

616
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: Tulio and Cell are fuckucking.

617
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 3: Yeah it is. It's not subtext, it's text.

618
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 2: It's text that they are not.

619
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 3: They're simply fucking. This is where Cell's character goes off

620
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 3: the fucking rails. I don't understand why. She's like, let

621
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 3: Miguel go, Like, why does she do that? And I

622
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 3: guess because she wants to fuck Tulio. And then the

623
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 3: second she fucks Tulio, all of her agency as a

624
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 3: character turns into vapor.

625
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 2: Yes, well that's happening. Cortes has landed in the same

626
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 2: spot that Tulio and Miguel did, and he and the

627
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 2: other conquistadors are making their way toward the city. Then

628
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 2: there's a scene where Suco Cohn makes Tulio and Miguel

629
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 2: play sports with a bunch of these like warrior athletes,

630
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 2: and the two guys end up cheating via an armadillo

631
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 2: so that no one will realize that they're not gods.

632
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 3: I honestly, I did love that armadillo. I thought that

633
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 3: armadillo was hilarious. Loved the armadilla.

634
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 4: The armadilla who can fly and manipulate the loss of physics. Yes, yes,

635
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 4: and it's somehow bouncy. I love him.

636
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 3: You're like the but you're like magic, Is it is

637
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 3: the armadillo magic? Or is he just awesome? Like, we

638
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 3: don't drunk, we don't know. Even the it's so weird that,

639
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 3: like even the like Animal Friend, if we're going into

640
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 3: like the Disney model, this is clearly pulling from even

641
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 3: the Animal Friend is kind of like weird and horny.

642
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:34,760
Speaker 3: You're like, why why, Like I there's so many questions,

643
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 3: like were people just too horny to make a movie

644
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 3: that makes sense?

645
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know. And this is when

646
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 2: cucle Khan really starts wilding out. He's obsessed with human

647
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 2: sacrifices and quote unquote cleansing the city, and he keeps

648
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 2: trying to get Tulio and Miguel to sacrifice people, but

649
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 2: they always refuse. Soucle Con is now starting to suspect

650
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 2: that they are not God's after all. After three days,

651
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 2: the boat is finished, but Miguel is having second thoughts

652
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 2: about going though. Tulio invites Chell to go back to

653
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,919
Speaker 2: Spain with him, and she's like, what about Miguel, And

654
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,399
Speaker 2: he's like, forget Miguel, which Miguel overhears. So I love a.

655
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 3: Plot contrivance like this, and evesdropped this late second act.

656
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 3: This happens in Shrek. Wow, sorry, true it does.

657
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:35,879
Speaker 2: There are Shrek tannic parallels.

658
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 3: It's one of the laziest plot contrivances. You're like, and

659
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 3: then he was in the doorway and he's like, my

660
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 3: boyfriend broke up with me, which is the subtext to it.

661
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:45,959
Speaker 3: He's like, my boyfriend broke up with me. And also

662
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 3: Miguel takes it so literally where it's it feels so

663
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 3: clearly like yeah, I forget him, like, which is rightful.

664
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 3: But he's like I've been dumped, Like he's he's about

665
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:02,240
Speaker 3: to move because he over received breakup which I've done.

666
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 3: I don't know, I mean we.

667
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 2: All have, so now they're kind of feuding. Meanwhile, cecle

668
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 2: Con makes some potion or something magical happens and he

669
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 2: brings this huge stone statue to life, which attacks the

670
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 2: city and goes after Tulio and Miguel, but they outsmart

671
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 2: cycle Con and he falls into the whirlpool entrance of Shibalba,

672
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 2: which spits him out in this lake right at the

673
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 2: feet of Cortes. So now he gangs up with Cortes,

674
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 2: but they don't know that, and Miguel and Tulio have

675
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 2: you know, White Savior style saved the city for now,

676
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 2: but they're still feuding, and Miguel still wants to stay

677
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: in El Dorado and Tulio still wants to go back

678
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 2: to Spain with cell so he makes arrangements to leave

679
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 2: on the boat with a ton of gold. But before

680
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:06,439
Speaker 2: he goes, everyone learns that Sukulcan is leading Cortes to

681
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 2: the city, so Tulio comes up with a plan to

682
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 2: destroy the entrance to El Dorado by crashing the boat

683
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 2: into the pillars so that Cortes won't be able to

684
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 2: find the city, even though it'll mean they'll lose all

685
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 2: the gold, but it's a sacrifice that Tulio is willing

686
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 2: to make.

687
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 4: Which is like it's a it's an interesting I was like,

688
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 4: don't they like trade with other people? Like that was

689
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 4: the entrance to their city. Yeah, like what are they

690
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 4: going to do now?

691
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 3: Also the fact that the like all of a sudden,

692
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 3: the chief is able to almost single handedly hold up

693
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:49,479
Speaker 3: a pillar. Yeah, then weighs tons and tons and tons.

694
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 3: He's like, yeah, no problem, this plan makes sense again,

695
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 3: just like a moment where there's like five hundred ways

696
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 3: where that and it's like it's bad riding. And also

697
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 3: it's just like, at no point is Chell going to

698
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 3: give a passing shit about everyone she knows, Like it's

699
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 3: so weird that this moment is I understand why, but

700
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 3: it's like it just reveals the flaws. So it's like, well,

701
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 3: this is the first character growth we've ever seen in Tulio.

702
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 3: But it's ultimately it's his idea just to act white

703
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 3: savior to white savior the place that he was in

704
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 3: the middle of colonizing.

705
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 4: Like yeah, it's just like very sloppily put together, Like

706
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 4: the climax is very evidently sloppily put together, and it

707
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 4: in hindsight makes like the seams of the rest of

708
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 4: the movie show a lot more. It's like, oh, it's

709
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 4: a very contrived movie in general.

710
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 3: It's so weird and also I mean, just like the

711
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 3: just to shout out a very two thousand element, there's

712
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 3: clearly like it's a mix of two D and three

713
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 3: D animation in a way that's very jarring. There's just

714
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 3: like barrels and like you see gold, You're like, why

715
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 3: just the gold? Like there, it's very I feel like

716
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 3: there's a million early two thousands of movies that are

717
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 3: like they won't notice, they'll love this, and you're like

718
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 3: it looks bad.

719
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, jose, I know you said you remembered the Gold

720
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 2: like it was very memorable. But like seeing this for

721
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 2: the first time, I was like, this looks like shit,

722
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,800
Speaker 2: Like it looks bad and weird.

723
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 4: Like it's one of those things that I find charming

724
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 4: because it's like, oh, it was very in its infancy.

725
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 4: There's like bland. But like there's like a lot of

726
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 4: things that I feel like because I watched them when

727
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 4: I was very young, Like the textures really stuck with me,

728
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 4: Like the the clouds in hercules also have that effect. Yes, yes,

729
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 4: on me. The jungle in Tarzan as well. I was

730
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 4: very fascinated by that because like I could tell that

731
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 4: they were like using something new, and I was like,

732
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 4: I was very fascinated by it. But I was saying that,

733
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 4: and but my boyfriend, who hadn't seen the movie, was like,

734
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 4: it's very weird. It is right, You're not attached.

735
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 3: Right, right, I mean this movie, like an attachment to

736
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 3: it does make all the difference, which is why Kiln,

737
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 3: I'm kind of glad you like didn't grow up with it,

738
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 3: because there is like things that I will be like,

739
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 3: well but this, and You're like, well, no, not really,

740
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,879
Speaker 3: and I'll be like no, no, And I was like, wow,

741
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 3: Kenu's being such a bitch today.

742
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 2: Classic meme.

743
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 3: It reminded me of like Star Wars prequel stuff too,

744
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 3: where you're just like there's all of a sudden something

745
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 3: that is like so old computery looking, or when they

746
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 3: like when you see prequel Yoda or whatever, and you're like,

747
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,760
Speaker 3: oh what yucky? Yeah.

748
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

749
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,240
Speaker 2: Anyway, So they collapse the gate. The gold is spilled,

750
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 2: but El Dobrado is now safe from the conquistadors, and

751
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 2: Miguel decides to join Tulio and cell on their adventure

752
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 2: back to Spain.

753
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 5: The end very abrupt ending. I will say, yes that too.

754
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 5: Let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss.

755
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 2: And we're back. Where do we begin?

756
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 4: I don't know so much going on?

757
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, who say, does anything stand out to you? Where

758
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 3: would you like to begin?

759
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:28,760
Speaker 4: I think that obviously, like removing ourselves from the movie itself,

760
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 4: I think that the most interesting scene in it for

761
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 4: me is the Shibalba scene where they show the tribute

762
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 4: there they start throwing the tribute to the whirlpool, because

763
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 4: that is, weirdly enough, it's the only accurate scene in

764
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 4: the whole movie regarding the myth that it's based on.

765
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 4: In that, just for I guess, I guess that's a

766
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,879
Speaker 4: good as good a place to start as any. That

767
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 4: the myth of El Dorado is not a myth that

768
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 4: is indigenous to the Americas, and it is rather the

769
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 4: result of the projections that Spanish people arriving to the

770
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:15,280
Speaker 4: continent had of it, and it's clash with the local culture.

771
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 4: So basically, there's this Colombian historian, her name is Diano Due,

772
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 4: and she she has like this history podcast. She's incredible,

773
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,399
Speaker 4: and she describes it as this clash between like all

774
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 4: the projections that the Spanish had of a world that

775
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 4: ultimately ended up challenging their ability to imagine the universe. Right,

776
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 4: these people arrive to a continent who have no notion

777
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:46,280
Speaker 4: of how to process it. It challenges every single notion

778
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 4: of civilization that they have, every single notion of like

779
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 4: geography and history and even religion, and what they end

780
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 4: up finding does not mesh with their expectations of it.

781
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 4: So both of those things end up clashing together, and

782
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 4: they start to see all of the local population, the

783
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 4: local customs, everything the culture. They start to see it

784
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 4: through this very eurocentric lens, like in a very literal way.

785
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 4: So what happened when the Spanish people arrived to the

786
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 4: Caribbean coast of what is now Colombia. So they arrived

787
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 4: to what is now Santa Marta and Cartagena, these two

788
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 4: coastal cities, and they start making their way down the

789
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 4: Magdalena River to the Andes, up to the Andes. Wait,

790
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 4: how I've always struggled in English? People say the Andes.

791
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:45,280
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, say Andes.

792
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 4: Okay, Now I just want to make it. I just

793
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 4: want to say that that's what I'm talking about now,

794
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 4: because obviously I'll pronounce them like in Spanish. So they

795
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 4: make their way through the Andes and they start hearing

796
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 4: of this population farther down south that has a lot

797
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 4: of gold, and they begin to process that as like

798
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 4: they think that gold has the same value there that

799
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 4: it has in Europe. They think it's also monetary, when

800
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 4: in fact, the cultures here had a very different relationship

801
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 4: with gold. If you ever make your way to Bubbadad,

802
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 4: there's the Gold Museum, which is the largest collection of

803
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 4: gold artifacts in the world, and it is established as

804
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 4: a way to recontextualize gold not as a commodity, but

805
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 4: rather as an important cultural good, akin to like painting

806
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 4: or sculpture. It's very much a part of their everyday

807
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 4: lives in a more spiritual and cultural way than just money.

808
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 4: But obviously that Eurocentric lens creates this distortion of it,

809
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 4: and so they're like, oh, they're very rich people. And

810
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 4: the farther than Sow they get, they keep hearing of

811
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 4: this place called the Muiska. It's called it was the

812
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 4: Muiska Confederation. It was a series of populations native populations

813
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 4: that fell under the Muiska government, and they occupy present

814
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 4: day Bogata in like central Columbia, and either they witness

815
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 4: or they hear or they start hearing of this ritual.

816
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 4: Where in Lake Ukuatawita, which is this lake it's like

817
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 4: two hours away from Bagada. It's gorgeous, another thing that

818
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 4: people should visit, and it's this perfectly circular lagoon that

819
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,799
Speaker 4: kind of looks like a meteor fell and just fill

820
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 4: up with water. That's not what happened, but that was

821
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:30,439
Speaker 4: a theory for a while, but it kind of looks

822
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 4: like that. It kind of looks like this big crater

823
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:37,320
Speaker 4: full with water, and it's this gorgeous like blue green water.

824
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:40,319
Speaker 4: So it is a very mystical place in a lot

825
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:44,240
Speaker 4: of ways. And what happened there was that that lagoon

826
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 4: was a sacred site. It was the origin of life

827
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 4: for the Muisca. And every time that a new leader

828
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 4: would ascend, he would cover himself in gold dust across

829
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 4: the lagoon in a raft and submerge himself in the

830
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 4: center of the lagoon, and then the people all around

831
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 4: the lagoon would offer gold and would throw the gold

832
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 4: into the lagoon because it was a way of it

833
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 4: was like a religious ceremony of tribute to the gods

834
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,760
Speaker 4: and to the origin of life itself, and people start

835
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 4: hearing of this Golden Man or how they would call

836
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 4: it in Spanish like Eldorado, like the Golden Man or

837
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 4: the golden period, because in Spanish you have tacit nouns.

838
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,839
Speaker 4: So this is where the Eldorado concept is born. It's

839
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 4: from Spanish interpretation of the traditions of the indigenous population,

840
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:46,280
Speaker 4: specifically of the Muizka population, and their imaginations start running wild,

841
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 4: and they're like, these people are so rich in gold

842
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 4: that they just throw it into this lagoon. So not

843
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 4: only is there a lot of gold at the bottom

844
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:56,799
Speaker 4: of that lagoon, there's also probably a lot of gold elsewhere.

845
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 4: And again because they we're expecting kind of like reserves

846
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 4: of gold like this, like piles and piles of gold

847
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 4: like stored up instead of everyday items that they used.

848
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 4: If you go to the Gold Museum, you see that

849
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 4: they would wear a gold and jewelry, but also like

850
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:19,280
Speaker 4: I guess, a lot of like different jewelry like chest plates, belt, crowns,

851
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:22,240
Speaker 4: but jars were also made of gold. Like the jars

852
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:27,320
Speaker 4: were they stored food and coca leaves all these things.

853
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 4: They expect a reserve, they expect a place where gold

854
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 4: is stored, and they keep looking for it, and they

855
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 4: don't find it, because again, that is not the relationship

856
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 4: that these people had with gold, and so they begin

857
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 4: to believe that it must be hidden somewhere, and that

858
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 4: is how It's snow balls into the perception of a

859
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 4: city made out of gold that is hidden somewhere in

860
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 4: first in the area that is now Columbia, but later

861
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 4: on the whole continent became subject of that search, to

862
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 4: a point where there were myths about it being like

863
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 4: deeping the amaz rainforest, or even in like more like

864
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 4: North America. Seven Golden Cities of Cibola. I think it's

865
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 4: it's one of the ones that was in I think

866
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 4: like the southern United States, southwestern All this to say

867
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,839
Speaker 4: that the one thing that stays from the origin of

868
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 4: this myth is the scene where everyone starts throwing gold

869
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:26,399
Speaker 4: for tribute into the lagoon, which was what I found

870
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 4: very fascinating as a kid, because I was like, well,

871
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 4: they knew what they were adapting, but like, why is

872
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 4: everything else so weird?

873
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 2: And they make a specific reference to Hibbalba, which is

874
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 2: the actual name of the underworld in Maya mythology. Right,

875
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 2: but that's kind of the only thing that seems vaguely

876
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 2: rooted in something that was actually part of actual mythology

877
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:56,320
Speaker 2: from that area.

878
00:51:56,520 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really bizarre to be what this movie because

879
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 3: like that to me demonstrates like, you know, this production

880
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 3: had the capacity to do their homework, but they But

881
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 3: even the way that that is presented is, well, how

882
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 3: foolish is this? You know, like it's presented from the

883
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 3: colonizer's perspective of like, well, why would you do this?

884
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 3: You know, this is so like it's presented in a

885
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:22,879
Speaker 3: very i think like pejorative way.

