WEBVTT - Codes & Ciphers & Puzzles (with A.J. Jacobs) 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:04.480 I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I was a 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:07.840 CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:09.560 in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.680 And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.840 and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:17.799 our adversaries. 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:21.760 Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:23.560 theories large and small. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.320 Could they be true? Or are we being manipulated? 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:32.279 This is Mission implausible. Welcome back to Mission Implausible. Our 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:34.879 producer John Stern is here with us today and he's 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:36.680 going to introduce our guests. Yeah. 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:39.519 Sometimes Adam Davidson brings on one of his friends and 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:41.160 everyone's very impressed. 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:45.480 Everyone meaning Jerry. But today I. 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:47.440 Am bringing on someone who is going. 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:49.280 To blow all of Adam's guests away. 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:52.519 The actually is one of my favorite people, same as 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:55.680 AJ Jacobs. He's had a number of what I believe 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:59.480 John Stewart called method writing books. Do you remember Aj 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:02.320 would when you were writing The Year of Living Biblically 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:04.759 you met me for lunch on the Upper West Side. 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:06.880 I didn't know you were writing the book, and you 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:09.480 showed up in a white robe, long beard long hair 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:10.959 and barefoot. 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:13.080 I commit to the bit, that's right. 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:16.160 He also has a very fun and fascinating book called 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:19.640 The Puzzler and his podcast called The Puzzler, and his 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:23.160 most recent book is The Year of Living Constitutionally aj 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:27.160 as is. His want was living the Constitution in practical terms. 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:29.080 Aj When you got a cold, did you get like 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:30.319 leeches to be bled? 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:31.119 Is that what you did? 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:31.440 Well? 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:33.039 First of all, I just want to say thank you 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:35.640 for that lovely introduction and thanks for having me on 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:38.959 the show. I love the show. Yes, I did try 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:42.080 to order leeches and my wife put a cabash on it. 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:44.840 I also when I went to the dermatologist and had 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:48.120 to have a mole removed, I did request no no, 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:52.440 no anesthetic, no anesthetic, and she said for insurance reasons 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:55.600 she couldn't. So that's my excuse for why I never 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:59.520 did blood letting or the tobacco smoke enema, which was 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:04.160 a very cutting edge and popular medical procedure of the 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:06.960 day where they would literally blow smoke up your butt. 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:09.919 That's where the phrase comes from. Most likely did insurance 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:12.080 cover it, Ben, But what was the insurance situation they 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:16.000 had for the founders? Carey quid Ben Franklin is considered 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:19.040 to have started some insurance like thing, but I don't 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:20.040 know if that was covered. 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:25.919 So getting into the weird intersection between puzzles and codes 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:29.800 and espionage and conspiracy theories, I'm going to throw a 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:31.960 story at you. This has to do with espionage and 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:34.480 it has to do with codes. It's one of my favorites. 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:36.960 I've been looking for an excuse to use it. So 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:42.160 let's go back to the fifteen twenties. Elizabeth the Second 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:46.880 is she's Queen of England and she has a spymaster, 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.880 a guy by the name of John d Dee, and 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:55.880 he goes around Europe collecting intelligence for the Queen. Now 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:59.280 d is a puzzle master like you, and he's also 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:03.320 very big to numerology, and he's decided that he should 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:07.639 be represented by the number seven. It was his lucky number, 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:10.760 and when he would write to the Queen, it was 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:16.160 for her eyes only, so he would put zero zero, 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:19.519 one for each eye, and then he would actually put 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:21.720 in like a little eyeball, a little dot, and then 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:24.919 number seven so she would know it was for her 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:28.040 eyes only, and it was from number seven, So he 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:32.120 was the first seven and when she responded to him. 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:36.440 She didn't write out Queen Elizabeth Majesty Rex. She just 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:41.520 wrote M and so this is where from out of Cambridge, 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:44.080 this is where seven comes from it. 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.680 I love this story. First of all, why didn't I 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:52.120 interview you for my book? This is fantastic. So here's 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:56.040 another one. World War two saw some interesting overlaps between 0:03:56.040 --> 0:04:01.880 puzzles and spying. The Telegraph newspaper in England in nineteen 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:05.360 forty one, I believe, printed a very hard They love 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:11.040 in England. They love their super tricky wordplaye crosswords. They're 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:15.760 harder than in America. No offense to America. And they 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:18.919 printed one and they said, if you solve this in 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:22.560 less than twelve minutes, get in touch. And it turned 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.799 out that it was a recruiting tool for what would 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:30.359 become the Bletchley Park, where Alan Turing and his code 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:33.760 breakers helped win US World War two by solving the 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:36.400 Nazi Enigma code. So this is sort of like, are 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.159 you good enough to be a code breaker? And I'll 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:41.800 give you one example, just to give you an example 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:45.360 of how tricky these were. They're almost like dad jokes 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:49.359 on steroids. They're like a clue for seventeen across. In 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:54.920 this famous puzzle was is this town ready for a flood? Question? 