1
00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:05,480
Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

2
00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,840
Speaker 2: So now they got two women, both shot in the

3
00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,760
Speaker 2: back of the head with forty caliber bullets, and they

4
00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,120
Speaker 2: realize that now they have a serial color on their hands.

5
00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,560
Speaker 3: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

6
00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:32,720
Speaker 3: in Austin, Texas.

7
00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:33,800
Speaker 1: I'm also the co.

8
00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,199
Speaker 3: Host of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and

9
00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,000
Speaker 3: throughout my career, research for my many audio and book

10
00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,720
Speaker 3: projects has taken me around the world. On Wicked Words,

11
00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,240
Speaker 3: I sit down with the people I've met along the way,

12
00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:52,839
Speaker 3: amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, and podcasters who have investigated and

13
00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,600
Speaker 3: reported on notorious true crime cases. This is about the

14
00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,320
Speaker 3: choices writers make, both good and bad, and it's a

15
00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:05,880
Speaker 3: deep dive into the unpublished details behind their stories. On

16
00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,959
Speaker 3: this week's episode of Wicked Words, we're traveling to the

17
00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:13,560
Speaker 3: Texas border town of Laredo, when four vulnerable women are murdered.

18
00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,520
Speaker 3: Police suspected that a well respected US Border Patrol agent

19
00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,120
Speaker 3: has turned into a serial killer. Author Rick Jervis tells

20
00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,520
Speaker 3: me the story behind his book The Devil Behind the Badge,

21
00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,720
Speaker 3: The Horrifying twelve Days of the Border Patrol Serial Killer.

22
00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,679
Speaker 3: Where does it make sense for you to start the story.

23
00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,360
Speaker 2: Well, it takes place right in Laredo, so we could

24
00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,720
Speaker 2: start there. And also San Bernando Avenue is a major

25
00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,200
Speaker 2: character like in the book also, so we could talk

26
00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,240
Speaker 2: about that as well and give a backdrop.

27
00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,520
Speaker 3: I mean, normally I say, what was Laredo like in

28
00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:50,960
Speaker 3: blah blah blah, But you know, whatever the year is,

29
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,840
Speaker 3: but this is so recent. What is Laredo like now?

30
00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,520
Speaker 3: Unless things have dramatically changed since twenty eighteen.

31
00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,720
Speaker 2: Laredo's a really interesting place. You know, it's right on

32
00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,120
Speaker 2: the order. It has a lot of history. It was

33
00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,760
Speaker 2: founded in seventeen fifty five, first by Spain and then

34
00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,639
Speaker 2: later became part of Mexico, became part of the US

35
00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,280
Speaker 2: in eighteen forty eight, and it always had the sort

36
00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,640
Speaker 2: of reputation of being this kind of rough and tumble

37
00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,280
Speaker 2: outpost right because it was right on the border. So

38
00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,280
Speaker 2: it drew a lot of like bundidos and outlaws trying

39
00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,240
Speaker 2: to sort of run away from the actual law. It

40
00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,280
Speaker 2: had a lot of Apache Indian attacks early in the day.

41
00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,960
Speaker 2: And it's probably most known as as a sort of

42
00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:34,239
Speaker 2: backdrop of select Larry mcmultrie novels, you know, like Streets

43
00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,959
Speaker 2: of Laredo and so like Lunesome Dove, but more sort

44
00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:43,480
Speaker 2: of contemporarily. Today, it's a sort of bustling border city.

45
00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:45,920
Speaker 2: You know, it's home to about two hundred and sixty

46
00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:52,240
Speaker 2: thousand people. There's something like fifteen thousand trucks crisscrossing. It's

47
00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,519
Speaker 2: like port of entry every day. It's a major overland port, right.

48
00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,959
Speaker 2: It basically ferries some three hundred billion dollars worth of

49
00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,680
Speaker 2: gives every year, about half of all US Mexico trade

50
00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,200
Speaker 2: goes through Laredo. But it's also you know, it also

51
00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,400
Speaker 2: obviously draws drug cartels and human and drug smuggling, and

52
00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,200
Speaker 2: some of that product you know, unfortunately leaks out into

53
00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,200
Speaker 2: the streets of Laredo. Laredo has been kind of struggling

54
00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:21,880
Speaker 2: with a drug problem there for generations. You know, black

55
00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,880
Speaker 2: tar heroin basically made it appearance in the nineteen seventies

56
00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,160
Speaker 2: and it's like still a problem today. But it's also

57
00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,560
Speaker 2: a very safe town, you know, because you've got like

58
00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:34,160
Speaker 2: border patrol there, you got DEA operating there, you got

59
00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,440
Speaker 2: Homeland security investigators, so you got all of these sort

60
00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,640
Speaker 2: of law enforcement agents operating there, and like the cartels,

61
00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,040
Speaker 2: no better than to like set up shop and do

62
00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,120
Speaker 2: anything done there, So they tend to bypass with Laredo.

63
00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,520
Speaker 2: So it's it's like a relatively safe city, you know,

64
00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,200
Speaker 2: home to about. It basically has something like ten to

65
00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,960
Speaker 2: twelve homicides a year, so the murder rate is is

66
00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,000
Speaker 2: like relatively low compared to other Texas cities or even

67
00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:01,080
Speaker 2: across the US.

68
00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,000
Speaker 3: Who is the person do you think that is attracted

69
00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,160
Speaker 3: to being a border patrol agent? Why not be a

70
00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,160
Speaker 3: police officer in Laredo or work for DEA? Is there

71
00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,120
Speaker 3: kind of a type of person who would feel passionate

72
00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:14,160
Speaker 3: about this type of job.

73
00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,640
Speaker 2: Border patrol is kind of a coveted position there along

74
00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,560
Speaker 2: the border. First of all, like pays well, it pays,

75
00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,160
Speaker 2: it pays better, significantly better, like in some cases than

76
00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:28,200
Speaker 2: sheriff's deputies or local police, and so people along the border.

77
00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,160
Speaker 2: I've actually met people who are from Laredo who are

78
00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,640
Speaker 2: actually Border patrol agents who said that they basically came

79
00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,320
Speaker 2: up the ranks. Maybe they were like a police officer

80
00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,120
Speaker 2: for a couple of years, but their goal was always

81
00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,280
Speaker 2: to be border patrol agent. Because they have this long

82
00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,360
Speaker 2: history there. They're the ones who own like the really

83
00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,599
Speaker 2: nice houses down in Laredo, and so it draws a

84
00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,320
Speaker 2: lot of people who are interested in like law enforcement,

85
00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,640
Speaker 2: but are interested in kind of stepping up to the

86
00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,360
Speaker 2: sort of next level financially. It also draws a lot

87
00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,320
Speaker 2: of former like sort of military people, right, because there's

88
00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,120
Speaker 2: a lot of it's a lot of parallels there, right,

89
00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,520
Speaker 2: because you're basically asked to go out and sort of

90
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:13,000
Speaker 2: patrol in these kind of remote areas. You're armed, there's

91
00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,880
Speaker 2: a sense of camaraderie with some of the other agents.

92
00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,920
Speaker 2: So more and more throughout the years, really, but recently,

93
00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,119
Speaker 2: you know, you're getting a lot of people coming from

94
00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:27,920
Speaker 2: conflicts in like Afghanistan and like Iraq who come back

95
00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,520
Speaker 2: to Stateside and are interested in border patrols.

96
00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,000
Speaker 3: Now, I know you said eight to twelve murders a year,

97
00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,600
Speaker 3: which seems very low for a city that size.

98
00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:37,120
Speaker 2: Correct.

99
00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:41,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, tell me how active the sex work trade is

100
00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,240
Speaker 3: in Laredo in twenty eighteen, since that's sort of the

101
00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,240
Speaker 3: community we're focusing on, as well as the folks who

102
00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:49,280
Speaker 3: work at border patrol.

