WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 235 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:03.120 Also media. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.720 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.440 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.680 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.520 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:19.040 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:21.000 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:24.720 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:31.000 It's bare time, yep, it's bad time. Hi everyone, welcome 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:34.000 to take could Happen Here? A podcast where I talk 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:36.200 to Molly Konga about animals. 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.240 Hi, Molly, I'm so excited to learn about bears. 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:41.599 I've been thinking about it all week. 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:44.960 That's atacta good You've had good bad thoughts, because there 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:46.320 are people who think about beads a lot, and I 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:47.880 think it's not good for the mental well being. 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:50.160 I was trying to find if I took a picture 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:52.199 of that time a baby bear was like standing on 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:54.680 the Median Strip outside my old apartment and I couldn't 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:56.680 find it, so I was thinking about him. 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:59.760 Okay, Yeah, I hope he's okay. He's found a better 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:01.960 place to be in the Median Strip. I bought a 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:04.160 show and tell item today. Molly can see it. No 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:04.759 one else can. 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:06.600 I was hoping he was going to be a live bear. 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:08.840 It's not a live bear. I don't I'm not allowed 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:11.440 because of Woke. You can't have a pet grisly bear. 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:13.560 If you're about to tell me that those are bear antlers, 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:14.080 I'm leaving. 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:18.080 Yeah, it's from These are actually original Jacalobe antlers from 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:21.279 the California Jackalobe. Now it's a mule deer shared antler. 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:22.960 I thought it was cool. I thought you'd like to 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:23.360 see it. 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:24.119 It's beautiful. 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:24.680 Yeah. 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:26.520 I think lots of people don't realize that the antlers 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:28.360 fall off and regenerate. 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:31.039 I feel like he's been a long time growing those. 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:33.080 Yeah he did, and then he just left them there 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:35.959 as a gift for me in the wilderness. So I 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:36.920 have a few of these. 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:38.640 He's not getting laid this spring. 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:40.760 Oh no, he's going to grow some more, ok and 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:44.360 he's going to fight another dude with them in order 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:45.000 to get laid. 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:46.760 So that fell off in a fight. 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:50.640 So he's just walking around with one. Oh he'd okay, 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:51.800 he shed them. 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.200 Yeah that they shed them and regenerate them. Okay, like 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:57.360 this is how. This is how they get bigger and 0:01:57.360 --> 0:01:59.960 more robust antlets each time. But they put a lot 0:01:59.920 --> 0:02:02.880 of a caloric energy into growing these. 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:04.760 That seems like that would really take a lot out 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:04.960 of you. 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:05.800 Yeah. 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:08.400 Well, then they get horny and fight with other male 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:12.520 deer for quite a while. Those antlers not horns, that's correct, 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:16.520 but the horny is not related to them. Yeah, they 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:18.480 go and then they yeah, they lose a lot of 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:20.320 weight in that ratting time and then they have to 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:22.760 gain it all back before the winter. 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:24.639 Just so focused on fighting and fuck, and they can't 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:25.079 even eat. 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:30.480 Yep. It's the many such cases, many such cases. Yeah. Yeah, 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:33.639 So I'm not talking about mule deer today and that 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:35.440 they are cool. The first time I saw when I 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:36.799 was like, I see why they call it a mule deer. 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:40.079 Really got the ears going on. I want to talk 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:45.240 about another type of charismatic North American megafauna, bears. So 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:48.720 there are three species of bear in North America. Should 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:50.000 have quiz, molly, you know what they are? 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:56.040 Okay, grizzly, brown, black. 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:01.359 Close that's for it's going to keep praying. 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:03.840 Bears. 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:08.959 Yeah, nominally they are, but I think, yeah, you didn't 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:12.280 get them all during your period of guessing brown, black, 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:17.560 and polar. Within brown bear, we have grizzly bears, brown bears, 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:20.920 and Kodiak bears. We used to think that the California 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.840 bears were a different species and not they just lived here. 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:25.320 They just have different politics. 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.360 Yeah, yeah, exactly. They we'd have been legalized, so they 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:32.639 just sort of thing differently. The brown bears are what 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:33.919 I want to talk about, So I'm going to use 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:37.760 brown bear as like a blanket term for when they're 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.320 on the coast in Alaska, they're called brown bears, right, 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:43.160 and those are generally the biggest ones. And if you 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:45.480 ever seen it, if you've been to Alaska, Molly no. 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:46.720 I would love to go to Alaska. 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:47.360 I've never been. 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:50.480 Yeah, Alaska fucking rips. I love Alaska. 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.400 I found out recently that black bears can be brown, 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:55.160 and I just think we need I think we need 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:57.720 to re evaluate the naming system. 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:00.760 It's not good, yes, because people, you know. 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:02.640 The advice about a brown bear versus a black bear 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:04.680 is different. But if a black bear can be brown, 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:07.200 and you're relying on a rhyming phrase to know what 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:09.040 to do, you don't know what kind of bear that is. 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:15.120 Yeah, they call them cinnamon bears sometimes the brown black bears. Yeah, 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:17.480 you can tell a grizzly bear the bigger they've got 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:20.279 that more pronounced hump. They have a different shape to them. 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:22.280 No, you can tell. I cannot. 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:26.839 You'll fucking know that. Grizzly bears coming like they don't 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:30.680 make themselves, you know, quiet, but yeah, the big hump, 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:33.320 they've got a more pronounced hump. Grizzly bets can also 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:35.599 really get into like a blonde coloration even. 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:38.279 Well yeah in California, sure everybody's blonde out there. 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:40.960 Yeah, they get frosted tips when they live by the 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:45.480 coast for too long and they listen to sublime here. Yeah, 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:48.240 let's talk about bears. I get my bear interactions by 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:51.640 way of establishing some credibility. I want to point out that, like, 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:54.440 interacting with bears doesn't make non expert I'm not an expert, 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:56.960 And what we're going to talk about here is non 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:01.240 experts interjecting their inexpert opinions about bears and why that's 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:02.040 actually a problem. 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:05.560 I'm probably interacting with bears is not a desirable outcome 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:06.760 for most listeners. 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:09.360 Yeah, I mean I love a bear like I see 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:11.279 because I come from a place where there's very little 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:13.039 that can kill you. Well, I mean there are things, right, 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:15.200 there are cars, and we have cancer in the UK 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:19.080 as well, of course, but like animal wise, you're more 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:19.760 or less nuclear. 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:19.880 Right. 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:22.120 We have adders, which is a type of snake and 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:24.680 they are venomous. But like, I can't think the last 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:26.040 time I ever heard of someone getting killed, but I'm 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:28.400 sure someone has been killed by an adobyte, but it's 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:29.000 very rare. 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:30.640 Now you don't have when you have a lion on 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:32.760 like a flag or something, somebody has one. 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:36.200 But I have a few lions. We've got some flag lions. Yeah, 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:39.520 you know the lines, the lines In fact, we I 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:41.120 love the lines on a flag because they're drawn by 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:43.680 someone who's never seen a lion. But just like a 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:45.520 game of telephone has resulted. 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:46.640 Anybody he knows they're very majestical. 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:49.120 Yeah, it's majestic, kind of like a dog longer hair. 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:51.679 I think there was the input before he drew the lines. 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:54.600 I kind of like being on the landscape with animals 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:56.960 that are bigger than me and like they are the 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:01.440 apex predator. The first time I saw Grizzly Bear, I 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:06.279 had a bush planed to a lake in the Wrangle 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:11.520 sent Elias Wilderness. It's in Alaska, Southeast Alaska, massive wilderness area, 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:14.400 and we were gonna hike around a bit and then 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:17.760 pack raft off the end of the glacier. There it 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:20.359 goes into like a meltwater river, and so the river's 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:22.760 kind of different every years as it melts and the 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.800 river streams brayed together. Then we were going to pack 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:28.560 for a few days and then hike out and that 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:31.800 was a fun adventure. So we landed, we hiked a bit, 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:35.320 we inflated our little boats, and we paddled across the 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:37.640 lake at the end of the glacier, and then we 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:39.120 got to pace where were camping, went on a walk 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:42.080 and immediately saw a sat grizzly bear and her cups, 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:43.400 which was sick. 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:45.280 That's cute as hell. I would love to see that. 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:47.000 I would love to see some baby bears. 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:49.520 Yeah, it's sick. I'd best to stay away from them. 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:51.560 That's when they can get angry. 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:54.120 I would like to see them from like over here, yeah, 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:55.680 and then they can be over there, like maybe on 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:56.440 the other side. 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:56.680 Of a river. 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:00.680 Yeah, I get well, the bears, there's none afraid of water, 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:04.080 but yeah, that's they do love to eat salmon. Yeah, 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:06.000 it was sick. That was a sick trip. Generally, we've 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:09.480 got to see the glacier carving, so like that's when 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:13.720 a little baby glacier is born. Right, But the glacier 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:17.480 a section of it broke off, and I'm talking a 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:19.360 section of size of like a city block here. 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:21.520 Why but it's so shiny when it breaks. 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:24.360 Yeah, it's shiny and it's allowed. It's like an earth 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:26.120 shattering rumble. 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:26.400 Right. 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.200 And then this thing was it was majestic, right, Like 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:32.440 it looks like a mountain has fallen into the water 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:34.400 and that was cool as fig and then you realize that, 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:38.880 like it has displaced a mountain sized amount of water. 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:40.120 Mood. 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:43.200 Yeah, and now there are like fridge sized ice blocks 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:46.200 coming at head height towards you. So yeah, we did 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:48.800 some fast uphill running in that moment. But it was 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:51.600 a last So it was summertimes. It wasn't getting dark, right, 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:53.600 you have like twenty four hours sunlight, so at least 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:54.760 it wasn't dark when that happened. 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:56.200 Only time to run from the glacier. 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:58.520 Yeah, great time to run from the glacier. I wouldn't 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:00.560 want to do it in the wintertime. I don't think 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:02.280 they carve in the winter time. Maybe they still do. 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:05.360 I think it's to do with temperature rising. So that 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:07.560 was my I've seen a lot of black bears. I'm 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:09.880 a San Diego black bear truther. But it's another fun 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:12.560 thing about me. For some reason, people don't think there 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:14.880 are black bears in San Diego, and that is not true. 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:19.360 I have seen barefootprints, people have seen bears on game cameras. 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:22.080 Bears pop up on top of Mount Palamar all the time. 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:24.960 It's like the ongoing feud about whether or not we 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:26.880 have panthers on the East coast. 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:30.400 Oh yeah, you guys love to It's like a Carolina 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:31.360 panther or something. 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:35.120 People are very sure I have no skin in this game. 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.640 Yeah, I think that's a breeding family of mountain lions 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:42.880 now maybe in Michigan. So they're getting closer, they're getting 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:45.800 They're coming your way as you soon will. I've seen 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:47.400 a lot of bears, or a good number of bears. 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:49.040 Seen a lot of black bears right, we have them 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.400 in California. The fact that I've seen bears does not 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:55.320 make me a bear expert. And another non bear expert 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:58.520 has been diving into the discourse on bears after. 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.000 A tragedy like genuinely a terrible. 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:02.719 Thing, when a hiker lost their life in Glassier, we'll 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:05.520 try and to say the American way Glacier National Park. 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:09.400 We're going to get messages about this, this British word. 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:12.040 Yeah right, it's not like a buffalo issue. I'm just 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:14.960 straight colonizing it. I'm sure it had an indigenous name, 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:18.040 and so so are you if you're saying Glacier. This 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:20.800 is really sad, right. A hiker from Florida was more 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:24.559 by a bear, Andyde very shortly in relation to that, 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:29.000 serious injuries occurred in another morning in Yellowstone National Park. 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:33.160 Not so long ago, a contractor really uranium mining site 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:35.959 was killed by a black bear in British Columbia and 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:38.679 Canada a couple of weeks ago, maybe thirteenth of May. 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:40.720 It looked like unusual to be killed by a black bear, 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:45.199 probably worth pointing out that very rare for black bears 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.880 to kill people. And also someone at that site clearly 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:51.840 had a firearm because they euthanased the bear. Euthanas dies 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:54.480 a phraser used there. They killed it right like it 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:57.120 wasn't suffering. I don't think that they killed the bear 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:01.360 pretty shortly thereafter, and it's undergoing a neckt now. But 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:04.760 that's another incident I guess to add to this list. 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.000 And again right there, there was a firearm present. There 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:10.240 is seems in there that didn't prevent the person being 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:15.120 mauled by the beck. And so former Interior Secretary Ryan 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.680 Zinky has decided to wade into the debate. Do we 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:19.720 remember Ryan Zinky? 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:22.400 He's not the one from Real World road Rules, right, 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:23.719 so that's the transportation guy. 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.040 I don't think so. If he is, I'm not aware 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:29.520 of what Real World road Rules is. 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.680 I'm just having drouble remembering which members of cabinet have 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:34.760 been on reality TV, and I don't think this is 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:35.080 one of them. 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:38.840 Okay, sorry, no, not to my knowledge. Zinky, he was 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:43.960 maybe seal officer. He's now representative from Montana. He was 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:47.240 Interior secretary in Trump's first administration. He presided over a 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:49.400 series of attacks on public lands, so that we saw 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:50.880 in Trump one point over. 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:52.599 Exactly what you want to see from your secretary of 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:53.120 the Interior. 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:53.400 Yeah. 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.560 Yeah, he's trying to rebrand himself as some kind of 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:59.719 protector of public lands. Now he's kind of too late. 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.000 On that one in my opinion, but he's certainly on 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.959 the protector of bears. Last week he tweeted, maybe he's 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:09.920 zeated and we're not doing that. We're gonna okay dead 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:12.760 naming it. Last week, two grizzly bear attacks claimed the 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:15.199 life of a hiker in Glacia National Park and seriously 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.400 injured to others in Yellowstone National Park. The tragedies are 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.520 a sobering reminder that grizzly bear populations have recovered well 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:23.880 beyond sustainable levels and it is time for Oh, we 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:28.240 should start killing them. Yep. It's past time for the 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:30.920 federal government to delist them and give states to management tools. 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:32.920 Got them back, Yeah, we're going to kill them back. 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:34.200 This is what we do. 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:35.800 Eye for an eye for Florida man. 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:36.800 Yeah. 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:40.360 I was speaking to a bear a scientist who studies 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:43.640 human bear interactions this week, and he referred to these 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:47.199 as revenge killings. Yeah, because they won't just kill. They 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:51.560 often in many instances don't know which bear. Sometimes we 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:53.520 can we can that we can know the size of 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:56.480 the bear right from like the size of the jaws 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:58.720 that we can have several bears. There are different sizes 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:01.200 of jews. Seems a distance between the different teeth stuff 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:01.520 like this. 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:03.280 Right, right, Like if one bear is like if it's 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:05.720 like a jaw situation, like one bear just has it 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:06.560 out for hikers. 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:08.400 Sure, I guess go get him. 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.160 But that's not like it's not happening. Yeah, and they 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:12.880 will end up killing a number of bears in an 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:15.079 area when this stuff happens, right, which is it's just 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:17.880 a revenge killing. So we're taking out like we're taking 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:20.240 out our anger on that species because they came after 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:21.000 our species. 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.319 It seems like the problem is not that there's too 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:24.680 many bears. 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:28.160 That is correct, Molly, That is that is why we're 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:28.760 here today. 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:32.520 He seems to be positioning this as there's just too 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.480 many bears. People just can't avoid the bears because there's 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:36.439 so many bears. 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:38.880 Then it's not the case. Millions of people every year 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:41.559 visit the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem, and very few of them 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:42.800 see a bear, right. 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:44.360 And even few of them touch a bear. 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:47.280 Yeah, you're touching a grizzly bear. It's a bad day, 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:50.079 viet Let's I guess it has decided it wants to 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:50.520 be touched. 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:52.400 I don't want a victim blame obviously, Like these are 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:54.040 wild animals that are unpredictable. 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:56.880 You're in their home. What does guy do? Why was 0:12:56.880 --> 0:12:57.880 he so close to the bear? 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:01.080 We don't know exactly what this I did. There are 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:02.640 a number of bear safety things which I do want 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:05.240 to talk about, And I spoke to Tom Smith last 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:07.080 week and I'm going to turn that into another podcast, 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.360 but like, this is the person who is the guy 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.240 who writes the studies on human interactions with bears right 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:15.839 and specifically on how those could be like de escalated. 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:18.680 And he said he's not aware of an incident in 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:20.800 which someone has been killed by a bear in which 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:24.280 they were adhering to all the best principles right now. 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:26.960 I'm not blaming the victim, Like if you don't know, 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:29.600 you don't know, you're inexperienced outdoorsman or whatever. 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:30.720 But I feel like. 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:33.720 There's a series of just like pieces of advice and 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:35.960 if you follow them, you're not going to get in 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:37.480 that situation most of the time. 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:40.480 Mostly most of the time. Yeah, I think if I 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.480 was going into bear country, I wouldn't take a dog. 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:46.160 A lot of people take dogs. Dog is a great 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:47.920 way to find a bear. You're looking for a bear, 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:49.800 you could go send out your dog, and it'll come 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.480 back to you with a bear and toe some like 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.000 hunting dogs and also tree bears. But that's not what 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:55.560 I'm talking about. 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:58.040 It because the bear sees the dog as a delicious snack. 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.200 I think the dog sees as a bear as a threat, right, 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:03.480 and I'll stop back and they'll get and then like 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:05.960 the bear then obviously sees a dog as what the 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.080 fuck is this little animal? A begs predator here? Yeah, 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:12.960 Like we're locked in, and the dog can smell the bear, right, 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:15.040 so it's going to find it, and the be can 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:16.960 smell the dog, so they're going to find each other. 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:18.520 I guess I was thinking of my dog, which a 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:20.480 bear would definitely see is a delicious snack. 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:23.120 Yeah, your dog, I could see. Maybe it'd be sub 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:24.880 snack sized, it wouldn't be worth it, but. 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:26.400 Like a little cocktail weenie. 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.400 Yeah, a sausage dog would try it, it wouldn't give it, 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:31.280 like I've seen. I've sent you a video of a 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:34.440 sausage dog, Yeah, chase chasing off a mountain lion like 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:36.360 they didn't give a fuck. Very brave. 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:39.040 So yeah, don't take a dog, don't try and pet it. 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:41.920 Yeah, don't take a dog, don't try and pet it. 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.040 In this instance, I think the person was moving through 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:48.080 thick country where the bear was probably foraging for berries, 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:50.760 and they probably startled the bear, as you don't want 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:53.520 to start the bet If you're moving through thick country 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:56.320 like that, that's when people will say hey bear, or 0:14:56.320 --> 0:15:00.240 they'll use a bear bell, or they'll talk loud and 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:03.240 converse with people in their group. It is generally preferred 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:06.040 to be in a group when we're in grizzly country, right, 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.360 not on our own. We don't know the details of 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:12.840 this incident. There have been some reports that the person 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:15.440 discharged bear spray, and I want to get onto the 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:17.040 best ray topic, late Bex. They have a lot to 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:19.880 say about that. Let's go back and talk about the 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:22.040 bears in the history. 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:23.800 Yes, contextualize the bear. 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:26.520 Yeah, rensink he wants to delist the bear from the 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:30.000 Endangered Species Act. Right, bears haven't always been protected by 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:33.440 the Dangered Species Act. That's why California has a bear 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:35.160 on its flag that doesn't live here anymore. 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:37.200 Oh, we don't have those anymore. 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:39.840 No, we kill them ball. We don't have brown bears here. 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:42.040 So is he on the flag? Because you're sorry? About 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:43.160 it because you're proud of it. 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:45.960 No, I think it's more of a pride thing. I 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:49.160 think it's more of a ye, we got him, fucking yeah. Yeah, 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:51.320 I don't actually know what he's on the flag. I'll 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:53.640 do some searching. I'm pretty sure it's not because we're 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:56.520 sorry about it. We have a good source right of 0:15:56.560 --> 0:16:00.320 what European people did when they first encounter bears. It's 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:01.800 not my story from Alaska. 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:02.040 Oh. 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:04.000 I thought they did not know about them. 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:08.480 Well they did, because, as it turns out, as Lewis 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:11.120 and Clark were moving across the plains right, they encountered 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:14.320 indigenous people who very specifically told them not to fuck 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:16.800 with bears. Let me quote from Lewis's diary. 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:18.840 I thought you would not have to tell like if 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.080 I have never I had no concept of bear, and 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:23.280 I see a bear, my instinct is going to be 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:24.400 I'm going to leave that guy alone. 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:28.600 See Yeah, but these guys are just built different. As 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:32.440 it turns out, they're bear poking and no desire is 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.960 extremely turns out counterproductive for them. Let's read from the 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:38.520 Lewis and Clark diary. Is a first on the podcast. 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.840 Quote the Indians give a very formidable account of the 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.640 strength and ferocity of this animal, which they never dare 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:48.200 to attack, but in parties of six, eight or ten persons, 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:51.440 and are even then frequently defeated with a loss of 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:53.800 one or more of their party. This animal is said 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.360 to more frequently attack a man on meeting with him 0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:58.440 than filly from him. When the Indians are about to 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.240 go in quest of the white bear, previous to their departure, 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:04.880 they paint themselves and perform all these superstitious rites commonly 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.680 observed when they're about to make war upon a neighboring nation. 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:09.760 I think he's talking about brown bears. We talked about 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:10.080 white bears. 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:11.800 Zeb I was gonna say, is he talking about polar bears, 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:13.480 because you definitely don't do that. 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:16.800 Yeah, yeah, I do not fuck with it. Bare polar 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:19.359 bear will end you. That was on the fifteenth of April. 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:21.760 So he's like, yeah, it takes eight or ten guys, 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:23.040 usually one of them dies. 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:24.320 They don't always succeed. 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:25.760 I'm gonna go check it out. 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:26.320 I got it. 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:31.160 Yeah, yep. So by early May, Captain Clark and Dryer 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:33.439 killed the largest brown bear this evening which we have 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:36.760 ever yet seen. It was a most tremendous looking animal 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:40.480 and extremely hard to kill. Notwithstanding he had five balls 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:43.159 through his lungs and five others in various parts. He 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:45.480 swam more than half the distance across the river to 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:48.080 a sandbar, and it was at least twenty minutes before 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:50.439 he died. Then they go and say they thought it 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:52.760 weighed about five hundred pounds, but they didn't have any 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:56.120 apparatus to weigh. So that's the first interaction with a bear. 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.240 Less than a month later, quote, six good hunters of 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:01.679 the party fired at a brown or yellow bear several 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:04.760 times before they killed him, And indeed he had like 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:07.760 to have defeated the whole party. He pursued them separately 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:10.120 as they fired on him, and was near catching several 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:12.800 of them. He pursued two of them separately, so close 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:15.040 that they were obliged to throw aside their guns and 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:18.080 pouches and throw themselves into the river, although the bank 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:19.760 was nearly twenty feet perpendicular. 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:20.560 Oh my god. 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.520 Yeah, so enraged was this animal that he plunged into 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:26.720 the river only a few feet behind the second man 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:29.320 he had compelled to take refuge in the water. When 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:31.200 one of those he still remained on the shore shot 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:32.880 him through the head and finally killed him. 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.160 That's not fair. They should have let him have that guy. 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:40.399 Yeah's eye for an eye, Like it's fascinating to me, 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:44.119 right that, like you do see this sometimes in like 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:47.280 indigenous people's records. Right, there was I forget his name, 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:51.440 I forgot I was reading about this one Indigenous American 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:52.680 guy who was like, every time I see a bear, 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:53.879 I got to go try to take it on. But 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:57.520 like he recognized that was like not a normal response, right, 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:00.760 Whereas apparently everyone in Lewis and Clark's party was immediately 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:04.280 after killing the first bear they saw, despite having been 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:05.080 told we. 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:06.159 Found the murder monster. 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:10.560 Yeah, it tells me so much about the American psyche, 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:12.399 right that the Indigenous people were like, you know, they 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:13.560 they will kill you. 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:15.399 And like how much bear meat were they eating? 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.199 Yeah, I mean it may be a bit. I don't know, 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:20.600 like you can eat bare meats kind of greasy from 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:21.199 what I understand. 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.800 So they're just going after bears just because it's fun. 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:26.640 I do understand that Lewis and Clark had to collect 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:30.639 and catalog animals, which obviously they didn't bring them back alive. Right, 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:33.640 they brought back skulls and hides and that kind of thing, 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:36.680 so that the Western way of understanding the world could 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:39.000 catalog and understand these animals. And there is a great 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:41.720 deal of knowledge that that way of seeing the world 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:44.600 gain from that expedition. But they also mixed it up 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:47.320 with a lot of bears. You can read more examples 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:50.879 in their diaries. There's this idea that still exists in 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:54.760 parts of the American sort of psyche that we don't 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:57.080 have to live alongside nature. We have to conquer it right, 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:00.920 that we have to prove us are like apex position, 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:02.960 and that doesn't always go well for us. 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:04.960 I don't need to prove anything to a bear. 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:08.719 Yeah, I'm at peace. I'm happy to coexist with bears. 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:11.720 I'm happy that they're there, They're happy that I'm here. 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:14.280 I hope we can have a nice time. I don't 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:16.360 want to fight with bears. Lewis and Clark, by the way, 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:18.640 I find that Lewis and clark Is vision fascinating. Like 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:21.440 at the time they were crossing the plains, they were 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:25.119 meeting with indigenous people who had been to Paris to 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:26.639 check it out and come home. 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:28.959 I have no concept of that. 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:32.359 Right. We see them as like questing into the great unknown, 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:33.960 and these people are like, yeah, no, I went over, 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:34.560 but those. 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:36.200 People have, they've been out back. 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:36.480 Yeah. 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:38.480 Yeah, they just didn't want it right. They came back 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.080 because they liked it. They were having they were fine. 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:44.280 It wasn't that they hadn't been exposed to the European world. 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:47.960 It was just that the European world had not physically 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:51.560 expanded to attempt to colonize the places that they lived. Certainly, 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:52.520 this idea that they going on. 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:54.400 It really makes what they did a lot less impressive. 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:55.040 Yeah. 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:57.439 I mean it was a long journey, sure. 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:00.520 I mean people hug the Abaloche of Trail every year. 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:01.680 I'm not impressed. 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:05.199 That does go a perpendiculative. 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:07.000 I'm just saying people walk a thousand miles all the time. 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:08.760 Yeah, yeah, yeah. They did a lot of canoeing. It's 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:11.200 a weird hobby Lewis and Clark. It's just a fun hobby. 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:14.520 I like walking. But yeah, I mean it's an impressive journey. 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:16.040 But like I think sometimes we have this idea of 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:18.040 them like questing into the unknown, and that's just not it. 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:19.560 That have met people who have been like oh yeah, 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:23.520 I've been there, Like, what do you think of Paris. Sadly, 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:27.480 the Lewis and Clark expedition was not the low point 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:30.680 for the grizzly bear population, but money. Talking of low points, 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:33.199 now is a time for us to transition to an 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:47.920 advertisement for products and services. All right, we are back. 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:51.560 I want to quote from a federal court case here 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:54.359 on protections for bears. By the nineteen thirties, just one 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:57.080 hundred and twenty five years after European settlers moved into 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:00.480 Grizzly Country, grizzly bears were found in only twocent of 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:03.720 their former range. Nor did this monk the low point 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:07.200 for the grizzly Thirty seven separate grizzly populations were identified 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:10.359 in the contiguous United States in nineteen twenty two. Only 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:13.160 six remained nineteen seventy five. 