886
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:26,839
Speaker 4: It's any Michelle is like it's like kind of like

887
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 4: she's in on it and like, oh, yeah, this is no,

888
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 4: don't do that. Don't let them do that.

889
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 2: Right, like my own people are so foolish.

890
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it is still in that regard because a

891
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 4: lot of the things that they are throwing are in fact,

892
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 4: like the kinds of stuff that I was describing that

893
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 4: were like of common use, like jars, pottery, Well, I

894
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 4: guess it's not pottery if it's not ceramics, but like

895
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:52,280
Speaker 4: that kind of like thing, it's like the civilization itself

896
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 4: is kind of like in that mindset of like gold

897
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 4: not as currency, yeah, but it is still being processed

898
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 4: from the point of view of gold ass currency, so

899
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,439
Speaker 4: it it has like this class that makes it very

900
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 4: inconsistent like internally, I guess, and from that outside point

901
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 4: of view, like you said, like they had the opportunity

902
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 4: of like they did research, they investigated this, but it

903
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,320
Speaker 4: feels like they were playing off from the very start

904
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 4: to like the expectations of what a movie like this

905
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 4: would be. And the esthetics of El Dorado within the

906
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 4: movie are all like mess America, and it's like this

907
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 4: like pyramids, which you know, there were not pyramids around

908
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 4: here specifically, and all these like the artistic motifs that

909
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 4: you see a lot in mess American art are like

910
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:43,800
Speaker 4: in Aztec and in Mayan art, the designs of the gods.

911
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,279
Speaker 4: That kind of stuff is very much all rooted in

912
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 4: that kind of like conglomerate of cultures, even though they

913
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:54,359
Speaker 4: are talking about something that originated in a place where

914
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 4: the aesthetics were much different. But you know, it's not

915
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 4: as marketable, I guess. People here didn't living like huge

916
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 4: exciting pyramids, so it's not as cool to portray.

917
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,879
Speaker 2: It's not a cinematic yeah, quote unquote, you know.

918
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 4: And Indiana Jones does the same thing in the fourth

919
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,240
Speaker 4: Indiana Jones movie, for he also discovers the City of Gold.

920
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 4: They do the same thing, but during the Amazon and

921
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 4: suddenly there's like pyramids there.

922
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 2: Right, all that meso American architecture in.

923
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 3: The classic mass it is. I feel like that scene

924
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 3: is in retrospect a clear tell that it's like this

925
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 3: production had the capacity to do their which is obvious.

926
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 3: You know, it's a multimillion dollar production, but any creative

927
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 3: involved with this that we're like, well we didn't, we

928
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 3: didn't know. It's like, well, you knew enough to authentically

929
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:45,399
Speaker 3: present something, but you presented it as if it were

930
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:48,359
Speaker 3: full like and the rest is essentially made up. It's

931
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 3: really frustrating, and I guess, Jose, I want to encourage

932
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 3: all of our listeners to watch your full video, but

933
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 3: I did want to ask about, you know, where this

934
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,240
Speaker 3: sort of falls in, because you cover in your videos

935
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 3: so thoroughly, how frequently El Dorado comes up in the

936
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 3: adventure genre in general, generally with white protagonists, and where

937
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 3: does this movie fall? Where had we seen these like

938
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 3: why did no one blink when this movie came out

939
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,799
Speaker 3: unless they were, you know, aware of actual history or

940
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 3: indigenous themselves.

941
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 4: Well, I think that part of the the interesting thing

942
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 4: about this where this movie is said, is that it

943
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 4: is right at the end of that wave of like

944
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 4: nineties more sympathetic portrayals of indigenous people in movies, which

945
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:39,880
Speaker 4: I think arguably probably started with like Dances with Wolves,

946
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 4: in which it was like kind of like that like

947
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:45,320
Speaker 4: Hollywood notion of like why can't we all just get along,

948
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 4: you know, like we're not so different? Which obviously it

949
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 4: doesn't mean that the art was less flawed. It was

950
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 4: just flawed in a different way in which we were

951
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 4: no longer dealing with like racist caricatures like in a

952
00:55:58,800 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 4: lot of like westerns.

953
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's something that the documentary Real Engine, which we

954
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:07,360
Speaker 2: covered a while back on the podcast, examines, like this

955
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:11,399
Speaker 2: sort of shift in media for a little while as

956
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:15,760
Speaker 2: far as the way indigenous characters were represented on screen,

957
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 2: still by and large, not respectfully responsibly, but with a

958
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 2: little bit more empathy.

959
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, you see that a lot in like

960
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:31,799
Speaker 4: Pocacontas and then in ro To Colorado, in that it

961
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 4: was so that it was also meant in like movies

962
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 4: that were going to be accessible to children. It was

963
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 4: not just going to be like serious dramas like Dad

964
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 4: says with wolves, but it was also going to be

965
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 4: like like I think that everyone could talk about in

966
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 4: a way. But and that kind of shows how naive

967
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 4: it was from the get go. It does have like

968
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 4: that kind of like children's movie mentality of things are

969
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 4: not as complex as they seem. We're more similar than

970
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 4: we are different. This can all be solved by just

971
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:04,799
Speaker 4: talking to each other, which is kind of like the

972
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 4: resolution in Pocahontas to a very complicated conflict.

973
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, that it has no interest in portraying.

974
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:14,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. So it's just the movie comes out at

975
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 4: the end of that wave of attempting more humanistic approaches

976
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 4: to portraying indigenous people. But it still has all the

977
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 4: baggage of its predecessors, and most importantly, it has all

978
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 4: the it carries on the tropes that by that time

979
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 4: people were already realizing that they were they were outdated.

980
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 4: I mean, it's not like when Pocahontas came out, there

981
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 4: wasn't any controversy. There was probably when this movie came

982
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 4: out there wasn't because nobody saw it. In its original

983
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 4: theatrical run. It was a flop, right, but it.

984
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 2: Was a flop compared to its budget. But it's it

985
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 2: made seventy six million dollars at the box office.

986
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 4: So oh yeah, it's more than I thought.

987
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it made a lot of money. But it's

988
00:57:56,600 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 3: just the animated movies are so expensive and comparative. I

989
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 3: feel like it was like, yeah, used as an example

990
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 3: of like Jeffrey Katzenberg doesn't know what he's doing, which

991
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 3: is true.

992
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 4: It almost always is.

993
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but this is you know, we are counting

994
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 3: down to Shrek. Shark comes out in oh one and

995
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 3: then Katzenberg says fuck you for all eternity, even though

996
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 3: he's like, you know, one of the most ridiculous people

997
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 3: to have ever lived. True.

998
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 4: But I think that it is very telling that this

999
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 4: movie kind of on the Katzenburg end, it wanted to

1000
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 4: have it all in regards to the last ten years

1001
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 4: of Disney. It was like, we're going to try to

1002
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 4: be more serious like Pocahontas, but we're also going to

1003
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 4: have like the writers of Aladdin, make it into like

1004
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:47,919
Speaker 4: a fun adventure, right, and we're gonna have Alton John

1005
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 4: do the songs. Alton John kind of like winging it.

1006
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 4: I'm not as I guess. I grew up with the

1007
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 4: Spanish dubs of the songs and it wasn't until very

1008
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 4: recently that I listened to the ones in English. I

1009
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 4: was like, it kind of sounds like he's making them

1010
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 4: up as he goes. But see at the time.

1011
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:10,120
Speaker 3: I was like, wow, five their earworms. Look, this is

1012
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 3: where I get to bet I'm like theirs. A child

1013
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 3: might want the karaoke CD. It's not inconceivable.

1014
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 2: I think they're boring there.

1015
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 3: Well you you don't, You're not six. Uh. I do

1016
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 3: think it's interesting. I mean that is like well Worth Benching.

1017
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 3: I wanted to get to that where this writing team,

1018
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 3: Ted Elliott and Terry Rossio, they sort of specialized in

1019
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 3: this kind of colonizer narrative because they are or just

1020
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 3: in in in Disney in general, where the opening sequence,

1021
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 3: the way we meet Miguel and Tulio. I was like, oh,

1022
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 3: this is like a ripoff of Aladdin, and you're like, oh, well,

1023
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 3: it's the writers of Aladdin. And they also wrote the

1024
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 3: Mask of Zorro. They are credited on Truck. Sorry, it's true.

1025
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:57,959
Speaker 2: Pirates of the Caribbean.

1026
00:59:57,720 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 4: And then they went on to the Pirates of the Caribbean.

1027
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's yeah, so it's like this is kind of

1028
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:06,440
Speaker 3: their bread and butter. It's like misrepresenting history to create

1029
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 3: successful or attempted blockbusters.

1030
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you can definitely tell that that they were

1031
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 4: going for, like that kind of Aladdin tone, but with

1032
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 4: like the added Elton John of it all and the

1033
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 4: more serious like topic quote unquote, with like with Pocahontas,

1034
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 4: which was famously Jeffre Katzenberg's attempt at like Oscar Bold. So, yeah,

1035
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 4: it is it is kind of like trying to have

1036
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 4: it all in regards to that while still borrowing the

1037
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 4: problematic aspects of not only those stories but also the

1038
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 4: ones that came before, because it is kind of like,

1039
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 4: in a way an update on the Bob Hope and

1040
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 4: who was it with Bob Hope? Oh yes, that they

1041
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 4: would have these adventure movies like the duo Crosby Bing.

1042
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 3: Crosby famously unproblematic.

1043
01:00:57,080 --> 01:01:02,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you know, so it imports so much stuff

1044
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 4: from previous movies in an attempt to do something as

1045
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 4: good as them, quote unquote, but it does not in

1046
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 4: doing so, it imports all these like problematic elements that

1047
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 4: also feel end up feeling incredibly disjointed, like narratively, and

1048
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 4: every every one of the three main indigenous characters are

1049
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 4: like a different stereotype, like infamous stereotype in a way,

1050
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 4: Like you know, you have like the jolly kind of

1051
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 4: like himbo ish chief who who is just wants everyone

1052
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:39,080
Speaker 4: to get along, and you have like the the fearmongering

1053
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 4: evil priests whose magical, magical, generically magical and mystical.

1054
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 3: And it is a pretty comprehensive you know, indigenous tropes

1055
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:52,760
Speaker 3: one oh one, like most are present in this.

1056
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:56,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, And like even Pocahontas had, like you felt

1057
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:59,520
Speaker 4: like it had like actual characters, even if they were

1058
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 4: like surrounded by a baffling movie in hindsight in a

1059
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 4: lot of ways, but you know, you could feel that

1060
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 4: they were characters here. They just feel like these tropes

1061
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:15,480
Speaker 4: that by then we're already feeling very tired. Obviously the

1062
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 4: cornerstone of the whole conversation, because this is the Bechdel

1063
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:22,840
Speaker 4: cast after all, Shell who is who's just.

1064
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 3: Like has a colonizer's brain put into an indigenous body

1065
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 3: out of context, Like why.

1066
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:31,680
Speaker 4: It even goes to her design like she is the

1067
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 4: only indigenous character in the movie that does not have

1068
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:42,040
Speaker 4: like a cartoonishly exaggeratedly pronounced nose. You know, because cycle

1069
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:46,080
Speaker 4: Con looks like almost like the Native Americans in Peter

1070
01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:50,480
Speaker 4: Pan like levels of like cartoonish exaggeration of racial features

1071
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 4: like the the cheekbones, and the nose and like the forehead.

1072
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 4: They're all they all feel very reminiscent of that like

1073
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 4: racist cartoon carry catcher rization of a whole like ethnicity.

1074
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:05,800
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, her features are anglicized.

1075
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:09,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, I am. I mean my boyfriend when he first

1076
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 4: saw her, I'm gonna steal a lot of jokes from

1077
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 4: my boyfriend. Sorry, I watched it with him.

1078
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 3: What are boyfriends for?

1079
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was like, why does she look like New

1080
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:22,240
Speaker 4: Yurekan And I was like, she's voiced by Rosie Perez

1081
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 4: and He's like, called it right.

1082
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:28,440
Speaker 3: They designed the character around Rosie Perez versus the story.

1083
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:30,880
Speaker 4: She's the only one that does not have like overly

1084
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 4: pronounced indigenous features. But she's just the right amount of

1085
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:39,240
Speaker 4: like exotically designed so as to be like sensual and

1086
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 4: seductive and very sexually available to the first white man

1087
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 4: that she meets.

1088
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:48,080
Speaker 3: Unbelievably, So let's get to that. I just wanted to

1089
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:53,000
Speaker 3: really quickly mention how just in terms of like where

1090
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 3: this falls in animation, I think the I've never I

1091
01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 3: don't know, maybe I just haven't looked into it enough,

1092
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 3: but this movie feel very much in conversation with a

1093
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 3: Disney movie that makes a lot of the same choices

1094
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:08,960
Speaker 3: that came out at the same year and was successful,

1095
01:04:09,080 --> 01:04:13,000
Speaker 3: The Emperor's New Groove, which also I mean it's down

1096
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:17,360
Speaker 3: to the production changes that were made because The Emperor's

1097
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,960
Speaker 3: New Groove, you know, like you've have maybe seen it

1098
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:23,880
Speaker 3: another movie. I have a lot of nostalgic attachment to.

1099
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:27,160
Speaker 4: The same that one I did love as a kid,

1100
01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:29,800
Speaker 4: like an adultterated love, and I still have a lot

1101
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:30,600
Speaker 4: of love for it.

1102
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, it is funny and like and it.

1103
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 4: Is a better movie than this, Like as a movie,

1104
01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:38,400
Speaker 4: it is a lot better.

1105
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:42,120
Speaker 3: More No, it's like definitely a more fully realized story,

1106
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:46,040
Speaker 3: but it also is like still a you know, americanized

1107
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 3: colonially you know colonial lens, you know, view of the

1108
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 3: Incan Empire. I think that something that kind of saves

1109
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:57,800
Speaker 3: it is the fact that there is not a Colonizer narrative.

1110
01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 3: All of the characters are for even though they were

1111
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:05,440
Speaker 3: voiced by David Spade and John Goodman. But what I

1112
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:07,880
Speaker 3: thought was interesting is first of all, that these movies

1113
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,880
Speaker 3: came out the same year there was clearly some internal

1114
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:16,360
Speaker 3: interest in representing indigenous cultures badly, and that there is

1115
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:19,600
Speaker 3: the same change at a certain point in production. Where

1116
01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:21,440
Speaker 3: I didn't know this about The Road to El Dorado,

1117
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 3: I knew it about The Emperor's New Groove because there's

1118
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:30,000
Speaker 3: a whole really interesting documentary about it. Incredible, yes, really great,

1119
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 3: Like if you haven't seen it, I'm pretty sure it

1120
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:33,680
Speaker 3: was made by like Sting's wife at the time, which

1121
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 3: is wild. But there's so many similar things that I

1122
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:39,640
Speaker 3: think are very much pulling from the success of The

1123
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:42,160
Speaker 3: Lion King and Toy Story, where you know, it's like

1124
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:45,320
Speaker 3: I mean, especially The Lion King, where it is a

1125
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 3: group of white creatives presenting a very serious story about

1126
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:53,080
Speaker 3: a culture that is not their own, and then bringing

1127
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 3: on a huge pop star to write the music that

1128
01:05:57,160 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 3: is the Lion King playbook to a tea. It was

1129
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 3: very successful with The Lion King, and you see these

1130
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 3: sort of failed attempts to recreate that magic in a

1131
01:06:04,560 --> 01:06:08,320
Speaker 3: way that gets increasingly offensive over time. And so by

1132
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:10,880
Speaker 3: two thousand you get The Road to El Dorado by

1133
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:14,480
Speaker 3: Jeffrey Katzenberg, who was involved in The Lion King, and

1134
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:16,640
Speaker 3: then on the Disney side you get The Emperor's New Groove.