103
00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, the sex worker community is pretty active there and

104
00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,440
Speaker 2: it has been for for like a long time. So

105
00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:01,040
Speaker 2: like Laredo has its history of sex workers working there.

106
00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,720
Speaker 2: I found articles dating back to like the early nineteen

107
00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,800
Speaker 2: hundreds where kind of turned the century, prostitutes were working

108
00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,200
Speaker 2: in these in these like sort of bordellos along some

109
00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:15,400
Speaker 2: Bonanando Avenue. Since it's always drawn these these these type

110
00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,360
Speaker 2: of crowds of like rum runners and fugitive and lawmen

111
00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,360
Speaker 2: and so like bonitos bordellos brought it up to service

112
00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,880
Speaker 2: a lot of these folks. In twenty eighteen, it was

113
00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,719
Speaker 2: like pretty vibrant. You know, There's there's quite a number

114
00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,479
Speaker 2: of sex workers working along there, and they tend to

115
00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,120
Speaker 2: congregate along this one stretch called some Betanando Avenue, and

116
00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,080
Speaker 2: some Benando Avenue obviously plays like a really big role

117
00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,760
Speaker 2: in my book. It's it's where all these four victims

118
00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,360
Speaker 2: lived and worked and where a lot of the sex

119
00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:50,480
Speaker 2: workers congregate. But the sex workers that work in Laredo,

120
00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:52,880
Speaker 2: as far as I could tell, almost to a tea,

121
00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,119
Speaker 2: almost every single one that I met down there were

122
00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,599
Speaker 2: doing it because they also had these really sort of

123
00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,039
Speaker 2: like debilitating sub since abuse disorders. All of them were

124
00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,960
Speaker 2: struggling with drug addictions. Again mostly black tar heroin, but

125
00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:11,040
Speaker 2: also cracked cocaine and like a number of other different drugs.

126
00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,560
Speaker 2: But it was very vibrant down there. In twenty eighteen.

127
00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,920
Speaker 3: When I started learning about the Long Island serial case

128
00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:25,160
Speaker 3: Gilgo Beach case, I had not known that with some

129
00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,120
Speaker 3: escorts they will have drivers go with them for safety.

130
00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,000
Speaker 3: Is there any sort of safety with the women we're

131
00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,840
Speaker 3: talking about in this story or is this they're on

132
00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,960
Speaker 3: the street on San Fernando Avenue and people are stopping

133
00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,960
Speaker 3: and picking them up. Is there any level of safety

134
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:43,920
Speaker 3: at all with them?

135
00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,040
Speaker 2: No? That's like a really interesting part that I learned

136
00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,920
Speaker 2: about the sex trade there in downtown Laredo, especially around

137
00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:55,800
Speaker 2: Sambernando Avenue, is that they don't they don't really have

138
00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:00,280
Speaker 2: pimps per se, there is no sort of protection. For

139
00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,240
Speaker 2: the most part, sex workers, along asime bet now theo

140
00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,880
Speaker 2: are generally on their own. I did actually meet a

141
00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,600
Speaker 2: couple of folks. It was like a couple of guys

142
00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,240
Speaker 2: who I would describe more as kind of like hangers on,

143
00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,920
Speaker 2: just folks who who like to sort of orbit around

144
00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,640
Speaker 2: the sex trade down there, And they were looked at

145
00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,280
Speaker 2: as kind of like big brothers and like friends to

146
00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,280
Speaker 2: some of these sex workers. They basically helped them out

147
00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:32,160
Speaker 2: with scheduling or sort of connecting with different clients, and

148
00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,000
Speaker 2: they would do it for you know, just a party

149
00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,439
Speaker 2: with them, or to get a little bit of the

150
00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,880
Speaker 2: heroin from them. Later they call it chiva, so they

151
00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,520
Speaker 2: would do it just for like a hit or two

152
00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,440
Speaker 2: of like chiba later. For the most part, there's a

153
00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,400
Speaker 2: real lack of actual protection for any of these sex workers.

154
00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:53,560
Speaker 2: They're not generally escorted anywhere, and they're usually on their own.

155
00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:55,959
Speaker 3: Well, tell me now where we go. Do we talk

156
00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,200
Speaker 3: about the victims in a chronological order, or do we

157
00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,160
Speaker 3: talk about the we haven't named him yet, or do

158
00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:03,920
Speaker 3: you want to just sort of unfold it a little

159
00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:05,560
Speaker 3: bit like a mystery. It's kind of up to you

160
00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:06,800
Speaker 3: what your comfort level is.

161
00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:08,839
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the victims. I think that's actually a

162
00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:09,400
Speaker 2: good place.

163
00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,520
Speaker 3: Okay, So victim number one, let's talk about what you

164
00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,400
Speaker 3: know about her and then the circumstances that have her

165
00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,480
Speaker 3: meeting Juan David Ortiz, who is the offender in this case.

166
00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,080
Speaker 2: Melissa Ramidez was the first victim. She was twenty nine

167
00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:28,439
Speaker 2: years old when she was killed, so she's one of

168
00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,840
Speaker 2: the younger victims. I got to know her family first.

169
00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,760
Speaker 2: Christina Benavidez, so like Melissa's mom, and she lives in

170
00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,880
Speaker 2: a in a place called Rio Bravo, and that's sort

171
00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,280
Speaker 2: of a suburb of like downtown Laredo. It's just a

172
00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,320
Speaker 2: couple of miles outside. It's known as a colonia, which

173
00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,440
Speaker 2: is sort of really kind of like kind of poor

174
00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,640
Speaker 2: suburb of Laredo. And I went out there early on

175
00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,840
Speaker 2: and got to meet Christina, and she she really opened

176
00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,480
Speaker 2: up to me and told me about about like Melissa

177
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,000
Speaker 2: growing up. She was one of four children and Christina

178
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,319
Speaker 2: Benavidez was basically raising them like her own. And when

179
00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,200
Speaker 2: I interviewed her, it was about a week after Melissa

180
00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,079
Speaker 2: was found dead, and I was talking to like Christina,

181
00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,600
Speaker 2: she had these dark classes on and she would look

182
00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,120
Speaker 2: down and she told me these stories and like we

183
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,440
Speaker 2: had to stop kind of repeatedly because she kept crying.

184
00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,640
Speaker 2: She told me about sort of Melissa growing up. She

185
00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,440
Speaker 2: was fiercely sort of protective of her younger brother Sasad,

186
00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,680
Speaker 2: and they were they basically went they went sort of

187
00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:37,480
Speaker 2: everywhere together. And then somewhere around middle school is when

188
00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,840
Speaker 2: she when sort of Melissa starts to stray, and she

189
00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,840
Speaker 2: starts staying out longer. She's hanging out with friends. Sometimes

190
00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:50,560
Speaker 2: overnight she begins popping pills, mostly his annex, which she takes,

191
00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,960
Speaker 2: which which she finds from other people, and like develops

192
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,640
Speaker 2: this addiction to crack cocaine, and shortly after that basically

193
00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,640
Speaker 2: drops out of high school and starts doing sex work

194
00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:06,120
Speaker 2: to sort of support her habit. One thing Christina didn't

195
00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,880
Speaker 2: tell me because she either didn't know or was in

196
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,520
Speaker 2: like denial over it, but that I was told by

197
00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,440
Speaker 2: several other people, including Melissa's sister in law, Gracie, who

198
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,720
Speaker 2: was very close to her, that when she was around

199
00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:24,360
Speaker 2: middle school age, Melissa was sexually assaulted by an older

200
00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,440
Speaker 2: family member, and Gracie kind of points to that period

201
00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,320
Speaker 2: when everything starts to really fall apart for her. So