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:17.240 So is this largely habitat encroachment or over hunting or 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:18.359 I mean, obviously. 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:19.480 Both all of the above. 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:21.280 Like, so we were just going out there and shooting them, 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:22.640 just the bounties. 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:25.919 There were bounties for men by the millions. Yeah, they 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:27.080 were paying people to shoot the bears. 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:28.760 We've got a buffalo situation. 0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:30.640 Yeah, yeah, we got a buffalo situation here. 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:34.240 So this wasn't just like people doing hobby hunting and 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:37.760 like concurrent habitat encroachment. This was like an intentional destruction 0:22:37.920 --> 0:22:38.359 of bear. 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:42.720 The bear doesn't coexist well with like the human habitation 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:45.280 and specifically like animal. 0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:47.040 Agriculture, right, like it is that's not a great name. 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:49.880 Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't give a fuck, and it's 0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:53.760 a big animal and it will tear shit down and 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:56.239 people are scared of it. Bears used to live all 0:22:56.240 --> 0:22:59.280 across the plains, right, It was only a small segment 0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:02.320 of the bears that in the mountains. They're the ones 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:04.439 that survived, just because those are the areas that it 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:06.360 was harder to make amenable to capitalism. 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:09.679 That never occurred to me. Yeah, that never occurred to me. 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:12.080 That they have retreated from the hills to get away 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:12.600 from us. 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:15.040 Yeah, I don't think it's that the Plains bears went 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:16.760 to the hills. I think it's that the Plains bears 0:23:16.760 --> 0:23:17.480 are gone. 0:23:17.240 --> 0:23:19.320 Right, They're just the ones that survived because they were 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:21.080 like that's crazy. 0:23:21.400 --> 0:23:23.400 The bears just used to be roaming around down here. 0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:26.119 Yeah, the bears would be out and about. Actually, the 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:29.639 eastern most grizzly bear sow with cubs that I'm aware 0:23:29.680 --> 0:23:33.960 of is on the APR, like in the Missouri River 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:36.840 breaks that's in the American Prairie Reserve. People who didn't 0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:39.720 listen to a Buffalo episode callback, Yeah, that's what's what 0:23:39.760 --> 0:23:41.879 they call a call back in the industry. The bears 0:23:41.960 --> 0:23:44.080 used to be all around, right, Like, I guess maybe 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:47.120 if the plains right or an area that's especially kind 0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:51.280 of appealing, especially when we look at like the period 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:54.040 after the nineteen twenties, right when people were trying to 0:23:55.040 --> 0:23:59.200 bring the planet to heal through the application of technology. Right. 0:23:59.560 --> 0:24:02.119 I think it's I'll do Leopold who talks about the 0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:05.320 way humans fuck with ecosystems as a bit like somebody 0:24:05.320 --> 0:24:07.639 who doesn't know how Watch works taking a part of 0:24:07.720 --> 0:24:10.480 Watch just being like that fucking cogails doesn't look like 0:24:10.520 --> 0:24:11.960 it's doing much to me. Let me whip that bad 0:24:12.000 --> 0:24:13.520 boy out, like make it lighter. 0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:17.360 I always think of what was it somebody who's colonizing 0:24:17.400 --> 0:24:21.280 and farming in Hawaii brought mongoose because they thought the 0:24:21.280 --> 0:24:24.240 mongoose would eat some They thought the mongoose would eat 0:24:24.280 --> 0:24:25.879 something that was causing a problem for the crops. 0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:27.639 It turns out the mongoose don't even eat that so now, 0:24:27.760 --> 0:24:29.440 but like feral mongie. 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:31.919 Sometimes, like around sunset at the beach, you'll see all 0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:34.280 these like mongoose just like coming out of the underbrush 0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:35.200 taking over the beach. 0:24:36.119 --> 0:24:37.320 Okay, that's amazing. 0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:39.080 Because like they have no natural predators there. 0:24:39.080 --> 0:24:42.280 Yeah, right, like yeah, introducing animals into ecosystems and removing 0:24:42.280 --> 0:24:45.960 animals from ecosystems has all these downstream effects that like 0:24:46.119 --> 0:24:50.280 we never think, like I am to Sophie about this today. 0:24:50.480 --> 0:24:52.480 Like I grew up in the UK, right, where we 0:24:52.520 --> 0:24:53.720 have tons of rabbits. 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:55.800 Oh, she has a rabbit in the garden today, does 0:24:55.800 --> 0:24:56.159 she show you? 0:24:56.280 --> 0:24:58.320 Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, I've seen a rabbit. Yeah, it's 0:24:58.359 --> 0:25:02.480 able to identify it. The rabbit population is high in 0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:05.080 part because we've removed many of their predators. Right, the 0:25:05.119 --> 0:25:07.560 wolves are gone in the UK, The bears are gone 0:25:07.560 --> 0:25:10.120 in the UK. We have some foxes, but not as 0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:13.960 many because they are dangerous to sheep populations. 0:25:14.040 --> 0:25:14.200 Right. 0:25:14.880 --> 0:25:17.919 We have some raptors, but not as many. So now 0:25:17.920 --> 0:25:19.640 we have times to rabbits. When the rabbits do well, 0:25:19.680 --> 0:25:22.800 they eat crops in part, right, and they come in 0:25:22.840 --> 0:25:26.119 and eat your carrots as depicted in the Peter rabbit. 0:25:26.560 --> 0:25:29.080 Oh, a Peter rabbit is just tearing the garden apart 0:25:29.440 --> 0:25:31.000 every day. Mister McGregor was right. 0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:36.399 It's a bold statement. Molly Konga childhood villain. Now, the 0:25:36.480 --> 0:25:38.520 rabbits have a disease called mix and mitosis, which is 0:25:38.720 --> 0:25:44.200 horrific disease where like they sort of become almost like zombified. Yeah, 0:25:44.280 --> 0:25:46.200 I think it. It came from Australia. 0:25:46.480 --> 0:25:47.600 They've got a rabbit problem. 0:25:47.800 --> 0:25:49.440 Well, they were trying to eradicate them, right, so. 0:25:49.640 --> 0:25:51.639 Also they invented a rabbit disease. 0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:53.800 I don't know this is what now I'm wondering if 0:25:53.800 --> 0:25:55.160 they invented the rabbit disease. 0:25:55.160 --> 0:25:58.159 Lit's because they did that to another invasive animal. 0:25:58.240 --> 0:25:59.520 Right, Well, they lost a war. 0:25:59.840 --> 0:26:01.560 They gave them all a disease. 0:26:02.280 --> 0:26:04.840 I'm not even then they lose a war against emuse, 0:26:05.280 --> 0:26:08.679 that's right. The Australians really have a bad record. 0:26:09.320 --> 0:26:09.560 Yeah. 0:26:09.600 --> 0:26:12.280 So basically it is a disease that existed in American 0:26:12.359 --> 0:26:15.240 rabbits only causes mild issues with them, but it is 0:26:15.520 --> 0:26:18.240 horrific in European rabbits. 0:26:18.600 --> 0:26:20.440 Yeah, it looks like they did it on purpose. Yep, 0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:22.840 you know creat up guys. 0:26:23.320 --> 0:26:27.080 Yeah, mixmatosis and rabbits, like is a thing that like 0:26:27.200 --> 0:26:29.359 genuinely as a kid would like, So I used to 0:26:29.440 --> 0:26:30.919 shoot a lot of rabbits when I was a kid, Right, 0:26:30.920 --> 0:26:32.879 and you shoot these rabbits with mixed motosis and be 0:26:32.920 --> 0:26:36.400 like what the fuck is this? Like how have we 0:26:36.560 --> 0:26:41.400 done this to a living creature? They become so incapacitated 0:26:41.400 --> 0:26:44.080 that like sometimes crows will start eating them before they've died, 0:26:44.480 --> 0:26:47.359 or like they wander onto the road and get hit. Right, 0:26:47.359 --> 0:26:48.879 it's really really really horrible. 0:26:48.920 --> 0:26:50.840 Oh I'm looking this up and I regret. 0:26:51.000 --> 0:26:55.000 Yeah, no, yeah, Google makes motosis pictures at your own risk. 0:26:55.080 --> 0:26:56.200 No, don't, actually don't. 0:26:56.240 --> 0:26:56.440 Yeah. 0:26:56.480 --> 0:26:58.639 It almost looks like they have like cataracts over their 0:26:59.119 --> 0:27:01.919 their eyes. It's it's really really horrible, right, But like, 0:27:02.440 --> 0:27:07.159 this is what happens when we continually try and mess 0:27:07.200 --> 0:27:10.800 with an ecosystem that has existed in harmony, and like 0:27:10.920 --> 0:27:14.040 it changes based on inputs and changes in the climate. Right, Like, 0:27:14.080 --> 0:27:16.840 it's not like it's a fixed thing. It has shifted 0:27:16.880 --> 0:27:19.520 and changed through time, but it has found a balance 0:27:20.280 --> 0:27:22.280 every time. And then we come in and just keep 0:27:22.359 --> 0:27:24.040 pressing one side of the scale. 0:27:24.119 --> 0:27:24.720 This will fix it. 0:27:24.880 --> 0:27:29.040 Yeah, more, but keep chucking more on there and wondering. 0:27:28.800 --> 0:27:29.720 Kill the bears back. 0:27:29.840 --> 0:27:33.080 I just I can't get that's just like a child's 0:27:33.080 --> 0:27:34.040 approach to things. 0:27:34.520 --> 0:27:38.359 This is our policy, right, Like, okay, so let's talk 0:27:38.400 --> 0:27:41.320 about Zincy, right, let's talk about let's talk about the 0:27:41.320 --> 0:27:44.840 protections that he wants to take away. These protections were 0:27:44.880 --> 0:27:47.520 passed into law by the Endangered Species Act in nineteen 0:27:47.560 --> 0:27:51.480 seventy three, and the Endangered Species Act lists grizzly bears 0:27:51.480 --> 0:27:54.399 and the lower forty eight as threatened. If you're not 0:27:54.400 --> 0:27:57.440 familiar with the essay, it prevents you from hunting, harming, 0:27:57.560 --> 0:27:59.960 or harassing lifted species without a special permit. 0:28:00.200 --> 0:28:03.040 Maybe he thought he's supposed to threaten them. 0:28:02.920 --> 0:28:05.200 Yeah, yeah, like harass them, Like maybe it's going to 0:28:05.240 --> 0:28:06.520 do it threatened yea, these. 0:28:06.400 --> 0:28:07.920 Are threatening, of course we should threaten. 0:28:08.160 --> 0:28:10.280 Yeah, he was going to post a mean tweet about them. 0:28:10.800 --> 0:28:12.720 They didn't want to be accused of harassing them and 0:28:13.119 --> 0:28:16.479 violating the essay. One thing the ESA does not do 0:28:16.680 --> 0:28:19.120 is prevent you from defending yourself against these bears, which 0:28:19.200 --> 0:28:22.000 it seems to be the implication in his post, right 0:28:22.080 --> 0:28:23.520 that like, because you're in you're. 0:28:23.400 --> 0:28:25.879 Allowed to defend yourself against a person, so I'm sure. 0:28:26.200 --> 0:28:29.280 It's likewise a bet. There was a Night's case not 0:28:29.320 --> 0:28:31.919 so long ago about someone who had killed three grizzly bears. 0:28:32.320 --> 0:28:35.119 So if you get arrested for killing an endangered animal, 0:28:35.640 --> 0:28:37.439 is it like a murder trial where you have to 0:28:37.480 --> 0:28:38.520 like prove self defense? 0:28:38.880 --> 0:28:40.960 I think it would depend on where you did it, right. 0:28:41.200 --> 0:28:44.160 I was standing my ground your Yeah, sure I was. 0:28:45.680 --> 0:28:47.640 I don't even want to make jokes about standiy Grand Miles, 0:28:47.640 --> 0:28:52.120 because fucking horrible. The nine second opinion says we hold 0:28:52.160 --> 0:28:55.520 the good faith belief defense for a prosecution and then 0:28:55.520 --> 0:28:58.560 they give the theal code. Right, it's governed by subjective 0:28:58.640 --> 0:29:02.120 rather than objective standard satisfied when the defendant actually, even 0:29:02.120 --> 0:29:06.000 as unreasonably, believes his actions are necessary to protect himself 0:29:06.000 --> 0:29:09.120 with others from perceived danger from a grisly bear. 0:29:09.640 --> 0:29:12.840 That's interesting that the language, because you don't see that, 0:29:12.880 --> 0:29:14.840 and so in self defense in like if I harmed 0:29:14.840 --> 0:29:17.200 you and an actual No, it doesn't have to be actual, 0:29:17.200 --> 0:29:19.400 but it has to be a reasonable assumption, like my 0:29:19.480 --> 0:29:22.840 belief has to be reasonable. But in Listen, there's saying 0:29:22.920 --> 0:29:25.280 it's okay if your belief was unreasonable. Yeah, if you're 0:29:25.320 --> 0:29:26.640 just scared dumb as well. 0:29:27.080 --> 0:29:29.360 Yeah, yeah, if you if you have no idea what 0:29:29.400 --> 0:29:31.760 you're doing, you can still kill these bears, right, Like, 0:29:31.840 --> 0:29:35.440 it gives you a very broad remit for self defense. 0:29:35.120 --> 0:29:38.040 Because you could just say you felt that way, because 0:29:38.040 --> 0:29:39.920 it doesn't matter if that's reasonable or not. 0:29:40.160 --> 0:29:41.960 Yeah, so it effectively doesn't matter. 0:29:42.400 --> 0:29:45.120 Yeah, effectively if you if you are willing to state 0:29:45.480 --> 0:29:47.200 in court that you were threatened by the bear, I 0:29:47.200 --> 0:29:48.800 felt that way, right, it seems like you can you 0:29:48.800 --> 0:29:51.200 can shoot the bear. I almost just scared. I'm as 0:29:51.200 --> 0:29:54.280 scaredy cat. Maybe it relies on toxic masculinity to like 0:29:54.360 --> 0:29:57.160 self self police itself and it's scared. 0:29:57.360 --> 0:29:57.520 No. 0:29:58.680 --> 0:30:01.640 It also, of course, the say does not include animals 0:30:01.680 --> 0:30:04.400 based on how dangerous they are. So like Xinki's argument 0:30:04.520 --> 0:30:07.440 that we should deal with bears because two people got 0:30:07.520 --> 0:30:09.400 hurt one person got killed, it doesn't line up with 0:30:09.400 --> 0:30:10.560 why the essay exists. 0:30:10.640 --> 0:30:12.640 And like I'm very sorry for those people, of course, 0:30:12.680 --> 0:30:15.200 but like that's not like an epidemic of bear attacks. 0:30:15.320 --> 0:30:18.640 No, cattle kill more people by a factor of ten 0:30:18.840 --> 0:30:19.280 than bears. 0:30:19.440 --> 0:30:21.160 Dogs kill more people with guns. 0:30:21.200 --> 0:30:24.040 Yeah, lightning kills more people than bears. 0:30:24.120 --> 0:30:26.320 Dog shot a lady with a gun the other day. 0:30:26.480 --> 0:30:29.520 Oh wow, Well, good for him, like it's good to 0:30:29.560 --> 0:30:32.560 see people pushing boundaries. I like, bad for her. I 0:30:32.560 --> 0:30:35.240 guess I'm sorry to hear that, but I do think 0:30:35.240 --> 0:30:37.000 there are some best practices that could have been followed 0:30:37.040 --> 0:30:38.680 there that I prevented the dog shooting. 0:30:39.000 --> 0:30:41.920 The dog was certainly not certified on the range, right. 0:30:41.840 --> 0:30:44.560 Yeah, the dog hadn't gone taken his apple seed clinic 0:30:44.600 --> 0:30:48.560 or whatever. So the ESA, right, it distinguishes between a 0:30:48.600 --> 0:30:51.800 threatened and engaged species and danger species is quote in 0:30:51.880 --> 0:30:54.520 danger of extinction throughout all or a significant part of 0:30:54.560 --> 0:30:57.720 its range. A threatened species is quote likely to become 0:30:57.720 --> 0:31:00.320 an endangered species within the foreseeable future throughout all or 0:31:00.360 --> 0:31:01.800 a significant portion of its range. 0:31:01.920 --> 0:31:03.520 Right, Like if we start killing them. 0:31:03.640 --> 0:31:06.440 Yeah, or keep killing them, yeah. 0:31:06.520 --> 0:31:08.640 Right, Ryan, Zincy just opens up on bears. 0:31:09.000 --> 0:31:14.360 Yeah, yeah, Zincy taking his Navy steel training and going the. 0:31:13.520 --> 0:31:15.480 Sealed Teams six is going to Yellowstone. 0:31:15.560 --> 0:31:19.200 Yeah yeah, they're going after that bear. Then you know, 0:31:19.240 --> 0:31:21.760 then then they look at reasons for this great disease, predation, 0:31:22.680 --> 0:31:27.360 destruction of habitat, commercial take, inadequacy of regulatory mechanisms to 0:31:27.400 --> 0:31:31.360 protect them, or natural or man made factors, including brand 0:31:31.440 --> 0:31:36.320 Zincy killing them because grizzly bears in the lower forty 0:31:36.360 --> 0:31:40.880 eight are threatened. There are defined ecosystems. There are six 0:31:40.920 --> 0:31:43.680 of them in which we're trying to recover the their population. 0:31:43.760 --> 0:31:46.560 So one of these is a Greater Yellowstone ecosystem. The 0:31:46.640 --> 0:31:49.920 Yellowstone Bears have been ping ponged around the ESA for 0:31:50.000 --> 0:31:52.800 some time. As it turns out, the bears were removed 0:31:52.800 --> 0:31:54.560 in two thousand and seven and then returned in two 0:31:54.560 --> 0:31:57.200 thousand and nine by a court decision. Then it was 0:31:57.240 --> 0:32:00.840 removed again under Zinc in the first Strump administration. 0:32:01.280 --> 0:32:03.600 I feel like, if you're on the cusp like that, 0:32:04.120 --> 0:32:05.000 leave it alone. 0:32:05.280 --> 0:32:07.840 Like obviously if every time you dealist them they become 0:32:08.080 --> 0:32:10.040 threatened again, like, leave them alone. 0:32:10.120 --> 0:32:11.920 Yeah, that's it. Well, in this case, it wasn't. The 0:32:12.560 --> 0:32:16.080 reason for the delisting was challenged in court and found 0:32:16.120 --> 0:32:19.480 to be insufficient. It wasn't that a population like to 0:32:19.520 --> 0:32:20.000 could dive. 0:32:20.720 --> 0:32:22.520 We're just changing our mind about how much we care 0:32:22.520 --> 0:32:23.160 about bears. 0:32:23.560 --> 0:32:26.680 Yeah, or like in this case, basically what the court said, 0:32:26.680 --> 0:32:28.800 I can actually read you from the court order. It's 0:32:28.920 --> 0:32:32.200 crow Indian try their al versus USA. The policy implications 0:32:32.200 --> 0:32:35.120 of Great Yellowstone Grizzly delisting are significant, but they cannot 0:32:35.160 --> 0:32:38.240 affect the court's disposition. Althose order may have impacts throughout 0:32:38.280 --> 0:32:41.160 grisly country beyond. This case is not about the ethics 0:32:41.160 --> 0:32:44.920 of hunting. It's not about solving human or livestock grisly conflicts. 0:32:44.920 --> 0:32:47.480 As a practical or philosophical matter, these issues are not 0:32:47.520 --> 0:32:50.760 before the court. Then, little ellipses where I've skipped a 0:32:50.760 --> 0:32:54.120 bit by delisting the Great Yellowstone Grizzly without analyzing how 0:32:54.160 --> 0:32:56.920 delisting would affect the remaining members of the lower forty 0:32:56.960 --> 0:33:00.600 eight Grizzly designation. The Service failed to consider how reduced 0:33:00.600 --> 0:33:03.640 protections for the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem would impact the other 0:33:03.680 --> 0:33:07.320 grisly populations. Thus, the Service entirely failed to consider an 0:33:07.360 --> 0:33:09.000 important aspect of the problem. 0:33:09.200 --> 0:33:10.600 So the Bear has got a good lawyer. 0:33:10.840 --> 0:33:12.680 There were two different court cases and they were combined 0:33:12.680 --> 0:33:14.960 in this Montana case. Then they got a good lawyer. 0:33:15.720 --> 0:33:17.680 Essentially that what they're saying though, right, is that like 0:33:18.600 --> 0:33:20.480 this is an issue which we have to look at 0:33:20.520 --> 0:33:25.080 like nationally, because if we have state controller and Wyoming 0:33:25.400 --> 0:33:28.200 or Montana of the three states, right, Wyoming, Montana and Idaho. 0:33:28.480 --> 0:33:29.800 One of them says that we've got too many bears 0:33:29.920 --> 0:33:31.560 killing too many cows. That so open it up on 0:33:31.600 --> 0:33:35.320 the bears, open season on bears. The bears don't know 0:33:35.320 --> 0:33:36.320 what state they're in. 0:33:36.480 --> 0:33:38.120 They simply do not respect borders. 0:33:38.400 --> 0:33:40.760 They do not they Yeah, they refuse. 0:33:40.440 --> 0:33:43.040 To graistictional boundaries meaningless. 0:33:42.600 --> 0:33:46.360 To they engage in interstate commerce. So this one, it's 0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:50.960 going to be like a federally controlled issue. Unfortunately, our 0:33:50.960 --> 0:33:53.960 federal government right now is not one that's massively amenable 0:33:53.960 --> 0:33:54.600 to conservation. 0:33:54.760 --> 0:33:56.160 It's run by bear murderers. 0:33:56.240 --> 0:33:58.560 Yeah, they would love to mert. I mean Donald Trump's son, 0:33:58.680 --> 0:34:00.600 right is big into Oh. 0:34:00.560 --> 0:34:03.000 He does love big game hunting, doesn't he does? He 0:34:03.120 --> 0:34:04.280 does some of those like rich boys afar. 0:34:04.440 --> 0:34:05.360 Yeah, he's got It's funny. 0:34:05.400 --> 0:34:07.120 Someone was like, oh, someone was talking to me the 0:34:07.160 --> 0:34:09.280 other day about like you should picture this outdoor publication, 0:34:09.360 --> 0:34:11.720 and then I realized it was owned by Trump Junior. 0:34:11.880 --> 0:34:15.520 So that's a no from me. That's a clear note 0:34:15.560 --> 0:34:19.359 for me. But they love conservations, Yeah, Like I would 0:34:19.360 --> 0:34:21.960 be down to picture hunting publication about like the damage 0:34:21.960 --> 0:34:23.840 that the border wall does to our landscapes and our 0:34:23.960 --> 0:34:26.200 and our like I've seen a mule deer try and 0:34:26.200 --> 0:34:28.520 get through the border wall and it's very very Yeah, 0:34:28.520 --> 0:34:31.440 it's really sad because she had been habituated going that 0:34:31.480 --> 0:34:35.799 way for water genetically for generations, right, and now she 0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:38.920 can't And uh, yeah, that's pretty fucked. I'd love to 0:34:38.920 --> 0:34:40.920 write that for a hunting publication, not writing it for 0:34:40.960 --> 0:34:43.399 Donald Trump Junior's one. I don't think he's commissioning it either. 0:34:43.440 --> 0:34:46.320 To be honest, I don't think. I think they're probably 0:34:46.440 --> 0:34:50.600 using if I'd had to guess some artificial intelligence, but 0:34:50.920 --> 0:34:53.680 I've never actually read it. I'm not going to. Don't 0:34:53.719 --> 0:34:55.960 care if you're interested in the ESSA and what it's 0:34:56.000 --> 0:34:57.319 done for gristie, but I has something to link to. 0:34:57.320 --> 0:34:59.759 A Center for Biological Diversity report, which is pretty good. 0:35:00.000 --> 0:35:03.520 This was published when the ESA was fifty, so it's 0:35:03.520 --> 0:35:06.280 a few years old now. But people will be thinking, 0:35:06.560 --> 0:35:09.400 I have seen pictures of people hunting grizzly bears. I 0:35:09.440 --> 0:35:12.359 thought that you couldn't do that. That's because those bears 0:35:12.360 --> 0:35:15.720 are in Alaska, so they are not considered to be threatened. 0:35:16.040 --> 0:35:17.160 Different bears, yeah. 0:35:17.120 --> 0:35:19.399 Or like the same species of bears. They just live 0:35:19.440 --> 0:35:19.879 somewhere else. 0:35:20.360 --> 0:35:25.799 Arctos horribilis. Yeah, the same horibles. Yeah, yeah, they really 0:35:25.800 --> 0:35:28.399 are for him. Yeah, they really screwed him on the name. 0:35:28.800 --> 0:35:32.880 This is part of the way the colonial mindset interacts 0:35:32.880 --> 0:35:38.319 with nature, right, horrible mister horrible Yeah, horrible bear. That's me, 0:35:39.280 --> 0:35:42.680 Like I'm aware of like Arctos Syriacus, which is the 0:35:42.800 --> 0:35:46.920 Syrian there, fine, except that makes sense, that's descriptive. He 0:35:47.120 --> 0:35:51.600 also lives in other parts of the region. But that's okay. Yeah, yeah, 0:35:51.600 --> 0:35:54.279 we could call him Arctos alsham. I guess if we 0:35:54.320 --> 0:35:57.040 if we wanted to get with it there there are 0:35:57.040 --> 0:35:59.239 translations to the Bible that used Syria to describe the 0:35:59.280 --> 0:36:01.400 whole region as well, so it did. It's okay, but 0:36:01.480 --> 0:36:04.520 like horrible bear, Yeah, horrible bear. They really did him 0:36:04.520 --> 0:36:07.000 dirty on that. One could have got it nice bear. 0:36:07.400 --> 0:36:09.440 Maybe our petition for that, he should. 0:36:09.160 --> 0:36:11.000 Call it those lawyers from Montana. 0:36:11.040 --> 0:36:13.440 I get the coalition together again with the crow tribe, 0:36:13.960 --> 0:36:16.279 the bear. It's not inherently horrible, right, We've just been 0:36:16.280 --> 0:36:18.799 horrible to the bear. He's just doing what he does. 0:36:19.000 --> 0:36:20.240 Maybe that's why he's so bad. 0:36:20.320 --> 0:36:22.120 Maybe, right, He's like, you know, if you're gonna call 0:36:22.160 --> 0:36:23.280 me horrible, I'll be horrible. 0:36:23.800 --> 0:36:27.320 Yeah, maybe maybe, maybe he's he's playing to the stereotype. 0:36:27.840 --> 0:36:30.760 So the Alaska bears can be hunted, right, they are hunted. 0:36:31.320 --> 0:36:34.040 Things do get a little complicated in Alaska with different 0:36:34.080 --> 0:36:37.319 rules gaverning sport hunting and subsistence hunting at federal land 0:36:37.640 --> 0:36:41.920 and state land. There is a coal program in Alaska 0:36:42.000 --> 0:36:45.400 right now that is understandably very controversial. The idea is 0:36:45.440 --> 0:36:48.560 that they will cull the bear to help the caribou 0:36:48.600 --> 0:36:52.759 population recover. You are looking at a thing which is 0:36:52.840 --> 0:36:56.520 multi factorial and only. But this is like taking the 0:36:56.520 --> 0:36:59.440 part out of the watch right that was talking about. 0:36:58.760 --> 0:37:00.800 Like, because other things go on for the cariboo. 0:37:01.000 --> 0:37:03.400 Yeah, yeah, it's not the bear who moved into the 0:37:03.440 --> 0:37:06.640 cariboo's home. It is people, right like. And it's not 0:37:06.680 --> 0:37:08.640 the bear who caused climate change. 0:37:08.360 --> 0:37:08.680 Right like. 0:37:09.320 --> 0:37:11.920 There are other factors we could address, but we're taking 0:37:11.920 --> 0:37:12.600 it out on the bear. 0:37:12.760 --> 0:37:15.760 Yeah, which will be a common theme throughout our discussion 0:37:15.800 --> 0:37:18.400 here today. But I understand that we want the caribou 0:37:18.440 --> 0:37:20.600 herd to survive as well. But if you're trying to 0:37:20.600 --> 0:37:23.600 manage the caribou herd for hunting by controlling bear populations 0:37:23.600 --> 0:37:27.080 to allow more caribou. I know, I don't think. 0:37:27.000 --> 0:37:28.359 That's we're modifying the wrong varia. 0:37:28.520 --> 0:37:32.360 Yes, pretty gate. Yeah, there is Alaska legislation that I 0:37:32.400 --> 0:37:34.799 thought was interesting to make such programs go through peer 0:37:34.840 --> 0:37:38.440 review that appears to be going absolutely nowhere. It seems 0:37:38.440 --> 0:37:40.239 stuck in the Alaska House. 0:37:40.400 --> 0:37:42.000 So we had to get a bunch of scientists to 0:37:42.040 --> 0:37:44.200 determine whether or not there will be environmental impact of 0:37:44.239 --> 0:37:46.680 buffalo going back to where buffalo live, But we can't 0:37:46.719 --> 0:37:49.319 get a scientific review of whether or not we should 0:37:49.320 --> 0:37:50.080 be killing the bears. 0:37:50.160 --> 0:37:52.239 Yes, I know that there are other reasons for us 0:37:52.239 --> 0:37:55.399 to do environmental impact studies like hydrology and stuff. Thank 0:37:55.440 --> 0:37:59.359 you Eis people who reached out. We appreciate all our 0:37:59.600 --> 0:38:02.120 science listeners. But yeah, it is pretty sad that we 0:38:02.160 --> 0:38:04.319 can't get up get a I guess the argument would 0:38:04.320 --> 0:38:07.360 be per review takes too long, okay, but like you 0:38:07.360 --> 0:38:09.319 could get a couple of people to be like, you 0:38:09.360 --> 0:38:11.000 know what, it takes a lot longer to get all 0:38:11.040 --> 0:38:13.520 the bears back. Get a couple of scientists. It wouldn't 0:38:13.520 --> 0:38:16.000 take that long that they need jobs right now. Get 0:38:16.000 --> 0:38:18.319 a couple of bear scientists and employe see how it goes. 0:38:19.000 --> 0:38:19.680 So let's talk. 0:38:19.520 --> 0:38:24.400 About I guess like wy Zincy wants to delist. 0:38:23.960 --> 0:38:28.640 Them a Bearstol's wife and. 0:38:28.840 --> 0:38:33.439 Like an eating way they live to Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:38:33.520 --> 0:38:36.319 she's she's living her best life. It seems that one 0:38:36.320 --> 0:38:39.680 incident was a sow with cubs who was foraging for berries, 0:38:40.520 --> 0:38:42.239 and on the other one was a bear foraging for 0:38:42.280 --> 0:38:44.320 berries who was surprised. This is nothing to us a 0:38:44.400 --> 0:38:45.320 population levels. 0:38:45.360 --> 0:38:48.400 As I said earlier, it's just like it's an unfortunate 0:38:48.719 --> 0:38:50.800 thing where somebody was in a bad situation. 0:38:51.320 --> 0:38:53.839 Yeah, it's we live in a landscape where things can 0:38:53.920 --> 0:38:56.799 kill you. Most of those things are cars, but some 0:38:56.880 --> 0:38:57.680 of them are animals. 0:38:57.719 --> 0:38:59.120 Well, we should start shooting the cars. 0:38:59.239 --> 0:39:01.920 Yeah, but we don't do a revenge attack on foard 0:39:01.920 --> 0:39:05.040 every time someone gets in a motor accident. Right. I 0:39:05.120 --> 0:39:08.080 looked at bear vault to beare volt. If you're not familiar, 0:39:08.120 --> 0:39:10.240 money makes bear cans. You're familiar with bear cans. 0:39:10.680 --> 0:39:12.439 So it like tin cans you wear around your next 0:39:12.480 --> 0:39:13.719 to you jingle jangle. 0:39:13.640 --> 0:39:16.439 Yes, yes, you can talk to the bear. 0:39:16.719 --> 0:39:18.520 He holds one, can you hold the other one? 0:39:18.560 --> 0:39:20.680 There's a stroke like he's in history house here in 0:39:20.719 --> 0:39:21.840 your tree house exactly. 0:39:21.960 --> 0:39:23.920 Yeah, you say, I'm coming through you, please don't eat me. 0:39:24.200 --> 0:39:24.279 No. 0:39:24.719 --> 0:39:26.759 A bear can is a thing that you put your 0:39:26.800 --> 0:39:27.840 food in when you're camping. 0:39:27.920 --> 0:39:30.640 I was picturing like a big necklace made out of 0:39:30.680 --> 0:39:32.160 like old tin cans, like. 0:39:32.120 --> 0:39:37.280 An old timey a like a ley, but for cans beans. 0:39:37.400 --> 0:39:39.880 Yeah, I don't know why you You wouldn't need to buy that. 0:39:39.920 --> 0:39:40.799 You could make that at home. 0:39:40.880 --> 0:39:43.719 Yeah, you can make that for free. Bere Vault keeps 0:39:43.760 --> 0:39:47.760 like an open source collection of bear maulings. Bears, according 0:39:47.760 --> 0:39:50.120 to their data, have killed sixty six people since nineteen 0:39:50.160 --> 0:39:50.719 seventy four. 0:39:50.880 --> 0:39:52.160 That's not very many. 0:39:52.360 --> 0:39:54.120 It's not a lot of people, right. 0:39:54.440 --> 0:39:56.520 One a year, Yeah, a little more than that. 0:39:56.800 --> 0:39:59.960 It's very, very hard to make a public health argument 0:40:00.080 --> 0:40:01.520 for dlifting brown bears. 0:40:01.800 --> 0:40:04.200 More people, more people than not have measles, like in 0:40:04.239 --> 0:40:05.600 my immediate area. 0:40:05.920 --> 0:40:08.759 Get well, that's a whole other public health issue. I'm 0:40:08.760 --> 0:40:12.720 afraid when they do ESA studies on what kills bears, 0:40:12.760 --> 0:40:15.279 it's human interactions. I noticed a lot of bears, probably 0:40:15.360 --> 0:40:18.560 guns mostly trains. Trains kill a lot of bears. 0:40:19.040 --> 0:40:19.960 That's so sad. 0:40:20.600 --> 0:40:21.560 Yeah, it's really sad. 0:40:21.600 --> 0:40:23.680 So maybe wait, so you're supposed to make noise of 0:40:23.719 --> 0:40:25.600 the bear. Here's you comment. Trains are loud as hell. 0:40:25.880 --> 0:40:29.080 They come pretty fast, I think, and I think that 0:40:29.280 --> 0:40:32.200 they're not like super loud if you're just like if 0:40:32.200 --> 0:40:34.080 they're not trying to be loud, you know, like if 0:40:34.120 --> 0:40:36.799 if you're in a linear direction to the train, maybe 0:40:36.800 --> 0:40:39.360 they're habituated to it because the trains come so regularly. 0:40:39.400 --> 0:40:41.040 I don't know, that's so sad. 0:40:41.200 --> 0:40:43.359 Yeah, I never thought about bear getting hit by a train. 0:40:44.280 --> 0:40:46.720 Yeah, it's good. Bears get hit by cars too, especially 0:40:46.719 --> 0:40:48.640 black bears. I mean, I'm sure brown bears do. They're 0:40:48.640 --> 0:40:51.520 just bigger. I wonder if that's part of why, you know, 0:40:51.920 --> 0:40:54.279 like there's a sort of we can't afford to keep 0:40:54.560 --> 0:40:57.239 smashing our trains on bears situation here. I'm not sure. 0:40:57.280 --> 0:40:59.600 I think the train's probably fine, Yeah, I mean the 0:40:59.640 --> 0:41:00.479 train going. 0:41:00.480 --> 0:41:02.759 Some of those bears are pretty big. I'm sure it 0:41:02.920 --> 0:41:04.440 delays their train operations. 0:41:04.520 --> 0:41:07.399 I mean, if there was like a massive train derailment, yeah, 0:41:07.400 --> 0:41:09.800 that's maybe we need to build a bear fence or something. 0:41:09.920 --> 0:41:10.399 I don't know. 0:41:10.640 --> 0:41:13.400 Yeah, well, we have these wildlife under passes right that 0:41:13.440 --> 0:41:16.239 allow worldlife to go under or over three ways. While 0:41:16.239 --> 0:41:18.440 ago the right was getting really mad about one in 0:41:18.480 --> 0:41:21.680 Santa Monica. This was like a I think Benny Johnson 0:41:21.680 --> 0:41:26.160 had done like an investigation into this overpass. His theory 0:41:26.200 --> 0:41:28.840 here was that the overpass was allowing I'm not joking, 0:41:29.320 --> 0:41:32.360 terrible cougars to come into neighborhoods and kill people's children. 0:41:34.440 --> 0:41:38.920 We came into the cougar's neighborhood, the cougar's, Benny, are 0:41:38.960 --> 0:41:41.920 already fucking there because. 0:41:41.600 --> 0:41:44.759 And how many children have been eaten by cougars in 0:41:44.920 --> 0:41:45.560 Santa Monica. 0:41:45.600 --> 0:41:48.920 I'm aware of one person in California being killed by 0:41:48.960 --> 0:41:51.200 a mountain line in the last few years, and a 0:41:51.239 --> 0:41:54.040 few more people have been killed, and you can think 0:41:54.080 --> 0:41:55.440 of a couple more people. 0:41:55.400 --> 0:41:57.840 But mostly on like hiking trails, right, Like it's not 0:41:57.920 --> 0:41:58.600 their yards. 0:41:58.800 --> 0:42:01.560 Yes, I'm not aware of it. Cougar coming into anybody's house. 0:42:01.600 --> 0:42:04.640 That's not really how the mountain lion lives its life. 0:42:04.680 --> 0:42:08.120 I mean sometimes people's Chihuahuas have lost their lives to 0:42:08.160 --> 0:42:09.040 this scourge. 0:42:09.080 --> 0:42:11.320 I understand, yeah, yeah, but not their children. 0:42:11.520 --> 0:42:13.560 Not their children, And like animals aren't coming to your 0:42:13.560 --> 0:42:15.879 house and taking your child, and the idea that they're 0:42:15.920 --> 0:42:18.560 not there anyway, like they if they want to come 0:42:18.600 --> 0:42:20.640 into your neighborhood. They can come into your neighborhood. They're 0:42:20.680 --> 0:42:22.960 good at moving across country, that's what they do. 0:42:23.480 --> 0:42:25.160 This will just keep you from running into it with 0:42:25.200 --> 0:42:25.880 your lexus. 0:42:25.960 --> 0:42:29.000 Yeah, exactly like it. And it's going to allow like 0:42:29.120 --> 0:42:33.880 the little mice and other small creatures, right that can't 0:42:34.400 --> 0:42:39.239 some nim belief jump over highway barriers. The obvious other 0:42:39.480 --> 0:42:40.879 argument for delisting bears is that. 0:42:40.840 --> 0:42:41.680 People want to kill them. 0:42:41.760 --> 0:42:42.680 Get a different hobby. 0:42:42.800 --> 0:42:45.160 You can even kill black bears in most states in 0:42:45.200 --> 0:42:48.280 the Western United States if that's your thing. Right, It 0:42:48.320 --> 0:42:50.480 seems like a lot of people just don't want bears around, 0:42:50.920 --> 0:42:54.279 and that makes me sad because I think sharing our 0:42:54.320 --> 0:42:57.840 landscape with bears is beautiful and they think it's special 0:42:58.160 --> 0:43:01.080 that we have this thing in this country, Like it's 0:43:01.280 --> 0:43:03.560 one of our national symbolic mammals, right. 0:43:04.040 --> 0:43:06.879 I mean he's like a gigantic guy who just wants 0:43:06.920 --> 0:43:08.160 to eat berries and hang out. 0:43:08.400 --> 0:43:11.080 Yeah, he wants to kill stuff, sure, But. 0:43:11.040 --> 0:43:12.880 Like just I love the idea of just like this 0:43:13.040 --> 0:43:16.400 huge animal just like roaming around looking for a little. 0:43:16.200 --> 0:43:17.520 Sweet treat Yep. 0:43:17.800 --> 0:43:21.719 Yeah, they they they're incresis precious, They're incredibly adaptable, right, 0:43:21.719 --> 0:43:24.080 they can eat berries, they can eat meat, they can 0:43:24.120 --> 0:43:24.840 eat fish. 0:43:25.239 --> 0:43:26.799 I love when they just take one bite of a 0:43:26.800 --> 0:43:28.600 fish and throw it back so wasteful. 0:43:28.680 --> 0:43:31.960 He's just like me, for real, it's too fishy. He 0:43:32.040 --> 0:43:34.120 wants it, yeah, he wants it like a fresh one. 0:43:34.760 --> 0:43:37.520 The other argument, I guess is a certain population to recovered, 0:43:37.520 --> 0:43:40.920 which kind of it shows a misunderstanding the importance of 0:43:40.960 --> 0:43:44.000 having a population for genetic diversity, right, But also like. 0:43:43.960 --> 0:43:46.399 I just I'm really stuck on like, just because there's 0:43:46.400 --> 0:43:47.839 a lot of them doesn't mean you have to kill 0:43:47.920 --> 0:43:49.560 There's a lot of squirrels in my neighborhood, but I'm 0:43:49.600 --> 0:43:50.600 not allowed to shoot them. 0:43:50.640 --> 0:43:52.280 And you can't just do a squirrel genocide. 0:43:52.280 --> 0:43:54.719 I think, oh, there's just a lot of these, I'm 0:43:54.760 --> 0:43:55.879 going to do violence on them. 0:43:56.040 --> 0:43:58.120 Just yeah, I don't do that. There are a lot 0:43:58.120 --> 0:44:01.120 of these, and it's been incoming convenient for us, and 0:44:01.160 --> 0:44:05.680 therefore it's interesting to look at like the certain population 0:44:05.719 --> 0:44:08.000 sort of doing well. At the Yellowstone Bears. The Yellowstone 0:44:08.000 --> 0:44:10.560 Bets are much higher meat content in their diet than 0:44:10.560 --> 0:44:11.200 they used to. 0:44:11.440 --> 0:44:13.040 Well, the tourists the reading, Yes. 0:44:12.880 --> 0:44:15.640 That's right, Yeah, that's mostly it. They feed them into 0:44:15.640 --> 0:44:17.920 the moor every year they drop off a bus at 0:44:17.920 --> 0:44:21.080 the bear cave as an offering, and then the bears 0:44:21.200 --> 0:44:24.320 violated the treaty. That's why they're mad. No, it's because 0:44:24.600 --> 0:44:26.480 climate changes is making it hard for them to find 0:44:26.480 --> 0:44:31.160 their berries right, and human pressure is pushing them further 0:44:31.200 --> 0:44:33.840 and further away from certain areas. Eating more meat is 0:44:33.880 --> 0:44:36.440 going to lead to more conflict with hunters, both in 0:44:36.520 --> 0:44:38.920 terms of them both being in the same space at 0:44:38.920 --> 0:44:40.319 the same time trying to do the same thing. 0:44:40.440 --> 0:44:43.120 And honestly, it's so harmful for the bears that they've 0:44:43.160 --> 0:44:44.640 all been listening to Jordan Peterson. 0:44:45.280 --> 0:44:48.239 The cardboard diet is not for everybody. 0:44:48.080 --> 0:44:49.080 Just imagining a bear. 0:44:49.480 --> 0:44:50.880 It's not good advice, you guys. 0:44:51.360 --> 0:44:56.000 Yeah. Yeah, They've become like terrible transfhobs. That's really why 0:44:56.000 --> 0:44:57.839 we want to tea list them. I think we can 0:44:57.920 --> 0:45:01.640 look at what happens when animals lose their protections. We 0:45:01.719 --> 0:45:05.160 can see the way that Wyoming, for instance, dealt with wolves. 0:45:05.239 --> 0:45:05.359 Right. 0:45:05.360 --> 0:45:07.520 Are you familiar with this incident last year of that 0:45:07.600 --> 0:45:12.680 wolf that was like horrifically mistreated in Wyoming. Oh that 0:45:12.840 --> 0:45:14.080 was really fucking gross. 0:45:14.320 --> 0:45:15.560 Did they like torture it? 0:45:15.680 --> 0:45:15.960 Yes? 0:45:16.640 --> 0:45:16.960 Why? 0:45:17.360 --> 0:45:19.280 Because I guess it made them feel big and strong. 0:45:19.719 --> 0:45:19.879 Right. 0:45:19.920 --> 0:45:23.480 So again, this isn't about like managing conflict with livestock. 0:45:23.520 --> 0:45:26.799 It's not about like you know, ecological management, it's not. 0:45:27.440 --> 0:45:30.439 This is about people who just want to hurt animals. Yeah, 0:45:30.520 --> 0:45:32.439 because they didn't just kill this wolf because they didn't 0:45:32.440 --> 0:45:33.120 want it around. 0:45:33.880 --> 0:45:35.319 They did look horrible to it. 0:45:35.719 --> 0:45:38.400 Yeah, I mean this guy. There are videos of this, 0:45:38.600 --> 0:45:39.719 right that this guy. 0:45:39.920 --> 0:45:42.000 So they tormented in an animal and then they made 0:45:42.040 --> 0:45:44.840 a video of it. They made like an animal snuff film. 0:45:45.040 --> 0:45:47.000 This is just about torture. 0:45:47.480 --> 0:45:49.560 I'm not saying everyone who wants to dealist Disney Breads 0:45:49.719 --> 0:45:51.759 grispy bears wants to torture them in this way. 0:45:51.800 --> 0:45:55.680 But like this, like this desire to engage in this violence. 0:45:55.840 --> 0:45:58.760 Yeah, like for certain people, right, there's an idea somehow 0:45:58.760 --> 0:46:04.040 that they can prove like strength and virility and masculinity. 0:46:03.640 --> 0:46:04.719 Get into powerlifting. 0:46:05.000 --> 0:46:07.120 Yeah. So what this guy did the people un familiar 0:46:07.160 --> 0:46:08.800 His name is Cody Roberts. 0:46:08.880 --> 0:46:10.120 Who never met a good Cody. 0:46:11.160 --> 0:46:12.240 I've met some nice coadies. 0:46:12.360 --> 0:46:13.440 Oh no, okay, we know what. 0:46:14.120 --> 0:46:18.040 Yeah, he hit the wolf on his he ran down 0:46:18.080 --> 0:46:19.440 the wolf on its snowmobile. 0:46:19.520 --> 0:46:21.440 So it wasn't bothering you. You pursued it. 0:46:21.560 --> 0:46:24.279 Yeah, he chased on his snowmobile. He taped its mouth 0:46:24.360 --> 0:46:26.279 shut and took it to a bar. 0:46:26.760 --> 0:46:28.600 Does this man has a wife? Have a wife and 0:46:28.600 --> 0:46:28.799 a she? 0:46:28.960 --> 0:46:32.480 Okay, that's a good question. I'm trying to work out 0:46:32.480 --> 0:46:36.640 if he went to jail eighteen months formation cremation, uh, 0:46:36.920 --> 0:46:39.319 and he gets a prison term if he fails. He 0:46:39.480 --> 0:46:42.840 fathered guilty plea to fellony animal cruelty. I understand that 0:46:42.840 --> 0:46:46.439 there are people like within the hunting ranching outdoor space 0:46:46.440 --> 0:46:48.880 who think this guy's a piece of shit. There are 0:46:48.880 --> 0:46:51.080 many of them, I know many of them. 0:46:50.960 --> 0:46:53.439 Because that's a very weird thing to do. Like, yeah, 0:46:53.480 --> 0:46:57.400 it's psycho, it's no good thought process. What is shooting it? 0:46:57.560 --> 0:47:00.759 I don't agree with, but I understand that you would 0:47:00.800 --> 0:47:02.879 do that. That's the thing people do. But why did 0:47:02.920 --> 0:47:05.319 you like chase it down and abduct it? 0:47:05.520 --> 0:47:08.560 Yeah? Why did you choose to make this animal suffer? 0:47:09.320 --> 0:47:09.680 Like? 0:47:09.680 --> 0:47:11.359 Like did you just show no respect for life? 0:47:11.560 --> 0:47:11.719 Right? 0:47:11.800 --> 0:47:13.640 Like you we joke like, oh, does you have a 0:47:13.640 --> 0:47:15.480 way of She's okay, but genuinely, this is a person 0:47:15.520 --> 0:47:17.000 who is like a psycho, Like. 0:47:17.280 --> 0:47:19.360 No, I'm not joking. I'm not joking. 0:47:19.400 --> 0:47:23.080 Actually, Like, if you if this is your first instinct 0:47:23.200 --> 0:47:25.080 for how you treat a living creature, like. 0:47:25.440 --> 0:47:27.439 I bet he's not good to women either. 0:47:27.719 --> 0:47:30.640 Yeah, Like, this doesn't seem like a person who people 0:47:30.640 --> 0:47:31.880 should feel safe around. 0:47:32.160 --> 0:47:33.919 Oh it was a young female wolf too. 0:47:34.160 --> 0:47:34.719 Yeah. 0:47:34.800 --> 0:47:37.240 Oh no, what have you found? 0:47:37.560 --> 0:47:38.160 Sorry? 0:47:38.400 --> 0:47:40.160 I just was I found a picture of her. 0:47:40.560 --> 0:47:43.719 Yeah. No, it's really sad. The whole thing is really sad. 0:47:44.360 --> 0:47:47.720 Like to injure this animal right to the to the 0:47:47.760 --> 0:47:51.000 extent that it can't get away or defend itself, and 0:47:51.040 --> 0:47:54.160 then tape up its mouth and then drag it to 0:47:54.200 --> 0:47:55.600 a place where it's going to be in fear for 0:47:55.640 --> 0:47:57.560 the rest of its life before you kill it. It's 0:47:58.360 --> 0:48:02.000 it's unconscionable. It's horrific. I'm not saying that that will 0:48:02.000 --> 0:48:04.399 happen to bears, but I'm saying that. 0:48:04.400 --> 0:48:06.160 Like a bear would be a lot harder to do 0:48:06.200 --> 0:48:06.520 that too. 0:48:06.600 --> 0:48:08.600 Yeah, I would be, you know, I think I think 0:48:08.640 --> 0:48:10.640 as his punishment, this guy should try to do this 0:48:10.719 --> 0:48:11.120 to a bear. 0:48:12.520 --> 0:48:15.000 What I am saying is that even if we like 0:48:15.160 --> 0:48:18.440 go ahead and dealist bears without serious controls, if we 0:48:18.480 --> 0:48:22.480 start to manage them just as like vermin, right, like 0:48:22.560 --> 0:48:26.839 as a pest like this opens up all kinds of avenues, 0:48:27.760 --> 0:48:28.320 and I think. 0:48:28.200 --> 0:48:30.799 A lot of people will find themselves in a situation 0:48:30.960 --> 0:48:32.720 that is beyond their grasp. 0:48:33.239 --> 0:48:35.920 Yeah, right, Like if if suddenly you are if you're 0:48:35.920 --> 0:48:37.520 a guy who's like, yeah, i'd love to shoot a bear, 0:48:37.600 --> 0:48:38.319 now you're allowed to. 0:48:38.600 --> 0:48:40.759 I think people are going to find themselves in situations 0:48:40.800 --> 0:48:41.799 they didn't anticipate. 0:48:42.320 --> 0:48:44.000 Yeah, I know in Alaska, for instance, if you want 0:48:44.000 --> 0:48:46.080 to hunt a brown bear and you're not a NASCAR resident, 0:48:46.120 --> 0:48:48.480 you have to go with a guide. That's probably a 0:48:48.520 --> 0:48:49.120 good thing. 0:48:49.320 --> 0:48:52.280 Right, Like I think if we start killing the bears back, 0:48:52.760 --> 0:48:55.319 more people will get killed, but bears, a lot of 0:48:55.320 --> 0:48:56.759 these guys are gonna die. 0:48:56.840 --> 0:48:58.600 Yeah, yeah, yeah, the bad deaths will go up, without 0:48:58.600 --> 0:49:02.200 a doubt. Yeah yeah, Ready, your your best chance of 0:49:02.640 --> 0:49:07.600 getting into an encounter with a bear is probably hunting, right, Like, 0:49:07.640 --> 0:49:10.080 if you're not not hunting bears necessarily, but let's say 0:49:10.080 --> 0:49:13.960 you're Yeah, because you're moving around the woods quietly, you 0:49:13.960 --> 0:49:14.759 could start the one. 0:49:14.960 --> 0:49:18.520 Right, So that's already against the advice for not encountering. 0:49:19.120 --> 0:49:22.160 And then if you then you're able to shoot something, 0:49:22.719 --> 0:49:26.120 and then you Let's say you're in your backcountry hunting, right, 0:49:26.160 --> 0:49:27.319 you have to backpack them. 0:49:27.760 --> 0:49:28.919 Now you have met me out. 0:49:29.040 --> 0:49:31.319 Yeah so, but then now you're coming back to the 0:49:31.360 --> 0:49:34.640 carcass for your second load of meat. A bear may 0:49:34.640 --> 0:49:36.120 have found that carcass. 0:49:35.719 --> 0:49:37.319 Right, somebody might already be there. 0:49:37.400 --> 0:49:39.520 He might not want to give that up. It's his now, 0:49:39.680 --> 0:49:42.799 Yeah that you Yeah, you're then find yourself in a 0:49:42.800 --> 0:49:45.920 difficult situation. Talking with difficult situations, Molly, I have to 0:49:45.920 --> 0:49:50.279 pivot to advertisements again. Yeah, hopefully this one's not for 0:49:50.600 --> 0:50:06.240 a wolf tape. We are back. Let's talk Molly about 0:50:06.520 --> 0:50:11.840 safety in bear country, grisly country, specifically right after this 0:50:11.960 --> 0:50:14.839 this tragedy where this hiker died in Glassian National Park. 0:50:15.520 --> 0:50:18.080 I have seen a number of articles claiming that bear 0:50:18.120 --> 0:50:22.040 spray is quote a placebo or that you quote shouldn't 0:50:22.080 --> 0:50:23.120 bet your life on it. 0:50:23.280 --> 0:50:25.680 Well, I think if you think it's a placebo, you 0:50:25.719 --> 0:50:26.480 should taste it. 0:50:26.960 --> 0:50:30.040 Yeah, it's It shows a fundamental misunderstanding ifs not only 0:50:30.080 --> 0:50:32.359 how bear spray works, but also what a placebo is. Right, 0:50:32.440 --> 0:50:36.279 Like you three of the words in your title, all 0:50:36.320 --> 0:50:38.640 of the nouns you don't understand. 0:50:38.719 --> 0:50:40.080 The bear doesn't know what it is. 0:50:41.280 --> 0:50:43.120 The placebo effect will not work. 0:50:42.960 --> 0:50:46.160 On bear Yeah right, yeah, exactly, get right. Yeah, well, 0:50:46.200 --> 0:50:49.080 the Placibo effect actually does work on bears. You can 0:50:49.200 --> 0:50:51.840 spray things that are not bear spray and they still. 0:50:51.600 --> 0:50:53.080 Don't like the bear spray before. 0:50:53.320 --> 0:50:56.879 Yeah, it's just the I guess maybe the Perceibo effect. Yeah, 0:50:56.880 --> 0:50:59.879 it's a noise. It's the cloud, like I guess it's 0:50:59.920 --> 0:51:00.760 not really a place. 0:51:01.480 --> 0:51:03.840 Bewildering because it's it's startling. 0:51:04.040 --> 0:51:07.680 Yes, yeah, yeah, but you're not saying it's actually. 0:51:07.800 --> 0:51:11.279 The bear will not have sort of imaginary symptoms of 0:51:11.320 --> 0:51:13.560 bear spray exposure due to their beliefs. 0:51:13.800 --> 0:51:17.800 Yeah, yeah, that they have been bear spray. I should 0:51:17.840 --> 0:51:19.480 note that most of the articles are written by the 0:51:19.480 --> 0:51:20.080 same person. 0:51:20.680 --> 0:51:22.839 So what's his motivation here? 0:51:22.840 --> 0:51:25.280 Why is it he's like, does he own a company 0:51:25.320 --> 0:51:27.680 that sells something that like rivals big bear spray. 0:51:27.960 --> 0:51:30.280 No, it's a person who's got a guy called west 0:51:30.280 --> 0:51:32.360 Saila who used to write for Outside magazine and no 0:51:32.440 --> 0:51:37.000 longer does. There's a escalating trend in the severity of 0:51:37.040 --> 0:51:40.000 his claims about the lack of efficacy of bear spray 0:51:40.520 --> 0:51:45.000 that correlates with him making income that is directly related 0:51:45.040 --> 0:51:47.720 to the number of views on the articles making those claims. 0:51:48.160 --> 0:51:50.719 That is really destroying the information landscape. 0:51:50.960 --> 0:51:52.640 Yeah, I mean I think also people not knowing what 0:51:52.680 --> 0:51:54.760 the fuck they're talking about and being given a platform 0:51:54.800 --> 0:51:57.319 is also destroying the information landscape. Right, but they both 0:51:57.320 --> 0:51:58.319 of those are in play here. 0:51:58.760 --> 0:52:01.880 Really see the sort of escalating way people write because 0:52:01.920 --> 0:52:04.720 their income is dependent on clickbase. 0:52:04.400 --> 0:52:07.319 Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah that the clicks to cash pipeline 0:52:07.520 --> 0:52:08.440 is not helping us. 0:52:08.560 --> 0:52:10.080 I make the same amount of money even if none 0:52:10.080 --> 0:52:11.160 of you listen to my podcast. 0:52:11.239 --> 0:52:13.040 Yeah, you guys, you could all turn this off right now, 0:52:13.120 --> 0:52:19.440 I'd still be poor. This is not true, right, I 0:52:19.480 --> 0:52:22.880 take really strong offense at this. I don't know the 0:52:22.920 --> 0:52:24.560 qudit wait to say this is bullshit? Right? 0:52:24.560 --> 0:52:28.640 Like if Bear Spain never worked and couldn't work, he 0:52:28.719 --> 0:52:31.359 wouldn't be the only one saying it correct. There be 0:52:31.400 --> 0:52:34.319 there will be scores of people saying I tried this 0:52:34.440 --> 0:52:35.360 and nothing happened. 