WEBVTT - John Fogerty 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:12.520 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:16.960 My guest today is the one and only John Cob. John. 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:19.040 Good to have you on the program, but it's great 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:21.360 to be here, Thanks Bob. So you've been on the 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:25.480 road since last summer. Have you had any problems with 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:30.560 COVID and touring? Of course, a lot of it being 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:35.680 you're taking all the precautions, wearing a mask everywhere. Once 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:37.880 in a while, a member of your crew or a 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:40.400 member in the place where you're playing, or you know, 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:45.080 COVID is around and that person has to then disappear 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:49.840 and go isolate for ten days, two weeks, or whatever 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:55.800 the rule we're under at the time. UM. But yeah, 0:00:56.120 --> 0:01:01.680 I mean it's it's always present, just behind the screen, 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:06.280 behind the curtain, I guess. And it still was, you know, 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:10.160 hasn't gone away yet. Have you gotten COVID or anybody 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:14.280 in the band? I believe I've gotten COVID twice. The 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:18.200 first time was right at the beginning of when we 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:23.880 were just beginning to hear that this new thing was coming. 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:29.160 He was in the January early February, UM, and I 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:32.160 got mainly at night I would be copying, trying to 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:35.320 sleep and you know, a lot of symptoms like that. 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:38.520 I felt kind of strange, but I didn't really know that. 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.440 I went to my doctor and just tried to get antibiotics. 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:46.240 In fact, I went through his first run of him 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:49.920 and the second run of them, uh, and still wasn't 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:54.080 any better. And in the midst of the second run, 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:57.120 he said, why would you continue the same medicine if 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:01.360 it wasn't working. But I'm not a doctor. I don't 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:03.240 think like that. I just said, well, I'll take this 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:07.240 some more. Um. But looking back, I'm pretty sure that 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:10.839 was COVID. Then went through the whole you know, that 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:15.519 horrible year when there was no protection, no vaccine. Um, 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:19.600 I ran down. You know, I was first on my 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:24.239 block to run down when the vaccine became available, or 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:27.440 at least uh, I was right there at the beginning. 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:31.240 So then I ended up getting the first and second shot, 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:35.239 and then after my booster shot, which is the third shot. 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:41.079 About three weeks after that, three to a month, UM, 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:46.200 that old symptom of the cough came back at night, 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:49.600 and I think my wife was away on a trip 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:51.480 or something, and I was telling her I was having 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:54.119 a heck of a time. She said, you gotta test yourself. 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:59.560 Sure enough, I was positive even after all those vaccines. 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.919 But of course, as we all know, with the vaccine, 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:07.440 the consequences were not dire. It was I had a 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:10.040 little bit of that cough, but it was that same cough, 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:14.520 but nothing else was wrong. I didn't really even feel tired. 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:16.440 I was still going running, you know, in all the 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:21.680 normal things. I tested again, and maybe three days or so, 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:26.840 you know, immediately started staying away from people. But um, 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.080 I've still had it. And after ten days I tested 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:33.320 it again and still had it. It took about two 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:36.720 weeks for it to you know, where I finally wasn't positive. 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.080 Have you had to cancel any dates because of COVID. 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:43.000 Right at the beginning, we were literally going. We played 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.680 a show in at a casino in Laughlin, Nevada, and 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:49.720 which I really by then I didn't want to do this. 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:55.320 And then uh, and this I believe was late February 0:03:55.440 --> 0:04:00.320 early March of and there was another show the next night. Nice. 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:01.880 I just really didn't want to go through with it, 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:05.560 but we were sort of obligated. But finding the governor 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:09.440 of Nevada got wise to the thing and just shut 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:12.480 people down. And so like five minutes before I would 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:16.840 have gone on stage, they canceled the show. We ended up, 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:20.280 of course, it was postponed, not canceled. A year and 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:24.080 a half later we played that show, but yeah, we 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.800 we lost some of those. So you mentioned your wife 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:29.719 in the press. You've always said positive things about your wife. 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:31.960 How long you've been married to your wife now? Well, 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:37.400 officially thirty one years. Our anniversary was about a month ago, congratulations, 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:40.760 thank you very much. And how many years before the 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:45.640 official probably four years before that, three something like that. 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:49.040 So how did your meter? We met in UM six 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:55.520 in Indianapolis. I was on tour and uh after the show, 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:57.479 a bunch of the fellas in the band said, Hey, 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.679 there's this club right around the corner of our hotel. 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:04.880 We're all going down there, and uh so I showed 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:08.800 up probably twenty minutes later and kind of walked around 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:12.279 the whole place, and you know, I decided I was 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:14.800 going to leave, and just as I had kind of 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:18.640 made up my mind to leave, the sort of the 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:24.240 people parted. Uh you know, these shadowy figures in the dark, 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:29.000 and suddenly I'm staring at this beautiful girl in a 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:34.039 red dress, and I literally said to myself that's the 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:39.520 most beautiful girl I've ever seen. And my world stopped 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:44.359 in its tracks right there. Um, that's how we met. Okay, 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:47.880 continue the story. You see her in the waves part 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.080 like in a movie. Do you approach er? What do 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:55.240 you say? Literally, she came walking towards me and because 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:57.359 she was Yeah, I found all this out later she 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:00.400 was with a group of people, and most she was 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:04.720 with her sister and helping her sister move across Indiana 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.880 to a new location. But they had just stopped in 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:11.240 at this club and they were only going to be 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:13.920 there an hour, said they. You know, the the whole 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.360 idea I think for my wife was if I'm gonna 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:18.440 go down to where you are and bring you back 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:21.320 up to where I am, and it's gonna be a 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.480 six hour slept, maybe we can have a little bit 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:27.520 of fun in between. And that was sort of their 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:31.880 motive at the time. Um. And then you know, they 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:34.440 had just met other people and she was talking to 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:37.880 them and one of them noticed who I was, so 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:40.400 sort of on a dare, my wife said I'm going 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:44.200 to go up and talk to him, and she comes up, 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:46.920 you know, kind of like that old scene in the 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:51.320 commercial where the couple is in slow motion walking, you know. 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:54.800 I see her walking really slowly towards me, and she 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:58.200 sticks out her hand and says, can I shake your hand? 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:04.200 Mr foger They so all the thoughts in my head 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:08.800 that were, let's say, not all above board were suddenly 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:12.480 just throwing out the window with that Mr Fogerty. I 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:16.400 kind of, oh my goodness. Um. But we talked a 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.800 while and ended up talking the whole night. They until 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:22.440 they closed the place. You know, just sat at a 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:25.440 table sort of. This place had a dance floor, by 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.440 the way, I literally got up and danced with this 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:32.400 girl for one dance. Do you normally dance or was 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:35.600 this an exception? I don't dance. I do not dance, 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:38.679 but I felt like dancing. We always joked. The song 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:42.720 was Sledgehammer. You know. We went back and sat out 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:45.680 and talked some more. I just she was so well, 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:48.680 I was just taken with her, smitten. Uh, and it's 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:52.400 a wonderful feeling. You know. It went totally away from 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:56.680 that other characterization that I was sort of just being 0:07:56.680 --> 0:08:01.200 a typical musician on the road. Uh. All of that 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:05.440 kind of changed into sort of a boy scout talking 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:10.640 to somebody who was charming and cute and funny, and 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:15.960 you know, I just became this other I was in 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:18.960 this other mood and she was certainly somebody I really 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.440 wanted to spend more time with. But needles to say, 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:24.960 she's an Indianapolis and you're on the road, So how 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:29.360 do you maintain the relationship. Well, a few days later, 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:33.240 I mean it might have been a couple of weeks. Really, Um, 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:35.679 I got word that she was going to be at 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:37.959 a show that was It was really not that far 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:41.080 away as the crow Flags. I think it was in Maryville, 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:46.000 and the place it was it was a concert venue, 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:52.160 and also the hotel where I was staying. Um and uh, 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:56.760 our head road guy guy named Slice, got the message. 0:08:56.760 --> 0:09:00.120 She came walking up to him in the afternoon and said, know, 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:02.000 she knew I was playing there, and she said, can 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:04.400 I if I could you a message? Can you give 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:08.600 it to John? And he said sure, And so she 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:10.720 either gave him a little note or a you know, 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:14.320 a verbal message, and he came and told me, and 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:17.760 I was delighted. I said, well, yeah, see, you're telling 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:22.440 But it was really easy because the hotel and the 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:25.120 bar and all that stuff was right in that same building, 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:27.480 and you know, you didn't have to drive down a 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.640 dark road somewhere. I said, I'll meet her after the show. 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:32.480 I would be great, because by then I was probably 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:38.520 in sound check. Um. And by then, by the way, uh, 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:40.480 you know, I came and met her in the bar. 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:46.400 But I was a teetotaler. I had actually had some 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:51.640 well publicized problems with alcohol, and now I was not 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:55.439 drinking at all. And she was shocked at the difference 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:59.240 in my appearance and demeanor, you know, the guys she 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:03.240 saw before the first time, she said it was it 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:08.160 was like walking up to Willie Nelson, you know, which 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:10.520 I think I take as a compliment, but I think 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:14.560 she met I looked a little haggard to kind a phrase, 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:17.240 and this time, you know, I was all cleaned up. 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:20.600 I looked probably healthier, gained a few pounds, you know, 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:25.520 my hair was called um. And I was not drinking. 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:29.280 Her and her girlfriend were, but I was not. And 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:31.760 I just sat there and talked until you know, they 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:35.600 retired and had to go home. Okay, then what well, 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:38.520 I really wanted to get to see her again, so 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:40.800 I said, gosh, you gotta give me your phone number. 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:44.520 And so, sitting right at the table. It's kind of 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:48.560 a booth actually in this uh little uh I would 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:50.960 call it a bar and a holiday inn. But you know, 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.440 so you get the picture and there's a little uh 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:57.720 matchbooks there with the name of the place on the 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:00.920 match So she grabbed the match book, gets a pen 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:04.160 and writes down what I think is her phone number. 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:11.600 Her name is uh to her her name is anyway, 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:15.120 her name is Julie Lebzinski. And I don't know if 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:20.040 she wrote down Lebezynski or her uh earlier name, which 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:25.680 was Kramer. But anyway, um, I, you know, dutifully okay, 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:27.520 And I took that and put in my shirt pocket 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:30.200 and I was all smiles. And they had to leave 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:33.960 and you know, drive back to South Bend where she's from. 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:39.000 And uh, next day, I'm sitting on the bus, said, wow, 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:40.640 I want to I want to look at her number. 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:43.160 And I pull out the matchbook and it's kind of 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.120 like that scene with Steve Allen in the Jerk where 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:50.200 he's sitting in the bathtub. And I opened the matchbooks 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:56.520 to see Julie's information and it says love love, lovel love. 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:01.080 It's all scribbled that it it I can't read it. 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.000 And now I'm heartbroken. Well, by God, I'm gonna call 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:08.680 every Julie in the South Bend phone book until I 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:12.960 find there. I didn't quite have to do that. A 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:16.040 few weeks later she came and found me. A very 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:19.000 few weeks, it might have been even two. I was 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:22.840 playing out in California at Universal. So she came out 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:25.760 and found you, and then you were off to the 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:29.040 races or to take how long until you were actually 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:32.400 together living in the same place. Well, if you really 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:36.120 want me to finish the story, I will. Uh you know, 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:39.800 this is my favorite thing to talk about in the world. Okay, 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:42.880 keep going. Okay, So I'm playing at Universal, I think 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:46.680 two nights and so, which is a venue in southern 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:50.880 California in l A and So I'm staying in the hotel. 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:55.640 There's there's two of them there and and ones a Sherton, 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.080 and the other is something else and I can't remember 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:01.800 it might have been called Universal It anyway, she gets 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:05.959 out there to Southern California. She's staying with her aunt 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:09.440 and uncle, I believe, and she sees in the paper 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:14.720 I'm playing at Universal now I have given the hotel 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:20.120 strict um because I'm registered under my own name, because 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:24.360 how can I say it's a a compt room because 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:27.719 it goes with playing at the venue, right, So it's 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:30.600 under my name. But I've given them strict orders do 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:34.000 not put any calls through to my room or they're 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:36.720 asking for John Pokery because I'll be getting calls at 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:41.679 three am. You know, I need my rest. Um. Well, 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:45.480 you know, on the other side of reality. There, she 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:49.120 looks in the paper, sees I'm playing at the Universal, 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.560 says wow, I'm just gonna call him up. And so 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:54.800 she you know, looks in the phone book or somehow 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:59.000 figures he's at that hotel there. So she calls up 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:02.280 the hotel says yes, can I please talk to John 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:06.280 Pogotty and they put her right through. Well, if you 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:10.400 know my girl, Julie, I've been with her for thirty 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:15.000 five years or so, this is absolutely on Q. She 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:19.120 is the man manifesto of the universe and she can 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:25.280 make anything happen and and obviously always does. So there 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:28.960 she is on my phone. I pick up the phone 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:33.560 and she has HI, John, It's Julie. Now I was, 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:42.360 at that same moment in time, a very mournful, sorrowful person. Um, 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:48.480 I had my first marriage was breaking up. I was 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:52.600 feeling like the tour was coming to an end. My 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:56.520 career seem, I don't know, stalled, you know, for all 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:59.640 those reasons that a person can get themselves into a 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:03.120 sor of a place, I just I literally felt like 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:06.360 I was standing on the dock with one end of 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:09.960 a rope tight around my ankle and the other end 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:13.320 around a big rock, and I was just about to 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:16.720 throw the rock in the water. Anyway, I pick up 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:20.200 the bones. She says, Hi, John, this is Julie. And 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:23.800 the next thing that happened was I started laughing. I'm 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:28.600 laughing so so fully and completely that I'm laying on 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:31.600 the floor in my room. She says, what's the matter 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:34.680 with you? And I tell her the story about the 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:37.560 dock and the rock and the rope. I said, Honey, 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:39.880 I I don't know how life can go from one 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:44.720 swing from one end to another in fifteen seconds, but 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:47.720 it just did, you know? I said, hello, how are you? 