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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: It's bare time, yep, it's bad time. Hi everyone, welcome

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Speaker 3: to take could Happen Here? A podcast where I talk

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Speaker 3: to Molly Konga about animals.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Molly, I'm so excited to learn about bears.

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Speaker 5: I've been thinking about it all week.

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Speaker 3: That's atacta good You've had good bad thoughts, because there

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Speaker 3: are people who think about beads a lot, and I

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Speaker 3: think it's not good for the mental well being.

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Speaker 4: I was trying to find if I took a picture

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Speaker 4: of that time a baby bear was like standing on

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Speaker 4: the Median Strip outside my old apartment and I couldn't

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Speaker 4: find it, so I was thinking about him.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, I hope he's okay. He's found a better

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Speaker 3: place to be in the Median Strip. I bought a

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Speaker 3: show and tell item today. Molly can see it. No

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Speaker 3: one else can.

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Speaker 4: I was hoping he was going to be a live bear.

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Speaker 3: It's not a live bear. I don't I'm not allowed

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Speaker 3: because of Woke. You can't have a pet grisly bear.

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Speaker 4: If you're about to tell me that those are bear antlers,

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Speaker 4: I'm leaving.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's from These are actually original Jacalobe antlers from

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Speaker 3: the California Jackalobe. Now it's a mule deer shared antler.

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Speaker 3: I thought it was cool. I thought you'd like to

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Speaker 3: see it.

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Speaker 6: It's beautiful.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think lots of people don't realize that the antlers

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Speaker 3: fall off and regenerate.

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Speaker 4: I feel like he's been a long time growing those.

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Speaker 3: Yeah he did, and then he just left them there

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Speaker 3: as a gift for me in the wilderness. So I

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Speaker 3: have a few of these.

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Speaker 4: He's not getting laid this spring.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, he's going to grow some more, ok and

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Speaker 3: he's going to fight another dude with them in order

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Speaker 3: to get laid.

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Speaker 4: So that fell off in a fight.

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Speaker 5: So he's just walking around with one. Oh he'd okay,

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Speaker 5: he shed them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah that they shed them and regenerate them. Okay, like

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Speaker 3: this is how. This is how they get bigger and

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Speaker 3: more robust antlets each time. But they put a lot

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Speaker 3: of a caloric energy into growing these.

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Speaker 4: That seems like that would really take a lot out

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Speaker 4: of you.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, then they get horny and fight with other male

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Speaker 3: deer for quite a while. Those antlers not horns, that's correct,

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Speaker 3: but the horny is not related to them. Yeah, they

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Speaker 3: go and then they yeah, they lose a lot of

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Speaker 3: weight in that ratting time and then they have to

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Speaker 3: gain it all back before the winter.

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Speaker 4: Just so focused on fighting and fuck, and they can't

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Speaker 4: even eat.

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Speaker 3: Yep. It's the many such cases, many such cases. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: So I'm not talking about mule deer today and that

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Speaker 3: they are cool. The first time I saw when I

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Speaker 3: was like, I see why they call it a mule deer.

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Speaker 3: Really got the ears going on. I want to talk

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Speaker 3: about another type of charismatic North American megafauna, bears. So

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Speaker 3: there are three species of bear in North America. Should

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Speaker 3: have quiz, molly, you know what they are?

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Speaker 4: Okay, grizzly, brown, black.

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Speaker 3: Close that's for it's going to keep praying.

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Speaker 6: Bears.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, nominally they are, but I think, yeah, you didn't

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Speaker 3: get them all during your period of guessing brown, black,

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Speaker 3: and polar. Within brown bear, we have grizzly bears, brown bears,

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Speaker 3: and Kodiak bears. We used to think that the California

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Speaker 3: bears were a different species and not they just lived here.

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Speaker 4: They just have different politics.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly. They we'd have been legalized, so they

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Speaker 3: just sort of thing differently. The brown bears are what

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Speaker 3: I want to talk about, So I'm going to use

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Speaker 3: brown bear as like a blanket term for when they're

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Speaker 3: on the coast in Alaska, they're called brown bears, right,

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Speaker 3: and those are generally the biggest ones. And if you

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Speaker 3: ever seen it, if you've been to Alaska, Molly no.

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Speaker 4: I would love to go to Alaska.

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Speaker 8: I've never been.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Alaska fucking rips. I love Alaska.

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Speaker 5: I found out recently that black bears can be brown,

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Speaker 5: and I just think we need I think we need

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Speaker 5: to re evaluate the naming system.

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Speaker 3: It's not good, yes, because people, you know.

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Speaker 5: The advice about a brown bear versus a black bear

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Speaker 5: is different. But if a black bear can be brown,

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Speaker 5: and you're relying on a rhyming phrase to know what

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Speaker 5: to do, you don't know what kind of bear that is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they call them cinnamon bears sometimes the brown black bears. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you can tell a grizzly bear the bigger they've got

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Speaker 3: that more pronounced hump. They have a different shape to them.

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Speaker 4: No, you can tell. I cannot.

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Speaker 3: You'll fucking know that. Grizzly bears coming like they don't

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Speaker 3: make themselves, you know, quiet, but yeah, the big hump,

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Speaker 3: they've got a more pronounced hump. Grizzly bets can also

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Speaker 3: really get into like a blonde coloration even.

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Speaker 5: Well yeah in California, sure everybody's blonde out there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they get frosted tips when they live by the

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Speaker 3: coast for too long and they listen to sublime here. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: let's talk about bears. I get my bear interactions by

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Speaker 3: way of establishing some credibility. I want to point out that, like,

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Speaker 3: interacting with bears doesn't make non expert I'm not an expert,

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Speaker 3: And what we're going to talk about here is non

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Speaker 3: experts interjecting their inexpert opinions about bears and why that's

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Speaker 3: actually a problem.

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Speaker 5: I'm probably interacting with bears is not a desirable outcome

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Speaker 5: for most listeners.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I love a bear like I see

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Speaker 3: because I come from a place where there's very little

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Speaker 3: that can kill you. Well, I mean there are things, right,

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Speaker 3: there are cars, and we have cancer in the UK

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Speaker 3: as well, of course, but like animal wise, you're more

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Speaker 3: or less nuclear.

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Speaker 9: Right.

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Speaker 3: We have adders, which is a type of snake and

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Speaker 3: they are venomous. But like, I can't think the last

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Speaker 3: time I ever heard of someone getting killed, but I'm

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Speaker 3: sure someone has been killed by an adobyte, but it's

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Speaker 3: very rare.

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Speaker 5: Now you don't have when you have a lion on

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Speaker 5: like a flag or something, somebody has one.

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Speaker 3: But I have a few lions. We've got some flag lions. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know the lines, the lines In fact, we I

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Speaker 3: love the lines on a flag because they're drawn by

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Speaker 3: someone who's never seen a lion. But just like a

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Speaker 3: game of telephone has resulted.

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Speaker 4: Anybody he knows they're very majestical.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's majestic, kind of like a dog longer hair.

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Speaker 3: I think there was the input before he drew the lines.

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Speaker 3: I kind of like being on the landscape with animals

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Speaker 3: that are bigger than me and like they are the

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Speaker 3: apex predator. The first time I saw Grizzly Bear, I

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Speaker 3: had a bush planed to a lake in the Wrangle

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Speaker 3: sent Elias Wilderness. It's in Alaska, Southeast Alaska, massive wilderness area,

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Speaker 3: and we were gonna hike around a bit and then

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Speaker 3: pack raft off the end of the glacier. There it

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Speaker 3: goes into like a meltwater river, and so the river's

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Speaker 3: kind of different every years as it melts and the

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Speaker 3: river streams brayed together. Then we were going to pack

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Speaker 3: for a few days and then hike out and that

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Speaker 3: was a fun adventure. So we landed, we hiked a bit,

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Speaker 3: we inflated our little boats, and we paddled across the

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Speaker 3: lake at the end of the glacier, and then we

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Speaker 3: got to pace where were camping, went on a walk

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Speaker 3: and immediately saw a sat grizzly bear and her cups,

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Speaker 3: which was sick.

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Speaker 5: That's cute as hell. I would love to see that.

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Speaker 5: I would love to see some baby bears.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's sick. I'd best to stay away from them.

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Speaker 3: That's when they can get angry.

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Speaker 5: I would like to see them from like over here, yeah,

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Speaker 5: and then they can be over there, like maybe on

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Speaker 5: the other side.

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Speaker 6: Of a river.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I get well, the bears, there's none afraid of water,

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Speaker 3: but yeah, that's they do love to eat salmon. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was sick. That was a sick trip. Generally, we've

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Speaker 3: got to see the glacier carving, so like that's when

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Speaker 3: a little baby glacier is born. Right, But the glacier

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Speaker 3: a section of it broke off, and I'm talking a

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Speaker 3: section of size of like a city block here.

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Speaker 4: Why but it's so shiny when it breaks.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's shiny and it's allowed. It's like an earth

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Speaker 3: shattering rumble.

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Speaker 9: Right.

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Speaker 3: And then this thing was it was majestic, right, Like

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Speaker 3: it looks like a mountain has fallen into the water

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Speaker 3: and that was cool as fig and then you realize that,

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Speaker 3: like it has displaced a mountain sized amount of water.

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Speaker 10: Mood.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and now there are like fridge sized ice blocks

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Speaker 3: coming at head height towards you. So yeah, we did

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Speaker 3: some fast uphill running in that moment. But it was

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Speaker 3: a last So it was summertimes. It wasn't getting dark, right,

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Speaker 3: you have like twenty four hours sunlight, so at least

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Speaker 3: it wasn't dark when that happened.

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Speaker 4: Only time to run from the glacier.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, great time to run from the glacier. I wouldn't

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Speaker 3: want to do it in the wintertime. I don't think

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Speaker 3: they carve in the winter time. Maybe they still do.

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Speaker 3: I think it's to do with temperature rising. So that

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Speaker 3: was my I've seen a lot of black bears. I'm

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Speaker 3: a San Diego black bear truther. But it's another fun

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Speaker 3: thing about me. For some reason, people don't think there

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Speaker 3: are black bears in San Diego, and that is not true.

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Speaker 3: I have seen barefootprints, people have seen bears on game cameras.

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Speaker 3: Bears pop up on top of Mount Palamar all the time.

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Speaker 5: It's like the ongoing feud about whether or not we

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Speaker 5: have panthers on the East coast.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you guys love to It's like a Carolina

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Speaker 3: panther or something.

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Speaker 4: People are very sure I have no skin in this game.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a breeding family of mountain lions

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Speaker 3: now maybe in Michigan. So they're getting closer, they're getting

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Speaker 3: They're coming your way as you soon will. I've seen

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Speaker 3: a lot of bears, or a good number of bears.

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Speaker 3: Seen a lot of black bears right, we have them

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Speaker 3: in California. The fact that I've seen bears does not

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Speaker 3: make me a bear expert. And another non bear expert

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Speaker 3: has been diving into the discourse on bears after.

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Speaker 2: A tragedy like genuinely a terrible.

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Speaker 3: Thing, when a hiker lost their life in Glassier, we'll

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Speaker 3: try and to say the American way Glacier National Park.

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Speaker 5: We're going to get messages about this, this British word.

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Speaker 3: Yeah right, it's not like a buffalo issue. I'm just

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Speaker 3: straight colonizing it. I'm sure it had an indigenous name,

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Speaker 3: and so so are you if you're saying Glacier. This

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Speaker 3: is really sad, right. A hiker from Florida was more

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Speaker 3: by a bear, Andyde very shortly in relation to that,

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Speaker 3: serious injuries occurred in another morning in Yellowstone National Park.

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Speaker 3: Not so long ago, a contractor really uranium mining site

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Speaker 3: was killed by a black bear in British Columbia and

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Speaker 3: Canada a couple of weeks ago, maybe thirteenth of May.

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Speaker 3: It looked like unusual to be killed by a black bear,

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Speaker 3: probably worth pointing out that very rare for black bears

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Speaker 3: to kill people. And also someone at that site clearly

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Speaker 3: had a firearm because they euthanased the bear. Euthanas dies

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Speaker 3: a phraser used there. They killed it right like it

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Speaker 3: wasn't suffering. I don't think that they killed the bear

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Speaker 3: pretty shortly thereafter, and it's undergoing a neckt now. But

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Speaker 3: that's another incident I guess to add to this list.

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Speaker 3: And again right there, there was a firearm present. There

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Speaker 3: is seems in there that didn't prevent the person being

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Speaker 3: mauled by the beck. And so former Interior Secretary Ryan

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Speaker 3: Zinky has decided to wade into the debate. Do we

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Speaker 3: remember Ryan Zinky?

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Speaker 5: He's not the one from Real World road Rules, right,

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Speaker 5: so that's the transportation guy.

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Speaker 3: I don't think so. If he is, I'm not aware

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Speaker 3: of what Real World road Rules is.

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Speaker 5: I'm just having drouble remembering which members of cabinet have

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Speaker 5: been on reality TV, and I don't think this is

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Speaker 5: one of them.

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Speaker 3: Okay, sorry, no, not to my knowledge. Zinky, he was

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Speaker 3: maybe seal officer. He's now representative from Montana. He was

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Speaker 3: Interior secretary in Trump's first administration. He presided over a

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Speaker 3: series of attacks on public lands, so that we saw

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Speaker 3: in Trump one point over.

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Speaker 4: Exactly what you want to see from your secretary of

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Speaker 4: the Interior.

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Speaker 9: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's trying to rebrand himself as some kind of

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Speaker 3: protector of public lands. Now he's kind of too late.

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Speaker 3: On that one in my opinion, but he's certainly on

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Speaker 3: the protector of bears. Last week he tweeted, maybe he's

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Speaker 3: zeated and we're not doing that. We're gonna okay dead

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Speaker 3: naming it. Last week, two grizzly bear attacks claimed the

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Speaker 3: life of a hiker in Glacia National Park and seriously

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Speaker 3: injured to others in Yellowstone National Park. The tragedies are

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Speaker 3: a sobering reminder that grizzly bear populations have recovered well

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Speaker 3: beyond sustainable levels and it is time for Oh, we

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Speaker 3: should start killing them. Yep. It's past time for the

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Speaker 3: federal government to delist them and give states to management tools.

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Speaker 3: Got them back, Yeah, we're going to kill them back.

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Speaker 3: This is what we do.

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Speaker 8: Eye for an eye for Florida man.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I was speaking to a bear a scientist who studies

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Speaker 3: human bear interactions this week, and he referred to these

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Speaker 3: as revenge killings. Yeah, because they won't just kill. They

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Speaker 3: often in many instances don't know which bear. Sometimes we

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Speaker 3: can we can that we can know the size of

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Speaker 3: the bear right from like the size of the jaws

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Speaker 3: that we can have several bears. There are different sizes

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Speaker 3: of jews. Seems a distance between the different teeth stuff

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Speaker 3: like this.

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Speaker 5: Right, right, Like if one bear is like if it's

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Speaker 5: like a jaw situation, like one bear just has it

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Speaker 5: out for hikers.

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Speaker 4: Sure, I guess go get him.

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Speaker 3: But that's not like it's not happening. Yeah, and they

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Speaker 3: will end up killing a number of bears in an

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Speaker 3: area when this stuff happens, right, which is it's just

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Speaker 3: a revenge killing. So we're taking out like we're taking

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Speaker 3: out our anger on that species because they came after

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Speaker 3: our species.

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Speaker 5: It seems like the problem is not that there's too

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Speaker 5: many bears.

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Speaker 3: That is correct, Molly, That is that is why we're

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Speaker 3: here today.

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Speaker 5: He seems to be positioning this as there's just too

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Speaker 5: many bears. People just can't avoid the bears because there's

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Speaker 5: so many bears.

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Speaker 3: Then it's not the case. Millions of people every year

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Speaker 3: visit the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem, and very few of them

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Speaker 3: see a bear, right.

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Speaker 4: And even few of them touch a bear.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're touching a grizzly bear. It's a bad day,

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Speaker 3: viet Let's I guess it has decided it wants to

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Speaker 3: be touched.

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Speaker 5: I don't want a victim blame obviously, Like these are

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Speaker 5: wild animals that are unpredictable.

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Speaker 4: You're in their home. What does guy do? Why was

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Speaker 4: he so close to the bear?

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Speaker 3: We don't know exactly what this I did. There are

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Speaker 3: a number of bear safety things which I do want

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Speaker 3: to talk about, And I spoke to Tom Smith last

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Speaker 3: week and I'm going to turn that into another podcast,

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Speaker 3: but like, this is the person who is the guy

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Speaker 3: who writes the studies on human interactions with bears right

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Speaker 3: and specifically on how those could be like de escalated.

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Speaker 3: And he said he's not aware of an incident in

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Speaker 3: which someone has been killed by a bear in which

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Speaker 3: they were adhering to all the best principles right now.

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Speaker 5: I'm not blaming the victim, Like if you don't know,

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Speaker 5: you don't know, you're inexperienced outdoorsman or whatever.

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Speaker 8: But I feel like.

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Speaker 5: There's a series of just like pieces of advice and

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Speaker 5: if you follow them, you're not going to get in

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Speaker 5: that situation most of the time.

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Speaker 3: Mostly most of the time. Yeah, I think if I

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Speaker 3: was going into bear country, I wouldn't take a dog.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people take dogs. Dog is a great

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Speaker 3: way to find a bear. You're looking for a bear,

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Speaker 3: you could go send out your dog, and it'll come

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Speaker 3: back to you with a bear and toe some like

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Speaker 3: hunting dogs and also tree bears. But that's not what

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Speaker 3: I'm talking about.

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Speaker 4: It because the bear sees the dog as a delicious snack.

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Speaker 3: I think the dog sees as a bear as a threat, right,

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Speaker 3: and I'll stop back and they'll get and then like

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Speaker 3: the bear then obviously sees a dog as what the

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Speaker 3: fuck is this little animal? A begs predator here? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: Like we're locked in, and the dog can smell the bear, right,

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Speaker 3: so it's going to find it, and the be can

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Speaker 3: smell the dog, so they're going to find each other.

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Speaker 5: I guess I was thinking of my dog, which a

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Speaker 5: bear would definitely see is a delicious snack.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, your dog, I could see. Maybe it'd be sub

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Speaker 3: snack sized, it wouldn't be worth it, but.

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Speaker 4: Like a little cocktail weenie.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a sausage dog would try it, it wouldn't give it,

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Speaker 3: like I've seen. I've sent you a video of a

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Speaker 3: sausage dog, Yeah, chase chasing off a mountain lion like

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Speaker 3: they didn't give a fuck. Very brave.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, don't take a dog, don't try and pet it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, don't take a dog, don't try and pet it.

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Speaker 3: In this instance, I think the person was moving through

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Speaker 3: thick country where the bear was probably foraging for berries,

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Speaker 3: and they probably startled the bear, as you don't want

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Speaker 3: to start the bet If you're moving through thick country

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Speaker 3: like that, that's when people will say hey bear, or

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Speaker 3: they'll use a bear bell, or they'll talk loud and

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Speaker 3: converse with people in their group. It is generally preferred

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Speaker 3: to be in a group when we're in grizzly country, right,

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Speaker 3: not on our own. We don't know the details of

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Speaker 3: this incident. There have been some reports that the person

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Speaker 3: discharged bear spray, and I want to get onto the

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Speaker 3: best ray topic, late Bex. They have a lot to

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Speaker 3: say about that. Let's go back and talk about the

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Speaker 3: bears in the history.

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Speaker 4: Yes, contextualize the bear.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, rensink he wants to delist the bear from the

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Speaker 3: Endangered Species Act. Right, bears haven't always been protected by

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Speaker 3: the Dangered Species Act. That's why California has a bear

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Speaker 3: on its flag that doesn't live here anymore.

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Speaker 4: Oh, we don't have those anymore.

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Speaker 3: No, we kill them ball. We don't have brown bears here.

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Speaker 4: So is he on the flag? Because you're sorry? About

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Speaker 4: it because you're proud of it.

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Speaker 3: No, I think it's more of a pride thing. I

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Speaker 3: think it's more of a ye, we got him, fucking yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I don't actually know what he's on the flag. I'll

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Speaker 3: do some searching. I'm pretty sure it's not because we're

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Speaker 3: sorry about it. We have a good source right of

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Speaker 3: what European people did when they first encounter bears. It's

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Speaker 3: not my story from Alaska.

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Speaker 8: Oh.

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Speaker 4: I thought they did not know about them.

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Speaker 3: Well they did, because, as it turns out, as Lewis

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Speaker 3: and Clark were moving across the plains right, they encountered

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Speaker 3: indigenous people who very specifically told them not to fuck

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Speaker 3: with bears. Let me quote from Lewis's diary.

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Speaker 5: I thought you would not have to tell like if

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Speaker 5: I have never I had no concept of bear, and

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Speaker 5: I see a bear, my instinct is going to be

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Speaker 5: I'm going to leave that guy alone.

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Speaker 3: See Yeah, but these guys are just built different. As

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Speaker 3: it turns out, they're bear poking and no desire is

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Speaker 3: extremely turns out counterproductive for them. Let's read from the

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Speaker 3: Lewis and Clark diary. Is a first on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Quote the Indians give a very formidable account of the

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Speaker 3: strength and ferocity of this animal, which they never dare

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Speaker 3: to attack, but in parties of six, eight or ten persons,

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Speaker 3: and are even then frequently defeated with a loss of

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Speaker 3: one or more of their party. This animal is said

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Speaker 3: to more frequently attack a man on meeting with him

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Speaker 3: than filly from him. When the Indians are about to

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Speaker 3: go in quest of the white bear, previous to their departure,

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Speaker 3: they paint themselves and perform all these superstitious rites commonly

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Speaker 3: observed when they're about to make war upon a neighboring nation.

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Speaker 3: I think he's talking about brown bears. We talked about

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Speaker 3: white bears.

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Speaker 5: Zeb I was gonna say, is he talking about polar bears,

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Speaker 5: because you definitely don't do that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I do not fuck with it. Bare polar

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Speaker 3: bear will end you. That was on the fifteenth of April.

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Speaker 5: So he's like, yeah, it takes eight or ten guys,

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Speaker 5: usually one of them dies.

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Speaker 4: They don't always succeed.

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Speaker 8: I'm gonna go check it out.

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Speaker 4: I got it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yep. So by early May, Captain Clark and Dryer

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Speaker 3: killed the largest brown bear this evening which we have

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Speaker 3: ever yet seen. It was a most tremendous looking animal

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Speaker 3: and extremely hard to kill. Notwithstanding he had five balls

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Speaker 3: through his lungs and five others in various parts. He

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Speaker 3: swam more than half the distance across the river to

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Speaker 3: a sandbar, and it was at least twenty minutes before

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Speaker 3: he died. Then they go and say they thought it

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Speaker 3: weighed about five hundred pounds, but they didn't have any

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Speaker 3: apparatus to weigh. So that's the first interaction with a bear.

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Speaker 3: Less than a month later, quote, six good hunters of

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Speaker 3: the party fired at a brown or yellow bear several

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Speaker 3: times before they killed him, And indeed he had like

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Speaker 3: to have defeated the whole party. He pursued them separately

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Speaker 3: as they fired on him, and was near catching several

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Speaker 3: of them. He pursued two of them separately, so close

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Speaker 3: that they were obliged to throw aside their guns and

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Speaker 3: pouches and throw themselves into the river, although the bank

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Speaker 3: was nearly twenty feet perpendicular.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so enraged was this animal that he plunged into

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Speaker 3: the river only a few feet behind the second man

436
00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,320
Speaker 3: he had compelled to take refuge in the water. When

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Speaker 3: one of those he still remained on the shore shot

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Speaker 3: him through the head and finally killed him.

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Speaker 4: That's not fair. They should have let him have that guy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah's eye for an eye, Like it's fascinating to me,

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Speaker 3: right that, like you do see this sometimes in like

442
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,280
Speaker 3: indigenous people's records. Right, there was I forget his name,

443
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,440
Speaker 3: I forgot I was reading about this one Indigenous American

444
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:52,680
Speaker 3: guy who was like, every time I see a bear,

445
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:53,879
Speaker 3: I got to go try to take it on. But

446
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,520
Speaker 3: like he recognized that was like not a normal response, right,

447
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,760
Speaker 3: Whereas apparently everyone in Lewis and Clark's party was immediately

448
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,280
Speaker 3: after killing the first bear they saw, despite having been

449
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:05,080
Speaker 3: told we.

450
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:06,159
Speaker 4: Found the murder monster.

451
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it tells me so much about the American psyche,

452
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:12,399
Speaker 3: right that the Indigenous people were like, you know, they

453
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:13,560
Speaker 3: they will kill you.

454
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:15,399
Speaker 5: And like how much bear meat were they eating?

455
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it may be a bit. I don't know,

456
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,600
Speaker 3: like you can eat bare meats kind of greasy from

457
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:21,199
Speaker 3: what I understand.

458
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,800
Speaker 4: So they're just going after bears just because it's fun.

459
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,640
Speaker 3: I do understand that Lewis and Clark had to collect

460
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,639
Speaker 3: and catalog animals, which obviously they didn't bring them back alive. Right,

461
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,640
Speaker 3: they brought back skulls and hides and that kind of thing,

462
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,680
Speaker 3: so that the Western way of understanding the world could

463
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,000
Speaker 3: catalog and understand these animals. And there is a great

464
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,720
Speaker 3: deal of knowledge that that way of seeing the world

465
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,600
Speaker 3: gain from that expedition. But they also mixed it up

466
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,320
Speaker 3: with a lot of bears. You can read more examples

467
00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,879
Speaker 3: in their diaries. There's this idea that still exists in

468
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,760
Speaker 3: parts of the American sort of psyche that we don't

469
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,080
Speaker 3: have to live alongside nature. We have to conquer it right,

470
00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,920
Speaker 3: that we have to prove us are like apex position,

471
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:02,960
Speaker 3: and that doesn't always go well for us.

472
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:04,960
Speaker 4: I don't need to prove anything to a bear.

473
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm at peace. I'm happy to coexist with bears.

474
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,720
Speaker 3: I'm happy that they're there, They're happy that I'm here.

475
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,280
Speaker 3: I hope we can have a nice time. I don't

476
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:16,360
Speaker 3: want to fight with bears. Lewis and Clark, by the way,

477
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,640
Speaker 3: I find that Lewis and clark Is vision fascinating. Like

478
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,440
Speaker 3: at the time they were crossing the plains, they were

479
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,119
Speaker 3: meeting with indigenous people who had been to Paris to

480
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:26,639
Speaker 3: check it out and come home.

481
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:28,959
Speaker 4: I have no concept of that.

482
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,359
Speaker 3: Right. We see them as like questing into the great unknown,

483
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:33,960
Speaker 3: and these people are like, yeah, no, I went over,

484
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:34,560
Speaker 3: but those.

485
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,200
Speaker 4: People have, they've been out back.

486
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 11: Yeah.

487
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, they just didn't want it right. They came back

488
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 3: because they liked it. They were having they were fine.

489
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,280
Speaker 3: It wasn't that they hadn't been exposed to the European world.

490
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,960
Speaker 3: It was just that the European world had not physically

491
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,560
Speaker 3: expanded to attempt to colonize the places that they lived. Certainly,

492
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:52,520
Speaker 3: this idea that they going on.

493
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,400
Speaker 4: It really makes what they did a lot less impressive.

494
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

495
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,439
Speaker 3: I mean it was a long journey, sure.

496
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,520
Speaker 5: I mean people hug the Abaloche of Trail every year.

497
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:01,680
Speaker 5: I'm not impressed.

498
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,199
Speaker 3: That does go a perpendiculative.

499
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,000
Speaker 4: I'm just saying people walk a thousand miles all the time.

500
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They did a lot of canoeing. It's

501
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,200
Speaker 3: a weird hobby Lewis and Clark. It's just a fun hobby.

502
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,520
Speaker 3: I like walking. But yeah, I mean it's an impressive journey.

503
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 3: But like I think sometimes we have this idea of

504
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 3: them like questing into the unknown, and that's just not it.

505
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:19,560
Speaker 3: That have met people who have been like oh yeah,

506
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,520
Speaker 3: I've been there, Like, what do you think of Paris. Sadly,

507
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 3: the Lewis and Clark expedition was not the low point

508
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,680
Speaker 3: for the grizzly bear population, but money. Talking of low points,

509
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,199
Speaker 3: now is a time for us to transition to an

510
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:47,920
Speaker 3: advertisement for products and services. All right, we are back.

511
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 3: I want to quote from a federal court case here

512
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,359
Speaker 3: on protections for bears. By the nineteen thirties, just one

513
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 3: hundred and twenty five years after European settlers moved into

514
00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 3: Grizzly Country, grizzly bears were found in only twocent of

515
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,720
Speaker 3: their former range. Nor did this monk the low point

516
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,200
Speaker 3: for the grizzly Thirty seven separate grizzly populations were identified

517
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,359
Speaker 3: in the contiguous United States in nineteen twenty two. Only

518
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 3: six remained nineteen seventy five.

519
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 4: So is this largely habitat encroachment or over hunting or

520
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 4: I mean, obviously.

521
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 3: Both all of the above.

522
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 4: Like, so we were just going out there and shooting them,

523
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:22,640
Speaker 4: just the bounties.

524
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,919
Speaker 3: There were bounties for men by the millions. Yeah, they

525
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 3: were paying people to shoot the bears.

526
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 4: We've got a buffalo situation.

527
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:30,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we got a buffalo situation here.

528
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 5: So this wasn't just like people doing hobby hunting and

529
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 5: like concurrent habitat encroachment. This was like an intentional destruction

530
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 5: of bear.

531
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 3: The bear doesn't coexist well with like the human habitation

532
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 3: and specifically like animal.

533
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 2: Agriculture, right, like it is that's not a great name.

534
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't give a fuck, and it's

535
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 3: a big animal and it will tear shit down and

536
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,239
Speaker 3: people are scared of it. Bears used to live all

537
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 3: across the plains, right, It was only a small segment

538
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 3: of the bears that in the mountains. They're the ones

539
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,439
Speaker 3: that survived, just because those are the areas that it

540
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,360
Speaker 3: was harder to make amenable to capitalism.

541
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,679
Speaker 4: That never occurred to me. Yeah, that never occurred to me.

542
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 4: That they have retreated from the hills to get away

543
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 4: from us.

544
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think it's that the Plains bears went

545
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 3: to the hills. I think it's that the Plains bears

546
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 3: are gone.

547
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 5: Right, They're just the ones that survived because they were

548
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 5: like that's crazy.

549
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,400
Speaker 4: The bears just used to be roaming around down here.

550
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, the bears would be out and about. Actually, the

551
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 3: eastern most grizzly bear sow with cubs that I'm aware

552
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 3: of is on the APR, like in the Missouri River

553
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 3: breaks that's in the American Prairie Reserve. People who didn't

554
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 3: listen to a Buffalo episode callback, Yeah, that's what's what

555
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 3: they call a call back in the industry. The bears

556
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 3: used to be all around, right, Like, I guess maybe

557
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,120
Speaker 3: if the plains right or an area that's especially kind

558
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 3: of appealing, especially when we look at like the period

559
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 3: after the nineteen twenties, right when people were trying to

560
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 3: bring the planet to heal through the application of technology. Right.

561
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 3: I think it's I'll do Leopold who talks about the

562
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 3: way humans fuck with ecosystems as a bit like somebody

563
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 3: who doesn't know how Watch works taking a part of

564
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 3: Watch just being like that fucking cogails doesn't look like

565
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 3: it's doing much to me. Let me whip that bad

566
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 3: boy out, like make it lighter.

567
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,360
Speaker 5: I always think of what was it somebody who's colonizing

568
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 5: and farming in Hawaii brought mongoose because they thought the

569
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 5: mongoose would eat some They thought the mongoose would eat

570
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:25,879
Speaker 5: something that was causing a problem for the crops.

571
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 4: It turns out the mongoose don't even eat that so now,

572
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 4: but like feral mongie.

573
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,919
Speaker 5: Sometimes, like around sunset at the beach, you'll see all

574
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 5: these like mongoose just like coming out of the underbrush

575
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 5: taking over the beach.

576
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 3: Okay, that's amazing.

577
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 4: Because like they have no natural predators there.

578
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, like yeah, introducing animals into ecosystems and removing

579
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 3: animals from ecosystems has all these downstream effects that like

580
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 3: we never think, like I am to Sophie about this today.

581
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 3: Like I grew up in the UK, right, where we

582
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 3: have tons of rabbits.

583
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 4: Oh, she has a rabbit in the garden today, does

584
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:56,159
Speaker 4: she show you?

585
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 3: Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, I've seen a rabbit. Yeah, it's

586
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 3: able to identify it. The rabbit population is high in

587
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 3: part because we've removed many of their predators. Right, the

588
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 3: wolves are gone in the UK, The bears are gone

589
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 3: in the UK. We have some foxes, but not as

590
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 3: many because they are dangerous to sheep populations.

591
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 6: Right.

592
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 3: We have some raptors, but not as many. So now

593
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 3: we have times to rabbits. When the rabbits do well,

594
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 3: they eat crops in part, right, and they come in

595
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 3: and eat your carrots as depicted in the Peter rabbit.

596
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 5: Oh, a Peter rabbit is just tearing the garden apart

597
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 5: every day. Mister McGregor was right.

598
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 3: It's a bold statement. Molly Konga childhood villain. Now, the

599
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 3: rabbits have a disease called mix and mitosis, which is

600
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 3: horrific disease where like they sort of become almost like zombified. Yeah,

601
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 3: I think it. It came from Australia.

602
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 4: They've got a rabbit problem.

603
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 3: Well, they were trying to eradicate them, right, so.

604
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 4: Also they invented a rabbit disease.

605
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 3: I don't know this is what now I'm wondering if

606
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 3: they invented the rabbit disease.

607
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 4: Lit's because they did that to another invasive animal.

608
00:25:58,240 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 2: Right, Well, they lost a war.

609
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 4: They gave them all a disease.

610
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 3: I'm not even then they lose a war against emuse,

611
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 3: that's right. The Australians really have a bad record.

612
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

613
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 3: So basically it is a disease that existed in American

614
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 3: rabbits only causes mild issues with them, but it is

615
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 3: horrific in European rabbits.

616
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, it looks like they did it on purpose. Yep,

617
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 4: you know creat up guys.

618
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, mixmatosis and rabbits, like is a thing that like

619
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 3: genuinely as a kid would like, So I used to

620
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 3: shoot a lot of rabbits when I was a kid, Right,

621
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 3: and you shoot these rabbits with mixed motosis and be

622
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 3: like what the fuck is this? Like how have we

623
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 3: done this to a living creature? They become so incapacitated

624
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 3: that like sometimes crows will start eating them before they've died,

625
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 3: or like they wander onto the road and get hit. Right,

626
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 3: it's really really really horrible.

627
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 4: Oh I'm looking this up and I regret.

628
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, yeah, Google makes motosis pictures at your own risk.

629
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 4: No, don't, actually don't.

630
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 7: Yeah.

631
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 3: It almost looks like they have like cataracts over their

632
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 3: their eyes. It's it's really really horrible, right, But like,

633
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 3: this is what happens when we continually try and mess

634
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 3: with an ecosystem that has existed in harmony, and like

635
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 3: it changes based on inputs and changes in the climate. Right, Like,

636
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 3: it's not like it's a fixed thing. It has shifted

637
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 3: and changed through time, but it has found a balance

638
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 3: every time. And then we come in and just keep

639
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 3: pressing one side of the scale.

640
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 6: This will fix it.

641
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, more, but keep chucking more on there and wondering.

642
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 4: Kill the bears back.

643
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 5: I just I can't get that's just like a child's

644
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 5: approach to things.

645
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 3: This is our policy, right, Like, okay, so let's talk

646
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 3: about Zincy, right, let's talk about let's talk about the

647
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 3: protections that he wants to take away. These protections were

648
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 3: passed into law by the Endangered Species Act in nineteen

649
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 3: seventy three, and the Endangered Species Act lists grizzly bears

650
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 3: and the lower forty eight as threatened. If you're not

651
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 3: familiar with the essay, it prevents you from hunting, harming,

652
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 3: or harassing lifted species without a special permit.

653
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 4: Maybe he thought he's supposed to threaten them.

654
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, like harass them, Like maybe it's going to

655
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 3: do it threatened yea, these.

656
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 4: Are threatening, of course we should threaten.

657
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was going to post a mean tweet about them.

658
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 3: They didn't want to be accused of harassing them and

659
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,479
Speaker 3: violating the essay. One thing the ESA does not do

660
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 3: is prevent you from defending yourself against these bears, which

661
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 3: it seems to be the implication in his post, right

662
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 3: that like, because you're in you're.

663
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 4: Allowed to defend yourself against a person, so I'm sure.

664
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 3: It's likewise a bet. There was a Night's case not

665
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,919
Speaker 3: so long ago about someone who had killed three grizzly bears.

666
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 5: So if you get arrested for killing an endangered animal,

667
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 5: is it like a murder trial where you have to

668
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 5: like prove self defense?

669
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 3: I think it would depend on where you did it, right.

670
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 3: I was standing my ground your Yeah, sure I was.

671
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 3: I don't even want to make jokes about standiy Grand Miles,

672
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 3: because fucking horrible. The nine second opinion says we hold

673
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 3: the good faith belief defense for a prosecution and then

674
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 3: they give the theal code. Right, it's governed by subjective

675
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 3: rather than objective standard satisfied when the defendant actually, even

676
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 3: as unreasonably, believes his actions are necessary to protect himself

677
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 3: with others from perceived danger from a grisly bear.

678
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 5: That's interesting that the language, because you don't see that,

679
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 5: and so in self defense in like if I harmed

680
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 5: you and an actual No, it doesn't have to be actual,

681
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 5: but it has to be a reasonable assumption, like my

682
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 5: belief has to be reasonable. But in Listen, there's saying

683
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 5: it's okay if your belief was unreasonable. Yeah, if you're

684
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 5: just scared dumb as well.

685
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, if you if you have no idea what

686
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 3: you're doing, you can still kill these bears, right, Like,

687
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 3: it gives you a very broad remit for self defense.

688
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 5: Because you could just say you felt that way, because

689
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 5: it doesn't matter if that's reasonable or not.

690
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it effectively doesn't matter.

691
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, effectively if you if you are willing to state

692
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 3: in court that you were threatened by the bear, I

693
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 3: felt that way, right, it seems like you can you

694
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 3: can shoot the bear. I almost just scared. I'm as

695
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 3: scaredy cat. Maybe it relies on toxic masculinity to like

696
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 3: self self police itself and it's scared.

697
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 12: No.

698
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 3: It also, of course, the say does not include animals

699
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 3: based on how dangerous they are. So like Xinki's argument

700
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 3: that we should deal with bears because two people got

701
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 3: hurt one person got killed, it doesn't line up with

702
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 3: why the essay exists.

703
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 5: And like I'm very sorry for those people, of course,

704
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 5: but like that's not like an epidemic of bear attacks.

705
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 3: No, cattle kill more people by a factor of ten

706
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 3: than bears.

707
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 4: Dogs kill more people with guns.

708
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, lightning kills more people than bears.

709
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 4: Dog shot a lady with a gun the other day.

710
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 3: Oh wow, Well, good for him, like it's good to

711
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 3: see people pushing boundaries. I like, bad for her. I

712
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 3: guess I'm sorry to hear that, but I do think

713
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 3: there are some best practices that could have been followed

714
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 3: there that I prevented the dog shooting.

715
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 4: The dog was certainly not certified on the range, right.

716
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, the dog hadn't gone taken his apple seed clinic

717
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 3: or whatever. So the ESA, right, it distinguishes between a

718
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 3: threatened and engaged species and danger species is quote in

719
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 3: danger of extinction throughout all or a significant part of

720
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 3: its range. A threatened species is quote likely to become

721
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 3: an endangered species within the foreseeable future throughout all or

722
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 3: a significant portion of its range.

723
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 8: Right, Like if we start killing them.

724
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, or keep killing them, yeah.

725
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 5: Right, Ryan, Zincy just opens up on bears.

726
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Zincy taking his Navy steel training and going the.

727
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 4: Sealed Teams six is going to Yellowstone.

728
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, they're going after that bear. Then you know,

729
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 3: then then they look at reasons for this great disease, predation,

730
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 3: destruction of habitat, commercial take, inadequacy of regulatory mechanisms to

731
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 3: protect them, or natural or man made factors, including brand

732
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 3: Zincy killing them because grizzly bears in the lower forty

733
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 3: eight are threatened. There are defined ecosystems. There are six

734
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 3: of them in which we're trying to recover the their population.

735
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 3: So one of these is a Greater Yellowstone ecosystem. The

736
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 3: Yellowstone Bears have been ping ponged around the ESA for

737
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 3: some time. As it turns out, the bears were removed

738
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 3: in two thousand and seven and then returned in two

739
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 3: thousand and nine by a court decision. Then it was

740
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 3: removed again under Zinc in the first Strump administration.

741
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 4: I feel like, if you're on the cusp like that,

742
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 4: leave it alone.

743
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 5: Like obviously if every time you dealist them they become

744
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 5: threatened again, like, leave them alone.

745
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it. Well, in this case, it wasn't. The

746
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 3: reason for the delisting was challenged in court and found

747
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 3: to be insufficient. It wasn't that a population like to

748
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 3: could dive.

749
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 4: We're just changing our mind about how much we care

750
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 4: about bears.

751
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, or like in this case, basically what the court said,

752
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 3: I can actually read you from the court order. It's

753
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 3: crow Indian try their al versus USA. The policy implications

754
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 3: of Great Yellowstone Grizzly delisting are significant, but they cannot

755
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 3: affect the court's disposition. Althose order may have impacts throughout

756
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 3: grisly country beyond. This case is not about the ethics

757
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 3: of hunting. It's not about solving human or livestock grisly conflicts.

758
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 3: As a practical or philosophical matter, these issues are not

759
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 3: before the court. Then, little ellipses where I've skipped a

760
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 3: bit by delisting the Great Yellowstone Grizzly without analyzing how

761
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 3: delisting would affect the remaining members of the lower forty

762
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 3: eight Grizzly designation. The Service failed to consider how reduced

763
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 3: protections for the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem would impact the other

764
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 3: grisly populations. Thus, the Service entirely failed to consider an

765
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 3: important aspect of the problem.

766
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 4: So the Bear has got a good lawyer.

767
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 3: There were two different court cases and they were combined

768
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 3: in this Montana case. Then they got a good lawyer.

769
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 3: Essentially that what they're saying though, right, is that like

770
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 3: this is an issue which we have to look at

771
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 3: like nationally, because if we have state controller and Wyoming

772
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 3: or Montana of the three states, right, Wyoming, Montana and Idaho.

773
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 3: One of them says that we've got too many bears

774
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 3: killing too many cows. That so open it up on

775
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 3: the bears, open season on bears. The bears don't know

776
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 3: what state they're in.

777
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 4: They simply do not respect borders.

778
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 3: They do not they Yeah, they refuse.

779
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 4: To graistictional boundaries meaningless.

780
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 3: To they engage in interstate commerce. So this one, it's

781
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 3: going to be like a federally controlled issue. Unfortunately, our

782
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 3: federal government right now is not one that's massively amenable

783
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 3: to conservation.

784
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 4: It's run by bear murderers.

785
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, they would love to mert. I mean Donald Trump's son,

786
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 3: right is big into Oh.

787
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 5: He does love big game hunting, doesn't he does? He

788
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 5: does some of those like rich boys afar.

789
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's got It's funny.

790
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 3: Someone was like, oh, someone was talking to me the

791
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,280
Speaker 3: other day about like you should picture this outdoor publication,

792
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,720
Speaker 3: and then I realized it was owned by Trump Junior.

793
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 3: So that's a no from me. That's a clear note

794
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,359
Speaker 3: for me. But they love conservations, Yeah, Like I would

795
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 3: be down to picture hunting publication about like the damage

796
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 3: that the border wall does to our landscapes and our

797
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 3: and our like I've seen a mule deer try and

798
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 3: get through the border wall and it's very very Yeah,

799
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 3: it's really sad because she had been habituated going that

800
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 3: way for water genetically for generations, right, and now she

801
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 3: can't And uh, yeah, that's pretty fucked. I'd love to

802
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 3: write that for a hunting publication, not writing it for

803
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 3: Donald Trump Junior's one. I don't think he's commissioning it either.

804
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 3: To be honest, I don't think. I think they're probably

805
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 3: using if I'd had to guess some artificial intelligence, but

806
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 3: I've never actually read it. I'm not going to. Don't

807
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 3: care if you're interested in the ESSA and what it's

808
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 3: done for gristie, but I has something to link to.

809
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 3: A Center for Biological Diversity report, which is pretty good.

810
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 3: This was published when the ESA was fifty, so it's

811
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 3: a few years old now. But people will be thinking,

812
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 3: I have seen pictures of people hunting grizzly bears. I

813
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,359
Speaker 3: thought that you couldn't do that. That's because those bears

814
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,720
Speaker 3: are in Alaska, so they are not considered to be threatened.

815
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 3: Different bears, yeah.

816
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 4: Or like the same species of bears. They just live

817
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 4: somewhere else.

818
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 3: Arctos horribilis. Yeah, the same horibles. Yeah, yeah, they really

819
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,399
Speaker 3: are for him. Yeah, they really screwed him on the name.

820
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 3: This is part of the way the colonial mindset interacts

821
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 3: with nature, right, horrible mister horrible Yeah, horrible bear. That's me,

822
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 3: Like I'm aware of like Arctos Syriacus, which is the

823
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 3: Syrian there, fine, except that makes sense, that's descriptive. He

824
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 3: also lives in other parts of the region. But that's okay. Yeah, yeah,

825
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 3: we could call him Arctos alsham. I guess if we

826
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 3: if we wanted to get with it there there are

827
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 3: translations to the Bible that used Syria to describe the

828
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 3: whole region as well, so it did. It's okay, but

829
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 3: like horrible bear, Yeah, horrible bear. They really did him

830
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 3: dirty on that. One could have got it nice bear.

831
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 3: Maybe our petition for that, he should.

832
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 4: Call it those lawyers from Montana.

833
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 3: I get the coalition together again with the crow tribe,

834
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 3: the bear. It's not inherently horrible, right, We've just been

835
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 3: horrible to the bear. He's just doing what he does.

836
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 8: Maybe that's why he's so bad.

837
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 5: Maybe, right, He's like, you know, if you're gonna call

838
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 5: me horrible, I'll be horrible.

839
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe maybe, maybe he's he's playing to the stereotype.

840
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,760
Speaker 3: So the Alaska bears can be hunted, right, they are hunted.

841
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 3: Things do get a little complicated in Alaska with different

842
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 3: rules gaverning sport hunting and subsistence hunting at federal land

843
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 3: and state land. There is a coal program in Alaska

844
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 3: right now that is understandably very controversial. The idea is

845
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 3: that they will cull the bear to help the caribou

846
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 3: population recover. You are looking at a thing which is

847
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 3: multi factorial and only. But this is like taking the

848
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 3: part out of the watch right that was talking about.

849
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 4: Like, because other things go on for the cariboo.

850
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's not the bear who moved into the

851
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 3: cariboo's home. It is people, right like. And it's not

852
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 3: the bear who caused climate change.

853
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 4: Right like.

854
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 5: There are other factors we could address, but we're taking

855
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 5: it out on the bear.

856
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, which will be a common theme throughout our discussion

857
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 3: here today. But I understand that we want the caribou

858
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 3: herd to survive as well. But if you're trying to

859
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 3: manage the caribou herd for hunting by controlling bear populations

860
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 3: to allow more caribou. I know, I don't think.

861
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,359
Speaker 4: That's we're modifying the wrong varia.

862
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 3: Yes, pretty gate. Yeah, there is Alaska legislation that I

863
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 3: thought was interesting to make such programs go through peer

864
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 3: review that appears to be going absolutely nowhere. It seems

865
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 3: stuck in the Alaska House.

866
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 5: So we had to get a bunch of scientists to

867
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 5: determine whether or not there will be environmental impact of

868
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 5: buffalo going back to where buffalo live, But we can't

869
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 5: get a scientific review of whether or not we should

870
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 5: be killing the bears.

871
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 3: Yes, I know that there are other reasons for us

872
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 3: to do environmental impact studies like hydrology and stuff. Thank

873
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 3: you Eis people who reached out. We appreciate all our

874
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 3: science listeners. But yeah, it is pretty sad that we

875
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 3: can't get up get a I guess the argument would

876
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 3: be per review takes too long, okay, but like you

877
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 3: could get a couple of people to be like, you

878
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 3: know what, it takes a lot longer to get all

879
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 3: the bears back. Get a couple of scientists. It wouldn't

880
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 3: take that long that they need jobs right now. Get

881
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 3: a couple of bear scientists and employe see how it goes.

882
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 2: So let's talk.

883
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 3: About I guess like wy Zincy wants to delist.

884
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 5: Them a Bearstol's wife and.

885
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,439
Speaker 3: Like an eating way they live to Yeah, yeah, yeah,

886
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 3: she's she's living her best life. It seems that one

887
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 3: incident was a sow with cubs who was foraging for berries,

888
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 3: and on the other one was a bear foraging for

889
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 3: berries who was surprised. This is nothing to us a

890
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:45,320
Speaker 3: population levels.

891
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 5: As I said earlier, it's just like it's an unfortunate

892
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 5: thing where somebody was in a bad situation.

893
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's we live in a landscape where things can

894
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 3: kill you. Most of those things are cars, but some

895
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 3: of them are animals.

896
00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 4: Well, we should start shooting the cars.

897
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, but we don't do a revenge attack on foard

898
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 3: every time someone gets in a motor accident. Right. I

899
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 3: looked at bear vault to beare volt. If you're not familiar,

900
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 3: money makes bear cans. You're familiar with bear cans.

901
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:12,439
Speaker 4: So it like tin cans you wear around your next

902
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 4: to you jingle jangle.

903
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,439
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, you can talk to the bear.

904
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 2: He holds one, can you hold the other one?

905
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 5: There's a stroke like he's in history house here in

906
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 5: your tree house exactly.

907
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, you say, I'm coming through you, please don't eat me.

908
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 6: No.

909
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 3: A bear can is a thing that you put your

910
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 3: food in when you're camping.

911
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 4: I was picturing like a big necklace made out of

912
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 4: like old tin cans, like.

913
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:37,280
Speaker 3: An old timey a like a ley, but for cans beans.

914
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know why you You wouldn't need to buy that.

915
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 4: You could make that at home.

916
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can make that for free. Bere Vault keeps

917
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,760
Speaker 3: like an open source collection of bear maulings. Bears, according

918
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 3: to their data, have killed sixty six people since nineteen

919
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 3: seventy four.

920
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 8: That's not very many.

921
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 2: It's not a lot of people, right.

922
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 4: One a year, Yeah, a little more than that.

923
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 3: It's very, very hard to make a public health argument

924
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 3: for dlifting brown bears.

925
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 5: More people, more people than not have measles, like in

926
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 5: my immediate area.

927
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 3: Get well, that's a whole other public health issue. I'm

928
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,720
Speaker 3: afraid when they do ESA studies on what kills bears,

929
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 3: it's human interactions. I noticed a lot of bears, probably

930
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 3: guns mostly trains. Trains kill a lot of bears.

931
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 4: That's so sad.

932
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really sad.

933
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 5: So maybe wait, so you're supposed to make noise of

934
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 5: the bear. Here's you comment. Trains are loud as hell.

935
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 3: They come pretty fast, I think, and I think that

936
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 3: they're not like super loud if you're just like if

937
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 3: they're not trying to be loud, you know, like if

938
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 3: if you're in a linear direction to the train, maybe

939
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 3: they're habituated to it because the trains come so regularly.

940
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 3: I don't know, that's so sad.

941
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,359
Speaker 8: Yeah, I never thought about bear getting hit by a train.

942
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's good. Bears get hit by cars too, especially

943
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 3: black bears. I mean, I'm sure brown bears do. They're

944
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 3: just bigger. I wonder if that's part of why, you know,

945
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 3: like there's a sort of we can't afford to keep

946
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 3: smashing our trains on bears situation here. I'm not sure.

947
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 4: I think the train's probably fine, Yeah, I mean the

948
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:00,479
Speaker 4: train going.

949
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 3: Some of those bears are pretty big. I'm sure it

950
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 3: delays their train operations.

951
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 4: I mean, if there was like a massive train derailment, yeah,

952
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 4: that's maybe we need to build a bear fence or something.

953
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:10,399
Speaker 6: I don't know.

954
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, we have these wildlife under passes right that

955
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 3: allow worldlife to go under or over three ways. While

956
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 3: ago the right was getting really mad about one in

957
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 3: Santa Monica. This was like a I think Benny Johnson

958
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 3: had done like an investigation into this overpass. His theory

959
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 3: here was that the overpass was allowing I'm not joking,

960
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 3: terrible cougars to come into neighborhoods and kill people's children.

961
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 3: We came into the cougar's neighborhood, the cougar's, Benny, are

962
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 3: already fucking there because.

963
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 5: And how many children have been eaten by cougars in

964
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 5: Santa Monica.

965
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 3: I'm aware of one person in California being killed by

966
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 3: a mountain line in the last few years, and a

967
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 3: few more people have been killed, and you can think

968
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 3: of a couple more people.

969
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 4: But mostly on like hiking trails, right, Like it's not

970
00:41:57,920 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 4: their yards.

971
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm not aware of it. Cougar coming into anybody's house.

972
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 3: That's not really how the mountain lion lives its life.

973
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 5: I mean sometimes people's Chihuahuas have lost their lives to

974
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 5: this scourge.

975
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 4: I understand, yeah, yeah, but not their children.

976
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 3: Not their children, And like animals aren't coming to your

977
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,879
Speaker 3: house and taking your child, and the idea that they're

978
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 3: not there anyway, like they if they want to come

979
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 3: into your neighborhood. They can come into your neighborhood. They're

980
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 3: good at moving across country, that's what they do.

981
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 4: This will just keep you from running into it with

982
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 4: your lexus.

983
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly like it. And it's going to allow like

984
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 3: the little mice and other small creatures, right that can't

985
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 3: some nim belief jump over highway barriers. The obvious other

986
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:40,879
Speaker 3: argument for delisting bears is that.

987
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 2: People want to kill them.

988
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 8: Get a different hobby.

989
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 3: You can even kill black bears in most states in

990
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,280
Speaker 3: the Western United States if that's your thing. Right, It

991
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 3: seems like a lot of people just don't want bears around,

992
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 3: and that makes me sad because I think sharing our

993
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 3: landscape with bears is beautiful and they think it's special

994
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 3: that we have this thing in this country, Like it's

995
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 3: one of our national symbolic mammals, right.

996
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,879
Speaker 5: I mean he's like a gigantic guy who just wants

997
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 5: to eat berries and hang out.

998
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, he wants to kill stuff, sure, But.

999
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 5: Like just I love the idea of just like this

1000
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 5: huge animal just like roaming around looking for a little.

1001
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 2: Sweet treat Yep.

1002
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, they they they're incresis precious, They're incredibly adaptable, right,

1003
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 3: they can eat berries, they can eat meat, they can

1004
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 3: eat fish.

1005
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 5: I love when they just take one bite of a

1006
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 5: fish and throw it back so wasteful.

1007
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 3: He's just like me, for real, it's too fishy. He

1008
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 3: wants it, yeah, he wants it like a fresh one.

1009
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 3: The other argument, I guess is a certain population to recovered,

1010
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 3: which kind of it shows a misunderstanding the importance of

1011
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 3: having a population for genetic diversity, right, But also like.

1012
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,399
Speaker 5: I just I'm really stuck on like, just because there's

1013
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:47,839
Speaker 5: a lot of them doesn't mean you have to kill

1014
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 5: There's a lot of squirrels in my neighborhood, but I'm

1015
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 5: not allowed to shoot them.

1016
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:52,280
Speaker 3: And you can't just do a squirrel genocide.

1017
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 5: I think, oh, there's just a lot of these, I'm

1018
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:55,879
Speaker 5: going to do violence on them.

1019
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 3: Just yeah, I don't do that. There are a lot

1020
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 3: of these, and it's been incoming convenient for us, and

1021
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 3: therefore it's interesting to look at like the certain population

1022
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 3: sort of doing well. At the Yellowstone Bears. The Yellowstone

1023
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 3: Bets are much higher meat content in their diet than

1024
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 3: they used to.

1025
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 4: Well, the tourists the reading, Yes.

1026
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 3: That's right, Yeah, that's mostly it. They feed them into

1027
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 3: the moor every year they drop off a bus at

1028
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 3: the bear cave as an offering, and then the bears

1029
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 3: violated the treaty. That's why they're mad. No, it's because

1030
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 3: climate changes is making it hard for them to find

1031
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 3: their berries right, and human pressure is pushing them further

1032
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 3: and further away from certain areas. Eating more meat is

1033
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 3: going to lead to more conflict with hunters, both in

1034
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 3: terms of them both being in the same space at

1035
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 3: the same time trying to do the same thing.

1036
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 5: And honestly, it's so harmful for the bears that they've

1037
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 5: all been listening to Jordan Peterson.

1038
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 8: The cardboard diet is not for everybody.

1039
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 3: Just imagining a bear.

1040
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 8: It's not good advice, you guys.

1041
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, They've become like terrible transfhobs. That's really why

1042
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 3: we want to tea list them. I think we can

1043
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 3: look at what happens when animals lose their protections. We

1044
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 3: can see the way that Wyoming, for instance, dealt with wolves.

1045
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 13: Right.

1046
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 3: Are you familiar with this incident last year of that

1047
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 3: wolf that was like horrifically mistreated in Wyoming. Oh that

1048
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 3: was really fucking gross.

1049
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 4: Did they like torture it?

1050
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 2: Yes?

1051
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 4: Why?

1052
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:19,280
Speaker 3: Because I guess it made them feel big and strong.

1053
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 10: Right.

1054
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 5: So again, this isn't about like managing conflict with livestock.

1055
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 5: It's not about like you know, ecological management, it's not.

1056
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:30,439
Speaker 5: This is about people who just want to hurt animals. Yeah,

1057
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:32,439
Speaker 5: because they didn't just kill this wolf because they didn't

1058
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 5: want it around.

1059
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 4: They did look horrible to it.

1060
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean this guy. There are videos of this,

1061
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 3: right that this guy.

1062
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 5: So they tormented in an animal and then they made

1063
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 5: a video of it. They made like an animal snuff film.

1064
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 5: This is just about torture.

1065
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 3: I'm not saying everyone who wants to dealist Disney Breads

1066
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 3: grispy bears wants to torture them in this way.

1067
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 4: But like this, like this desire to engage in this violence.

1068
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, like for certain people, right, there's an idea somehow

1069
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 3: that they can prove like strength and virility and masculinity.

1070
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 8: Get into powerlifting.

1071
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. So what this guy did the people un familiar

1072
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 3: His name is Cody Roberts.

1073
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 6: Who never met a good Cody.

1074
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:12,240
Speaker 3: I've met some nice coadies.

1075
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 8: Oh no, okay, we know what.

1076
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, he hit the wolf on his he ran down

1077
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 3: the wolf on its snowmobile.

1078
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 4: So it wasn't bothering you. You pursued it.

1079
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, he chased on his snowmobile. He taped its mouth

1080
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 3: shut and took it to a bar.

1081
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 4: Does this man has a wife? Have a wife and

1082
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 4: a she?

1083
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 3: Okay, that's a good question. I'm trying to work out

1084
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 3: if he went to jail eighteen months formation cremation, uh,

1085
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 3: and he gets a prison term if he fails. He

1086
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 3: fathered guilty plea to fellony animal cruelty. I understand that

1087
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:46,439
Speaker 3: there are people like within the hunting ranching outdoor space

1088
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 3: who think this guy's a piece of shit. There are

1089
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 3: many of them, I know many of them.

1090
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,439
Speaker 5: Because that's a very weird thing to do. Like, yeah,

1091
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 5: it's psycho, it's no good thought process. What is shooting it?

1092
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 5: I don't agree with, but I understand that you would

1093
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:02,879
Speaker 5: do that. That's the thing people do. But why did

1094
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 5: you like chase it down and abduct it?

1095
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 3: Yeah? Why did you choose to make this animal suffer?

1096
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 6: Like?

1097
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:11,359
Speaker 3: Like did you just show no respect for life?

1098
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 14: Right?

1099
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 3: Like you we joke like, oh, does you have a

1100
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 3: way of She's okay, but genuinely, this is a person

1101
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 3: who is like a psycho, Like.

1102
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 4: No, I'm not joking. I'm not joking.

1103
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 5: Actually, Like, if you if this is your first instinct

1104
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 5: for how you treat a living creature, like.

1105
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,439
Speaker 4: I bet he's not good to women either.

1106
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, this doesn't seem like a person who people

1107
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 3: should feel safe around.

1108
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:33,919
Speaker 4: Oh it was a young female wolf too.

1109
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 14: Yeah.

1110
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,240
Speaker 3: Oh no, what have you found?

1111
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 6: Sorry?

1112
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 4: I just was I found a picture of her.

1113
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, it's really sad. The whole thing is really sad.

1114
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,720
Speaker 3: Like to injure this animal right to the to the

1115
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 3: extent that it can't get away or defend itself, and

1116
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 3: then tape up its mouth and then drag it to

1117
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 3: a place where it's going to be in fear for

1118
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 3: the rest of its life before you kill it. It's

1119
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 3: it's unconscionable. It's horrific. I'm not saying that that will

1120
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,399
Speaker 3: happen to bears, but I'm saying that.

1121
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 4: Like a bear would be a lot harder to do

1122
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 4: that too.

1123
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, I would be, you know, I think I think

1124
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 5: as his punishment, this guy should try to do this

1125
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 5: to a bear.

1126
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 3: What I am saying is that even if we like

1127
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 3: go ahead and dealist bears without serious controls, if we

1128
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 3: start to manage them just as like vermin, right, like

1129
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 3: as a pest like this opens up all kinds of avenues,

1130
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 3: and I think.

1131
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 4: A lot of people will find themselves in a situation

1132
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:32,720
Speaker 4: that is beyond their grasp.

1133
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, right, Like if if suddenly you are if you're

1134
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 5: a guy who's like, yeah, i'd love to shoot a bear,

1135
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 5: now you're allowed to.

1136
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 4: I think people are going to find themselves in situations

1137
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 4: they didn't anticipate.