0:52:35.600 --> 0:52:35.880 Yeah. 0:52:35.920 --> 0:52:38.560 Also, like we have data on this, right. This is 0:52:38.600 --> 0:52:41.120 not a thing that we need to pull out of 0:52:41.160 --> 0:52:43.680 our ass. This is not a thing that we need 0:52:43.719 --> 0:52:46.759 to rely on individual anecdotes for. This is not a 0:52:46.760 --> 0:52:48.560 thing that will be determined by the outcome of a 0:52:48.600 --> 0:52:50.560 single incident in Glacier National Park. 0:52:51.320 --> 0:52:53.680 This is a thing that we have masses of data on. 0:52:53.840 --> 0:52:55.080 There's bear scientists. 0:52:55.560 --> 0:52:56.800 I spoke to one, Molly. 0:52:57.120 --> 0:52:57.960 I can't wait to hear that. 0:52:58.480 --> 0:53:02.360 I had a very lovely conversation. He has the two studies, 0:53:03.000 --> 0:53:04.839 and to be clear, where sit sees and I don't 0:53:04.840 --> 0:53:07.120 know if it's just that he didn't read them, or 0:53:07.120 --> 0:53:09.799 he didn't read them well, or that he read them 0:53:09.960 --> 0:53:12.680 to the best of his ability. And this is what 0:53:12.719 --> 0:53:13.240 we're getting. 0:53:13.520 --> 0:53:16.440 I mean, scientific literacy is pretty poor. 0:53:16.600 --> 0:53:19.720 Sure, it's always okay not to write an article making 0:53:19.760 --> 0:53:23.040 claims about something that impacts people's safety if you don't 0:53:23.040 --> 0:53:25.239 know what you're talking about. It's always okay to be 0:53:25.320 --> 0:53:29.399 quiet when we're discussing the people's well being. That's fine. 0:53:29.440 --> 0:53:30.879 Adults talk about it. 0:53:30.840 --> 0:53:33.560 Doesn't impact your substack in the same way. 0:53:33.640 --> 0:53:35.840 But oh, it's a substack situation. 0:53:36.200 --> 0:53:39.440 Yeah, it's a subsect situation. I would suggest that writing 0:53:39.480 --> 0:53:42.640 that best bray is dangerous or useless is akin to 0:53:42.680 --> 0:53:44.719 saying that seat belts are dangerous or useless, and that 0:53:44.800 --> 0:53:47.320 we can, if we look hard enough, find one person 0:53:47.360 --> 0:53:49.719 who was killed by their seat belt, and no one's 0:53:49.760 --> 0:53:52.480 ever been killed by best braidedge. I have been best 0:53:52.520 --> 0:53:53.839 braid more than once. 0:53:54.280 --> 0:53:57.000 Didn't kill me when when we were talking about this earlier, 0:53:57.280 --> 0:53:59.520 this most shocking fact of all to me so far. 0:54:00.400 --> 0:54:05.000 Bear spray is less potent than police pepper spray. 0:54:05.080 --> 0:54:07.120 I believe there's less OC and bear spray. 0:54:07.200 --> 0:54:10.200 I would have assumed it's more, but it's less. Yeah, 0:54:10.239 --> 0:54:12.480 I think the such sensitive nose. 0:54:12.440 --> 0:54:14.200 Very sensitive nose is to be clear, it's still very 0:54:14.239 --> 0:54:16.840 unpleasant for humans like I consider myself to have a 0:54:16.880 --> 0:54:21.000 nose of every sensitivity and having been a recipient a 0:54:21.040 --> 0:54:22.440 bear spray, it's highly unpleasant. 0:54:22.800 --> 0:54:25.279 Right, But I just I thought, you know, I would 0:54:25.280 --> 0:54:27.040 have assumed you said I've been bear sprayed, like, oh, 0:54:27.040 --> 0:54:28.440 that's like way more hardcore. 0:54:28.560 --> 0:54:33.680 Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the bear spray. Part of 0:54:33.719 --> 0:54:35.880 the reason I think that it has less of the 0:54:36.680 --> 0:54:39.520 OC oil in it is that it has to be 0:54:39.520 --> 0:54:42.600 propelled out at a velocity that allows it to be 0:54:42.760 --> 0:54:45.719 used even if the bear is coming at you and 0:54:45.800 --> 0:54:49.040 the wind is blowing towards you. Right, so the bear 0:54:49.160 --> 0:54:50.759 is coming with the wind, so you're spraying of pay 0:54:51.280 --> 0:54:53.440 and then the spray would be you don't want the 0:54:53.440 --> 0:54:55.040 spray to all be blown back to you. Right, you 0:54:55.040 --> 0:54:56.600 want it to be able to get out, to create 0:54:56.640 --> 0:54:59.960 that barrier between you and the bear, and it does. Again, 0:55:00.719 --> 0:55:03.200 doctor Smith's studies have shown the best bait does work 0:55:03.640 --> 0:55:05.360 even with an unfavorable wind. 0:55:05.440 --> 0:55:05.600 Right. 0:55:06.040 --> 0:55:08.799 I will link to both these studies. Everything he's done, 0:55:08.800 --> 0:55:10.960 which I think is really cool because this stuff impacts 0:55:11.000 --> 0:55:14.000 like your safety in Griz country. Everything he's done is 0:55:14.040 --> 0:55:18.400 available publicly for free. Hell yeah, very unusual in the 0:55:18.480 --> 0:55:20.680 in the academic research space, right, But I think it's 0:55:20.680 --> 0:55:22.439 great because it allows you to look at this best 0:55:22.440 --> 0:55:25.040 play as a Perceibo article and then you can go 0:55:25.080 --> 0:55:27.440 find the study. I will link it right here, and 0:55:27.480 --> 0:55:30.239 you can say, huh, sure, seems like this guy can't 0:55:30.280 --> 0:55:31.279 read a study. 0:55:30.960 --> 0:55:33.880 And does he has he read those studies he claims to. 0:55:34.000 --> 0:55:35.719 Yeah, he quotes soon, So it's not. 0:55:35.680 --> 0:55:37.200 That he just isn't aware of them. 0:55:37.360 --> 0:55:41.640 He just doesn't believe the expert because of a personal expert. 0:55:41.680 --> 0:55:46.040 I I think he either didn't grasp the table or 0:55:46.080 --> 0:55:50.239 didn't grasp so the So I again, like the person 0:55:50.239 --> 0:55:52.680 who wate these studies is extremely easy to contact, and 0:55:52.680 --> 0:55:54.560 anyone doing reasonable journalism would do so. 0:55:54.719 --> 0:55:54.879 Right. 0:55:54.880 --> 0:55:56.880 So I guess is he saying I read this study 0:55:56.920 --> 0:55:58.600 and it's wrong, Or is he saying I read the 0:55:58.640 --> 0:55:59.960 study and it agrees. 0:55:59.640 --> 0:56:01.439 With me, saying I read the study and it says 0:56:01.480 --> 0:56:03.440 best bray doesn't work. It agrees with me? 0:56:03.560 --> 0:56:03.759 Yet? 0:56:03.800 --> 0:56:07.040 Oh no, yeah, yeah, he could have just emailed the 0:56:07.120 --> 0:56:08.480 other Could it just usk? 0:56:08.600 --> 0:56:09.239 Could it just usk? 0:56:09.480 --> 0:56:09.960 Yeah? 0:56:10.360 --> 0:56:12.880 So, like there are incidents in the study which are 0:56:13.400 --> 0:56:15.920 it considered successful and non successful uses. Some of the 0:56:15.960 --> 0:56:19.440 non successful uses are with a black bear, when you 0:56:19.480 --> 0:56:22.480 spray it and it comes back later. That is still 0:56:22.560 --> 0:56:25.000 the brown bo is not killing you in that situation, right, 0:56:25.400 --> 0:56:26.520 I'm sorry, a black bear. 0:56:26.480 --> 0:56:29.960 It still works. Like efficacy doesn't mean permanent. 0:56:30.400 --> 0:56:32.600 Yeah, And at some point when you're making a study 0:56:32.640 --> 0:56:35.200 like this, you have to decide, like what a You're 0:56:35.440 --> 0:56:38.040 trying to create a binary relationship about his theories of things. 0:56:38.200 --> 0:56:41.000 Right that the other study he wrote was efficacy of 0:56:41.000 --> 0:56:44.239 Firearms for their defense in Alaska. It's worth noting that 0:56:44.360 --> 0:56:46.799 in the Efficacy of Firearms study, more than one hundred 0:56:46.840 --> 0:56:49.759 and twenty bears died out of a data set something 0:56:49.800 --> 0:56:51.759 like two hundred and fifty. None of the best bray 0:56:51.800 --> 0:56:56.439 bears died. Oh that's a lot right, yeaheah, it's a lot. 0:56:56.040 --> 0:56:58.840 And I feel like it's better if everybody survives the encounter. 0:56:59.000 --> 0:57:02.759 Yeah, it's better for all of us if we use 0:57:02.880 --> 0:57:06.120 this extremely well researched tool. 0:57:06.360 --> 0:57:10.000 Right and again, having read zero studies, I read zero studies, 0:57:11.480 --> 0:57:16.200 but I know only one point one person's a year 0:57:16.280 --> 0:57:20.680 are killed by bears. Yeah, so if this never worked 0:57:20.720 --> 0:57:23.920 and couldn't work, more people would have been killed by bears. 0:57:23.760 --> 0:57:25.880 Maybe, Yeah. Yeah, certainly a lot of people who use 0:57:25.920 --> 0:57:27.800 the best Bray didn't get killed by bears, right. 0:57:27.680 --> 0:57:28.600 Like, none of them did. 0:57:29.280 --> 0:57:31.120 It is possible to use best brain and be killed 0:57:31.120 --> 0:57:32.160 by bears, like. 0:57:32.400 --> 0:57:36.040 Especially happened to It's happened to maybe fifty people reside. 0:57:36.080 --> 0:57:39.880 Yet residues of bear spray will attract bears in the like, 0:57:40.280 --> 0:57:42.880 well that's unfair. Well it's an interesting smell, right, and 0:57:42.880 --> 0:57:45.520 they have an amazing nose, so I'm guessing like they 0:57:45.560 --> 0:57:47.920 will come check it out. And I know that, Like, 0:57:48.000 --> 0:57:50.640 there are instances where people have, for instance, used best 0:57:50.640 --> 0:57:52.440 Pray in the way that one might use bug spray. 0:57:52.560 --> 0:57:53.840 I use spraying their tent. 0:57:54.000 --> 0:57:54.840 That's not going to work. 0:57:54.920 --> 0:57:56.920 Yeah, yeah, well you're going to bring them in. 0:57:57.200 --> 0:57:59.200 That's like saying, I'm going to use this gun to 0:57:59.240 --> 0:58:01.880 protect myself by making a circle around me with bullets. 0:58:01.960 --> 0:58:03.680 Yeah yeah, exactly, smearing myself with. 0:58:03.800 --> 0:58:06.560 It, but the bullets in a circle around my Yeah. 0:58:06.680 --> 0:58:08.720 It's not quite cargo cult thinking, but like it's a 0:58:09.440 --> 0:58:12.120 you know, it's like magical thought process. I guess, like 0:58:12.520 --> 0:58:14.200 that's not how best pay was you spray it at the. 0:58:14.120 --> 0:58:16.840 Bear homeopathic gun is where you just lick the bullets. 0:58:17.280 --> 0:58:17.480 Yeah. 0:58:17.560 --> 0:58:18.280 Yeah. 0:58:18.440 --> 0:58:20.560 Let's talk about the things that you can do, right, 0:58:20.680 --> 0:58:23.800 Like you can keep a clean camp. This is really big, 0:58:24.280 --> 0:58:28.560 don't attract them? Yeah, so if we look at like Yosemite, right, 0:58:28.840 --> 0:58:32.680 Yosemite and that that like Smite Kings Canyon Sequoia Park System, 0:58:33.160 --> 0:58:36.280 you can't bring bear spray in there, right, Oh, but 0:58:36.360 --> 0:58:39.360 you have to have a bear can. So I've backpacked 0:58:39.400 --> 0:58:42.840 in that area. They have done surveys that showed that, 0:58:42.880 --> 0:58:45.520 like most people were acquainted with best bear practices, but 0:58:45.520 --> 0:58:46.880 we're not following them on the trail. 0:58:47.080 --> 0:58:48.240 So it's not that they didn't know better. 0:58:48.320 --> 0:58:49.200 Is the don't care? 0:58:49.360 --> 0:58:52.640 I think people it's hard to like fathom a giant, 0:58:53.480 --> 0:58:56.920 several hundred pound half ton creature. It's going to come 0:58:56.960 --> 0:59:00.440 in and steal my cliff bars, right, but it will 0:59:01.120 --> 0:59:03.560 And that gets hard to fathom how good their smell. 0:59:03.400 --> 0:59:07.400 Is because they love a delicious snack. Like they're berry boys. 0:59:07.400 --> 0:59:09.360 They're berry boys. They're going to come get your little tree. 0:59:09.600 --> 0:59:12.959 Yeah, they love they love a high carbohydrate like energy snack. 0:59:13.000 --> 0:59:15.320 They're endurance athletes. They want to eat your cliff bar, 0:59:16.160 --> 0:59:17.240 if your keito, you're fine. 0:59:17.480 --> 0:59:18.440 But they would like candy. 0:59:18.800 --> 0:59:20.840 But they love candy. Yeah, Like I know it would. 0:59:20.640 --> 0:59:22.200 Be unethical to give a bear. 0:59:24.720 --> 0:59:28.040 Wrong, So we want to keep a clean camp or 0:59:28.040 --> 0:59:30.000 in bad country. Right, that means stuff with odors. It's 0:59:30.040 --> 0:59:32.320 not just our food, but also like the maybe the 0:59:32.360 --> 0:59:35.560 clothes we cooked in. We have a scented toothpaste stuff 0:59:35.560 --> 0:59:35.919 like that. 0:59:36.240 --> 0:59:36.640 Wow. 0:59:36.800 --> 0:59:38.760 Yeah, like if I had, if I was in the 0:59:38.760 --> 0:59:41.760 habit of using a shampoo smelled like I think they 0:59:41.960 --> 0:59:43.840 spoke to doctor Smith about this, like he said, if 0:59:43.840 --> 0:59:46.439 I used apricot shampoo, probably wouldn't bring. 0:59:46.360 --> 0:59:46.640 It with me. 0:59:46.720 --> 0:59:48.800 Wow, because they just want to come check out that 0:59:48.800 --> 0:59:49.440 sweet tree. 0:59:49.720 --> 0:59:49.959 Yeah. 0:59:50.080 --> 0:59:52.720 Like it's kind of you think that they eat berries, right, 0:59:52.760 --> 0:59:54.760 you make yourself smell like a fruit, Like it's kind 0:59:54.760 --> 0:59:56.880 of on you, Like I get Yeah, it makes sense. 0:59:56.920 --> 0:59:58.920 Like Winnie the Pooh, he's just like following his nose 0:59:59.240 --> 1:00:00.000 you find a sweet tree. 1:00:00.280 --> 1:00:00.520 Yeah. 1:00:01.040 --> 1:00:03.040 I don't want to blame anyone for not knowing things. 1:00:03.680 --> 1:00:06.160 None of us are born knowing anything. And it's not 1:00:06.240 --> 1:00:09.240 like they issue PSAs about bears every day. 1:00:09.480 --> 1:00:11.120 I bet there's a pamphlet at the trailhead. 1:00:11.200 --> 1:00:11.840 Yeah, there's definitely. 1:00:11.880 --> 1:00:13.360 Well, when you go to Yosemite, you have to sign 1:00:13.400 --> 1:00:15.280 him with a ranger for a wilderness permit and then 1:00:15.280 --> 1:00:18.400 they'll give you the once over. But there are other 1:00:18.440 --> 1:00:19.320 things we would not do. 1:00:19.480 --> 1:00:19.680 Right. 1:00:20.160 --> 1:00:25.000 I would not sleep alone in a tent in bear country, said, 1:00:25.040 --> 1:00:27.400 and there are two of us, had probably two tents, right, Like, 1:00:27.600 --> 1:00:29.680 just gives one of us a chance to deploy the 1:00:29.680 --> 1:00:31.680 bear spray and the bear does come in. We can 1:00:31.680 --> 1:00:34.800 get bear fences, we can try very hard not to 1:00:34.880 --> 1:00:40.600 surprise bears. Right. So I was trail running in Alaska 1:00:40.720 --> 1:00:43.760 last year in some pretty thick brush, Right, I used 1:00:43.760 --> 1:00:46.560 a little bear bell. It's dorky, but like. 1:00:46.520 --> 1:00:47.600 Oh, it sounds cute as hell. 1:00:48.080 --> 1:00:48.840 I want to look at that. 1:00:49.520 --> 1:00:52.640 Well, there's an unfortunate video that you'll probably see when 1:00:52.680 --> 1:00:54.680 you google bear bell of a hiker who thought the 1:00:54.680 --> 1:00:57.600 bell bell with a repellent, and so the black bear 1:00:57.840 --> 1:01:00.600 is charging him and he's waving, just. 1:01:00.600 --> 1:01:01.760 Ring the bell at it all. 1:01:01.920 --> 1:01:04.160 Yeah, yeah, yeah, So it sounds like people. 1:01:04.000 --> 1:01:08.080 Are purchasing these solutions but not understanding the functions of them. 1:01:08.400 --> 1:01:11.840 Yeah, And like, I don't want to blame people for that, 1:01:11.880 --> 1:01:14.080 because part of the way we get to a place 1:01:14.080 --> 1:01:15.960 where we could destroy so much of our megafauna, is 1:01:15.960 --> 1:01:18.160 it so a few people care about or understand it, Right, 1:01:18.400 --> 1:01:21.280 that's an education issue that we can't solve quickly or 1:01:21.320 --> 1:01:25.360 like on a podcast. I think that it would behoove 1:01:25.400 --> 1:01:29.040 anyone who's going camping in especially like Griz country, right, 1:01:29.080 --> 1:01:33.200 so in Alaska, Wyoming, not all of Wyoming, Montana, Idaho. 1:01:33.280 --> 1:01:35.360 And like I've camped in those places. I've come to 1:01:35.400 --> 1:01:37.840 all of those places to learn about these things, right, 1:01:37.880 --> 1:01:41.200 because it's not just a negative instant for you, Like, 1:01:41.240 --> 1:01:43.760 it's also a negative incident for the bear. Even if 1:01:43.800 --> 1:01:45.920 you have to bear spray a bear, right, that fucking 1:01:45.960 --> 1:01:46.680 sucks for the bear. 1:01:46.840 --> 1:01:48.560 I mean I've been I've been pepper sprayed, and the 1:01:48.560 --> 1:01:51.240 bear can't even go like wash his hair with dawn. 1:01:51.200 --> 1:01:53.480 Right, Yeah, he can't stand in the shower like looking 1:01:53.520 --> 1:01:57.040 down like I know this this. I guess the positive 1:01:57.080 --> 1:01:59.440 outcome of that is that the bear will be like 1:01:59.440 --> 1:02:02.240 likely to not want to come around people so much, right, 1:02:02.280 --> 1:02:04.640 because they'll associate this negative attraction with the best bray. 1:02:04.760 --> 1:02:07.280 Right, So this seems like it's that it does work. 1:02:07.320 --> 1:02:09.880 And then also if we're all doing it, you'll you 1:02:09.920 --> 1:02:11.320 want to do it as much. Yeah, because the bears 1:02:11.320 --> 1:02:12.120 will leave us alone. 1:02:12.200 --> 1:02:15.280 Yeah, we have the solution for being in bear country, right, Like, 1:02:15.560 --> 1:02:17.080 it's carry our bear repellent. 1:02:17.160 --> 1:02:18.480 Unless the bears are like me. 1:02:18.600 --> 1:02:20.200 You know, I've been parpigedprayed by all kinds of cops 1:02:20.200 --> 1:02:22.040 and I'm still going to go look and see whether I'm. 1:02:22.680 --> 1:02:24.920 Just keep on keep on tanking. Yeah, I'm not a 1:02:25.000 --> 1:02:28.920 very stupid man. It's like the uh, the Yosemite. I 1:02:28.920 --> 1:02:30.360 guess it just keeps spraying me. 1:02:31.240 --> 1:02:31.760 These people. 1:02:31.800 --> 1:02:34.800 Why this. There were some instance where I guess brown 1:02:34.840 --> 1:02:37.720 bears got sprayed to charge the person, but like as 1:02:37.800 --> 1:02:40.320 they were charging, the person sprayed them and they came 1:02:40.360 --> 1:02:43.120 through the spray. But then there's a spray got more condensed, 1:02:43.160 --> 1:02:44.960 like I know they're not the person over and kept 1:02:45.000 --> 1:02:50.760 on charging. Okay, I don't want, Yeah, which is obviously 1:02:50.800 --> 1:02:53.200 not a great outcome, but it's a better outcome than 1:02:53.240 --> 1:02:54.840 you're getting warreed by the bear, right. 1:02:54.800 --> 1:02:55.960 Better than it eat my bear. 1:02:56.240 --> 1:02:58.640 But like, I really want to push back on this 1:02:58.720 --> 1:03:00.560 narrative that we should be all carrying firearms. 1:03:00.640 --> 1:03:03.120 First of all, most people, most people don't need a gun. 1:03:03.720 --> 1:03:06.840 Yeah, I mean, like, there are reasons to warn guns ion, 1:03:06.920 --> 1:03:11.440 lots of them, but like, defending yourself from bears probably 1:03:11.480 --> 1:03:15.200 isn't one unless you're already very proficient with firearms, and 1:03:15.280 --> 1:03:15.880 even then. 1:03:16.320 --> 1:03:18.120 I don't want to kill a bear. 1:03:18.520 --> 1:03:21.200 Like, but I just to think if you're telling every 1:03:21.480 --> 1:03:24.520 casual hiker who goes to where bears might be that 1:03:24.560 --> 1:03:26.400 they need to own a gun, a lot of those 1:03:26.400 --> 1:03:28.720 people would not have otherwise owned a gun. Yeah, are 1:03:28.760 --> 1:03:30.800 not good at handling a gun. In a situation where 1:03:30.800 --> 1:03:32.320 they need to use the gun against the bear, it's 1:03:32.320 --> 1:03:34.800 going to go badly. But also, now there's a gun 1:03:34.800 --> 1:03:36.880 in their home that they would not otherwise have had 1:03:36.880 --> 1:03:40.160 in their home, and the odds of a firearm accident 1:03:40.240 --> 1:03:42.000 in the home are now higher. 1:03:41.760 --> 1:03:43.840 Yeah, well yeah, infinitely high than it didn't have one. 1:03:43.800 --> 1:03:46.120 Right, So it's not going to work out for you. 1:03:46.200 --> 1:03:48.320 In this limited instance that you think you need it for. 1:03:49.000 --> 1:03:51.080 Yeah, and then you've introduced to dangerous. 1:03:51.120 --> 1:03:52.240 Now you have a gun you didn't need. 1:03:52.400 --> 1:03:55.160 Yeah, Like, it is impossible. May if you are getting 1:03:55.320 --> 1:03:57.400 If I am getting more by a grizzly bear and 1:03:57.440 --> 1:04:00.320 you bearst pray that bear, I will have I see 1:04:00.360 --> 1:04:03.520 eyes and hopefully survive. If you shoot that bear, it 1:04:03.600 --> 1:04:05.680 is very possible, and it has happened that you will 1:04:05.680 --> 1:04:06.480 also shoot me. 1:04:06.680 --> 1:04:11.000 Because the average person not a good shot under controlled circumstances. 1:04:11.040 --> 1:04:12.760 Bear attack not a controlled circumstance. 1:04:12.960 --> 1:04:17.240 Yeah, like everyone like this is especially a thing with men, right, 1:04:17.280 --> 1:04:20.880 they will tend to overestimate their ability with firearms dramatically. 1:04:20.960 --> 1:04:23.920 In my experience, this is not a fuck around and 1:04:23.960 --> 1:04:26.000 find out situation. You don't want to find out that 1:04:26.080 --> 1:04:27.880 you're not very good at shooting as a grisly bear 1:04:27.960 --> 1:04:28.560 is charging you. 1:04:28.760 --> 1:04:31.200 And even if you are very good at shooting at 1:04:31.240 --> 1:04:33.160 the range, you're not in this situation. 1:04:33.440 --> 1:04:33.720 You're not. 1:04:33.920 --> 1:04:36.040 You have to deploy the firearm right now, and we 1:04:36.080 --> 1:04:36.320 have to. 1:04:36.400 --> 1:04:39.000 Like, your hands are shaking, there's piss running down your life. 1:04:39.120 --> 1:04:42.640 We're scared. Yeah, you have to incapacitate the bear, like 1:04:43.040 --> 1:04:46.920 I've been in up close situations with big animals. It's scary, 1:04:47.320 --> 1:04:51.000 like thinking I'm going to die now. It has a 1:04:51.000 --> 1:04:54.080 profound effect on the human body, and it's not one 1:04:54.080 --> 1:04:56.400 that does and it does it doesn't actually enhance your 1:04:56.440 --> 1:04:59.640 john Wick characteristics. Yeah, so I would highly recommend it. 1:04:59.640 --> 1:05:02.680 If you're going to bear country, you get some bear spray, 1:05:03.160 --> 1:05:06.280 don't fly, but you can't fly with bare spray, So 1:05:06.280 --> 1:05:07.600 you're gonna have to buy it when you get buy 1:05:07.600 --> 1:05:09.520 it when you get there. This is not like big 1:05:09.560 --> 1:05:12.360 bear spray. This is also an accusation that like big 1:05:12.400 --> 1:05:16.040 bear spray sort of funded these studies or that this 1:05:16.200 --> 1:05:18.800 is silly, right, the death spray industry is not that 1:05:18.840 --> 1:05:19.520 big guys. 1:05:19.760 --> 1:05:20.440 It works. 1:05:20.680 --> 1:05:23.760 It is statistically more effective than using firearms. 1:05:23.840 --> 1:05:24.160 It works. 1:05:24.200 --> 1:05:25.600 What does it cost like forty bucks? 1:05:25.760 --> 1:05:26.680 Yeah, not even that. 1:05:26.760 --> 1:05:28.520 And how much does a gun cost? A lot more 1:05:28.560 --> 1:05:29.480 than that, Yeah. 1:05:29.280 --> 1:05:30.520 A lot more than that, especially if you're going to 1:05:30.560 --> 1:05:32.120 actually practice with it. Right, if you're going to get 1:05:32.120 --> 1:05:33.880 bear spray, I would sugest you get a You can 1:05:33.880 --> 1:05:37.440 get a dummy. It's just got water in it and 1:05:37.520 --> 1:05:39.840 you can practice. Right. There are a couple of safeties 1:05:39.880 --> 1:05:42.720 on a bear spray. One I do have one here. 1:05:43.080 --> 1:05:44.560 With like within arms reach in your arms. 1:05:44.600 --> 1:05:45.880 You want to go one over here? Yeah, I got 1:05:45.880 --> 1:05:50.920 my RACKUS best bray, but like it's a safety on 1:05:50.960 --> 1:05:52.800 it and there's actually a zip tie when you get 1:05:52.800 --> 1:05:54.400 it to stop the safety coming off, just to stop 1:05:54.400 --> 1:05:56.200 it like blog in your back going off in the 1:05:56.240 --> 1:05:58.800 shipping container, yeah, or in the in the walmart or whatever. 1:05:59.160 --> 1:06:01.120 So you've got to whatever of that, right, And then 1:06:01.760 --> 1:06:05.720 they they sell packs which has the water one and 1:06:05.840 --> 1:06:08.960 the spicy one, and you're going to practice deploying the 1:06:08.960 --> 1:06:12.600 water one, right, and like that's smart. Yeah, when you're 1:06:12.920 --> 1:06:15.640 carrying your bear spray, if it's in the bottom of 1:06:15.640 --> 1:06:18.840 your backpack, oh, the bear doesn't give you that much 1:06:18.880 --> 1:06:22.120 advanced notice. Yeah. So the bear spray is like when 1:06:22.160 --> 1:06:24.880 I was when I'm running in places where there were 1:06:24.880 --> 1:06:28.000 grizzly bears, I wear a little running vest. Put it 1:06:28.000 --> 1:06:30.240 in the front here. If I have binoculars and I 1:06:30.240 --> 1:06:31.720 have a little binocular pack, I put it on the 1:06:31.760 --> 1:06:34.520 side there. I've done it on my belt before. 1:06:35.360 --> 1:06:39.600 Googled bear spray and the pictures, the pictures that are 1:06:39.680 --> 1:06:42.200 used to advertise the spray. 1:06:41.640 --> 1:06:45.880 I gotta see this. What's yeah, how do I send 1:06:45.920 --> 1:06:49.000 you sen you can just put it in the chat. 1:06:49.920 --> 1:06:50.880 This is not a real picture. 1:06:50.920 --> 1:06:52.400 Is this a real picture of a man spraying of bear? 1:06:52.440 --> 1:06:54.920 Because the bear is sort of enveloped in this cloud 1:06:54.920 --> 1:06:57.280 of spray, So it just looks like one of those 1:06:57.480 --> 1:07:00.840 soft effect paintings of the bears still wet in like 1:07:00.840 --> 1:07:01.480 a cloud. 1:07:01.800 --> 1:07:03.960 It looks like it looks like like a I'm a 1:07:03.960 --> 1:07:06.320 big fan of T shirts of wolves howling at the moon. 1:07:09.160 --> 1:07:11.320 It's a bear, old man's brain. 1:07:11.680 --> 1:07:14.680 I don't know why if you're staging it. This is 1:07:14.720 --> 1:07:15.640 bizarre because. 1:07:15.400 --> 1:07:17.200 That's not a real picture of something of that happened. 1:07:17.280 --> 1:07:17.800 I don't know. 1:07:18.120 --> 1:07:20.040 I don't think so, because there's no bare body and 1:07:20.080 --> 1:07:22.360 you can see this. You can see the bush right 1:07:22.440 --> 1:07:24.640 like it's just its head. They haven't bothered. 1:07:24.760 --> 1:07:25.560 It's very close. 1:07:25.680 --> 1:07:28.080 Yeah, so yeah, and the bear doesn't look too upset. 1:07:28.440 --> 1:07:31.840 It's kind of Yeah. That is a fascinating case. If 1:07:31.840 --> 1:07:34.400 we scroll down, there are there are better images of 1:07:34.440 --> 1:07:36.080 people using bear spray, which. 1:07:35.920 --> 1:07:38.560 Is incredible, incredible product photos that. 1:07:38.760 --> 1:07:43.280 Yeah, that is really quite remarkable. Suggest everybody who is 1:07:43.320 --> 1:07:47.560 going into bear country buy bear spray and practice using 1:07:47.600 --> 1:07:51.480 it like it's better for you. It's better for bears. 1:07:52.040 --> 1:07:54.720 It's cheaper than a gun. You can if you want, 1:07:54.720 --> 1:07:58.000 by a bear fence, the electric fence that goes around 1:07:58.120 --> 1:08:00.200 your camp if camping in the back country, I think 1:08:00.240 --> 1:08:01.960 that's a good idea. If you're in an area with 1:08:02.000 --> 1:08:05.160 lots of bears, they way very little. Now I'm by 1:08:05.200 --> 1:08:08.160 myself when actually after talking to doctor Smith, well I 1:08:08.160 --> 1:08:10.040 won't because I haven't got enough money, but i'd like 1:08:10.080 --> 1:08:13.200 to maybe I'll hear from the bear fence people. You 1:08:13.320 --> 1:08:16.120 can follow all the best practices, right, and you're not 1:08:16.120 --> 1:08:18.200 just going to learn them from a podcast. You're going 1:08:18.240 --> 1:08:20.680 to look up the parks system. You're going to look 1:08:20.680 --> 1:08:21.799 at doctor Smith's research. 1:08:22.360 --> 1:08:25.479 Ask a park ranger. He'll tell you that's his job. 1:08:25.880 --> 1:08:28.160 Yeah, some of their jobs depends what depends what kind 1:08:28.160 --> 1:08:30.800 of rangers they are. Some of them are cops. The 1:08:30.920 --> 1:08:35.680 overwhelming bulk of evidence suggests that the way to go 1:08:35.720 --> 1:08:44.920 with bears is bear spray until a bear kills an 1:08:44.920 --> 1:08:48.080 oil rig. We will have we will continue to have 1:08:48.120 --> 1:08:51.800 bears on our landscape, but it's something that we should like, 1:08:51.960 --> 1:08:55.479 genuinely care about, really, like the trophic cascade is not 1:08:55.520 --> 1:08:58.080 as much of a of a thing as it was 1:08:58.120 --> 1:09:00.599 once made out to be that. I'm sure you've seen 1:09:00.600 --> 1:09:02.200 that thing about how wolf change rivers. 1:09:02.520 --> 1:09:05.120 No, you have to tell me about wolves too. 1:09:05.920 --> 1:09:08.760 A whole other episode. Yeah, well, fucking wolf management is 1:09:08.760 --> 1:09:12.120 a whole other thing. The bears have entered the discourse 1:09:12.160 --> 1:09:16.200 this week because a bear killed someone. We don't talk 1:09:16.240 --> 1:09:18.120 about it when someone kills a bear, right the go 1:09:18.200 --> 1:09:20.559 ask it. They're coming bears from aircraft right now. And 1:09:20.600 --> 1:09:22.400 I'm not saying that, like a human life is equal 1:09:22.439 --> 1:09:24.240 to a bear life, but I'm saying that. 1:09:24.280 --> 1:09:27.360 Hunting from an aircraft is such bitch behavior. 1:09:28.240 --> 1:09:29.680 I know, if you want to take a bear, do 1:09:30.080 --> 1:09:32.560 it with a knife like a like a hero or 1:09:32.560 --> 1:09:33.160 a bow. 1:09:33.439 --> 1:09:35.360 But or you know, do it Lewis and Clark style, 1:09:35.439 --> 1:09:36.040 use a musket. 1:09:36.120 --> 1:09:36.559 That's fine. 1:09:36.600 --> 1:09:38.920 Yeah, yeah, right, eight of your friends and a musket 1:09:39.000 --> 1:09:40.880 at the edge of the river and you don't have 1:09:40.920 --> 1:09:43.080 best brace. You're only optionists to jump into the room 1:09:43.439 --> 1:09:46.880 twenty feet clip with a bear that you could have 1:09:46.960 --> 1:09:50.439 left alone. So yeah, I want to. I guess like 1:09:50.920 --> 1:09:53.759 end by saying that, like the outdoors isn't entirely safe, 1:09:54.160 --> 1:09:56.880 and that's part of what makes it beautiful. There have 1:09:56.960 --> 1:09:59.280 been times when I have been in the wilderness where 1:09:59.280 --> 1:10:03.120 I've thought going to die, and I keep going back 1:10:03.160 --> 1:10:05.479 to the wilderness because like it's also one of the 1:10:05.520 --> 1:10:07.439 things that makes me feel so grateful to be alive. 1:10:08.280 --> 1:10:12.120 And it's okay if it isn't entirely safe. We know 1:10:12.280 --> 1:10:14.360 that when we enter the wilderness, and we do our 1:10:14.400 --> 1:10:19.160 best to mitigate that risk, right, We plan, we take 1:10:19.160 --> 1:10:21.280 safety precautions, we bring our first aid kit in our 1:10:21.280 --> 1:10:22.800 best brain, and we tell someone where we're going and 1:10:22.800 --> 1:10:24.360 when we're coming back, and we do all this stuff, 1:10:24.400 --> 1:10:27.840 but we understand that there is some inherent risk and 1:10:27.920 --> 1:10:30.840 that's all right. Like if we wanted to see wildlife 1:10:30.840 --> 1:10:33.000 and have no inherent risk and have it be comfortable, 1:10:33.040 --> 1:10:36.200 we would just go to the zoo, right, And the 1:10:36.320 --> 1:10:39.639 zoo sucks compared to the outdoors, right, Like I don't 1:10:39.680 --> 1:10:42.280 want to see a bear in a cage. It's undignified 1:10:42.280 --> 1:10:42.760 for the bear. 1:10:43.160 --> 1:10:44.439 It's so sad for them in there. 1:10:44.680 --> 1:10:47.280 Yeah, Like it's the meaning to me to see something 1:10:47.840 --> 1:10:51.800 demean for my entertainment in that fashion. Like we can't 1:10:51.840 --> 1:10:54.200 comprehend animals outside of the habitat. I don't think like 1:10:55.160 --> 1:10:58.519 seeing a grisbee bear in Alaska of trying to eat 1:10:58.560 --> 1:11:02.720 salmon or being a black bear in California doing its 1:11:02.720 --> 1:11:05.600 thing hamingson berries. Like that's cool, and I want you 1:11:05.640 --> 1:11:07.360 all to have that, and I want your children and 1:11:07.400 --> 1:11:10.599 grandchildren to have that, and so, like, I think we 1:11:10.640 --> 1:11:15.280 should be very skeptical about people making safety based arguments 1:11:15.960 --> 1:11:21.360 for destroying our our megafauna here like that. You'll hear 1:11:21.360 --> 1:11:23.400 it with wolves, right, You're hearing people doing it with cougars, 1:11:23.400 --> 1:11:25.000 which is absolutely ridiculous. 1:11:25.080 --> 1:11:26.920 Like most of these animals will not bother you if 1:11:26.920 --> 1:11:27.960 you leave them alone. 1:11:28.320 --> 1:11:31.880 Yeah, and like if very very ocasionally people have been 1:11:31.960 --> 1:11:34.439 killed by cougars who are not bothering the cougar, right, like. 1:11:34.560 --> 1:11:38.479 Very occasionally, you know, a freak accident, Yeah, doesn't justify 1:11:38.560 --> 1:11:40.000 destruction of an ecosystem. 1:11:40.439 --> 1:11:43.160 People get killed by lightning, but we're not just killing clouds. 1:11:43.400 --> 1:11:45.680 People get killed by cars. We don't get bombing the 1:11:45.720 --> 1:11:49.800 Ford factory. I understand the desire to be safe, but like, 1:11:49.840 --> 1:11:51.160 we will take away a lot of things that are 1:11:51.200 --> 1:11:52.960 really beautiful if we just want to be safe. 1:11:53.040 --> 1:11:55.040 But again, we're controlling the wrong variables. 1:11:55.040 --> 1:11:58.479 If you're worried about people dying in unfair and you know, 1:11:58.920 --> 1:11:59.920 terrible accidents. 1:12:00.520 --> 1:12:01.639 There are things we could talk about. 1:12:01.760 --> 1:12:03.560 Yeah, there are policy decisions that could be made that 1:12:03.600 --> 1:12:05.519 would save thousands and thousands of lives. 1:12:05.720 --> 1:12:07.600 Yeah, if you want people to be safe and be 1:12:07.680 --> 1:12:09.840 concerned about free healthcare. 1:12:10.200 --> 1:12:12.839 Bears have killed sixty six people. 1:12:13.160 --> 1:12:15.559 I bet that many people died today from not being 1:12:15.560 --> 1:12:16.639 able to get their insulin. 1:12:16.960 --> 1:12:19.880 Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, there's a perfect example. Right, Like, 1:12:20.240 --> 1:12:23.160 if you want to keep people safe, then think about 1:12:23.200 --> 1:12:25.160 things that will keep them safe. And I think we can. 1:12:25.880 --> 1:12:28.840 We can very easily keep people bears safe. But the 1:12:28.880 --> 1:12:31.120 threat to the bears is us. That's it. The only 1:12:31.200 --> 1:12:34.400 other thing that kills bears really is other bears, and 1:12:34.479 --> 1:12:38.479 so it's on us therefore to advocate, right, Like the 1:12:38.479 --> 1:12:41.000 bears can't advocate for themselves. Luckily they had people who 1:12:41.080 --> 1:12:44.240 brought that court case in twenty nineteen. But like, if 1:12:44.640 --> 1:12:47.840 we want to continue to enjoy the outdoors in the 1:12:47.880 --> 1:12:50.400 way that they are, we need to stop randomly removing shit. 1:12:51.640 --> 1:12:54.839 And bears are one of those things, especially brown bears, 1:12:54.880 --> 1:12:57.439 that it's very easy to whip up fear about that. 1:12:58.040 --> 1:13:00.479 I think we should just leave them alone. I think 1:13:00.479 --> 1:13:02.960 we should be weary also of sort of anthropomorphizing them. 1:13:02.960 --> 1:13:05.200 Like I see this sometimes with people and animals, like 1:13:05.280 --> 1:13:08.400 they don't need this for entertainment. They don't see the 1:13:08.439 --> 1:13:10.360 world in the way we do. And that's okay that 1:13:10.360 --> 1:13:14.439 they're animals. They have their own logic. We coexist with them. 1:13:14.720 --> 1:13:17.559 But like not that. It's not like a Disney animal. 1:13:17.800 --> 1:13:20.240 It's an animal which goes about the world using its 1:13:20.240 --> 1:13:22.800 own logic, using its own understanding, and trying to pursue 1:13:22.840 --> 1:13:24.240 its own ends for its own means. 1:13:24.320 --> 1:13:24.479 Right. 1:13:24.479 --> 1:13:27.720 But nonetheless, it is a majestic thing to see on 1:13:27.760 --> 1:13:31.040 the landscape and something that we should take care that. 1:13:31.280 --> 1:13:35.120 You know, we don't let corporate interest and people who 1:13:35.320 --> 1:13:36.799 find it entertaining distory. 1:13:37.360 --> 1:13:38.439 I would love to see a bear. 1:13:38.720 --> 1:13:40.679 Okay, we'll do that. We'll add that to our list. Okay, 1:13:41.640 --> 1:13:43.280 tep me to see a bear. Yeah, I am going 1:13:43.320 --> 1:13:45.320 to take Molly camping. We will. Maybe we'll go to 1:13:45.760 --> 1:13:49.040 We'll go to we go Yellowstone area, like I've never 1:13:49.040 --> 1:13:51.080 been to Yell, you know, have you not been to Yellowstone? 1:13:51.160 --> 1:13:52.080 I've never been out worse. 1:13:52.800 --> 1:13:55.120 Wow, Okay, I've got some friends who got a cabin 1:13:55.200 --> 1:13:58.280 outside the park. Maybe we could have a little cabin trip. 1:13:58.680 --> 1:14:00.839 Sophie's and mid Yellowstone. 1:14:01.800 --> 1:14:03.599 We can go in there and like, look at the guys, 1:14:04.320 --> 1:14:08.639 enjoy the Yellowstone ecosystem. No disrespect to my Yellowstone friends, 1:14:08.680 --> 1:14:11.639 but that's a lot of tourists. Like I ain't going 1:14:11.640 --> 1:14:13.240 outside to be around that many people. 1:14:13.640 --> 1:14:17.880 Yeah, like there's there's Yellowstone style nature outside the bounds 1:14:17.880 --> 1:14:18.360 of the park. 1:14:18.640 --> 1:14:19.200 You go there. 1:14:19.360 --> 1:14:20.920 Yeah, I mean even if you just go, if you're 1:14:20.960 --> 1:14:22.720 getting away from you can get it. Just get away 1:14:22.760 --> 1:14:25.080 from Old Faithful and that that park and you can 1:14:25.080 --> 1:14:27.320 get away from people. Just fine. But yeah, we can go. 1:14:27.400 --> 1:14:29.160 We could go to Yellowstone, see it there. Maybe see 1:14:29.160 --> 1:14:30.679 an elk. Pretty cool, Elk. 1:14:30.560 --> 1:14:32.360 Make a pretty co I bet that's big as hell. 1:14:32.439 --> 1:14:35.040 Yeah, elk's the biggest ship. Like like a cow with horns. 1:14:35.400 --> 1:14:39.120 Well not the cows, cats have horns. Elk antlers a mistake. 1:14:40.000 --> 1:14:43.479 But yeah, we could go to or like that, like 1:14:43.600 --> 1:14:45.640 the Greater Yeat like outside of the park, like that 1:14:45.920 --> 1:14:48.840 Wayoming area just outside of Yellowstone. It's really beautiful. Be 1:14:48.880 --> 1:14:51.040 a fun place to go camping. Maybe see a bear, 1:14:51.400 --> 1:14:53.680 have a clean camp. Maybe we can find out a 1:14:53.680 --> 1:14:55.759 way to find a way to expense that bear fence. 1:14:55.960 --> 1:14:59.639 That's what I'm saying. Podcasts from out there it becomes business. 1:14:59.800 --> 1:14:59.960 Yeah. 1:15:00.120 --> 1:15:03.120 Yeah, we will podcast from bear country proving that we 1:15:03.160 --> 1:15:04.559 can happily co exist with bears. 1:15:04.720 --> 1:15:06.000 Thank you to all the ferret people. 1:15:06.240 --> 1:15:09.000 By the way, I can't believe how many contacted you. 1:15:09.200 --> 1:15:12.920 Yeah, massive outreach of the ferret people. So if you 1:15:13.000 --> 1:15:14.760 are someone who can help me, get on one of 1:15:14.800 --> 1:15:18.400 the ferret counting surveys. I will count ferrets with you. 1:15:19.040 --> 1:15:21.639 We will make a ferret podcast, and we will change 1:15:21.680 --> 1:15:24.320 America's perception of the blackfooted ferret. On your behalf. 1:15:24.360 --> 1:15:25.120 It's already working. 1:15:25.240 --> 1:15:25.720 You got me. 1:15:26.120 --> 1:15:26.800 I love them now. 1:15:27.479 --> 1:15:30.559 Yeah. Muley's Team Ferret. Yeah. You can't see this because 1:15:30.560 --> 1:15:32.839 it's a podcast, but she has a massive tattoo. 1:15:34.280 --> 1:15:37.080 It's one of the biggest around the neck. 1:15:37.120 --> 1:15:39.280 Yeah, around the neck. Yeah, and there's a further one 1:15:39.280 --> 1:15:41.960 in the lip, but it says team Ferret. 1:15:42.680 --> 1:15:43.280 Yeah. 1:15:43.360 --> 1:15:46.479 Yeah. So yeah, Money's become a ferret advocate. I hope 1:15:46.479 --> 1:15:49.800 you have all become ferret and black bear advocates. Send 1:15:49.880 --> 1:15:51.680 me pictures of your bears. Money, do you know what 1:15:51.720 --> 1:15:53.080 fat bear week is? Before we go? 1:15:53.360 --> 1:15:56.000 That is my favorite thing about bears is fat. 1:15:55.800 --> 1:16:00.000 Bear Okay, sick good yeah, bears getting plump in the 1:16:00.040 --> 1:16:01.320 the autumn before they hibernate. 1:16:01.439 --> 1:16:03.639 Is I mean, how could you hate them? How could 1:16:03.680 --> 1:16:06.759 you hate them? They're just roly poly little guys hunting 1:16:06.760 --> 1:16:07.599 for a little sweet treat. 1:16:07.840 --> 1:16:10.960 Yeah, their bulking cycle is incredible to me, Like the 1:16:12.240 --> 1:16:16.240 way a bear just adds thickness in a relatively short 1:16:16.240 --> 1:16:18.680 period of time. It's remarking powerful. Yeah, it's powerful. That 1:16:18.760 --> 1:16:21.440 lives the power of salmon. Maybe we didn't have trawlers, 1:16:22.240 --> 1:16:24.599 we'd all eat more fish. But yeah, check out Fat 1:16:24.640 --> 1:16:26.759 Bear Week if you haven't, if you're not from the US, 1:16:27.120 --> 1:16:30.719 I hope this has been fun. Fund a little diversion 1:16:30.920 --> 1:16:32.800 into animals that live here. They used to live all 1:16:32.800 --> 1:16:37.639 the way down into Mexico actually, but now sadly Mexican bears. Yeah, 1:16:37.640 --> 1:16:39.080 well there are still Mexican black bears. 1:16:39.200 --> 1:16:42.120 They have bears too, Yeah, yeah, I got to look 1:16:42.200 --> 1:16:43.080 up where bears live. 1:16:43.520 --> 1:16:46.280 Yeah, they lived. We could do a whole other one 1:16:46.280 --> 1:16:49.160 on the jaguar was there being fucked by the border 1:16:49.200 --> 1:16:51.760 wall right now pretty badly. But there'll be a fun 1:16:51.800 --> 1:16:57.080 episode up in over an, Arizona that Yeah, there's pretty cool. 1:16:57.120 --> 1:17:13.600 Animals are friends, don't kill them. 1:17:13.680 --> 1:17:16.000 Welcome to It could happened here a podcast about what 1:17:16.080 --> 1:17:18.719 workers can do when they try. I am your host, 1:17:18.800 --> 1:17:23.320 Mia Long, and with me today to talk about a 1:17:23.360 --> 1:17:26.000 company known, I guess in Portland for being a place 1:17:26.000 --> 1:17:28.479 for you shop and known most other places for being 1:17:28.560 --> 1:17:33.519 the people who make pens is Morgan and Renee from 1:17:33.520 --> 1:17:36.599 Bujie Workers United and Morgan Renee welcome to the show. 1:17:36.920 --> 1:17:38.400 Thank you, Hi, Thank you Mia. 1:17:39.320 --> 1:17:39.639 Yeah. 1:17:39.680 --> 1:17:42.240 So, and obviously I guess, as you may have gotten 1:17:42.280 --> 1:17:45.080 from the word union and the title probably continuing the 1:17:45.080 --> 1:17:47.240 word union, I don't know, we haven't written it yet, 1:17:47.960 --> 1:17:51.840 is that. Yeah, one of the Muji stories in Portland 1:17:52.320 --> 1:17:54.960 is unionizing. Can you talk a little bit about like 1:17:55.160 --> 1:17:58.479 what Muji is for people who are unaware of this slash, 1:17:58.520 --> 1:18:02.360 don't follow pens and or or haven't been to the store. 1:18:02.960 --> 1:18:07.080 Yeah, so Muji is probably I would describe it as 1:18:07.160 --> 1:18:11.680 a worldwide Japanese minimalist lifestyle department store. And that's a 1:18:11.680 --> 1:18:14.640 lot of words to say. It's a department store that 1:18:14.800 --> 1:18:19.280 is for essentially basics. Muji is short for a full 1:18:19.560 --> 1:18:23.800 name that essentially translates to no brand, and that's the 1:18:23.840 --> 1:18:26.400 idea that they're trying to push for and they're trying 1:18:26.400 --> 1:18:29.080 to show to people that it's like an eco friendly 1:18:29.120 --> 1:18:33.519 company and they try and push like high quality products. 1:18:34.200 --> 1:18:37.519 And at our location in Portland, it's the only one 1:18:37.520 --> 1:18:41.320 on the American West Coast, and we have a relatively 1:18:41.320 --> 1:18:44.840 small shop. There's only thirty two people in our bargaining unit. 1:18:44.960 --> 1:18:47.920 And this is a wall to wall bargaining unit, which 1:18:48.040 --> 1:18:52.280 essentially means that everyone below the lowest management level at 1:18:52.280 --> 1:18:55.280 this location is involved with the union. 1:18:55.880 --> 1:18:59.360 Yeah, which is a really cool and B So we're 1:18:59.360 --> 1:19:00.840 talking about how this is the only one in the 1:19:00.880 --> 1:19:04.519 West coast. This is mostly a Japanese company that operates 1:19:04.560 --> 1:19:06.680 a little bit in the US and does things here, 1:19:06.760 --> 1:19:09.040 right my understanding, So. 1:19:10.160 --> 1:19:14.080 It is a Japanese company. It's actually primarily operates like 1:19:14.120 --> 1:19:17.120 all over the world. It was began in Japan in 1:19:17.160 --> 1:19:20.240 the eighties, I believe, if I know my company history correctly, 1:19:20.720 --> 1:19:24.799 but they pretty rapidly expanded to across Asia and Europe 1:19:25.400 --> 1:19:29.600 and then have also since expanded into Africa and the Americas. 1:19:30.040 --> 1:19:33.000 If the Americas were relatively late. I don't think that 1:19:33.080 --> 1:19:35.880 there was a store in the America's before the turn 1:19:35.920 --> 1:19:39.760 of the millennium and the portaland location itself opened in 1:19:39.800 --> 1:19:43.120 I want to say twenty eighteen, sometime like just pre COVID. 1:19:43.960 --> 1:19:48.920 Yeah, so it's relatively recent. And I guess the thing 1:19:49.000 --> 1:19:52.760 that's even more relatively recent is he all starting to 1:19:52.920 --> 1:19:56.280 organize a union. So can I ask how did that start? 1:19:56.320 --> 1:19:58.360 And what was the sort of things that started to 1:19:58.360 --> 1:19:59.519 get the ball rolling on it? 1:20:00.000 --> 1:20:02.439 So I guess the way that organizing started was back 1:20:02.520 --> 1:20:05.439 in November of twenty twenty five, maybe shortly before that. 1:20:06.160 --> 1:20:10.320 We had a round of appraisals. These are like yearly 1:20:10.439 --> 1:20:13.880 end of fiscal year appraisals that are technically supposed to 1:20:13.880 --> 1:20:15.720 be the end of the fourth quarter. Typically they get 1:20:15.760 --> 1:20:18.839 pushed back by a month or two. I just company practice, 1:20:18.840 --> 1:20:22.960 because the appraisals are tied to our raises, and each 1:20:23.080 --> 1:20:26.080 employee who's worked for a year or more at the 1:20:26.080 --> 1:20:28.640 company gets a praise, And so we're scored in a 1:20:28.680 --> 1:20:31.400 system of one to five, and if you get a 1:20:31.560 --> 1:20:34.439 three or better, I believe the system goes. You get 1:20:34.479 --> 1:20:37.040 a raise that is directly tied to the number that 1:20:37.080 --> 1:20:41.640 you got. They used decimal systems. So the thing is 1:20:41.640 --> 1:20:45.640 that this year they gave us the lowest raise in 1:20:46.240 --> 1:20:49.200 a memory of any of the workers that are currently there. 1:20:49.280 --> 1:20:53.040 Myself included for context. I'm one of the workers that 1:20:53.120 --> 1:20:55.920 has been at the store of the longest and at 1:20:56.560 --> 1:20:59.680 four no more than forty years now we have a 1:20:59.680 --> 1:21:01.800 pretty i turn around, which is how I ended up 1:21:01.840 --> 1:21:04.880 being the longest tenure of the lower the management workers. 1:21:05.439 --> 1:21:09.120 And this came in a year that was the best 1:21:09.200 --> 1:21:14.120 year in the Portland Locations history. Yeah, there's this competition 1:21:14.400 --> 1:21:18.479 that Muchie runs internally where it puts each store under 1:21:18.560 --> 1:21:21.400 like a group of stores worldwide, almost like almost like 1:21:21.439 --> 1:21:24.280 World Cup groups in a way, where you're just kind 1:21:24.280 --> 1:21:28.760 of like randomly sorted into groups. And each year one 1:21:28.800 --> 1:21:32.400 of the groups is chosen and within that group, they 1:21:32.479 --> 1:21:35.160 examined the performances of each of the stores within that 1:21:35.240 --> 1:21:37.439 group and select a winner to be the Store of 1:21:37.479 --> 1:21:40.920 the year. So in twenty twenty four we won Store 1:21:40.920 --> 1:21:43.519 of the Year, and it was kind of a shock 1:21:43.560 --> 1:21:45.919 to a bunch of us to have such low races 1:21:45.960 --> 1:21:50.639 after that. For example, my rays of sixty five cents 1:21:50.840 --> 1:21:56.719 last summer Jesus Christ was the highest by a significant margin. 1:21:57.880 --> 1:22:01.120 Yes, it went as low as around twenty five cents. 1:22:01.280 --> 1:22:02.920 Yeah, that's right, I. 1:22:02.800 --> 1:22:05.919 Have done the math. But like, is that sub inflation? 1:22:06.240 --> 1:22:08.759 Like I, yes, that is sub inflation. 1:22:09.400 --> 1:22:12.320 It tends to be. There are employees who have been 1:22:12.360 --> 1:22:15.920 working for more than two years who still get paid 1:22:16.280 --> 1:22:17.519 around minimum wage. 1:22:17.720 --> 1:22:18.439 Jesus Christ. 1:22:19.040 --> 1:22:23.840 In addition to that, the staff members who are keyholders 1:22:23.840 --> 1:22:27.040 and full timers and above get bonuses, and the bonuses 1:22:27.040 --> 1:22:30.360 are directly tied to the amount of money that the 1:22:30.400 --> 1:22:35.160 store makes over the target amount for the month, and 1:22:35.600 --> 1:22:39.519 they drastically increased the targets for the year going forward, 1:22:39.880 --> 1:22:43.120 which meant that because of that, our bonuses were getting lower. 1:22:43.520 --> 1:22:47.080 So this year, for the last month since that race, 1:22:47.520 --> 1:22:50.679 I've actually been making less money per month than I 1:22:50.720 --> 1:22:51.599 was the year before. 1:22:52.479 --> 1:22:59.080 Jesus Christ, So you're getting pay cuts basically, yes, Jesus Christ. 1:22:59.560 --> 1:23:03.320 After winning Store of the Year, incredible stuff. Incredible stuff 1:23:03.360 --> 1:23:07.120 from the people who are running their company in an 1:23:07.160 --> 1:23:08.240 extremely normal way. 1:23:09.880 --> 1:23:12.600 That was the spark that set this push for the 1:23:12.680 --> 1:23:17.040 union ablaze. And so in November I contacted the IWW 1:23:17.320 --> 1:23:21.040 Industrial Workers of the World and received a response, And 1:23:21.120 --> 1:23:23.640 so at first it was just me and one of 1:23:23.680 --> 1:23:26.760 the IWW representatives that we were meeting together to talk 1:23:26.800 --> 1:23:30.280 about forming a union, and we ended up having those 1:23:30.280 --> 1:23:33.200 meetings somewhat regularly, and the amount of people attending those 1:23:33.200 --> 1:23:35.800 meetings slowly started to grow, so it was maybe like 1:23:36.080 --> 1:23:38.960 two people, three people here and there. And then we 1:23:39.000 --> 1:23:41.400 took a break from the holidays because people were just 1:23:41.479 --> 1:23:43.880 generally unable to make it out and everything was super 1:23:43.960 --> 1:23:47.800 chaotic at the store. And after the holidays, I had 1:23:47.800 --> 1:23:53.960 the idea of hosting potlucks essentially and inviting people to potlucks. Ah, 1:23:54.120 --> 1:23:57.160 I can't remember, Renee, were you coming to these meetings 1:23:57.200 --> 1:23:58.760 before or after the potlucks? 1:23:59.040 --> 1:24:02.759 The first meeting I went to was at the hall 1:24:03.400 --> 1:24:08.800 where it was essentially just us grieving about our working 1:24:08.840 --> 1:24:12.080 conditions while the seasonals were there, and sort of it 1:24:12.200 --> 1:24:15.080 was I don't know how much it was in the 1:24:15.120 --> 1:24:17.680 works for you, how much stuff you had done up 1:24:17.760 --> 1:24:20.719 until that point, but I think that was the moment 1:24:21.720 --> 1:24:27.000 where we sort of became confident as a body in 1:24:27.520 --> 1:24:35.560 our prospects were unionizing. And then ye, the Pollux. 1:24:35.200 --> 1:24:39.760 Thereafter, Yeah, and the Pollux ended up starting to pull 1:24:39.840 --> 1:24:43.599 around around ten people. I think the highest attended one 1:24:43.640 --> 1:24:46.040 was actually twelve. And so when you have a shop 1:24:46.080 --> 1:24:48.320 that has about thirty two people in the bargaining unit, 1:24:48.760 --> 1:24:51.520 that is about a third of the shop attending an 1:24:51.560 --> 1:24:55.320 early union meeting while we're still in the underground phase 1:24:55.760 --> 1:25:00.280 of organizing, and we managed to successfully remain under round 1:25:00.439 --> 1:25:02.759 up until we decided to go public on our own terms. 1:25:03.120 --> 1:25:06.439 On March thirty. First, we had a march on the Boss, 1:25:06.960 --> 1:25:10.200 which slightly inconveniently, the boss had actually left the shop 1:25:10.320 --> 1:25:13.439 about forty five minutes early in for a shift, and 1:25:13.479 --> 1:25:15.800 we had accounted for her leaving early, but we didn't 1:25:15.800 --> 1:25:18.519 account for her leaving that early, and so the march 1:25:18.560 --> 1:25:21.439 on the boss kind of had this anti climax moment 1:25:21.479 --> 1:25:24.479 where the manager just wasn't in the store anymore and 1:25:24.520 --> 1:25:29.720 there wasn't anyone that actually had supervisory authority at the 1:25:29.760 --> 1:25:31.840 store for the march. 1:25:33.439 --> 1:25:35.720 Which I think there's two things there. I want to 1:25:35.720 --> 1:25:38.640 I want to come back to. Wond is the like, 1:25:38.720 --> 1:25:42.040 oh yeah, well, of course management. Management never found out 1:25:42.040 --> 1:25:44.639 about the UNI, but just left early because their management. 