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:51.120 I've been looking for you? Uh, And turned out she 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:55.520 was staying down in Hollywood at a hotel, and uh, 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:58.240 you know, we talked, and I think the next day 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:00.840 I finally got to see her. So you saw her 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:05.000 how long until she moved from Indianapolis to where you were? 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:09.760 We stayed about a year apart. I know that. Uh, 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:12.840 let's see what we were together during that time. That 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:17.080 week or so, I was in at the Universal. Uh. 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:21.320 And then she had to go back to her home. UM. 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:23.800 But around New Year's I wanted to go. I was 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:27.600 just compelled to come see her. And then I had 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:31.440 to go back to California. I mean, you know, I 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:34.840 don't know why we do those things, but something said, well, yeah, 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:37.480 well that's where you're staying, and so you're supposed to 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:40.120 go back there. So I went back, and you know, 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:42.720 it turned out that every couple of weeks I would 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:46.080 fly to South Bend. I remember one time we were 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:52.080 walking in the airport um parking lot, you know, to 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.040 where the planes were whatever the determinal, and she stomped 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:58.360 her foot. She just she stopped her foot down on 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:01.840 the asphalt and I looked at her. It was just 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:06.239 the cutest thing, you know, motion I've seen guys do it, 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:09.439 but I've really never seen a girl do that. And 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:11.520 I said, well, what's the matter, and she said, you're leaving? 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:19.359 And it was my idea really, or or inclination I 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:23.560 after a couple three times, flying back to South Bend 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:27.679 every second week or so to spend a few days 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:33.520 with her, I began to realize I was really in love. Um, 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:38.520 but I was terrified that she would be you know, 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:41.960 I tend to get tumatic too dramatic sometimes in life. 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:45.480 I was terrified that she would be that entity that 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:49.240 we some call it sometimes called the rebound. And so 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:52.800 a guy will break up with his wife and then 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:56.120 he'll meet, you know, somebody in a bar and they're 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:58.800 together for six months, but that's all, and then he 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:03.600 shakes him self thoroughly and drives out and then starts 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.439 planning his real life. And so susie Q kind of 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:10.080 goes away along with all those other things he just 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:13.879 went through. I didn't want that to be my reality, 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:15.920 and so I kind of kept it as it. Well, 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:18.960 I'll come and see you, but I think we should 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:22.320 stay apart. And I had this idea that it would 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:24.720 last a year. I you know, don't ask me why now. 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:29.560 It seems silly, um, but I guess there was some 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.280 wisdom in that, because once we got together, you know, 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:38.440 we've been together for thirty five years and without ever 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:42.800 a hiccup I mean, it's just it's been wonderful. There's 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:46.760 it's the deepest relationship I've ever had, and and and 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:50.280 there's just no question ever you know about who is 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:52.880 your soul mate and who you want to be with, 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:56.320 who you run to with, what you're excited about, or 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:59.640 with your problems. You know, Um, if you have such 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:02.480 a thing, Bob, then you know exactly what I'm talking about, right, 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:06.240 Just to get the landscape you were married before. How 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:08.200 old were you when you got married the first time? 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:10.520 I got married at twenty and there ought to be 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:14.800 a law. What was your motivation for getting married at twenty? Well, 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:17.440 you know, I thought I was in love at the time, 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.919 but I think you're at that age pretty young to 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:25.400 to actually really know what you're talking about. I mean, 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:29.320 you know, I was not insincere about my feelings, but 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:36.600 also there was a large dose of um my mom 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:38.840 was pushing me out of the house. You know, I 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.679 was still living at home with my mother, and it 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:43.760 was all I think at one point she you know, 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:48.600 I was almost the last kid at home. I think, yeah, 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:50.919 I think my brother Bob was still at home, But 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:55.600 how can I say it? I was acting like a 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:58.600 foot loose, twenty year old, you know, coming in with 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:02.280 Remember I'm still twenty, not even one, uh coming in 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:05.520 late night, making a bunch of noise, I'm sure. I know. 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:07.840 One time I went to give her a ride somewhere 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:10.000 in the car and there was a six pack of 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:12.919 beer sitting on the floor of the front seat that 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:15.159 I had forgotten about as I put her in the 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:18.960 Let's just kind of looked at that, you know, and 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:22.600 I kind of to myself and oops, you know, so 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:26.600 I was being kind of tossed out or else i'd 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.800 have to pay rent. I think that's how she put it, 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:32.320 And it was kind of her, you know, her way 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.320 of saying, gee, I'm kind of tired of this re 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:39.920 this situation. Let's change it, which I totally understand now, 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:42.920 of course. But uh So, there was some of that 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:48.520 I was kind of I don't know, there was there 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:53.439 was a bit of coercion or pressure on me that 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:56.520 I didn't understand, and that may have been some of 0:20:56.520 --> 0:20:59.600 the impetus toward getting married the first time. How did 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:02.200 you meet your first wife? I worked in a gas station, 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:05.800 and so I met her and her sister and that 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:09.520 sister's boyfriend. All at the same time at the place 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:11.840 I used to pump gas. They would come in rather late, 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:16.840 and probably that happened two or three times. Okay, So 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:19.440 you had kids with your first marriage, Yes, three kids. 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:21.399 Three kids? What are they up to today? I'm not 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:25.520 in a real close contact, but uh, you know these 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:29.520 are people. These are all adults in their fifties. Now. Okay, 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:33.560 So were you eager to have children with Julie or 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:36.119 did you say, hey, you know, I've already had children. 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:38.399 How do you decide to have children again? Well, Julie 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:42.760 already had a daughter, Lindsay, who was about two and 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:47.120 a half when we met. I know this because I 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:50.920 have changed a diaper or two, um. And I think 0:21:50.960 --> 0:21:53.600 when that happened, she might have looked over and said, oh, 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:58.280 that's a keeper, you know, because I was. I hadn't 0:21:58.320 --> 0:21:59.960 done it in a while, but I certainly knew I 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:05.919 was doing um. And then I think I think we 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:11.720 both put it this way. We would talk rather vaguely 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:16.840 about marriage at first. I think she'd been in a 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:21.200 marriage that had not worked out, And of course I've 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:28.200 been married for twenty years, um with less than spectacular results. Um. 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:32.119 And so I think we were both very skittish about 0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:35.280 that idea. It's bob, it's the weirdest thing. I mean, 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:37.840 you're in love with someone and yet another part of 0:22:37.880 --> 0:22:42.560 your brain is sort of clanging against the metal walls 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:45.960 with a ball peen hammer, going no, no, no, no 0:22:46.040 --> 0:22:51.240 marriage no. You know. So uh, I think things just 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:58.040 sort of evolved naturally. And UM, at some point we decided, 0:22:58.160 --> 0:23:03.840 all right, we're going, we're gonna. I know how it happened. 0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:08.639 I finally came to my senses. She she was back 0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:15.760 in um South Bend, and I was with her, and 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:20.439 I had an epiphany. I realized that she didn't she 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:23.200 would talk about me to her girlfriends, and by then 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:28.399 I was getting to know everybody, her mom, you know, sisters. Um. 0:23:28.440 --> 0:23:33.359 It had been a few years, and I don't know 0:23:33.400 --> 0:23:37.240 that anyone talked about marriage openly. You know. I think 0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:40.040 that's that's a subject. How do you talk about that 0:23:40.119 --> 0:23:44.399 in front of the two people That might get awkward? Right? Um, 0:23:44.440 --> 0:23:47.679 But I had an epiphany. I I was I was 0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:51.080 I'm a runner, so I was out running, and a 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:53.440 lot of times when you're running, my your head well 0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:56.720 just clear. It seems like it's a good place for 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:02.280 to think, you know, all the other instant pressures of 0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:04.959 you know, I'm hungry or it's raining or all that 0:24:05.000 --> 0:24:07.320 goes away, and you just sort of go into a 0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:11.000 how the zone, I guess you call it. And I 0:24:11.080 --> 0:24:14.240 had an epiphany about what why she's seeing all her 0:24:14.280 --> 0:24:16.920 friends and you know, her girlfriend. I could really see that, 0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:20.240 not so much that her family, but her girlfriends the 0:24:20.280 --> 0:24:24.760 one she wants to talk to intimately, and she doesn't 0:24:24.800 --> 0:24:27.640 have a ring to show them. I mean, I could 0:24:27.640 --> 0:24:31.600 really I could feel her position, what her heart must 0:24:31.640 --> 0:24:35.600 be like, it's wow, that's awful. She's telling them about 0:24:35.600 --> 0:24:37.840 this guy, you know, and we're committed to each other. 0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:41.120 But I just had my picture of I guess from 0:24:41.119 --> 0:24:43.840 the movies, see and they hold up their hand and 0:24:43.880 --> 0:24:48.879 there's a little beautiful, uh one carrot sweet little uh 0:24:48.920 --> 0:24:52.280 engagement ring, you know, and that's sort of that's sort 0:24:52.320 --> 0:24:55.879 of to a guy, that would be a contract, you know, 0:24:56.200 --> 0:24:59.679 like a book, you know, but to a girl, it's 0:24:59.720 --> 0:25:03.520 it's sort of established with that thing on her finger. 0:25:03.640 --> 0:25:08.560 It's a it's a very momentous part of telling the tale. 0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:11.560 And I just really could feel that, so literally I 0:25:11.680 --> 0:25:15.240 finished my run. My run went down to a local 0:25:15.280 --> 0:25:19.119 mall and bought a one carrot engagement you know, and 0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:21.560 paid way too much money. I think they saw me 0:25:21.680 --> 0:25:24.360 coming with you know, stars in my eyes. Oh man, 0:25:24.440 --> 0:25:28.960 look at this roube. Wow, he's in love. We'll get him. Um. 0:25:29.000 --> 0:25:33.399 Because even though you know, because I'm a rock and 0:25:33.480 --> 0:25:36.280 roller and and I have a pretty good career going 0:25:36.359 --> 0:25:41.960 and all that, some people, especially nowadays since Twitter and 0:25:42.000 --> 0:25:48.360 TikTok and uh certain famous family that's on the internet 0:25:48.400 --> 0:25:52.119 all the time, people think that an engagement ring is 0:25:52.440 --> 0:25:56.080 a career move, you know, a statement of your place 0:25:56.160 --> 0:26:01.440 in your stature in life. But I didn't. To me, Uh, 0:26:01.480 --> 0:26:03.920 I was relating to when I was, you know, fifteen 0:26:04.040 --> 0:26:05.959 and going to the movie. So I bought her this 0:26:06.320 --> 0:26:13.720 sweet little maall engagement ring and literally uh went to 0:26:14.080 --> 0:26:18.800 a rest a restaurant. It's famous in South Bend called 0:26:18.800 --> 0:26:23.280 Tippy Canoe because it uh used to be the student 0:26:23.320 --> 0:26:28.840 Baker mansion. But also uh maybe that political candidate from 0:26:28.880 --> 0:26:31.560 a hundred and fifty years ago may have stayed there, 0:26:31.760 --> 0:26:35.679 owned it or whatever. Uh. And I talked with the 0:26:35.720 --> 0:26:38.159 people the waiter and said, look, I'm gonna bring my 0:26:39.000 --> 0:26:43.240 beautiful wife or my beautiful girlfriend down here and have dinner. 0:26:43.440 --> 0:26:45.800 And I'm going to give her this ring, but I 0:26:45.840 --> 0:26:48.320 want you to put this in the glass of wine 0:26:48.359 --> 0:26:51.959 that we're gonna order. Okay, okay, you know, and so 0:26:52.119 --> 0:26:56.720 the the jinks was in, you know, the fix was in. Anyway, 0:26:57.119 --> 0:27:00.080 So later that day we come to dinner Robbily's and 0:27:00.200 --> 0:27:03.560 and I go around everything, okay, you know, yeah, because 0:27:03.560 --> 0:27:06.880 I knew there wouldn't be time to arrange that at night. 0:27:07.920 --> 0:27:10.320 And of course, well, honey, have some of your wine, 0:27:10.359 --> 0:27:12.600 you know. She takes a little sip of it, and 0:27:13.760 --> 0:27:16.840 uh yeah, and I can clearly see the ring in 0:27:16.880 --> 0:27:19.359 the bottom of that glass of wine from where I'm sitting. 0:27:19.680 --> 0:27:22.200 I see that, Well, how do you have another sip 0:27:22.200 --> 0:27:26.800 of that wine? And probably you know, after the second 0:27:26.920 --> 0:27:29.359 or third, you know, she finds these looks, Hey, what's 0:27:29.359 --> 0:27:33.720 going on here? You know? Anyway, then the story was out. 0:27:33.760 --> 0:27:35.800 You know. That was the best feeling in the whole 0:27:35.800 --> 0:27:46.000 wide world. I gotta tell you. Okay, So what waves 0:27:46.160 --> 0:27:50.400 has your wife changed your life or helped you make 0:27:50.480 --> 0:27:55.160 decisions in your life? Everything? Bob. I think that's probably 0:27:55.280 --> 0:27:57.359 the only reason you allowed me to go on with 0:27:57.440 --> 0:28:02.760 this rather biblical story. Um is you've probably had an 0:28:02.800 --> 0:28:09.520 inkling Um, Julie has been there to be my sounding board, UM, 0:28:09.560 --> 0:28:14.320 my counsel when I needed to figure something out or 0:28:14.760 --> 0:28:18.520 a lot of times. Is what happens more often than 0:28:18.640 --> 0:28:25.040 not now is she actually thinks about stuff, especially UM 0:28:25.320 --> 0:28:28.639 career kind of stuff more than I ever do, and 0:28:29.680 --> 0:28:33.280 figures it out or at least gets a plan of 0:28:33.560 --> 0:28:36.240 how to approach it and and maybe how to make 0:28:36.280 --> 0:28:39.000 it come to pass, which is why I call her 0:28:39.080 --> 0:28:42.680 the manifesto. Uh. You know, a lot of times, I 0:28:43.640 --> 0:28:46.160 how can I say if there's things I just have accepted, 0:28:46.200 --> 0:28:51.600 You might say, I'm I'm just very happy that I'm happy. 0:28:51.800 --> 0:28:54.000 I think you probably know that I've had a lot 0:28:54.040 --> 0:28:58.000 of really bad, uh show biz crap happened to me 0:28:58.120 --> 0:29:01.560 that I wouldn't wish on even my worst enemy, who 0:29:01.640 --> 0:29:07.960 happens to be one of the reasons. And um, you know, uh, 0:29:08.000 --> 0:29:10.400 and I've gotten through all that, and it was a 0:29:10.440 --> 0:29:14.640 really hard time that was not pleasant, and life was 0:29:14.680 --> 0:29:17.880 not pleasant and in the years, I mean, I'll just 0:29:17.920 --> 0:29:20.080 take a shortcut here and tell you that I'm a 0:29:20.120 --> 0:29:25.360 really happy person, very happy and looking forward to life 0:29:25.400 --> 0:29:28.040 and looking forward to every morning getting up and the 0:29:28.120 --> 0:29:33.120 possibilities that I have getting to work on, you know, music, 0:29:33.200 --> 0:29:37.000 and also getting the see the members of my family 0:29:37.080 --> 0:29:40.480 and just enjoy that I have this life. I mean, 0:29:42.640 --> 0:29:44.960 that's really where I'm living, and I'm smart enough to 0:29:45.000 --> 0:29:48.720 realize that's a good thing and it's probably the best 0:29:48.760 --> 0:29:53.520 you could ever hope for. Uh far more. I do 0:29:53.680 --> 0:29:56.680 know this to my soul that that is far more 0:29:56.840 --> 0:30:00.720 meaningful than any career thing, or any materi aerial thing, 0:30:01.360 --> 0:30:05.560 or any career thing you could try to go after 0:30:06.240 --> 0:30:10.000 and accomplished, because just having the right person with you 0:30:10.240 --> 0:30:14.520 is all of it is the whole meaning of life. Okay, 0:30:14.680 --> 0:30:19.600 you talk about that moment at the Universal Hotel we 0:30:19.640 --> 0:30:22.840 were at the end of the dock before you met Julie. 0:30:23.200 --> 0:30:26.520 Do you tend towards depression or you a glass half 0:30:26.560 --> 0:30:29.479 empty or glass half full kind of gone? I would 0:30:29.520 --> 0:30:32.920 say that. I mean, looking back over my life, I 0:30:32.960 --> 0:30:37.239 think I I have had to have been depressed at 0:30:37.280 --> 0:30:43.080 several different times. Um. You know, sometimes I've actually wondered 0:30:43.120 --> 0:30:46.440 if I might be bipolar or not. I mean, I've 0:30:46.480 --> 0:30:49.600 seen other people who are literally I think we just 0:30:49.680 --> 0:30:53.080 call that manic depressive, and you know, at one point 0:30:53.120 --> 0:30:56.000 they'd be bouncing off the walls they're so happy, and 0:30:56.040 --> 0:30:59.400 then at other points to be laying on the you know, 0:30:59.440 --> 0:31:04.200 I'm talking spiritually laying on the floor, they're so unhappy. 0:31:04.280 --> 0:31:08.720 And I don't think I'm like that. I'm always functioning, 0:31:08.800 --> 0:31:12.720 But I do know that during the very dark days 0:31:13.040 --> 0:31:17.600 of still being owned by Fantasy Records, which is where 0:31:17.760 --> 0:31:22.840 the label that Credence at first had success with UM, 0:31:22.840 --> 0:31:27.680 getting through that whole quagmire was very depressing to me. 0:31:27.720 --> 0:31:29.800 I mean, there were there were times I could not 0:31:29.960 --> 0:31:34.120 get that evil person out of my mind, and whenever, 0:31:34.480 --> 0:31:39.840 sometimes just seeing the word Fantasy could spoil my day. 0:31:39.880 --> 0:31:43.680 So I think you would call that depressed. And it 0:31:43.760 --> 0:31:46.240 was hard, and it was really hard for someone to 0:31:46.360 --> 0:31:50.000 tell me, come come to talk to me and just 0:31:50.080 --> 0:31:55.360 say something light and have me react. How can I 0:31:55.400 --> 0:31:58.560 say in an unbiased fashion, like the way we expect 0:31:58.880 --> 0:32:02.720 normal people to to have interplay with each other, you know, 0:32:02.760 --> 0:32:08.360 I would be so tilted towards a um bad mood 0:32:08.400 --> 0:32:11.320 and and can't you see this ugly thing that's happening 0:32:11.320 --> 0:32:15.440 to me, you know, that sort of mood um, which 0:32:15.560 --> 0:32:18.240 I wouldn't wish on anyone. I mean, that's a horrible place, 0:32:18.400 --> 0:32:21.400 you know. I I'm a lot lighter. But I do 0:32:21.560 --> 0:32:23.800 see that from time to time. I mean, I'm not 0:32:23.880 --> 0:32:28.680 a perfect saint by any means, don't get me wrong, um, 0:32:28.720 --> 0:32:32.440 but I'm not captured anymore. That stuff doesn't own me. 0:32:33.280 --> 0:32:37.680 And I realized now that it's really quirky too, because 0:32:37.760 --> 0:32:39.640 I do it in my life. I'll walk up to 0:32:39.720 --> 0:32:45.360 someone and start to talk and not here uh interplay 0:32:45.480 --> 0:32:47.840 you know, a response, and you know they're in a 0:32:47.880 --> 0:32:53.320 bad mood. I'll just let them have their space, you know, 0:32:54.040 --> 0:32:55.880 And it can happen, I mean to someone you know, 0:32:56.040 --> 0:32:58.400 or even if you go into a store and there's 0:32:58.440 --> 0:33:01.320 a salesman and you know and supposed to help you, 0:33:01.400 --> 0:33:05.600 but he's not helpful. And you, the older, you get 0:33:05.640 --> 0:33:09.920 that you know time and shorter bob Um, I'm pretty 0:33:09.960 --> 0:33:15.480 aware about time, and I'm much more uh, much more 0:33:15.600 --> 0:33:21.040 wanting to use my time in positive uh endeavors and 0:33:21.120 --> 0:33:25.560 not waste time stuck in things that are you know, 0:33:25.680 --> 0:33:27.920 a waste or going to drag you down or give 0:33:27.960 --> 0:33:31.440 you a bad mood. To what degree was duly influential 0:33:31.640 --> 0:33:35.800 in getting you to play the Creeden songs again? Oh, 0:33:36.040 --> 0:33:40.400 she was huge, hugely influential. I believe that it was 0:33:40.440 --> 0:33:44.479 because I was. The way I put it is as 0:33:44.520 --> 0:33:47.760 I fell more and more deeply in love with Julie. 