1135
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:20,360
Speaker 3: And both of these movies were pitched as very serious

1136
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:23,919
Speaker 3: and were meant to be more like The Lion King

1137
01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:27,200
Speaker 3: in the culture they're representing. And this isn't to say

1138
01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 3: that The Lion King got it right. You can listen

1139
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:32,160
Speaker 3: to our episode about it. But the movies were pitched

1140
01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:36,479
Speaker 3: with a very serious tone, tested horribly, and then were

1141
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:41,200
Speaker 3: switched to be American comedies that took place in indigenous

1142
01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:47,440
Speaker 3: cultures but presented a completely colonial Americanized Western sensibility and

1143
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:50,440
Speaker 3: sense of humor. And that happened to both of those movies.

1144
01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:55,120
Speaker 3: This like movie was originally in the Road to El Dorado,

1145
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:58,120
Speaker 3: was in production for a long time. It was not

1146
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:01,760
Speaker 3: pitched as a comedy, and then it was changed when

1147
01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:04,520
Speaker 3: they're like, well, this movie is a fucking mess, which

1148
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 3: I'm sure it was, but they're like, okay, we're just

1149
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:08,680
Speaker 3: going to turn it into a comedy and kind of

1150
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:11,080
Speaker 3: forget everything else.

1151
01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:13,240
Speaker 2: You know, we'll turn it into a different mess.

1152
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:15,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it is. Also it's also interesting that

1153
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:18,000
Speaker 4: you bring that up, because yeah, I was also thinking

1154
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 4: of and Personal Groove, but they both came at a

1155
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:25,280
Speaker 4: time where right after like the Latin invasion in terms

1156
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 4: of you know, you have Ricky Martin and Jalo and

1157
01:07:29,120 --> 01:07:32,160
Speaker 4: all this, like like the Macarina you have all this,

1158
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:38,120
Speaker 4: uh top three, Yeah exactly, that's that's a cultural exports,

1159
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 4: important cultural exports exports. Both Ricky Martin and Jalo are American,

1160
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 4: but it is like the Latin invasion of in mainstream

1161
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:51,720
Speaker 4: culture of like music and stuff, and they start to

1162
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:55,040
Speaker 4: realize that, like the Latino public in the US is

1163
01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:58,840
Speaker 4: not neglible, like they can cater to it. And I

1164
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 4: think that Personal Groove was actually the first Disney movie

1165
01:08:01,320 --> 01:08:04,840
Speaker 4: to open in Spanish in the US as well as

1166
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:08,600
Speaker 4: in English. There was this notion of like in some

1167
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:12,000
Speaker 4: way that the want this like desire to cater to

1168
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:19,599
Speaker 4: Latino audiences without really getting Latino or Latino adjacent voices

1169
01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:23,400
Speaker 4: in a figurative way, not like literal, although in the

1170
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:25,720
Speaker 4: case of Emperson who grew very literal, they didn't even

1171
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:29,439
Speaker 4: get any Latino voice actors, but you know, it was

1172
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:32,519
Speaker 4: like unlike later on when they would try this again

1173
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:36,840
Speaker 4: with like Coco or Encanto or all these like other

1174
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:41,599
Speaker 4: like pieces of media that were in some way courting

1175
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:46,040
Speaker 4: Latin American perspective, a Latin American public, I mean with

1176
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:50,559
Speaker 4: a perspective. They didn't have that here. So those two

1177
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:53,200
Speaker 4: movies are very good examples of that, right of what

1178
01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:56,080
Speaker 4: happens when you were you have this desire to explore

1179
01:08:56,120 --> 01:08:59,080
Speaker 4: these other cultures without giving a seat on the table

1180
01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:03,080
Speaker 4: to the people who come from those cultures, and you

1181
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:05,080
Speaker 4: get even it gets even more complicated when it comes

1182
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:08,920
Speaker 4: to indigenous cultures because obviously there is a difference between

1183
01:09:09,400 --> 01:09:13,240
Speaker 4: the Latino population and the indigenous population of Latin America,

1184
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:17,280
Speaker 4: and that is something that a lot of Americans, and

1185
01:09:17,320 --> 01:09:20,080
Speaker 4: like the mainstream, those were not the conversations that were having.

1186
01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:23,160
Speaker 4: So that's why the the Hispanic characters in the movie

1187
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,519
Speaker 4: are voiced by white guys and the Indigenous people are

1188
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 4: voiced by latinos.

1189
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 3: Well two or three, uh right, there is the Irish

1190
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:36,840
Speaker 3: Italian guy. Yeah, let's not forget.

1191
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:41,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, So it is it is an interesting moment in

1192
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:44,639
Speaker 4: regards to all the conversions of all these different waves

1193
01:09:45,080 --> 01:09:49,160
Speaker 4: and ongoing desires of the industry that aged very badly

1194
01:09:49,240 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 4: because they were not done with like a that kind

1195
01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:56,920
Speaker 4: of openness to perspective, just openness to consumers for sure.

1196
01:09:57,280 --> 01:10:01,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's let's unpack all of that via starting with

1197
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:09,320
Speaker 2: Cell first. So she is the one woman we meet

1198
01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:10,639
Speaker 2: in the entire story.

1199
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:18,800
Speaker 3: Shell exists in an unprecedented void, like a void heretofore unseen.

1200
01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:23,479
Speaker 2: In movies before instance, truly, So it's not even though

1201
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:27,439
Speaker 2: she's like not like the other girls because she's has

1202
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 2: a colonizer mind, she's we don't even meet the other girls, right, Yeah,

1203
01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:34,160
Speaker 2: we don't have a comparative, you know, we don't meet it.

1204
01:10:34,439 --> 01:10:38,639
Speaker 2: There's another there's another woman mentioned, but she's very much

1205
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 2: like what is the name of the character? Like missus smurf, Like,

1206
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:46,519
Speaker 2: I'm like, are there we see other women in passing,

1207
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:50,960
Speaker 2: but I don't think that another woman really speaks.

1208
01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:54,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we we think so, Yeah.

1209
01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:56,040
Speaker 4: No, do they have a name? Like this fails the

1210
01:10:56,439 --> 01:10:59,360
Speaker 4: Bechdel test on every single.

1211
01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:02,839
Speaker 3: Possible and a test was not made wild.

1212
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:06,120
Speaker 2: No, we don't even learn her name. For a while.

1213
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:09,960
Speaker 2: We learn very little about her and her backstory. The

1214
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:13,640
Speaker 2: only thing we really learn is her interest in capitalism

1215
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:16,640
Speaker 2: and colonialism. We'll get to that in a moment.

1216
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:20,639
Speaker 3: And having that presented as agency too is really tricky.

1217
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, she is hyper sexualized the way that many

1218
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:30,040
Speaker 2: indigenous women and women of color in general are represented

1219
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:34,640
Speaker 2: in media, especially compared to their white counterparts. And then like,

1220
01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:38,400
Speaker 2: part of the way she convinces the two men to

1221
01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:41,760
Speaker 2: let her in on their scam is that she's you know,

1222
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:47,120
Speaker 2: being hyper seductive and flirtatious and you know, influencing them

1223
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:50,760
Speaker 2: using her feminine wiles, that kind of thing. So, not

1224
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:55,120
Speaker 2: only in her character design and costuming, but also her behavior,

1225
01:11:55,320 --> 01:11:59,599
Speaker 2: is she hyper sexualized? And earlier versions of the script

1226
01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:04,360
Speaker 2: I read that she was sexualized even more. She had

1227
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:10,439
Speaker 2: even steamier love sequences, she was even more scantily dressed

1228
01:12:10,479 --> 01:12:11,759
Speaker 2: as far as her clothing design.

1229
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:15,720
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, you can find a lot of early concept art

1230
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 3: of cel and early like half animated sequences with her

1231
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:24,240
Speaker 3: at Tulio, and you're like, it's it's wild. It is

1232
01:12:24,720 --> 01:12:29,280
Speaker 3: h Yeah, I actually you know, maybe don't maybe don't

1233
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:31,360
Speaker 3: don't watch it, but it is true.

1234
01:12:31,439 --> 01:12:31,679
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1235
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:34,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then during some rewrites of the script, the

1236
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:39,320
Speaker 2: romance between her and Tulio was toned down and new

1237
01:12:39,400 --> 01:12:45,240
Speaker 2: clothing was designed for her, and Worth repeating that the

1238
01:12:45,400 --> 01:12:51,519
Speaker 2: hyper sexualization of Indigenous women in media has real world consequences,

1239
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:59,120
Speaker 2: where Indigenous women are raped, abducted, murdered at disproportionately high rates.

1240
01:12:59,479 --> 01:13:02,280
Speaker 3: I feel like trope that we see all the time

1241
01:13:02,680 --> 01:13:08,479
Speaker 3: encourages the interpretation that this abuse, this disproportionate abuse, is

1242
01:13:08,479 --> 01:13:12,520
Speaker 3: brought on by them and brought on by their presentation,

1243
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:16,160
Speaker 3: and that which is frustrating because women should be you know,

1244
01:13:16,280 --> 01:13:18,880
Speaker 3: maybe not in a kid's movie, but like, you know,

1245
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:22,320
Speaker 3: women should be able to present however they however they like.

1246
01:13:22,439 --> 01:13:25,840
Speaker 3: But it's because you know, these are white guys. These

1247
01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:29,080
Speaker 3: are the guys that wrote Jasmine, who are also writing Cell.

1248
01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:32,680
Speaker 3: It's i know, a different animation company, but there's a

1249
01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:35,280
Speaker 3: lot of the same players. And I do feel like

1250
01:13:35,479 --> 01:13:39,800
Speaker 3: when people are presented in children's media as more promiscuous

1251
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:44,040
Speaker 3: than white European people, that it is like the subtext

1252
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:46,639
Speaker 3: to it is like, so if anything happens to them,

1253
01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:49,760
Speaker 3: it's because they were presenting this way. They were not

1254
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:54,519
Speaker 3: whatever enough, And that is I feel like, really present

1255
01:13:55,160 --> 01:13:57,240
Speaker 3: in Cell. And then you're like, well, at least her

1256
01:13:57,320 --> 01:14:00,320
Speaker 3: character and then you're like, well, well no, just ding,

1257
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:05,400
Speaker 3: just kidding, because her character also I think I have

1258
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:11,320
Speaker 3: seen some reclaiming. But it goes with Jose what you

1259
01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:13,960
Speaker 3: were talking about earlier, the narratives that have sort of

1260
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:16,400
Speaker 3: popped up in the last half decade of this being

1261
01:14:16,439 --> 01:14:20,240
Speaker 3: a you know, gem, a hidden gem of like well

1262
01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:23,599
Speaker 3: you know cell, Sure there's a lot of tropes present,

1263
01:14:23,720 --> 01:14:26,360
Speaker 3: but is she not an active character? And the answer

1264
01:14:26,400 --> 01:14:30,000
Speaker 3: is like, well, she's active to a point. The second

1265
01:14:30,040 --> 01:14:35,040
Speaker 3: she's in a relationship with Tulio, her agency completely goes away.

1266
01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:38,439
Speaker 3: And the ways in which she's active is with a

1267
01:14:38,520 --> 01:14:41,640
Speaker 3: colonizer mindset. So it's like, I don't think that, you know,

1268
01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:47,080
Speaker 3: like she's particularly reclaimable is like will you miswatched it?

1269
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:53,759
Speaker 4: Right? Yeah? With Shell in particular, I think she calls

1270
01:14:53,800 --> 01:14:59,800
Speaker 4: to there's this figure in Mexican culture named La Malinche.

1271
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:01,479
Speaker 4: I don't know if you know about her.

1272
01:15:02,320 --> 01:15:02,840
Speaker 2: I don't think so.

1273
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:08,200
Speaker 4: Now, so she was this is Mexican culture, so it's

1274
01:15:08,240 --> 01:15:12,360
Speaker 4: not my own fortep but yeah, okay, just confirmed it.

1275
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:16,519
Speaker 4: She was the indigenous woman, like the Aztec indigenous woman

1276
01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:21,200
Speaker 4: who served as Cortes's kind of like guide, an interpreter

1277
01:15:22,280 --> 01:15:24,880
Speaker 4: and at first she was kind of like framed like

1278
01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:26,400
Speaker 4: during the colonial leer, she was kind of like a

1279
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:29,320
Speaker 4: frame like as an ideal like kind of almost like

1280
01:15:29,320 --> 01:15:32,000
Speaker 4: a noble savage kind of thing. And she ended up

1281
01:15:32,560 --> 01:15:37,160
Speaker 4: marrying I don't want to get this wrong again, not

1282
01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:40,920
Speaker 4: my culture, but it is something that I am. Okay,

1283
01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:44,840
Speaker 4: she ended up marrying a colonizer from the expedition, not

1284
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:48,720
Speaker 4: Cortez himself. That was almost the mistake that I made. Oh,

1285
01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:52,360
Speaker 4: she actually had a son with Cortez actually, But so

1286
01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:54,280
Speaker 4: for a while, it was kind of like she was

1287
01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:57,360
Speaker 4: kind of like a noble savage figure, and then after

1288
01:15:57,479 --> 01:16:01,599
Speaker 4: the Mexican War of Independence, she became reframed as more

1289
01:16:01,640 --> 01:16:05,280
Speaker 4: of a kind of like a trader, right because she

1290
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:08,800
Speaker 4: ate it in a lot of ways to the colonization

1291
01:16:09,200 --> 01:16:13,200
Speaker 4: of what is now the Mexican territory and like the

1292
01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:17,080
Speaker 4: end of the Aztec Empire and to this day in Mexico.

1293
01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:19,719
Speaker 4: It is kind of like an insult, like when someone

1294
01:16:19,760 --> 01:16:22,960
Speaker 4: calls someone a malin che, it's specifically a way of

1295
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:27,639
Speaker 4: calling them like either a trader or like to use

1296
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:31,040
Speaker 4: Internet's lank, kind of like a white man's whore in

1297
01:16:31,080 --> 01:16:34,800
Speaker 4: a way. So I feel like Chell in a way

1298
01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:39,639
Speaker 4: is very much a malin che figure, which is weird.

1299
01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:41,519
Speaker 4: I don't even know if they were aware of that,

1300
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:44,600
Speaker 4: but she kind of plays us one as kind of

1301
01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:49,360
Speaker 4: like this this woman who well, in my opinion, shouldn't

1302
01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:53,920
Speaker 4: necessarily be like demonized or anything, because you know, she

1303
01:16:54,080 --> 01:16:58,280
Speaker 4: was also part of a probably very like she was

1304
01:16:58,280 --> 01:17:01,080
Speaker 4: probably coerced in a way in to all of this. Right,

1305
01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:01,760
Speaker 4: We can't know.

1306
01:17:02,040 --> 01:17:03,920
Speaker 3: Right because I think that she was like a teenager

1307
01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:06,200
Speaker 3: when she met Cortez and like all of these things

1308
01:17:06,200 --> 01:17:10,840
Speaker 3: where it's like it's I'm sure that she is inappropriately maligned,

1309
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:14,320
Speaker 3: but that's the way, Like this movie is so in

1310
01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:18,720
Speaker 3: conversation with Pocahontas, where I mean and Pocahontas almost I mean,

1311
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:20,679
Speaker 3: I don't want to say that Pogacontas does this better.

1312
01:17:20,760 --> 01:17:23,120
Speaker 3: It doesn't. It does it wrong in a different way.