202
00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,920
Speaker 2: she's she's having trouble at school. Christina's called in one

203
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:41,200
Speaker 2: day because she goes to the school and the school

204
00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,199
Speaker 2: counsil tells her that that so Melissa has been slicing

205
00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,520
Speaker 2: her arms, so she's hurting herself. Also, they take it

206
00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:51,520
Speaker 2: to a therapist and she's diagnosed with by polarism and

207
00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,520
Speaker 2: sort of prescribes pills. I think it was prozac at

208
00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:56,880
Speaker 2: that point, and like Christina comes home and like she

209
00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,160
Speaker 2: she actually told me later she was like really surprised

210
00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,920
Speaker 2: because she had no that Melissa was struggling with taking

211
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,080
Speaker 2: pills and taking medication. And so they take it to

212
00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,360
Speaker 2: a doctor and she actually prescribes more more pills, and

213
00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,440
Speaker 2: she she kind of felt distinctively that that wasn't like

214
00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,520
Speaker 2: the right route for her, but she hopes that the

215
00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,920
Speaker 2: actual pills could get her better. Well, Melissa just gets

216
00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,400
Speaker 2: worse and worse, ends up dropping out of school and

217
00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,840
Speaker 2: joining other sex workers along alongside Better Nando, and just

218
00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,600
Speaker 2: lives from like hotel room to hotel room out there.

219
00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,520
Speaker 3: So how do we know that Melissa goes missing and

220
00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,760
Speaker 3: is in trouble as who finds out first the women

221
00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,400
Speaker 3: that she works alongside, or is it a family member

222
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,000
Speaker 3: who reports her missing or what happens just a.

223
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:45,880
Speaker 2: Couple of days before she's she's actually found dead. Christina Benavidez,

224
00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:50,840
Speaker 2: Melissa's mom, gets in the car with Melissa's two young children,

225
00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:55,120
Speaker 2: who Christina has has actual custody of, and drives along

226
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,320
Speaker 2: time Better Now they're looking for her, like she's actually

227
00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,160
Speaker 2: looking for her. She really wants to go to the

228
00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,680
Speaker 2: movies with her. I think it was Labor Day. She's

229
00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,480
Speaker 2: actually driving around trying to find like sort of Melissa

230
00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,040
Speaker 2: to have this day at the movies with Melissa's children.

231
00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,120
Speaker 2: Drives around and cannot find her and this and so

232
00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,720
Speaker 2: and so she like starts to worry. Christina told me

233
00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,480
Speaker 2: she was always worrying, Like she was constantly worrying because

234
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,120
Speaker 2: Melissa would would go missing and just be out of

235
00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,520
Speaker 2: pocket for days, sometimes weeks, and so it basically was

236
00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:27,240
Speaker 2: always troubling to her when she would just go kind

237
00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,920
Speaker 2: of like radio silence. So this was another instance of

238
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,360
Speaker 2: so like Melissa not being found. And so one of

239
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,640
Speaker 2: the people she was living with at the time, Emily

240
00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,240
Speaker 2: but Ela, who Melissa was was sort of roommates with

241
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,560
Speaker 2: at the time, had a big fight with her like

242
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,880
Speaker 2: the night before, doesn't doesn't actually hear from her the

243
00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,520
Speaker 2: following day or the following day after that, and so

244
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:54,640
Speaker 2: she starts to get worried. Melissa's body is actually found

245
00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,120
Speaker 2: in this in this rural stretch of Webb County, like

246
00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:02,240
Speaker 2: northwest of Laredo's by a passerby who calls it in.

247
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,720
Speaker 2: Calls in the actual Webb County sheriff's office who actually

248
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,400
Speaker 2: goes out there and starts the investigation. And that's what

249
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,360
Speaker 2: Melissa's bodies found. She had been shot several times at

250
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,600
Speaker 2: like close range behind the head. But that's all they got, Like,

251
00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,240
Speaker 2: all they have is sort of Melissa's body and a

252
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,640
Speaker 2: couple of forty caliber casings nearby.

253
00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:24,960
Speaker 3: Did they do a rape kit and all of that,

254
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:26,520
Speaker 3: Were there signs of a sexual assault?

255
00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,160
Speaker 2: There was not. That's something which the sort of medical

256
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,520
Speaker 2: examiner looked at closely and basically determined that there wasn't

257
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,280
Speaker 2: any of that. And so they were just going on

258
00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,000
Speaker 2: the sort of premise that she was taken out there

259
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,360
Speaker 2: and shot twice in the head. The thing about Melissa too,

260
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,160
Speaker 2: she was also known as kind of a hot head,

261
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,200
Speaker 2: like she had hot temper where she basically displayed sometimes

262
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,640
Speaker 2: two friends like she was known to get into fistfights

263
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,200
Speaker 2: with friends over the smallest things, sometimes with just people

264
00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,040
Speaker 2: on the street and other times with clients also. So

265
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,360
Speaker 2: the initial assumption, at least among some of her friends

266
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,600
Speaker 2: and fellow sex workers was that she she basically had

267
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,920
Speaker 2: a falling out with a client. They got into a

268
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,640
Speaker 2: verbal spat and things went sideways, and that's why she

269
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,080
Speaker 2: was shot and killed. So that was a sort of

270
00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,840
Speaker 2: wide spread assumption among some of her friends. But the

271
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:25,640
Speaker 2: sheriff's office launches a investigation into it, and as is

272
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:30,000
Speaker 2: protocol sometimes down there, with high profile cases or even

273
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:34,760
Speaker 2: most sort of murder cases, the web County Sheriff's office

274
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,920
Speaker 2: will call in somebody from the Texas Rangers to basically

275
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:42,160
Speaker 2: assist them. And the Texas Rangers they have more resources,

276
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:45,320
Speaker 2: they have more money, and they tend to be especially

277
00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:50,200
Speaker 2: trained for things like murder and cartail violence. So the

278
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,360
Speaker 2: lead investigator to the Webbs County Sheriff's office, this person

279
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,720
Speaker 2: by the name of Captain, got their own, got their own,

280
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,120
Speaker 2: calls in EJ. Salinas, who is the main Texas Ranger

281
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,880
Speaker 2: for that region, and together cut it on and Selena's

282
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,240
Speaker 2: launched this this sort of investigation into who this person

283
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,480
Speaker 2: is and why she was killed.

284
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,760
Speaker 3: So they're taking it seriously, which surprises me considering, you know,

285
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,320
Speaker 3: we're talking awful lot about police officers not being particularly

286
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,880
Speaker 3: interested in the murders of sex workers, but it sounds

287
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,320
Speaker 3: like that wasn't the case here, So that's good. They're

288
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,600
Speaker 3: taking the case seriously, and of course no one's picked

289
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,800
Speaker 3: up on this yet that this will become the work

290
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:28,720
Speaker 3: of a serial killer.

291
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:30,760
Speaker 2: I was sort of interested in that too, Like I

292
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,040
Speaker 2: I was interested in how serious they actually took it

293
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,600
Speaker 2: early on, and from everything that I found, like they

294
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,200
Speaker 2: did take it, you know, extremely serious as soon as

295
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,680
Speaker 2: it happened. There aren't a ton of murders in Laredo,

296
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,040
Speaker 2: so this one would seems so so brutal, you know,

297
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:50,800
Speaker 2: the sort of close range shots like in the head

298
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,240
Speaker 2: kind of execution style, really like prompting them to take

299
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,640
Speaker 2: it serious right away. And so they actually launched this

300
00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,080
Speaker 2: pretty intense of investigation into it right away. Obviously, like

301
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,000
Speaker 2: they don't know that this is the work of a

302
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,760
Speaker 2: serial killer who is planning on killing again, but they

303
00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,760
Speaker 2: like take it as serious as possible. They branch out

304
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:17,000
Speaker 2: through the Samberternando corridor talking to folks. They basically find

305
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,679
Speaker 2: out soon after who this person is. They're able to

306
00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,960
Speaker 2: actually identify her through fingerprints and other methods, and they

307
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,040
Speaker 2: like learn early on that she's a sex worker working

308
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:32,520
Speaker 2: along some better Nando avenue. They basically begin to spread

309
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,679
Speaker 2: out throughout this corridor, talking to other sex workers, talking

310
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:37,639
Speaker 2: to people who may have known her, people who have

311
00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,800
Speaker 2: seen them who have seen her last, trying to figure

312
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:42,480
Speaker 2: out what exactly happened to her.