0:33:48.440 --> 0:33:51.720 And by the way, I think, forty years ago, I 0:33:51.720 --> 0:33:56.400 couldn't even talk like this as a grown man. I 0:33:56.440 --> 0:34:00.960 couldn't talk about love as a real thing and not 0:34:01.080 --> 0:34:07.320 be embarrassed or awkward about it. It just, you know, 0:34:07.520 --> 0:34:13.600 it seemed like something you didn't talk about polite company. Um. 0:34:13.880 --> 0:34:17.319 You know, I was very strange and clunky trying to 0:34:17.400 --> 0:34:24.120 even say the word oh love. So later, as I 0:34:24.160 --> 0:34:27.799 had fallen so deeply in love with Julie, I think 0:34:27.800 --> 0:34:30.360 my motive is I talk about it all the time 0:34:31.040 --> 0:34:34.400 because I know what it is and I'm really happy 0:34:34.480 --> 0:34:38.360 about it, and I also sort of say it out loud. 0:34:39.520 --> 0:34:42.640 I guess I'm a happy that it happened for me. 0:34:43.239 --> 0:34:46.000 But also when I see other people that they know 0:34:46.080 --> 0:34:51.239 what I'm talking about and that it that it obviously resonates. Uh, 0:34:51.640 --> 0:34:55.080 you know, I just feel good for them because that's 0:34:55.120 --> 0:34:59.080 where life should that's where we should all be as 0:34:59.160 --> 0:35:02.960 human beings know. And it could be love with your sweetheart. 0:35:03.280 --> 0:35:05.720 It could be God's love, which is how some people 0:35:05.800 --> 0:35:09.719 have it. It could be love in the situation you 0:35:09.760 --> 0:35:13.120 know your family members and all that, but certainly it's 0:35:13.120 --> 0:35:18.360 a that feeling of love is probably to say it 0:35:18.400 --> 0:35:21.759 a little religious or spiritually would be that's what God 0:35:21.840 --> 0:35:26.640 had intended for all of us. Um anyhow, to be 0:35:26.880 --> 0:35:31.800 in that state is where I was, uh, even though 0:35:31.840 --> 0:35:37.239 I was not playing my songs again. But you may 0:35:37.280 --> 0:35:42.040 have heard about my trips to Mississippi. Um. There there 0:35:42.160 --> 0:35:46.279 was a time when I came to Julie. I was 0:35:46.480 --> 0:35:52.040 had been feeling this this urge, this urgency that I 0:35:52.040 --> 0:35:56.040 didn't even quite understand what. But it finally took shape 0:35:56.160 --> 0:36:00.960 as almost a feeling or a voice. You have to 0:36:01.000 --> 0:36:05.000 go to Mississippi. But here's how that. Then it finally 0:36:05.000 --> 0:36:08.600 got so strong I had to do something about it. 0:36:08.920 --> 0:36:11.480 And it was a morning time and I walked up 0:36:11.480 --> 0:36:15.359 to Julie, probably in the kitchen. I said, honey, um, 0:36:15.440 --> 0:36:18.759 I gotta tell you something. And she said, okay. I said, well, 0:36:19.280 --> 0:36:22.480 I have to go to Mississippi. She just stops for 0:36:22.520 --> 0:36:25.240 a minute and her eyes get big and she says, 0:36:25.800 --> 0:36:34.600 okay when and I said, now, uh, okay, okay, it's 0:36:34.600 --> 0:36:36.680 all right. I said, you know, honey, oh And then 0:36:36.719 --> 0:36:42.080 she says why And I said, I don't know which 0:36:42.200 --> 0:36:44.880 was literally the truth. I mean, the only thing I 0:36:44.920 --> 0:36:48.840 could think of was I was interested in the blues tree, 0:36:49.320 --> 0:36:51.759 kind of the family tree of the blues, because that's 0:36:52.400 --> 0:36:56.839 literally all I knew about Mississippi. I believe that I 0:36:56.920 --> 0:37:01.200 literally had not set foot in Mrs Hippy in my 0:37:01.440 --> 0:37:04.600 entire life. As much as I've been around music and 0:37:04.680 --> 0:37:08.440 had toured the South with credence, I know I've been 0:37:08.480 --> 0:37:11.960 in Arkansas and Louisiana, but I don't think I've ever 0:37:12.000 --> 0:37:17.279 been in Mississippi and trying to make it, you know, 0:37:17.400 --> 0:37:20.640 done and hop over this. Uh. I didn't really know 0:37:20.680 --> 0:37:24.040 why I was going there, but I certainly was interested 0:37:24.880 --> 0:37:29.200 in the blues, and I vague knew that a couple 0:37:29.200 --> 0:37:30.880 of the people I had grown up, I mean it 0:37:31.160 --> 0:37:33.800 started when I was seven eight years old that I 0:37:33.840 --> 0:37:39.440 had heard about. I vaguely knew some names from Mississippi. 0:37:40.040 --> 0:37:43.479 I love the blues, but I experienced the blues as 0:37:43.520 --> 0:37:48.279 a current thing, not in a library. I and I 0:37:48.320 --> 0:37:50.799 was old enough or born at the right time. I 0:37:50.880 --> 0:37:55.120 heard Howling Wolf on the radio and Muddy Waters on 0:37:55.200 --> 0:37:58.320 the radio. They were having hit records on the Rhythm 0:37:58.400 --> 0:38:02.359 and Blues station out of Oakland, whose letters then where 0:38:02.480 --> 0:38:08.360 kW br um and so I knew these musicians and 0:38:10.000 --> 0:38:12.719 had read a little bit about jazz and blues, you know, 0:38:12.760 --> 0:38:14.799 and it was sort of a vague thing to me, 0:38:15.960 --> 0:38:19.480 and so I just thought, I'm gonna go to Mississippi, 0:38:20.360 --> 0:38:23.880 um poke around, kind of learn more about the you know. 0:38:23.960 --> 0:38:26.720 I was not much of a plan, tell you the truth, 0:38:27.920 --> 0:38:30.480 But I was very lucky in a lot of ways. 0:38:30.560 --> 0:38:33.480 First of all, that Julie was so open to letting 0:38:33.520 --> 0:38:37.480 me go, because I know that when you know you're 0:38:37.560 --> 0:38:40.960 it's a partnership, but between you and your spouse, and 0:38:41.080 --> 0:38:43.000 there can be times when your spouse is just not 0:38:43.120 --> 0:38:47.680 happy about something, and one spouse or the other can 0:38:47.760 --> 0:38:50.960 make the person do something they don't want to do, 0:38:51.080 --> 0:38:54.840 just when they feel very strongly. I've you know, met 0:38:54.960 --> 0:38:57.560 many men and women to say, well, Joe was never 0:38:57.560 --> 0:39:00.800 gonna let me do that, or Free is never gonna 0:39:00.840 --> 0:39:03.920 let me do that. And it's a strange power, but 0:39:04.040 --> 0:39:07.319 we give our spouse that power because we love them. 0:39:08.120 --> 0:39:11.879 But yet here in this instance, which was so much 0:39:11.960 --> 0:39:16.160 on the flim flam, it seems she said yeah, okay, 0:39:16.200 --> 0:39:19.279 it's all right, and uh, you know, went down the 0:39:19.320 --> 0:39:23.080 first time and kind of poked around, and uh, I 0:39:23.160 --> 0:39:26.439 didn't have much of a plan. I had heard about 0:39:26.560 --> 0:39:28.840 Robert Johnson, but I'm not sure that I knew he 0:39:28.920 --> 0:39:32.160 was from Mississippi. Of course, of course grew up with 0:39:32.239 --> 0:39:36.640 Jimmy Reid, but had no idea that Jimmy Reid was Mississippi. 0:39:37.160 --> 0:39:40.080 And so there, you know, and as I uh ended 0:39:40.160 --> 0:39:44.160 up taking several trips two, three, four or five I'm 0:39:44.160 --> 0:39:49.360 not quite sure, um, but any time I would stay 0:39:49.400 --> 0:39:52.640 five days or so. The first in fact, the first 0:39:52.680 --> 0:39:56.720 time I went, I think I flew to New Orleans 0:39:56.800 --> 0:40:00.000 and went across that way, which is I totally missed 0:40:00.080 --> 0:40:03.040 the delta myself. I mean I didn't know. I had 0:40:03.080 --> 0:40:05.759 heard of delta, but I didn't know what. I didn't 0:40:05.800 --> 0:40:09.719 know anything. I didn't even know how Mississippi related to Memphis. 0:40:09.760 --> 0:40:12.440 You know, what geography there was, all these things. Of 0:40:12.480 --> 0:40:16.359 course I knew about all this, and Tupelo um the 0:40:16.400 --> 0:40:18.719 same thing. And so that was the way I went 0:40:18.760 --> 0:40:21.200 the first time. The second time I went to Memphis 0:40:21.360 --> 0:40:26.040 and drove down. Um, it's just sort of a it 0:40:26.120 --> 0:40:28.600 was important to me. I mean, this was this was 0:40:28.680 --> 0:40:32.480 really when I say it was important, I felt it important. 0:40:32.520 --> 0:40:37.200 But also in the long run in what was important 0:40:37.239 --> 0:40:40.239 to my life. It was important that way, and I 0:40:40.280 --> 0:40:45.719 believe it was probably the second time where um, I 0:40:45.800 --> 0:40:49.239 had read enough that I got some instruction in the 0:40:49.400 --> 0:40:52.840 in the kind of blues books I was reading that 0:40:52.960 --> 0:40:56.720 there was a person in I think more Head City, 0:40:57.719 --> 0:41:01.520 Uh it might have been more Head. Um it was 0:41:01.520 --> 0:41:05.400 a postmaster who knew where Robert Johnson was buried. And 0:41:05.400 --> 0:41:07.800 then this was a mystery. I now realized it because 0:41:07.840 --> 0:41:12.760 I liked Robert Johnson. By the way. Um. At first 0:41:12.840 --> 0:41:18.840 I was buying UM cassettes and putting them on. Excuse me, 0:41:18.880 --> 0:41:22.160 at first, I was buying LP records and putting them on, 0:41:22.840 --> 0:41:25.759 making my own cassettes and taking the cassette with me 0:41:26.840 --> 0:41:29.600 on my trip. Right that was I think I started 0:41:29.600 --> 0:41:34.200 doing that the second trip. But after that I thought, well, 0:41:34.239 --> 0:41:36.000 you know what, I'm going to get a c D. 0:41:36.520 --> 0:41:38.759 I think it was Big Bill Bruns. I wanted to hear. 0:41:39.360 --> 0:41:43.879 So I went to uh, uh, you know, a federated 0:41:44.000 --> 0:41:46.920 or best Buyer, one of those kind of big box places, 0:41:47.360 --> 0:41:50.919 and I bought a boom box and then I bought 0:41:50.960 --> 0:41:53.560 a CD of Big Bill Bruns. I had a couple 0:41:53.600 --> 0:41:56.239 of them, and I put it in on the front 0:41:56.239 --> 0:41:58.359 seat of my rented card. I started driving down the road. 0:41:58.480 --> 0:42:02.239 But the boom box is going, well we got this morning, 0:42:02.400 --> 0:42:05.520 Well got the plan. You know it's I'm going this 0:42:05.640 --> 0:42:08.879 is the stupidest thing I ever out. I can't play 0:42:09.040 --> 0:42:11.120 my CD, but I wanted the world to know that 0:42:11.200 --> 0:42:15.080 John Fogerty finally bought a CD was in the the 0:42:15.120 --> 0:42:18.239 new high tech world because of a blue song and 0:42:18.280 --> 0:42:22.040 a blues guy. Uh, and I'll always remember that. Of 0:42:22.080 --> 0:42:27.080 course CDs are now dinosaurs. Um where were they going 0:42:27.080 --> 0:42:30.879 with all that? Anyway, I ended up, uh going down 0:42:30.960 --> 0:42:34.960 the road finding this more Head place, which was, you know, 0:42:35.120 --> 0:42:38.480 sort of a speck on the map, opening the door 0:42:38.480 --> 0:42:41.439 to the finding the post office. You know, parked the car, 0:42:42.280 --> 0:42:44.960 opened the door, and the man is sitting there looking 0:42:45.000 --> 0:42:47.120 at me. He's at a table. As I opened the door, 0:42:47.320 --> 0:42:51.960 he's at a table directly like he's waiting for me, right, 0:42:52.080 --> 0:42:55.279 I mean it was. And I said, oh, you know, 0:42:55.520 --> 0:42:57.200 I thought there would be like one of those little 0:42:57.239 --> 0:42:59.680 cages with a you know, a guy be a little 0:42:59.680 --> 0:43:02.399 post answer with those hats and all that kind of thing, 0:43:02.600 --> 0:43:05.880 the little green hat. I think, Um, I said, well, 0:43:05.920 --> 0:43:09.480 this is a strange question, But I've heard that you 0:43:09.560 --> 0:43:13.400 know where Robert Johnson is buried. He says, oh, yeah, sure, 0:43:13.640 --> 0:43:15.719 And he tells me to drive up to this the 0:43:15.840 --> 0:43:18.720 road there and turn right, and there's a certain church 0:43:19.080 --> 0:43:21.120 and I can't quite remember the name, but I knew it. 0:43:21.160 --> 0:43:25.120 Then he said, go into that churchyard, to go into 0:43:25.120 --> 0:43:27.560 the back where there's a little cemetery. And there's a 0:43:27.600 --> 0:43:31.600 great big tree there, and I can't I've heard that 0:43:31.640 --> 0:43:34.560 it's called a pecan tree, but in my mind's eye 0:43:34.600 --> 0:43:37.440 now it was a great big tree um to me 0:43:37.800 --> 0:43:40.120 more like an oak tree. But anyhow, he says, and 0:43:40.200 --> 0:43:44.680 Robert's buried right under that tree. He said, there's no marker, 0:43:44.840 --> 0:43:48.280 so you just have to know he's buried there. Okay, 0:43:48.520 --> 0:43:51.759 So I go up and I did what he said, 0:43:52.239 --> 0:43:55.400 end up at the little graveyard. But it had rained 0:43:55.440 --> 0:43:57.920 like a son of a gun for the week before 0:43:58.000 --> 0:44:02.120 I got there. In fact, you would all that hurricane probably, 0:44:02.480 --> 0:44:05.440 so there was about a foot of water, uh in 0:44:05.560 --> 0:44:09.319 this cemetery, and certainly out by the tree, it was 0:44:09.320 --> 0:44:11.600 a swamp and there was a bunch of I mean 0:44:11.640 --> 0:44:15.600 it was surrounded with brush or bramble bushes or whatever, 0:44:16.600 --> 0:44:20.440 and so I see the graveyard and I see the stuff, 0:44:20.480 --> 0:44:26.000 and uh, I you know, started to walk away. You know, 0:44:26.160 --> 0:44:28.080 it's like a lake out there where that tree is, 0:44:28.120 --> 0:44:31.000 and I'm walking away, and then I go, wait a minute. 0:44:31.600 --> 0:44:34.120 I came all this way because I want to know 0:44:34.160 --> 0:44:37.480 where Robert Johnson's you know, it had become more and 0:44:37.520 --> 0:44:42.280 more important because I I had heard about Robert Johnson, 0:44:42.280 --> 0:44:46.240 by the way, because the the box set had been released, 0:44:46.239 --> 0:44:49.759 the CD box set. Okay, So I turned around. I 0:44:49.800 --> 0:44:51.719 looked at that big tree and said, my god, I'm 0:44:51.719 --> 0:44:53.920 gonna touch that tree. At least I don't know where 0:44:53.920 --> 0:44:56.560 the place on the ground is. So I wade out 0:44:56.600 --> 0:45:00.720 through the water. I'm an experienced spishermen, and I fished 0:45:00.719 --> 0:45:03.560 that way. I always get wet up to my knees, 0:45:03.760 --> 0:45:07.880 so I wasn't um. I didn't have any misgivings about 0:45:07.880 --> 0:45:11.520 getting wet, but still it was kind of swampy, you know, 0:45:11.680 --> 0:45:14.759 mosquito water whatever. And I made my way through all 0:45:14.800 --> 0:45:18.359 those bushes and touched that tree and felt like I 0:45:18.400 --> 0:45:22.799 had kind of component comp what's that word I'm looking for, 0:45:23.600 --> 0:45:30.400 calm and sit now consummated my trip. Yeah, by touching 0:45:30.400 --> 0:45:33.439 the tree, it felt like you know, there was closure there, 0:45:34.440 --> 0:45:39.680 um and this was my my the first time being 0:45:39.719 --> 0:45:44.839 there at Robert's gravesite. I didn't have a camera with me, right, 0:45:45.360 --> 0:45:49.600 But anyway, I walked back and kind of look around 0:45:49.680 --> 0:45:54.840 the other parts of the little churchyard, and it was 0:45:54.880 --> 0:45:57.600 really hot, even though there's water deep water like that 0:45:57.680 --> 0:46:00.160 on the ground. I get back up where its kind 0:46:00.200 --> 0:46:02.520 of dry, you know. I mean, so it's hundred ten 0:46:02.560 --> 0:46:08.560 degrees and probably ninety five percent humidity, really sweltering. And 0:46:08.600 --> 0:46:13.239 so now I'm kind of taken with the whole Robert Johnson, 0:46:13.320 --> 0:46:15.000 you know. I mean, I'm just sort of in one 0:46:15.120 --> 0:46:18.839 frame of mind about Robert as again, the fact that 0:46:18.880 --> 0:46:22.120 he's got a CD out. I'm thinking, Wow, you know, 0:46:22.440 --> 0:46:26.640 I wonder, I wonder who owns those songs. And then, 0:46:26.960 --> 0:46:30.600 you know, because it's been all these years and all that, 0:46:30.760 --> 0:46:35.399 it couldn't be whoever did it way back when it's like, yeah, 0:46:35.480 --> 0:46:38.360 they probably passed through. You know, this the normal stuff 0:46:38.640 --> 0:46:44.960 that unfortunately so many Blues Guy's legacy has traveled. And 0:46:44.960 --> 0:46:47.160 I said wow, I said, wow, you know, it's probab 0:46:47.560 --> 0:46:51.720 some stinking lawyers some wise guy in a tall building 0:46:52.200 --> 0:46:55.800 in the big cities probably had a big fat cigar, 0:46:56.400 --> 0:47:00.800 and it doesn't. He don't care at all about Robert Johnson. 0:47:01.000 --> 0:47:04.360 He just owns that property. You know. I'm saying it 0:47:04.680 --> 0:47:07.960 to myself in the most disgusting way because I'm really 0:47:08.320 --> 0:47:12.480 sickened by how that always happens, you know, And and 0:47:12.520 --> 0:47:15.680 I finally, I'm so disgusted, and I'm wet up to 0:47:15.760 --> 0:47:19.200 my knees, and go it. It doesn't matter. I'm I'm 0:47:19.680 --> 0:47:24.000 I'm sure I'm semi delirious because of the heat and all, 0:47:24.719 --> 0:47:27.880 and I'm you know, it just doesn't Robert. I'm speaking 0:47:27.880 --> 0:47:32.480 actually personally now to that fellow over there under that tree, Robert. 0:47:32.600 --> 0:47:36.640 It doesn't matter. The whole world knows those are your songs, Robert. 0:47:37.040 --> 0:47:40.640 Those are your songs, and everybody knows it. And of course, 0:47:40.680 --> 0:47:44.600 since I'm the only one around, there's a deafening silence 0:47:44.640 --> 0:47:49.840 after I say it. The whole world knows it. I stopped, 0:47:50.239 --> 0:47:53.000 and I realized what I have just said. I mean, 0:47:53.840 --> 0:47:58.920 I don't think in any other instance the deafening silence 0:47:58.960 --> 0:48:03.080 would have led me to this thought process. But because 0:48:03.120 --> 0:48:06.279 I said that about somebody that was so important, it 0:48:06.360 --> 0:48:08.880 was still ringing in my own ears. As I said 0:48:09.320 --> 0:48:13.360 everybody knows those are your songs. And I've heard that 0:48:13.480 --> 0:48:16.719 said to me a couple of times. Boynette said that 0:48:16.840 --> 0:48:21.120 to me, Chubby Checker said that to me, um, And 0:48:22.480 --> 0:48:25.920 I think it was that that that I said that, 0:48:26.200 --> 0:48:29.839 you know that hearing those voices all ringing in that 0:48:29.880 --> 0:48:32.800 deafening silence in my eyes, I'm sure got real big 0:48:33.080 --> 0:48:36.719 as I chewed on this thought, and I went, wow, 0:48:37.760 --> 0:48:42.160 oh my good, John, you gotta start singing your songs 0:48:42.239 --> 0:48:46.000 before you're sitting there in the ground like Robert. I mean, 0:48:46.040 --> 0:48:49.560 I literally had that thought. And that was the first time, 0:48:49.600 --> 0:48:52.520 and I don't know how many years that my heart 0:48:52.680 --> 0:48:57.400 was actually happy about the idea that I was gonna 0:48:57.520 --> 0:49:00.600 sing my songs again, because I don't know, if you 0:49:00.680 --> 0:49:04.280 know this thing. I had made a pact with myself 0:49:04.600 --> 0:49:07.400 not to do the songs because of certainly because of 0:49:07.440 --> 0:49:11.800 Saul's aunts and Fantasy records, because it was so personal. 0:49:11.920 --> 0:49:16.359 One man owned my songs and owned those records. And 0:49:16.719 --> 0:49:20.480 you know, it wasn't like he owned some other artists 0:49:20.480 --> 0:49:22.920 and all that, but none of them were like Credence. 0:49:23.400 --> 0:49:25.680 It was it was just one on one and he 0:49:25.760 --> 0:49:29.839 was very evil. So that I had made a very 0:49:29.880 --> 0:49:33.280 strong pact with myself to never sing those songs again 0:49:33.560 --> 0:49:38.560 because it would bring him such riches, right that that 0:49:38.640 --> 0:49:42.160 to do so was just playing into his hands. And 0:49:42.200 --> 0:49:45.359 so I have been, of course very unhappy about that 0:49:45.440 --> 0:49:49.719 whole situation. Gordian's not You might say that I could 0:49:49.719 --> 0:49:54.360 not solve the puzzle, and so that moment in Robert 0:49:54.560 --> 0:50:02.280 Johnson's um Grave area, Uh overcome by this that story, 0:50:02.440 --> 0:50:07.279 And I guess you might say the unfairness. But yet 0:50:07.520 --> 0:50:13.440 the inescapable logic that I had said to myself, I 0:50:13.560 --> 0:50:18.040 realized I could now do it. I wasn't whimping out 0:50:18.520 --> 0:50:22.120 or going back on, you know, my word or all. 0:50:22.160 --> 0:50:26.680 You know, if somehow the not had become open and free, 0:50:27.360 --> 0:50:30.840 and you know, without me changing my values, you might say, 0:50:31.360 --> 0:50:34.360 I guess, because that's what I literally happened. You know, 0:50:34.440 --> 0:50:38.000 I suppose a negative, a cynical person would twisted some 0:50:38.200 --> 0:50:41.799 other way. But I'm not listening. You know. I had 0:50:41.840 --> 0:50:45.600 this epiphany that said, you can sing your songs now, 0:50:46.239 --> 0:50:51.560 and that's what happened. But okay, but of course I 0:50:51.600 --> 0:50:54.799 wasn't touring, I wasn't out in the world. What I 0:50:54.880 --> 0:50:58.120 was doing it was, I was trying to write new 0:50:58.160 --> 0:51:01.239 songs and make a record, so you know, and I 0:51:01.280 --> 0:51:05.480 made several more trips down to Mississippi actually before I 0:51:05.480 --> 0:51:08.080 stopped doing that and went on to something else, mostly 0:51:08.120 --> 0:51:10.759 trying to write songs and taken up the dough bro. 0:51:11.960 --> 0:51:17.800 But um, as time went on, I finally wrote some songs, 0:51:18.719 --> 0:51:24.040 painfully got them recorded, and then finally happily got them 0:51:24.080 --> 0:51:28.120 recorded and Blue Moon Swamp became the album. This was 0:51:28.160 --> 0:51:33.200 now seven years later, and I had kind of forgotten 0:51:33.200 --> 0:51:38.080 all about what got me here. I was just happy 0:51:38.120 --> 0:51:40.520 that I had some songs and a new album, and 0:51:40.560 --> 0:51:44.040 I went into the record company to do what you 0:51:44.120 --> 0:51:47.920 might call, um make a press kit. And you know 0:51:47.920 --> 0:51:50.920 what they got to get together for releasing a record, 0:51:51.560 --> 0:51:53.640 and part of that was to, you know, to tell 0:51:53.719 --> 0:51:56.800 my story to someone that's going to write it down 0:51:56.960 --> 0:52:01.879 and make a bio a short story of your situation 0:52:02.000 --> 0:52:06.200 that they can stand out with the new record, and 0:52:06.200 --> 0:52:11.160 that pressed people can have, as I guess, materials that 0:52:11.239 --> 0:52:16.120 helped publicize the record. And at some point, remember this 0:52:16.160 --> 0:52:21.000 is now I'm telling my story. And then I I 0:52:21.719 --> 0:52:25.560 some somehow come up come up telling the story of 0:52:26.040 --> 0:52:29.360 I begin telling the story of Mississippi and Robert Johnson. 0:52:29.400 --> 0:52:32.120 I said, hey, you know, I made some trips down there. 0:52:32.120 --> 0:52:35.760 I was pretty fascinated. And one day I was standing, 0:52:36.080 --> 0:52:39.480 uh in front of the grave of Robert Johnson, and 0:52:39.719 --> 0:52:43.480 you know, I didn't really know why I was going 0:52:43.560 --> 0:52:46.600 to Mississippi, but I finally decided, you know, back then, 0:52:46.600 --> 0:52:48.400 it must be so I can look up all the 0:52:48.440 --> 0:52:51.960 old blues people. And I ended up, you know, having 0:52:52.000 --> 0:52:56.680 a little conversation about Barbert Johnson with myself and realizing 0:52:56.800 --> 0:52:59.920 his songs belonged to him and the world knew that. 0:53:00.200 --> 0:53:02.720 And I said, and then I realized my songs belong 0:53:02.800 --> 0:53:06.200 to me, and I should start recording my songs again. 0:53:06.400 --> 0:53:09.000 And I stopped, and I looked at the fella, and 0:53:09.120 --> 0:53:13.239 I said, oh my god, that was why I was 0:53:13.280 --> 0:53:17.360 supposed to go to Mississippi. That's what this whole thing was. 0:53:17.480 --> 0:53:20.680 Seven years later, you know, I was my brain exploded. 0:53:21.400 --> 0:53:24.200 I mean, because I did not realize it at the time. 0:53:24.239 --> 0:53:28.160 I realized that seven years later, what was the purpose 0:53:28.239 --> 0:53:33.280 of that trip? To me? That's still that weird stuff 0:53:33.320 --> 0:53:37.440 we uh all have happened to us, that where you 0:53:37.520 --> 0:53:42.160 realize somebody's paying attention. Okay, let's go back to fantasy. 0:53:42.200 --> 0:53:44.839 You talked about seven years that you didn't go on 0:53:44.880 --> 0:53:48.160 the road. You're making this record at this late date. 0:53:48.320 --> 0:53:51.400 People know most of the money is in the publishing 0:53:51.480 --> 0:53:55.239 and you sold those rights. How did you survive financially 0:53:55.280 --> 0:53:59.680 all these years? Good question. We got hey, we got 0:54:00.200 --> 0:54:04.600 married enough fever. Um. I know we got paid as 0:54:04.719 --> 0:54:12.880 credence um, haltingly. You know, in fits and spurts. We 0:54:12.960 --> 0:54:17.600 always had to audit and sometimes got I mean it 0:54:17.719 --> 0:54:22.280 was begrudgingly. Did we ever get paid? But I tried 0:54:22.400 --> 0:54:28.600 to save as I tried to live frugally. You might say, um, 0:54:28.640 --> 0:54:32.719 and so I had money in the bank, but we're 0:54:32.840 --> 0:54:37.320 talking in the hundreds of thousands, not living like a 0:54:37.400 --> 0:54:41.120 king in a mansion. But I mean I was living 0:54:41.200 --> 0:54:43.680 frugally at the time. I mean there was a there 0:54:43.760 --> 0:54:46.160 was one point you may remember this story in the 0:54:46.200 --> 0:54:49.880 middle eighties where I was sued for sounding like myself. 0:54:50.600 --> 0:54:53.800 Without going into that whole story, at that moment in time, 0:54:54.080 --> 0:54:57.120 Fantasy not only stopped paying me for that one song, 0:54:57.640 --> 0:55:00.920 they stopped paying me for. Their issue was we're not 0:55:00.960 --> 0:55:03.799 gonna pay you for any of the songs. And that's 0:55:03.800 --> 0:55:08.160 what they did. I mean, that's outrageous. They had fifties 0:55:08.160 --> 0:55:11.000 songs of mine or something on Credence albums, you know, 0:55:11.040 --> 0:55:18.000 probably Mary uh Um, Bad Moon, Rising, Green River, Commotion, 0:55:18.480 --> 0:55:21.000 Born on the Buyou Down on the Corner, and Fortunates. 