1313
01:17:23,200 --> 01:17:27,680
Speaker 3: But like I feel like cell is presented so uncritically

1314
01:17:27,760 --> 01:17:31,400
Speaker 3: as like you know, playing into third wave feminism, tropes

1315
01:17:31,400 --> 01:17:35,080
Speaker 3: around like, well, she's sassy and she like pushes back

1316
01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:37,640
Speaker 3: and she stands up for herself, So she is a

1317
01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:41,200
Speaker 3: feminist character, and it just like falls under a microsecond

1318
01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:45,519
Speaker 3: of scrutiny because she is presented yet hyper sexualized with

1319
01:17:45,640 --> 01:17:49,080
Speaker 3: a colonizer mentality that I have no idea how she

1320
01:17:49,120 --> 01:17:53,040
Speaker 3: would even you know, Like it's just it's like nonsensical

1321
01:17:53,160 --> 01:17:56,280
Speaker 3: where even if she were, you know, a rebellious teenager

1322
01:17:56,439 --> 01:18:00,920
Speaker 3: coming from El Dorado, like rebellion and would not look

1323
01:18:01,080 --> 01:18:04,599
Speaker 3: like a place she doesn't know exists, and like we're

1324
01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:08,000
Speaker 3: fully but and like you know, they're like embracing there

1325
01:18:08,160 --> 01:18:14,920
Speaker 3: and like fundamentally understanding from moment one their values and goals.

1326
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:19,640
Speaker 3: Like it's just she's so underwritten and and yeah, ultimately

1327
01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:22,240
Speaker 3: I think like you're saying, like presented as like it's

1328
01:18:22,320 --> 01:18:24,880
Speaker 3: the right thing for her to go to Spain in

1329
01:18:24,960 --> 01:18:26,720
Speaker 3: the same way that it's presented at the end of

1330
01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:30,679
Speaker 3: you know, Pocahontas. Well, I guess it's not. I guess poke,

1331
01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:35,320
Speaker 3: I'm talking about Pocahontas too, where it's like it's, uh, Pocahontas,

1332
01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:39,040
Speaker 3: you know, moving to England. She's she's just a fish

1333
01:18:39,040 --> 01:18:42,519
Speaker 3: out of water. This is funny, this is weird, and

1334
01:18:42,600 --> 01:18:45,880
Speaker 3: like I feel like these narratives are I mean, not

1335
01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:50,280
Speaker 3: only is the history done not at all and like

1336
01:18:50,320 --> 01:18:54,680
Speaker 3: presenting the colonizer's mindset, but it also like presents in

1337
01:18:54,720 --> 01:18:56,679
Speaker 3: the same way of like what you were saying before, Jose,

1338
01:18:56,840 --> 01:18:59,880
Speaker 3: of like, well, we just need to talk to each other,

1339
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:06,599
Speaker 3: and that completely erases any previous historical power dynamic between

1340
01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:12,320
Speaker 3: It presents all cultures as having experienced equal power throughout history,

1341
01:19:12,479 --> 01:19:16,840
Speaker 3: and like erases any reason why these like it's just

1342
01:19:17,560 --> 01:19:20,720
Speaker 3: it's like fantastical thinking.

1343
01:19:20,880 --> 01:19:24,200
Speaker 2: Right, and to an earlier point as far as like

1344
01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:27,960
Speaker 2: her being kind of mapped onto that woman who was

1345
01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:32,679
Speaker 2: later considered a trader, that is very much what Chelle

1346
01:19:33,040 --> 01:19:37,640
Speaker 2: is doing. She's betraying her own people by like sneakily

1347
01:19:37,840 --> 01:19:42,920
Speaker 2: helping the Europeans because her intentions are capitalistic, even though

1348
01:19:42,960 --> 01:19:46,839
Speaker 2: she would have no frame of reference for that ideology,

1349
01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:49,320
Speaker 2: but she wants a portion of the gold for herself.

1350
01:19:49,360 --> 01:19:51,240
Speaker 3: She negotiates girl boss.

1351
01:19:51,479 --> 01:19:55,120
Speaker 2: She right, like the ways in which she is an

1352
01:19:55,160 --> 01:19:58,800
Speaker 2: active character and who has agency, Like the context for

1353
01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:02,080
Speaker 2: it is like very girl stuff, So it's not good

1354
01:20:02,200 --> 01:20:07,720
Speaker 2: or feminist. You know, she's helping these white Westerners do colonialism.

1355
01:20:07,920 --> 01:20:12,640
Speaker 2: She's presented as believing that her people, her communities, customs

1356
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:16,400
Speaker 2: are just too quaint, they're too they're uncivilized actually, and

1357
01:20:16,439 --> 01:20:22,080
Speaker 2: she wants to join these Westerners, these colonizers on their adventures,

1358
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:24,240
Speaker 2: because she's like, I want to go to Spain with you.

1359
01:20:24,320 --> 01:20:29,559
Speaker 2: But historically, when Indigenous women were taken to Europe, they

1360
01:20:29,600 --> 01:20:33,120
Speaker 2: were being stolen and trafficked. And then again she's shown

1361
01:20:33,160 --> 01:20:38,960
Speaker 2: as seducing Tulio and they're having consensual sex in the movie,

1362
01:20:39,080 --> 01:20:44,080
Speaker 2: but again, in reality, white colonizers were routinely raping and

1363
01:20:44,200 --> 01:20:50,280
Speaker 2: murdering Indigenous women. So it's just rewriting all of that history.

1364
01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:53,960
Speaker 3: It's just like a complete void. It's yeah.

1365
01:20:54,000 --> 01:20:57,799
Speaker 2: And because she's positioned as a love interest for Tulio,

1366
01:20:57,880 --> 01:21:00,400
Speaker 2: because women can't exist in a story without being the

1367
01:21:00,439 --> 01:21:04,400
Speaker 2: love interest of a male hero, this movie does not

1368
01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:08,040
Speaker 2: pass the Ali Nati test created by Friend of the

1369
01:21:08,040 --> 01:21:12,040
Speaker 2: Pod Ali Naddi, which, if listeners aren't familiar, it is

1370
01:21:12,120 --> 01:21:15,519
Speaker 2: a test that in order to pass, a piece of

1371
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:18,960
Speaker 2: media has to have a main character who is an

1372
01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:23,880
Speaker 2: indigenous slash Aboriginal woman who does not fall in love

1373
01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:27,120
Speaker 2: with a white man, and who is not raped or

1374
01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:30,120
Speaker 2: murdered at any point in the story. So because she

1375
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:34,439
Speaker 2: falls in love with a white man and has a

1376
01:21:34,479 --> 01:21:40,280
Speaker 2: colonizer mindset, huge failure of the Ali Nati test, and

1377
01:21:40,320 --> 01:21:43,559
Speaker 2: she has to be saved by him at the end,

1378
01:21:43,600 --> 01:21:46,719
Speaker 2: and then she's removed from the action toward the end whenever,

1379
01:21:46,840 --> 01:21:52,000
Speaker 2: like the giant statue is attacking Tulio and Miguel. So

1380
01:21:52,600 --> 01:21:55,880
Speaker 2: just like tropes on top of tropes on top of tropes.

1381
01:21:55,800 --> 01:22:00,519
Speaker 4: I think that like what characterized that specifically, this moment

1382
01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:03,080
Speaker 4: that we were talking about in terms of indigenous representation,

1383
01:22:04,120 --> 01:22:07,520
Speaker 4: I guess with a lot of also ethnic and racial minorities,

1384
01:22:08,120 --> 01:22:13,720
Speaker 4: it was this condescension of kind of like not giving

1385
01:22:13,920 --> 01:22:17,000
Speaker 4: these characters the opportunity to be like real characters, and

1386
01:22:17,160 --> 01:22:19,519
Speaker 4: they just had to like wholly depend on these other

1387
01:22:19,600 --> 01:22:25,160
Speaker 4: narratives that were empathetic in name. But again, that condescension

1388
01:22:25,280 --> 01:22:28,800
Speaker 4: kind of makes it all fall flat. It just ends

1389
01:22:28,880 --> 01:22:32,519
Speaker 4: up feeling, which I think is like, I think one

1390
01:22:32,560 --> 01:22:36,800
Speaker 4: of the movies that try to do this and succeeded

1391
01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:39,720
Speaker 4: to like more than the others, I guess, is a

1392
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:43,120
Speaker 4: Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame, in which a lot of

1393
01:22:43,160 --> 01:22:45,880
Speaker 4: the problematic elements of the depiction are kind of written

1394
01:22:45,920 --> 01:22:49,800
Speaker 4: into the story, but the way the character herself is

1395
01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:54,840
Speaker 4: portrayed does not necessarily fall into this condescension. I think

1396
01:22:54,880 --> 01:22:58,240
Speaker 4: that's what makes Esmeralda in a Hunchback of notreiame kind

1397
01:22:58,240 --> 01:23:01,479
Speaker 4: of like an outlier in this specific era of animated movies,

1398
01:23:01,960 --> 01:23:05,120
Speaker 4: animated children, movies about racial tensions.

1399
01:23:06,200 --> 01:23:07,680
Speaker 3: But a wild subcategory.

1400
01:23:08,360 --> 01:23:14,880
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, it's weird that it happened so many times. Yeah,

1401
01:23:14,920 --> 01:23:20,040
Speaker 4: but and I know that portrayal that I'm referencing positively

1402
01:23:20,080 --> 01:23:23,280
Speaker 4: also has a lot of issues. But here you don't

1403
01:23:23,320 --> 01:23:27,080
Speaker 4: even get like that kind of actual agency or taking

1404
01:23:27,160 --> 01:23:31,120
Speaker 4: the character seriously in a way that kind of makes

1405
01:23:31,120 --> 01:23:36,800
Speaker 4: her memorable beyond her her design is very memorable for

1406
01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:40,240
Speaker 4: I mean, there is not great reasons you can.

1407
01:23:40,120 --> 01:23:42,320
Speaker 3: Trace a lot of Like I mean, I think so

1408
01:23:42,479 --> 01:23:46,200
Speaker 3: much of why this movie is thought of like pleasantly

1409
01:23:46,280 --> 01:23:48,960
Speaker 3: in retrospective is because it seems like, connected to the

1410
01:23:49,000 --> 01:23:53,760
Speaker 3: three main characters, a lot of people had sexual awakenings

1411
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:56,200
Speaker 3: connected to those.

1412
01:23:56,000 --> 01:24:01,200
Speaker 4: Characters, which it can respect, I guess, but yeah.

1413
01:24:02,640 --> 01:24:04,120
Speaker 2: It's like that's your truth.

1414
01:24:04,479 --> 01:24:08,480
Speaker 3: That's your truth. It does not make the movie.

1415
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:12,679
Speaker 4: Good or a hidden gem or underrated classic.

1416
01:24:13,160 --> 01:24:14,880
Speaker 3: Yeah. I feel like there is like so much of

1417
01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:18,240
Speaker 3: a movie criticisms, just like just because it made you

1418
01:24:18,360 --> 01:24:21,160
Speaker 3: horny when you were ten doesn't mean that it is

1419
01:24:21,240 --> 01:24:25,960
Speaker 3: a good or culturally valuable movie. But I think that

1420
01:24:25,960 --> 01:24:27,760
Speaker 3: that is a lot of unfortunately, and I'm sure we've

1421
01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:29,519
Speaker 3: been guilty of this at that point. A lot of

1422
01:24:29,560 --> 01:24:33,439
Speaker 3: millennial film criticism boils down to it made me horny

1423
01:24:33,479 --> 01:24:36,680
Speaker 3: when I was ten, and therefore I will do olympic

1424
01:24:36,840 --> 01:24:41,639
Speaker 3: backflips to find a way to declare this movie as

1425
01:24:41,800 --> 01:24:46,240
Speaker 3: technically great. And you're like, as, no, you got horny

1426
01:24:46,240 --> 01:24:50,000
Speaker 3: when you were ten, congratulations, Like where a lot of

1427
01:24:50,040 --> 01:24:53,440
Speaker 3: us are in the same boat. The characters are hyper sexualized,

1428
01:24:53,439 --> 01:24:56,320
Speaker 3: I think. I think like Chell obviously is because she's

1429
01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:59,599
Speaker 3: the only woman and she is very scantily clad, which

1430
01:24:59,640 --> 01:25:01,920
Speaker 3: also the the other women we see but don't hear

1431
01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:06,880
Speaker 3: speak are not. So she's also othered in the way

1432
01:25:06,920 --> 01:25:10,479
Speaker 3: that she like she's not wearing the same kind of

1433
01:25:10,520 --> 01:25:12,800
Speaker 3: outfit that others.

1434
01:25:12,560 --> 01:25:16,480
Speaker 4: Are, and it kind of ties into that her features

1435
01:25:16,479 --> 01:25:21,160
Speaker 4: are also not as sure right, like phenotypically indigenous as

1436
01:25:21,240 --> 01:25:23,040
Speaker 4: the other unspeak.

1437
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:25,519
Speaker 2: Like non speaking women.

1438
01:25:25,720 --> 01:25:27,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the word that I was looking for.

1439
01:25:27,840 --> 01:25:32,599
Speaker 3: Who're all presented as I think mothers because we mostly

1440
01:25:32,640 --> 01:25:35,759
Speaker 3: see them around children, But like, there's no other woman

1441
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:39,439
Speaker 3: in the story that not even has narrative agency but

1442
01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:43,680
Speaker 3: just does anything. It's like, it's wild.

1443
01:25:43,520 --> 01:25:48,800
Speaker 4: They're non entities essentially. Yeah, it's incredibly like even even

1444
01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:51,719
Speaker 4: at that point that must have felt very dated.

1445
01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:55,719
Speaker 3: That that tapers into something I wanted to acknowledge, which

1446
01:25:55,800 --> 01:26:00,760
Speaker 3: is that there were always haters of this and like

1447
01:26:00,880 --> 01:26:04,679
Speaker 3: from the moment it was released, there were protests done

1448
01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:09,120
Speaker 3: on the representation of Indigenous culture outside of screenings. I

1449
01:26:09,160 --> 01:26:11,160
Speaker 3: don't think that that was the reason that this movie

1450
01:26:11,400 --> 01:26:14,640
Speaker 3: failed financially. Most of the criticism you can find from

1451
01:26:14,680 --> 01:26:17,800
Speaker 3: the movie at the time was like the movie isn't

1452
01:26:17,880 --> 01:26:22,280
Speaker 3: very good versus it is perpetuating a very colonized or

1453
01:26:22,479 --> 01:26:27,000
Speaker 3: racist viewpoint. So it suffered from a lot. But I

1454
01:26:27,040 --> 01:26:30,000
Speaker 3: wanted to just revisit this op ed published in the

1455
01:26:30,120 --> 01:26:33,760
Speaker 3: La Times when this movie came out from a writer

1456
01:26:33,920 --> 01:26:37,800
Speaker 3: named Olin to Scott Leipoca, who was at the time

1457
01:26:38,000 --> 01:26:42,280
Speaker 3: the director of the Machika Movement and Indigenous Rights Education

1458
01:26:42,600 --> 01:26:47,479
Speaker 3: Organization specifically about people of Mexican and Central American descent,

1459
01:26:48,360 --> 01:26:51,000
Speaker 3: And this was published around the same time that there were,

1460
01:26:51,640 --> 01:26:54,799
Speaker 3: I think driven by, but not defined by the Michika

1461
01:26:54,800 --> 01:26:57,800
Speaker 3: Movement protests of this movie in the way that it

1462
01:26:58,120 --> 01:27:01,800
Speaker 3: portrayed indigenous culture in general. And I want to just

1463
01:27:01,840 --> 01:27:04,360
Speaker 3: read from it because I feel like it's really easy

1464
01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:08,640
Speaker 3: for us to characterize now like, oh, well, in hindsight,

1465
01:27:08,720 --> 01:27:11,559
Speaker 3: we can see that this was wrong, when very often

1466
01:27:12,520 --> 01:27:15,360
Speaker 3: those criticisms were very present and just not talked about

1467
01:27:15,439 --> 01:27:17,920
Speaker 3: very much when the movie actually came out. So the

1468
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:21,320
Speaker 3: piece opens by, you know, well, I'll just read from it.