313
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,360
Speaker 3: And I think he's say in the book that they

314
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,600
Speaker 3: end up reaching out eventually to the next three victims

315
00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:51,440
Speaker 3: because they're all sex workers.

316
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:52,000
Speaker 1: Is that right?

317
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,560
Speaker 2: Yeah? Early on, Clauding loydra is one of the top

318
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,760
Speaker 2: people which they're interested in talking to. Clauding Loida was

319
00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,040
Speaker 2: really close with so like Melissa, they were known to

320
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:05,200
Speaker 2: sort of hang out in the same sort of motels

321
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,440
Speaker 2: along Samberanando Avenue. They were known to even share clients

322
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,480
Speaker 2: now and then Claudine Lola was older. She's she's forty two,

323
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,439
Speaker 2: so she's kind of looked at as a sort of older,

324
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:20,280
Speaker 2: wiser sex worker out there. Melissa is kind of the younger,

325
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,359
Speaker 2: like hot headed worker, and so Claudine kind of like

326
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,359
Speaker 2: takes her under her her wing, and they were they

327
00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,560
Speaker 2: were actually pretty tight. So investigative zero in and like

328
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:32,920
Speaker 2: Claudie Louila right away.

329
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:34,879
Speaker 1: So they talked to Claudine.

330
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,720
Speaker 3: What does she say that you know, does she give

331
00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,360
Speaker 3: any insight on clients or any theories about what happened?

332
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,399
Speaker 2: So they don't talk to actual Claudine. She's on their

333
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,960
Speaker 2: their list of like people of interest, and they're actively

334
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,920
Speaker 2: looking for her. They're they're they're like trying to locate her.

335
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,159
Speaker 2: So you can imagine it's not the easiest thing to

336
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,440
Speaker 2: like sort of locate somebody in this world because lots

337
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,680
Speaker 2: of time, like they may not even have a smell phone.

338
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,280
Speaker 2: They're very transient. They're bouncing around from my people's couch

339
00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,840
Speaker 2: to hotel rooms to somewhere else, and so they're like

340
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,520
Speaker 2: actively trying to look at her. Claudine is one of

341
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:14,440
Speaker 2: like four or five names that Captain Cardan has on

342
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,680
Speaker 2: his list of people of interest, and they're actively trying

343
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:23,159
Speaker 2: to find Claudine when Claudine also ends up as a victim.

344
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,240
Speaker 3: Similar circumstances, gunshot, similar location.

345
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,399
Speaker 2: Claudine Leuta's body is actually found just a couple of

346
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:34,960
Speaker 2: miles from where Melissa's Body's found, also this sort of

347
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:40,480
Speaker 2: rural stretch of northwest Webb County. Similarly, she's found like

348
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,639
Speaker 2: on the side of the highway with a gunshot wound

349
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,359
Speaker 2: to the back of the head. But what was different

350
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,000
Speaker 2: about Claudine is that she was still alive somehow kind

351
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,480
Speaker 2: of miraculously. So she was shot once in the back

352
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 2: of the head and she managed to crawl and drag

353
00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,840
Speaker 2: herself to the shoulder of the actual highway where she

354
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,520
Speaker 2: could be better found, and sure enough, the truck driver

355
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,119
Speaker 2: passes by, sees her stops and she's actually still alive,

356
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:13,320
Speaker 2: like she's incoherent, like she's asking for water, saying she's

357
00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,480
Speaker 2: like really thirsty, and she's mumbling stuff. The truck driver

358
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,280
Speaker 2: calls nine one one, and this ambulance comes out as

359
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,560
Speaker 2: well as deputies come out, and then ambulance comes up,

360
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,760
Speaker 2: scoops her on and raises her to the actual nearest hospital,

361
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,160
Speaker 2: and she's still alive all the way to the hospital.

362
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,159
Speaker 2: I actually interviewed the paramedic who took her, and she

363
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,280
Speaker 2: said Clouding was actually being kind of combative, which is

364
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,520
Speaker 2: which is somewhat natural, he said, for like these types

365
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,960
Speaker 2: of victims, he sees it a lot, like they're really

366
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,359
Speaker 2: confused and disoriented. And she was swinging in her arms

367
00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,119
Speaker 2: to the point that they had to like hold her

368
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,200
Speaker 2: down and basically strap her down. And he's telling her,

369
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 2: you know, just to take it easy, that somebody's going

370
00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,320
Speaker 2: to take care of her, and they're still operating, like

371
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,600
Speaker 2: under the assumption he assumed that she got hit by

372
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,200
Speaker 2: a car and left them like he didn't know that

373
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 2: this was a gunshot until they take her to the hospital.

374
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 2: They wheel her into the hospital and the doctor comes

375
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:13,159
Speaker 2: out maybe twenty thirty minutes later saying that Claudine passed away,

376
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,640
Speaker 2: that she actually died, and that it wasn't a auto accident.

377
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,639
Speaker 2: That they found a bullets lug in the back of

378
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,919
Speaker 2: her head. So now this information is basically relayed to

379
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 2: Captain Goddown and E. J. Salinas, the Texas ranger, who

380
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,119
Speaker 2: are at the scene looking at the crime scene, and

381
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 2: they noticed that there's a couple of casings there also

382
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:40,040
Speaker 2: forty caliber, just just like the first incident. And so

383
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 2: now they got two women, both of them sex workers,

384
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:44,880
Speaker 2: both of them shot in the back of the head

385
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 2: with forty caliber bullets. And they realized that now they

386
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,440
Speaker 2: have a serial killer on their hands.

387
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,920
Speaker 3: And not just two sex workers. Two sex workers who

388
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 3: were intimate friends. I mean, they knew each other very well.

389
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 3: I don't know how big the industry is in Laredo

390
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 3: at the time, but you know, these are friends who

391
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 3: knew each other really well, and I'm sure they took

392
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 3: that into consideration absolutely.

393
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 2: And it's not only that, like they knew each other well,

394
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,120
Speaker 2: but that that, like investigators were actively trying to find Claudine,

395
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,199
Speaker 2: they also found that very very interesting that that this

396
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 2: is somebody that they were trying to find to interview

397
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,640
Speaker 2: about about sort of Melissa's death, and now she also

398
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 2: ends up dead.

399
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,440
Speaker 3: When Claudine is waving her arms and you know, being

400
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 3: combative in the ambulance, is she saying anything that can

401
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 3: be at all useful to the Texas Rangers or the sheriff.

402
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 2: So that's what the Sheriff's office asked this paramedic later

403
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,959
Speaker 2: ray He basically could understand what she was saying. She

404
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 2: was muttering something, but it didn't make any sense to him.

405
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 2: So nothing came out of what she said in those

406
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:59,879
Speaker 2: in like those final moments. Unfortunately, you don't know.

407
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 3: I was thinking when you were talking about the scene,

408
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 3: and you know, she's dragging herself to the shoulder and

409
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,439
Speaker 3: trying to get attention, and she's bleeding and exhausted and thirsty,

410
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,400
Speaker 3: and I was thinking, September, I mean, in Texas is awful.

411
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 3: It's sometimes the hottest, it can be hotter than August.