1138
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know in Alaska, for instance, if you want

1139
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 3: to hunt a brown bear and you're not a NASCAR resident,

1140
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 3: you have to go with a guide. That's probably a

1141
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 3: good thing.

1142
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,280
Speaker 5: Right, Like I think if we start killing the bears back,

1143
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 5: more people will get killed, but bears, a lot of

1144
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 5: these guys are gonna die.

1145
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the bad deaths will go up, without

1146
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 3: a doubt. Yeah yeah, Ready, your your best chance of

1147
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 3: getting into an encounter with a bear is probably hunting, right, Like,

1148
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 3: if you're not not hunting bears necessarily, but let's say

1149
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 3: you're Yeah, because you're moving around the woods quietly, you

1150
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 3: could start the one.

1151
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 4: Right, So that's already against the advice for not encountering.

1152
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 3: And then if you then you're able to shoot something,

1153
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 3: and then you Let's say you're in your backcountry hunting, right,

1154
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 3: you have to backpack them.

1155
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:28,919
Speaker 4: Now you have met me out.

1156
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 3: Yeah so, but then now you're coming back to the

1157
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 3: carcass for your second load of meat. A bear may

1158
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 3: have found that carcass.

1159
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 4: Right, somebody might already be there.

1160
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 3: He might not want to give that up. It's his now,

1161
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 3: Yeah that you Yeah, you're then find yourself in a

1162
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 3: difficult situation. Talking with difficult situations, Molly, I have to

1163
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 3: pivot to advertisements again. Yeah, hopefully this one's not for

1164
00:49:50,600 --> 00:50:06,240
Speaker 3: a wolf tape. We are back. Let's talk Molly about

1165
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 3: safety in bear country, grisly country, specifically right after this

1166
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 3: this tragedy where this hiker died in Glassian National Park.

1167
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 3: I have seen a number of articles claiming that bear

1168
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 3: spray is quote a placebo or that you quote shouldn't

1169
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 3: bet your life on it.

1170
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 4: Well, I think if you think it's a placebo, you

1171
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 4: should taste it.

1172
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's It shows a fundamental misunderstanding ifs not only

1173
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,359
Speaker 3: how bear spray works, but also what a placebo is. Right,

1174
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 3: Like you three of the words in your title, all

1175
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 3: of the nouns you don't understand.

1176
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 4: The bear doesn't know what it is.

1177
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 8: The placebo effect will not work.

1178
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 3: On bear Yeah right, yeah, exactly, get right. Yeah, well,

1179
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 3: the Placibo effect actually does work on bears. You can

1180
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 3: spray things that are not bear spray and they still.

1181
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 4: Don't like the bear spray before.

1182
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just the I guess maybe the Perceibo effect. Yeah,

1183
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,879
Speaker 3: it's a noise. It's the cloud, like I guess it's

1184
00:50:59,920 --> 00:51:00,760
Speaker 3: not really a place.

1185
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 4: Bewildering because it's it's startling.

1186
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, but you're not saying it's actually.

1187
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 5: The bear will not have sort of imaginary symptoms of

1188
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 5: bear spray exposure due to their beliefs.

1189
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that they have been bear spray. I should

1190
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 3: note that most of the articles are written by the

1191
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 3: same person.

1192
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:22,839
Speaker 4: So what's his motivation here?

1193
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:25,280
Speaker 5: Why is it he's like, does he own a company

1194
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 5: that sells something that like rivals big bear spray.

1195
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,280
Speaker 3: No, it's a person who's got a guy called west

1196
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 3: Saila who used to write for Outside magazine and no

1197
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 3: longer does. There's a escalating trend in the severity of

1198
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 3: his claims about the lack of efficacy of bear spray

1199
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 3: that correlates with him making income that is directly related

1200
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,720
Speaker 3: to the number of views on the articles making those claims.

1201
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 4: That is really destroying the information landscape.

1202
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think also people not knowing what

1203
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:54,760
Speaker 3: the fuck they're talking about and being given a platform

1204
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,319
Speaker 3: is also destroying the information landscape. Right, but they both

1205
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 3: of those are in play here.

1206
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 5: Really see the sort of escalating way people write because

1207
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,720
Speaker 5: their income is dependent on clickbase.

1208
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah that the clicks to cash pipeline

1209
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 3: is not helping us.

1210
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 5: I make the same amount of money even if none

1211
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 5: of you listen to my podcast.

1212
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, you guys, you could all turn this off right now,

1213
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 3: I'd still be poor. This is not true, right, I

1214
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 3: take really strong offense at this. I don't know the

1215
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 3: qudit wait to say this is bullshit? Right?

1216
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 5: Like if Bear Spain never worked and couldn't work, he

1217
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,359
Speaker 5: wouldn't be the only one saying it correct. There be

1218
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 5: there will be scores of people saying I tried this

1219
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 5: and nothing happened.

1220
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 11: Yeah.

1221
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 3: Also, like we have data on this, right. This is

1222
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 3: not a thing that we need to pull out of

1223
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 3: our ass. This is not a thing that we need

1224
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 3: to rely on individual anecdotes for. This is not a

1225
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 3: thing that will be determined by the outcome of a

1226
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 3: single incident in Glacier National Park.

1227
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 2: This is a thing that we have masses of data on.

1228
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 8: There's bear scientists.

1229
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:56,800
Speaker 3: I spoke to one, Molly.

1230
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 8: I can't wait to hear that.

1231
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:02,360
Speaker 3: I had a very lovely conversation. He has the two studies,

1232
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:04,839
Speaker 3: and to be clear, where sit sees and I don't

1233
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 3: know if it's just that he didn't read them, or

1234
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,799
Speaker 3: he didn't read them well, or that he read them

1235
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 3: to the best of his ability. And this is what

1236
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:13,240
Speaker 3: we're getting.

1237
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 4: I mean, scientific literacy is pretty poor.

1238
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:19,720
Speaker 3: Sure, it's always okay not to write an article making

1239
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 3: claims about something that impacts people's safety if you don't

1240
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 3: know what you're talking about. It's always okay to be

1241
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:29,399
Speaker 3: quiet when we're discussing the people's well being. That's fine.

1242
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:30,879
Speaker 4: Adults talk about it.

1243
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 3: Doesn't impact your substack in the same way.

1244
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 4: But oh, it's a substack situation.

1245
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a subsect situation. I would suggest that writing

1246
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 3: that best bray is dangerous or useless is akin to

1247
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 3: saying that seat belts are dangerous or useless, and that

1248
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,320
Speaker 3: we can, if we look hard enough, find one person

1249
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:49,719
Speaker 3: who was killed by their seat belt, and no one's

1250
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 3: ever been killed by best braidedge. I have been best

1251
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 3: braid more than once.

1252
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 5: Didn't kill me when when we were talking about this earlier,

1253
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 5: this most shocking fact of all to me so far.

1254
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 4: Bear spray is less potent than police pepper spray.

1255
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 3: I believe there's less OC and bear spray.

1256
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 5: I would have assumed it's more, but it's less. Yeah,

1257
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 5: I think the such sensitive nose.

1258
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 3: Very sensitive nose is to be clear, it's still very

1259
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 3: unpleasant for humans like I consider myself to have a

1260
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 3: nose of every sensitivity and having been a recipient a

1261
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 3: bear spray, it's highly unpleasant.

1262
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,279
Speaker 5: Right, But I just I thought, you know, I would

1263
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 5: have assumed you said I've been bear sprayed, like, oh,

1264
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 5: that's like way more hardcore.

1265
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the bear spray. Part of

1266
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 3: the reason I think that it has less of the

1267
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 3: OC oil in it is that it has to be

1268
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 3: propelled out at a velocity that allows it to be

1269
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 3: used even if the bear is coming at you and

1270
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 3: the wind is blowing towards you. Right, so the bear

1271
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:50,759
Speaker 3: is coming with the wind, so you're spraying of pay

1272
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 3: and then the spray would be you don't want the

1273
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 3: spray to all be blown back to you. Right, you

1274
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 3: want it to be able to get out, to create

1275
00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 3: that barrier between you and the bear, and it does. Again,

1276
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 3: doctor Smith's studies have shown the best bait does work

1277
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:05,360
Speaker 3: even with an unfavorable wind.

1278
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 6: Right.

1279
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,799
Speaker 3: I will link to both these studies. Everything he's done,

1280
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 3: which I think is really cool because this stuff impacts

1281
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 3: like your safety in Griz country. Everything he's done is

1282
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 3: available publicly for free. Hell yeah, very unusual in the

1283
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 3: in the academic research space, right, But I think it's

1284
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:22,439
Speaker 3: great because it allows you to look at this best

1285
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 3: play as a Perceibo article and then you can go

1286
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 3: find the study. I will link it right here, and

1287
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 3: you can say, huh, sure, seems like this guy can't

1288
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:31,279
Speaker 3: read a study.

1289
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 4: And does he has he read those studies he claims to.

1290
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, he quotes soon, So it's not.

1291
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 8: That he just isn't aware of them.

1292
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 5: He just doesn't believe the expert because of a personal expert.

1293
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 3: I I think he either didn't grasp the table or

1294
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 3: didn't grasp so the So I again, like the person

1295
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 3: who wate these studies is extremely easy to contact, and

1296
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 3: anyone doing reasonable journalism would do so.

1297
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:54,879
Speaker 2: Right.

1298
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:56,880
Speaker 5: So I guess is he saying I read this study

1299
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 5: and it's wrong, Or is he saying I read the

1300
00:55:58,640 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 5: study and it agrees.

1301
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:01,439
Speaker 3: With me, saying I read the study and it says

1302
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 3: best bray doesn't work. It agrees with me?

1303
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 9: Yet?

1304
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 4: Oh no, yeah, yeah, he could have just emailed the

1305
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 4: other Could it just usk?

1306
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 3: Could it just usk?

1307
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1308
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 3: So, like there are incidents in the study which are

1309
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:15,920
Speaker 3: it considered successful and non successful uses. Some of the

1310
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 3: non successful uses are with a black bear, when you

1311
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 3: spray it and it comes back later. That is still

1312
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 3: the brown bo is not killing you in that situation, right,

1313
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, a black bear.

1314
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 5: It still works. Like efficacy doesn't mean permanent.

1315
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, And at some point when you're making a study

1316
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 3: like this, you have to decide, like what a You're

1317
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 3: trying to create a binary relationship about his theories of things.

1318
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 3: Right that the other study he wrote was efficacy of

1319
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 3: Firearms for their defense in Alaska. It's worth noting that

1320
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 3: in the Efficacy of Firearms study, more than one hundred

1321
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:49,759
Speaker 3: and twenty bears died out of a data set something

1322
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 3: like two hundred and fifty. None of the best bray

1323
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:56,439
Speaker 3: bears died. Oh that's a lot right, yeaheah, it's a lot.

1324
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:58,840
Speaker 4: And I feel like it's better if everybody survives the encounter.

1325
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's better for all of us if we use

1326
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 3: this extremely well researched tool.

1327
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 5: Right and again, having read zero studies, I read zero studies,

1328
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 5: but I know only one point one person's a year

1329
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 5: are killed by bears. Yeah, so if this never worked

1330
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 5: and couldn't work, more people would have been killed by bears.

1331
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 3: Maybe, Yeah. Yeah, certainly a lot of people who use

1332
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 3: the best Bray didn't get killed by bears, right.

1333
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 4: Like, none of them did.

1334
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 3: It is possible to use best brain and be killed

1335
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 3: by bears, like.

1336
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 5: Especially happened to It's happened to maybe fifty people reside.

1337
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 3: Yet residues of bear spray will attract bears in the like,

1338
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 3: well that's unfair. Well it's an interesting smell, right, and

1339
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 3: they have an amazing nose, so I'm guessing like they

1340
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 3: will come check it out. And I know that, Like,

1341
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 3: there are instances where people have, for instance, used best

1342
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:52,440
Speaker 3: Pray in the way that one might use bug spray.

1343
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 3: I use spraying their tent.

1344
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 6: That's not going to work.

1345
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:56,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well you're going to bring them in.

1346
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 5: That's like saying, I'm going to use this gun to

1347
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 5: protect myself by making a circle around me with bullets.

1348
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, exactly, smearing myself with.

1349
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 4: It, but the bullets in a circle around my Yeah.

1350
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 3: It's not quite cargo cult thinking, but like it's a

1351
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 3: you know, it's like magical thought process. I guess, like

1352
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 3: that's not how best pay was you spray it at the.

1353
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 5: Bear homeopathic gun is where you just lick the bullets.

1354
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1355
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1356
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 3: Let's talk about the things that you can do, right,

1357
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 3: Like you can keep a clean camp. This is really big,

1358
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 3: don't attract them? Yeah, so if we look at like Yosemite, right,

1359
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:32,680
Speaker 3: Yosemite and that that like Smite Kings Canyon Sequoia Park System,

1360
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 3: you can't bring bear spray in there, right, Oh, but

1361
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 3: you have to have a bear can. So I've backpacked

1362
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 3: in that area. They have done surveys that showed that,

1363
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:45,520
Speaker 3: like most people were acquainted with best bear practices, but

1364
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 3: we're not following them on the trail.

1365
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 4: So it's not that they didn't know better.

1366
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:49,200
Speaker 6: Is the don't care?

1367
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 3: I think people it's hard to like fathom a giant,

1368
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 3: several hundred pound half ton creature. It's going to come

1369
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 3: in and steal my cliff bars, right, but it will

1370
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 3: And that gets hard to fathom how good their smell.

1371
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 5: Is because they love a delicious snack. Like they're berry boys.

1372
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 5: They're berry boys. They're going to come get your little tree.

1373
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:12,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, they love they love a high carbohydrate like energy snack.

1374
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 3: They're endurance athletes. They want to eat your cliff bar,

1375
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 3: if your keito, you're fine.

1376
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 8: But they would like candy.

1377
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 3: But they love candy. Yeah, Like I know it would.

1378
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 8: Be unethical to give a bear.

1379
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 3: Wrong, So we want to keep a clean camp or

1380
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 3: in bad country. Right, that means stuff with odors. It's

1381
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 3: not just our food, but also like the maybe the

1382
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 3: clothes we cooked in. We have a scented toothpaste stuff

1383
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:35,919
Speaker 3: like that.

1384
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 8: Wow.

1385
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, like if I had, if I was in the

1386
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 3: habit of using a shampoo smelled like I think they

1387
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 3: spoke to doctor Smith about this, like he said, if

1388
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,439
Speaker 3: I used apricot shampoo, probably wouldn't bring.

1389
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:46,640
Speaker 12: It with me.

1390
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 5: Wow, because they just want to come check out that

1391
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 5: sweet tree.

1392
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:49,959
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1393
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:52,720
Speaker 3: Like it's kind of you think that they eat berries, right,

1394
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 3: you make yourself smell like a fruit, Like it's kind

1395
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 3: of on you, Like I get Yeah, it makes sense.

1396
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:58,920
Speaker 4: Like Winnie the Pooh, he's just like following his nose

1397
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 4: you find a sweet tree.

1398
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1399
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 3: I don't want to blame anyone for not knowing things.

1400
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 3: None of us are born knowing anything. And it's not

1401
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 3: like they issue PSAs about bears every day.

1402
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 4: I bet there's a pamphlet at the trailhead.

1403
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:11,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's definitely.

1404
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 3: Well, when you go to Yosemite, you have to sign

1405
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 3: him with a ranger for a wilderness permit and then

1406
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 3: they'll give you the once over. But there are other

1407
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 3: things we would not do.

1408
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 10: Right.

1409
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 3: I would not sleep alone in a tent in bear country, said,

1410
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 3: and there are two of us, had probably two tents, right, Like,

1411
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 3: just gives one of us a chance to deploy the

1412
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 3: bear spray and the bear does come in. We can

1413
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 3: get bear fences, we can try very hard not to

1414
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 3: surprise bears. Right. So I was trail running in Alaska

1415
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 3: last year in some pretty thick brush, Right, I used

1416
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 3: a little bear bell. It's dorky, but like.

1417
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:47,600
Speaker 4: Oh, it sounds cute as hell.

1418
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 6: I want to look at that.

1419
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:52,640
Speaker 3: Well, there's an unfortunate video that you'll probably see when

1420
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 3: you google bear bell of a hiker who thought the

1421
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 3: bell bell with a repellent, and so the black bear

1422
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:00,600
Speaker 3: is charging him and he's waving, just.

1423
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 8: Ring the bell at it all.

1424
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:04,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So it sounds like people.

1425
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 5: Are purchasing these solutions but not understanding the functions of them.

1426
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, And like, I don't want to blame people for that,

1427
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:14,080
Speaker 3: because part of the way we get to a place

1428
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 3: where we could destroy so much of our megafauna, is

1429
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 3: it so a few people care about or understand it, Right,

1430
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 3: that's an education issue that we can't solve quickly or

1431
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 3: like on a podcast. I think that it would behoove

1432
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 3: anyone who's going camping in especially like Griz country, right,

1433
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 3: so in Alaska, Wyoming, not all of Wyoming, Montana, Idaho.

1434
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:35,360
Speaker 3: And like I've camped in those places. I've come to

1435
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 3: all of those places to learn about these things, right,

1436
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 3: because it's not just a negative instant for you, Like,

1437
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 3: it's also a negative incident for the bear. Even if

1438
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:45,920
Speaker 3: you have to bear spray a bear, right, that fucking

1439
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 3: sucks for the bear.

1440
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 5: I mean I've been I've been pepper sprayed, and the

1441
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:51,240
Speaker 5: bear can't even go like wash his hair with dawn.

1442
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, he can't stand in the shower like looking

1443
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 3: down like I know this this. I guess the positive

1444
01:01:57,080 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 3: outcome of that is that the bear will be like

1445
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:02,240
Speaker 3: likely to not want to come around people so much, right,

1446
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 3: because they'll associate this negative attraction with the best bray.

1447
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 5: Right, So this seems like it's that it does work.

1448
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 5: And then also if we're all doing it, you'll you

1449
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 5: want to do it as much. Yeah, because the bears

1450
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 5: will leave us alone.

1451
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, we have the solution for being in bear country, right, Like,

1452
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 3: it's carry our bear repellent.

1453
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 4: Unless the bears are like me.

1454
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 5: You know, I've been parpigedprayed by all kinds of cops

1455
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 5: and I'm still going to go look and see whether I'm.

1456
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:24,920
Speaker 3: Just keep on keep on tanking. Yeah, I'm not a

1457
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:28,920
Speaker 3: very stupid man. It's like the uh, the Yosemite. I

1458
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 3: guess it just keeps spraying me.

1459
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 2: These people.

1460
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 3: Why this. There were some instance where I guess brown

1461
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:37,720
Speaker 3: bears got sprayed to charge the person, but like as

1462
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:40,320
Speaker 3: they were charging, the person sprayed them and they came

1463
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 3: through the spray. But then there's a spray got more condensed,

1464
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 3: like I know they're not the person over and kept

1465
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 3: on charging. Okay, I don't want, Yeah, which is obviously

1466
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 3: not a great outcome, but it's a better outcome than

1467
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 3: you're getting warreed by the bear, right.

1468
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 8: Better than it eat my bear.

1469
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:58,640
Speaker 3: But like, I really want to push back on this

1470
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 3: narrative that we should be all carrying firearms.

1471
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:03,120
Speaker 4: First of all, most people, most people don't need a gun.

1472
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:06,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, like, there are reasons to warn guns ion,

1473
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:11,440
Speaker 3: lots of them, but like, defending yourself from bears probably

1474
01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:15,200
Speaker 3: isn't one unless you're already very proficient with firearms, and

1475
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:15,880
Speaker 3: even then.

1476
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:18,120
Speaker 2: I don't want to kill a bear.

1477
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:21,200
Speaker 5: Like, but I just to think if you're telling every

1478
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 5: casual hiker who goes to where bears might be that

1479
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 5: they need to own a gun, a lot of those

1480
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 5: people would not have otherwise owned a gun. Yeah, are

1481
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 5: not good at handling a gun. In a situation where

1482
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:32,320
Speaker 5: they need to use the gun against the bear, it's

1483
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 5: going to go badly. But also, now there's a gun

1484
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:36,880
Speaker 5: in their home that they would not otherwise have had

1485
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:40,160
Speaker 5: in their home, and the odds of a firearm accident

1486
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 5: in the home are now higher.

1487
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, well yeah, infinitely high than it didn't have one.

1488
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:46,120
Speaker 5: Right, So it's not going to work out for you.

1489
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 5: In this limited instance that you think you need it for.

1490
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then you've introduced to dangerous.

1491
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:52,240
Speaker 2: Now you have a gun you didn't need.

1492
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:55,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, it is impossible. May if you are getting

1493
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 3: If I am getting more by a grizzly bear and

1494
01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:00,320
Speaker 3: you bearst pray that bear, I will have I see

1495
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:03,520
Speaker 3: eyes and hopefully survive. If you shoot that bear, it

1496
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 3: is very possible, and it has happened that you will

1497
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 3: also shoot me.

1498
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 5: Because the average person not a good shot under controlled circumstances.

1499
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 5: Bear attack not a controlled circumstance.

1500
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, like everyone like this is especially a thing with men, right,

1501
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:20,880
Speaker 3: they will tend to overestimate their ability with firearms dramatically.

1502
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 3: In my experience, this is not a fuck around and

1503
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 3: find out situation. You don't want to find out that

1504
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 3: you're not very good at shooting as a grisly bear

1505
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 3: is charging you.

1506
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:31,200
Speaker 5: And even if you are very good at shooting at

1507
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 5: the range, you're not in this situation.

1508
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:33,720
Speaker 8: You're not.

1509
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 3: You have to deploy the firearm right now, and we

1510
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 3: have to.

1511
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:39,000
Speaker 5: Like, your hands are shaking, there's piss running down your life.

1512
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:42,640
Speaker 3: We're scared. Yeah, you have to incapacitate the bear, like

1513
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:46,920
Speaker 3: I've been in up close situations with big animals. It's scary,

1514
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 3: like thinking I'm going to die now. It has a

1515
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:54,080
Speaker 3: profound effect on the human body, and it's not one

1516
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 3: that does and it does it doesn't actually enhance your

1517
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:59,640
Speaker 3: john Wick characteristics. Yeah, so I would highly recommend it.

1518
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:02,680
Speaker 3: If you're going to bear country, you get some bear spray,

1519
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 3: don't fly, but you can't fly with bare spray, So

1520
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:07,600
Speaker 3: you're gonna have to buy it when you get buy

1521
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 3: it when you get there. This is not like big

1522
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:12,360
Speaker 3: bear spray. This is also an accusation that like big

1523
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 3: bear spray sort of funded these studies or that this

1524
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:18,800
Speaker 3: is silly, right, the death spray industry is not that

1525
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:19,520
Speaker 3: big guys.

1526
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:20,440
Speaker 2: It works.

1527
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:23,760
Speaker 3: It is statistically more effective than using firearms.

1528
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:24,160
Speaker 6: It works.

1529
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:25,600
Speaker 8: What does it cost like forty bucks?

1530
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:26,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, not even that.

1531
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:28,520
Speaker 4: And how much does a gun cost? A lot more

1532
01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:29,480
Speaker 4: than that, Yeah.

1533
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:30,520
Speaker 3: A lot more than that, especially if you're going to

1534
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 3: actually practice with it. Right, if you're going to get

1535
01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:33,880
Speaker 3: bear spray, I would sugest you get a You can

1536
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:37,440
Speaker 3: get a dummy. It's just got water in it and

1537
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 3: you can practice. Right. There are a couple of safeties

1538
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:42,720
Speaker 3: on a bear spray. One I do have one here.

1539
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:44,560
Speaker 4: With like within arms reach in your arms.

1540
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:45,880
Speaker 3: You want to go one over here? Yeah, I got

1541
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:50,920
Speaker 3: my RACKUS best bray, but like it's a safety on

1542
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:52,800
Speaker 3: it and there's actually a zip tie when you get

1543
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 3: it to stop the safety coming off, just to stop

1544
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:56,200
Speaker 3: it like blog in your back going off in the

1545
01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 3: shipping container, yeah, or in the in the walmart or whatever.

1546
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 3: So you've got to whatever of that, right, And then

1547
01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 3: they they sell packs which has the water one and

1548
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 3: the spicy one, and you're going to practice deploying the

1549
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:12,600
Speaker 3: water one, right, and like that's smart. Yeah, when you're

1550
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:15,640
Speaker 3: carrying your bear spray, if it's in the bottom of

1551
01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:18,840
Speaker 3: your backpack, oh, the bear doesn't give you that much

1552
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:22,120
Speaker 3: advanced notice. Yeah. So the bear spray is like when

1553
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 3: I was when I'm running in places where there were

1554
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 3: grizzly bears, I wear a little running vest. Put it

1555
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 3: in the front here. If I have binoculars and I

1556
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:31,720
Speaker 3: have a little binocular pack, I put it on the

1557
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:34,520
Speaker 3: side there. I've done it on my belt before.

1558
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:39,600
Speaker 5: Googled bear spray and the pictures, the pictures that are

1559
01:06:39,680 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 5: used to advertise the spray.

1560
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:45,880
Speaker 3: I gotta see this. What's yeah, how do I send

1561
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 3: you sen you can just put it in the chat.

1562
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:50,880
Speaker 4: This is not a real picture.

1563
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:52,400
Speaker 8: Is this a real picture of a man spraying of bear?

1564
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 5: Because the bear is sort of enveloped in this cloud

1565
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:57,280
Speaker 5: of spray, So it just looks like one of those

1566
01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:00,840
Speaker 5: soft effect paintings of the bears still wet in like

1567
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:01,480
Speaker 5: a cloud.

1568
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:03,960
Speaker 3: It looks like it looks like like a I'm a

1569
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:06,320
Speaker 3: big fan of T shirts of wolves howling at the moon.

1570
01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 8: It's a bear, old man's brain.

1571
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:14,680
Speaker 2: I don't know why if you're staging it. This is

1572
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 2: bizarre because.

1573
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:17,200
Speaker 4: That's not a real picture of something of that happened.

1574
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:17,800
Speaker 6: I don't know.

1575
01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:20,040
Speaker 3: I don't think so, because there's no bare body and

1576
01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:22,360
Speaker 3: you can see this. You can see the bush right

1577
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:24,640
Speaker 3: like it's just its head. They haven't bothered.

1578
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 8: It's very close.

1579
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:28,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, so yeah, and the bear doesn't look too upset.

1580
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:31,840
Speaker 3: It's kind of Yeah. That is a fascinating case. If

1581
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:34,400
Speaker 3: we scroll down, there are there are better images of

1582
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:36,080
Speaker 3: people using bear spray, which.

1583
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 4: Is incredible, incredible product photos that.

1584
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:43,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is really quite remarkable. Suggest everybody who is

1585
01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:47,560
Speaker 3: going into bear country buy bear spray and practice using

1586
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:51,480
Speaker 3: it like it's better for you. It's better for bears.

1587
01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 3: It's cheaper than a gun. You can if you want,

1588
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:58,000
Speaker 3: by a bear fence, the electric fence that goes around

1589
01:07:58,120 --> 01:08:00,200
Speaker 3: your camp if camping in the back country, I think

1590
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:01,960
Speaker 3: that's a good idea. If you're in an area with

1591
01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 3: lots of bears, they way very little. Now I'm by

1592
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:08,160
Speaker 3: myself when actually after talking to doctor Smith, well I

1593
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:10,040
Speaker 3: won't because I haven't got enough money, but i'd like

1594
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:13,200
Speaker 3: to maybe I'll hear from the bear fence people. You

1595
01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:16,120
Speaker 3: can follow all the best practices, right, and you're not

1596
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:18,200
Speaker 3: just going to learn them from a podcast. You're going

1597
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:20,680
Speaker 3: to look up the parks system. You're going to look

1598
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:21,799
Speaker 3: at doctor Smith's research.

1599
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:25,479
Speaker 4: Ask a park ranger. He'll tell you that's his job.

1600
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:28,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, some of their jobs depends what depends what kind

1601
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:30,800
Speaker 3: of rangers they are. Some of them are cops. The

1602
01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:35,680
Speaker 3: overwhelming bulk of evidence suggests that the way to go

1603
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:44,920
Speaker 3: with bears is bear spray until a bear kills an

1604
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 3: oil rig. We will have we will continue to have

1605
01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:51,800
Speaker 3: bears on our landscape, but it's something that we should like,

1606
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:55,479
Speaker 3: genuinely care about, really, like the trophic cascade is not

1607
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:58,080
Speaker 3: as much of a of a thing as it was

1608
01:08:58,120 --> 01:09:00,599
Speaker 3: once made out to be that. I'm sure you've seen

1609
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:02,200
Speaker 3: that thing about how wolf change rivers.

1610
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:05,120
Speaker 4: No, you have to tell me about wolves too.

1611
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:08,760
Speaker 3: A whole other episode. Yeah, well, fucking wolf management is

1612
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:12,120
Speaker 3: a whole other thing. The bears have entered the discourse

1613
01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:16,200
Speaker 3: this week because a bear killed someone. We don't talk

1614
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 3: about it when someone kills a bear, right the go

1615
01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:20,559
Speaker 3: ask it. They're coming bears from aircraft right now. And

1616
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:22,400
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that, like a human life is equal

1617
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:24,240
Speaker 3: to a bear life, but I'm saying that.

1618
01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:27,360
Speaker 4: Hunting from an aircraft is such bitch behavior.

1619
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:29,680
Speaker 3: I know, if you want to take a bear, do

1620
01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:32,560
Speaker 3: it with a knife like a like a hero or

1621
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:33,160
Speaker 3: a bow.

1622
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:35,360
Speaker 4: But or you know, do it Lewis and Clark style,

1623
01:09:35,439 --> 01:09:36,040
Speaker 4: use a musket.

1624
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:36,559
Speaker 6: That's fine.

1625
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, right, eight of your friends and a musket

1626
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:40,880
Speaker 3: at the edge of the river and you don't have

1627
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:43,080
Speaker 3: best brace. You're only optionists to jump into the room

1628
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:46,880
Speaker 3: twenty feet clip with a bear that you could have

1629
01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:50,439
Speaker 3: left alone. So yeah, I want to. I guess like

1630
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:53,759
Speaker 3: end by saying that, like the outdoors isn't entirely safe,

1631
01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:56,880
Speaker 3: and that's part of what makes it beautiful. There have

1632
01:09:56,960 --> 01:09:59,280
Speaker 3: been times when I have been in the wilderness where

1633
01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:03,120
Speaker 3: I've thought going to die, and I keep going back

1634
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:05,479
Speaker 3: to the wilderness because like it's also one of the

1635
01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:07,439
Speaker 3: things that makes me feel so grateful to be alive.

1636
01:10:08,280 --> 01:10:12,120
Speaker 3: And it's okay if it isn't entirely safe. We know

1637
01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:14,360
Speaker 3: that when we enter the wilderness, and we do our

1638
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:19,160
Speaker 3: best to mitigate that risk, right, We plan, we take

1639
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:21,280
Speaker 3: safety precautions, we bring our first aid kit in our

1640
01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:22,800
Speaker 3: best brain, and we tell someone where we're going and

1641
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 3: when we're coming back, and we do all this stuff,

1642
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:27,840
Speaker 3: but we understand that there is some inherent risk and

1643
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:30,840
Speaker 3: that's all right. Like if we wanted to see wildlife

1644
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 3: and have no inherent risk and have it be comfortable,

1645
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:36,200
Speaker 3: we would just go to the zoo, right, And the

1646
01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:39,639
Speaker 3: zoo sucks compared to the outdoors, right, Like I don't

1647
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:42,280
Speaker 3: want to see a bear in a cage. It's undignified

1648
01:10:42,280 --> 01:10:42,760
Speaker 3: for the bear.

1649
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:44,439
Speaker 4: It's so sad for them in there.

1650
01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:47,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like it's the meaning to me to see something

1651
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:51,800
Speaker 3: demean for my entertainment in that fashion. Like we can't

1652
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:54,200
Speaker 3: comprehend animals outside of the habitat. I don't think like

1653
01:10:55,160 --> 01:10:58,519
Speaker 3: seeing a grisbee bear in Alaska of trying to eat

1654
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:02,720
Speaker 3: salmon or being a black bear in California doing its

1655
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:05,600
Speaker 3: thing hamingson berries. Like that's cool, and I want you

1656
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:07,360
Speaker 3: all to have that, and I want your children and

1657
01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:10,599
Speaker 3: grandchildren to have that, and so, like, I think we

1658
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:15,280
Speaker 3: should be very skeptical about people making safety based arguments

1659
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:21,360
Speaker 3: for destroying our our megafauna here like that. You'll hear

1660
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:23,400
Speaker 3: it with wolves, right, You're hearing people doing it with cougars,

1661
01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:25,000
Speaker 3: which is absolutely ridiculous.

1662
01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:26,920
Speaker 4: Like most of these animals will not bother you if

1663
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:27,960
Speaker 4: you leave them alone.

1664
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:31,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like if very very ocasionally people have been

1665
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:34,439
Speaker 3: killed by cougars who are not bothering the cougar, right, like.

1666
01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:38,479
Speaker 5: Very occasionally, you know, a freak accident, Yeah, doesn't justify

1667
01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:40,000
Speaker 5: destruction of an ecosystem.

1668
01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 3: People get killed by lightning, but we're not just killing clouds.

1669
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:45,680
Speaker 3: People get killed by cars. We don't get bombing the

1670
01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:49,800
Speaker 3: Ford factory. I understand the desire to be safe, but like,

1671
01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:51,160
Speaker 3: we will take away a lot of things that are

1672
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:52,960
Speaker 3: really beautiful if we just want to be safe.

1673
01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:55,040
Speaker 8: But again, we're controlling the wrong variables.

1674
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:58,479
Speaker 5: If you're worried about people dying in unfair and you know,

1675
01:11:58,920 --> 01:11:59,920
Speaker 5: terrible accidents.

1676
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:01,639
Speaker 4: There are things we could talk about.

1677
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:03,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, there are policy decisions that could be made that

1678
01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:05,519
Speaker 5: would save thousands and thousands of lives.

1679
01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:07,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you want people to be safe and be

1680
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:09,840
Speaker 3: concerned about free healthcare.

1681
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:12,839
Speaker 4: Bears have killed sixty six people.

1682
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:15,559
Speaker 5: I bet that many people died today from not being

1683
01:12:15,560 --> 01:12:16,639
Speaker 5: able to get their insulin.

1684
01:12:16,960 --> 01:12:19,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, there's a perfect example. Right, Like,

1685
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:23,160
Speaker 3: if you want to keep people safe, then think about

1686
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:25,160
Speaker 3: things that will keep them safe. And I think we can.

1687
01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:28,840
Speaker 3: We can very easily keep people bears safe. But the

1688
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:31,120
Speaker 3: threat to the bears is us. That's it. The only

1689
01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:34,400
Speaker 3: other thing that kills bears really is other bears, and

1690
01:12:34,479 --> 01:12:38,479
Speaker 3: so it's on us therefore to advocate, right, Like the

1691
01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:41,000
Speaker 3: bears can't advocate for themselves. Luckily they had people who

1692
01:12:41,080 --> 01:12:44,240
Speaker 3: brought that court case in twenty nineteen. But like, if

1693
01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:47,840
Speaker 3: we want to continue to enjoy the outdoors in the

1694
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:50,400
Speaker 3: way that they are, we need to stop randomly removing shit.

1695
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:54,839
Speaker 3: And bears are one of those things, especially brown bears,

1696
01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:57,439
Speaker 3: that it's very easy to whip up fear about that.

1697
01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:00,479
Speaker 3: I think we should just leave them alone. I think

1698
01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:02,960
Speaker 3: we should be weary also of sort of anthropomorphizing them.

1699
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:05,200
Speaker 3: Like I see this sometimes with people and animals, like

1700
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:08,400
Speaker 3: they don't need this for entertainment. They don't see the

1701
01:13:08,439 --> 01:13:10,360
Speaker 3: world in the way we do. And that's okay that

1702
01:13:10,360 --> 01:13:14,439
Speaker 3: they're animals. They have their own logic. We coexist with them.

1703
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:17,559
Speaker 3: But like not that. It's not like a Disney animal.

1704
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:20,240
Speaker 3: It's an animal which goes about the world using its

1705
01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:22,800
Speaker 3: own logic, using its own understanding, and trying to pursue

1706
01:13:22,840 --> 01:13:24,240
Speaker 3: its own ends for its own means.

1707
01:13:24,320 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 13: Right.

1708
01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:27,720
Speaker 3: But nonetheless, it is a majestic thing to see on

1709
01:13:27,760 --> 01:13:31,040
Speaker 3: the landscape and something that we should take care that.

1710
01:13:31,280 --> 01:13:35,120
Speaker 3: You know, we don't let corporate interest and people who

1711
01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:36,799
Speaker 3: find it entertaining distory.

1712
01:13:37,360 --> 01:13:38,439
Speaker 8: I would love to see a bear.

1713
01:13:38,720 --> 01:13:40,679
Speaker 3: Okay, we'll do that. We'll add that to our list. Okay,

1714
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:43,280
Speaker 3: tep me to see a bear. Yeah, I am going

1715
01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:45,320
Speaker 3: to take Molly camping. We will. Maybe we'll go to

1716
01:13:45,760 --> 01:13:49,040
Speaker 3: We'll go to we go Yellowstone area, like I've never

1717
01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:51,080
Speaker 3: been to Yell, you know, have you not been to Yellowstone?

1718
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:52,080
Speaker 4: I've never been out worse.

1719
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:55,120
Speaker 3: Wow, Okay, I've got some friends who got a cabin

1720
01:13:55,200 --> 01:13:58,280
Speaker 3: outside the park. Maybe we could have a little cabin trip.

1721
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:00,839
Speaker 4: Sophie's and mid Yellowstone.

1722
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:03,599
Speaker 3: We can go in there and like, look at the guys,

1723
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:08,639
Speaker 3: enjoy the Yellowstone ecosystem. No disrespect to my Yellowstone friends,

1724
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:11,639
Speaker 3: but that's a lot of tourists. Like I ain't going

1725
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:13,240
Speaker 3: outside to be around that many people.

1726
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:17,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, like there's there's Yellowstone style nature outside the bounds

1727
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:18,360
Speaker 5: of the park.

1728
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:19,200
Speaker 8: You go there.

1729
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:20,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean even if you just go, if you're

1730
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:22,720
Speaker 3: getting away from you can get it. Just get away

1731
01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:25,080
Speaker 3: from Old Faithful and that that park and you can

1732
01:14:25,080 --> 01:14:27,320
Speaker 3: get away from people. Just fine. But yeah, we can go.

1733
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:29,160
Speaker 3: We could go to Yellowstone, see it there. Maybe see

1734
01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:30,679
Speaker 3: an elk. Pretty cool, Elk.

1735
01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:32,360
Speaker 4: Make a pretty co I bet that's big as hell.

1736
01:14:32,439 --> 01:14:35,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, elk's the biggest ship. Like like a cow with horns.

1737
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:39,120
Speaker 3: Well not the cows, cats have horns. Elk antlers a mistake.

1738
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:43,479
Speaker 3: But yeah, we could go to or like that, like

1739
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:45,640
Speaker 3: the Greater Yeat like outside of the park, like that

1740
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:48,840
Speaker 3: Wayoming area just outside of Yellowstone. It's really beautiful. Be

1741
01:14:48,880 --> 01:14:51,040
Speaker 3: a fun place to go camping. Maybe see a bear,

1742
01:14:51,400 --> 01:14:53,680
Speaker 3: have a clean camp. Maybe we can find out a

1743
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:55,759
Speaker 3: way to find a way to expense that bear fence.

1744
01:14:55,960 --> 01:14:59,639
Speaker 5: That's what I'm saying. Podcasts from out there it becomes business.

1745
01:14:59,800 --> 01:14:59,960
Speaker 12: Yeah.

1746
01:15:00,120 --> 01:15:03,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, we will podcast from bear country proving that we

1747
01:15:03,160 --> 01:15:04,559
Speaker 3: can happily co exist with bears.

1748
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:06,000
Speaker 2: Thank you to all the ferret people.

1749
01:15:06,240 --> 01:15:09,000
Speaker 4: By the way, I can't believe how many contacted you.

1750
01:15:09,200 --> 01:15:12,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, massive outreach of the ferret people. So if you

1751
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:14,760
Speaker 3: are someone who can help me, get on one of

1752
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:18,400
Speaker 3: the ferret counting surveys. I will count ferrets with you.

1753
01:15:19,040 --> 01:15:21,639
Speaker 3: We will make a ferret podcast, and we will change

1754
01:15:21,680 --> 01:15:24,320
Speaker 3: America's perception of the blackfooted ferret. On your behalf.

1755
01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:25,120
Speaker 8: It's already working.

1756
01:15:25,240 --> 01:15:25,720
Speaker 4: You got me.

1757
01:15:26,120 --> 01:15:26,800
Speaker 6: I love them now.

1758
01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:30,559
Speaker 3: Yeah. Muley's Team Ferret. Yeah. You can't see this because

1759
01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:32,839
Speaker 3: it's a podcast, but she has a massive tattoo.

1760
01:15:34,280 --> 01:15:37,080
Speaker 4: It's one of the biggest around the neck.

1761
01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:39,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, around the neck. Yeah, and there's a further one

1762
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:41,960
Speaker 3: in the lip, but it says team Ferret.

1763
01:15:42,680 --> 01:15:43,280
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1764
01:15:43,360 --> 01:15:46,479
Speaker 3: Yeah. So yeah, Money's become a ferret advocate. I hope

1765
01:15:46,479 --> 01:15:49,800
Speaker 3: you have all become ferret and black bear advocates. Send

1766
01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:51,680
Speaker 3: me pictures of your bears. Money, do you know what

1767
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:53,080
Speaker 3: fat bear week is? Before we go?

1768
01:15:53,360 --> 01:15:56,000
Speaker 4: That is my favorite thing about bears is fat.

1769
01:15:55,800 --> 01:16:00,000
Speaker 3: Bear Okay, sick good yeah, bears getting plump in the

1770
01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:01,320
Speaker 3: the autumn before they hibernate.

1771
01:16:01,439 --> 01:16:03,639
Speaker 5: Is I mean, how could you hate them? How could

1772
01:16:03,680 --> 01:16:06,759
Speaker 5: you hate them? They're just roly poly little guys hunting

1773
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:07,599
Speaker 5: for a little sweet treat.

1774
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:10,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, their bulking cycle is incredible to me, Like the

1775
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:16,240
Speaker 3: way a bear just adds thickness in a relatively short

1776
01:16:16,240 --> 01:16:18,680
Speaker 3: period of time. It's remarking powerful. Yeah, it's powerful. That

1777
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:21,440
Speaker 3: lives the power of salmon. Maybe we didn't have trawlers,

1778
01:16:22,240 --> 01:16:24,599
Speaker 3: we'd all eat more fish. But yeah, check out Fat

1779
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:26,759
Speaker 3: Bear Week if you haven't, if you're not from the US,

1780
01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:30,719
Speaker 3: I hope this has been fun. Fund a little diversion

1781
01:16:30,920 --> 01:16:32,800
Speaker 3: into animals that live here. They used to live all

1782
01:16:32,800 --> 01:16:37,639
Speaker 3: the way down into Mexico actually, but now sadly Mexican bears. Yeah,

1783
01:16:37,640 --> 01:16:39,080
Speaker 3: well there are still Mexican black bears.

1784
01:16:39,200 --> 01:16:42,120
Speaker 4: They have bears too, Yeah, yeah, I got to look

1785
01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:43,080
Speaker 4: up where bears live.

1786
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:46,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, they lived. We could do a whole other one

1787
01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:49,160
Speaker 3: on the jaguar was there being fucked by the border

1788
01:16:49,200 --> 01:16:51,760
Speaker 3: wall right now pretty badly. But there'll be a fun

1789
01:16:51,800 --> 01:16:57,080
Speaker 3: episode up in over an, Arizona that Yeah, there's pretty cool.

1790
01:16:57,120 --> 01:17:13,600
Speaker 15: Animals are friends, don't kill them.

1791
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:16,000
Speaker 12: Welcome to It could happened here a podcast about what

1792
01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:18,719
Speaker 12: workers can do when they try. I am your host,

1793
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:23,320
Speaker 12: Mia Long, and with me today to talk about a

1794
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:26,000
Speaker 12: company known, I guess in Portland for being a place

1795
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:28,479
Speaker 12: for you shop and known most other places for being

1796
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:33,519
Speaker 12: the people who make pens is Morgan and Renee from

1797
01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:36,599
Speaker 12: Bujie Workers United and Morgan Renee welcome to the show.

1798
01:17:36,920 --> 01:17:38,400
Speaker 16: Thank you, Hi, Thank you Mia.

1799
01:17:39,320 --> 01:17:39,639
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1800
01:17:39,680 --> 01:17:42,240
Speaker 12: So, and obviously I guess, as you may have gotten

1801
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:45,080
Speaker 12: from the word union and the title probably continuing the

1802
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:47,240
Speaker 12: word union, I don't know, we haven't written it yet,

1803
01:17:47,960 --> 01:17:51,840
Speaker 12: is that. Yeah, one of the Muji stories in Portland

1804
01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:54,960
Speaker 12: is unionizing. Can you talk a little bit about like

1805
01:17:55,160 --> 01:17:58,479
Speaker 12: what Muji is for people who are unaware of this slash,

1806
01:17:58,520 --> 01:18:02,360
Speaker 12: don't follow pens and or or haven't been to the store.

1807
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:07,080
Speaker 16: Yeah, so Muji is probably I would describe it as

1808
01:18:07,160 --> 01:18:11,680
Speaker 16: a worldwide Japanese minimalist lifestyle department store. And that's a

1809
01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:14,640
Speaker 16: lot of words to say. It's a department store that

1810
01:18:14,800 --> 01:18:19,280
Speaker 16: is for essentially basics. Muji is short for a full

1811
01:18:19,560 --> 01:18:23,800
Speaker 16: name that essentially translates to no brand, and that's the

1812
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:26,400
Speaker 16: idea that they're trying to push for and they're trying

1813
01:18:26,400 --> 01:18:29,080
Speaker 16: to show to people that it's like an eco friendly

1814
01:18:29,120 --> 01:18:33,519
Speaker 16: company and they try and push like high quality products.

1815
01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:37,519
Speaker 16: And at our location in Portland, it's the only one

1816
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:41,320
Speaker 16: on the American West Coast, and we have a relatively

1817
01:18:41,320 --> 01:18:44,840
Speaker 16: small shop. There's only thirty two people in our bargaining unit.

1818
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:47,920
Speaker 16: And this is a wall to wall bargaining unit, which

1819
01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:52,280
Speaker 16: essentially means that everyone below the lowest management level at

1820
01:18:52,280 --> 01:18:55,280
Speaker 16: this location is involved with the union.

1821
01:18:55,880 --> 01:18:59,360
Speaker 12: Yeah, which is a really cool and B So we're

1822
01:18:59,360 --> 01:19:00,840
Speaker 12: talking about how this is the only one in the

1823
01:19:00,880 --> 01:19:04,519
Speaker 12: West coast. This is mostly a Japanese company that operates

1824
01:19:04,560 --> 01:19:06,680
Speaker 12: a little bit in the US and does things here,

1825
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:09,040
Speaker 12: right my understanding, So.

1826
01:19:10,160 --> 01:19:14,080
Speaker 16: It is a Japanese company. It's actually primarily operates like

1827
01:19:14,120 --> 01:19:17,120
Speaker 16: all over the world. It was began in Japan in

1828
01:19:17,160 --> 01:19:20,240
Speaker 16: the eighties, I believe, if I know my company history correctly,

1829
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:24,799
Speaker 16: but they pretty rapidly expanded to across Asia and Europe

1830
01:19:25,400 --> 01:19:29,600
Speaker 16: and then have also since expanded into Africa and the Americas.

1831
01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:33,000
Speaker 16: If the Americas were relatively late. I don't think that

1832
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:35,880
Speaker 16: there was a store in the America's before the turn

1833
01:19:35,920 --> 01:19:39,760
Speaker 16: of the millennium and the portaland location itself opened in

1834
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:43,120
Speaker 16: I want to say twenty eighteen, sometime like just pre COVID.

1835
01:19:43,960 --> 01:19:48,920
Speaker 12: Yeah, so it's relatively recent. And I guess the thing

1836
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:52,760
Speaker 12: that's even more relatively recent is he all starting to

1837
01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:56,280
Speaker 12: organize a union. So can I ask how did that start?

1838
01:19:56,320 --> 01:19:58,360
Speaker 12: And what was the sort of things that started to

1839
01:19:58,360 --> 01:19:59,519
Speaker 12: get the ball rolling on it?

1840
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:02,439
Speaker 16: So I guess the way that organizing started was back

1841
01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:05,439
Speaker 16: in November of twenty twenty five, maybe shortly before that.

1842
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:10,320
Speaker 16: We had a round of appraisals. These are like yearly

1843
01:20:10,439 --> 01:20:13,880
Speaker 16: end of fiscal year appraisals that are technically supposed to

1844
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:15,720
Speaker 16: be the end of the fourth quarter. Typically they get

1845
01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:18,839
Speaker 16: pushed back by a month or two. I just company practice,

1846
01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:22,960
Speaker 16: because the appraisals are tied to our raises, and each

1847
01:20:23,080 --> 01:20:26,080
Speaker 16: employee who's worked for a year or more at the

1848
01:20:26,080 --> 01:20:28,640
Speaker 16: company gets a praise, And so we're scored in a

1849
01:20:28,680 --> 01:20:31,400
Speaker 16: system of one to five, and if you get a

1850
01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:34,439
Speaker 16: three or better, I believe the system goes. You get

1851
01:20:34,479 --> 01:20:37,040
Speaker 16: a raise that is directly tied to the number that

1852
01:20:37,080 --> 01:20:41,640
Speaker 16: you got. They used decimal systems. So the thing is

1853
01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:45,640
Speaker 16: that this year they gave us the lowest raise in

1854
01:20:46,240 --> 01:20:49,200
Speaker 16: a memory of any of the workers that are currently there.

1855
01:20:49,280 --> 01:20:53,040
Speaker 16: Myself included for context. I'm one of the workers that

1856
01:20:53,120 --> 01:20:55,920
Speaker 16: has been at the store of the longest and at

1857
01:20:56,560 --> 01:20:59,680
Speaker 16: four no more than forty years now we have a

1858
01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:01,800
Speaker 16: pretty i turn around, which is how I ended up

1859
01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:04,880
Speaker 16: being the longest tenure of the lower the management workers.

1860
01:21:05,439 --> 01:21:09,120
Speaker 16: And this came in a year that was the best

1861
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:14,120
Speaker 16: year in the Portland Locations history. Yeah, there's this competition

1862
01:21:14,400 --> 01:21:18,479
Speaker 16: that Muchie runs internally where it puts each store under

1863
01:21:18,560 --> 01:21:21,400
Speaker 16: like a group of stores worldwide, almost like almost like

1864
01:21:21,439 --> 01:21:24,280
Speaker 16: World Cup groups in a way, where you're just kind

1865
01:21:24,280 --> 01:21:28,760
Speaker 16: of like randomly sorted into groups. And each year one

1866
01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:32,400
Speaker 16: of the groups is chosen and within that group, they

1867
01:21:32,479 --> 01:21:35,160
Speaker 16: examined the performances of each of the stores within that

1868
01:21:35,240 --> 01:21:37,439
Speaker 16: group and select a winner to be the Store of

1869
01:21:37,479 --> 01:21:40,920
Speaker 16: the year. So in twenty twenty four we won Store

1870
01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:43,519
Speaker 16: of the Year, and it was kind of a shock

1871
01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:45,919
Speaker 16: to a bunch of us to have such low races

1872
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:50,639
Speaker 16: after that. For example, my rays of sixty five cents

1873
01:21:50,840 --> 01:21:56,719
Speaker 16: last summer Jesus Christ was the highest by a significant margin.

1874
01:21:57,880 --> 01:22:01,120
Speaker 17: Yes, it went as low as around twenty five cents.

1875
01:22:01,280 --> 01:22:02,920
Speaker 16: Yeah, that's right, I.

1876
01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:05,919
Speaker 12: Have done the math. But like, is that sub inflation?

1877
01:22:06,240 --> 01:22:08,759
Speaker 2: Like I, yes, that is sub inflation.

1878
01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:12,320
Speaker 17: It tends to be. There are employees who have been

1879
01:22:12,360 --> 01:22:15,920
Speaker 17: working for more than two years who still get paid

1880
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:17,519
Speaker 17: around minimum wage.

1881
01:22:17,720 --> 01:22:18,439
Speaker 12: Jesus Christ.

1882
01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:23,840
Speaker 16: In addition to that, the staff members who are keyholders

1883
01:22:23,840 --> 01:22:27,040
Speaker 16: and full timers and above get bonuses, and the bonuses

1884
01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:30,360
Speaker 16: are directly tied to the amount of money that the

1885
01:22:30,400 --> 01:22:35,160
Speaker 16: store makes over the target amount for the month, and

1886
01:22:35,600 --> 01:22:39,519
Speaker 16: they drastically increased the targets for the year going forward,

1887
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:43,120
Speaker 16: which meant that because of that, our bonuses were getting lower.

1888
01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:47,080
Speaker 16: So this year, for the last month since that race,

1889
01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:50,679
Speaker 16: I've actually been making less money per month than I

1890
01:22:50,720 --> 01:22:51,599
Speaker 16: was the year before.

1891
01:22:52,479 --> 01:22:59,080
Speaker 12: Jesus Christ, So you're getting pay cuts basically, yes, Jesus Christ.

1892
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:03,320
Speaker 12: After winning Store of the Year, incredible stuff. Incredible stuff

1893
01:23:03,360 --> 01:23:07,120
Speaker 12: from the people who are running their company in an

1894
01:23:07,160 --> 01:23:08,240
Speaker 12: extremely normal way.

1895
01:23:09,880 --> 01:23:12,600
Speaker 16: That was the spark that set this push for the

1896
01:23:12,680 --> 01:23:17,040
Speaker 16: union ablaze. And so in November I contacted the IWW

1897
01:23:17,320 --> 01:23:21,040
Speaker 16: Industrial Workers of the World and received a response, And

1898
01:23:21,120 --> 01:23:23,640
Speaker 16: so at first it was just me and one of

1899
01:23:23,680 --> 01:23:26,760
Speaker 16: the IWW representatives that we were meeting together to talk

1900
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:30,280
Speaker 16: about forming a union, and we ended up having those

1901
01:23:30,280 --> 01:23:33,200
Speaker 16: meetings somewhat regularly, and the amount of people attending those

1902
01:23:33,200 --> 01:23:35,800
Speaker 16: meetings slowly started to grow, so it was maybe like

1903
01:23:36,080 --> 01:23:38,960
Speaker 16: two people, three people here and there. And then we

1904
01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:41,400
Speaker 16: took a break from the holidays because people were just

1905
01:23:41,479 --> 01:23:43,880
Speaker 16: generally unable to make it out and everything was super

1906
01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:47,800
Speaker 16: chaotic at the store. And after the holidays, I had

1907
01:23:47,800 --> 01:23:53,960
Speaker 16: the idea of hosting potlucks essentially and inviting people to potlucks. Ah,

1908
01:23:54,120 --> 01:23:57,160
Speaker 16: I can't remember, Renee, were you coming to these meetings

1909
01:23:57,200 --> 01:23:58,760
Speaker 16: before or after the potlucks?

1910
01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:02,759
Speaker 17: The first meeting I went to was at the hall

1911
01:24:03,400 --> 01:24:08,800
Speaker 17: where it was essentially just us grieving about our working

1912
01:24:08,840 --> 01:24:12,080
Speaker 17: conditions while the seasonals were there, and sort of it

1913
01:24:12,200 --> 01:24:15,080
Speaker 17: was I don't know how much it was in the

1914
01:24:15,120 --> 01:24:17,680
Speaker 17: works for you, how much stuff you had done up

1915
01:24:17,760 --> 01:24:20,719
Speaker 17: until that point, but I think that was the moment

1916
01:24:21,720 --> 01:24:27,000
Speaker 17: where we sort of became confident as a body in

1917
01:24:27,520 --> 01:24:35,560
Speaker 17: our prospects were unionizing. And then ye, the Pollux.

1918
01:24:35,200 --> 01:24:39,760
Speaker 16: Thereafter, Yeah, and the Pollux ended up starting to pull

1919
01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:43,599
Speaker 16: around around ten people. I think the highest attended one

1920
01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:46,040
Speaker 16: was actually twelve. And so when you have a shop

1921
01:24:46,080 --> 01:24:48,320
Speaker 16: that has about thirty two people in the bargaining unit,

1922
01:24:48,760 --> 01:24:51,520
Speaker 16: that is about a third of the shop attending an

1923
01:24:51,560 --> 01:24:55,320
Speaker 16: early union meeting while we're still in the underground phase

1924
01:24:55,760 --> 01:25:00,280
Speaker 16: of organizing, and we managed to successfully remain under round

1925
01:25:00,439 --> 01:25:02,759
Speaker 16: up until we decided to go public on our own terms.

1926
01:25:03,120 --> 01:25:06,439
Speaker 16: On March thirty. First, we had a march on the Boss,

1927
01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:10,200
Speaker 16: which slightly inconveniently, the boss had actually left the shop

1928
01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:13,439
Speaker 16: about forty five minutes early in for a shift, and

1929
01:25:13,479 --> 01:25:15,800
Speaker 16: we had accounted for her leaving early, but we didn't

1930
01:25:15,800 --> 01:25:18,519
Speaker 16: account for her leaving that early, and so the march

1931
01:25:18,560 --> 01:25:21,439
Speaker 16: on the boss kind of had this anti climax moment

1932
01:25:21,479 --> 01:25:24,479
Speaker 16: where the manager just wasn't in the store anymore and

1933
01:25:24,520 --> 01:25:29,720
Speaker 16: there wasn't anyone that actually had supervisory authority at the

1934
01:25:29,760 --> 01:25:31,840
Speaker 16: store for the march.

1935
01:25:33,439 --> 01:25:35,720
Speaker 12: Which I think there's two things there. I want to

1936
01:25:35,720 --> 01:25:38,640
Speaker 12: I want to come back to. Wond is the like,

1937
01:25:38,720 --> 01:25:42,040
Speaker 12: oh yeah, well, of course management. Management never found out

1938
01:25:42,040 --> 01:25:44,639
Speaker 12: about the UNI, but just left early because their management.

1939
01:25:44,680 --> 01:25:47,559
Speaker 12: And it's like, oh right, no, yeah, what happens if

1940
01:25:47,600 --> 01:25:50,160
Speaker 12: you leave just randomly walk off your job site like

1941
01:25:50,200 --> 01:25:54,479
Speaker 12: forty five minutes early, you're fucked. But managements just like, yeah,

1942
01:25:54,520 --> 01:25:56,559
Speaker 12: fuck it, I'm just done. I'm just out, Like I'm

1943
01:25:56,600 --> 01:25:58,920
Speaker 12: just I'm just leaving. Everything's gonna be fine, even if

1944
01:25:58,960 --> 01:26:03,960
Speaker 12: I'm not there, so I'm just leave roadly, right. God,

1945
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:06,400
Speaker 12: I wanted to talk about the potlucks a little bit

1946
01:26:06,439 --> 01:26:10,000
Speaker 12: because it's a really good idea as just a way

1947
01:26:10,080 --> 01:26:11,880
Speaker 12: to make sure you can consistently get a bunch of

1948
01:26:11,920 --> 01:26:14,960
Speaker 12: people there, and yeah, can you talk about sort of

1949
01:26:15,000 --> 01:26:17,439
Speaker 12: what that was like and how they've been and what

1950
01:26:17,479 --> 01:26:18,439
Speaker 12: the effect of that has been.

1951
01:26:19,200 --> 01:26:23,040
Speaker 16: The POTLUCKX came about because I had the idea that

1952
01:26:23,560 --> 01:26:25,680
Speaker 16: people are going to be more willing to come to

1953
01:26:25,760 --> 01:26:28,000
Speaker 16: an event if it wasn't just going to be a

1954
01:26:28,280 --> 01:26:31,439
Speaker 16: meeting where they sat down and had to talk shop

1955
01:26:31,640 --> 01:26:34,240
Speaker 16: and they had to start talking about work while they're

1956
01:26:34,240 --> 01:26:34,840
Speaker 16: off the clock.

1957
01:26:35,120 --> 01:26:36,240
Speaker 2: But they'd be more much more.

1958
01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:38,800
Speaker 16: Likely to come if the meeting was framed more as

1959
01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:40,640
Speaker 16: a way to just hang out with their coworkers and

1960
01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:41,200
Speaker 16: eat dinner.

1961
01:26:41,640 --> 01:26:42,000
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1962
01:26:42,200 --> 01:26:45,400
Speaker 16: So this actually came from my experience when I was

1963
01:26:45,400 --> 01:26:48,120
Speaker 16: a kid. I grew up behind and even though I'm

1964
01:26:48,160 --> 01:26:50,600
Speaker 16: no longer Behi, the way that our community did it

1965
01:26:50,640 --> 01:26:55,760
Speaker 16: back home was mostly through community feasts and having prioritizing,

1966
01:26:55,920 --> 01:26:58,400
Speaker 16: like the feasts first and then the religious discussion later.

1967
01:26:58,960 --> 01:27:02,720
Speaker 16: So taking that sort of and putting a more of

1968
01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:05,439
Speaker 16: a union spin on it was the idea behind that,

1969
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:08,479
Speaker 16: and it was a massive hit. Oh yeah, Renee, do

1970
01:27:08,479 --> 01:27:09,680
Speaker 16: you have any more thoughts on that?

1971
01:27:10,520 --> 01:27:11,080
Speaker 9: Yeah?