1469
01:27:21,320 --> 01:27:25,000
Speaker 3: There's a lot worth reading. Imagine you're leaving a couple

1470
01:27:25,000 --> 01:27:27,120
Speaker 3: of centuries in the future and have never heard of

1471
01:27:27,160 --> 01:27:30,400
Speaker 3: World War two or Nazis. Further, imagine that you're being

1472
01:27:30,400 --> 01:27:33,519
Speaker 3: shown a movie about the Nazi commandant portrayed as a happy,

1473
01:27:33,520 --> 01:27:37,280
Speaker 3: go lucky, romantic guy at a concentration camp. This is

1474
01:27:37,320 --> 01:27:40,880
Speaker 3: a recreational Jewish camp where everyone is picnicking and having

1475
01:27:40,880 --> 01:27:45,280
Speaker 3: a great time. Fritz, who is the character that the

1476
01:27:45,320 --> 01:27:48,800
Speaker 3: Raiders naming whatever, is constantly looking to get rich off

1477
01:27:48,840 --> 01:27:52,120
Speaker 3: the Jewish campers, and they freely offer him their gold fillings,

1478
01:27:52,200 --> 01:27:55,599
Speaker 3: Swiss savings accounts, and other valuables. He meets an evil

1479
01:27:55,680 --> 01:27:58,599
Speaker 3: rabbi who wants the valuables for himself, and a beautiful

1480
01:27:58,640 --> 01:28:01,679
Speaker 3: Jewish girl who offers herself as a sex toy without

1481
01:28:01,680 --> 01:28:05,040
Speaker 3: ever mentioning World War II. Nazis or the Holocaust. The

1482
01:28:05,080 --> 01:28:07,600
Speaker 3: film ends with Fritz living happily ever after with the

1483
01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:10,400
Speaker 3: wealth he has acquired from the Jewish people at the camp.

1484
01:28:11,000 --> 01:28:13,760
Speaker 3: This racist, sexist scenario of lies is the equivalent to

1485
01:28:13,800 --> 01:28:16,000
Speaker 3: what is being done to us, the indigenous people of

1486
01:28:16,040 --> 01:28:19,479
Speaker 3: Mexican and Central American descent by the new animated film

1487
01:28:19,560 --> 01:28:23,719
Speaker 3: The Road to El Dorado, Steven Spielberg's DreamWorks and Universal

1488
01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:26,760
Speaker 3: Studios present the story of two Spaniards who stow away

1489
01:28:26,800 --> 01:28:28,800
Speaker 3: to the New World in the sixteenth century and wind

1490
01:28:28,880 --> 01:28:31,040
Speaker 3: up saving the village of El Dorado from a powerful

1491
01:28:31,080 --> 01:28:34,639
Speaker 3: priest intent on carrying out human sacrifices. This is an

1492
01:28:34,640 --> 01:28:38,280
Speaker 3: outrage given the reality that the Spanish conquerors were responsible

1493
01:28:38,320 --> 01:28:41,080
Speaker 3: for the genocide of twenty three million of our people,

1494
01:28:41,439 --> 01:28:44,840
Speaker 3: killing ninety five percent of our population. The film makes

1495
01:28:44,840 --> 01:28:46,960
Speaker 3: it look as if we were immoral and evil, when

1496
01:28:47,000 --> 01:28:50,439
Speaker 3: it was the Spaniards who were immoral. They stole our gold, labor,

1497
01:28:50,520 --> 01:28:54,479
Speaker 3: and land. They raped and culturally castrated our population, enslaving

1498
01:28:54,600 --> 01:28:58,720
Speaker 3: us to their Spanish names, language, and interests. DreamWorks is

1499
01:28:58,720 --> 01:29:01,479
Speaker 3: claiming that the film is a complete fantasy fairy tale,

1500
01:29:01,880 --> 01:29:05,280
Speaker 3: but the scenario of the concentration camp above would never

1501
01:29:05,280 --> 01:29:08,400
Speaker 3: be accepted as a complete fantasy fairy tale by anyone.

1502
01:29:08,920 --> 01:29:11,719
Speaker 3: DreamWorks thinks it's acceptable here because the story is only

1503
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:15,960
Speaker 3: about Indigenous people. They have no respect for people, no shame,

1504
01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:19,640
Speaker 3: and the piece goes on. We'll link it in the

1505
01:29:19,680 --> 01:29:23,200
Speaker 3: description to this episode. But it's it's clear that, you know,

1506
01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:28,480
Speaker 3: since this movie came out, people have been understandably outraged

1507
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:32,160
Speaker 3: about it and hearing it compared to the Holocaust in

1508
01:29:32,240 --> 01:29:35,760
Speaker 3: that way. I mean, we are talking about a genocide

1509
01:29:36,360 --> 01:29:39,880
Speaker 3: of equivalent and the fact that one is you know

1510
01:29:39,960 --> 01:29:44,280
Speaker 3: that because it is an indigenous population, everyone is happy

1511
01:29:44,320 --> 01:29:47,240
Speaker 3: to accept the narrative being presented.

1512
01:29:47,800 --> 01:29:48,000
Speaker 5: Right.

1513
01:29:48,120 --> 01:29:52,640
Speaker 4: It's like so sad because we are already coming in

1514
01:29:52,680 --> 01:29:54,880
Speaker 4: at the end of like not at the end, but

1515
01:29:54,920 --> 01:29:57,360
Speaker 4: like at the we we are coming in after like

1516
01:29:58,520 --> 01:30:02,160
Speaker 4: decades and decades of stories that perpetrate those exact like

1517
01:30:02,479 --> 01:30:07,040
Speaker 4: mistruths surrounding the colonization of the Americas, that have become

1518
01:30:07,080 --> 01:30:10,080
Speaker 4: so normalized to a point that people just assume that

1519
01:30:10,160 --> 01:30:14,519
Speaker 4: certain things were are as depicted in these kinds of stories,

1520
01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:18,960
Speaker 4: which were started relatively shortly after the conquest in order

1521
01:30:19,000 --> 01:30:24,160
Speaker 4: to perpetrate this idea of civilization. This idea, like this

1522
01:30:24,280 --> 01:30:27,920
Speaker 4: kind of like white men's burden esque idea that I

1523
01:30:27,960 --> 01:30:30,040
Speaker 4: feel like it is very present in the movie. That

1524
01:30:30,160 --> 01:30:32,679
Speaker 4: is literally one of my notes that it's super white

1525
01:30:32,680 --> 01:30:36,360
Speaker 4: man's burden coded, not even coded, it's just straight up

1526
01:30:36,439 --> 01:30:40,240
Speaker 4: kind of that. But it's very textual and the way

1527
01:30:40,280 --> 01:30:43,479
Speaker 4: that these stories keep it between things that are assumed,

1528
01:30:43,760 --> 01:30:47,320
Speaker 4: like just taken for granted, like the whole human sacrifice

1529
01:30:47,360 --> 01:30:50,400
Speaker 4: aspect that has become a huge component of stories about

1530
01:30:50,400 --> 01:30:53,360
Speaker 4: indigenous people, which like in a lot of ways they

1531
01:30:53,400 --> 01:30:56,960
Speaker 4: exaggerate and if human sacrifice what was happening in in

1532
01:30:57,000 --> 01:31:01,000
Speaker 4: the America is like, yeah, that is I guess bad obviously,

1533
01:31:01,120 --> 01:31:05,000
Speaker 4: but it is not a thing where the Europeans coming

1534
01:31:05,040 --> 01:31:08,400
Speaker 4: in had any moral authority in regards to handling it,

1535
01:31:08,439 --> 01:31:11,000
Speaker 4: because not only did they carry out a genocide, but

1536
01:31:11,640 --> 01:31:14,439
Speaker 4: like human sacrifice through a peace gods, is what the

1537
01:31:14,479 --> 01:31:17,760
Speaker 4: Spanish Inquisition was all about, and that was in full

1538
01:31:17,840 --> 01:31:21,200
Speaker 4: swing at the time that this movie takes place. So

1539
01:31:21,760 --> 01:31:24,680
Speaker 4: it always reframes things in a way that when you

1540
01:31:24,720 --> 01:31:27,120
Speaker 4: hear about the Spanish Inquisition, it's like, oh, yeah, that's

1541
01:31:27,400 --> 01:31:31,639
Speaker 4: that's messed up, But you hear human sacrifice that is like, oh, yeah,

1542
01:31:32,320 --> 01:31:35,360
Speaker 4: it was a battle between two evils, or there's this

1543
01:31:35,479 --> 01:31:39,120
Speaker 4: whole series of myths that are told to justify it,

1544
01:31:39,200 --> 01:31:42,639
Speaker 4: like oh, but so many tribes ally themselves with Cortez

1545
01:31:42,760 --> 01:31:46,719
Speaker 4: to take down the Aztec Empire. And it's like yeah,

1546
01:31:46,720 --> 01:31:49,400
Speaker 4: but like do you know that because of stories written

1547
01:31:49,479 --> 01:31:54,360
Speaker 4: by the Spanish people that were like probably forcibly recruiting

1548
01:31:54,960 --> 01:31:57,840
Speaker 4: Native soldiers in order to do this, or like they

1549
01:31:57,880 --> 01:32:01,879
Speaker 4: were welcomed as God's things, which has never been present

1550
01:32:02,040 --> 01:32:05,920
Speaker 4: in indigenous narratives about their own history, but it's always

1551
01:32:05,960 --> 01:32:09,120
Speaker 4: present in these kinds of stories when there is no

1552
01:32:09,240 --> 01:32:13,679
Speaker 4: actual historical evidence that Europeans were ever taken in as

1553
01:32:13,720 --> 01:32:17,479
Speaker 4: like gods when they arrived to the New Continent, Right, that's.

1554
01:32:17,320 --> 01:32:21,160
Speaker 3: A story that they they indicated, Yeah.

1555
01:32:20,880 --> 01:32:25,640
Speaker 4: They told themselves. It's like this thing where in I

1556
01:32:25,720 --> 01:32:29,080
Speaker 4: don't know the specifics of it, but in certain indigenous

1557
01:32:29,160 --> 01:32:31,400
Speaker 4: narratives I don't remember telling where I know they were

1558
01:32:31,400 --> 01:32:33,880
Speaker 4: mess for American but the whole thing was like, oh,

1559
01:32:33,920 --> 01:32:36,760
Speaker 4: they thought they were being received as gods because they

1560
01:32:36,800 --> 01:32:39,479
Speaker 4: were being received with like these like ointments and like

1561
01:32:39,520 --> 01:32:42,320
Speaker 4: this instance type things and stuff. But in reality, it's

1562
01:32:42,360 --> 01:32:44,320
Speaker 4: just that they just got off a ship and they

1563
01:32:44,360 --> 01:32:47,080
Speaker 4: smelled really bad, and so they were like kind of

1564
01:32:47,120 --> 01:32:49,280
Speaker 4: like purifying the air around them, and they thought it

1565
01:32:49,320 --> 01:32:50,760
Speaker 4: was a sign of honor. I don't know if this

1566
01:32:50,880 --> 01:32:55,320
Speaker 4: is like actually based on historical narrative, indigenous historical narrative,

1567
01:32:55,360 --> 01:32:58,000
Speaker 4: but it kind of demonstrates that, like notion that there

1568
01:32:58,040 --> 01:33:01,519
Speaker 4: are always going to be different to this official story

1569
01:33:01,600 --> 01:33:05,360
Speaker 4: regarding the colonization of the Americas, and it does not

1570
01:33:05,760 --> 01:33:10,439
Speaker 4: do anyone any favors to misportray them, even if you're

1571
01:33:10,760 --> 01:33:13,800
Speaker 4: elevating them to the realm of fantasy, which it's not

1572
01:33:13,880 --> 01:33:16,519
Speaker 4: like it's it might be a fairy tale, it might

1573
01:33:16,560 --> 01:33:20,240
Speaker 4: be like a fantasy history, but you are participating in

1574
01:33:20,640 --> 01:33:25,680
Speaker 4: not only the retelling but the perpetration of this. It's

1575
01:33:25,680 --> 01:33:31,080
Speaker 4: perpetration or real word, sorry, perpetrating. I think so, yeah,

1576
01:33:31,160 --> 01:33:35,720
Speaker 4: you're perpetrating the story is in the first place, like

1577
01:33:35,760 --> 01:33:39,400
Speaker 4: you're making sure that they keep getting told. But these

1578
01:33:39,439 --> 01:33:45,320
Speaker 4: lies or these like racist myths keep getting told, and

1579
01:33:45,439 --> 01:33:49,519
Speaker 4: that is just a deservice to the victims of the

1580
01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:53,439
Speaker 4: genocide that was brought forth by colonization, but also to

1581
01:33:53,520 --> 01:33:56,800
Speaker 4: the ongoing consequences of it. The fact that you know

1582
01:33:56,920 --> 01:34:01,280
Speaker 4: Indigenous people in all across the Americas are still subjected

1583
01:34:01,360 --> 01:34:08,160
Speaker 4: to systemic discrimination, to disproportionate poverty, to sexual violence. These

1584
01:34:08,200 --> 01:34:12,200
Speaker 4: are all all, in one way or another part of

1585
01:34:12,240 --> 01:34:16,320
Speaker 4: this story that is like this animated kids movie. Like

1586
01:34:16,360 --> 01:34:18,400
Speaker 4: in any other movie, I would like this kind of

1587
01:34:18,560 --> 01:34:20,600
Speaker 4: ending of like, oh, well, we don't have anything, but

1588
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:23,519
Speaker 4: we're going to keep going and adventure and whatever. It's

1589
01:34:23,520 --> 01:34:26,360
Speaker 4: like I like that sentiment, but if it follows like

1590
01:34:26,960 --> 01:34:32,400
Speaker 4: ninety minutes of these people taking their white man's burden

1591
01:34:32,439 --> 01:34:36,960
Speaker 4: over this fictional indigenous culture, it just ends up bringing

1592
01:34:37,040 --> 01:34:40,240
Speaker 4: very hollow like the people did not venture there to

1593
01:34:40,800 --> 01:34:43,839
Speaker 4: with nothing and just make their luck. They actively stole,

1594
01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:50,080
Speaker 4: they actively ravaged, they murdered, they kidnapped, etc. And it

1595
01:34:50,280 --> 01:34:53,559
Speaker 4: just makes me kind of angry. Despite how charming the

1596
01:34:53,640 --> 01:34:56,840
Speaker 4: movie might be at point, it's.

1597
01:34:56,479 --> 01:35:01,040
Speaker 3: Just that's like it's the friendly Colonizer that again, it's like,

1598
01:35:01,400 --> 01:35:04,240
Speaker 3: because we know that these character are being presented in

1599
01:35:04,280 --> 01:35:07,559
Speaker 3: a way that's palatable, they're being played by white movie stars,

1600
01:35:07,560 --> 01:35:11,040
Speaker 3: and like, you know, everything is setting us up or

1601
01:35:11,040 --> 01:35:13,760
Speaker 3: setting up an uninformed audience, which I think the majority

1602
01:35:13,760 --> 01:35:17,640
Speaker 3: of this audience would have been to children right to

1603
01:35:17,760 --> 01:35:20,040
Speaker 3: swallow it all because you're like, oh, well, this is

1604
01:35:20,080 --> 01:35:22,360
Speaker 3: the funny guy, because the music and the animation and

1605
01:35:22,400 --> 01:35:24,360
Speaker 3: the focus is telling me that this is the person

1606
01:35:24,439 --> 01:35:27,479
Speaker 3: I should be rooting for. And yeah, it's like giving

1607
01:35:28,320 --> 01:35:31,320
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, even Cortes receiving I think at

1608
01:35:31,360 --> 01:35:35,439
Speaker 3: best neutral press, you know, over four hundred years later

1609
01:35:35,720 --> 01:35:37,520
Speaker 3: is unbelievable.

1610
01:35:37,720 --> 01:35:40,720
Speaker 2: It's that he is not the primary villain, and that

1611
01:35:41,360 --> 01:35:43,160
Speaker 2: an indigenous character is.

1612
01:35:43,320 --> 01:35:45,200
Speaker 3: A heavily trope the primary villain.

1613
01:35:45,400 --> 01:35:48,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, the magical sinister uh.