412
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,360
Speaker 3: It must have been just her will to live must

413
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 3: have been incredible to be able to do that in

414
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 3: the desert.

415
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 1: I mean, gosh, how horrific for.

416
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,120
Speaker 2: Her, especially on the border. You know, the border gets

417
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 2: really hot. It's like a solid ten fifteen degrees hotter

418
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,640
Speaker 2: than what you feel in Austin or Dallas or Houston.

419
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 2: And so yeah, it was like really hot at the time,

420
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 2: and her will to live and how she fought it

421
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 2: all the way to the end was just remarkable. You know,

422
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 2: she gets shot in the back of the head and

423
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 2: just manages to kind of hang around until somebody picks

424
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 2: her up. The actual paramedic thought she actually had a

425
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 2: chance because he basically stopped the bleeding and brought it

426
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,880
Speaker 2: to the hospital, but unfortunately she just expired soon after that.

427
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 3: Do they find that both Melissa and Claudeen have heroin

428
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 3: or some sort of drug in their system at the time.

429
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, the medical examiner finds out out later Melissa had

430
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 2: crack cocaine in her system and Claudine had had pretty

431
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 2: large amounts of opiate's mostly heroin in her system. Claudine

432
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 2: had a very sort of debilitating heroin addiction. It really

433
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 2: really was really strong with her and kept her on

434
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,400
Speaker 2: the streets for like a long time.

435
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 3: Are their friends in industry. Are they able to say

436
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 3: who they thought they were last with? They have clients?

437
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 3: I mean, how did they even begin investigating who the

438
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 3: last person was with these two women?

439
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 2: They had some fairly good leads. Melissa, like I said earlier,

440
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 2: was with Emily Varella last. And she's also pretty interesting.

441
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 2: She's a transgender woman who lived and worked on San Bernardo.

442
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 2: She was friends with like so like Melissa for you years,

443
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 2: for like a long time. They met in high school

444
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 2: and like stayed friends over the years. Emily and Melissa

445
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 2: were sharing a room at the Pan American Courts Motel

446
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 2: right on San Bernando, and so and so sheriff's deputies

447
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,439
Speaker 2: and captain got that own quickly roll up to like

448
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 2: Emily and question her and like interview her. Emily tells

449
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 2: them everything she knew, which is that they were there

450
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 2: like the night before. She was kind of upset with

451
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 2: with sort of like Melissa because she she wasn't like

452
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 2: sort of earning her keep and she was really messy.

453
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 2: Emily was on sort of probation because she had been

454
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: arrested earlier, and I kind of needed to stay clean

455
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 2: and sort of Melissa was violating a lot of that

456
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 2: she was smoking crack in the actual room and stuff

457
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 2: that could really get sort of Emily like in trouble.

458
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 2: And so Emily was kind of upset with her and

459
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 2: had give her like a ton lashing like the night

460
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 2: before and felt obviously really bad about that later, but

461
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 2: that's all she knew that like the last time she

462
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 2: had seen her was when Melissa walked out of their

463
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 2: sort of motel room at like around like midnight the

464
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 2: day before she was found. Nobody had actually seen her

465
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 2: after that. And Claudine also had a couple of people

466
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 2: which investigators thought were really close to her, including like

467
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 2: an ex boyfriend of hers called Chong Cho N And

468
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 2: Chong was this person of interests early on. There's this

469
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 2: really interesting scene in my book where sheriff's deputies go

470
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 2: to Cholnes's house like to try to talk to him

471
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 2: about about some like Claudine's murder. Chong has a long

472
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: rap sheet he's been he's been in out of jail. Also,

473
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 2: he also has a very sort of debilitating substance abuse disorder.

474
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: There's a swarm of deputies waiting for him at like

475
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,360
Speaker 2: Chones Choln's house, and Joan rows up in his car.

476
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 2: He has a Cadillac. He rows up, he sees all

477
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 2: of these deputies swarming outside of his house, panics, guns it,

478
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 2: and like speeds off basically, and so like all the

479
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 2: deputies hop in their car and speed off after him.

480
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: John manages to sort of elude them, like he just

481
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 2: he goes through a bunch of downtown streets and like

482
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 2: gets away, but then calls calls like a contact that

483
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 2: he has, like at the Laredo Police and saying, Hey,

484
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 2: why are all these cops at my house? Like he

485
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 2: has no idea, what's what's actually going on? I think

486
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,719
Speaker 2: he had heard at that point that Ladine was like killed,

487
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 2: but he had but he had nothing to do with him.

488
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,199
Speaker 2: So he panics and like takes off. He ends up

489
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 2: coming in and having an interview with Captain Gaddon and EJ.

490
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 2: Sealinas and they like go over everything, which he knows

491
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,479
Speaker 2: he had seen her, I think a couple of days before,

492
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: but not the day before, and says he has like

493
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: he has no idea who may have killed him. Police

494
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 2: kind of check out his story. He's not completely crossed

495
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 2: off the list, but they also feel kind of strongly

496
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 2: that that like it wasn't.

497
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 3: Him, tell me about the third victim, because now we

498
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 3: have to Texas Rangers in the Sheriff's department saying it

499
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 3: sounds like we've got the same person murdering these two

500
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 3: different women. Is Gizelda friends with both Claudine and Melissa.

501
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,719
Speaker 2: She is, she said, this nickname is like Chilli, and

502
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 2: she is also part of this sex worker sort of community.

503
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 2: They've been friends for like a long time. He said.

504
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,239
Speaker 2: That is thirty five at the time, so she had

505
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 2: been out there for almost two decades. Also has an

506
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 2: extremely hardcore heroin addiction, which she operates in the sex

507
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 2: trade just to just to sort of feed that. And

508
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 2: she had a really rough sort of upbringing, you know.

509
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: Chlly is from a really kind of rough and tumble

510
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 2: part of Laredo. She was two years old when her

511
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 2: mother is murdered by like an ex boyfriend. The mother

512
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 2: was like a single mother raising her and her older brother, Joey,

513
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 2: And so Joey and Kelly go to live with a

514
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 2: grandmother and that's the one who basically raises them. But

515
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: they're it's still out to oversight and they're basically on

516
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 2: the streets a lot, and so they kind of succumb

517
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: to some of the vices of the actual street. Joey

518
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 2: joins a gang, ends up getting into trouble and goes

519
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 2: away to prison for twenty two years. Chilly gets into

520
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 2: drug habits and basically develops a really bad heroin addiction

521
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 2: and that's what gets her on the streets.

522
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 3: Also, how long after they discover Claudeine do they then

523
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 3: discover Chilly.

524
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 2: So it's about a day and a half. But something

525
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 2: really pivotal happens in between that, And that's the case

526
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 2: of Ericapana and Erica Penna is also a sex worker.

527
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 2: She's also on the streets, and she's kind of a

528
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 2: repeat client, but she's the one who actually escapes and

529
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 2: alerts alerts police that she may know the actual identity

530
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 2: of this serial killer.

531
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 3: This happens after Claudeine, but before Chilly.

532
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: Is it right?

533
00:29:58,320 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 2: That is correct? Yep?

534
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 3: So he is he aware that this could turn on

535
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 3: him pretty quickly, and yet he then still decides to

536
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 3: pursue another victim.

537
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's this really interesting thing like he up until

538
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 2: this point it was more or less calculated, like he

539
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 2: would target his victim, drive him off so really sort

540
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 2: of remote places, and then go back to work as

541
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 2: if nothing was happening right, and he was leading this

542
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 2: double life. Once Erica Panna basically escaped from him and

543
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 2: starts to alert police about this is the person who

544
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 2: probably killed some of my friends and he's aware of

545
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 2: that he or he basically assumes that. Once he assumes that,

546
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 2: like the actual police are after him, it kind of

547
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: becomes this almost like suicidal spasm of violence towards the end,

548
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 2: and his whole goal is just to pick up as

549
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 2: many sex workers as possible, shoot him, kill him before

550
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: police actually catch up with him.