1:25:44.680 --> 1:25:47.559 And it's like, oh right, no, yeah, what happens if 1:25:47.600 --> 1:25:50.160 you leave just randomly walk off your job site like 1:25:50.200 --> 1:25:54.479 forty five minutes early, you're fucked. But managements just like, yeah, 1:25:54.520 --> 1:25:56.559 fuck it, I'm just done. I'm just out, Like I'm 1:25:56.600 --> 1:25:58.920 just I'm just leaving. Everything's gonna be fine, even if 1:25:58.960 --> 1:26:03.960 I'm not there, so I'm just leave roadly, right. God, 1:26:04.400 --> 1:26:06.400 I wanted to talk about the potlucks a little bit 1:26:06.439 --> 1:26:10.000 because it's a really good idea as just a way 1:26:10.080 --> 1:26:11.880 to make sure you can consistently get a bunch of 1:26:11.920 --> 1:26:14.960 people there, and yeah, can you talk about sort of 1:26:15.000 --> 1:26:17.439 what that was like and how they've been and what 1:26:17.479 --> 1:26:18.439 the effect of that has been. 1:26:19.200 --> 1:26:23.040 The POTLUCKX came about because I had the idea that 1:26:23.560 --> 1:26:25.680 people are going to be more willing to come to 1:26:25.760 --> 1:26:28.000 an event if it wasn't just going to be a 1:26:28.280 --> 1:26:31.439 meeting where they sat down and had to talk shop 1:26:31.640 --> 1:26:34.240 and they had to start talking about work while they're 1:26:34.240 --> 1:26:34.840 off the clock. 1:26:35.120 --> 1:26:36.240 But they'd be more much more. 1:26:36.200 --> 1:26:38.800 Likely to come if the meeting was framed more as 1:26:38.840 --> 1:26:40.640 a way to just hang out with their coworkers and 1:26:40.640 --> 1:26:41.200 eat dinner. 1:26:41.640 --> 1:26:42.000 Yeah. 1:26:42.200 --> 1:26:45.400 So this actually came from my experience when I was 1:26:45.400 --> 1:26:48.120 a kid. I grew up behind and even though I'm 1:26:48.160 --> 1:26:50.600 no longer Behi, the way that our community did it 1:26:50.640 --> 1:26:55.760 back home was mostly through community feasts and having prioritizing, 1:26:55.920 --> 1:26:58.400 like the feasts first and then the religious discussion later. 1:26:58.960 --> 1:27:02.720 So taking that sort of and putting a more of 1:27:02.760 --> 1:27:05.439 a union spin on it was the idea behind that, 1:27:05.760 --> 1:27:08.479 and it was a massive hit. Oh yeah, Renee, do 1:27:08.479 --> 1:27:09.680 you have any more thoughts on that? 1:27:10.520 --> 1:27:11.080 Yeah? 1:27:11.240 --> 1:27:15.680 I think the fact too that our worker body is 1:27:16.640 --> 1:27:18.559 I don't know if uniquely is the right word, but 1:27:19.360 --> 1:27:25.080 especially tight knit and supportive of one another really just 1:27:25.120 --> 1:27:31.439 sort of helped things flow in a very natural and 1:27:32.439 --> 1:27:37.240 easy going way. It was just super like salient for 1:27:37.320 --> 1:27:42.040 everything to come about out of these pollocks. We just 1:27:42.080 --> 1:27:45.760 sort of like sat down and immediately started like complaining 1:27:45.800 --> 1:27:49.920 about work. That oh yeah got us going, and like 1:27:50.479 --> 1:27:54.680 pretty much every meeting sense like that's how we just 1:27:54.760 --> 1:27:58.240 like start our our discussion or in our meetings is 1:27:58.320 --> 1:28:03.400 just what bullshit have you been facing from your managers? 1:28:03.960 --> 1:28:07.200 Et cetera. And we have to cut it short every time. 1:28:09.680 --> 1:28:12.080 Yeah, it feels bad sometimes to have to cut these 1:28:12.160 --> 1:28:15.320 complaints periods short because I think they can go on 1:28:15.560 --> 1:28:19.599 for two to three hours if if we're not careful, 1:28:19.800 --> 1:28:21.880 and I think the early ones did to actually go 1:28:21.960 --> 1:28:23.840 on for two to three hours, and we had clearly 1:28:23.920 --> 1:28:27.080 cought books that we didn't get any actual business done. 1:28:27.160 --> 1:28:29.840 We just spent two to three hours eating food and 1:28:29.840 --> 1:28:33.160 complaining about work with each other. And honestly, that kind 1:28:33.200 --> 1:28:35.400 of helped people get more comfortable with the idea, and 1:28:35.640 --> 1:28:39.840 it really agitated people in a way that I don't 1:28:39.840 --> 1:28:41.280 think we would have been able to do if we 1:28:41.360 --> 1:28:43.519 had just like tried to talk to people at work 1:28:43.560 --> 1:28:46.639 about unionizing or had like a more formal meeting, And 1:28:46.880 --> 1:28:48.639 it really just kept the moment in going. 1:28:49.040 --> 1:28:49.280 Yeah. 1:28:49.560 --> 1:28:54.720 I think it has this effect of like realizing everything 1:28:55.320 --> 1:28:58.000 because I mean, even I would walk in and be thinking, like, 1:28:58.880 --> 1:29:04.040 you know, this is like such a taxing endeavor unionizing 1:29:04.360 --> 1:29:07.240 the workplace, and yeah, yeah, every once in a while 1:29:07.280 --> 1:29:10.920 you'd have some sort of hesitation, I guess, but then 1:29:11.720 --> 1:29:13.439 every time I would leave, it would just sort of 1:29:13.479 --> 1:29:17.080 be like, this is like this is the only option 1:29:17.880 --> 1:29:22.040 and we're definitely going to do it, and we're all 1:29:22.080 --> 1:29:23.440 with it and it feels good. 1:29:23.800 --> 1:29:27.600 Well yeah, yeah, it seems like from from everything that 1:29:27.640 --> 1:29:29.360 I've heard and everything that you're saying, it seems like 1:29:29.400 --> 1:29:33.200 it's a really powerful way to sort of both combat 1:29:33.200 --> 1:29:36.160 atomization both. Is it just like, oh, this is like 1:29:36.200 --> 1:29:38.160 a social space where you and the people you work 1:29:38.200 --> 1:29:40.320 with who are your friends can exist with each other, 1:29:40.360 --> 1:29:43.400 and then also in a we can combat sort of 1:29:44.040 --> 1:29:47.639 alienation and adimisation and stuff by just doing the union 1:29:47.760 --> 1:29:50.240 work of Oh my god, we all have all of. 1:29:50.160 --> 1:29:51.640 These issues with our bosses. 1:29:52.080 --> 1:29:52.640 Yeah. 1:29:52.880 --> 1:29:57.080 Yeah, and when we return, we're going to talking and 1:29:57.120 --> 1:29:59.559 going to ask about the issues with the bosses. But 1:29:59.640 --> 1:30:03.799 first here I don't know the product services that support 1:30:03.880 --> 1:30:04.720 this podcast. 1:30:14.920 --> 1:30:16.559 We are back. 1:30:17.240 --> 1:30:18.800 I was like, oh, I have a good transition. I 1:30:18.800 --> 1:30:20.920 can go from complaining about the bosses to talk about 1:30:20.920 --> 1:30:23.360 what the bosses are doing. And then I was like, shit, 1:30:23.560 --> 1:30:27.280 I was supposed to cut an add We didn't think 1:30:27.280 --> 1:30:30.559 of that one fast enough, but you know, speaking speaking 1:30:30.600 --> 1:30:34.439 of doing things fast enough. So yeah, I wanted to 1:30:34.479 --> 1:30:37.160 ask before we get into sort of how things have 1:30:37.240 --> 1:30:40.559 been going more recently and where the campaign is going 1:30:40.600 --> 1:30:44.040 in elections stuff, other than sort of the pay raise stuff, 1:30:44.040 --> 1:30:46.120 what are the kinds of things that people have been 1:30:46.280 --> 1:30:48.040 dealing with Atmuji. 1:30:48.960 --> 1:30:52.080 So there's a lot of small things that have kind 1:30:52.080 --> 1:30:54.640 of piled up, and honestly, I say small things, but 1:30:55.160 --> 1:30:57.760 each one of these is kind of just like shocking 1:30:57.840 --> 1:31:02.559 on its own, but not rising necessarily to anyone that's 1:31:02.560 --> 1:31:05.280 worked in the service industry at all. Yeah, So, beyond 1:31:05.320 --> 1:31:07.960 the races, there's just been like a long pattern of 1:31:08.000 --> 1:31:11.960 emotional abuse from the bosses. People have been have been 1:31:12.160 --> 1:31:15.160 yelled at for pretty much no reason. The bosses have 1:31:15.320 --> 1:31:18.719 directly insulted workers' abilities, like on the floor as they're 1:31:18.720 --> 1:31:22.519 doing stuff. They've done things like pressure staff not to 1:31:22.600 --> 1:31:25.280 use their sick time, even going so far as occasionally 1:31:25.280 --> 1:31:27.800 implying that getting sick is like your own fault and 1:31:27.840 --> 1:31:31.840 that people are able to perfectly prevent themselves from getting sick. 1:31:32.680 --> 1:31:35.960 Yeah, in your job, you have to be around people 1:31:36.040 --> 1:31:40.519 all the time because you're doing a service. God, I 1:31:40.640 --> 1:31:45.759 hate this, like getting weird pseudo eugenesis shit about disease 1:31:45.840 --> 1:31:49.800 that's just everywhere now that runs the Department of yeah, 1:31:49.920 --> 1:31:51.479 Health and Human Services of the CDC. 1:31:52.760 --> 1:31:56.479 Like this, this weekend or this last weekend at the 1:31:56.479 --> 1:31:59.880 time of recording was Memorial Day weekend, and on SAT, 1:32:00.280 --> 1:32:03.439 the peak day of that weekend, there were three thousand 1:32:03.520 --> 1:32:06.840 customers approximately in store over the course of the day. 1:32:07.400 --> 1:32:11.040 And reminder that we are a team of thirty two 1:32:11.160 --> 1:32:14.759 people in total, and so of course not all thirty 1:32:14.760 --> 1:32:16.400 two people are going to be at the store at 1:32:16.400 --> 1:32:19.200 once at the same time. And so when your crew 1:32:19.280 --> 1:32:23.800 is maybe ten fifteen if you're lucky, people big and 1:32:23.920 --> 1:32:26.680 handling a customer volume of about three thousand over the 1:32:26.720 --> 1:32:29.400 course of a day. You're interacting with so many people 1:32:29.479 --> 1:32:32.040 that it's worse than Maybe it's not worse than, because 1:32:32.360 --> 1:32:36.040 kids can get pretty pretty nasty sometimes, with much respect 1:32:36.040 --> 1:32:39.200 to all the teachers out there, it can get to 1:32:39.280 --> 1:32:41.639 be a bit of a biohazard, especially when you're working 1:32:41.680 --> 1:32:44.080 in places like the fitting room that don't have ventilation 1:32:44.640 --> 1:32:48.760 and you're possibly interacting the closest with customers, and you're 1:32:48.920 --> 1:32:52.080 constantly interacting with like clothing that has been like pressed 1:32:52.160 --> 1:32:55.920 up against people's bodies. You're interacting with people that just 1:32:55.960 --> 1:32:58.679 aren't being super conscious about the space, and you're maybe 1:32:58.680 --> 1:33:02.080 you're in this small confines with two, three, even four 1:33:02.120 --> 1:33:05.120 other people for a prolonged period of time. Of course, 1:33:05.160 --> 1:33:07.280 the customer service team is going to get sick more. 1:33:07.600 --> 1:33:10.600 Yeah, that's like a small and medium sized like convention 1:33:11.280 --> 1:33:13.680 that's just running through your store over the course of 1:33:13.800 --> 1:33:15.920 one day. It's like, oh, yeah, everyone has like pax 1:33:16.040 --> 1:33:18.519 pocks or whatever they're like convention plague is. But that's 1:33:18.560 --> 1:33:22.400 just like going to work. It's like oh yeah, no, 1:33:22.520 --> 1:33:25.559 of course, apparently somehow you're supposed to like magically have 1:33:25.640 --> 1:33:30.400 the like anti disease talismans. Yeah, it's like the plagued masses. 1:33:33.360 --> 1:33:36.639 And on top of that, I've called out maybe once 1:33:36.680 --> 1:33:39.040 a month. I think that maybe there's one month where 1:33:39.080 --> 1:33:42.080 it was twice a month since January. And I've already 1:33:42.160 --> 1:33:44.240 used up all the allocated sick time that I get 1:33:44.280 --> 1:33:46.960 for a year, Jesus. And that's with one of the 1:33:47.320 --> 1:33:50.680 better sick pay plans as a full timer. And so 1:33:50.760 --> 1:33:52.800 I can't imagine what people are having to go through 1:33:52.840 --> 1:33:55.080 at part time, where they're already not getting enough hours 1:33:55.080 --> 1:33:57.240 to pay rent off of their job. Yeah, and they're 1:33:57.280 --> 1:33:59.840 having to decide essentially between coming to work sick or 1:34:00.040 --> 1:34:03.439 calling out and taking that financial hit. I know one 1:34:03.439 --> 1:34:07.280 of our staff members has actually been evicted because they 1:34:07.320 --> 1:34:09.920 were not able to make rent because they didn't make 1:34:10.000 --> 1:34:10.639 enough hours. 1:34:10.960 --> 1:34:14.600 Oh my god, we're just having your sick hours rejected 1:34:15.120 --> 1:34:15.799 on the app. 1:34:16.120 --> 1:34:17.599 But it's an app. 1:34:17.640 --> 1:34:18.439 Oh my god. 1:34:18.960 --> 1:34:19.639 Yeah, that's right. 1:34:19.840 --> 1:34:21.840 If your sick hours can get rejected, you don't have 1:34:21.880 --> 1:34:23.840 sick hours like yeah. 1:34:24.520 --> 1:34:27.559 And there's more too. It doesn't end there. They apply 1:34:27.720 --> 1:34:30.760 policies that we have this employee handbook that has this 1:34:31.400 --> 1:34:36.320 list of requirements and expectations and it is not really 1:34:36.360 --> 1:34:39.759 a huge part of our employment typically, but the policies 1:34:39.760 --> 1:34:42.439 that they have listed there are applied and consistently. Stuff 1:34:42.479 --> 1:34:45.439 like the uniform code is one of the biggest examples 1:34:45.439 --> 1:34:48.559 of this, where they will more heavily enforce the uniform 1:34:48.600 --> 1:34:51.240 code against people of color, or people with alternative styles 1:34:51.280 --> 1:34:54.640 of dress, or even they can be they can be 1:34:54.720 --> 1:34:57.519 fairly fat phobic. There have been multiple people that have 1:34:58.120 --> 1:35:01.439 said that the managers will shure them to essentially cover 1:35:01.560 --> 1:35:03.799 up parts of their body, that they will allow skinnier 1:35:03.840 --> 1:35:05.439 people to show. 1:35:05.920 --> 1:35:11.559 What Jesus Christ, Oh my god, that is so incredibly shitty, 1:35:11.840 --> 1:35:14.880 and that's got to be illegal somehow, even under like 1:35:15.040 --> 1:35:18.639 unhinged American labor law. That just feels like it feels 1:35:18.680 --> 1:35:23.360 like a very open form of discrimination. But Jesus Christ, 1:35:24.520 --> 1:35:25.280 oh my god. 1:35:26.080 --> 1:35:28.720 Yeah, do you have anything to add renee. 1:35:28.439 --> 1:35:32.160 Along those lines, just sort of like being asked to 1:35:32.320 --> 1:35:37.080 profile people. All employees can be scheduled to cover the 1:35:37.160 --> 1:35:42.160 securities breaks, which basically just involves standing around one of 1:35:42.200 --> 1:35:50.560 the entrances and reporting anything quote fishy on the radios, 1:35:50.880 --> 1:35:53.440 anything suspicious, they say suspicious. 1:35:53.520 --> 1:35:55.559 So they could just co opt you into being a 1:35:55.600 --> 1:35:56.400 security guard. 1:35:56.720 --> 1:36:00.600 What, Yeah, the security guard doesn't have any duties regarding 1:36:00.640 --> 1:36:05.960 like loss prevention. All the managers do that as part 1:36:05.960 --> 1:36:09.800 of their duties, I guess. But yeah, so they just 1:36:09.840 --> 1:36:12.040 sort of say suspicious people. 1:36:12.520 --> 1:36:15.200 And on that note too, there have been times where 1:36:15.240 --> 1:36:18.519 people have been maybe not strictly disciplined. I actually don't 1:36:18.520 --> 1:36:20.320 know for sure if there's been an instant of someone 1:36:20.360 --> 1:36:22.040 being written up, but there have been times where the 1:36:22.080 --> 1:36:26.400 managers have approached people and essentially just I yelled at 1:36:26.400 --> 1:36:28.719 them for allowing someone to get out of the store 1:36:28.720 --> 1:36:32.040 with merchandise, even though loss prevention is very specifically not 1:36:32.160 --> 1:36:35.559 part of our job description and that the official store 1:36:35.600 --> 1:36:39.439 policy actively discourages staff from engaging an active loss prevention 1:36:39.600 --> 1:36:39.800 like that. 1:36:40.680 --> 1:36:44.479 So you're getting yelled at for doing the thing you 1:36:44.520 --> 1:36:46.800 were told to do that is explicitly not part of 1:36:46.840 --> 1:36:49.760 your job, that's supposed to be the manager's job, and 1:36:49.800 --> 1:36:53.120 the managers are pissed off that you're not doing what's 1:36:53.160 --> 1:36:56.680 nominally their job. That you also and the written thing 1:36:56.680 --> 1:37:00.720 you're not supposed to do. Exactly incredible, incredible, incredible catch 1:37:00.760 --> 1:37:05.240 twenty two logic here, it's real, just oh, yeah, you're 1:37:05.280 --> 1:37:07.599 explicitly not supposed to do this. You could get punished 1:37:07.640 --> 1:37:09.120 if you do it, but also if you don't do it, 1:37:09.160 --> 1:37:12.120 we're gonna yell at you. It's gone. Jesus Christ. 1:37:13.800 --> 1:37:19.280 Yeah, yeah, naturally, there's not really anything that we can 1:37:19.360 --> 1:37:24.400 do about this besides unionize and besides start taking actions 1:37:24.439 --> 1:37:27.479 on our own, because the law certainly isn't going to 1:37:27.520 --> 1:37:31.400 help us for this. Even organ state law, which is 1:37:31.800 --> 1:37:34.280 which hans to be more protective of workers than other 1:37:34.320 --> 1:37:39.320 states are. They're incredibly overwhelmed right now with requests and 1:37:39.680 --> 1:37:43.160 going through the bully Bureau of organ Labor and Industries 1:37:43.200 --> 1:37:47.360 I think is the acronym going down the Bullie websites lists. 1:37:47.439 --> 1:37:50.679 There's a complaints box, but it says on the website 1:37:50.720 --> 1:37:53.439 that they have an incredibly high backlog of complaints that 1:37:53.439 --> 1:37:55.640 they're trying to process and that they're going through a 1:37:55.640 --> 1:37:59.040 triage system, and none of the things that we've listed 1:37:59.080 --> 1:38:02.400 so far to be placed very highly on that triage. 1:38:02.960 --> 1:38:07.240 In addition to that, we don't have access to direct 1:38:07.280 --> 1:38:10.599 access to our HR department at work. They ask us 1:38:10.640 --> 1:38:13.600 to go through a third party reporting company called Lighthouse, 1:38:14.439 --> 1:38:17.000 and as far as I know, no one has ever 1:38:17.280 --> 1:38:20.920 heard anything about Lighthouse doing anything to resolve a situation 1:38:21.120 --> 1:38:24.880 between them and management when management is treating them unfairly incredible, 1:38:25.240 --> 1:38:28.880 and it's essentially feels like just shouting into the void 1:38:29.080 --> 1:38:32.880 interacting with Lighthouse because you're just sending a complaint to 1:38:33.200 --> 1:38:36.479 a body that you don't have any access to and 1:38:36.600 --> 1:38:37.960 just hoping that they fix something. 1:38:38.360 --> 1:38:42.040 So they've contracted out their HR department, so you're just 1:38:42.040 --> 1:38:44.120 like talking to their car or is it that you 1:38:44.120 --> 1:38:48.040 can't communicate with them directly? And that's very weird. 1:38:48.360 --> 1:38:52.439 So they have an HR department. The workers at the 1:38:52.520 --> 1:38:56.800 physical location cannot communicate with HR. We are not given 1:38:56.840 --> 1:38:59.760 their their phone numbers, or their emails or anything like that. 1:39:00.240 --> 1:39:02.880 All of our HR communication has to be done through 1:39:02.920 --> 1:39:05.840 our general store manager. So when we have problems with 1:39:05.960 --> 1:39:09.360 the general store manager or assistant store managers, we can't 1:39:09.439 --> 1:39:11.760 really go to HR because we have to go through 1:39:11.760 --> 1:39:14.160 the very people that we're having problems with in order 1:39:14.200 --> 1:39:15.040 to reach our HR. 1:39:15.280 --> 1:39:19.400 Incredible. It's all means to make HR even faker, which 1:39:19.439 --> 1:39:22.840 is incredible. Oh good lord. 1:39:23.880 --> 1:39:27.360 It would also be remiss, I guess, to forget about 1:39:27.520 --> 1:39:31.240 the sexual assaults, Oh Jesus correct, Maybe not specifically sexual assault, 1:39:31.400 --> 1:39:36.360 but definitely sexual harassment possible sexual assault that has been 1:39:36.640 --> 1:39:42.120 raised to management before, where the management supposedly pushed those 1:39:42.200 --> 1:39:45.679 complaints to HR, but then HR would wait for weeks 1:39:45.680 --> 1:39:48.839 before doing anything about it. Oh my god, this happened 1:39:48.960 --> 1:39:52.280 a year or two ago. No, it was probably more 1:39:52.280 --> 1:39:54.479 in the realm of two to three years ago, if 1:39:54.520 --> 1:39:58.320 my memory is correct, where we had a coworker that 1:39:58.520 --> 1:40:02.240 was not just pro filing people and calling security on 1:40:02.280 --> 1:40:05.120 people that were doing nothing, but he was also sexually 1:40:05.120 --> 1:40:12.080 harassing other coworkers. Jesus Christ and the store managers told 1:40:12.160 --> 1:40:14.280 us that they had pushed these complaints to HR, but 1:40:14.479 --> 1:40:19.599 HR wasn't doing anything, and it took them about a month, 1:40:19.720 --> 1:40:23.760 I believe, to fire this person. And essentially what they 1:40:23.800 --> 1:40:27.840 were doing before is they were telling people that if 1:40:27.920 --> 1:40:30.920 they talked about the situation or create a drama about 1:40:30.920 --> 1:40:33.439 the situation, that they would retaliate against the people that 1:40:33.479 --> 1:40:34.840 were talking about the situation. 1:40:34.960 --> 1:40:37.440 Oh my god, Jesus. 1:40:37.720 --> 1:40:40.080 They didn't say outright, but they implied everything up to 1:40:40.240 --> 1:40:43.040 job loss for the people that were talking about this. 1:40:43.360 --> 1:40:44.120 Oh my god. 1:40:44.800 --> 1:40:47.799 And they started pulling people into the office and essentially 1:40:47.840 --> 1:40:51.280 having one on one conversations Oh my god, that were 1:40:51.680 --> 1:40:54.519 honestly quite scary to the people that were trying to 1:40:54.560 --> 1:40:57.120 spread the word about this, and they created quite a 1:40:57.120 --> 1:41:01.040 hostile store environment for a long time. Around that time 1:41:01.160 --> 1:41:03.599 was actually the first time that we had attempted to 1:41:03.600 --> 1:41:05.519 try and get a push to unionize, but that ended 1:41:05.600 --> 1:41:08.640 up dissolving and that was essentially the end of that 1:41:08.880 --> 1:41:10.839 up until on this most recent push. 1:41:11.040 --> 1:41:11.360 Yeah. 1:41:11.400 --> 1:41:15.639 God, that's really hideous, both the way in which they 1:41:15.680 --> 1:41:18.639 just pushed it up the latter to HR and then 1:41:18.840 --> 1:41:21.439 just didn't do anything about it for like a fucking 1:41:21.520 --> 1:41:24.320 month that that also just the only thing they did 1:41:24.400 --> 1:41:26.880 do about it was retaliating against people who were trying 1:41:26.880 --> 1:41:30.120 to talk about it. That is Jesus as disgusting. 1:41:30.960 --> 1:41:33.280 Yeah, about the most that they did during that month 1:41:33.360 --> 1:41:35.680 to the actual coworker in question that was doing the 1:41:35.720 --> 1:41:40.040 harassment was they tried to maintain some degree of physical 1:41:40.080 --> 1:41:44.120 separation between him and the other coworkers and that was it. 1:41:44.520 --> 1:41:47.840 They kept him on the roster, They kept him at 1:41:47.880 --> 1:41:50.639 the same positions that other people were working. He had 1:41:50.840 --> 1:41:53.280 essentially all the same job responsibilities as other people and 1:41:53.320 --> 1:41:55.160 still had a pretty high degree of contact with other 1:41:55.200 --> 1:41:56.559 coworkers during this whole time. 1:41:56.800 --> 1:41:59.040 Yeah, So the people who were trying to speak out. 1:41:59.040 --> 1:42:00.920 I guess it until this I was fired, we're getting 1:42:00.920 --> 1:42:01.840 punished more than he. 1:42:01.880 --> 1:42:06.320 Was, essentially, Yeah, Jesus all the way up until he 1:42:06.360 --> 1:42:08.840 was finally fired. And I don't know what it was 1:42:08.880 --> 1:42:10.680 that actually got them to do it this time, but 1:42:11.280 --> 1:42:14.320 they wanted to wait until they had got something actually 1:42:14.360 --> 1:42:17.800 on camera, I believe, but it's kind of hard for 1:42:17.920 --> 1:42:21.439 you to catch something like harassment words on camera. 1:42:21.920 --> 1:42:22.480 Yeah. 1:42:22.560 --> 1:42:25.880 If their bar for sexual harassment is stuff that they 1:42:25.880 --> 1:42:27.960 can catch on camera, they're never going to get most 1:42:28.040 --> 1:42:31.439 instances of harassment, and they're not doing their their proper 1:42:31.560 --> 1:42:33.680 job investigating these accusations. 1:42:34.080 --> 1:42:37.000 Yeah, and that also means that they're delivered strategy is 1:42:37.040 --> 1:42:40.080 to wait for someone to get hurt again, exactly. That's right, 1:42:40.120 --> 1:42:43.599 They're just throwing them to the fucking lions dend. Their 1:42:43.680 --> 1:42:46.439 strategy to detect that a bus is about to hit 1:42:46.479 --> 1:42:48.000 someone is to push someone in front of the bus 1:42:48.080 --> 1:42:50.360 and take a picture of it, which is just so 1:42:50.560 --> 1:42:51.920 unbelievably unacceptable. 1:42:52.320 --> 1:42:52.960 Yeah. 1:42:53.240 --> 1:42:56.160 And I want to be clear too that this whole 1:42:56.200 --> 1:43:00.880 list is very much non exhaustive. There have been so 1:43:01.000 --> 1:43:04.760 many cases of just patterns of abuse for management and 1:43:06.360 --> 1:43:08.920 it's not possible for me to go down the entire 1:43:08.960 --> 1:43:12.000 list of things. I mean, as I mentioned previously, it 1:43:12.040 --> 1:43:14.760 would be two to three hours of people complaining about 1:43:14.800 --> 1:43:17.639 stuff that they had gone through at work during these meetings, 1:43:18.160 --> 1:43:21.479 and occasionally you get some repetition, but this is something 1:43:21.479 --> 1:43:24.639 that is very consistent. It's just a part of working 1:43:24.720 --> 1:43:25.240 at the store. 1:43:25.880 --> 1:43:30.160 Yeah, every day there's another unique core that someone is experiencing, 1:43:31.520 --> 1:43:35.120 and I guess this brings us to Okay, so how 1:43:35.200 --> 1:43:39.840 do you make the horrors stop? And that is unionizing. 1:43:39.960 --> 1:43:43.880 So yeah, let's talk about what's been happening recently in 1:43:43.960 --> 1:43:48.519 terms of like how the union is immobilizing and about 1:43:48.560 --> 1:43:51.920 the upcoming election, which will be a few days after 1:43:51.960 --> 1:43:54.000 you're hearing this, assuming you're listening to this the day 1:43:54.000 --> 1:43:54.559 it comes out. 1:43:55.080 --> 1:43:58.840 Yeah, So we've been sort of ramping up a little bit. 1:43:58.920 --> 1:44:04.599 It's been being inflowing since we started, you know, last 1:44:04.800 --> 1:44:10.800 like November, but we're really trying to kick it into gear, 1:44:11.640 --> 1:44:19.200 get people aware, get people back engaged. So we have 1:44:19.280 --> 1:44:22.639 a few things we've been doing well. On May first, 1:44:22.760 --> 1:44:27.800 for May Day, we tabled with the IWW and just 1:44:28.040 --> 1:44:33.240 started a petition just for signatures from the community. For 1:44:33.360 --> 1:44:36.200 support for acknowledgment if we ever need to, you know, 1:44:36.280 --> 1:44:41.000 pull it out and show our bosses that you know, 1:44:41.080 --> 1:44:46.160 this is no light endeavor. This is not like something 1:44:46.200 --> 1:44:52.040 they can laugh off. Yeah, but it ended up being 1:44:52.479 --> 1:44:56.280 sort of successful beyond what I imagined. We got lots 1:44:56.280 --> 1:44:59.840 of attention, lots of people saying that they had di 1:45:00.000 --> 1:45:03.680 I know that we were unionizing, people taking lots of 1:45:03.680 --> 1:45:08.200 pictures of us. Our big banner, got one inquiry for 1:45:08.439 --> 1:45:12.880 a journal report that I think is out now, and 1:45:12.920 --> 1:45:15.600 we were also written about in what was it? Was 1:45:15.640 --> 1:45:20.800 it Oregon Live or was the Oregonian? Do you remember, Luna? 1:45:21.520 --> 1:45:25.479 We had a small article published about us by the 1:45:25.520 --> 1:45:28.000 Northwest Libor Press that was then picked up by the 1:45:28.000 --> 1:45:28.839 Portland Mercury. 1:45:30.160 --> 1:45:33.320 That's right. Yeah, So we did that. And then other 1:45:33.400 --> 1:45:38.600 than that, we're sort of fighting some recently published propaganda 1:45:39.320 --> 1:45:46.320 from our boss is with display a hilarious amount of misinformation, Yeah, 1:45:46.360 --> 1:45:48.000 average boss communication. 1:45:48.880 --> 1:45:51.840 The other big thing that's been happening is that the 1:45:51.840 --> 1:45:54.599 reason that the election is happening so long after our 1:45:54.640 --> 1:45:58.760 initial march and declaration of intense to unionize is that 1:45:58.960 --> 1:46:01.599 the bosses have been trying to divide up the bargaining 1:46:01.680 --> 1:46:05.519 unit in a fairly strange case where the employer has 1:46:05.560 --> 1:46:09.760 been contending that the merchandising staff, which is essentially the 1:46:09.800 --> 1:46:12.120 back of the house staff but only like a sub 1:46:12.200 --> 1:46:14.360 section of the back of the house staff, are not 1:46:14.439 --> 1:46:17.840 eligible for unionization under the same union as the rest 1:46:17.840 --> 1:46:19.920 of the staff are. H they did this under the 1:46:19.960 --> 1:46:22.920 notion that the merchandising staff don't share a community of 1:46:22.920 --> 1:46:24.920 interest with the rest of the staff. And the other 1:46:24.920 --> 1:46:26.800 thing that they tried to do is they tried to 1:46:27.360 --> 1:46:30.400 take the keyholders, which are sort of like a shift 1:46:30.479 --> 1:46:34.400 lead position, away from the bargaining unit by trying to 1:46:34.400 --> 1:46:39.080 get them designated as supervisors, specifically Section two to eleven 1:46:39.120 --> 1:46:44.040 supervisors under the National Labor Relations Act. And we managed 1:46:44.160 --> 1:46:48.479 to shoot down both of those contests in a board 1:46:48.520 --> 1:46:51.800 hearing with the National Labor Relations Board. Hell yeah, and 1:46:51.920 --> 1:46:54.720 the process took a little bit over a month if 1:46:54.760 --> 1:46:59.160 I remember correctly, and without going too heavily into detail 1:46:59.200 --> 1:47:02.800 about it, the community of interests rule basically says that 1:47:02.880 --> 1:47:05.880 if employees don't share a community of interest with members 1:47:05.880 --> 1:47:08.000 of a bargaining unit, they have to unionize under a 1:47:08.000 --> 1:47:11.479 different union. And then the other thing is that the 1:47:11.600 --> 1:47:16.840 NLRA says that if you have supervisory authority, and there's 1:47:16.880 --> 1:47:19.240 a whole laundry list of authorities that are defined in 1:47:19.280 --> 1:47:22.880 the act. If you are a supervisor, then you don't 1:47:22.880 --> 1:47:27.559 get to unionize legally, period. And so what made this 1:47:27.680 --> 1:47:31.559 case strange is that typically employers try and add groups 1:47:31.600 --> 1:47:34.720 of employees onto the unit they believe are on the 1:47:34.760 --> 1:47:37.880 side of the employer of the anti union side, and 1:47:38.120 --> 1:47:41.559 the union generally has to contend that these people don't 1:47:41.560 --> 1:47:44.400 share community of interests or are supervisors or whatever. So 1:47:44.439 --> 1:47:46.840 it's kind of a bit of a strange situation where 1:47:46.840 --> 1:47:49.600 it's turned on its head, where instead the employer is 1:47:49.640 --> 1:47:53.240 having to prove that these people are not sharing community 1:47:53.240 --> 1:47:56.639 of interests or our supervisors. And so, even though we 1:47:56.720 --> 1:48:00.840 couldn't afford proper legal counsel and so then and representatives 1:48:00.840 --> 1:48:03.280 were myself and a friend of ours who was a 1:48:03.280 --> 1:48:07.240 member of the IWW, we were able to essentially represent 1:48:07.320 --> 1:48:11.320 ourselves in this board hearing, and the case was decided 1:48:11.360 --> 1:48:13.760 in our faith for on both counts. Hell yeah, so 1:48:14.560 --> 1:48:15.880 rock it really does? 1:48:16.040 --> 1:48:16.360 I was. 1:48:17.360 --> 1:48:19.599 I was not shocked to find out that the case 1:48:19.680 --> 1:48:21.880 was decided in our favor on the community of interest issue, 1:48:21.880 --> 1:48:25.519 because that would be like saying that the back of 1:48:25.560 --> 1:48:28.080 the houseworkers at a restaurants can't unionize with the front 1:48:28.120 --> 1:48:31.040 of the houseworkers just because they have different job descriptions. 1:48:31.240 --> 1:48:34.000 Yeah, Chiverish right. 1:48:34.760 --> 1:48:38.680 However, I was surprised at first. I was surprised at 1:48:38.760 --> 1:48:41.840 least that we managed to win on the issues of 1:48:42.040 --> 1:48:46.040 supervisory authority with the keyholders. I thought that it would 1:48:46.080 --> 1:48:48.360 take a pretty solid case in order for us to 1:48:48.400 --> 1:48:52.320 defend against that. And huge props to our friend, who 1:48:52.479 --> 1:48:55.599 I'm not sure if they're comfortable being name dropped as 1:48:55.640 --> 1:48:58.960 an IWW member like five to the world, so I'm 1:48:58.960 --> 1:49:02.200 not going to name them, but it is large thanks 1:49:02.240 --> 1:49:04.360 to this friend of ours that'll be on that case. 1:49:04.760 --> 1:49:17.240 Oh so that's where we stand now, and the board 1:49:17.280 --> 1:49:20.000 hearing was decided in our favor, and the election has 1:49:20.000 --> 1:49:23.920 been decided for next week, and both guys are now 1:49:24.000 --> 1:49:26.799 just trying to have our campaigns in preparation. 1:49:27.400 --> 1:49:31.479 Yeah, hell yeah. It's a sort of different version of 1:49:31.560 --> 1:49:35.280 like the very common tactic of because bosses want there 1:49:35.280 --> 1:49:39.200 to be more time in between when you file your 1:49:39.240 --> 1:49:41.519 paperwork to unionize and the election, because it gives them 1:49:41.560 --> 1:49:43.960 more time to do intimidation and fear tactics, and like 1:49:44.600 --> 1:49:48.559 that period in between designed to unionize and getting to 1:49:48.760 --> 1:49:50.639 actually do the vote is one of the perios where 1:49:50.720 --> 1:49:53.840 union is most vulnerable. And it's also really impressive that, Yeah, 1:49:53.880 --> 1:49:56.240 you just sort of walked into the board hearing and 1:49:56.280 --> 1:50:04.000 beat them by just reading a bunch of labor law stuff. Yeah. Yeah, 1:50:04.520 --> 1:50:08.680 workers of the world too, fucking anti union lawyers zero. 1:50:09.439 --> 1:50:09.879 Yeah. 1:50:10.560 --> 1:50:15.599 Basically, yeah, it was very strange across examining my manager 1:50:16.000 --> 1:50:21.599 under oath hell yeah, and then going to work. I 1:50:21.640 --> 1:50:25.240 didn't manage to attend the entirety of either of the 1:50:25.280 --> 1:50:28.200 days of the hearing because I had to close. I 1:50:28.240 --> 1:50:30.360 had to go to work at noon on both days 1:50:30.360 --> 1:50:33.320 that the hearing was. That's so nuts, which is why 1:50:33.320 --> 1:50:35.400 I wasn't there for the full hearing for either of 1:50:35.439 --> 1:50:38.519 the days. So I ended up having to log on 1:50:38.640 --> 1:50:42.200 in the morning onto the zoom meeting and attend the 1:50:42.240 --> 1:50:45.519 first two and a half hours and then hop off 1:50:45.560 --> 1:50:49.000 call and leave and then go to work and see 1:50:49.000 --> 1:50:50.479 my managers at work. 1:50:50.800 --> 1:50:59.880 Oh my god, Oh my god. It's also that's so nuts. 1:51:00.160 --> 1:51:02.599 You didn't get time off to go to the union 1:51:02.640 --> 1:51:04.120 hearing exactly. 1:51:04.320 --> 1:51:06.360 Yeah, I mean they were getting paid right, that's. 1:51:06.400 --> 1:51:07.800 Why they were getting paid. 1:51:08.000 --> 1:51:12.120 Oh my god, the managers that were testifying in favor 1:51:12.240 --> 1:51:13.760 of the employer capitalism. 1:51:13.880 --> 1:51:14.960 Bad system. 1:51:15.160 --> 1:51:18.000 Wow, we could possibly have expected this. 1:51:18.520 --> 1:51:21.479 Yeah, it was actively a challenge to find witnesses to 1:51:21.640 --> 1:51:25.000 testify for us, because the people who would be able 1:51:25.040 --> 1:51:28.160 to call us witnesses or coworkers are people who are 1:51:28.200 --> 1:51:31.719 maybe working the days of the hearing and can't actually 1:51:31.760 --> 1:51:35.479 get time off to come testify because they have to 1:51:35.479 --> 1:51:36.000 be at work. 1:51:36.120 --> 1:51:38.280 Oh my god, that's so fucked. 1:51:38.360 --> 1:51:40.280 There was one person who we approached because we were 1:51:40.280 --> 1:51:43.160 hoping that they would testify for us, who couldn't because 1:51:43.200 --> 1:51:46.800 she was working that day. It's too too complicated of 1:51:46.800 --> 1:51:50.720 a process to want to try and like subpoena them 1:51:50.840 --> 1:51:54.160 and legally get them to have the time off to 1:51:54.200 --> 1:51:55.639 come to the hearing. 1:51:56.000 --> 1:51:56.520 Jesus. 1:51:56.920 --> 1:51:59.200 So we ended up just having to figure out a 1:51:59.240 --> 1:52:02.360 way to present witnesses and have a slightly weaker case 1:52:02.400 --> 1:52:04.839 because of it. And thankfully that didn't end up mattering. 1:52:05.200 --> 1:52:07.280 But for a minute I was worried that we wouldn't 1:52:07.320 --> 1:52:09.280 be able to have as good of a case as 1:52:09.280 --> 1:52:10.960 we could have because we were not able to get 1:52:10.960 --> 1:52:12.719 a keyholder on the stand like we were hoping. 1:52:13.280 --> 1:52:16.120 Yeah, I'm glad, I'm glad you're able to pull it together. 1:52:16.160 --> 1:52:19.400 That's really impressive. And yeah, that you still just beat 1:52:19.439 --> 1:52:22.200 them even though they had And I guess that is 1:52:22.240 --> 1:52:24.120 one of the lessons of this is like, yeah, if 1:52:24.200 --> 1:52:27.360 you're willing to put the work in and work together 1:52:27.680 --> 1:52:30.160 and figure out how to navigate the system and figure 1:52:30.160 --> 1:52:32.519 out where you can apply pressure, like, yeah, you can 1:52:32.600 --> 1:52:35.120 beat a bunch of people who have way way more 1:52:35.120 --> 1:52:39.519 resources than you do because they're usually just wrong. 1:52:39.960 --> 1:52:40.320 Yeah. 1:52:40.640 --> 1:52:44.760 Yeah, I want to actually really drive that point home 1:52:44.960 --> 1:52:50.640 that neither I or my co representative have experience in 1:52:50.680 --> 1:52:53.080 any sort of like legal fields. Neither of us are 1:52:53.120 --> 1:52:56.400 even lost students. We are just the people that decided 1:52:56.439 --> 1:53:00.720 to step up and take on this role. And I 1:53:00.760 --> 1:53:04.759 don't think that there is some like special unique quality 1:53:04.800 --> 1:53:06.760 about us that allowed us to do it. It was 1:53:06.960 --> 1:53:10.080 just putting in the work that was required. It's a 1:53:10.479 --> 1:53:14.080 scary thing, being asked to essentially represent yourself in a 1:53:14.640 --> 1:53:18.880 legal setting, and I think it's a testament to how 1:53:19.080 --> 1:53:23.920 people are capable of things that they're not necessarily trained 1:53:23.960 --> 1:53:28.559 to do, and that this whole process of unionization does 1:53:28.600 --> 1:53:32.679 not necessarily require the vast resources that you might think 1:53:32.680 --> 1:53:39.040 it entails. It requires some planning, it requires some tactics, 1:53:39.120 --> 1:53:41.559 but it is something that everyone is able to do. 1:53:42.479 --> 1:53:45.200 Hell yeah, I guess if I was really on my 1:53:45.240 --> 1:53:47.920 game here, I would have something about like the concept 1:53:47.960 --> 1:53:50.040 of the organic intellectual, et cetera, et cetera. But I 1:53:50.080 --> 1:53:53.519 don't even think that's really what's going on here. It's 1:53:53.600 --> 1:53:56.439 just like, in the same way that like economics is 1:53:56.479 --> 1:53:59.479 designed to be esoteric, and you know, like finance is 1:53:59.479 --> 1:54:03.599 designed to be difficult to understand. But in the immortal 1:54:03.600 --> 1:54:06.080 words of Dan Elson, there are plenty of c students 1:54:06.080 --> 1:54:10.840 who've gotten economics degrees, like you can understand this. It's 1:54:10.960 --> 1:54:13.120 just it just takes some work, and it takes some 1:54:14.040 --> 1:54:17.519 dedication to fighting together, and it takes yeah, people working together. 1:54:17.520 --> 1:54:20.320 But these people are not smarter than you. They're all 1:54:20.360 --> 1:54:23.640 better than you. They have more money, but that's ultimately 1:54:23.720 --> 1:54:25.719 not the fact that it decides everything. 1:54:26.320 --> 1:54:29.280 And I don't want to discount the amount of support 1:54:29.360 --> 1:54:33.280 that we received from the rest of our coworkers as well. Yeah, 1:54:33.320 --> 1:54:36.640 this was truly a group effort, and everyone helped out 1:54:36.640 --> 1:54:39.520 in their own small ways, whether it was helping take 1:54:39.560 --> 1:54:42.440 care of social media posts, whether it was helping cook 1:54:42.520 --> 1:54:46.160 for us, host meeting locations. I've been dealing with a 1:54:46.200 --> 1:54:49.400 pest problem at my apartment, so I've been unable to 1:54:49.440 --> 1:54:51.600 for about the amount of time that all this legal 1:54:51.680 --> 1:54:53.640 process has been going on, So I haven't been able 1:54:53.680 --> 1:54:57.840 to host pollocks anymore, and a former coworker of ours 1:54:58.000 --> 1:55:01.720 has been hosting instead and putting in the work for that. 1:55:03.240 --> 1:55:06.440 It really is something that works when everyone comes together 1:55:06.560 --> 1:55:08.200 and takes part in the process. 1:55:08.840 --> 1:55:12.120 Hell yeah, So speaking of everyone coming together and helping 1:55:12.120 --> 1:55:14.600 to work for the process, if people want to help 1:55:14.640 --> 1:55:15.560 you all, what can they do. 1:55:16.400 --> 1:55:20.640 We are looking actually at a bit of a financial 1:55:20.840 --> 1:55:24.840 struggle right now. The biggest thing is that we don't 1:55:24.840 --> 1:55:27.360 have enough the funds at the moment to go on strike, 1:55:27.520 --> 1:55:31.360 not for any significant duration at least. Yeah, we have 1:55:31.440 --> 1:55:33.640 a go fundme Mojie Workers United. 1:55:33.800 --> 1:55:35.560 Yeah, we will put that in the description. 1:55:36.320 --> 1:55:39.080 The other thing is that we are looking for a 1:55:39.120 --> 1:55:42.640 lot of social media support. Actually, Mushi is a very 1:55:42.680 --> 1:55:45.720 media driven company and we are trying to set up 1:55:45.720 --> 1:55:49.520 an Instagram account that has a lot of visibility. You 1:55:49.560 --> 1:55:53.760 can follow us also Moodie Workers United on Instagram. And 1:55:54.160 --> 1:55:57.560 it seems like people have been sharing our articles and 1:55:58.080 --> 1:56:01.680 across the internet, both the WLP article about us and 1:56:01.720 --> 1:56:05.760 then now you're interviewing us, which is an enormous help 1:56:05.840 --> 1:56:07.440 to trust. 1:56:07.520 --> 1:56:07.720 Mia. 1:56:07.800 --> 1:56:09.720 Thank you. We super appreciate it. 1:56:09.800 --> 1:56:11.960 Yeah, thank you so much, of course. 1:56:12.120 --> 1:56:12.440 Happy. 1:56:13.200 --> 1:56:15.680 I don't know if you have anything to add to that, Renee. 1:56:15.680 --> 1:56:19.760 Yeah, just the Instagram. We have lots of very talented 1:56:19.840 --> 1:56:26.080 artists working Muji like everyone. It's great graphic designers, a 1:56:26.120 --> 1:56:30.840 lot of just very fun and cool people. So yeah, 1:56:31.400 --> 1:56:34.360 I'm sure that will be expressed in our future social 1:56:34.400 --> 1:56:37.000 media posts. Yeah. 1:56:37.120 --> 1:56:38.920 Hell yeah, what we'll link that description too. 1:56:39.280 --> 1:56:40.240 Awesome, thank you Mia. 1:56:40.960 --> 1:56:41.160 Yeah. 1:56:41.280 --> 1:56:44.080 On a one final thing, you want to plug direct action? 1:56:44.960 --> 1:56:45.640 Yes, I do. 1:56:46.040 --> 1:56:46.160 So. 1:56:47.400 --> 1:56:49.520 We've had We've spent a lot of time talking about 1:56:49.560 --> 1:56:52.800 the legal side of unionization because our union is currently 1:56:53.000 --> 1:56:57.200 seeking federal recognition with the NLRB. I want to emphasize 1:56:57.240 --> 1:57:00.720 that this is not the end of unions. The goal 1:57:00.800 --> 1:57:03.600 is not a contract. The goal is to use direct 1:57:03.640 --> 1:57:05.920 action to enact the changes that you want to see 1:57:05.920 --> 1:57:09.520 in your workplace. For what are probably obvious reasons, I 1:57:09.520 --> 1:57:11.960 don't want to talk about specifically stuff that we have 1:57:12.080 --> 1:57:14.520 planned or maybe not even stuff that we've done in 1:57:14.560 --> 1:57:17.040 the past. But for example, one thing that I can 1:57:17.160 --> 1:57:19.520 talk about is that we have an ice response plan, 1:57:19.800 --> 1:57:21.560 Like what do we do if I shows up at 1:57:21.600 --> 1:57:25.160 a workplace and tries to tries to raid us. We 1:57:25.240 --> 1:57:28.640 have a plan for that. And I obviously don't want 1:57:28.640 --> 1:57:30.320 to go further into detail about that, but that is 1:57:30.360 --> 1:57:32.480 something that we did as an example of a direct action. 1:57:33.160 --> 1:57:36.360 There's also other stuff. There's lots of historical examples of 1:57:36.440 --> 1:57:41.400 workers getting gains in their workplace. You have examples of 1:57:41.680 --> 1:57:44.400 stuff like just a simple march on the boss has 1:57:44.520 --> 1:57:48.560 historically worked to sway the boss even without necessarily a 1:57:48.720 --> 1:57:52.400 change in the contract. Or you can have stuff that's 1:57:52.440 --> 1:57:55.960 all very legal on above board obviously, of people like 1:57:56.600 --> 1:57:59.600 just agreeing to not be as friendly with their boss 1:58:00.040 --> 1:58:02.800 at work and an emotionally sway their boss that way, 1:58:03.200 --> 1:58:05.760 or having smaller outside of work actions where people are 1:58:05.760 --> 1:58:08.960 helping each other out and having a workplace mutual aid project, 1:58:09.360 --> 1:58:12.600 or even something as simple as implementing like a workplace 1:58:12.640 --> 1:58:15.280 fitness plan. That's something that we've discussed a couple of 1:58:15.280 --> 1:58:18.560 times at meetings, very loosely, like just going on hikes together, 1:58:18.760 --> 1:58:21.680 or having like the community sports and stuff just to 1:58:21.760 --> 1:58:24.040 keep each other in shape and keep our communities healthy. 1:58:24.680 --> 1:58:27.720 All of this stuff is stuff that exists beyond the contract. 1:58:28.040 --> 1:58:30.800 We're currently emphasizing the contract because that's what we are 1:58:31.000 --> 1:58:34.400 at the moment seeking, because the contract helps this feel 1:58:34.400 --> 1:58:36.760 more real for people who aren't quite on board with 1:58:36.800 --> 1:58:41.840 the idea of humanization yet. But unionization at a workplace 1:58:42.560 --> 1:58:48.040 gets you much more than just a better contract with 1:58:48.120 --> 1:58:51.600 your employer. And you can enact changes at your workplace 1:58:51.720 --> 1:58:56.080 faster if you work together with your coworkers and organize 1:58:56.080 --> 1:58:59.960 your coworkers. Hell yeah, anything to add renee. 1:59:00.120 --> 1:59:05.160 And the union is very aware, you know, regarding their 1:59:05.840 --> 1:59:11.240 respective capacities to help what they can, you know, and 1:59:11.320 --> 1:59:16.400 cannot do their limits. And I think just after you know, 1:59:16.640 --> 1:59:21.480 working together enough, everything marries in a very effective way. 1:59:21.840 --> 1:59:25.760 And and yeah, even just like like all of these 1:59:26.000 --> 1:59:28.640 sort of direct actions that that Luna was naming are 1:59:29.760 --> 1:59:33.200 just came out of our meetings, just ideas that people 1:59:33.240 --> 1:59:36.440 think might be fun to do, or or you know, 1:59:36.640 --> 1:59:39.600 people sharing their hobbies and and want to share them 1:59:39.640 --> 1:59:44.000 with other people. Yeah, and so yeah, it really is 1:59:44.080 --> 1:59:48.080 just sort of a fun hangout. I don't want to 1:59:48.080 --> 1:59:52.640 trivialize it. But but it's like, you know, extreme hang 1:59:52.800 --> 1:59:53.360 hanging out. 1:59:54.880 --> 1:59:58.360 It's well, yeah, I think it touches on something that's 1:59:58.800 --> 2:00:01.560 really important about all of this, which is, you know, 2:00:01.640 --> 2:00:04.080 people will in the abstract talk about unions as like 2:00:04.120 --> 2:00:09.040 social institutions, but like what that actually means is this, Like, yeah, 2:00:09.080 --> 2:00:11.520 it's a place where you and your friends and the 2:00:11.560 --> 2:00:15.800 people you work with go and do stuff together. And 2:00:16.640 --> 2:00:18.760 you know, I guess, I guess I want to wrap 2:00:18.880 --> 2:00:21.520 up on like, if you want a way out of 2:00:21.560 --> 2:00:26.200 the stultifying boredom and isolation and crushing poverty of the 2:00:26.280 --> 2:00:31.840 Wadern capitalist experience, you too can't create You can create 2:00:31.880 --> 2:00:35.400 a union and resist all of those things simultaneously. 2:00:35.960 --> 2:00:52.000 Yeah, yeah, welcome to It could happen here a show 2:00:52.000 --> 2:00:55.360 about things falling apart, the thing falling apart the past 2:00:55.360 --> 2:00:59.000 few years, the Democratic Party that's foot we're going to 2:00:59.040 --> 2:01:03.960 be talking about to I am joined by Sophie Ray Lichterman. 2:01:05.000 --> 2:01:09.320 Hello, Hi, I'm not excited about this. 2:01:09.320 --> 2:01:11.880 This is great. Last time we were on an episode together, 2:01:12.000 --> 2:01:14.600 we were talking about our two favorite Democrats, Bill and 2:01:14.680 --> 2:01:16.280 Hillary Clinton. Ah. 2:01:16.400 --> 2:01:19.480 Yes, they gave me COVID at the DNC. I'll never 2:01:19.560 --> 2:01:21.160 forgive them. 2:01:20.600 --> 2:01:23.360 Not talking about them today, but we are talking about 2:01:23.520 --> 2:01:26.160 the DNC. The other DNC, the one who puts on 2:01:26.200 --> 2:01:29.640 the DNC, the Democratic National Committee. So we're gonna be 2:01:29.640 --> 2:01:35.320 talking about the DNC autopsy. Oh boy. First, some background. Yes, 2:01:35.960 --> 2:01:39.600 after Democrats lost the House, the Senate, and the presidency 2:01:39.720 --> 2:01:43.280 in twenty twenty four, if I'm reading that correctly, including 2:01:43.320 --> 2:01:45.480 losing the popular vote, something that has not happened in 2:01:45.560 --> 2:01:50.040 twenty years. The Democratic National Committee, the DNC, wondered why 2:01:50.080 --> 2:01:53.280 did that happen? So the DNC commission to report on 2:01:53.640 --> 2:01:56.480 what happened with the twenty twenty four election, and this 2:01:56.600 --> 2:01:59.520 report came to be known as the twenty twenty four Autopsy. 2:02:00.280 --> 2:02:04.240 The newly elected DNC chair Ken Martin pledged to make 2:02:04.320 --> 2:02:09.400 the upcoming report public, announcing after his chair election quote, 2:02:09.800 --> 2:02:12.440 there has to be some lessons that we glean on 2:02:12.600 --> 2:02:16.680 that so we can operationalize it, not just here in DC, 2:02:16.960 --> 2:02:20.240 but through all the fifty seven state parties. We have 2:02:20.320 --> 2:02:23.760 to look backwards and look forward at the same time. 2:02:24.960 --> 2:02:28.080 The twenty twenty four election autopsy was commissioned in early 2:02:28.160 --> 2:02:30.760 twenty twenty five and was supposed to come out later 2:02:30.840 --> 2:02:34.160 that spring, but got pushed back to the end of summer, 2:02:34.320 --> 2:02:38.040 and then the fall, and finally, in December of twenty 2:02:38.040 --> 2:02:42.000 twenty five, Ken Martin announced that the DNC would not 2:02:42.160 --> 2:02:46.280 in fact be releasing the autopsy report. In Martin's brief 2:02:46.280 --> 2:02:50.280 statement explaining or rather not explaining why he's backpedaling on 2:02:50.320 --> 2:02:52.720 his promise to make the report public, he claimed that 2:02:52.760 --> 2:02:56.680 the committee is quote already putting our learnings into motion. 2:02:57.240 --> 2:03:00.400 Who votes Ken martin In to be the chair because 2:03:00.440 --> 2:03:05.440 I know his careerer is basically Minnesota guy, yes in 2:03:05.480 --> 2:03:10.200 turning government jobs, vice president chair, And then. 2:03:10.400 --> 2:03:15.520 Basically around four hundred members of state party chapters are 2:03:15.680 --> 2:03:20.080 chosen to be members of the Democratic National Committee, who 2:03:20.120 --> 2:03:23.800 then in turn vote on national party leadership and decide 2:03:23.800 --> 2:03:27.200 how primaries operate, though if a sitting president is a Democrat, 2:03:27.640 --> 2:03:31.600 the president can effectively choose the chair. Sn End reported 2:03:31.800 --> 2:03:35.680 that DNC officials had concerns that the report would quote 2:03:36.080 --> 2:03:40.000 inflame ongoing tensions within the party at a time they 2:03:40.000 --> 2:03:44.640 felt they had begun to generate winning momentum quote, and 2:03:45.000 --> 2:03:48.000 the committee officials decided that it would be a quote 2:03:48.040 --> 2:03:51.040 unquote strategic failure on the part of the DNC to 2:03:51.200 --> 2:03:55.480 publicly look backward. That was their reasons for not releasing 2:03:55.520 --> 2:03:58.160 the report. We're already winning elections in twenty twenty five, 2:03:58.560 --> 2:04:00.680 so there's actually no point in just looking back at 2:04:00.720 --> 2:04:03.600 why we lost to twenty twenty four. And this was 2:04:03.600 --> 2:04:06.160 alluded to in Ken Martin's statement announcing that he would 2:04:06.160 --> 2:04:09.160 not be releasing the report. Quote, we are aligned on 2:04:09.200 --> 2:04:12.320 what's important, and that's learning from the past and winning 2:04:12.400 --> 2:04:16.000 the future. Here's our north star. Does this help us win? 2:04:16.440 --> 2:04:19.160 If the answer is no, it's a distraction from the 2:04:19.240 --> 2:04:22.720 core mission. So the report would just be a distraction 2:04:22.920 --> 2:04:26.080 from letting us currently win going forward. 2:04:26.480 --> 2:04:30.840 For the DNC chair, that logic is ridiculous. 2:04:31.320 --> 2:04:34.480 No, because that's not the real reason why the report 2:04:34.560 --> 2:04:37.600 wasn't released. We will get to why the report wasn't 2:04:38.360 --> 2:04:39.600 okay very soon. 2:04:39.840 --> 2:04:44.560 That sounds like a majorly half assed reason, So okay, 2:04:45.000 --> 2:04:45.920 say more, say more. 2:04:45.960 --> 2:04:46.480 I'm listening. 