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:57.720 Mark is this town ready for a flood? And at 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:02.000 six letters it starts with So the way to think 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:04.000 about what do you think about when you think of 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:06.880 a flood? What comes to mind? What's the most famous 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:07.560 blood ever? 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:08.719 Noah? 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:10.720 Noah? And what did he use? 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:11.920 What did he use? 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:15.480 An arc? So if you're ready for a flood, you 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:19.599 don't want an old arc, you want a newer Newark. 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:22.640 So that's the kind of level of wordplay that they 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:25.520 were going for. So I love that. And there was 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:29.599 weirdly a sequel to that, because the Telegraph was involved 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:33.560 in another spy puzzle incident at the end of World 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:38.520 War Two. They printed these crosswords and the crosswords had 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:43.280 in them the answers included words like oh, Maha and 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:48.760 Utah and neptune and mulberry. And someone noticed this and 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:52.679 those were secret code words used by the Allies during 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:56.200 D Day, and they freaked out and they said, oh 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:59.560 my god, there is a leak in the crossword puzzle. 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:04.039 And they rested this nerdy school master who had written 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:07.920 the crosswords, and they thrilled them. But it turned out 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:11.520 most people think It was a weird coincidence, because those 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:16.080 coincidences do happen. But whatever, the British spy Service got 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.880 involved and arrested this poor guy and it turned out. 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.920 Ayja, you seem to be pretty supportive of nerdy puzzle guys. 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:27.440 Yes, I am very pro nerdy puzzle people. I think 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:30.839 more nerdy puzzle people would make the world a better place. 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:34.000 And I'll defend that, not physically because I'm nerdy. 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:37.240 So well. Here in the US, our short of first 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:40.440 code breaking organization who I was tied to the Army, 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:42.880 and it was in a building near where I'm living 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:46.520 now in northern Virginia, near Washington. It's now the State 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:49.880 Department's Preparation and Training school. And of course in the 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:52.640 United States now the main sort of code breaking organization 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:54.839 is the n essay, the National Security Agency. 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:58.719 In my book, I did actually go to Langley to 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:03.000 the headquarters of this to see one of the great 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:06.600 unsolved puzzles of all time right there at the headquarters 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:08.040 of the CIA. 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:10.160 Cryptos yam, quick question, did you go to the Dunkin 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:12.680 Donuts or did you go to the Starbucks? That's how 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:16.120 we divide people there. Yeah, and which are you tribes, 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:18.480 Dunkin Donuts, I'm Dunkin Okay good. 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:21.400 And it's Starbucks. When they say what name do you want? 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:23.080 You can't give them your real name, right if you're 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:24.720 under cover, you got to give them a fake name. 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:27.280 And the baristas have to get security clearances. 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:29.960 It was a weekend, so I actually did not get 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:33.160 to do either. But as you know, Cryptos is this 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:36.720 sculpture that was commissioned in nineteen eighty eight to spruce 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:41.280 up the CIA headquarters. And it was done by a 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:46.320 sculptor named Jim Sandborn in collaboration with a cryptographer who 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:49.240 used to work at the CIA. And it contains like 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:53.480 hundreds of these characters, these letters, and they are a code, 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.600 and some of the code has been broken, but not 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:59.480 all of it. There's one section at the end that 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.640 has not been broken. And there are thousands, literally thousands 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:07.680 of people whose passion, whose hobby is to try to 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:11.559 break Cryptos number four, as it's called. And I'm on 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.560 this bulletin board where every day I get like ten 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.280 emails about, Oh, I think I got it. It's the 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:21.640 wind Talkers, that's the It's actually no, it's from Moby Dick. 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:24.440 All these crazy theories, and of course none of them 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:27.760 are right yet. So yeah, I just visited it, but 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.680 you worked there. So what was it like from the inside, 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:32.600 having this mysterious sculpture. 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:35.320 We have different tribes inside of the CIA, and so 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:39.840 John and I were like the operators, right, we handle spies, 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:42.400 we recruit spies, and quite frankly, we just look at 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:42.880 it and go. 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:46.960 We we're the knuckle draggers, that's right. 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:49.560 But there we do hear people who are like the 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:52.240 science and technology guys and the code guys, and like 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:54.640 they're in there looking at it, and we're like, basically, 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:56.280 it's beyond us. We don't even truck. 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:02.640 Yeah, it was beyond me. But what I found interesting 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:05.160 about it, First of all, I loved going to the 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.440 CIA because getting vetted for it was a hilarious and 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:12.200 crazy long process. And then when I announced on the 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:15.560 board that I was going to visit in person, they 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:19.560 got all excited and they're like, look and see what 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:23.440 the color of the grass is on this section? Is 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:26.520 the water in the whirlpool? Which way is it going 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:31.400 clockwise or counterclockwise? Are the bolts in any particular? So 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:35.520 they had all of these ideas, and to me, cryptos 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:39.520 is a very good example of a phenomenon that is 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:44.880 related to both puzzles and conspiracies, and that is apenia. 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:49.880 And appenia is our tendency to find patterns where there 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:54.520 are no patterns, to find signal in the noise. So 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:57.800 if you see Jesus's face on a piece of French toast, 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:01.760 that's apathenia, or maybe not, maybe as who knows, maybe 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:04.280 it is a miracle, but it is at the heart 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:07.839 of so much conspiracy. You're seeing all of these connections 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:11.520 that aren't there. You see, Ah, the word CP in 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:14.760 these emails. That doesn't stand for cheese pizza. They're not 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:18.760 ordering cheese pizza. That's child pornography. And that was literally 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:21.920 one of the big breaks that QAnon came up with. 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:25.679 And I think as humans were built to see patterns, 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:29.439 which was good from an evolutionary standpoint. When there was 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:32.680 a rustle in the grass, you wanted to believe that 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:36.440 it was a snake because the cost of being mistaken 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:40.440 was pretty minimal, whereas the cost of being mistaken the 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:42.520 other way. You thought it was wind, but it was 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:46.320 really a snake. That is costly, that'll get you killed. 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:50.480 So we have this tendency to apophenia, but now in 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.520 the age of social media, not a good thing. That's 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:56.560 where we get QAnon and all because we're seeing all 0:10:56.600 --> 0:11:00.200 of these connections that don't exist. And my theory is 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:05.320 that puzzles are a safe outlet for your apathenia because 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.760 there is an actual connection and you can find it, 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:12.800 but it's not going to inspire you to storm the capitol. 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:15.880 It is a puzzle and it is for fun, and 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:19.520 it also teaches you how to be wary of apia 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:23.880 because you have to be very open minded and say 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:27.000 you give me as much evidence as you want, doesn't matter. 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:30.520 I am still going to stick with this crazy hypothesis. 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:32.160 Let's take a break, we'll be right back. 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:45.880 Let me switch and ask you about another one of 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.000 your books about the Constitution that you wrote in your 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:52.920 study the Constitution, So, what conspiracy theories were prevalent among 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:55.920 the founding fathers. In fact, I've heard some British scholars 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.079 suggest that the country was founded on a false conspiracy 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:02.240 that King Georgia was much more oppressive than in fact 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:03.880 he was. In those type of things. So I'm interested 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:07.079 in your thoughts about conspiracies and defunding fathers. 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:11.200 It depends on which historian you talk to. I loved 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:15.959 these British historians who I heard giving a lecture and 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:21.480 they were saying just that the colonists were very conspiracy minded. 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.840 They were paranoid. They thought the British were out to 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:29.079 get them, whereas these British historians argued, no, actually, if 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:32.520 you look at the data, the colonists were paying ten 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:36.760 percent of the taxes that the British people were in 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.679 the British homeland, so we were actually getting off easily. 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:43.440 I found it. It was hilarious because I got my patriotism up. 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.719 I'm like, you, British bastard, I can't believe your call. 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.880 You know, this was a fight for freedom, but it 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:53.320 was fascinating to see their point of view. As with 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:55.640 many things, I'm sure it was a mixture, but I 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.600 do think after a while they were seeing the worst 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:03.280 in what Britain did. And there were people who like 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:06.280 John Dickinson, who didn't want to go to war. And 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:10.000 Dickinson's like, let's just calm down, let's just take a breath, 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:11.480 but he lost out in the end. 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:14.520 Yeah, do you have any sense of the culpeper written? 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:18.240 So this was George Washington's espionage network in New York 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:21.440 and up the East Coast, and they had ad a 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:25.360 guy's name was Talmadge came up with this elaborate code 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:28.720 with like seven to eight hundred different sort of codes. 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:32.920 George Washington was seven to point one famously in the code. 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:38.360 But they ran espionage operations that allowed for the numerically 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:43.360 inferior and qualitatively inferior US forces defeat the British over 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:47.240 and over again because we had better spy networks. 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:48.559 I love that. 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:54.200 And five years the Culpeper Ring operated inside of then 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:58.520 British occupied New York and they were never hot and 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:01.600 the British several times were able to acquire some of 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:04.160 the messages, but they couldn't break the code. 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.160 And by the way, I believe that one of the 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.880 centers of espionage and the Revolutionary War was France's tavern 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:14.280 in downtown New York, where you can still go and 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:17.040 have a pint. I know that one of the most 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:21.760 famous codes is called the Arnold Code or the Arnold cipher, 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:25.960 based on Benedict Arnold, and it's what he used to 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:30.680 communicate with the British, and that one you probably know, 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:34.120 it's you both have the same book, so maybe it's 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:38.120 the Bible, maybe it's a history book. And then the 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:41.800 code is you give the page number, you pick a 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:44.560 word that you need, so say the word is fort. 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:46.880 You know that they're going to storm a fort, and 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:49.000 you find it in the book, and you say the 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:53.160 page number, so that like forty three then five lines down, 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:57.080 four words in, so fifty three five four would be 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:02.600 the word fort. I actually just watched The Sympathizer on Netflix, 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:06.640 which is about Vietnamese spies, and they used the Arnold 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:10.680 czeipher even then. But I think, well, he certainly got caught. 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:13.080 I don't know. I don't think. I don't think it 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:14.400 was the thrilling that one book. 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.160 My wife is British, by the way, she mixes up 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.720 as like the Patriot and the Trader, which one was 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:23.920 which Arnold or Joel Washington is. 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:28.760 Like I've heard people try to defend Arnold, like, you know, 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:32.160 you revisionist history, like sort of the wicked view of 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:35.480 history where the wicked witch was actually the good person 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:39.560 and that he was unfairly looked over because he runs 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.360 a brilliant general. I'm not really buying it. I'm not 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:45.560 a huge fan of Benedict Arnold. So I am glad 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:46.600 that we caught. 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:48.760 Him going back to the thing with the Constitution and 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.480 trying to tie it to today. From your study of 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:54.160 the Funding Fathers and the Constitution, where do you see 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:57.000 us shifting away from their intent? Now? 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:01.720 Thank god, we don't follow the way they followed the Constitution, 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:05.960 because we're parts of it that were great in that time. 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:08.880 But we are in a different era, and so that 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:10.680 was part of the point of the book is to 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:14.840 show the evolution of our morals. And my method was 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:18.560 I decided to try to get inside the heads of 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:23.880 the Founding Fathers by using the technology and mindset from 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:28.520 the seventeen eighties. And that meant carrying a musket, eighteenth 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:31.720 century musket around New York for my Second Amendment rights. 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:36.320 It meant writing the book with a quill pen. And 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:40.600 it was fascinating. And there were parts of the Constitution 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:44.720 and the Founding Father's vision that are wonderful. I'm so 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:50.240 grateful for the idea of community and responsibility. But at 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:53.360 the same time, it was a very different world. And 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:56.400 so those who say that we should go back and 0:16:56.440 --> 0:17:00.440 live like the Founding Fathers intended, even they are not 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:05.640 really following it. So, for instance, the First Amendment. I'm 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:08.080 a journalist, so I love the First Amendment. I love 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:11.359 free speech, but our vision of free speech is not 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:14.920 based on the seventeen eighty nine version of free speech, 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:20.160 which was much more constrained. So back then they believed 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.159 that you could be punished for what you said and 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:28.440 what you wrote. And there were the sedition Acts from 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:33.040 John Adams where they arrested dozens of people, including some 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:36.360 poor guy who made an ass joke or more technically 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:40.400 an art's joke about John Adams, and so they were 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:44.320 much more restrictive. And only in the twentieth century did 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:47.480 we get this idea that it's an American value to 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.560 be able to say whatever we think. I am glad 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:54.199 that we have shifted. But neither side, neither conservatives or 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.000 liberals would want to go back to that original one 0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:00.400 because the liberals would hate things like there were laws 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:03.640 against blasphemy in New York. You got fined thirty seven 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:06.159 and a half cents for saying the word damn or 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:08.680 the F word. You would be find the same amount. 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:12.320 So liberals wouldn't like the original free speech, but conservatives 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:15.520 wouldn't either because it would never have covered something like 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:21.040 the idea that corporations giving money to politicians is considered 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:24.480 free speech. The Founders would have been appalled by that idea. 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:28.960 They were very concerned about money corrupting politics. So the 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:32.679 idea is, let's take some of the spirit of the 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:36.720 Founding fathers, their best parts, but let's not try to 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:41.280 stick to the letter of the Constitution because it's such 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:44.560 a different world we live in and our technology and 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:46.360 our morals have changed. 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:50.240 So I live here in Hawaii and the military here 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:53.639 every year they have a big celebration and a dinner. 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:57.760 It is to celebrate the Battle of Midway. And Midway 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:01.200 was of course the turning point, and we're two where 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:05.159 we could have lost, and Midway basically boiled down to 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:08.120 we lure the Japanese into a trap, and we did 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.280 this through a code. And we knew that the letters 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:14.840 AF for the sound AF, that for the Japanese. That 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:19.239 meant that was their target. And so we didn't know 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:21.400 the whole code, but we knew if it was AF 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:24.959 like AF Malaysia, that meant they were attacking Malaysia. And 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:29.760 so we had Midway put out in the open false 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:32.240 statements saying that they were short on water, that they 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:36.159 didn't have enough drinking water, and the Japanese picked that 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:40.840 up and in their code they said af the place 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:44.480 that didn't have enough water. And so the United States 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:48.360 bet the farm that the Japanese fleet was heading out 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:51.680 to take Midway, and it was a bet that won 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:54.320 us the war. And so when you'd sit down to 0:19:54.320 --> 0:20:00.280 talk with Navy personnel, for them, code breaking, espionage, and 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:03.560 victory at sea are all wound into one. 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:08.840 And I also love spreading those false information disinformation I 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:10.960 guess it would be, and that is one of my 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.040 favorite I shouldn't say favorite parts of warfare, but I 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:17.840 always find it fascinating. You know, Napoleon would print fake 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:22.439 newspapers in the Russian I believe to throw off the 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:26.159 Russians at D Day. They made these fake planes that 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:29.640 looked like they were real planes when you were overhead, 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:33.240 because they wanted to get the Germans to think that 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:35.200 we were attacking from a different place. 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:37.119 Do you know who was put in charge of that 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:42.680 fake army patent? Germans thought they would never do that, 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:44.880 yet he was. 0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:47.000 In the dog house. He was in trouble, but the 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:49.040 Germans thought he was the main commander and so they 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:51.160 put him in charge of that. So the Germans would think, oh, 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:53.320 he's gonna be in charge of this attack to. 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:56.240 Klais, imagine how angry he must have been. I can't 0:20:56.280 --> 0:20:59.640 even he seems like a because. 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:02.359 He did want to Let's take a break. We'll be 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:08.840 right back. I'm going back to the fact that you've 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:12.280 studied so many different things. I recall that you also 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:15.560 at one point got involved like heavy duty exercise and 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:18.280 health and fitness, and one article you talked about calling 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:20.480 yourself a germa full. You know, nowadays it seems like 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.240 there's so much misinformation about health and things out there, 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:24.960 and obviously RFK Junior is now going to. 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:25.879 Be our own My goodness. 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:29.600 Yeah, can you talk a little bit about misinformation, possibly 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:32.280 conspiracies and things that you learned in the health, fitness 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:33.600 and science area. 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:37.200 Oh yeah, I love this topic because it's so important. 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:41.639 Ninety percent of health advice could be summed up in 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:45.840 a paragraph. Get enough sleep, don't stress, have a group 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:49.920 of friends, exercise in a way you like, don't eat 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:53.720 processed foods, don't smoke, don't hit yourself in the face 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:58.040 with an axe. Yeah, just very obvious stuff. But the 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:00.960 problem is if you're a health health journalist or a 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:04.359 health writer or a health influence So that's boring. No 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:06.920 one's going to tune in to you saying that paragraph. 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:11.159 Every week. You have to come up with new ideas 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:15.640 that they are keeping secret, the real secret. Here's the 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:18.679 real herb that's going to make you live another one 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:22.800 hundred years. And it's just ninety eight percent of it 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:27.399 is bullshit. It's tied to our desire for new and 0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:30.960 secret information like that is exciting. We don't want to 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:33.920 hear the same thing, even if it's true. I talk 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:38.720 about the single study syndrome. Don't fall for the single study. 0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:41.639 You can always find a study in health that says 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:44.320 something like bacon is good for you and make you 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:47.600 live forever. But that's just one study. You've got to 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:50.480 look at the thousands of other studies that say, you 0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:53.040 know what, bacon is probably not good for you. So 0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:56.159