1614
01:35:48,200 --> 01:35:51,799
Speaker 2: Right, right, perpetuating that trope of the you know, magical,

1615
01:35:51,840 --> 01:35:53,360
Speaker 2: mystical indigenous person.

1616
01:35:53,880 --> 01:35:58,519
Speaker 3: The elements of El Dorado's culture that we are shown,

1617
01:35:58,840 --> 01:36:02,400
Speaker 3: sub of which is pulled from real indigenous culture, some

1618
01:36:02,439 --> 01:36:05,639
Speaker 3: of which is made up, is like it's ultimately shown

1619
01:36:05,680 --> 01:36:11,520
Speaker 3: to be like beautiful but silly, and the Hibalba sequence

1620
01:36:11,760 --> 01:36:14,400
Speaker 3: is like played for comedy. It's played for like why

1621
01:36:14,439 --> 01:36:17,759
Speaker 3: would you do this? And does no examination into why

1622
01:36:18,000 --> 01:36:22,160
Speaker 3: this was a real practice or I mean Jako Khan's character,

1623
01:36:22,680 --> 01:36:27,360
Speaker 3: any element of the religion that's present is shown to

1624
01:36:27,360 --> 01:36:31,880
Speaker 3: be a force of evil and the reason that we

1625
01:36:31,960 --> 01:36:35,920
Speaker 3: are supposed to like Shelle, she has no connection to

1626
01:36:36,000 --> 01:36:38,840
Speaker 3: her culture at all. The reason that we're rooting for

1627
01:36:38,880 --> 01:36:42,080
Speaker 3: her is because and like the times we are laughing,

1628
01:36:42,200 --> 01:36:46,920
Speaker 3: is because she's engaging with capitalism like that is like her,

1629
01:36:47,040 --> 01:36:51,759
Speaker 3: only like he he gatcha moments are her negotiating, right,

1630
01:36:51,840 --> 01:36:55,400
Speaker 3: It's ridiculous. So even when we are shown, you know,

1631
01:36:55,479 --> 01:36:59,919
Speaker 3: an attempt at culture, it's always like with this implied

1632
01:37:00,120 --> 01:37:03,160
Speaker 3: eye roll of like, well, of course this doesn't work.

1633
01:37:03,320 --> 01:37:07,599
Speaker 3: Of course this culture is not present today because it's silly,

1634
01:37:07,720 --> 01:37:10,680
Speaker 3: not because it was willfully extinguiradicated.

1635
01:37:11,800 --> 01:37:14,439
Speaker 4: Right. And the idea that in some way to a

1636
01:37:14,479 --> 01:37:21,320
Speaker 4: white guys participated in preserving a part of this the culture.

1637
01:37:21,160 --> 01:37:24,280
Speaker 2: By stealing off the city from.

1638
01:37:24,000 --> 01:37:28,920
Speaker 4: The protecting it from exactly, it's just so in poor taste.

1639
01:37:29,439 --> 01:37:32,040
Speaker 4: The example in the in the op ed that you

1640
01:37:32,080 --> 01:37:35,479
Speaker 4: mentioned Jamie really like drives a point home. Just because

1641
01:37:35,520 --> 01:37:40,120
Speaker 4: these figures are so historically separated from us by time

1642
01:37:40,320 --> 01:37:43,960
Speaker 4: does not mean that they are fair game for this, right,

1643
01:37:44,280 --> 01:37:46,519
Speaker 4: and in fact it ends up being in very poor

1644
01:37:46,600 --> 01:37:51,360
Speaker 4: taste when you realize the consequences of the events portrayed

1645
01:37:51,400 --> 01:37:54,080
Speaker 4: in the movie, even if they're portrayed from like this

1646
01:37:54,479 --> 01:37:56,320
Speaker 4: whimsical fictional point.

1647
01:37:57,160 --> 01:37:59,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to. Unfortunately I do want to call

1648
01:37:59,760 --> 01:38:03,519
Speaker 3: back to that song sixteenth century Man that I'm glad

1649
01:38:03,560 --> 01:38:05,519
Speaker 3: doesn't have greater prominence in the movie, but I feel

1650
01:38:05,520 --> 01:38:09,519
Speaker 3: like it just really betrays what this movie's beliefs are

1651
01:38:09,600 --> 01:38:14,280
Speaker 3: rooted in. Because Elton john wrote and recorded this, Oh,

1652
01:38:14,320 --> 01:38:17,480
Speaker 3: it's great to say our homeland breathe the Iberian atmosphere.

1653
01:38:17,680 --> 01:38:22,400
Speaker 3: Just because we are Hispanic doesn't mean we're oceanic. Quite frankly,

1654
01:38:22,439 --> 01:38:25,680
Speaker 3: we've had water up to hear, we've made waves to

1655
01:38:25,760 --> 01:38:30,400
Speaker 3: last a lifetime. We've been saturated, almost drowned. We are Spanish,

1656
01:38:30,520 --> 01:38:35,120
Speaker 3: not Caribbean. We are human not Amphibian. We'll seek our

1657
01:38:35,160 --> 01:38:40,160
Speaker 3: fortunes on Spain's solid ground. Just on the soundtrack of

1658
01:38:40,600 --> 01:38:44,960
Speaker 3: this movie. And it's unbelievably violent and dismissive and like

1659
01:38:45,360 --> 01:38:50,719
Speaker 3: comparing Caribbean people to amphibian and yeah to animals animal

1660
01:38:50,720 --> 01:38:55,360
Speaker 3: like just saying like Spanish people human indigenous populations. Not

1661
01:38:56,080 --> 01:38:57,719
Speaker 3: that's just in an Elton Johnson.

1662
01:38:58,320 --> 01:39:02,639
Speaker 4: I need to talk to who who was this Tim Rice?

1663
01:39:02,760 --> 01:39:04,080
Speaker 4: Who did the lyrics?

1664
01:39:04,320 --> 01:39:07,000
Speaker 3: Uh, let me check that is a good question.

1665
01:39:07,240 --> 01:39:10,040
Speaker 4: It was Tim Rise. Okay, I need to have a

1666
01:39:10,080 --> 01:39:14,080
Speaker 4: conversation with Tim Rice to sit him down. Sir tim Rise,

1667
01:39:14,520 --> 01:39:15,400
Speaker 4: we need to talk.

1668
01:39:16,000 --> 01:39:19,519
Speaker 2: Well, even a song that is in the movie and

1669
01:39:19,600 --> 01:39:22,599
Speaker 2: not in whatever like a credit sequence, I think it's

1670
01:39:22,880 --> 01:39:27,439
Speaker 2: happening when they are like montaging their way through the

1671
01:39:27,520 --> 01:39:31,920
Speaker 2: forest and the lyrics are about how they're blazing a

1672
01:39:32,000 --> 01:39:36,640
Speaker 2: trail and going into uncharted territory, which like pushes that

1673
01:39:36,760 --> 01:39:41,040
Speaker 2: false narrative of Western discovery, erasing the fact and they're

1674
01:39:41,080 --> 01:39:45,640
Speaker 2: coming upon like clearly man made structures and it's like

1675
01:39:45,760 --> 01:39:47,599
Speaker 2: we are the first to be here, and it's like, well,

1676
01:39:47,600 --> 01:39:50,519
Speaker 2: who made those that? Like it's just erasing the fact

1677
01:39:50,520 --> 01:39:54,400
Speaker 2: that indigenous people had already been there for millennia. But

1678
01:39:54,520 --> 01:39:57,720
Speaker 2: that doesn't match up with their you know, narrative that

1679
01:39:57,760 --> 01:40:00,320
Speaker 2: they have to push that, no, we discovered.

1680
01:39:59,840 --> 01:40:03,080
Speaker 3: This well, hose that that I think it connects back

1681
01:40:03,120 --> 01:40:06,280
Speaker 3: to what your your video from a few years ago

1682
01:40:06,439 --> 01:40:08,880
Speaker 3: is about that. So many, even though this movie wasn't

1683
01:40:08,920 --> 01:40:15,960
Speaker 3: particularly successful, that Hollywood adventure movies are rooted in this

1684
01:40:16,600 --> 01:40:22,040
Speaker 3: very colonial mentality of discovery not claiming something that is

1685
01:40:22,080 --> 01:40:24,759
Speaker 3: not yours. I mean, I know, you talked about Indiana Jones,

1686
01:40:24,800 --> 01:40:26,720
Speaker 3: you talked about Tintin, you talked about all of these

1687
01:40:26,760 --> 01:40:30,120
Speaker 3: sort of famous I know Tintin's not American, but you

1688
01:40:30,160 --> 01:40:33,880
Speaker 3: know all of these famous Western and European narratives that

1689
01:40:34,160 --> 01:40:35,800
Speaker 3: present this very uncritically.

1690
01:40:36,400 --> 01:40:39,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it hurts a little because, you know, this

1691
01:40:39,520 --> 01:40:42,479
Speaker 4: is a genre that I've always really enjoyed. I've always

1692
01:40:42,600 --> 01:40:46,240
Speaker 4: liked the idea of it, and it pushed me to

1693
01:40:46,280 --> 01:40:49,679
Speaker 4: like learn about like geography and about like all these

1694
01:40:49,720 --> 01:40:52,720
Speaker 4: like ancient wonders of the world and stuff like that,

1695
01:40:52,800 --> 01:40:56,559
Speaker 4: because I like the idea of these journeying to different

1696
01:40:56,840 --> 01:41:00,360
Speaker 4: places and you know, for the sake of adventure, and

1697
01:41:00,600 --> 01:41:02,720
Speaker 4: I'm obviously growing up you start to realize that a

1698
01:41:02,720 --> 01:41:08,160
Speaker 4: lot of it pushes these like colonialist narratives of discovery,

1699
01:41:08,280 --> 01:41:13,200
Speaker 4: of like pillaging of all these real world atrocities in

1700
01:41:13,240 --> 01:41:16,400
Speaker 4: a way that are just kind of you don't think

1701
01:41:16,400 --> 01:41:20,240
Speaker 4: about that much because harryson Ford is incredibly charming and

1702
01:41:20,400 --> 01:41:28,840
Speaker 4: hot and please call me but.

1703
01:41:27,720 --> 01:41:30,599
Speaker 2: Apologize for some of your movies.

1704
01:41:30,800 --> 01:41:33,519
Speaker 4: But I do love Indiana Jones movies, and I do

1705
01:41:33,600 --> 01:41:37,040
Speaker 4: think that it is interesting that my favorite one is

1706
01:41:37,280 --> 01:41:40,120
Speaker 4: The Last Crusade, and I mentioned that one video it

1707
01:41:40,200 --> 01:41:41,680
Speaker 4: is the best one.

1708
01:41:41,160 --> 01:41:44,400
Speaker 3: And that's something I have no attachment to whatsoever. And

1709
01:41:44,400 --> 01:41:46,280
Speaker 3: you're like, these are racists next, you know.

1710
01:41:48,320 --> 01:41:51,320
Speaker 4: But what I like so much about that one specifically

1711
01:41:51,600 --> 01:41:55,960
Speaker 4: is that he kind of realizes that not everything needs

1712
01:41:56,000 --> 01:41:58,479
Speaker 4: to be discovered, that not everything has to be in

1713
01:41:58,520 --> 01:42:00,840
Speaker 4: a museum, that you can leave the alone. And he

1714
01:42:00,920 --> 01:42:04,080
Speaker 4: only discovers that when the item in question is like

1715
01:42:04,080 --> 01:42:06,559
Speaker 4: the Holy Grail. It's like part of in a way,

1716
01:42:06,600 --> 01:42:12,479
Speaker 4: he's upbringing. He's like Catholic or Christian upbringing. I really

1717
01:42:12,560 --> 01:42:15,080
Speaker 4: like that, and I feel like that opens the doors

1718
01:42:15,160 --> 01:42:19,360
Speaker 4: up for like all sorts of different stories that can

1719
01:42:19,360 --> 01:42:21,759
Speaker 4: indulge in all these fun things that we love about

1720
01:42:21,760 --> 01:42:25,800
Speaker 4: the adventure genre that this movie clearly has a love for,

1721
01:42:26,600 --> 01:42:29,080
Speaker 4: in like that whole song about like blazing the trail

1722
01:42:29,160 --> 01:42:32,760
Speaker 4: and everything. That's like the charm of these stories, but

1723
01:42:32,840 --> 01:42:34,599
Speaker 4: we can engage with them in a way that does

1724
01:42:34,680 --> 01:42:38,280
Speaker 4: not alienate real cultures, that that does not like treat

1725
01:42:38,320 --> 01:42:41,760
Speaker 4: them as The reason why I made the video specifically

1726
01:42:41,800 --> 01:42:44,719
Speaker 4: surrounding the City of Gold narrative and the Eldorado narrative

1727
01:42:44,840 --> 01:42:49,200
Speaker 4: is that it is a great encapsulation of you know,

1728
01:42:49,280 --> 01:42:52,000
Speaker 4: Europeans just made up a place and then this destroyed

1729
01:42:52,040 --> 01:42:55,120
Speaker 4: like the continent looking for it, and now it has

1730
01:42:55,160 --> 01:42:58,720
Speaker 4: become like this like stand in for a lot of

1731
01:42:58,800 --> 01:43:03,040
Speaker 4: real cultures, a lot of real places that were lost

1732
01:43:03,280 --> 01:43:07,840
Speaker 4: to colonization. They're not lost geographically, they're lost because they

1733
01:43:07,840 --> 01:43:11,800
Speaker 4: were destroyed by colonization. And there are a lot of

1734
01:43:11,800 --> 01:43:15,000
Speaker 4: ways to indulge in the in the genre, to explore

1735
01:43:15,040 --> 01:43:19,920
Speaker 4: the genre in ways that reconnect real people with real

1736
01:43:20,120 --> 01:43:22,799
Speaker 4: lost things instead of having to make them up, instead

1737
01:43:22,800 --> 01:43:25,920
Speaker 4: of having to make up these cultures to make fun

1738
01:43:25,960 --> 01:43:28,640
Speaker 4: of them.

1739
01:43:27,400 --> 01:43:30,080
Speaker 2: Such as Mowana, which I know you bring up in

1740
01:43:30,120 --> 01:43:34,160
Speaker 2: your video and they're big fans of that movie. But

1741
01:43:34,280 --> 01:43:36,800
Speaker 2: even that, I mean not without its problems. It was

1742
01:43:36,840 --> 01:43:39,639
Speaker 2: made by yeah, white filmmakers.

1743
01:43:38,960 --> 01:43:41,599
Speaker 4: But it is it is the step in like, oh,

1744
01:43:41,920 --> 01:43:44,840
Speaker 4: she is discovering something about her own past, about her

1745
01:43:44,880 --> 01:43:48,080
Speaker 4: own culture, and she's setting off to find it because

1746
01:43:48,120 --> 01:43:51,400
Speaker 4: it was at some point stolen, there was at some

1747
01:43:51,439 --> 01:43:54,240
Speaker 4: point like misplaced or stuffing like that. I love that.

1748
01:43:54,360 --> 01:43:57,200
Speaker 4: I love that angle. And obviously Mona was still made

1749
01:43:57,200 --> 01:44:01,040
Speaker 4: by white guys and by the Disney Core creation, but

1750
01:44:01,560 --> 01:44:05,800
Speaker 4: it is a way of having more being aware of

1751
01:44:05,920 --> 01:44:08,559
Speaker 4: the art that you're making and the consequences, the real

1752
01:44:08,640 --> 01:44:10,200
Speaker 4: world consequences that they have.

1753
01:44:10,520 --> 01:44:10,760
Speaker 3: Right.

1754
01:44:11,320 --> 01:44:12,240
Speaker 4: I do love Moana.