0:55:21.000 --> 0:55:23.080 You know, they had all of them, all the album 0:55:23.200 --> 0:55:25.759 songs they've written, and they weren't paying a time for 0:55:25.800 --> 0:55:29.120 any of them until we after I won the trial. 0:55:29.640 --> 0:55:32.680 That was quite a few years. And even my own 0:55:32.760 --> 0:55:35.480 lawyer said, man, how did you manage to stay afloat 0:55:35.520 --> 0:55:39.279 without even getting paid? Well? I was living frugally, you know. 0:55:39.320 --> 0:55:41.720 I didn't go out and buy a bunch of stuff 0:55:41.760 --> 0:55:45.080 that that I really couldn't afford, and then you know, 0:55:45.120 --> 0:55:48.560 buy it on time with the idea of future royalties 0:55:48.800 --> 0:55:53.840 what not when you're on Fantasy. Um, So that was 0:55:53.960 --> 0:55:56.680 That's basically how I was able to get by. But yeah, 0:55:56.719 --> 0:56:06.680 for years and years I was not paid ya, Just 0:56:06.800 --> 0:56:11.080 so we get the history straight. When you sold to Fantasy, 0:56:11.360 --> 0:56:16.680 they already owned the recordings, they therefore owned the songs, 0:56:16.760 --> 0:56:20.799 but they still played you writer's royalties. What exactly was 0:56:20.880 --> 0:56:23.000 the deal? Yes, and by the way, we did not 0:56:23.560 --> 0:56:27.400 sell in my mind anyway. You know, their lawyers speak 0:56:28.000 --> 0:56:34.120 in a whole language of gobblygook, and anybody that's lived 0:56:34.200 --> 0:56:37.840 longer than twenty years starts to learn that they're basically 0:56:38.719 --> 0:56:43.600 charge some multiple of a certain number by how many 0:56:43.719 --> 0:56:48.080 words they write or speak. It's so, yeah, it might 0:56:48.120 --> 0:56:51.160 be several thousand dollars per word, but it's the more 0:56:51.239 --> 0:56:55.040 words they can cram into any document, the higher they 0:56:55.080 --> 0:56:57.480 get paid. It's as simple as that. And don't you 0:56:57.520 --> 0:57:01.640 try to tell me it's something else, because it's not true. Um. 0:57:01.680 --> 0:57:03.960 And so they just jam all these words in there 0:57:04.040 --> 0:57:07.279 that no human being can understand. And I believe that's 0:57:07.280 --> 0:57:10.319 why when you get all done with this contract that 0:57:10.400 --> 0:57:14.040 you've sunk your life into and placed your faith in, 0:57:14.880 --> 0:57:18.000 five years later, some other lawyer comes along and says, well, actually, 0:57:18.000 --> 0:57:22.680 those words don't mean that that those words mean, and 0:57:23.000 --> 0:57:25.960 you're screwed anyway, even though you paid a lot of money. 0:57:26.000 --> 0:57:27.920 And by the way, does that first lawyer give you 0:57:27.960 --> 0:57:32.920 the money back? Does it didn't work? No? So uh, 0:57:33.000 --> 0:57:36.360 at the beginning of the beginning, when the first when 0:57:36.360 --> 0:57:40.360 that record contract was signed, in the same contract, they 0:57:40.440 --> 0:57:44.440 already own a future song that I will write. I 0:57:44.520 --> 0:57:46.440 did not have a song and walk in there and 0:57:46.440 --> 0:57:49.479 then some man says Hey, John, that sounds pretty good. 0:57:49.640 --> 0:57:53.160 I'll give you three dollars for that song. You know. 0:57:53.320 --> 0:57:56.480 It wasn't like that. I knew better than that. But 0:57:56.640 --> 0:58:01.920 we had already signed our rights away. Actually before I 0:58:02.040 --> 0:58:05.480 actually started writing the majority of the songs, we were 0:58:05.520 --> 0:58:11.160 already under a contract that said Saul owns your songs 0:58:11.240 --> 0:58:14.920 that you write for the next several years. Okay, but 0:58:15.120 --> 0:58:19.320 the legend is that the three other members of the 0:58:19.360 --> 0:58:23.440 band talked to some professional and that a certain asset 0:58:24.040 --> 0:58:27.720 was sold to Fantasy for a million dollars or something. 0:58:27.760 --> 0:58:30.760 It's that ring a bell. No, I'm not sure I 0:58:30.800 --> 0:58:33.560 even know what that means. All I know is we 0:58:33.560 --> 0:58:38.720 were all under contract for recording, and we were all 0:58:38.760 --> 0:58:43.400 also under contract for songwriting. It's just that the other 0:58:43.560 --> 0:58:49.800 three didn't write any songs until after that contract had expired. 0:58:49.880 --> 0:58:53.920 The only one that had songs written that Saul's ants 0:58:54.000 --> 0:58:58.760 owned was me. Um. He might say I served the 0:58:58.840 --> 0:59:02.000 time for that. Um. You know, had had it been 0:59:02.160 --> 0:59:06.080 a situation where Tom wrote songs or Doug Clifford wrote 0:59:06.160 --> 0:59:13.120 songs during that time, Saul would have owned those songs. Um. 0:59:13.160 --> 0:59:19.640 At the time. After the credence broke up in seventy two. 0:59:20.040 --> 0:59:22.720 Tom left the band at the end of nineteen seventy, 0:59:22.800 --> 0:59:27.080 but Credence kind of soldiered on as a trio, but 0:59:27.200 --> 0:59:33.280 officially broke up in seventy two, at which point, even 0:59:33.320 --> 0:59:37.120 though we were all under contracts yeah for a fleeting 0:59:37.120 --> 0:59:39.400 amount of time, I thought that meant, well, the group 0:59:39.520 --> 0:59:43.400 is no more now I'm free. Didn't happen that way. 0:59:43.720 --> 0:59:49.479 I was not free, but Fantasy almost immediately sent three 0:59:49.560 --> 0:59:52.479 letters to the other three members of Credence and said, 0:59:53.240 --> 0:59:58.760 you are now not under contract to Fantasy. Therefore, we 0:59:58.840 --> 1:00:01.320 will not pay for any albums you go out and 1:00:01.400 --> 1:00:03.760 record or any of the rest of it, because they 1:00:03.760 --> 1:00:07.040 didn't want them to spend any money because I'm sure 1:00:07.680 --> 1:00:10.440 I didn't see much future in what they would record. 1:00:11.040 --> 1:00:13.520 But they didn't let me go. I was still under 1:00:14.440 --> 1:00:20.800 contract as a recording artist until finally I sold my 1:00:20.960 --> 1:00:27.680 rights to two artists royalties back to them in so 1:00:27.760 --> 1:00:32.720 that I would no longer owe them future recordings. That 1:00:32.880 --> 1:00:38.160 was at the end near the Was that a significant amount. 1:00:39.200 --> 1:00:41.800 Here's the way I looked at it, Bob, Since you 1:00:41.840 --> 1:00:44.760 guys are screwing me out of my artist royalties, you know, 1:00:44.840 --> 1:00:46.880 every other week, and I have to go get a 1:00:46.960 --> 1:00:51.959 lawyer and literally, as we speak, auditing you for two 1:00:52.000 --> 1:00:57.080 different periods of time that you have not paid me, right, uh, 1:00:57.120 --> 1:01:00.440 And these were times after the initial couple three years. 1:01:01.040 --> 1:01:04.880 These were times from maybe seventy five to seventy seven 1:01:04.960 --> 1:01:08.120 and then seventies seven to eighty or something like that. 1:01:09.000 --> 1:01:11.400 And since you're screwing me out of so much money, 1:01:11.720 --> 1:01:13.880 I mean, the way I had to tell myself, even 1:01:13.920 --> 1:01:16.760 though there would be a long future, you know, years 1:01:16.800 --> 1:01:19.720 into the future that I could hope to get paid 1:01:20.720 --> 1:01:24.120 artists royalties, it was I had to tell myself, it's 1:01:24.120 --> 1:01:28.000 gonna be so minimal. And remember, I'm one quarter of 1:01:28.000 --> 1:01:31.680 a band, right and we were getting paid pennies, and 1:01:31.720 --> 1:01:36.200 then that had to be I got one quarter of that. Um. 1:01:36.320 --> 1:01:39.280 I just looked at it as my next three albums 1:01:39.280 --> 1:01:42.840 are gonna be great records, and I don't want them 1:01:42.880 --> 1:01:46.680 to own an album way into the future. And to 1:01:46.880 --> 1:01:51.240 tell you how meaningful that was, if I had not 1:01:51.400 --> 1:01:55.080 done that in Night, they would have owned Blue Moon 1:01:55.240 --> 1:02:00.800 Swamp in and that's the name of that story. Well, okay, 1:02:00.880 --> 1:02:05.000 so ultimately Fantasy was bought by Concorde. What is the 1:02:05.080 --> 1:02:10.360 status of your ownership and royalty situation in all those records. Today, 1:02:10.600 --> 1:02:14.880 I get paid artists royalties such as it was at 1:02:14.920 --> 1:02:22.360 the time Credence existed by Concord Records on the Concorde 1:02:22.360 --> 1:02:29.440 on the records that Concord distributes that were Credence records. UM. 1:02:29.560 --> 1:02:33.280 And I've managed to get myself a little bit of 1:02:33.320 --> 1:02:40.880 a bump upward by um signing on with Concord for 1:02:41.120 --> 1:02:44.600 UM there at various times, like I made a record 1:02:45.080 --> 1:02:51.920 for Concord in uh believe it was two thousand seven 1:02:52.080 --> 1:02:55.880 something like that. I know that when Fantasy was finally 1:02:55.920 --> 1:02:58.720 sold by and saw I didn't own it anymore, that 1:02:58.880 --> 1:03:02.440 seemed like a pretty positive thing to me and Julie 1:03:02.480 --> 1:03:06.240 and I went back and tried to ingratiate ourselves with 1:03:06.320 --> 1:03:09.560 the new owners and it's sort of worked, and it 1:03:09.720 --> 1:03:11.520 sort of did. I don't want to get into all 1:03:11.560 --> 1:03:16.320 the stuff, but um, you know, record companies end up 1:03:16.360 --> 1:03:21.280 acting like record companies, and it unfortunately, UM, it is 1:03:21.320 --> 1:03:24.520 a business, I'll just say it that way. And for 1:03:24.600 --> 1:03:28.720 a for an artist and for a person who's personal 1:03:29.920 --> 1:03:35.080 value system and belief system is sort of an artistic system, 1:03:35.120 --> 1:03:39.440 it's just really hard and difficult when people see only 1:03:39.520 --> 1:03:43.080 the business side, and everything is bottom line, and you 1:03:43.120 --> 1:03:45.520 know I will never listen to I want to hold 1:03:45.560 --> 1:03:48.720 your hand and sit here and think about what the 1:03:48.760 --> 1:03:51.720 bottom line must look like. That's not how I relate 1:03:51.760 --> 1:03:55.640 to the musical world, nor how I relate to John 1:03:55.720 --> 1:04:00.160 Lennon and McCartney and the Beatles, and or Otis reading 1:04:00.640 --> 1:04:04.160 or book or team the MGS, or even Elvis, who 1:04:04.240 --> 1:04:07.280 you know certainly got involved in a lot of whose 1:04:07.320 --> 1:04:10.400 business became well known. Let's say, I mean all that 1:04:10.600 --> 1:04:15.360 music that stirred my soul. Um, you know, I still 1:04:15.400 --> 1:04:19.840 relate to it that way, and thankfully so, and I 1:04:19.880 --> 1:04:21.919 hope it stays that way un till the day I die. 1:04:22.080 --> 1:04:24.800 Just to put a bow on it. You're sophisticated, Maybe 1:04:24.800 --> 1:04:27.800 not everybody. The audience is. There's a hundred cents in 1:04:27.840 --> 1:04:32.000 the dollar publishing. Traditionally, if someone else owns the publishing, 1:04:32.080 --> 1:04:35.480 they get fifty cents and the writer gets fifty cents. 1:04:35.960 --> 1:04:39.479 How is your publishing split up today, just the same way, 1:04:39.720 --> 1:04:47.440 as far as I know, it is right, Um, the 1:04:46.800 --> 1:04:51.680 the the whole context of that is, somebody actually owns 1:04:52.160 --> 1:04:56.080 Proud Mary or any other song that has copyright. Someone 1:04:56.120 --> 1:05:00.600 actually has ownership and having the ownership of the song 1:05:01.920 --> 1:05:06.000 means you get to determine the destiny of that song, 1:05:06.040 --> 1:05:13.280 in other words, how it's used. Um. And so as 1:05:13.320 --> 1:05:16.560 you said, there's a hundred, there's a hundred pennies. And 1:05:16.680 --> 1:05:20.240 if the publishing or if the ownership is to make 1:05:20.240 --> 1:05:24.480 it simpler, if the ownership is split fifty fifty, the 1:05:24.560 --> 1:05:27.800 person that is the publisher is getting fifty cents and 1:05:27.840 --> 1:05:31.920 the person that is the songwriter is getting fifty cents. 1:05:31.920 --> 1:05:35.200 And that's the most fair way that that should be. 1:05:35.680 --> 1:05:39.760 But the owner, who is also probably that publisher that 1:05:39.800 --> 1:05:43.680 I just named, he's getting to the side how that 1:05:43.800 --> 1:05:48.960 song is used. For instance, if Proud Mary gets used 1:05:49.000 --> 1:05:52.480 as an underarm deodorant and the poor guy that wrote 1:05:52.520 --> 1:05:56.480 the song takes offense at that doesn't want to see 1:05:56.520 --> 1:06:03.680 some lumberjack's hairy armpit connect did with his song, um um, 1:06:04.600 --> 1:06:09.920 proud Mary or Send in the Clowns or love as 1:06:09.960 --> 1:06:13.520 a mini splendid thing, you know, I mean, But the 1:06:13.560 --> 1:06:17.600 writer probably does not get to control that destiny. The 1:06:17.920 --> 1:06:21.880 publisher or the owner does. And that's where you hear 1:06:22.080 --> 1:06:27.400 song Usually songwriters hawking about how things get used. Certainly 1:06:27.440 --> 1:06:31.960 this songwriter anyway, so how's royalty revenue these days? For you? 1:06:32.440 --> 1:06:34.600 I don't pay as much attention to that as you 1:06:34.640 --> 1:06:38.080 would hope a guy like you just called me sophisticated. Thanks, 1:06:38.320 --> 1:06:44.439 I resemble that. Um, you know, it kind of never 1:06:44.480 --> 1:06:47.760 really works out. I mean, all the years that I 1:06:47.840 --> 1:06:52.760 was on Fantasy, I always suspected that, um, you know, 1:06:52.800 --> 1:06:55.720 that there were other pressing plants somewhere and making pressing 1:06:55.760 --> 1:07:00.479 records and selling them that I never even saw any 1:07:00.560 --> 1:07:06.400 kind of report about. And you'll never you'll never convince 1:07:06.480 --> 1:07:09.480 me that didn't happen, because every other thing that saw 1:07:10.040 --> 1:07:14.240 Zance did was so crooked. Um, it's just hard to 1:07:14.240 --> 1:07:17.960 believe that he avoided that very easy thing for him, 1:07:18.000 --> 1:07:20.160 that in fact, he's the guy that told me about 1:07:20.200 --> 1:07:24.360 such situations in the first place. And I always I 1:07:24.480 --> 1:07:27.600 know that one time, think this was the early days 1:07:27.640 --> 1:07:33.080 of credent success and um you know, ah g, we've 1:07:33.200 --> 1:07:35.880 John's writing all these songs. And I was actually visiting 1:07:35.960 --> 1:07:40.720 Saul in his office at the at one of the 1:07:40.800 --> 1:07:45.960 earlier locations, which was the place in Oakland that Fantasy 1:07:46.040 --> 1:07:50.200 had for it was almost temporary, only one block from 1:07:50.360 --> 1:07:54.440 the famous Ducky Market. It's the front cover of Willie 1:07:54.440 --> 1:07:57.720 and the Poor Boys. But anyway, I was down there visiting, 1:07:58.520 --> 1:08:00.840 and there was a man from being my which is 1:08:00.960 --> 1:08:08.720 the uh uh songwriters Performance Association that keeps track of 1:08:08.720 --> 1:08:12.800 how many times records are played so that the songwriter 1:08:13.200 --> 1:08:16.920 usually the publisher too. But it's a it's a way 1:08:16.960 --> 1:08:20.040 that the creator of the song can be paid for 1:08:20.120 --> 1:08:23.760 all those uh times that the songs played on the 1:08:23.880 --> 1:08:27.400 radio or even in movies and other things. So this 1:08:27.400 --> 1:08:31.160 guy from it is called Broadcast Music Incorporated b m I. 1:08:31.560 --> 1:08:34.200 Any songwriter will tell you. So there was happen to 1:08:34.240 --> 1:08:37.479 be a guy there in the office where I'm visiting. 1:08:37.560 --> 1:08:40.680 You know, we're all flushed with this new success and 1:08:41.400 --> 1:08:44.640 Saul sitting there and this fella from b m I, 1:08:44.760 --> 1:08:48.120 and so I kind of just innocently said, well, um, well, 1:08:48.120 --> 1:08:52.280 how does b m I spit split the relationship between 1:08:52.280 --> 1:08:55.759 the publisher and the songwriter? You know? Is it fifty 1:08:55.840 --> 1:09:00.080 cents for each? And saw suddenly face turns bright. It 1:09:00.280 --> 1:09:02.640 I mean, smoke is coming out of his ears and 1:09:02.680 --> 1:09:08.960 he's you know, and this fella herb um, and I 1:09:09.000 --> 1:09:11.559 won't go any further than that. He says, well, I 1:09:11.560 --> 1:09:16.040 think it's paid a little more for the publisher than 1:09:16.080 --> 1:09:20.800 the songwriter. And that was the first inkling I had that, Oh, 1:09:20.960 --> 1:09:23.920 there's stuff back there behind that curtain that I'm not 1:09:23.960 --> 1:09:27.920 supposed to pay attention to, and uh wow, I better 1:09:27.960 --> 1:09:30.680 not bring it up here today because I'm about to 1:09:30.720 --> 1:09:35.200 be lanced, you know. But obviously I had, and quite 1:09:35.200 --> 1:09:38.599 innocently I wasn't. I I thought we were all friends here. 1:09:39.000 --> 1:09:42.280 I thought we were so happy that I can hope, 1:09:42.280 --> 1:09:46.360 against hope, we're having actually having hit records, because none 1:09:46.360 --> 1:09:50.439 of us had ever experienced that before. But you know, 1:09:50.560 --> 1:09:53.920 like that those scenes in Treasure of the Sierra Madre 1:09:54.120 --> 1:09:57.600 where the poor fellas actually discover a gold mine and 1:09:57.640 --> 1:10:01.479 then things go really bad. Um, that's kind of what 1:10:01.640 --> 1:10:05.439 happened forgetting all the business shenan against the contracts. Just 1:10:05.520 --> 1:10:08.800 talking about what's coming into your bank account. Is that 1:10:08.920 --> 1:10:14.639 a good amount of money today? Yeah? Sure, by any stretch. Um, 1:10:14.680 --> 1:10:18.960 that's makes me happy. It's far less than what it 1:10:19.120 --> 1:10:22.519 used to be. UM. And the simple answer, of course, 1:10:22.640 --> 1:10:28.360 is that because of the online streaming, an actual physical 1:10:28.520 --> 1:10:33.120 record doesn't get sold very much anymore. You know, a 1:10:33.160 --> 1:10:40.360 CD or whatever physical um thing holds an album, and 1:10:40.439 --> 1:10:43.920 so most of the music gets listened to by streaming 1:10:43.960 --> 1:10:49.280 off the internet and so the way and people can 1:10:49.320 --> 1:10:53.640 buy those, um, I suppose from iTunes or Spotify or 1:10:54.080 --> 1:10:58.160 there must be other places. Um, but you are paid 1:10:58.520 --> 1:11:02.960 pennies on the dollar for what uh what it used 1:11:03.040 --> 1:11:05.240 to be. I know, the cost of an album is 1:11:05.280 --> 1:11:09.320 far less that way. And also the record companies all 1:11:09.760 --> 1:11:14.240 it's like that clam at the bottom, the giant clam 1:11:14.360 --> 1:11:19.920 that grabbed the pearl diver in the song leah Uh, 1:11:19.960 --> 1:11:24.120 they snap shut. When streaming was invented, he said, okay, 1:11:24.200 --> 1:11:27.720 we have a new um, what do you call new technology? 1:11:27.840 --> 1:11:32.000 And now you know we used to pay you, um, 1:11:32.000 --> 1:11:35.000 eight dollars or whatever it was on an album or 1:11:35.040 --> 1:11:37.880 four dollar or whatever it was. Then we're now going 1:11:37.960 --> 1:11:41.960 to pay you far less, you know, some percentage because 1:11:42.000 --> 1:11:46.400 there's no physical actual property and they could be the same, 1:11:46.560 --> 1:11:48.680 but there they don't. I mean, they could pay you 1:11:48.720 --> 1:11:54.879 the same percentage. Let's say it was percent of retail 1:11:55.080 --> 1:11:58.679 or something like that, but they don't. They'll pay you 1:11:59.800 --> 1:12:03.360 for eight percent ever, you know, it's some a ridiculous number. Again, 1:12:03.479 --> 1:12:06.679 you end up, if you're a successful artist, you're making 1:12:07.240 --> 1:12:10.639 into the millions of dollars. So trust me, Bob, I'm 1:12:10.640 --> 1:12:13.680 not sitting here crying in my beer. Um. I'm just 1:12:13.720 --> 1:12:16.840 trying to explain that it's now far less than it 1:12:17.000 --> 1:12:20.880 used to be because of that situation. Okay, you talk 1:12:20.960 --> 1:12:25.080 about all this traveling to Mississippi, going into the post office, 1:12:25.080 --> 1:12:30.000 is going to visit Julian, Indiana. The people recognize you everywhere. 1:12:30.160 --> 1:12:33.800 What's it like being John Fogerty once you leave your house? Well, 1:12:33.960 --> 1:12:37.519 you know, the pen the pandemic has been wonderful. I'm 1:12:37.520 --> 1:12:40.080 walking around with a mask on, you know, the one 1:12:40.120 --> 1:12:43.559 that says Johnpoverty across the frame. And you know, I'm 1:12:43.600 --> 1:12:47.120 just like everybody else. I'll take it back a few years. 1:12:47.200 --> 1:12:52.639 Let me click back, Um, when people would stop me, 1:12:53.200 --> 1:12:55.720 you know a lot of times, you know, excuse me. 1:12:55.760 --> 1:12:59.160 When I when I was first getting to know Julie, 1:12:59.240 --> 1:13:02.439 her daughter Lindsay was two and a half three, Like 1:13:02.479 --> 1:13:08.720 I said, you know, we finally we're cohabiting and a family. Um. 1:13:08.880 --> 1:13:11.920 Lenzy was getting to be four years old and quite 1:13:11.920 --> 1:13:17.599 a little um manifesto herself. And one day she actually 1:13:17.640 --> 1:13:22.439 said to Julie and I, John, how come people always 1:13:22.439 --> 1:13:25.120 come up to you and say, aren't you John Bogoty. 1:13:25.439 --> 1:13:27.800 You know, she's a kid and she's wondering why that 1:13:27.840 --> 1:13:31.840 would happen, and I mean, it was an interesting phenomenon 1:13:31.920 --> 1:13:35.120 to a child. And I I told her, you know, 1:13:35.200 --> 1:13:38.000 we both kind of Saturday and said, well, you know, 1:13:38.160 --> 1:13:41.479 John is a famous musician and people like his music. 1:13:41.560 --> 1:13:43.719 So when they see him, you know, and they actually 1:13:43.760 --> 1:13:46.600 really like, oh, that's him. You know at the supermarket, 1:13:47.280 --> 1:13:49.200 the ones that are let's say a little less shy 1:13:49.360 --> 1:13:52.080 will come up and talk. And what the reason I 1:13:52.120 --> 1:13:56.160 bring this up is I always approach those moments in 1:13:56.200 --> 1:14:01.160 the most sweet way because it's a blessing, you know. 1:14:01.640 --> 1:14:05.000 Number one, It's solidified to me in my mind the 1:14:05.040 --> 1:14:08.799 way I felt about Julie and lindsay, this was happening 1:14:08.840 --> 1:14:11.600 to us together and it was kind of it was 1:14:11.640 --> 1:14:14.200 really sweet. I wasn't like a horde of people like 1:14:14.240 --> 1:14:16.120 in the Beatle movies or something, you know. I was 1:14:16.640 --> 1:14:18.679 used a man and wife, maybe a man and wife 1:14:18.680 --> 1:14:22.240 with one child. And it was always low key because 1:14:22.600 --> 1:14:25.519 in those days I wasn't touring there. There wasn't new 1:14:25.600 --> 1:14:29.160 music out yet. You know, later on as music came 1:14:29.160 --> 1:14:31.920 out and I was on tour, or certainly if I 1:14:32.000 --> 1:14:36.080 was anywhere near a place I was performing, there would 1:14:36.120 --> 1:14:41.000 be an obvious connection, and it got a little more hectic, 1:14:41.080 --> 1:14:44.400 but I tried to deal with it the best I could, 1:14:44.960 --> 1:14:48.440 and I was I was very naive about this. UM 1:14:48.640 --> 1:14:53.599 started touring after Blue Moon Swamp, and of course you're 1:14:53.640 --> 1:14:57.120 flying to towns that aren't within driving distance that means 1:14:57.160 --> 1:15:01.000 almost every place, and and at an airport, and there 1:15:01.000 --> 1:15:05.000 would suddenly be these strangers that had um sheets of 1:15:05.040 --> 1:15:10.840 paper and uh, sometimes guitars and sometimes drumheads, and they 1:15:10.880 --> 1:15:14.040 want you to sign this stuff, or even pictures or albums, 1:15:14.479 --> 1:15:17.280 and I would sign them all. Okay, you know, I 1:15:17.280 --> 1:15:20.439 started signing them, and you know just I mean, that 1:15:20.479 --> 1:15:23.840 went on for several years. And I remember around in 1:15:23.880 --> 1:15:28.439 that time seeing Mark McGuire, the famous baseball player, who 1:15:28.840 --> 1:15:33.919 was talking about how he came to not sign things anymore. 1:15:34.000 --> 1:15:36.320 He said, he'd be in a motel, you know, the 1:15:36.360 --> 1:15:39.559 A's or whatever team he's with, was on the road, 1:15:40.520 --> 1:15:43.760 and a man came knock on his motel door. You know, 1:15:43.920 --> 1:15:47.400 it was signed my baseball bat or whatever, and he 1:15:47.479 --> 1:15:49.680 started to get a little grumpy because he realized they 1:15:49.680 --> 1:15:52.320 were running off and selling these things. He said, so 1:15:52.360 --> 1:15:54.680 then they started knocking on the door and they'd have 1:15:54.760 --> 1:15:58.400 the little kid stand there and Daddy wasn't anywhere in sight. 1:15:58.960 --> 1:16:02.720 But Mark knew that how does this kid managed to 1:16:02.760 --> 1:16:06.000 come to where I am? You know? And they put 1:16:06.000 --> 1:16:08.599 a little b in my bonnet at least. But still 1:16:08.640 --> 1:16:11.559 I was signing all the people that came to see me. 1:16:12.400 --> 1:16:14.519 Finally I got it in my head that these people 1:16:14.560 --> 1:16:17.760 were just turning around and selling everything on eBay. They 1:16:17.800 --> 1:16:20.760 weren't necessarily pains. I mean, when a guy walks up 1:16:20.800 --> 1:16:24.920 to you has got a briefcase full of everything connected 1:16:24.960 --> 1:16:30.160 to you, but he's also got other briefcases. You know. 1:16:30.920 --> 1:16:35.280 That particularly would happen um in airports where there was 1:16:35.320 --> 1:16:38.320 like a festival, and so these guys were showing up, 1:16:38.720 --> 1:16:43.200 Um who were gonna snag anybody who you know, any 1:16:43.280 --> 1:16:47.000 fly that that landed here on the fly paper, and 1:16:47.160 --> 1:16:49.080 it didn't matter who he was. They probably had it 1:16:49.240 --> 1:16:52.160 covered with a couple of items, you know, And I 1:16:52.200 --> 1:16:54.040 would do it. And it started to know it started 1:16:54.040 --> 1:16:57.280 to be inconvenient to my family because I'm I'm trying 1:16:57.280 --> 1:17:00.960 to get my family to our The next part of 1:17:00.960 --> 1:17:04.200 our ride are either the the car, the so called 1:17:04.280 --> 1:17:07.000 limo that's going to take you to your hotel or 1:17:07.040 --> 1:17:11.439 to your venue or whatever. Um. And I had little 1:17:11.520 --> 1:17:14.320 kids with me, and it started to actually be dangerous 1:17:14.360 --> 1:17:16.760 at times. So you know, Julie would look at me 1:17:16.840 --> 1:17:20.080 and you know, I really wanted to do it and 1:17:20.120 --> 1:17:23.760 then assign it, I mean and being obligating uh, obliging 1:17:24.439 --> 1:17:28.559 um artists. And then other times I begin to actually 1:17:28.560 --> 1:17:33.400 see a businessman stare me in the face. The worst, Bob, 1:17:33.439 --> 1:17:35.600 the worst one of these that ever happened was I 1:17:35.880 --> 1:17:39.760 couldn't even tell you what town. Uh. It's back when 1:17:40.240 --> 1:17:43.800 people could follow you right to your gate where you 1:17:43.840 --> 1:17:46.360 were going to take off. And this guy had this 1:17:47.280 --> 1:17:51.240 among Us video camera on his shoulder and he comes 1:17:51.280 --> 1:17:55.439 walking up and says, well, John, UM, tell me some 1:17:55.479 --> 1:17:57.960 words about that. And I looked at and said, well, yeah, okay, 1:17:58.000 --> 1:18:01.000 I'm I'm happy to be touring. And then he's asking 1:18:01.000 --> 1:18:03.400 me a couple of more questions and I'm you know, 1:18:03.439 --> 1:18:05.680 I've got my kids with me, and well, I want 1:18:05.720 --> 1:18:08.040 to get to the gate, you know, and get everybody settled. 