551
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: Well, I guess we need to talk about him.

552
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 3: So who does Erica and encounter the night where she

553
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 3: clearly saves her own life and escapes set up that

554
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 3: scenario because now we have somebody who can actually explain

555
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 3: what happens to these women.

556
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 2: So his name is Juan David Ortiz, thirty five, like

557
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 2: at the time of the murders, he's a ten year

558
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 2: veteran of the US Vota Patrol. He's married with three

559
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 2: young young kids, and he's from Texas. You know, I

560
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 2: grew up like in Brownsville, Texas, raised by a single mom.

561
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 2: And for those who aren't really familiar with Brownsville, that's

562
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 2: the southern like it's literally like the southern most point

563
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 2: of Texas that's right on the border across the river

564
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: from Mantalmodos, Texas. David Ortiz grows up in Brownsville with

565
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 2: a single mom. He has three other sisters, all of

566
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 2: them younger, so he's the older. He's raised liked about

567
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 2: evangelical Pentecostal Christian, so he's very sort of religion focused.

568
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 2: Even in sort of high school, he basically leads like

569
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 2: the Bible study group. He's constantly leading Bible study is

570
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 2: like at home, he's on the swim team, and by

571
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 2: all accounts, he's a really focused, like kind of ambitious

572
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 2: student who knows who knows like what he wants to

573
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 2: do once he graduates, and that is to join the

574
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: actual military, which he does as soon as he actually graduates.

575
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 2: Just a couple of months after graduating. He basically joins

576
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 2: the Navy in two thousand and one. He's eighteen years old,

577
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 2: and this is two months before like the terrorist attacks

578
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 2: for like ninety eleven. So he's a Navy corman, which

579
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,239
Speaker 2: is like a medic, and he's attached to like a

580
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: marine unit that is deployed out to Iraq. During Operation

581
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 2: Iraqi Freedom, and he's a Corman, so he is it's

582
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: basically like on the front lines, helping helping people who

583
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 2: get injured and get and get hurt out there. And

584
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 2: his unit starts in Basra to the south and goes

585
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 2: all the way up Iraq and ends up in Baghdad,

586
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 2: and they spent some time in Baghdad. I talked to

587
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 2: a couple of his sort of military buddies out there

588
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 2: who all say, you know, sort of comparatively like they

589
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 2: didn't see all that much action as some of the

590
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 2: other marine units out there, but they did see their

591
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 2: fair share of like really gruesome stuff, especially around Baghdad

592
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 2: and Baghdad things got We're just really chaotic and a

593
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 2: lot of bodies, a lot of dead people around, and

594
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 2: they sort of participate in like a lot of that.

595
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 2: He comes back to the US and he has really

596
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 2: high sort of accolades from his time in the military,

597
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 2: and in two thousand and nine joins Border Patrol again.

598
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 2: You know, this is a really coveted position. He has

599
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 2: an offer to join the San Antonio Police Department or

600
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 2: the Sheriff's office there, and he turns them down to

601
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 2: join Border Patrol, which is seen as a much more

602
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 2: coveted position, better pay, and he joined in two thousand

603
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 2: and nine. He's based first in Katy, which is halfway

604
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 2: between San Antonio and like downtown Laredo, and then later

605
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: is transferred to Laredo. In twenty seventeen. One of the

606
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 2: things which's up which he does like in Laredo, is

607
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 2: that he's basically assigned to join this unit called the

608
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,720
Speaker 2: Targeted Enforcement Unit. And this is sort of like highly trained,

609
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 2: specialized unit that does things like raids stash houses and

610
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 2: goes out and like goes after cartel operatives. And this

611
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 2: is an important time for him because as part of

612
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 2: the Targeted Enforcement Unit, he is focusing and trying to

613
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: break up a lot of this sort of this sort

614
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 2: of like listed activity happening around the San Bernando Corridor.

615
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 2: So it's his introduction to this corridor and all the

616
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 2: different activities happening there. So he kind of repeatedly raids

617
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 2: some of the drug houses, he starts to know who,

618
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 2: like who the sex workers are working on there, and

619
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 2: so in twenty eighteen, like at the beginning of twenty

620
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 2: eight team, he's basically promoted to supervisory agent and is

621
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 2: assigned to the Joint Intel Center, which I mentioned earlier,

622
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 2: which is a center right there at the Vorder Patrol

623
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 2: headquarters in central Laredo where Vorder Patrol shares information with

624
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 2: the Sheriff's office and the DEA and DPS troopers and

625
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 2: they're all sharing information going after some of the biggest,

626
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: most sensitive cases there along the border.

627
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 3: No red flax from Ortis at all, No disciplinary action

628
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 3: nowhere anywhere, not even a speeding ticket with this guy.

629
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 2: Nothing, And that's something that I really dug into trying

630
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: to figure out and trying to find out. Unfortunately, Customers

631
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 2: and Vorder Protection, which is the agency that oversees Vorder Patrol,

632
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 2: they weren't really cooperative with me and basically declined to

633
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 2: give any interviews for this book, much less share any

634
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 2: records or anything about RTS. I did actually manage to

635
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 2: get some of his personnel records through other sources. Everything

636
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 2: in his record was pretty scotch cleaning. There was nothing

637
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 2: like there were no former red flags. The only thing

638
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 2: in he had a minor incident back in Cotula with

639
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 2: one of the migrants, which he picked up that the

640
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 2: migrant claimed that David Ortiz took a cigarette away from him,

641
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 2: and that was the only only thing that I came

642
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 2: up in his whole file.

643
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 3: What does eric Opinia say happened with Juan David Ortiz?

644
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 1: How did they even meet?

645
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 2: So eric Openna is working along San Bernando Avenue, just

646
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: just like some of these other women, and she meets

647
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 2: him just the same way that he meets others. So

648
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:40,760
Speaker 2: starting around twenty eighteen, early twenty eighteen one, David Ortiz

649
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 2: starts to start the cruise down outside Banado, and this

650
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 2: time he's like not working, he's he's actively engaging with

651
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 2: some of these sex workers and actually picking them up.

652
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 2: Eric Opena meets him right around then, early early twenty eighteen.

653
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: David Ortiz picks her up and they like drive off

654
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 2: and they kind of hit it off, like he first

655
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 2: of all. Erica Panna says later that he's kind of

656
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,240
Speaker 2: an ideal client, that he has money, he pays cash

657
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 2: on time, he pays up right away, and she actually

658
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 2: knows early on that he's involved with border patrol. He

659
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 2: doesn't make a secret out of it, and that's an

660
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 2: ideal client because she knows that he doesn't want to

661
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 2: get caught with this that like it could be embarrassing

662
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 2: so he's like discreet, he has money, and he becomes

663
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 2: like a reliable client for her. So he picks her

664
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 2: up repeatedly half a dozen times or so over the

665
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 2: course of twenty eighteen, including taking her back to his

666
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 2: house on different occasions. His wife, His wife, Daniella, has

667
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: family both in San Antonio and don in Brownsville, and

668
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 2: she would take the kids like visit family, and Juan

669
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 2: David Ortiz will like take advantage of those times and

670
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 2: take Erica, Panna and other women back to his empty house.

671
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 2: So they really get to know each other. They create

672
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: this sort of rapport between each other. And so she

673
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 2: gets picked up on that day, September fourteenth, twenty eighteen,

674
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 2: after he has killed like sort of Melissa, after he's

675
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 2: killed Claudine, and he picks up eric Opania as just

676
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:16,959
Speaker 2: another night in the town.

677
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 3: So what does she say changed, what made this night

678
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 3: different than the nights she was already used to spending

679
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 3: with Ortiz.