1755
01:44:12,840 --> 01:44:16,320
Speaker 3: I know so I'm so excited for Mowana too, I know,

1756
01:44:16,439 --> 01:44:18,360
Speaker 3: but I well, this is a whole other thing. But

1757
01:44:18,439 --> 01:44:20,960
Speaker 3: they did not get Limbwell Miranda to write the music,

1758
01:44:21,040 --> 01:44:24,640
Speaker 3: the only thing he's good for writing music for Moana.

1759
01:44:24,960 --> 01:44:27,040
Speaker 4: They got. Yeah.

1760
01:44:27,400 --> 01:44:31,599
Speaker 3: I was like, yah, prospects if they if they, if

1761
01:44:31,600 --> 01:44:34,599
Speaker 3: they fuck up Mowana, I just I don't know what

1762
01:44:34,600 --> 01:44:38,240
Speaker 3: I'll do. Yeah, I don't know. I guess yeah. I

1763
01:44:38,280 --> 01:44:41,880
Speaker 3: don't understand more than ever. I mean, like, the reclaiming

1764
01:44:41,920 --> 01:44:44,479
Speaker 3: of this narrative is never quite tracked for me. I

1765
01:44:44,600 --> 01:44:47,760
Speaker 3: understand that there is a nostalgia, but I feel I

1766
01:44:47,800 --> 01:44:52,479
Speaker 3: wish ultimately that there was a step back in general

1767
01:44:53,120 --> 01:44:57,360
Speaker 3: from conflating nostalgia with morality, which is what I think

1768
01:44:57,360 --> 01:44:59,880
Speaker 3: a lot of these reclaiming narratives have to do, is

1769
01:45:00,120 --> 01:45:04,479
Speaker 3: that it is the morally upright and correct thing to

1770
01:45:05,520 --> 01:45:07,640
Speaker 3: you know, say that this movie is doing something that

1771
01:45:07,680 --> 01:45:10,920
Speaker 3: it very clearly is not, or that like you're just

1772
01:45:10,960 --> 01:45:14,720
Speaker 3: not watching it correctly. It's like, you, nostalgia should be

1773
01:45:14,840 --> 01:45:19,080
Speaker 3: removed from a critical view. That's like like what we

1774
01:45:19,160 --> 01:45:21,479
Speaker 3: attempt to do all the time, and it's fucking hard,

1775
01:45:21,800 --> 01:45:25,360
Speaker 3: you know, but this movie feels like a particular one

1776
01:45:25,400 --> 01:45:29,680
Speaker 3: where it has been aggressively reclaimed I think by focusing

1777
01:45:29,840 --> 01:45:33,760
Speaker 3: on elements of the movie that are more fun and

1778
01:45:33,840 --> 01:45:36,599
Speaker 3: kind of YadA yachting and the rest and being like, well,

1779
01:45:36,640 --> 01:45:39,160
Speaker 3: sure it doesn't hold up, well, sure it is racist.

1780
01:45:39,160 --> 01:45:43,160
Speaker 3: Well sure it is technically really sexist as well. But

1781
01:45:43,280 --> 01:45:47,439
Speaker 3: they're basically gay, right, and like that is the thing

1782
01:45:47,520 --> 01:45:51,080
Speaker 3: that is what you see and and I agree, I

1783
01:45:51,120 --> 01:45:52,920
Speaker 3: agree that, yeah, they're friends.

1784
01:45:53,160 --> 01:45:57,799
Speaker 6: They are like they there is a very bisexual energy

1785
01:45:58,560 --> 01:46:02,320
Speaker 6: I guess to shout out that element that definitely seems

1786
01:46:02,320 --> 01:46:03,320
Speaker 6: to stand out to people is.

1787
01:46:03,360 --> 01:46:07,000
Speaker 3: Like they I don't know, maybe they have this weird

1788
01:46:07,040 --> 01:46:11,280
Speaker 3: colonial polycule by the end of the movie where maybe

1789
01:46:11,320 --> 01:46:15,760
Speaker 3: the only canonical couple is a hetero couple. But the

1790
01:46:15,800 --> 01:46:19,360
Speaker 3: way I mean, but I do, I get it. Tulio

1791
01:46:19,439 --> 01:46:23,679
Speaker 3: and Miguel are boyfriend coded. They're taking naked swims together.

1792
01:46:24,760 --> 01:46:29,560
Speaker 3: They are weeping and saying, you made my life an adventure,

1793
01:46:29,600 --> 01:46:32,760
Speaker 3: you made my life rich. They are very touchy, I think,

1794
01:46:32,800 --> 01:46:35,920
Speaker 3: more than you would see a lot of you know,

1795
01:46:35,960 --> 01:46:38,519
Speaker 3: a lot of cartoon characters in general. They're very touchy

1796
01:46:38,560 --> 01:46:41,559
Speaker 3: with each other. They're very like I totally understand and

1797
01:46:41,760 --> 01:46:45,679
Speaker 3: like I can't like it is a very horny movie.

1798
01:46:46,520 --> 01:46:49,400
Speaker 3: I understand the argument that these are by characters. Obviously

1799
01:46:49,400 --> 01:46:53,680
Speaker 3: they're not like canonical by characters, but spiritually I get it.

1800
01:46:54,360 --> 01:46:57,519
Speaker 3: But the but the takeaway being that like bisexuals can

1801
01:46:57,600 --> 01:47:02,880
Speaker 3: also colonize is just such a non starter. Like, yeah,

1802
01:47:03,080 --> 01:47:05,599
Speaker 3: but does that make it a good movie to show

1803
01:47:05,640 --> 01:47:07,840
Speaker 3: to children? I just don't think so.

1804
01:47:08,640 --> 01:47:13,600
Speaker 4: I don't know. Yeah, I mean again, I understand. I

1805
01:47:13,640 --> 01:47:17,080
Speaker 4: have my my movies that I like. I get sore

1806
01:47:17,200 --> 01:47:20,080
Speaker 4: when they like when someone like critiques them in a

1807
01:47:20,120 --> 01:47:24,000
Speaker 4: way that like hurts my nostalgia. But I've never understood

1808
01:47:24,000 --> 01:47:28,000
Speaker 4: the impulse to be just like overly protective about them

1809
01:47:28,000 --> 01:47:32,320
Speaker 4: in a way, like to morally justify them. Yeah, Like, yeah,

1810
01:47:32,439 --> 01:47:35,920
Speaker 4: we all liked problematic things when we were kids. That's

1811
01:47:36,479 --> 01:47:39,240
Speaker 4: a lot of kids. Media is doesn't always age well,

1812
01:47:39,400 --> 01:47:40,200
Speaker 4: and it's like might.

1813
01:47:40,120 --> 01:47:43,280
Speaker 3: Be all you had, Like whatever, Yeah, you.

1814
01:47:43,640 --> 01:47:46,160
Speaker 4: Form a relationship with it, and that's like perfectly fine.

1815
01:47:46,160 --> 01:47:49,439
Speaker 4: But I don't think it does ourselves any favors to

1816
01:47:49,640 --> 01:47:55,240
Speaker 4: just act like that makes them secretly great and moral.

1817
01:47:55,600 --> 01:47:59,439
Speaker 4: And I don't know, I like breaking apart things that

1818
01:47:59,479 --> 01:48:02,880
Speaker 4: I like, so I can't relate to the impulse necessarily.

1819
01:48:02,439 --> 01:48:03,840
Speaker 2: That's why we do this podcast.

1820
01:48:04,240 --> 01:48:07,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we love to we love to ruin others

1821
01:48:07,040 --> 01:48:10,240
Speaker 3: good times. But it is like, I mean, it does

1822
01:48:10,280 --> 01:48:13,960
Speaker 3: feel very Yeah, this movie feels like a standout of

1823
01:48:14,040 --> 01:48:19,080
Speaker 3: like it's unusually bizarre that and not even moral. But

1824
01:48:19,160 --> 01:48:21,200
Speaker 3: a lot of the reclaimings are like, this is actually

1825
01:48:21,240 --> 01:48:24,240
Speaker 3: a well structured which It's like, there's as far as

1826
01:48:24,280 --> 01:48:27,400
Speaker 3: I've considered, there's no argument there. It's poorly written.

1827
01:48:27,760 --> 01:48:32,120
Speaker 4: It is very badly written. Like everything in the plot

1828
01:48:32,240 --> 01:48:33,840
Speaker 4: happens out of like a coincidence.

1829
01:48:34,400 --> 01:48:36,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, overy, it's it's all And I guess because we

1830
01:48:36,800 --> 01:48:41,840
Speaker 3: have co writers of Shrek. They also recycled the convenient eavesdropping.

1831
01:48:43,880 --> 01:48:48,000
Speaker 3: It's also there a woman who exists out of contact,

1832
01:48:48,000 --> 01:48:50,840
Speaker 3: I mean, Fiona, maybe a more fully realized character, and

1833
01:48:50,960 --> 01:48:51,840
Speaker 3: isn't that a shame?

1834
01:48:52,479 --> 01:48:52,719
Speaker 2: Right?

1835
01:48:52,960 --> 01:48:56,840
Speaker 3: But yeah, these writers love to have two men and

1836
01:48:56,840 --> 01:48:58,960
Speaker 3: a lady. I mean a lot of writers love to

1837
01:48:58,960 --> 01:49:00,639
Speaker 3: have two men in a lady or.

1838
01:49:00,600 --> 01:49:02,280
Speaker 4: A man a dounken a lady.

1839
01:49:02,439 --> 01:49:05,000
Speaker 3: Right, I guess, or a man, a monkey and a

1840
01:49:05,080 --> 01:49:07,240
Speaker 3: lady in the case of Aladdin. I mean, this is

1841
01:49:07,680 --> 01:49:11,680
Speaker 3: Dales's oldest time. They've got they've got a playbook. It

1842
01:49:11,880 --> 01:49:15,479
Speaker 3: is generally successful, but I think like these are not

1843
01:49:15,560 --> 01:49:20,880
Speaker 3: the writers you hire to talk about colonial history. It's

1844
01:49:21,240 --> 01:49:23,479
Speaker 3: they're out of their depth and you can feel it.

1845
01:49:23,520 --> 01:49:25,200
Speaker 3: And also, I mean, I I don't know because this

1846
01:49:25,280 --> 01:49:27,960
Speaker 3: movie was said like The Emperor's New Groove again was

1847
01:49:28,000 --> 01:49:31,559
Speaker 3: said to be heavily rewritten, so it's really hard to

1848
01:49:31,640 --> 01:49:36,879
Speaker 3: trace things to even a single person or the credited writers.

1849
01:49:36,920 --> 01:49:38,720
Speaker 3: I mean kind of this is a movie where it's

1850
01:49:38,720 --> 01:49:40,000
Speaker 3: like God knows who wrote.

1851
01:49:39,720 --> 01:49:47,559
Speaker 4: This, but Jeffrey Katzenberg himself just fuck it.

1852
01:49:47,640 --> 01:49:50,320
Speaker 2: Jeffrey kats with his diet coke, he worked all night.

1853
01:49:50,479 --> 01:49:54,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, jail for him. I just got Jeffre Katzenberg a

1854
01:49:54,880 --> 01:49:56,519
Speaker 3: couple of years ago. I feel like this didn't make

1855
01:49:57,240 --> 01:49:59,960
Speaker 3: you know, this didn't break out of the local sphere.

1856
01:50:00,160 --> 01:50:03,479
Speaker 3: But like Jeffrey Katzenberg marched down to Los Angeles City

1857
01:50:03,479 --> 01:50:06,640
Speaker 3: Hall saying that he had the he knew how to

1858
01:50:06,880 --> 01:50:11,519
Speaker 3: solve the homelessness crisis, and I was like, shut up,

1859
01:50:11,600 --> 01:50:15,519
Speaker 3: walk into traffic, like shut up, you fucking loser. Yeah,

1860
01:50:15,640 --> 01:50:19,280
Speaker 3: part was one of your billion dollars. But he marched

1861
01:50:19,280 --> 01:50:21,439
Speaker 3: down to city Hall and he's like, folks, I've figured

1862
01:50:21,479 --> 01:50:24,040
Speaker 3: it out, and You're like, you're like burn in hell.

1863
01:50:24,240 --> 01:50:27,200
Speaker 4: No one should ever listen to Jeffrey Katzenberg about anything,

1864
01:50:27,280 --> 01:50:32,040
Speaker 4: let alone heavily like systemic social issues.

1865
01:50:32,160 --> 01:50:35,479
Speaker 3: Just like the the fucking Goal. I just I hate

1866
01:50:35,520 --> 01:50:37,720
Speaker 3: him anyways. Anything else to say about The Road to

1867
01:50:37,760 --> 01:50:39,320
Speaker 3: El Dorada two thousand.

1868
01:50:41,000 --> 01:50:44,799
Speaker 2: Chief tene book is I believe the only fat character

1869
01:50:45,080 --> 01:50:47,280
Speaker 2: in the movie, and he is depicted in a way

1870
01:50:47,640 --> 01:50:50,160
Speaker 2: speaking role at least at least that has right, And

1871
01:50:50,200 --> 01:50:52,799
Speaker 2: he has depicted in a way that many fat characters

1872
01:50:52,800 --> 01:50:55,639
Speaker 2: often are in media, which is that, you know, he's

1873
01:50:56,000 --> 01:50:59,920
Speaker 2: very jolly and friendly and kind of a dufist, and

1874
01:51:00,160 --> 01:51:04,320
Speaker 2: even though he seems to realize that these characters aren't God's,

1875
01:51:04,439 --> 01:51:08,800
Speaker 2: he doesn't care. He's too good natured to care about that.

1876
01:51:09,080 --> 01:51:13,639
Speaker 2: And I just felt like a very trophy depiction of that.

1877
01:51:14,200 --> 01:51:18,040
Speaker 4: It frustrated me when Miguel is like, oh, yeah, sorry,

1878
01:51:18,040 --> 01:51:20,599
Speaker 4: my mistake or something, and the Chief kind of like

1879
01:51:20,680 --> 01:51:23,400
Speaker 4: cheekily is like, oh, it's great toere is to be

1880
01:51:23,479 --> 01:51:27,559
Speaker 4: human or towere is human whatever, because in any other

1881
01:51:27,680 --> 01:51:30,360
Speaker 4: movie I would like that callback a lot. I think

1882
01:51:30,439 --> 01:51:32,920
Speaker 4: like that little moment between them is very cute, but

1883
01:51:32,960 --> 01:51:36,160
Speaker 4: also it's like dude, why are you going along with

1884
01:51:36,200 --> 01:51:38,400
Speaker 4: this ruse? How does it benefit you?

1885
01:51:38,800 --> 01:51:41,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, what is the point of this right, You're you're

1886
01:51:42,000 --> 01:51:47,519
Speaker 2: just basically endorsing him stealing your materials, your gold, and like.

1887
01:51:47,760 --> 01:51:51,000
Speaker 3: The and it's it's very telling that the two indigenous

1888
01:51:51,080 --> 01:51:54,200
Speaker 3: characters we are meant to have an emotional attachment to

1889
01:51:54,880 --> 01:52:00,599
Speaker 3: are the Chief and Shell, who both are pro their

1890
01:52:00,720 --> 01:52:06,160
Speaker 3: community being colonized by these random fucking liars like that thing.

1891
01:52:06,479 --> 01:52:09,880
Speaker 3: I did not remember that scene, and you're like, not that.

1892
01:52:09,960 --> 01:52:12,040
Speaker 3: It is much better to play that. You know, he

1893
01:52:12,160 --> 01:52:15,599
Speaker 3: is so ignorant that he could not see what was happening,

1894
01:52:15,720 --> 01:52:18,640
Speaker 3: but they're like they had there why bother saying that?