2:04:46.960 --> 2:04:50.400 As the public release of the autopsy was continuously delayed 2:04:50.400 --> 2:04:52.880 in twenty twenty five and then just eventually canceled, the 2:04:52.920 --> 2:04:56.440 speculation about the contents of the report grew that the 2:04:56.680 --> 2:05:00.520 DNC must be hiding the report because it's f findings 2:05:00.560 --> 2:05:03.000 on why the Dems lost so bad in twenty twenty 2:05:03.000 --> 2:05:06.360 four must run contrary to the interests of party elites. 2:05:07.240 --> 2:05:09.720 So by burying the report, the DNC must be trying 2:05:09.760 --> 2:05:13.959 to protect the future political prospects of Kamala Harris, obscure 2:05:14.000 --> 2:05:17.160 the misuse of massive funds donated to the DNC and 2:05:17.280 --> 2:05:22.680 election campaigns. Or the report must actually definitively prove the 2:05:22.720 --> 2:05:26.160 Bidenhairs administration's failure to act on the genocide of Palestinians 2:05:26.200 --> 2:05:28.680 while aiding in a betting Israel must have played a 2:05:28.720 --> 2:05:33.520 significant factor in the election, possibly the determining factor. So 2:05:33.680 --> 2:05:38.080 if the report found such things, then the DNC might 2:05:38.120 --> 2:05:41.560 want to suppress the report to not have that information 2:05:41.680 --> 2:05:46.360 be public. But now we know that's not the reason 2:05:46.680 --> 2:05:51.160 the report was not released. The autopsy finding that the 2:05:51.200 --> 2:05:54.120 Democrats pro Israel position cost in the election was not 2:05:54.160 --> 2:05:57.040 the reason the report was buried, because last month the 2:05:57.160 --> 2:06:01.880 DNZ begrudgingly released and incomplete version of the election autopsy, 2:06:02.360 --> 2:06:05.440 which actually does not contain a single mention of Israel, 2:06:05.680 --> 2:06:09.880 Palestine or Gaza. It is not discussed in any way 2:06:09.960 --> 2:06:12.760 in a one hundred and ninety two page report. 2:06:13.240 --> 2:06:16.400 And what is in this report huh. 2:06:16.600 --> 2:06:21.000 We will also be getting into what's in the report. Okay, Yeah, 2:06:21.080 --> 2:06:25.960 a lot of bad statistics, for one, unsourced graphs and 2:06:26.440 --> 2:06:30.640 discussions on whether you should spend more money on digital 2:06:30.680 --> 2:06:33.960 ads or TV ads is really really the bulk of 2:06:34.000 --> 2:06:38.560 the report, honestly. But before we get more into the 2:06:38.640 --> 2:06:43.560 report's findings, let's discuss the circumstances that led to the 2:06:43.640 --> 2:06:47.360 publishing of the unfinished autopsy and nearly a year after 2:06:47.400 --> 2:06:50.280 the finished version was supposed to come out. So this 2:06:50.320 --> 2:06:53.920 autopsy was authored by a guy named Paul Rivieria. There's 2:06:54.000 --> 2:06:57.960 a long time Democratic strategist and personal friend of DNC 2:06:58.160 --> 2:07:02.879 chair Ken Martin. Vira has not worked on a presidential 2:07:02.920 --> 2:07:04.720 campaign since two thousand and four. 2:07:05.080 --> 2:07:05.680 Oh wow. 2:07:05.960 --> 2:07:09.280 And despite being the sole person like tasked with running 2:07:09.280 --> 2:07:12.360 the report, and it's unclear how many people actually worked 2:07:12.400 --> 2:07:14.120 on it, but it was led by Riviera and it 2:07:14.120 --> 2:07:17.160 seems to be mostly be done by him. And despite that, 2:07:17.440 --> 2:07:20.720 Riviera only worked on it haart time while managing other 2:07:20.800 --> 2:07:24.640 contracts with sen and reporting that Riviera would say that 2:07:24.720 --> 2:07:29.080 he would only be available to conduct autopsy interviews before 2:07:29.440 --> 2:07:34.880 nine am or after seven pm or on weekends. That's 2:07:34.920 --> 2:07:38.520 when he conducted interviews for the report. Was only before 2:07:38.760 --> 2:07:41.640 nine am in the morning or after seven pm in 2:07:41.680 --> 2:07:44.960 the evening on week days and then also weekends. 2:07:45.480 --> 2:07:47.240 Was this weird or doing? What was his problem? 2:07:48.120 --> 2:07:52.880 Not much? Yeah? Apparently not much, sir, because yeah, this 2:07:52.960 --> 2:07:58.800 report was like delayed almost a full year. Yeah seesh. Now, 2:07:58.920 --> 2:08:03.960 only after his initial Spring twenty twenty five deadline did 2:08:04.040 --> 2:08:07.640 Rivera actually reach out to state party chairs in battleground 2:08:07.640 --> 2:08:11.240 states to interview them for the report, and he did 2:08:11.240 --> 2:08:17.440 not contact like T. Harris campaign staff until September, and 2:08:17.480 --> 2:08:20.680 many were not even asked to be interviewed. Portions of 2:08:20.720 --> 2:08:25.839 the autopsy were first revealed at a DNC National Finance 2:08:25.920 --> 2:08:30.680 Committee retreat for top donors held at a hotel in Millburg, Virginia, 2:08:30.760 --> 2:08:35.440 last October Percy and n At the donor retreat, Riviera 2:08:35.520 --> 2:08:39.760 himself gave a quote our long presentation with slides in 2:08:39.840 --> 2:08:44.600 part drawn directly from the report, in part via running 2:08:44.640 --> 2:08:49.600 his findings through an AI engine. Unquote, there was AI 2:08:49.720 --> 2:08:53.920 generated slides. He ran his report findings through an AI engine, 2:08:53.960 --> 2:08:57.240 according to CNN, which also generated slides, and that was 2:08:57.280 --> 2:09:01.080 what his presentation on the report at the donor retreat 2:09:02.120 --> 2:09:07.160 was based on. Was that the AI's regurgitation of report findings. 2:09:07.640 --> 2:09:08.960 Hold on, Hold on a second. 2:09:09.040 --> 2:09:12.080 So he's not willing to do work after nine am 2:09:12.600 --> 2:09:13.760 or after seven pm? 2:09:13.920 --> 2:09:15.160 Conduct please in that time. 2:09:15.240 --> 2:09:16.840 No, can't do any of that time. 2:09:16.840 --> 2:09:21.680 But yet he's just like using AI Yeah, great, DNC, 2:09:21.960 --> 2:09:23.160 feeling really hopeful. 2:09:23.320 --> 2:09:25.400 Continue, what did CNN find? 2:09:26.080 --> 2:09:29.400 So One of the slides that Riviera presented at this 2:09:29.600 --> 2:09:33.880 at this donor retreat attract the candidate's quote unquote area 2:09:33.960 --> 2:09:38.120 of focus by quote unquote content slash theme see an 2:09:38.160 --> 2:09:42.760 end notes quote. Riviera used an unclear methodology for the breakdown, 2:09:43.080 --> 2:09:47.760 assigning percentages to ten categories of content or theme. For Trump, Harris, 2:09:47.800 --> 2:09:51.840 and their running mates. The percentages in every column one 2:09:51.840 --> 2:09:55.520 for each candidate added up to well over one hundred percent. 2:09:57.440 --> 2:09:59.320 What he was trying to do here is like measure 2:09:59.440 --> 2:10:02.480 campaign themes, like you know, how much Trump focused on 2:10:02.520 --> 2:10:05.040 immigration compared to Harris. Right, So he had these like 2:10:05.080 --> 2:10:07.400 ten categories of like what the campaigns were focused on. 2:10:08.080 --> 2:10:11.080 But the percentages did not actually add up to one 2:10:11.160 --> 2:10:11.839 hundred percent. 2:10:12.040 --> 2:10:12.880 Of course they didn't. 2:10:13.040 --> 2:10:15.080 So he's just like making this stuff up, right, like 2:10:15.120 --> 2:10:18.080 it's it's again. They know. There's like an unclear methodology 2:10:18.120 --> 2:10:20.280 for the breakdown the fact these add up to over 2:10:20.280 --> 2:10:22.560 one hundred percent, Like, you cannot trust the legitimacy of 2:10:22.560 --> 2:10:26.080 any of this research now, So, after parts of the 2:10:26.080 --> 2:10:29.400 presentation were leaked to CNN, Scenan then obtained even more 2:10:29.440 --> 2:10:33.640 information about the contents of the shelved autopsy. Before publishing 2:10:33.640 --> 2:10:37.480 their findings, Scenan presented the DNC with what they knew 2:10:37.520 --> 2:10:41.000 about the report, prompting the DNC to just release the 2:10:41.000 --> 2:10:44.880 full report as submitted by Paul Riveria. And around this time, 2:10:44.960 --> 2:10:48.280 donors were also threatening to withhold funds for not publishing 2:10:48.320 --> 2:10:52.720 the report, so that probably also contributed. One of CNN's 2:10:52.840 --> 2:10:57.720 sources said that after the autopsy was published, Ken Martin 2:10:57.880 --> 2:11:02.080 informed DNC staff that Paul Via was no longer associated 2:11:02.160 --> 2:11:03.120 with the committee. 2:11:03.640 --> 2:11:05.879 These people, these fucking people. 2:11:06.760 --> 2:11:10.080 I mean, I did not read the entire report intentionally 2:11:10.120 --> 2:11:11.840 so that you could tell me about it. But the 2:11:11.920 --> 2:11:15.360 highlights that have been spread across the internet is did 2:11:15.360 --> 2:11:19.240 not mention Gaza, did not mention Joe Biden's age, and 2:11:19.320 --> 2:11:23.200 did not mention when Joe Biden dropped out late effectively. 2:11:23.240 --> 2:11:25.240 So well, we'll get into some of some of those 2:11:25.320 --> 2:11:27.080 in a little bit more detail. I think. One of 2:11:27.160 --> 2:11:29.840 the most interesting parts about the DNC's publishing of the 2:11:29.920 --> 2:11:33.720 unfinished report is that the published version of the autopsy 2:11:34.160 --> 2:11:39.000 contains annotations and corrections marked and read that the DNC 2:11:39.200 --> 2:11:43.600 added to the copy of the report as submitted by Riviera, 2:11:43.920 --> 2:11:47.520 and these were added for its public release. Okay, At 2:11:47.560 --> 2:11:49.800 the top of every single page, all one hundred and 2:11:49.840 --> 2:11:54.680 ninety two pages, reads a disclaimer quote disclaimer. This document 2:11:54.760 --> 2:11:57.520 reflects the views of the author, not the DNC. The 2:11:57.600 --> 2:12:01.320 DNC was not provided with the underlying source, interviews, or 2:12:01.360 --> 2:12:05.160 supporting data for many of the assertions contained herein, and 2:12:05.240 --> 2:12:10.680 therefore cannot independently verify the claims presented unquote that is 2:12:10.720 --> 2:12:13.920 in read at the top of every single page. Ken 2:12:13.960 --> 2:12:17.760 Martin did issue a statement when the autopsy was published, 2:12:18.200 --> 2:12:21.920 reading quote. When I was elected DNC chair, I commissioned 2:12:21.920 --> 2:12:24.440 in after action review of the twenty twenty four election 2:12:24.880 --> 2:12:27.720 that I wanted to be honest and transparent and with 2:12:27.880 --> 2:12:31.120 actionable and specific takeaways for the future of the Democratic Party. 2:12:31.480 --> 2:12:34.640 When I received the report late last year, it wasn't 2:12:34.680 --> 2:12:38.280 ready for prime time, not even close, and because no 2:12:38.400 --> 2:12:41.840 source material was provided, it would have meant starting over 2:12:42.400 --> 2:12:44.720 I could not in good faith put the DNC's stamp 2:12:44.760 --> 2:12:48.600 of approval on the report that was produced after last 2:12:48.640 --> 2:12:52.400 November's massive Democratic wins. I didn't want to create a distraction, 2:12:53.000 --> 2:12:55.200 but by not putting the report out, I ended up 2:12:55.240 --> 2:12:58.480 creating an even bigger distraction. For that, I sincerely apologize 2:12:58.520 --> 2:13:01.040 for full transparency. I am release sing the report as 2:13:01.080 --> 2:13:05.200 we received it in its entirety, unedited and unabridged. It 2:13:05.240 --> 2:13:08.080 does not meet my standards and it won't meet your standards. 2:13:08.360 --> 2:13:10.840 But I'm doing this because people need to be able 2:13:10.880 --> 2:13:14.560 to trust the Democratic Party and trust our word unquote. 2:13:15.360 --> 2:13:19.280 I don't know, man, that doesn't really sound very trustworthy. Brouh, 2:13:19.440 --> 2:13:20.280 sounds pretty bad. 2:13:20.520 --> 2:13:22.720 Sounds pretty bad. Here's a half asked report. 2:13:23.400 --> 2:13:27.280 It's not very good, and I've delayed it for over 2:13:27.320 --> 2:13:29.000 a year, but yeah, I. 2:13:29.640 --> 2:13:32.320 Guess here it is. No, it doesn't include any of 2:13:32.360 --> 2:13:34.320 the big issue things. Enjoy. 2:13:34.920 --> 2:13:38.080 It's a stunning sequence of events that kind of highlights 2:13:38.120 --> 2:13:40.520 all of the issues that everyone already has with it 2:13:40.520 --> 2:13:43.880 with the Democratic Party. Like the guy who was chosen 2:13:43.960 --> 2:13:47.200 to do the autopsy just happens to be a personal 2:13:47.280 --> 2:13:51.160 friend of the DNC chair, and said friend then fails 2:13:51.200 --> 2:13:55.080 to interrogate the institutional bias of the party. It is 2:13:55.120 --> 2:13:58.720 such a condensed, condensed, little version of why the party 2:13:58.840 --> 2:14:01.600 has had so many, so many troubles, and the report 2:14:01.600 --> 2:14:04.240 has published seems unwilling to actually be able to learn 2:14:04.280 --> 2:14:07.280 from successes that have been happening since the twenty twenty 2:14:07.320 --> 2:14:11.920 four election. Effectively, what the support actually is is a 2:14:12.120 --> 2:14:17.480 poorly sourced opinion piece that's dressed up as an election autopsy. 2:14:18.200 --> 2:14:22.640 It misspells names, it has typos, factual and statistical errors, 2:14:22.680 --> 2:14:27.200 and unsourced claims. Multiple key sections are left completely blank 2:14:27.560 --> 2:14:31.320 because Riviera never submitted them. The report is less interested 2:14:31.400 --> 2:14:35.640 in collecting data and interviews to inform analysis, but rather 2:14:35.800 --> 2:14:38.520 starts with certain assumptions and then cherry picks data to 2:14:38.520 --> 2:14:42.040 support this assumptions. But it doesn't even do that well 2:14:42.280 --> 2:14:46.080 because the included data is often inaccurate, and at times 2:14:46.120 --> 2:14:50.760 the analysis contradicts itself. Jesus Christ, a state party chair, 2:14:50.920 --> 2:14:54.920 told CNN quote it was very clear that it felt 2:14:54.960 --> 2:14:57.600 like Ken's theory of the case for the future of 2:14:57.640 --> 2:15:00.680 the party through the lens of twenty twenty four as 2:15:00.720 --> 2:15:04.760 opposed to a quote unquote autopsy, and after reading the report, 2:15:05.080 --> 2:15:08.040 I agree this is very much a report that's designed 2:15:08.040 --> 2:15:11.320 to fit in with what Ken Martin wants the message 2:15:11.520 --> 2:15:15.160 of the last election to be, and it tries to 2:15:15.200 --> 2:15:20.400 squeeze that into these like very rough shape of like 2:15:20.520 --> 2:15:24.200 an after election report, but it's really not. 2:15:24.920 --> 2:15:28.160 It's just like reeks of like lazy AI work. 2:15:28.400 --> 2:15:29.240 But all the like. 2:15:29.320 --> 2:15:32.360 Left out sections that the things that don't add up, 2:15:32.800 --> 2:15:34.640 the misspellings. 2:15:34.000 --> 2:15:39.440 Specifically the statistical and like factual errors, yeah, are really confusing, 2:15:39.440 --> 2:15:42.120 and it feels like someone's getting if not the actual writing, 2:15:42.200 --> 2:15:44.560 but it feels like the research was like AI assistant 2:15:44.600 --> 2:15:46.200 and in the way that you know AIS will shoot 2:15:46.200 --> 2:15:49.360 out different answers for the same question. Sure, so it 2:15:49.680 --> 2:15:52.800 feels like that in a few areas, and like like 2:15:52.840 --> 2:15:55.120 you've already mentioned, right, the report never brings up Biden's 2:15:55.160 --> 2:15:58.480 age or mental state as a factor contributing to the election. 2:15:58.840 --> 2:16:03.400 And inasmuch as the criticizes Biden, it critiques the Biden 2:16:03.440 --> 2:16:08.840 administration's failure to adequately prepare Harris to be a viable candidate. 2:16:09.320 --> 2:16:11.680 Does it discuss the debate? 2:16:12.120 --> 2:16:15.280 No, it doesn't bring up the debate where now we 2:16:15.360 --> 2:16:18.240 know that like from an interview from doctor Joe Biden 2:16:18.600 --> 2:16:21.800 from a few weeks ago that she legitimately thought that 2:16:21.880 --> 2:16:24.840 Joe was having a stroke on stage during that debate 2:16:24.880 --> 2:16:26.080 with Donald Trump. 2:16:26.160 --> 2:16:27.960 Even though she took him on to a different stage 2:16:27.960 --> 2:16:30.240 afterwards to tell him how good he did. And then 2:16:30.320 --> 2:16:34.400 they went to a waffle house. I mean, the things 2:16:34.520 --> 2:16:39.039 your due. You after you believe your husband has had 2:16:39.040 --> 2:16:39.800 a stroke. 2:16:39.680 --> 2:16:42.200 When shit has hit the fan, Garrett, you go to 2:16:42.320 --> 2:16:43.080 waffle house. 2:16:43.160 --> 2:16:45.640 Maybe maybe the waffle house actually is the move. 2:16:46.160 --> 2:16:48.640 I'm saying the waffle house is the least shocking of 2:16:48.680 --> 2:16:49.800 the entire situation. 2:16:50.560 --> 2:16:52.760 But that's not mentioned in there at all. 2:16:53.480 --> 2:16:57.400 No, it says, quote, the White House did not effectively 2:16:57.480 --> 2:17:00.480 support Vice President Harris over three and a half years 2:17:00.680 --> 2:17:05.800 to improve her standing before the candidates switch unquote. That's 2:17:05.879 --> 2:17:09.440 all it says about about switching from Biden to Harris. 2:17:09.720 --> 2:17:10.800 That's all it says. 2:17:11.240 --> 2:17:14.200 I don't I don't disagree with that statement, because you 2:17:14.240 --> 2:17:17.040 know the amount of people that we spoke to when 2:17:17.080 --> 2:17:19.720 we went to both political conventions. One of the common 2:17:19.760 --> 2:17:23.160 things that they said about Kamala Harris is like how 2:17:23.520 --> 2:17:26.039 ineffective she spent and how they don't use her and 2:17:26.080 --> 2:17:28.360 how can we trust her when they don't even trust 2:17:28.400 --> 2:17:31.160 her to do basic things for the administration, which was 2:17:31.360 --> 2:17:34.920 one of the main Republican talking points about her, is 2:17:34.959 --> 2:17:39.039 like she has no skills, which is not true, but 2:17:39.480 --> 2:17:43.360 that was a position that was against her. Is not 2:17:43.560 --> 2:17:47.199 utilizing her enough? And then you know they're like, bibbity 2:17:47.280 --> 2:17:51.400 bobby boo, she's your candidate without a primary. Do they 2:17:51.440 --> 2:17:53.720 mention anything about their not being a primary? 2:17:54.160 --> 2:17:55.000 No, okay. 2:17:55.840 --> 2:17:59.240 The port never interrogets her, considers Biden's decision to run 2:17:59.280 --> 2:18:02.320 for reelection, or lay blame on those who encouraged and 2:18:02.400 --> 2:18:05.280 enabled that decision, nor does it identify the lack of 2:18:05.280 --> 2:18:08.640 a legitimate primary as a contributing factor leading to the 2:18:08.640 --> 2:18:10.199 results of the twenty twenty four election. 2:18:10.840 --> 2:18:12.119 We're going to take a quick. 2:18:11.920 --> 2:18:16.879 Break while I have, you know, an attack of my mind, 2:18:18.640 --> 2:18:38.560 your ads. 2:18:30.360 --> 2:18:31.720 And we're bad. 2:18:35.320 --> 2:18:41.040 Let's now pivot to how the report describes its own 2:18:41.280 --> 2:18:45.080 research methodology. This is quoting from the start of the 2:18:45.120 --> 2:18:49.080 autopsy quote. The report analyzes a range of publicly and 2:18:49.120 --> 2:18:53.040 commercially available data to identify actual investments, actions, and eventual 2:18:53.120 --> 2:18:57.480 voter behavior. The annalysis also includes qualitative data obtained in 2:18:57.520 --> 2:19:00.200 the form of in person and virtual interviews with more 2:19:00.240 --> 2:19:04.480 than three hundred organizations and individuals. After this sentence, the 2:19:04.600 --> 2:19:09.040 DNC has highlighted and annotated a little note that reads, 2:19:09.840 --> 2:19:13.480 no source material or data provided. Unsourced claims cannot be 2:19:13.560 --> 2:19:17.879 independently verified. So despite claiming that three hundred people or 2:19:17.959 --> 2:19:22.320 organizations were interviewed, which may be true, the report never 2:19:22.360 --> 2:19:26.879 says who these people are, nor does it allude to 2:19:26.879 --> 2:19:28.000 their relevant expertise. 2:19:28.800 --> 2:19:30.200 This is just an obed. 2:19:31.120 --> 2:19:34.200 A source that the DNC told CNN that Riviera did 2:19:34.200 --> 2:19:36.800 not even provide a list of names of the people 2:19:36.800 --> 2:19:39.920 he spoke to to the DNC, nor did he submit 2:19:40.320 --> 2:19:44.360 interview notes or recording. So there's no record that we 2:19:44.560 --> 2:19:47.760 have of like who these people are or why they 2:19:47.760 --> 2:19:51.000 were interviewed or what they actually said. And it's not 2:19:51.040 --> 2:19:54.280 like he's like quoting from people like with quotation marks. 2:19:54.320 --> 2:19:59.279 It's like regurgitating maybe portions of interviews into different text. 2:20:00.280 --> 2:20:02.879 Rivera also failed to provide data that he said was 2:20:02.920 --> 2:20:07.040 given to him by senior campaign leadership that he says 2:20:07.200 --> 2:20:10.400 is influencing the report, but we don't see it, and 2:20:10.440 --> 2:20:11.959 he did not provide it to the DNC, so like 2:20:12.040 --> 2:20:16.080 they don't know. It's just some guy saying trust me, bro, 2:20:16.440 --> 2:20:19.959 that's what it sounds like. So after the introduction to 2:20:20.000 --> 2:20:24.440 the report is a section called the executive Summary. This 2:20:24.520 --> 2:20:26.760 section was not provided by the author. This section is 2:20:26.760 --> 2:20:27.520 completely missing. 2:20:27.720 --> 2:20:28.000 Great. 2:20:29.080 --> 2:20:33.120 After the missing executive summary section, the report moves on 2:20:33.320 --> 2:20:38.520 to the electoral landscape, which has just very basic stuff. Quote. 2:20:39.120 --> 2:20:41.520 Millions of Americans are suffering from poor access to health care, 2:20:41.600 --> 2:20:44.879 manufacturing of job losses, and failing infrastructure, yet continued to 2:20:44.920 --> 2:20:47.320 be persuaded to vote against their best interests because they 2:20:47.360 --> 2:20:49.640 do not see themselves reflected in the America of the 2:20:49.680 --> 2:20:54.720 Democratic Party unquote. Just really basic stuff, very like average 2:20:55.280 --> 2:20:58.199 a ten year old can say this. Next, the report 2:20:58.240 --> 2:21:01.400 talks about how the Democratic part already rebuilt itself in 2:21:01.440 --> 2:21:05.320 the nineties, how after three consecutive presidential losses, the Democrats 2:21:05.360 --> 2:21:08.000 embraced a new strategy which got Clinton elected in nineteen 2:21:08.080 --> 2:21:10.640 ninety two, and we all know how well that went. 2:21:11.920 --> 2:21:16.600 Then there's seven pages of summarizing party history from two 2:21:16.640 --> 2:21:19.160 thousand and eight to twenty twenty four. I don't know 2:21:19.200 --> 2:21:22.840 if he was getting paid by the word, but that's just, 2:21:22.920 --> 2:21:24.800 like said, it's just seven pages that just don't need 2:21:24.840 --> 2:21:28.520 to be there. And then the report reads quote, we 2:21:28.600 --> 2:21:31.560 must be careful to draw the right lessons from this 2:21:31.680 --> 2:21:35.440 experience and not miss opportunities to identify and build upon 2:21:35.520 --> 2:21:37.800 some of the positives of the twenty twenty four cycle. 2:21:38.400 --> 2:21:41.720 We must acknowledge how close the margins actually were. The 2:21:41.760 --> 2:21:44.920 report then goes on to misstate how close the margins were, 2:21:45.800 --> 2:21:48.480 but on the other hand, it goes on to say 2:21:48.520 --> 2:21:51.520 that in the past sixteen years quote, Democrats have lost 2:21:51.520 --> 2:21:54.040 ground at every level of government. This remains true even 2:21:54.080 --> 2:21:55.920 in the face of the blue wave in the most 2:21:55.920 --> 2:22:00.560 recent elections twenty twenty five. Gobernatorial and mayoral wins in Virginia, 2:22:00.600 --> 2:22:04.119 New Jersey, New York City, Detroit, and elsewhere may lead 2:22:04.200 --> 2:22:08.240 to a false sense of security and a belief the 2:22:08.280 --> 2:22:11.680 Democratic Party has again found ways to bring voters back 2:22:11.720 --> 2:22:14.160 to the booth with their messaging. While these wins are 2:22:14.200 --> 2:22:17.600 welcome and point to optimism entrenched in the major party strategy, 2:22:18.160 --> 2:22:21.160 a dive into details shows some of these elections were 2:22:21.200 --> 2:22:24.800 tighter than Democrats should be comfortable with and points to 2:22:24.920 --> 2:22:29.600 room for improvement in future efforts. Unquote. It never gives 2:22:29.680 --> 2:22:32.360 this dive into the details, so we don't even know 2:22:32.480 --> 2:22:35.600 what it's taking There and to me, this paragraph just 2:22:35.680 --> 2:22:40.360 demonstrates an unwillingness to understand why some of these elections 2:22:40.360 --> 2:22:42.200 went the way they did, especially the one in New 2:22:42.240 --> 2:22:45.000 York City. Doesn't want to acknowledge why someone like Zoron 2:22:45.320 --> 2:22:48.959 ran such a successful campaign and claiming that the margins 2:22:48.959 --> 2:22:51.720 were tighter than what Democrats should be comfortable with. Also 2:22:52.040 --> 2:22:56.440 ignores the fact that Zorn's biggest opponent in both the 2:22:56.440 --> 2:23:00.040 primary and general election was another Democrat who ran and 2:23:00.160 --> 2:23:03.960 is an independent, someone who was associated with the Democratic establishment. 2:23:04.280 --> 2:23:07.560 It's a bizarre little tidbit that they throw in there. 2:23:07.760 --> 2:23:12.560 This is so weird, just like a highly unnecessary tangent. 2:23:12.680 --> 2:23:16.560 And it just shows this like uncomfortableness, and you know, 2:23:16.959 --> 2:23:19.080 on one side being uncomfortable, on the other side, just 2:23:19.120 --> 2:23:23.360 you know, also being incurious about why those elections have 2:23:23.440 --> 2:23:25.760 gone the way they did and what you can actually 2:23:25.879 --> 2:23:27.080 learn from them. 2:23:27.400 --> 2:23:28.200 This baffling. 2:23:29.520 --> 2:23:32.560 I'm not going to go over every single section of 2:23:32.600 --> 2:23:35.360 the report because there's a lot and the way the 2:23:35.440 --> 2:23:39.000 DNC annotated it gets interesting because at a certain point 2:23:39.000 --> 2:23:43.119 they stop actually trying to address or annotate specific claims 2:23:43.640 --> 2:23:47.039 and instead just to annotate the titles of entire sections, 2:23:47.480 --> 2:23:51.080 writing no sourcing provided for several claims in this section, 2:23:51.280 --> 2:23:53.959 and no evidence provided for many claims in this section. 2:23:54.240 --> 2:23:57.120 Public reporting and data contradict several claims. 2:23:57.840 --> 2:23:58.240 Wow. 2:23:58.680 --> 2:24:03.280 The introduction for the what Happened Electoral Overview section is 2:24:03.320 --> 2:24:08.080 also completely missing, as well as the national review section. 2:24:08.520 --> 2:24:11.040 These are just not included. The author did not provide 2:24:11.160 --> 2:24:16.240 those sections. The next section, the one on battleground state outcomes, 2:24:16.640 --> 2:24:22.920 contains very basic factual errors. In just the second sentence, quote, 2:24:23.240 --> 2:24:26.680 states which had consistently and reliably voted for Democratic candidates, 2:24:26.800 --> 2:24:31.840 including Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin, voted for Trump. Unquote. All 2:24:31.920 --> 2:24:34.879 these three states voted for Trump in twenty sixteen. I 2:24:34.920 --> 2:24:38.840 don't know if Rivera has a different definition of consistent 2:24:39.200 --> 2:24:45.240 or reliable, but these are notably swing states, and swing 2:24:45.280 --> 2:24:47.600 states have voted for Trump in twenty sixteen. Yeah, just 2:24:47.600 --> 2:24:50.160 like a lot of little details like that just don't 2:24:50.200 --> 2:24:53.360 make sense. And later on in this section and beyond, 2:24:53.600 --> 2:24:57.160 it gets dates wrong, It gets the percentage of votes wrong. 2:24:57.920 --> 2:25:01.000 It falsely claims that a Capitol police off was beaten 2:25:01.080 --> 2:25:04.920 to death by insurrectionists on January sixth. That's not true. 2:25:04.959 --> 2:25:09.280 That did not happen. An officer killed himself a few 2:25:09.360 --> 2:25:12.280 days later, but he was not beaten to death on 2:25:12.400 --> 2:25:15.560 site at January sixth. The report uses the word gaslighting, 2:25:15.640 --> 2:25:16.760 which I think is funny. 2:25:17.160 --> 2:25:19.680 I just kind of wonder if you, like uploaded this 2:25:20.520 --> 2:25:23.240 to one of the like AI softwares to tell you 2:25:23.280 --> 2:25:26.880 if it's AI or tell you if it was you know, 2:25:27.240 --> 2:25:30.640 plagiarized and those kinds of things, how much of it 2:25:30.680 --> 2:25:31.520 would be flagged? 2:25:31.840 --> 2:25:32.040 Yeah? 2:25:32.080 --> 2:25:34.720 Who knows, right, Like those sorts of tools aren't the 2:25:34.760 --> 2:25:35.879 most accurate themselves. 2:25:36.000 --> 2:25:37.520 No, but it's just crazy. 2:25:37.520 --> 2:25:41.520 But the level of errors is shocking. 2:25:41.879 --> 2:25:42.400 Yeah. 2:25:42.840 --> 2:25:46.360 Like, for instance, the report claims that in the twenty 2:25:46.360 --> 2:25:49.480 twenty four election, Democrats netted two seats in the House, 2:25:49.760 --> 2:25:52.879 flipping ten seats from Republicans while losing eight. This is 2:25:52.920 --> 2:25:56.120 not true. This is just not a true claim. Democrats 2:25:56.240 --> 2:26:01.200 netted one seat rather than two, flipping nine Republican health 2:26:01.240 --> 2:26:04.840 seats while losing eight Democrat seats. It's like, there's just 2:26:05.000 --> 2:26:08.080 small little errors like that that I'm like, how how. 2:26:08.480 --> 2:26:09.160 Did you do this? 2:26:10.240 --> 2:26:11.000 Unbelievable. 2:26:12.520 --> 2:26:15.320 There's also a bunch of just unfounded claims about the 2:26:15.360 --> 2:26:20.440 intentions or assumptions coming from the Harris campaign, which may 2:26:20.480 --> 2:26:24.640 be true, but they're not supported in the actual report, 2:26:25.200 --> 2:26:28.680 Like you're not providing evidence, you're not providing citations for 2:26:28.840 --> 2:26:32.240 some of the claims about what the Harris Party intended 2:26:32.840 --> 2:26:36.520 in some of their messaging or stances. But I want 2:26:36.560 --> 2:26:38.440 to move on to one of the biggest takeaways that 2:26:38.440 --> 2:26:42.959 the report had. It argues that anti Trump sentiment was 2:26:43.080 --> 2:26:47.240 assumed by Democratic campaigns and that campaign ads should have 2:26:47.320 --> 2:26:50.680 hit Trump harder to remind voters of how bad he 2:26:50.760 --> 2:26:56.200 is quote. The national campaign did not effectively drive Trump's negatives, 2:26:56.720 --> 2:26:59.600 the retrospective job approval for Trump was too high, and 2:26:59.640 --> 2:27:02.680 the Camp Pagin and allies failed to remind voters of 2:27:02.680 --> 2:27:06.040 his incompetence. The idea of Trump's negatives were quote unquote 2:27:06.080 --> 2:27:09.720 baked in is a major failure of analysis and reality, 2:27:10.160 --> 2:27:13.560 given how his favorability has cratered less than a year 2:27:13.920 --> 2:27:19.040 into this term unquote. The DNC notes that no evidence 2:27:19.080 --> 2:27:23.320 was provided for these claims, and that this claim contradicts 2:27:23.440 --> 2:27:27.280 claims elsewhere in the report because a lot of the 2:27:27.320 --> 2:27:32.440 report also criticizes Harris for only defining herself as not 2:27:32.640 --> 2:27:35.520 being Trump, as focusing too much on Trump and not 2:27:35.560 --> 2:27:38.960 defining herself. So the report kind of tries to have 2:27:39.000 --> 2:27:42.720 it both ways here. The campaigns did not hit Trump 2:27:42.800 --> 2:27:47.080 hard enough, but were also too focused on Trump, never 2:27:47.240 --> 2:27:50.840 illuminating what attacks against Trump should have looked like. 2:27:50.959 --> 2:27:55.959 Exactly is there any mention in these reports about Epstein? 2:27:59.120 --> 2:28:01.960 No? No, oh no, yeah, no, absolutely not. 2:28:02.280 --> 2:28:03.440 Yeah, because it. 2:28:03.360 --> 2:28:06.440 Was baffling to me that because they needed to have 2:28:06.640 --> 2:28:10.160 Bill Clinton make the worst speech at the DNC, that 2:28:10.240 --> 2:28:13.840 they didn't target Trump over his relationship with Epstein at 2:28:13.840 --> 2:28:15.119 all during the campaign. 2:28:15.720 --> 2:28:18.240 So you know, of course it's not in there. 2:28:18.800 --> 2:28:20.320 I mean, yeah, there's a lot of a lot of 2:28:20.320 --> 2:28:22.680 things that you could hit Trump on, and a lot 2:28:22.680 --> 2:28:27.119 of yeah, Democratic ads like did maybe not in ways 2:28:27.120 --> 2:28:30.040 that people found convincing. You know, like when we were 2:28:30.040 --> 2:28:32.640 at the DNC, A lot of the anti Trump stuff 2:28:32.800 --> 2:28:35.920 was based around like the horror of January sixth, Yeah, 2:28:36.000 --> 2:28:40.840 not his regular failures as president, right, like, like like 2:28:41.000 --> 2:28:43.960 the day to day incompetence that he showed as president. 2:28:44.040 --> 2:28:48.280 It was like Trump is threat to democracy, which just 2:28:48.360 --> 2:28:50.560 did not turn out to be a compelling enough reason 2:28:50.600 --> 2:28:51.720 to vote against Trump. 2:28:52.400 --> 2:28:53.360 Oh my goodness. 2:28:53.760 --> 2:28:57.520 The report claims that Harris struggled with defining herself beyond 2:28:57.720 --> 2:29:01.720 not being Trump and just framing the race as prosecutor 2:29:01.800 --> 2:29:06.680 versus felon. Report notes quote the truncated campaign timeline didn't help, 2:29:07.120 --> 2:29:10.040 but the campaign did not quickly resolve on how to 2:29:10.160 --> 2:29:14.120 tag Trump and define Harris. The report says that the 2:29:14.560 --> 2:29:19.920 enthusiasm gap was predictable, that Trump just generated more enthusiasm 2:29:20.120 --> 2:29:23.280 than Harris. Does not provide evidence to support this claim, 2:29:23.560 --> 2:29:26.200 though some people may believe this to be true, but 2:29:26.240 --> 2:29:29.720 this claim is not supported in the actual report, and 2:29:29.879 --> 2:29:33.400 it reads quote anti Trump sentiment alone was insufficient to 2:29:33.440 --> 2:29:37.160 motivate voters. The Harris campaign appears to have relied on 2:29:37.200 --> 2:29:41.400 Trump being unacceptable rather than building an affirmative case for 2:29:41.520 --> 2:29:45.600 Harris base voters and needed reasons to vote for Harris 2:29:45.959 --> 2:29:50.320 as well as vote against Trump. DNC notes no evidence 2:29:50.360 --> 2:29:53.560 provided for these claims, So I kind of agree with 2:29:53.680 --> 2:29:57.279 portions of this. I think, yeah, you do need reasons 2:29:57.320 --> 2:30:00.240 to vote for Harris. You cannot be justified as not 2:30:00.320 --> 2:30:04.400 being Trump. This does contradict the previous takeaway that anti 2:30:04.400 --> 2:30:08.200 Trump's sediment was not driven hard enough into voters. So 2:30:08.360 --> 2:30:12.920 perhaps this claim isn't necessarily wrong, but it is armchair analysis. 2:30:13.000 --> 2:30:16.840 It's not actually attempting to substantiate its claims. It's lazy 2:30:16.840 --> 2:30:20.400 and sloppy, and it ignores that there were also reasons 2:30:20.680 --> 2:30:23.720 to not vote for Harris. It's not just that the 2:30:23.720 --> 2:30:26.360 campaign needed to generate reasons to vote for Harris, but 2:30:26.560 --> 2:30:30.600 it also should have addressed or changed its course to 2:30:30.760 --> 2:30:33.959 address the reasons that people might not want to vote 2:30:33.959 --> 2:30:36.800 for Harris, which we will get to at the end 2:30:36.879 --> 2:30:41.680 of this episode. In terms of the election analysis included 2:30:41.680 --> 2:30:44.200 in this report, a lot of it is focused on 2:30:44.280 --> 2:30:48.840 comparing Harris's performance to state level races where Democratic candidates 2:30:48.879 --> 2:30:54.240 outperformed her, but also where she outperformed them, and the 2:30:54.240 --> 2:30:59.240 analysis often conflates the two. It reiterates that quote lower 2:30:59.280 --> 2:31:03.600 profile rate needed affirmative cases to vote for candidates, not 2:31:03.720 --> 2:31:08.520 just opposition to Trump, and it credits successful state campaigns 2:31:08.800 --> 2:31:13.560 to local name recognition and digital presence, things that Harris 2:31:13.640 --> 2:31:17.720 was not necessarily lacking in. Harris spent a decent amount 2:31:17.720 --> 2:31:21.760 of money on digital presence, and as vice president, had 2:31:21.800 --> 2:31:25.680 a degree of name recognition. There's more odd errors here. 2:31:26.000 --> 2:31:28.840 The report gets the number of twenty twenty four gobnatorial 2:31:28.959 --> 2:31:32.800 races wrong. It forgets that Delaware had a governatorial race, 2:31:33.440 --> 2:31:35.760 and it focuses much of this section of the report 2:31:35.879 --> 2:31:40.720 on Josh Stein of North Carolina, who's the governor. Yeah. Quote. 2:31:41.080 --> 2:31:43.720 While Stein was able to keep the governor's office under 2:31:43.720 --> 2:31:47.480 democratic control, it is concerning how Robinson was able to 2:31:47.480 --> 2:31:50.640 capture forty five percent of the state's vote even after 2:31:50.680 --> 2:31:54.400 his repudiation of equal rights for everyone and proudly and 2:31:54.480 --> 2:31:58.320 loudly asserting he was a black Nazi unquote. 2:31:58.879 --> 2:32:01.600 Man, I forgot about that guy. I'm mad that you 2:32:01.680 --> 2:32:04.279 brought him up. I forgot he existed. 2:32:06.120 --> 2:32:07.960 A lot of the section of this report is actually 2:32:08.000 --> 2:32:10.879 praising Josh Stein for how well he ran his campaign, 2:32:11.600 --> 2:32:15.240 while also finding it concerning of how much the vote 2:32:15.320 --> 2:32:17.840 Robinson was able to still get, except it gets the 2:32:17.920 --> 2:32:21.760 number wrong. Robinson did not get forty five percent of 2:32:21.800 --> 2:32:25.360 the vote. He got just over forty percent, And later 2:32:25.440 --> 2:32:27.959 in the report it says he got forty two point 2:32:28.080 --> 2:32:31.600 seven percent, which is also wrong. So it has two 2:32:31.640 --> 2:32:35.320 different numbers. The report says forty five and forty two 2:32:35.360 --> 2:32:38.920 point seven, neither of which are correct. The correct number 2:32:38.959 --> 2:32:43.000 is forty people. This is a lot of stuff like this. 2:32:43.440 --> 2:32:46.240 There's just kind of baffling, and it's even more baffling 2:32:46.240 --> 2:32:49.280 because of how much of a load bearing section this 2:32:49.400 --> 2:32:52.560 Josh Stein bit is right. It writes about how Josh 2:32:52.600 --> 2:32:56.039 Stein ran almost eight points ahead of Harris, and it 2:32:56.080 --> 2:33:00.440 says that quote Stein didn't just win by default. He 2:33:00.520 --> 2:33:05.320 addressed the exact problems Harris did not. But it never 2:33:05.680 --> 2:33:09.680 actually explains what those are. It doesn't actually explain this, 2:33:09.760 --> 2:33:12.640 It just says it. In a sentence later on, it 2:33:12.760 --> 2:33:16.160 says that, based on the North Carolina governor's race, Democrats 2:33:16.160 --> 2:33:20.600 should quote focus less on abstract issues and identity politics 2:33:20.600 --> 2:33:23.200 and connect with voters on the issues they say matter most, 2:33:23.560 --> 2:33:28.520 including the economy, disaster relief, and addressing housing affordability. Unquote, 2:33:28.800 --> 2:33:32.880 but the Harris's campaign was not actually focused on abstract 2:33:32.879 --> 2:33:36.160 issues and identity politics. They were trying to address these things, 2:33:36.440 --> 2:33:39.360 often inadequately, especially on the economy because of how much 2:33:39.440 --> 2:33:42.840 Harris had tied herself to Biden. But she did address 2:33:42.879 --> 2:33:45.640 housing affordability for like a decent bit of the campaign. 2:33:45.920 --> 2:33:49.400 Whether voters actually knew that, that's a whole other question, right. 2:33:49.600 --> 2:33:54.280 It's whether they were successful in communicating her platform on 2:33:54.320 --> 2:33:57.920 housing affordability is a different question, But not that Stein's 2:33:57.959 --> 2:34:00.760 success was focused on this. As a post to focusing 2:34:00.800 --> 2:34:05.080 on abstract issues, which is not really what the Harris 2:34:05.080 --> 2:34:09.000 campaign was actually focused on. The report continues, quote Harris 2:34:09.040 --> 2:34:12.200 saw dramatic drops in support among young Latino men and 2:34:12.320 --> 2:34:15.960 young Black men compared to Biden's twenty twenty performance. However, 2:34:16.400 --> 2:34:21.680 Stein recovered significant ground with both groups, suggesting his campaign 2:34:21.760 --> 2:34:26.080 found effective ways to reach these voters. Stein's result suggests 2:34:26.120 --> 2:34:29.200 it's possible to win women and compete with men with 2:34:29.400 --> 2:34:35.480 the right approach. Unquote. Does it explain how Stein did this? No, No, 2:34:35.600 --> 2:34:36.080 it doesn't. 2:34:36.200 --> 2:34:37.039 Of course it doesn't. 2:34:37.680 --> 2:34:42.880 He doesn't say now. The report also praises Washington Governor 2:34:42.920 --> 2:34:46.480 Bob Ferguson, who was elected in twenty twenty four. Quote. 2:34:46.720 --> 2:34:49.600 Running on a platform of housing affordability, reducing costs for 2:34:49.640 --> 2:34:52.840 families throughout the state, and improving public safety allowed him 2:34:52.840 --> 2:34:56.160 to easily capture the governor's office. His message resonated with 2:34:56.240 --> 2:34:59.720 voters concerned about how bidonomics failed to lower the cost 2:34:59.720 --> 2:35:02.920 of a and how the Trump administration would gut avenues 2:35:02.959 --> 2:35:08.560 of education and upward mobility. Stein and Ferguson, notably both 2:35:08.680 --> 2:35:12.640 then incumbent attorneys general for their states, had a definitive 2:35:12.720 --> 2:35:16.280 strategy to approach voters. Their wins provide a blueprint for 2:35:16.360 --> 2:35:19.680 candidates in other states seeking to align themselves with their 2:35:19.800 --> 2:35:24.279 voters unquote. So Ferguson's win in Washington State is presented 2:35:24.320 --> 2:35:27.920 as a blueprint for candidates as compared to Harris's failed strategy, 2:35:28.760 --> 2:35:32.960 but in fact, Ferguson ran almost four points behind Harris. 2:35:33.600 --> 2:35:36.880 Harris did better in Washington than Ferguson did, but the 2:35:36.959 --> 2:35:42.000 report promotes Ferguson's strategy, or its its opinion on Ferguson's strategy, 2:35:42.200 --> 2:35:44.960 as the winning blueprint, despite it doing worse in Washington. 2:35:45.920 --> 2:35:47.760 So that's what I mean in terms of there being 2:35:48.000 --> 2:35:49.960 lots of self contradictory claims. 2:35:50.440 --> 2:35:55.160 Yeah, did nobody proofread or edit or peer review? 2:35:55.920 --> 2:35:58.080 Well no, I think that is a big part of this, right, 2:35:58.160 --> 2:36:01.320 is that once the DNC received this, they saw how 2:36:01.360 --> 2:36:03.320 bad it was, and it was like, we don't even 2:36:03.440 --> 2:36:05.400 want to prove freedom edit this, Like this is just 2:36:05.440 --> 2:36:07.040 so bad, we just don't even want to deal with 2:36:07.080 --> 2:36:09.120 it anymore. Like it's just done right, We're just putting 2:36:09.160 --> 2:36:09.600 on the shelf. 2:36:09.840 --> 2:36:11.480 But dude released it anyways. 2:36:11.760 --> 2:36:14.840 Well, I mean they released it after public pressure because 2:36:14.840 --> 2:36:18.199 of you know, accusations that they were hiding certain findings 2:36:18.600 --> 2:36:21.119 that were damaging to the Democratic Party or the interests 2:36:21.120 --> 2:36:21.920 of party elites. 2:36:22.200 --> 2:36:26.640 No, it's just it's just that somebody did a bad. 2:36:26.440 --> 2:36:28.920 Job, when in fact it's just like, oh, this was 2:36:28.920 --> 2:36:30.959 just like a massive suck up, Like that's that's why 2:36:31.000 --> 2:36:34.640 you're hiding it, right right, Like this this this section 2:36:34.720 --> 2:36:37.280 that I just like read and the section on like Stein. Yeah, 2:36:37.440 --> 2:36:40.640 that's the only time where the word cost is used 2:36:40.640 --> 2:36:42.920 in relation to prices. Sick. This is this is the 2:36:42.959 --> 2:36:44.720 only mention of affordability. 2:36:44.920 --> 2:36:45.800 Oh my god. 2:36:46.240 --> 2:36:50.840 The report does not a single time mentioned inflation, Oh 2:36:50.879 --> 2:36:56.120 my god, except in adjusting like donation numbers for inflation. Like, 2:36:56.320 --> 2:36:59.039 it doesn't. It doesn't mention inflation as an issue. It 2:36:59.040 --> 2:37:02.760 does not mention the causes of inflation, messaging around inflation 2:37:03.440 --> 2:37:06.480 and how that may have been a factor contributing to 2:37:06.520 --> 2:37:09.640 the results of the election. The economy only gets mentioned 2:37:09.640 --> 2:37:10.440 six times. 2:37:10.920 --> 2:37:15.160 Okay, just thinking back to when we were at the RNC, 2:37:15.680 --> 2:37:19.400 and I'm sure you had the conversations with you know, 2:37:19.680 --> 2:37:24.000 newly eligible voters, young males. Yeah, and you ask them, 2:37:24.160 --> 2:37:27.440 you know, why they were voting for Donald Trump. They 2:37:27.480 --> 2:37:31.400 would always say the economy it's the first thing. 2:37:31.879 --> 2:37:34.320 It's the first thing. Yeah, and that's the core of 2:37:34.920 --> 2:37:36.640 Trump's ad strategy. 2:37:37.000 --> 2:37:40.080 How are they not understanding that, you know, bringing out 2:37:40.120 --> 2:37:42.960 Oprah at the DNC instead of talking about how you're 2:37:43.000 --> 2:37:45.959 going to lower the price of milk and eggs and 2:37:46.120 --> 2:37:50.760 gas and help people get jobs, Like, how are they 2:37:50.800 --> 2:37:54.480 not realizing that you're not reaching normal human connection? 2:37:55.240 --> 2:37:58.000 And this like continues to be a problem now, right, Yeah, 2:37:58.080 --> 2:38:02.200 people will look at macro economic fact sure and be like, 2:38:02.360 --> 2:38:05.640 by some accounts, the unum is actually not doing terrible, 2:38:06.520 --> 2:38:09.680 But those sorts of statements don't reflect the reality of 2:38:09.760 --> 2:38:12.800 Americans who are dealing with rising prices and may not 2:38:12.840 --> 2:38:16.039 be experiencing the same wage growth that some statistics show 2:38:16.480 --> 2:38:20.080 in the macro sense, and specifically the way that there's 2:38:20.080 --> 2:38:24.360 this like a condescending messaging around macroeconomics that really like 2:38:24.480 --> 2:38:28.480 polarizes people against you because they're having a very hard time, 2:38:28.520 --> 2:38:30.080 they don't have a lot of hope for the future, 2:38:30.520 --> 2:38:33.480 and just asserting that actually, on a macro's level, the 2:38:33.520 --> 2:38:38.119 economy is doing well, it feels like you're gas lighting them, right, Yeah, 2:38:38.240 --> 2:38:39.959 So you see this in like the discussion of like, 2:38:40.000 --> 2:38:42.800 you know, the vibe session. Yeah, which I mean I 2:38:42.800 --> 2:38:47.439 have a lot of opinions on but that's another episode. 2:38:47.800 --> 2:39:03.400 And right now we're going to go to ads. Oh boy, okay, 2:39:03.440 --> 2:39:07.959 we are back. So after this section talking about the 2:39:08.000 --> 2:39:12.519 gubernatorial races and stuff, it has a list of strategic 2:39:12.760 --> 2:39:17.880 implications for Democrats based on these state level races, and 2:39:18.000 --> 2:39:22.520 these implications are quote, anti Trump sentiment has its limits. Oh, 2:39:22.600 --> 2:39:27.720 regular voters are swing voters Canada. Definition is essential. Clear, 2:39:27.760 --> 2:39:32.600 accomplishments and concrete plans matter more than vibes. State parties matter. 2:39:33.120 --> 2:39:35.920 Voters are sophisticated. The eight to ten percent who split 2:39:35.959 --> 2:39:42.000 tickets are decisive. They evaluate candidates individually. Geographic formula is 2:39:42.080 --> 2:39:47.879 non negotiable. Strong urban plus competitive suburbs plus limited rural losses. 2:39:48.120 --> 2:39:53.080 You need all three. Yeah, no shit. In order to 2:39:53.120 --> 2:39:56.680 win elections, you must win elections. Yeah, that's what this 2:39:56.840 --> 2:39:59.560 is saying, is that in order to win elections, you 2:39:59.640 --> 2:40:03.680 have to win the election. Yeah, we know, we know. 2:40:04.480 --> 2:40:07.560 Yeah, there's this there's this announcer in the NBA that 2:40:07.879 --> 2:40:10.879 got slammed many years back for stating, well, you know, 2:40:11.000 --> 2:40:12.800 the team with the most points at the end of 2:40:12.800 --> 2:40:17.240 the game wins, and that's exactly what this is. They're like, hey, 2:40:17.560 --> 2:40:20.279 if you get more votes than the other guy. 2:40:20.800 --> 2:40:22.000 You'll win it. 2:40:22.120 --> 2:40:25.280 It's crazy, it's lazy that this whole, this whole thing 2:40:25.360 --> 2:40:31.080 reeks of just like, yes, lacksadaisical, insufferable laziness. 2:40:31.520 --> 2:40:37.000 Yes, And I want to mention two other strategic implications please. One, 2:40:37.840 --> 2:40:42.199 Elections remain winnable with the right candidates and strategies, even 2:40:42.240 --> 2:40:47.440 in difficult environments. Demographics are tendencies, not destiny. And voter 2:40:47.560 --> 2:40:51.840 support is impacted good and bad through campaign choices. 2:40:51.959 --> 2:40:55.160 Unquote, wow, thank you so much for saying that. 2:40:55.120 --> 2:40:59.560 If people genius, if people believe in and like the candidate, 2:40:59.680 --> 2:41:01.080 maybe the vote for them. 2:41:01.920 --> 2:41:02.280 Wow. 2:41:02.560 --> 2:41:05.720 Voter support is impacted through campaign choices. 2:41:06.520 --> 2:41:08.879 Just just ah, my goodness. 2:41:09.280 --> 2:41:12.720 So that's obviously laughable. Yes, this last one is more interesting. 2:41:13.240 --> 2:41:18.240 Male voters require direct engagement. The gender gap can be narrowed. 2:41:18.840 --> 2:41:24.439 Deploy male messagers address economic concerns, and don't assume identity 2:41:24.480 --> 2:41:29.160 politics will hold male voters of color, men hate women, 2:41:30.040 --> 2:41:33.760 men hate It's not the messenger. It's not the messenger, 2:41:33.920 --> 2:41:37.240 it's the message. It's not about who the messenger is. 2:41:37.280 --> 2:41:39.880 It's the message itself. And they can't grasp that. 2:41:40.480 --> 2:41:41.879 Why is that their take? 2:41:42.640 --> 2:41:47.119 They're doing the same identity politics that is like trying 2:41:47.120 --> 2:41:50.360 to critique. It's like, no, we need men to talk 2:41:50.400 --> 2:41:54.640 to male voters. That's the only way. That's also identity politics. 2:41:54.800 --> 2:41:57.160 You don't understand that. It's not about who's giving the message, 2:41:57.160 --> 2:42:00.720 it's about what the message actually is. How did white 2:42:00.800 --> 2:42:04.680 dudes for Harris work out? You literally tried this. You 2:42:04.800 --> 2:42:07.279 literally tried to do this. It did not work. 2:42:07.720 --> 2:42:08.160 Garrison. 2:42:08.240 --> 2:42:10.280 Once again, I did block that out of my brain. 2:42:10.720 --> 2:42:16.160 I did not like hearing it. Yeah, their take is sorry, 2:42:16.200 --> 2:42:19.200 if you want to talk to the boys, you also 2:42:19.440 --> 2:42:20.880 have to be a boy. 2:42:21.240 --> 2:42:21.920 It's crazy. 2:42:22.160 --> 2:42:29.039 What it's lazy, it's stupid. God, all right, what else 2:42:29.160 --> 2:42:31.600 hit me there? I know that you're saving some of 2:42:31.640 --> 2:42:32.720 the worst for the end. 2:42:32.920 --> 2:42:35.160 Yeah, I am saving some of the bad stuff for last. 2:42:35.360 --> 2:42:37.480 There's a few other small errors I want to go through, Like, 2:42:37.560 --> 2:42:40.560 let's do it like it claims that tens of thousands 2:42:40.600 --> 2:42:43.320 of voters and a handful of states are who sent 2:42:43.400 --> 2:42:47.360 Trump back to the White House. That's that's accurate. That's 2:42:47.360 --> 2:42:49.280 just that's just not inaccurate. And the DNC notesic what 2:42:49.440 --> 2:42:53.240 happened at all okay an. Out of thirty four senate races, 2:42:53.760 --> 2:42:57.760 the report only reviews six of them, which it attempts 2:42:57.800 --> 2:43:01.400 to extrapolate a pattern from, and it does not review Wisconsin, 2:43:01.520 --> 2:43:04.879 a key swing state. And the author also just did 2:43:04.920 --> 2:43:07.480 not include this section on house races. This section is 2:43:07.480 --> 2:43:12.600 completely blank. It's also missing. Cool now, it does have 2:43:12.680 --> 2:43:14.959 a list of, you know, lessons that we can learn 2:43:15.320 --> 2:43:19.560 from senate level and state level races. The positive ones 2:43:19.560 --> 2:43:22.800 are that Democrats should maintain a year around presence. We 2:43:22.840 --> 2:43:27.200 should kind of always be campaigning, don't just wait till 2:43:27.240 --> 2:43:29.640 the end, just to always keep a level of engagement. 2:43:29.680 --> 2:43:32.320 And that engagement should be community oriented. It should be 2:43:32.320 --> 2:43:35.480 grassroots in nature. You should be establishing partnerships with local 2:43:35.520 --> 2:43:40.959 community organizations and groups in working class communities, because member 2:43:41.000 --> 2:43:44.119 to member outreach is more effective. Rather than having strangers 2:43:44.120 --> 2:43:47.200 do door knocking, you should have people from that neighborhood 2:43:47.200 --> 2:43:50.760 be door knocking in their own neighborhoods, and their messaging 2:43:50.840 --> 2:43:54.680 should be bilingual and culturally competent. So like all the 2:43:54.680 --> 2:43:57.240 stuff is like yeah, like I su this is like 2:43:57.480 --> 2:43:59.760 I kind of agree, right, this is like yeah, very 2:44:00.160 --> 2:44:03.000 very basic, but yes, this is this is a good idea. 2:44:03.040 --> 2:44:08.320 You should strengthen your connections in Latino neighborhoods and with unions, 2:44:08.680 --> 2:44:12.400 and you should lean on those to help win elections. Yep, 2:44:12.480 --> 2:44:13.920 that's how politics works. 2:44:14.120 --> 2:44:16.040 You learn very young stranger danger. 