1972
01:27:11,240 --> 01:27:15,680
Speaker 17: I think the fact too that our worker body is

1973
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:18,559
Speaker 17: I don't know if uniquely is the right word, but

1974
01:27:19,360 --> 01:27:25,080
Speaker 17: especially tight knit and supportive of one another really just

1975
01:27:25,120 --> 01:27:31,439
Speaker 17: sort of helped things flow in a very natural and

1976
01:27:32,439 --> 01:27:37,240
Speaker 17: easy going way. It was just super like salient for

1977
01:27:37,320 --> 01:27:42,040
Speaker 17: everything to come about out of these pollocks. We just

1978
01:27:42,080 --> 01:27:45,760
Speaker 17: sort of like sat down and immediately started like complaining

1979
01:27:45,800 --> 01:27:49,920
Speaker 17: about work. That oh yeah got us going, and like

1980
01:27:50,479 --> 01:27:54,680
Speaker 17: pretty much every meeting sense like that's how we just

1981
01:27:54,760 --> 01:27:58,240
Speaker 17: like start our our discussion or in our meetings is

1982
01:27:58,320 --> 01:28:03,400
Speaker 17: just what bullshit have you been facing from your managers?

1983
01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:07,200
Speaker 17: Et cetera. And we have to cut it short every time.

1984
01:28:09,680 --> 01:28:12,080
Speaker 16: Yeah, it feels bad sometimes to have to cut these

1985
01:28:12,160 --> 01:28:15,320
Speaker 16: complaints periods short because I think they can go on

1986
01:28:15,560 --> 01:28:19,599
Speaker 16: for two to three hours if if we're not careful,

1987
01:28:19,800 --> 01:28:21,880
Speaker 16: and I think the early ones did to actually go

1988
01:28:21,960 --> 01:28:23,840
Speaker 16: on for two to three hours, and we had clearly

1989
01:28:23,920 --> 01:28:27,080
Speaker 16: cought books that we didn't get any actual business done.

1990
01:28:27,160 --> 01:28:29,840
Speaker 16: We just spent two to three hours eating food and

1991
01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:33,160
Speaker 16: complaining about work with each other. And honestly, that kind

1992
01:28:33,200 --> 01:28:35,400
Speaker 16: of helped people get more comfortable with the idea, and

1993
01:28:35,640 --> 01:28:39,840
Speaker 16: it really agitated people in a way that I don't

1994
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:41,280
Speaker 16: think we would have been able to do if we

1995
01:28:41,360 --> 01:28:43,519
Speaker 16: had just like tried to talk to people at work

1996
01:28:43,560 --> 01:28:46,639
Speaker 16: about unionizing or had like a more formal meeting, And

1997
01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:48,639
Speaker 16: it really just kept the moment in going.

1998
01:28:49,040 --> 01:28:49,280
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1999
01:28:49,560 --> 01:28:54,720
Speaker 17: I think it has this effect of like realizing everything

2000
01:28:55,320 --> 01:28:58,000
Speaker 17: because I mean, even I would walk in and be thinking, like,

2001
01:28:58,880 --> 01:29:04,040
Speaker 17: you know, this is like such a taxing endeavor unionizing

2002
01:29:04,360 --> 01:29:07,240
Speaker 17: the workplace, and yeah, yeah, every once in a while

2003
01:29:07,280 --> 01:29:10,920
Speaker 17: you'd have some sort of hesitation, I guess, but then

2004
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:13,439
Speaker 17: every time I would leave, it would just sort of

2005
01:29:13,479 --> 01:29:17,080
Speaker 17: be like, this is like this is the only option

2006
01:29:17,880 --> 01:29:22,040
Speaker 17: and we're definitely going to do it, and we're all

2007
01:29:22,080 --> 01:29:23,440
Speaker 17: with it and it feels good.

2008
01:29:23,800 --> 01:29:27,600
Speaker 12: Well yeah, yeah, it seems like from from everything that

2009
01:29:27,640 --> 01:29:29,360
Speaker 12: I've heard and everything that you're saying, it seems like

2010
01:29:29,400 --> 01:29:33,200
Speaker 12: it's a really powerful way to sort of both combat

2011
01:29:33,200 --> 01:29:36,160
Speaker 12: atomization both. Is it just like, oh, this is like

2012
01:29:36,200 --> 01:29:38,160
Speaker 12: a social space where you and the people you work

2013
01:29:38,200 --> 01:29:40,320
Speaker 12: with who are your friends can exist with each other,

2014
01:29:40,360 --> 01:29:43,400
Speaker 12: and then also in a we can combat sort of

2015
01:29:44,040 --> 01:29:47,639
Speaker 12: alienation and adimisation and stuff by just doing the union

2016
01:29:47,760 --> 01:29:50,240
Speaker 12: work of Oh my god, we all have all of.

2017
01:29:50,160 --> 01:29:51,640
Speaker 6: These issues with our bosses.

2018
01:29:52,080 --> 01:29:52,640
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2019
01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:57,080
Speaker 12: Yeah, and when we return, we're going to talking and

2020
01:29:57,120 --> 01:29:59,559
Speaker 12: going to ask about the issues with the bosses. But

2021
01:29:59,640 --> 01:30:03,799
Speaker 12: first here I don't know the product services that support

2022
01:30:03,880 --> 01:30:04,720
Speaker 12: this podcast.

2023
01:30:14,920 --> 01:30:16,559
Speaker 17: We are back.

2024
01:30:17,240 --> 01:30:18,800
Speaker 12: I was like, oh, I have a good transition. I

2025
01:30:18,800 --> 01:30:20,920
Speaker 12: can go from complaining about the bosses to talk about

2026
01:30:20,920 --> 01:30:23,360
Speaker 12: what the bosses are doing. And then I was like, shit,

2027
01:30:23,560 --> 01:30:27,280
Speaker 12: I was supposed to cut an add We didn't think

2028
01:30:27,280 --> 01:30:30,559
Speaker 12: of that one fast enough, but you know, speaking speaking

2029
01:30:30,600 --> 01:30:34,439
Speaker 12: of doing things fast enough. So yeah, I wanted to

2030
01:30:34,479 --> 01:30:37,160
Speaker 12: ask before we get into sort of how things have

2031
01:30:37,240 --> 01:30:40,559
Speaker 12: been going more recently and where the campaign is going

2032
01:30:40,600 --> 01:30:44,040
Speaker 12: in elections stuff, other than sort of the pay raise stuff,

2033
01:30:44,040 --> 01:30:46,120
Speaker 12: what are the kinds of things that people have been

2034
01:30:46,280 --> 01:30:48,040
Speaker 12: dealing with Atmuji.

2035
01:30:48,960 --> 01:30:52,080
Speaker 16: So there's a lot of small things that have kind

2036
01:30:52,080 --> 01:30:54,640
Speaker 16: of piled up, and honestly, I say small things, but

2037
01:30:55,160 --> 01:30:57,760
Speaker 16: each one of these is kind of just like shocking

2038
01:30:57,840 --> 01:31:02,559
Speaker 16: on its own, but not rising necessarily to anyone that's

2039
01:31:02,560 --> 01:31:05,280
Speaker 16: worked in the service industry at all. Yeah, So, beyond

2040
01:31:05,320 --> 01:31:07,960
Speaker 16: the races, there's just been like a long pattern of

2041
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:11,960
Speaker 16: emotional abuse from the bosses. People have been have been

2042
01:31:12,160 --> 01:31:15,160
Speaker 16: yelled at for pretty much no reason. The bosses have

2043
01:31:15,320 --> 01:31:18,719
Speaker 16: directly insulted workers' abilities, like on the floor as they're

2044
01:31:18,720 --> 01:31:22,519
Speaker 16: doing stuff. They've done things like pressure staff not to

2045
01:31:22,600 --> 01:31:25,280
Speaker 16: use their sick time, even going so far as occasionally

2046
01:31:25,280 --> 01:31:27,800
Speaker 16: implying that getting sick is like your own fault and

2047
01:31:27,840 --> 01:31:31,840
Speaker 16: that people are able to perfectly prevent themselves from getting sick.

2048
01:31:32,680 --> 01:31:35,960
Speaker 12: Yeah, in your job, you have to be around people

2049
01:31:36,040 --> 01:31:40,519
Speaker 12: all the time because you're doing a service. God, I

2050
01:31:40,640 --> 01:31:45,759
Speaker 12: hate this, like getting weird pseudo eugenesis shit about disease

2051
01:31:45,840 --> 01:31:49,800
Speaker 12: that's just everywhere now that runs the Department of yeah,

2052
01:31:49,920 --> 01:31:51,479
Speaker 12: Health and Human Services of the CDC.

2053
01:31:52,760 --> 01:31:56,479
Speaker 16: Like this, this weekend or this last weekend at the

2054
01:31:56,479 --> 01:31:59,880
Speaker 16: time of recording was Memorial Day weekend, and on SAT,

2055
01:32:00,280 --> 01:32:03,439
Speaker 16: the peak day of that weekend, there were three thousand

2056
01:32:03,520 --> 01:32:06,840
Speaker 16: customers approximately in store over the course of the day.

2057
01:32:07,400 --> 01:32:11,040
Speaker 16: And reminder that we are a team of thirty two

2058
01:32:11,160 --> 01:32:14,759
Speaker 16: people in total, and so of course not all thirty

2059
01:32:14,760 --> 01:32:16,400
Speaker 16: two people are going to be at the store at

2060
01:32:16,400 --> 01:32:19,200
Speaker 16: once at the same time. And so when your crew

2061
01:32:19,280 --> 01:32:23,800
Speaker 16: is maybe ten fifteen if you're lucky, people big and

2062
01:32:23,920 --> 01:32:26,680
Speaker 16: handling a customer volume of about three thousand over the

2063
01:32:26,720 --> 01:32:29,400
Speaker 16: course of a day. You're interacting with so many people

2064
01:32:29,479 --> 01:32:32,040
Speaker 16: that it's worse than Maybe it's not worse than, because

2065
01:32:32,360 --> 01:32:36,040
Speaker 16: kids can get pretty pretty nasty sometimes, with much respect

2066
01:32:36,040 --> 01:32:39,200
Speaker 16: to all the teachers out there, it can get to

2067
01:32:39,280 --> 01:32:41,639
Speaker 16: be a bit of a biohazard, especially when you're working

2068
01:32:41,680 --> 01:32:44,080
Speaker 16: in places like the fitting room that don't have ventilation

2069
01:32:44,640 --> 01:32:48,760
Speaker 16: and you're possibly interacting the closest with customers, and you're

2070
01:32:48,920 --> 01:32:52,080
Speaker 16: constantly interacting with like clothing that has been like pressed

2071
01:32:52,160 --> 01:32:55,920
Speaker 16: up against people's bodies. You're interacting with people that just

2072
01:32:55,960 --> 01:32:58,679
Speaker 16: aren't being super conscious about the space, and you're maybe

2073
01:32:58,680 --> 01:33:02,080
Speaker 16: you're in this small confines with two, three, even four

2074
01:33:02,120 --> 01:33:05,120
Speaker 16: other people for a prolonged period of time. Of course,

2075
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:07,280
Speaker 16: the customer service team is going to get sick more.

2076
01:33:07,600 --> 01:33:10,600
Speaker 12: Yeah, that's like a small and medium sized like convention

2077
01:33:11,280 --> 01:33:13,680
Speaker 12: that's just running through your store over the course of

2078
01:33:13,800 --> 01:33:15,920
Speaker 12: one day. It's like, oh, yeah, everyone has like pax

2079
01:33:16,040 --> 01:33:18,519
Speaker 12: pocks or whatever they're like convention plague is. But that's

2080
01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:22,400
Speaker 12: just like going to work. It's like oh yeah, no,

2081
01:33:22,520 --> 01:33:25,559
Speaker 12: of course, apparently somehow you're supposed to like magically have

2082
01:33:25,640 --> 01:33:30,400
Speaker 12: the like anti disease talismans. Yeah, it's like the plagued masses.

2083
01:33:33,360 --> 01:33:36,639
Speaker 16: And on top of that, I've called out maybe once

2084
01:33:36,680 --> 01:33:39,040
Speaker 16: a month. I think that maybe there's one month where

2085
01:33:39,080 --> 01:33:42,080
Speaker 16: it was twice a month since January. And I've already

2086
01:33:42,160 --> 01:33:44,240
Speaker 16: used up all the allocated sick time that I get

2087
01:33:44,280 --> 01:33:46,960
Speaker 16: for a year, Jesus. And that's with one of the

2088
01:33:47,320 --> 01:33:50,680
Speaker 16: better sick pay plans as a full timer. And so

2089
01:33:50,760 --> 01:33:52,800
Speaker 16: I can't imagine what people are having to go through

2090
01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:55,080
Speaker 16: at part time, where they're already not getting enough hours

2091
01:33:55,080 --> 01:33:57,240
Speaker 16: to pay rent off of their job. Yeah, and they're

2092
01:33:57,280 --> 01:33:59,840
Speaker 16: having to decide essentially between coming to work sick or

2093
01:34:00,040 --> 01:34:03,439
Speaker 16: calling out and taking that financial hit. I know one

2094
01:34:03,439 --> 01:34:07,280
Speaker 16: of our staff members has actually been evicted because they

2095
01:34:07,320 --> 01:34:09,920
Speaker 16: were not able to make rent because they didn't make

2096
01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:10,639
Speaker 16: enough hours.

2097
01:34:10,960 --> 01:34:14,600
Speaker 17: Oh my god, we're just having your sick hours rejected

2098
01:34:15,120 --> 01:34:15,799
Speaker 17: on the app.

2099
01:34:16,120 --> 01:34:17,599
Speaker 6: But it's an app.

2100
01:34:17,640 --> 01:34:18,439
Speaker 12: Oh my god.

2101
01:34:18,960 --> 01:34:19,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

2102
01:34:19,840 --> 01:34:21,840
Speaker 12: If your sick hours can get rejected, you don't have

2103
01:34:21,880 --> 01:34:23,840
Speaker 12: sick hours like yeah.

2104
01:34:24,520 --> 01:34:27,559
Speaker 16: And there's more too. It doesn't end there. They apply

2105
01:34:27,720 --> 01:34:30,760
Speaker 16: policies that we have this employee handbook that has this

2106
01:34:31,400 --> 01:34:36,320
Speaker 16: list of requirements and expectations and it is not really

2107
01:34:36,360 --> 01:34:39,759
Speaker 16: a huge part of our employment typically, but the policies

2108
01:34:39,760 --> 01:34:42,439
Speaker 16: that they have listed there are applied and consistently. Stuff

2109
01:34:42,479 --> 01:34:45,439
Speaker 16: like the uniform code is one of the biggest examples

2110
01:34:45,439 --> 01:34:48,559
Speaker 16: of this, where they will more heavily enforce the uniform

2111
01:34:48,600 --> 01:34:51,240
Speaker 16: code against people of color, or people with alternative styles

2112
01:34:51,280 --> 01:34:54,640
Speaker 16: of dress, or even they can be they can be

2113
01:34:54,720 --> 01:34:57,519
Speaker 16: fairly fat phobic. There have been multiple people that have

2114
01:34:58,120 --> 01:35:01,439
Speaker 16: said that the managers will shure them to essentially cover

2115
01:35:01,560 --> 01:35:03,799
Speaker 16: up parts of their body, that they will allow skinnier

2116
01:35:03,840 --> 01:35:05,439
Speaker 16: people to show.

2117
01:35:05,920 --> 01:35:11,559
Speaker 12: What Jesus Christ, Oh my god, that is so incredibly shitty,

2118
01:35:11,840 --> 01:35:14,880
Speaker 12: and that's got to be illegal somehow, even under like

2119
01:35:15,040 --> 01:35:18,639
Speaker 12: unhinged American labor law. That just feels like it feels

2120
01:35:18,680 --> 01:35:23,360
Speaker 12: like a very open form of discrimination. But Jesus Christ,

2121
01:35:24,520 --> 01:35:25,280
Speaker 12: oh my god.

2122
01:35:26,080 --> 01:35:28,720
Speaker 16: Yeah, do you have anything to add renee.

2123
01:35:28,439 --> 01:35:32,160
Speaker 17: Along those lines, just sort of like being asked to

2124
01:35:32,320 --> 01:35:37,080
Speaker 17: profile people. All employees can be scheduled to cover the

2125
01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:42,160
Speaker 17: securities breaks, which basically just involves standing around one of

2126
01:35:42,200 --> 01:35:50,560
Speaker 17: the entrances and reporting anything quote fishy on the radios,

2127
01:35:50,880 --> 01:35:53,440
Speaker 17: anything suspicious, they say suspicious.

2128
01:35:53,520 --> 01:35:55,559
Speaker 12: So they could just co opt you into being a

2129
01:35:55,600 --> 01:35:56,400
Speaker 12: security guard.

2130
01:35:56,720 --> 01:36:00,600
Speaker 17: What, Yeah, the security guard doesn't have any duties regarding

2131
01:36:00,640 --> 01:36:05,960
Speaker 17: like loss prevention. All the managers do that as part

2132
01:36:05,960 --> 01:36:09,800
Speaker 17: of their duties, I guess. But yeah, so they just

2133
01:36:09,840 --> 01:36:12,040
Speaker 17: sort of say suspicious people.

2134
01:36:12,520 --> 01:36:15,200
Speaker 16: And on that note too, there have been times where

2135
01:36:15,240 --> 01:36:18,519
Speaker 16: people have been maybe not strictly disciplined. I actually don't

2136
01:36:18,520 --> 01:36:20,320
Speaker 16: know for sure if there's been an instant of someone

2137
01:36:20,360 --> 01:36:22,040
Speaker 16: being written up, but there have been times where the

2138
01:36:22,080 --> 01:36:26,400
Speaker 16: managers have approached people and essentially just I yelled at

2139
01:36:26,400 --> 01:36:28,719
Speaker 16: them for allowing someone to get out of the store

2140
01:36:28,720 --> 01:36:32,040
Speaker 16: with merchandise, even though loss prevention is very specifically not

2141
01:36:32,160 --> 01:36:35,559
Speaker 16: part of our job description and that the official store

2142
01:36:35,600 --> 01:36:39,439
Speaker 16: policy actively discourages staff from engaging an active loss prevention

2143
01:36:39,600 --> 01:36:39,800
Speaker 16: like that.

2144
01:36:40,680 --> 01:36:44,479
Speaker 12: So you're getting yelled at for doing the thing you

2145
01:36:44,520 --> 01:36:46,800
Speaker 12: were told to do that is explicitly not part of

2146
01:36:46,840 --> 01:36:49,760
Speaker 12: your job, that's supposed to be the manager's job, and

2147
01:36:49,800 --> 01:36:53,120
Speaker 12: the managers are pissed off that you're not doing what's

2148
01:36:53,160 --> 01:36:56,680
Speaker 12: nominally their job. That you also and the written thing

2149
01:36:56,680 --> 01:37:00,720
Speaker 12: you're not supposed to do. Exactly incredible, incredible, incredible catch

2150
01:37:00,760 --> 01:37:05,240
Speaker 12: twenty two logic here, it's real, just oh, yeah, you're

2151
01:37:05,280 --> 01:37:07,599
Speaker 12: explicitly not supposed to do this. You could get punished

2152
01:37:07,640 --> 01:37:09,120
Speaker 12: if you do it, but also if you don't do it,

2153
01:37:09,160 --> 01:37:12,120
Speaker 12: we're gonna yell at you. It's gone. Jesus Christ.

2154
01:37:13,800 --> 01:37:19,280
Speaker 16: Yeah, yeah, naturally, there's not really anything that we can

2155
01:37:19,360 --> 01:37:24,400
Speaker 16: do about this besides unionize and besides start taking actions

2156
01:37:24,439 --> 01:37:27,479
Speaker 16: on our own, because the law certainly isn't going to

2157
01:37:27,520 --> 01:37:31,400
Speaker 16: help us for this. Even organ state law, which is

2158
01:37:31,800 --> 01:37:34,280
Speaker 16: which hans to be more protective of workers than other

2159
01:37:34,320 --> 01:37:39,320
Speaker 16: states are. They're incredibly overwhelmed right now with requests and

2160
01:37:39,680 --> 01:37:43,160
Speaker 16: going through the bully Bureau of organ Labor and Industries

2161
01:37:43,200 --> 01:37:47,360
Speaker 16: I think is the acronym going down the Bullie websites lists.

2162
01:37:47,439 --> 01:37:50,679
Speaker 16: There's a complaints box, but it says on the website

2163
01:37:50,720 --> 01:37:53,439
Speaker 16: that they have an incredibly high backlog of complaints that

2164
01:37:53,439 --> 01:37:55,640
Speaker 16: they're trying to process and that they're going through a

2165
01:37:55,640 --> 01:37:59,040
Speaker 16: triage system, and none of the things that we've listed

2166
01:37:59,080 --> 01:38:02,400
Speaker 16: so far to be placed very highly on that triage.

2167
01:38:02,960 --> 01:38:07,240
Speaker 16: In addition to that, we don't have access to direct

2168
01:38:07,280 --> 01:38:10,599
Speaker 16: access to our HR department at work. They ask us

2169
01:38:10,640 --> 01:38:13,600
Speaker 16: to go through a third party reporting company called Lighthouse,

2170
01:38:14,439 --> 01:38:17,000
Speaker 16: and as far as I know, no one has ever

2171
01:38:17,280 --> 01:38:20,920
Speaker 16: heard anything about Lighthouse doing anything to resolve a situation

2172
01:38:21,120 --> 01:38:24,880
Speaker 16: between them and management when management is treating them unfairly incredible,

2173
01:38:25,240 --> 01:38:28,880
Speaker 16: and it's essentially feels like just shouting into the void

2174
01:38:29,080 --> 01:38:32,880
Speaker 16: interacting with Lighthouse because you're just sending a complaint to

2175
01:38:33,200 --> 01:38:36,479
Speaker 16: a body that you don't have any access to and

2176
01:38:36,600 --> 01:38:37,960
Speaker 16: just hoping that they fix something.

2177
01:38:38,360 --> 01:38:42,040
Speaker 12: So they've contracted out their HR department, so you're just

2178
01:38:42,040 --> 01:38:44,120
Speaker 12: like talking to their car or is it that you

2179
01:38:44,120 --> 01:38:48,040
Speaker 12: can't communicate with them directly? And that's very weird.

2180
01:38:48,360 --> 01:38:52,439
Speaker 16: So they have an HR department. The workers at the

2181
01:38:52,520 --> 01:38:56,800
Speaker 16: physical location cannot communicate with HR. We are not given

2182
01:38:56,840 --> 01:38:59,760
Speaker 16: their their phone numbers, or their emails or anything like that.

2183
01:39:00,240 --> 01:39:02,880
Speaker 16: All of our HR communication has to be done through

2184
01:39:02,920 --> 01:39:05,840
Speaker 16: our general store manager. So when we have problems with

2185
01:39:05,960 --> 01:39:09,360
Speaker 16: the general store manager or assistant store managers, we can't

2186
01:39:09,439 --> 01:39:11,760
Speaker 16: really go to HR because we have to go through

2187
01:39:11,760 --> 01:39:14,160
Speaker 16: the very people that we're having problems with in order

2188
01:39:14,200 --> 01:39:15,040
Speaker 16: to reach our HR.

2189
01:39:15,280 --> 01:39:19,400
Speaker 12: Incredible. It's all means to make HR even faker, which

2190
01:39:19,439 --> 01:39:22,840
Speaker 12: is incredible. Oh good lord.

2191
01:39:23,880 --> 01:39:27,360
Speaker 16: It would also be remiss, I guess, to forget about

2192
01:39:27,520 --> 01:39:31,240
Speaker 16: the sexual assaults, Oh Jesus correct, Maybe not specifically sexual assault,

2193
01:39:31,400 --> 01:39:36,360
Speaker 16: but definitely sexual harassment possible sexual assault that has been

2194
01:39:36,640 --> 01:39:42,120
Speaker 16: raised to management before, where the management supposedly pushed those

2195
01:39:42,200 --> 01:39:45,679
Speaker 16: complaints to HR, but then HR would wait for weeks

2196
01:39:45,680 --> 01:39:48,839
Speaker 16: before doing anything about it. Oh my god, this happened

2197
01:39:48,960 --> 01:39:52,280
Speaker 16: a year or two ago. No, it was probably more

2198
01:39:52,280 --> 01:39:54,479
Speaker 16: in the realm of two to three years ago, if

2199
01:39:54,520 --> 01:39:58,320
Speaker 16: my memory is correct, where we had a coworker that

2200
01:39:58,520 --> 01:40:02,240
Speaker 16: was not just pro filing people and calling security on

2201
01:40:02,280 --> 01:40:05,120
Speaker 16: people that were doing nothing, but he was also sexually

2202
01:40:05,120 --> 01:40:12,080
Speaker 16: harassing other coworkers. Jesus Christ and the store managers told

2203
01:40:12,160 --> 01:40:14,280
Speaker 16: us that they had pushed these complaints to HR, but

2204
01:40:14,479 --> 01:40:19,599
Speaker 16: HR wasn't doing anything, and it took them about a month,

2205
01:40:19,720 --> 01:40:23,760
Speaker 16: I believe, to fire this person. And essentially what they

2206
01:40:23,800 --> 01:40:27,840
Speaker 16: were doing before is they were telling people that if

2207
01:40:27,920 --> 01:40:30,920
Speaker 16: they talked about the situation or create a drama about

2208
01:40:30,920 --> 01:40:33,439
Speaker 16: the situation, that they would retaliate against the people that

2209
01:40:33,479 --> 01:40:34,840
Speaker 16: were talking about the situation.

2210
01:40:34,960 --> 01:40:37,440
Speaker 3: Oh my god, Jesus.

2211
01:40:37,720 --> 01:40:40,080
Speaker 16: They didn't say outright, but they implied everything up to

2212
01:40:40,240 --> 01:40:43,040
Speaker 16: job loss for the people that were talking about this.

2213
01:40:43,360 --> 01:40:44,120
Speaker 12: Oh my god.

2214
01:40:44,800 --> 01:40:47,799
Speaker 16: And they started pulling people into the office and essentially

2215
01:40:47,840 --> 01:40:51,280
Speaker 16: having one on one conversations Oh my god, that were

2216
01:40:51,680 --> 01:40:54,519
Speaker 16: honestly quite scary to the people that were trying to

2217
01:40:54,560 --> 01:40:57,120
Speaker 16: spread the word about this, and they created quite a

2218
01:40:57,120 --> 01:41:01,040
Speaker 16: hostile store environment for a long time. Around that time

2219
01:41:01,160 --> 01:41:03,599
Speaker 16: was actually the first time that we had attempted to

2220
01:41:03,600 --> 01:41:05,519
Speaker 16: try and get a push to unionize, but that ended

2221
01:41:05,600 --> 01:41:08,640
Speaker 16: up dissolving and that was essentially the end of that

2222
01:41:08,880 --> 01:41:10,839
Speaker 16: up until on this most recent push.

2223
01:41:11,040 --> 01:41:11,360
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2224
01:41:11,400 --> 01:41:15,639
Speaker 12: God, that's really hideous, both the way in which they

2225
01:41:15,680 --> 01:41:18,639
Speaker 12: just pushed it up the latter to HR and then

2226
01:41:18,840 --> 01:41:21,439
Speaker 12: just didn't do anything about it for like a fucking

2227
01:41:21,520 --> 01:41:24,320
Speaker 12: month that that also just the only thing they did

2228
01:41:24,400 --> 01:41:26,880
Speaker 12: do about it was retaliating against people who were trying

2229
01:41:26,880 --> 01:41:30,120
Speaker 12: to talk about it. That is Jesus as disgusting.

2230
01:41:30,960 --> 01:41:33,280
Speaker 16: Yeah, about the most that they did during that month

2231
01:41:33,360 --> 01:41:35,680
Speaker 16: to the actual coworker in question that was doing the

2232
01:41:35,720 --> 01:41:40,040
Speaker 16: harassment was they tried to maintain some degree of physical

2233
01:41:40,080 --> 01:41:44,120
Speaker 16: separation between him and the other coworkers and that was it.

2234
01:41:44,520 --> 01:41:47,840
Speaker 16: They kept him on the roster, They kept him at

2235
01:41:47,880 --> 01:41:50,639
Speaker 16: the same positions that other people were working. He had

2236
01:41:50,840 --> 01:41:53,280
Speaker 16: essentially all the same job responsibilities as other people and

2237
01:41:53,320 --> 01:41:55,160
Speaker 16: still had a pretty high degree of contact with other

2238
01:41:55,200 --> 01:41:56,559
Speaker 16: coworkers during this whole time.

2239
01:41:56,800 --> 01:41:59,040
Speaker 12: Yeah, So the people who were trying to speak out.

2240
01:41:59,040 --> 01:42:00,920
Speaker 12: I guess it until this I was fired, we're getting

2241
01:42:00,920 --> 01:42:01,840
Speaker 12: punished more than he.

2242
01:42:01,880 --> 01:42:06,320
Speaker 16: Was, essentially, Yeah, Jesus all the way up until he

2243
01:42:06,360 --> 01:42:08,840
Speaker 16: was finally fired. And I don't know what it was

2244
01:42:08,880 --> 01:42:10,680
Speaker 16: that actually got them to do it this time, but

2245
01:42:11,280 --> 01:42:14,320
Speaker 16: they wanted to wait until they had got something actually

2246
01:42:14,360 --> 01:42:17,800
Speaker 16: on camera, I believe, but it's kind of hard for

2247
01:42:17,920 --> 01:42:21,439
Speaker 16: you to catch something like harassment words on camera.

2248
01:42:21,920 --> 01:42:22,480
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2249
01:42:22,560 --> 01:42:25,880
Speaker 16: If their bar for sexual harassment is stuff that they

2250
01:42:25,880 --> 01:42:27,960
Speaker 16: can catch on camera, they're never going to get most

2251
01:42:28,040 --> 01:42:31,439
Speaker 16: instances of harassment, and they're not doing their their proper

2252
01:42:31,560 --> 01:42:33,680
Speaker 16: job investigating these accusations.

2253
01:42:34,080 --> 01:42:37,000
Speaker 12: Yeah, and that also means that they're delivered strategy is

2254
01:42:37,040 --> 01:42:40,080
Speaker 12: to wait for someone to get hurt again, exactly. That's right,

2255
01:42:40,120 --> 01:42:43,599
Speaker 12: They're just throwing them to the fucking lions dend. Their

2256
01:42:43,680 --> 01:42:46,439
Speaker 12: strategy to detect that a bus is about to hit

2257
01:42:46,479 --> 01:42:48,000
Speaker 12: someone is to push someone in front of the bus

2258
01:42:48,080 --> 01:42:50,360
Speaker 12: and take a picture of it, which is just so

2259
01:42:50,560 --> 01:42:51,920
Speaker 12: unbelievably unacceptable.

2260
01:42:52,320 --> 01:42:52,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2261
01:42:53,240 --> 01:42:56,160
Speaker 16: And I want to be clear too that this whole

2262
01:42:56,200 --> 01:43:00,880
Speaker 16: list is very much non exhaustive. There have been so

2263
01:43:01,000 --> 01:43:04,760
Speaker 16: many cases of just patterns of abuse for management and

2264
01:43:06,360 --> 01:43:08,920
Speaker 16: it's not possible for me to go down the entire

2265
01:43:08,960 --> 01:43:12,000
Speaker 16: list of things. I mean, as I mentioned previously, it

2266
01:43:12,040 --> 01:43:14,760
Speaker 16: would be two to three hours of people complaining about

2267
01:43:14,800 --> 01:43:17,639
Speaker 16: stuff that they had gone through at work during these meetings,

2268
01:43:18,160 --> 01:43:21,479
Speaker 16: and occasionally you get some repetition, but this is something

2269
01:43:21,479 --> 01:43:24,639
Speaker 16: that is very consistent. It's just a part of working

2270
01:43:24,720 --> 01:43:25,240
Speaker 16: at the store.

2271
01:43:25,880 --> 01:43:30,160
Speaker 12: Yeah, every day there's another unique core that someone is experiencing,

2272
01:43:31,520 --> 01:43:35,120
Speaker 12: and I guess this brings us to Okay, so how

2273
01:43:35,200 --> 01:43:39,840
Speaker 12: do you make the horrors stop? And that is unionizing.

2274
01:43:39,960 --> 01:43:43,880
Speaker 12: So yeah, let's talk about what's been happening recently in

2275
01:43:43,960 --> 01:43:48,519
Speaker 12: terms of like how the union is immobilizing and about

2276
01:43:48,560 --> 01:43:51,920
Speaker 12: the upcoming election, which will be a few days after

2277
01:43:51,960 --> 01:43:54,000
Speaker 12: you're hearing this, assuming you're listening to this the day

2278
01:43:54,000 --> 01:43:54,559
Speaker 12: it comes out.

2279
01:43:55,080 --> 01:43:58,840
Speaker 17: Yeah, So we've been sort of ramping up a little bit.

2280
01:43:58,920 --> 01:44:04,599
Speaker 17: It's been being inflowing since we started, you know, last

2281
01:44:04,800 --> 01:44:10,800
Speaker 17: like November, but we're really trying to kick it into gear,

2282
01:44:11,640 --> 01:44:19,200
Speaker 17: get people aware, get people back engaged. So we have

2283
01:44:19,280 --> 01:44:22,639
Speaker 17: a few things we've been doing well. On May first,

2284
01:44:22,760 --> 01:44:27,800
Speaker 17: for May Day, we tabled with the IWW and just

2285
01:44:28,040 --> 01:44:33,240
Speaker 17: started a petition just for signatures from the community. For

2286
01:44:33,360 --> 01:44:36,200
Speaker 17: support for acknowledgment if we ever need to, you know,

2287
01:44:36,280 --> 01:44:41,000
Speaker 17: pull it out and show our bosses that you know,

2288
01:44:41,080 --> 01:44:46,160
Speaker 17: this is no light endeavor. This is not like something

2289
01:44:46,200 --> 01:44:52,040
Speaker 17: they can laugh off. Yeah, but it ended up being

2290
01:44:52,479 --> 01:44:56,280
Speaker 17: sort of successful beyond what I imagined. We got lots

2291
01:44:56,280 --> 01:44:59,840
Speaker 17: of attention, lots of people saying that they had di

2292
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:03,680
Speaker 17: I know that we were unionizing, people taking lots of

2293
01:45:03,680 --> 01:45:08,200
Speaker 17: pictures of us. Our big banner, got one inquiry for

2294
01:45:08,439 --> 01:45:12,880
Speaker 17: a journal report that I think is out now, and

2295
01:45:12,920 --> 01:45:15,600
Speaker 17: we were also written about in what was it? Was

2296
01:45:15,640 --> 01:45:20,800
Speaker 17: it Oregon Live or was the Oregonian? Do you remember, Luna?

2297
01:45:21,520 --> 01:45:25,479
Speaker 16: We had a small article published about us by the

2298
01:45:25,520 --> 01:45:28,000
Speaker 16: Northwest Libor Press that was then picked up by the

2299
01:45:28,000 --> 01:45:28,839
Speaker 16: Portland Mercury.

2300
01:45:30,160 --> 01:45:33,320
Speaker 17: That's right. Yeah, So we did that. And then other

2301
01:45:33,400 --> 01:45:38,600
Speaker 17: than that, we're sort of fighting some recently published propaganda

2302
01:45:39,320 --> 01:45:46,320
Speaker 17: from our boss is with display a hilarious amount of misinformation, Yeah,

2303
01:45:46,360 --> 01:45:48,000
Speaker 17: average boss communication.

2304
01:45:48,880 --> 01:45:51,840
Speaker 16: The other big thing that's been happening is that the

2305
01:45:51,840 --> 01:45:54,599
Speaker 16: reason that the election is happening so long after our

2306
01:45:54,640 --> 01:45:58,760
Speaker 16: initial march and declaration of intense to unionize is that

2307
01:45:58,960 --> 01:46:01,599
Speaker 16: the bosses have been trying to divide up the bargaining

2308
01:46:01,680 --> 01:46:05,519
Speaker 16: unit in a fairly strange case where the employer has

2309
01:46:05,560 --> 01:46:09,760
Speaker 16: been contending that the merchandising staff, which is essentially the

2310
01:46:09,800 --> 01:46:12,120
Speaker 16: back of the house staff but only like a sub

2311
01:46:12,200 --> 01:46:14,360
Speaker 16: section of the back of the house staff, are not

2312
01:46:14,439 --> 01:46:17,840
Speaker 16: eligible for unionization under the same union as the rest

2313
01:46:17,840 --> 01:46:19,920
Speaker 16: of the staff are. H they did this under the

2314
01:46:19,960 --> 01:46:22,920
Speaker 16: notion that the merchandising staff don't share a community of

2315
01:46:22,920 --> 01:46:24,920
Speaker 16: interest with the rest of the staff. And the other

2316
01:46:24,920 --> 01:46:26,800
Speaker 16: thing that they tried to do is they tried to

2317
01:46:27,360 --> 01:46:30,400
Speaker 16: take the keyholders, which are sort of like a shift

2318
01:46:30,479 --> 01:46:34,400
Speaker 16: lead position, away from the bargaining unit by trying to

2319
01:46:34,400 --> 01:46:39,080
Speaker 16: get them designated as supervisors, specifically Section two to eleven

2320
01:46:39,120 --> 01:46:44,040
Speaker 16: supervisors under the National Labor Relations Act. And we managed

2321
01:46:44,160 --> 01:46:48,479
Speaker 16: to shoot down both of those contests in a board

2322
01:46:48,520 --> 01:46:51,800
Speaker 16: hearing with the National Labor Relations Board. Hell yeah, and

2323
01:46:51,920 --> 01:46:54,720
Speaker 16: the process took a little bit over a month if

2324
01:46:54,760 --> 01:46:59,160
Speaker 16: I remember correctly, and without going too heavily into detail

2325
01:46:59,200 --> 01:47:02,800
Speaker 16: about it, the community of interests rule basically says that

2326
01:47:02,880 --> 01:47:05,880
Speaker 16: if employees don't share a community of interest with members

2327
01:47:05,880 --> 01:47:08,000
Speaker 16: of a bargaining unit, they have to unionize under a

2328
01:47:08,000 --> 01:47:11,479
Speaker 16: different union. And then the other thing is that the

2329
01:47:11,600 --> 01:47:16,840
Speaker 16: NLRA says that if you have supervisory authority, and there's

2330
01:47:16,880 --> 01:47:19,240
Speaker 16: a whole laundry list of authorities that are defined in

2331
01:47:19,280 --> 01:47:22,880
Speaker 16: the act. If you are a supervisor, then you don't

2332
01:47:22,880 --> 01:47:27,559
Speaker 16: get to unionize legally, period. And so what made this

2333
01:47:27,680 --> 01:47:31,559
Speaker 16: case strange is that typically employers try and add groups

2334
01:47:31,600 --> 01:47:34,720
Speaker 16: of employees onto the unit they believe are on the

2335
01:47:34,760 --> 01:47:37,880
Speaker 16: side of the employer of the anti union side, and

2336
01:47:38,120 --> 01:47:41,559
Speaker 16: the union generally has to contend that these people don't

2337
01:47:41,560 --> 01:47:44,400
Speaker 16: share community of interests or are supervisors or whatever. So

2338
01:47:44,439 --> 01:47:46,840
Speaker 16: it's kind of a bit of a strange situation where

2339
01:47:46,840 --> 01:47:49,600
Speaker 16: it's turned on its head, where instead the employer is

2340
01:47:49,640 --> 01:47:53,240
Speaker 16: having to prove that these people are not sharing community

2341
01:47:53,240 --> 01:47:56,639
Speaker 16: of interests or our supervisors. And so, even though we

2342
01:47:56,720 --> 01:48:00,840
Speaker 16: couldn't afford proper legal counsel and so then and representatives

2343
01:48:00,840 --> 01:48:03,280
Speaker 16: were myself and a friend of ours who was a

2344
01:48:03,280 --> 01:48:07,240
Speaker 16: member of the IWW, we were able to essentially represent

2345
01:48:07,320 --> 01:48:11,320
Speaker 16: ourselves in this board hearing, and the case was decided

2346
01:48:11,360 --> 01:48:13,760
Speaker 16: in our faith for on both counts. Hell yeah, so

2347
01:48:14,560 --> 01:48:15,880
Speaker 16: rock it really does?

2348
01:48:16,040 --> 01:48:16,360
Speaker 11: I was.

2349
01:48:17,360 --> 01:48:19,599
Speaker 16: I was not shocked to find out that the case

2350
01:48:19,680 --> 01:48:21,880
Speaker 16: was decided in our favor on the community of interest issue,

2351
01:48:21,880 --> 01:48:25,519
Speaker 16: because that would be like saying that the back of

2352
01:48:25,560 --> 01:48:28,080
Speaker 16: the houseworkers at a restaurants can't unionize with the front

2353
01:48:28,120 --> 01:48:31,040
Speaker 16: of the houseworkers just because they have different job descriptions.

2354
01:48:31,240 --> 01:48:34,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, Chiverish right.

2355
01:48:34,760 --> 01:48:38,680
Speaker 16: However, I was surprised at first. I was surprised at

2356
01:48:38,760 --> 01:48:41,840
Speaker 16: least that we managed to win on the issues of

2357
01:48:42,040 --> 01:48:46,040
Speaker 16: supervisory authority with the keyholders. I thought that it would

2358
01:48:46,080 --> 01:48:48,360
Speaker 16: take a pretty solid case in order for us to

2359
01:48:48,400 --> 01:48:52,320
Speaker 16: defend against that. And huge props to our friend, who

2360
01:48:52,479 --> 01:48:55,599
Speaker 16: I'm not sure if they're comfortable being name dropped as

2361
01:48:55,640 --> 01:48:58,960
Speaker 16: an IWW member like five to the world, so I'm

2362
01:48:58,960 --> 01:49:02,200
Speaker 16: not going to name them, but it is large thanks

2363
01:49:02,240 --> 01:49:04,360
Speaker 16: to this friend of ours that'll be on that case.

2364
01:49:04,760 --> 01:49:17,240
Speaker 16: Oh so that's where we stand now, and the board

2365
01:49:17,280 --> 01:49:20,000
Speaker 16: hearing was decided in our favor, and the election has

2366
01:49:20,000 --> 01:49:23,920
Speaker 16: been decided for next week, and both guys are now

2367
01:49:24,000 --> 01:49:26,799
Speaker 16: just trying to have our campaigns in preparation.

2368
01:49:27,400 --> 01:49:31,479
Speaker 12: Yeah, hell yeah. It's a sort of different version of

2369
01:49:31,560 --> 01:49:35,280
Speaker 12: like the very common tactic of because bosses want there

2370
01:49:35,280 --> 01:49:39,200
Speaker 12: to be more time in between when you file your

2371
01:49:39,240 --> 01:49:41,519
Speaker 12: paperwork to unionize and the election, because it gives them

2372
01:49:41,560 --> 01:49:43,960
Speaker 12: more time to do intimidation and fear tactics, and like

2373
01:49:44,600 --> 01:49:48,559
Speaker 12: that period in between designed to unionize and getting to

2374
01:49:48,760 --> 01:49:50,639
Speaker 12: actually do the vote is one of the perios where

2375
01:49:50,720 --> 01:49:53,840
Speaker 12: union is most vulnerable. And it's also really impressive that, Yeah,

2376
01:49:53,880 --> 01:49:56,240
Speaker 12: you just sort of walked into the board hearing and

2377
01:49:56,280 --> 01:50:04,000
Speaker 12: beat them by just reading a bunch of labor law stuff. Yeah. Yeah,

2378
01:50:04,520 --> 01:50:08,680
Speaker 12: workers of the world too, fucking anti union lawyers zero.

2379
01:50:09,439 --> 01:50:09,879
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2380
01:50:10,560 --> 01:50:15,599
Speaker 16: Basically, yeah, it was very strange across examining my manager

2381
01:50:16,000 --> 01:50:21,599
Speaker 16: under oath hell yeah, and then going to work. I

2382
01:50:21,640 --> 01:50:25,240
Speaker 16: didn't manage to attend the entirety of either of the

2383
01:50:25,280 --> 01:50:28,200
Speaker 16: days of the hearing because I had to close. I

2384
01:50:28,240 --> 01:50:30,360
Speaker 16: had to go to work at noon on both days

2385
01:50:30,360 --> 01:50:33,320
Speaker 16: that the hearing was. That's so nuts, which is why

2386
01:50:33,320 --> 01:50:35,400
Speaker 16: I wasn't there for the full hearing for either of

2387
01:50:35,439 --> 01:50:38,519
Speaker 16: the days. So I ended up having to log on

2388
01:50:38,640 --> 01:50:42,200
Speaker 16: in the morning onto the zoom meeting and attend the

2389
01:50:42,240 --> 01:50:45,519
Speaker 16: first two and a half hours and then hop off

2390
01:50:45,560 --> 01:50:49,000
Speaker 16: call and leave and then go to work and see

2391
01:50:49,000 --> 01:50:50,479
Speaker 16: my managers at work.

2392
01:50:50,800 --> 01:50:59,880
Speaker 12: Oh my god, Oh my god. It's also that's so nuts.

2393
01:51:00,160 --> 01:51:02,599
Speaker 12: You didn't get time off to go to the union

2394
01:51:02,640 --> 01:51:04,120
Speaker 12: hearing exactly.

2395
01:51:04,320 --> 01:51:06,360
Speaker 17: Yeah, I mean they were getting paid right, that's.

2396
01:51:06,400 --> 01:51:07,800
Speaker 2: Why they were getting paid.

2397
01:51:08,000 --> 01:51:12,120
Speaker 16: Oh my god, the managers that were testifying in favor

2398
01:51:12,240 --> 01:51:13,760
Speaker 16: of the employer capitalism.

2399
01:51:13,880 --> 01:51:14,960
Speaker 2: Bad system.

2400
01:51:15,160 --> 01:51:18,000
Speaker 12: Wow, we could possibly have expected this.

2401
01:51:18,520 --> 01:51:21,479
Speaker 16: Yeah, it was actively a challenge to find witnesses to

2402
01:51:21,640 --> 01:51:25,000
Speaker 16: testify for us, because the people who would be able

2403
01:51:25,040 --> 01:51:28,160
Speaker 16: to call us witnesses or coworkers are people who are

2404
01:51:28,200 --> 01:51:31,719
Speaker 16: maybe working the days of the hearing and can't actually

2405
01:51:31,760 --> 01:51:35,479
Speaker 16: get time off to come testify because they have to

2406
01:51:35,479 --> 01:51:36,000
Speaker 16: be at work.

2407
01:51:36,120 --> 01:51:38,280
Speaker 8: Oh my god, that's so fucked.

2408
01:51:38,360 --> 01:51:40,280
Speaker 16: There was one person who we approached because we were

2409
01:51:40,280 --> 01:51:43,160
Speaker 16: hoping that they would testify for us, who couldn't because

2410
01:51:43,200 --> 01:51:46,800
Speaker 16: she was working that day. It's too too complicated of

2411
01:51:46,800 --> 01:51:50,720
Speaker 16: a process to want to try and like subpoena them

2412
01:51:50,840 --> 01:51:54,160
Speaker 16: and legally get them to have the time off to

2413
01:51:54,200 --> 01:51:55,639
Speaker 16: come to the hearing.

2414
01:51:56,000 --> 01:51:56,520
Speaker 6: Jesus.

2415
01:51:56,920 --> 01:51:59,200
Speaker 16: So we ended up just having to figure out a

2416
01:51:59,240 --> 01:52:02,360
Speaker 16: way to present witnesses and have a slightly weaker case

2417
01:52:02,400 --> 01:52:04,839
Speaker 16: because of it. And thankfully that didn't end up mattering.

2418
01:52:05,200 --> 01:52:07,280
Speaker 16: But for a minute I was worried that we wouldn't

2419
01:52:07,320 --> 01:52:09,280
Speaker 16: be able to have as good of a case as

2420
01:52:09,280 --> 01:52:10,960
Speaker 16: we could have because we were not able to get

2421
01:52:10,960 --> 01:52:12,719
Speaker 16: a keyholder on the stand like we were hoping.

2422
01:52:13,280 --> 01:52:16,120
Speaker 12: Yeah, I'm glad, I'm glad you're able to pull it together.

2423
01:52:16,160 --> 01:52:19,400
Speaker 12: That's really impressive. And yeah, that you still just beat

2424
01:52:19,439 --> 01:52:22,200
Speaker 12: them even though they had And I guess that is

2425
01:52:22,240 --> 01:52:24,120
Speaker 12: one of the lessons of this is like, yeah, if

2426
01:52:24,200 --> 01:52:27,360
Speaker 12: you're willing to put the work in and work together

2427
01:52:27,680 --> 01:52:30,160
Speaker 12: and figure out how to navigate the system and figure

2428
01:52:30,160 --> 01:52:32,519
Speaker 12: out where you can apply pressure, like, yeah, you can

2429
01:52:32,600 --> 01:52:35,120
Speaker 12: beat a bunch of people who have way way more

2430
01:52:35,120 --> 01:52:39,519
Speaker 12: resources than you do because they're usually just wrong.

2431
01:52:39,960 --> 01:52:40,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2432
01:52:40,640 --> 01:52:44,760
Speaker 16: Yeah, I want to actually really drive that point home

2433
01:52:44,960 --> 01:52:50,640
Speaker 16: that neither I or my co representative have experience in

2434
01:52:50,680 --> 01:52:53,080
Speaker 16: any sort of like legal fields. Neither of us are

2435
01:52:53,120 --> 01:52:56,400
Speaker 16: even lost students. We are just the people that decided

2436
01:52:56,439 --> 01:53:00,720
Speaker 16: to step up and take on this role. And I

2437
01:53:00,760 --> 01:53:04,759
Speaker 16: don't think that there is some like special unique quality

2438
01:53:04,800 --> 01:53:06,760
Speaker 16: about us that allowed us to do it. It was

2439
01:53:06,960 --> 01:53:10,080
Speaker 16: just putting in the work that was required. It's a

2440
01:53:10,479 --> 01:53:14,080
Speaker 16: scary thing, being asked to essentially represent yourself in a

2441
01:53:14,640 --> 01:53:18,880
Speaker 16: legal setting, and I think it's a testament to how

2442
01:53:19,080 --> 01:53:23,920
Speaker 16: people are capable of things that they're not necessarily trained

2443
01:53:23,960 --> 01:53:28,559
Speaker 16: to do, and that this whole process of unionization does

2444
01:53:28,600 --> 01:53:32,679
Speaker 16: not necessarily require the vast resources that you might think

2445
01:53:32,680 --> 01:53:39,040
Speaker 16: it entails. It requires some planning, it requires some tactics,

2446
01:53:39,120 --> 01:53:41,559
Speaker 16: but it is something that everyone is able to do.

2447
01:53:42,479 --> 01:53:45,200
Speaker 12: Hell yeah, I guess if I was really on my

2448
01:53:45,240 --> 01:53:47,920
Speaker 12: game here, I would have something about like the concept

2449
01:53:47,960 --> 01:53:50,040
Speaker 12: of the organic intellectual, et cetera, et cetera. But I

2450
01:53:50,080 --> 01:53:53,519
Speaker 12: don't even think that's really what's going on here. It's

2451
01:53:53,600 --> 01:53:56,439
Speaker 12: just like, in the same way that like economics is

2452
01:53:56,479 --> 01:53:59,479
Speaker 12: designed to be esoteric, and you know, like finance is

2453
01:53:59,479 --> 01:54:03,599
Speaker 12: designed to be difficult to understand. But in the immortal

2454
01:54:03,600 --> 01:54:06,080
Speaker 12: words of Dan Elson, there are plenty of c students

2455
01:54:06,080 --> 01:54:10,840
Speaker 12: who've gotten economics degrees, like you can understand this. It's

2456
01:54:10,960 --> 01:54:13,120
Speaker 12: just it just takes some work, and it takes some

2457
01:54:14,040 --> 01:54:17,519
Speaker 12: dedication to fighting together, and it takes yeah, people working together.

2458
01:54:17,520 --> 01:54:20,320
Speaker 12: But these people are not smarter than you. They're all

2459
01:54:20,360 --> 01:54:23,640
Speaker 12: better than you. They have more money, but that's ultimately

2460
01:54:23,720 --> 01:54:25,719
Speaker 12: not the fact that it decides everything.

2461
01:54:26,320 --> 01:54:29,280
Speaker 16: And I don't want to discount the amount of support

2462
01:54:29,360 --> 01:54:33,280
Speaker 16: that we received from the rest of our coworkers as well. Yeah,

2463
01:54:33,320 --> 01:54:36,640
Speaker 16: this was truly a group effort, and everyone helped out

2464
01:54:36,640 --> 01:54:39,520
Speaker 16: in their own small ways, whether it was helping take

2465
01:54:39,560 --> 01:54:42,440
Speaker 16: care of social media posts, whether it was helping cook

2466
01:54:42,520 --> 01:54:46,160
Speaker 16: for us, host meeting locations. I've been dealing with a

2467
01:54:46,200 --> 01:54:49,400
Speaker 16: pest problem at my apartment, so I've been unable to

2468
01:54:49,440 --> 01:54:51,600
Speaker 16: for about the amount of time that all this legal

2469
01:54:51,680 --> 01:54:53,640
Speaker 16: process has been going on, So I haven't been able

2470
01:54:53,680 --> 01:54:57,840
Speaker 16: to host pollocks anymore, and a former coworker of ours

2471
01:54:58,000 --> 01:55:01,720
Speaker 16: has been hosting instead and putting in the work for that.

2472
01:55:03,240 --> 01:55:06,440
Speaker 16: It really is something that works when everyone comes together

2473
01:55:06,560 --> 01:55:08,200
Speaker 16: and takes part in the process.

2474
01:55:08,840 --> 01:55:12,120
Speaker 12: Hell yeah, So speaking of everyone coming together and helping

2475
01:55:12,120 --> 01:55:14,600
Speaker 12: to work for the process, if people want to help

2476
01:55:14,640 --> 01:55:15,560
Speaker 12: you all, what can they do.

2477
01:55:16,400 --> 01:55:20,640
Speaker 16: We are looking actually at a bit of a financial

2478
01:55:20,840 --> 01:55:24,840
Speaker 16: struggle right now. The biggest thing is that we don't

2479
01:55:24,840 --> 01:55:27,360
Speaker 16: have enough the funds at the moment to go on strike,

2480
01:55:27,520 --> 01:55:31,360
Speaker 16: not for any significant duration at least. Yeah, we have

2481
01:55:31,440 --> 01:55:33,640
Speaker 16: a go fundme Mojie Workers United.

2482
01:55:33,800 --> 01:55:35,560
Speaker 12: Yeah, we will put that in the description.

2483
01:55:36,320 --> 01:55:39,080
Speaker 16: The other thing is that we are looking for a

2484
01:55:39,120 --> 01:55:42,640
Speaker 16: lot of social media support. Actually, Mushi is a very

2485
01:55:42,680 --> 01:55:45,720
Speaker 16: media driven company and we are trying to set up

2486
01:55:45,720 --> 01:55:49,520
Speaker 16: an Instagram account that has a lot of visibility. You

2487
01:55:49,560 --> 01:55:53,760
Speaker 16: can follow us also Moodie Workers United on Instagram. And

2488
01:55:54,160 --> 01:55:57,560
Speaker 16: it seems like people have been sharing our articles and

2489
01:55:58,080 --> 01:56:01,680
Speaker 16: across the internet, both the WLP article about us and

2490
01:56:01,720 --> 01:56:05,760
Speaker 16: then now you're interviewing us, which is an enormous help

2491
01:56:05,840 --> 01:56:07,440
Speaker 16: to trust.

2492
01:56:07,520 --> 01:56:07,720
Speaker 8: Mia.

2493
01:56:07,800 --> 01:56:09,720
Speaker 16: Thank you. We super appreciate it.

2494
01:56:09,800 --> 01:56:11,960
Speaker 17: Yeah, thank you so much, of course.

2495
01:56:12,120 --> 01:56:12,440
Speaker 12: Happy.

2496
01:56:13,200 --> 01:56:15,680
Speaker 16: I don't know if you have anything to add to that, Renee.

2497
01:56:15,680 --> 01:56:19,760
Speaker 17: Yeah, just the Instagram. We have lots of very talented

2498
01:56:19,840 --> 01:56:26,080
Speaker 17: artists working Muji like everyone. It's great graphic designers, a

2499
01:56:26,120 --> 01:56:30,840
Speaker 17: lot of just very fun and cool people. So yeah,

2500
01:56:31,400 --> 01:56:34,360
Speaker 17: I'm sure that will be expressed in our future social

2501
01:56:34,400 --> 01:56:37,000
Speaker 17: media posts. Yeah.

2502
01:56:37,120 --> 01:56:38,920
Speaker 12: Hell yeah, what we'll link that description too.

2503
01:56:39,280 --> 01:56:40,240
Speaker 16: Awesome, thank you Mia.

2504
01:56:40,960 --> 01:56:41,160
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2505
01:56:41,280 --> 01:56:44,080
Speaker 12: On a one final thing, you want to plug direct action?

2506
01:56:44,960 --> 01:56:45,640
Speaker 2: Yes, I do.

2507
01:56:46,040 --> 01:56:46,160
Speaker 7: So.

2508
01:56:47,400 --> 01:56:49,520
Speaker 16: We've had We've spent a lot of time talking about

2509
01:56:49,560 --> 01:56:52,800
Speaker 16: the legal side of unionization because our union is currently

2510
01:56:53,000 --> 01:56:57,200
Speaker 16: seeking federal recognition with the NLRB. I want to emphasize

2511
01:56:57,240 --> 01:57:00,720
Speaker 16: that this is not the end of unions. The goal

2512
01:57:00,800 --> 01:57:03,600
Speaker 16: is not a contract. The goal is to use direct

2513
01:57:03,640 --> 01:57:05,920
Speaker 16: action to enact the changes that you want to see

2514
01:57:05,920 --> 01:57:09,520
Speaker 16: in your workplace. For what are probably obvious reasons, I

2515
01:57:09,520 --> 01:57:11,960
Speaker 16: don't want to talk about specifically stuff that we have

2516
01:57:12,080 --> 01:57:14,520
Speaker 16: planned or maybe not even stuff that we've done in

2517
01:57:14,560 --> 01:57:17,040
Speaker 16: the past. But for example, one thing that I can

2518
01:57:17,160 --> 01:57:19,520
Speaker 16: talk about is that we have an ice response plan,

2519
01:57:19,800 --> 01:57:21,560
Speaker 16: Like what do we do if I shows up at

2520
01:57:21,600 --> 01:57:25,160
Speaker 16: a workplace and tries to tries to raid us. We

2521
01:57:25,240 --> 01:57:28,640
Speaker 16: have a plan for that. And I obviously don't want

2522
01:57:28,640 --> 01:57:30,320
Speaker 16: to go further into detail about that, but that is

2523
01:57:30,360 --> 01:57:32,480
Speaker 16: something that we did as an example of a direct action.

2524
01:57:33,160 --> 01:57:36,360
Speaker 16: There's also other stuff. There's lots of historical examples of

2525
01:57:36,440 --> 01:57:41,400
Speaker 16: workers getting gains in their workplace. You have examples of

2526
01:57:41,680 --> 01:57:44,400
Speaker 16: stuff like just a simple march on the boss has

2527
01:57:44,520 --> 01:57:48,560
Speaker 16: historically worked to sway the boss even without necessarily a

2528
01:57:48,720 --> 01:57:52,400
Speaker 16: change in the contract. Or you can have stuff that's

2529
01:57:52,440 --> 01:57:55,960
Speaker 16: all very legal on above board obviously, of people like

2530
01:57:56,600 --> 01:57:59,600
Speaker 16: just agreeing to not be as friendly with their boss

2531
01:58:00,040 --> 01:58:02,800
Speaker 16: at work and an emotionally sway their boss that way,

2532
01:58:03,200 --> 01:58:05,760
Speaker 16: or having smaller outside of work actions where people are

2533
01:58:05,760 --> 01:58:08,960
Speaker 16: helping each other out and having a workplace mutual aid project,

2534
01:58:09,360 --> 01:58:12,600
Speaker 16: or even something as simple as implementing like a workplace

2535
01:58:12,640 --> 01:58:15,280
Speaker 16: fitness plan. That's something that we've discussed a couple of

2536
01:58:15,280 --> 01:58:18,560
Speaker 16: times at meetings, very loosely, like just going on hikes together,

2537
01:58:18,760 --> 01:58:21,680
Speaker 16: or having like the community sports and stuff just to

2538
01:58:21,760 --> 01:58:24,040
Speaker 16: keep each other in shape and keep our communities healthy.

2539
01:58:24,680 --> 01:58:27,720
Speaker 16: All of this stuff is stuff that exists beyond the contract.

2540
01:58:28,040 --> 01:58:30,800
Speaker 16: We're currently emphasizing the contract because that's what we are

2541
01:58:31,000 --> 01:58:34,400
Speaker 16: at the moment seeking, because the contract helps this feel

2542
01:58:34,400 --> 01:58:36,760
Speaker 16: more real for people who aren't quite on board with

2543
01:58:36,800 --> 01:58:41,840
Speaker 16: the idea of humanization yet. But unionization at a workplace

2544
01:58:42,560 --> 01:58:48,040
Speaker 16: gets you much more than just a better contract with

2545
01:58:48,120 --> 01:58:51,600
Speaker 16: your employer. And you can enact changes at your workplace

2546
01:58:51,720 --> 01:58:56,080
Speaker 16: faster if you work together with your coworkers and organize

2547
01:58:56,080 --> 01:58:59,960
Speaker 16: your coworkers. Hell yeah, anything to add renee.

2548
01:59:00,120 --> 01:59:05,160
Speaker 17: And the union is very aware, you know, regarding their

2549
01:59:05,840 --> 01:59:11,240
Speaker 17: respective capacities to help what they can, you know, and

2550
01:59:11,320 --> 01:59:16,400
Speaker 17: cannot do their limits. And I think just after you know,

2551
01:59:16,640 --> 01:59:21,480
Speaker 17: working together enough, everything marries in a very effective way.

2552
01:59:21,840 --> 01:59:25,760
Speaker 17: And and yeah, even just like like all of these

2553
01:59:26,000 --> 01:59:28,640
Speaker 17: sort of direct actions that that Luna was naming are

2554
01:59:29,760 --> 01:59:33,200
Speaker 17: just came out of our meetings, just ideas that people

2555
01:59:33,240 --> 01:59:36,440
Speaker 17: think might be fun to do, or or you know,

2556
01:59:36,640 --> 01:59:39,600
Speaker 17: people sharing their hobbies and and want to share them

2557
01:59:39,640 --> 01:59:44,000
Speaker 17: with other people. Yeah, and so yeah, it really is

2558
01:59:44,080 --> 01:59:48,080
Speaker 17: just sort of a fun hangout. I don't want to

2559
01:59:48,080 --> 01:59:52,640
Speaker 17: trivialize it. But but it's like, you know, extreme hang

2560
01:59:52,800 --> 01:59:53,360
Speaker 17: hanging out.