1895
01:52:18,840 --> 01:52:21,880
Speaker 3: And he knew and he thought it was actually really

1896
01:52:21,960 --> 01:52:25,880
Speaker 3: cool what they were doing. But he also instinctually knows

1897
01:52:25,960 --> 01:52:29,719
Speaker 3: that what Cortes is doing is bad, but he's taking

1898
01:52:29,760 --> 01:52:34,479
Speaker 3: political advice from the other colonizer, who is good. And

1899
01:52:34,520 --> 01:52:38,679
Speaker 3: this is all just like unspoken in like the game

1900
01:52:38,720 --> 01:52:41,720
Speaker 3: of five D chess being played in this Chiefs frame,

1901
01:52:41,840 --> 01:52:44,720
Speaker 3: like it does not scan at all. Why would he

1902
01:52:44,800 --> 01:52:48,639
Speaker 3: hate Cortes and love Miguel The goal is the same.

1903
01:52:48,720 --> 01:52:51,559
Speaker 3: I guess that with Cortes, it's like It's almost made

1904
01:52:51,560 --> 01:52:55,400
Speaker 3: to seem like, well, Julio and Miguel's goals are non violent,

1905
01:52:56,120 --> 01:52:59,920
Speaker 3: so it's fine, they're just sort of little rascals.

1906
01:53:00,280 --> 01:53:03,040
Speaker 4: Let me actually just trust the guys that have been

1907
01:53:03,120 --> 01:53:07,040
Speaker 4: lying to us for three days like I have.

1908
01:53:07,320 --> 01:53:11,240
Speaker 3: I just do not understand, even from like a plot standpoint,

1909
01:53:11,280 --> 01:53:13,639
Speaker 3: why you would indicate that that character was well aware

1910
01:53:13,680 --> 01:53:16,040
Speaker 3: of what was happening, Like, what does that add other

1911
01:53:16,120 --> 01:53:18,880
Speaker 3: than confusion? I mean, I mean it does add more

1912
01:53:18,920 --> 01:53:22,000
Speaker 3: pro colonial Like it's actually like wink wink, really awesome,

1913
01:53:22,160 --> 01:53:26,600
Speaker 3: and maybe indigenous populations were completely open.

1914
01:53:26,439 --> 01:53:30,559
Speaker 2: To this, right, It's an extension of the idea of

1915
01:53:30,880 --> 01:53:34,240
Speaker 2: Indigenous people don't understand what's going on in the world

1916
01:53:34,320 --> 01:53:37,760
Speaker 2: around them. They don't know any better. They're uncivilized and

1917
01:53:37,800 --> 01:53:42,240
Speaker 2: they're not as smart as Westerners, and therefore they need

1918
01:53:42,280 --> 01:53:46,320
Speaker 2: the guidance of Westerners to exist.

1919
01:53:46,520 --> 01:53:52,160
Speaker 4: Condescension that makes the whole movie so frustrating. Yeah, it's like, yeah,

1920
01:53:52,400 --> 01:53:55,640
Speaker 4: this little indigenous paradise that also is ruled by an

1921
01:53:56,120 --> 01:53:59,080
Speaker 4: evil priest who needs to be stopped.

1922
01:53:59,280 --> 01:54:02,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like by the white saviors.

1923
01:54:02,400 --> 01:54:05,800
Speaker 3: Right, right, which just goes on to again like demonize

1924
01:54:06,280 --> 01:54:10,679
Speaker 3: a native religion. While you know, we're not really hearing

1925
01:54:10,840 --> 01:54:16,240
Speaker 3: how obsessively religious Spanish colonizers were. That's not brought up.

1926
01:54:17,040 --> 01:54:19,720
Speaker 4: Oh, which is actually very interesting because I did have

1927
01:54:19,720 --> 01:54:22,080
Speaker 4: a point about that. In the opening scene when they

1928
01:54:22,120 --> 01:54:27,360
Speaker 4: introduced Cortez, he says for Spain for glory, for gold,

1929
01:54:28,200 --> 01:54:31,320
Speaker 4: and it is incredible because it is constantly said that

1930
01:54:31,400 --> 01:54:35,840
Speaker 4: the three tenets of Spanish colonization was God, glory, gold,

1931
01:54:36,640 --> 01:54:40,520
Speaker 4: and they specifically changed the God for Spain in order

1932
01:54:40,600 --> 01:54:45,280
Speaker 4: to remove the evangelization aspect of the colonization, which I

1933
01:54:46,080 --> 01:54:49,280
Speaker 4: was like, oh, whatever, they wanted that out, But as

1934
01:54:49,320 --> 01:54:51,200
Speaker 4: soon as you said that, I was like, oh my god.

1935
01:54:51,840 --> 01:54:56,440
Speaker 4: They are literally downplaying the religious cellotry of the colonizers

1936
01:54:56,840 --> 01:55:02,280
Speaker 4: while demonizing the religious figure in the indigenous culture. And

1937
01:55:02,320 --> 01:55:04,400
Speaker 4: that just makes it like evil.

1938
01:55:04,760 --> 01:55:07,880
Speaker 3: Yeah I did. I honestly, I didn't know that, but

1939
01:55:07,920 --> 01:55:09,840
Speaker 3: that makes it. I mean, there is like a flattening

1940
01:55:10,040 --> 01:55:13,920
Speaker 3: of what the colonizer's culture was motivated by. It's made to,

1941
01:55:14,040 --> 01:55:16,720
Speaker 3: which almost feels like a weird americanization of it of

1942
01:55:16,800 --> 01:55:20,840
Speaker 3: like it's strictly capital. It's strictly nationalism and capital that

1943
01:55:20,920 --> 01:55:22,360
Speaker 3: is driving this, which.

1944
01:55:22,640 --> 01:55:24,960
Speaker 2: And those things are good, right, and we can't have

1945
01:55:25,040 --> 01:55:29,720
Speaker 2: anything that demonizes Christianity. Yeah, it's it's such a mind fuck.

1946
01:55:30,040 --> 01:55:35,320
Speaker 4: It's well because, like I mean, Americans love like demonizing Catholics.

1947
01:55:35,480 --> 01:55:36,760
Speaker 4: They could have taken that angle.

1948
01:55:37,000 --> 01:55:40,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's true. It's true. It was a national pastime

1949
01:55:40,200 --> 01:55:40,840
Speaker 3: for a while.

1950
01:55:41,200 --> 01:55:50,080
Speaker 4: Cowardly Protestantism strikes again. Okay, yeah, now.

1951
01:55:50,080 --> 01:55:52,200
Speaker 3: Do we have anything else to say? No, I think

1952
01:55:53,200 --> 01:55:57,640
Speaker 3: we forgot. There's also yeah, a religious Yeah.

1953
01:55:57,720 --> 01:56:01,680
Speaker 2: The movie does not pass the Bechdel tests.

1954
01:56:01,760 --> 01:56:04,800
Speaker 3: Not even close. An attempt was not made.

1955
01:56:05,040 --> 01:56:08,000
Speaker 2: Again, it does not pass the Alley naughty test, and

1956
01:56:08,120 --> 01:56:11,200
Speaker 2: on the Bechtel cast nipple scale, where we rate the

1957
01:56:11,240 --> 01:56:14,400
Speaker 2: movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based

1958
01:56:14,400 --> 01:56:18,720
Speaker 2: on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens, I give

1959
01:56:18,760 --> 01:56:23,120
Speaker 2: the movie zero nipples. Yeah, not a nipple insight for

1960
01:56:23,400 --> 01:56:24,560
Speaker 2: the Road to El Dorado.

1961
01:56:25,000 --> 01:56:29,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, hard to argue that point. I will meet you

1962
01:56:29,280 --> 01:56:33,000
Speaker 3: at a solid zero, Jose.

1963
01:56:34,040 --> 01:56:39,000
Speaker 4: I mean I have to concur no, nothing in this

1964
01:56:39,080 --> 01:56:40,400
Speaker 4: movie is nipple worthy.

1965
01:56:41,000 --> 01:56:42,280
Speaker 3: I haven't a nipple to give.

1966
01:56:42,760 --> 01:56:42,880
Speaker 4: No.

1967
01:56:43,800 --> 01:56:45,960
Speaker 2: Well, Hose, thank you so much for joining us again.

1968
01:56:46,640 --> 01:56:51,280
Speaker 4: Oh as fun as last time. I love this. Thank

1969
01:56:51,320 --> 01:56:53,520
Speaker 4: you so much for thinking of me and having me.

1970
01:56:53,800 --> 01:56:57,480
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, thank you for joining us. Come back

1971
01:56:57,640 --> 01:56:59,640
Speaker 3: for a movie that isn't about a city of golf.

1972
01:56:59,720 --> 01:57:01,000
Speaker 3: Next time, you know, whatever you.

1973
01:57:01,000 --> 01:57:03,200
Speaker 4: Want, we're running out of them.

1974
01:57:03,320 --> 01:57:08,200
Speaker 2: It's true because we already did National Treasure Book of Secrets,

1975
01:57:08,880 --> 01:57:10,800
Speaker 2: Jamie and I and the two of us and.

1976
01:57:11,160 --> 01:57:14,520
Speaker 4: Oh, I need to listen to you. Just you just

1977
01:57:14,880 --> 01:57:17,600
Speaker 4: released My best Friend's Wedding and I love that movie.

1978
01:57:18,400 --> 01:57:20,720
Speaker 2: Well, sorry, we don't love that.

1979
01:57:20,960 --> 01:57:25,560
Speaker 4: No, that's okay again. I love it. My mom loves it,

1980
01:57:25,640 --> 01:57:29,400
Speaker 4: and I watched it with my mom a lot. But

1981
01:57:29,800 --> 01:57:32,680
Speaker 4: I love conversations about it, like I feel like it's

1982
01:57:32,720 --> 01:57:34,640
Speaker 4: one of those movies where even people who don't like it,

1983
01:57:35,680 --> 01:57:37,200
Speaker 4: even if I do, really like it, and I have

1984
01:57:37,240 --> 01:57:39,240
Speaker 4: a lot of positive things to say about it, like

1985
01:57:39,960 --> 01:57:43,560
Speaker 4: from form. I love hearing people's takes about it, like

1986
01:57:43,920 --> 01:57:46,560
Speaker 4: negative takes, because I feel like it is a movie

1987
01:57:46,600 --> 01:57:48,360
Speaker 4: that was kind of designed for that kind of conversation.

1988
01:57:49,000 --> 01:57:51,560
Speaker 3: True, yeah, it is a litmus test. It was at

1989
01:57:51,640 --> 01:57:54,400
Speaker 3: least that was an attempt. I can't say that for

1990
01:57:54,440 --> 01:57:57,120
Speaker 3: the Road to Al Doorado. My best Friend's Friending was

1991
01:57:57,160 --> 01:57:57,600
Speaker 3: an attempt.

1992
01:57:57,680 --> 01:57:59,480
Speaker 4: I'm excited to listen to the episode.

1993
01:58:00,520 --> 01:58:03,080
Speaker 3: Well, truly come back anytime. We're so happy to have you.

1994
01:58:03,160 --> 01:58:08,080
Speaker 3: It's always like fun, chaotic adventure.

1995
01:58:08,240 --> 01:58:11,880
Speaker 4: Thank you so much. Yeah, the real just like with them,

1996
01:58:11,960 --> 01:58:14,400
Speaker 4: the real adventure was the friends we made along the way,

1997
01:58:14,560 --> 01:58:16,760
Speaker 4: my gosh, and we didn't have to we didn't have

1998
01:58:16,800 --> 01:58:18,000
Speaker 4: to colonize anyone for it.

1999
01:58:18,400 --> 01:58:23,920
Speaker 3: No, and that's commonly misunderstood in popular narratives. You can

2000
01:58:24,200 --> 01:58:26,480
Speaker 3: just have a You can't just be normal.

2001
01:58:26,360 --> 01:58:29,880
Speaker 2: And not scarce and have a friendship and not colonized.

2002
01:58:30,000 --> 01:58:30,920
Speaker 4: Not colonized.

2003
01:58:32,120 --> 01:58:33,040
Speaker 3: Shocking but true.

2004
01:58:34,400 --> 01:58:38,000
Speaker 2: Jose where can people follow you on social media? Check

2005
01:58:38,040 --> 01:58:40,960
Speaker 2: out your stuff? Tell us everything?

2006
01:58:41,440 --> 01:58:45,600
Speaker 4: So I'm on Twitter at jose m Luna and I

2007
01:58:45,640 --> 01:58:50,960
Speaker 4: am on YouTube so Maria Luna. It's my full legal

2008
01:58:51,080 --> 01:58:54,480
Speaker 4: name because I couldn't come up with uh a name

2009
01:58:54,520 --> 01:58:56,640
Speaker 4: for a channel. So it's just it's hard, you know,

2010
01:58:57,360 --> 01:59:00,840
Speaker 4: it is hard. And I have a real exciting video

2011
01:59:00,920 --> 01:59:03,360
Speaker 4: coming up, so I hope people will check that out.

2012
01:59:03,520 --> 01:59:04,400
Speaker 3: I'm excited.

2013
01:59:04,840 --> 01:59:06,320
Speaker 4: It's gonna be fun. It does not have to do

2014
01:59:06,400 --> 01:59:08,920
Speaker 4: with gold cities or colonialism.

2015
01:59:09,160 --> 01:59:09,480
Speaker 3: Love that.

2016
01:59:09,920 --> 01:59:14,640
Speaker 4: So yeah, but it cool, and thank you so much

2017
01:59:14,640 --> 01:59:16,879
Speaker 4: for having me. Really, it's a pleasure.

2018
01:59:17,040 --> 01:59:19,760
Speaker 3: Oh please, I mean yeah, listeners, if you are not

2019
01:59:19,840 --> 01:59:22,280
Speaker 3: subscribed to hosei channel, you are missing out it like

2020
01:59:22,320 --> 01:59:24,440
Speaker 3: it is truly just like some of the most thoughtful

2021
01:59:24,480 --> 01:59:26,760
Speaker 3: work on YouTube, which is you know, found few and

2022
01:59:26,800 --> 01:59:29,840
Speaker 3: far between. So congrats with that. And as for us,

2023
01:59:29,840 --> 01:59:32,920
Speaker 3: you can find us in all the usual places. You

2024
01:59:32,960 --> 01:59:36,240
Speaker 3: can follows as mentioned our Patreon aka Matreon, we're for

2025
01:59:36,320 --> 01:59:38,960
Speaker 3: five dollars a month. You can get two bonus episodes

2026
01:59:39,000 --> 01:59:41,440
Speaker 3: a month hosted by Caitlin and myself and occasionally a

2027
01:59:41,480 --> 01:59:45,160
Speaker 3: guest based off of a very specific theme we force

2028
01:59:45,240 --> 01:59:48,320
Speaker 3: upon our audience. We can be found on Instagram and

2029
01:59:48,440 --> 01:59:51,280
Speaker 3: occasionally Twitter when we feel like it at Bechdel Cast.

2030
01:59:51,600 --> 01:59:57,040
Speaker 2: Indeed, you can grab some merch at teapublic dot com

2031
01:59:57,080 --> 02:00:00,360
Speaker 2: slash the Bechdel Cast. Oh you want want to find

2032
02:00:00,400 --> 02:00:02,120
Speaker 2: some treasure, you want to go on a treasure hunt?

2033
02:00:02,160 --> 02:00:04,960
Speaker 2: We'll go to tea Public and buy our merch.

2034
02:00:05,400 --> 02:00:11,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and with that, let's end this episode as abruptly

2035
02:00:11,040 --> 02:00:12,240
Speaker 3: as the movie and be like.

2036
02:00:12,200 --> 02:00:21,120
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, bye, bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a

2037
02:00:21,120 --> 02:00:25,240
Speaker 2: production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Derante and Jamie loftis

2038
02:00:25,360 --> 02:00:29,200
Speaker 2: produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mola Board. Our theme

2039
02:00:29,240 --> 02:00:33,440
Speaker 2: song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Voskresenski.

2040
02:00:33,960 --> 02:00:37,280
Speaker 2: Our logo in Merch is designed by Jamie Loftis and

2041
02:00:37,360 --> 02:00:41,200
Speaker 2: a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about

2042
02:00:41,240 --> 02:00:44,680
Speaker 2: the podcast, please visit link tree Slash Bechdel Cast