1:18:08.200 --> 1:18:10.800 We don't have a lot of time. He says, well, no, 1:18:10.960 --> 1:18:14.400 you are you going to honest, buddy? I I gave 1:18:14.400 --> 1:18:17.000 you a little time. Now. Now my brother Bob comes up. 1:18:17.280 --> 1:18:21.200 He sees I, I'm in a hopeless situation. I'm trying 1:18:21.240 --> 1:18:26.120 to be nice, so I can't be firm because he's 1:18:26.200 --> 1:18:29.080 switched from the guy. It doesn't matter if he gets 1:18:29.080 --> 1:18:31.519 me as a nice guy and I have something polite 1:18:31.560 --> 1:18:35.360 to say, that's probably one kind of paparazzi stuff. But 1:18:35.400 --> 1:18:38.320 if he can get me to actually turn purple, because 1:18:38.360 --> 1:18:40.680 now I'm mad at the guy, this is better and 1:18:40.720 --> 1:18:43.400 you'll get he can sell it for more money. So 1:18:43.479 --> 1:18:46.000 he's trying to make me mad. He's starting to bait me. 1:18:46.280 --> 1:18:49.559 And that's when Bob, here's it, and I'm I don't 1:18:49.600 --> 1:18:54.000 know how to react right, I'm still almost being sophisticated. 1:18:54.400 --> 1:18:56.920 Bob comes up, says, the buddy, you're just gonna have 1:18:57.000 --> 1:18:59.519 to turn it off. Take it away. John gave you 1:18:59.520 --> 1:19:02.800 a little bit, now, please go away. Says well, I 1:19:02.840 --> 1:19:04.720 hope you have a miserable this is the guy. I 1:19:04.720 --> 1:19:07.120 hope you have a bad fight. I hope the airplane 1:19:07.160 --> 1:19:12.560 crashes and I'm going wow. And after that I realized 1:19:12.600 --> 1:19:17.120 that it's it's pretty complicated to get involved with people 1:19:17.160 --> 1:19:21.080 that want something from you while you're traveling especially with 1:19:21.120 --> 1:19:23.840 your family. Going back to the beginning, what kind of 1:19:23.960 --> 1:19:26.080 kid were you? Were you kind of kid who had 1:19:26.080 --> 1:19:28.120 a lot of friends, or the kid who was staying 1:19:28.160 --> 1:19:32.400 at home reading comic books. We're a good student, bad student. 1:19:32.840 --> 1:19:35.959 I was all of those, you know, don't get me started, 1:19:36.200 --> 1:19:38.840 but the big huge I was just talking with someone 1:19:39.360 --> 1:19:43.080 yesterday about this subject. That the time I remember, you know, 1:19:43.120 --> 1:19:45.639 when you were a kid. There's even a good country 1:19:45.720 --> 1:19:49.120 song I love has this in it. We were outside. 1:19:49.760 --> 1:19:52.080 You know what he's stayed in around? We were outside. 1:19:52.120 --> 1:19:54.280 There was nothing in your house. Your parents are in 1:19:54.320 --> 1:19:57.040 your house. Who wants to be in your house? You 1:19:57.120 --> 1:20:00.439 go outside and mess around. You know, we're gonna see 1:20:00.479 --> 1:20:04.280 our friends. We're gonna go mess around. Uh do stuff 1:20:04.280 --> 1:20:07.080 on our bicycle, you know, Uh, get on our bikes, 1:20:07.320 --> 1:20:11.360 go over to someplace that's a bacon a lot. I mean, wow, 1:20:11.600 --> 1:20:14.760 a bacon lot was such a world, a universe. We 1:20:14.760 --> 1:20:17.919 didn't even have malls yet. I get it. I understand 1:20:17.960 --> 1:20:20.920 why a mall is an attraction. But I'm talking all 1:20:21.000 --> 1:20:24.040 the time before that, you just you found things to do. 1:20:24.160 --> 1:20:28.479 You probably had a bicycle, um and your friends and 1:20:28.520 --> 1:20:31.960 you all did things outside. It was just that was 1:20:32.240 --> 1:20:36.639 a good life. Um. Later, of course, because of TV 1:20:36.880 --> 1:20:40.519 and especially because of gaming, you know, the video games 1:20:40.560 --> 1:20:43.639 and stuff, and then online people started more and more 1:20:43.800 --> 1:20:48.720 congregate in. But I was an outdoor kid. I did 1:20:48.760 --> 1:20:52.040 all of that. I love messing around. I loved going 1:20:52.080 --> 1:20:54.599 with a couple of friends and hiking over the um 1:20:54.960 --> 1:20:58.000 Indian Rock. We client as a place in the Bay Area. 1:20:58.160 --> 1:21:01.960 I'm sure it's still there a few miles from my house. 1:21:02.479 --> 1:21:05.360 You know, all all the cool things. I was in traffics, 1:21:05.400 --> 1:21:10.120 and that means I was helped the students across the crosswalk. Uh, 1:21:10.200 --> 1:21:15.080 during recesses and times when school was either coming in 1:21:15.200 --> 1:21:19.080 or going out, and so we got little passes to 1:21:19.160 --> 1:21:23.240 the local theater. And I love going down on Saturday 1:21:23.840 --> 1:21:30.240 and seeing a movie for free or for five cents. Uh. 1:21:30.280 --> 1:21:34.600 You know, I loved music early, so I began to 1:21:34.680 --> 1:21:38.400 be fascinated. We had an old Stella guitar. Believe it 1:21:38.520 --> 1:21:41.320 or not, I was blessed and lucky enough that that's 1:21:41.960 --> 1:21:46.280 part of my upbringing. Uh. It didn't work very well, 1:21:46.920 --> 1:21:49.120 but it's acoustic. But the fact that it was a 1:21:49.200 --> 1:21:52.479 Stella rather than some other brand name. By the way, 1:21:52.479 --> 1:21:55.919 that's probably Sears Roebuck. It's where my parents got it. 1:21:55.920 --> 1:21:59.240 It's really hard to play, as my brother Bob says, Yeah, 1:21:59.280 --> 1:22:02.439 we played baseball all with that thing. Yeah, we use 1:22:02.520 --> 1:22:04.720 it for a bat, but it was built like a 1:22:04.760 --> 1:22:09.520 tank and it's the same kind lead belly had, you know. Um, 1:22:09.680 --> 1:22:12.880 So those things were in in my life. You know, 1:22:13.080 --> 1:22:16.240 I think I had the normal amount of friends, but 1:22:16.360 --> 1:22:19.120 they were there and I was I loved hanging out 1:22:19.160 --> 1:22:22.519 with them. There were other times when I was in 1:22:22.600 --> 1:22:25.640 my room, you know, like the wonderful song by the 1:22:25.640 --> 1:22:29.519 Beach Boys. I suppose it's Brian Wilson. Um that just 1:22:29.600 --> 1:22:33.000 says it so well. You know, it's that that area 1:22:33.160 --> 1:22:37.280 of your life where that's your sanctuary, that's your place 1:22:37.320 --> 1:22:39.880 where a lot of your thinking gets done or a 1:22:39.920 --> 1:22:42.759 lot of your fears. You know, it's a it really 1:22:42.840 --> 1:22:45.880 is a true thing. And for me, of course, I 1:22:45.920 --> 1:22:49.559 had my radio and my little record player and a 1:22:49.600 --> 1:22:57.480 lot of my world exploring music. You know, the whole mysterious, 1:22:57.640 --> 1:23:02.120 magical thing to me, and music was certainly that. I mean, 1:23:02.360 --> 1:23:05.920 first I loved music or I was attracted, but it 1:23:05.960 --> 1:23:09.600 became this It was so full of mystery, and you know, 1:23:09.680 --> 1:23:11.599 I had the old fashioned kind of radio, I guess 1:23:11.600 --> 1:23:14.280 you'd call that analog. And so at night you would 1:23:14.320 --> 1:23:19.360 be was edging the dial, the tuning dial between stations, 1:23:19.400 --> 1:23:22.920 and sometimes you get stations from out of town you 1:23:23.000 --> 1:23:26.320 never heard before. It might be Montana or you know, 1:23:26.400 --> 1:23:29.360 some other far away place that just because of the 1:23:29.439 --> 1:23:34.280 atmospheric anomalies, it was bouncing off a cloud and coming 1:23:34.280 --> 1:23:38.720 to you but in sort of a uh rhythmically an 1:23:38.800 --> 1:23:41.720 unclear pulse, and a lot of times it made the 1:23:41.760 --> 1:23:46.480 record sound even better, you know, and more mysterious. Um. 1:23:46.520 --> 1:23:48.960 And certainly the other part of that experience, by the way, 1:23:49.000 --> 1:23:51.680 having your radio in your room as a kid in 1:23:51.680 --> 1:23:56.519 your bedroom, the tubes, yes I said, tubes lit up 1:23:57.000 --> 1:24:00.519 and with dance, certain little shadows on the ceiling of 1:24:00.600 --> 1:24:03.479 your bedroom. All the lights are out, and this thing 1:24:03.479 --> 1:24:06.800 would kind of flicker on the ceiling as you listen 1:24:06.880 --> 1:24:11.519 to some far away station. And sometimes you heard, you know, 1:24:11.600 --> 1:24:15.000 your current rock and roll record or a new record, 1:24:15.360 --> 1:24:19.040 or sometimes you heard weird things like gene Autry, you know, 1:24:19.280 --> 1:24:24.719 or a blues record oh by Lightning Hopkins called Mojo 1:24:24.880 --> 1:24:28.799 hand that hadn't quite made it to your area yet. Um. 1:24:28.880 --> 1:24:31.760 And when these things would happen. You felt like you 1:24:31.800 --> 1:24:36.759 had found a portal to Mars or something that nobody 1:24:36.760 --> 1:24:41.360 else could find. Sorry, I went on, but that was 1:24:41.400 --> 1:24:44.920 my relationship with music. In some ways. It was so 1:24:45.040 --> 1:24:48.240 mysterious and magical because I knew there was a big 1:24:48.280 --> 1:24:50.600 thing out there. I guess that's what I'm saying. I 1:24:50.680 --> 1:24:54.000 knew there was way more than I knew, and I 1:24:54.040 --> 1:24:59.439 was just dying, craving two get to it, to be 1:25:00.120 --> 1:25:03.839 immersed in it, to discover it. Okay. Was this interest 1:25:03.880 --> 1:25:07.600 in music generated by your parents or by siblings, Like 1:25:07.680 --> 1:25:10.560 my parents, they would take us through the young Kids concerts, 1:25:10.600 --> 1:25:12.960 they would play the show tunes. Was this something you 1:25:13.040 --> 1:25:16.240 discovered alone or was this something all your family was 1:25:16.320 --> 1:25:20.920 exposed to? Absolutely my family first. Um, when I was 1:25:21.040 --> 1:25:25.439 quite young. I remember, I think being on vacation is 1:25:26.200 --> 1:25:28.719 you know. So we were probably up at the Poda 1:25:28.760 --> 1:25:33.479 Creek in northern California. It's near Winters, and I'd be 1:25:34.000 --> 1:25:36.160 this be night, maybe they're going to drive to the 1:25:36.200 --> 1:25:38.400 grocery store. But to me it was like taking a 1:25:38.439 --> 1:25:41.800 long trip. I'm sitting between them in the dark, and 1:25:41.880 --> 1:25:46.000 my mom and my dad are harmonizing and they would sing, 1:25:46.120 --> 1:25:49.960 you know, old standards from their day, like by the 1:25:50.040 --> 1:25:53.320 Light of the Silvery Moon. Um. One of the songs 1:25:53.439 --> 1:25:57.040 they sang was baby Face. You know, baby face, you 1:25:57.120 --> 1:25:59.559 got that cute, as did Obey. But they would sing 1:26:00.040 --> 1:26:03.439 add lack you got the keys that right, that was 1:26:03.479 --> 1:26:07.840 their own little Um. They're already in the blues tradition. 1:26:08.160 --> 1:26:12.960 They took something there that they liked and rewrote it. Um. 1:26:13.160 --> 1:26:16.000 But that I discovered they were harmonizing, you know. And 1:26:16.200 --> 1:26:19.360 again I was probably three to four years old and 1:26:19.479 --> 1:26:23.160 asked them, well, why are your voices different? And my 1:26:23.240 --> 1:26:27.080 mom explained that to me. Another very very important thing 1:26:27.080 --> 1:26:30.479 that happened. I was about three and a half. We 1:26:30.640 --> 1:26:33.280 came My mom was one of the parents and also 1:26:33.360 --> 1:26:36.759 what I think a teacher or part time parent teacher 1:26:36.880 --> 1:26:40.400 at preschool nursery school. That's the way she said it 1:26:40.439 --> 1:26:43.280 to me. And we came home in the afternoon from 1:26:44.040 --> 1:26:47.120 one of the days and she sat me down and 1:26:47.200 --> 1:26:50.759 she presented me with a little record record, a record 1:26:51.160 --> 1:26:55.360 yellow record, and she explained to me that the songwriter 1:26:55.520 --> 1:26:59.920 of these songs is Stephen Foster. So she wasn't telling 1:27:00.040 --> 1:27:05.400 me who the singers were who. I really actually don't know. Um, 1:27:05.439 --> 1:27:07.720 it might have been a Little Golden Book or a 1:27:07.720 --> 1:27:11.920 Little Golden Orchestra or whatever. But the songs were Oh 1:27:12.080 --> 1:27:18.040 Susannah and Camptown Races. Do uh Do? She played both sides, 1:27:18.160 --> 1:27:22.760 maybe several times, but again she explained to me the 1:27:22.840 --> 1:27:27.240 song writer of these songs is Stephen Foster, and that 1:27:27.320 --> 1:27:31.040 went in and stayed. I mean, I remember that. I 1:27:31.080 --> 1:27:33.920 can still see myself sitting in that chair and being 1:27:34.240 --> 1:27:39.920 taught about Stephen Foster. And as I've grown, you know, 1:27:40.000 --> 1:27:44.160 I've just find that remarkable that anyone, any parent of 1:27:44.160 --> 1:27:47.360 a kid who obviously loved music, because I was dancing 1:27:47.400 --> 1:27:50.559 around and singing and you know, noticing somebody with a 1:27:50.680 --> 1:27:55.439 drum or a pickle or whatever the piano um and 1:27:55.560 --> 1:27:59.160 wanting to know about it. Telling a person about a 1:27:59.240 --> 1:28:03.840 songwriter at that age is just unusual. And it has 1:28:03.880 --> 1:28:08.160 stayed with me ever since. And I believe even to 1:28:08.280 --> 1:28:11.280 the sort of music that I like, which you know, 1:28:11.320 --> 1:28:15.400 the education probably continued, you know, as time went on, 1:28:15.640 --> 1:28:19.519 but meaning my mother's influence, but the fact that you know, 1:28:19.600 --> 1:28:23.080 Stephen wrote a certain kind of you know, I didn't 1:28:23.080 --> 1:28:28.440 know at the time he was America's first professional songwriter. Um, 1:28:28.560 --> 1:28:31.920 that's pride, a thing. But and also he got screwed 1:28:31.960 --> 1:28:36.360 out of his royalties, became an alcoholic, and died pretty young. 1:28:36.920 --> 1:28:39.800 Well everything there is true, except hopefully for the part 1:28:39.840 --> 1:28:44.320 about dying pretty young, um as far as applied to me. 1:28:45.160 --> 1:28:51.200 But anyway, um, I think even though I grew into 1:28:51.200 --> 1:28:53.600 teenage years and became a what I would call a 1:28:53.720 --> 1:28:58.400 normal rock and roll kid, somehow when it became time 1:28:58.439 --> 1:29:01.360 for me to create my own music, I hear a 1:29:01.439 --> 1:29:04.960 lot of Stephen Foster in what I do, and I 1:29:05.000 --> 1:29:09.519 think that that influence just went in there and stayed 1:29:09.600 --> 1:29:13.880 there and became part of my voice. Another thing that 1:29:14.000 --> 1:29:18.080 was very also very influential is my I'm kind of 1:29:18.080 --> 1:29:22.080 trace backwards, but I think I think this is really important. 1:29:22.120 --> 1:29:24.640 It was the forties. You know, I'm three, four or 1:29:24.680 --> 1:29:29.639 five years old. I'm born in um My mom was 1:29:30.000 --> 1:29:34.559 one of the first folkies. You know. Um obviously her 1:29:34.600 --> 1:29:39.720 politics were liberal left. My dad too. My parents split up, 1:29:39.760 --> 1:29:41.479 by the way, when I was about eight. That's why 1:29:41.479 --> 1:29:44.679 I talked about sitting between them in the car. That's 1:29:44.800 --> 1:29:47.880 that some of the last memories I have that way. 1:29:47.920 --> 1:29:53.000 But anyway, um my mom's so she's a liberal person 1:29:53.120 --> 1:29:56.400 listening to folk music and at some point she starts 1:29:56.439 --> 1:30:01.599 telling me about those guys, like especially Pete Seeger, and 1:30:02.160 --> 1:30:05.479 she was a Pete Seeger freak, And so I became 1:30:05.520 --> 1:30:11.400 a Pete Seeger freak. Before the folks scare, before Tom Dooley, 1:30:11.600 --> 1:30:15.200 Let's say, I was already knowing a lot about Pete 1:30:15.240 --> 1:30:19.200 Seeger and his music, but and and a lot of 1:30:19.240 --> 1:30:22.439 the other artists like Sam Hinton and Burrow Lives and 1:30:23.120 --> 1:30:27.200 uh several other the weavers. My mom would sing Goodnight 1:30:27.240 --> 1:30:29.760 Irene all the time. But I was a kid. I 1:30:29.760 --> 1:30:33.559 didn't have it all historically correct. It was just music. 1:30:34.400 --> 1:30:39.519 But when the folk festival thing finally happened, and I 1:30:39.560 --> 1:30:44.000 will say as a result of the Kingston Trio and 1:30:44.120 --> 1:30:49.360 Tom Dooley. Even though all those old guard folkies hated 1:30:49.360 --> 1:30:54.200 the Kingston Trio, I think because they were successful commercially, 1:30:54.960 --> 1:30:58.400 even though you asked about royalties. By the way, all 1:30:58.400 --> 1:31:03.720 that pezze weren't all at bad um. He was selling records. 1:31:03.760 --> 1:31:08.120 But somehow the old guard folky's hated that Tom Dooley 1:31:08.400 --> 1:31:12.000 by the Kingston Trio was on the jukebox right, And 1:31:12.080 --> 1:31:15.719 so I started to hear from some of the true 1:31:15.720 --> 1:31:18.240 folkey people. My mom actually took me down to get 1:31:18.600 --> 1:31:23.080 folk music guitar lessons at light Bolk Park in Berkeley, right, 1:31:23.680 --> 1:31:27.080 And I remember Barry Olivier, who I consider a very 1:31:27.120 --> 1:31:30.320 influential person on me, but he was in their crowd. 1:31:30.479 --> 1:31:35.040 He's an older person, and he talked about how Tom Dooley, Yeah, 1:31:35.439 --> 1:31:38.960 they put that little pause in there, Tom Dooley, so 1:31:39.080 --> 1:31:40.920 that the guy at the bar would you know, slip 1:31:40.960 --> 1:31:44.960 and follow up his elbow with the hiccup, would bother him. 1:31:45.160 --> 1:31:48.000 And I thought, gee, that had an attitude. Why did 1:31:48.000 --> 1:31:52.639 he say that. Well, anyway, folk music really took off 1:31:52.680 --> 1:31:56.840 after Tom Dooley and they started having folk music festivals. 1:31:57.160 --> 1:32:00.160 The one near me was called the Berkeley Bolk Best 1:32:00.200 --> 1:32:03.920 of All and put on by this same fella, Barry Olivier, 1:32:04.720 --> 1:32:08.759 And all those cats were there, Pete Seeger, uh Sam 1:32:08.840 --> 1:32:15.200 Hinton one year was Lightning Hopkins, um Uh Alan Lomax, 1:32:16.120 --> 1:32:21.320 uh Ewan McCall, Peggy Seeger, you know, uh, Jesse Fuller, 1:32:21.400 --> 1:32:24.679 all these people, and Pete of course was the sort 1:32:24.720 --> 1:32:29.960 of un un anointed god of the whole thing. Also, 1:32:30.720 --> 1:32:33.519 he's the best entertainer I ever saw. And it's the 1:32:33.560 --> 1:32:37.720 most blessed experience if you could have ever been in 1:32:37.800 --> 1:32:42.280 and I've seen Frank and Sammy and Elvis and Dino 1:32:42.800 --> 1:32:45.160 and you know all that stuff. And uh, I've seen 1:32:45.160 --> 1:32:48.599 Wayne on Wayne Newton on TV. I mean that they 1:32:48.600 --> 1:32:51.840 call that entertainers, you know, the Vegas kind of thing. 1:32:52.200 --> 1:32:56.240 But what Pete did was engaged in entire audience into 1:32:56.280 --> 1:32:58.800 that world and make them part of it. And you 1:32:58.880 --> 1:33:04.360 left out of there like had been in church. Um so, yes, 1:33:04.520 --> 1:33:14.400 you asked me who was influential? Yeah, my mom. So 1:33:14.640 --> 1:33:16.479 you were born in fourty five. I was born in 1:33:17.200 --> 1:33:20.799 fifty three, and it was different because I certainly remember 1:33:20.840 --> 1:33:23.840 the folk boom. I certainly remember the nylon string guitars, 1:33:24.360 --> 1:33:28.479 taken lessons from somebody in the neighborhood, etcetera. But for 1:33:28.680 --> 1:33:33.240 my generation, it was when the Beatles broke that everybody 1:33:33.280 --> 1:33:38.040 got an electric guitar and everybody formed bands. You're older, 1:33:38.520 --> 1:33:42.040 when did you start to perform? What music were you 1:33:42.240 --> 1:33:45.439 doing and what was it like when the Beatles hit? 1:33:45.640 --> 1:33:48.360 Can I do that as a two parter? Do it? However? 1:33:48.400 --> 1:33:54.040 You want to? Sure? Well, because because of the folk 1:33:54.160 --> 1:33:59.000 people I literally I'm talking about in the fifth and 1:33:59.200 --> 1:34:03.960 sixth grade, but usually particularly in the sixth grade, I 1:34:04.040 --> 1:34:09.280 started organizing a few of the other kids, boys and girls, 1:34:09.320 --> 1:34:11.320 and I don't think it was more than five of us. 1:34:11.439 --> 1:34:16.559 But um, well, first before that, about a year before that, 1:34:16.680 --> 1:34:19.200 I had partnered with my best friend, I Felt, a 1:34:19.280 --> 1:34:24.120 kid named Bob Carlton. We were pantomiming Stan Freeberg records. 1:34:24.520 --> 1:34:27.040 They were, you know, these were these comedy bits that 1:34:27.120 --> 1:34:30.719 he he made fun of Heartbreak Hotel, or he made 1:34:30.720 --> 1:34:34.800 fun of the song d O by um Harry Belafonte. 1:34:34.960 --> 1:34:37.559 So we would dress up in little costumes and stand 1:34:37.600 --> 1:34:41.280 in front of the school class and just pantomime them. 1:34:41.280 --> 1:34:43.799 We we didn't write anything, and we didn't say anything. 1:34:43.880 --> 1:34:46.880 Just our lips moved our you know, we held a microphone. 1:34:47.360 --> 1:34:49.400 So I was already getting used to the idea of 1:34:49.439 --> 1:34:52.679 standing in front of an audience. In the sixth grade. 1:34:52.760 --> 1:34:56.400 Kind of halfway through, I organized a group of kids 1:34:56.520 --> 1:34:59.880 and we had bongos and shakers and stuff. Nobody could 1:35:00.000 --> 1:35:04.200 actually play a real instrument, but we were doing banana 1:35:04.240 --> 1:35:09.320 boat song or story whatever it's the real name, deo um, 1:35:09.360 --> 1:35:12.040 maybe a couple other of those sort of clips. So 1:35:12.160 --> 1:35:17.120 we folk songs and mostly just singing all right. Um. 1:35:17.520 --> 1:35:19.680 Seventh eighth grade, I think it's right in there. I 1:35:19.800 --> 1:35:24.320 take those begin I've already playing guitar. I think I 1:35:24.400 --> 1:35:28.679 was in the seventh grade. I talked my mom into 1:35:28.720 --> 1:35:33.120 help me get a Seares electric guitar out of the 1:35:33.160 --> 1:35:37.320 catalog with my paper route money. And so it takes me, 1:35:37.840 --> 1:35:41.080 you know, ten months to pay off eight dollars. It's 1:35:41.120 --> 1:35:46.599 eighty dollars. It's thirty for a guitar, an am, and 1:35:46.720 --> 1:35:52.280 over the time of eight ten months, it's eight dollars interest. Um, 1:35:52.280 --> 1:35:55.000 But she co signs, so I get to have the 1:35:55.080 --> 1:35:59.080 thing now, you know, with eight months in a kid's life. 1:35:59.080 --> 1:36:02.240 Oh my god, an I start on that. So I'm 1:36:02.280 --> 1:36:05.280 in both worlds. I've got electric guitar, and of course 1:36:05.320 --> 1:36:10.240 I'm seeing the people from the fifties Elvis. Uh. There 1:36:10.280 --> 1:36:12.840 was a song called Honky Talk by Bill Dogg that 1:36:12.960 --> 1:36:17.479 was way over my pay grade. Um. The first song 1:36:17.520 --> 1:36:20.599 that I remember on that electric guitar there is pre Beatles, 1:36:20.640 --> 1:36:25.439 of course, was that I sounded like something was Endless 1:36:25.439 --> 1:36:30.559 Sleep by Jody Reynolds. I remember on on Endless Sleep 1:36:30.640 --> 1:36:33.479 by Jody was a big hit record, and it was 1:36:33.560 --> 1:36:37.360 a it was a suicide record, you might say, well, 1:36:37.400 --> 1:36:40.559 except it has a happy ending. But um it's called 1:36:40.680 --> 1:36:44.040 endless sleep. But anyway, they're using a whammy bar to 1:36:44.160 --> 1:36:46.880 make a lower note become a higher note. And so 1:36:47.040 --> 1:36:51.200 with that sense of going bom bom bom, boom boon't 1:36:51.240 --> 1:36:53.880 like that, but it's a guitar doing this. The way 1:36:53.880 --> 1:36:57.800 I mimic that with my electric guitar with my amp 1:36:57.880 --> 1:37:01.120 you know, turned up was to him are on the chord. 1:37:01.240 --> 1:37:03.519 I kind of just discovered it myself. I could go. 1:37:04.240 --> 1:37:10.080 It's an actual technique that especially lead guitar players, especially 1:37:10.120 --> 1:37:13.320 in the eighties. Eddie van Halen people like that used 1:37:13.320 --> 1:37:15.800 this technique to hammer on. But I kind of discovered 1:37:15.840 --> 1:37:19.639 it to mimic this song I love called Endless Sleep. 1:37:19.720 --> 1:37:24.519 So I could play these chords. Um enough, there were 1:37:24.560 --> 1:37:26.599 three chords in this song, and I figured out those 1:37:26.640 --> 1:37:30.559 three chords from a burl Ives songbook, by the way, 1:37:31.600 --> 1:37:35.719 and played could play that song all the way through 1:37:35.840 --> 1:37:38.400 with nobody else around, you know, did it like during 1:37:38.680 --> 1:37:42.080 lunchtime from school. I'd rushed home and try and play 1:37:42.120 --> 1:37:43.760 that like and I would just as soon as I 1:37:43.800 --> 1:37:46.200 finish it, I just started again. That probably played six 1:37:46.240 --> 1:37:48.160 times in a row, singing as loud as I I 1:37:48.240 --> 1:37:52.760 wasn't shy because there was nobody home right um, and 1:37:52.800 --> 1:37:57.479 so by n fifty nine, towards the end of my 1:37:58.479 --> 1:38:03.360 eighth grade, I had a wonderful music teacher named Mrs Stark, 1:38:03.880 --> 1:38:05.840 I think in seventh and eighth grade. By now I'm 1:38:05.880 --> 1:38:09.760 going to junior high. And she let me come into 1:38:09.840 --> 1:38:13.120 her room after school and just bang on the piano. 1:38:14.080 --> 1:38:16.720 And I started doing that every day. Uh. And I 1:38:16.800 --> 1:38:18.720 knew a little boogie woggie and I was playing in 1:38:18.760 --> 1:38:22.120 wrong keys like all black keys, matter of fact, f 1:38:22.320 --> 1:38:25.519 sharp um. But she let me do it, and that 1:38:25.680 --> 1:38:29.000 her room. The door to her room was right at 1:38:29.040 --> 1:38:32.120 the It was right by the stairs where you went 1:38:32.200 --> 1:38:35.920 down to the boys and girls gym, so any of 1:38:35.920 --> 1:38:39.479 the after school stuff, everybody had to pass by there. 