2561
01:59:54,880 --> 01:59:58,360
Speaker 12: It's well, yeah, I think it touches on something that's

2562
01:59:58,800 --> 02:00:01,560
Speaker 12: really important about all of this, which is, you know,

2563
02:00:01,640 --> 02:00:04,080
Speaker 12: people will in the abstract talk about unions as like

2564
02:00:04,120 --> 02:00:09,040
Speaker 12: social institutions, but like what that actually means is this, Like, yeah,

2565
02:00:09,080 --> 02:00:11,520
Speaker 12: it's a place where you and your friends and the

2566
02:00:11,560 --> 02:00:15,800
Speaker 12: people you work with go and do stuff together. And

2567
02:00:16,640 --> 02:00:18,760
Speaker 12: you know, I guess, I guess I want to wrap

2568
02:00:18,880 --> 02:00:21,520
Speaker 12: up on like, if you want a way out of

2569
02:00:21,560 --> 02:00:26,200
Speaker 12: the stultifying boredom and isolation and crushing poverty of the

2570
02:00:26,280 --> 02:00:31,840
Speaker 12: Wadern capitalist experience, you too can't create You can create

2571
02:00:31,880 --> 02:00:35,400
Speaker 12: a union and resist all of those things simultaneously.

2572
02:00:35,960 --> 02:00:52,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, welcome to It could happen here a show

2573
02:00:52,000 --> 02:00:55,360
Speaker 6: about things falling apart, the thing falling apart the past

2574
02:00:55,360 --> 02:00:59,000
Speaker 6: few years, the Democratic Party that's foot we're going to

2575
02:00:59,040 --> 02:01:03,960
Speaker 6: be talking about to I am joined by Sophie Ray Lichterman.

2576
02:01:05,000 --> 02:01:09,320
Speaker 1: Hello, Hi, I'm not excited about this.

2577
02:01:09,320 --> 02:01:11,880
Speaker 6: This is great. Last time we were on an episode together,

2578
02:01:12,000 --> 02:01:14,600
Speaker 6: we were talking about our two favorite Democrats, Bill and

2579
02:01:14,680 --> 02:01:16,280
Speaker 6: Hillary Clinton. Ah.

2580
02:01:16,400 --> 02:01:19,480
Speaker 10: Yes, they gave me COVID at the DNC. I'll never

2581
02:01:19,560 --> 02:01:21,160
Speaker 10: forgive them.

2582
02:01:20,600 --> 02:01:23,360
Speaker 6: Not talking about them today, but we are talking about

2583
02:01:23,520 --> 02:01:26,160
Speaker 6: the DNC. The other DNC, the one who puts on

2584
02:01:26,200 --> 02:01:29,640
Speaker 6: the DNC, the Democratic National Committee. So we're gonna be

2585
02:01:29,640 --> 02:01:35,320
Speaker 6: talking about the DNC autopsy. Oh boy. First, some background. Yes,

2586
02:01:35,960 --> 02:01:39,600
Speaker 6: after Democrats lost the House, the Senate, and the presidency

2587
02:01:39,720 --> 02:01:43,280
Speaker 6: in twenty twenty four, if I'm reading that correctly, including

2588
02:01:43,320 --> 02:01:45,480
Speaker 6: losing the popular vote, something that has not happened in

2589
02:01:45,560 --> 02:01:50,040
Speaker 6: twenty years. The Democratic National Committee, the DNC, wondered why

2590
02:01:50,080 --> 02:01:53,280
Speaker 6: did that happen? So the DNC commission to report on

2591
02:01:53,640 --> 02:01:56,480
Speaker 6: what happened with the twenty twenty four election, and this

2592
02:01:56,600 --> 02:01:59,520
Speaker 6: report came to be known as the twenty twenty four Autopsy.

2593
02:02:00,280 --> 02:02:04,240
Speaker 6: The newly elected DNC chair Ken Martin pledged to make

2594
02:02:04,320 --> 02:02:09,400
Speaker 6: the upcoming report public, announcing after his chair election quote,

2595
02:02:09,800 --> 02:02:12,440
Speaker 6: there has to be some lessons that we glean on

2596
02:02:12,600 --> 02:02:16,680
Speaker 6: that so we can operationalize it, not just here in DC,

2597
02:02:16,960 --> 02:02:20,240
Speaker 6: but through all the fifty seven state parties. We have

2598
02:02:20,320 --> 02:02:23,760
Speaker 6: to look backwards and look forward at the same time.

2599
02:02:24,960 --> 02:02:28,080
Speaker 6: The twenty twenty four election autopsy was commissioned in early

2600
02:02:28,160 --> 02:02:30,760
Speaker 6: twenty twenty five and was supposed to come out later

2601
02:02:30,840 --> 02:02:34,160
Speaker 6: that spring, but got pushed back to the end of summer,

2602
02:02:34,320 --> 02:02:38,040
Speaker 6: and then the fall, and finally, in December of twenty

2603
02:02:38,040 --> 02:02:42,000
Speaker 6: twenty five, Ken Martin announced that the DNC would not

2604
02:02:42,160 --> 02:02:46,280
Speaker 6: in fact be releasing the autopsy report. In Martin's brief

2605
02:02:46,280 --> 02:02:50,280
Speaker 6: statement explaining or rather not explaining why he's backpedaling on

2606
02:02:50,320 --> 02:02:52,720
Speaker 6: his promise to make the report public, he claimed that

2607
02:02:52,760 --> 02:02:56,680
Speaker 6: the committee is quote already putting our learnings into motion.

2608
02:02:57,240 --> 02:03:00,400
Speaker 10: Who votes Ken martin In to be the chair because

2609
02:03:00,440 --> 02:03:05,440
Speaker 10: I know his careerer is basically Minnesota guy, yes in

2610
02:03:05,480 --> 02:03:10,200
Speaker 10: turning government jobs, vice president chair, And then.

2611
02:03:10,400 --> 02:03:15,520
Speaker 6: Basically around four hundred members of state party chapters are

2612
02:03:15,680 --> 02:03:20,080
Speaker 6: chosen to be members of the Democratic National Committee, who

2613
02:03:20,120 --> 02:03:23,800
Speaker 6: then in turn vote on national party leadership and decide

2614
02:03:23,800 --> 02:03:27,200
Speaker 6: how primaries operate, though if a sitting president is a Democrat,

2615
02:03:27,640 --> 02:03:31,600
Speaker 6: the president can effectively choose the chair. Sn End reported

2616
02:03:31,800 --> 02:03:35,680
Speaker 6: that DNC officials had concerns that the report would quote

2617
02:03:36,080 --> 02:03:40,000
Speaker 6: inflame ongoing tensions within the party at a time they

2618
02:03:40,000 --> 02:03:44,640
Speaker 6: felt they had begun to generate winning momentum quote, and

2619
02:03:45,000 --> 02:03:48,000
Speaker 6: the committee officials decided that it would be a quote

2620
02:03:48,040 --> 02:03:51,040
Speaker 6: unquote strategic failure on the part of the DNC to

2621
02:03:51,200 --> 02:03:55,480
Speaker 6: publicly look backward. That was their reasons for not releasing

2622
02:03:55,520 --> 02:03:58,160
Speaker 6: the report. We're already winning elections in twenty twenty five,

2623
02:03:58,560 --> 02:04:00,680
Speaker 6: so there's actually no point in just looking back at

2624
02:04:00,720 --> 02:04:03,600
Speaker 6: why we lost to twenty twenty four. And this was

2625
02:04:03,600 --> 02:04:06,160
Speaker 6: alluded to in Ken Martin's statement announcing that he would

2626
02:04:06,160 --> 02:04:09,160
Speaker 6: not be releasing the report. Quote, we are aligned on

2627
02:04:09,200 --> 02:04:12,320
Speaker 6: what's important, and that's learning from the past and winning

2628
02:04:12,400 --> 02:04:16,000
Speaker 6: the future. Here's our north star. Does this help us win?

2629
02:04:16,440 --> 02:04:19,160
Speaker 6: If the answer is no, it's a distraction from the

2630
02:04:19,240 --> 02:04:22,720
Speaker 6: core mission. So the report would just be a distraction

2631
02:04:22,920 --> 02:04:26,080
Speaker 6: from letting us currently win going forward.

2632
02:04:26,480 --> 02:04:30,840
Speaker 1: For the DNC chair, that logic is ridiculous.

2633
02:04:31,320 --> 02:04:34,480
Speaker 6: No, because that's not the real reason why the report

2634
02:04:34,560 --> 02:04:37,600
Speaker 6: wasn't released. We will get to why the report wasn't

2635
02:04:38,360 --> 02:04:39,600
Speaker 6: okay very soon.

2636
02:04:39,840 --> 02:04:44,560
Speaker 10: That sounds like a majorly half assed reason, So okay,

2637
02:04:45,000 --> 02:04:45,920
Speaker 10: say more, say more.

2638
02:04:45,960 --> 02:04:46,480
Speaker 1: I'm listening.

2639
02:04:46,960 --> 02:04:50,400
Speaker 6: As the public release of the autopsy was continuously delayed

2640
02:04:50,400 --> 02:04:52,880
Speaker 6: in twenty twenty five and then just eventually canceled, the

2641
02:04:52,920 --> 02:04:56,440
Speaker 6: speculation about the contents of the report grew that the

2642
02:04:56,680 --> 02:05:00,520
Speaker 6: DNC must be hiding the report because it's f findings

2643
02:05:00,560 --> 02:05:03,000
Speaker 6: on why the Dems lost so bad in twenty twenty

2644
02:05:03,000 --> 02:05:06,360
Speaker 6: four must run contrary to the interests of party elites.

2645
02:05:07,240 --> 02:05:09,720
Speaker 6: So by burying the report, the DNC must be trying

2646
02:05:09,760 --> 02:05:13,959
Speaker 6: to protect the future political prospects of Kamala Harris, obscure

2647
02:05:14,000 --> 02:05:17,160
Speaker 6: the misuse of massive funds donated to the DNC and

2648
02:05:17,280 --> 02:05:22,680
Speaker 6: election campaigns. Or the report must actually definitively prove the

2649
02:05:22,720 --> 02:05:26,160
Speaker 6: Bidenhairs administration's failure to act on the genocide of Palestinians

2650
02:05:26,200 --> 02:05:28,680
Speaker 6: while aiding in a betting Israel must have played a

2651
02:05:28,720 --> 02:05:33,520
Speaker 6: significant factor in the election, possibly the determining factor. So

2652
02:05:33,680 --> 02:05:38,080
Speaker 6: if the report found such things, then the DNC might

2653
02:05:38,120 --> 02:05:41,560
Speaker 6: want to suppress the report to not have that information

2654
02:05:41,680 --> 02:05:46,360
Speaker 6: be public. But now we know that's not the reason

2655
02:05:46,680 --> 02:05:51,160
Speaker 6: the report was not released. The autopsy finding that the

2656
02:05:51,200 --> 02:05:54,120
Speaker 6: Democrats pro Israel position cost in the election was not

2657
02:05:54,160 --> 02:05:57,040
Speaker 6: the reason the report was buried, because last month the

2658
02:05:57,160 --> 02:06:01,880
Speaker 6: DNZ begrudgingly released and incomplete version of the election autopsy,

2659
02:06:02,360 --> 02:06:05,440
Speaker 6: which actually does not contain a single mention of Israel,

2660
02:06:05,680 --> 02:06:09,880
Speaker 6: Palestine or Gaza. It is not discussed in any way

2661
02:06:09,960 --> 02:06:12,760
Speaker 6: in a one hundred and ninety two page report.

2662
02:06:13,240 --> 02:06:16,400
Speaker 1: And what is in this report huh.

2663
02:06:16,600 --> 02:06:21,000
Speaker 6: We will also be getting into what's in the report. Okay, Yeah,

2664
02:06:21,080 --> 02:06:25,960
Speaker 6: a lot of bad statistics, for one, unsourced graphs and

2665
02:06:26,440 --> 02:06:30,640
Speaker 6: discussions on whether you should spend more money on digital

2666
02:06:30,680 --> 02:06:33,960
Speaker 6: ads or TV ads is really really the bulk of

2667
02:06:34,000 --> 02:06:38,560
Speaker 6: the report, honestly. But before we get more into the

2668
02:06:38,640 --> 02:06:43,560
Speaker 6: report's findings, let's discuss the circumstances that led to the

2669
02:06:43,640 --> 02:06:47,360
Speaker 6: publishing of the unfinished autopsy and nearly a year after

2670
02:06:47,400 --> 02:06:50,280
Speaker 6: the finished version was supposed to come out. So this

2671
02:06:50,320 --> 02:06:53,920
Speaker 6: autopsy was authored by a guy named Paul Rivieria. There's

2672
02:06:54,000 --> 02:06:57,960
Speaker 6: a long time Democratic strategist and personal friend of DNC

2673
02:06:58,160 --> 02:07:02,879
Speaker 6: chair Ken Martin. Vira has not worked on a presidential

2674
02:07:02,920 --> 02:07:04,720
Speaker 6: campaign since two thousand and four.

2675
02:07:05,080 --> 02:07:05,680
Speaker 1: Oh wow.

2676
02:07:05,960 --> 02:07:09,280
Speaker 6: And despite being the sole person like tasked with running

2677
02:07:09,280 --> 02:07:12,360
Speaker 6: the report, and it's unclear how many people actually worked

2678
02:07:12,400 --> 02:07:14,120
Speaker 6: on it, but it was led by Riviera and it

2679
02:07:14,120 --> 02:07:17,160
Speaker 6: seems to be mostly be done by him. And despite that,

2680
02:07:17,440 --> 02:07:20,720
Speaker 6: Riviera only worked on it haart time while managing other

2681
02:07:20,800 --> 02:07:24,640
Speaker 6: contracts with sen and reporting that Riviera would say that

2682
02:07:24,720 --> 02:07:29,080
Speaker 6: he would only be available to conduct autopsy interviews before

2683
02:07:29,440 --> 02:07:34,880
Speaker 6: nine am or after seven pm or on weekends. That's

2684
02:07:34,920 --> 02:07:38,520
Speaker 6: when he conducted interviews for the report. Was only before

2685
02:07:38,760 --> 02:07:41,640
Speaker 6: nine am in the morning or after seven pm in

2686
02:07:41,680 --> 02:07:44,960
Speaker 6: the evening on week days and then also weekends.

2687
02:07:45,480 --> 02:07:47,240
Speaker 1: Was this weird or doing? What was his problem?

2688
02:07:48,120 --> 02:07:52,880
Speaker 6: Not much? Yeah? Apparently not much, sir, because yeah, this

2689
02:07:52,960 --> 02:07:58,800
Speaker 6: report was like delayed almost a full year. Yeah seesh. Now,

2690
02:07:58,920 --> 02:08:03,960
Speaker 6: only after his initial Spring twenty twenty five deadline did

2691
02:08:04,040 --> 02:08:07,640
Speaker 6: Rivera actually reach out to state party chairs in battleground

2692
02:08:07,640 --> 02:08:11,240
Speaker 6: states to interview them for the report, and he did

2693
02:08:11,240 --> 02:08:17,440
Speaker 6: not contact like T. Harris campaign staff until September, and

2694
02:08:17,480 --> 02:08:20,680
Speaker 6: many were not even asked to be interviewed. Portions of

2695
02:08:20,720 --> 02:08:25,839
Speaker 6: the autopsy were first revealed at a DNC National Finance

2696
02:08:25,920 --> 02:08:30,680
Speaker 6: Committee retreat for top donors held at a hotel in Millburg, Virginia,

2697
02:08:30,760 --> 02:08:35,440
Speaker 6: last October Percy and n At the donor retreat, Riviera

2698
02:08:35,520 --> 02:08:39,760
Speaker 6: himself gave a quote our long presentation with slides in

2699
02:08:39,840 --> 02:08:44,600
Speaker 6: part drawn directly from the report, in part via running

2700
02:08:44,640 --> 02:08:49,600
Speaker 6: his findings through an AI engine. Unquote, there was AI

2701
02:08:49,720 --> 02:08:53,920
Speaker 6: generated slides. He ran his report findings through an AI engine,

2702
02:08:53,960 --> 02:08:57,240
Speaker 6: according to CNN, which also generated slides, and that was

2703
02:08:57,280 --> 02:09:01,080
Speaker 6: what his presentation on the report at the donor retreat

2704
02:09:02,120 --> 02:09:07,160
Speaker 6: was based on. Was that the AI's regurgitation of report findings.

2705
02:09:07,640 --> 02:09:08,960
Speaker 1: Hold on, Hold on a second.

2706
02:09:09,040 --> 02:09:12,080
Speaker 10: So he's not willing to do work after nine am

2707
02:09:12,600 --> 02:09:13,760
Speaker 10: or after seven pm?

2708
02:09:13,920 --> 02:09:15,160
Speaker 6: Conduct please in that time.

2709
02:09:15,240 --> 02:09:16,840
Speaker 1: No, can't do any of that time.

2710
02:09:16,840 --> 02:09:21,680
Speaker 10: But yet he's just like using AI Yeah, great, DNC,

2711
02:09:21,960 --> 02:09:23,160
Speaker 10: feeling really hopeful.

2712
02:09:23,320 --> 02:09:25,400
Speaker 1: Continue, what did CNN find?

2713
02:09:26,080 --> 02:09:29,400
Speaker 6: So One of the slides that Riviera presented at this

2714
02:09:29,600 --> 02:09:33,880
Speaker 6: at this donor retreat attract the candidate's quote unquote area

2715
02:09:33,960 --> 02:09:38,120
Speaker 6: of focus by quote unquote content slash theme see an

2716
02:09:38,160 --> 02:09:42,760
Speaker 6: end notes quote. Riviera used an unclear methodology for the breakdown,

2717
02:09:43,080 --> 02:09:47,760
Speaker 6: assigning percentages to ten categories of content or theme. For Trump, Harris,

2718
02:09:47,800 --> 02:09:51,840
Speaker 6: and their running mates. The percentages in every column one

2719
02:09:51,840 --> 02:09:55,520
Speaker 6: for each candidate added up to well over one hundred percent.

2720
02:09:57,440 --> 02:09:59,320
Speaker 6: What he was trying to do here is like measure

2721
02:09:59,440 --> 02:10:02,480
Speaker 6: campaign themes, like you know, how much Trump focused on

2722
02:10:02,520 --> 02:10:05,040
Speaker 6: immigration compared to Harris. Right, So he had these like

2723
02:10:05,080 --> 02:10:07,400
Speaker 6: ten categories of like what the campaigns were focused on.

2724
02:10:08,080 --> 02:10:11,080
Speaker 6: But the percentages did not actually add up to one

2725
02:10:11,160 --> 02:10:11,839
Speaker 6: hundred percent.

2726
02:10:12,040 --> 02:10:12,880
Speaker 1: Of course they didn't.

2727
02:10:13,040 --> 02:10:15,080
Speaker 6: So he's just like making this stuff up, right, like

2728
02:10:15,120 --> 02:10:18,080
Speaker 6: it's it's again. They know. There's like an unclear methodology

2729
02:10:18,120 --> 02:10:20,280
Speaker 6: for the breakdown the fact these add up to over

2730
02:10:20,280 --> 02:10:22,560
Speaker 6: one hundred percent, Like, you cannot trust the legitimacy of

2731
02:10:22,560 --> 02:10:26,080
Speaker 6: any of this research now, So, after parts of the

2732
02:10:26,080 --> 02:10:29,400
Speaker 6: presentation were leaked to CNN, Scenan then obtained even more

2733
02:10:29,440 --> 02:10:33,640
Speaker 6: information about the contents of the shelved autopsy. Before publishing

2734
02:10:33,640 --> 02:10:37,480
Speaker 6: their findings, Scenan presented the DNC with what they knew

2735
02:10:37,520 --> 02:10:41,000
Speaker 6: about the report, prompting the DNC to just release the

2736
02:10:41,000 --> 02:10:44,880
Speaker 6: full report as submitted by Paul Riveria. And around this time,

2737
02:10:44,960 --> 02:10:48,280
Speaker 6: donors were also threatening to withhold funds for not publishing

2738
02:10:48,320 --> 02:10:52,720
Speaker 6: the report, so that probably also contributed. One of CNN's

2739
02:10:52,840 --> 02:10:57,720
Speaker 6: sources said that after the autopsy was published, Ken Martin

2740
02:10:57,880 --> 02:11:02,080
Speaker 6: informed DNC staff that Paul Via was no longer associated

2741
02:11:02,160 --> 02:11:03,120
Speaker 6: with the committee.

2742
02:11:03,640 --> 02:11:05,879
Speaker 1: These people, these fucking people.

2743
02:11:06,760 --> 02:11:10,080
Speaker 10: I mean, I did not read the entire report intentionally

2744
02:11:10,120 --> 02:11:11,840
Speaker 10: so that you could tell me about it. But the

2745
02:11:11,920 --> 02:11:15,360
Speaker 10: highlights that have been spread across the internet is did

2746
02:11:15,360 --> 02:11:19,240
Speaker 10: not mention Gaza, did not mention Joe Biden's age, and

2747
02:11:19,320 --> 02:11:23,200
Speaker 10: did not mention when Joe Biden dropped out late effectively.

2748
02:11:23,240 --> 02:11:25,240
Speaker 6: So well, we'll get into some of some of those

2749
02:11:25,320 --> 02:11:27,080
Speaker 6: in a little bit more detail. I think. One of

2750
02:11:27,160 --> 02:11:29,840
Speaker 6: the most interesting parts about the DNC's publishing of the

2751
02:11:29,920 --> 02:11:33,720
Speaker 6: unfinished report is that the published version of the autopsy

2752
02:11:34,160 --> 02:11:39,000
Speaker 6: contains annotations and corrections marked and read that the DNC

2753
02:11:39,200 --> 02:11:43,600
Speaker 6: added to the copy of the report as submitted by Riviera,

2754
02:11:43,920 --> 02:11:47,520
Speaker 6: and these were added for its public release. Okay, At

2755
02:11:47,560 --> 02:11:49,800
Speaker 6: the top of every single page, all one hundred and

2756
02:11:49,840 --> 02:11:54,680
Speaker 6: ninety two pages, reads a disclaimer quote disclaimer. This document

2757
02:11:54,760 --> 02:11:57,520
Speaker 6: reflects the views of the author, not the DNC. The

2758
02:11:57,600 --> 02:12:01,320
Speaker 6: DNC was not provided with the underlying source, interviews, or

2759
02:12:01,360 --> 02:12:05,160
Speaker 6: supporting data for many of the assertions contained herein, and

2760
02:12:05,240 --> 02:12:10,680
Speaker 6: therefore cannot independently verify the claims presented unquote that is

2761
02:12:10,720 --> 02:12:13,920
Speaker 6: in read at the top of every single page. Ken

2762
02:12:13,960 --> 02:12:17,760
Speaker 6: Martin did issue a statement when the autopsy was published,

2763
02:12:18,200 --> 02:12:21,920
Speaker 6: reading quote. When I was elected DNC chair, I commissioned

2764
02:12:21,920 --> 02:12:24,440
Speaker 6: in after action review of the twenty twenty four election

2765
02:12:24,880 --> 02:12:27,720
Speaker 6: that I wanted to be honest and transparent and with

2766
02:12:27,880 --> 02:12:31,120
Speaker 6: actionable and specific takeaways for the future of the Democratic Party.

2767
02:12:31,480 --> 02:12:34,640
Speaker 6: When I received the report late last year, it wasn't

2768
02:12:34,680 --> 02:12:38,280
Speaker 6: ready for prime time, not even close, and because no

2769
02:12:38,400 --> 02:12:41,840
Speaker 6: source material was provided, it would have meant starting over

2770
02:12:42,400 --> 02:12:44,720
Speaker 6: I could not in good faith put the DNC's stamp

2771
02:12:44,760 --> 02:12:48,600
Speaker 6: of approval on the report that was produced after last

2772
02:12:48,640 --> 02:12:52,400
Speaker 6: November's massive Democratic wins. I didn't want to create a distraction,

2773
02:12:53,000 --> 02:12:55,200
Speaker 6: but by not putting the report out, I ended up

2774
02:12:55,240 --> 02:12:58,480
Speaker 6: creating an even bigger distraction. For that, I sincerely apologize

2775
02:12:58,520 --> 02:13:01,040
Speaker 6: for full transparency. I am release sing the report as

2776
02:13:01,080 --> 02:13:05,200
Speaker 6: we received it in its entirety, unedited and unabridged. It

2777
02:13:05,240 --> 02:13:08,080
Speaker 6: does not meet my standards and it won't meet your standards.

2778
02:13:08,360 --> 02:13:10,840
Speaker 6: But I'm doing this because people need to be able

2779
02:13:10,880 --> 02:13:14,560
Speaker 6: to trust the Democratic Party and trust our word unquote.

2780
02:13:15,360 --> 02:13:19,280
Speaker 10: I don't know, man, that doesn't really sound very trustworthy. Brouh,

2781
02:13:19,440 --> 02:13:20,280
Speaker 10: sounds pretty bad.

2782
02:13:20,520 --> 02:13:22,720
Speaker 1: Sounds pretty bad. Here's a half asked report.

2783
02:13:23,400 --> 02:13:27,280
Speaker 10: It's not very good, and I've delayed it for over

2784
02:13:27,320 --> 02:13:29,000
Speaker 10: a year, but yeah, I.

2785
02:13:29,640 --> 02:13:32,320
Speaker 1: Guess here it is. No, it doesn't include any of

2786
02:13:32,360 --> 02:13:34,320
Speaker 1: the big issue things. Enjoy.

2787
02:13:34,920 --> 02:13:38,080
Speaker 6: It's a stunning sequence of events that kind of highlights

2788
02:13:38,120 --> 02:13:40,520
Speaker 6: all of the issues that everyone already has with it

2789
02:13:40,520 --> 02:13:43,880
Speaker 6: with the Democratic Party. Like the guy who was chosen

2790
02:13:43,960 --> 02:13:47,200
Speaker 6: to do the autopsy just happens to be a personal

2791
02:13:47,280 --> 02:13:51,160
Speaker 6: friend of the DNC chair, and said friend then fails

2792
02:13:51,200 --> 02:13:55,080
Speaker 6: to interrogate the institutional bias of the party. It is

2793
02:13:55,120 --> 02:13:58,720
Speaker 6: such a condensed, condensed, little version of why the party

2794
02:13:58,840 --> 02:14:01,600
Speaker 6: has had so many, so many troubles, and the report

2795
02:14:01,600 --> 02:14:04,240
Speaker 6: has published seems unwilling to actually be able to learn

2796
02:14:04,280 --> 02:14:07,280
Speaker 6: from successes that have been happening since the twenty twenty

2797
02:14:07,320 --> 02:14:11,920
Speaker 6: four election. Effectively, what the support actually is is a

2798
02:14:12,120 --> 02:14:17,480
Speaker 6: poorly sourced opinion piece that's dressed up as an election autopsy.

2799
02:14:18,200 --> 02:14:22,640
Speaker 6: It misspells names, it has typos, factual and statistical errors,

2800
02:14:22,680 --> 02:14:27,200
Speaker 6: and unsourced claims. Multiple key sections are left completely blank

2801
02:14:27,560 --> 02:14:31,320
Speaker 6: because Riviera never submitted them. The report is less interested

2802
02:14:31,400 --> 02:14:35,640
Speaker 6: in collecting data and interviews to inform analysis, but rather

2803
02:14:35,800 --> 02:14:38,520
Speaker 6: starts with certain assumptions and then cherry picks data to

2804
02:14:38,520 --> 02:14:42,040
Speaker 6: support this assumptions. But it doesn't even do that well

2805
02:14:42,280 --> 02:14:46,080
Speaker 6: because the included data is often inaccurate, and at times

2806
02:14:46,120 --> 02:14:50,760
Speaker 6: the analysis contradicts itself. Jesus Christ, a state party chair,

2807
02:14:50,920 --> 02:14:54,920
Speaker 6: told CNN quote it was very clear that it felt

2808
02:14:54,960 --> 02:14:57,600
Speaker 6: like Ken's theory of the case for the future of

2809
02:14:57,640 --> 02:15:00,680
Speaker 6: the party through the lens of twenty twenty four as

2810
02:15:00,720 --> 02:15:04,760
Speaker 6: opposed to a quote unquote autopsy, and after reading the report,

2811
02:15:05,080 --> 02:15:08,040
Speaker 6: I agree this is very much a report that's designed

2812
02:15:08,040 --> 02:15:11,320
Speaker 6: to fit in with what Ken Martin wants the message

2813
02:15:11,520 --> 02:15:15,160
Speaker 6: of the last election to be, and it tries to

2814
02:15:15,200 --> 02:15:20,400
Speaker 6: squeeze that into these like very rough shape of like

2815
02:15:20,520 --> 02:15:24,200
Speaker 6: an after election report, but it's really not.

2816
02:15:24,920 --> 02:15:28,160
Speaker 1: It's just like reeks of like lazy AI work.

2817
02:15:28,400 --> 02:15:29,240
Speaker 6: But all the like.

2818
02:15:29,320 --> 02:15:32,360
Speaker 10: Left out sections that the things that don't add up,

2819
02:15:32,800 --> 02:15:34,640
Speaker 10: the misspellings.

2820
02:15:34,000 --> 02:15:39,440
Speaker 6: Specifically the statistical and like factual errors, yeah, are really confusing,

2821
02:15:39,440 --> 02:15:42,120
Speaker 6: and it feels like someone's getting if not the actual writing,

2822
02:15:42,200 --> 02:15:44,560
Speaker 6: but it feels like the research was like AI assistant

2823
02:15:44,600 --> 02:15:46,200
Speaker 6: and in the way that you know AIS will shoot

2824
02:15:46,200 --> 02:15:49,360
Speaker 6: out different answers for the same question. Sure, so it

2825
02:15:49,680 --> 02:15:52,800
Speaker 6: feels like that in a few areas, and like like

2826
02:15:52,840 --> 02:15:55,120
Speaker 6: you've already mentioned, right, the report never brings up Biden's

2827
02:15:55,160 --> 02:15:58,480
Speaker 6: age or mental state as a factor contributing to the election.

2828
02:15:58,840 --> 02:16:03,400
Speaker 6: And inasmuch as the criticizes Biden, it critiques the Biden

2829
02:16:03,440 --> 02:16:08,840
Speaker 6: administration's failure to adequately prepare Harris to be a viable candidate.

2830
02:16:09,320 --> 02:16:11,680
Speaker 6: Does it discuss the debate?

2831
02:16:12,120 --> 02:16:15,280
Speaker 10: No, it doesn't bring up the debate where now we

2832
02:16:15,360 --> 02:16:18,240
Speaker 10: know that like from an interview from doctor Joe Biden

2833
02:16:18,600 --> 02:16:21,800
Speaker 10: from a few weeks ago that she legitimately thought that

2834
02:16:21,880 --> 02:16:24,840
Speaker 10: Joe was having a stroke on stage during that debate

2835
02:16:24,880 --> 02:16:26,080
Speaker 10: with Donald Trump.

2836
02:16:26,160 --> 02:16:27,960
Speaker 6: Even though she took him on to a different stage

2837
02:16:27,960 --> 02:16:30,240
Speaker 6: afterwards to tell him how good he did. And then

2838
02:16:30,320 --> 02:16:34,400
Speaker 6: they went to a waffle house. I mean, the things

2839
02:16:34,520 --> 02:16:39,039
Speaker 6: your due. You after you believe your husband has had

2840
02:16:39,040 --> 02:16:39,800
Speaker 6: a stroke.

2841
02:16:39,680 --> 02:16:42,200
Speaker 10: When shit has hit the fan, Garrett, you go to

2842
02:16:42,320 --> 02:16:43,080
Speaker 10: waffle house.

2843
02:16:43,160 --> 02:16:45,640
Speaker 6: Maybe maybe the waffle house actually is the move.

2844
02:16:46,160 --> 02:16:48,640
Speaker 10: I'm saying the waffle house is the least shocking of

2845
02:16:48,680 --> 02:16:49,800
Speaker 10: the entire situation.

2846
02:16:50,560 --> 02:16:52,760
Speaker 1: But that's not mentioned in there at all.

2847
02:16:53,480 --> 02:16:57,400
Speaker 6: No, it says, quote, the White House did not effectively

2848
02:16:57,480 --> 02:17:00,480
Speaker 6: support Vice President Harris over three and a half years

2849
02:17:00,680 --> 02:17:05,800
Speaker 6: to improve her standing before the candidates switch unquote. That's

2850
02:17:05,879 --> 02:17:09,440
Speaker 6: all it says about about switching from Biden to Harris.

2851
02:17:09,720 --> 02:17:10,800
Speaker 6: That's all it says.

2852
02:17:11,240 --> 02:17:14,200
Speaker 10: I don't I don't disagree with that statement, because you

2853
02:17:14,240 --> 02:17:17,040
Speaker 10: know the amount of people that we spoke to when

2854
02:17:17,080 --> 02:17:19,720
Speaker 10: we went to both political conventions. One of the common

2855
02:17:19,760 --> 02:17:23,160
Speaker 10: things that they said about Kamala Harris is like how

2856
02:17:23,520 --> 02:17:26,039
Speaker 10: ineffective she spent and how they don't use her and

2857
02:17:26,080 --> 02:17:28,360
Speaker 10: how can we trust her when they don't even trust

2858
02:17:28,400 --> 02:17:31,160
Speaker 10: her to do basic things for the administration, which was

2859
02:17:31,360 --> 02:17:34,920
Speaker 10: one of the main Republican talking points about her, is

2860
02:17:34,959 --> 02:17:39,039
Speaker 10: like she has no skills, which is not true, but

2861
02:17:39,480 --> 02:17:43,360
Speaker 10: that was a position that was against her. Is not

2862
02:17:43,560 --> 02:17:47,199
Speaker 10: utilizing her enough? And then you know they're like, bibbity

2863
02:17:47,280 --> 02:17:51,400
Speaker 10: bobby boo, she's your candidate without a primary. Do they

2864
02:17:51,440 --> 02:17:53,720
Speaker 10: mention anything about their not being a primary?

2865
02:17:54,160 --> 02:17:55,000
Speaker 8: No, okay.

2866
02:17:55,840 --> 02:17:59,240
Speaker 6: The port never interrogets her, considers Biden's decision to run

2867
02:17:59,280 --> 02:18:02,320
Speaker 6: for reelection, or lay blame on those who encouraged and

2868
02:18:02,400 --> 02:18:05,280
Speaker 6: enabled that decision, nor does it identify the lack of

2869
02:18:05,280 --> 02:18:08,640
Speaker 6: a legitimate primary as a contributing factor leading to the

2870
02:18:08,640 --> 02:18:10,199
Speaker 6: results of the twenty twenty four election.

2871
02:18:10,840 --> 02:18:12,119
Speaker 8: We're going to take a quick.

2872
02:18:11,920 --> 02:18:16,879
Speaker 10: Break while I have, you know, an attack of my mind,

2873
02:18:18,640 --> 02:18:38,560
Speaker 10: your ads.

2874
02:18:30,360 --> 02:18:31,720
Speaker 1: And we're bad.

2875
02:18:35,320 --> 02:18:41,040
Speaker 6: Let's now pivot to how the report describes its own

2876
02:18:41,280 --> 02:18:45,080
Speaker 6: research methodology. This is quoting from the start of the

2877
02:18:45,120 --> 02:18:49,080
Speaker 6: autopsy quote. The report analyzes a range of publicly and

2878
02:18:49,120 --> 02:18:53,040
Speaker 6: commercially available data to identify actual investments, actions, and eventual

2879
02:18:53,120 --> 02:18:57,480
Speaker 6: voter behavior. The annalysis also includes qualitative data obtained in

2880
02:18:57,520 --> 02:19:00,200
Speaker 6: the form of in person and virtual interviews with more

2881
02:19:00,240 --> 02:19:04,480
Speaker 6: than three hundred organizations and individuals. After this sentence, the

2882
02:19:04,600 --> 02:19:09,040
Speaker 6: DNC has highlighted and annotated a little note that reads,

2883
02:19:09,840 --> 02:19:13,480
Speaker 6: no source material or data provided. Unsourced claims cannot be

2884
02:19:13,560 --> 02:19:17,879
Speaker 6: independently verified. So despite claiming that three hundred people or

2885
02:19:17,959 --> 02:19:22,320
Speaker 6: organizations were interviewed, which may be true, the report never

2886
02:19:22,360 --> 02:19:26,879
Speaker 6: says who these people are, nor does it allude to

2887
02:19:26,879 --> 02:19:28,000
Speaker 6: their relevant expertise.

2888
02:19:28,800 --> 02:19:30,200
Speaker 1: This is just an obed.

2889
02:19:31,120 --> 02:19:34,200
Speaker 6: A source that the DNC told CNN that Riviera did

2890
02:19:34,200 --> 02:19:36,800
Speaker 6: not even provide a list of names of the people

2891
02:19:36,800 --> 02:19:39,920
Speaker 6: he spoke to to the DNC, nor did he submit

2892
02:19:40,320 --> 02:19:44,360
Speaker 6: interview notes or recording. So there's no record that we

2893
02:19:44,560 --> 02:19:47,760
Speaker 6: have of like who these people are or why they

2894
02:19:47,760 --> 02:19:51,000
Speaker 6: were interviewed or what they actually said. And it's not

2895
02:19:51,040 --> 02:19:54,280
Speaker 6: like he's like quoting from people like with quotation marks.

2896
02:19:54,320 --> 02:19:59,279
Speaker 6: It's like regurgitating maybe portions of interviews into different text.

2897
02:20:00,280 --> 02:20:02,879
Speaker 6: Rivera also failed to provide data that he said was

2898
02:20:02,920 --> 02:20:07,040
Speaker 6: given to him by senior campaign leadership that he says

2899
02:20:07,200 --> 02:20:10,400
Speaker 6: is influencing the report, but we don't see it, and

2900
02:20:10,440 --> 02:20:11,959
Speaker 6: he did not provide it to the DNC, so like

2901
02:20:12,040 --> 02:20:16,080
Speaker 6: they don't know. It's just some guy saying trust me, bro,

2902
02:20:16,440 --> 02:20:19,959
Speaker 6: that's what it sounds like. So after the introduction to

2903
02:20:20,000 --> 02:20:24,440
Speaker 6: the report is a section called the executive Summary. This

2904
02:20:24,520 --> 02:20:26,760
Speaker 6: section was not provided by the author. This section is

2905
02:20:26,760 --> 02:20:27,520
Speaker 6: completely missing.

2906
02:20:27,720 --> 02:20:28,000
Speaker 10: Great.

2907
02:20:29,080 --> 02:20:33,120
Speaker 6: After the missing executive summary section, the report moves on

2908
02:20:33,320 --> 02:20:38,520
Speaker 6: to the electoral landscape, which has just very basic stuff. Quote.

2909
02:20:39,120 --> 02:20:41,520
Speaker 6: Millions of Americans are suffering from poor access to health care,

2910
02:20:41,600 --> 02:20:44,879
Speaker 6: manufacturing of job losses, and failing infrastructure, yet continued to

2911
02:20:44,920 --> 02:20:47,320
Speaker 6: be persuaded to vote against their best interests because they

2912
02:20:47,360 --> 02:20:49,640
Speaker 6: do not see themselves reflected in the America of the

2913
02:20:49,680 --> 02:20:54,720
Speaker 6: Democratic Party unquote. Just really basic stuff, very like average

2914
02:20:55,280 --> 02:20:58,199
Speaker 6: a ten year old can say this. Next, the report

2915
02:20:58,240 --> 02:21:01,400
Speaker 6: talks about how the Democratic part already rebuilt itself in

2916
02:21:01,440 --> 02:21:05,320
Speaker 6: the nineties, how after three consecutive presidential losses, the Democrats

2917
02:21:05,360 --> 02:21:08,000
Speaker 6: embraced a new strategy which got Clinton elected in nineteen

2918
02:21:08,080 --> 02:21:10,640
Speaker 6: ninety two, and we all know how well that went.

2919
02:21:11,920 --> 02:21:16,600
Speaker 6: Then there's seven pages of summarizing party history from two

2920
02:21:16,640 --> 02:21:19,160
Speaker 6: thousand and eight to twenty twenty four. I don't know

2921
02:21:19,200 --> 02:21:22,840
Speaker 6: if he was getting paid by the word, but that's just,

2922
02:21:22,920 --> 02:21:24,800
Speaker 6: like said, it's just seven pages that just don't need

2923
02:21:24,840 --> 02:21:28,520
Speaker 6: to be there. And then the report reads quote, we

2924
02:21:28,600 --> 02:21:31,560
Speaker 6: must be careful to draw the right lessons from this

2925
02:21:31,680 --> 02:21:35,440
Speaker 6: experience and not miss opportunities to identify and build upon

2926
02:21:35,520 --> 02:21:37,800
Speaker 6: some of the positives of the twenty twenty four cycle.

2927
02:21:38,400 --> 02:21:41,720
Speaker 6: We must acknowledge how close the margins actually were. The

2928
02:21:41,760 --> 02:21:44,920
Speaker 6: report then goes on to misstate how close the margins were,

2929
02:21:45,800 --> 02:21:48,480
Speaker 6: but on the other hand, it goes on to say

2930
02:21:48,520 --> 02:21:51,520
Speaker 6: that in the past sixteen years quote, Democrats have lost

2931
02:21:51,520 --> 02:21:54,040
Speaker 6: ground at every level of government. This remains true even

2932
02:21:54,080 --> 02:21:55,920
Speaker 6: in the face of the blue wave in the most

2933
02:21:55,920 --> 02:22:00,560
Speaker 6: recent elections twenty twenty five. Gobernatorial and mayoral wins in Virginia,

2934
02:22:00,600 --> 02:22:04,119
Speaker 6: New Jersey, New York City, Detroit, and elsewhere may lead

2935
02:22:04,200 --> 02:22:08,240
Speaker 6: to a false sense of security and a belief the

2936
02:22:08,280 --> 02:22:11,680
Speaker 6: Democratic Party has again found ways to bring voters back

2937
02:22:11,720 --> 02:22:14,160
Speaker 6: to the booth with their messaging. While these wins are

2938
02:22:14,200 --> 02:22:17,600
Speaker 6: welcome and point to optimism entrenched in the major party strategy,

2939
02:22:18,160 --> 02:22:21,160
Speaker 6: a dive into details shows some of these elections were

2940
02:22:21,200 --> 02:22:24,800
Speaker 6: tighter than Democrats should be comfortable with and points to

2941
02:22:24,920 --> 02:22:29,600
Speaker 6: room for improvement in future efforts. Unquote. It never gives

2942
02:22:29,680 --> 02:22:32,360
Speaker 6: this dive into the details, so we don't even know

2943
02:22:32,480 --> 02:22:35,600
Speaker 6: what it's taking There and to me, this paragraph just

2944
02:22:35,680 --> 02:22:40,360
Speaker 6: demonstrates an unwillingness to understand why some of these elections

2945
02:22:40,360 --> 02:22:42,200
Speaker 6: went the way they did, especially the one in New

2946
02:22:42,240 --> 02:22:45,000
Speaker 6: York City. Doesn't want to acknowledge why someone like Zoron

2947
02:22:45,320 --> 02:22:48,959
Speaker 6: ran such a successful campaign and claiming that the margins

2948
02:22:48,959 --> 02:22:51,720
Speaker 6: were tighter than what Democrats should be comfortable with. Also

2949
02:22:52,040 --> 02:22:56,440
Speaker 6: ignores the fact that Zorn's biggest opponent in both the

2950
02:22:56,440 --> 02:23:00,040
Speaker 6: primary and general election was another Democrat who ran and

2951
02:23:00,160 --> 02:23:03,960
Speaker 6: is an independent, someone who was associated with the Democratic establishment.

2952
02:23:04,280 --> 02:23:07,560
Speaker 6: It's a bizarre little tidbit that they throw in there.

2953
02:23:07,760 --> 02:23:12,560
Speaker 1: This is so weird, just like a highly unnecessary tangent.

2954
02:23:12,680 --> 02:23:16,560
Speaker 6: And it just shows this like uncomfortableness, and you know,

2955
02:23:16,959 --> 02:23:19,080
Speaker 6: on one side being uncomfortable, on the other side, just

2956
02:23:19,120 --> 02:23:23,360
Speaker 6: you know, also being incurious about why those elections have

2957
02:23:23,440 --> 02:23:25,760
Speaker 6: gone the way they did and what you can actually

2958
02:23:25,879 --> 02:23:27,080
Speaker 6: learn from them.

2959
02:23:27,400 --> 02:23:28,200
Speaker 1: This baffling.

2960
02:23:29,520 --> 02:23:32,560
Speaker 6: I'm not going to go over every single section of

2961
02:23:32,600 --> 02:23:35,360
Speaker 6: the report because there's a lot and the way the

2962
02:23:35,440 --> 02:23:39,000
Speaker 6: DNC annotated it gets interesting because at a certain point

2963
02:23:39,000 --> 02:23:43,119
Speaker 6: they stop actually trying to address or annotate specific claims

2964
02:23:43,640 --> 02:23:47,039
Speaker 6: and instead just to annotate the titles of entire sections,

2965
02:23:47,480 --> 02:23:51,080
Speaker 6: writing no sourcing provided for several claims in this section,

2966
02:23:51,280 --> 02:23:53,959
Speaker 6: and no evidence provided for many claims in this section.

2967
02:23:54,240 --> 02:23:57,120
Speaker 6: Public reporting and data contradict several claims.

2968
02:23:57,840 --> 02:23:58,240
Speaker 1: Wow.

2969
02:23:58,680 --> 02:24:03,280
Speaker 6: The introduction for the what Happened Electoral Overview section is

2970
02:24:03,320 --> 02:24:08,080
Speaker 6: also completely missing, as well as the national review section.

2971
02:24:08,520 --> 02:24:11,040
Speaker 6: These are just not included. The author did not provide

2972
02:24:11,160 --> 02:24:16,240
Speaker 6: those sections. The next section, the one on battleground state outcomes,

2973
02:24:16,640 --> 02:24:22,920
Speaker 6: contains very basic factual errors. In just the second sentence, quote,

2974
02:24:23,240 --> 02:24:26,680
Speaker 6: states which had consistently and reliably voted for Democratic candidates,

2975
02:24:26,800 --> 02:24:31,840
Speaker 6: including Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin, voted for Trump. Unquote. All

2976
02:24:31,920 --> 02:24:34,879
Speaker 6: these three states voted for Trump in twenty sixteen. I

2977
02:24:34,920 --> 02:24:38,840
Speaker 6: don't know if Rivera has a different definition of consistent

2978
02:24:39,200 --> 02:24:45,240
Speaker 6: or reliable, but these are notably swing states, and swing

2979
02:24:45,280 --> 02:24:47,600
Speaker 6: states have voted for Trump in twenty sixteen. Yeah, just

2980
02:24:47,600 --> 02:24:50,160
Speaker 6: like a lot of little details like that just don't

2981
02:24:50,200 --> 02:24:53,360
Speaker 6: make sense. And later on in this section and beyond,

2982
02:24:53,600 --> 02:24:57,160
Speaker 6: it gets dates wrong, It gets the percentage of votes wrong.

2983
02:24:57,920 --> 02:25:01,000
Speaker 6: It falsely claims that a Capitol police off was beaten

2984
02:25:01,080 --> 02:25:04,920
Speaker 6: to death by insurrectionists on January sixth. That's not true.

2985
02:25:04,959 --> 02:25:09,280
Speaker 6: That did not happen. An officer killed himself a few

2986
02:25:09,360 --> 02:25:12,280
Speaker 6: days later, but he was not beaten to death on

2987
02:25:12,400 --> 02:25:15,560
Speaker 6: site at January sixth. The report uses the word gaslighting,

2988
02:25:15,640 --> 02:25:16,760
Speaker 6: which I think is funny.

2989
02:25:17,160 --> 02:25:19,680
Speaker 10: I just kind of wonder if you, like uploaded this

2990
02:25:20,520 --> 02:25:23,240
Speaker 10: to one of the like AI softwares to tell you

2991
02:25:23,280 --> 02:25:26,880
Speaker 10: if it's AI or tell you if it was you know,

2992
02:25:27,240 --> 02:25:30,640
Speaker 10: plagiarized and those kinds of things, how much of it

2993
02:25:30,680 --> 02:25:31,520
Speaker 10: would be flagged?

2994
02:25:31,840 --> 02:25:32,040
Speaker 11: Yeah?

2995
02:25:32,080 --> 02:25:34,720
Speaker 6: Who knows, right, Like those sorts of tools aren't the

2996
02:25:34,760 --> 02:25:35,879
Speaker 6: most accurate themselves.

2997
02:25:36,000 --> 02:25:37,520
Speaker 1: No, but it's just crazy.

2998
02:25:37,520 --> 02:25:41,520
Speaker 6: But the level of errors is shocking.

2999
02:25:41,879 --> 02:25:42,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

3000
02:25:42,840 --> 02:25:46,360
Speaker 6: Like, for instance, the report claims that in the twenty

3001
02:25:46,360 --> 02:25:49,480
Speaker 6: twenty four election, Democrats netted two seats in the House,

3002
02:25:49,760 --> 02:25:52,879
Speaker 6: flipping ten seats from Republicans while losing eight. This is

3003
02:25:52,920 --> 02:25:56,120
Speaker 6: not true. This is just not a true claim. Democrats

3004
02:25:56,240 --> 02:26:01,200
Speaker 6: netted one seat rather than two, flipping nine Republican health

3005
02:26:01,240 --> 02:26:04,840
Speaker 6: seats while losing eight Democrat seats. It's like, there's just

3006
02:26:05,000 --> 02:26:08,080
Speaker 6: small little errors like that that I'm like, how how.

3007
02:26:08,480 --> 02:26:09,160
Speaker 3: Did you do this?

3008
02:26:10,240 --> 02:26:11,000
Speaker 1: Unbelievable.

3009
02:26:12,520 --> 02:26:15,320
Speaker 6: There's also a bunch of just unfounded claims about the

3010
02:26:15,360 --> 02:26:20,440
Speaker 6: intentions or assumptions coming from the Harris campaign, which may

3011
02:26:20,480 --> 02:26:24,640
Speaker 6: be true, but they're not supported in the actual report,

3012
02:26:25,200 --> 02:26:28,680
Speaker 6: Like you're not providing evidence, you're not providing citations for

3013
02:26:28,840 --> 02:26:32,240
Speaker 6: some of the claims about what the Harris Party intended

3014
02:26:32,840 --> 02:26:36,520
Speaker 6: in some of their messaging or stances. But I want

3015
02:26:36,560 --> 02:26:38,440
Speaker 6: to move on to one of the biggest takeaways that

3016
02:26:38,440 --> 02:26:42,959
Speaker 6: the report had. It argues that anti Trump sentiment was

3017
02:26:43,080 --> 02:26:47,240
Speaker 6: assumed by Democratic campaigns and that campaign ads should have

3018
02:26:47,320 --> 02:26:50,680
Speaker 6: hit Trump harder to remind voters of how bad he

3019
02:26:50,760 --> 02:26:56,200
Speaker 6: is quote. The national campaign did not effectively drive Trump's negatives,

3020
02:26:56,720 --> 02:26:59,600
Speaker 6: the retrospective job approval for Trump was too high, and

3021
02:26:59,640 --> 02:27:02,680
Speaker 6: the Camp Pagin and allies failed to remind voters of

3022
02:27:02,680 --> 02:27:06,040
Speaker 6: his incompetence. The idea of Trump's negatives were quote unquote

3023
02:27:06,080 --> 02:27:09,720
Speaker 6: baked in is a major failure of analysis and reality,

3024
02:27:10,160 --> 02:27:13,560
Speaker 6: given how his favorability has cratered less than a year

3025
02:27:13,920 --> 02:27:19,040
Speaker 6: into this term unquote. The DNC notes that no evidence

3026
02:27:19,080 --> 02:27:23,320
Speaker 6: was provided for these claims, and that this claim contradicts

3027
02:27:23,440 --> 02:27:27,280
Speaker 6: claims elsewhere in the report because a lot of the

3028
02:27:27,320 --> 02:27:32,440
Speaker 6: report also criticizes Harris for only defining herself as not

3029
02:27:32,640 --> 02:27:35,520
Speaker 6: being Trump, as focusing too much on Trump and not

3030
02:27:35,560 --> 02:27:38,960
Speaker 6: defining herself. So the report kind of tries to have

3031
02:27:39,000 --> 02:27:42,720
Speaker 6: it both ways here. The campaigns did not hit Trump

3032
02:27:42,800 --> 02:27:47,080
Speaker 6: hard enough, but were also too focused on Trump, never

3033
02:27:47,240 --> 02:27:50,840
Speaker 6: illuminating what attacks against Trump should have looked like.

3034
02:27:50,959 --> 02:27:55,959
Speaker 10: Exactly is there any mention in these reports about Epstein?

3035
02:27:59,120 --> 02:28:01,960
Speaker 6: No? No, oh no, yeah, no, absolutely not.

3036
02:28:02,280 --> 02:28:03,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it.

3037
02:28:03,360 --> 02:28:06,440
Speaker 10: Was baffling to me that because they needed to have

3038
02:28:06,640 --> 02:28:10,160
Speaker 10: Bill Clinton make the worst speech at the DNC, that

3039
02:28:10,240 --> 02:28:13,840
Speaker 10: they didn't target Trump over his relationship with Epstein at

3040
02:28:13,840 --> 02:28:15,119
Speaker 10: all during the campaign.

3041
02:28:15,720 --> 02:28:18,240
Speaker 1: So you know, of course it's not in there.

3042
02:28:18,800 --> 02:28:20,320
Speaker 6: I mean, yeah, there's a lot of a lot of

3043
02:28:20,320 --> 02:28:22,680
Speaker 6: things that you could hit Trump on, and a lot

3044
02:28:22,680 --> 02:28:27,119
Speaker 6: of yeah, Democratic ads like did maybe not in ways

3045
02:28:27,120 --> 02:28:30,040
Speaker 6: that people found convincing. You know, like when we were

3046
02:28:30,040 --> 02:28:32,640
Speaker 6: at the DNC, A lot of the anti Trump stuff

3047
02:28:32,800 --> 02:28:35,920
Speaker 6: was based around like the horror of January sixth, Yeah,

3048
02:28:36,000 --> 02:28:40,840
Speaker 6: not his regular failures as president, right, like, like like

3049
02:28:41,000 --> 02:28:43,960
Speaker 6: the day to day incompetence that he showed as president.

3050
02:28:44,040 --> 02:28:48,280
Speaker 6: It was like Trump is threat to democracy, which just

3051
02:28:48,360 --> 02:28:50,560
Speaker 6: did not turn out to be a compelling enough reason

3052
02:28:50,600 --> 02:28:51,720
Speaker 6: to vote against Trump.

3053
02:28:52,400 --> 02:28:53,360
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness.

3054
02:28:53,760 --> 02:28:57,520
Speaker 6: The report claims that Harris struggled with defining herself beyond

3055
02:28:57,720 --> 02:29:01,720
Speaker 6: not being Trump and just framing the race as prosecutor

3056
02:29:01,800 --> 02:29:06,680
Speaker 6: versus felon. Report notes quote the truncated campaign timeline didn't help,

3057
02:29:07,120 --> 02:29:10,040
Speaker 6: but the campaign did not quickly resolve on how to

3058
02:29:10,160 --> 02:29:14,120
Speaker 6: tag Trump and define Harris. The report says that the

3059
02:29:14,560 --> 02:29:19,920
Speaker 6: enthusiasm gap was predictable, that Trump just generated more enthusiasm

3060
02:29:20,120 --> 02:29:23,280
Speaker 6: than Harris. Does not provide evidence to support this claim,

3061
02:29:23,560 --> 02:29:26,200
Speaker 6: though some people may believe this to be true, but

3062
02:29:26,240 --> 02:29:29,720
Speaker 6: this claim is not supported in the actual report, and

3063
02:29:29,879 --> 02:29:33,400
Speaker 6: it reads quote anti Trump sentiment alone was insufficient to

3064
02:29:33,440 --> 02:29:37,160
Speaker 6: motivate voters. The Harris campaign appears to have relied on

3065
02:29:37,200 --> 02:29:41,400
Speaker 6: Trump being unacceptable rather than building an affirmative case for

3066
02:29:41,520 --> 02:29:45,600
Speaker 6: Harris base voters and needed reasons to vote for Harris

3067
02:29:45,959 --> 02:29:50,320
Speaker 6: as well as vote against Trump. DNC notes no evidence

3068
02:29:50,360 --> 02:29:53,560
Speaker 6: provided for these claims, So I kind of agree with

3069
02:29:53,680 --> 02:29:57,279
Speaker 6: portions of this. I think, yeah, you do need reasons

3070
02:29:57,320 --> 02:30:00,240
Speaker 6: to vote for Harris. You cannot be justified as not

3071
02:30:00,320 --> 02:30:04,400
Speaker 6: being Trump. This does contradict the previous takeaway that anti

3072
02:30:04,400 --> 02:30:08,200
Speaker 6: Trump's sediment was not driven hard enough into voters. So

3073
02:30:08,360 --> 02:30:12,920
Speaker 6: perhaps this claim isn't necessarily wrong, but it is armchair analysis.

3074
02:30:13,000 --> 02:30:16,840
Speaker 6: It's not actually attempting to substantiate its claims. It's lazy

3075
02:30:16,840 --> 02:30:20,400
Speaker 6: and sloppy, and it ignores that there were also reasons

3076
02:30:20,680 --> 02:30:23,720
Speaker 6: to not vote for Harris. It's not just that the

3077
02:30:23,720 --> 02:30:26,360
Speaker 6: campaign needed to generate reasons to vote for Harris, but

3078
02:30:26,560 --> 02:30:30,600
Speaker 6: it also should have addressed or changed its course to

3079
02:30:30,760 --> 02:30:33,959
Speaker 6: address the reasons that people might not want to vote

3080
02:30:33,959 --> 02:30:36,800
Speaker 6: for Harris, which we will get to at the end

3081
02:30:36,879 --> 02:30:41,680
Speaker 6: of this episode. In terms of the election analysis included

3082
02:30:41,680 --> 02:30:44,200
Speaker 6: in this report, a lot of it is focused on

3083
02:30:44,280 --> 02:30:48,840
Speaker 6: comparing Harris's performance to state level races where Democratic candidates

3084
02:30:48,879 --> 02:30:54,240
Speaker 6: outperformed her, but also where she outperformed them, and the

3085
02:30:54,240 --> 02:30:59,240
Speaker 6: analysis often conflates the two. It reiterates that quote lower

3086
02:30:59,280 --> 02:31:03,600
Speaker 6: profile rate needed affirmative cases to vote for candidates, not

3087
02:31:03,720 --> 02:31:08,520
Speaker 6: just opposition to Trump, and it credits successful state campaigns

3088
02:31:08,800 --> 02:31:13,560
Speaker 6: to local name recognition and digital presence, things that Harris

3089
02:31:13,640 --> 02:31:17,720
Speaker 6: was not necessarily lacking in. Harris spent a decent amount

3090
02:31:17,720 --> 02:31:21,760
Speaker 6: of money on digital presence, and as vice president, had

3091
02:31:21,800 --> 02:31:25,680
Speaker 6: a degree of name recognition. There's more odd errors here.

3092
02:31:26,000 --> 02:31:28,840
Speaker 6: The report gets the number of twenty twenty four gobnatorial

3093
02:31:28,959 --> 02:31:32,800
Speaker 6: races wrong. It forgets that Delaware had a governatorial race,

3094
02:31:33,440 --> 02:31:35,760
Speaker 6: and it focuses much of this section of the report

3095
02:31:35,879 --> 02:31:40,720
Speaker 6: on Josh Stein of North Carolina, who's the governor. Yeah. Quote.

3096
02:31:41,080 --> 02:31:43,720
Speaker 6: While Stein was able to keep the governor's office under

3097
02:31:43,720 --> 02:31:47,480
Speaker 6: democratic control, it is concerning how Robinson was able to

3098
02:31:47,480 --> 02:31:50,640
Speaker 6: capture forty five percent of the state's vote even after

3099
02:31:50,680 --> 02:31:54,400
Speaker 6: his repudiation of equal rights for everyone and proudly and

3100
02:31:54,480 --> 02:31:58,320
Speaker 6: loudly asserting he was a black Nazi unquote.

3101
02:31:58,879 --> 02:32:01,600
Speaker 10: Man, I forgot about that guy. I'm mad that you

3102
02:32:01,680 --> 02:32:04,279
Speaker 10: brought him up. I forgot he existed.

3103
02:32:06,120 --> 02:32:07,960
Speaker 6: A lot of the section of this report is actually

3104
02:32:08,000 --> 02:32:10,879
Speaker 6: praising Josh Stein for how well he ran his campaign,

3105
02:32:11,600 --> 02:32:15,240
Speaker 6: while also finding it concerning of how much the vote

3106
02:32:15,320 --> 02:32:17,840
Speaker 6: Robinson was able to still get, except it gets the

3107
02:32:17,920 --> 02:32:21,760
Speaker 6: number wrong. Robinson did not get forty five percent of

3108
02:32:21,800 --> 02:32:25,360
Speaker 6: the vote. He got just over forty percent, And later

3109
02:32:25,440 --> 02:32:27,959
Speaker 6: in the report it says he got forty two point

3110
02:32:28,080 --> 02:32:31,600
Speaker 6: seven percent, which is also wrong. So it has two

3111
02:32:31,640 --> 02:32:35,320
Speaker 6: different numbers. The report says forty five and forty two

3112
02:32:35,360 --> 02:32:38,920
Speaker 6: point seven, neither of which are correct. The correct number

3113
02:32:38,959 --> 02:32:43,000
Speaker 6: is forty people. This is a lot of stuff like this.