2:44:16.480 --> 2:44:18.920 And so it's like, if you are someone like me 2:44:19.000 --> 2:44:21.400 who has cameras at their house and you see a 2:44:21.480 --> 2:44:25.000 strange person coming to your door, you're not necessarily going 2:44:25.080 --> 2:44:25.600 to answer that. 2:44:25.959 --> 2:44:28.680 No, someone with a clipboard is going to approach me. 2:44:28.720 --> 2:44:30.800 It's like, Oh, no way, I'm not having not doing it. 2:44:30.879 --> 2:44:33.760 I can't. You're I'm already over stimulated. Please leave me on. 2:44:34.120 --> 2:44:37.520 But if it's like, oh, hey, it's my neighbor, I'm 2:44:37.520 --> 2:44:39.760 going to open the door for them and hear them out, 2:44:40.280 --> 2:44:42.760 that's I fear. That's just common sense. I don't think 2:44:42.760 --> 2:44:46.000 that was necessarily needed in this report. That's common sense, 2:44:46.200 --> 2:44:49.480 but it's something I don't disagree with for like the 2:44:49.520 --> 2:44:51.600 first time. And all these things that you said. 2:44:51.840 --> 2:44:54.240 Now, the sort of negative things that the Democrats can 2:44:54.320 --> 2:44:58.440 learn from, yeah, include what the report calls the leadership 2:44:58.560 --> 2:45:02.680 voter gap, the fact that the Democratic Party leadership seems 2:45:02.760 --> 2:45:07.400 increasingly alienated from the priorities of voters and voters may 2:45:07.440 --> 2:45:11.080 still support their local Democrat on the state level or 2:45:11.160 --> 2:45:15.080 local races, but maybe we'll vote for Trump because he's 2:45:15.120 --> 2:45:20.199 offering an alternative to the stagnating corpse of the Democratic Party, 2:45:20.240 --> 2:45:22.920 even if that alternative turns out to be also terrible 2:45:22.959 --> 2:45:25.360 and in some ways worse. So this is what they 2:45:25.360 --> 2:45:28.959 call the leadership voter gap. They also identify late engagement, 2:45:29.600 --> 2:45:34.200 doing the bulk of your campaigning from like September to November, 2:45:34.879 --> 2:45:38.920 seating the entire summer for the Republicans to establish kind 2:45:38.959 --> 2:45:41.840 of the territory of the race, like what the issues are, 2:45:42.600 --> 2:45:46.959 the report mentions, messaging, misalignment. This is similar to the 2:45:47.080 --> 2:45:52.320 leadership voter gap, where there's tensions between the leadership of 2:45:52.400 --> 2:45:55.360 the party or the concerns of the president and what 2:45:55.640 --> 2:46:01.199 working class Americans are concerned about. Quote. The Bidenomics framing 2:46:01.240 --> 2:46:05.760 emphasized macro statistics rather than the microrealities voters experienced daily, 2:46:06.160 --> 2:46:11.800 and specifically tied President Biden by name to actual economic anxiety. Unquote. 2:46:12.040 --> 2:46:15.320 I think that's completely fair. Another of the key challenges 2:46:15.440 --> 2:46:19.640 is Republican in roads with working class of voters. This 2:46:19.680 --> 2:46:21.880 section has a typo, so it's kind of hard to read, 2:46:22.600 --> 2:46:24.240 but it essentially. 2:46:23.800 --> 2:46:26.360 States there there's so many typos, but. 2:46:26.360 --> 2:46:29.800 It essentially states that the Trump campaign targeted working class 2:46:29.840 --> 2:46:35.720 households with populas messaging which distracted from his anti worker record, 2:46:36.440 --> 2:46:39.959 and working class men, particularly manufacturing and construction, saw Trump 2:46:40.040 --> 2:46:43.640 as more aligned with their cultural values than Democratic candidates. 2:46:44.480 --> 2:46:47.600 To Kanezi's down, Democrats need to have a year round presence, 2:46:47.640 --> 2:46:51.440 more economic messaging, and address cost of living concerns that 2:46:51.520 --> 2:46:56.280 resonate more than quote unquote identity politics. This is kind 2:46:56.280 --> 2:47:00.640 of where the actual election analysis portion of the docum ends. 2:47:01.400 --> 2:47:03.280 The rest of the document is on how to more 2:47:03.280 --> 2:47:09.320 effectively spend campaign funds, debating door knocking versus text and 2:47:09.400 --> 2:47:14.640 phone banking, addressing dropping voter registration rates, comparing media and ads, 2:47:14.640 --> 2:47:16.959 spending digital versus TV ads. 2:47:17.400 --> 2:47:19.320 Is there anything interesting in those findings? 2:47:19.879 --> 2:47:23.320 No, not really, Okay, it's filling the page count. Like 2:47:23.680 --> 2:47:26.760 the Democrats got a lot of money. The problem isn't 2:47:26.800 --> 2:47:30.320 the funds. We have the funds. It's that there's small 2:47:30.360 --> 2:47:34.119 ways that you can use them better. And sure, yeah, 2:47:34.440 --> 2:47:37.280 but all of this is just treating the symptom, not 2:47:37.400 --> 2:47:41.000 the problem. The problem wasn't that you were spending more 2:47:41.040 --> 2:47:44.560 on digital and not enough on broadcast. The problem was 2:47:44.600 --> 2:47:48.440 the candidate and the message, not differences in ad spending. 2:47:49.000 --> 2:47:52.680 It's not that you you had ads running, it's that 2:47:52.720 --> 2:47:56.640 the ads you had running weren't connecting with the people. 2:47:56.640 --> 2:47:59.600 Whose votes you needed, the people that were going to 2:47:59.680 --> 2:48:03.280 vote for you already, that's who those ads were targeting to, 2:48:03.920 --> 2:48:07.800 as opposed to bringing in voters who were like, oh man, 2:48:07.879 --> 2:48:08.879 I'm really not sure. 2:48:09.360 --> 2:48:13.160 Trump was pretty bad last time, I'm on the fence here, 2:48:13.680 --> 2:48:15.800 or just for first time voters. 2:48:15.520 --> 2:48:18.480 The first time voter registration was was down significantly. 2:48:19.040 --> 2:48:22.680 Yeah, the fact that you ran ads in certain places, 2:48:22.800 --> 2:48:25.840 that was not the problem. No, you weren't advertising to 2:48:25.959 --> 2:48:28.960 the people that needed to be advertised too. Your messaging 2:48:29.120 --> 2:48:29.560 was wrong. 2:48:29.800 --> 2:48:33.039 And there's yeah, there's this more core issue that people 2:48:33.040 --> 2:48:36.879 did not get to actually pick the Democratic nominee, and 2:48:36.920 --> 2:48:39.520 the Democratic nominee had a lot of issues and direct 2:48:39.560 --> 2:48:43.480 ties to the many failures of the Biden administration, which 2:48:43.480 --> 2:48:44.920 brings us to our final section. 2:48:44.680 --> 2:48:45.680 Here, I'm afraid. 2:48:46.600 --> 2:48:52.720 Based on three polling studies, the campaign pollsters concluded that 2:48:52.800 --> 2:48:55.720 it was quote important for the vice president to find 2:48:55.920 --> 2:48:59.520 separation from the status quo. They recognized voters were looking 2:48:59.520 --> 2:49:01.760 for change and felt it was necessary to find ways 2:49:01.760 --> 2:49:05.240 to demonstrate how a Harris Wall's administration would be more 2:49:05.280 --> 2:49:09.400 effective in addressing American needs. The pollsters acknowledged the loyalty 2:49:09.440 --> 2:49:13.320 demonstrated by the Vice president, but also suggested it was 2:49:13.440 --> 2:49:18.280 contrary to strong signals in their data about how even 2:49:18.400 --> 2:49:22.800 measured breaks would help position the vice president to win unquote, 2:49:23.520 --> 2:49:27.560 and the Vice President Harris did not do these measured breaks. 2:49:27.600 --> 2:49:31.000 She remained extremely loyal to the legacy of the Biden 2:49:31.040 --> 2:49:33.920 administration while she was vice president and while she was 2:49:33.959 --> 2:49:37.879 campaigning for president in twenty twenty four. Now. These campaign 2:49:37.920 --> 2:49:41.200 posters were also part of discussions on how to respond 2:49:41.480 --> 2:49:45.440 to Trump attack ads. Quote. In particular, the attack ad 2:49:45.480 --> 2:49:50.200 focused on the Vice president's prior statements on transgendered Americans. 2:49:50.320 --> 2:49:54.080 You can't call them that, bro. They all recognized the 2:49:54.120 --> 2:49:58.040 attack as very effective and felt that campaign was boxed in. 2:49:58.640 --> 2:50:00.440 The ad was a video of her set saying what 2:50:00.640 --> 2:50:03.360 she said, and it was framed as an attack on 2:50:03.400 --> 2:50:07.199 her economic priorities. If the Vice president would not change 2:50:07.200 --> 2:50:10.320 her position, and she did not, then there was nothing 2:50:10.520 --> 2:50:15.480 which would have worked as a response quote. The polling 2:50:15.480 --> 2:50:18.640 sections also missing its conclusion but let's get into that 2:50:18.720 --> 2:50:22.680 a little bit more. Okay, Before the autopsy was released, 2:50:22.920 --> 2:50:25.800 Rob Flattery, I'm gonna say flattery. I don't know what 2:50:25.840 --> 2:50:28.760 it actually is, but I'm calling it flattery. He was 2:50:28.840 --> 2:50:31.840 Harris's deputy campaign manager, and he wrote an article in 2:50:31.879 --> 2:50:35.920 The Bulwark about what he said in his autopsy interview, 2:50:36.280 --> 2:50:38.680 also noting he was one of the few Harris staffers 2:50:38.680 --> 2:50:42.280 who was actually interviewed. Flattery argued the main issue the 2:50:42.280 --> 2:50:46.160 twenty twenty four campaign was branding, and he clarified that 2:50:46.280 --> 2:50:50.240 the Kamala Is for the Them ad was not actually 2:50:50.280 --> 2:50:53.320 the most effective attack ad according to campaign data. It 2:50:53.400 --> 2:50:56.840 was the Trump ad from July twenty twenty four, with 2:50:56.920 --> 2:51:01.080 clips of Harris saying that quote unquote, biden is working. 2:51:01.800 --> 2:51:05.080 Flattery wrote that quote The brilliance of the Trump team's 2:51:05.120 --> 2:51:08.320 ad strategy was that everything was a proof point that 2:51:08.440 --> 2:51:12.440 leveled up to a core narrative. She cares about liberal shit, 2:51:12.680 --> 2:51:15.640 not you, her position on immigrants. She's focused on the 2:51:15.640 --> 2:51:19.720 wrong thing, Harris talking about transprisoners, focused on the wrong thing, 2:51:20.360 --> 2:51:23.760 says Bidenomics is working. Focused on the wrong stuff. It 2:51:23.800 --> 2:51:27.360 was brands, not messages. The Trans ad worked because of 2:51:27.400 --> 2:51:31.600 what it implied, not what it's said. Unquote. Rob Flattery, 2:51:31.840 --> 2:51:35.480 like the autopsy, insists that there was no way to 2:51:35.640 --> 2:51:39.119 directly respond to the Kamala is for the them Trump 2:51:39.160 --> 2:51:42.560 is for you ad, claiming that they tested five to 2:51:42.600 --> 2:51:46.000 six response ads against ads about the economy, and the 2:51:46.040 --> 2:51:50.080 economy ones tested better. Quote. So, not wanting to make 2:51:50.200 --> 2:51:52.840 the fight about an issue we were losing, we talked 2:51:52.840 --> 2:51:56.040 about the economy more a literal rebuttal would have been 2:51:56.080 --> 2:51:59.560 a loser. I absolutely stand by this decision. Look at 2:51:59.560 --> 2:52:02.279 the twenty time twenty five elections in Virginia, where Republicans 2:52:02.320 --> 2:52:05.720 made trans issues the core of their advertising strategy. It 2:52:05.800 --> 2:52:11.080 failed because voters didn't find it relevant. Except that's exactly 2:52:11.080 --> 2:52:14.360 what Trump did with the they them ad. That was 2:52:14.720 --> 2:52:18.080 a big part of his ad strategy as well. So 2:52:18.280 --> 2:52:22.760 there's this sort of learned helplessness with how to address 2:52:23.000 --> 2:52:25.520 both like the trans issues, as well as the Israel 2:52:25.560 --> 2:52:28.360 Palestine stuff, which we'll get to in one second. Like 2:52:28.800 --> 2:52:33.280 Harris not seriously addressing that they them add also did 2:52:33.320 --> 2:52:36.520 not seem to help. And you don't need to run 2:52:36.600 --> 2:52:41.160 an ad directly opposing that slop, but through media appearances 2:52:41.280 --> 2:52:45.000 you can pull the old uno reverso while affirming that 2:52:45.040 --> 2:52:47.080 you'll stand up for the rights of all Americans, no 2:52:47.160 --> 2:52:50.760 matter their gender or race, and that includes making health 2:52:50.760 --> 2:52:53.520 care more affordable and more accessible. And it's Trump and 2:52:53.560 --> 2:52:57.160 the Republicans who are focusing on bullying a disadvantage small 2:52:57.200 --> 2:53:00.360 minority of Americans to distract from the fact that they 2:53:00.440 --> 2:53:03.480 have no real economic plan. You can talk about the 2:53:03.520 --> 2:53:07.520 economy while still standing up for trans people. It doesn't 2:53:07.520 --> 2:53:10.600 need to be the focus of your campaign, but it's 2:53:10.600 --> 2:53:13.400 sure as hell was a key focus of Trump's campaign, 2:53:13.840 --> 2:53:17.400 and you not addressing it did not help and contributed 2:53:17.440 --> 2:53:21.119 to real harm and negative polarization against trans people. 2:53:21.800 --> 2:53:24.760 Yeah, I mean a trans person did not speak at 2:53:24.800 --> 2:53:28.879 the twenty twenty four DNC, which was weird and not normal. 2:53:29.360 --> 2:53:32.440 Trans people have spoken at many DNC conventions in the past, 2:53:32.959 --> 2:53:36.440 but in the twenty twenty four nope, and trans issues 2:53:36.480 --> 2:53:40.560 were barely even mentioned, largely absent. 2:53:40.879 --> 2:53:42.600 And like, it doesn't need to be a key issue, 2:53:42.879 --> 2:53:45.920 but the fact that Republicans made it a key issue 2:53:46.240 --> 2:53:48.520 means that it is worth addressing in some way and 2:53:48.600 --> 2:53:50.959 affirming that you will actually stand up for the rights 2:53:51.000 --> 2:53:55.160 of trans people beyond making very kind of vague, confusing 2:53:55.200 --> 2:53:59.280 statements like Commula made that she'll follow the law, which 2:53:59.440 --> 2:54:02.840 just does not make sense to anyone. This sort of 2:54:03.080 --> 2:54:06.400 learned helplessness around like not being able to address these issues. 2:54:06.720 --> 2:54:09.800 This is the same thing with Palestine. Yes, altering course 2:54:09.959 --> 2:54:14.400 is simply not considered possible, and in part with Palestine, 2:54:14.640 --> 2:54:19.360 because Harris was the vice president, Flattery wrote quote. Given 2:54:19.400 --> 2:54:23.560 the Biden administration's position, Gaza was an impossible issue to 2:54:23.600 --> 2:54:28.359 communicate around. Protesters drove coverage away from campaign events, Digital 2:54:28.400 --> 2:54:32.080 creators or even supporters were afraid to say anything nice 2:54:32.080 --> 2:54:35.840 about Biden because their comments sections would get rocked. For 2:54:36.000 --> 2:54:39.119 many voters, watching the horrific, painful footage out of Gaza, 2:54:39.440 --> 2:54:42.760 it became a moral question one we didn't have a 2:54:42.879 --> 2:54:46.879 good answer for in ways that may not be reflected 2:54:46.920 --> 2:54:51.360 in a poll. It meaningfully reduced enthusiasm. As one person 2:54:51.360 --> 2:54:54.480 from the campaign told me, we spent the entire election 2:54:54.640 --> 2:54:57.160 with a giant rotting fish around our necks. 2:54:57.920 --> 2:55:00.160 Is Joe Biden the giant rotting. 2:55:00.879 --> 2:55:03.760 Well no, I mean it's in part, yes, But like 2:55:04.240 --> 2:55:07.039 the genocide in Gaza, like like this, like you know, 2:55:07.160 --> 2:55:08.600 well documented mass death. 2:55:08.760 --> 2:55:11.440 They didn't let a Palestinian person speak at the DNC 2:55:11.600 --> 2:55:14.400 either they had. They had one panel on it which 2:55:14.400 --> 2:55:18.240 I attended. It was phenomenal. It was the largest attended 2:55:18.640 --> 2:55:21.800 panel of the convention. And then they refuse to let 2:55:21.800 --> 2:55:23.279 a Palestinian person speak. 2:55:23.840 --> 2:55:26.520 I mean, and even beyond just letting people speak, it's 2:55:26.560 --> 2:55:29.720 like there was no real plan to actually stop this 2:55:29.840 --> 2:55:32.400 from happening. Like you can you can cut off a Israel. 2:55:32.440 --> 2:55:35.440 You can't do serious things. You can you cannot send 2:55:35.480 --> 2:55:37.760 them weapons, you can take away weapons. You can do 2:55:37.879 --> 2:55:41.959 more things. As you've seen, America is not afraid to 2:55:42.040 --> 2:55:45.640 occupy territories in that region. You could literally invade and 2:55:45.640 --> 2:55:48.280 be like, no, you have to stop. But like the 2:55:48.640 --> 2:55:53.000 not being able to even consider that, you could have 2:55:53.120 --> 2:55:57.440 an answer for this moral question, you could just change 2:55:57.480 --> 2:56:00.320 your position, not being able to even consider that. The 2:56:00.520 --> 2:56:04.760 compounding difficulty of Harris being the VP role made this 2:56:04.879 --> 2:56:09.039 the giant rotting fish around the campaign's neck. Yeah, and 2:56:09.080 --> 2:56:11.960 the fact that the autopsy does not actually address this 2:56:12.040 --> 2:56:15.840 question and flattery does, I think is another damning indictment 2:56:15.920 --> 2:56:19.560 against the autopsy and its sheering competence of the deputy 2:56:19.720 --> 2:56:24.480 campaign manager himself acknowledging that this was a serious, a 2:56:24.640 --> 2:56:29.560 serious issue that meaningfully reduced enthusiasm. And like the whole 2:56:29.600 --> 2:56:32.440 deal in this Bulwark article is that politics is now 2:56:32.480 --> 2:56:36.560 about brands, not messages. And this is kind of silly, right, 2:56:36.560 --> 2:56:39.840 because these two things are related. Yeah, but the brand 2:56:39.879 --> 2:56:42.640 of the Harris campaign was largely defined as not being 2:56:42.680 --> 2:56:45.840 Trump and just being more of the same, which in 2:56:45.879 --> 2:56:50.320 twenty twenty four wasn't exactly great. No, another of Trump's 2:56:50.320 --> 2:56:52.600 main ads featured a clip of Harris saying that she 2:56:52.680 --> 2:56:56.240 wouldn't have done anything different from Biden. So the branding 2:56:56.240 --> 2:57:01.040 issue certainly wasn't helped by the campaign's unwillingness to sever 2:57:01.200 --> 2:57:05.280 ties with Biden and criticize his policy. No Flattery argues 2:57:05.320 --> 2:57:07.960 that would have been hard, if not impossible, because of 2:57:08.040 --> 2:57:10.920 Kamala's position as sitting vice president. If she doesn't go 2:57:11.000 --> 2:57:13.879 against Biden's policy, it puts fractures within the party and 2:57:13.879 --> 2:57:17.720 the White House itself. But also it would demonstrate how 2:57:17.760 --> 2:57:21.760 she effectively held no power as vice president. So there 2:57:21.800 --> 2:57:24.200 is these issues. But if you actually have principles that 2:57:24.240 --> 2:57:26.400 would not actually be an issue. You could just blaze 2:57:26.440 --> 2:57:29.520 through that. You could actually take the real correct stance 2:57:30.000 --> 2:57:34.320 on issues like Palestine, and acknowledged the massive failures that 2:57:34.360 --> 2:57:37.800 the administration had, and you are now going against the 2:57:37.840 --> 2:57:41.240 status quo of the administration despite being the vice president. Right, 2:57:41.280 --> 2:57:44.560 that could have been an option one that was just 2:57:44.600 --> 2:57:46.720 never actually considered for whatever reason. 2:57:47.200 --> 2:57:51.160 Right, I mean, statistically speaking, at that time, Joe Biden 2:57:52.040 --> 2:57:54.880 had a very low approval rating. And so you know, 2:57:55.160 --> 2:57:59.439 Kamala running as the pro Joe candidate doesn't really resonate 2:57:59.680 --> 2:58:01.880 with voters because they're unhappy. 2:58:02.240 --> 2:58:05.440 Yeah, exactly right. And if your message is just more 2:58:05.480 --> 2:58:08.000 of the same, then it seems pretty easy for your 2:58:08.200 --> 2:58:10.680 opponents to define what your brand is. 2:58:11.320 --> 2:58:13.720 And whenever she tried to say, you know, I'm going 2:58:13.800 --> 2:58:15.960 to change this, I'm going to change that, they were like, 2:58:16.760 --> 2:58:18.120 but you're in office now. 2:58:19.160 --> 2:58:24.800 Like Harris herself did not actually campaign on like progressive 2:58:24.800 --> 2:58:27.680 immigration policies, She did not campaign on trends rights, she 2:58:27.680 --> 2:58:32.360 didn't campaign on identity politics. No, but in absence of 2:58:32.440 --> 2:58:35.560 a real message, it's all too easy to associate the 2:58:35.600 --> 2:58:39.520 campaign with the concerns of like liberal elites disconnected from 2:58:39.520 --> 2:58:44.040 the economic realities of most Americans, and her previous statements 2:58:44.400 --> 2:58:47.400 on Bidenomics and how she wouldn't have done anything differently 2:58:47.879 --> 2:58:52.960 absolutely compounded this. Flattery wrote that the campaign underestimated just 2:58:53.000 --> 2:58:57.680 how disillusioned people were and the widespread degree of anti institutionalism. 2:58:58.200 --> 2:59:02.080 But unlike the autopsy, he at least acknowledges Biden should 2:59:02.080 --> 2:59:04.760 have never have run for reelection in the first place, 2:59:05.200 --> 2:59:08.200 and that Democrats should have run a real primary, which 2:59:08.240 --> 2:59:10.560 would have provided an opportunity to actually address all of 2:59:10.600 --> 2:59:16.160 these issues about feeling tied to the death worshiping aspects 2:59:16.200 --> 2:59:21.080 of the Biden administration with Kamala being the VP. Yeah. Now, 2:59:21.120 --> 2:59:24.279 speaking of the autopsy, let's get to the final sections 2:59:24.320 --> 2:59:27.080 of the autopsy. Yeah. Near the end of the report, 2:59:27.400 --> 2:59:32.200 a paragraph reads, building to win requires new thinking, and 2:59:32.240 --> 2:59:35.520 building to last requires thinking about more than the next election. 2:59:35.879 --> 2:59:39.520 It requires finding the best way to connect with the 2:59:39.640 --> 2:59:42.840 right voters in the right places. And twenty twenty four 2:59:42.879 --> 2:59:46.440 has proven anything. There is enough money to do it 2:59:46.520 --> 2:59:49.240 all the right way. And that's kind of the end. 2:59:49.560 --> 2:59:54.840 That's not the conclusion of the report because the final 2:59:54.879 --> 2:59:59.199 conclusion section is left blank. Super it's missing as well, 2:59:59.600 --> 3:00:02.200 So that sentence is kind of the last piece of 3:00:02.280 --> 3:00:06.320 analysis because it actually has no conclusion. I think that's 3:00:06.320 --> 3:00:10.279 the perfect the perfect representation of what this report is 3:00:10.280 --> 3:00:12.160 is that it does not have a conclusion. It's literally 3:00:12.160 --> 3:00:15.560 missing the conclusion. There is very little you can actually 3:00:15.640 --> 3:00:20.360 take away from this report positively to improve election strategy 3:00:20.400 --> 3:00:24.879 going forward, because there is no conclusion anyway. That's the 3:00:24.959 --> 3:00:28.920 twenty twenty four autopsy that turns out was real, but 3:00:29.040 --> 3:00:30.000 was just really bad. 3:00:30.600 --> 3:00:34.360 And didn't address anything real. 3:00:34.760 --> 3:00:37.920 No, did not address what I would argue were the 3:00:38.000 --> 3:00:42.760 key issues affecting the campaign, Biden's decision to run again, 3:00:42.959 --> 3:00:47.640 his age, the lack of a primary, and Israel Palestine. 3:00:47.760 --> 3:00:52.040 Yeah, that and honestly, people like to choose their candidate 3:00:52.800 --> 3:00:54.280 in a democracy. 3:00:53.760 --> 3:00:58.000 Really, and this entire thing really. 3:00:58.080 --> 3:01:02.840 Is very frustrating because who knows when a nonsense male 3:01:03.640 --> 3:01:06.160 who will be the candidate again after that? 3:01:08.120 --> 3:01:12.240 Yeah, I mean, at this point, I think anyone who 3:01:12.240 --> 3:01:16.320 can address serious economic as well as these moral issues 3:01:16.360 --> 3:01:19.520 read like imperialism in the US military, it's going to 3:01:19.760 --> 3:01:24.119 serve a better chance. Yeah, because that is the situation 3:01:24.280 --> 3:01:25.880 we have we have found ourselves in. 3:01:26.320 --> 3:01:31.039 Yeah, the Democratic National Committee, it's a bummer. 3:01:44.160 --> 3:01:46.480 Hello everyone, and welcome to it could happen here. My 3:01:46.600 --> 3:01:49.120 name is Daniel Kurd. I'm a researcher and analyst of 3:01:49.120 --> 3:01:52.760 Arab and Tastinian politics, and today I'm joined by doctor Nagarazavi. 3:01:53.400 --> 3:01:56.360 She is a political anthropologist at the I'm going to 3:01:56.400 --> 3:02:00.440 get this right Massavar Rahmani Center for Iran and Persian 3:02:00.440 --> 3:02:03.640 Gulf Studies at Princeton University, and her work is on 3:02:03.680 --> 3:02:07.359 the role of think tanks in shaping US security policies towards. 3:02:07.160 --> 3:02:08.600 The Middle East and Iran specifically. 3:02:09.280 --> 3:02:12.200 And I've recently had the pleasure of being at a 3:02:12.360 --> 3:02:15.920 symposium with doctor Rosavi, and I thought she would be 3:02:16.000 --> 3:02:19.120 a really welcome viewpoint for our audience. 3:02:19.280 --> 3:02:21.840 Thank you for joining us, Thanks so much for having me. 3:02:22.400 --> 3:02:26.039 So, I think in regards to the war on Iran, 3:02:26.720 --> 3:02:28.760 there's been such a focus on the straight up her 3:02:28.840 --> 3:02:32.480 moves and the economic impact of that that conditions on 3:02:32.520 --> 3:02:35.000 the ground have really slipped from our radars. Like I 3:02:35.040 --> 3:02:36.680 don't see it as often, and I think I'm a 3:02:36.760 --> 3:02:37.960 very well plugged in person. 3:02:38.520 --> 3:02:39.879 So can we start there. 3:02:39.920 --> 3:02:41.840 Can you tell us more about the situation and what 3:02:41.840 --> 3:02:44.080 it's like for like the average Iranian right now? 3:02:44.640 --> 3:02:46.680 Yeah, thank you so much for leading with that, because 3:02:46.680 --> 3:02:51.040 I do think that is absolutely missing in not only 3:02:51.840 --> 3:02:55.600 mainstream media but in much of the policy discussions that 3:02:55.720 --> 3:02:59.840 both of us follow closely. It's very bad on like 3:03:00.000 --> 3:03:06.120 around for ordinary Iranians on all fronts. Economically, it is 3:03:07.200 --> 3:03:11.720 very dire at the moment. Inflation is now at unbelievably 3:03:11.800 --> 3:03:17.400 high rates. The level of damage that happened to the country, 3:03:17.400 --> 3:03:20.400 the physical damage cause a lot of people to lose 3:03:20.480 --> 3:03:24.720 their jobs, if not their lives, because they hit hospitals, 3:03:24.800 --> 3:03:27.680 they hit schools, they hit factories. These are places where 3:03:27.680 --> 3:03:30.199 people work, So now all of those. 3:03:30.040 --> 3:03:31.280 People are without a job. 3:03:31.959 --> 3:03:36.760 The cost of living again has skyrocketed. People who dependent 3:03:36.840 --> 3:03:40.160 on the internet somehow to do their work are also 3:03:40.360 --> 3:03:43.040 now out of a job because it's been the longest 3:03:43.080 --> 3:03:47.720 internet shut down in Iran's history at this point. So 3:03:47.920 --> 3:03:52.199 that's the economic aspect that implicates every single person inside 3:03:52.240 --> 3:03:55.280 iron at the moment. And we're hearing that even people 3:03:55.360 --> 3:03:58.400 can't exchange the dollar, so things are really really bad 3:03:58.760 --> 3:04:01.640 at this point. And then you add on the layer 3:04:01.720 --> 3:04:04.200 of the number of people who have been killed. By 3:04:04.240 --> 3:04:08.080 the latest count I think I saw seventeen hundred civilians 3:04:08.080 --> 3:04:12.039 have been killed. Three point five million Iranians were displaced, 3:04:12.400 --> 3:04:14.920 and this was mainly people trying to escape major city 3:04:14.959 --> 3:04:18.480 centers they went to areas that were very under resource 3:04:18.879 --> 3:04:22.920 and so they were also suffering from lack of water 3:04:22.959 --> 3:04:26.800 and electricity wherever they were going. Those people have now 3:04:27.240 --> 3:04:31.360 slowly been coming back to the major cities. Many more 3:04:31.440 --> 3:04:34.240 thousands of people were injured or Maine. And then of 3:04:34.280 --> 3:04:39.760 course the entire population has been terrorized by this war 3:04:39.840 --> 3:04:43.680 and the uncertainty of whether it's going to start again. 3:04:43.800 --> 3:04:47.000 I mean, the threats that Trump has given up until 3:04:47.080 --> 3:04:50.520 just a few hours ago, was at any moment the 3:04:50.560 --> 3:04:53.600 bombings could start again. And then lastly, I want to 3:04:53.600 --> 3:04:56.880 say in terms of I touched on the infrastructure, but 3:04:57.400 --> 3:05:02.920 they hit desalination plants, they hit hospitals, they hit oil depots. 3:05:03.360 --> 3:05:06.640 People's quality of life right now inside Iran is pretty bad. 3:05:06.840 --> 3:05:07.320 And then you. 3:05:07.320 --> 3:05:12.280 Layer onto that a now even more repressive government that 3:05:12.400 --> 3:05:15.880 has been executing people they accuse of being traders at 3:05:16.000 --> 3:05:20.400 unbelievable rates, a total clamp down on levels we haven't 3:05:20.440 --> 3:05:25.080 seen previously. So again, short story, it's very bad inside 3:05:25.080 --> 3:05:25.840 of Iran right now. 3:05:26.560 --> 3:05:30.760 Yeah, I really wanted to make sure that people got 3:05:30.800 --> 3:05:33.760 that full scope. You know, we forget that there's an 3:05:33.800 --> 3:05:37.680 internet blackout, We forget that Iranians have already dealt with 3:05:38.040 --> 3:05:41.600 such a repressive crackdown right before the war started. You know, 3:05:41.640 --> 3:05:43.560 like I want people to make the connection that like 3:05:44.200 --> 3:05:47.720 conditions are super super dire. You know, since you did 3:05:47.879 --> 3:05:50.879 mention that point, maybe we can elaborate a little bit. 3:05:51.360 --> 3:05:55.480 How do you think the Iranian regime is using this moment? 3:05:55.560 --> 3:05:58.120 I know, short term they are utilizing it to just 3:05:58.120 --> 3:06:01.160 crack down on any dissent, but how do you think 3:06:01.240 --> 3:06:03.800 it'll be used kind of medium and long term? 3:06:04.560 --> 3:06:07.960 Yeah, so, you know, in our line of work, it's 3:06:08.000 --> 3:06:11.240 always hard to make predictions, but we can use past 3:06:11.520 --> 3:06:16.360 experiences as a somewhat of a guide here. So just 3:06:16.400 --> 3:06:19.840 to remind your listeners, in January there was a major 3:06:19.920 --> 3:06:23.160 uprising of Iranians against their government and there was one 3:06:23.200 --> 3:06:27.640 of the most massive crackdowns since the nineteen eighties when 3:06:27.680 --> 3:06:32.039 there was massacre against political dissidents, and so going into this. 3:06:32.040 --> 3:06:36.800 War, there was already one of the most brutal crackdowns happening. 3:06:37.600 --> 3:06:42.039 And then what people who are much more knowledgeable about 3:06:42.040 --> 3:06:46.480 irans domestic politics are telling me is that the people 3:06:46.480 --> 3:06:50.080 who are essentially replacing the leaders that were killed by 3:06:50.200 --> 3:06:55.640 US Israeli strikes are more hardliner and are more aligned 3:06:55.879 --> 3:07:01.360 with the hard line factions of the IRGC Islamic Revolutionary 3:07:01.360 --> 3:07:04.800 Guard Corps, which is one branch of the military in 3:07:04.840 --> 3:07:07.440 Iran that is very, very powerful and is loyal to 3:07:07.600 --> 3:07:10.160 the Supreme Leader, who is now the son of the 3:07:10.200 --> 3:07:13.320 previous Supreme Leader who was killed on the first day 3:07:13.320 --> 3:07:17.880 of the war actually, and so using the last time 3:07:18.280 --> 3:07:20.360 Iran was at a war, which was in the Iran 3:07:20.400 --> 3:07:23.800 Iraq War, repression is going to get so much worse 3:07:24.240 --> 3:07:28.400 under war conditions because anyone who they don't like or 3:07:28.440 --> 3:07:31.480 who anyone who speaks out can then be made a 3:07:31.520 --> 3:07:35.400 trader and an enemy of the Iranian people, and so 3:07:35.440 --> 3:07:40.800 they can use warfare as the grounds to essentially go 3:07:40.959 --> 3:07:43.360 even further in their oppression. And that's what a lot 3:07:43.400 --> 3:07:46.520 of human rights activists and people on the ground are 3:07:46.520 --> 3:07:47.119 worried about. 3:07:48.000 --> 3:07:50.640 Yeah, I also read a really interesting article I'll put 3:07:50.680 --> 3:07:55.200 in the show notes about the popular mobilization that the 3:07:55.240 --> 3:07:59.640 Iranian regime has like really fostered over many years to 3:07:59.680 --> 3:08:03.520 revert ways, whether it's through inserting you know, their forces 3:08:03.520 --> 3:08:07.879 in universities or through particular kinds of cultural practices around 3:08:07.879 --> 3:08:10.119 like martyrs and things like that. So, like the Iranian 3:08:10.160 --> 3:08:13.400 regime is also kind of mobilizing its supporters in a 3:08:13.440 --> 3:08:15.680 way that I mean, obviously for people who like want 3:08:15.680 --> 3:08:18.120 democracy and freedom like this is this is the worst 3:08:18.120 --> 3:08:20.400 case scenario we as in the United States. 3:08:21.000 --> 3:08:23.600 I shouldn't take responsibility for that at all, but neither 3:08:23.640 --> 3:08:25.920 of us should. Yeah, neither really it's not. 3:08:25.959 --> 3:08:28.879 It's not our fault, but we really have you know, 3:08:29.240 --> 3:08:31.800 given the worst actors a huge victory. 3:08:32.040 --> 3:08:34.519 And also to that point, if you don't mind me jumping. 3:08:34.240 --> 3:08:36.240 In, yeah, yeah, of course, it's also you. 3:08:36.200 --> 3:08:40.120 Know, triggered nationalism among segments of the population. The war 3:08:40.240 --> 3:08:41.240 has made. 3:08:41.040 --> 3:08:44.520 Many people who were even protesting in January against the 3:08:44.520 --> 3:08:47.720 government now coming out and defending at least not the 3:08:48.040 --> 3:08:50.920 sovereignty of their country or the integrity of their country. 3:08:51.080 --> 3:08:52.000 I mean, makes sense. 3:08:52.160 --> 3:08:57.120 Yeah, So there's all these strange now alliances forming, and 3:08:57.160 --> 3:09:00.400 the government is actually playing some parts of it smartly, 3:09:00.480 --> 3:09:05.160 where you'll see them having women without hit job coming 3:09:05.200 --> 3:09:09.960 to pro government rallies and having a Lebanese woman singer's 3:09:10.160 --> 3:09:12.959 voice at their rallies, which, for those of you who 3:09:13.040 --> 3:09:15.600 don't know, women are not allowed to sing as solo 3:09:16.040 --> 3:09:17.279 artists in Iran. 3:09:17.280 --> 3:09:18.400 They can be part of a chorus. 3:09:19.040 --> 3:09:23.600 So they're also playing this interesting imaging game where they 3:09:23.640 --> 3:09:27.400 want to also show, look, we can also be open 3:09:27.440 --> 3:09:31.879 and inclusive at the same time that they're executing people 3:09:31.920 --> 3:09:34.280 at the highest rates since the nineteen eighties. 3:09:35.280 --> 3:09:36.920 Yeah, I'm going to have to look for that video 3:09:36.959 --> 3:09:51.800 of the Lebanese singer. So we participated, both. 3:09:51.680 --> 3:09:54.440 Of us in a symposium at Princeton I think was 3:09:54.440 --> 3:09:57.400 titled like the Long Arch of Fascism. Very interesting set 3:09:57.440 --> 3:10:01.200 of presentations, and your presentation was about the different kind 3:10:01.200 --> 3:10:04.440 of political strands that facilitated this war underund So I 3:10:04.560 --> 3:10:07.120 just wanted to just start off with could you outline 3:10:07.200 --> 3:10:09.720 the argument of your presentation for our listeners. 3:10:10.200 --> 3:10:10.520 Yes. 3:10:10.879 --> 3:10:15.440 What I argued in the conference, which was fantastic and 3:10:15.600 --> 3:10:18.000 I really learned so much from your presentation as well, 3:10:18.760 --> 3:10:21.600 was the idea that this war was made possible in 3:10:21.600 --> 3:10:27.199 a sense because several different strands of fascism have come 3:10:27.240 --> 3:10:30.400 together in this moment. And I called it converging fascisms, 3:10:31.120 --> 3:10:33.119 just to go quickly through it, because I don't want 3:10:33.160 --> 3:10:36.320 to droll on and on. But the idea is that 3:10:36.480 --> 3:10:40.800 one of the core strands has been this growing anti 3:10:40.920 --> 3:10:47.000 Muslim sentiment that really goes across so many different fascist 3:10:47.080 --> 3:10:49.520 movements that we see, whether it's the far right in 3:10:49.600 --> 3:10:53.000 Europe here in the United States, Islamophobia is so central, 3:10:53.000 --> 3:10:56.240 and of course the shootings at the mosque in San 3:10:56.280 --> 3:10:59.760 Diego is just the latest of long string of violence 3:11:00.400 --> 3:11:06.760 the Hindutfa in India, anti Muslim sentiments racisms is central 3:11:07.200 --> 3:11:09.280 to the fascism that we see there. And then of 3:11:09.320 --> 3:11:13.240 course in Israel that's been a core element of their 3:11:13.320 --> 3:11:18.480 anti Palestinian racism generally, but also specifically anti Muslim racism. 3:11:18.680 --> 3:11:21.760 So that's kind of the big strand that I identified 3:11:22.000 --> 3:11:24.959 as coming together. And within that there's an inflection of 3:11:25.000 --> 3:11:26.800 anti Shia sentiment. 3:11:27.120 --> 3:11:29.720 And there's lots of scholars who have talked about. 3:11:29.440 --> 3:11:33.440 How really the anti Muslim project starts with the seventy 3:11:33.520 --> 3:11:38.480 nine Revolution, this like modern manifestation of it, and so 3:11:38.520 --> 3:11:41.800 it's always had this anti Shia sentiment to it. 3:11:42.280 --> 3:11:44.560 Inflection, Yeah, inflection, thank you. 3:11:45.280 --> 3:11:48.840 The second strand that I wanted to highlight was this 3:11:49.160 --> 3:11:55.840 white supremacy and aryanism, which is interesting because it actually 3:11:56.600 --> 3:12:01.480 loops in the far right of Iran in actors and 3:12:01.560 --> 3:12:05.640 Iranian diasporic actors in particular, those that are tied to 3:12:06.360 --> 3:12:10.679 the former Shah of Iran's son, Riza Pahavi. 3:12:10.720 --> 3:12:15.480 Who are really linking they're wanting to overthrow the regime 3:12:15.520 --> 3:12:21.640 in Iran to restoring this Aryan nation that existed before 3:12:21.920 --> 3:12:23.360 and this is their word, it's not mine. 3:12:23.520 --> 3:12:27.640 The Arab invasion of Islam, and this is really important 3:12:27.680 --> 3:12:31.640 for the far right movement that supported this invasion was 3:12:31.680 --> 3:12:35.120 this idea that they're going to save Iran from Islam, 3:12:35.440 --> 3:12:39.920 which again the Islamophobia, but also the racialized violence against 3:12:40.040 --> 3:12:45.000 Arabs in the region and particularly against Palestinians. There's this 3:12:45.240 --> 3:12:50.480 very strong anti Palestinian current in this movement that I'm 3:12:50.480 --> 3:12:51.320 talking about. 3:12:51.160 --> 3:12:53.759 Where they are actively recruiting. 3:12:53.400 --> 3:12:58.400 And aligning themselves with Israel in the genocide, which is 3:12:58.600 --> 3:13:01.440 so horrible. The third strand that I wanted to talk 3:13:01.480 --> 3:13:06.440 about was settler colonialism and nativism. And I think your 3:13:06.760 --> 3:13:09.520 listeners probably know enough about this, but this is essentially 3:13:09.560 --> 3:13:14.520 the bringing together of both the settler colonial violence that 3:13:14.520 --> 3:13:17.000 we see in Israel, the United States, Australia, et cetera, 3:13:17.360 --> 3:13:22.000 with the anti immigrant sentiment that has swept across much 3:13:22.000 --> 3:13:26.560 of the world, including places like South Africa. Then the 3:13:26.600 --> 3:13:30.199 next brand that I talk about is nostalgic paternalism. 3:13:30.640 --> 3:13:33.160 I call it that you always need a little bit 3:13:33.200 --> 3:13:36.000 of pictriarchy, right right, Yeah. 3:13:35.760 --> 3:13:39.480 And it's basically like the people who call Trump daddy. 3:13:39.840 --> 3:13:43.959 You know, this idea that we need some strong man 3:13:44.000 --> 3:13:45.240 in our lives, and like. 3:13:45.240 --> 3:13:46.640 Egyptians have this with CC. 3:13:47.440 --> 3:13:49.480 You know this this idea that we just need this 3:13:49.640 --> 3:13:56.160 strong man to guide us forward is so dominant in 3:13:56.320 --> 3:13:58.080 a lot of these fascist groups. 3:13:58.360 --> 3:14:01.840 Mody is somebody's you know, paternal figure. 3:14:01.920 --> 3:14:06.680 And again, Razapadavi, the self proclaimed leader of the Iranian 3:14:07.320 --> 3:14:12.240 opposition in exile, has numerous times called himself the father 3:14:12.560 --> 3:14:16.800 of the Iranian people, and he's used really cringe language 3:14:16.879 --> 3:14:19.800 around how Iran is this abused woman and he's going 3:14:19.879 --> 3:14:23.000 to come in and save it, and completely out of 3:14:23.080 --> 3:14:26.879 touch with this amazing feminist movement that came out of 3:14:26.920 --> 3:14:31.080 Iran organically in twenty twenty two called the woman Like 3:14:31.160 --> 3:14:35.880 Freedom movement. He's put himself in direct opposition against that movement, 3:14:35.920 --> 3:14:39.600 which is wild to think about. And then the last 3:14:40.080 --> 3:14:42.920 kind of fascist strand that I identified, and this really 3:14:42.920 --> 3:14:45.600 also links to Naomi Klein's work, who was also at 3:14:45.640 --> 3:14:50.600 the conference, are these techno fascists and that's like the pallinteers, 3:14:50.920 --> 3:14:56.160 the anthropic dystopian future that a lot of these techno 3:14:56.240 --> 3:14:59.400 bros want to impose on the world that is very 3:14:59.400 --> 3:15:04.640 anti and so all of these strands come together at 3:15:04.640 --> 3:15:09.280 this very particular moment to justify and advance a war 3:15:09.720 --> 3:15:12.279 that some actors have wanted for a long time. 3:15:12.640 --> 3:15:13.640 And I say that it's. 3:15:13.680 --> 3:15:16.119 Kind of the blending of these at this particular moment 3:15:16.200 --> 3:15:17.360 that enabled this war. 3:15:18.040 --> 3:15:22.560 Yeah, I think the convergence is an apt description. And 3:15:22.640 --> 3:15:26.240 yet especially the patriarchal stuff, like cringe is the right word, 3:15:26.480 --> 3:15:31.000 Like it's extremely cringe, but also you know, dangerous that 3:15:31.200 --> 3:15:35.520 all of these things are coming together to facilitate this 3:15:35.680 --> 3:15:38.480 kind of violence, and then the war in Iran is 3:15:38.520 --> 3:15:42.760 facilitating the expansion of fascism here and vice versa. I 3:15:42.800 --> 3:15:45.720 wanted to just kind of get your opinion of something. 3:15:46.000 --> 3:15:47.840 I read this article by most of a by Umi 3:15:47.840 --> 3:15:51.640 in The Guardian about how in the United States what 3:15:51.760 --> 3:15:57.400 actually drives Islamophobia is at its root Antipastinian racism. I mean, 3:15:57.400 --> 3:15:59.600 and you certainly you know in your presentation talked about 3:15:59.600 --> 3:16:03.160 that and as well in the Iranian context, is the 3:16:03.200 --> 3:16:07.880 anti Palestinian racism kind of tangential to the kind of broader, 3:16:08.200 --> 3:16:09.439 racialized a Islamophobia. 3:16:10.080 --> 3:16:11.240 Yeah, how would you see that? 3:16:11.879 --> 3:16:14.200 Yeah, No, I agree to a large extent of it. 3:16:14.280 --> 3:16:20.279 Biomi is saying, I think anti Palestinian racism is central 3:16:20.600 --> 3:16:26.119 to how the opposition in Iran views itself. This hasn't 3:16:26.200 --> 3:16:29.320 been helped by the fact that the Iranian government, the 3:16:29.400 --> 3:16:35.080 current Iranian government has been at least materially and ideologically 3:16:35.600 --> 3:16:39.360 one of the biggest supporters of Palestinian liberation and has 3:16:39.560 --> 3:16:43.000 used the issue as many other dictators in the region have, 3:16:43.160 --> 3:16:47.199 by the way, has used the issue to actually suppress 3:16:47.240 --> 3:16:50.040 and oppress their own people. And so for a long 3:16:50.200 --> 3:16:54.240 time there was this sentiment inside Iran that the Iranian 3:16:54.280 --> 3:16:58.800 government is sending its resources, sending its weapons, making Uran 3:16:59.160 --> 3:17:04.520 an isolated rogue state on behalf of the Palestinians, while we, 3:17:04.879 --> 3:17:09.119 the Iranian people suffer, And so this created this people 3:17:09.200 --> 3:17:15.240 the people tension where anti Palestinian sentiment grew inside Iran 3:17:15.760 --> 3:17:19.160 and outside Iran obviously in these in these fascist movements, 3:17:19.560 --> 3:17:22.840 and then that feeds back into the Islamophobia is idea 3:17:23.000 --> 3:17:26.640 that we have nothing in common with the Palestinians because 3:17:26.640 --> 3:17:29.880 they're part of a religion that has also oppressed us, 3:17:29.959 --> 3:17:33.640 or a part of a ethnic group that has oppressed us. 3:17:34.120 --> 3:17:36.680 So it's its feedback loop. That's pretty horrible. 3:17:37.040 --> 3:17:39.640 Yeah, yeah, Yeah, that's good that we outline kind of 3:17:39.680 --> 3:17:43.360 the different mechanisms there. And it's really you know, it's 3:17:43.400 --> 3:17:47.400 it's so unfortunate because like you see polling of like Palestinians, 3:17:47.560 --> 3:17:50.920 and Palestinians were very much against what the Iranian regime 3:17:50.959 --> 3:17:54.000 did in Syria for example. Yeah, but like you said, 3:17:54.120 --> 3:17:58.320 there's a weaponization of these these different causes, just like 3:17:58.360 --> 3:18:01.080 the United States weaponizes the woman life freedom movement. 3:18:01.680 --> 3:18:04.359 You know, every regime uses things for its benefit. 3:18:05.080 --> 3:18:08.120 Just to add, like a slightly hopeful note is that 3:18:08.200 --> 3:18:11.480 I actually think the experience of this war has actually 3:18:11.640 --> 3:18:17.520 made more thoughtful Iranians see more of themselves now in 3:18:17.560 --> 3:18:21.560 the struggle of Palestinians. Interesting because they are actually seeing 3:18:22.200 --> 3:18:26.200 the hollowness and hypocrisy of what the US and Israel 3:18:26.440 --> 3:18:30.600 say and do, and so now I think there's been 3:18:30.640 --> 3:18:32.959 a little bit of a shift back in the direction 3:18:33.160 --> 3:18:35.480 of solidarity with the Palestinians. 3:18:35.560 --> 3:18:37.320 Oh that's excellent to hear. 3:18:39.400 --> 3:18:40.880 You know, we could talk about this all day, Like 3:18:40.920 --> 3:18:44.120 there's such a disconnect between diasporas and what happens on 3:18:44.160 --> 3:18:44.600 the ground. 3:18:44.720 --> 3:18:47.200 And this is not specific to the Iranians. 3:18:46.680 --> 3:18:50.680 But I imagine even if you lean that way, but 3:18:50.720 --> 3:18:53.560 you're in Iran being bombed by Israel, that's going to 3:18:53.640 --> 3:18:55.240 change your opinion in a way that like if you're 3:18:55.240 --> 3:18:57.400 in Los Angeles waving is Reelly flag, it's. 3:18:57.200 --> 3:19:00.160 A little bit different. Solutely, there's kind of stakes there. 3:19:00.879 --> 3:19:03.880 Yeah, yeah, you're like, who's the one dropping the bombs exactly? 3:19:04.080 --> 3:19:04.480 Yeah. 3:19:04.560 --> 3:19:07.440 Yeah, that is actually a very hopeful note before I 3:19:07.440 --> 3:19:20.080 turn into a less hopeful one. So your research is on, 3:19:20.520 --> 3:19:22.320 as I said earlier, like kind of the think tank 3:19:22.440 --> 3:19:25.840 landscape in DC. I remember, by the way, finding out 3:19:25.879 --> 3:19:28.160 about you back in the heydays of Twitter and being 3:19:28.200 --> 3:19:32.200 like somebody's studying think tanks, Like that's so cool, that's 3:19:32.240 --> 3:19:34.280 so clever, Like, yes, we should be studying them in 3:19:34.320 --> 3:19:36.959 this way. And basically, like your research is like the 3:19:37.040 --> 3:19:39.560 types of knowledge and the sources of knowledge that become 3:19:39.600 --> 3:19:42.640 hegemonic in these spaces, and then that of course impact 3:19:42.680 --> 3:19:46.040 American policy. So could you I know this is kind 3:19:46.080 --> 3:19:47.640 of a hard ask, but could you tell us like 3:19:47.680 --> 3:19:50.800 some basic findings of of your research the past couple 3:19:50.840 --> 3:19:51.199 of years. 3:19:51.520 --> 3:19:54.480 Yeah, so thanks for that setup, because I actually have 3:19:54.560 --> 3:19:56.600 a book coming out on this and it's called The 3:19:56.640 --> 3:20:01.720 Geopolitics of Expertise, and that's one of the central findings 3:20:02.280 --> 3:20:06.440 of the book is that this think tank landscape needs 3:20:06.480 --> 3:20:09.360 to be understood as a transnational space. That's one of 3:20:09.360 --> 3:20:14.080 the key findings in which a lot of actors and stakeholders, 3:20:14.520 --> 3:20:19.240 especially from the Middle East or Swana region, are invested 3:20:19.400 --> 3:20:23.280 in shaping the narrative from the inside out. And this 3:20:23.400 --> 3:20:27.280 is something that I think traditional models of understanding US Empire, 3:20:27.360 --> 3:20:31.120 for example, failed in understanding, which is that you know, 3:20:31.240 --> 3:20:36.160 when you have Arab Gulf States, or Turkey or Morocco 3:20:36.720 --> 3:20:42.360 or Israel invested in ensuring the debate in Washington is 3:20:42.640 --> 3:20:46.240 shaped in a particular way that meets their interest, which 3:20:46.280 --> 3:20:49.840 is not always aligned with the US. They're going to 3:20:49.920 --> 3:20:53.920 throw millions of dollars into think tanks to essentially shape 3:20:53.959 --> 3:20:57.800 what I call the common sense on any number of issues, 3:20:58.480 --> 3:21:02.800 and so they are co constructing the imperial imagination and 3:21:02.840 --> 3:21:05.280 this is one of the key findings. And then when 3:21:05.280 --> 3:21:09.360 it comes to Iran in particular, they paradoxically want to 3:21:09.480 --> 3:21:13.240 ensure that Iran remains an unknowable enemy. 3:21:13.920 --> 3:21:16.000 That's the other key piece of the book. 3:21:16.040 --> 3:21:20.680 It's just that this constructed unknowability is key to ensuring 3:21:20.760 --> 3:21:24.279 that the US maintains a posture of confrontation with Iran. 3:21:24.840 --> 3:21:27.160 And that means that you want to have this enemy 3:21:27.560 --> 3:21:30.720 that you can never fully figure out, or this enemy 3:21:30.959 --> 3:21:33.680 that's always unpredictable, this enemy that. 3:21:33.840 --> 3:21:35.120 Never follows the rules. 3:21:35.160 --> 3:21:41.800 Because if you had a predictable, rational enemy, you'd eventually 3:21:41.879 --> 3:21:44.720 have to make some type of peace with them, because 3:21:44.720 --> 3:21:48.959 that's actually the rational course of action. But when you 3:21:49.000 --> 3:21:52.440 have weapons manufacturers, when you have foreign governments, when you 3:21:52.480 --> 3:21:56.000 have all kinds of interests shaping the debate in Washington, 3:21:56.280 --> 3:22:00.000 you don't actually do what's quote unquote the rational policy 3:22:00.240 --> 3:22:04.760 for US national security interests as narrowly defined. So sorry 3:22:04.800 --> 3:22:08.879 if that was too rambly of an explanation of the book. 3:22:08.680 --> 3:22:09.960 But no, not at all. 3:22:10.720 --> 3:22:12.520 I mean it's interesting because we come at it from 3:22:12.560 --> 3:22:15.960 different disciplines. You know, I'm a political scientist, and in 3:22:16.000 --> 3:22:20.000 the international relations landscape, there was you know, well, first 3:22:20.040 --> 3:22:23.000 and foremost, like American Empire is not really recognized in 3:22:23.040 --> 3:22:26.240 like American political science, but there was this argument that 3:22:26.320 --> 3:22:28.760 percolated and like I remember going to grad school and 3:22:29.040 --> 3:22:32.640 learning this is that, like the United States is hegemonic 3:22:32.800 --> 3:22:34.840 and we can like study hierarchy, and there have been 3:22:35.000 --> 3:22:38.240 more political scientists who have studied like global hierarchies. But 3:22:38.320 --> 3:22:41.119 it's a liberal hegemon and it can't be considered an 3:22:41.120 --> 3:22:46.720 empire because it does provide these voice opportunities for our 3:22:46.840 --> 3:22:50.720 subordinates essentially to come and shape policy interest and so 3:22:50.760 --> 3:22:53.240 it's an interesting not a flip on its head, but 3:22:53.280 --> 3:22:55.920 it's like a kind of a nuancing of that argument 3:22:56.000 --> 3:22:59.200 here is like yeah, they are here and they are 3:22:59.720 --> 3:23:05.280 shape policy and shaping kind of US empire, which I think, 3:23:05.400 --> 3:23:08.080 you know, poses some questions about like the agency of 3:23:08.120 --> 3:23:11.400 these actors of course, but also like what is the 3:23:11.440 --> 3:23:14.200 broader project of US empire? Like, yeah, we don't need 3:23:14.240 --> 3:23:15.440 to think of it all the time. Is like kind 3:23:15.440 --> 3:23:16.480 of top down in. 3:23:16.400 --> 3:23:17.800 A way, exactly. 3:23:17.840 --> 3:23:21.200 There's lots of actors implicated or coherent. 3:23:21.040 --> 3:23:23.959 Or you right or right or you know, even the 3:23:23.959 --> 3:23:26.800 Iran war is a clear example, right, there's been winners 3:23:26.840 --> 3:23:29.560 and losers, as people in DC like to say. 3:23:29.640 --> 3:23:30.280 Of this war. 3:23:30.800 --> 3:23:35.600 Oil companies are reaping the greatest profits of like the 3:23:35.680 --> 3:23:39.960 last decade because of this war, because of the shortages 3:23:40.000 --> 3:23:44.040 coming through the strait of hormones. Weapons manufacturers are doing 3:23:44.080 --> 3:23:48.600 really well right now. Private equity and AI are doing well. 3:23:49.080 --> 3:23:52.520 But the damages that we are now seeing coming out 3:23:52.560 --> 3:23:56.840 of the production side across the Gulf, including inside Iran, 3:23:57.400 --> 3:24:01.000 is going to have very long term detrimental effects for 3:24:01.080 --> 3:24:04.000 all of these same industries. Paradoxically, but in the short 3:24:04.080 --> 3:24:07.760 term they're winning. Meanwhile everybody else is losing. Food prices 3:24:07.760 --> 3:24:10.440 are going up, gas prices are going up. I have 3:24:10.480 --> 3:24:13.400 a friend who works in research with helium. There's no 3:24:13.520 --> 3:24:16.119 helium in the world right now. So if you want 3:24:16.160 --> 3:24:18.879 to go get an MRI, good luck, because there's not 3:24:19.080 --> 3:24:19.680 much healium. 3:24:19.680 --> 3:24:21.720 Most of it comes out of this one facility in Kutar. 3:24:22.240 --> 3:24:24.520 And I was just reading an article about how Tata 3:24:24.560 --> 3:24:27.560 has lost so many billions of dollars as a result 3:24:27.680 --> 3:24:29.520 of this war, as a result of the attacks on 3:24:29.560 --> 3:24:30.800 some of its facilities. 3:24:31.240 --> 3:24:32.879 And it's like doh has a ghost town. 3:24:33.120 --> 3:24:35.119 And I used to live in Doha, and for anybody 3:24:35.160 --> 3:24:36.920 who has you know, been there or whatever, I mean, 3:24:37.440 --> 3:24:40.720 like at its best is a ghost town. Like often 3:24:40.760 --> 3:24:42.200 it is a ghost town. If it's not like a 3:24:42.200 --> 3:24:45.080 busy season. So, like, what even does it mean that 3:24:45.240 --> 3:24:48.039 these places? I can't even fathom what's going to happen 3:24:48.080 --> 3:24:50.040 long term given the impact of this war. 3:24:50.320 --> 3:24:53.039 And that was with just sixty days of war, right, Yeah, 3:24:53.080 --> 3:24:53.680 so we don't. 3:24:53.520 --> 3:24:55.879 Know it's in such a short amount of time. The 3:24:55.959 --> 3:24:58.279 amount of damage it caused is unbelievable. 3:24:58.800 --> 3:25:02.640 Yeah, Like you said, it's good to start to disentangle 3:25:03.879 --> 3:25:07.199 who's benefiting in service of which actors? 3:25:07.240 --> 3:25:09.360 Here are we attacking Iran? 3:25:09.720 --> 3:25:12.920 Yeah, and this is like the most corrupt administration imaginable. 3:25:13.280 --> 3:25:16.160 It really is like kind of breathtaking the level of corruption. 3:25:16.280 --> 3:25:20.120 So yeah, hopefully, you know, historians and political scientists and 3:25:20.280 --> 3:25:24.039 political anthropologists will have years and years of research to 3:25:24.120 --> 3:25:27.840 study this moment. All right, Well, is there anything else 3:25:27.879 --> 3:25:30.000 you think people should keep an eye on when it 3:25:30.000 --> 3:25:32.760 comes to the situation in Iran moving forward? 3:25:32.879 --> 3:25:36.760 I think we need to be much more critical about 3:25:36.879 --> 3:25:41.440 who is shaping the narrative on Iran moving forward. A 3:25:41.480 --> 3:25:44.760 lot of the figures who are now disavowing the war 3:25:45.240 --> 3:25:47.960 in these thing tanks and saying, you know, war was 3:25:48.000 --> 3:25:51.440 such a bad idea. Trump fumbled it and this was 3:25:51.480 --> 3:25:55.800 a terrible idea. Had essentially been i say, hedging. 3:25:55.680 --> 3:25:58.080 For this war for a long time, which is that 3:25:58.440 --> 3:26:02.160 by constructing Iran as this enemy, you can't negotiate with 3:26:02.240 --> 3:26:02.920 an enemy that. 3:26:02.879 --> 3:26:03.800 You can never predict. 3:26:04.160 --> 3:26:07.600 You can never negotiate with an enemy that lies about everything. 3:26:07.600 --> 3:26:10.200 These are the narratives that these Iran experts have been 3:26:10.240 --> 3:26:13.720 advancing for years, and now we're expected to go and 3:26:13.760 --> 3:26:16.119 turn back to that same group to get us out 3:26:16.200 --> 3:26:18.520 of this mess. And that's what I'm going to urge 3:26:18.560 --> 3:26:21.600 all of the listeners is be much more critical about 3:26:21.680 --> 3:26:25.680 who is analyzing Iran in such a moment. Look at 3:26:25.760 --> 3:26:28.560 who they work for, look at what types of analysis 3:26:28.560 --> 3:26:31.400 they've done in the past, How do they access the Iran, 3:26:31.760 --> 3:26:34.320 How do they know what they know about Iran? It 3:26:34.440 --> 3:26:37.560 sometimes takes five extra minutes when you're reading a New 3:26:37.640 --> 3:26:41.160 York Times piece to just go through and highlight who 3:26:41.200 --> 3:26:42.800 they're quoting as experts. 3:26:42.840 --> 3:26:45.680 For example, and New York Times says all kinds of problems, but. 3:26:45.600 --> 3:26:49.360 Pick whatever Wall Street Journal, Foreign Affairs, foreign policies, and 3:26:49.520 --> 3:26:53.520 just do five minutes of due diligence on who that 3:26:53.800 --> 3:26:56.160 piece is citing as an expert on Iran. 3:26:56.200 --> 3:26:58.400 And that's my key takeaway for people. 3:26:59.400 --> 3:27:01.800 Yeah, that's such a good takeaway. 3:27:02.080 --> 3:27:04.280 I mean, I think there's so many aspects of our 3:27:04.320 --> 3:27:07.760 politics in which people are trying to convince us the 3:27:07.840 --> 3:27:11.039 same people who got us into these messes are like 3:27:11.440 --> 3:27:14.920 all we have like Democratic party operatives that like led 3:27:15.000 --> 3:27:18.080 us to Trump exactly are the ones like now pretending 3:27:18.160 --> 3:27:21.240 they really dislike the genocide and Gaza and whatever. And 3:27:21.280 --> 3:27:23.760 it's the same thing these Iranian experts. They're not even Iranian. 3:27:23.879 --> 3:27:28.120 Sometimes it's just Iran experts claiming expertise. And it's like 3:27:28.560 --> 3:27:31.040 the way that you have shaped this discussion is why 3:27:31.040 --> 3:27:34.720 we're at this point. So yeah, that's a very good takeaway. 3:27:34.720 --> 3:27:37.600 I appreciate that. Yeah, thank you so much, Naggar. This 3:27:37.680 --> 3:27:38.920 has been really enriching. 3:27:39.200 --> 3:27:40.279 Thank you so much, Danna. 3:27:40.640 --> 3:27:42.760 I will put all of the things we talked about 3:27:42.760 --> 3:27:44.720 in the show notes. Does your book have a publication 3:27:44.800 --> 3:27:45.240 date yet? 3:27:45.480 --> 3:27:45.920 Nobody? 3:27:46.080 --> 3:27:49.520 I signed the contract, so oka good good, So people 3:27:49.560 --> 3:27:50.120 be on the lookout. 3:27:50.280 --> 3:27:52.640 It will be with Stanford University Press, so. 3:27:53.120 --> 3:27:56.800 Yeah, excellent, excellent, So I will make sure to note 3:27:56.800 --> 3:27:57.520 that and flag that. 3:27:57.760 --> 3:27:58.160 Thank you. 3:27:58.280 --> 3:28:00.120 Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it. 3:28:00.360 --> 3:28:00.840 Of course. 3:28:15.440 --> 3:28:19.960 Welcome back to Executive dysfunction could happen here? 3:28:20.320 --> 3:28:20.360 No? 3:28:21.040 --> 3:28:22.840 Is that all right? Garrison? I thought we were. It 3:28:23.000 --> 3:28:23.600 was pretty close. 3:28:23.760 --> 3:28:27.560 There's another like show or column called Executive Dysfunction. 3:28:27.800 --> 3:28:30.880 Now, oh is there? Ye sons of bitches? They stole 3:28:30.879 --> 3:28:31.400 it from us. 3:28:31.560 --> 3:28:34.359 That covers like legal issues relating to the Trump administration. 3:28:34.920 --> 3:28:38.520 So okay, well that brings us neatly into a first store, 3:28:38.600 --> 3:28:39.000 or did it? 3:28:39.200 --> 3:28:42.720 This is defen here Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering 3:28:42.760 --> 3:28:44.600 what's happening the White House, the crumpling world, and what 3:28:44.640 --> 3:28:47.160 it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis today, joined by 3:28:47.240 --> 3:28:51.039 James Stout, Robert Evans, Mia Wong, and Sophie Licktterman. We're 3:28:51.080 --> 3:28:53.800 a covering the week of May twenty seventh to June third. 3:28:54.480 --> 3:28:56.600 Let's talk about intellectual property lawsuits. 3:28:56.720 --> 3:29:01.120 Let's right right off the bat. One who is in 3:29:01.160 --> 3:29:04.680 any capacity using ed or unnoticed It is going to 3:29:04.720 --> 3:29:08.840 be us against the Viagara people. I'm talking today about Patagonia, 3:29:09.160 --> 3:29:13.680 the brand suing Fatigonia, the drag queen. 3:29:14.000 --> 3:29:15.600 God damn, this is God. 3:29:16.840 --> 3:29:20.320 Yeah, I've successfully walked you into my little world. This 3:29:20.400 --> 3:29:23.320 is a situation very reminiscent of people. Remember the north 3:29:23.360 --> 3:29:25.240 Face's lawsuit against the South But. 3:29:26.760 --> 3:29:29.240 I would argue it's actually kind of different. But okay, 3:29:29.280 --> 3:29:30.920 I get what you're saying. 3:29:30.760 --> 3:29:33.160 The self but lawsuit was funny. If people an't familiar, 3:29:33.280 --> 3:29:36.680 it's really funny. They were bound to arbitration. They arbitrated 3:29:36.680 --> 3:29:38.600 the settle, and then the guy turned around and launched 3:29:38.640 --> 3:29:42.280 the butt face like a few weeks later and they 3:29:42.320 --> 3:29:43.040 sued him again. 3:29:43.440 --> 3:29:46.320 That was a beautiful case of somebody trying to troll 3:29:46.360 --> 3:29:49.680 a company and also like trolling the concept of like 3:29:49.720 --> 3:29:52.880 intellectual property laws in like a really creative way, which 3:29:52.879 --> 3:29:54.520 is which is different from what's happening. 3:29:54.600 --> 3:29:58.400 Yeah, Yes, what is happening here is that when Wiley, 3:29:58.680 --> 3:30:02.879 who dragged persona is Patagonia, right, does a lot of 3:30:03.080 --> 3:30:07.160 fundraising for outdoors causes, environmental causes, public lands, that kind 3:30:07.200 --> 3:30:12.000 of thing, has attempted to trademark their use of Patigonia 3:30:12.120 --> 3:30:17.800 for clothing. Patagonia is suing Wiley to protect its trademark 3:30:17.840 --> 3:30:21.920 on its logo because some of the logos that Patigonia 3:30:21.959 --> 3:30:25.440 has used are very obviously like the mirrored Patagonia logos. 3:30:25.560 --> 3:30:29.600 Yeah, she's trying to get a trademark for her Patagonia logo, 3:30:29.680 --> 3:30:33.480 which is just Patagonia instead of Patagonia in the company 3:30:33.520 --> 3:30:34.679 logo for Patagonia. 3:30:35.120 --> 3:30:37.200 Yeah, I'm not sure she tried to tried to trademark, 3:30:37.240 --> 3:30:40.000 like the it's a Sarah Fitzroy right, like it's about 3:30:40.400 --> 3:30:43.520 scape or she just tried to trademark Patigonia. It looked 3:30:43.520 --> 3:30:43.720 like it. 3:30:43.760 --> 3:30:45.120 Well I'll double check that right now. 3:30:45.360 --> 3:30:47.120 Yeah, because I think what she has offered as a 3:30:47.120 --> 3:30:49.360 settlement right now is to stop using the logo but 3:30:49.480 --> 3:30:50.640 continue using the name. 3:30:50.720 --> 3:30:50.920 Yeah. 3:30:50.920 --> 3:30:53.880 The second is whether Patagonia should be entitled a trademark 3:30:54.000 --> 3:30:56.080 registration and at least they have a picture in the 3:30:56.120 --> 3:30:58.480 trademark application of her Patagonia logo. 3:30:58.680 --> 3:30:58.880 Yeah. 3:30:58.920 --> 3:31:00.840 Yeah, and they've claimed it's usingly similar. 3:31:00.959 --> 3:31:01.199 Yeah. 3:31:01.240 --> 3:31:03.040 And you made you made a good point when we 3:31:03.040 --> 3:31:05.280 were talking about this earlier, James, that I hadn't thought of, 3:31:05.440 --> 3:31:09.160 because you are a better mind than I am in 3:31:09.200 --> 3:31:11.480 this way, which is that it is because my initial 3:31:11.520 --> 3:31:12.760 thinking on this was like when I saw that she 3:31:12.800 --> 3:31:15.280 was trying to trademark, just like her version of the 3:31:15.280 --> 3:31:17.320 Patagonia logo, was like, well, you just took their logo 3:31:17.360 --> 3:31:19.160 and put your name on, Like that is fucked up. 3:31:19.480 --> 3:31:22.720 But you pointed out well, Patagonia's logo includes this, like 3:31:22.879 --> 3:31:26.240 actual mountain range that she includes, and Patagonia doesn't really 3:31:26.240 --> 3:31:29.280 have the right to trademark that's sillowette of a mountain range. 3:31:29.800 --> 3:31:31.880 It is a little more nuanced than I thought initially. 3:31:32.000 --> 3:31:33.680 Yeah, yeah, there are a couple of things of stake 3:31:33.680 --> 3:31:36.200 care that people prep ton't understand. One like, I'm in 3:31:36.240 --> 3:31:39.280 a moral level, not illegal one, folks, but yes, but yeah, morally, 3:31:39.280 --> 3:31:41.360 I think we should be asking the question is it 3:31:41.440 --> 3:31:45.000 okay for a company that grossest one point four billion 3:31:45.040 --> 3:31:49.080 a year to own the rights to a skyline? Like 3:31:49.120 --> 3:31:50.800 I think we should be asking that. I think alsotinly, 3:31:51.440 --> 3:31:54.080 people maybe should look a little bit deeper into I've 3:31:54.120 --> 3:31:55.720 written about this a bunch and a bunch of outlets, 3:31:55.760 --> 3:31:58.720 But Patagonia has millions daughters of military contracts that they 3:31:58.760 --> 3:32:00.520 don't like to talk about, and they did through a 3:32:00.520 --> 3:32:03.760 different company called Lost Arrow, And like the people just 3:32:03.800 --> 3:32:06.000 need to stop seeing a giant company like this is 3:32:06.040 --> 3:32:08.879 woke that like the companies ain't going to save us. 3:32:08.920 --> 3:32:13.720 The sustainable shorts aren't going to save us. Like buying 3:32:13.720 --> 3:32:15.280 a fancy fleece is not the way that you're going 3:32:15.320 --> 3:32:16.600 to make the better world that you want to live in. 3:32:17.440 --> 3:32:18.119 That's my take. 3:32:18.640 --> 3:32:21.560 Yeah, I feel like Patty was kind of poking the 3:32:21.640 --> 3:32:24.120 bear here. Yeah, one hundred percent, like in a massive way. 3:32:24.200 --> 3:32:26.080 Really yeah yeah yeah yeah. 3:32:26.080 --> 3:32:28.640 No, clearly she knew what she was going for here. 3:32:28.800 --> 3:32:32.880 Yeah, and Pagony clearly doesn't want to be fighting this lawsuit. 3:32:32.920 --> 3:32:34.840 Where are you seeing this stuff? Is this like a 3:32:34.879 --> 3:32:36.959 blue Skydews story? Where are you seeing this? No? 3:32:37.160 --> 3:32:39.840 This is like a big this is I came into it, 3:32:39.879 --> 3:32:41.840 like I saw it first on Reddit, but it's also 3:32:41.920 --> 3:32:44.360 just been pushed into my news feed like I've never 3:32:44.400 --> 3:32:47.400 heard a five different article. It's it's a big story 3:32:47.480 --> 3:32:47.800 right now. 3:32:47.879 --> 3:32:51.720 Unfortunately I followed her just like generally been aware of 3:32:51.760 --> 3:32:54.000 her for probably six or seven years, six seven. 3:32:54.240 --> 3:32:57.039 The New York Times has a feature that's just on 3:32:57.080 --> 3:32:59.400 this right now. It's a sizable tale. 3:32:59.480 --> 3:33:00.000 Interesting. 3:33:01.000 --> 3:33:03.040 I did note that most of her merch has sold out, 3:33:03.080 --> 3:33:06.120 so the striking effect it's in full force here. 3:33:06.520 --> 3:33:06.760 Yeah. 3:33:07.000 --> 3:33:09.120 Like, if you wanted to find a way to sell 3:33:09.160 --> 3:33:12.840 as many Patagonia stick as it look like the Patagonia 3:33:12.879 --> 3:33:14.440 logo as possible, you would sue her. 3:33:14.560 --> 3:33:15.520 This is the way to do it. 3:33:15.879 --> 3:33:18.320 Yeah, they're starting her for one dollar plus legal fees. 3:33:18.560 --> 3:33:21.119 People don't seem to have grasped. That doesn't mean that 3:33:21.240 --> 3:33:23.480 all that is at stake is a bug here. The 3:33:23.560 --> 3:33:25.680 fees will be very substantial. 3:33:25.959 --> 3:33:28.880 Yes, yeah, although the fees will be substantial. That said, 3:33:29.200 --> 3:33:32.800 this is clearly a fight Patty wanted to have. Ye, So, like, 3:33:32.879 --> 3:33:35.520 I am not in a situation where, like I feel 3:33:35.920 --> 3:33:40.039 particularly angry or disturbed about this lawsuit, like this is 3:33:40.360 --> 3:33:43.000 something that any company would have done some version of 3:33:43.040 --> 3:33:47.039 this in response, it's not good that Pedagonia is doing this. 3:33:47.200 --> 3:33:50.480 It's just what any corporation would do that has a 3:33:50.480 --> 3:33:55.440 fiduciary duty to its shareholders. And that shouldn't change your 3:33:55.480 --> 3:33:58.800 opinion of Patagonia from what it was previously. But your 3:33:58.840 --> 3:34:01.039 opinion of Patagonia shouldnt ever have been that it's like 3:34:01.120 --> 3:34:04.160 an altruistic entity, right right, Yeah. 3:34:04.240 --> 3:34:06.280 Two percent of its shares are held by its Purpose Trust, 3:34:06.280 --> 3:34:08.840 which are all the voting shares, and ninety eight percent 3:34:08.879 --> 3:34:10.879 if it's shares are help by the hold Fast Collective, 3:34:10.879 --> 3:34:13.680 which is a five oh one C four. So like, 3:34:13.800 --> 3:34:15.800 I think people see that as like, you know, they'd 3:34:15.840 --> 3:34:17.640 like to say the Earth is our only shareholder, but 3:34:17.720 --> 3:34:20.560 like the purpose trust is, as you say, Robert, duty 3:34:20.600 --> 3:34:22.760 bound to make a profit to give to the C four. 3:34:23.720 --> 3:34:28.080 This is not the same thing as like activism. It's different. 3:34:28.120 --> 3:34:30.080 It's a company. It's a company that has to make profit, 3:34:30.200 --> 3:34:31.800 like you said, Robert, And I think people need to 3:34:31.800 --> 3:34:32.240 grasp that. 3:34:32.560 --> 3:34:35.080 Yes, and if they I mean literally, if they were not, 3:34:35.200 --> 3:34:38.640 if they were to not fight what she's doing here 3:34:38.680 --> 3:34:41.200 like this could cause serious issues for Yeah. 3:34:41.360 --> 3:34:43.000 Yeah, I think someone tried to put their logo on 3:34:43.040 --> 3:34:46.000 a gun or I've heard. I couldn't find reporting on this, 3:34:46.080 --> 3:34:47.600 but a couple of people have mentioned it to me 3:34:47.879 --> 3:34:50.280 and obviously they'd suit about that and they got you know, 3:34:50.320 --> 3:34:51.840 so if they didn't, if they hadn't done this one, 3:34:51.840 --> 3:34:52.599 they couldn't. 3:34:52.320 --> 3:34:52.840 Do that right. 3:34:53.000 --> 3:34:55.240 And it's again, this should not I'm not you shouldn't 3:34:55.240 --> 3:34:58.160 be like, well, patagone isn't the right And but also 3:34:58.200 --> 3:35:01.000 you shouldn't be like, wow, I completely changed my opinion 3:35:01.080 --> 3:35:02.439 about this company. 3:35:02.360 --> 3:35:02.560 You know. 3:35:02.800 --> 3:35:05.280 Yeah, yeah, it's just that they're doing what they do. 3:35:05.440 --> 3:35:05.920 Yeah. 3:35:06.040 --> 3:35:08.680 I think the underlying structural thing here is something we've 3:35:08.680 --> 3:35:11.720 talked about on this show at some length, is just 3:35:11.959 --> 3:35:16.279 the underlying violence of the intellectual property system, like irrespective 3:35:16.320 --> 3:35:19.720 of this case. This is a kind of silly case 3:35:19.720 --> 3:35:21.640 of it. But you know, like there are a lot 3:35:21.640 --> 3:35:23.440 of people in the world who are dead right now 3:35:23.480 --> 3:35:25.800 because a bunch of a bunch of corporations get to 3:35:25.840 --> 3:35:29.960 hold like patents on vaccines, for example, Yeah, or insulin. 3:35:30.360 --> 3:35:34.480 This has always been an extremely violent regime that is 3:35:34.600 --> 3:35:38.600 enforced by quite like one of the most powerful international 3:35:38.600 --> 3:35:42.360 bodies that has ever existed. And yeah, if you want 3:35:42.400 --> 3:35:45.440 to hear more about this, friend of the show, Vicky 3:35:45.480 --> 3:35:48.160 Ostrowhil released a book called The Extended Universe about how 3:35:48.160 --> 3:35:51.840 Disney pioneered a whole bunch of this that, yeah, you 3:35:51.840 --> 3:35:56.080 should read about because the entire system is just pure 3:35:56.160 --> 3:35:57.680 violence and always has been. 3:35:58.400 --> 3:36:00.400 Yeah, we have some episodes from you. It is good 3:36:00.400 --> 3:36:02.640 that I made about drug ip and a a greening 3:36:02.680 --> 3:36:05.920 as well. Yeah, that's a very good point. Mare moving on, 3:36:06.600 --> 3:36:09.199 we learned this week that the F fifteen E pilot 3:36:09.240 --> 3:36:11.840 who was shut down over Iran in April had been 3:36:11.879 --> 3:36:14.480 shot down the week before over Q eight. 3:36:14.600 --> 3:36:23.160 What horrible, horrible week. Think you've had a bad week 3:36:23.200 --> 3:36:23.959 at work. 3:36:25.320 --> 3:36:28.039 Versus joining just the list of all timers, like that 3:36:28.080 --> 3:36:30.560 guy who got nuked at both Roschaman and Nagasaki. There's 3:36:30.560 --> 3:36:32.640 that guy who had sunk on four consecutive ships. 3:36:32.920 --> 3:36:35.200 Is there such thing as a reverse ace? Like if 3:36:35.200 --> 3:36:37.880 this guy gets shot down three more times like an 3:36:37.920 --> 3:36:38.640 anti as. 3:36:39.280 --> 3:36:40.959 If he gets shut down three more times, he ain't 3:36:40.959 --> 3:36:42.959 gonna be able to reach the controls of the plane, 3:36:43.000 --> 3:36:45.560 Like he's already compressed his spine show much. 3:36:46.920 --> 3:36:48.840 Yeah, I'm surprised. I didn't think they would let them. 3:36:48.959 --> 3:36:51.879 I didn't think period after getting shot down and ejecting, 3:36:52.320 --> 3:36:55.000 you would be allowed to fly a plane at all, 3:36:55.560 --> 3:36:57.680 Like yeah, quickly, I know. 3:36:58.080 --> 3:36:59.440 I was not a lad. 3:36:59.640 --> 3:37:03.480 That was my understanding is you're not normally supposed to Like, 3:37:03.520 --> 3:37:05.879 I don't think this is how normally things would be done, 3:37:05.879 --> 3:37:08.120 which kind of suggests that there was like they didn't 3:37:08.160 --> 3:37:09.119 have enough pilots. 3:37:09.400 --> 3:37:11.240 Yeah, right, it's kind of remarkable that they were able 3:37:11.240 --> 3:37:14.360 to get him another at fifteen quickly, I guess. But yeah, yeah, 3:37:14.400 --> 3:37:16.800 he probably not flying any more planes for a while, 3:37:17.080 --> 3:37:20.040 I would imagine not Yeah, I mean, who knows, maybe 3:37:20.160 --> 3:37:22.440 maybe the F fifteen to free I found. 3:37:23.720 --> 3:37:25.640 Yeah, it sounds like it's just feeding F fifteen. 3:37:29.280 --> 3:37:32.480 He must Yeah, the desert God's demand an F fifteen 3:37:32.520 --> 3:37:36.480 sacrifice every six days. Marco Rubio in the House has 3:37:36.520 --> 3:37:39.520 claimed that Afrikaners, we spoke quite this first week right, 3:37:39.520 --> 3:37:44.519 they're raising the cap to admit Africanas as refugees. Africantisu 3:37:44.600 --> 3:37:47.360 may admitted and others not because they quote have a 3:37:47.440 --> 3:37:49.320 high likelihood of assimilation. 3:37:50.040 --> 3:37:52.360 We have gauged that there is real interest from a 3:37:52.440 --> 3:37:54.880 unique subset who would be interested to coming in the 3:37:54.959 --> 3:37:57.760 United States and who we assess have a high likelihood 3:37:57.920 --> 3:38:01.040 of rapid assimilation and success in our society, and hence 3:38:01.040 --> 3:38:04.320 this program was created. Now, that's not a program that's 3:38:04.360 --> 3:38:06.960 going to exist in perpetuity. It's a program that's designed 3:38:06.959 --> 3:38:09.320 to the fact that we are seeing the demand. We 3:38:09.360 --> 3:38:12.360 are seeing applications from South Africa. People will enter the 3:38:12.480 --> 3:38:14.640 United States, and we think this is a group of 3:38:14.680 --> 3:38:15.640 potential refugees. 3:38:15.920 --> 3:38:22.080 Our Afghan allies are refugees. They have been vetted eleven 3:38:22.200 --> 3:38:25.320 hundred versus this new seventeen thousand. 3:38:25.440 --> 3:38:27.520 But it's more than just vetting. We're also trying to 3:38:27.520 --> 3:38:30.680 determine against the immigration policy the United States. Like everything 3:38:30.680 --> 3:38:32.560 we do, has to be geared by the national interest, 3:38:32.879 --> 3:38:34.760 and it is in our national interest if we are 3:38:34.800 --> 3:38:37.959 allowing people in our country be people that can quickly 3:38:37.959 --> 3:38:40.080 assimilate into society and be successful. 3:38:40.280 --> 3:38:43.920 I can't they assimilate into society. A background been to 3:38:44.040 --> 3:38:48.039 their centers in my district in Queens they have assimilated 3:38:48.440 --> 3:38:50.680 and contribute and pay taxes. 3:38:51.160 --> 3:38:53.640 Yeah, but we've already assumed a lot of Afghan refugees, 3:38:53.680 --> 3:38:55.480 as you said, you have them in your district. We've 3:38:55.520 --> 3:38:58.200 already assumed the large number in the past. The point 3:38:58.280 --> 3:39:00.760 is that the general policy has been to limit the 3:39:00.760 --> 3:39:03.280 injury of refugees from all over the world and then 3:39:03.280 --> 3:39:06.600 to create the special track because of a unique circumstance 3:39:06.640 --> 3:39:08.640 and the short term of a high demand from a 3:39:08.720 --> 3:39:10.879 number of immigrants that we have determined if they passed 3:39:10.879 --> 3:39:13.640 the vetting and the checking, we very quickly assimilate and 3:39:13.680 --> 3:39:14.840 contribute to our society. 3:39:15.280 --> 3:39:17.280 I think it's really interesting. It's one of the more 3:39:17.640 --> 3:39:23.520 clear elucidations is the way they see immigration that we've had. Yeah, 3:39:23.680 --> 3:39:26.280 like you said, it's not about vetting, it's not about 3:39:26.280 --> 3:39:30.240 background checks. It's specifically about people who can quote unquote assimilate. 3:39:30.520 --> 3:39:33.520 I wonder what the economic strata of the Africander is 3:39:33.560 --> 3:39:35.640 getting getting refugee status are. 3:39:36.320 --> 3:39:39.199 I mean it's in terms of the way that Rubio 3:39:39.280 --> 3:39:42.400 is looking at it. Their economic strata is white, which yeah, 3:39:42.480 --> 3:39:44.440 well I wonder what I wonder what their actual economic 3:39:44.520 --> 3:39:47.400 strata is. That is an interesting aspect, Like South Africa 3:39:47.480 --> 3:39:49.960 is a place where that maps on very very cleanly. 3:39:50.200 --> 3:39:50.400 Yeah. 3:39:50.760 --> 3:39:55.480 Ways, right, it's That's what I'm saying, like, definitely a lot. 3:39:56.640 --> 3:39:58.840 Yeah, and I think just having the means to apply 3:39:58.959 --> 3:39:59.200 for this. 3:39:59.640 --> 3:39:59.879 Yeah. 3:40:00.000 --> 3:40:02.640 And that's clearly like Rubio saying, like he's doing this 3:40:02.640 --> 3:40:04.360 because there is a demand. Let me tell you, there 3:40:04.400 --> 3:40:06.440 is a demand all over the world, Like I have 3:40:06.800 --> 3:40:09.879 seen demand to live in the United States in every 3:40:09.959 --> 3:40:12.560 continent on the planet apart from the ones that are 3:40:12.600 --> 3:40:15.360 covered in ice. This is as clear as you're going 3:40:15.400 --> 3:40:18.200 to get to them saying these folks are white, They're 3:40:18.200 --> 3:40:20.560 coming to America and we're going to lock out the 3:40:20.600 --> 3:40:22.560 folks who are not. Like I thought, it was very 3:40:22.600 --> 3:40:26.440 interesting to see him go right up to that line. Next, 3:40:26.560 --> 3:40:31.640 I have Medicaid work requirements. Work study of volunteering requirements 3:40:31.640 --> 3:40:34.080 of eighty hours a month will be imposed by the 3:40:34.120 --> 3:40:37.480 first of January for the forty States to expanded the 3:40:37.520 --> 3:40:41.039 program under the Affordable Care Act. This is according to 3:40:41.040 --> 3:40:44.920 a notice published today in the Federal Register today being Wednesday, 3:40:45.320 --> 3:40:50.240 this will impact millions of Americans, and the speed at 3:40:50.240 --> 3:40:53.960 which this is being done will also be very hard 3:40:54.040 --> 3:40:57.400 for state bureaucracies to keep up with. Right, we have 3:40:58.080 --> 3:41:02.160 less than six months for massive change, and like the 3:41:02.320 --> 3:41:06.040 requirement for states to monitor this, it's going to be 3:41:06.120 --> 3:41:10.000 very difficult for them to retain the stability and pivot 3:41:10.040 --> 3:41:13.400 to this and that's going to impact people, whether or 3:41:13.400 --> 3:41:16.240 not they are working. Yeah, which sucks. 3:41:16.640 --> 3:41:20.000 This is something that like particularly impacts trans people because 3:41:20.000 --> 3:41:23.520 they're a very shit tone of trans people on Medicaide 3:41:23.760 --> 3:41:27.040 and a lot of those people are also disabled and 3:41:27.080 --> 3:41:30.879 that's just been an absolute nightmare for them. If you 3:41:30.920 --> 3:41:35.640 are in a position where you can hire someone for 3:41:36.240 --> 3:41:38.040 I think the work, what's the word is like thirty 3:41:38.080 --> 3:41:39.640 hours a week? I think is the requirement? 3:41:39.680 --> 3:41:43.039 Eighty hours a month? Is eight hours twenty ish a week. 3:41:43.879 --> 3:41:45.880 Yeah, Like, if you're in a position to just hire 3:41:45.920 --> 3:41:49.280 someone for that, you should do it because that's the 3:41:49.280 --> 3:41:53.959 difference between these people like having food and not having food. 3:41:54.560 --> 3:41:57.080 Yeah, this is a potential and this will kill people. Yeah, 3:41:57.240 --> 3:41:59.959 like just just the fuck ups in the bureaucracy. Even 3:42:00.080 --> 3:42:02.160 if people are able to find the work of volunteer 3:42:02.200 --> 3:42:04.560 or study or whatever. Yeah, but the delay so that 3:42:04.600 --> 3:42:05.880 will cause will kill people. 3:42:06.680 --> 3:42:08.320 This is also a thing, by the way, that some 3:42:08.440 --> 3:42:11.160 unions have historically done with WW has done this, which 3:42:11.200 --> 3:42:15.320 is like getting people positions to be able to do volunteering. 3:42:15.920 --> 3:42:17.400 And if that's the thing you can do, you should 3:42:17.440 --> 3:42:23.520 do this because this is a unfathomable humanitarian crisis for 3:42:23.600 --> 3:42:25.520 a bunch of the most vulnerable people in the US. 3:42:26.240 --> 3:42:30.080 And yeah, it's real bad. 3:42:30.600 --> 3:42:32.160 Yeah it's not good to all. I think that is 3:42:32.200 --> 3:42:33.560 a good point mere that, Like, if you're in a 3:42:33.560 --> 3:42:36.840 place to help people coordinate their volunteering and document that, like, 3:42:37.480 --> 3:42:40.720 that's a good thing to start thinking about. Garrison, you 3:42:40.720 --> 3:42:41.560 got any small things? 3:42:42.200 --> 3:42:45.600 A few more small things. Trump signed an executive order 3:42:45.720 --> 3:42:51.400 to expand AI cybersecurity capabilities and protections, and last Friday, 3:42:51.920 --> 3:42:56.200 Chelsey Gabbard resigned as Director of National Intelligence citing her 3:42:56.400 --> 3:43:00.840 husband's recent cancer diagnosis. Trump has elect and Bill Poulti, 3:43:01.240 --> 3:43:04.160 head of the Federal Housing Finance Agency, to serve as 3:43:04.200 --> 3:43:07.160 acting Director of National Intelligence. Pulte is a Trump loyalist 3:43:07.240 --> 3:43:11.520 with no intelligence background, and even Republican senators don't seem 3:43:11.560 --> 3:43:15.279 too keen on this choice. Senate Majority leader John Thune 3:43:15.280 --> 3:43:19.720 told reporters, quote, well, we don't need a weaponized DNI, 3:43:20.120 --> 3:43:23.360 we need professionals there. If he's somebody they wanted that 3:43:23.400 --> 3:43:27.480 position permanently, he's got, as you know, a lengthy road 3:43:27.600 --> 3:43:28.760 ahead of him. 3:43:29.080 --> 3:43:33.280 Let's catch up with the war in Iran. It ran 3:43:33.760 --> 3:43:36.200 this week hit a commercial vessel with an anti ship 3:43:36.240 --> 3:43:39.279 cruise missile in the Persian Gulf, as well as firing 3:43:39.480 --> 3:43:42.920 at US facilities and hitting the international airport in Qit. 3:43:43.000 --> 3:43:46.800 But they've killed at least one person there. This comes 3:43:46.840 --> 3:43:49.720 as talks are continuing to fail to reach a resolution, 3:43:49.959 --> 3:43:53.000 at least in part because Israel refuses to stop attacking 3:43:53.040 --> 3:43:57.280 Lebanon and committing war crimes. Axios is reporting that Trump said, 3:43:57.320 --> 3:44:01.240 in a call to Nettinyahuo, quote your fucking crazy. You'd 3:44:01.240 --> 3:44:03.640 be in prison if it weren't for me. I'm saving 3:44:03.680 --> 3:44:07.800 your ass. Everybody hates you now, everybody hates Israel because 3:44:07.840 --> 3:44:12.279 of this. Sure In recent days, the IDF has explicitly 3:44:12.280 --> 3:44:16.920 threatened bit route and further expanded its ground campaign again 3:44:17.000 --> 3:44:20.280 right like, this war is now becoming very much a 3:44:20.320 --> 3:44:22.640 regional thing. Has been a regional thing since it started, 3:44:22.680 --> 3:44:25.039 but like the peace deal, is also a regional thing, 3:44:25.080 --> 3:44:30.080 and the fact that Israel refuses to do anything other 3:44:30.120 --> 3:44:33.800 than exactly what it wants, which seems to be killing 3:44:33.800 --> 3:44:36.280 more and more people in its neighboring countries, means that 3:44:36.360 --> 3:44:38.320 it's going to be very hard for this water come 3:44:38.360 --> 3:44:40.280 to an end, which is going to have long term 3:44:40.320 --> 3:44:44.800 economic consequences for the whole world. NBC has also reported, 3:44:44.840 --> 3:44:47.560 talking of the whole world, that it was a Chinese 3:44:47.680 --> 3:44:51.160 man pads shot down the fifteen E. That's for the 3:44:51.200 --> 3:44:55.080 second time in April that such equipment, along with long 3:44:55.160 --> 3:44:58.360 range radar was possibly supplied to Iran in the early 3:44:58.480 --> 3:45:02.640 days of the conflict by China. Obviously, this makes any 3:45:02.720 --> 3:45:06.519 kind of tent with the US and China more difficult, 3:45:06.600 --> 3:45:13.000 right and it's not clear if the particular actual manpad's 3:45:13.040 --> 3:45:15.720 man portable air defense system people aren't familiar if the 3:45:15.879 --> 3:45:19.200 particular serbs to MSR used had arrived recently or have 3:45:19.280 --> 3:45:22.120 been into doock pals for some time, But it appears 3:45:22.160 --> 3:45:25.600 that China, at least right before or early on in 3:45:25.600 --> 3:45:29.880 the conflict, was perhaps supplying some air defenses to it Ran. 3:45:30.440 --> 3:45:32.480 Maybe this can explain just a little bit about how 3:45:33.280 --> 3:45:37.640 the bombing campaign has been relatively unsuccessful in its objectives 3:45:37.680 --> 3:45:38.280 in many ways. 3:45:38.720 --> 3:45:40.039 Let's go on a break and then we can talk 3:45:40.040 --> 3:45:59.240 about the California elections and the Supreme Court. Okay, elections 3:45:59.320 --> 3:46:03.119 in California. Why is California like that? What is going 3:46:03.160 --> 3:46:03.959 on over there? 3:46:04.120 --> 3:46:06.000 It's because I left. It's my fault. 3:46:06.240 --> 3:46:08.160 Yeah, grieving Sophie. 3:46:09.200 --> 3:46:11.400 That was the last thing holding it together there. 3:46:11.520 --> 3:46:13.640 I'm sorry, I'm sorry. 3:46:14.120 --> 3:46:17.360 Let's start with the La mayoral race. 3:46:18.000 --> 3:46:20.760 I want to talk about it. It's my duty to 3:46:20.840 --> 3:46:23.480 talk about this. I would like to talk a bit 3:46:23.520 --> 3:46:25.679 about Spencer Pratt. 3:46:25.600 --> 3:46:28.080 Who may may be advancing, who. 3:46:27.959 --> 3:46:29.240 May be advancing, That's what I'm saying. 3:46:29.560 --> 3:46:31.959 At time of recording, which is Wednesday, June third, at 3:46:32.000 --> 3:46:35.320 around three thirty pm Pacific time, Pratt is currently in 3:46:35.400 --> 3:46:38.240 second place with thirty percent of the votes. Bass is 3:46:38.240 --> 3:46:41.080 at thirty five percent and has already been guaranteed to 3:46:41.120 --> 3:46:43.200 move forward, and I THEE Raman is in third with 3:46:43.240 --> 3:46:45.600 twenty two percent. And like I said, there's sixty percent 3:46:45.640 --> 3:46:49.680 of the votes counted. So why the fuck is Spencer 3:46:49.760 --> 3:46:54.440 Pratt a former reality TV cast member. I'm not even 3:46:54.480 --> 3:46:58.879 gonna give him star running for mayor. Pratt grew up 3:46:59.000 --> 3:47:03.040 in the Pacific Halisad's neighborhood and live there until the 3:47:03.040 --> 3:47:07.040 fires happened and he and his parents' houses were unfortunately 3:47:07.080 --> 3:47:11.520 burned down, and he started making videos on TikTok, was 3:47:11.520 --> 3:47:14.840 getting a lot of attention for it, and decided that 3:47:15.000 --> 3:47:17.760 it was his destiny to it was his According to 3:47:17.800 --> 3:47:21.480 his website, his mission to run for mayor her his 3:47:21.760 --> 3:47:27.840 own campaign website. Pratt is a media entrepreneur, questionable, outspoken 3:47:27.879 --> 3:47:31.039 advocate depends on who you're talking about, and an emerging 3:47:31.080 --> 3:47:34.959 political leader. He does have a political science degree from 3:47:35.360 --> 3:47:38.600 USC I will say that, but he does claim to 3:47:38.640 --> 3:47:41.720 be Karen Bass's worst nightmare. Now, if you're not a 3:47:41.800 --> 3:47:44.520 millennial who had television in the late two thousands, you're 3:47:44.560 --> 3:47:47.840 probably unaware of how unhinged Spencer Pratt is. 3:47:48.200 --> 3:47:50.480 Here are some highlights listeners. 3:47:50.520 --> 3:47:53.400 We apologize for what Sophie's about to make you experience. 3:47:53.480 --> 3:47:56.840 This is a lot of audio, Sophie, we need all 3:47:56.840 --> 3:47:57.039 of it. 3:47:58.320 --> 3:48:02.400 Oh god, it Garrison, just copyright. 3:48:03.120 --> 3:48:03.800 We'll just do it. 3:48:03.879 --> 3:48:06.400 Just do it for me. That was the best. 3:48:06.440 --> 3:48:08.520 Like, I was proud of myself for not doing what 3:48:08.560 --> 3:48:10.640 I wanted to do to you, because what I wanted 3:48:10.680 --> 3:48:15.200 to do and say to you, dear, I didn't because 3:48:15.240 --> 3:48:18.120 I was praying, praying like I do every day, to 3:48:18.160 --> 3:48:20.360 not say the things that I want to say to you, 3:48:20.520 --> 3:48:23.000 to your mom. I know I'm not. Do you see 3:48:23.000 --> 3:48:25.680 how I'm not saying them? Yeah, I'm very proud of myself. 3:48:26.320 --> 3:48:27.720 Take your heads about to explode. 3:48:27.879 --> 3:48:30.200 So I am sorry if I disrespected you. But I'm 3:48:30.320 --> 3:48:34.800 very emotional these days, very very so I say things 3:48:35.320 --> 3:48:36.000 that I feel. 3:48:36.400 --> 3:48:38.360 I was the one that wanted to kill anybody that 3:48:38.360 --> 3:48:39.959 would ever talk like that about. 3:48:39.720 --> 3:48:41.000 My sister, and I still would. 3:48:41.400 --> 3:48:43.800 But that goes through my mom too, and as a family, 3:48:44.040 --> 3:48:45.160 that's how we all should be. 3:48:45.280 --> 3:48:47.240 Well, I didn't say anything negative aout your mom. Your 3:48:47.240 --> 3:48:49.840 mom is just the vagina that made Heidi come on 3:48:49.840 --> 3:48:53.120 to earth. Your mom is not Jesus or God or 3:48:53.160 --> 3:48:55.440 the Creator. So why can't I say that? 3:48:55.640 --> 3:48:56.720 So why can't I say that? 3:48:56.959 --> 3:48:57.760 Why can't I say that? 3:48:58.520 --> 3:49:04.840 No, it's not it's my opinion, preacher, preacher, this isn't 3:49:04.840 --> 3:49:08.920 Bible study, this is no one's preaching, No one's preaching, 3:49:09.360 --> 3:49:14.320 No one is preaching here. You're not her sister. 3:49:14.400 --> 3:49:17.160 You're not her friend. Liar, walk away from. 3:49:16.960 --> 3:49:19.120 These lives because she's gonna sit here and keep eying you. 3:49:19.320 --> 3:49:21.920 You're the biggest poser in this town. You know what 3:49:21.960 --> 3:49:23.800 you're going to burn. 3:49:24.440 --> 3:49:29.200 I go back to the real estate job. 3:49:29.760 --> 3:49:30.040 Liar. 3:49:32.440 --> 3:49:35.520 Yeah, that was Spencer talking to his sister in law 3:49:35.520 --> 3:49:36.640 about his mother in law. 3:49:37.160 --> 3:49:39.360 All this is fake, this is all acting like this, 3:49:39.480 --> 3:49:41.600 this is I don't know this. This doesn't move me 3:49:41.680 --> 3:49:41.960 at all. 3:49:42.560 --> 3:49:44.960 Half of this is acting. Half of this is not acting. 3:49:45.360 --> 3:49:48.640 Yeah, yes, that is he here, he is talking to 3:49:48.680 --> 3:49:49.360 his own sister. 3:49:50.800 --> 3:49:55.120 Godkay, no, we've already cathlog this ship. 3:49:55.600 --> 3:49:56.360 I'm gonna leave. 3:49:56.440 --> 3:49:59.160 But I didn't get to say, Hi, are you guys good? 3:49:59.360 --> 3:49:59.840 How are you. 3:50:02.280 --> 3:50:02.800 Excellent? 3:50:02.920 --> 3:50:03.440 How are you. 3:50:05.600 --> 3:50:05.880 When? 3:50:06.080 --> 3:50:06.360 When? 3:50:06.600 --> 3:50:07.360 When? 3:50:07.560 --> 3:50:08.400 What are you crying about? 3:50:08.400 --> 3:50:11.960 Seventy? Are you crying about that? That's why you're not 3:50:12.000 --> 3:50:14.200 in my life, you crazy bitch, because you come to 3:50:14.320 --> 3:50:17.240 barbecues and just start crying. I was just enjoying myself 3:50:17.280 --> 3:50:19.480 and my wife, and I get crying sisters in front 3:50:19.480 --> 3:50:19.720 of me. 3:50:20.360 --> 3:50:23.400 She just wanted to say, but that gets a crying away. 3:50:23.640 --> 3:50:28.000 What the do I need to do to you? Drama? 3:50:28.760 --> 3:50:36.200 He didn't just ignoring me at the party. Mar What 3:50:36.400 --> 3:50:36.920 just happened? 3:50:37.080 --> 3:50:39.200 We were having a little conversation and then all of 3:50:39.200 --> 3:50:41.120 a sudden, I got people storming out of here. 3:50:41.680 --> 3:50:44.960 I'm talking now. You know it's your brother, but she's 3:50:45.000 --> 3:50:45.720 off his rocker. 3:50:45.840 --> 3:50:46.760 I don't know what's talking with her. 3:50:47.360 --> 3:50:50.840 You know what, I'm talking about, my little sister who's 3:50:50.880 --> 3:50:53.120 not relevant to my life. 3:50:53.600 --> 3:50:54.160 Oh god? 3:50:54.360 --> 3:50:55.720 Oh you know? Okay? 3:50:57.240 --> 3:51:00.960 Oh, and just to say, just to say, she has 3:51:01.040 --> 3:51:04.280 told people not to vote for her brother in modern times. 3:51:04.440 --> 3:51:06.680 Just a shacking, shocking stuff. 3:51:06.880 --> 3:51:09.200 Yeah, he seems like he's an even tempered guy. 3:51:09.280 --> 3:51:11.960 Yeah, one less clip, just because I'll I never want 3:51:11.960 --> 3:51:12.840 to talk about him again. 3:51:12.960 --> 3:51:13.880 So I'm going to get all that. 3:51:14.800 --> 3:51:17.640 I am the managing executive producer of this podcast. Let 3:51:17.680 --> 3:51:18.200 me have this. 3:51:19.160 --> 3:51:20.680 Thank you. 3:51:20.680 --> 3:51:25.720 You're on this club, dude, relaxed, bro, Look at hell's. 3:51:25.520 --> 3:51:25.960 Wrong with me? 3:51:26.200 --> 3:51:27.040 I hate that pitch. 3:51:27.120 --> 3:51:28.080 Excuse my French. 3:51:28.640 --> 3:51:29.480 Hey, you're crazy. 3:51:29.760 --> 3:51:31.200 You're looking me in a weirdo. 3:51:31.400 --> 3:51:31.560 Bro. 3:51:31.840 --> 3:51:34.480 They just yelled at me very knowledge. I'm so loud 3:51:34.480 --> 3:51:36.840 as somebody's yelled in my face for three years. 3:51:36.920 --> 3:51:37.480 I'm over you. 3:51:37.560 --> 3:51:38.560 I don't want to hear anything together. 3:51:38.640 --> 3:51:39.760 Tell me y'all in my day. 3:51:39.880 --> 3:51:42.360 Son walked away from me before we have a problem. 3:51:43.480 --> 3:51:46.360 Walk them away. 3:51:46.360 --> 3:51:52.160 God, you bo don't know how nazor science. 3:51:52.800 --> 3:51:56.600 Like I just really outed, like oh myself smashing his 3:51:56.680 --> 3:51:57.640 head off, you know, like. 3:51:58.400 --> 3:51:59.160 My pieces, Like. 3:52:02.480 --> 3:52:04.440 All right, so this is so this is like if 3:52:04.480 --> 3:52:07.440 like Clovicular run, like ran for office in like ten 3:52:07.640 --> 3:52:10.680 years yeah right, twenty years. 3:52:10.520 --> 3:52:14.480 Yeah yeah, And you know it's a reality TV show. 3:52:14.640 --> 3:52:16.640 You're right, there's parts of it that are scripted. There's 3:52:16.640 --> 3:52:18.440 parts of it that are enhanced, there's parts of it, 3:52:18.520 --> 3:52:21.760 but you can't you can't fake that fucking vein popping 3:52:21.800 --> 3:52:22.560 out of his head. 3:52:23.080 --> 3:52:26.360 A lot of it scripted, but you don't get passed, 3:52:26.800 --> 3:52:29.320 so to speak, to be that kind of character if 3:52:29.360 --> 3:52:31.960 you're not already a giant asshole, right, I. 3:52:31.880 --> 3:52:34.840 Mean yeah, it's in some ways less explicitly scripted than 3:52:34.840 --> 3:52:39.320 like WWE, but you you fall into certain roles because 3:52:39.320 --> 3:52:41.440 that's what you are getting paid to, Like that is 3:52:41.640 --> 3:52:45.160 your job is contingent on performing this kind of real 3:52:45.280 --> 3:52:47.440 not real thing. And I honestly, you know, like the 3:52:47.680 --> 3:52:49.720 sort of like like iol streamer thing is is a 3:52:49.840 --> 3:52:52.520 very similar version of that for the contemporary age. And 3:52:52.520 --> 3:52:54.680 I think so it really there was there was one 3:52:54.680 --> 3:52:56.960 specific like like line there that really reminded me of 3:52:57.000 --> 3:53:00.640 like one of one of clivioculars, like on cam Her meltdowns. 3:53:00.680 --> 3:53:03.120 I'm like, oh, this is really just if What if 3:53:03.120 --> 3:53:05.520 you had a guy like that just run for office 3:53:05.840 --> 3:53:08.400 for like the mayor of whatever city in like twenty years. Yeah. 3:53:08.480 --> 3:53:09.920 Yeah, well I want to talk a little bit about 3:53:09.920 --> 3:53:13.600 his campaign style. He shared this video on X the 3:53:13.640 --> 3:53:17.360 Everything app, and it got millions and millions of views, 3:53:17.400 --> 3:53:20.200 with people saying it's the best campaign video of all time, 3:53:21.040 --> 3:53:22.520 and so we're gonna play it for you now. 3:53:22.720 --> 3:53:25.960 No, it's more of him than I've ever seen. 3:53:26.600 --> 3:53:27.680 This is the Batman one. 3:53:28.840 --> 3:53:29.560 I haven't seen this. 3:53:30.160 --> 3:53:30.560 She was there. 3:53:30.720 --> 3:53:31.960 He did not make this video. 3:53:32.120 --> 3:53:34.760 He did not make this. He shared it and he 3:53:34.760 --> 3:53:38.160 he's big on the AI sharing video trend. 3:53:38.280 --> 3:53:40.400 Yes, his website is filled with it. 3:53:40.520 --> 3:53:43.640 Yeah, there have been a lot of AI videos in 3:53:43.840 --> 3:53:44.760 LA races time. 3:53:44.840 --> 3:53:49.080 There's been a lot of these LA election like Batman videos. Yes, yes, 3:53:50.120 --> 3:53:52.440 let's I guess. Let's watch this one. 3:53:52.480 --> 3:53:54.720 Sure until we get bored with it. 3:53:54.840 --> 3:54:00.840 Yeah, wait, hang on, just break that down. 3:54:01.200 --> 3:54:04.480 Yeah, I think this makes sense to watch a little bit. 3:54:04.880 --> 3:54:07.880 Yeah. Yeah, we have to explain first. We start with 3:54:07.920 --> 3:54:10.080 the entire Hollywood sign of flame. 3:54:12.760 --> 3:54:17.000 You see is these these goons dressed in all black 3:54:17.080 --> 3:54:23.800 tactical gear with the white that says DSA, which is. 3:54:23.120 --> 3:54:25.680 One of the best things I've ever seen. That one 3:54:25.640 --> 3:54:27.040 of my favorite part about this game. 3:54:27.320 --> 3:54:30.840 Yes, the paramilitary DSA forces in Los. 3:54:30.520 --> 3:54:33.680 Angeles, and then it goes into this sort of dark 3:54:33.760 --> 3:54:35.160 Knight rises like courtroom. 3:54:35.360 --> 3:54:37.040 Yeah, Karen Bass in the. 3:54:36.920 --> 3:54:39.680 Middle, except Karen Bass has joker makeup and. 3:54:39.920 --> 3:54:42.800 Kamala Harris is I think drinking alcohol on one side 3:54:42.840 --> 3:54:43.400 and that's now. 3:54:43.440 --> 3:54:45.920 Oh yeah, she's just like straight from the bottle too. 3:54:46.080 --> 3:54:46.840 Is that all say too? 3:54:46.880 --> 3:54:50.600 I think there's a little bit of district fucking Hunger Games, 3:54:50.760 --> 3:54:55.360 the Hunger Games, the Hunger Games Capital in that design too, anyway. 3:54:55.640 --> 3:54:59.280 Yeah, and uh, Gavin Newsom's and likes, you know, like yeah, 3:54:59.600 --> 3:55:00.920 a wrist acratic garb. 3:55:01.120 --> 3:55:02.360 Yeah, okay, that's Gavin. 3:55:02.520 --> 3:55:07.880 Okay, please, I'm begging you. 3:55:08.360 --> 3:55:10.680 There's homeless drug addicts in front of the schools. 3:55:10.720 --> 3:55:11.840 My children aren't safe. 3:55:14.080 --> 3:55:16.520 Look, if you were a transgender migrant, I could get 3:55:16.560 --> 3:55:18.160 you a free pussy all right. 3:55:18.560 --> 3:55:27.040 Wow, Wow, I know, holy shit, holy shit, I'm fascinated 3:55:27.080 --> 3:55:28.440 by what we've got amazing. 3:55:28.560 --> 3:55:30.240 James, have you not seen this before? 3:55:30.400 --> 3:55:31.080 Absolutely not. 3:55:31.680 --> 3:55:32.840 No, I haven't seen this either. 3:55:33.200 --> 3:55:35.280 I shared this video in our work chat like like 3:55:35.360 --> 3:55:36.640 a month and a half, like. 3:55:36.680 --> 3:55:39.040 Yeah, oh wait, no, shit, I have seen it. 3:55:39.120 --> 3:55:40.840 Oh god, I didn't watch. 3:55:40.880 --> 3:55:43.200 I've got to control my exposure to this shit. It's 3:55:43.240 --> 3:55:46.160 made me very angry. So we now have a marionette 3:55:46.400 --> 3:55:47.960 off like a Latina. 3:55:48.800 --> 3:55:51.200 Okay, god, yeah that makes sense. 3:55:51.480 --> 3:55:54.120 But there's like, d you say people? Do you say? 3:55:54.360 --> 3:55:56.160 Thugs and tact ol Gary, Plus they. 3:55:56.080 --> 3:55:58.480 Throw the woman on the ground who's complaining about Yeah 3:55:58.520 --> 3:56:01.360 that the homeless drug addicts. I think we're good. 3:56:01.560 --> 3:56:04.440 It's it's it's all that kind of stuff. It's yeah, whatever. 3:56:04.680 --> 3:56:07.600 There's like a fake Batman scene. They asked for Spencer 3:56:07.760 --> 3:56:10.920 Spencer and a fake Batman costume. Blah blah blah. 3:56:11.080 --> 3:56:14.560 Yeah, I mean, yeah, Spencer prattis Batman. That's that's Spencer 3:56:14.560 --> 3:56:15.200 Pratt's Batman. 3:56:15.400 --> 3:56:17.920 Yes, you know, that's the kind of stuff they's sharing. 3:56:18.280 --> 3:56:20.560 And you know, one of the biggest things he's run 3:56:20.600 --> 3:56:22.280 on is that his house was burned down and he 3:56:22.360 --> 3:56:24.360 was didn't have a place to live, and he claimed 3:56:24.360 --> 3:56:27.920 that he was living in a trailer on the property 3:56:28.240 --> 3:56:30.480 where his house used to be. And then it turned 3:56:30.480 --> 3:56:33.720 out that he was actually not staying in that trailer, 3:56:33.760 --> 3:56:35.920 but he was staying at the hotel bel Air, which 3:56:35.960 --> 3:56:38.840 is one of the nicest hotels in Los Angeles. 3:56:38.960 --> 3:56:40.360 Yeah, oh yeah. 3:56:40.000 --> 3:56:44.040 And in response to to that, he made this video. 3:56:46.240 --> 3:56:49.200 Now, this is a story all about how my life 3:56:49.200 --> 3:56:53.160 got certain upside down. 3:56:54.160 --> 3:56:55.720 The prince of itself called bel Air. 3:56:56.200 --> 3:56:56.520 Wow. 3:56:56.720 --> 3:56:59.400 Oh god, oh, I don't know. I don't want to 3:56:59.400 --> 3:57:05.040 get me no, no, no, millions. 3:57:04.440 --> 3:57:06.480 Of views, millions of views. 3:57:07.040 --> 3:57:09.160 Yeah, and this like weird. 3:57:09.520 --> 3:57:17.080 Rogue, no qualification political candidate thing is working. People are like, 3:57:17.320 --> 3:57:19.880 we need to change and I'm prott the BBC. In 3:57:19.960 --> 3:57:22.640 terms of fundraising during the race, Pratt has blown away 3:57:22.680 --> 3:57:26.040 the other two. He raised two point seven million dollars 3:57:26.080 --> 3:57:30.000 between April nineteenth and May sixteenth. That's nearly ten times 3:57:30.040 --> 3:57:32.880 what Bass, a longtime politician, raised in the same period, 3:57:33.120 --> 3:57:36.480 and approximately seven times what Nathio Raman raised. 3:57:37.080 --> 3:57:39.600 I mean, no one likes Bass, right, it's the other thing, Right, 3:57:39.640 --> 3:57:43.320 the Democrats have doubled down on doing exactly the same 3:57:43.360 --> 3:57:46.840 shit they've been doing for decades across California. 3:57:47.120 --> 3:57:49.440 Yeah, it's this like feckless moderate liberalism. 3:57:49.640 --> 3:57:52.480 Yeah, like cost oral libs will be how I describe 3:57:52.600 --> 3:57:53.320 the Democrats. 3:57:53.520 --> 3:57:55.560 Yeah, and just to say, like Nithia Rahm did enter 3:57:55.600 --> 3:57:59.920 the race late and she is far far left from Karen, 3:58:00.880 --> 3:58:03.320 So we're seeing that. But the thing that's really interesting 3:58:03.400 --> 3:58:07.040 to me about this is there's nine point six nine 3:58:07.040 --> 3:58:11.240 million people in La County, and you know, I'm comparing 3:58:11.280 --> 3:58:13.360 it to what I think will probably be about what 3:58:13.480 --> 3:58:14.400 it'll be for. 3:58:14.400 --> 3:58:15.160 Twenty twenty six. 3:58:15.200 --> 3:58:17.520 But in twenty twenty two, you know, Karen Bass got 3:58:17.560 --> 3:58:20.240 two hundred and seventy eight thousand votes, Rick Caruso only 3:58:20.280 --> 3:58:22.720 got two hundred and thirty two thousand votes, and Kevin 3:58:22.760 --> 3:58:25.920 dalone only got fifty thousand votes out of nine point 3:58:25.920 --> 3:58:28.520 six nine million people. That's the amount of people that 3:58:28.640 --> 3:58:32.280 actually voted in the primary in twenty twenty two. It's 3:58:32.400 --> 3:58:35.960 and it's looking to be very similar for twenty twenty six. 3:58:36.160 --> 3:58:37.640 Yeah, maybe even a little bit lower. 3:58:37.680 --> 3:58:39.000 I mean, I agree, I think it might be a 3:58:39.040 --> 3:58:39.680 little bit lower. 3:58:39.800 --> 3:58:42.160 That only has one hundred and fifty thousand votes, but 3:58:42.160 --> 3:58:43.240 he's in second place. 3:58:43.280 --> 3:58:44.400 He's in second place. Yeah. 3:58:44.440 --> 3:58:47.280 Again, this is interesting because you're seeing higher than in 3:58:47.320 --> 3:58:49.800 a lot of places, higher than average turnout, And I 3:58:49.800 --> 3:58:52.280 think part of why is just because most people voting 3:58:52.360 --> 3:58:56.600 know that, like with both the California mayor and gubernatorial elections, 3:58:56.760 --> 3:59:01.480 the likeliest outcome is like someone who isn't the worst 3:59:01.480 --> 3:59:05.320 possible choice, but isn't going to like make things better 3:59:05.440 --> 3:59:06.960 like Ella, He's not going to have a good mayre. 3:59:07.360 --> 3:59:09.920 Most people are fairly confident of that, and so there's 3:59:09.960 --> 3:59:12.280 just not a lot of there's not I don't think 3:59:12.320 --> 3:59:14.600 people are very motivated because they feel like, what the 3:59:14.600 --> 3:59:16.240 fuck is the point of caring about? 