1:38:39.960 --> 1:38:42.519 So pretty soon there was a crowd of twenty people 1:38:43.240 --> 1:38:47.559 sitting there at that piano watching John play do you 1:38:47.560 --> 1:38:51.000 want to Dance? Uh? God, what was Do you Want 1:38:51.000 --> 1:38:52.760 to Dance? Was when I knew all of it could 1:38:52.760 --> 1:38:56.599 play on the piano. Um, right now I can't think 1:38:56.640 --> 1:38:59.040 of the other ones, but you know, it doesn't matter anything. 1:38:59.080 --> 1:39:02.000 I could, Oh, Hollo Gully, I could play Holly Gully 1:39:02.160 --> 1:39:07.120 really loud and sing it pretty good too. Eventually, Uh, 1:39:07.280 --> 1:39:11.080 Doug Clifford and I linked up at school because he 1:39:11.120 --> 1:39:15.680 was at the junior high And sometime after that, uh 1:39:15.920 --> 1:39:21.000 Stu Cook, who became the bass player in Credence. Uh, 1:39:21.040 --> 1:39:23.800 we linked up and we formed a little band called 1:39:23.840 --> 1:39:28.280 the Blue Velvets that mainly we were going to be instrumental, 1:39:29.000 --> 1:39:31.120 but we you know, we were a band. It's like 1:39:31.520 --> 1:39:34.679 blood brothers. We have this thing and we probably could 1:39:34.760 --> 1:39:39.200 play fIF twenty instrumentals, the like of which were Dwayne Eddie, 1:39:39.280 --> 1:39:42.640 the Ventures and Tall Cool One by the Whalers. And 1:39:43.160 --> 1:39:46.560 you know that was an era of rock and roll instrumentals. 1:39:47.160 --> 1:39:51.639 Um BENSI I learned how to play honky talk um again. 1:39:51.680 --> 1:39:54.680 I'm sure in those days I had none of the 1:39:54.720 --> 1:39:59.280 sophistication of Billy Butler, who was the guitar player. UM, 1:39:59.720 --> 1:40:02.640 but sure appreciated. I mean, that's still one of the 1:40:02.640 --> 1:40:07.360 best records ever made. Uh in you know my negative Woods. Anyway, 1:40:07.640 --> 1:40:11.720 and so by the time the Beatles came, Uh, I 1:40:11.720 --> 1:40:14.200 started hearing the Beatles at the end of my senior 1:40:14.240 --> 1:40:19.680 year of high school. UM. I was miss hearing that 1:40:19.960 --> 1:40:26.120 they were playing a song called Please Please Me, and 1:40:26.200 --> 1:40:28.920 I thought It was by the Shields, and they played 1:40:28.920 --> 1:40:32.320 it in heavy rotation as a pick of the week 1:40:32.479 --> 1:40:34.680 or whatever, and I would hear it drive. I was 1:40:34.760 --> 1:40:37.040 driving in my car on my way every day for 1:40:37.080 --> 1:40:42.800 about a week. It's like May of sixty three, and 1:40:43.960 --> 1:40:46.000 you know, I liked it. I said, hey, wow, those 1:40:46.000 --> 1:40:48.479 Shields are pretty cool. You know. I knew there was 1:40:48.520 --> 1:40:51.240 some old band that had I think you cheated, you lied, 1:40:51.840 --> 1:40:55.240 but that's what I was hearing. Then for some reason, 1:40:56.400 --> 1:40:58.120 I didn't know they had turned the record over, but 1:40:58.160 --> 1:41:01.639 they started playing another record the Shields. It was called 1:41:01.680 --> 1:41:04.639 from Me to You, and that was so cool. I said, 1:41:04.640 --> 1:41:07.960 oh my god, who are these guys? You know, this 1:41:08.040 --> 1:41:11.240 is really great. And then after two weeks they went 1:41:11.280 --> 1:41:14.400 away and I didn't hear any more about it until 1:41:15.400 --> 1:41:18.680 somewhere around December. I read in Time magazine there was 1:41:18.720 --> 1:41:22.839 this band in England and they had played some concert 1:41:22.920 --> 1:41:25.519 for the Queen. I mean, that was the way it 1:41:25.520 --> 1:41:28.920 all came together. And one of the band members said, um, 1:41:29.880 --> 1:41:32.960 you people in the cheap seats just clap your hands 1:41:33.120 --> 1:41:36.479 and the rest of you rattled your jewels, and I, 1:41:36.600 --> 1:41:40.680 you know, it was endearing already that these guys were 1:41:40.720 --> 1:41:43.760 working whoever the Beatles were. I said, hey, I saw 1:41:44.080 --> 1:41:48.000 a title that I reckon. That's those guys, wow, you know, 1:41:48.040 --> 1:41:50.559 And they were I think they were in that that 1:41:50.760 --> 1:41:53.720 stairway picture, you know, in the stairway that we're all 1:41:53.760 --> 1:41:56.799 wearing black, and they just looked it was all together. 1:41:56.960 --> 1:42:00.960 It was a group, you know, just but not our fashion, 1:42:01.320 --> 1:42:05.400 this whole different look. While the rest of the world 1:42:05.439 --> 1:42:07.880 found out about it must have been a matter of 1:42:07.920 --> 1:42:10.479 weeks when suddenly you were here and I want to 1:42:10.479 --> 1:42:14.120 hold your hand, and it uh the way I the 1:42:14.160 --> 1:42:16.800 way I sometimes say it is when we were when 1:42:17.000 --> 1:42:20.720 we were seniors in high school at Elsevito High, we 1:42:20.720 --> 1:42:24.000 were the only band in the school. The next year 1:42:24.200 --> 1:42:30.519 there were a hundred bands. Also, not long thereafter, we 1:42:30.560 --> 1:42:33.840 have the famous San Francisco scene, which starts to you know, 1:42:33.920 --> 1:42:37.000 percolate in the mid sixties, and by time we hit 1:42:37.080 --> 1:42:41.479 the sixties, seven Jefferson Airplane has a hit that's across 1:42:41.840 --> 1:42:44.120 the river from you. But to what degree did you 1:42:44.200 --> 1:42:46.920 feel part of that scene? And did you partake of 1:42:47.000 --> 1:42:49.600 that scene? Go to the film or whatever. It was 1:42:49.640 --> 1:42:55.680 all mixed up together. Um, the politics or philosophy of 1:42:55.800 --> 1:43:01.360 young people, the war Vietnam, l b J being the 1:43:01.479 --> 1:43:04.679 first Nixon, then lb excuse me, lb J, then Nixon. 1:43:04.760 --> 1:43:08.200 But at this time it was lb J and that war, 1:43:08.520 --> 1:43:13.040 you know, sixty s or so and the music and 1:43:13.120 --> 1:43:17.000 at some I mean you, I'm trying to give you 1:43:17.040 --> 1:43:21.840 the first blush of this thing. There were protesters protesting 1:43:22.640 --> 1:43:26.360 the war. Uh. Actually before that, there had been this 1:43:26.400 --> 1:43:29.719 thing on the cal campus cal Berkeley called the free 1:43:29.760 --> 1:43:34.760 speech Movement and Mario Savio and they wanted the right 1:43:34.880 --> 1:43:36.920 to be able to say the F bomb. And I'm 1:43:36.920 --> 1:43:39.439 not gonna say it here because even though I say 1:43:39.479 --> 1:43:42.960 it all the time, and I regretted even around my 1:43:43.080 --> 1:43:47.840 kids who are adults. Um, I try not to say 1:43:47.880 --> 1:43:51.559 I say it when I I'm agitated, but I try 1:43:51.640 --> 1:43:54.680 to not just say it as an affectation. I don't 1:43:54.680 --> 1:43:56.880 know if that makes any sense to you. But so 1:43:56.960 --> 1:44:01.720 that was sort of a short lived political movement, the 1:44:01.840 --> 1:44:05.640 very speech movement. It's kind of silly, but all the 1:44:05.720 --> 1:44:09.280 mechanics were in place for what later became the anti 1:44:09.360 --> 1:44:12.760 war movement. But the funny thing was, in the beginning 1:44:13.200 --> 1:44:16.479 the anti war movement was was a bit messed up. 1:44:17.040 --> 1:44:21.160 I know that, Um, there was this there was gonna 1:44:21.200 --> 1:44:24.559 be a troop train go by somewhere on the tracks 1:44:25.320 --> 1:44:28.519 down in the lower part of Berkeley and Oakland, and 1:44:28.560 --> 1:44:32.080 of all people, the Hell's Angels were there. But there 1:44:32.120 --> 1:44:33.920 were you know, there were a few people that were 1:44:33.920 --> 1:44:38.479 trying to stop the train, and then the Hell's Angels 1:44:38.479 --> 1:44:42.960 were actually acting like true blooded Americans in the John 1:44:42.960 --> 1:44:47.720 Wayne uh songbook and helped keep the train moving. You know. 1:44:48.200 --> 1:44:50.800 It was just a strange thing. Of course, later the 1:44:50.800 --> 1:44:55.960 Hell's Angels became what's the word, They had enough cred that, uh, 1:44:56.040 --> 1:44:59.560 they were now seen as liberals where they were unfortunately 1:45:00.080 --> 1:45:04.559 are to be bodyguards at Altamont, but eventually kind of 1:45:04.600 --> 1:45:08.599 seen as criminals. And the whole thing was actually pretty scummy, 1:45:08.760 --> 1:45:13.040 you know, pretty bad um. And that's just a blip 1:45:13.040 --> 1:45:17.200 on the radar to leading up to the music I had. 1:45:17.320 --> 1:45:22.000 I had only vaguely heard about something happening in Golden 1:45:22.000 --> 1:45:25.760 Gate Park and that there was musicians and music over there, 1:45:25.800 --> 1:45:31.000 and it kind of it felt like it was amateurish um. 1:45:31.040 --> 1:45:35.400 But then by nineteen sixty seven, at least from me, 1:45:36.520 --> 1:45:39.760 there was a local radio station called k mp X. 1:45:40.280 --> 1:45:46.080 It eventually became known as the world's first underground video 1:45:46.160 --> 1:45:50.120 station and lo and behold, it was Tom Donahue who 1:45:50.200 --> 1:45:52.320 was the main guy. He had He had been a 1:45:52.360 --> 1:45:55.760 normal rock and roll DJ on k y A, a 1:45:55.840 --> 1:46:00.120 top forty station in the Bay Area. Tom Donahue and 1:46:00.320 --> 1:46:04.720 uh Mitchell, Bob Mitchell, Mitchell and Donahue were kind of 1:46:04.760 --> 1:46:07.680 the kings of the rock and roll in Bay the 1:46:07.720 --> 1:46:10.920 Bay Area, you know, the normal place. And I was 1:46:10.960 --> 1:46:13.840 getting a little older, you know, rock was getting a 1:46:13.840 --> 1:46:17.160 little older, and now there was just underground thing that 1:46:17.280 --> 1:46:20.519 was really cool because you know, there was a lot 1:46:20.560 --> 1:46:24.320 of music that was perhaps not played on the rock, 1:46:24.479 --> 1:46:27.920 the top forty station, or maybe not played right away. 1:46:27.960 --> 1:46:30.559 And I'm talking about what we kind of called stacks 1:46:30.680 --> 1:46:33.400 music or soul music. And I was, of course, I 1:46:33.400 --> 1:46:36.080 always listened to the black station, the R and B station, 1:46:36.640 --> 1:46:40.280 and you heard much of the music that made it 1:46:40.400 --> 1:46:42.760 later into the top forty you would hear it on 1:46:42.800 --> 1:46:45.519 the R and B station. First. I'm talking about Otis 1:46:45.560 --> 1:46:50.320 Redding and Eddie Floyd. As far as the San Francisco scene, 1:46:51.400 --> 1:46:55.720 it starts to it starts to become more noticed for 1:46:55.800 --> 1:46:58.839 at least for me, when when one of the Stacks artists, 1:46:59.720 --> 1:47:02.160 and certainly it was there that you started to hear 1:47:03.720 --> 1:47:09.759 Grateful Dead, Quicksilver, the Airplane, you know, the San Francisco bands, 1:47:10.720 --> 1:47:16.400 and that was it was quite clearly also politically involved 1:47:16.439 --> 1:47:21.040 with what young people were feeling at the time. There 1:47:21.120 --> 1:47:25.720 was there was there was no real party, you know, 1:47:25.840 --> 1:47:29.479 it was that organized quite that way. I think the 1:47:29.560 --> 1:47:32.960 real thing that was that everyone had in common is 1:47:33.000 --> 1:47:35.599 that they were young, uh, and it was just a 1:47:35.640 --> 1:47:40.439 different mindset obviously than let's say L. B. J or 1:47:40.520 --> 1:47:44.760 Hubert Humphrey or any of the other old people you 1:47:44.800 --> 1:47:49.360 know that we were looking at and the music because 1:47:49.439 --> 1:47:55.720 it was even more um, even more free form than 1:47:55.840 --> 1:47:58.240 rock and roll. You know, rock and roll was sort 1:47:58.240 --> 1:48:01.639 of on the top forty stations, and this was kind 1:48:01.640 --> 1:48:04.599 of a new thing that was. I mean, we loved 1:48:04.840 --> 1:48:07.880 at that place. We loved the records by Stas, We 1:48:08.000 --> 1:48:12.320 loved Van Morrison, you know, people that kind of that 1:48:12.360 --> 1:48:15.880 blues based rock. But then there was this other new 1:48:15.960 --> 1:48:21.160 thing coming in, particularly from San Francisco bands, and that 1:48:21.360 --> 1:48:23.920 was getting played on k mp X. And to what 1:48:24.080 --> 1:48:26.680 degree were you into that. Were you more of a 1:48:26.800 --> 1:48:30.920 roots rocker or were you buying those records, listening to 1:48:30.960 --> 1:48:35.960 those records, doing drugs, going on trips. The funny thing was, well, 1:48:36.000 --> 1:48:40.240 I went on I went on active duty for the military, 1:48:40.280 --> 1:48:45.439 for the Army in late January of nineteen sixty seven. 1:48:45.640 --> 1:48:47.800 Before you tell us this story, how did you end 1:48:47.880 --> 1:48:51.320 up going into the military, because that was our worst fear. Yes, 1:48:51.360 --> 1:48:56.879 but I got drafted. I got drafted in early nineteen 1:48:57.479 --> 1:49:03.920 sixty six. Um, do you want to hear that story? Yes, 1:49:04.479 --> 1:49:09.920 every every young person, every young male, I guess, was 1:49:10.960 --> 1:49:18.720 pretty much uh having trepidation, trepidation about being drafted. Um. 1:49:18.880 --> 1:49:21.120 There was this war in Vietnam that none of us 1:49:21.200 --> 1:49:25.720 knew much about, and strangely, there had been this kind 1:49:25.760 --> 1:49:33.200 of surprise announcement right at the end of August. On 1:49:33.439 --> 1:49:37.400 August thirty one, who I heard. I heard the announcement 1:49:37.439 --> 1:49:40.960 on the radio at about eleven thirty twelve o'clock in 1:49:41.000 --> 1:49:44.600 the morning, and it said, all of you who have 1:49:45.479 --> 1:49:51.120 draft deferments because of various reasons, will now not have 1:49:51.760 --> 1:49:56.840 draft deferments, and you will all be eligible for the 1:49:56.960 --> 1:50:06.439 draft after August at the first nineteen unless you happen 1:50:06.479 --> 1:50:10.759 to be married. And I was getting married in five days, 1:50:12.160 --> 1:50:16.240 and I remember thinking for five minutes or something, Wow, 1:50:17.040 --> 1:50:19.960 maybe I should go get married now up in Reno 1:50:20.160 --> 1:50:23.759 or something. But you know, I kind of it almost 1:50:23.760 --> 1:50:28.720 felt like that was a travesty to kind of to 1:50:30.240 --> 1:50:35.040 let this affect something as beautiful as a marriage, right, uh, deferment. 1:50:35.160 --> 1:50:38.240 And I got a draft notice and that was giving 1:50:38.240 --> 1:50:41.680 me a certain time that I was to report, and 1:50:41.760 --> 1:50:44.840 I got pretty agitated about all that. I actually went 1:50:44.880 --> 1:50:48.280 down to the draft board and this young lady who 1:50:48.320 --> 1:50:54.439 was probably twenty one. You know, but you're almost seeing 1:50:55.000 --> 1:50:58.680 the wicked witch from the Wizard of Oz talking to you, 1:50:58.800 --> 1:51:02.160 because you know they're on the what's the word there 1:51:02.160 --> 1:51:06.479 in the untouchable seats and your own situation is much worse. 1:51:07.120 --> 1:51:10.800 And she says something like, well, if your wife could 1:51:10.840 --> 1:51:16.439 become come pregnant before and I'm going you mean become 1:51:16.479 --> 1:51:24.280 pregnant as of yesterday. So none of that was working. Um, 1:51:24.360 --> 1:51:27.679 And finally, what what happened, I was I was pretty 1:51:27.720 --> 1:51:32.040 agitated about going in right away, going into the regular army. 1:51:32.680 --> 1:51:36.200 And I poked around and and you know, the word 1:51:36.720 --> 1:51:40.080 went to all the National Guards and called people and 1:51:40.160 --> 1:51:45.679 all the rest, and finally found an army reserve unit 1:51:46.600 --> 1:51:51.040 that I was able to get into. And the truth 1:51:51.080 --> 1:51:55.599 of the matter, matter is I believe my now wife, 1:51:55.680 --> 1:51:59.280 young wife had called that place and the fella that 1:51:59.520 --> 1:52:03.639 was the sergeant in charge of that unit said something, 1:52:04.200 --> 1:52:06.800 you just tell him to get on down here and 1:52:06.840 --> 1:52:09.160 we'll sign him up, and she had you know, she 1:52:09.240 --> 1:52:12.800 had heard something in her voice. I've always thought that, 1:52:12.840 --> 1:52:14.599 you know, if I had a called, he probably would 1:52:14.640 --> 1:52:17.280 have said, you get down here, buddy, and you know 1:52:17.880 --> 1:52:21.439 they're going to Vietnam. Um. So that was how I 1:52:21.520 --> 1:52:25.840 got into the Army reserves, which meant I still had 1:52:25.880 --> 1:52:29.599 an obligation for active duty, and I was looking at 1:52:29.680 --> 1:52:34.760 probably six years of total of service, meaning once a 1:52:34.800 --> 1:52:40.400 month meetings, once once a month, weekends, and also every 1:52:40.439 --> 1:52:45.639 summer two weeks worth of UH boot camp all over again, 1:52:45.680 --> 1:52:49.120 I guess you'd say. So it turned out that my 1:52:49.240 --> 1:52:55.120 active duty came up in January of sixty seven. But 1:52:55.240 --> 1:52:58.000 the guys in what I was musically what the guys 1:52:58.360 --> 1:53:01.040 what I was getting to is we travel on these 1:53:01.080 --> 1:53:06.680 long um. I was already going to Army meetings by 1:53:06.680 --> 1:53:10.280 the way, reserve meetings, and sometimes we would be three 1:53:10.680 --> 1:53:14.080 miles away playing a show on on a Friday night 1:53:14.520 --> 1:53:17.479 and have to get back to my home so that 1:53:17.560 --> 1:53:20.880 I could be at seven o'clock um in the morning 1:53:21.640 --> 1:53:25.439 Army Reserve meeting, and a lot of times on the 1:53:25.520 --> 1:53:27.960 way back, I was talking to the guys about some 1:53:28.040 --> 1:53:31.920 of these records I had, and they were, um, some 1:53:32.040 --> 1:53:34.840 of them were available. They were it was through our 1:53:34.880 --> 1:53:37.960 Holy Records, but it didn't say our Holy. It said 1:53:38.000 --> 1:53:42.680 something like old time classics, things like that. And I 1:53:42.760 --> 1:53:46.800 had these copies of tracks I had never heard before 1:53:46.840 --> 1:53:50.440 in my life, one of which was rolling in Tumbling 1:53:51.160 --> 1:53:55.719 by I think it was baby Face Leroy was actually 1:53:55.760 --> 1:53:58.000 I didn't find out untill later that that actually was 1:53:58.080 --> 1:54:02.439 Mighty Waters, but they contry actually he was recording somewhere 1:54:02.479 --> 1:54:04.760 else where he wasn't supposed to be, so they named 1:54:04.760 --> 1:54:09.439 the track after the artist. After the drummer. Um, I 1:54:09.520 --> 1:54:12.240 heard an old song called Honey, take a whiff on Me, 1:54:13.040 --> 1:54:15.960 A lot of old blues things, and I would tell 1:54:16.000 --> 1:54:18.360 the guys about them, and somehow I think I had 1:54:18.360 --> 1:54:21.759 a little recorder. I was able to play stuff back 1:54:21.800 --> 1:54:25.679 in this old Volkswagen that we would have a van 1:54:25.840 --> 1:54:28.600 that we would travel in. So anyway, there it was 1:54:28.640 --> 1:54:33.640 almost like before active duty and after active duty. So 1:54:33.680 --> 1:54:37.480 I was telling the guys about this music four or 1:54:37.480 --> 1:54:40.600 five months and then I went on active duty. By 1:54:40.640 --> 1:54:43.000 time I came back, they were telling me about this 1:54:43.200 --> 1:54:45.880 radio station that was playing all these things, you know, 1:54:46.000 --> 1:54:49.440 and I, oh, cool, Yeah, that was exactly what, you know, 1:54:49.520 --> 1:54:54.240 the the touchstone you might say, of the place. And 1:54:54.320 --> 1:54:57.440 so now you could tune into a radio station and 1:54:57.920 --> 1:55:00.200 hear all this stuff. I was talking about a lot 1:55:00.240 --> 1:55:03.480 of other groovy stuff. And of course the local bands 1:55:03.520 --> 1:55:07.720 were also getting played. So that kind of for the 1:55:07.880 --> 1:55:11.520 for the pilgrims that joined the Faithful, that sort of 1:55:11.560 --> 1:55:15.280 became the altar, the place where you started listening to 1:55:16.840 --> 1:55:21.200 more often than not, because you're gonna be surprised, you know, 1:55:21.600 --> 1:55:23.920 on a top board the station you sort of had 1:55:23.960 --> 1:55:28.080 the way wade your way through the cow sills and 1:55:28.120 --> 1:55:31.440 all the you know, I mean pop music in the middle, 1:55:31.760 --> 1:55:35.400 you know, centrist, if you're gonna use political terms, it's centrist, 1:55:36.000 --> 1:55:39.440 kind of sappy, but it's vanilla, and the most people 1:55:39.560 --> 1:55:42.840 like that. And then there's that small percentage it might 1:55:42.880 --> 1:55:45.040 be ten pc it's on I'm talking about on the 1:55:45.040 --> 1:55:49.040 pop station that's really sort of edgy, and even the 1:55:49.040 --> 1:55:52.920 censers like some of that, and they can't believe how 1:55:52.960 --> 1:55:55.720 great it is once once they get in the mood 1:55:56.600 --> 1:55:59.920 um and that stuff. You know, the Beatles where they 1:56:00.040 --> 1:56:02.240 in the beginning, and so was Alvis at the beginning 1:56:02.240 --> 1:56:05.360 of their careers. I mean, and then there came a 1:56:05.400 --> 1:56:09.320 time when in the Bay Area all these bands like 1:56:09.880 --> 1:56:13.800 Big Brother and the Airplane and even the Dead or 1:56:13.840 --> 1:56:16.880 a moment, you know, they were that edgy thing that 1:56:17.000 --> 1:56:18.800 was just too far out for the you know, that 1:56:18.840 --> 1:56:21.280 middle of vanilla place. But anyway that was it was 1:56:21.520 --> 1:56:26.000 a a wonderful It was almost like the beginning of 1:56:26.080 --> 1:56:29.720 rock and roll in nineteen all over again. Here it 1:56:29.800 --> 1:56:33.400 was a nineteen sixty seven with k mp X sort 1:56:33.440 --> 1:56:38.360 of bringing clearly into focus this way of thinking, which 1:56:38.400 --> 1:56:42.640 I think is part of it, um and this way 1:56:42.680 --> 1:56:45.440 of listening to music and a certain kind of music 1:56:46.120 --> 1:56:49.440 that was cool, and some were even more edgy than cool, 1:56:49.520 --> 1:56:51.680 you know. There it took a while to kind of 1:56:52.640 --> 1:56:55.520 get out there with those you know, with those people, 1:56:55.600 --> 1:57:00.200 but eventually that was brought into it. You know. At 1:57:00.200 --> 1:57:02.240 the same time some of the shows we were doing 1:57:02.280 --> 1:57:05.400 that we're late, we'd we'd come home listening to Wolfman 1:57:05.560 --> 1:57:09.960 Jack and during the middle sixties there he was definitely 1:57:10.000 --> 1:57:13.440 in that same place. I don't know that I don't 1:57:13.440 --> 1:57:17.640 think there was one word about politics. Um, but wolf 1:57:17.640 --> 1:57:22.280 Man jack was definitely cool. And the music, um, I 1:57:22.760 --> 1:57:25.240 just spoke for itself. And that's that's where I heard 1:57:25.560 --> 1:57:30.880 things like Mistake Eyes or that wonderful Freddie Scott record 1:57:30.920 --> 1:57:34.560 and it I think it's called are You Lonely for Me? Baby? 1:57:34.600 --> 1:57:38.200 But all I remember is it's my last bus to Jacksonville. 1:57:38.280 --> 1:57:43.200 Whatever became a a mainstream hit. But I first heard 1:57:43.280 --> 1:57:53.080 stuff like that on Wolfman. Okay, when was the first 1:57:53.080 --> 1:57:55.280 time you heard yourself on the radio And what was 1:57:55.320 --> 1:58:01.760 that experience? Like, it's a lot earlier than you might think. Um, 1:58:01.840 --> 1:58:08.600 we the Blue Velvets. That was that trio of Doug 1:58:08.640 --> 1:58:13.920 and Stu and I uh. In junior high school. We 1:58:13.920 --> 1:58:18.880 we got adopted by our local boys club, which was 1:58:19.160 --> 1:58:22.440 really half a block away from our junior high school. 1:58:22.520 --> 1:58:26.520 It was right there. And this wonderful man named Bob. 1:58:26.600 --> 1:58:30.200 And I confess that I've looked for his name and 1:58:30.200 --> 1:58:33.640 tried to google. You know that Bob. Here's another Bob 1:58:33.760 --> 1:58:36.520 by the way, that person that was with the Del 1:58:36.600 --> 1:58:42.160 Crito Boys Club in nine And you know, I've never 1:58:42.200 --> 1:58:46.320 been able to track down his full name, his last name, 1:58:46.800 --> 1:58:51.400 but he adopted us. Um. I mean, now it kind 1:58:51.400 --> 1:58:54.000 of makes more sense, but at the time I was 1:58:54.080 --> 1:58:57.600 just a kid fourteen years old with a paper out 1:58:57.640 --> 1:59:01.240 with two of my musical friends. We had this, you know, 1:59:01.360 --> 1:59:06.640 we considered ourselves a little little amateur band, um, and 1:59:06.680 --> 1:59:10.480 we were a rock and roll band. And he adopted 1:59:10.600 --> 1:59:14.680 us to go represent our boys club and play in 1:59:14.720 --> 1:59:19.240 these get togethers with all the other boys clubs, you know, 1:59:19.280 --> 1:59:24.120 like a Saturday on into evening type festival. And it 1:59:24.200 --> 1:59:27.720 was the most wonderful thing because at that very early age, 1:59:27.800 --> 1:59:32.000 we were being presented as something in a white shirt 1:59:32.080 --> 1:59:34.560 with a I think that was called a continental tie 1:59:34.840 --> 1:59:38.280 that that, you know, and made us look finished. I 1:59:38.320 --> 1:59:41.080 think we were all allowed to just have any We 1:59:41.080 --> 1:59:43.720 didn't have pants because that was too expensive, so we 1:59:43.760 --> 1:59:46.880 had each had some kind of black pants and some 1:59:46.960 --> 1:59:49.240 kind of we didn't there were no beatle boots yet, 1:59:49.240 --> 1:59:53.040 but we weren't quite that uniform. We were kids, but 1:59:53.200 --> 1:59:57.959 we were being presented and treated as if we mattered 1:59:58.120 --> 2:00:01.240 like like that. It was legitimate, and you know, we'd 2:00:01.280 --> 2:00:04.440 go play a couple of songs. We might play Walk 2:00:04.480 --> 2:00:08.640 Don't Run, or we might play an original one of 2:00:08.680 --> 2:00:12.480 the songs. I had written as an instrumental, and Bob 2:00:13.200 --> 2:00:15.280 would drive us there and talk to us. You know. 2:00:15.360 --> 2:00:18.040 We had the whole well, the piano was there. It 2:00:18.200 --> 2:00:24.640 was drums, guitar and piano was the instrumentation, and uh 2:00:24.840 --> 2:00:26.880 Doug had a few drums and I had my little 2:00:26.920 --> 2:00:29.720 guitar set up. But Bob would talk to us, you know, 2:00:29.840 --> 2:00:34.000 and kind of give us adult lessons. I'll tell you 2:00:34.040 --> 2:00:37.360 the most important one I ever had. We had been 2:00:37.480 --> 2:00:41.160 driven to a place to play, and we were going 2:00:41.240 --> 2:00:45.520 to you know, we were the boys club representative. And 2:00:46.280 --> 2:00:48.960 for some reason I was trying to plug in my amplifier, 2:00:49.040 --> 2:00:53.440 but my AMP would not reach the electrical outlet. I 2:00:53.520 --> 2:00:57.480 needed an extension cord, which wasn't part of my arsenal, 2:00:58.280 --> 2:01:01.320 and so I went over to find you know, I 2:01:01.320 --> 2:01:03.160 gotta find Bob. I gotta find, you know, because I'm 2:01:03.160 --> 2:01:07.880 in a strange location to do this. But I I 2:01:07.920 --> 2:01:10.320 don't even actually remember doing it, but I know it 2:01:10.400 --> 2:01:14.839 happened because I heard the the playback of the tape, 2:01:14.880 --> 2:01:17.840 you might say, from Bob. I walked up and Bob 2:01:17.880 --> 2:01:22.600 was sitting talking with another gentleman who was obviously in 2:01:22.640 --> 2:01:26.920 a similar position with another Boys Club but I must 2:01:26.920 --> 2:01:32.040 have kind of interrupted urgently, sort of certainly, without asking 2:01:32.320 --> 2:01:35.360 please or may I interrupt you? I probably walked up 2:01:35.360 --> 2:01:38.960 and said something like I really needed extension cord. My 2:01:39.000 --> 2:01:41.560 aunt's not gonna work without, you know, like I'm so 2:01:41.640 --> 2:01:45.640 important in other words, um, and Bob looked at me, 2:01:46.200 --> 2:01:49.120 looked at the other gentleman. Because I didn't realize I 2:01:49.160 --> 2:01:52.680 had done this. I just suddenly, he was now saying 2:01:53.640 --> 2:01:59.400 his mannerism, said whoa time out? Slow down? Right? And 2:01:59.520 --> 2:02:04.480 he said, first you should say please. Now I realized 2:02:04.520 --> 2:02:07.920 I've done something wrong that you should ask me as 2:02:07.920 --> 2:02:12.720 a request, may I please have your help, your assistance, 2:02:13.280 --> 2:02:17.520 because I really need to find an extension court and 2:02:17.680 --> 2:02:21.840 I forgot to bring one. I've looked at Bob, and 2:02:21.880 --> 2:02:23.960 of course I'm sure I was hot under the collar 2:02:24.040 --> 2:02:28.480 then did what he said. But in all the years later, 2:02:28.560 --> 2:02:31.160 when I've thought about that moment and and Bob, through 2:02:31.200 --> 2:02:34.560 many more appearances that we did and a couple of 2:02:34.640 --> 2:02:39.480 years of it, actually I've thanked him in my mind that, wow, 2:02:40.040 --> 2:02:42.840 you know, I was a snotty kid who thought he 2:02:42.920 --> 2:02:47.200 was important, that I was obviously what's the word embarrassed 2:02:47.240 --> 2:02:50.480 that I didn't have it together, and so now I 2:02:50.520 --> 2:02:54.080 was urgently whatever that is, because that's so big. You 2:02:54.160 --> 2:02:57.000 see so much of that crop. In fact, now we 2:02:57.120 --> 2:03:01.320 expect it from our celebrities. Is horrible. And Bob kind 2:03:01.320 --> 2:03:04.840 of stopped me in my tracks at probably fourteen years old, 2:03:05.680 --> 2:03:07.360 kind of just you know, he's an adult and I'm 2:03:07.400 --> 2:03:10.760 a kid, kind of saying you're acting like a kid. 2:03:10.880 --> 2:03:15.000 You're being immature. It's rude and you you know you 2:03:15.040 --> 2:03:19.800 won't get very far doing that, And how can I 2:03:19.840 --> 2:03:22.800 say it? I've had a good enough upbringing less their 2:03:22.840 --> 2:03:27.000 heart from my mom and what other teachers had cared 2:03:27.040 --> 2:03:32.120 to bother You know that I understood what this lesson was. 2:03:32.640 --> 2:03:37.400 So um Again, I'm a human being. I've certainly had 2:03:37.480 --> 2:03:40.720 my moments, but that was important to me and it's 2:03:40.720 --> 2:03:44.480 still important to me. Okay, the band has huge success, 2:03:44.560 --> 2:03:49.200 starts with Susie Q. Proud Mary is gigantic. I'm sure 2:03:49.240 --> 2:03:51.520 you're on a roll, you're feeling good, you have a 2:03:51.520 --> 2:03:55.640 couple more hits. Then, how hard is it to write 2:03:55.680 --> 2:03:58.400 these songs? Do you feel well, I have to write 2:03:58.400 --> 2:04:00.640 a song is good or close to as good as 2:04:00.680 --> 2:04:03.960 the other ones? Do you discard other ones? How much 2:04:04.000 --> 2:04:07.720 pressure internal pressure. There's always external pressure deliver a hit, 2:04:08.480 --> 2:04:13.240 but how much internal pressure not? How did you manage that? Well? Now, 2:04:13.320 --> 2:04:17.400 remember um, when the four when I got off of 2:04:17.440 --> 2:04:23.480 active duty, the four of us sort of resolved to 2:04:24.280 --> 2:04:30.240 make it or break it. We gave ourselves vaguely a year. Right. 2:04:31.360 --> 2:04:35.760 Amazingly it happened within that year. But we figured that 2:04:35.840 --> 2:04:38.280 Tom was the only kind of quote adult. He was 2:04:38.320 --> 2:04:41.800 over twenty one, had a real job at pgn E, 2:04:42.320 --> 2:04:47.200 that's the electrical company, also became a band. Yeah, that's right, 2:04:47.360 --> 2:04:51.480 and we were rehearsing every day and took it very seriously. 2:04:51.600 --> 2:04:54.280 We were trying to get better. And you know, we 2:04:54.280 --> 2:04:58.000 we really as gollywogs that had made the records earlier 2:04:58.040 --> 2:05:02.560 with Fantasy that was kind of churish, not unlike so 2:05:02.720 --> 2:05:07.400 many records of that era, like perhaps Psychotic Reaction by 2:05:07.440 --> 2:05:11.560 the Count Five and many others. Yeah, So just to 2:05:11.640 --> 2:05:13.640 be clear, because I don't want to leave this hanging. 2:05:14.000 --> 2:05:16.120 When you were with the Boys Club, did they make 2:05:16.160 --> 2:05:18.200 a record? It was not the first time you heard 2:05:18.200 --> 2:05:22.600 yourself on the radio? Yeah? Absolutely, That's why I went there. 2:05:22.720 --> 2:05:27.440 Um at one of the places we played, and I 2:05:27.760 --> 2:05:31.480 know it was an outdoor race track, and that's all 2:05:31.520 --> 2:05:35.440 I can remember about it. But this young man named 2:05:35.520 --> 2:05:39.440 James Powell came up and it was had seen us play, 2:05:39.560 --> 2:05:41.760 and he said, I would like you to get you 2:05:41.800 --> 2:05:45.080 guys to help me make a record. And you know, 2:05:45.280 --> 2:05:51.280 he was twenty five or so, we were about fourteen, okay, Uh, needless, well, 2:05:51.520 --> 2:05:56.760 James was a black fella. Um. His music was decidedly 2:05:57.000 --> 2:06:00.200 doo wop, but he was really good at it. I 2:06:00.200 --> 2:06:03.120 mean he you know, if I was to sing a 2:06:03.160 --> 2:06:05.839 song like that, it would have sounded like a fourteen 2:06:05.920 --> 2:06:10.840 year old middle class white boy, and James really sounded 2:06:11.000 --> 2:06:14.600 exactly like that was his wheelhouse, right, And he had 2:06:14.640 --> 2:06:18.600 a few songs, if I remember correctly, almost every song 2:06:18.680 --> 2:06:22.880 he had was a girl's name, and so his the 2:06:23.360 --> 2:06:28.560 we recorded two songs to be uh that first record, 2:06:29.400 --> 2:06:32.480 and he, by the way, he already had a relationship 2:06:32.680 --> 2:06:37.040 with a record company which was I believe it was 2:06:37.080 --> 2:06:40.480 called Christie Records, And we eventually met the owner of 2:06:40.600 --> 2:06:45.960 a man named Joe jarros Um, and we rehearsed with 2:06:46.240 --> 2:06:51.720 James and eventually went over to Coast Recorders in San 2:06:51.760 --> 2:06:56.560 Francisco and recorded these two songs, Beverly Angel and the 2:06:56.560 --> 2:07:00.320 other side was Martha mke Darling Beverly Angel. It was 2:07:00.360 --> 2:07:05.360 an absolute classic four chord slow song in the Vein 2:07:05.480 --> 2:07:09.400 of Earth angel or in the Still of the Night. Uh. 2:07:09.600 --> 2:07:13.520 Not quite as good as those in for sonic reasons 2:07:13.640 --> 2:07:18.040 or others, but pretty dangn close. And I literally got 2:07:18.080 --> 2:07:20.600 to hear that on the R and B station by 2:07:20.640 --> 2:07:27.000 the way, uh one time. And I believe Stu Cook 2:07:27.120 --> 2:07:29.440 may have he may have actually heard it at school 2:07:30.400 --> 2:07:33.640 one time because he was in I think the story 2:07:33.720 --> 2:07:36.800 goes he was, you know, the electronics class, and he 2:07:37.120 --> 2:07:39.839 supposed to build a radio, and he built a radio, 2:07:39.960 --> 2:07:43.400 and as it came together, he tuned in that station 2:07:43.800 --> 2:07:47.680 and they were playing Beverly Angel. If that was true, 2:07:47.720 --> 2:07:54.440 I can't imagine the mental Hey that's me. Um. So 2:07:54.520 --> 2:07:56.800 that was the first time I heard myself, although I 2:07:56.880 --> 2:07:59.600 you know, I was not the singer. I was in 2:07:59.640 --> 2:08:03.480 the back. Well, you give yourselves a year, So continue 2:08:03.520 --> 2:08:06.080 with that narrative. You were telling the story, all right, 2:08:06.400 --> 2:08:10.839 So this is nineteen seven. We've resolved to do everything 2:08:10.880 --> 2:08:13.880 we can to make it. And at some point, you know, 2:08:13.960 --> 2:08:16.680 we we say, well, we're all gonna write songs, and 2:08:16.680 --> 2:08:19.400 we're all gonna play and all that, and we actually 2:08:19.440 --> 2:08:23.400 released a song that I had already written and that 2:08:23.520 --> 2:08:28.200 had been released with I Believe, with myself and my 2:08:28.320 --> 2:08:32.480 brother Tom credited as the writer. The song was called 2:08:32.520 --> 2:08:37.040 porter Bill. I had written this song basically marching around 2:08:37.080 --> 2:08:40.040 in the army in the hot sun. It was um 2:08:41.480 --> 2:08:43.760 It was sort of a pivotal moment in my life 2:08:43.800 --> 2:08:46.080 where you're doing all this marching. You can only imagine. 2:08:46.080 --> 2:08:49.880 It's really hot on the asphalt. It's what they call 2:08:49.960 --> 2:08:53.240 a parade ground. It was a mile square, so you 2:08:53.320 --> 2:08:56.640 could march a long way in one distance in the 2:08:57.040 --> 2:09:02.000 august heat, and I would tune into this personal radio station. 2:09:02.120 --> 2:09:06.000 I started doing this song that was kind of kind 2:09:06.000 --> 2:09:09.760 of my life and kind of not and turning it 2:09:09.840 --> 2:09:11.960 into this story that was going to be a song. 2:09:12.360 --> 2:09:14.720 I got out of the army or off active duty 2:09:15.120 --> 2:09:19.520 and finished that song. I had learned how to do 2:09:19.640 --> 2:09:23.720 something I hadn't done before anyway. That song got released 2:09:23.720 --> 2:09:29.400 by the Golliwogs and called Porterville. But when we changed 2:09:29.520 --> 2:09:33.240 our name to Credence pre Credence clear Water Revival, UH 2:09:33.360 --> 2:09:39.920 Fantasy re released the song by Credence Clearwater Revival, and 2:09:40.040 --> 2:09:43.760 now the the credit at where the songwriter is was 2:09:44.200 --> 2:09:49.920 t spice bush swallowtail and what that was meant to be? Yeah, 2:09:49.920 --> 2:09:52.839 that's something Doug came up with. We were all smoking 2:09:52.880 --> 2:09:55.600 pot at the time and I guess it sounds like 2:09:55.600 --> 2:09:59.480 it doesn't it. Um. Anyway, it was a It was 2:09:59.520 --> 2:10:03.000 a word or phrase that was supposed to represent all 2:10:03.040 --> 2:10:06.480 four of us writing the song. Well, obviously since I 2:10:06.520 --> 2:10:09.600 wrote the song in the first place, you can see that, 2:10:09.800 --> 2:10:14.200 I uh, can I say, generously shared my credit with 2:10:14.560 --> 2:10:18.800 my bandmates, which is something that happened quite a bit 2:10:19.680 --> 2:10:25.560 um during that period of time and even later. It's, Uh, 2:10:25.840 --> 2:10:28.720 all I'm gonna say about is if you know about me, 2:10:29.040 --> 2:10:31.560 you know that that you know that I did that 2:10:31.640 --> 2:10:35.320 a lot and it's kind of surprising actually, But anyway, 2:10:35.360 --> 2:10:42.840 that was um, that was how our songwriting. I'm can 2:10:42.840 --> 2:10:46.040 I say it became collected for a while. But after 2:10:46.120 --> 2:10:49.720 the first album was beginning to take shape and I 2:10:49.800 --> 2:10:55.640 had written I think all the songs that were not 2:10:56.280 --> 2:11:00.480 cover songs, I finally went to the band that they said, 2:11:01.560 --> 2:11:05.040 I don't like this arrangement. It was now six seven 2:11:05.040 --> 2:11:08.640 months later, eight months later, and I had written all 2:11:08.640 --> 2:11:10.720 the songs and it had kind of turned out that 2:11:10.760 --> 2:11:15.440 the other guys weren't coming up with ideas. I think literally, 2:11:15.480 --> 2:11:18.280 I would show up at our everyday practice and you know, 2:11:18.360 --> 2:11:23.840 rehearsal and go, well, does anybody have anything? And everybody 2:11:23.880 --> 2:11:26.400 would kind of look at the ground, you know, look 2:11:26.400 --> 2:11:30.520 at their shoe tops and say and so I would 2:11:30.520 --> 2:11:33.080 show them what I had. And this happened day after 2:11:33.200 --> 2:11:36.360 day for months, and we and the course of which 2:11:36.400 --> 2:11:40.280 we started to learn musical ideas, you know, RiPPs, things 2:11:40.320 --> 2:11:44.680 like that, drum beats, things that I had created, baselines, 2:11:45.480 --> 2:11:49.000 and eventually several songs the best of the best I 2:11:49.000 --> 2:11:51.760 could come up with were those ones that appear on 2:11:51.840 --> 2:11:54.960 that album. And I didn't want to share the credit. 2:11:55.160 --> 2:11:58.640 So what I said would look, I'll share the money, 2:11:58.720 --> 2:12:03.520 but I think I should get credit for something I've written. Um, 2:12:03.560 --> 2:12:07.880 at least I did that, and it's true. Uh, the 2:12:08.040 --> 2:12:11.240 songwriting was split four ways at that time for the 2:12:11.280 --> 2:12:16.520 next two years on the next four albums, I believe, 2:12:16.680 --> 2:12:20.680 all of which were uh, you know, multi platinum around 2:12:20.720 --> 2:12:25.240 the world. I think I finally said, okay, you're all 2:12:25.280 --> 2:12:29.560 millionaires several times old is many years. Hence I said, 2:12:29.600 --> 2:12:36.480 I think I don't have to share the money. Anymore. Um, 2:12:36.520 --> 2:12:40.760 I realized that that sounds like backsliding. But it wasn't 2:12:41.360 --> 2:12:44.400 too many days after that that the band broke up, 2:12:44.720 --> 2:12:49.400 So I think it was almost with self defense. You 2:12:49.480 --> 2:12:54.680 might say, Uh, you know, we're talking nineteen seventy one 2:12:55.240 --> 2:12:59.800 or so. Anyhow, Okay, to go back to your question, 2:13:00.360 --> 2:13:03.600 which was, let me ask a different question. When you 2:13:03.720 --> 2:13:08.240 wrote proud Mary, did you know it was a smash? Uh? 2:13:08.720 --> 2:13:11.760 What a question? And I was the only one in 2:13:11.800 --> 2:13:16.200 the room, Um, believe it or not. Now we we 2:13:16.800 --> 2:13:21.120 skip up to nineteen sixty eight. I've done my active duty. 2:13:22.640 --> 2:13:27.200 I've determined that I'm going to try and get released 2:13:27.280 --> 2:13:30.840 from the military. So I I started volunteering. Said, look, 2:13:30.880 --> 2:13:32.720 I'll come in during the week and do my work. 2:13:32.760 --> 2:13:34.560 I don't even have to show up to the official 2:13:34.600 --> 2:13:37.640 meeting in my uniform and you know, make you guys 2:13:37.680 --> 2:13:40.040 angry at me. But they wouldn't go for that, so 2:13:40.280 --> 2:13:44.320 I began trying to figure out ways to actually get released. Okay, 2:13:44.840 --> 2:13:48.920 so April even May of sixty eight, I'm trying to 2:13:48.960 --> 2:13:53.920 get released from the Army reserves. But I know I'm 2:13:53.920 --> 2:13:58.600 gonna have to go to uh summer camp. And I 2:13:58.680 --> 2:14:02.400 also know that here's that guy, there's that communist. They're 2:14:02.400 --> 2:14:04.440 gonna they're gonna have their way with me if I 2:14:04.440 --> 2:14:08.640 have to go through that thing. So it was probably 2:14:08.800 --> 2:14:12.560 Midsummer of and I don't know, I can't pin down 2:14:12.560 --> 2:14:15.400 the month any better than that. But there's this thing 2:14:15.680 --> 2:14:18.520 on the steps. There's an envelope sitting there, and it's 2:14:18.520 --> 2:14:21.879 got a big government stamp on it. I literally stepped 2:14:21.920 --> 2:14:25.840 over it two or three days in a row. I'm 2:14:25.880 --> 2:14:29.720 a kid in a little apartment what finally, because it 2:14:30.040 --> 2:14:33.400 kept being there, and it's in front of my neighbor's 2:14:33.440 --> 2:14:37.560 door actually, and I look closer and it says John Fogerty, 2:14:37.680 --> 2:14:43.160 Private John Fogerty. I look inside and it's my honorable discharge, 2:14:44.160 --> 2:14:49.240 and I go, WHOA, Yes, are you kidding that? After 2:14:49.320 --> 2:14:52.760 the journey I had been through. WOA, Yes. I was 2:14:52.800 --> 2:14:56.080 so happy. And I literally there's a little patch of 2:14:56.120 --> 2:14:59.120 grass in front of our apartment building. And I did 2:14:59.240 --> 2:15:02.600 a cart We don't ask me how, but I did 2:15:02.600 --> 2:15:05.200 a cart wheel. My brain was saying, you're gonna want 2:15:05.200 --> 2:15:07.640 to know you did a cart whale, and I did. 2:15:08.080 --> 2:15:11.040 I ran in the house and I grabbed my Rickenbacker. 2:15:11.520 --> 2:15:14.440 I started playing with these chords I've been playing before, 2:15:14.720 --> 2:15:18.320 kind of the vaguely the Beethoven's Fifth Thing, you know, 2:15:18.320 --> 2:15:20.480 blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, you know. And 2:15:20.520 --> 2:15:23.480 I started doing him again and suddenly I'm you know, 2:15:23.560 --> 2:15:28.800 I'm euphori. Wow. Wow. And I started working on this 2:15:28.920 --> 2:15:31.120 song with these chords, and the next thing, you know, 2:15:31.200 --> 2:15:34.000 and left a good job in the city because I 2:15:34.040 --> 2:15:37.760 just did working boat a man every night and day. Wow, 2:15:38.400 --> 2:15:41.520 I'm playing these chords, you know, I'm all by myself, right, 2:15:41.560 --> 2:15:44.280 and the screen door is I mean, the door is open, 2:15:44.360 --> 2:15:47.360 but there's a screen door that I've come in from 2:15:47.360 --> 2:15:53.000 outside where that just happened, this bolt of whatever from 2:15:53.040 --> 2:15:55.840 the sky. I mean, I was just in this euphoria. 2:15:56.200 --> 2:16:00.440 I'm strumming away and suddenly I'm rolling, rolling, rolling, Wow, 2:16:00.480 --> 2:16:02.920 what are you rolling on the river? Cat? I mean, 2:16:02.920 --> 2:16:06.600 it was just all slamming together in my brain. I'm 2:16:06.640 --> 2:16:11.360 so excited and happy, you know, And what's this about? What? 2:16:11.360 --> 2:16:13.560 What is this thing? Rolling on the I left a 2:16:13.600 --> 2:16:16.760 good job and so I grabbed this little thing. And 2:16:16.800 --> 2:16:19.400 it's a whole another story, Bob, And we don't have time. 2:16:19.680 --> 2:16:22.160 But it was my song book that I had only 2:16:22.240 --> 2:16:25.680 just started a few months before. I flipped through it, 2:16:25.800 --> 2:16:27.880 flipped through it and looking around for some kind of 2:16:27.920 --> 2:16:30.680 and the very first thing I ever wrote in that book, 2:16:31.840 --> 2:16:36.160 the prior October was the very first injury in the 2:16:36.200 --> 2:16:40.320 book is the words proud Mary. And when I wrote 2:16:40.360 --> 2:16:43.040 them there, I had no idea what the hell is 2:16:43.080 --> 2:16:47.640 proud Mary? Who is that? But now I'm I opened 2:16:47.680 --> 2:16:52.560 my book and I Proud Mary. Proud Mary. That sounds 2:16:52.560 --> 2:16:55.879 like a name of a boat. Oh, this is a 2:16:55.920 --> 2:16:59.560 song about a boat rolling on the Oh my goodness. 2:16:59.560 --> 2:17:02.240 I mean it really happened, just like I'm living. And 2:17:02.280 --> 2:17:07.680 now it was what oblong I'm trying to say, obscure 2:17:07.800 --> 2:17:12.640 things coming from obscure corners, sort of clinging together in 2:17:12.680 --> 2:17:17.279 a way that made sense to me from the structure 2:17:17.360 --> 2:17:21.760 that I had loosely set up around myself without realizing it. 2:17:22.240 --> 2:17:29.200 And within an hour of picking up that that envelope, 2:17:29.959 --> 2:17:32.640 I had a song that was called Proud Mary. I 2:17:32.680 --> 2:17:35.720 can't say that every single verse had every single word, 2:17:36.080 --> 2:17:40.800 but it certainly wasn't finished. I had three verses, I 2:17:40.840 --> 2:17:44.440 had a chorus, and I had this yellow piece of 2:17:45.000 --> 2:17:49.039 like that legal pad paper, and I used those days 2:17:49.080 --> 2:17:53.039 I used this felt tip kind of ink pin and 2:17:53.080 --> 2:17:56.000 I was sitting there looking at Proud Mary. It said 2:17:56.040 --> 2:17:59.120 at the top of these three verses and choruses, and 2:17:59.200 --> 2:18:04.400 I bob setting and sitting in my room. I was, wow, Wow, 2:18:04.560 --> 2:18:08.360 this is really this is a standard. That was my phrase, 2:18:08.680 --> 2:18:11.039 because I was kind of old fashioned, you know, meaning 2:18:11.080 --> 2:18:14.440 like Irving Berlin or Jogi car Michael. I said, this 2:18:14.520 --> 2:18:17.600 is a standard. This is a really, really good song. 2:18:18.040 --> 2:18:24.080 And I'm shaking with with such realization that how hected 2:18:24.320 --> 2:18:28.199 me do this right? I mean, it was like if 2:18:28.280 --> 2:18:32.280 you were had stumbled in the mountains and found the 2:18:32.360 --> 2:18:34.920 Holy Grail or whatever. You know, I'm too dumb to 2:18:35.000 --> 2:18:38.920 do this, but somehow I had stumbled into this and 2:18:39.240 --> 2:18:43.160 here it is, and I knew it was great, absolutely, 2:18:44.600 --> 2:18:47.280 with every core, you know, every bone in my body. 2:18:47.320 --> 2:18:51.160 I just knew it. And there was nobody ever, no 2:18:51.200 --> 2:18:53.760 one else knew. There was nobody for me to tell. 2:18:53.879 --> 2:18:58.400 And yet my own consciousness was absolutely that this stands 2:18:58.520 --> 2:19:02.440 up next to I don't know, Blue Skies or star 2:19:02.560 --> 2:19:06.199 Dust or you know. I don't know if I dared 2:19:06.240 --> 2:19:08.560 to think I want to hold your hand yet, but 2:19:09.000 --> 2:19:15.000 I knew this song was for a long time. Well, 2:19:15.040 --> 2:19:18.400 I find it interesting. Everybody says, uh, no one knows 2:19:18.480 --> 2:19:21.279 what to hit. But when you talk to the masters, 2:19:22.240 --> 2:19:24.960 they say it exactly like you when you really ring 2:19:25.040 --> 2:19:27.640 the bell, when you hit it eleven. You know. So 2:19:27.680 --> 2:19:30.800 in any event you start having hits, how do you 2:19:30.840 --> 2:19:34.760 write songs thereafter? And how about the internal pressure? Okay? 2:19:34.800 --> 2:19:39.320 So I have a spice bush swallowtail because for a 2:19:39.360 --> 2:19:41.840 while there was that limited idea that we would all 2:19:41.920 --> 2:19:46.040 be writing songs kind of like uh, named bands that 2:19:46.120 --> 2:19:49.200 do that, and I can't think of one right now now, 2:19:49.480 --> 2:19:53.640 not them, um, you know where it's a collaborative kind 2:19:53.640 --> 2:19:57.759 of maybe more like Dan Halen or something like that. Um. 2:19:57.800 --> 2:20:02.440 But clearly because of Proud Mary and Born on the Bayou, 2:20:02.560 --> 2:20:05.400 which was the other side, and that second album that 2:20:05.480 --> 2:20:09.520 they were on, um, something had happened. At least it 2:20:09.640 --> 2:20:11.800 was clear to me. I mean, like you know, it 2:20:11.920 --> 2:20:14.800 was clear to everybody. Come on, well, I don't know. 2:20:14.959 --> 2:20:17.680 The guys in my band got real started to get 2:20:17.720 --> 2:20:23.840 real weird about this, Okay. So then I knew I 2:20:23.879 --> 2:20:26.240 wanted to follow this up, and I knew there was 2:20:26.320 --> 2:20:30.080 nothing else on that album. The album being the second 2:20:30.120 --> 2:20:33.760 album being Byou Country had Borne on the Bayou and 2:20:33.800 --> 2:20:37.200 Proud Mary, and then a few clicks down was a 2:20:37.240 --> 2:20:40.160 track called good Golly, Miss Molly, which was also a 2:20:40.200 --> 2:20:43.240 great track, but there were there wasn't anything else that 2:20:43.560 --> 2:20:46.480 was like Proud Mary, okay, And that meant I had 2:20:46.520 --> 2:20:51.080 to write a new song to try and compete, you know, 2:20:51.120 --> 2:20:53.360 be at that level. But it would be an orphan 2:20:54.520 --> 2:20:56.800 meaning it would be a single. It's not on an album. 2:20:56.840 --> 2:20:58.880 That didn't bother me. I didn't, you know, but it 2:20:58.920 --> 2:21:04.560 was by itself. So I eventually wrote Bad Moon Rising 2:21:04.640 --> 2:21:08.280 and Low Die, and even in my own heart, it 2:21:08.360 --> 2:21:11.440 was it was the very best I could do, and 2:21:12.520 --> 2:21:15.879 I almost felt like it didn't quite measure up to 2:21:15.920 --> 2:21:20.160 Proud Mary. I actually told the guys, uh, well, we've 2:21:20.200 --> 2:21:24.160 got two B sides, you know, and I guess they 2:21:24.160 --> 2:21:27.600 were good enough, but I I mean, I feel differently now. 2:21:27.800 --> 2:21:31.200 But it once you've had Proud Mary be taken the 2:21:31.240 --> 2:21:35.280 way it was with everyone kind of almost did anybody 2:21:35.320 --> 2:21:38.039 actually write that or was it just there all the time, 2:21:38.600 --> 2:21:42.720 you know, because that's how it felt, because I had unwittingly, 2:21:42.959 --> 2:21:45.240 you know, all that stuff we talked about Pete Seeger 2:21:45.360 --> 2:21:49.360 and Stephen Foster in America and whatever. All that sort 2:21:49.360 --> 2:21:54.359 of air dust is that we kind of just intuitively 2:21:54.480 --> 2:21:59.720 understand as our country and who we are and all that. Um. 2:21:59.840 --> 2:22:07.880 I had somehow blindly tapped into that, and you know, how, 2:22:08.080 --> 2:22:10.800 how's that ever gonna happen again? I thought Bad Moon 2:22:10.879 --> 2:22:15.480 was good anyway, so that was what I did, and 2:22:16.040 --> 2:22:19.520 Bad Moon Rising became a big hit. In fact, it 2:22:19.600 --> 2:22:21.640 started to be a hit and was on the charts 2:22:21.720 --> 2:22:24.760 before pril Mary was off the charts, which was a 2:22:24.840 --> 2:22:29.199 wonderful thing. So now he was, Okay, I gotta start, 2:22:29.560 --> 2:22:33.040 you know, get busy. And now there was sort of 2:22:33.080 --> 2:22:36.560 the attitude that, well, I can see I'm I'm the 2:22:36.600 --> 2:22:40.000 guy that's kind of got to do this otherwise it's 2:22:40.800 --> 2:22:46.560 not going to get done. And I had always you know, 2:22:46.600 --> 2:22:49.120 I loved Sun Records, and I loved the sound of 2:22:49.160 --> 2:22:52.400 a band like that that would be on Sun Records, 2:22:52.840 --> 2:22:58.520 and we hadn't quite officially gone there yet, and I 2:22:58.600 --> 2:23:02.040 wanted to do that. You know what, you might if 2:23:02.040 --> 2:23:04.800 it was the top artist, it would be an Elvis track, 2:23:05.240 --> 2:23:06.840 and if it was one of the other guys at 2:23:06.840 --> 2:23:11.000 my Perkins or um certainly not Jerry Lee. But although 2:23:11.040 --> 2:23:14.160 he had the spirit but the kind of guitar oriented 2:23:14.280 --> 2:23:18.360 music that came out of Son Johnny Cash even and 2:23:19.440 --> 2:23:21.760 you know, I had this idea about the Green River 2:23:21.879 --> 2:23:24.480 that had been carrying around since I was eight years old, 2:23:25.040 --> 2:23:30.040 and I managed to collect all that imagery and feeling 2:23:30.080 --> 2:23:33.320 with the music, and I knew what it should sound like, 2:23:33.680 --> 2:23:36.640 and I knew really nobody else was touching that. I mean, 2:23:37.240 --> 2:23:40.360 it was my favorite stuff. If somebody would make that record, 2:23:40.400 --> 2:23:44.680 I'd buy it, you know. And that's what I kind 2:23:44.680 --> 2:23:47.800 of set out to do to make that music. That 2:23:47.959 --> 2:23:53.080 song that is my very very favorite thing of all Um. 2:23:53.160 --> 2:23:56.440 It's sort of that acoustic sounding rock and roll that 2:23:56.520 --> 2:23:59.800 came out of Son, and I thought I did it 2:24:00.920 --> 2:24:04.280 Um And so that was the next thing, and we 2:24:04.280 --> 2:24:07.760 were there's one of the sad stories in our band 2:24:08.080 --> 2:24:11.320 that it's where one of the first cracks showed up. 2:24:11.840 --> 2:24:18.000 We were in rehearsal at Dougs Place and we were 2:24:18.080 --> 2:24:23.440 learning the new song Green River, and probably commotion to 2:24:23.560 --> 2:24:25.879 get it ready, you know, to be this was going 2:24:25.920 --> 2:24:28.640 to be the third album, but we weren't anywhere near 2:24:28.680 --> 2:24:32.400 recording the album, but we were getting ready to record 2:24:33.600 --> 2:24:37.879 the single. Green River especially was what we were working on, 2:24:38.480 --> 2:24:40.560 we're done, we get out to the curve. I remember 2:24:40.560 --> 2:24:43.760 I had my Gibson guitar sitting in that the way 2:24:43.800 --> 2:24:47.360 that certain guitar case looked, and I was going to pack. 2:24:47.640 --> 2:24:50.760 You know, We're all saying goodbye, and Tom says to me, 2:24:51.440 --> 2:24:55.320 you're really getting quite a repertoire. But he doesn't say 2:24:55.360 --> 2:25:01.400 it in a loving, admirab like admiring way. I could 2:25:01.440 --> 2:25:03.840 just tell, because we're all human beings were sensitive to 2:25:03.920 --> 2:25:07.080 tone of voice. And you know, even though the words 2:25:07.160 --> 2:25:12.560 were like an acknowledgement or even a U a pep talk, 2:25:13.000 --> 2:25:16.960 it was it was just he hissed it through his teeth, 2:25:17.560 --> 2:25:20.080 you know, And I mean it scared me. It was 2:25:20.160 --> 2:25:24.279 really unsettling to me because of all the journeys since 2:25:24.360 --> 2:25:28.320 I had been home from active duty, every single day 2:25:28.480 --> 2:25:34.400 had been positive, every single step along this path, even 2:25:34.800 --> 2:25:37.640 nights when we played someplace in some bar and there 2:25:37.640 --> 2:25:40.920 were only three people in the audience, you know, it 2:25:41.080 --> 2:25:46.119 was always a positive motion of us um. I mean, 2:25:46.160 --> 2:25:49.840 if you're together and you hang together, you can overcome anything. 2:25:49.959 --> 2:25:55.200 That's just the way Blood Brothers operate. And this was 2:25:55.280 --> 2:25:58.960 the first moment of like what they call trouble in paradise, 2:25:59.040 --> 2:26:01.560 you know, it's like and I just I didn't. I 2:26:01.600 --> 2:26:04.160 didn't even know what to make of it. I didn't understand, 2:26:05.640 --> 2:26:08.760 as they say, where it was coming from. What you know. 2:26:09.000 --> 2:26:11.600 It was the first also the first time I thought, yeah, 2:26:11.640 --> 2:26:13.640 I've got a couple of three songs now that are 2:26:13.640 --> 2:26:16.800 pretty good, you know. But all I could see was 2:26:16.840 --> 2:26:19.440 to put my head down and get that shovel digging 2:26:19.480 --> 2:26:25.760 in the ground. The delay, the telegraphed, the unhappiness emotion, 2:26:26.360 --> 2:26:30.080 but I really didn't understand it at all. Okay, we're 2:26:30.080 --> 2:26:32.000 gonna have to do a whole another thing with all 2:26:32.080 --> 2:26:34.720 the songs and all the credence. But let's jump forward 2:26:35.080 --> 2:26:39.240 at this late date. Fortunate son and who will Stop 2:26:39.320 --> 2:26:42.840 the Rain? Relevant of your intention when writing them, have 2:26:43.000 --> 2:26:46.720 become part of the canon. Stephen Foster, as you mentioned earlier, 2:26:47.520 --> 2:26:52.000 protest songs, anti war songs. Leave it at that, even 2:26:52.000 --> 2:26:56.080 though sometimes the right has tried to glam onto those songs. 2:26:56.200 --> 2:27:00.840 So as the son of left wingers, as a liberal 2:27:00.879 --> 2:27:03.800 in your error, what do you think about what's going 2:27:03.879 --> 2:27:08.199 on in the United States now? And could music play 2:27:08.240 --> 2:27:11.240 a part like it did in the sixties and change 2:27:11.280 --> 2:27:16.359 people's thoughts? You had to go and ask this one. Uh. 2:27:16.560 --> 2:27:19.520 I mean, you know, there's only one way to answer, 2:27:20.480 --> 2:27:23.040 and so I'm going to answer that way. But what 2:27:23.080 --> 2:27:28.320 I mean is not holding back anything, not trying to 2:27:28.400 --> 2:27:33.519 filter anything. Sometimes people think I may be a little abrasive. 2:27:34.320 --> 2:27:39.760 Um and is I'm saddened. This all makes me very sad. 2:27:40.520 --> 2:27:49.040 Um the political, emotional, philosophical place. I'm not talking about 2:27:49.040 --> 2:27:52.879 the music on their radio. I'm talking about the genuine, 2:27:53.160 --> 2:28:02.000 the genuine, the general demeanor of our cultural topography. And 2:28:02.000 --> 2:28:06.560 I'm sorry that he's two dollar words there. It makes 2:28:06.600 --> 2:28:12.120 me really sad because boy, in the sixties, you know, 2:28:12.160 --> 2:28:17.519 when people would say you know everybody, and they meant everybody. 2:28:17.640 --> 2:28:21.120 We should be better people as a country. We are 2:28:21.240 --> 2:28:25.400 better than this. We should welcome all of our people. 2:28:25.879 --> 2:28:29.120 We should welcome all of our citizens. We should be 2:28:29.160 --> 2:28:37.040 willing to help the lowest in our society economically pull 2:28:37.160 --> 2:28:41.440 themselves up because they can't perhaps do it themselves. We 2:28:41.480 --> 2:28:44.360 should lend a hand so that we all get to 2:28:44.520 --> 2:28:47.080 ride at a higher level. I mean that to me 2:28:47.280 --> 2:28:52.480 was the dominating feeling, certainly of young people in the sixties, 2:28:53.000 --> 2:28:59.119 you know, And a lot of words were used like peace, love, happiness. Um, 2:29:00.120 --> 2:29:04.000 they were. They were genuinely meant by most people then 2:29:04.400 --> 2:29:10.560 and felt by most people then, and certainly by young people. Um, 2:29:10.600 --> 2:29:12.520 I know that. You know, back in the day, there 2:29:12.520 --> 2:29:16.320 would be somebody like a Less Dramatics who happened to 2:29:16.360 --> 2:29:22.960 be from the South, or Governor Wallace, who, um, what's 2:29:23.000 --> 2:29:26.600 the word obviously stood for a certain point of view, 2:29:27.120 --> 2:29:31.879 but acknowledged it publicly. You know. Um, there were some 2:29:31.920 --> 2:29:35.960 other guys who were even worse. These were basically, in 2:29:36.040 --> 2:29:40.119 one form or another, white supremacsts. But you didn't say 2:29:40.160 --> 2:29:42.800 that out loud, and you certainly were not proud to 2:29:42.840 --> 2:29:46.400 say something like that. You should be in shame on you. 2:29:46.400 --> 2:29:49.160 You should be embarrassed to think that way. That's how 2:29:49.200 --> 2:29:53.440 I personally feel. And we're America. We're not hey one 2:29:53.480 --> 2:29:58.240 corner of America. Now we are America. You know when 2:29:58.240 --> 2:30:01.520 all those people started fleeing in Europe for hopefully a 2:30:01.560 --> 2:30:05.600 better place, um, that's what they had in mind. They 2:30:05.640 --> 2:30:10.600 wanted to set up a utopia. And slowly but surely 2:30:10.680 --> 2:30:14.520 we've arrived. You know, some of these things you can legislate, 2:30:14.720 --> 2:30:18.240 and a lot of these things you can't. It's it's 2:30:18.280 --> 2:30:23.160 really hard to make a document that for tells every 2:30:23.640 --> 2:30:28.960 way human beings will try to circumvent other human beings. Um, 2:30:29.120 --> 2:30:33.000 you you just have to have a premise that of 2:30:33.160 --> 2:30:36.760 tolerance of you know, yes, you deserve to be here 2:30:36.959 --> 2:30:39.760 just as much as I deserve to be here. And 2:30:39.760 --> 2:30:43.760 we're gonna start with that premise. So go ahead, tell 2:30:43.760 --> 2:30:46.440 me you're bad stuff, and I'll tell you my bed stuff. 2:30:46.760 --> 2:30:49.480 You know, let's see if we can work this out. Um, 2:30:49.520 --> 2:30:52.080 that's how it was in the sixties. It was volatile 2:30:52.760 --> 2:30:58.480 and clanging and loud, and people were yelling. But aside 2:30:58.480 --> 2:31:00.880 from a few of the crime and ofstden I'm talking 2:31:00.879 --> 2:31:06.400 about people who were politically I'm gonna leave, I'm gonna 2:31:06.480 --> 2:31:09.080 shut up and just keep it. People who look like 2:31:09.240 --> 2:31:13.600 they were just politicians, but actually behind the scenes they 2:31:13.600 --> 2:31:18.920 were much more evil than that, um, and had control 2:31:19.040 --> 2:31:23.640 of certain arms of our government. Uh, most of us 2:31:23.840 --> 2:31:28.200 really wanted to find that utopia. When I hear a 2:31:28.280 --> 2:31:32.600 president of the United States nowadays utter a phrase that 2:31:32.720 --> 2:31:35.560 could have he could have just said it after the 2:31:35.600 --> 2:31:40.200 Buffalo shooting. Someone like that guy could have said, you know, 2:31:40.920 --> 2:31:44.600 I think there's very good people on both sides. How 2:31:44.640 --> 2:31:47.520 the hell do you say that. I mean, does that 2:31:47.560 --> 2:31:51.720 sound ludicrous to you or what? That's that's how I 2:31:51.760 --> 2:31:55.920 would I'm so sad that we now have politicians even 2:31:55.959 --> 2:32:03.280 a week later now expousing this trap about replacement. I 2:32:03.360 --> 2:32:05.720 can't let one of those people in my country because 2:32:05.760 --> 2:32:08.800 he's gonna take my place. That's not what we're doing here. 2:32:09.160 --> 2:32:12.280 We're inviting everybody. Yeah. I realized there's got to be 2:32:12.320 --> 2:32:16.760 some kind of quota system, but nobody's like walking around 2:32:17.080 --> 2:32:22.600 the back of the auditorium and eliminating you. Right, you're here, 2:32:22.640 --> 2:32:27.920 they're here. Let's work it out. Um, yes, I'm I'm 2:32:28.200 --> 2:32:32.520 I'm uh like like that. That's a legitimate way of thinking. 2:32:32.600 --> 2:32:37.039 I no wonder other people get mad. Uh. We gotta 2:32:37.120 --> 2:32:41.840 do better, We gotta we gotta start to agree that 2:32:41.920 --> 2:32:45.039 you you don't have the right to go wipe out 2:32:45.040 --> 2:32:48.120 a whole bunch of people, and then some politician is 2:32:48.120 --> 2:32:50.000 going to give you a you know, an elbow and 2:32:50.280 --> 2:32:53.960 wink a nudge and say it's okay, we understand that one. 2:32:54.480 --> 2:32:58.879 That's wrong. Okay. We believe that music could change the 2:32:58.920 --> 2:33:01.720 world in the six these is there a role for 2:33:02.000 --> 2:33:06.400 music and changing people's thoughts and moving the country to 2:33:06.520 --> 2:33:10.119 a place where you would be more uh, you would 2:33:10.160 --> 2:33:13.000 be happier about the state. So you're asking about You're 2:33:13.040 --> 2:33:19.120 asking me about something that hasn't occurred now. But all 2:33:19.240 --> 2:33:23.640 I can the answer is, yes, is there? Yes, I 2:33:23.720 --> 2:33:33.200 absolutely believe music, the arts, certainly, and music being perhaps 2:33:33.200 --> 2:33:39.160 the most accessible form of art um does have the 2:33:39.200 --> 2:33:44.720 potential to change hearts and minds everywhere. Can I see 2:33:44.760 --> 2:33:52.880 that happening in this America in two thousand twenty two? Yes, Um, 2:33:52.959 --> 2:33:57.560 I think you know even my own experience and emotion 2:33:58.240 --> 2:34:03.080 that I did not realize I possessed. And it's happened 2:34:03.120 --> 2:34:08.800 to me many times, you know, sort of a little 2:34:08.840 --> 2:34:11.440 bit off center here. But one of those songs to 2:34:11.520 --> 2:34:16.160 me was a song called Sending the Clowns, which I've 2:34:16.200 --> 2:34:19.240 been both the clown and the guy on the ground, 2:34:19.800 --> 2:34:24.720 you know, And at some point hearing that song and 2:34:24.800 --> 2:34:28.640 hearing how it is so full of humanity, you know, 2:34:29.560 --> 2:34:32.240 I'm sure when I was twenty one, my my heart 2:34:32.800 --> 2:34:36.320 didn't even know how to experience that. I'm sure you 2:34:36.400 --> 2:34:40.119 understand what I'm saying. And I realized I was I 2:34:40.200 --> 2:34:44.120 was not that person at twenty. Um I am now, 2:34:44.600 --> 2:34:49.200 you know, And I hope that my words can convey it, 2:34:49.280 --> 2:34:54.160 at least to my family certainly how I feel about them. Um, 2:34:54.360 --> 2:34:56.920 there's been many of these kind of things where I see, 2:34:58.160 --> 2:35:05.040 gosh you oh. Um. I'm trying to be specific, and 2:35:05.080 --> 2:35:10.920 I don't have a great there's a car. There's a 2:35:10.959 --> 2:35:16.920 couple of moments. I remember hearing Jesse jacksonation and we were, 2:35:17.040 --> 2:35:20.680 you know, some of us at least were Remember Reagan 2:35:20.920 --> 2:35:26.440 at some point said apartheid is good. So at least 2:35:26.480 --> 2:35:29.560 it's on the record. I can use that one. I didn't, 2:35:29.640 --> 2:35:33.560 of course believe that, And there was at some point 2:35:33.640 --> 2:35:37.760 in his presidency Jesse Jackson said it is not Ronald 2:35:37.879 --> 2:35:41.959 Reagan's fault that he's president. And I actually listened to 2:35:42.000 --> 2:35:44.640 those words and and thought about those. Of course, he 2:35:44.680 --> 2:35:49.879 didn't elect himself. Other people made him president. That's the 2:35:50.000 --> 2:35:54.080 upsetting thing here. Um. Look, I'm not trying to sit 2:35:54.080 --> 2:35:56.560 here and say Ronald Reagan was a bad man. He 2:35:56.680 --> 2:35:59.280 just didn't happen to be in you know, my political 2:35:59.720 --> 2:36:03.080 real house. But he was the guy that said apartheid 2:36:03.280 --> 2:36:08.360 is good. Go ask Nelson Mandela. Um, So I learned 2:36:08.400 --> 2:36:12.800 something from that phrase. I also in my lifetime, through 2:36:12.879 --> 2:36:18.680 my life, have I have listened to Martin Luther King Jr. 2:36:19.040 --> 2:36:22.279 Say those words over and over about I have seen 2:36:22.760 --> 2:36:26.680 the other side of the mountain. I may not get 2:36:26.720 --> 2:36:30.800 there with you. And holy smokes, if that doesn't make 2:36:31.000 --> 2:36:34.320 if you were alive when he was alive, and you 2:36:34.400 --> 2:36:37.560 think about that as I'm almost doing right now, that 2:36:37.600 --> 2:36:42.520 makes you cry and you realize there are heroes in 2:36:42.560 --> 2:36:46.800 our world. Um, some you know, some of the parents 2:36:47.480 --> 2:36:53.680 of these people in this last tragedy in Buffalo. Um, 2:36:53.680 --> 2:36:55.840 it's sorrd for me, as a white person to even 2:36:59.240 --> 2:37:02.400 express it all, you know, any anywhere near the way 2:37:02.680 --> 2:37:07.400 a person from that community would say it. But when 2:37:07.480 --> 2:37:11.920 you hear the son of a person have to deal 2:37:11.959 --> 2:37:18.480 with the death of their mom, and you hear them 2:37:18.520 --> 2:37:25.640 just trying to keep their memory alive right in the 2:37:25.680 --> 2:37:28.800 heat of the moment, when you know, I can only 2:37:28.840 --> 2:37:34.360 imagine the anger and the frustration and all that. You know, Um, 2:37:34.600 --> 2:37:36.640 we got to start talking to each other because just 2:37:37.240 --> 2:37:40.840 we've when you've got eighteen year old boys running around 2:37:40.840 --> 2:37:45.200 it are here. As I said earlier, I don't know 2:37:45.240 --> 2:37:47.280 who I was at twenty, but I'm not who I am. 2:37:47.480 --> 2:37:50.760 It wasn't who I am now I know an eighteen 2:37:50.800 --> 2:37:53.680 year old doesn't even understand what the f he's doing, 2:37:54.360 --> 2:37:58.680 and he's here seeing and hearing all this dribble and 2:37:58.720 --> 2:38:02.240 being in doctor aided, you know, because older people who 2:38:02.320 --> 2:38:05.480 should know better are telling him it's okay with a 2:38:05.520 --> 2:38:09.880 wink and a and uh, a real tickle from an elbow. 2:38:10.320 --> 2:38:14.360 I mean, that's horrible. Uh. It wouldn't make any difference 2:38:14.400 --> 2:38:17.480 if that kid had been fifty six. No, but it's 2:38:17.520 --> 2:38:24.199 just worse because because young people can be so misguided, 2:38:24.320 --> 2:38:27.600 so idealistic, you know, is it only takes a couple 2:38:27.640 --> 2:38:32.280 of twick tweaks of the radio station too to make 2:38:32.280 --> 2:38:35.000 it seem like it's some kind of cause, like their 2:38:35.080 --> 2:38:39.680 rebel without a cause, you know, and turned into turned 2:38:39.720 --> 2:38:43.959 into that. I'm sorry, I'm I'm trying to I'm babbling 2:38:44.000 --> 2:38:48.760 a little bit, But yes, I am very unsettled about 2:38:50.200 --> 2:38:54.680 what I see on the landscape of America now, because 2:38:55.440 --> 2:38:59.920 we have senators and congress people and sometimes even President 2:39:00.040 --> 2:39:05.000 is talking in ways that's just outrageous as far as 2:39:05.480 --> 2:39:10.600 lack of humanity for our fellow man, well articulated. You know, 2:39:10.640 --> 2:39:13.160 you talk about talking to each other. I've loved listening 2:39:13.240 --> 2:39:15.920 to you, you know, there's so much we didn't cover. 2:39:16.080 --> 2:39:17.720 I didn't want to, you know, go too deep in 2:39:17.760 --> 2:39:20.800 the stuff that's been covered by so many other people before. 2:39:21.360 --> 2:39:23.920 But I just want to add one note. You know, 2:39:24.000 --> 2:39:27.120 there was this rock artist coalition for a minute there 2:39:27.160 --> 2:39:29.680 in the beginning of this century, and there was a 2:39:29.800 --> 2:39:34.720 concert at the Forum which you participated in, and you 2:39:34.840 --> 2:39:36.880 just blew me away. I wrote it, so it's not 2:39:36.920 --> 2:39:39.640 like I'm lying. You can look it up. Whatever. People 2:39:39.640 --> 2:39:44.279 who haven't seen you have no idea. It's beyond the songs. 2:39:44.320 --> 2:39:46.240 You have one of the best bands. You have Kenny 2:39:46.240 --> 2:39:50.039 Aaron Off on drums, and there's a power just in 2:39:50.120 --> 2:39:53.960 the sound. Never mind, you still have your voice and delivery, 2:39:54.440 --> 2:39:56.600 and therefore you're on the road. People should go see. 2:39:56.640 --> 2:40:00.680 I can say that with all my sincerity. But John, 2:40:00.720 --> 2:40:02.560 I want to thank you so much for taking the 2:40:02.600 --> 2:40:06.480 time to talk to me in my audience today. But well, 2:40:07.080 --> 2:40:09.440 thank you for those kind words and some of which 2:40:09.760 --> 2:40:13.920 I know you have also written for which I'm so appreciative. 2:40:13.959 --> 2:40:18.199 Thank you, sir um. But I do want to say, 2:40:18.320 --> 2:40:20.560 you know, there was a movie called The Wizard of 2:40:20.600 --> 2:40:24.160 Oz and at one point one of the characters started 2:40:24.440 --> 2:40:27.880 talking about his importance and some day don't build a 2:40:28.080 --> 2:40:32.400 statue for me. And then the ladies say, I think 2:40:32.400 --> 2:40:34.360 it's anti m but it said, I said, well, don't 2:40:34.360 --> 2:40:38.960 start posing for it now, and seconds later the other 2:40:39.000 --> 2:40:43.440 fellow ranges it's a twist stop, it's a twist stop. Um, 2:40:43.480 --> 2:40:46.080 thank you for all of that. I I just I 2:40:46.160 --> 2:40:51.680 try to I take the music very seriously. I tried 2:40:51.720 --> 2:40:54.560 to present what I can, you know, in the best 2:40:54.560 --> 2:40:57.840 way possible. I mean, um, I try not to be 2:40:58.040 --> 2:41:01.039 self important about it, though I'm sort of the conduit 2:41:01.360 --> 2:41:04.640 lucky enough to get to do this, and you know, 2:41:04.760 --> 2:41:08.240 I'm in all humility. I want people to understand it 2:41:09.360 --> 2:41:12.120 like if I was if I was at Babe Ruth, 2:41:12.520 --> 2:41:15.680 I would probably look in the mirror and go, yeah, 2:41:15.800 --> 2:41:18.560 you're doing pretty good today. You know. I'm not Babe Ruth, 2:41:18.600 --> 2:41:21.680 but I'm I can only imagine what that must have 2:41:21.760 --> 2:41:26.160 been like to be that guy. You know. Um, there's that. 2:41:27.120 --> 2:41:31.840 There's that I can say, personality. Duty to yourself to 2:41:31.959 --> 2:41:38.000 try and then you owe it to everyone, especially yourself too, 2:41:38.840 --> 2:41:42.400 to give that a hundred percent effort to make sure 2:41:42.440 --> 2:41:45.720 that you always operate that way. Listen. I grew up 2:41:45.760 --> 2:41:48.400 in the era when baseball stars were heroes. I was 2:41:48.440 --> 2:41:51.720 even there when Roger Merris in his sixty one and 2:41:51.879 --> 2:41:55.240 Babe Ruth is a legend. Yeah, I was there at 2:41:55.320 --> 2:41:57.840 Yankee Stadium. I can tell you the whole story where 2:41:57.840 --> 2:41:59.800 I was sitting while did the ball goes? Really some 2:42:00.080 --> 2:42:06.680 them October one. But music superseded baseball for so many 2:42:06.760 --> 2:42:10.680 of us. And I'm not lying whatsoever. I would say 2:42:10.760 --> 2:42:14.959 most boomers would say, you're bigger than Babe Ruth. Babe 2:42:15.040 --> 2:42:18.720 Ruth it is seven fourteen or fifteen home runs and 2:42:18.720 --> 2:42:20.560 he had a great career. I don't wanna take anything, 2:42:20.840 --> 2:42:24.360 but your songs have lived on for fifty years and 2:42:24.440 --> 2:42:28.160 will continue to live and affect people in a three 2:42:28.200 --> 2:42:32.960 dimensional way that an athlete cannot reach. A human being. Well, 2:42:33.000 --> 2:42:35.480 I hope to always kind of live up to that, 2:42:35.600 --> 2:42:37.560 you know what you're saying. I I do try to 2:42:37.600 --> 2:42:41.360 write songs now, and of course there's always that specter 2:42:41.560 --> 2:42:43.880 of you know, probad Mary just sitting there kind of 2:42:43.959 --> 2:42:49.200 laughing at me. And in some ways that's almost another person, 2:42:49.879 --> 2:42:52.480 you know. I think that's a device. By the way 2:42:52.520 --> 2:42:56.879 some of us use two what's the word release yourself 2:42:56.879 --> 2:42:59.200 from that guy, so that I can look at him 2:42:59.200 --> 2:43:02.400 and go, hey, he was pretty was your He was 2:43:02.440 --> 2:43:06.480 pretty good? You know, didn't you used to be John Fogerty. 2:43:06.480 --> 2:43:09.240 Oh yeah. The older I get, the better I was. 2:43:11.840 --> 2:43:15.320 It's all of that stuff because you you tried. You know, 2:43:15.400 --> 2:43:19.800 at the time, I know my intensity and and even now, um, 2:43:20.120 --> 2:43:22.680 I don't. I don't think I've hit that mark in 2:43:22.680 --> 2:43:26.000 the last five years, although I don't know. Maybe we've 2:43:26.000 --> 2:43:30.039 been in the Promised Lands. Pretty good song. Um you 2:43:30.040 --> 2:43:32.560 know what I'm saying, though, it's you. You have to 2:43:32.640 --> 2:43:36.320 be able to have a little humor about it and 2:43:36.400 --> 2:43:41.279 laugh at yourself trying to do that because others and 2:43:41.360 --> 2:43:44.199 by that shadow that won't let me have a good time, 2:43:44.840 --> 2:43:48.600 because I think that's the undoing of At some point 2:43:49.120 --> 2:43:52.080 the things deteriorate and you can't hit that home run. 2:43:52.560 --> 2:43:56.120 But um are you know, artists and writers and that 2:43:56.200 --> 2:43:58.800 sort of thing. We can keep going, but there is 2:43:58.879 --> 2:44:02.600 that if you keep struggling and don't have give yourself 2:44:02.680 --> 2:44:07.000 some kind of release from it, some humor. You know. Um, 2:44:07.080 --> 2:44:09.800 I think you I don't know if it's arrogant or 2:44:09.959 --> 2:44:13.480 just futile, and you to the outside world, you won't 2:44:13.480 --> 2:44:15.680 look very nice, you know, what I'm saying. I know 2:44:15.760 --> 2:44:19.160 exactly what you're saying. You know, you have to survive. 2:44:19.440 --> 2:44:22.360 There can't be the person that people expect you to be. 2:44:22.480 --> 2:44:26.440 For every day. People go through changes, they become somebody different, 2:44:26.480 --> 2:44:29.520 they learn things, they're a different person. I mean, it's 2:44:29.520 --> 2:44:31.800 like Bob Dylan says when they talk about the songs 2:44:31.840 --> 2:44:34.040 of the at Least six, he says, I can't do 2:44:34.120 --> 2:44:36.120 that anymore. He says, you know, I have to do 2:44:36.200 --> 2:44:40.040 something different. You kind of covered it, so there you go. Right, Okay, 2:44:40.280 --> 2:44:42.160 we can talk for days. We want to talk more 2:44:42.600 --> 2:44:45.320 about credence and the songs, etcetera. But once again, thanks 2:44:45.320 --> 2:44:48.040 for taking the time. All right, Bob, thank you enjoying 2:44:48.040 --> 2:44:51.080 this very nut. You bet me too. Until next time. 2:44:51.360 --> 2:44:52.680 This is Bob left six