680
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, so she says later that she gets in the

681
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 2: car and starts talking about the same topic that everybody

682
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 2: alongside Bernado is talking about at that point, which is

683
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 2: the actual murders of Claudine and Melissa and she like

684
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: brings that up, and he kind of plays it off like, oh, yeah,

685
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 2: you know, I think I heard about that, but I'm

686
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 2: not like really following it, and they talk about it.

687
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 2: It kind of comes up and goes. She does what

688
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 2: she usually does, which is like shoots up heroin, and

689
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 2: then he takes her back to his house. His wife

690
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 2: again is visiting family up in San Antonio, so so

691
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 2: like the house is empty, so he takes her back

692
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 2: to his house and then Erica claims that as they're

693
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 2: sitting down like in their living room, something comes over

694
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 2: him and that she noticeably sees something change in his

695
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 2: face and his and in his sort of demeanor, and

696
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: he starts telling her that he's really worried that the

697
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 2: police might think that he has something to do with

698
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: Melissa's death because he had been with her a couple

699
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 2: of days before she was found, and that they might

700
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 2: find his his sort of DNA on her. But that's

701
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 2: something drastically changes, like in his sort of demeanor, that

702
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 2: his mood just kind of darkens to the point that

703
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 2: she gets this this sort of revelation that's that something

704
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 2: is like really wrong and she and she kind of

705
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 2: excuses herself and runs out of the house, goes to

706
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 2: the front yard and throws up like on the sidewalk,

707
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 2: like she's so overwhelmed with his dark of him that

708
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 2: it just kind of like it just sort of possesses her.

709
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 2: So he actually drives her off and says, well, let's

710
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 2: just let's just get you something to eat. Maybe he

711
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 2: just needs something to eat. And at this point, through

712
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 2: her mind she's she's actually thinking, maybe this is the

713
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 2: guy who, like, who has actually killed my friends. And

714
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 2: again it's nothing which which he's actually sort of like

715
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 2: admitted to at this point. It's just it's just a

716
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,879
Speaker 2: feeling she has. So he basically drives her to this

717
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 2: gas station nearby, and he drives around back and pulls

718
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 2: in the back, and it's a it's kind of it's

719
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,439
Speaker 2: kind of a darkened lot in the back, and he's

720
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 2: reaching down and he's and and she's asking him, what

721
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,839
Speaker 2: are you reaching for? And when he comes back up,

722
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 2: he has his gun drawn and if pointing right out

723
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,399
Speaker 2: her chest, and of course everything just clicks there for her.

724
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 2: She she basically realizes, like in like in one second,

725
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 2: that this is a guy who has killed both of

726
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 2: her friends. And now the gun's pointed at her, so

727
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,800
Speaker 2: she starts to freak out. She initially tells them please

728
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 2: don't kill me, and doesn't know what to do, but

729
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 2: then like instinct takes her over. And Erica had been

730
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,399
Speaker 2: on the streets also for about a decade, and her

731
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,720
Speaker 2: instinct in those situations is not till I cower into

732
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 2: her corner, but to kind of fight back, and so

733
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 2: she kind of lunges at the steering wheel trying to

734
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 2: like hunk the horn and kicks open the actual door.

735
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 2: David Ortiz grabs her with his right hand. He's actually

736
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 2: left handed, so he has the left hand pointed like

737
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 2: on the gun pointed at Erica, and with his right

738
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,280
Speaker 2: hand grabs her by by like her shoulder, but he's

739
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 2: like grabbing more, he's grabbing more of the blouse, and

740
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 2: so she manages to like wiggle out of her blouse,

741
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 2: kicks open the door, and jumps out in just a

742
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 2: bra and runs off. You only help me, help me,

743
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 2: help me. And she's at a gas station where it

744
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 2: just so happens at that point in time that there's

745
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 2: a Texas State trooper pumping gas at one of the pumps,

746
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,760
Speaker 2: and so she kind of darts towards him and tells

747
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 2: them everything which just happened, and that somebody pulled out

748
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 2: a gun on her and that she's pretty sure that

749
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 2: it's the same guy who has killed these two other women.

750
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: And he takes it seriously, obviously he does.

751
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 2: It's really interesting, like there's a couple of things that

752
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 2: if they don't happen, David Ortiz may have actually killed

753
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 2: again and again and again. One of which is that

754
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 2: Eric Apenna tells him like this whole story, and the

755
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 2: trooper does what he's supposed to do, which is called

756
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 2: the local life or the police. This all happened within

757
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 2: so like Loreto city limits, so he has to call

758
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 2: Lreto PD to basically report it. So he calls the

759
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 2: actual local police. Local police tell him, yeah, we'll send

760
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 2: somebody out soon, and so they basically wait five minutes,

761
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 2: ten minutes, fifteen minutes, It gets up to eighteen minutes

762
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 2: and still nobody has actually arrived. So he kind of

763
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 2: pivots and said, well, let me just call somebody who

764
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,040
Speaker 2: I think is actually familiar with the case. So he

765
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 2: calls one of his colleagues, which is EJ. Selena's the

766
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 2: Texas Ranger, who's one of the lead investigators on the

767
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 2: other two murders. He basically explains that he has a

768
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 2: woman here who just came running up to him claiming

769
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 2: that someone pulled a gun on her and that she

770
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 2: thinks that he's involved with these other two murders, and

771
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 2: hej Selenas tells him bring it or me, and that's

772
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 2: what really launches this sort of manhunt for Kuan David Ortiz.

773
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 3: But in the meantime, you said, he sort of responds

774
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 3: in a panic, and his way of panicking is to

775
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 3: kill two more women, to kill Chilly and to kill

776
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:38,240
Speaker 3: Janelle Ortiz.

777
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: Is that right?

778
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 2: That's right? So what So what he does is that

779
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,800
Speaker 2: he goes back to his house, right, So, he basically

780
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 2: sees Eric Apana run up to the trooper and knows that, okay,

781
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 2: the gig's up. The actual police are probably going to

782
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 2: be knocking on my door like any minute. So he

783
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 2: goes back to his house and basically what does he do.

784
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 2: He gathers every single piece of weaponry which he has

785
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 2: in his house, including like a sort of like AR

786
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: fifteen rifle, his forty caliber gun, his nine sort of

787
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 2: millimeter pistol, lays them all like on his kitchen island,

788
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 2: and he's basically waiting for like police to knock on

789
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 2: his door and come and get him, because because in

790
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 2: his mind, he's just going to shoot it out with

791
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 2: them and die by a shootout basically. But he waits

792
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 2: there for like thirty minutes, forty five minutes, it's it's

793
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,439
Speaker 2: like over an hour, and nobody shows up. So he goes, well,

794
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:34,439
Speaker 2: maybe she didn't tell me, And so he gets back

795
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 2: in his truck and he like decides, well, I'm just

796
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 2: going to go back to San Bernando and now I'm

797
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 2: just going to start killing more of them.

798
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 1: What is his mentality?

799
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 3: I mean, you had mentioned this quite a while ago

800
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 3: that he's hoping to murder as many sex workers as possible.

801
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 3: Where does that come from?

802
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: Do you think? I mean, what do you make of that?

803
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a that's a tough nut to crack, and

804
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 2: it's one that I kind of sort of dug in

805
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 2: to quite a bit during my research trying to figure

806
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 2: out not just why he would do it, but where

807
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 2: was that moment, Like, was there anything that really turned

808
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 2: him towards that? And there was very little evidence anywhere

809
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 2: that pointing to anything. The clearest insight we have is

810
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 2: this nine hour videotape confession that he later gives to

811
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 2: like investigators, where he basically talks about each of the murders.