3:59:16.360 --> 3:59:16.880 Sure this? 3:59:17.280 --> 3:59:18.920 You know, and I don't. I'm not saying that's the 3:59:19.000 --> 3:59:20.760 right way to look at it. I'm just saying that 3:59:20.760 --> 3:59:22.760 that's what I think is part of what's going on here. 3:59:23.120 --> 3:59:25.960 Yeah, Like I know, like just from the discourse around 3:59:26.040 --> 3:59:30.720 San Diego, like people they're tired of being shamed into 3:59:30.800 --> 3:59:33.720 vote for like some medio care asque candidate who will 3:59:33.920 --> 3:59:36.040 just give all the money to the cops like the 3:59:36.120 --> 3:59:37.720 last five Mays have done. 3:59:37.920 --> 3:59:40.360 Yeah, We're going to keep seeing these kind of candidates. 3:59:40.400 --> 3:59:42.400 It's going to become a regular thing. We even have, 3:59:42.520 --> 3:59:46.200 you know, Jersey Shore star Mike the situation, Sarantino saying 3:59:46.200 --> 3:59:48.760 he's thinking about running for a New Jersey governor. I 3:59:48.800 --> 3:59:52.040 hate this trend. This trend sucks. And in the words 3:59:52.040 --> 3:59:55.360 of Louren Conrad, he's a sucky person. He's a sucky person. 3:59:55.560 --> 3:59:58.760 I hate Spencer. I'm never gonna like Spencer. Please don't 3:59:58.760 --> 4:00:01.920 make him your mayor. Los Angeles do better. He's awful, 4:00:02.280 --> 4:00:07.800 he's horrific, he hates unhouse people. Terrible person, no bad shame. 4:00:08.400 --> 4:00:09.440 I'm done. 4:00:09.640 --> 4:00:11.280 I hope to never to have to talk about this 4:00:11.320 --> 4:00:12.600 person ever again. 4:00:13.240 --> 4:00:14.000 Yeah. 4:00:14.160 --> 4:00:17.840 So, in case people don't know, the two top winners 4:00:17.880 --> 4:00:20.880 of the LA mayoral primary advance to a runoff. So 4:00:21.120 --> 4:00:23.760 Bath is going to be there. She is in the 4:00:23.840 --> 4:00:27.880 lead and right now is between Pratt and Raman and Presley. 4:00:27.880 --> 4:00:30.120 The second place has been sliding as more and more 4:00:30.200 --> 4:00:34.280 votes come in, but as of Wednesday afternoon, he's still 4:00:34.280 --> 4:00:40.280 in second. As for governor, Yeah, Steve Hilton, Republican is 4:00:40.360 --> 4:00:44.600 in the number one spot with one point three almost 4:00:44.640 --> 4:00:48.400 one point four million votes as of Wednesday afternoon. Sarah's 4:00:48.520 --> 4:00:51.840 in number two with twenty five percent of the vote. 4:00:51.920 --> 4:00:56.240 Tom Steyer is in number three with almost twenty percent 4:00:56.320 --> 4:00:59.000 of the vote, and this is about fifty five percent 4:00:59.080 --> 4:01:03.520 of the vote in Sero's former Biden Cabinet member, Health 4:01:03.520 --> 4:01:06.920 and Human Services secretary. Yeah, so more of kind of 4:01:07.000 --> 4:01:11.120 moderate liberal stire stire, the more progressive candidate. But it 4:01:11.160 --> 4:01:14.000 seems because he is a billionaire, that did in some 4:01:14.080 --> 4:01:17.160 ways effect like enthusiasm to vote for him. On the 4:01:17.320 --> 4:01:21.440 Democratic side, yeah, there's another Republican candidate who's in fourth 4:01:21.480 --> 4:01:23.640 place with over half a million votes. 4:01:23.760 --> 4:01:27.040 But again, the amount of votes that are actually happening 4:01:27.280 --> 4:01:31.080 compared to the amount of people is insane. 4:01:31.400 --> 4:01:32.360 It's so low. 4:01:32.880 --> 4:01:33.920 Yeah, it's really bad. 4:01:34.240 --> 4:01:36.880 There's a massive field of candidates, but that no one 4:01:36.960 --> 4:01:40.600 really captured the imagination of people here. No one would 4:01:40.760 --> 4:01:43.520 enthusiastic for this. No, I guess so I can cover 4:01:43.560 --> 4:01:45.800 a couple of small San Diego things quickly. San Diego 4:01:45.880 --> 4:01:50.240 Measure a missa A was a tax on second homes 4:01:50.360 --> 4:01:54.600 defined as unoccupied the majority of the year. Tear Yeah 4:01:54.640 --> 4:01:57.000 it it looks like it's going. 4:01:56.840 --> 4:02:00.280 Moving the nation. Oh it's not super sorry it's not yet. 4:02:00.520 --> 4:02:04.000 Yeah and voviously not like it's I mean, there is 4:02:04.040 --> 4:02:06.640 nothing that unite San die against more than hating tourists. 4:02:07.000 --> 4:02:09.120 But I think you have this interesting alliance of like 4:02:09.360 --> 4:02:12.880 Boomer homeowners thinking this will mess with their property prices 4:02:12.920 --> 4:02:16.160 and generally not wanting to pay taxes. Yeah, and people 4:02:16.200 --> 4:02:18.520 who understand that any money we give to our city 4:02:18.600 --> 4:02:20.680 is just going to go directly to the cops. 4:02:20.960 --> 4:02:22.880 Where do you get that idea from that? That is 4:02:23.120 --> 4:02:25.120 a sentiment among the people who voted for this, Like 4:02:25.240 --> 4:02:26.960 is this like demonstrated anywhere? 4:02:27.160 --> 4:02:29.680 Yeah, Like if you go if you look on social media, right, 4:02:29.760 --> 4:02:33.920 like let's say San Diego, next Door, Reddit, et cetera. Right, 4:02:34.120 --> 4:02:37.840 and then from meetings like we've had discussions within unions 4:02:37.840 --> 4:02:40.400 I'm part of. Like, so if you look at what 4:02:40.400 --> 4:02:42.600 our city is doing right now, it's slashing the arts budget, 4:02:42.680 --> 4:02:46.760 it's slashing the park's budget. Yeah, it's slashing everything apart 4:02:46.800 --> 4:02:49.760 from the police budget, which is continuing to increase. Right 4:02:50.040 --> 4:02:52.880 Most notably in San Diego, they have started to try 4:02:52.920 --> 4:02:55.680 and charge for parking at the park and at the 4:02:55.680 --> 4:02:59.960 beach and on major thoroughfares, which, like charging sandy against 4:03:00.120 --> 4:03:02.600 go to the beach, is the most radicalizing thing that 4:03:02.640 --> 4:03:05.760 any politician could ever do. It's incredibly stupid as a 4:03:05.800 --> 4:03:10.200 revenue generating measure, Like people have people have vandalized parking 4:03:10.280 --> 4:03:14.160 machines in very boushy neighborhoods because this is just like 4:03:14.240 --> 4:03:17.640 so offensive to people, and I think there's like just 4:03:17.680 --> 4:03:23.240 a growing disgust with our mayor. And then like the 4:03:23.320 --> 4:03:25.560 idea that giving them any more money would result in 4:03:25.600 --> 4:03:28.240 better outcomes for people just doesn't kind of fly anymore, 4:03:28.400 --> 4:03:30.680 if that makes sense, Like they've they've done all these 4:03:30.720 --> 4:03:32.440 revenue generating measures. 4:03:32.280 --> 4:03:34.800 It's it's like a lost loss in faith that any 4:03:35.040 --> 4:03:38.000 revenue will actually just go towards each things. They're like 4:03:38.080 --> 4:03:38.680 cenrible thing. 4:03:38.960 --> 4:03:41.120 Our city spent I think one hundred million on a 4:03:41.120 --> 4:03:43.840 building filled with asbestos, which is worth less money than 4:03:43.880 --> 4:03:46.080 the land would be if the building wasn't on it, 4:03:46.400 --> 4:03:50.160 and from years and years tried to kind of play 4:03:50.200 --> 4:03:53.840 political football with the fact that they bought a cancer tower, Like, yeah, 4:03:53.880 --> 4:03:56.760 there's a reason that San Diego is sometimes referred to 4:03:56.800 --> 4:04:00.000 as Enron by the Sea, and I think folks are 4:04:00.480 --> 4:04:02.920 folks are kind of having enough of it, reissuing under 4:04:02.960 --> 4:04:05.240 the perfect son for folks who want to read more 4:04:05.280 --> 4:04:07.080 about San Diego politics. 4:04:07.280 --> 4:04:09.400 This sort of an alliance between like small capital, you know, 4:04:09.400 --> 4:04:11.760 people who don't want to pay for a tax on 4:04:11.800 --> 4:04:14.520 the second home. That alliance with people who like lost 4:04:14.560 --> 4:04:18.600 faith in city services, right, who are going to oppose 4:04:18.680 --> 4:04:21.200 funding because they don't think it's actually like worthwhile. That's 4:04:21.240 --> 4:04:24.040 an interesting coalition of the modern moment. 4:04:24.240 --> 4:04:27.160 Right, Yeah. Yeah, And it's definitely like a creation of 4:04:27.560 --> 4:04:29.760 like specifically in California, right, this idea that we don't 4:04:29.760 --> 4:04:31.880 get to choose basically we're going to get a Democrat, 4:04:32.000 --> 4:04:35.200 and that Democrat will just do whatever they want. It's 4:04:35.240 --> 4:04:38.280 made that position very appealing to people, I guess maybe 4:04:38.320 --> 4:04:40.520 go from California. I do want to mention just briefly 4:04:41.080 --> 4:04:45.240 that Sam Forstag won the Democrat primary from Montana's House district. 4:04:45.520 --> 4:04:49.040 This is really interesting. He's a progressive union organizer. He 4:04:49.160 --> 4:04:51.760 used to be a smoke jumper for a service firefighter. 4:04:52.600 --> 4:04:56.800 He is one of those folks who was, like I 4:04:56.800 --> 4:05:00.240 guess his entry into national politics came from Doge was 4:05:00.280 --> 4:05:03.760 cutting all these guys like GS two people right, people 4:05:03.800 --> 4:05:06.320 at the Forest Service, people at these big public lands 4:05:06.360 --> 4:05:10.720 management agencies who are making barely making a living. Yeah, 4:05:10.760 --> 4:05:12.560 and anson who have struggled for a long time in 4:05:12.600 --> 4:05:15.800 places like Bozeman, right, where the second homeowners have driven 4:05:15.840 --> 4:05:20.320 out the pricing significantly. That sort of pathway to progressive 4:05:20.320 --> 4:05:22.560 politics is one that's very interesting to me and when 4:05:22.600 --> 4:05:24.480 I want to do a lot more reporting on. But 4:05:24.520 --> 4:05:26.560 I thought it was a positive sign to see him 4:05:26.560 --> 4:05:27.440 winning that primary. 4:05:27.760 --> 4:05:30.320 Speaking of elections, before we go on break, I do 4:05:30.440 --> 4:05:33.560 want to talk about the Supreme Court, following up on 4:05:33.600 --> 4:05:37.200 a story from last week. Last week, our final segment 4:05:37.240 --> 4:05:39.520 on the show was on the five year battle in 4:05:39.600 --> 4:05:43.000 Alabama over two different house maps, or technically three, but 4:05:43.200 --> 4:05:46.120 the Republican ones were very similar. It was about these 4:05:46.240 --> 4:05:49.120 Republican drawn maps that have only one black majority district 4:05:49.520 --> 4:05:53.000 and a court ordered map that has two, following the 4:05:53.000 --> 4:05:55.360 Supreme Court's weakening of Section two, the Voilting Rights Actor 4:05:55.360 --> 4:05:59.080 earlier this year. Late last month, a federal district court 4:05:59.280 --> 4:06:03.080 ruled that the up drawn map in Alabama intentionally discriminated 4:06:03.120 --> 4:06:05.920 based on race and diluted the voting power of black 4:06:05.920 --> 4:06:09.000 Alabama's So they placed an injunction on that map and 4:06:09.280 --> 4:06:12.080 ordered the state to use the court approved map that 4:06:12.160 --> 4:06:15.480 was already in use in previous elections for the upcoming primaries. 4:06:16.040 --> 4:06:19.040 This ruling was appealed to the Supreme Court, who on 4:06:19.160 --> 4:06:23.400 Tuesday night overruled a district court issuing a four page 4:06:23.560 --> 4:06:28.200 unsigned shadow docket ruling allowing Alabama to use the GOP 4:06:28.400 --> 4:06:31.760 map that eliminates a black majority or a black opportunity. 4:06:32.120 --> 4:06:35.800 District Supreme Court said that the state is likely to 4:06:35.840 --> 4:06:38.960 succeed on the merits of its claims quote. At this 4:06:39.040 --> 4:06:42.160 preliminary stage, the state has shown that it is entitled 4:06:42.200 --> 4:06:46.560 to interim relief from the District Court's injunction. So this 4:06:46.640 --> 4:06:50.360 is the first time the Supreme Court has evaluated another 4:06:50.520 --> 4:06:55.040 court's interpretation of their Louisiana ruling, and in this case, 4:06:55.080 --> 4:06:58.160 the Supreme Court is saying the District Court got it wrong. 4:06:58.880 --> 4:07:02.200 In the updated rules for Section two is a part 4:07:02.200 --> 4:07:05.240 of the Louisiana ruling. In order to succeed in arguing 4:07:05.240 --> 4:07:09.000 a Section two violation, plaintiffs have to submit an alternative 4:07:09.040 --> 4:07:13.920 map that must quote meet all the states legitimate districting 4:07:13.960 --> 4:07:18.960 objectives just as well as the state's own map, including 4:07:19.040 --> 4:07:24.520 quote unquote the states specified political goals and any other 4:07:24.680 --> 4:07:30.440 goal not prohibited by the Constitution. So the alternative map 4:07:30.480 --> 4:07:33.160 that plaintiffs need to submit when challenging them at based 4:07:33.200 --> 4:07:35.840 on Section two has to have the same like partisan 4:07:36.480 --> 4:07:40.360 goals represented. Is what these updated rules in the Louisiana 4:07:40.440 --> 4:07:42.840 ruling instead, and Supreme Court said that this was not 4:07:43.040 --> 4:07:47.440 followed by the District Court's ruling. Section two challenges must 4:07:47.480 --> 4:07:51.600 also quote provide an analysis that controls for party affiliation 4:07:52.240 --> 4:07:56.680 and quote show that voters engage in racial block voting 4:07:56.920 --> 4:08:02.680 that cannot be explained by partisan affiliation. So, basically, the 4:08:02.720 --> 4:08:06.240 Supreme Court claimed that the district court ordered map fails 4:08:06.280 --> 4:08:10.480 to do all this by not maintaining the state's quote 4:08:10.840 --> 4:08:16.280 constitutionally permissible community of interest on the Gulf Coast by 4:08:16.280 --> 4:08:18.880 cutting into a section of the Gulf Coast in the 4:08:18.880 --> 4:08:24.040 Black Opportunity District, also failing to avoid contests between incumbents. 4:08:24.280 --> 4:08:26.880 The Supreme Court said that the District Court's ruling quote unquote, 4:08:26.880 --> 4:08:30.560 departed from the updated standards set in the Louisiana ruling. 4:08:30.880 --> 4:08:35.400 Quote as to intentional vote dilution, the District Court did 4:08:35.400 --> 4:08:40.320 not heed the presumption of legislative good faith because it 4:08:40.440 --> 4:08:45.000 interpreted the state's legal disagreement with the court's earlier remedial 4:08:45.120 --> 4:08:50.600 order as proof of discriminatory animus unquote. Scotus is basically 4:08:50.640 --> 4:08:55.840 saying that just because it was definitively demonstrated to Alabama 4:08:55.880 --> 4:09:00.320 Republicans that their map had a discriminatory effect, and then 4:09:00.360 --> 4:09:05.080 they pass it anyway, that itself does not qualify as intent. 4:09:05.800 --> 4:09:10.800 So showing quote unquote intent is effectively impossible, like at 4:09:10.800 --> 4:09:13.840 this point, because we maps can be sliced uff like crazy, 4:09:13.840 --> 4:09:16.840 and they can just do that based on party. And 4:09:16.880 --> 4:09:19.400 this is what the Supreme Court is saying, quote. The 4:09:19.400 --> 4:09:22.720 District Court also failed to follow our instructions that the 4:09:22.760 --> 4:09:25.920 mere fact that voters of different races vote for different 4:09:25.960 --> 4:09:31.880 parties is not relevant to proving racially polarized voting patterns unquote. 4:09:32.160 --> 4:09:35.680 And this was specifically the thing I was most curious 4:09:35.680 --> 4:09:39.960 about is if this idea that the District Court wrote, 4:09:40.440 --> 4:09:43.520 if this idea that showing someone that their map is 4:09:43.560 --> 4:09:46.120 doing discrimination, if you show someone that and then they 4:09:46.160 --> 4:09:49.360 pass it anyway, does that prove that that person then 4:09:49.400 --> 4:09:52.160 had intent because they knew it was discriminatory. And the 4:09:52.200 --> 4:09:54.120 Supreme Court is saying, no, that does not That does 4:09:54.160 --> 4:09:56.760 not actually show intent. That is the main way that 4:09:56.800 --> 4:10:01.920 the Supreme Court has overruled the district court ruling. They 4:10:01.960 --> 4:10:04.240 also argue that the district Court meddled in the state 4:10:04.280 --> 4:10:07.760 election too close to the primary, even though it's actually 4:10:07.800 --> 4:10:10.360 the Supreme Court ruling that is green lighting with this 4:10:10.480 --> 4:10:14.480 redistricting midway through the primary process. But that's kind of 4:10:14.480 --> 4:10:16.360 the added on at the very end of the of 4:10:16.440 --> 4:10:18.920 the four page on sign shadow docket ruling. 4:10:19.840 --> 4:10:22.400 The macro level implication of this is that the Voting 4:10:22.400 --> 4:10:25.400 Breich's Tract is unenforceable, like the parts of the Voting 4:10:25.440 --> 4:10:28.840 Right DAC that are supposed to protect from literally this 4:10:29.200 --> 4:10:34.760 specific thing, this specific thing of intentionally deluding black people's 4:10:34.840 --> 4:10:37.760 votes so that they can't elect candidates was the Jim 4:10:37.760 --> 4:10:40.400 Crow practice. At this part YEP of the Voting Right 4:10:40.440 --> 4:10:43.240 track was specifically designed to do, and you can't do 4:10:43.360 --> 4:10:46.920 it anymore. It is just the Supreme Court has decided 4:10:47.040 --> 4:10:49.560 that this part of the Voting Right Zack doesn't exist. Yeah, 4:10:49.640 --> 4:10:52.320 And and they've decided this because they want to they want 4:10:52.360 --> 4:10:55.960 to do racist Jerry Manderin's Republicans can win elections. And 4:10:56.000 --> 4:10:58.920 that's I don't know, I mean, like arguably the death 4:10:58.920 --> 4:11:02.360 of multiracial like any semblance of multi racial democracy in 4:11:02.400 --> 4:11:07.200 the US, which is not great. Yeah, I don't know, 4:11:07.520 --> 4:11:10.440 it's it's really really bad. 4:11:10.800 --> 4:11:13.800 Yeah, I mean, it's it's what they've been working for 4:11:13.800 --> 4:11:16.400 for decades, right, It's what the Yarban's always talking about right, 4:11:16.400 --> 4:11:19.280 it's repealing the twentieth century, you know, like that has 4:11:19.320 --> 4:11:21.520 been the goal for a very long time, and they 4:11:21.560 --> 4:11:23.600 see this as one of the most important steps towards 4:11:23.640 --> 4:11:23.960 doing that. 4:11:24.240 --> 4:11:26.160 Yes, he's pretty devastating. 4:11:27.920 --> 4:11:29.600 I think there is a way to do. I think 4:11:29.640 --> 4:11:33.200 some more in depth analysis, like on this topic that 4:11:33.320 --> 4:11:34.400 might have to be in the future. 4:11:34.840 --> 4:11:37.000 Yeah, I mean I did a full episode on this, 4:11:37.160 --> 4:11:38.200 like a couple of weeks ago. 4:11:38.720 --> 4:11:41.280 I mean specifically the way that the interpretation in the 4:11:41.280 --> 4:11:44.400 shadow Dotocket ruling, how it clarifies certain things, like, you know, 4:11:44.520 --> 4:11:49.960 just because statistically different races may vote for different parties, 4:11:50.040 --> 4:11:53.880 that does not actually prove racially polarized voting powdern like's 4:11:53.920 --> 4:11:55.960 there's certain things here that we can do a lot 4:11:56.000 --> 4:11:59.800 more analysis of, and like in terms of proving an intent, 4:12:00.560 --> 4:12:02.760 a lot of states don't even need to do like 4:12:02.920 --> 4:12:06.680 mustache twirling, I'm going to look at race maps and 4:12:06.760 --> 4:12:09.640 draw it based on race maps. They can just draw 4:12:09.720 --> 4:12:13.560 based on party affiliation, and that is going to get 4:12:13.640 --> 4:12:15.880 the party the actual effect right, because these maps are 4:12:15.960 --> 4:12:18.080 passed by the party that's in control of the state 4:12:18.160 --> 4:12:20.920 legislature and they want to maintain power with their party, 4:12:21.120 --> 4:12:22.720 So that's going to be the most effective way to 4:12:22.760 --> 4:12:25.120 do that. And if they just do that, then there 4:12:25.400 --> 4:12:27.920 leaves very little ground for these maps to be challenged 4:12:27.920 --> 4:12:30.640 on any sorts of racial grounds, even if there is 4:12:30.720 --> 4:12:33.520 racial discrimination as an effect. Right, And this was the 4:12:33.560 --> 4:12:36.760 biggest change of the Supreme Court ruling in Louisiana. It 4:12:36.880 --> 4:12:40.280 was a Ledo right who technically wrote that one. Yeah, yeah, 4:12:40.440 --> 4:12:42.720 but being like, like, we are in a different place, 4:12:43.240 --> 4:12:46.000 we are in a different social place now than when 4:12:46.000 --> 4:12:48.680 the Voterarts Act was passed, and so therefore we are 4:12:48.680 --> 4:12:52.440 going to update these rules accordingly. Even though literally, you know, 4:12:52.560 --> 4:12:55.640 three years ago the Supreme Court was ruling in the 4:12:55.680 --> 4:13:00.160 opposite way in Alabama in a very similar situation. The 4:13:00.240 --> 4:13:02.880 change in those few years is very stark. And this 4:13:02.920 --> 4:13:06.240 is all goes downstream from the ruling in twenty nineteen 4:13:06.280 --> 4:13:10.560 that specifically allows partisan jerrymandering, because there's no law in 4:13:10.560 --> 4:13:13.120 the United States disallowing that. So like the Supreme Court 4:13:13.200 --> 4:13:15.120 is like, we cannot make a new law by saying 4:13:15.120 --> 4:13:17.640 this isn't allowed, because there's just no law in the books. 4:13:17.680 --> 4:13:20.480 So if if legislation wants to pass laws against that, 4:13:20.480 --> 4:13:24.520 then they can but we cannot disallowed partisan jerry manoring 4:13:24.600 --> 4:13:27.440 in the courts effectively because there's no law preventing it. 4:13:27.840 --> 4:13:31.480 Yeah, and it's worth keeping in mind that the specific 4:13:31.560 --> 4:13:34.920 standard in the Voting Rights Act literally says effects, which 4:13:35.040 --> 4:13:37.800 was just specifically an effects based test and not an 4:13:37.840 --> 4:13:41.840 interpretation or like not a like proving intent test. And 4:13:41.960 --> 4:13:44.600 the Supreme Court was just like, no, fuck you. So 4:13:45.080 --> 4:13:47.360 that's sort of just where we are now legally, is 4:13:47.400 --> 4:13:50.560 that they're just making up what they think the test 4:13:50.680 --> 4:13:52.760 should be and making everyone else follow that. 4:13:54.960 --> 4:13:57.840 Yeah, I mean three three justices did dissent in this 4:13:57.880 --> 4:14:01.240 recent ruling, sort of aur Kagan and Jackson, they wrote, 4:14:01.280 --> 4:14:04.880 quote before the Court are two paths. Down one lies 4:14:04.920 --> 4:14:08.040 an orderly election held under a tried and tested congressional 4:14:08.040 --> 4:14:10.840 map that protects black Alabama's right to vote and with 4:14:10.880 --> 4:14:14.800 which all voters, election officials, and candidates alike are familiar. 4:14:15.320 --> 4:14:18.400 Down the other lies a chaotic election held under a 4:14:18.520 --> 4:14:22.000 never before use congressional map that intentionally discriminates against Black 4:14:22.000 --> 4:14:26.200 Alabama's that Alabama adopted in unabashed defiance of a prior 4:14:26.280 --> 4:14:29.880 court order directly affirmed by this Court, and that will 4:14:29.880 --> 4:14:33.320 require official to change the voter registrations of hundreds of 4:14:33.360 --> 4:14:37.000 thousands of voters in just days at best, a task 4:14:37.000 --> 4:14:42.200 Alabama previously represented would take months. The majority chooses the 4:14:42.280 --> 4:14:46.040 second path and disregards both democratic values and the rule 4:14:46.080 --> 4:14:50.640 of law. I respectfully dissent. We'll go on a break 4:14:50.720 --> 4:14:54.600 now and conclude with one more section of the. 4:15:06.120 --> 4:15:08.080 And we are back. 4:15:09.200 --> 4:15:15.160 So, all right, we need to talk about a fairly 4:15:15.160 --> 4:15:19.960 obscure bureaucratic rule change that is being rushed out by 4:15:20.600 --> 4:15:23.840 the Office of Management and Budget OMB, which is where 4:15:25.040 --> 4:15:28.720 it's the management bureaucracy office that's currently headed by one 4:15:28.760 --> 4:15:32.280 of the guys who wrote Project twenty twenty five. This 4:15:32.560 --> 4:15:37.280 change that they are proposing right now is effectively the 4:15:37.320 --> 4:15:43.560 formalization of all of the sort of DOGE cuts and 4:15:43.600 --> 4:15:48.800 then sort of post DOGE departmental cuts of grants from 4:15:48.840 --> 4:15:52.080 the US government. The way this is largely being covered 4:15:52.120 --> 4:15:54.480 right now, and I understand why we're going to run 4:15:54.480 --> 4:15:57.560 through that one first, is that this is effectively the 4:15:57.600 --> 4:16:00.520 death of American science. Because one of the things that 4:16:01.240 --> 4:16:04.960 this does, it's like a four hundred page document. One 4:16:05.000 --> 4:16:07.840 of the early sessions of it is that instead of 4:16:08.520 --> 4:16:12.920 the current system where grants for scientific projects go before 4:16:13.040 --> 4:16:17.360 a peer review committee of scientists that are usually independent, 4:16:18.080 --> 4:16:21.640 and then those scientists give their recommendations to the department 4:16:21.720 --> 4:16:24.160 on whether or not this is a good use of funds, 4:16:24.160 --> 4:16:28.160 and then department executes those recommendations. Right, so grants are 4:16:28.160 --> 4:16:32.480 determined by scientific by a scientific peer review process. This 4:16:32.800 --> 4:16:36.280 kills that and says that instead of agent the way 4:16:36.280 --> 4:16:38.640 that it has worked, which is that agencies adopt the 4:16:38.680 --> 4:16:42.240 recommendations of it. This has not been how it works formally, like, 4:16:42.320 --> 4:16:44.880 it hasn't been a legal stipulation that this is how 4:16:44.880 --> 4:16:47.520 it works. But this is just literally how all science 4:16:47.520 --> 4:16:51.080 has worked since World War Two, basically, with the exception 4:16:51.120 --> 4:16:55.200 of the McCarthy era, is that these independent committees do 4:16:55.360 --> 4:16:57.520 the review of the grants and then the federal agencies 4:16:57.720 --> 4:17:00.880 submit the grants. Instead of that, the heads of federal 4:17:00.880 --> 4:17:04.400 agencies will appoint one person who will individually look through 4:17:04.480 --> 4:17:08.920 every single grant and approve or deny them. So this 4:17:09.320 --> 4:17:11.720 is the formalization of the DOGE process. This is the 4:17:11.720 --> 4:17:17.040 administration basically centralizing control of the entire scientific grant process. 4:17:17.080 --> 4:17:19.360 And this actually turns out, it turns out is for 4:17:19.440 --> 4:17:21.960 all grants, which we'll get to in a second. But 4:17:22.000 --> 4:17:25.960 what this means is that instead of again like scientific 4:17:25.960 --> 4:17:29.080 peer review being the thing that decides what science gets funding, 4:17:29.480 --> 4:17:34.760 it's now political appointees, and specifically Trump administration political appointees. 4:17:34.840 --> 4:17:37.360 There are a whole in this ruling. There are a 4:17:37.400 --> 4:17:40.680 whole bunch of absolutely or not other's really the pros change. 4:17:41.480 --> 4:17:45.160 There is just a bunch of just absolutely unhinged creeds 4:17:45.360 --> 4:17:50.520 about the US anti AIDS programs turning into woke left 4:17:52.240 --> 4:17:57.880 mobs in Africa that support like gender politics and stuff. 4:17:58.160 --> 4:18:01.760 I've found very incoherent explaining that, I swear to God, 4:18:01.800 --> 4:18:04.200 I am more coherent than actually reading out the quote. 4:18:04.240 --> 4:18:09.120 It's just it's completely unhinged, like weird right wing conspiracy 4:18:09.120 --> 4:18:10.840 stuff for like half of it, and half of it 4:18:10.880 --> 4:18:13.520 is like extremely technical budget change stuff. 4:18:13.800 --> 4:18:15.400 I know that in the Doge stuff this has been 4:18:15.400 --> 4:18:18.120 talking about like, you know, sexual health clinics in like 4:18:18.160 --> 4:18:20.520 a country in Africa that's supported by the US government. 4:18:20.640 --> 4:18:23.800 Right, yeah, yeah, they're they're they're pulling all these examples 4:18:23.800 --> 4:18:26.040 and then just like screaming stuff about how they're like 4:18:26.080 --> 4:18:30.760 abortion centers and you know, like doing like genital mutilation 4:18:30.920 --> 4:18:34.040 or whatever. There's been some good reporting on this by 4:18:34.200 --> 4:18:37.520 Elizabeth Janexi, who used to do like program reviews for 4:18:38.000 --> 4:18:41.680 the NIH before a lot of things, including this administration, 4:18:41.760 --> 4:18:48.400 took over. This is effectively the centralization of all of 4:18:48.400 --> 4:18:50.840 the grants given up by the US government. Right, And 4:18:51.680 --> 4:18:52.960 if you remember, if we think back to like the 4:18:53.000 --> 4:18:56.200 early days of DOGE, right, well you'd find these giant 4:18:56.240 --> 4:18:58.200 lists of grant that they've gone through and just cut 4:18:59.000 --> 4:19:01.280 and they had apps no legal authority to do that, 4:19:01.320 --> 4:19:05.680 they just did it. This is the formalization of that process. 4:19:05.840 --> 4:19:06.120 Right. 4:19:06.200 --> 4:19:09.280 This is setting up to bureaucratic apparatus to allow just 4:19:09.760 --> 4:19:13.000 one random groper they've like hired and stashed off at 4:19:13.000 --> 4:19:16.200 a room and like benih or something, to just go 4:19:16.320 --> 4:19:18.720 through and cut whatever grants they want. They also have 4:19:18.760 --> 4:19:22.200 the power to terminate grants that have already been given 4:19:22.200 --> 4:19:26.600 out at will. There's other even weirder things where they're 4:19:26.640 --> 4:19:30.120 also very paranoid about, like scientific collaboration with other countries, 4:19:30.160 --> 4:19:32.320 which is just the basis of how all science is done. 4:19:32.960 --> 4:19:37.160 There's like restricted countries effectively where you can't collaborate with 4:19:37.160 --> 4:19:41.640 scientists from those countries, which even by US standards, is 4:19:42.480 --> 4:19:48.480 like not how things work. That's like messed up by 4:19:48.480 --> 4:19:53.280 the standards of like American foreign policy. And then also 4:19:53.560 --> 4:19:57.240 if you are doing any collaboration with any scientists from 4:19:57.240 --> 4:20:00.800 another country and there's money involved in it, that grant 4:20:00.800 --> 4:20:03.760 has to be individually approved by like this person that 4:20:03.760 --> 4:20:08.040 they've set up. So this makes scientific collaboration effectively impossible, 4:20:08.360 --> 4:20:10.560 right because most of those things aren't going to happen, 4:20:10.600 --> 4:20:13.400 because this is going to reproduce the sort of doge 4:20:13.400 --> 4:20:16.000 bottle decks that we saw where suddenly all these grants 4:20:16.040 --> 4:20:18.560 are disappearing, even ones that would eventually get approved. The 4:20:18.560 --> 4:20:21.280 people who were supposed to be getting them are completely 4:20:21.280 --> 4:20:24.840 screwed because their reliance on that grant coming in order 4:20:24.840 --> 4:20:30.440 to do their research, and the pivot in control of 4:20:30.960 --> 4:20:33.560 how these grants are being given out from people who 4:20:33.600 --> 4:20:37.080 are at the very least scientists to you know, just 4:20:37.320 --> 4:20:40.040 the people who are currently running the NIH who are 4:20:40.640 --> 4:20:43.440 like RFK Junior, Right, it's those kind of people who 4:20:43.480 --> 4:20:46.160 are going to be running these kinds of grants, and 4:20:46.720 --> 4:20:50.800 they are going to be able to do damage to 4:20:51.040 --> 4:20:58.000 this that is quite frankly incalculable. This is the destruction 4:20:58.120 --> 4:21:03.080 of the entire system of American science, like almost like vast, 4:21:03.280 --> 4:21:05.560 vast percentages of all the science in the US is 4:21:05.600 --> 4:21:08.400 done off of government grants. Either it's either it's done 4:21:08.560 --> 4:21:12.760 by the NIH or like by by government institutions or 4:21:13.160 --> 4:21:16.360 not entirely all, but a huge portion of science that's 4:21:16.360 --> 4:21:19.360 done at research universities, which is again how like most 4:21:19.400 --> 4:21:23.880 science happens, is also supported by these grants. And if 4:21:23.920 --> 4:21:26.440 we're in this situation now where all of these grants 4:21:27.400 --> 4:21:30.680 are again going through one person who is like solely 4:21:30.720 --> 4:21:33.000 motivated by political factors as to whether Arthur going to 4:21:33.000 --> 4:21:34.760 approved this, which is what the system Maaey're attempting is 4:21:34.760 --> 4:21:38.920 set up. This is the death of American science. And 4:21:38.960 --> 4:21:41.200 it's worse than that too, because and this is the 4:21:41.240 --> 4:21:43.160 thing where I'm going to do a full episode about 4:21:43.160 --> 4:21:45.680 this next week because there are a lot more implications. 4:21:45.680 --> 4:21:49.120 But the section of rules that's being changed here by 4:21:49.440 --> 4:21:51.800 the Office of Management and Budget, this is not the 4:21:51.880 --> 4:21:55.000 session for the grant allocation for science, right, this is 4:21:55.040 --> 4:21:57.680 the section for all grants given out by the US 4:21:57.720 --> 4:22:03.800 by the US government. So for example, medicaid, Yeah, so 4:22:03.840 --> 4:22:06.560 all of that is now subject to this stuff, right, 4:22:06.640 --> 4:22:10.240 like disaster aid, you know, like any money the government 4:22:10.320 --> 4:22:13.000 is giving out right, that this is going through the 4:22:13.000 --> 4:22:18.000 grant system is now going through this process. Yeah, there's 4:22:18.360 --> 4:22:23.240 I think public comment on this ends July seventh, So 4:22:23.440 --> 4:22:25.280 I guess if you want to scream at them, that's 4:22:25.320 --> 4:22:29.240 technically possible. It's really not clear if democratic politicians are 4:22:29.280 --> 4:22:32.800 going to actually try to substantively do something to stop this, 4:22:33.280 --> 4:22:37.720 which there's no direct legal mechanism for them to stop this. 4:22:38.040 --> 4:22:42.320 They could do another government shutdown or something. But yeah, 4:22:42.680 --> 4:22:44.480 this is just sort of the state of things, which 4:22:44.520 --> 4:22:45.920 is that a lot and a lot of this stuff 4:22:45.920 --> 4:22:48.640 has already been happening. It's worth saying, right, like a 4:22:48.640 --> 4:22:53.000 lot of these funding for everything from like vaccine programs 4:22:53.040 --> 4:22:56.080 to like the very small amount of help research that 4:22:56.160 --> 4:22:58.240 was going in the trans healthcare or like Queer healthcare 4:22:58.280 --> 4:23:02.320 in general, Like those grants are as gone. And you know, 4:23:02.400 --> 4:23:04.640 we've already seen a whole bunch of chaos from the 4:23:04.680 --> 4:23:06.800 interruption of the grant system on the sort of university 4:23:06.840 --> 4:23:09.560 level for scientists. But this is all just going to 4:23:09.600 --> 4:23:13.280 get significantly worse as this rule change rolls out. 4:23:13.680 --> 4:23:14.360 Yeah. 4:23:14.600 --> 4:23:16.720 Yeah, So on that happy note. 4:23:17.800 --> 4:23:21.920 Last week, the former chief patrol agent for the El 4:23:22.000 --> 4:23:28.120 Centro sector and also Commander of Voy Patrols Operation at Large, 4:23:28.320 --> 4:23:33.040 Gregory Bovino took to X the Everything app to announce 4:23:33.080 --> 4:23:35.640 that he was on his way to Delaney Hall. Wasn't 4:23:35.680 --> 4:23:39.240 exactly clear why, because Pavino is no longer a serving 4:23:39.640 --> 4:23:42.400 law enforcement officer. In fact, he was en route to 4:23:42.440 --> 4:23:46.600 a remigration summit in Portugal. That the conference, Baveno joined 4:23:46.640 --> 4:23:51.880 politicians from Fox and Afteray they spoke sort of behind 4:23:51.920 --> 4:23:54.600 closed doors. Journalists who wanted to cover the event had 4:23:54.600 --> 4:23:56.520 to stay in a car park outside, where they were 4:23:56.520 --> 4:23:59.720 harassed by a drone. He's not listed on the website, 4:23:59.760 --> 4:24:02.120 but it's like a sort of mystery speaker, and I'm 4:24:02.120 --> 4:24:05.960 guessing that that that was him, right, remigration people, I'm familiar. 4:24:05.960 --> 4:24:07.480 We're going to do a whole episode on this next week. 4:24:07.480 --> 4:24:09.840 But the website for the conference sets it out as 4:24:09.880 --> 4:24:13.480 a set of fiscal, cultural, economic, social, political, and logistical 4:24:13.480 --> 4:24:17.320 policies whose objective is to prevent population and replacement through 4:24:17.360 --> 4:24:22.600 the reversal of migratory flows. It is very explicitly about undocumented, documented, 4:24:22.680 --> 4:24:26.080 and naturalized people. It's not about following the law. It 4:24:26.160 --> 4:24:29.440 is explicitly racial. It's about race, nicity, religion, and the 4:24:29.520 --> 4:24:33.560 idea of national purity and cleansing the nation of people 4:24:33.600 --> 4:24:36.120 who it considers not to be pure. If you think 4:24:36.160 --> 4:24:38.920 this is something that has maybe happened before in European history, 4:24:39.080 --> 4:24:41.720 you would not be alone. Greg Bavino took the chance 4:24:41.800 --> 4:24:45.800 to compare himself to rommel in one interview. Free also 4:24:45.840 --> 4:24:50.360 compared himself to T Lawrence and pattern, which is a 4:24:50.360 --> 4:24:56.680 fairly remarkable set of yes, yeah, right, without without skipping 4:24:56.720 --> 4:24:59.280 a bee. Maybe he's one of those guys who's like 4:24:59.320 --> 4:25:04.080 a clean ver guy. He also sort of it was interesting, 4:25:04.200 --> 4:25:05.760 Like I said, I'm going to break this down more 4:25:05.920 --> 4:25:07.920 next week. I think what was more interesting than like 4:25:07.960 --> 4:25:11.120 Greg Bavino talks to Nazis about Nazi shit, which that 4:25:11.200 --> 4:25:15.760 come on, what does one expect is the way he 4:25:15.920 --> 4:25:18.600 talked about stuff in terms of like the role he 4:25:18.760 --> 4:25:22.160 sees Border Patrol having. He referred to them. He said 4:25:22.160 --> 4:25:24.440 they are often referred to as a federal law enforcement 4:25:24.520 --> 4:25:27.320 marine corps. The Border Patrol can operate anywhere in the 4:25:27.360 --> 4:25:31.600 United States and associated territories and simultaneously fulfill all enforcement missions. 4:25:31.920 --> 4:25:34.520 It goes on. He goes on to talk about them. 4:25:34.600 --> 4:25:37.600 He says that they are the only organization capable of 4:25:37.680 --> 4:25:39.640 planning and executing this type of operation. 4:25:40.280 --> 4:25:41.080 He's not wrong. 4:25:41.480 --> 4:25:43.960 They are the only agency that could do something like 4:25:44.400 --> 4:25:47.960 a mass deportation campaign like we're seeing. But like this, 4:25:47.960 --> 4:25:51.840 this Marine Corps, of the Internal Marine Corps is interesting, right, 4:25:51.880 --> 4:25:53.480 that is how they have been used, especially by the 4:25:53.520 --> 4:25:56.120 Trump administration. Right, think of Portland in twenty twenty, right, 4:25:56.200 --> 4:25:59.760 Like these are the government's goons. Like when they need 4:25:59.760 --> 4:26:01.880 a hit squad to fuck people up, this is who 4:26:01.920 --> 4:26:05.560 they go to. Yeah, and that identity is something that 4:26:05.680 --> 4:26:09.560 Baveno out have clearly embraced. Right, But Brevna was in Bortach. 4:26:09.760 --> 4:26:12.400 Not not extremely recently, but he has points in his 4:26:12.440 --> 4:26:15.440 career been in Bortech. He also kind of tried to 4:26:16.200 --> 4:26:18.840 set distance between BP and ICE, which is interesting. He 4:26:19.160 --> 4:26:21.480 called them. He said, the New York fiasco last night 4:26:21.480 --> 4:26:24.600 in New Jersey illustrates what happens when untrained investigators are 4:26:24.600 --> 4:26:27.480 sent to handle a situation that is the responsibility of 4:26:27.560 --> 4:26:33.440 uniform specialists. He's there suggesting that the ICE employees lacked 4:26:33.520 --> 4:26:36.760 the necessary training to do what I guess they would 4:26:36.760 --> 4:26:38.280 call crowd control. 4:26:38.520 --> 4:26:44.040 Which which is really funny because that's also the Democrats line. 4:26:44.560 --> 4:26:47.520 It's like, oh, well enough, Yeah. 4:26:47.640 --> 4:26:49.880 Well his line is therefore like turn it over to 4:26:49.920 --> 4:26:51.400 the people who are well trained enough so we can 4:26:51.440 --> 4:26:53.200 suck them up, which I guess is also kind of 4:26:53.200 --> 4:26:56.080 what the Democrats are. It's not a million miles part. 4:26:57.920 --> 4:27:01.120 Butveno has also been doing some right wing podcast want 4:27:01.160 --> 4:27:04.880 on the border Hawk podcast, where he appeared seemingly from 4:27:04.920 --> 4:27:07.800 his office behind him, he had a shadow box. Does 4:27:07.800 --> 4:27:09.840 anyone want to hazard a guess what was in the 4:27:09.840 --> 4:27:14.960 shadow box? Military memorabilia of a certain kind. Yeah? Is 4:27:15.000 --> 4:27:18.360 it German Nazi cross? No, it is. It is contemporary, 4:27:19.120 --> 4:27:21.160 it pertains to his career. That's good. 4:27:21.720 --> 4:27:23.720 Is it his one of his challenge coins that he 4:27:23.800 --> 4:27:26.080 got from fucking Chicago or wherever. 4:27:26.560 --> 4:27:29.040 They're probably smart enough not to put their challenge coins 4:27:29.080 --> 4:27:30.720 on public display anywhere. 4:27:30.800 --> 4:27:31.000 Yeah. 4:27:31.120 --> 4:27:33.440 No, it's a bunch of left lisal grenades. Ah okay, 4:27:33.440 --> 4:27:37.200 of course, like the thing with which I guess he 4:27:37.200 --> 4:27:39.120 wishes to be associated. 4:27:38.640 --> 4:27:40.120 I have a lot of those in my house too, 4:27:40.640 --> 4:27:41.400 he used once. 4:27:42.680 --> 4:27:45.200 It's just like taking pride in being the guy who 4:27:45.240 --> 4:27:47.680 stamped down harder on the First Amendment than anyone has 4:27:47.680 --> 4:27:48.520 in recent history. 4:27:48.680 --> 4:27:48.960 Cool. 4:27:49.760 --> 4:27:54.480 He's also been very critical of current DHS leadership, right 4:27:54.880 --> 4:27:58.160 after Buffino and Nome took to the national media to 4:27:58.280 --> 4:28:01.120 lie about Alex pretty in the hours to Alex Pretti Guide, 4:28:01.120 --> 4:28:04.520 they both became too toxic even for this administration, and 4:28:04.520 --> 4:28:06.240 he clearly has some hard feelings about this. 4:28:06.640 --> 4:28:09.680 He mentioned the twenty million figure. My figures one hundred million. 4:28:09.960 --> 4:28:13.000 His is twenty million. Now, let's take a look at 4:28:13.000 --> 4:28:17.800 that number. Dan, So we've got, by Tom Holman's estimate, 4:28:17.840 --> 4:28:21.000 twenty million illegal aliens. If that's the case, then he's 4:28:21.160 --> 4:28:25.840 already arrested one tenth of all illegal aliens present in 4:28:25.880 --> 4:28:29.280 the United States. Do you see that with your eyes 4:28:29.400 --> 4:28:31.680 on the streets? Do I see that with my eyes 4:28:32.120 --> 4:28:34.520 on the streets? If it's really going that good? A 4:28:34.640 --> 4:28:38.800 tenth of all illegal aliens and they're all legal aliens, 4:28:38.960 --> 4:28:42.240 they're not immigrants or anything else, illegal aliens A tenth. 4:28:42.320 --> 4:28:45.480 If there were a tenth already deported, the rest would 4:28:45.480 --> 4:28:49.200 be buttoned up tighter than you can imagine. Those lines 4:28:49.320 --> 4:28:51.840 southbound for self deportation would be out the door. 4:28:52.280 --> 4:28:53.280 That's not happening. 4:28:53.720 --> 4:28:54.920 This is really interesting. 4:28:55.120 --> 4:28:58.400 Yeah, we'll go into this specific episode. The way he 4:28:58.480 --> 4:29:02.640 arrives at that number is through the number of traffic 4:29:02.680 --> 4:29:06.880 delays in Charlotte, North Carolina, during the border patrol operation there. 4:29:06.920 --> 4:29:10.640 What this is the evidence he cites? Yeah, wow, Okay, 4:29:11.000 --> 4:29:13.640 it's fascinating. Like he talks about how he thinks a 4:29:13.720 --> 4:29:16.160 number is higher because of his time at border patrol rate. 4:29:16.720 --> 4:29:19.840 He may think there is like one hundred million illegal immigrants. 4:29:19.880 --> 4:29:22.160 So he believes this in his yeah, like deep down 4:29:22.360 --> 4:29:25.920 in Yeah, Like he's interesting. Yeah, this is a one hundred 4:29:26.000 --> 4:29:29.520 what he believes, and he wants to deport that many people. 4:29:29.640 --> 4:29:31.320 Yeah. I don't know if it's that he believes there's 4:29:31.360 --> 4:29:33.600 that many people who are illegal in the way, Yeah, 4:29:33.720 --> 4:29:38.240 he doesn't differentiate or he's just considering everyone who is 4:29:38.280 --> 4:29:39.800 not you know, white here. 4:29:39.960 --> 4:29:43.440 Yeah, well, I mean he he did differentiate in this video, well, 4:29:43.440 --> 4:29:44.280 which is interesting. 4:29:44.360 --> 4:29:47.440 He did. No, no, no, that's not what that meant. 4:29:47.440 --> 4:29:50.840 But yeah, yeah, he was making the case that anyone 4:29:50.960 --> 4:29:54.520 border patrol goes after as an illegal alien I think, I. 4:29:54.480 --> 4:29:56.040 Mean, but that's not what he said. 4:29:56.320 --> 4:29:58.000 Well, I mean what he said was the term that 4:29:58.080 --> 4:30:00.280 you should use for these people is illegal alien. It's 4:30:00.280 --> 4:30:02.800 not migrants or something like. He does not like that. 4:30:02.880 --> 4:30:04.960 A lot of folks think it's wrong to refer to 4:30:05.000 --> 4:30:07.480 a human being as illegal. That's specifically what he's saying, 4:30:07.520 --> 4:30:10.520 Like he's not making a deeper point than that, but 4:30:10.640 --> 4:30:12.920 I do think his belief is that that one hundred 4:30:13.000 --> 4:30:16.440 million number includes a lot of people who were for example, 4:30:16.560 --> 4:30:20.160 naturalized or who were made citizens through like juice solely, 4:30:20.280 --> 4:30:22.640 which we've seen, like he thinks should go away, and 4:30:22.680 --> 4:30:23.600 so does the administration. 4:30:23.920 --> 4:30:27.560 Yeah, or indeed like people on thesis right, yes, well, 4:30:27.560 --> 4:30:27.880 but I. 4:30:27.840 --> 4:30:29.440 Mean more like like if you're if you want to 4:30:29.440 --> 4:30:32.160 get you one hundred million, you're you're deporting people who 4:30:32.160 --> 4:30:34.520 are just non white, like you can't there aren't a 4:30:34.640 --> 4:30:36.600 hundred million like natural like. 4:30:37.080 --> 4:30:39.600 But it's it sounds like he just believes there is 4:30:39.640 --> 4:30:43.280 like way more undocumented immigrants in the United States than 4:30:43.280 --> 4:30:46.040 what there actually is, like that is in this short clip, 4:30:46.080 --> 4:30:47.720 but that is what he's like referring to. 4:30:47.800 --> 4:30:49.960 In part because he believes a lot of people who 4:30:50.240 --> 4:30:54.240 everyone else would consider legally immigrating have not like that 4:30:54.400 --> 4:30:56.440 is part of why he's saying. And now there's also 4:30:56.480 --> 4:30:58.560 a belief that like the number that the government's lying 4:30:58.560 --> 4:30:59.840 to you about how many of them there are, the 4:31:00.160 --> 4:31:02.080 vastly more. But part of it is he does not 4:31:02.160 --> 4:31:05.000 believe a lot of the ways that people become citizens 4:31:05.120 --> 4:31:08.040 who are not white are legitimate, Like that is an 4:31:08.080 --> 4:31:09.200 aspect of what he's saying. 4:31:09.720 --> 4:31:12.640 Yeah, he spoke about this at length in his interview. Right, 4:31:12.640 --> 4:31:16.040 he was saying how many people he'd seen. He talks 4:31:16.040 --> 4:31:19.360 about whole villages in Mexico coming across the border. He 4:31:19.400 --> 4:31:23.480 loves It is fairly familiar rhetoric, right, I can. I'm 4:31:23.520 --> 4:31:26.240 just scrotting down here if I can find his one hundred 4:31:26.360 --> 4:31:30.440 million claim. One hundred million pure researchers figure hasn't changed 4:31:30.440 --> 4:31:33.880 since the nineteen seventies, he said. He says thirty years ago, 4:31:33.880 --> 4:31:37.200 illegal immigrants were absent from large portions of American territory. 4:31:37.240 --> 4:31:40.200 I don't know where he's getting that information. He said. 4:31:40.280 --> 4:31:43.720 He began seriously examining these numbers in two thousand and eight. 4:31:44.760 --> 4:31:48.040 He then says that around two thousand and six he 4:31:48.240 --> 4:31:52.120 found some information from bear Stearns. That's a bank. They're 4:31:52.160 --> 4:31:54.600 like an investment bank. I think. He claims that drove 4:31:54.640 --> 4:31:57.960 his number. He saw an uninterrupted flow of illegal immigrants 4:31:58.000 --> 4:32:01.880 across the border without any internalation capable of producing mass 4:32:01.880 --> 4:32:04.520 expulsions from two thousand and six to twenty twenty six, 4:32:04.920 --> 4:32:08.360 Our borders were nothing but speed bunks. Illegals and smugglers 4:32:08.400 --> 4:32:10.480 knew that once across the border, they were virtually saved 4:32:10.480 --> 4:32:14.560 from any consequences. Of course, that does include Trump's first term. 4:32:14.920 --> 4:32:18.240 But then he goes on to cite these bizarre statistics 4:32:18.280 --> 4:32:20.760 like I'll just I'll give you the Charlotte traffic example. 4:32:21.280 --> 4:32:23.720 One of the indicators away looking at is commuting times. 4:32:23.840 --> 4:32:26.440 For these times to be considered quote unquote good, between 4:32:26.440 --> 4:32:28.560 fifteen and twenty percent of commuters must be taken off 4:32:28.560 --> 4:32:30.920 the road. In Charlotte, there a one hundred and fifty 4:32:30.920 --> 4:32:34.160 three thousand commuters per day. Approximately as soon as we 4:32:34.200 --> 4:32:37.000 launched operations, Charlotte's web travel times did not move into 4:32:37.000 --> 4:32:40.400 the good category. They moved into the excellent category. Estimates 4:32:40.400 --> 4:32:42.640 indicated that thirty percent or more of commuters were no 4:32:42.720 --> 4:32:45.760 longer traveling. This means that at least thirty percent of 4:32:45.800 --> 4:32:49.840 them were most likely legal immigrants. That is a logical yeah, 4:32:50.360 --> 4:32:52.280 across the grand canyon of logic. 4:32:52.560 --> 4:32:55.400 Jesus ChRI Christ, I'd read that that's how he's calculator, 4:32:55.520 --> 4:32:59.000 which you know, cuts out a lot of obvious reasons 4:32:59.000 --> 4:33:01.920 people might not drive during this who are legal, like 4:33:01.960 --> 4:33:07.040 the fact that ICE has undeniably deported citizens and taken 4:33:07.040 --> 4:33:09.480 people into custody for long periods of time it were citizens, 4:33:09.520 --> 4:33:10.120 you know, Yeah. 4:33:09.919 --> 4:33:12.360 That they've pulled random brown people out of cause that 4:33:12.400 --> 4:33:16.320 they've shot and killed people, Like yes, yeah, this happened 4:33:16.360 --> 4:33:18.960 also in late November of twenty twenty five, a time 4:33:19.000 --> 4:33:21.600 where people travel, a time when people get sick. Yeah, 4:33:21.680 --> 4:33:25.360 commutes generally go down in late November. Commuters fluctuate. 4:33:25.480 --> 4:33:25.880 Yeah like that. 4:33:26.000 --> 4:33:27.440 Yeah, it's just gibberish. 4:33:27.520 --> 4:33:30.280 It's an insane way to draw the conclusion he's drawn. 4:33:30.520 --> 4:33:31.720 Yeah, yeah, it's it's bunkers. 4:33:32.120 --> 4:33:34.040 It's also it's also this thing where it's like in 4:33:34.120 --> 4:33:36.640 order to like think this is what's going on, Like 4:33:36.640 --> 4:33:38.600 one of the premises of this is like, oh, it's 4:33:38.600 --> 4:33:40.840 like the illegal aliens that are like making every single 4:33:40.919 --> 4:33:43.840 problem bad, Like you see this with yeah, like the 4:33:43.880 --> 4:33:45.440 people who support this on lines who are like, oh, 4:33:45.480 --> 4:33:47.720 the housing crisis would end if we just deported everyone, 4:33:47.759 --> 4:33:50.680 and it's like yeah, yeah, yeah, obviously no, But like 4:33:50.800 --> 4:33:53.160 they're coming at it from the motivated reasoning of I 4:33:53.200 --> 4:33:54.840 want to do an ethnic cleansing, and then they're sort 4:33:54.840 --> 4:33:56.800 of post hawk creating justifications for it. 4:33:56.919 --> 4:33:59.560 This is what fascism does, right. It blames yeah yeah, 4:33:59.560 --> 4:34:02.160 all the pro blooms of the chosen group on the scapegroat. 4:34:01.759 --> 4:34:03.039 Claims these economic problems. 4:34:03.120 --> 4:34:07.200 Yeah yeah, yes, like they've seen in Quannata fascism and 4:34:07.240 --> 4:34:09.240 it's very core. Is this, This the idea of a 4:34:09.440 --> 4:34:11.879 chrosen group and a scapegoat group, and escapegoat group are 4:34:11.880 --> 4:34:14.440 responsible for the decline of the chosen group and if 4:34:14.480 --> 4:34:16.480 they can be removed, the chosen group will return to 4:34:16.520 --> 4:34:20.600 its former glory. Like that is yeah, fascism in five minutes, 4:34:21.080 --> 4:34:25.640 and that's what we're seeing, right, unsurprisingly given that he's 4:34:25.640 --> 4:34:28.880 at a conference with straight up Nazis. But I think 4:34:28.960 --> 4:34:33.320 this one hundred million number is interesting, and like what's 4:34:33.400 --> 4:34:35.960 interesting is him talking in a way that he didn't 4:34:36.000 --> 4:34:39.400 talk to the press when he was in charge of 4:34:39.400 --> 4:34:42.560 Border Patrol, but he probably did, believe, but Vino is 4:34:42.600 --> 4:34:46.000 popular among Border Patrol agents, right. There are a number 4:34:46.040 --> 4:34:48.280 of them who feel that he was the leader that 4:34:48.320 --> 4:34:51.600 they needed. He showed up in the field, right, He 4:34:52.040 --> 4:34:54.400 had the support of agents because he was there with them, 4:34:54.440 --> 4:34:57.759 and like him believing this tells us a lot about 4:34:57.759 --> 4:35:00.480 the agency, And I think that's something I want to 4:35:00.600 --> 4:35:05.360 dive deeper into next week. Okay, and email us with 4:35:05.400 --> 4:35:09.000 your news tips cool Zone Tips at proton dot me. 4:35:09.440 --> 4:35:11.079 Yeah, put a transcroll on your couch. 4:35:11.600 --> 4:35:14.280 Well, friends, that's going to be it from all of 4:35:14.360 --> 4:35:18.160 us at It could Happen Here ed this week. 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