3114
02:32:43,440 --> 02:32:46,240
Speaker 6: There's just kind of baffling, and it's even more baffling

3115
02:32:46,240 --> 02:32:49,280
Speaker 6: because of how much of a load bearing section this

3116
02:32:49,400 --> 02:32:52,560
Speaker 6: Josh Stein bit is right. It writes about how Josh

3117
02:32:52,600 --> 02:32:56,039
Speaker 6: Stein ran almost eight points ahead of Harris, and it

3118
02:32:56,080 --> 02:33:00,440
Speaker 6: says that quote Stein didn't just win by default. He

3119
02:33:00,520 --> 02:33:05,320
Speaker 6: addressed the exact problems Harris did not. But it never

3120
02:33:05,680 --> 02:33:09,680
Speaker 6: actually explains what those are. It doesn't actually explain this,

3121
02:33:09,760 --> 02:33:12,640
Speaker 6: It just says it. In a sentence later on, it

3122
02:33:12,760 --> 02:33:16,160
Speaker 6: says that, based on the North Carolina governor's race, Democrats

3123
02:33:16,160 --> 02:33:20,600
Speaker 6: should quote focus less on abstract issues and identity politics

3124
02:33:20,600 --> 02:33:23,200
Speaker 6: and connect with voters on the issues they say matter most,

3125
02:33:23,560 --> 02:33:28,520
Speaker 6: including the economy, disaster relief, and addressing housing affordability. Unquote,

3126
02:33:28,800 --> 02:33:32,880
Speaker 6: but the Harris's campaign was not actually focused on abstract

3127
02:33:32,879 --> 02:33:36,160
Speaker 6: issues and identity politics. They were trying to address these things,

3128
02:33:36,440 --> 02:33:39,360
Speaker 6: often inadequately, especially on the economy because of how much

3129
02:33:39,440 --> 02:33:42,840
Speaker 6: Harris had tied herself to Biden. But she did address

3130
02:33:42,879 --> 02:33:45,640
Speaker 6: housing affordability for like a decent bit of the campaign.

3131
02:33:45,920 --> 02:33:49,400
Speaker 6: Whether voters actually knew that, that's a whole other question, right.

3132
02:33:49,600 --> 02:33:54,280
Speaker 6: It's whether they were successful in communicating her platform on

3133
02:33:54,320 --> 02:33:57,920
Speaker 6: housing affordability is a different question, But not that Stein's

3134
02:33:57,959 --> 02:34:00,760
Speaker 6: success was focused on this. As a post to focusing

3135
02:34:00,800 --> 02:34:05,080
Speaker 6: on abstract issues, which is not really what the Harris

3136
02:34:05,080 --> 02:34:09,000
Speaker 6: campaign was actually focused on. The report continues, quote Harris

3137
02:34:09,040 --> 02:34:12,200
Speaker 6: saw dramatic drops in support among young Latino men and

3138
02:34:12,320 --> 02:34:15,960
Speaker 6: young Black men compared to Biden's twenty twenty performance. However,

3139
02:34:16,400 --> 02:34:21,680
Speaker 6: Stein recovered significant ground with both groups, suggesting his campaign

3140
02:34:21,760 --> 02:34:26,080
Speaker 6: found effective ways to reach these voters. Stein's result suggests

3141
02:34:26,120 --> 02:34:29,200
Speaker 6: it's possible to win women and compete with men with

3142
02:34:29,400 --> 02:34:35,480
Speaker 6: the right approach. Unquote. Does it explain how Stein did this? No, No,

3143
02:34:35,600 --> 02:34:36,080
Speaker 6: it doesn't.

3144
02:34:36,200 --> 02:34:37,039
Speaker 1: Of course it doesn't.

3145
02:34:37,680 --> 02:34:42,880
Speaker 6: He doesn't say now. The report also praises Washington Governor

3146
02:34:42,920 --> 02:34:46,480
Speaker 6: Bob Ferguson, who was elected in twenty twenty four. Quote.

3147
02:34:46,720 --> 02:34:49,600
Speaker 6: Running on a platform of housing affordability, reducing costs for

3148
02:34:49,640 --> 02:34:52,840
Speaker 6: families throughout the state, and improving public safety allowed him

3149
02:34:52,840 --> 02:34:56,160
Speaker 6: to easily capture the governor's office. His message resonated with

3150
02:34:56,240 --> 02:34:59,720
Speaker 6: voters concerned about how bidonomics failed to lower the cost

3151
02:34:59,720 --> 02:35:02,920
Speaker 6: of a and how the Trump administration would gut avenues

3152
02:35:02,959 --> 02:35:08,560
Speaker 6: of education and upward mobility. Stein and Ferguson, notably both

3153
02:35:08,680 --> 02:35:12,640
Speaker 6: then incumbent attorneys general for their states, had a definitive

3154
02:35:12,720 --> 02:35:16,280
Speaker 6: strategy to approach voters. Their wins provide a blueprint for

3155
02:35:16,360 --> 02:35:19,680
Speaker 6: candidates in other states seeking to align themselves with their

3156
02:35:19,800 --> 02:35:24,279
Speaker 6: voters unquote. So Ferguson's win in Washington State is presented

3157
02:35:24,320 --> 02:35:27,920
Speaker 6: as a blueprint for candidates as compared to Harris's failed strategy,

3158
02:35:28,760 --> 02:35:32,960
Speaker 6: but in fact, Ferguson ran almost four points behind Harris.

3159
02:35:33,600 --> 02:35:36,880
Speaker 6: Harris did better in Washington than Ferguson did, but the

3160
02:35:36,959 --> 02:35:42,000
Speaker 6: report promotes Ferguson's strategy, or its its opinion on Ferguson's strategy,

3161
02:35:42,200 --> 02:35:44,960
Speaker 6: as the winning blueprint, despite it doing worse in Washington.

3162
02:35:45,920 --> 02:35:47,760
Speaker 6: So that's what I mean in terms of there being

3163
02:35:48,000 --> 02:35:49,960
Speaker 6: lots of self contradictory claims.

3164
02:35:50,440 --> 02:35:55,160
Speaker 10: Yeah, did nobody proofread or edit or peer review?

3165
02:35:55,920 --> 02:35:58,080
Speaker 6: Well no, I think that is a big part of this, right,

3166
02:35:58,160 --> 02:36:01,320
Speaker 6: is that once the DNC received this, they saw how

3167
02:36:01,360 --> 02:36:03,320
Speaker 6: bad it was, and it was like, we don't even

3168
02:36:03,440 --> 02:36:05,400
Speaker 6: want to prove freedom edit this, Like this is just

3169
02:36:05,440 --> 02:36:07,040
Speaker 6: so bad, we just don't even want to deal with

3170
02:36:07,080 --> 02:36:09,120
Speaker 6: it anymore. Like it's just done right, We're just putting

3171
02:36:09,160 --> 02:36:09,600
Speaker 6: on the shelf.

3172
02:36:09,840 --> 02:36:11,480
Speaker 1: But dude released it anyways.

3173
02:36:11,760 --> 02:36:14,840
Speaker 6: Well, I mean they released it after public pressure because

3174
02:36:14,840 --> 02:36:18,199
Speaker 6: of you know, accusations that they were hiding certain findings

3175
02:36:18,600 --> 02:36:21,119
Speaker 6: that were damaging to the Democratic Party or the interests

3176
02:36:21,120 --> 02:36:21,920
Speaker 6: of party elites.

3177
02:36:22,200 --> 02:36:26,640
Speaker 10: No, it's just it's just that somebody did a bad.

3178
02:36:26,440 --> 02:36:28,920
Speaker 6: Job, when in fact it's just like, oh, this was

3179
02:36:28,920 --> 02:36:30,959
Speaker 6: just like a massive suck up, Like that's that's why

3180
02:36:31,000 --> 02:36:34,640
Speaker 6: you're hiding it, right right, Like this this this section

3181
02:36:34,720 --> 02:36:37,280
Speaker 6: that I just like read and the section on like Stein. Yeah,

3182
02:36:37,440 --> 02:36:40,640
Speaker 6: that's the only time where the word cost is used

3183
02:36:40,640 --> 02:36:42,920
Speaker 6: in relation to prices. Sick. This is this is the

3184
02:36:42,959 --> 02:36:44,720
Speaker 6: only mention of affordability.

3185
02:36:44,920 --> 02:36:45,800
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

3186
02:36:46,240 --> 02:36:50,840
Speaker 6: The report does not a single time mentioned inflation, Oh

3187
02:36:50,879 --> 02:36:56,120
Speaker 6: my god, except in adjusting like donation numbers for inflation. Like,

3188
02:36:56,320 --> 02:36:59,039
Speaker 6: it doesn't. It doesn't mention inflation as an issue. It

3189
02:36:59,040 --> 02:37:02,760
Speaker 6: does not mention the causes of inflation, messaging around inflation

3190
02:37:03,440 --> 02:37:06,480
Speaker 6: and how that may have been a factor contributing to

3191
02:37:06,520 --> 02:37:09,640
Speaker 6: the results of the election. The economy only gets mentioned

3192
02:37:09,640 --> 02:37:10,440
Speaker 6: six times.

3193
02:37:10,920 --> 02:37:15,160
Speaker 10: Okay, just thinking back to when we were at the RNC,

3194
02:37:15,680 --> 02:37:19,400
Speaker 10: and I'm sure you had the conversations with you know,

3195
02:37:19,680 --> 02:37:24,000
Speaker 10: newly eligible voters, young males. Yeah, and you ask them,

3196
02:37:24,160 --> 02:37:27,440
Speaker 10: you know, why they were voting for Donald Trump. They

3197
02:37:27,480 --> 02:37:31,400
Speaker 10: would always say the economy it's the first thing.

3198
02:37:31,879 --> 02:37:34,320
Speaker 6: It's the first thing. Yeah, and that's the core of

3199
02:37:34,920 --> 02:37:36,640
Speaker 6: Trump's ad strategy.

3200
02:37:37,000 --> 02:37:40,080
Speaker 1: How are they not understanding that, you know, bringing out

3201
02:37:40,120 --> 02:37:42,960
Speaker 1: Oprah at the DNC instead of talking about how you're

3202
02:37:43,000 --> 02:37:45,959
Speaker 1: going to lower the price of milk and eggs and

3203
02:37:46,120 --> 02:37:50,760
Speaker 1: gas and help people get jobs, Like, how are they

3204
02:37:50,800 --> 02:37:54,480
Speaker 1: not realizing that you're not reaching normal human connection?

3205
02:37:55,240 --> 02:37:58,000
Speaker 6: And this like continues to be a problem now, right, Yeah,

3206
02:37:58,080 --> 02:38:02,200
Speaker 6: people will look at macro economic fact sure and be like,

3207
02:38:02,360 --> 02:38:05,640
Speaker 6: by some accounts, the unum is actually not doing terrible,

3208
02:38:06,520 --> 02:38:09,680
Speaker 6: But those sorts of statements don't reflect the reality of

3209
02:38:09,760 --> 02:38:12,800
Speaker 6: Americans who are dealing with rising prices and may not

3210
02:38:12,840 --> 02:38:16,039
Speaker 6: be experiencing the same wage growth that some statistics show

3211
02:38:16,480 --> 02:38:20,080
Speaker 6: in the macro sense, and specifically the way that there's

3212
02:38:20,080 --> 02:38:24,360
Speaker 6: this like a condescending messaging around macroeconomics that really like

3213
02:38:24,480 --> 02:38:28,480
Speaker 6: polarizes people against you because they're having a very hard time,

3214
02:38:28,520 --> 02:38:30,080
Speaker 6: they don't have a lot of hope for the future,

3215
02:38:30,520 --> 02:38:33,480
Speaker 6: and just asserting that actually, on a macro's level, the

3216
02:38:33,520 --> 02:38:38,119
Speaker 6: economy is doing well, it feels like you're gas lighting them, right, Yeah,

3217
02:38:38,240 --> 02:38:39,959
Speaker 6: So you see this in like the discussion of like,

3218
02:38:40,000 --> 02:38:42,800
Speaker 6: you know, the vibe session. Yeah, which I mean I

3219
02:38:42,800 --> 02:38:47,439
Speaker 6: have a lot of opinions on but that's another episode.

3220
02:38:47,800 --> 02:39:03,400
Speaker 6: And right now we're going to go to ads. Oh boy, okay,

3221
02:39:03,440 --> 02:39:07,959
Speaker 6: we are back. So after this section talking about the

3222
02:39:08,000 --> 02:39:12,519
Speaker 6: gubernatorial races and stuff, it has a list of strategic

3223
02:39:12,760 --> 02:39:17,880
Speaker 6: implications for Democrats based on these state level races, and

3224
02:39:18,000 --> 02:39:22,520
Speaker 6: these implications are quote, anti Trump sentiment has its limits. Oh,

3225
02:39:22,600 --> 02:39:27,720
Speaker 6: regular voters are swing voters Canada. Definition is essential. Clear,

3226
02:39:27,760 --> 02:39:32,600
Speaker 6: accomplishments and concrete plans matter more than vibes. State parties matter.

3227
02:39:33,120 --> 02:39:35,920
Speaker 6: Voters are sophisticated. The eight to ten percent who split

3228
02:39:35,959 --> 02:39:42,000
Speaker 6: tickets are decisive. They evaluate candidates individually. Geographic formula is

3229
02:39:42,080 --> 02:39:47,879
Speaker 6: non negotiable. Strong urban plus competitive suburbs plus limited rural losses.

3230
02:39:48,120 --> 02:39:53,080
Speaker 6: You need all three. Yeah, no shit. In order to

3231
02:39:53,120 --> 02:39:56,680
Speaker 6: win elections, you must win elections. Yeah, that's what this

3232
02:39:56,840 --> 02:39:59,560
Speaker 6: is saying, is that in order to win elections, you

3233
02:39:59,640 --> 02:40:03,680
Speaker 6: have to win the election. Yeah, we know, we know.

3234
02:40:04,480 --> 02:40:07,560
Speaker 10: Yeah, there's this there's this announcer in the NBA that

3235
02:40:07,879 --> 02:40:10,879
Speaker 10: got slammed many years back for stating, well, you know,

3236
02:40:11,000 --> 02:40:12,800
Speaker 10: the team with the most points at the end of

3237
02:40:12,800 --> 02:40:17,240
Speaker 10: the game wins, and that's exactly what this is. They're like, hey,

3238
02:40:17,560 --> 02:40:20,279
Speaker 10: if you get more votes than the other guy.

3239
02:40:20,800 --> 02:40:22,000
Speaker 4: You'll win it.

3240
02:40:22,120 --> 02:40:25,280
Speaker 10: It's crazy, it's lazy that this whole, this whole thing

3241
02:40:25,360 --> 02:40:31,080
Speaker 10: reeks of just like, yes, lacksadaisical, insufferable laziness.

3242
02:40:31,520 --> 02:40:37,000
Speaker 6: Yes, And I want to mention two other strategic implications please. One,

3243
02:40:37,840 --> 02:40:42,199
Speaker 6: Elections remain winnable with the right candidates and strategies, even

3244
02:40:42,240 --> 02:40:47,440
Speaker 6: in difficult environments. Demographics are tendencies, not destiny. And voter

3245
02:40:47,560 --> 02:40:51,840
Speaker 6: support is impacted good and bad through campaign choices.

3246
02:40:51,959 --> 02:40:55,160
Speaker 1: Unquote, wow, thank you so much for saying that.

3247
02:40:55,120 --> 02:40:59,560
Speaker 10: If people genius, if people believe in and like the candidate,

3248
02:40:59,680 --> 02:41:01,080
Speaker 10: maybe the vote for them.

3249
02:41:01,920 --> 02:41:02,280
Speaker 1: Wow.

3250
02:41:02,560 --> 02:41:05,720
Speaker 6: Voter support is impacted through campaign choices.

3251
02:41:06,520 --> 02:41:08,879
Speaker 1: Just just ah, my goodness.

3252
02:41:09,280 --> 02:41:12,720
Speaker 6: So that's obviously laughable. Yes, this last one is more interesting.

3253
02:41:13,240 --> 02:41:18,240
Speaker 6: Male voters require direct engagement. The gender gap can be narrowed.

3254
02:41:18,840 --> 02:41:24,439
Speaker 6: Deploy male messagers address economic concerns, and don't assume identity

3255
02:41:24,480 --> 02:41:29,160
Speaker 6: politics will hold male voters of color, men hate women,

3256
02:41:30,040 --> 02:41:33,760
Speaker 6: men hate It's not the messenger. It's not the messenger,

3257
02:41:33,920 --> 02:41:37,240
Speaker 6: it's the message. It's not about who the messenger is.

3258
02:41:37,280 --> 02:41:39,880
Speaker 6: It's the message itself. And they can't grasp that.

3259
02:41:40,480 --> 02:41:41,879
Speaker 1: Why is that their take?

3260
02:41:42,640 --> 02:41:47,119
Speaker 6: They're doing the same identity politics that is like trying

3261
02:41:47,120 --> 02:41:50,360
Speaker 6: to critique. It's like, no, we need men to talk

3262
02:41:50,400 --> 02:41:54,640
Speaker 6: to male voters. That's the only way. That's also identity politics.

3263
02:41:54,800 --> 02:41:57,160
Speaker 6: You don't understand that. It's not about who's giving the message,

3264
02:41:57,160 --> 02:42:00,720
Speaker 6: it's about what the message actually is. How did white

3265
02:42:00,800 --> 02:42:04,680
Speaker 6: dudes for Harris work out? You literally tried this. You

3266
02:42:04,800 --> 02:42:07,279
Speaker 6: literally tried to do this. It did not work.

3267
02:42:07,720 --> 02:42:08,160
Speaker 1: Garrison.

3268
02:42:08,240 --> 02:42:10,280
Speaker 10: Once again, I did block that out of my brain.

3269
02:42:10,720 --> 02:42:16,160
Speaker 10: I did not like hearing it. Yeah, their take is sorry,

3270
02:42:16,200 --> 02:42:19,200
Speaker 10: if you want to talk to the boys, you also

3271
02:42:19,440 --> 02:42:20,880
Speaker 10: have to be a boy.

3272
02:42:21,240 --> 02:42:21,920
Speaker 6: It's crazy.

3273
02:42:22,160 --> 02:42:29,039
Speaker 1: What it's lazy, it's stupid. God, all right, what else

3274
02:42:29,160 --> 02:42:31,600
Speaker 1: hit me there? I know that you're saving some of

3275
02:42:31,640 --> 02:42:32,720
Speaker 1: the worst for the end.

3276
02:42:32,920 --> 02:42:35,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, I am saving some of the bad stuff for last.

3277
02:42:35,360 --> 02:42:37,480
Speaker 6: There's a few other small errors I want to go through, Like,

3278
02:42:37,560 --> 02:42:40,560
Speaker 6: let's do it like it claims that tens of thousands

3279
02:42:40,600 --> 02:42:43,320
Speaker 6: of voters and a handful of states are who sent

3280
02:42:43,400 --> 02:42:47,360
Speaker 6: Trump back to the White House. That's that's accurate. That's

3281
02:42:47,360 --> 02:42:49,280
Speaker 6: just that's just not inaccurate. And the DNC notesic what

3282
02:42:49,440 --> 02:42:53,240
Speaker 6: happened at all okay an. Out of thirty four senate races,

3283
02:42:53,760 --> 02:42:57,760
Speaker 6: the report only reviews six of them, which it attempts

3284
02:42:57,800 --> 02:43:01,400
Speaker 6: to extrapolate a pattern from, and it does not review Wisconsin,

3285
02:43:01,520 --> 02:43:04,879
Speaker 6: a key swing state. And the author also just did

3286
02:43:04,920 --> 02:43:07,480
Speaker 6: not include this section on house races. This section is

3287
02:43:07,480 --> 02:43:12,600
Speaker 6: completely blank. It's also missing. Cool now, it does have

3288
02:43:12,680 --> 02:43:14,959
Speaker 6: a list of, you know, lessons that we can learn

3289
02:43:15,320 --> 02:43:19,560
Speaker 6: from senate level and state level races. The positive ones

3290
02:43:19,560 --> 02:43:22,800
Speaker 6: are that Democrats should maintain a year around presence. We

3291
02:43:22,840 --> 02:43:27,200
Speaker 6: should kind of always be campaigning, don't just wait till

3292
02:43:27,240 --> 02:43:29,640
Speaker 6: the end, just to always keep a level of engagement.

3293
02:43:29,680 --> 02:43:32,320
Speaker 6: And that engagement should be community oriented. It should be

3294
02:43:32,320 --> 02:43:35,480
Speaker 6: grassroots in nature. You should be establishing partnerships with local

3295
02:43:35,520 --> 02:43:40,959
Speaker 6: community organizations and groups in working class communities, because member

3296
02:43:41,000 --> 02:43:44,119
Speaker 6: to member outreach is more effective. Rather than having strangers

3297
02:43:44,120 --> 02:43:47,200
Speaker 6: do door knocking, you should have people from that neighborhood

3298
02:43:47,200 --> 02:43:50,760
Speaker 6: be door knocking in their own neighborhoods, and their messaging

3299
02:43:50,840 --> 02:43:54,680
Speaker 6: should be bilingual and culturally competent. So like all the

3300
02:43:54,680 --> 02:43:57,240
Speaker 6: stuff is like yeah, like I su this is like

3301
02:43:57,480 --> 02:43:59,760
Speaker 6: I kind of agree, right, this is like yeah, very

3302
02:44:00,160 --> 02:44:03,000
Speaker 6: very basic, but yes, this is this is a good idea.

3303
02:44:03,040 --> 02:44:08,320
Speaker 6: You should strengthen your connections in Latino neighborhoods and with unions,

3304
02:44:08,680 --> 02:44:12,400
Speaker 6: and you should lean on those to help win elections. Yep,

3305
02:44:12,480 --> 02:44:13,920
Speaker 6: that's how politics works.

3306
02:44:14,120 --> 02:44:16,040
Speaker 1: You learn very young stranger danger.

3307
02:44:16,480 --> 02:44:18,920
Speaker 10: And so it's like, if you are someone like me

3308
02:44:19,000 --> 02:44:21,400
Speaker 10: who has cameras at their house and you see a

3309
02:44:21,480 --> 02:44:25,000
Speaker 10: strange person coming to your door, you're not necessarily going

3310
02:44:25,080 --> 02:44:25,600
Speaker 10: to answer that.

3311
02:44:25,959 --> 02:44:28,680
Speaker 6: No, someone with a clipboard is going to approach me.

3312
02:44:28,720 --> 02:44:30,800
Speaker 6: It's like, Oh, no way, I'm not having not doing it.

3313
02:44:30,879 --> 02:44:33,760
Speaker 1: I can't. You're I'm already over stimulated. Please leave me on.

3314
02:44:34,120 --> 02:44:37,520
Speaker 10: But if it's like, oh, hey, it's my neighbor, I'm

3315
02:44:37,520 --> 02:44:39,760
Speaker 10: going to open the door for them and hear them out,

3316
02:44:40,280 --> 02:44:42,760
Speaker 10: that's I fear. That's just common sense. I don't think

3317
02:44:42,760 --> 02:44:46,000
Speaker 10: that was necessarily needed in this report. That's common sense,

3318
02:44:46,200 --> 02:44:49,480
Speaker 10: but it's something I don't disagree with for like the

3319
02:44:49,520 --> 02:44:51,600
Speaker 10: first time. And all these things that you said.

3320
02:44:51,840 --> 02:44:54,240
Speaker 6: Now, the sort of negative things that the Democrats can

3321
02:44:54,320 --> 02:44:58,440
Speaker 6: learn from, yeah, include what the report calls the leadership

3322
02:44:58,560 --> 02:45:02,680
Speaker 6: voter gap, the fact that the Democratic Party leadership seems

3323
02:45:02,760 --> 02:45:07,400
Speaker 6: increasingly alienated from the priorities of voters and voters may

3324
02:45:07,440 --> 02:45:11,080
Speaker 6: still support their local Democrat on the state level or

3325
02:45:11,160 --> 02:45:15,080
Speaker 6: local races, but maybe we'll vote for Trump because he's

3326
02:45:15,120 --> 02:45:20,199
Speaker 6: offering an alternative to the stagnating corpse of the Democratic Party,

3327
02:45:20,240 --> 02:45:22,920
Speaker 6: even if that alternative turns out to be also terrible

3328
02:45:22,959 --> 02:45:25,360
Speaker 6: and in some ways worse. So this is what they

3329
02:45:25,360 --> 02:45:28,959
Speaker 6: call the leadership voter gap. They also identify late engagement,

3330
02:45:29,600 --> 02:45:34,200
Speaker 6: doing the bulk of your campaigning from like September to November,

3331
02:45:34,879 --> 02:45:38,920
Speaker 6: seating the entire summer for the Republicans to establish kind

3332
02:45:38,959 --> 02:45:41,840
Speaker 6: of the territory of the race, like what the issues are,

3333
02:45:42,600 --> 02:45:46,959
Speaker 6: the report mentions, messaging, misalignment. This is similar to the

3334
02:45:47,080 --> 02:45:52,320
Speaker 6: leadership voter gap, where there's tensions between the leadership of

3335
02:45:52,400 --> 02:45:55,360
Speaker 6: the party or the concerns of the president and what

3336
02:45:55,640 --> 02:46:01,199
Speaker 6: working class Americans are concerned about. Quote. The Bidenomics framing

3337
02:46:01,240 --> 02:46:05,760
Speaker 6: emphasized macro statistics rather than the microrealities voters experienced daily,

3338
02:46:06,160 --> 02:46:11,800
Speaker 6: and specifically tied President Biden by name to actual economic anxiety. Unquote.

3339
02:46:12,040 --> 02:46:15,320
Speaker 6: I think that's completely fair. Another of the key challenges

3340
02:46:15,440 --> 02:46:19,640
Speaker 6: is Republican in roads with working class of voters. This

3341
02:46:19,680 --> 02:46:21,880
Speaker 6: section has a typo, so it's kind of hard to read,

3342
02:46:22,600 --> 02:46:24,240
Speaker 6: but it essentially.

3343
02:46:23,800 --> 02:46:26,360
Speaker 1: States there there's so many typos, but.

3344
02:46:26,360 --> 02:46:29,800
Speaker 6: It essentially states that the Trump campaign targeted working class

3345
02:46:29,840 --> 02:46:35,720
Speaker 6: households with populas messaging which distracted from his anti worker record,

3346
02:46:36,440 --> 02:46:39,959
Speaker 6: and working class men, particularly manufacturing and construction, saw Trump

3347
02:46:40,040 --> 02:46:43,640
Speaker 6: as more aligned with their cultural values than Democratic candidates.

3348
02:46:44,480 --> 02:46:47,600
Speaker 6: To Kanezi's down, Democrats need to have a year round presence,

3349
02:46:47,640 --> 02:46:51,440
Speaker 6: more economic messaging, and address cost of living concerns that

3350
02:46:51,520 --> 02:46:56,280
Speaker 6: resonate more than quote unquote identity politics. This is kind

3351
02:46:56,280 --> 02:47:00,640
Speaker 6: of where the actual election analysis portion of the docum ends.

3352
02:47:01,400 --> 02:47:03,280
Speaker 6: The rest of the document is on how to more

3353
02:47:03,280 --> 02:47:09,320
Speaker 6: effectively spend campaign funds, debating door knocking versus text and

3354
02:47:09,400 --> 02:47:14,640
Speaker 6: phone banking, addressing dropping voter registration rates, comparing media and ads,

3355
02:47:14,640 --> 02:47:16,959
Speaker 6: spending digital versus TV ads.

3356
02:47:17,400 --> 02:47:19,320
Speaker 1: Is there anything interesting in those findings?

3357
02:47:19,879 --> 02:47:23,320
Speaker 6: No, not really, Okay, it's filling the page count. Like

3358
02:47:23,680 --> 02:47:26,760
Speaker 6: the Democrats got a lot of money. The problem isn't

3359
02:47:26,800 --> 02:47:30,320
Speaker 6: the funds. We have the funds. It's that there's small

3360
02:47:30,360 --> 02:47:34,119
Speaker 6: ways that you can use them better. And sure, yeah,

3361
02:47:34,440 --> 02:47:37,280
Speaker 6: but all of this is just treating the symptom, not

3362
02:47:37,400 --> 02:47:41,000
Speaker 6: the problem. The problem wasn't that you were spending more

3363
02:47:41,040 --> 02:47:44,560
Speaker 6: on digital and not enough on broadcast. The problem was

3364
02:47:44,600 --> 02:47:48,440
Speaker 6: the candidate and the message, not differences in ad spending.

3365
02:47:49,000 --> 02:47:52,680
Speaker 10: It's not that you you had ads running, it's that

3366
02:47:52,720 --> 02:47:56,640
Speaker 10: the ads you had running weren't connecting with the people.

3367
02:47:56,640 --> 02:47:59,600
Speaker 1: Whose votes you needed, the people that were going to

3368
02:47:59,680 --> 02:48:03,280
Speaker 1: vote for you already, that's who those ads were targeting to,

3369
02:48:03,920 --> 02:48:07,800
Speaker 1: as opposed to bringing in voters who were like, oh man,

3370
02:48:07,879 --> 02:48:08,879
Speaker 1: I'm really not sure.

3371
02:48:09,360 --> 02:48:13,160
Speaker 10: Trump was pretty bad last time, I'm on the fence here,

3372
02:48:13,680 --> 02:48:15,800
Speaker 10: or just for first time voters.

3373
02:48:15,520 --> 02:48:18,480
Speaker 6: The first time voter registration was was down significantly.

3374
02:48:19,040 --> 02:48:22,680
Speaker 10: Yeah, the fact that you ran ads in certain places,

3375
02:48:22,800 --> 02:48:25,840
Speaker 10: that was not the problem. No, you weren't advertising to

3376
02:48:25,959 --> 02:48:28,960
Speaker 10: the people that needed to be advertised too. Your messaging

3377
02:48:29,120 --> 02:48:29,560
Speaker 10: was wrong.

3378
02:48:29,800 --> 02:48:33,039
Speaker 6: And there's yeah, there's this more core issue that people

3379
02:48:33,040 --> 02:48:36,879
Speaker 6: did not get to actually pick the Democratic nominee, and

3380
02:48:36,920 --> 02:48:39,520
Speaker 6: the Democratic nominee had a lot of issues and direct

3381
02:48:39,560 --> 02:48:43,480
Speaker 6: ties to the many failures of the Biden administration, which

3382
02:48:43,480 --> 02:48:44,920
Speaker 6: brings us to our final section.

3383
02:48:44,680 --> 02:48:45,680
Speaker 1: Here, I'm afraid.

3384
02:48:46,600 --> 02:48:52,720
Speaker 6: Based on three polling studies, the campaign pollsters concluded that

3385
02:48:52,800 --> 02:48:55,720
Speaker 6: it was quote important for the vice president to find

3386
02:48:55,920 --> 02:48:59,520
Speaker 6: separation from the status quo. They recognized voters were looking

3387
02:48:59,520 --> 02:49:01,760
Speaker 6: for change and felt it was necessary to find ways

3388
02:49:01,760 --> 02:49:05,240
Speaker 6: to demonstrate how a Harris Wall's administration would be more

3389
02:49:05,280 --> 02:49:09,400
Speaker 6: effective in addressing American needs. The pollsters acknowledged the loyalty

3390
02:49:09,440 --> 02:49:13,320
Speaker 6: demonstrated by the Vice president, but also suggested it was

3391
02:49:13,440 --> 02:49:18,280
Speaker 6: contrary to strong signals in their data about how even

3392
02:49:18,400 --> 02:49:22,800
Speaker 6: measured breaks would help position the vice president to win unquote,

3393
02:49:23,520 --> 02:49:27,560
Speaker 6: and the Vice President Harris did not do these measured breaks.

3394
02:49:27,600 --> 02:49:31,000
Speaker 6: She remained extremely loyal to the legacy of the Biden

3395
02:49:31,040 --> 02:49:33,920
Speaker 6: administration while she was vice president and while she was

3396
02:49:33,959 --> 02:49:37,879
Speaker 6: campaigning for president in twenty twenty four. Now. These campaign

3397
02:49:37,920 --> 02:49:41,200
Speaker 6: posters were also part of discussions on how to respond

3398
02:49:41,480 --> 02:49:45,440
Speaker 6: to Trump attack ads. Quote. In particular, the attack ad

3399
02:49:45,480 --> 02:49:50,200
Speaker 6: focused on the Vice president's prior statements on transgendered Americans.

3400
02:49:50,320 --> 02:49:54,080
Speaker 6: You can't call them that, bro. They all recognized the

3401
02:49:54,120 --> 02:49:58,040
Speaker 6: attack as very effective and felt that campaign was boxed in.

3402
02:49:58,640 --> 02:50:00,440
Speaker 6: The ad was a video of her set saying what

3403
02:50:00,640 --> 02:50:03,360
Speaker 6: she said, and it was framed as an attack on

3404
02:50:03,400 --> 02:50:07,199
Speaker 6: her economic priorities. If the Vice president would not change

3405
02:50:07,200 --> 02:50:10,320
Speaker 6: her position, and she did not, then there was nothing

3406
02:50:10,520 --> 02:50:15,480
Speaker 6: which would have worked as a response quote. The polling

3407
02:50:15,480 --> 02:50:18,640
Speaker 6: sections also missing its conclusion but let's get into that

3408
02:50:18,720 --> 02:50:22,680
Speaker 6: a little bit more. Okay, Before the autopsy was released,

3409
02:50:22,920 --> 02:50:25,800
Speaker 6: Rob Flattery, I'm gonna say flattery. I don't know what

3410
02:50:25,840 --> 02:50:28,760
Speaker 6: it actually is, but I'm calling it flattery. He was

3411
02:50:28,840 --> 02:50:31,840
Speaker 6: Harris's deputy campaign manager, and he wrote an article in

3412
02:50:31,879 --> 02:50:35,920
Speaker 6: The Bulwark about what he said in his autopsy interview,

3413
02:50:36,280 --> 02:50:38,680
Speaker 6: also noting he was one of the few Harris staffers

3414
02:50:38,680 --> 02:50:42,280
Speaker 6: who was actually interviewed. Flattery argued the main issue the

3415
02:50:42,280 --> 02:50:46,160
Speaker 6: twenty twenty four campaign was branding, and he clarified that

3416
02:50:46,280 --> 02:50:50,240
Speaker 6: the Kamala Is for the Them ad was not actually

3417
02:50:50,280 --> 02:50:53,320
Speaker 6: the most effective attack ad according to campaign data. It

3418
02:50:53,400 --> 02:50:56,840
Speaker 6: was the Trump ad from July twenty twenty four, with

3419
02:50:56,920 --> 02:51:01,080
Speaker 6: clips of Harris saying that quote unquote, biden is working.

3420
02:51:01,800 --> 02:51:05,080
Speaker 6: Flattery wrote that quote The brilliance of the Trump team's

3421
02:51:05,120 --> 02:51:08,320
Speaker 6: ad strategy was that everything was a proof point that

3422
02:51:08,440 --> 02:51:12,440
Speaker 6: leveled up to a core narrative. She cares about liberal shit,

3423
02:51:12,680 --> 02:51:15,640
Speaker 6: not you, her position on immigrants. She's focused on the

3424
02:51:15,640 --> 02:51:19,720
Speaker 6: wrong thing, Harris talking about transprisoners, focused on the wrong thing,

3425
02:51:20,360 --> 02:51:23,760
Speaker 6: says Bidenomics is working. Focused on the wrong stuff. It

3426
02:51:23,800 --> 02:51:27,360
Speaker 6: was brands, not messages. The Trans ad worked because of

3427
02:51:27,400 --> 02:51:31,600
Speaker 6: what it implied, not what it's said. Unquote. Rob Flattery,

3428
02:51:31,840 --> 02:51:35,480
Speaker 6: like the autopsy, insists that there was no way to

3429
02:51:35,640 --> 02:51:39,119
Speaker 6: directly respond to the Kamala is for the them Trump

3430
02:51:39,160 --> 02:51:42,560
Speaker 6: is for you ad, claiming that they tested five to

3431
02:51:42,600 --> 02:51:46,000
Speaker 6: six response ads against ads about the economy, and the

3432
02:51:46,040 --> 02:51:50,080
Speaker 6: economy ones tested better. Quote. So, not wanting to make

3433
02:51:50,200 --> 02:51:52,840
Speaker 6: the fight about an issue we were losing, we talked

3434
02:51:52,840 --> 02:51:56,040
Speaker 6: about the economy more a literal rebuttal would have been

3435
02:51:56,080 --> 02:51:59,560
Speaker 6: a loser. I absolutely stand by this decision. Look at

3436
02:51:59,560 --> 02:52:02,279
Speaker 6: the twenty time twenty five elections in Virginia, where Republicans

3437
02:52:02,320 --> 02:52:05,720
Speaker 6: made trans issues the core of their advertising strategy. It

3438
02:52:05,800 --> 02:52:11,080
Speaker 6: failed because voters didn't find it relevant. Except that's exactly

3439
02:52:11,080 --> 02:52:14,360
Speaker 6: what Trump did with the they them ad. That was

3440
02:52:14,720 --> 02:52:18,080
Speaker 6: a big part of his ad strategy as well. So

3441
02:52:18,280 --> 02:52:22,760
Speaker 6: there's this sort of learned helplessness with how to address

3442
02:52:23,000 --> 02:52:25,520
Speaker 6: both like the trans issues, as well as the Israel

3443
02:52:25,560 --> 02:52:28,360
Speaker 6: Palestine stuff, which we'll get to in one second. Like

3444
02:52:28,800 --> 02:52:33,280
Speaker 6: Harris not seriously addressing that they them add also did

3445
02:52:33,320 --> 02:52:36,520
Speaker 6: not seem to help. And you don't need to run

3446
02:52:36,600 --> 02:52:41,160
Speaker 6: an ad directly opposing that slop, but through media appearances

3447
02:52:41,280 --> 02:52:45,000
Speaker 6: you can pull the old uno reverso while affirming that

3448
02:52:45,040 --> 02:52:47,080
Speaker 6: you'll stand up for the rights of all Americans, no

3449
02:52:47,160 --> 02:52:50,760
Speaker 6: matter their gender or race, and that includes making health

3450
02:52:50,760 --> 02:52:53,520
Speaker 6: care more affordable and more accessible. And it's Trump and

3451
02:52:53,560 --> 02:52:57,160
Speaker 6: the Republicans who are focusing on bullying a disadvantage small

3452
02:52:57,200 --> 02:53:00,360
Speaker 6: minority of Americans to distract from the fact that they

3453
02:53:00,440 --> 02:53:03,480
Speaker 6: have no real economic plan. You can talk about the

3454
02:53:03,520 --> 02:53:07,520
Speaker 6: economy while still standing up for trans people. It doesn't

3455
02:53:07,520 --> 02:53:10,600
Speaker 6: need to be the focus of your campaign, but it's

3456
02:53:10,600 --> 02:53:13,400
Speaker 6: sure as hell was a key focus of Trump's campaign,

3457
02:53:13,840 --> 02:53:17,400
Speaker 6: and you not addressing it did not help and contributed

3458
02:53:17,440 --> 02:53:21,119
Speaker 6: to real harm and negative polarization against trans people.

3459
02:53:21,800 --> 02:53:24,760
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean a trans person did not speak at

3460
02:53:24,800 --> 02:53:28,879
Speaker 10: the twenty twenty four DNC, which was weird and not normal.

3461
02:53:29,360 --> 02:53:32,440
Speaker 10: Trans people have spoken at many DNC conventions in the past,

3462
02:53:32,959 --> 02:53:36,440
Speaker 10: but in the twenty twenty four nope, and trans issues

3463
02:53:36,480 --> 02:53:40,560
Speaker 10: were barely even mentioned, largely absent.

3464
02:53:40,879 --> 02:53:42,600
Speaker 6: And like, it doesn't need to be a key issue,

3465
02:53:42,879 --> 02:53:45,920
Speaker 6: but the fact that Republicans made it a key issue

3466
02:53:46,240 --> 02:53:48,520
Speaker 6: means that it is worth addressing in some way and

3467
02:53:48,600 --> 02:53:50,959
Speaker 6: affirming that you will actually stand up for the rights

3468
02:53:51,000 --> 02:53:55,160
Speaker 6: of trans people beyond making very kind of vague, confusing

3469
02:53:55,200 --> 02:53:59,280
Speaker 6: statements like Commula made that she'll follow the law, which

3470
02:53:59,440 --> 02:54:02,840
Speaker 6: just does not make sense to anyone. This sort of

3471
02:54:03,080 --> 02:54:06,400
Speaker 6: learned helplessness around like not being able to address these issues.

3472
02:54:06,720 --> 02:54:09,800
Speaker 6: This is the same thing with Palestine. Yes, altering course

3473
02:54:09,959 --> 02:54:14,400
Speaker 6: is simply not considered possible, and in part with Palestine,

3474
02:54:14,640 --> 02:54:19,360
Speaker 6: because Harris was the vice president, Flattery wrote quote. Given

3475
02:54:19,400 --> 02:54:23,560
Speaker 6: the Biden administration's position, Gaza was an impossible issue to

3476
02:54:23,600 --> 02:54:28,359
Speaker 6: communicate around. Protesters drove coverage away from campaign events, Digital

3477
02:54:28,400 --> 02:54:32,080
Speaker 6: creators or even supporters were afraid to say anything nice

3478
02:54:32,080 --> 02:54:35,840
Speaker 6: about Biden because their comments sections would get rocked. For

3479
02:54:36,000 --> 02:54:39,119
Speaker 6: many voters, watching the horrific, painful footage out of Gaza,

3480
02:54:39,440 --> 02:54:42,760
Speaker 6: it became a moral question one we didn't have a

3481
02:54:42,879 --> 02:54:46,879
Speaker 6: good answer for in ways that may not be reflected

3482
02:54:46,920 --> 02:54:51,360
Speaker 6: in a poll. It meaningfully reduced enthusiasm. As one person

3483
02:54:51,360 --> 02:54:54,480
Speaker 6: from the campaign told me, we spent the entire election

3484
02:54:54,640 --> 02:54:57,160
Speaker 6: with a giant rotting fish around our necks.

3485
02:54:57,920 --> 02:55:00,160
Speaker 1: Is Joe Biden the giant rotting.

3486
02:55:00,879 --> 02:55:03,760
Speaker 6: Well no, I mean it's in part, yes, But like

3487
02:55:04,240 --> 02:55:07,039
Speaker 6: the genocide in Gaza, like like this, like you know,

3488
02:55:07,160 --> 02:55:08,600
Speaker 6: well documented mass death.

3489
02:55:08,760 --> 02:55:11,440
Speaker 10: They didn't let a Palestinian person speak at the DNC

3490
02:55:11,600 --> 02:55:14,400
Speaker 10: either they had. They had one panel on it which

3491
02:55:14,400 --> 02:55:18,240
Speaker 10: I attended. It was phenomenal. It was the largest attended

3492
02:55:18,640 --> 02:55:21,800
Speaker 10: panel of the convention. And then they refuse to let

3493
02:55:21,800 --> 02:55:23,279
Speaker 10: a Palestinian person speak.

3494
02:55:23,840 --> 02:55:26,520
Speaker 6: I mean, and even beyond just letting people speak, it's

3495
02:55:26,560 --> 02:55:29,720
Speaker 6: like there was no real plan to actually stop this

3496
02:55:29,840 --> 02:55:32,400
Speaker 6: from happening. Like you can you can cut off a Israel.

3497
02:55:32,440 --> 02:55:35,440
Speaker 6: You can't do serious things. You can you cannot send

3498
02:55:35,480 --> 02:55:37,760
Speaker 6: them weapons, you can take away weapons. You can do

3499
02:55:37,879 --> 02:55:41,959
Speaker 6: more things. As you've seen, America is not afraid to

3500
02:55:42,040 --> 02:55:45,640
Speaker 6: occupy territories in that region. You could literally invade and

3501
02:55:45,640 --> 02:55:48,280
Speaker 6: be like, no, you have to stop. But like the

3502
02:55:48,640 --> 02:55:53,000
Speaker 6: not being able to even consider that, you could have

3503
02:55:53,120 --> 02:55:57,440
Speaker 6: an answer for this moral question, you could just change

3504
02:55:57,480 --> 02:56:00,320
Speaker 6: your position, not being able to even consider that. The

3505
02:56:00,520 --> 02:56:04,760
Speaker 6: compounding difficulty of Harris being the VP role made this

3506
02:56:04,879 --> 02:56:09,039
Speaker 6: the giant rotting fish around the campaign's neck. Yeah, and

3507
02:56:09,080 --> 02:56:11,960
Speaker 6: the fact that the autopsy does not actually address this

3508
02:56:12,040 --> 02:56:15,840
Speaker 6: question and flattery does, I think is another damning indictment

3509
02:56:15,920 --> 02:56:19,560
Speaker 6: against the autopsy and its sheering competence of the deputy

3510
02:56:19,720 --> 02:56:24,480
Speaker 6: campaign manager himself acknowledging that this was a serious, a

3511
02:56:24,640 --> 02:56:29,560
Speaker 6: serious issue that meaningfully reduced enthusiasm. And like the whole

3512
02:56:29,600 --> 02:56:32,440
Speaker 6: deal in this Bulwark article is that politics is now

3513
02:56:32,480 --> 02:56:36,560
Speaker 6: about brands, not messages. And this is kind of silly, right,

3514
02:56:36,560 --> 02:56:39,840
Speaker 6: because these two things are related. Yeah, but the brand

3515
02:56:39,879 --> 02:56:42,640
Speaker 6: of the Harris campaign was largely defined as not being

3516
02:56:42,680 --> 02:56:45,840
Speaker 6: Trump and just being more of the same, which in

3517
02:56:45,879 --> 02:56:50,320
Speaker 6: twenty twenty four wasn't exactly great. No, another of Trump's

3518
02:56:50,320 --> 02:56:52,600
Speaker 6: main ads featured a clip of Harris saying that she

3519
02:56:52,680 --> 02:56:56,240
Speaker 6: wouldn't have done anything different from Biden. So the branding

3520
02:56:56,240 --> 02:57:01,040
Speaker 6: issue certainly wasn't helped by the campaign's unwillingness to sever

3521
02:57:01,200 --> 02:57:05,280
Speaker 6: ties with Biden and criticize his policy. No Flattery argues

3522
02:57:05,320 --> 02:57:07,960
Speaker 6: that would have been hard, if not impossible, because of

3523
02:57:08,040 --> 02:57:10,920
Speaker 6: Kamala's position as sitting vice president. If she doesn't go

3524
02:57:11,000 --> 02:57:13,879
Speaker 6: against Biden's policy, it puts fractures within the party and

3525
02:57:13,879 --> 02:57:17,720
Speaker 6: the White House itself. But also it would demonstrate how

3526
02:57:17,760 --> 02:57:21,760
Speaker 6: she effectively held no power as vice president. So there

3527
02:57:21,800 --> 02:57:24,200
Speaker 6: is these issues. But if you actually have principles that

3528
02:57:24,240 --> 02:57:26,400
Speaker 6: would not actually be an issue. You could just blaze

3529
02:57:26,440 --> 02:57:29,520
Speaker 6: through that. You could actually take the real correct stance

3530
02:57:30,000 --> 02:57:34,320
Speaker 6: on issues like Palestine, and acknowledged the massive failures that

3531
02:57:34,360 --> 02:57:37,800
Speaker 6: the administration had, and you are now going against the

3532
02:57:37,840 --> 02:57:41,240
Speaker 6: status quo of the administration despite being the vice president. Right,

3533
02:57:41,280 --> 02:57:44,560
Speaker 6: that could have been an option one that was just

3534
02:57:44,600 --> 02:57:46,720
Speaker 6: never actually considered for whatever reason.

3535
02:57:47,200 --> 02:57:51,160
Speaker 10: Right, I mean, statistically speaking, at that time, Joe Biden

3536
02:57:52,040 --> 02:57:54,880
Speaker 10: had a very low approval rating. And so you know,

3537
02:57:55,160 --> 02:57:59,439
Speaker 10: Kamala running as the pro Joe candidate doesn't really resonate

3538
02:57:59,680 --> 02:58:01,880
Speaker 10: with voters because they're unhappy.

3539
02:58:02,240 --> 02:58:05,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly right. And if your message is just more

3540
02:58:05,480 --> 02:58:08,000
Speaker 6: of the same, then it seems pretty easy for your

3541
02:58:08,200 --> 02:58:10,680
Speaker 6: opponents to define what your brand is.

3542
02:58:11,320 --> 02:58:13,720
Speaker 10: And whenever she tried to say, you know, I'm going

3543
02:58:13,800 --> 02:58:15,960
Speaker 10: to change this, I'm going to change that, they were like,

3544
02:58:16,760 --> 02:58:18,120
Speaker 10: but you're in office now.

3545
02:58:19,160 --> 02:58:24,800
Speaker 6: Like Harris herself did not actually campaign on like progressive

3546
02:58:24,800 --> 02:58:27,680
Speaker 6: immigration policies, She did not campaign on trends rights, she

3547
02:58:27,680 --> 02:58:32,360
Speaker 6: didn't campaign on identity politics. No, but in absence of

3548
02:58:32,440 --> 02:58:35,560
Speaker 6: a real message, it's all too easy to associate the

3549
02:58:35,600 --> 02:58:39,520
Speaker 6: campaign with the concerns of like liberal elites disconnected from

3550
02:58:39,520 --> 02:58:44,040
Speaker 6: the economic realities of most Americans, and her previous statements

3551
02:58:44,400 --> 02:58:47,400
Speaker 6: on Bidenomics and how she wouldn't have done anything differently

3552
02:58:47,879 --> 02:58:52,960
Speaker 6: absolutely compounded this. Flattery wrote that the campaign underestimated just

3553
02:58:53,000 --> 02:58:57,680
Speaker 6: how disillusioned people were and the widespread degree of anti institutionalism.

3554
02:58:58,200 --> 02:59:02,080
Speaker 6: But unlike the autopsy, he at least acknowledges Biden should

3555
02:59:02,080 --> 02:59:04,760
Speaker 6: have never have run for reelection in the first place,

3556
02:59:05,200 --> 02:59:08,200
Speaker 6: and that Democrats should have run a real primary, which

3557
02:59:08,240 --> 02:59:10,560
Speaker 6: would have provided an opportunity to actually address all of

3558
02:59:10,600 --> 02:59:16,160
Speaker 6: these issues about feeling tied to the death worshiping aspects

3559
02:59:16,200 --> 02:59:21,080
Speaker 6: of the Biden administration with Kamala being the VP. Yeah. Now,

3560
02:59:21,120 --> 02:59:24,279
Speaker 6: speaking of the autopsy, let's get to the final sections

3561
02:59:24,320 --> 02:59:27,080
Speaker 6: of the autopsy. Yeah. Near the end of the report,

3562
02:59:27,400 --> 02:59:32,200
Speaker 6: a paragraph reads, building to win requires new thinking, and

3563
02:59:32,240 --> 02:59:35,520
Speaker 6: building to last requires thinking about more than the next election.

3564
02:59:35,879 --> 02:59:39,520
Speaker 6: It requires finding the best way to connect with the

3565
02:59:39,640 --> 02:59:42,840
Speaker 6: right voters in the right places. And twenty twenty four

3566
02:59:42,879 --> 02:59:46,440
Speaker 6: has proven anything. There is enough money to do it

3567
02:59:46,520 --> 02:59:49,240
Speaker 6: all the right way. And that's kind of the end.

3568
02:59:49,560 --> 02:59:54,840
Speaker 6: That's not the conclusion of the report because the final

3569
02:59:54,879 --> 02:59:59,199
Speaker 6: conclusion section is left blank. Super it's missing as well,

3570
02:59:59,600 --> 03:00:02,200
Speaker 6: So that sentence is kind of the last piece of

3571
03:00:02,280 --> 03:00:06,320
Speaker 6: analysis because it actually has no conclusion. I think that's

3572
03:00:06,320 --> 03:00:10,279
Speaker 6: the perfect the perfect representation of what this report is

3573
03:00:10,280 --> 03:00:12,160
Speaker 6: is that it does not have a conclusion. It's literally

3574
03:00:12,160 --> 03:00:15,560
Speaker 6: missing the conclusion. There is very little you can actually

3575
03:00:15,640 --> 03:00:20,360
Speaker 6: take away from this report positively to improve election strategy

3576
03:00:20,400 --> 03:00:24,879
Speaker 6: going forward, because there is no conclusion anyway. That's the

3577
03:00:24,959 --> 03:00:28,920
Speaker 6: twenty twenty four autopsy that turns out was real, but

3578
03:00:29,040 --> 03:00:30,000
Speaker 6: was just really bad.

3579
03:00:30,600 --> 03:00:34,360
Speaker 1: And didn't address anything real.

3580
03:00:34,760 --> 03:00:37,920
Speaker 6: No, did not address what I would argue were the

3581
03:00:38,000 --> 03:00:42,760
Speaker 6: key issues affecting the campaign, Biden's decision to run again,

3582
03:00:42,959 --> 03:00:47,640
Speaker 6: his age, the lack of a primary, and Israel Palestine.

3583
03:00:47,760 --> 03:00:52,040
Speaker 10: Yeah, that and honestly, people like to choose their candidate

3584
03:00:52,800 --> 03:00:54,280
Speaker 10: in a democracy.

3585
03:00:53,760 --> 03:00:58,000
Speaker 1: Really, and this entire thing really.

3586
03:00:58,080 --> 03:01:02,840
Speaker 10: Is very frustrating because who knows when a nonsense male

3587
03:01:03,640 --> 03:01:06,160
Speaker 10: who will be the candidate again after that?

3588
03:01:08,120 --> 03:01:12,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, at this point, I think anyone who

3589
03:01:12,240 --> 03:01:16,320
Speaker 6: can address serious economic as well as these moral issues

3590
03:01:16,360 --> 03:01:19,520
Speaker 6: read like imperialism in the US military, it's going to

3591
03:01:19,760 --> 03:01:24,119
Speaker 6: serve a better chance. Yeah, because that is the situation

3592
03:01:24,280 --> 03:01:25,880
Speaker 6: we have we have found ourselves in.

3593
03:01:26,320 --> 03:01:31,039
Speaker 10: Yeah, the Democratic National Committee, it's a bummer.

3594
03:01:44,160 --> 03:01:46,480
Speaker 11: Hello everyone, and welcome to it could happen here. My

3595
03:01:46,600 --> 03:01:49,120
Speaker 11: name is Daniel Kurd. I'm a researcher and analyst of

3596
03:01:49,120 --> 03:01:52,760
Speaker 11: Arab and Tastinian politics, and today I'm joined by doctor Nagarazavi.

3597
03:01:53,400 --> 03:01:56,360
Speaker 11: She is a political anthropologist at the I'm going to

3598
03:01:56,400 --> 03:02:00,440
Speaker 11: get this right Massavar Rahmani Center for Iran and Persian

3599
03:02:00,440 --> 03:02:03,640
Speaker 11: Gulf Studies at Princeton University, and her work is on

3600
03:02:03,680 --> 03:02:07,359
Speaker 11: the role of think tanks in shaping US security policies towards.

3601
03:02:07,160 --> 03:02:08,600
Speaker 8: The Middle East and Iran specifically.

3602
03:02:09,280 --> 03:02:12,200
Speaker 11: And I've recently had the pleasure of being at a

3603
03:02:12,360 --> 03:02:15,920
Speaker 11: symposium with doctor Rosavi, and I thought she would be

3604
03:02:16,000 --> 03:02:19,120
Speaker 11: a really welcome viewpoint for our audience.

3605
03:02:19,280 --> 03:02:21,840
Speaker 8: Thank you for joining us, Thanks so much for having me.

3606
03:02:22,400 --> 03:02:26,039
Speaker 11: So, I think in regards to the war on Iran,

3607
03:02:26,720 --> 03:02:28,760
Speaker 11: there's been such a focus on the straight up her

3608
03:02:28,840 --> 03:02:32,480
Speaker 11: moves and the economic impact of that that conditions on

3609
03:02:32,520 --> 03:02:35,000
Speaker 11: the ground have really slipped from our radars. Like I

3610
03:02:35,040 --> 03:02:36,680
Speaker 11: don't see it as often, and I think I'm a

3611
03:02:36,760 --> 03:02:37,960
Speaker 11: very well plugged in person.

3612
03:02:38,520 --> 03:02:39,879
Speaker 8: So can we start there.

3613
03:02:39,920 --> 03:02:41,840
Speaker 11: Can you tell us more about the situation and what

3614
03:02:41,840 --> 03:02:44,080
Speaker 11: it's like for like the average Iranian right now?

3615
03:02:44,640 --> 03:02:46,680
Speaker 18: Yeah, thank you so much for leading with that, because

3616
03:02:46,680 --> 03:02:51,040
Speaker 18: I do think that is absolutely missing in not only

3617
03:02:51,840 --> 03:02:55,600
Speaker 18: mainstream media but in much of the policy discussions that

3618
03:02:55,720 --> 03:02:59,840
Speaker 18: both of us follow closely. It's very bad on like

3619
03:03:00,000 --> 03:03:06,120
Speaker 18: around for ordinary Iranians on all fronts. Economically, it is

3620
03:03:07,200 --> 03:03:11,720
Speaker 18: very dire at the moment. Inflation is now at unbelievably

3621
03:03:11,800 --> 03:03:17,400
Speaker 18: high rates. The level of damage that happened to the country,

3622
03:03:17,400 --> 03:03:20,400
Speaker 18: the physical damage cause a lot of people to lose

3623
03:03:20,480 --> 03:03:24,720
Speaker 18: their jobs, if not their lives, because they hit hospitals,

3624
03:03:24,800 --> 03:03:27,680
Speaker 18: they hit schools, they hit factories. These are places where

3625
03:03:27,680 --> 03:03:30,199
Speaker 18: people work, So now all of those.

3626
03:03:30,040 --> 03:03:31,280
Speaker 8: People are without a job.

3627
03:03:31,959 --> 03:03:36,760
Speaker 18: The cost of living again has skyrocketed. People who dependent

3628
03:03:36,840 --> 03:03:40,160
Speaker 18: on the internet somehow to do their work are also

3629
03:03:40,360 --> 03:03:43,040
Speaker 18: now out of a job because it's been the longest

3630
03:03:43,080 --> 03:03:47,720
Speaker 18: internet shut down in Iran's history at this point. So

3631
03:03:47,920 --> 03:03:52,199
Speaker 18: that's the economic aspect that implicates every single person inside

3632
03:03:52,240 --> 03:03:55,280
Speaker 18: iron at the moment. And we're hearing that even people

3633
03:03:55,360 --> 03:03:58,400
Speaker 18: can't exchange the dollar, so things are really really bad

3634
03:03:58,760 --> 03:04:01,640
Speaker 18: at this point. And then you add on the layer

3635
03:04:01,720 --> 03:04:04,200
Speaker 18: of the number of people who have been killed. By

3636
03:04:04,240 --> 03:04:08,080
Speaker 18: the latest count I think I saw seventeen hundred civilians

3637
03:04:08,080 --> 03:04:12,039
Speaker 18: have been killed. Three point five million Iranians were displaced,

3638
03:04:12,400 --> 03:04:14,920
Speaker 18: and this was mainly people trying to escape major city

3639
03:04:14,959 --> 03:04:18,480
Speaker 18: centers they went to areas that were very under resource

3640
03:04:18,879 --> 03:04:22,920
Speaker 18: and so they were also suffering from lack of water

3641
03:04:22,959 --> 03:04:26,800
Speaker 18: and electricity wherever they were going. Those people have now

3642
03:04:27,240 --> 03:04:31,360
Speaker 18: slowly been coming back to the major cities. Many more

3643
03:04:31,440 --> 03:04:34,240
Speaker 18: thousands of people were injured or Maine. And then of

3644
03:04:34,280 --> 03:04:39,760
Speaker 18: course the entire population has been terrorized by this war

3645
03:04:39,840 --> 03:04:43,680
Speaker 18: and the uncertainty of whether it's going to start again.

3646
03:04:43,800 --> 03:04:47,000
Speaker 18: I mean, the threats that Trump has given up until

3647
03:04:47,080 --> 03:04:50,520
Speaker 18: just a few hours ago, was at any moment the

3648
03:04:50,560 --> 03:04:53,600
Speaker 18: bombings could start again. And then lastly, I want to

3649
03:04:53,600 --> 03:04:56,880
Speaker 18: say in terms of I touched on the infrastructure, but

3650
03:04:57,400 --> 03:05:02,920
Speaker 18: they hit desalination plants, they hit hospitals, they hit oil depots.

3651
03:05:03,360 --> 03:05:06,640
Speaker 18: People's quality of life right now inside Iran is pretty bad.

3652
03:05:06,840 --> 03:05:07,320
Speaker 2: And then you.

3653
03:05:07,320 --> 03:05:12,280
Speaker 18: Layer onto that a now even more repressive government that

3654
03:05:12,400 --> 03:05:15,880
Speaker 18: has been executing people they accuse of being traders at

3655
03:05:16,000 --> 03:05:20,400
Speaker 18: unbelievable rates, a total clamp down on levels we haven't

3656
03:05:20,440 --> 03:05:25,080
Speaker 18: seen previously. So again, short story, it's very bad inside

3657
03:05:25,080 --> 03:05:25,840
Speaker 18: of Iran right now.

3658
03:05:26,560 --> 03:05:30,760
Speaker 11: Yeah, I really wanted to make sure that people got

3659
03:05:30,800 --> 03:05:33,760
Speaker 11: that full scope. You know, we forget that there's an

3660
03:05:33,800 --> 03:05:37,680
Speaker 11: internet blackout, We forget that Iranians have already dealt with

3661
03:05:38,040 --> 03:05:41,600
Speaker 11: such a repressive crackdown right before the war started. You know,

3662
03:05:41,640 --> 03:05:43,560
Speaker 11: like I want people to make the connection that like

3663
03:05:44,200 --> 03:05:47,720
Speaker 11: conditions are super super dire. You know, since you did

3664
03:05:47,879 --> 03:05:50,879
Speaker 11: mention that point, maybe we can elaborate a little bit.

3665
03:05:51,360 --> 03:05:55,480
Speaker 11: How do you think the Iranian regime is using this moment?

3666
03:05:55,560 --> 03:05:58,120
Speaker 11: I know, short term they are utilizing it to just

3667
03:05:58,120 --> 03:06:01,160
Speaker 11: crack down on any dissent, but how do you think

3668
03:06:01,240 --> 03:06:03,800
Speaker 11: it'll be used kind of medium and long term?

3669
03:06:04,560 --> 03:06:07,960
Speaker 18: Yeah, so, you know, in our line of work, it's

3670
03:06:08,000 --> 03:06:11,240
Speaker 18: always hard to make predictions, but we can use past

3671
03:06:11,520 --> 03:06:16,360
Speaker 18: experiences as a somewhat of a guide here. So just

3672
03:06:16,400 --> 03:06:19,840
Speaker 18: to remind your listeners, in January there was a major

3673
03:06:19,920 --> 03:06:23,160
Speaker 18: uprising of Iranians against their government and there was one

3674
03:06:23,200 --> 03:06:27,640
Speaker 18: of the most massive crackdowns since the nineteen eighties when

3675
03:06:27,680 --> 03:06:32,039
Speaker 18: there was massacre against political dissidents, and so going into this.

3676
03:06:32,040 --> 03:06:36,800
Speaker 19: War, there was already one of the most brutal crackdowns happening.

3677
03:06:37,600 --> 03:06:42,039
Speaker 18: And then what people who are much more knowledgeable about

3678
03:06:42,040 --> 03:06:46,480
Speaker 18: irans domestic politics are telling me is that the people

3679
03:06:46,480 --> 03:06:50,080
Speaker 18: who are essentially replacing the leaders that were killed by

3680
03:06:50,200 --> 03:06:55,640
Speaker 18: US Israeli strikes are more hardliner and are more aligned

3681
03:06:55,879 --> 03:07:01,360
Speaker 18: with the hard line factions of the IRGC Islamic Revolutionary

3682
03:07:01,360 --> 03:07:04,800
Speaker 18: Guard Corps, which is one branch of the military in

3683
03:07:04,840 --> 03:07:07,440
Speaker 18: Iran that is very, very powerful and is loyal to

3684
03:07:07,600 --> 03:07:10,160
Speaker 18: the Supreme Leader, who is now the son of the

3685
03:07:10,200 --> 03:07:13,320
Speaker 18: previous Supreme Leader who was killed on the first day

3686
03:07:13,320 --> 03:07:17,880
Speaker 18: of the war actually, and so using the last time

3687
03:07:18,280 --> 03:07:20,360
Speaker 18: Iran was at a war, which was in the Iran

3688
03:07:20,400 --> 03:07:23,800
Speaker 18: Iraq War, repression is going to get so much worse

3689
03:07:24,240 --> 03:07:28,400
Speaker 18: under war conditions because anyone who they don't like or

3690
03:07:28,440 --> 03:07:31,480
Speaker 18: who anyone who speaks out can then be made a

3691
03:07:31,520 --> 03:07:35,400
Speaker 18: trader and an enemy of the Iranian people, and so

3692
03:07:35,440 --> 03:07:40,800
Speaker 18: they can use warfare as the grounds to essentially go

3693
03:07:40,959 --> 03:07:43,360
Speaker 18: even further in their oppression. And that's what a lot

3694
03:07:43,400 --> 03:07:46,520
Speaker 18: of human rights activists and people on the ground are

3695
03:07:46,520 --> 03:07:47,119
Speaker 18: worried about.

3696
03:07:48,000 --> 03:07:50,640
Speaker 11: Yeah, I also read a really interesting article I'll put

3697
03:07:50,680 --> 03:07:55,200
Speaker 11: in the show notes about the popular mobilization that the

3698
03:07:55,240 --> 03:07:59,640
Speaker 11: Iranian regime has like really fostered over many years to

3699
03:07:59,680 --> 03:08:03,520
Speaker 11: revert ways, whether it's through inserting you know, their forces

3700
03:08:03,520 --> 03:08:07,879
Speaker 11: in universities or through particular kinds of cultural practices around

3701
03:08:07,879 --> 03:08:10,119
Speaker 11: like martyrs and things like that. So, like the Iranian

3702
03:08:10,160 --> 03:08:13,400
Speaker 11: regime is also kind of mobilizing its supporters in a

3703
03:08:13,440 --> 03:08:15,680
Speaker 11: way that I mean, obviously for people who like want

3704
03:08:15,680 --> 03:08:18,120
Speaker 11: democracy and freedom like this is this is the worst

3705
03:08:18,120 --> 03:08:20,400
Speaker 11: case scenario we as in the United States.

3706
03:08:21,000 --> 03:08:23,600
Speaker 8: I shouldn't take responsibility for that at all, but neither

3707
03:08:23,640 --> 03:08:25,920
Speaker 8: of us should. Yeah, neither really it's not.

3708
03:08:25,959 --> 03:08:28,879
Speaker 11: It's not our fault, but we really have you know,

3709
03:08:29,240 --> 03:08:31,800
Speaker 11: given the worst actors a huge victory.

3710
03:08:32,040 --> 03:08:34,519
Speaker 19: And also to that point, if you don't mind me jumping.

3711
03:08:34,240 --> 03:08:36,240
Speaker 8: In, yeah, yeah, of course, it's also you.

3712
03:08:36,200 --> 03:08:40,120
Speaker 19: Know, triggered nationalism among segments of the population. The war

3713
03:08:40,240 --> 03:08:41,240
Speaker 19: has made.

3714
03:08:41,040 --> 03:08:44,520
Speaker 18: Many people who were even protesting in January against the

3715
03:08:44,520 --> 03:08:47,720
Speaker 18: government now coming out and defending at least not the

3716
03:08:48,040 --> 03:08:50,920
Speaker 18: sovereignty of their country or the integrity of their country.

3717
03:08:51,080 --> 03:08:52,000
Speaker 8: I mean, makes sense.

3718
03:08:52,160 --> 03:08:57,120
Speaker 18: Yeah, So there's all these strange now alliances forming, and

3719
03:08:57,160 --> 03:09:00,400
Speaker 18: the government is actually playing some parts of it smartly,

3720
03:09:00,480 --> 03:09:05,160
Speaker 18: where you'll see them having women without hit job coming

3721
03:09:05,200 --> 03:09:09,960
Speaker 18: to pro government rallies and having a Lebanese woman singer's

3722
03:09:10,160 --> 03:09:12,959
Speaker 18: voice at their rallies, which, for those of you who

3723
03:09:13,040 --> 03:09:15,600
Speaker 18: don't know, women are not allowed to sing as solo

3724
03:09:16,040 --> 03:09:17,279
Speaker 18: artists in Iran.

3725
03:09:17,280 --> 03:09:18,400
Speaker 19: They can be part of a chorus.

3726
03:09:19,040 --> 03:09:23,600
Speaker 18: So they're also playing this interesting imaging game where they

3727
03:09:23,640 --> 03:09:27,400
Speaker 18: want to also show, look, we can also be open

3728
03:09:27,440 --> 03:09:31,879
Speaker 18: and inclusive at the same time that they're executing people

3729
03:09:31,920 --> 03:09:34,280
Speaker 18: at the highest rates since the nineteen eighties.

3730
03:09:35,280 --> 03:09:36,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm going to have to look for that video

3731
03:09:36,959 --> 03:09:51,800
Speaker 8: of the Lebanese singer. So we participated, both.

3732
03:09:51,680 --> 03:09:54,440
Speaker 11: Of us in a symposium at Princeton I think was

3733
03:09:54,440 --> 03:09:57,400
Speaker 11: titled like the Long Arch of Fascism. Very interesting set

3734
03:09:57,440 --> 03:10:01,200
Speaker 11: of presentations, and your presentation was about the different kind

3735
03:10:01,200 --> 03:10:04,440
Speaker 11: of political strands that facilitated this war underund So I

3736
03:10:04,560 --> 03:10:07,120
Speaker 11: just wanted to just start off with could you outline

3737
03:10:07,200 --> 03:10:09,720
Speaker 11: the argument of your presentation for our listeners.

3738
03:10:10,200 --> 03:10:10,520
Speaker 6: Yes.

3739
03:10:10,879 --> 03:10:15,440
Speaker 18: What I argued in the conference, which was fantastic and

3740
03:10:15,600 --> 03:10:18,000
Speaker 18: I really learned so much from your presentation as well,

3741
03:10:18,760 --> 03:10:21,600
Speaker 18: was the idea that this war was made possible in

3742
03:10:21,600 --> 03:10:27,199
Speaker 18: a sense because several different strands of fascism have come

3743
03:10:27,240 --> 03:10:30,400
Speaker 18: together in this moment. And I called it converging fascisms,

3744
03:10:31,120 --> 03:10:33,119
Speaker 18: just to go quickly through it, because I don't want

3745
03:10:33,160 --> 03:10:36,320
Speaker 18: to droll on and on. But the idea is that

3746
03:10:36,480 --> 03:10:40,800
Speaker 18: one of the core strands has been this growing anti

3747
03:10:40,920 --> 03:10:47,000
Speaker 18: Muslim sentiment that really goes across so many different fascist

3748
03:10:47,080 --> 03:10:49,520
Speaker 18: movements that we see, whether it's the far right in

3749
03:10:49,600 --> 03:10:53,000
Speaker 18: Europe here in the United States, Islamophobia is so central,

3750
03:10:53,000 --> 03:10:56,240
Speaker 18: and of course the shootings at the mosque in San

3751
03:10:56,280 --> 03:10:59,760
Speaker 18: Diego is just the latest of long string of violence

3752
03:11:00,400 --> 03:11:06,760
Speaker 18: the Hindutfa in India, anti Muslim sentiments racisms is central

3753
03:11:07,200 --> 03:11:09,280
Speaker 18: to the fascism that we see there. And then of

3754
03:11:09,320 --> 03:11:13,240
Speaker 18: course in Israel that's been a core element of their

3755
03:11:13,320 --> 03:11:18,480
Speaker 18: anti Palestinian racism generally, but also specifically anti Muslim racism.

3756
03:11:18,680 --> 03:11:21,760
Speaker 18: So that's kind of the big strand that I identified

3757
03:11:22,000 --> 03:11:24,959
Speaker 18: as coming together. And within that there's an inflection of

3758
03:11:25,000 --> 03:11:26,800
Speaker 18: anti Shia sentiment.

3759
03:11:27,120 --> 03:11:29,720
Speaker 19: And there's lots of scholars who have talked about.

3760
03:11:29,440 --> 03:11:33,440
Speaker 18: How really the anti Muslim project starts with the seventy

3761
03:11:33,520 --> 03:11:38,480
Speaker 18: nine Revolution, this like modern manifestation of it, and so

3762
03:11:38,520 --> 03:11:41,800
Speaker 18: it's always had this anti Shia sentiment to it.

3763
03:11:42,280 --> 03:11:44,560
Speaker 19: Inflection, Yeah, inflection, thank you.

3764
03:11:45,280 --> 03:11:48,840
Speaker 18: The second strand that I wanted to highlight was this

3765
03:11:49,160 --> 03:11:55,840
Speaker 18: white supremacy and aryanism, which is interesting because it actually

3766
03:11:56,600 --> 03:12:01,480
Speaker 18: loops in the far right of Iran in actors and

3767
03:12:01,560 --> 03:12:05,640
Speaker 18: Iranian diasporic actors in particular, those that are tied to

3768
03:12:06,360 --> 03:12:10,679
Speaker 18: the former Shah of Iran's son, Riza Pahavi.

3769
03:12:10,720 --> 03:12:15,480
Speaker 19: Who are really linking they're wanting to overthrow the regime

3770
03:12:15,520 --> 03:12:21,640
Speaker 19: in Iran to restoring this Aryan nation that existed before

3771
03:12:21,920 --> 03:12:23,360
Speaker 19: and this is their word, it's not mine.

3772
03:12:23,520 --> 03:12:27,640
Speaker 18: The Arab invasion of Islam, and this is really important

3773
03:12:27,680 --> 03:12:31,640
Speaker 18: for the far right movement that supported this invasion was

3774
03:12:31,680 --> 03:12:35,120
Speaker 18: this idea that they're going to save Iran from Islam,

3775
03:12:35,440 --> 03:12:39,920
Speaker 18: which again the Islamophobia, but also the racialized violence against

3776
03:12:40,040 --> 03:12:45,000
Speaker 18: Arabs in the region and particularly against Palestinians. There's this

3777
03:12:45,240 --> 03:12:50,480
Speaker 18: very strong anti Palestinian current in this movement that I'm

3778
03:12:50,480 --> 03:12:51,320
Speaker 18: talking about.

3779
03:12:51,160 --> 03:12:53,759
Speaker 19: Where they are actively recruiting.

3780
03:12:53,400 --> 03:12:58,400
Speaker 18: And aligning themselves with Israel in the genocide, which is

3781
03:12:58,600 --> 03:13:01,440
Speaker 18: so horrible. The third strand that I wanted to talk

3782
03:13:01,480 --> 03:13:06,440
Speaker 18: about was settler colonialism and nativism. And I think your

3783
03:13:06,760 --> 03:13:09,520
Speaker 18: listeners probably know enough about this, but this is essentially

3784
03:13:09,560 --> 03:13:14,520
Speaker 18: the bringing together of both the settler colonial violence that

3785
03:13:14,520 --> 03:13:17,000
Speaker 18: we see in Israel, the United States, Australia, et cetera,

3786
03:13:17,360 --> 03:13:22,000
Speaker 18: with the anti immigrant sentiment that has swept across much

3787
03:13:22,000 --> 03:13:26,560
Speaker 18: of the world, including places like South Africa. Then the

3788
03:13:26,600 --> 03:13:30,199
Speaker 18: next brand that I talk about is nostalgic paternalism.

3789
03:13:30,640 --> 03:13:33,160
Speaker 11: I call it that you always need a little bit

3790
03:13:33,200 --> 03:13:36,000
Speaker 11: of pictriarchy, right right, Yeah.

3791
03:13:35,760 --> 03:13:39,480
Speaker 18: And it's basically like the people who call Trump daddy.

3792
03:13:39,840 --> 03:13:43,959
Speaker 18: You know, this idea that we need some strong man

3793
03:13:44,000 --> 03:13:45,240
Speaker 18: in our lives, and like.

3794
03:13:45,240 --> 03:13:46,640
Speaker 19: Egyptians have this with CC.

3795
03:13:47,440 --> 03:13:49,480
Speaker 18: You know this this idea that we just need this

3796
03:13:49,640 --> 03:13:56,160
Speaker 18: strong man to guide us forward is so dominant in

3797
03:13:56,320 --> 03:13:58,080
Speaker 18: a lot of these fascist groups.

3798
03:13:58,360 --> 03:14:01,840
Speaker 19: Mody is somebody's you know, paternal figure.

3799
03:14:01,920 --> 03:14:06,680
Speaker 18: And again, Razapadavi, the self proclaimed leader of the Iranian

3800
03:14:07,320 --> 03:14:12,240
Speaker 18: opposition in exile, has numerous times called himself the father

3801
03:14:12,560 --> 03:14:16,800
Speaker 18: of the Iranian people, and he's used really cringe language

3802
03:14:16,879 --> 03:14:19,800
Speaker 18: around how Iran is this abused woman and he's going

3803
03:14:19,879 --> 03:14:23,000
Speaker 18: to come in and save it, and completely out of

3804
03:14:23,080 --> 03:14:26,879
Speaker 18: touch with this amazing feminist movement that came out of

3805
03:14:26,920 --> 03:14:31,080
Speaker 18: Iran organically in twenty twenty two called the woman Like

3806
03:14:31,160 --> 03:14:35,880
Speaker 18: Freedom movement. He's put himself in direct opposition against that movement,

3807
03:14:35,920 --> 03:14:39,600
Speaker 18: which is wild to think about. And then the last

3808
03:14:40,080 --> 03:14:42,920
Speaker 18: kind of fascist strand that I identified, and this really

3809
03:14:42,920 --> 03:14:45,600
Speaker 18: also links to Naomi Klein's work, who was also at

3810
03:14:45,640 --> 03:14:50,600
Speaker 18: the conference, are these techno fascists and that's like the pallinteers,

3811
03:14:50,920 --> 03:14:56,160
Speaker 18: the anthropic dystopian future that a lot of these techno

3812
03:14:56,240 --> 03:14:59,400
Speaker 18: bros want to impose on the world that is very

3813
03:14:59,400 --> 03:15:04,640
Speaker 18: anti and so all of these strands come together at

3814
03:15:04,640 --> 03:15:09,280
Speaker 18: this very particular moment to justify and advance a war

3815
03:15:09,720 --> 03:15:12,279
Speaker 18: that some actors have wanted for a long time.

3816
03:15:12,640 --> 03:15:13,640
Speaker 6: And I say that it's.

3817
03:15:13,680 --> 03:15:16,119
Speaker 18: Kind of the blending of these at this particular moment

3818
03:15:16,200 --> 03:15:17,360
Speaker 18: that enabled this war.

3819
03:15:18,040 --> 03:15:22,560
Speaker 11: Yeah, I think the convergence is an apt description. And

3820
03:15:22,640 --> 03:15:26,240
Speaker 11: yet especially the patriarchal stuff, like cringe is the right word,

3821
03:15:26,480 --> 03:15:31,000
Speaker 11: Like it's extremely cringe, but also you know, dangerous that

3822
03:15:31,200 --> 03:15:35,520
Speaker 11: all of these things are coming together to facilitate this

3823
03:15:35,680 --> 03:15:38,480
Speaker 11: kind of violence, and then the war in Iran is

3824
03:15:38,520 --> 03:15:42,760
Speaker 11: facilitating the expansion of fascism here and vice versa. I

3825
03:15:42,800 --> 03:15:45,720
Speaker 11: wanted to just kind of get your opinion of something.

3826
03:15:46,000 --> 03:15:47,840
Speaker 11: I read this article by most of a by Umi

3827
03:15:47,840 --> 03:15:51,640
Speaker 11: in The Guardian about how in the United States what

3828
03:15:51,760 --> 03:15:57,400
Speaker 11: actually drives Islamophobia is at its root Antipastinian racism. I mean,

3829
03:15:57,400 --> 03:15:59,600
Speaker 11: and you certainly you know in your presentation talked about

3830
03:15:59,600 --> 03:16:03,160
Speaker 11: that and as well in the Iranian context, is the

3831
03:16:03,200 --> 03:16:07,880
Speaker 11: anti Palestinian racism kind of tangential to the kind of broader,

3832
03:16:08,200 --> 03:16:09,439
Speaker 11: racialized a Islamophobia.

3833
03:16:10,080 --> 03:16:11,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, how would you see that?

3834
03:16:11,879 --> 03:16:14,200
Speaker 18: Yeah, No, I agree to a large extent of it.

3835
03:16:14,280 --> 03:16:20,279
Speaker 18: Biomi is saying, I think anti Palestinian racism is central

3836
03:16:20,600 --> 03:16:26,119
Speaker 18: to how the opposition in Iran views itself. This hasn't

3837
03:16:26,200 --> 03:16:29,320
Speaker 18: been helped by the fact that the Iranian government, the

3838
03:16:29,400 --> 03:16:35,080
Speaker 18: current Iranian government has been at least materially and ideologically

3839
03:16:35,600 --> 03:16:39,360
Speaker 18: one of the biggest supporters of Palestinian liberation and has

3840
03:16:39,560 --> 03:16:43,000
Speaker 18: used the issue as many other dictators in the region have,

3841
03:16:43,160 --> 03:16:47,199
Speaker 18: by the way, has used the issue to actually suppress

3842
03:16:47,240 --> 03:16:50,040
Speaker 18: and oppress their own people. And so for a long

3843
03:16:50,200 --> 03:16:54,240
Speaker 18: time there was this sentiment inside Iran that the Iranian

3844
03:16:54,280 --> 03:16:58,800
Speaker 18: government is sending its resources, sending its weapons, making Uran

3845
03:16:59,160 --> 03:17:04,520
Speaker 18: an isolated rogue state on behalf of the Palestinians, while we,

3846
03:17:04,879 --> 03:17:09,119
Speaker 18: the Iranian people suffer, And so this created this people

3847
03:17:09,200 --> 03:17:15,240
Speaker 18: the people tension where anti Palestinian sentiment grew inside Iran

3848
03:17:15,760 --> 03:17:19,160
Speaker 18: and outside Iran obviously in these in these fascist movements,

3849
03:17:19,560 --> 03:17:22,840
Speaker 18: and then that feeds back into the Islamophobia is idea

3850
03:17:23,000 --> 03:17:26,640
Speaker 18: that we have nothing in common with the Palestinians because

3851
03:17:26,640 --> 03:17:29,880
Speaker 18: they're part of a religion that has also oppressed us,

3852
03:17:29,959 --> 03:17:33,640
Speaker 18: or a part of a ethnic group that has oppressed us.

3853
03:17:34,120 --> 03:17:36,680
Speaker 19: So it's its feedback loop. That's pretty horrible.

3854
03:17:37,040 --> 03:17:39,640
Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, that's good that we outline kind of

3855
03:17:39,680 --> 03:17:43,360
Speaker 11: the different mechanisms there. And it's really you know, it's

3856
03:17:43,400 --> 03:17:47,400
Speaker 11: it's so unfortunate because like you see polling of like Palestinians,

3857
03:17:47,560 --> 03:17:50,920
Speaker 11: and Palestinians were very much against what the Iranian regime

3858
03:17:50,959 --> 03:17:54,000
Speaker 11: did in Syria for example. Yeah, but like you said,

3859
03:17:54,120 --> 03:17:58,320
Speaker 11: there's a weaponization of these these different causes, just like

3860
03:17:58,360 --> 03:18:01,080
Speaker 11: the United States weaponizes the woman life freedom movement.

3861
03:18:01,680 --> 03:18:04,359
Speaker 8: You know, every regime uses things for its benefit.

3862
03:18:05,080 --> 03:18:08,120
Speaker 18: Just to add, like a slightly hopeful note is that

3863
03:18:08,200 --> 03:18:11,480
Speaker 18: I actually think the experience of this war has actually

3864
03:18:11,640 --> 03:18:17,520
Speaker 18: made more thoughtful Iranians see more of themselves now in

3865
03:18:17,560 --> 03:18:21,560
Speaker 18: the struggle of Palestinians. Interesting because they are actually seeing

3866
03:18:22,200 --> 03:18:26,200
Speaker 18: the hollowness and hypocrisy of what the US and Israel

3867
03:18:26,440 --> 03:18:30,600
Speaker 18: say and do, and so now I think there's been

3868
03:18:30,640 --> 03:18:32,959
Speaker 18: a little bit of a shift back in the direction

3869
03:18:33,160 --> 03:18:35,480
Speaker 18: of solidarity with the Palestinians.

3870
03:18:35,560 --> 03:18:37,320
Speaker 8: Oh that's excellent to hear.

3871
03:18:39,400 --> 03:18:40,880
Speaker 11: You know, we could talk about this all day, Like

3872
03:18:40,920 --> 03:18:44,120
Speaker 11: there's such a disconnect between diasporas and what happens on

3873
03:18:44,160 --> 03:18:44,600
Speaker 11: the ground.

3874
03:18:44,720 --> 03:18:47,200
Speaker 8: And this is not specific to the Iranians.

3875
03:18:46,680 --> 03:18:50,680
Speaker 11: But I imagine even if you lean that way, but

3876
03:18:50,720 --> 03:18:53,560
Speaker 11: you're in Iran being bombed by Israel, that's going to

3877
03:18:53,640 --> 03:18:55,240
Speaker 11: change your opinion in a way that like if you're

3878
03:18:55,240 --> 03:18:57,400
Speaker 11: in Los Angeles waving is Reelly flag, it's.

3879
03:18:57,200 --> 03:19:00,160
Speaker 8: A little bit different. Solutely, there's kind of stakes there.

3880
03:19:00,879 --> 03:19:03,880
Speaker 18: Yeah, yeah, you're like, who's the one dropping the bombs exactly?

3881
03:19:04,080 --> 03:19:04,480
Speaker 19: Yeah.

3882
03:19:04,560 --> 03:19:07,440
Speaker 11: Yeah, that is actually a very hopeful note before I

3883
03:19:07,440 --> 03:19:20,080
Speaker 11: turn into a less hopeful one. So your research is on,

3884
03:19:20,520 --> 03:19:22,320
Speaker 11: as I said earlier, like kind of the think tank

3885
03:19:22,440 --> 03:19:25,840
Speaker 11: landscape in DC. I remember, by the way, finding out

3886
03:19:25,879 --> 03:19:28,160
Speaker 11: about you back in the heydays of Twitter and being

3887
03:19:28,200 --> 03:19:32,200
Speaker 11: like somebody's studying think tanks, Like that's so cool, that's

3888
03:19:32,240 --> 03:19:34,280
Speaker 11: so clever, Like, yes, we should be studying them in

3889
03:19:34,320 --> 03:19:36,959
Speaker 11: this way. And basically, like your research is like the

3890
03:19:37,040 --> 03:19:39,560
Speaker 11: types of knowledge and the sources of knowledge that become

3891
03:19:39,600 --> 03:19:42,640
Speaker 11: hegemonic in these spaces, and then that of course impact

3892
03:19:42,680 --> 03:19:46,040
Speaker 11: American policy. So could you I know this is kind

3893
03:19:46,080 --> 03:19:47,640
Speaker 11: of a hard ask, but could you tell us like

3894
03:19:47,680 --> 03:19:50,800
Speaker 11: some basic findings of of your research the past couple

3895
03:19:50,840 --> 03:19:51,199
Speaker 11: of years.

3896
03:19:51,520 --> 03:19:54,480
Speaker 18: Yeah, so thanks for that setup, because I actually have

3897
03:19:54,560 --> 03:19:56,600
Speaker 18: a book coming out on this and it's called The

3898
03:19:56,640 --> 03:20:01,720
Speaker 18: Geopolitics of Expertise, and that's one of the central findings

3899
03:20:02,280 --> 03:20:06,440
Speaker 18: of the book is that this think tank landscape needs

3900
03:20:06,480 --> 03:20:09,360
Speaker 18: to be understood as a transnational space. That's one of

3901
03:20:09,360 --> 03:20:14,080
Speaker 18: the key findings in which a lot of actors and stakeholders,

3902
03:20:14,520 --> 03:20:19,240
Speaker 18: especially from the Middle East or Swana region, are invested

3903
03:20:19,400 --> 03:20:23,280
Speaker 18: in shaping the narrative from the inside out. And this

3904
03:20:23,400 --> 03:20:27,280
Speaker 18: is something that I think traditional models of understanding US Empire,

3905
03:20:27,360 --> 03:20:31,120
Speaker 18: for example, failed in understanding, which is that you know,

3906
03:20:31,240 --> 03:20:36,160
Speaker 18: when you have Arab Gulf States, or Turkey or Morocco

3907
03:20:36,720 --> 03:20:42,360
Speaker 18: or Israel invested in ensuring the debate in Washington is

3908
03:20:42,640 --> 03:20:46,240
Speaker 18: shaped in a particular way that meets their interest, which

3909
03:20:46,280 --> 03:20:49,840
Speaker 18: is not always aligned with the US. They're going to

3910
03:20:49,920 --> 03:20:53,920
Speaker 18: throw millions of dollars into think tanks to essentially shape

3911
03:20:53,959 --> 03:20:57,800
Speaker 18: what I call the common sense on any number of issues,

3912
03:20:58,480 --> 03:21:02,800
Speaker 18: and so they are co constructing the imperial imagination and

3913
03:21:02,840 --> 03:21:05,280
Speaker 18: this is one of the key findings. And then when

3914
03:21:05,280 --> 03:21:09,360
Speaker 18: it comes to Iran in particular, they paradoxically want to

3915
03:21:09,480 --> 03:21:13,240
Speaker 18: ensure that Iran remains an unknowable enemy.

3916
03:21:13,920 --> 03:21:16,000
Speaker 19: That's the other key piece of the book.

3917
03:21:16,040 --> 03:21:20,680
Speaker 18: It's just that this constructed unknowability is key to ensuring

3918
03:21:20,760 --> 03:21:24,279
Speaker 18: that the US maintains a posture of confrontation with Iran.

3919
03:21:24,840 --> 03:21:27,160
Speaker 18: And that means that you want to have this enemy

3920
03:21:27,560 --> 03:21:30,720
Speaker 18: that you can never fully figure out, or this enemy

3921
03:21:30,959 --> 03:21:33,680
Speaker 18: that's always unpredictable, this enemy that.

3922
03:21:33,840 --> 03:21:35,120
Speaker 4: Never follows the rules.

3923
03:21:35,160 --> 03:21:41,800
Speaker 18: Because if you had a predictable, rational enemy, you'd eventually

3924
03:21:41,879 --> 03:21:44,720
Speaker 18: have to make some type of peace with them, because

3925
03:21:44,720 --> 03:21:48,959
Speaker 18: that's actually the rational course of action. But when you

3926
03:21:49,000 --> 03:21:52,440
Speaker 18: have weapons manufacturers, when you have foreign governments, when you

3927
03:21:52,480 --> 03:21:56,000
Speaker 18: have all kinds of interests shaping the debate in Washington,

3928
03:21:56,280 --> 03:22:00,000
Speaker 18: you don't actually do what's quote unquote the rational policy

3929
03:22:00,240 --> 03:22:04,760
Speaker 18: for US national security interests as narrowly defined. So sorry

3930
03:22:04,800 --> 03:22:08,879
Speaker 18: if that was too rambly of an explanation of the book.

3931
03:22:08,680 --> 03:22:09,960
Speaker 8: But no, not at all.

3932
03:22:10,720 --> 03:22:12,520
Speaker 11: I mean it's interesting because we come at it from

3933
03:22:12,560 --> 03:22:15,960
Speaker 11: different disciplines. You know, I'm a political scientist, and in

3934
03:22:16,000 --> 03:22:20,000
Speaker 11: the international relations landscape, there was you know, well, first

3935
03:22:20,040 --> 03:22:23,000
Speaker 11: and foremost, like American Empire is not really recognized in

3936
03:22:23,040 --> 03:22:26,240
Speaker 11: like American political science, but there was this argument that

3937
03:22:26,320 --> 03:22:28,760
Speaker 11: percolated and like I remember going to grad school and

3938
03:22:29,040 --> 03:22:32,640
Speaker 11: learning this is that, like the United States is hegemonic

3939
03:22:32,800 --> 03:22:34,840
Speaker 11: and we can like study hierarchy, and there have been

3940
03:22:35,000 --> 03:22:38,240
Speaker 11: more political scientists who have studied like global hierarchies. But

3941
03:22:38,320 --> 03:22:41,119
Speaker 11: it's a liberal hegemon and it can't be considered an

3942
03:22:41,120 --> 03:22:46,720
Speaker 11: empire because it does provide these voice opportunities for our

3943
03:22:46,840 --> 03:22:50,720
Speaker 11: subordinates essentially to come and shape policy interest and so

3944
03:22:50,760 --> 03:22:53,240
Speaker 11: it's an interesting not a flip on its head, but

3945
03:22:53,280 --> 03:22:55,920
Speaker 11: it's like a kind of a nuancing of that argument

3946
03:22:56,000 --> 03:22:59,200
Speaker 11: here is like yeah, they are here and they are

3947
03:22:59,720 --> 03:23:05,280
Speaker 11: shape policy and shaping kind of US empire, which I think,

3948
03:23:05,400 --> 03:23:08,080
Speaker 11: you know, poses some questions about like the agency of

3949
03:23:08,120 --> 03:23:11,400
Speaker 11: these actors of course, but also like what is the

3950
03:23:11,440 --> 03:23:14,200
Speaker 11: broader project of US empire? Like, yeah, we don't need

3951
03:23:14,240 --> 03:23:15,440
Speaker 11: to think of it all the time. Is like kind

3952
03:23:15,440 --> 03:23:16,480
Speaker 11: of top down in.

3953
03:23:16,400 --> 03:23:17,800
Speaker 19: A way, exactly.

3954
03:23:17,840 --> 03:23:21,200
Speaker 11: There's lots of actors implicated or coherent.

3955
03:23:21,040 --> 03:23:23,959
Speaker 18: Or you right or right or you know, even the

3956
03:23:23,959 --> 03:23:26,800
Speaker 18: Iran war is a clear example, right, there's been winners

3957
03:23:26,840 --> 03:23:29,560
Speaker 18: and losers, as people in DC like to say.

3958
03:23:29,640 --> 03:23:30,280
Speaker 8: Of this war.

3959
03:23:30,800 --> 03:23:35,600
Speaker 18: Oil companies are reaping the greatest profits of like the

3960
03:23:35,680 --> 03:23:39,960
Speaker 18: last decade because of this war, because of the shortages

3961
03:23:40,000 --> 03:23:44,040
Speaker 18: coming through the strait of hormones. Weapons manufacturers are doing

3962
03:23:44,080 --> 03:23:48,600
Speaker 18: really well right now. Private equity and AI are doing well.

3963
03:23:49,080 --> 03:23:52,520
Speaker 18: But the damages that we are now seeing coming out

3964
03:23:52,560 --> 03:23:56,840
Speaker 18: of the production side across the Gulf, including inside Iran,

3965
03:23:57,400 --> 03:24:01,000
Speaker 18: is going to have very long term detrimental effects for

3966
03:24:01,080 --> 03:24:04,000
Speaker 18: all of these same industries. Paradoxically, but in the short

3967
03:24:04,080 --> 03:24:07,760
Speaker 18: term they're winning. Meanwhile everybody else is losing. Food prices

3968
03:24:07,760 --> 03:24:10,440
Speaker 18: are going up, gas prices are going up. I have

3969
03:24:10,480 --> 03:24:13,400
Speaker 18: a friend who works in research with helium. There's no

3970
03:24:13,520 --> 03:24:16,119
Speaker 18: helium in the world right now. So if you want

3971
03:24:16,160 --> 03:24:18,879
Speaker 18: to go get an MRI, good luck, because there's not

3972
03:24:19,080 --> 03:24:19,680
Speaker 18: much healium.

3973
03:24:19,680 --> 03:24:21,720
Speaker 19: Most of it comes out of this one facility in Kutar.

3974
03:24:22,240 --> 03:24:24,520
Speaker 11: And I was just reading an article about how Tata

3975
03:24:24,560 --> 03:24:27,560
Speaker 11: has lost so many billions of dollars as a result

3976
03:24:27,680 --> 03:24:29,520
Speaker 11: of this war, as a result of the attacks on

3977
03:24:29,560 --> 03:24:30,800
Speaker 11: some of its facilities.

3978
03:24:31,240 --> 03:24:32,879
Speaker 8: And it's like doh has a ghost town.

3979
03:24:33,120 --> 03:24:35,119
Speaker 11: And I used to live in Doha, and for anybody

3980
03:24:35,160 --> 03:24:36,920
Speaker 11: who has you know, been there or whatever, I mean,

3981
03:24:37,440 --> 03:24:40,720
Speaker 11: like at its best is a ghost town. Like often

3982
03:24:40,760 --> 03:24:42,200
Speaker 11: it is a ghost town. If it's not like a

3983
03:24:42,200 --> 03:24:45,080
Speaker 11: busy season. So, like, what even does it mean that

3984
03:24:45,240 --> 03:24:48,039
Speaker 11: these places? I can't even fathom what's going to happen

3985
03:24:48,080 --> 03:24:50,040
Speaker 11: long term given the impact of this war.

3986
03:24:50,320 --> 03:24:53,039
Speaker 8: And that was with just sixty days of war, right, Yeah,

3987
03:24:53,080 --> 03:24:53,680
Speaker 8: so we don't.

3988
03:24:53,520 --> 03:24:55,879
Speaker 19: Know it's in such a short amount of time. The

3989
03:24:55,959 --> 03:24:58,279
Speaker 19: amount of damage it caused is unbelievable.

3990
03:24:58,800 --> 03:25:02,640
Speaker 11: Yeah, Like you said, it's good to start to disentangle

3991
03:25:03,879 --> 03:25:07,199
Speaker 11: who's benefiting in service of which actors?

3992
03:25:07,240 --> 03:25:09,360
Speaker 8: Here are we attacking Iran?

3993
03:25:09,720 --> 03:25:12,920
Speaker 11: Yeah, and this is like the most corrupt administration imaginable.

3994
03:25:13,280 --> 03:25:16,160
Speaker 11: It really is like kind of breathtaking the level of corruption.

3995
03:25:16,280 --> 03:25:20,120
Speaker 11: So yeah, hopefully, you know, historians and political scientists and

3996
03:25:20,280 --> 03:25:24,039
Speaker 11: political anthropologists will have years and years of research to

3997
03:25:24,120 --> 03:25:27,840
Speaker 11: study this moment. All right, Well, is there anything else

3998
03:25:27,879 --> 03:25:30,000
Speaker 11: you think people should keep an eye on when it

3999
03:25:30,000 --> 03:25:32,760
Speaker 11: comes to the situation in Iran moving forward?

4000
03:25:32,879 --> 03:25:36,760
Speaker 19: I think we need to be much more critical about

4001
03:25:36,879 --> 03:25:41,440
Speaker 19: who is shaping the narrative on Iran moving forward. A

4002
03:25:41,480 --> 03:25:44,760
Speaker 19: lot of the figures who are now disavowing the war

4003
03:25:45,240 --> 03:25:47,960
Speaker 19: in these thing tanks and saying, you know, war was

4004
03:25:48,000 --> 03:25:51,440
Speaker 19: such a bad idea. Trump fumbled it and this was

4005
03:25:51,480 --> 03:25:55,800
Speaker 19: a terrible idea. Had essentially been i say, hedging.

4006
03:25:55,680 --> 03:25:58,080
Speaker 18: For this war for a long time, which is that

4007
03:25:58,440 --> 03:26:02,160
Speaker 18: by constructing Iran as this enemy, you can't negotiate with

4008
03:26:02,240 --> 03:26:02,920
Speaker 18: an enemy that.

4009
03:26:02,879 --> 03:26:03,800
Speaker 19: You can never predict.

4010
03:26:04,160 --> 03:26:07,600
Speaker 18: You can never negotiate with an enemy that lies about everything.

4011
03:26:07,600 --> 03:26:10,200
Speaker 18: These are the narratives that these Iran experts have been

4012
03:26:10,240 --> 03:26:13,720
Speaker 18: advancing for years, and now we're expected to go and

4013
03:26:13,760 --> 03:26:16,119
Speaker 18: turn back to that same group to get us out

4014
03:26:16,200 --> 03:26:18,520
Speaker 18: of this mess. And that's what I'm going to urge

4015
03:26:18,560 --> 03:26:21,600
Speaker 18: all of the listeners is be much more critical about

4016
03:26:21,680 --> 03:26:25,680
Speaker 18: who is analyzing Iran in such a moment. Look at

4017
03:26:25,760 --> 03:26:28,560
Speaker 18: who they work for, look at what types of analysis

4018
03:26:28,560 --> 03:26:31,400
Speaker 18: they've done in the past, How do they access the Iran,

4019
03:26:31,760 --> 03:26:34,320
Speaker 18: How do they know what they know about Iran? It

4020
03:26:34,440 --> 03:26:37,560
Speaker 18: sometimes takes five extra minutes when you're reading a New

4021
03:26:37,640 --> 03:26:41,160
Speaker 18: York Times piece to just go through and highlight who

4022
03:26:41,200 --> 03:26:42,800
Speaker 18: they're quoting as experts.

4023
03:26:42,840 --> 03:26:45,680
Speaker 19: For example, and New York Times says all kinds of problems, but.

4024
03:26:45,600 --> 03:26:49,360
Speaker 18: Pick whatever Wall Street Journal, Foreign Affairs, foreign policies, and

4025
03:26:49,520 --> 03:26:53,520
Speaker 18: just do five minutes of due diligence on who that

4026
03:26:53,800 --> 03:26:56,160
Speaker 18: piece is citing as an expert on Iran.

4027
03:26:56,200 --> 03:26:58,400
Speaker 19: And that's my key takeaway for people.

4028
03:26:59,400 --> 03:27:01,800
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's such a good takeaway.

4029
03:27:02,080 --> 03:27:04,280
Speaker 11: I mean, I think there's so many aspects of our

4030
03:27:04,320 --> 03:27:07,760
Speaker 11: politics in which people are trying to convince us the

4031
03:27:07,840 --> 03:27:11,039
Speaker 11: same people who got us into these messes are like

4032
03:27:11,440 --> 03:27:14,920
Speaker 11: all we have like Democratic party operatives that like led

4033
03:27:15,000 --> 03:27:18,080
Speaker 11: us to Trump exactly are the ones like now pretending

4034
03:27:18,160 --> 03:27:21,240
Speaker 11: they really dislike the genocide and Gaza and whatever. And

4035
03:27:21,280 --> 03:27:23,760
Speaker 11: it's the same thing these Iranian experts. They're not even Iranian.

4036
03:27:23,879 --> 03:27:28,120
Speaker 11: Sometimes it's just Iran experts claiming expertise. And it's like

4037
03:27:28,560 --> 03:27:31,040
Speaker 11: the way that you have shaped this discussion is why

4038
03:27:31,040 --> 03:27:34,720
Speaker 11: we're at this point. So yeah, that's a very good takeaway.

4039
03:27:34,720 --> 03:27:37,600
Speaker 11: I appreciate that. Yeah, thank you so much, Naggar. This

4040
03:27:37,680 --> 03:27:38,920
Speaker 11: has been really enriching.

4041
03:27:39,200 --> 03:27:40,279
Speaker 19: Thank you so much, Danna.

4042
03:27:40,640 --> 03:27:42,760
Speaker 11: I will put all of the things we talked about

4043
03:27:42,760 --> 03:27:44,720
Speaker 11: in the show notes. Does your book have a publication

4044
03:27:44,800 --> 03:27:45,240
Speaker 11: date yet?

4045
03:27:45,480 --> 03:27:45,920
Speaker 2: Nobody?

4046
03:27:46,080 --> 03:27:49,520
Speaker 18: I signed the contract, so oka good good, So people

4047
03:27:49,560 --> 03:27:50,120
Speaker 18: be on the lookout.

4048
03:27:50,280 --> 03:27:52,640
Speaker 19: It will be with Stanford University Press, so.

4049
03:27:53,120 --> 03:27:56,800
Speaker 11: Yeah, excellent, excellent, So I will make sure to note

4050
03:27:56,800 --> 03:27:57,520
Speaker 11: that and flag that.

4051
03:27:57,760 --> 03:27:58,160
Speaker 8: Thank you.

4052
03:27:58,280 --> 03:28:00,120
Speaker 19: Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

4053
03:28:00,360 --> 03:28:00,840
Speaker 6: Of course.

4054
03:28:15,440 --> 03:28:19,960
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Executive dysfunction could happen here?

4055
03:28:20,320 --> 03:28:20,360
Speaker 9: No?

4056
03:28:21,040 --> 03:28:22,840
Speaker 2: Is that all right? Garrison? I thought we were. It

4057
03:28:23,000 --> 03:28:23,600
Speaker 2: was pretty close.

4058
03:28:23,760 --> 03:28:27,560
Speaker 6: There's another like show or column called Executive Dysfunction.

4059
03:28:27,800 --> 03:28:30,880
Speaker 2: Now, oh is there? Ye sons of bitches? They stole

4060
03:28:30,879 --> 03:28:31,400
Speaker 2: it from us.

4061
03:28:31,560 --> 03:28:34,359
Speaker 6: That covers like legal issues relating to the Trump administration.

4062
03:28:34,920 --> 03:28:38,520
Speaker 3: So okay, well that brings us neatly into a first store,

4063
03:28:38,600 --> 03:28:39,000
Speaker 3: or did it?

4064
03:28:39,200 --> 03:28:42,720
Speaker 6: This is defen here Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering

4065
03:28:42,760 --> 03:28:44,600
Speaker 6: what's happening the White House, the crumpling world, and what

4066
03:28:44,640 --> 03:28:47,160
Speaker 6: it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis today, joined by

4067
03:28:47,240 --> 03:28:51,039
Speaker 6: James Stout, Robert Evans, Mia Wong, and Sophie Licktterman. We're

4068
03:28:51,080 --> 03:28:53,800
Speaker 6: a covering the week of May twenty seventh to June third.

4069
03:28:54,480 --> 03:28:56,600
Speaker 2: Let's talk about intellectual property lawsuits.

4070
03:28:56,720 --> 03:29:01,120
Speaker 3: Let's right right off the bat. One who is in

4071
03:29:01,160 --> 03:29:04,680
Speaker 3: any capacity using ed or unnoticed It is going to

4072
03:29:04,720 --> 03:29:08,840
Speaker 3: be us against the Viagara people. I'm talking today about Patagonia,

4073
03:29:09,160 --> 03:29:13,680
Speaker 3: the brand suing Fatigonia, the drag queen.

4074
03:29:14,000 --> 03:29:15,600
Speaker 2: God damn, this is God.

4075
03:29:16,840 --> 03:29:20,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've successfully walked you into my little world. This

4076
03:29:20,400 --> 03:29:23,320
Speaker 3: is a situation very reminiscent of people. Remember the north

4077
03:29:23,360 --> 03:29:25,240
Speaker 3: Face's lawsuit against the South But.

4078
03:29:26,760 --> 03:29:29,240
Speaker 2: I would argue it's actually kind of different. But okay,

4079
03:29:29,280 --> 03:29:30,920
Speaker 2: I get what you're saying.

4080
03:29:30,760 --> 03:29:33,160
Speaker 3: The self but lawsuit was funny. If people an't familiar,

4081
03:29:33,280 --> 03:29:36,680
Speaker 3: it's really funny. They were bound to arbitration. They arbitrated

4082
03:29:36,680 --> 03:29:38,600
Speaker 3: the settle, and then the guy turned around and launched

4083
03:29:38,640 --> 03:29:42,280
Speaker 3: the butt face like a few weeks later and they

4084
03:29:42,320 --> 03:29:43,040
Speaker 3: sued him again.

4085
03:29:43,440 --> 03:29:46,320
Speaker 2: That was a beautiful case of somebody trying to troll

4086
03:29:46,360 --> 03:29:49,680
Speaker 2: a company and also like trolling the concept of like

4087
03:29:49,720 --> 03:29:52,880
Speaker 2: intellectual property laws in like a really creative way, which

4088
03:29:52,879 --> 03:29:54,520
Speaker 2: is which is different from what's happening.

4089
03:29:54,600 --> 03:29:58,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yes, what is happening here is that when Wiley,

4090
03:29:58,680 --> 03:30:02,879
Speaker 3: who dragged persona is Patagonia, right, does a lot of

4091
03:30:03,080 --> 03:30:07,160
Speaker 3: fundraising for outdoors causes, environmental causes, public lands, that kind

4092
03:30:07,200 --> 03:30:12,000
Speaker 3: of thing, has attempted to trademark their use of Patigonia

4093
03:30:12,120 --> 03:30:17,800
Speaker 3: for clothing. Patagonia is suing Wiley to protect its trademark

4094
03:30:17,840 --> 03:30:21,920
Speaker 3: on its logo because some of the logos that Patigonia

4095
03:30:21,959 --> 03:30:25,440
Speaker 3: has used are very obviously like the mirrored Patagonia logos.

4096
03:30:25,560 --> 03:30:29,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's trying to get a trademark for her Patagonia logo,

4097
03:30:29,680 --> 03:30:33,480
Speaker 2: which is just Patagonia instead of Patagonia in the company

4098
03:30:33,520 --> 03:30:34,679
Speaker 2: logo for Patagonia.

4099
03:30:35,120 --> 03:30:37,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not sure she tried to tried to trademark,

4100
03:30:37,240 --> 03:30:40,000
Speaker 3: like the it's a Sarah Fitzroy right, like it's about

4101
03:30:40,400 --> 03:30:43,520
Speaker 3: scape or she just tried to trademark Patigonia. It looked

4102
03:30:43,520 --> 03:30:43,720
Speaker 3: like it.

4103
03:30:43,760 --> 03:30:45,120
Speaker 2: Well I'll double check that right now.

4104
03:30:45,360 --> 03:30:47,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I think what she has offered as a

4105
03:30:47,120 --> 03:30:49,360
Speaker 3: settlement right now is to stop using the logo but

4106
03:30:49,480 --> 03:30:50,640
Speaker 3: continue using the name.

4107
03:30:50,720 --> 03:30:50,920
Speaker 10: Yeah.

4108
03:30:50,920 --> 03:30:53,880
Speaker 2: The second is whether Patagonia should be entitled a trademark

4109
03:30:54,000 --> 03:30:56,080
Speaker 2: registration and at least they have a picture in the

4110
03:30:56,120 --> 03:30:58,480
Speaker 2: trademark application of her Patagonia logo.

4111
03:30:58,680 --> 03:30:58,880
Speaker 12: Yeah.

4112
03:30:58,920 --> 03:31:00,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they've claimed it's usingly similar.

4113
03:31:00,959 --> 03:31:01,199
Speaker 10: Yeah.

4114
03:31:01,240 --> 03:31:03,040
Speaker 2: And you made you made a good point when we

4115
03:31:03,040 --> 03:31:05,280
Speaker 2: were talking about this earlier, James, that I hadn't thought of,

4116
03:31:05,440 --> 03:31:09,160
Speaker 2: because you are a better mind than I am in

4117
03:31:09,200 --> 03:31:11,480
Speaker 2: this way, which is that it is because my initial

4118
03:31:11,520 --> 03:31:12,760
Speaker 2: thinking on this was like when I saw that she

4119
03:31:12,800 --> 03:31:15,280
Speaker 2: was trying to trademark, just like her version of the

4120
03:31:15,280 --> 03:31:17,320
Speaker 2: Patagonia logo, was like, well, you just took their logo

4121
03:31:17,360 --> 03:31:19,160
Speaker 2: and put your name on, Like that is fucked up.

4122
03:31:19,480 --> 03:31:22,720
Speaker 2: But you pointed out well, Patagonia's logo includes this, like

4123
03:31:22,879 --> 03:31:26,240
Speaker 2: actual mountain range that she includes, and Patagonia doesn't really

4124
03:31:26,240 --> 03:31:29,280
Speaker 2: have the right to trademark that's sillowette of a mountain range.

4125
03:31:29,800 --> 03:31:31,880
Speaker 2: It is a little more nuanced than I thought initially.

4126
03:31:32,000 --> 03:31:33,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there are a couple of things of stake

4127
03:31:33,680 --> 03:31:36,200
Speaker 3: care that people prep ton't understand. One like, I'm in

4128
03:31:36,240 --> 03:31:39,280
Speaker 3: a moral level, not illegal one, folks, but yes, but yeah, morally,

4129
03:31:39,280 --> 03:31:41,360
Speaker 3: I think we should be asking the question is it

4130
03:31:41,440 --> 03:31:45,000
Speaker 3: okay for a company that grossest one point four billion

4131
03:31:45,040 --> 03:31:49,080
Speaker 3: a year to own the rights to a skyline? Like

4132
03:31:49,120 --> 03:31:50,800
Speaker 3: I think we should be asking that. I think alsotinly,

4133
03:31:51,440 --> 03:31:54,080
Speaker 3: people maybe should look a little bit deeper into I've

4134
03:31:54,120 --> 03:31:55,720
Speaker 3: written about this a bunch and a bunch of outlets,

4135
03:31:55,760 --> 03:31:58,720
Speaker 3: But Patagonia has millions daughters of military contracts that they

4136
03:31:58,760 --> 03:32:00,520
Speaker 3: don't like to talk about, and they did through a

4137
03:32:00,520 --> 03:32:03,760
Speaker 3: different company called Lost Arrow, And like the people just

4138
03:32:03,800 --> 03:32:06,000
Speaker 3: need to stop seeing a giant company like this is

4139
03:32:06,040 --> 03:32:08,879
Speaker 3: woke that like the companies ain't going to save us.

4140
03:32:08,920 --> 03:32:13,720
Speaker 3: The sustainable shorts aren't going to save us. Like buying

4141
03:32:13,720 --> 03:32:15,280
Speaker 3: a fancy fleece is not the way that you're going

4142
03:32:15,320 --> 03:32:16,600
Speaker 3: to make the better world that you want to live in.

4143
03:32:17,440 --> 03:32:18,119
Speaker 3: That's my take.

4144
03:32:18,640 --> 03:32:21,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like Patty was kind of poking the

4145
03:32:21,640 --> 03:32:24,120
Speaker 2: bear here. Yeah, one hundred percent, like in a massive way.

4146
03:32:24,200 --> 03:32:26,080
Speaker 2: Really yeah yeah yeah yeah.

4147
03:32:26,080 --> 03:32:28,640
Speaker 3: No, clearly she knew what she was going for here.

4148
03:32:28,800 --> 03:32:32,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Pagony clearly doesn't want to be fighting this lawsuit.

4149
03:32:32,920 --> 03:32:34,840
Speaker 6: Where are you seeing this stuff? Is this like a

4150
03:32:34,879 --> 03:32:36,959
Speaker 6: blue Skydews story? Where are you seeing this? No?

4151
03:32:37,160 --> 03:32:39,840
Speaker 2: This is like a big this is I came into it,

4152
03:32:39,879 --> 03:32:41,840
Speaker 2: like I saw it first on Reddit, but it's also

4153
03:32:41,920 --> 03:32:44,360
Speaker 2: just been pushed into my news feed like I've never

4154
03:32:44,400 --> 03:32:47,400
Speaker 2: heard a five different article. It's it's a big story

4155
03:32:47,480 --> 03:32:47,800
Speaker 2: right now.

4156
03:32:47,879 --> 03:32:51,720
Speaker 3: Unfortunately I followed her just like generally been aware of

4157
03:32:51,760 --> 03:32:54,000
Speaker 3: her for probably six or seven years, six seven.

4158
03:32:54,240 --> 03:32:57,039
Speaker 2: The New York Times has a feature that's just on

4159
03:32:57,080 --> 03:32:59,400
Speaker 2: this right now. It's a sizable tale.

4160
03:32:59,480 --> 03:33:00,000
Speaker 6: Interesting.

4161
03:33:01,000 --> 03:33:03,040
Speaker 3: I did note that most of her merch has sold out,

4162
03:33:03,080 --> 03:33:06,120
Speaker 3: so the striking effect it's in full force here.

4163
03:33:06,520 --> 03:33:06,760
Speaker 6: Yeah.

4164
03:33:07,000 --> 03:33:09,120
Speaker 3: Like, if you wanted to find a way to sell

4165
03:33:09,160 --> 03:33:12,840
Speaker 3: as many Patagonia stick as it look like the Patagonia

4166
03:33:12,879 --> 03:33:14,440
Speaker 3: logo as possible, you would sue her.

4167
03:33:14,560 --> 03:33:15,520
Speaker 2: This is the way to do it.

4168
03:33:15,879 --> 03:33:18,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're starting her for one dollar plus legal fees.

4169
03:33:18,560 --> 03:33:21,119
Speaker 3: People don't seem to have grasped. That doesn't mean that

4170
03:33:21,240 --> 03:33:23,480
Speaker 3: all that is at stake is a bug here. The

4171
03:33:23,560 --> 03:33:25,680
Speaker 3: fees will be very substantial.

4172
03:33:25,959 --> 03:33:28,880
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, although the fees will be substantial. That said,

4173
03:33:29,200 --> 03:33:32,800
Speaker 2: this is clearly a fight Patty wanted to have. Ye, So, like,

4174
03:33:32,879 --> 03:33:35,520
Speaker 2: I am not in a situation where, like I feel

4175
03:33:35,920 --> 03:33:40,039
Speaker 2: particularly angry or disturbed about this lawsuit, like this is

4176
03:33:40,360 --> 03:33:43,000
Speaker 2: something that any company would have done some version of

4177
03:33:43,040 --> 03:33:47,039
Speaker 2: this in response, it's not good that Pedagonia is doing this.

4178
03:33:47,200 --> 03:33:50,480
Speaker 2: It's just what any corporation would do that has a

4179
03:33:50,480 --> 03:33:55,440
Speaker 2: fiduciary duty to its shareholders. And that shouldn't change your

4180
03:33:55,480 --> 03:33:58,800
Speaker 2: opinion of Patagonia from what it was previously. But your

4181
03:33:58,840 --> 03:34:01,039
Speaker 2: opinion of Patagonia shouldnt ever have been that it's like

4182
03:34:01,120 --> 03:34:04,160
Speaker 2: an altruistic entity, right right, Yeah.

4183
03:34:04,240 --> 03:34:06,280
Speaker 3: Two percent of its shares are held by its Purpose Trust,

4184
03:34:06,280 --> 03:34:08,840
Speaker 3: which are all the voting shares, and ninety eight percent

4185
03:34:08,879 --> 03:34:10,879
Speaker 3: if it's shares are help by the hold Fast Collective,

4186
03:34:10,879 --> 03:34:13,680
Speaker 3: which is a five oh one C four. So like,

4187
03:34:13,800 --> 03:34:15,800
Speaker 3: I think people see that as like, you know, they'd

4188
03:34:15,840 --> 03:34:17,640
Speaker 3: like to say the Earth is our only shareholder, but

4189
03:34:17,720 --> 03:34:20,560
Speaker 3: like the purpose trust is, as you say, Robert, duty

4190
03:34:20,600 --> 03:34:22,760
Speaker 3: bound to make a profit to give to the C four.

4191
03:34:23,720 --> 03:34:28,080
Speaker 3: This is not the same thing as like activism. It's different.

4192
03:34:28,120 --> 03:34:30,080
Speaker 3: It's a company. It's a company that has to make profit,

4193
03:34:30,200 --> 03:34:31,800
Speaker 3: like you said, Robert, And I think people need to

4194
03:34:31,800 --> 03:34:32,240
Speaker 3: grasp that.

4195
03:34:32,560 --> 03:34:35,080
Speaker 2: Yes, and if they I mean literally, if they were not,

4196
03:34:35,200 --> 03:34:38,640
Speaker 2: if they were to not fight what she's doing here

4197
03:34:38,680 --> 03:34:41,200
Speaker 2: like this could cause serious issues for Yeah.

4198
03:34:41,360 --> 03:34:43,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think someone tried to put their logo on

4199
03:34:43,040 --> 03:34:46,000
Speaker 3: a gun or I've heard. I couldn't find reporting on this,

4200
03:34:46,080 --> 03:34:47,600
Speaker 3: but a couple of people have mentioned it to me

4201
03:34:47,879 --> 03:34:50,280
Speaker 3: and obviously they'd suit about that and they got you know,

4202
03:34:50,320 --> 03:34:51,840
Speaker 3: so if they didn't, if they hadn't done this one,

4203
03:34:51,840 --> 03:34:52,599
Speaker 3: they couldn't.

4204
03:34:52,320 --> 03:34:52,840
Speaker 6: Do that right.

4205
03:34:53,000 --> 03:34:55,240
Speaker 2: And it's again, this should not I'm not you shouldn't

4206
03:34:55,240 --> 03:34:58,160
Speaker 2: be like, well, patagone isn't the right And but also

4207
03:34:58,200 --> 03:35:01,000
Speaker 2: you shouldn't be like, wow, I completely changed my opinion

4208
03:35:01,080 --> 03:35:02,439
Speaker 2: about this company.

4209
03:35:02,360 --> 03:35:02,560
Speaker 10: You know.

4210
03:35:02,800 --> 03:35:05,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's just that they're doing what they do.

4211
03:35:05,440 --> 03:35:05,920
Speaker 10: Yeah.

4212
03:35:06,040 --> 03:35:08,680
Speaker 12: I think the underlying structural thing here is something we've

4213
03:35:08,680 --> 03:35:11,720
Speaker 12: talked about on this show at some length, is just

4214
03:35:11,959 --> 03:35:16,279
Speaker 12: the underlying violence of the intellectual property system, like irrespective

4215
03:35:16,320 --> 03:35:19,720
Speaker 12: of this case. This is a kind of silly case

4216
03:35:19,720 --> 03:35:21,640
Speaker 12: of it. But you know, like there are a lot

4217
03:35:21,640 --> 03:35:23,440
Speaker 12: of people in the world who are dead right now

4218
03:35:23,480 --> 03:35:25,800
Speaker 12: because a bunch of a bunch of corporations get to

4219
03:35:25,840 --> 03:35:29,960
Speaker 12: hold like patents on vaccines, for example, Yeah, or insulin.

4220
03:35:30,360 --> 03:35:34,480
Speaker 12: This has always been an extremely violent regime that is

4221
03:35:34,600 --> 03:35:38,600
Speaker 12: enforced by quite like one of the most powerful international

4222
03:35:38,600 --> 03:35:42,360
Speaker 12: bodies that has ever existed. And yeah, if you want

4223
03:35:42,400 --> 03:35:45,440
Speaker 12: to hear more about this, friend of the show, Vicky

4224
03:35:45,480 --> 03:35:48,160
Speaker 12: Ostrowhil released a book called The Extended Universe about how

4225
03:35:48,160 --> 03:35:51,840
Speaker 12: Disney pioneered a whole bunch of this that, yeah, you

4226
03:35:51,840 --> 03:35:56,080
Speaker 12: should read about because the entire system is just pure

4227
03:35:56,160 --> 03:35:57,680
Speaker 12: violence and always has been.

4228
03:35:58,400 --> 03:36:00,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, we have some episodes from you. It is good

4229
03:36:00,400 --> 03:36:02,640
Speaker 3: that I made about drug ip and a a greening

4230
03:36:02,680 --> 03:36:05,920
Speaker 3: as well. Yeah, that's a very good point. Mare moving on,

4231
03:36:06,600 --> 03:36:09,199
Speaker 3: we learned this week that the F fifteen E pilot

4232
03:36:09,240 --> 03:36:11,840
Speaker 3: who was shut down over Iran in April had been

4233
03:36:11,879 --> 03:36:14,480
Speaker 3: shot down the week before over Q eight.

4234
03:36:14,600 --> 03:36:23,160
Speaker 2: What horrible, horrible week. Think you've had a bad week

4235
03:36:23,200 --> 03:36:23,959
Speaker 2: at work.

4236
03:36:25,320 --> 03:36:28,039
Speaker 12: Versus joining just the list of all timers, like that

4237
03:36:28,080 --> 03:36:30,560
Speaker 12: guy who got nuked at both Roschaman and Nagasaki. There's

4238
03:36:30,560 --> 03:36:32,640
Speaker 12: that guy who had sunk on four consecutive ships.

4239
03:36:32,920 --> 03:36:35,200
Speaker 2: Is there such thing as a reverse ace? Like if

4240
03:36:35,200 --> 03:36:37,880
Speaker 2: this guy gets shot down three more times like an

4241
03:36:37,920 --> 03:36:38,640
Speaker 2: anti as.

4242
03:36:39,280 --> 03:36:40,959
Speaker 3: If he gets shut down three more times, he ain't

4243
03:36:40,959 --> 03:36:42,959
Speaker 3: gonna be able to reach the controls of the plane,

4244
03:36:43,000 --> 03:36:45,560
Speaker 3: Like he's already compressed his spine show much.

4245
03:36:46,920 --> 03:36:48,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm surprised. I didn't think they would let them.

4246
03:36:48,959 --> 03:36:51,879
Speaker 2: I didn't think period after getting shot down and ejecting,

4247
03:36:52,320 --> 03:36:55,000
Speaker 2: you would be allowed to fly a plane at all,

4248
03:36:55,560 --> 03:36:57,680
Speaker 2: Like yeah, quickly, I know.

4249
03:36:58,080 --> 03:36:59,440
Speaker 6: I was not a lad.

4250
03:36:59,640 --> 03:37:03,480
Speaker 2: That was my understanding is you're not normally supposed to Like,

4251
03:37:03,520 --> 03:37:05,879
Speaker 2: I don't think this is how normally things would be done,

4252
03:37:05,879 --> 03:37:08,120
Speaker 2: which kind of suggests that there was like they didn't

4253
03:37:08,160 --> 03:37:09,119
Speaker 2: have enough pilots.

4254
03:37:09,400 --> 03:37:11,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, it's kind of remarkable that they were able

4255
03:37:11,240 --> 03:37:14,360
Speaker 3: to get him another at fifteen quickly, I guess. But yeah, yeah,

4256
03:37:14,400 --> 03:37:16,800
Speaker 3: he probably not flying any more planes for a while,

4257
03:37:17,080 --> 03:37:20,040
Speaker 3: I would imagine not Yeah, I mean, who knows, maybe

4258
03:37:20,160 --> 03:37:22,440
Speaker 3: maybe the F fifteen to free I found.

4259
03:37:23,720 --> 03:37:25,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like it's just feeding F fifteen.

4260
03:37:29,280 --> 03:37:32,480
Speaker 3: He must Yeah, the desert God's demand an F fifteen

4261
03:37:32,520 --> 03:37:36,480
Speaker 3: sacrifice every six days. Marco Rubio in the House has

4262
03:37:36,520 --> 03:37:39,520
Speaker 3: claimed that Afrikaners, we spoke quite this first week right,

4263
03:37:39,520 --> 03:37:44,519
Speaker 3: they're raising the cap to admit Africanas as refugees. Africantisu

4264
03:37:44,600 --> 03:37:47,360
Speaker 3: may admitted and others not because they quote have a

4265
03:37:47,440 --> 03:37:49,320
Speaker 3: high likelihood of assimilation.

4266
03:37:50,040 --> 03:37:52,360
Speaker 20: We have gauged that there is real interest from a

4267
03:37:52,440 --> 03:37:54,880
Speaker 20: unique subset who would be interested to coming in the

4268
03:37:54,959 --> 03:37:57,760
Speaker 20: United States and who we assess have a high likelihood

4269
03:37:57,920 --> 03:38:01,040
Speaker 20: of rapid assimilation and success in our society, and hence

4270
03:38:01,040 --> 03:38:04,320
Speaker 20: this program was created. Now, that's not a program that's

4271
03:38:04,360 --> 03:38:06,960
Speaker 20: going to exist in perpetuity. It's a program that's designed

4272
03:38:06,959 --> 03:38:09,320
Speaker 20: to the fact that we are seeing the demand. We

4273
03:38:09,360 --> 03:38:12,360
Speaker 20: are seeing applications from South Africa. People will enter the

4274
03:38:12,480 --> 03:38:14,640
Speaker 20: United States, and we think this is a group of

4275
03:38:14,680 --> 03:38:15,640
Speaker 20: potential refugees.

4276
03:38:15,920 --> 03:38:22,080
Speaker 21: Our Afghan allies are refugees. They have been vetted eleven

4277
03:38:22,200 --> 03:38:25,320
Speaker 21: hundred versus this new seventeen thousand.

4278
03:38:25,440 --> 03:38:27,520
Speaker 20: But it's more than just vetting. We're also trying to

4279
03:38:27,520 --> 03:38:30,680
Speaker 20: determine against the immigration policy the United States. Like everything

4280
03:38:30,680 --> 03:38:32,560
Speaker 20: we do, has to be geared by the national interest,

4281
03:38:32,879 --> 03:38:34,760
Speaker 20: and it is in our national interest if we are

4282
03:38:34,800 --> 03:38:37,959
Speaker 20: allowing people in our country be people that can quickly

4283
03:38:37,959 --> 03:38:40,080
Speaker 20: assimilate into society and be successful.

4284
03:38:40,280 --> 03:38:43,920
Speaker 21: I can't they assimilate into society. A background been to

4285
03:38:44,040 --> 03:38:48,039
Speaker 21: their centers in my district in Queens they have assimilated

4286
03:38:48,440 --> 03:38:50,680
Speaker 21: and contribute and pay taxes.

4287
03:38:51,160 --> 03:38:53,640
Speaker 20: Yeah, but we've already assumed a lot of Afghan refugees,

4288
03:38:53,680 --> 03:38:55,480
Speaker 20: as you said, you have them in your district. We've

4289
03:38:55,520 --> 03:38:58,200
Speaker 20: already assumed the large number in the past. The point

4290
03:38:58,280 --> 03:39:00,760
Speaker 20: is that the general policy has been to limit the

4291
03:39:00,760 --> 03:39:03,280
Speaker 20: injury of refugees from all over the world and then

4292
03:39:03,280 --> 03:39:06,600
Speaker 20: to create the special track because of a unique circumstance

4293
03:39:06,640 --> 03:39:08,640
Speaker 20: and the short term of a high demand from a

4294
03:39:08,720 --> 03:39:10,879
Speaker 20: number of immigrants that we have determined if they passed

4295
03:39:10,879 --> 03:39:13,640
Speaker 20: the vetting and the checking, we very quickly assimilate and

4296
03:39:13,680 --> 03:39:14,840
Speaker 20: contribute to our society.

4297
03:39:15,280 --> 03:39:17,280
Speaker 3: I think it's really interesting. It's one of the more

4298
03:39:17,640 --> 03:39:23,520
Speaker 3: clear elucidations is the way they see immigration that we've had. Yeah,

4299
03:39:23,680 --> 03:39:26,280
Speaker 3: like you said, it's not about vetting, it's not about

4300
03:39:26,280 --> 03:39:30,240
Speaker 3: background checks. It's specifically about people who can quote unquote assimilate.

4301
03:39:30,520 --> 03:39:33,520
Speaker 6: I wonder what the economic strata of the Africander is

4302
03:39:33,560 --> 03:39:35,640
Speaker 6: getting getting refugee status are.

4303
03:39:36,320 --> 03:39:39,199
Speaker 12: I mean it's in terms of the way that Rubio

4304
03:39:39,280 --> 03:39:42,400
Speaker 12: is looking at it. Their economic strata is white, which yeah,

4305
03:39:42,480 --> 03:39:44,440
Speaker 12: well I wonder what I wonder what their actual economic

4306
03:39:44,520 --> 03:39:47,400
Speaker 12: strata is. That is an interesting aspect, Like South Africa

4307
03:39:47,480 --> 03:39:49,960
Speaker 12: is a place where that maps on very very cleanly.

4308
03:39:50,200 --> 03:39:50,400
Speaker 6: Yeah.

4309
03:39:50,760 --> 03:39:55,480
Speaker 12: Ways, right, it's That's what I'm saying, like, definitely a lot.

4310
03:39:56,640 --> 03:39:58,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think just having the means to apply

4311
03:39:58,959 --> 03:39:59,200
Speaker 3: for this.

4312
03:39:59,640 --> 03:39:59,879
Speaker 11: Yeah.

4313
03:40:00,000 --> 03:40:02,640
Speaker 3: And that's clearly like Rubio saying, like he's doing this

4314
03:40:02,640 --> 03:40:04,360
Speaker 3: because there is a demand. Let me tell you, there

4315
03:40:04,400 --> 03:40:06,440
Speaker 3: is a demand all over the world, Like I have

4316
03:40:06,800 --> 03:40:09,879
Speaker 3: seen demand to live in the United States in every

4317
03:40:09,959 --> 03:40:12,560
Speaker 3: continent on the planet apart from the ones that are

4318
03:40:12,600 --> 03:40:15,360
Speaker 3: covered in ice. This is as clear as you're going

4319
03:40:15,400 --> 03:40:18,200
Speaker 3: to get to them saying these folks are white, They're

4320
03:40:18,200 --> 03:40:20,560
Speaker 3: coming to America and we're going to lock out the

4321
03:40:20,600 --> 03:40:22,560
Speaker 3: folks who are not. Like I thought, it was very

4322
03:40:22,600 --> 03:40:26,440
Speaker 3: interesting to see him go right up to that line. Next,

4323
03:40:26,560 --> 03:40:31,640
Speaker 3: I have Medicaid work requirements. Work study of volunteering requirements

4324
03:40:31,640 --> 03:40:34,080
Speaker 3: of eighty hours a month will be imposed by the

4325
03:40:34,120 --> 03:40:37,480
Speaker 3: first of January for the forty States to expanded the

4326
03:40:37,520 --> 03:40:41,039
Speaker 3: program under the Affordable Care Act. This is according to

4327
03:40:41,040 --> 03:40:44,920
Speaker 3: a notice published today in the Federal Register today being Wednesday,

4328
03:40:45,320 --> 03:40:50,240
Speaker 3: this will impact millions of Americans, and the speed at

4329
03:40:50,240 --> 03:40:53,960
Speaker 3: which this is being done will also be very hard

4330
03:40:54,040 --> 03:40:57,400
Speaker 3: for state bureaucracies to keep up with. Right, we have

4331
03:40:58,080 --> 03:41:02,160
Speaker 3: less than six months for massive change, and like the

4332
03:41:02,320 --> 03:41:06,040
Speaker 3: requirement for states to monitor this, it's going to be

4333
03:41:06,120 --> 03:41:10,000
Speaker 3: very difficult for them to retain the stability and pivot

4334
03:41:10,040 --> 03:41:13,400
Speaker 3: to this and that's going to impact people, whether or

4335
03:41:13,400 --> 03:41:16,240
Speaker 3: not they are working. Yeah, which sucks.

4336
03:41:16,640 --> 03:41:20,000
Speaker 12: This is something that like particularly impacts trans people because

4337
03:41:20,000 --> 03:41:23,520
Speaker 12: they're a very shit tone of trans people on Medicaide

4338
03:41:23,760 --> 03:41:27,040
Speaker 12: and a lot of those people are also disabled and

4339
03:41:27,080 --> 03:41:30,879
Speaker 12: that's just been an absolute nightmare for them. If you

4340
03:41:30,920 --> 03:41:35,640
Speaker 12: are in a position where you can hire someone for

4341
03:41:36,240 --> 03:41:38,040
Speaker 12: I think the work, what's the word is like thirty

4342
03:41:38,080 --> 03:41:39,640
Speaker 12: hours a week? I think is the requirement?

4343
03:41:39,680 --> 03:41:43,039
Speaker 3: Eighty hours a month? Is eight hours twenty ish a week.

4344
03:41:43,879 --> 03:41:45,880
Speaker 12: Yeah, Like, if you're in a position to just hire

4345
03:41:45,920 --> 03:41:49,280
Speaker 12: someone for that, you should do it because that's the

4346
03:41:49,280 --> 03:41:53,959
Speaker 12: difference between these people like having food and not having food.

4347
03:41:54,560 --> 03:41:57,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a potential and this will kill people. Yeah,

4348
03:41:57,240 --> 03:41:59,959
Speaker 3: like just just the fuck ups in the bureaucracy. Even

4349
03:42:00,080 --> 03:42:02,160
Speaker 3: if people are able to find the work of volunteer

4350
03:42:02,200 --> 03:42:04,560
Speaker 3: or study or whatever. Yeah, but the delay so that

4351
03:42:04,600 --> 03:42:05,880
Speaker 3: will cause will kill people.

4352
03:42:06,680 --> 03:42:08,320
Speaker 12: This is also a thing, by the way, that some

4353
03:42:08,440 --> 03:42:11,160
Speaker 12: unions have historically done with WW has done this, which

4354
03:42:11,200 --> 03:42:15,320
Speaker 12: is like getting people positions to be able to do volunteering.

4355
03:42:15,920 --> 03:42:17,400
Speaker 12: And if that's the thing you can do, you should

4356
03:42:17,440 --> 03:42:23,520
Speaker 12: do this because this is a unfathomable humanitarian crisis for

4357
03:42:23,600 --> 03:42:25,520
Speaker 12: a bunch of the most vulnerable people in the US.

4358
03:42:26,240 --> 03:42:30,080
Speaker 12: And yeah, it's real bad.

4359
03:42:30,600 --> 03:42:32,160
Speaker 3: Yeah it's not good to all. I think that is

4360
03:42:32,200 --> 03:42:33,560
Speaker 3: a good point mere that, Like, if you're in a

4361
03:42:33,560 --> 03:42:36,840
Speaker 3: place to help people coordinate their volunteering and document that, like,

4362
03:42:37,480 --> 03:42:40,720
Speaker 3: that's a good thing to start thinking about. Garrison, you

4363
03:42:40,720 --> 03:42:41,560
Speaker 3: got any small things?

4364
03:42:42,200 --> 03:42:45,600
Speaker 6: A few more small things. Trump signed an executive order

4365
03:42:45,720 --> 03:42:51,400
Speaker 6: to expand AI cybersecurity capabilities and protections, and last Friday,

4366
03:42:51,920 --> 03:42:56,200
Speaker 6: Chelsey Gabbard resigned as Director of National Intelligence citing her

4367
03:42:56,400 --> 03:43:00,840
Speaker 6: husband's recent cancer diagnosis. Trump has elect and Bill Poulti,

4368
03:43:01,240 --> 03:43:04,160
Speaker 6: head of the Federal Housing Finance Agency, to serve as

4369
03:43:04,200 --> 03:43:07,160
Speaker 6: acting Director of National Intelligence. Pulte is a Trump loyalist

4370
03:43:07,240 --> 03:43:11,520
Speaker 6: with no intelligence background, and even Republican senators don't seem

4371
03:43:11,560 --> 03:43:15,279
Speaker 6: too keen on this choice. Senate Majority leader John Thune

4372
03:43:15,280 --> 03:43:19,720
Speaker 6: told reporters, quote, well, we don't need a weaponized DNI,

4373
03:43:20,120 --> 03:43:23,360
Speaker 6: we need professionals there. If he's somebody they wanted that

4374
03:43:23,400 --> 03:43:27,480
Speaker 6: position permanently, he's got, as you know, a lengthy road

4375
03:43:27,600 --> 03:43:28,760
Speaker 6: ahead of him.

4376
03:43:29,080 --> 03:43:33,280
Speaker 3: Let's catch up with the war in Iran. It ran

4377
03:43:33,760 --> 03:43:36,200
Speaker 3: this week hit a commercial vessel with an anti ship

4378
03:43:36,240 --> 03:43:39,279
Speaker 3: cruise missile in the Persian Gulf, as well as firing

4379
03:43:39,480 --> 03:43:42,920
Speaker 3: at US facilities and hitting the international airport in Qit.

4380
03:43:43,000 --> 03:43:46,800
Speaker 3: But they've killed at least one person there. This comes

4381
03:43:46,840 --> 03:43:49,720
Speaker 3: as talks are continuing to fail to reach a resolution,

4382
03:43:49,959 --> 03:43:53,000
Speaker 3: at least in part because Israel refuses to stop attacking

4383
03:43:53,040 --> 03:43:57,280
Speaker 3: Lebanon and committing war crimes. Axios is reporting that Trump said,

4384
03:43:57,320 --> 03:44:01,240
Speaker 3: in a call to Nettinyahuo, quote your fucking crazy. You'd

4385
03:44:01,240 --> 03:44:03,640
Speaker 3: be in prison if it weren't for me. I'm saving

4386
03:44:03,680 --> 03:44:07,800
Speaker 3: your ass. Everybody hates you now, everybody hates Israel because

4387
03:44:07,840 --> 03:44:12,279
Speaker 3: of this. Sure In recent days, the IDF has explicitly

4388
03:44:12,280 --> 03:44:16,920
Speaker 3: threatened bit route and further expanded its ground campaign again

4389
03:44:17,000 --> 03:44:20,280
Speaker 3: right like, this war is now becoming very much a

4390
03:44:20,320 --> 03:44:22,640
Speaker 3: regional thing. Has been a regional thing since it started,

4391
03:44:22,680 --> 03:44:25,039
Speaker 3: but like the peace deal, is also a regional thing,

4392
03:44:25,080 --> 03:44:30,080
Speaker 3: and the fact that Israel refuses to do anything other

4393
03:44:30,120 --> 03:44:33,800
Speaker 3: than exactly what it wants, which seems to be killing

4394
03:44:33,800 --> 03:44:36,280
Speaker 3: more and more people in its neighboring countries, means that

4395
03:44:36,360 --> 03:44:38,320
Speaker 3: it's going to be very hard for this water come

4396
03:44:38,360 --> 03:44:40,280
Speaker 3: to an end, which is going to have long term

4397
03:44:40,320 --> 03:44:44,800
Speaker 3: economic consequences for the whole world. NBC has also reported,

4398
03:44:44,840 --> 03:44:47,560
Speaker 3: talking of the whole world, that it was a Chinese

4399
03:44:47,680 --> 03:44:51,160
Speaker 3: man pads shot down the fifteen E. That's for the

4400
03:44:51,200 --> 03:44:55,080
Speaker 3: second time in April that such equipment, along with long

4401
03:44:55,160 --> 03:44:58,360
Speaker 3: range radar was possibly supplied to Iran in the early

4402
03:44:58,480 --> 03:45:02,640
Speaker 3: days of the conflict by China. Obviously, this makes any

4403
03:45:02,720 --> 03:45:06,519
Speaker 3: kind of tent with the US and China more difficult,

4404
03:45:06,600 --> 03:45:13,000
Speaker 3: right and it's not clear if the particular actual manpad's

4405
03:45:13,040 --> 03:45:15,720
Speaker 3: man portable air defense system people aren't familiar if the

4406
03:45:15,879 --> 03:45:19,200
Speaker 3: particular serbs to MSR used had arrived recently or have

4407
03:45:19,280 --> 03:45:22,120
Speaker 3: been into doock pals for some time, But it appears

4408
03:45:22,160 --> 03:45:25,600
Speaker 3: that China, at least right before or early on in

4409
03:45:25,600 --> 03:45:29,880
Speaker 3: the conflict, was perhaps supplying some air defenses to it Ran.

4410
03:45:30,440 --> 03:45:32,480
Speaker 3: Maybe this can explain just a little bit about how

4411
03:45:33,280 --> 03:45:37,640
Speaker 3: the bombing campaign has been relatively unsuccessful in its objectives

4412
03:45:37,680 --> 03:45:38,280
Speaker 3: in many ways.

4413
03:45:38,720 --> 03:45:40,039
Speaker 6: Let's go on a break and then we can talk

4414
03:45:40,040 --> 03:45:59,240
Speaker 6: about the California elections and the Supreme Court. Okay, elections

4415
03:45:59,320 --> 03:46:03,119
Speaker 6: in California. Why is California like that? What is going

4416
03:46:03,160 --> 03:46:03,959
Speaker 6: on over there?

4417
03:46:04,120 --> 03:46:06,000
Speaker 1: It's because I left. It's my fault.

4418
03:46:06,240 --> 03:46:08,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, grieving Sophie.

4419
03:46:09,200 --> 03:46:11,400
Speaker 2: That was the last thing holding it together there.

4420
03:46:11,520 --> 03:46:13,640
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

4421
03:46:14,120 --> 03:46:17,360
Speaker 6: Let's start with the La mayoral race.

4422
03:46:18,000 --> 03:46:20,760
Speaker 10: I want to talk about it. It's my duty to

4423
03:46:20,840 --> 03:46:23,480
Speaker 10: talk about this. I would like to talk a bit

4424
03:46:23,520 --> 03:46:25,679
Speaker 10: about Spencer Pratt.

4425
03:46:25,600 --> 03:46:28,080
Speaker 6: Who may may be advancing, who.

4426
03:46:27,959 --> 03:46:29,240
Speaker 1: May be advancing, That's what I'm saying.

4427
03:46:29,560 --> 03:46:31,959
Speaker 10: At time of recording, which is Wednesday, June third, at

4428
03:46:32,000 --> 03:46:35,320
Speaker 10: around three thirty pm Pacific time, Pratt is currently in

4429
03:46:35,400 --> 03:46:38,240
Speaker 10: second place with thirty percent of the votes. Bass is

4430
03:46:38,240 --> 03:46:41,080
Speaker 10: at thirty five percent and has already been guaranteed to

4431
03:46:41,120 --> 03:46:43,200
Speaker 10: move forward, and I THEE Raman is in third with

4432
03:46:43,240 --> 03:46:45,600
Speaker 10: twenty two percent. And like I said, there's sixty percent

4433
03:46:45,640 --> 03:46:49,680
Speaker 10: of the votes counted. So why the fuck is Spencer

4434
03:46:49,760 --> 03:46:54,440
Speaker 10: Pratt a former reality TV cast member. I'm not even

4435
03:46:54,480 --> 03:46:58,879
Speaker 10: gonna give him star running for mayor. Pratt grew up

4436
03:46:59,000 --> 03:47:03,040
Speaker 10: in the Pacific Halisad's neighborhood and live there until the

4437
03:47:03,040 --> 03:47:07,040
Speaker 10: fires happened and he and his parents' houses were unfortunately

4438
03:47:07,080 --> 03:47:11,520
Speaker 10: burned down, and he started making videos on TikTok, was

4439
03:47:11,520 --> 03:47:14,840
Speaker 10: getting a lot of attention for it, and decided that

4440
03:47:15,000 --> 03:47:17,760
Speaker 10: it was his destiny to it was his According to

4441
03:47:17,800 --> 03:47:21,480
Speaker 10: his website, his mission to run for mayor her his

4442
03:47:21,760 --> 03:47:27,840
Speaker 10: own campaign website. Pratt is a media entrepreneur, questionable, outspoken

4443
03:47:27,879 --> 03:47:31,039
Speaker 10: advocate depends on who you're talking about, and an emerging

4444
03:47:31,080 --> 03:47:34,959
Speaker 10: political leader. He does have a political science degree from

4445
03:47:35,360 --> 03:47:38,600
Speaker 10: USC I will say that, but he does claim to

4446
03:47:38,640 --> 03:47:41,720
Speaker 10: be Karen Bass's worst nightmare. Now, if you're not a

4447
03:47:41,800 --> 03:47:44,520
Speaker 10: millennial who had television in the late two thousands, you're

4448
03:47:44,560 --> 03:47:47,840
Speaker 10: probably unaware of how unhinged Spencer Pratt is.

4449
03:47:48,200 --> 03:47:50,480
Speaker 1: Here are some highlights listeners.

4450
03:47:50,520 --> 03:47:53,400
Speaker 2: We apologize for what Sophie's about to make you experience.

4451
03:47:53,480 --> 03:47:56,840
Speaker 6: This is a lot of audio, Sophie, we need all

4452
03:47:56,840 --> 03:47:57,039
Speaker 6: of it.

4453
03:47:58,320 --> 03:48:02,400
Speaker 2: Oh god, it Garrison, just copyright.

4454
03:48:03,120 --> 03:48:03,800
Speaker 1: We'll just do it.

4455
03:48:03,879 --> 03:48:06,400
Speaker 6: Just do it for me. That was the best.

4456
03:48:06,440 --> 03:48:08,520
Speaker 13: Like, I was proud of myself for not doing what

4457
03:48:08,560 --> 03:48:10,640
Speaker 13: I wanted to do to you, because what I wanted

4458
03:48:10,680 --> 03:48:15,200
Speaker 13: to do and say to you, dear, I didn't because

4459
03:48:15,240 --> 03:48:18,120
Speaker 13: I was praying, praying like I do every day, to

4460
03:48:18,160 --> 03:48:20,360
Speaker 13: not say the things that I want to say to you,

4461
03:48:20,520 --> 03:48:23,000
Speaker 13: to your mom. I know I'm not. Do you see

4462
03:48:23,000 --> 03:48:25,680
Speaker 13: how I'm not saying them? Yeah, I'm very proud of myself.

4463
03:48:26,320 --> 03:48:27,720
Speaker 19: Take your heads about to explode.

4464
03:48:27,879 --> 03:48:30,200
Speaker 13: So I am sorry if I disrespected you. But I'm

4465
03:48:30,320 --> 03:48:34,800
Speaker 13: very emotional these days, very very so I say things

4466
03:48:35,320 --> 03:48:36,000
Speaker 13: that I feel.

4467
03:48:36,400 --> 03:48:38,360
Speaker 11: I was the one that wanted to kill anybody that

4468
03:48:38,360 --> 03:48:39,959
Speaker 11: would ever talk like that about.

4469
03:48:39,720 --> 03:48:41,000
Speaker 19: My sister, and I still would.

4470
03:48:41,400 --> 03:48:43,800
Speaker 16: But that goes through my mom too, and as a family,

4471
03:48:44,040 --> 03:48:45,160
Speaker 16: that's how we all should be.

4472
03:48:45,280 --> 03:48:47,240
Speaker 13: Well, I didn't say anything negative aout your mom. Your

4473
03:48:47,240 --> 03:48:49,840
Speaker 13: mom is just the vagina that made Heidi come on

4474
03:48:49,840 --> 03:48:53,120
Speaker 13: to earth. Your mom is not Jesus or God or

4475
03:48:53,160 --> 03:48:55,440
Speaker 13: the Creator. So why can't I say that?

4476
03:48:55,640 --> 03:48:56,720
Speaker 6: So why can't I say that?

4477
03:48:56,959 --> 03:48:57,760
Speaker 2: Why can't I say that?

4478
03:48:58,520 --> 03:49:04,840
Speaker 9: No, it's not it's my opinion, preacher, preacher, this isn't

4479
03:49:04,840 --> 03:49:08,920
Speaker 9: Bible study, this is no one's preaching, No one's preaching,

4480
03:49:09,360 --> 03:49:14,320
Speaker 9: No one is preaching here. You're not her sister.

4481
03:49:14,400 --> 03:49:17,160
Speaker 6: You're not her friend. Liar, walk away from.

4482
03:49:16,960 --> 03:49:19,120
Speaker 13: These lives because she's gonna sit here and keep eying you.

4483
03:49:19,320 --> 03:49:21,920
Speaker 13: You're the biggest poser in this town. You know what

4484
03:49:21,960 --> 03:49:23,800
Speaker 13: you're going to burn.

4485
03:49:24,440 --> 03:49:29,200
Speaker 2: I go back to the real estate job.

4486
03:49:29,760 --> 03:49:30,040
Speaker 19: Liar.

4487
03:49:32,440 --> 03:49:35,520
Speaker 10: Yeah, that was Spencer talking to his sister in law

4488
03:49:35,520 --> 03:49:36,640
Speaker 10: about his mother in law.

4489
03:49:37,160 --> 03:49:39,360
Speaker 6: All this is fake, this is all acting like this,

4490
03:49:39,480 --> 03:49:41,600
Speaker 6: this is I don't know this. This doesn't move me

4491
03:49:41,680 --> 03:49:41,960
Speaker 6: at all.

4492
03:49:42,560 --> 03:49:44,960
Speaker 1: Half of this is acting. Half of this is not acting.

4493
03:49:45,360 --> 03:49:48,640
Speaker 10: Yeah, yes, that is he here, he is talking to

4494
03:49:48,680 --> 03:49:49,360
Speaker 10: his own sister.

4495
03:49:50,800 --> 03:49:55,120
Speaker 3: Godkay, no, we've already cathlog this ship.

4496
03:49:55,600 --> 03:49:56,360
Speaker 10: I'm gonna leave.

4497
03:49:56,440 --> 03:49:59,160
Speaker 8: But I didn't get to say, Hi, are you guys good?

4498
03:49:59,360 --> 03:49:59,840
Speaker 8: How are you.

4499
03:50:02,280 --> 03:50:02,800
Speaker 11: Excellent?

4500
03:50:02,920 --> 03:50:03,440
Speaker 6: How are you.

4501
03:50:05,600 --> 03:50:05,880
Speaker 13: When?

4502
03:50:06,080 --> 03:50:06,360
Speaker 1: When?

4503
03:50:06,600 --> 03:50:07,360
Speaker 13: When?

4504
03:50:07,560 --> 03:50:08,400
Speaker 3: What are you crying about?

4505
03:50:08,400 --> 03:50:11,960
Speaker 13: Seventy? Are you crying about that? That's why you're not

4506
03:50:12,000 --> 03:50:14,200
Speaker 13: in my life, you crazy bitch, because you come to

4507
03:50:14,320 --> 03:50:17,240
Speaker 13: barbecues and just start crying. I was just enjoying myself

4508
03:50:17,280 --> 03:50:19,480
Speaker 13: and my wife, and I get crying sisters in front

4509
03:50:19,480 --> 03:50:19,720
Speaker 13: of me.

4510
03:50:20,360 --> 03:50:23,400
Speaker 9: She just wanted to say, but that gets a crying away.

4511
03:50:23,640 --> 03:50:28,000
Speaker 6: What the do I need to do to you? Drama?

4512
03:50:28,760 --> 03:50:36,200
Speaker 3: He didn't just ignoring me at the party. Mar What

4513
03:50:36,400 --> 03:50:36,920
Speaker 3: just happened?

4514
03:50:37,080 --> 03:50:39,200
Speaker 20: We were having a little conversation and then all of

4515
03:50:39,200 --> 03:50:41,120
Speaker 20: a sudden, I got people storming out of here.

4516
03:50:41,680 --> 03:50:44,960
Speaker 8: I'm talking now. You know it's your brother, but she's

4517
03:50:45,000 --> 03:50:45,720
Speaker 8: off his rocker.

4518
03:50:45,840 --> 03:50:46,760
Speaker 12: I don't know what's talking with her.

4519
03:50:47,360 --> 03:50:50,840
Speaker 9: You know what, I'm talking about, my little sister who's

4520
03:50:50,880 --> 03:50:53,120
Speaker 9: not relevant to my life.

4521
03:50:53,600 --> 03:50:54,160
Speaker 6: Oh god?

4522
03:50:54,360 --> 03:50:55,720
Speaker 12: Oh you know? Okay?

4523
03:50:57,240 --> 03:51:00,960
Speaker 10: Oh, and just to say, just to say, she has

4524
03:51:01,040 --> 03:51:04,280
Speaker 10: told people not to vote for her brother in modern times.

4525
03:51:04,440 --> 03:51:06,680
Speaker 2: Just a shacking, shocking stuff.

4526
03:51:06,880 --> 03:51:09,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, he seems like he's an even tempered guy.

4527
03:51:09,280 --> 03:51:11,960
Speaker 10: Yeah, one less clip, just because I'll I never want

4528
03:51:11,960 --> 03:51:12,840
Speaker 10: to talk about him again.

4529
03:51:12,960 --> 03:51:13,880
Speaker 1: So I'm going to get all that.

4530
03:51:14,800 --> 03:51:17,640
Speaker 10: I am the managing executive producer of this podcast. Let

4531
03:51:17,680 --> 03:51:18,200
Speaker 10: me have this.

4532
03:51:19,160 --> 03:51:20,680
Speaker 8: Thank you.

4533
03:51:20,680 --> 03:51:25,720
Speaker 1: You're on this club, dude, relaxed, bro, Look at hell's.

4534
03:51:25,520 --> 03:51:25,960
Speaker 10: Wrong with me?

4535
03:51:26,200 --> 03:51:27,040
Speaker 2: I hate that pitch.

4536
03:51:27,120 --> 03:51:28,080
Speaker 6: Excuse my French.

4537
03:51:28,640 --> 03:51:29,480
Speaker 19: Hey, you're crazy.

4538
03:51:29,760 --> 03:51:31,200
Speaker 2: You're looking me in a weirdo.

4539
03:51:31,400 --> 03:51:31,560
Speaker 6: Bro.

4540
03:51:31,840 --> 03:51:34,480
Speaker 13: They just yelled at me very knowledge. I'm so loud

4541
03:51:34,480 --> 03:51:36,840
Speaker 13: as somebody's yelled in my face for three years.

4542
03:51:36,920 --> 03:51:37,480
Speaker 6: I'm over you.

4543
03:51:37,560 --> 03:51:38,560
Speaker 2: I don't want to hear anything together.

4544
03:51:38,640 --> 03:51:39,760
Speaker 6: Tell me y'all in my day.

4545
03:51:39,880 --> 03:51:42,360
Speaker 13: Son walked away from me before we have a problem.

4546
03:51:43,480 --> 03:51:46,360
Speaker 12: Walk them away.

4547
03:51:46,360 --> 03:51:52,160
Speaker 6: God, you bo don't know how nazor science.

4548
03:51:52,800 --> 03:51:56,600
Speaker 13: Like I just really outed, like oh myself smashing his

4549
03:51:56,680 --> 03:51:57,640
Speaker 13: head off, you know, like.

4550
03:51:58,400 --> 03:51:59,160
Speaker 4: My pieces, Like.

4551
03:52:02,480 --> 03:52:04,440
Speaker 6: All right, so this is so this is like if

4552
03:52:04,480 --> 03:52:07,440
Speaker 6: like Clovicular run, like ran for office in like ten

4553
03:52:07,640 --> 03:52:10,680
Speaker 6: years yeah right, twenty years.

4554
03:52:10,520 --> 03:52:14,480
Speaker 10: Yeah yeah, And you know it's a reality TV show.

4555
03:52:14,640 --> 03:52:16,640
Speaker 10: You're right, there's parts of it that are scripted. There's

4556
03:52:16,640 --> 03:52:18,440
Speaker 10: parts of it that are enhanced, there's parts of it,

4557
03:52:18,520 --> 03:52:21,760
Speaker 10: but you can't you can't fake that fucking vein popping

4558
03:52:21,800 --> 03:52:22,560
Speaker 10: out of his head.

4559
03:52:23,080 --> 03:52:26,360
Speaker 2: A lot of it scripted, but you don't get passed,

4560
03:52:26,800 --> 03:52:29,320
Speaker 2: so to speak, to be that kind of character if

4561
03:52:29,360 --> 03:52:31,960
Speaker 2: you're not already a giant asshole, right, I.

4562
03:52:31,880 --> 03:52:34,840
Speaker 6: Mean yeah, it's in some ways less explicitly scripted than

4563
03:52:34,840 --> 03:52:39,320
Speaker 6: like WWE, but you you fall into certain roles because

4564
03:52:39,320 --> 03:52:41,440
Speaker 6: that's what you are getting paid to, Like that is

4565
03:52:41,640 --> 03:52:45,160
Speaker 6: your job is contingent on performing this kind of real

4566
03:52:45,280 --> 03:52:47,440
Speaker 6: not real thing. And I honestly, you know, like the

4567
03:52:47,680 --> 03:52:49,720
Speaker 6: sort of like like iol streamer thing is is a

4568
03:52:49,840 --> 03:52:52,520
Speaker 6: very similar version of that for the contemporary age. And

4569
03:52:52,520 --> 03:52:54,680
Speaker 6: I think so it really there was there was one

4570
03:52:54,680 --> 03:52:56,960
Speaker 6: specific like like line there that really reminded me of

4571
03:52:57,000 --> 03:53:00,640
Speaker 6: like one of one of clivioculars, like on cam Her meltdowns.

4572
03:53:00,680 --> 03:53:03,120
Speaker 6: I'm like, oh, this is really just if What if

4573
03:53:03,120 --> 03:53:05,520
Speaker 6: you had a guy like that just run for office

4574
03:53:05,840 --> 03:53:08,400
Speaker 6: for like the mayor of whatever city in like twenty years. Yeah.

4575
03:53:08,480 --> 03:53:09,920
Speaker 10: Yeah, well I want to talk a little bit about

4576
03:53:09,920 --> 03:53:13,600
Speaker 10: his campaign style. He shared this video on X the

4577
03:53:13,640 --> 03:53:17,360
Speaker 10: Everything app, and it got millions and millions of views,

4578
03:53:17,400 --> 03:53:20,200
Speaker 10: with people saying it's the best campaign video of all time,

4579
03:53:21,040 --> 03:53:22,520
Speaker 10: and so we're gonna play it for you now.

4580
03:53:22,720 --> 03:53:25,960
Speaker 3: No, it's more of him than I've ever seen.

4581
03:53:26,600 --> 03:53:27,680
Speaker 6: This is the Batman one.

4582
03:53:28,840 --> 03:53:29,560
Speaker 3: I haven't seen this.

4583
03:53:30,160 --> 03:53:30,560
Speaker 5: She was there.

4584
03:53:30,720 --> 03:53:31,960
Speaker 6: He did not make this video.

4585
03:53:32,120 --> 03:53:34,760
Speaker 10: He did not make this. He shared it and he

4586
03:53:34,760 --> 03:53:38,160
Speaker 10: he's big on the AI sharing video trend.

4587
03:53:38,280 --> 03:53:40,400
Speaker 1: Yes, his website is filled with it.

4588
03:53:40,520 --> 03:53:43,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, there have been a lot of AI videos in

4589
03:53:43,840 --> 03:53:44,760
Speaker 3: LA races time.

4590
03:53:44,840 --> 03:53:49,080
Speaker 6: There's been a lot of these LA election like Batman videos. Yes, yes,

4591
03:53:50,120 --> 03:53:52,440
Speaker 6: let's I guess. Let's watch this one.

4592
03:53:52,480 --> 03:53:54,720
Speaker 10: Sure until we get bored with it.

4593
03:53:54,840 --> 03:54:00,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, wait, hang on, just break that down.

4594
03:54:01,200 --> 03:54:04,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think this makes sense to watch a little bit.

4595
03:54:04,880 --> 03:54:07,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, we have to explain first. We start with

4596
03:54:07,920 --> 03:54:10,080
Speaker 2: the entire Hollywood sign of flame.

4597
03:54:12,760 --> 03:54:17,000
Speaker 7: You see is these these goons dressed in all black

4598
03:54:17,080 --> 03:54:23,800
Speaker 7: tactical gear with the white that says DSA, which is.

4599
03:54:23,120 --> 03:54:25,680
Speaker 6: One of the best things I've ever seen. That one

4600
03:54:25,640 --> 03:54:27,040
Speaker 6: of my favorite part about this game.

4601
03:54:27,320 --> 03:54:30,840
Speaker 2: Yes, the paramilitary DSA forces in Los.

4602
03:54:30,520 --> 03:54:33,680
Speaker 6: Angeles, and then it goes into this sort of dark

4603
03:54:33,760 --> 03:54:35,160
Speaker 6: Knight rises like courtroom.

4604
03:54:35,360 --> 03:54:37,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, Karen Bass in the.

4605
03:54:36,920 --> 03:54:39,680
Speaker 6: Middle, except Karen Bass has joker makeup and.

4606
03:54:39,920 --> 03:54:42,800
Speaker 10: Kamala Harris is I think drinking alcohol on one side

4607
03:54:42,840 --> 03:54:43,400
Speaker 10: and that's now.

4608
03:54:43,440 --> 03:54:45,920
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, she's just like straight from the bottle too.

4609
03:54:46,080 --> 03:54:46,840
Speaker 3: Is that all say too?

4610
03:54:46,880 --> 03:54:50,600
Speaker 2: I think there's a little bit of district fucking Hunger Games,

4611
03:54:50,760 --> 03:54:55,360
Speaker 2: the Hunger Games, the Hunger Games Capital in that design too, anyway.

4612
03:54:55,640 --> 03:54:59,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, and uh, Gavin Newsom's and likes, you know, like yeah,

4613
03:54:59,600 --> 03:55:00,920
Speaker 6: a wrist acratic garb.

4614
03:55:01,120 --> 03:55:02,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, that's Gavin.

4615
03:55:02,520 --> 03:55:07,880
Speaker 6: Okay, please, I'm begging you.

4616
03:55:08,360 --> 03:55:10,680
Speaker 10: There's homeless drug addicts in front of the schools.

4617
03:55:10,720 --> 03:55:11,840
Speaker 8: My children aren't safe.

4618
03:55:14,080 --> 03:55:16,520
Speaker 20: Look, if you were a transgender migrant, I could get

4619
03:55:16,560 --> 03:55:18,160
Speaker 20: you a free pussy all right.

4620
03:55:18,560 --> 03:55:27,040
Speaker 3: Wow, Wow, I know, holy shit, holy shit, I'm fascinated

4621
03:55:27,080 --> 03:55:28,440
Speaker 3: by what we've got amazing.

4622
03:55:28,560 --> 03:55:30,240
Speaker 6: James, have you not seen this before?

4623
03:55:30,400 --> 03:55:31,080
Speaker 3: Absolutely not.

4624
03:55:31,680 --> 03:55:32,840
Speaker 12: No, I haven't seen this either.

4625
03:55:33,200 --> 03:55:35,280
Speaker 6: I shared this video in our work chat like like

4626
03:55:35,360 --> 03:55:36,640
Speaker 6: a month and a half, like.

4627
03:55:36,680 --> 03:55:39,040
Speaker 12: Yeah, oh wait, no, shit, I have seen it.

4628
03:55:39,120 --> 03:55:40,840
Speaker 2: Oh god, I didn't watch.

4629
03:55:40,880 --> 03:55:43,200
Speaker 3: I've got to control my exposure to this shit. It's

4630
03:55:43,240 --> 03:55:46,160
Speaker 3: made me very angry. So we now have a marionette

4631
03:55:46,400 --> 03:55:47,960
Speaker 3: off like a Latina.

4632
03:55:48,800 --> 03:55:51,200
Speaker 2: Okay, god, yeah that makes sense.

4633
03:55:51,480 --> 03:55:54,120
Speaker 6: But there's like, d you say people? Do you say?

4634
03:55:54,360 --> 03:55:56,160
Speaker 6: Thugs and tact ol Gary, Plus they.

4635
03:55:56,080 --> 03:55:58,480
Speaker 2: Throw the woman on the ground who's complaining about Yeah

4636
03:55:58,520 --> 03:56:01,360
Speaker 2: that the homeless drug addicts. I think we're good.

4637
03:56:01,560 --> 03:56:04,440
Speaker 6: It's it's it's all that kind of stuff. It's yeah, whatever.

4638
03:56:04,680 --> 03:56:07,600
Speaker 10: There's like a fake Batman scene. They asked for Spencer

4639
03:56:07,760 --> 03:56:10,920
Speaker 10: Spencer and a fake Batman costume. Blah blah blah.

4640
03:56:11,080 --> 03:56:14,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, yeah, Spencer prattis Batman. That's that's Spencer

4641
03:56:14,560 --> 03:56:15,200
Speaker 6: Pratt's Batman.

4642
03:56:15,400 --> 03:56:17,920
Speaker 1: Yes, you know, that's the kind of stuff they's sharing.

4643
03:56:18,280 --> 03:56:20,560
Speaker 10: And you know, one of the biggest things he's run

4644
03:56:20,600 --> 03:56:22,280
Speaker 10: on is that his house was burned down and he

4645
03:56:22,360 --> 03:56:24,360
Speaker 10: was didn't have a place to live, and he claimed

4646
03:56:24,360 --> 03:56:27,920
Speaker 10: that he was living in a trailer on the property

4647
03:56:28,240 --> 03:56:30,480
Speaker 10: where his house used to be. And then it turned

4648
03:56:30,480 --> 03:56:33,720
Speaker 10: out that he was actually not staying in that trailer,

4649
03:56:33,760 --> 03:56:35,920
Speaker 10: but he was staying at the hotel bel Air, which

4650
03:56:35,960 --> 03:56:38,840
Speaker 10: is one of the nicest hotels in Los Angeles.

4651
03:56:38,960 --> 03:56:40,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, oh yeah.

4652
03:56:40,000 --> 03:56:44,040
Speaker 10: And in response to to that, he made this video.

4653
03:56:46,240 --> 03:56:49,200
Speaker 13: Now, this is a story all about how my life

4654
03:56:49,200 --> 03:56:53,160
Speaker 13: got certain upside down.

4655
03:56:54,160 --> 03:56:55,720
Speaker 2: The prince of itself called bel Air.

4656
03:56:56,200 --> 03:56:56,520
Speaker 3: Wow.

4657
03:56:56,720 --> 03:56:59,400
Speaker 2: Oh god, oh, I don't know. I don't want to

4658
03:56:59,400 --> 03:57:05,040
Speaker 2: get me no, no, no, millions.

4659
03:57:04,440 --> 03:57:06,480
Speaker 1: Of views, millions of views.

4660
03:57:07,040 --> 03:57:09,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this like weird.

4661
03:57:09,520 --> 03:57:17,080
Speaker 10: Rogue, no qualification political candidate thing is working. People are like,

4662
03:57:17,320 --> 03:57:19,880
Speaker 10: we need to change and I'm prott the BBC. In

4663
03:57:19,960 --> 03:57:22,640
Speaker 10: terms of fundraising during the race, Pratt has blown away

4664
03:57:22,680 --> 03:57:26,040
Speaker 10: the other two. He raised two point seven million dollars

4665
03:57:26,080 --> 03:57:30,000
Speaker 10: between April nineteenth and May sixteenth. That's nearly ten times

4666
03:57:30,040 --> 03:57:32,880
Speaker 10: what Bass, a longtime politician, raised in the same period,

4667
03:57:33,120 --> 03:57:36,480
Speaker 10: and approximately seven times what Nathio Raman raised.

4668
03:57:37,080 --> 03:57:39,600
Speaker 3: I mean, no one likes Bass, right, it's the other thing, Right,

4669
03:57:39,640 --> 03:57:43,320
Speaker 3: the Democrats have doubled down on doing exactly the same

4670
03:57:43,360 --> 03:57:46,840
Speaker 3: shit they've been doing for decades across California.

4671
03:57:47,120 --> 03:57:49,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's this like feckless moderate liberalism.

4672
03:57:49,640 --> 03:57:52,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, like cost oral libs will be how I describe

4673
03:57:52,600 --> 03:57:53,320
Speaker 3: the Democrats.

4674
03:57:53,520 --> 03:57:55,560
Speaker 10: Yeah, and just to say, like Nithia Rahm did enter

4675
03:57:55,600 --> 03:57:59,920
Speaker 10: the race late and she is far far left from Karen,

4676
03:58:00,880 --> 03:58:03,320
Speaker 10: So we're seeing that. But the thing that's really interesting

4677
03:58:03,400 --> 03:58:07,040
Speaker 10: to me about this is there's nine point six nine

4678
03:58:07,040 --> 03:58:11,240
Speaker 10: million people in La County, and you know, I'm comparing

4679
03:58:11,280 --> 03:58:13,360
Speaker 10: it to what I think will probably be about what

4680
03:58:13,480 --> 03:58:14,400
Speaker 10: it'll be for.

4681
03:58:14,400 --> 03:58:15,160
Speaker 1: Twenty twenty six.

4682
03:58:15,200 --> 03:58:17,520
Speaker 10: But in twenty twenty two, you know, Karen Bass got

4683
03:58:17,560 --> 03:58:20,240
Speaker 10: two hundred and seventy eight thousand votes, Rick Caruso only

4684
03:58:20,280 --> 03:58:22,720
Speaker 10: got two hundred and thirty two thousand votes, and Kevin

4685
03:58:22,760 --> 03:58:25,920
Speaker 10: dalone only got fifty thousand votes out of nine point

4686
03:58:25,920 --> 03:58:28,520
Speaker 10: six nine million people. That's the amount of people that

4687
03:58:28,640 --> 03:58:32,280
Speaker 10: actually voted in the primary in twenty twenty two. It's

4688
03:58:32,400 --> 03:58:35,960
Speaker 10: and it's looking to be very similar for twenty twenty six.

4689
03:58:36,160 --> 03:58:37,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, maybe even a little bit lower.

4690
03:58:37,680 --> 03:58:39,000
Speaker 10: I mean, I agree, I think it might be a

4691
03:58:39,040 --> 03:58:39,680
Speaker 10: little bit lower.

4692
03:58:39,800 --> 03:58:42,160
Speaker 6: That only has one hundred and fifty thousand votes, but

4693
03:58:42,160 --> 03:58:43,240
Speaker 6: he's in second place.

4694
03:58:43,280 --> 03:58:44,400
Speaker 10: He's in second place. Yeah.

4695
03:58:44,440 --> 03:58:47,280
Speaker 2: Again, this is interesting because you're seeing higher than in

4696
03:58:47,320 --> 03:58:49,800
Speaker 2: a lot of places, higher than average turnout, And I

4697
03:58:49,800 --> 03:58:52,280
Speaker 2: think part of why is just because most people voting

4698
03:58:52,360 --> 03:58:56,600
Speaker 2: know that, like with both the California mayor and gubernatorial elections,

4699
03:58:56,760 --> 03:59:01,480
Speaker 2: the likeliest outcome is like someone who isn't the worst

4700
03:59:01,480 --> 03:59:05,320
Speaker 2: possible choice, but isn't going to like make things better

4701
03:59:05,440 --> 03:59:06,960
Speaker 2: like Ella, He's not going to have a good mayre.

4702
03:59:07,360 --> 03:59:09,920
Speaker 2: Most people are fairly confident of that, and so there's

4703
03:59:09,960 --> 03:59:12,280
Speaker 2: just not a lot of there's not I don't think

4704
03:59:12,320 --> 03:59:14,600
Speaker 2: people are very motivated because they feel like, what the

4705
03:59:14,600 --> 03:59:16,240
Speaker 2: fuck is the point of caring about?

4706
03:59:16,360 --> 03:59:16,880
Speaker 1: Sure this?

4707
03:59:17,280 --> 03:59:18,920
Speaker 2: You know, and I don't. I'm not saying that's the

4708
03:59:19,000 --> 03:59:20,760
Speaker 2: right way to look at it. I'm just saying that

4709
03:59:20,760 --> 03:59:22,760
Speaker 2: that's what I think is part of what's going on here.

4710
03:59:23,120 --> 03:59:25,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I know, like just from the discourse around

4711
03:59:26,040 --> 03:59:30,720
Speaker 3: San Diego, like people they're tired of being shamed into

4712
03:59:30,800 --> 03:59:33,720
Speaker 3: vote for like some medio care asque candidate who will

4713
03:59:33,920 --> 03:59:36,040
Speaker 3: just give all the money to the cops like the

4714
03:59:36,120 --> 03:59:37,720
Speaker 3: last five Mays have done.

4715
03:59:37,920 --> 03:59:40,360
Speaker 10: Yeah, We're going to keep seeing these kind of candidates.

4716
03:59:40,400 --> 03:59:42,400
Speaker 10: It's going to become a regular thing. We even have,

4717
03:59:42,520 --> 03:59:46,200
Speaker 10: you know, Jersey Shore star Mike the situation, Sarantino saying

4718
03:59:46,200 --> 03:59:48,760
Speaker 10: he's thinking about running for a New Jersey governor. I

4719
03:59:48,800 --> 03:59:52,040
Speaker 10: hate this trend. This trend sucks. And in the words

4720
03:59:52,040 --> 03:59:55,360
Speaker 10: of Louren Conrad, he's a sucky person. He's a sucky person.

4721
03:59:55,560 --> 03:59:58,760
Speaker 10: I hate Spencer. I'm never gonna like Spencer. Please don't

4722
03:59:58,760 --> 04:00:01,920
Speaker 10: make him your mayor. Los Angeles do better. He's awful,

4723
04:00:02,280 --> 04:00:07,800
Speaker 10: he's horrific, he hates unhouse people. Terrible person, no bad shame.

4724
04:00:08,400 --> 04:00:09,440
Speaker 1: I'm done.

4725
04:00:09,640 --> 04:00:11,280
Speaker 10: I hope to never to have to talk about this

4726
04:00:11,320 --> 04:00:12,600
Speaker 10: person ever again.

4727
04:00:13,240 --> 04:00:14,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

4728
04:00:14,160 --> 04:00:17,840
Speaker 6: So, in case people don't know, the two top winners

4729
04:00:17,880 --> 04:00:20,880
Speaker 6: of the LA mayoral primary advance to a runoff. So

4730
04:00:21,120 --> 04:00:23,760
Speaker 6: Bath is going to be there. She is in the

4731
04:00:23,840 --> 04:00:27,880
Speaker 6: lead and right now is between Pratt and Raman and Presley.

4732
04:00:27,880 --> 04:00:30,120
Speaker 6: The second place has been sliding as more and more

4733
04:00:30,200 --> 04:00:34,280
Speaker 6: votes come in, but as of Wednesday afternoon, he's still

4734
04:00:34,280 --> 04:00:40,280
Speaker 6: in second. As for governor, Yeah, Steve Hilton, Republican is

4735
04:00:40,360 --> 04:00:44,600
Speaker 6: in the number one spot with one point three almost

4736
04:00:44,640 --> 04:00:48,400
Speaker 6: one point four million votes as of Wednesday afternoon. Sarah's

4737
04:00:48,520 --> 04:00:51,840
Speaker 6: in number two with twenty five percent of the vote.

4738
04:00:51,920 --> 04:00:56,240
Speaker 6: Tom Steyer is in number three with almost twenty percent

4739
04:00:56,320 --> 04:00:59,000
Speaker 6: of the vote, and this is about fifty five percent

4740
04:00:59,080 --> 04:01:03,520
Speaker 6: of the vote in Sero's former Biden Cabinet member, Health

4741
04:01:03,520 --> 04:01:06,920
Speaker 6: and Human Services secretary. Yeah, so more of kind of

4742
04:01:07,000 --> 04:01:11,120
Speaker 6: moderate liberal stire stire, the more progressive candidate. But it

4743
04:01:11,160 --> 04:01:14,000
Speaker 6: seems because he is a billionaire, that did in some

4744
04:01:14,080 --> 04:01:17,160
Speaker 6: ways effect like enthusiasm to vote for him. On the

4745
04:01:17,320 --> 04:01:21,440
Speaker 6: Democratic side, yeah, there's another Republican candidate who's in fourth

4746
04:01:21,480 --> 04:01:23,640
Speaker 6: place with over half a million votes.

4747
04:01:23,760 --> 04:01:27,040
Speaker 10: But again, the amount of votes that are actually happening

4748
04:01:27,280 --> 04:01:31,080
Speaker 10: compared to the amount of people is insane.

4749
04:01:31,400 --> 04:01:32,360
Speaker 4: It's so low.

4750
04:01:32,880 --> 04:01:33,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really bad.

4751
04:01:34,240 --> 04:01:36,880
Speaker 3: There's a massive field of candidates, but that no one

4752
04:01:36,960 --> 04:01:40,600
Speaker 3: really captured the imagination of people here. No one would

4753
04:01:40,760 --> 04:01:43,520
Speaker 3: enthusiastic for this. No, I guess so I can cover

4754
04:01:43,560 --> 04:01:45,800
Speaker 3: a couple of small San Diego things quickly. San Diego

4755
04:01:45,880 --> 04:01:50,240
Speaker 3: Measure a missa A was a tax on second homes

4756
04:01:50,360 --> 04:01:54,600
Speaker 3: defined as unoccupied the majority of the year. Tear Yeah

4757
04:01:54,640 --> 04:01:57,000
Speaker 3: it it looks like it's going.

4758
04:01:56,840 --> 04:02:00,280
Speaker 6: Moving the nation. Oh it's not super sorry it's not yet.

4759
04:02:00,520 --> 04:02:04,000
Speaker 3: Yeah and voviously not like it's I mean, there is

4760
04:02:04,040 --> 04:02:06,640
Speaker 3: nothing that unite San die against more than hating tourists.

4761
04:02:07,000 --> 04:02:09,120
Speaker 3: But I think you have this interesting alliance of like

4762
04:02:09,360 --> 04:02:12,880
Speaker 3: Boomer homeowners thinking this will mess with their property prices

4763
04:02:12,920 --> 04:02:16,160
Speaker 3: and generally not wanting to pay taxes. Yeah, and people

4764
04:02:16,200 --> 04:02:18,520
Speaker 3: who understand that any money we give to our city

4765
04:02:18,600 --> 04:02:20,680
Speaker 3: is just going to go directly to the cops.

4766
04:02:20,960 --> 04:02:22,880
Speaker 6: Where do you get that idea from that? That is

4767
04:02:23,120 --> 04:02:25,120
Speaker 6: a sentiment among the people who voted for this, Like

4768
04:02:25,240 --> 04:02:26,960
Speaker 6: is this like demonstrated anywhere?

4769
04:02:27,160 --> 04:02:29,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like if you go if you look on social media, right,

4770
04:02:29,760 --> 04:02:33,920
Speaker 3: like let's say San Diego, next Door, Reddit, et cetera. Right,

4771
04:02:34,120 --> 04:02:37,840
Speaker 3: and then from meetings like we've had discussions within unions

4772
04:02:37,840 --> 04:02:40,400
Speaker 3: I'm part of. Like, so if you look at what

4773
04:02:40,400 --> 04:02:42,600
Speaker 3: our city is doing right now, it's slashing the arts budget,

4774
04:02:42,680 --> 04:02:46,760
Speaker 3: it's slashing the park's budget. Yeah, it's slashing everything apart

4775
04:02:46,800 --> 04:02:49,760
Speaker 3: from the police budget, which is continuing to increase. Right

4776
04:02:50,040 --> 04:02:52,880
Speaker 3: Most notably in San Diego, they have started to try

4777
04:02:52,920 --> 04:02:55,680
Speaker 3: and charge for parking at the park and at the

4778
04:02:55,680 --> 04:02:59,960
Speaker 3: beach and on major thoroughfares, which, like charging sandy against

4779
04:03:00,120 --> 04:03:02,600
Speaker 3: go to the beach, is the most radicalizing thing that

4780
04:03:02,640 --> 04:03:05,760
Speaker 3: any politician could ever do. It's incredibly stupid as a

4781
04:03:05,800 --> 04:03:10,200
Speaker 3: revenue generating measure, Like people have people have vandalized parking

4782
04:03:10,280 --> 04:03:14,160
Speaker 3: machines in very boushy neighborhoods because this is just like

4783
04:03:14,240 --> 04:03:17,640
Speaker 3: so offensive to people, and I think there's like just

4784
04:03:17,680 --> 04:03:23,240
Speaker 3: a growing disgust with our mayor. And then like the

4785
04:03:23,320 --> 04:03:25,560
Speaker 3: idea that giving them any more money would result in

4786
04:03:25,600 --> 04:03:28,240
Speaker 3: better outcomes for people just doesn't kind of fly anymore,

4787
04:03:28,400 --> 04:03:30,680
Speaker 3: if that makes sense, Like they've they've done all these

4788
04:03:30,720 --> 04:03:32,440
Speaker 3: revenue generating measures.

4789
04:03:32,280 --> 04:03:34,800
Speaker 6: It's it's like a lost loss in faith that any

4790
04:03:35,040 --> 04:03:38,000
Speaker 6: revenue will actually just go towards each things. They're like

4791
04:03:38,080 --> 04:03:38,680
Speaker 6: cenrible thing.

4792
04:03:38,960 --> 04:03:41,120
Speaker 3: Our city spent I think one hundred million on a

4793
04:03:41,120 --> 04:03:43,840
Speaker 3: building filled with asbestos, which is worth less money than

4794
04:03:43,880 --> 04:03:46,080
Speaker 3: the land would be if the building wasn't on it,

4795
04:03:46,400 --> 04:03:50,160
Speaker 3: and from years and years tried to kind of play

4796
04:03:50,200 --> 04:03:53,840
Speaker 3: political football with the fact that they bought a cancer tower, Like, yeah,

4797
04:03:53,880 --> 04:03:56,760
Speaker 3: there's a reason that San Diego is sometimes referred to

4798
04:03:56,800 --> 04:04:00,000
Speaker 3: as Enron by the Sea, and I think folks are

4799
04:04:00,480 --> 04:04:02,920
Speaker 3: folks are kind of having enough of it, reissuing under

4800
04:04:02,960 --> 04:04:05,240
Speaker 3: the perfect son for folks who want to read more

4801
04:04:05,280 --> 04:04:07,080
Speaker 3: about San Diego politics.

4802
04:04:07,280 --> 04:04:09,400
Speaker 6: This sort of an alliance between like small capital, you know,

4803
04:04:09,400 --> 04:04:11,760
Speaker 6: people who don't want to pay for a tax on

4804
04:04:11,800 --> 04:04:14,520
Speaker 6: the second home. That alliance with people who like lost

4805
04:04:14,560 --> 04:04:18,600
Speaker 6: faith in city services, right, who are going to oppose

4806
04:04:18,680 --> 04:04:21,200
Speaker 6: funding because they don't think it's actually like worthwhile. That's

4807
04:04:21,240 --> 04:04:24,040
Speaker 6: an interesting coalition of the modern moment.

4808
04:04:24,240 --> 04:04:27,160
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah. Yeah, And it's definitely like a creation of

4809
04:04:27,560 --> 04:04:29,760
Speaker 3: like specifically in California, right, this idea that we don't

4810
04:04:29,760 --> 04:04:31,880
Speaker 3: get to choose basically we're going to get a Democrat,

4811
04:04:32,000 --> 04:04:35,200
Speaker 3: and that Democrat will just do whatever they want. It's

4812
04:04:35,240 --> 04:04:38,280
Speaker 3: made that position very appealing to people, I guess maybe

4813
04:04:38,320 --> 04:04:40,520
Speaker 3: go from California. I do want to mention just briefly

4814
04:04:41,080 --> 04:04:45,240
Speaker 3: that Sam Forstag won the Democrat primary from Montana's House district.

4815
04:04:45,520 --> 04:04:49,040
Speaker 3: This is really interesting. He's a progressive union organizer. He

4816
04:04:49,160 --> 04:04:51,760
Speaker 3: used to be a smoke jumper for a service firefighter.

4817
04:04:52,600 --> 04:04:56,800
Speaker 3: He is one of those folks who was, like I

4818
04:04:56,800 --> 04:05:00,240
Speaker 3: guess his entry into national politics came from Doge was

4819
04:05:00,280 --> 04:05:03,760
Speaker 3: cutting all these guys like GS two people right, people

4820
04:05:03,800 --> 04:05:06,320
Speaker 3: at the Forest Service, people at these big public lands

4821
04:05:06,360 --> 04:05:10,720
Speaker 3: management agencies who are making barely making a living. Yeah,

4822
04:05:10,760 --> 04:05:12,560
Speaker 3: and anson who have struggled for a long time in

4823
04:05:12,600 --> 04:05:15,800
Speaker 3: places like Bozeman, right, where the second homeowners have driven

4824
04:05:15,840 --> 04:05:20,320
Speaker 3: out the pricing significantly. That sort of pathway to progressive

4825
04:05:20,320 --> 04:05:22,560
Speaker 3: politics is one that's very interesting to me and when

4826
04:05:22,600 --> 04:05:24,480
Speaker 3: I want to do a lot more reporting on. But

4827
04:05:24,520 --> 04:05:26,560
Speaker 3: I thought it was a positive sign to see him

4828
04:05:26,560 --> 04:05:27,440
Speaker 3: winning that primary.

4829
04:05:27,760 --> 04:05:30,320
Speaker 6: Speaking of elections, before we go on break, I do

4830
04:05:30,440 --> 04:05:33,560
Speaker 6: want to talk about the Supreme Court, following up on

4831
04:05:33,600 --> 04:05:37,200
Speaker 6: a story from last week. Last week, our final segment

4832
04:05:37,240 --> 04:05:39,520
Speaker 6: on the show was on the five year battle in

4833
04:05:39,600 --> 04:05:43,000
Speaker 6: Alabama over two different house maps, or technically three, but

4834
04:05:43,200 --> 04:05:46,120
Speaker 6: the Republican ones were very similar. It was about these

4835
04:05:46,240 --> 04:05:49,120
Speaker 6: Republican drawn maps that have only one black majority district

4836
04:05:49,520 --> 04:05:53,000
Speaker 6: and a court ordered map that has two, following the

4837
04:05:53,000 --> 04:05:55,360
Speaker 6: Supreme Court's weakening of Section two, the Voilting Rights Actor

4838
04:05:55,360 --> 04:05:59,080
Speaker 6: earlier this year. Late last month, a federal district court

4839
04:05:59,280 --> 04:06:03,080
Speaker 6: ruled that the up drawn map in Alabama intentionally discriminated

4840
04:06:03,120 --> 04:06:05,920
Speaker 6: based on race and diluted the voting power of black

4841
04:06:05,920 --> 04:06:09,000
Speaker 6: Alabama's So they placed an injunction on that map and

4842
04:06:09,280 --> 04:06:12,080
Speaker 6: ordered the state to use the court approved map that

4843
04:06:12,160 --> 04:06:15,480
Speaker 6: was already in use in previous elections for the upcoming primaries.

4844
04:06:16,040 --> 04:06:19,040
Speaker 6: This ruling was appealed to the Supreme Court, who on

4845
04:06:19,160 --> 04:06:23,400
Speaker 6: Tuesday night overruled a district court issuing a four page

4846
04:06:23,560 --> 04:06:28,200
Speaker 6: unsigned shadow docket ruling allowing Alabama to use the GOP

4847
04:06:28,400 --> 04:06:31,760
Speaker 6: map that eliminates a black majority or a black opportunity.

4848
04:06:32,120 --> 04:06:35,800
Speaker 6: District Supreme Court said that the state is likely to

4849
04:06:35,840 --> 04:06:38,960
Speaker 6: succeed on the merits of its claims quote. At this

4850
04:06:39,040 --> 04:06:42,160
Speaker 6: preliminary stage, the state has shown that it is entitled

4851
04:06:42,200 --> 04:06:46,560
Speaker 6: to interim relief from the District Court's injunction. So this

4852
04:06:46,640 --> 04:06:50,360
Speaker 6: is the first time the Supreme Court has evaluated another

4853
04:06:50,520 --> 04:06:55,040
Speaker 6: court's interpretation of their Louisiana ruling, and in this case,

4854
04:06:55,080 --> 04:06:58,160
Speaker 6: the Supreme Court is saying the District Court got it wrong.

4855
04:06:58,880 --> 04:07:02,200
Speaker 6: In the updated rules for Section two is a part

4856
04:07:02,200 --> 04:07:05,240
Speaker 6: of the Louisiana ruling. In order to succeed in arguing

4857
04:07:05,240 --> 04:07:09,000
Speaker 6: a Section two violation, plaintiffs have to submit an alternative

4858
04:07:09,040 --> 04:07:13,920
Speaker 6: map that must quote meet all the states legitimate districting

4859
04:07:13,960 --> 04:07:18,960
Speaker 6: objectives just as well as the state's own map, including

4860
04:07:19,040 --> 04:07:24,520
Speaker 6: quote unquote the states specified political goals and any other

4861
04:07:24,680 --> 04:07:30,440
Speaker 6: goal not prohibited by the Constitution. So the alternative map

4862
04:07:30,480 --> 04:07:33,160
Speaker 6: that plaintiffs need to submit when challenging them at based

4863
04:07:33,200 --> 04:07:35,840
Speaker 6: on Section two has to have the same like partisan

4864
04:07:36,480 --> 04:07:40,360
Speaker 6: goals represented. Is what these updated rules in the Louisiana

4865
04:07:40,440 --> 04:07:42,840
Speaker 6: ruling instead, and Supreme Court said that this was not

4866
04:07:43,040 --> 04:07:47,440
Speaker 6: followed by the District Court's ruling. Section two challenges must

4867
04:07:47,480 --> 04:07:51,600
Speaker 6: also quote provide an analysis that controls for party affiliation

4868
04:07:52,240 --> 04:07:56,680
Speaker 6: and quote show that voters engage in racial block voting

4869
04:07:56,920 --> 04:08:02,680
Speaker 6: that cannot be explained by partisan affiliation. So, basically, the

4870
04:08:02,720 --> 04:08:06,240
Speaker 6: Supreme Court claimed that the district court ordered map fails

4871
04:08:06,280 --> 04:08:10,480
Speaker 6: to do all this by not maintaining the state's quote

4872
04:08:10,840 --> 04:08:16,280
Speaker 6: constitutionally permissible community of interest on the Gulf Coast by

4873
04:08:16,280 --> 04:08:18,880
Speaker 6: cutting into a section of the Gulf Coast in the

4874
04:08:18,880 --> 04:08:24,040
Speaker 6: Black Opportunity District, also failing to avoid contests between incumbents.

4875
04:08:24,280 --> 04:08:26,880
Speaker 6: The Supreme Court said that the District Court's ruling quote unquote,

4876
04:08:26,880 --> 04:08:30,560
Speaker 6: departed from the updated standards set in the Louisiana ruling.

4877
04:08:30,880 --> 04:08:35,400
Speaker 6: Quote as to intentional vote dilution, the District Court did

4878
04:08:35,400 --> 04:08:40,320
Speaker 6: not heed the presumption of legislative good faith because it

4879
04:08:40,440 --> 04:08:45,000
Speaker 6: interpreted the state's legal disagreement with the court's earlier remedial

4880
04:08:45,120 --> 04:08:50,600
Speaker 6: order as proof of discriminatory animus unquote. Scotus is basically

4881
04:08:50,640 --> 04:08:55,840
Speaker 6: saying that just because it was definitively demonstrated to Alabama

4882
04:08:55,880 --> 04:09:00,320
Speaker 6: Republicans that their map had a discriminatory effect, and then

4883
04:09:00,360 --> 04:09:05,080
Speaker 6: they pass it anyway, that itself does not qualify as intent.

4884
04:09:05,800 --> 04:09:10,800
Speaker 6: So showing quote unquote intent is effectively impossible, like at

4885
04:09:10,800 --> 04:09:13,840
Speaker 6: this point, because we maps can be sliced uff like crazy,

4886
04:09:13,840 --> 04:09:16,840
Speaker 6: and they can just do that based on party. And

4887
04:09:16,880 --> 04:09:19,400
Speaker 6: this is what the Supreme Court is saying, quote. The

4888
04:09:19,400 --> 04:09:22,720
Speaker 6: District Court also failed to follow our instructions that the

4889
04:09:22,760 --> 04:09:25,920
Speaker 6: mere fact that voters of different races vote for different

4890
04:09:25,960 --> 04:09:31,880
Speaker 6: parties is not relevant to proving racially polarized voting patterns unquote.

4891
04:09:32,160 --> 04:09:35,680
Speaker 6: And this was specifically the thing I was most curious

4892
04:09:35,680 --> 04:09:39,960
Speaker 6: about is if this idea that the District Court wrote,

4893
04:09:40,440 --> 04:09:43,520
Speaker 6: if this idea that showing someone that their map is

4894
04:09:43,560 --> 04:09:46,120
Speaker 6: doing discrimination, if you show someone that and then they

4895
04:09:46,160 --> 04:09:49,360
Speaker 6: pass it anyway, does that prove that that person then

4896
04:09:49,400 --> 04:09:52,160
Speaker 6: had intent because they knew it was discriminatory. And the

4897
04:09:52,200 --> 04:09:54,120
Speaker 6: Supreme Court is saying, no, that does not That does

4898
04:09:54,160 --> 04:09:56,760
Speaker 6: not actually show intent. That is the main way that

4899
04:09:56,800 --> 04:10:01,920
Speaker 6: the Supreme Court has overruled the district court ruling. They

4900
04:10:01,960 --> 04:10:04,240
Speaker 6: also argue that the district Court meddled in the state

4901
04:10:04,280 --> 04:10:07,760
Speaker 6: election too close to the primary, even though it's actually

4902
04:10:07,800 --> 04:10:10,360
Speaker 6: the Supreme Court ruling that is green lighting with this

4903
04:10:10,480 --> 04:10:14,480
Speaker 6: redistricting midway through the primary process. But that's kind of

4904
04:10:14,480 --> 04:10:16,360
Speaker 6: the added on at the very end of the of

4905
04:10:16,440 --> 04:10:18,920
Speaker 6: the four page on sign shadow docket ruling.

4906
04:10:19,840 --> 04:10:22,400
Speaker 12: The macro level implication of this is that the Voting

4907
04:10:22,400 --> 04:10:25,400
Speaker 12: Breich's Tract is unenforceable, like the parts of the Voting

4908
04:10:25,440 --> 04:10:28,840
Speaker 12: Right DAC that are supposed to protect from literally this

4909
04:10:29,200 --> 04:10:34,760
Speaker 12: specific thing, this specific thing of intentionally deluding black people's

4910
04:10:34,840 --> 04:10:37,760
Speaker 12: votes so that they can't elect candidates was the Jim

4911
04:10:37,760 --> 04:10:40,400
Speaker 12: Crow practice. At this part YEP of the Voting Right

4912
04:10:40,440 --> 04:10:43,240
Speaker 12: track was specifically designed to do, and you can't do

4913
04:10:43,360 --> 04:10:46,920
Speaker 12: it anymore. It is just the Supreme Court has decided

4914
04:10:47,040 --> 04:10:49,560
Speaker 12: that this part of the Voting Right Zack doesn't exist. Yeah,

4915
04:10:49,640 --> 04:10:52,320
Speaker 12: And and they've decided this because they want to they want

4916
04:10:52,360 --> 04:10:55,960
Speaker 12: to do racist Jerry Manderin's Republicans can win elections. And

4917
04:10:56,000 --> 04:10:58,920
Speaker 12: that's I don't know, I mean, like arguably the death

4918
04:10:58,920 --> 04:11:02,360
Speaker 12: of multiracial like any semblance of multi racial democracy in

4919
04:11:02,400 --> 04:11:07,200
Speaker 12: the US, which is not great. Yeah, I don't know,

4920
04:11:07,520 --> 04:11:10,440
Speaker 12: it's it's really really bad.

4921
04:11:10,800 --> 04:11:13,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's it's what they've been working for

4922
04:11:13,800 --> 04:11:16,400
Speaker 2: for decades, right, It's what the Yarban's always talking about right,

4923
04:11:16,400 --> 04:11:19,280
Speaker 2: it's repealing the twentieth century, you know, like that has

4924
04:11:19,320 --> 04:11:21,520
Speaker 2: been the goal for a very long time, and they

4925
04:11:21,560 --> 04:11:23,600
Speaker 2: see this as one of the most important steps towards

4926
04:11:23,640 --> 04:11:23,960
Speaker 2: doing that.

4927
04:11:24,240 --> 04:11:26,160
Speaker 3: Yes, he's pretty devastating.

4928
04:11:27,920 --> 04:11:29,600
Speaker 6: I think there is a way to do. I think

4929
04:11:29,640 --> 04:11:33,200
Speaker 6: some more in depth analysis, like on this topic that

4930
04:11:33,320 --> 04:11:34,400
Speaker 6: might have to be in the future.

4931
04:11:34,840 --> 04:11:37,000
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean I did a full episode on this,

4932
04:11:37,160 --> 04:11:38,200
Speaker 12: like a couple of weeks ago.

4933
04:11:38,720 --> 04:11:41,280
Speaker 6: I mean specifically the way that the interpretation in the

4934
04:11:41,280 --> 04:11:44,400
Speaker 6: shadow Dotocket ruling, how it clarifies certain things, like, you know,

4935
04:11:44,520 --> 04:11:49,960
Speaker 6: just because statistically different races may vote for different parties,

4936
04:11:50,040 --> 04:11:53,880
Speaker 6: that does not actually prove racially polarized voting powdern like's

4937
04:11:53,920 --> 04:11:55,960
Speaker 6: there's certain things here that we can do a lot

4938
04:11:56,000 --> 04:11:59,800
Speaker 6: more analysis of, and like in terms of proving an intent,

4939
04:12:00,560 --> 04:12:02,760
Speaker 6: a lot of states don't even need to do like

4940
04:12:02,920 --> 04:12:06,680
Speaker 6: mustache twirling, I'm going to look at race maps and

4941
04:12:06,760 --> 04:12:09,640
Speaker 6: draw it based on race maps. They can just draw

4942
04:12:09,720 --> 04:12:13,560
Speaker 6: based on party affiliation, and that is going to get

4943
04:12:13,640 --> 04:12:15,880
Speaker 6: the party the actual effect right, because these maps are

4944
04:12:15,960 --> 04:12:18,080
Speaker 6: passed by the party that's in control of the state

4945
04:12:18,160 --> 04:12:20,920
Speaker 6: legislature and they want to maintain power with their party,

4946
04:12:21,120 --> 04:12:22,720
Speaker 6: So that's going to be the most effective way to

4947
04:12:22,760 --> 04:12:25,120
Speaker 6: do that. And if they just do that, then there

4948
04:12:25,400 --> 04:12:27,920
Speaker 6: leaves very little ground for these maps to be challenged

4949
04:12:27,920 --> 04:12:30,640
Speaker 6: on any sorts of racial grounds, even if there is

4950
04:12:30,720 --> 04:12:33,520
Speaker 6: racial discrimination as an effect. Right, And this was the

4951
04:12:33,560 --> 04:12:36,760
Speaker 6: biggest change of the Supreme Court ruling in Louisiana. It

4952
04:12:36,880 --> 04:12:40,280
Speaker 6: was a Ledo right who technically wrote that one. Yeah, yeah,

4953
04:12:40,440 --> 04:12:42,720
Speaker 6: but being like, like, we are in a different place,

4954
04:12:43,240 --> 04:12:46,000
Speaker 6: we are in a different social place now than when

4955
04:12:46,000 --> 04:12:48,680
Speaker 6: the Voterarts Act was passed, and so therefore we are

4956
04:12:48,680 --> 04:12:52,440
Speaker 6: going to update these rules accordingly. Even though literally, you know,

4957
04:12:52,560 --> 04:12:55,640
Speaker 6: three years ago the Supreme Court was ruling in the

4958
04:12:55,680 --> 04:13:00,160
Speaker 6: opposite way in Alabama in a very similar situation. The

4959
04:13:00,240 --> 04:13:02,880
Speaker 6: change in those few years is very stark. And this

4960
04:13:02,920 --> 04:13:06,240
Speaker 6: is all goes downstream from the ruling in twenty nineteen

4961
04:13:06,280 --> 04:13:10,560
Speaker 6: that specifically allows partisan jerrymandering, because there's no law in

4962
04:13:10,560 --> 04:13:13,120
Speaker 6: the United States disallowing that. So like the Supreme Court

4963
04:13:13,200 --> 04:13:15,120
Speaker 6: is like, we cannot make a new law by saying

4964
04:13:15,120 --> 04:13:17,640
Speaker 6: this isn't allowed, because there's just no law in the books.

4965
04:13:17,680 --> 04:13:20,480
Speaker 6: So if if legislation wants to pass laws against that,

4966
04:13:20,480 --> 04:13:24,520
Speaker 6: then they can but we cannot disallowed partisan jerry manoring

4967
04:13:24,600 --> 04:13:27,440
Speaker 6: in the courts effectively because there's no law preventing it.

4968
04:13:27,840 --> 04:13:31,480
Speaker 12: Yeah, and it's worth keeping in mind that the specific

4969
04:13:31,560 --> 04:13:34,920
Speaker 12: standard in the Voting Rights Act literally says effects, which

4970
04:13:35,040 --> 04:13:37,800
Speaker 12: was just specifically an effects based test and not an

4971
04:13:37,840 --> 04:13:41,840
Speaker 12: interpretation or like not a like proving intent test. And

4972
04:13:41,960 --> 04:13:44,600
Speaker 12: the Supreme Court was just like, no, fuck you. So

4973
04:13:45,080 --> 04:13:47,360
Speaker 12: that's sort of just where we are now legally, is

4974
04:13:47,400 --> 04:13:50,560
Speaker 12: that they're just making up what they think the test

4975
04:13:50,680 --> 04:13:52,760
Speaker 12: should be and making everyone else follow that.

4976
04:13:54,960 --> 04:13:57,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean three three justices did dissent in this

4977
04:13:57,880 --> 04:14:01,240
Speaker 6: recent ruling, sort of aur Kagan and Jackson, they wrote,

4978
04:14:01,280 --> 04:14:04,880
Speaker 6: quote before the Court are two paths. Down one lies

4979
04:14:04,920 --> 04:14:08,040
Speaker 6: an orderly election held under a tried and tested congressional

4980
04:14:08,040 --> 04:14:10,840
Speaker 6: map that protects black Alabama's right to vote and with

4981
04:14:10,880 --> 04:14:14,800
Speaker 6: which all voters, election officials, and candidates alike are familiar.

4982
04:14:15,320 --> 04:14:18,400
Speaker 6: Down the other lies a chaotic election held under a

4983
04:14:18,520 --> 04:14:22,000
Speaker 6: never before use congressional map that intentionally discriminates against Black

4984
04:14:22,000 --> 04:14:26,200
Speaker 6: Alabama's that Alabama adopted in unabashed defiance of a prior

4985
04:14:26,280 --> 04:14:29,880
Speaker 6: court order directly affirmed by this Court, and that will

4986
04:14:29,880 --> 04:14:33,320
Speaker 6: require official to change the voter registrations of hundreds of

4987
04:14:33,360 --> 04:14:37,000
Speaker 6: thousands of voters in just days at best, a task

4988
04:14:37,000 --> 04:14:42,200
Speaker 6: Alabama previously represented would take months. The majority chooses the

4989
04:14:42,280 --> 04:14:46,040
Speaker 6: second path and disregards both democratic values and the rule

4990
04:14:46,080 --> 04:14:50,640
Speaker 6: of law. I respectfully dissent. We'll go on a break

4991
04:14:50,720 --> 04:14:54,600
Speaker 6: now and conclude with one more section of the.

4992
04:15:06,120 --> 04:15:08,080
Speaker 1: And we are back.

4993
04:15:09,200 --> 04:15:15,160
Speaker 12: So, all right, we need to talk about a fairly

4994
04:15:15,160 --> 04:15:19,960
Speaker 12: obscure bureaucratic rule change that is being rushed out by

4995
04:15:20,600 --> 04:15:23,840
Speaker 12: the Office of Management and Budget OMB, which is where

4996
04:15:25,040 --> 04:15:28,720
Speaker 12: it's the management bureaucracy office that's currently headed by one

4997
04:15:28,760 --> 04:15:32,280
Speaker 12: of the guys who wrote Project twenty twenty five. This

4998
04:15:32,560 --> 04:15:37,280
Speaker 12: change that they are proposing right now is effectively the

4999
04:15:37,320 --> 04:15:43,560
Speaker 12: formalization of all of the sort of DOGE cuts and

5000
04:15:43,600 --> 04:15:48,800
Speaker 12: then sort of post DOGE departmental cuts of grants from

5001
04:15:48,840 --> 04:15:52,080
Speaker 12: the US government. The way this is largely being covered

5002
04:15:52,120 --> 04:15:54,480
Speaker 12: right now, and I understand why we're going to run

5003
04:15:54,480 --> 04:15:57,560
Speaker 12: through that one first, is that this is effectively the

5004
04:15:57,600 --> 04:16:00,520
Speaker 12: death of American science. Because one of the things that

5005
04:16:01,240 --> 04:16:04,960
Speaker 12: this does, it's like a four hundred page document. One

5006
04:16:05,000 --> 04:16:07,840
Speaker 12: of the early sessions of it is that instead of

5007
04:16:08,520 --> 04:16:12,920
Speaker 12: the current system where grants for scientific projects go before

5008
04:16:13,040 --> 04:16:17,360
Speaker 12: a peer review committee of scientists that are usually independent,

5009
04:16:18,080 --> 04:16:21,640
Speaker 12: and then those scientists give their recommendations to the department

5010
04:16:21,720 --> 04:16:24,160
Speaker 12: on whether or not this is a good use of funds,

5011
04:16:24,160 --> 04:16:28,160
Speaker 12: and then department executes those recommendations. Right, so grants are

5012
04:16:28,160 --> 04:16:32,480
Speaker 12: determined by scientific by a scientific peer review process. This

5013
04:16:32,800 --> 04:16:36,280
Speaker 12: kills that and says that instead of agent the way

5014
04:16:36,280 --> 04:16:38,640
Speaker 12: that it has worked, which is that agencies adopt the

5015
04:16:38,680 --> 04:16:42,240
Speaker 12: recommendations of it. This has not been how it works formally, like,

5016
04:16:42,320 --> 04:16:44,880
Speaker 12: it hasn't been a legal stipulation that this is how

5017
04:16:44,880 --> 04:16:47,520
Speaker 12: it works. But this is just literally how all science

5018
04:16:47,520 --> 04:16:51,080
Speaker 12: has worked since World War Two, basically, with the exception

5019
04:16:51,120 --> 04:16:55,200
Speaker 12: of the McCarthy era, is that these independent committees do

5020
04:16:55,360 --> 04:16:57,520
Speaker 12: the review of the grants and then the federal agencies

5021
04:16:57,720 --> 04:17:00,880
Speaker 12: submit the grants. Instead of that, the heads of federal

5022
04:17:00,880 --> 04:17:04,400
Speaker 12: agencies will appoint one person who will individually look through

5023
04:17:04,480 --> 04:17:08,920
Speaker 12: every single grant and approve or deny them. So this

5024
04:17:09,320 --> 04:17:11,720
Speaker 12: is the formalization of the DOGE process. This is the

5025
04:17:11,720 --> 04:17:17,040
Speaker 12: administration basically centralizing control of the entire scientific grant process.

5026
04:17:17,080 --> 04:17:19,360
Speaker 12: And this actually turns out, it turns out is for

5027
04:17:19,440 --> 04:17:21,960
Speaker 12: all grants, which we'll get to in a second. But

5028
04:17:22,000 --> 04:17:25,960
Speaker 12: what this means is that instead of again like scientific

5029
04:17:25,960 --> 04:17:29,080
Speaker 12: peer review being the thing that decides what science gets funding,

5030
04:17:29,480 --> 04:17:34,760
Speaker 12: it's now political appointees, and specifically Trump administration political appointees.

5031
04:17:34,840 --> 04:17:37,360
Speaker 12: There are a whole in this ruling. There are a

5032
04:17:37,400 --> 04:17:40,680
Speaker 12: whole bunch of absolutely or not other's really the pros change.

5033
04:17:41,480 --> 04:17:45,160
Speaker 12: There is just a bunch of just absolutely unhinged creeds

5034
04:17:45,360 --> 04:17:50,520
Speaker 12: about the US anti AIDS programs turning into woke left

5035
04:17:52,240 --> 04:17:57,880
Speaker 12: mobs in Africa that support like gender politics and stuff.

5036
04:17:58,160 --> 04:18:01,760
Speaker 12: I've found very incoherent explaining that, I swear to God,

5037
04:18:01,800 --> 04:18:04,200
Speaker 12: I am more coherent than actually reading out the quote.

5038
04:18:04,240 --> 04:18:09,120
Speaker 12: It's just it's completely unhinged, like weird right wing conspiracy

5039
04:18:09,120 --> 04:18:10,840
Speaker 12: stuff for like half of it, and half of it

5040
04:18:10,880 --> 04:18:13,520
Speaker 12: is like extremely technical budget change stuff.

5041
04:18:13,800 --> 04:18:15,400
Speaker 6: I know that in the Doge stuff this has been

5042
04:18:15,400 --> 04:18:18,120
Speaker 6: talking about like, you know, sexual health clinics in like

5043
04:18:18,160 --> 04:18:20,520
Speaker 6: a country in Africa that's supported by the US government.

5044
04:18:20,640 --> 04:18:23,800
Speaker 12: Right, yeah, yeah, they're they're they're pulling all these examples

5045
04:18:23,800 --> 04:18:26,040
Speaker 12: and then just like screaming stuff about how they're like

5046
04:18:26,080 --> 04:18:30,760
Speaker 12: abortion centers and you know, like doing like genital mutilation

5047
04:18:30,920 --> 04:18:34,040
Speaker 12: or whatever. There's been some good reporting on this by

5048
04:18:34,200 --> 04:18:37,520
Speaker 12: Elizabeth Janexi, who used to do like program reviews for

5049
04:18:38,000 --> 04:18:41,680
Speaker 12: the NIH before a lot of things, including this administration,

5050
04:18:41,760 --> 04:18:48,400
Speaker 12: took over. This is effectively the centralization of all of

5051
04:18:48,400 --> 04:18:50,840
Speaker 12: the grants given up by the US government. Right, And

5052
04:18:51,680 --> 04:18:52,960
Speaker 12: if you remember, if we think back to like the

5053
04:18:53,000 --> 04:18:56,200
Speaker 12: early days of DOGE, right, well you'd find these giant

5054
04:18:56,240 --> 04:18:58,200
Speaker 12: lists of grant that they've gone through and just cut

5055
04:18:59,000 --> 04:19:01,280
Speaker 12: and they had apps no legal authority to do that,

5056
04:19:01,320 --> 04:19:05,680
Speaker 12: they just did it. This is the formalization of that process.

5057
04:19:05,840 --> 04:19:06,120
Speaker 10: Right.

5058
04:19:06,200 --> 04:19:09,280
Speaker 12: This is setting up to bureaucratic apparatus to allow just

5059
04:19:09,760 --> 04:19:13,000
Speaker 12: one random groper they've like hired and stashed off at

5060
04:19:13,000 --> 04:19:16,200
Speaker 12: a room and like benih or something, to just go

5061
04:19:16,320 --> 04:19:18,720
Speaker 12: through and cut whatever grants they want. They also have

5062
04:19:18,760 --> 04:19:22,200
Speaker 12: the power to terminate grants that have already been given

5063
04:19:22,200 --> 04:19:26,600
Speaker 12: out at will. There's other even weirder things where they're

5064
04:19:26,640 --> 04:19:30,120
Speaker 12: also very paranoid about, like scientific collaboration with other countries,

5065
04:19:30,160 --> 04:19:32,320
Speaker 12: which is just the basis of how all science is done.

5066
04:19:32,960 --> 04:19:37,160
Speaker 12: There's like restricted countries effectively where you can't collaborate with

5067
04:19:37,160 --> 04:19:41,640
Speaker 12: scientists from those countries, which even by US standards, is

5068
04:19:42,480 --> 04:19:48,480
Speaker 12: like not how things work. That's like messed up by

5069
04:19:48,480 --> 04:19:53,280
Speaker 12: the standards of like American foreign policy. And then also

5070
04:19:53,560 --> 04:19:57,240
Speaker 12: if you are doing any collaboration with any scientists from

5071
04:19:57,240 --> 04:20:00,800
Speaker 12: another country and there's money involved in it, that grant

5072
04:20:00,800 --> 04:20:03,760
Speaker 12: has to be individually approved by like this person that

5073
04:20:03,760 --> 04:20:08,040
Speaker 12: they've set up. So this makes scientific collaboration effectively impossible,

5074
04:20:08,360 --> 04:20:10,560
Speaker 12: right because most of those things aren't going to happen,

5075
04:20:10,600 --> 04:20:13,400
Speaker 12: because this is going to reproduce the sort of doge

5076
04:20:13,400 --> 04:20:16,000
Speaker 12: bottle decks that we saw where suddenly all these grants

5077
04:20:16,040 --> 04:20:18,560
Speaker 12: are disappearing, even ones that would eventually get approved. The

5078
04:20:18,560 --> 04:20:21,280
Speaker 12: people who were supposed to be getting them are completely

5079
04:20:21,280 --> 04:20:24,840
Speaker 12: screwed because their reliance on that grant coming in order

5080
04:20:24,840 --> 04:20:30,440
Speaker 12: to do their research, and the pivot in control of

5081
04:20:30,960 --> 04:20:33,560
Speaker 12: how these grants are being given out from people who

5082
04:20:33,600 --> 04:20:37,080
Speaker 12: are at the very least scientists to you know, just

5083
04:20:37,320 --> 04:20:40,040
Speaker 12: the people who are currently running the NIH who are

5084
04:20:40,640 --> 04:20:43,440
Speaker 12: like RFK Junior, Right, it's those kind of people who

5085
04:20:43,480 --> 04:20:46,160
Speaker 12: are going to be running these kinds of grants, and

5086
04:20:46,720 --> 04:20:50,800
Speaker 12: they are going to be able to do damage to

5087
04:20:51,040 --> 04:20:58,000
Speaker 12: this that is quite frankly incalculable. This is the destruction

5088
04:20:58,120 --> 04:21:03,080
Speaker 12: of the entire system of American science, like almost like vast,

5089
04:21:03,280 --> 04:21:05,560
Speaker 12: vast percentages of all the science in the US is

5090
04:21:05,600 --> 04:21:08,400
Speaker 12: done off of government grants. Either it's either it's done

5091
04:21:08,560 --> 04:21:12,760
Speaker 12: by the NIH or like by by government institutions or

5092
04:21:13,160 --> 04:21:16,360
Speaker 12: not entirely all, but a huge portion of science that's

5093
04:21:16,360 --> 04:21:19,360
Speaker 12: done at research universities, which is again how like most

5094
04:21:19,400 --> 04:21:23,880
Speaker 12: science happens, is also supported by these grants. And if

5095
04:21:23,920 --> 04:21:26,440
Speaker 12: we're in this situation now where all of these grants

5096
04:21:27,400 --> 04:21:30,680
Speaker 12: are again going through one person who is like solely

5097
04:21:30,720 --> 04:21:33,000
Speaker 12: motivated by political factors as to whether Arthur going to

5098
04:21:33,000 --> 04:21:34,760
Speaker 12: approved this, which is what the system Maaey're attempting is

5099
04:21:34,760 --> 04:21:38,920
Speaker 12: set up. This is the death of American science. And

5100
04:21:38,960 --> 04:21:41,200
Speaker 12: it's worse than that too, because and this is the

5101
04:21:41,240 --> 04:21:43,160
Speaker 12: thing where I'm going to do a full episode about

5102
04:21:43,160 --> 04:21:45,680
Speaker 12: this next week because there are a lot more implications.

5103
04:21:45,680 --> 04:21:49,120
Speaker 12: But the section of rules that's being changed here by

5104
04:21:49,440 --> 04:21:51,800
Speaker 12: the Office of Management and Budget, this is not the

5105
04:21:51,880 --> 04:21:55,000
Speaker 12: session for the grant allocation for science, right, this is

5106
04:21:55,040 --> 04:21:57,680
Speaker 12: the section for all grants given out by the US

5107
04:21:57,720 --> 04:22:03,800
Speaker 12: by the US government. So for example, medicaid, Yeah, so

5108
04:22:03,840 --> 04:22:06,560
Speaker 12: all of that is now subject to this stuff, right,

5109
04:22:06,640 --> 04:22:10,240
Speaker 12: like disaster aid, you know, like any money the government

5110
04:22:10,320 --> 04:22:13,000
Speaker 12: is giving out right, that this is going through the

5111
04:22:13,000 --> 04:22:18,000
Speaker 12: grant system is now going through this process. Yeah, there's

5112
04:22:18,360 --> 04:22:23,240
Speaker 12: I think public comment on this ends July seventh, So

5113
04:22:23,440 --> 04:22:25,280
Speaker 12: I guess if you want to scream at them, that's

5114
04:22:25,320 --> 04:22:29,240
Speaker 12: technically possible. It's really not clear if democratic politicians are

5115
04:22:29,280 --> 04:22:32,800
Speaker 12: going to actually try to substantively do something to stop this,

5116
04:22:33,280 --> 04:22:37,720
Speaker 12: which there's no direct legal mechanism for them to stop this.

5117
04:22:38,040 --> 04:22:42,320
Speaker 12: They could do another government shutdown or something. But yeah,

5118
04:22:42,680 --> 04:22:44,480
Speaker 12: this is just sort of the state of things, which

5119
04:22:44,520 --> 04:22:45,920
Speaker 12: is that a lot and a lot of this stuff

5120
04:22:45,920 --> 04:22:48,640
Speaker 12: has already been happening. It's worth saying, right, like a

5121
04:22:48,640 --> 04:22:53,000
Speaker 12: lot of these funding for everything from like vaccine programs

5122
04:22:53,040 --> 04:22:56,080
Speaker 12: to like the very small amount of help research that

5123
04:22:56,160 --> 04:22:58,240
Speaker 12: was going in the trans healthcare or like Queer healthcare

5124
04:22:58,280 --> 04:23:02,320
Speaker 12: in general, Like those grants are as gone. And you know,

5125
04:23:02,400 --> 04:23:04,640
Speaker 12: we've already seen a whole bunch of chaos from the

5126
04:23:04,680 --> 04:23:06,800
Speaker 12: interruption of the grant system on the sort of university

5127
04:23:06,840 --> 04:23:09,560
Speaker 12: level for scientists. But this is all just going to

5128
04:23:09,600 --> 04:23:13,280
Speaker 12: get significantly worse as this rule change rolls out.

5129
04:23:13,680 --> 04:23:14,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

5130
04:23:14,600 --> 04:23:16,720
Speaker 12: Yeah, So on that happy note.

5131
04:23:17,800 --> 04:23:21,920
Speaker 3: Last week, the former chief patrol agent for the El

5132
04:23:22,000 --> 04:23:28,120
Speaker 3: Centro sector and also Commander of Voy Patrols Operation at Large,

5133
04:23:28,320 --> 04:23:33,040
Speaker 3: Gregory Bovino took to X the Everything app to announce

5134
04:23:33,080 --> 04:23:35,640
Speaker 3: that he was on his way to Delaney Hall. Wasn't

5135
04:23:35,680 --> 04:23:39,240
Speaker 3: exactly clear why, because Pavino is no longer a serving

5136
04:23:39,640 --> 04:23:42,400
Speaker 3: law enforcement officer. In fact, he was en route to

5137
04:23:42,440 --> 04:23:46,600
Speaker 3: a remigration summit in Portugal. That the conference, Baveno joined

5138
04:23:46,640 --> 04:23:51,880
Speaker 3: politicians from Fox and Afteray they spoke sort of behind

5139
04:23:51,920 --> 04:23:54,600
Speaker 3: closed doors. Journalists who wanted to cover the event had

5140
04:23:54,600 --> 04:23:56,520
Speaker 3: to stay in a car park outside, where they were

5141
04:23:56,520 --> 04:23:59,720
Speaker 3: harassed by a drone. He's not listed on the website,

5142
04:23:59,760 --> 04:24:02,120
Speaker 3: but it's like a sort of mystery speaker, and I'm

5143
04:24:02,120 --> 04:24:05,960
Speaker 3: guessing that that that was him, right, remigration people, I'm familiar.

5144
04:24:05,960 --> 04:24:07,480
Speaker 3: We're going to do a whole episode on this next week.

5145
04:24:07,480 --> 04:24:09,840
Speaker 3: But the website for the conference sets it out as

5146
04:24:09,880 --> 04:24:13,480
Speaker 3: a set of fiscal, cultural, economic, social, political, and logistical

5147
04:24:13,480 --> 04:24:17,320
Speaker 3: policies whose objective is to prevent population and replacement through

5148
04:24:17,360 --> 04:24:22,600
Speaker 3: the reversal of migratory flows. It is very explicitly about undocumented, documented,

5149
04:24:22,680 --> 04:24:26,080
Speaker 3: and naturalized people. It's not about following the law. It

5150
04:24:26,160 --> 04:24:29,440
Speaker 3: is explicitly racial. It's about race, nicity, religion, and the

5151
04:24:29,520 --> 04:24:33,560
Speaker 3: idea of national purity and cleansing the nation of people

5152
04:24:33,600 --> 04:24:36,120
Speaker 3: who it considers not to be pure. If you think

5153
04:24:36,160 --> 04:24:38,920
Speaker 3: this is something that has maybe happened before in European history,

5154
04:24:39,080 --> 04:24:41,720
Speaker 3: you would not be alone. Greg Bavino took the chance

5155
04:24:41,800 --> 04:24:45,800
Speaker 3: to compare himself to rommel in one interview. Free also

5156
04:24:45,840 --> 04:24:50,360
Speaker 3: compared himself to T Lawrence and pattern, which is a

5157
04:24:50,360 --> 04:24:56,680
Speaker 3: fairly remarkable set of yes, yeah, right, without without skipping

5158
04:24:56,720 --> 04:24:59,280
Speaker 3: a bee. Maybe he's one of those guys who's like

5159
04:24:59,320 --> 04:25:04,080
Speaker 3: a clean ver guy. He also sort of it was interesting,

5160
04:25:04,200 --> 04:25:05,760
Speaker 3: Like I said, I'm going to break this down more

5161
04:25:05,920 --> 04:25:07,920
Speaker 3: next week. I think what was more interesting than like

5162
04:25:07,960 --> 04:25:11,120
Speaker 3: Greg Bavino talks to Nazis about Nazi shit, which that

5163
04:25:11,200 --> 04:25:15,760
Speaker 3: come on, what does one expect is the way he

5164
04:25:15,920 --> 04:25:18,600
Speaker 3: talked about stuff in terms of like the role he

5165
04:25:18,760 --> 04:25:22,160
Speaker 3: sees Border Patrol having. He referred to them. He said

5166
04:25:22,160 --> 04:25:24,440
Speaker 3: they are often referred to as a federal law enforcement

5167
04:25:24,520 --> 04:25:27,320
Speaker 3: marine corps. The Border Patrol can operate anywhere in the

5168
04:25:27,360 --> 04:25:31,600
Speaker 3: United States and associated territories and simultaneously fulfill all enforcement missions.

5169
04:25:31,920 --> 04:25:34,520
Speaker 3: It goes on. He goes on to talk about them.

5170
04:25:34,600 --> 04:25:37,600
Speaker 3: He says that they are the only organization capable of

5171
04:25:37,680 --> 04:25:39,640
Speaker 3: planning and executing this type of operation.

5172
04:25:40,280 --> 04:25:41,080
Speaker 2: He's not wrong.

5173
04:25:41,480 --> 04:25:43,960
Speaker 3: They are the only agency that could do something like

5174
04:25:44,400 --> 04:25:47,960
Speaker 3: a mass deportation campaign like we're seeing. But like this,

5175
04:25:47,960 --> 04:25:51,840
Speaker 3: this Marine Corps, of the Internal Marine Corps is interesting, right,

5176
04:25:51,880 --> 04:25:53,480
Speaker 3: that is how they have been used, especially by the

5177
04:25:53,520 --> 04:25:56,120
Speaker 3: Trump administration. Right, think of Portland in twenty twenty, right,

5178
04:25:56,200 --> 04:25:59,760
Speaker 3: Like these are the government's goons. Like when they need

5179
04:25:59,760 --> 04:26:01,880
Speaker 3: a hit squad to fuck people up, this is who

5180
04:26:01,920 --> 04:26:05,560
Speaker 3: they go to. Yeah, and that identity is something that

5181
04:26:05,680 --> 04:26:09,560
Speaker 3: Baveno out have clearly embraced. Right, But Brevna was in Bortach.

5182
04:26:09,760 --> 04:26:12,400
Speaker 3: Not not extremely recently, but he has points in his

5183
04:26:12,440 --> 04:26:15,440
Speaker 3: career been in Bortech. He also kind of tried to

5184
04:26:16,200 --> 04:26:18,840
Speaker 3: set distance between BP and ICE, which is interesting. He

5185
04:26:19,160 --> 04:26:21,480
Speaker 3: called them. He said, the New York fiasco last night

5186
04:26:21,480 --> 04:26:24,600
Speaker 3: in New Jersey illustrates what happens when untrained investigators are

5187
04:26:24,600 --> 04:26:27,480
Speaker 3: sent to handle a situation that is the responsibility of

5188
04:26:27,560 --> 04:26:33,440
Speaker 3: uniform specialists. He's there suggesting that the ICE employees lacked

5189
04:26:33,520 --> 04:26:36,760
Speaker 3: the necessary training to do what I guess they would

5190
04:26:36,760 --> 04:26:38,280
Speaker 3: call crowd control.

5191
04:26:38,520 --> 04:26:44,040
Speaker 12: Which which is really funny because that's also the Democrats line.

5192
04:26:44,560 --> 04:26:47,520
Speaker 6: It's like, oh, well enough, Yeah.

5193
04:26:47,640 --> 04:26:49,880
Speaker 3: Well his line is therefore like turn it over to

5194
04:26:49,920 --> 04:26:51,400
Speaker 3: the people who are well trained enough so we can

5195
04:26:51,440 --> 04:26:53,200
Speaker 3: suck them up, which I guess is also kind of

5196
04:26:53,200 --> 04:26:56,080
Speaker 3: what the Democrats are. It's not a million miles part.

5197
04:26:57,920 --> 04:27:01,120
Speaker 3: Butveno has also been doing some right wing podcast want

5198
04:27:01,160 --> 04:27:04,880
Speaker 3: on the border Hawk podcast, where he appeared seemingly from

5199
04:27:04,920 --> 04:27:07,800
Speaker 3: his office behind him, he had a shadow box. Does

5200
04:27:07,800 --> 04:27:09,840
Speaker 3: anyone want to hazard a guess what was in the

5201
04:27:09,840 --> 04:27:14,960
Speaker 3: shadow box? Military memorabilia of a certain kind. Yeah? Is

5202
04:27:15,000 --> 04:27:18,360
Speaker 3: it German Nazi cross? No, it is. It is contemporary,

5203
04:27:19,120 --> 04:27:21,160
Speaker 3: it pertains to his career. That's good.

5204
04:27:21,720 --> 04:27:23,720
Speaker 2: Is it his one of his challenge coins that he

5205
04:27:23,800 --> 04:27:26,080
Speaker 2: got from fucking Chicago or wherever.

5206
04:27:26,560 --> 04:27:29,040
Speaker 3: They're probably smart enough not to put their challenge coins

5207
04:27:29,080 --> 04:27:30,720
Speaker 3: on public display anywhere.

5208
04:27:30,800 --> 04:27:31,000
Speaker 19: Yeah.

5209
04:27:31,120 --> 04:27:33,440
Speaker 3: No, it's a bunch of left lisal grenades. Ah okay,

5210
04:27:33,440 --> 04:27:37,200
Speaker 3: of course, like the thing with which I guess he

5211
04:27:37,200 --> 04:27:39,120
Speaker 3: wishes to be associated.

5212
04:27:38,640 --> 04:27:40,120
Speaker 2: I have a lot of those in my house too,

5213
04:27:40,640 --> 04:27:41,400
Speaker 2: he used once.

5214
04:27:42,680 --> 04:27:45,200
Speaker 3: It's just like taking pride in being the guy who

5215
04:27:45,240 --> 04:27:47,680
Speaker 3: stamped down harder on the First Amendment than anyone has

5216
04:27:47,680 --> 04:27:48,520
Speaker 3: in recent history.

5217
04:27:48,680 --> 04:27:48,960
Speaker 6: Cool.

5218
04:27:49,760 --> 04:27:54,480
Speaker 3: He's also been very critical of current DHS leadership, right

5219
04:27:54,880 --> 04:27:58,160
Speaker 3: after Buffino and Nome took to the national media to

5220
04:27:58,280 --> 04:28:01,120
Speaker 3: lie about Alex pretty in the hours to Alex Pretti Guide,

5221
04:28:01,120 --> 04:28:04,520
Speaker 3: they both became too toxic even for this administration, and

5222
04:28:04,520 --> 04:28:06,240
Speaker 3: he clearly has some hard feelings about this.

5223
04:28:06,640 --> 04:28:09,680
Speaker 14: He mentioned the twenty million figure. My figures one hundred million.

5224
04:28:09,960 --> 04:28:13,000
Speaker 14: His is twenty million. Now, let's take a look at

5225
04:28:13,000 --> 04:28:17,800
Speaker 14: that number. Dan, So we've got, by Tom Holman's estimate,

5226
04:28:17,840 --> 04:28:21,000
Speaker 14: twenty million illegal aliens. If that's the case, then he's

5227
04:28:21,160 --> 04:28:25,840
Speaker 14: already arrested one tenth of all illegal aliens present in

5228
04:28:25,880 --> 04:28:29,280
Speaker 14: the United States. Do you see that with your eyes

5229
04:28:29,400 --> 04:28:31,680
Speaker 14: on the streets? Do I see that with my eyes

5230
04:28:32,120 --> 04:28:34,520
Speaker 14: on the streets? If it's really going that good? A

5231
04:28:34,640 --> 04:28:38,800
Speaker 14: tenth of all illegal aliens and they're all legal aliens,

5232
04:28:38,960 --> 04:28:42,240
Speaker 14: they're not immigrants or anything else, illegal aliens A tenth.

5233
04:28:42,320 --> 04:28:45,480
Speaker 14: If there were a tenth already deported, the rest would

5234
04:28:45,480 --> 04:28:49,200
Speaker 14: be buttoned up tighter than you can imagine. Those lines

5235
04:28:49,320 --> 04:28:51,840
Speaker 14: southbound for self deportation would be out the door.

5236
04:28:52,280 --> 04:28:53,280
Speaker 19: That's not happening.

5237
04:28:53,720 --> 04:28:54,920
Speaker 6: This is really interesting.

5238
04:28:55,120 --> 04:28:58,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll go into this specific episode. The way he

5239
04:28:58,480 --> 04:29:02,640
Speaker 3: arrives at that number is through the number of traffic

5240
04:29:02,680 --> 04:29:06,880
Speaker 3: delays in Charlotte, North Carolina, during the border patrol operation there.

5241
04:29:06,920 --> 04:29:10,640
Speaker 3: What this is the evidence he cites? Yeah, wow, Okay,

5242
04:29:11,000 --> 04:29:13,640
Speaker 3: it's fascinating. Like he talks about how he thinks a

5243
04:29:13,720 --> 04:29:16,160
Speaker 3: number is higher because of his time at border patrol rate.

5244
04:29:16,720 --> 04:29:19,840
Speaker 6: He may think there is like one hundred million illegal immigrants.

5245
04:29:19,880 --> 04:29:22,160
Speaker 3: So he believes this in his yeah, like deep down

5246
04:29:22,360 --> 04:29:25,920
Speaker 3: in Yeah, Like he's interesting. Yeah, this is a one hundred

5247
04:29:26,000 --> 04:29:29,520
Speaker 3: what he believes, and he wants to deport that many people.

5248
04:29:29,640 --> 04:29:31,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know if it's that he believes there's

5249
04:29:31,360 --> 04:29:33,600
Speaker 2: that many people who are illegal in the way, Yeah,

5250
04:29:33,720 --> 04:29:38,240
Speaker 2: he doesn't differentiate or he's just considering everyone who is

5251
04:29:38,280 --> 04:29:39,800
Speaker 2: not you know, white here.

5252
04:29:39,960 --> 04:29:43,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I mean he he did differentiate in this video, well,

5253
04:29:43,440 --> 04:29:44,280
Speaker 6: which is interesting.

5254
04:29:44,360 --> 04:29:47,440
Speaker 2: He did. No, no, no, that's not what that meant.

5255
04:29:47,440 --> 04:29:50,840
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, he was making the case that anyone

5256
04:29:50,960 --> 04:29:54,520
Speaker 2: border patrol goes after as an illegal alien I think, I.

5257
04:29:54,480 --> 04:29:56,040
Speaker 6: Mean, but that's not what he said.

5258
04:29:56,320 --> 04:29:58,000
Speaker 2: Well, I mean what he said was the term that

5259
04:29:58,080 --> 04:30:00,280
Speaker 2: you should use for these people is illegal alien. It's

5260
04:30:00,280 --> 04:30:02,800
Speaker 2: not migrants or something like. He does not like that.

5261
04:30:02,880 --> 04:30:04,960
Speaker 2: A lot of folks think it's wrong to refer to

5262
04:30:05,000 --> 04:30:07,480
Speaker 2: a human being as illegal. That's specifically what he's saying,

5263
04:30:07,520 --> 04:30:10,520
Speaker 2: Like he's not making a deeper point than that, but

5264
04:30:10,640 --> 04:30:12,920
Speaker 2: I do think his belief is that that one hundred

5265
04:30:13,000 --> 04:30:16,440
Speaker 2: million number includes a lot of people who were for example,

5266
04:30:16,560 --> 04:30:20,160
Speaker 2: naturalized or who were made citizens through like juice solely,

5267
04:30:20,280 --> 04:30:22,640
Speaker 2: which we've seen, like he thinks should go away, and

5268
04:30:22,680 --> 04:30:23,600
Speaker 2: so does the administration.

5269
04:30:23,920 --> 04:30:27,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, or indeed like people on thesis right, yes, well,

5270
04:30:27,560 --> 04:30:27,880
Speaker 3: but I.

5271
04:30:27,840 --> 04:30:29,440
Speaker 12: Mean more like like if you're if you want to

5272
04:30:29,440 --> 04:30:32,160
Speaker 12: get you one hundred million, you're you're deporting people who

5273
04:30:32,160 --> 04:30:34,520
Speaker 12: are just non white, like you can't there aren't a

5274
04:30:34,640 --> 04:30:36,600
Speaker 12: hundred million like natural like.

5275
04:30:37,080 --> 04:30:39,600
Speaker 6: But it's it sounds like he just believes there is

5276
04:30:39,640 --> 04:30:43,280
Speaker 6: like way more undocumented immigrants in the United States than

5277
04:30:43,280 --> 04:30:46,040
Speaker 6: what there actually is, like that is in this short clip,

5278
04:30:46,080 --> 04:30:47,720
Speaker 6: but that is what he's like referring to.

5279
04:30:47,800 --> 04:30:49,960
Speaker 2: In part because he believes a lot of people who

5280
04:30:50,240 --> 04:30:54,240
Speaker 2: everyone else would consider legally immigrating have not like that

5281
04:30:54,400 --> 04:30:56,440
Speaker 2: is part of why he's saying. And now there's also

5282
04:30:56,480 --> 04:30:58,560
Speaker 2: a belief that like the number that the government's lying

5283
04:30:58,560 --> 04:30:59,840
Speaker 2: to you about how many of them there are, the

5284
04:31:00,160 --> 04:31:02,080
Speaker 2: vastly more. But part of it is he does not

5285
04:31:02,160 --> 04:31:05,000
Speaker 2: believe a lot of the ways that people become citizens

5286
04:31:05,120 --> 04:31:08,040
Speaker 2: who are not white are legitimate, Like that is an

5287
04:31:08,080 --> 04:31:09,200
Speaker 2: aspect of what he's saying.

5288
04:31:09,720 --> 04:31:12,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, he spoke about this at length in his interview. Right,

5289
04:31:12,640 --> 04:31:16,040
Speaker 3: he was saying how many people he'd seen. He talks

5290
04:31:16,040 --> 04:31:19,360
Speaker 3: about whole villages in Mexico coming across the border. He

5291
04:31:19,400 --> 04:31:23,480
Speaker 3: loves It is fairly familiar rhetoric, right, I can. I'm

5292
04:31:23,520 --> 04:31:26,240
Speaker 3: just scrotting down here if I can find his one hundred

5293
04:31:26,360 --> 04:31:30,440
Speaker 3: million claim. One hundred million pure researchers figure hasn't changed

5294
04:31:30,440 --> 04:31:33,880
Speaker 3: since the nineteen seventies, he said. He says thirty years ago,

5295
04:31:33,880 --> 04:31:37,200
Speaker 3: illegal immigrants were absent from large portions of American territory.

5296
04:31:37,240 --> 04:31:40,200
Speaker 3: I don't know where he's getting that information. He said.

5297
04:31:40,280 --> 04:31:43,720
Speaker 3: He began seriously examining these numbers in two thousand and eight.

5298
04:31:44,760 --> 04:31:48,040
Speaker 3: He then says that around two thousand and six he

5299
04:31:48,240 --> 04:31:52,120
Speaker 3: found some information from bear Stearns. That's a bank. They're

5300
04:31:52,160 --> 04:31:54,600
Speaker 3: like an investment bank. I think. He claims that drove

5301
04:31:54,640 --> 04:31:57,960
Speaker 3: his number. He saw an uninterrupted flow of illegal immigrants

5302
04:31:58,000 --> 04:32:01,880
Speaker 3: across the border without any internalation capable of producing mass

5303
04:32:01,880 --> 04:32:04,520
Speaker 3: expulsions from two thousand and six to twenty twenty six,

5304
04:32:04,920 --> 04:32:08,360
Speaker 3: Our borders were nothing but speed bunks. Illegals and smugglers

5305
04:32:08,400 --> 04:32:10,480
Speaker 3: knew that once across the border, they were virtually saved

5306
04:32:10,480 --> 04:32:14,560
Speaker 3: from any consequences. Of course, that does include Trump's first term.

5307
04:32:14,920 --> 04:32:18,240
Speaker 3: But then he goes on to cite these bizarre statistics

5308
04:32:18,280 --> 04:32:20,760
Speaker 3: like I'll just I'll give you the Charlotte traffic example.

5309
04:32:21,280 --> 04:32:23,720
Speaker 3: One of the indicators away looking at is commuting times.

5310
04:32:23,840 --> 04:32:26,440
Speaker 3: For these times to be considered quote unquote good, between

5311
04:32:26,440 --> 04:32:28,560
Speaker 3: fifteen and twenty percent of commuters must be taken off

5312
04:32:28,560 --> 04:32:30,920
Speaker 3: the road. In Charlotte, there a one hundred and fifty

5313
04:32:30,920 --> 04:32:34,160
Speaker 3: three thousand commuters per day. Approximately as soon as we

5314
04:32:34,200 --> 04:32:37,000
Speaker 3: launched operations, Charlotte's web travel times did not move into

5315
04:32:37,000 --> 04:32:40,400
Speaker 3: the good category. They moved into the excellent category. Estimates

5316
04:32:40,400 --> 04:32:42,640
Speaker 3: indicated that thirty percent or more of commuters were no

5317
04:32:42,720 --> 04:32:45,760
Speaker 3: longer traveling. This means that at least thirty percent of

5318
04:32:45,800 --> 04:32:49,840
Speaker 3: them were most likely legal immigrants. That is a logical yeah,

5319
04:32:50,360 --> 04:32:52,280
Speaker 3: across the grand canyon of logic.

5320
04:32:52,560 --> 04:32:55,400
Speaker 2: Jesus ChRI Christ, I'd read that that's how he's calculator,

5321
04:32:55,520 --> 04:32:59,000
Speaker 2: which you know, cuts out a lot of obvious reasons

5322
04:32:59,000 --> 04:33:01,920
Speaker 2: people might not drive during this who are legal, like

5323
04:33:01,960 --> 04:33:07,040
Speaker 2: the fact that ICE has undeniably deported citizens and taken

5324
04:33:07,040 --> 04:33:09,480
Speaker 2: people into custody for long periods of time it were citizens,

5325
04:33:09,520 --> 04:33:10,120
Speaker 2: you know, Yeah.

5326
04:33:09,919 --> 04:33:12,360
Speaker 3: That they've pulled random brown people out of cause that

5327
04:33:12,400 --> 04:33:16,320
Speaker 3: they've shot and killed people, Like yes, yeah, this happened

5328
04:33:16,360 --> 04:33:18,960
Speaker 3: also in late November of twenty twenty five, a time

5329
04:33:19,000 --> 04:33:21,600
Speaker 3: where people travel, a time when people get sick. Yeah,

5330
04:33:21,680 --> 04:33:25,360
Speaker 3: commutes generally go down in late November. Commuters fluctuate.

5331
04:33:25,480 --> 04:33:25,880
Speaker 6: Yeah like that.

5332
04:33:26,000 --> 04:33:27,440
Speaker 12: Yeah, it's just gibberish.

5333
04:33:27,520 --> 04:33:30,280
Speaker 2: It's an insane way to draw the conclusion he's drawn.

5334
04:33:30,520 --> 04:33:31,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's it's bunkers.

5335
04:33:32,120 --> 04:33:34,040
Speaker 12: It's also it's also this thing where it's like in

5336
04:33:34,120 --> 04:33:36,640
Speaker 12: order to like think this is what's going on, Like

5337
04:33:36,640 --> 04:33:38,600
Speaker 12: one of the premises of this is like, oh, it's

5338
04:33:38,600 --> 04:33:40,840
Speaker 12: like the illegal aliens that are like making every single

5339
04:33:40,919 --> 04:33:43,840
Speaker 12: problem bad, Like you see this with yeah, like the

5340
04:33:43,880 --> 04:33:45,440
Speaker 12: people who support this on lines who are like, oh,

5341
04:33:45,480 --> 04:33:47,720
Speaker 12: the housing crisis would end if we just deported everyone,

5342
04:33:47,759 --> 04:33:50,680
Speaker 12: and it's like yeah, yeah, yeah, obviously no, But like

5343
04:33:50,800 --> 04:33:53,160
Speaker 12: they're coming at it from the motivated reasoning of I

5344
04:33:53,200 --> 04:33:54,840
Speaker 12: want to do an ethnic cleansing, and then they're sort

5345
04:33:54,840 --> 04:33:56,800
Speaker 12: of post hawk creating justifications for it.

5346
04:33:56,919 --> 04:33:59,560
Speaker 3: This is what fascism does, right. It blames yeah yeah,

5347
04:33:59,560 --> 04:34:02,160
Speaker 3: all the pro blooms of the chosen group on the scapegroat.

5348
04:34:01,759 --> 04:34:03,039
Speaker 6: Claims these economic problems.

5349
04:34:03,120 --> 04:34:07,200
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yes, like they've seen in Quannata fascism and

5350
04:34:07,240 --> 04:34:09,240
Speaker 3: it's very core. Is this, This the idea of a

5351
04:34:09,440 --> 04:34:11,879
Speaker 3: chrosen group and a scapegoat group, and escapegoat group are

5352
04:34:11,880 --> 04:34:14,440
Speaker 3: responsible for the decline of the chosen group and if

5353
04:34:14,480 --> 04:34:16,480
Speaker 3: they can be removed, the chosen group will return to

5354
04:34:16,520 --> 04:34:20,600
Speaker 3: its former glory. Like that is yeah, fascism in five minutes,

5355
04:34:21,080 --> 04:34:25,640
Speaker 3: and that's what we're seeing, right, unsurprisingly given that he's

5356
04:34:25,640 --> 04:34:28,880
Speaker 3: at a conference with straight up Nazis. But I think

5357
04:34:28,960 --> 04:34:33,320
Speaker 3: this one hundred million number is interesting, and like what's

5358
04:34:33,400 --> 04:34:35,960
Speaker 3: interesting is him talking in a way that he didn't

5359
04:34:36,000 --> 04:34:39,400
Speaker 3: talk to the press when he was in charge of

5360
04:34:39,400 --> 04:34:42,560
Speaker 3: Border Patrol, but he probably did, believe, but Vino is

5361
04:34:42,600 --> 04:34:46,000
Speaker 3: popular among Border Patrol agents, right. There are a number

5362
04:34:46,040 --> 04:34:48,280
Speaker 3: of them who feel that he was the leader that

5363
04:34:48,320 --> 04:34:51,600
Speaker 3: they needed. He showed up in the field, right, He

5364
04:34:52,040 --> 04:34:54,400
Speaker 3: had the support of agents because he was there with them,

5365
04:34:54,440 --> 04:34:57,759
Speaker 3: and like him believing this tells us a lot about

5366
04:34:57,759 --> 04:35:00,480
Speaker 3: the agency, And I think that's something I want to

5367
04:35:00,600 --> 04:35:05,360
Speaker 3: dive deeper into next week. Okay, and email us with

5368
04:35:05,400 --> 04:35:09,000
Speaker 3: your news tips cool Zone Tips at proton dot me.

5369
04:35:09,440 --> 04:35:11,079
Speaker 12: Yeah, put a transcroll on your couch.

5370
04:35:11,600 --> 04:35:14,280
Speaker 2: Well, friends, that's going to be it from all of

5371
04:35:14,360 --> 04:35:18,160
Speaker 2: us at It could Happen Here ed this week. We'll

5372
04:35:18,200 --> 04:35:22,000
Speaker 2: be back with more episodes on the normal schedule that

5373
04:35:22,040 --> 04:35:24,600
Speaker 2: we put out episodes, and you should keep listening to

5374
04:35:24,680 --> 04:35:27,759
Speaker 2: them because we love you and we reported the news.

5375
04:35:27,880 --> 04:35:29,000
Speaker 1: We reported the news.

5376
04:35:30,280 --> 04:35:31,320
Speaker 9: We reported the news.

5377
04:35:36,440 --> 04:35:39,640
Speaker 2: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

5378
04:35:39,680 --> 04:35:41,560
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the Universe.

5379
04:35:42,320 --> 04:35:44,920
Speaker 22: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

5380
04:35:45,000 --> 04:35:48,079
Speaker 22: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

5381
04:35:48,160 --> 04:35:51,719
Speaker 22: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

5382
04:35:51,800 --> 04:35:55,360
Speaker 22: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

5383
04:35:55,400 --> 04:35:57,720
Speaker 22: now find sources for It Could Happen Here listened directly

5384
04:35:57,759 --> 04:35:58,879
Speaker 22: in episode descriptions.

5385
04:35:59,200 --> 04:36:02,320
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.