812
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 2: He talks about doing it and like the only reason

813
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: that he actually gives is that he just wanted to

814
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 2: clean up the streets of these like undesirables. I mean,

815
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 2: this is his this is his words, and he used

816
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 2: harsher terms in that he called them mietadas like pieces

817
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,879
Speaker 2: of crap. But it's unclear where like where that comes from.

818
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 2: It's unclear if that was truly his actual motive or

819
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 2: if he was just kind of responding to these really

820
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 2: evil instincts inside of him. Also, he was taken at

821
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 2: the time quite a bit of sort of medication. He

822
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 2: was really struggling with PTSD and like anxiety. He was

823
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 2: was actually diagnosed with PTSD and was given this sort

824
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,879
Speaker 2: of concoction of I think it was eight psychotropic medications

825
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 2: which she was taken every day. But he also was

826
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 2: sort of abusing them too, like had friends. Friends actually

827
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 2: told me later that they would see him popping pills

828
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 2: but then drinking copious amounts of beer and alcohol and

829
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 2: that all that stuff made him like a different person

830
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 2: like he was more like aggressive he was, he just

831
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,240
Speaker 2: wasn't like the same person after taking all these pills.

832
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,439
Speaker 2: Did that player role, you know, possibly, but it's really

833
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 2: unclear how or why he basically took it upon himself

834
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 2: to start targeting all of these sex workers.

835
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 3: He ends up killing Shelley, he ends up killing Janelle,

836
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 3: and then you know he had had Erica escape. How

837
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,479
Speaker 3: does he eventually get caught? And this is a twelve

838
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 3: day period, right, it finally ends after twelve.

839
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 2: Days, correct, it's only twelve days, and he's finally caught.

840
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 2: He's caught only because so once Erica basically talks with

841
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:05,839
Speaker 2: like investigators, they're able to basically identify him. So so

842
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 2: they have his name, they have his picture, they have

843
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 2: his sort of description of of like his white truck,

844
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 2: and they put out a bolo be on the lookout

845
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 2: basically alert to all sort of law enforcement like in

846
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:22,399
Speaker 2: the area. And after David Ortiz kills Shelley and then

847
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 2: then like Janelle, he goes through a gas station because

848
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 2: he has to he has to use the actual restroom,

849
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 2: and so he's on he's on some Bernando and his

850
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 2: plan is to like keep is to keep on killing

851
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 2: is to just pick up one after another and just

852
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 2: keep on killing sex workers. But he stops out of

853
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 2: Stripe's gas station to like use the bathroom and Texas

854
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 2: State Trooper uh sees his sees his truck, spots his truck,

855
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 2: realizes that there's a bolo off for it, and him

856
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 2: and another trooper basically confront him at this gas station.

857
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 2: They basically have guns drawn on him that they're like

858
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 2: tolding him to like put his hands up, to turn

859
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 2: around to get on the floor. And what does David

860
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 2: Etz do? He has his hands up, He runs off.

861
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 2: He speeds off, and these troopers chase after him, but

862
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 2: they end up losing him here. He runs like a

863
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 2: couple of blocks, ends up at the parking lot of

864
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 2: a sort of nearby hotel. He jumps in the back

865
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 2: of a pickup truck and basically hides out there. It

866
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 2: takes police, you know, the Webb County SWAT team shows up,

867
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 2: Border patrol agents show up, a bunch of other people.

868
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 2: The place is swarming with like sort of law enforcement agents.

869
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 2: Takes him over an hour to like find him, but

870
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 2: they finally find him. They like pull him out of

871
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 2: the truck and then they arrest him, so.

872
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 1: To shorthand the rest of this.

873
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 3: He goes on trial and is convicted, of course, and

874
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:46,919
Speaker 3: he is given a life sentence without parole. This being Texas,

875
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 3: how is this not a capital case? How is he

876
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 3: not on death row?

877
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 1: At this point?

878
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 2: It's actually a really good question. It's up to the

879
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 2: actual district attorney to ask for the death penalty or not. Initially,

880
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 2: he like he had played and to ask for the

881
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 2: death penalty, but he told me later, the district attorney

882
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 2: told me later that he has to have like the

883
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 2: buy in of all the victim's families, Like all the

884
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 2: victim's families have to agree that they all also want

885
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 2: the death penalty. Like, he can't be in a courtroom

886
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,760
Speaker 2: asking for the death penalty and then having victim's families

887
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 2: giving TV interviews saying that they're against capital punishment. It

888
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 2: just like doesn't work that way, And so he has

889
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 2: to He basically pulled all of the families, and they

890
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 2: were like mostly split. Some of them wanted the actual

891
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 2: death penalty, some of them didn't really believe in it,

892
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 2: and so the families were fairly split. But there's this

893
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 2: real interesting scene that I have in the book where

894
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 2: Joey khon Too, Shelley's older brother, who had just spent

895
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 2: twenty two years in a Texas State prison, stands up

896
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,760
Speaker 2: during one of the meetings where like the district attorney

897
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 2: is meeting with some of the victim's families talking about

898
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 2: penalty phase. He stands up and he says, you know,

899
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 2: you all don't really know me, but I just spent

900
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 2: twenty two years in a prison. And he goes on

901
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 2: to sort of describe how bad it is in these

902
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 2: Texas State prisons and that he has seen grown men

903
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 2: crumble mentally and it's just a really hard existence day

904
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:10,879
Speaker 2: in day out, and that he would rather see David

905
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 2: Ortiz spend the rest of his life in that situation

906
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 2: than take the death penalty. To him, he felt like

907
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 2: the death penalty was the sort of easy way out,

908
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 2: and he basically convinces the rest of the families that

909
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,760
Speaker 2: that's the way to go. And so the district attorney

910
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 2: polls all of the family members and all of them

911
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 2: basically agree that he should pursue life in prison and

912
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 2: not the death penalty, and that's what happens.

913
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 3: What is your takeaway from all of this? There are

914
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 3: so many victims here survivors. His wife, Daniella, and their

915
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 3: three children are victims. You know, this is just the

916
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:49,280
Speaker 3: wake of misery this man left behind, with the women

917
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 3: and the lives that were already difficult to begin with.

918
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 3: What is your takeaway from your book when by the

919
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 3: time you were done writing.

920
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 2: It, Well, that's actually one of the things that I

921
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 2: wanted to show throughout the book is that there were

922
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 2: more than just four victims here, that the level of

923
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,479
Speaker 2: pain and sort of destruction just kind of like ripples out.

924
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,320
Speaker 2: The families are like still going through some really hard times,

925
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 2: missing a lot of the victims. Eric Opanna, who actually

926
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 2: escapes and lives to tell about it, also goes through

927
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 2: really hard time and relapses and is back into like

928
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 2: heroin addiction. She has like severe PTSD over it. I

929
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 2: actually chose to end my book with Lubita Rocha, who

930
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 2: is David Ortiz's mother, crying alone in this courtroom after

931
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 2: he's basically found guilty and is likely going to have

932
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 2: life in prison. It's actually automatically life in prison with

933
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 2: no parole. I kind of end the book with a

934
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 2: real touching moment that I thought was just her crying

935
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 2: the courtroom's empty and she's just heaving through these uncontrollable sobs,

936
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 2: and it just shows that there's victims on his day too,

937
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 2: like that family's ruined too. His wife and kids are

938
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 2: probably going through incredible hardship also. So these acts really

939
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:11,879
Speaker 2: impacted so many people on so many different levels, and

940
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 2: I really wanted to show that throughout the book.

941
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 3: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

942
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 3: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

943
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 3: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are

944
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 3: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

945
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 3: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

946
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 3: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

947
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 3: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis Mrosi.

948
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 3: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed

949
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 3: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer, artwork by

950
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 3: Nick Toga, executiveduced by Georgia Hardstark.

951
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:03,720
Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer.

952
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 3: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More Wicked and

953
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 3: on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod