1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I was a 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 4 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 2: And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 5 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive 6 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 2: our adversaries. 7 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 1: Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 8 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: theories large and small. 9 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 2: Could they be true? Or are we being manipulated? 10 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:32,279 Speaker 1: This is Mission implausible. Welcome back to Mission Implausible. Our 11 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: producer John Stern is here with us today and he's 12 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: going to introduce our guests. Yeah. 13 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 3: Sometimes Adam Davidson brings on one of his friends and 14 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 3: everyone's very impressed. 15 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:45,480 Speaker 2: Everyone meaning Jerry. But today I. 16 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 3: Am bringing on someone who is going. 17 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 2: To blow all of Adam's guests away. 18 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 3: The actually is one of my favorite people, same as 19 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 3: AJ Jacobs. He's had a number of what I believe 20 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 3: John Stewart called method writing books. Do you remember Aj 21 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 3: would when you were writing The Year of Living Biblically 22 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 3: you met me for lunch on the Upper West Side. 23 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 3: I didn't know you were writing the book, and you 24 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 3: showed up in a white robe, long beard long hair 25 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 3: and barefoot. 26 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 4: I commit to the bit, that's right. 27 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 3: He also has a very fun and fascinating book called 28 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 3: The Puzzler and his podcast called The Puzzler, and his 29 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 3: most recent book is The Year of Living Constitutionally aj 30 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 3: as is. His want was living the Constitution in practical terms. 31 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 3: Aj When you got a cold, did you get like 32 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 3: leeches to be bled? 33 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:31,119 Speaker 2: Is that what you did? 34 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: Well? 35 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 4: First of all, I just want to say thank you 36 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 4: for that lovely introduction and thanks for having me on 37 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 4: the show. I love the show. Yes, I did try 38 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 4: to order leeches and my wife put a cabash on it. 39 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 4: I also when I went to the dermatologist and had 40 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 4: to have a mole removed, I did request no no, 41 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 4: no anesthetic, no anesthetic, and she said for insurance reasons 42 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 4: she couldn't. So that's my excuse for why I never 43 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 4: did blood letting or the tobacco smoke enema, which was 44 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 4: a very cutting edge and popular medical procedure of the 45 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 4: day where they would literally blow smoke up your butt. 46 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 4: That's where the phrase comes from. Most likely did insurance 47 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 4: cover it, Ben, But what was the insurance situation they 48 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 4: had for the founders? Carey quid Ben Franklin is considered 49 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 4: to have started some insurance like thing, but I don't 50 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 4: know if that was covered. 51 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 2: So getting into the weird intersection between puzzles and codes 52 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 2: and espionage and conspiracy theories, I'm going to throw a 53 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 2: story at you. This has to do with espionage and 54 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 2: it has to do with codes. It's one of my favorites. 55 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 2: I've been looking for an excuse to use it. So 56 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 2: let's go back to the fifteen twenties. Elizabeth the Second 57 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 2: is she's Queen of England and she has a spymaster, 58 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 2: a guy by the name of John d Dee, and 59 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 2: he goes around Europe collecting intelligence for the Queen. Now 60 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: d is a puzzle master like you, and he's also 61 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 2: very big to numerology, and he's decided that he should 62 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 2: be represented by the number seven. It was his lucky number, 63 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: and when he would write to the Queen, it was 64 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 2: for her eyes only, so he would put zero zero, 65 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 2: one for each eye, and then he would actually put 66 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: in like a little eyeball, a little dot, and then 67 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 2: number seven so she would know it was for her 68 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 2: eyes only, and it was from number seven, So he 69 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 2: was the first seven and when she responded to him. 70 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 2: She didn't write out Queen Elizabeth Majesty Rex. She just 71 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 2: wrote M and so this is where from out of Cambridge, 72 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 2: this is where seven comes from it. 73 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 4: I love this story. First of all, why didn't I 74 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 4: interview you for my book? This is fantastic. So here's 75 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 4: another one. World War two saw some interesting overlaps between 76 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 4: puzzles and spying. The Telegraph newspaper in England in nineteen 77 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 4: forty one, I believe, printed a very hard They love 78 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 4: in England. They love their super tricky wordplaye crosswords. They're 79 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 4: harder than in America. No offense to America. And they 80 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 4: printed one and they said, if you solve this in 81 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 4: less than twelve minutes, get in touch. And it turned 82 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,799 Speaker 4: out that it was a recruiting tool for what would 83 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 4: become the Bletchley Park, where Alan Turing and his code 84 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 4: breakers helped win US World War two by solving the 85 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 4: Nazi Enigma code. So this is sort of like, are 86 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 4: you good enough to be a code breaker? And I'll 87 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 4: give you one example, just to give you an example 88 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 4: of how tricky these were. They're almost like dad jokes 89 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 4: on steroids. They're like a clue for seventeen across. In 90 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 4: this famous puzzle was is this town ready for a flood? Question? 91 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 4: Mark is this town ready for a flood? And at 92 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 4: six letters it starts with So the way to think 93 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 4: about what do you think about when you think of 94 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 4: a flood? What comes to mind? What's the most famous 95 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 4: blood ever? 96 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 2: Noah? 97 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 4: Noah? And what did he use? 98 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 2: What did he use? 99 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 4: An arc? So if you're ready for a flood, you 100 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 4: don't want an old arc, you want a newer Newark. 101 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 4: So that's the kind of level of wordplay that they 102 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 4: were going for. So I love that. And there was 103 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 4: weirdly a sequel to that, because the Telegraph was involved 104 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 4: in another spy puzzle incident at the end of World 105 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 4: War Two. They printed these crosswords and the crosswords had 106 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 4: in them the answers included words like oh, Maha and 107 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 4: Utah and neptune and mulberry. And someone noticed this and 108 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,679 Speaker 4: those were secret code words used by the Allies during 109 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 4: D Day, and they freaked out and they said, oh 110 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 4: my god, there is a leak in the crossword puzzle. 111 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 4: And they rested this nerdy school master who had written 112 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 4: the crosswords, and they thrilled them. But it turned out 113 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 4: most people think It was a weird coincidence, because those 114 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 4: coincidences do happen. But whatever, the British spy Service got 115 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 4: involved and arrested this poor guy and it turned out. 116 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 2: Ayja, you seem to be pretty supportive of nerdy puzzle guys. 117 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 4: Yes, I am very pro nerdy puzzle people. I think 118 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 4: more nerdy puzzle people would make the world a better place. 119 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 4: And I'll defend that, not physically because I'm nerdy. 120 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: So well. Here in the US, our short of first 121 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: code breaking organization who I was tied to the Army, 122 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: and it was in a building near where I'm living 123 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: now in northern Virginia, near Washington. It's now the State 124 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: Department's Preparation and Training school. And of course in the 125 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: United States now the main sort of code breaking organization 126 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: is the n essay, the National Security Agency. 127 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 4: In my book, I did actually go to Langley to 128 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 4: the headquarters of this to see one of the great 129 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 4: unsolved puzzles of all time right there at the headquarters 130 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 4: of the CIA. 131 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: Cryptos yam, quick question, did you go to the Dunkin 132 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: Donuts or did you go to the Starbucks? That's how 133 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: we divide people there. Yeah, and which are you tribes, 134 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: Dunkin Donuts, I'm Dunkin Okay good. 135 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 2: And it's Starbucks. When they say what name do you want? 136 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: You can't give them your real name, right if you're 137 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 2: under cover, you got to give them a fake name. 138 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 2: And the baristas have to get security clearances. 139 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 4: It was a weekend, so I actually did not get 140 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 4: to do either. But as you know, Cryptos is this 141 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 4: sculpture that was commissioned in nineteen eighty eight to spruce 142 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 4: up the CIA headquarters. And it was done by a 143 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 4: sculptor named Jim Sandborn in collaboration with a cryptographer who 144 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 4: used to work at the CIA. And it contains like 145 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 4: hundreds of these characters, these letters, and they are a code, 146 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 4: and some of the code has been broken, but not 147 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 4: all of it. There's one section at the end that 148 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 4: has not been broken. And there are thousands, literally thousands 149 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 4: of people whose passion, whose hobby is to try to 150 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,559 Speaker 4: break Cryptos number four, as it's called. And I'm on 151 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 4: this bulletin board where every day I get like ten 152 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 4: emails about, Oh, I think I got it. It's the 153 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 4: wind Talkers, that's the It's actually no, it's from Moby Dick. 154 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 4: All these crazy theories, and of course none of them 155 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 4: are right yet. So yeah, I just visited it, but 156 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 4: you worked there. So what was it like from the inside, 157 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 4: having this mysterious sculpture. 158 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 2: We have different tribes inside of the CIA, and so 159 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 2: John and I were like the operators, right, we handle spies, 160 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 2: we recruit spies, and quite frankly, we just look at 161 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 2: it and go. 162 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: We we're the knuckle draggers, that's right. 163 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 2: But there we do hear people who are like the 164 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 2: science and technology guys and the code guys, and like 165 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 2: they're in there looking at it, and we're like, basically, 166 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 2: it's beyond us. We don't even truck. 167 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was beyond me. But what I found interesting 168 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 4: about it, First of all, I loved going to the 169 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 4: CIA because getting vetted for it was a hilarious and 170 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 4: crazy long process. And then when I announced on the 171 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 4: board that I was going to visit in person, they 172 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 4: got all excited and they're like, look and see what 173 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 4: the color of the grass is on this section? Is 174 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 4: the water in the whirlpool? Which way is it going 175 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 4: clockwise or counterclockwise? Are the bolts in any particular? So 176 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 4: they had all of these ideas, and to me, cryptos 177 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 4: is a very good example of a phenomenon that is 178 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 4: related to both puzzles and conspiracies, and that is apenia. 179 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 4: And appenia is our tendency to find patterns where there 180 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 4: are no patterns, to find signal in the noise. So 181 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 4: if you see Jesus's face on a piece of French toast, 182 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 4: that's apathenia, or maybe not, maybe as who knows, maybe 183 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 4: it is a miracle, but it is at the heart 184 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,839 Speaker 4: of so much conspiracy. You're seeing all of these connections 185 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 4: that aren't there. You see, Ah, the word CP in 186 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 4: these emails. That doesn't stand for cheese pizza. They're not 187 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 4: ordering cheese pizza. That's child pornography. And that was literally 188 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 4: one of the big breaks that QAnon came up with. 189 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 4: And I think as humans were built to see patterns, 190 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 4: which was good from an evolutionary standpoint. When there was 191 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 4: a rustle in the grass, you wanted to believe that 192 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 4: it was a snake because the cost of being mistaken 193 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 4: was pretty minimal, whereas the cost of being mistaken the 194 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 4: other way. You thought it was wind, but it was 195 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 4: really a snake. That is costly, that'll get you killed. 196 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 4: So we have this tendency to apophenia, but now in 197 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 4: the age of social media, not a good thing. That's 198 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 4: where we get QAnon and all because we're seeing all 199 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 4: of these connections that don't exist. And my theory is 200 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 4: that puzzles are a safe outlet for your apathenia because 201 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 4: there is an actual connection and you can find it, 202 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 4: but it's not going to inspire you to storm the capitol. 203 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 4: It is a puzzle and it is for fun, and 204 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 4: it also teaches you how to be wary of apia 205 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 4: because you have to be very open minded and say 206 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 4: you give me as much evidence as you want, doesn't matter. 207 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 4: I am still going to stick with this crazy hypothesis. 208 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 3: Let's take a break, we'll be right back. 209 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: Let me switch and ask you about another one of 210 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: your books about the Constitution that you wrote in your 211 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: study the Constitution, So, what conspiracy theories were prevalent among 212 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: the founding fathers. In fact, I've heard some British scholars 213 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 1: suggest that the country was founded on a false conspiracy 214 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: that King Georgia was much more oppressive than in fact 215 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: he was. In those type of things. So I'm interested 216 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 1: in your thoughts about conspiracies and defunding fathers. 217 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 4: It depends on which historian you talk to. I loved 218 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 4: these British historians who I heard giving a lecture and 219 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 4: they were saying just that the colonists were very conspiracy minded. 220 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 4: They were paranoid. They thought the British were out to 221 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:29,079 Speaker 4: get them, whereas these British historians argued, no, actually, if 222 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 4: you look at the data, the colonists were paying ten 223 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 4: percent of the taxes that the British people were in 224 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 4: the British homeland, so we were actually getting off easily. 225 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 4: I found it. It was hilarious because I got my patriotism up. 226 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,719 Speaker 4: I'm like, you, British bastard, I can't believe your call. 227 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 4: You know, this was a fight for freedom, but it 228 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 4: was fascinating to see their point of view. As with 229 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 4: many things, I'm sure it was a mixture, but I 230 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 4: do think after a while they were seeing the worst 231 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 4: in what Britain did. And there were people who like 232 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 4: John Dickinson, who didn't want to go to war. And 233 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 4: Dickinson's like, let's just calm down, let's just take a breath, 234 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 4: but he lost out in the end. 235 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, do you have any sense of the culpeper written? 236 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 2: So this was George Washington's espionage network in New York 237 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 2: and up the East Coast, and they had ad a 238 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 2: guy's name was Talmadge came up with this elaborate code 239 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 2: with like seven to eight hundred different sort of codes. 240 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 2: George Washington was seven to point one famously in the code. 241 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 2: But they ran espionage operations that allowed for the numerically 242 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 2: inferior and qualitatively inferior US forces defeat the British over 243 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 2: and over again because we had better spy networks. 244 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 4: I love that. 245 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 2: And five years the Culpeper Ring operated inside of then 246 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 2: British occupied New York and they were never hot and 247 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 2: the British several times were able to acquire some of 248 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 2: the messages, but they couldn't break the code. 249 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 4: And by the way, I believe that one of the 250 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 4: centers of espionage and the Revolutionary War was France's tavern 251 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 4: in downtown New York, where you can still go and 252 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 4: have a pint. I know that one of the most 253 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 4: famous codes is called the Arnold Code or the Arnold cipher, 254 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 4: based on Benedict Arnold, and it's what he used to 255 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 4: communicate with the British, and that one you probably know, 256 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 4: it's you both have the same book, so maybe it's 257 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 4: the Bible, maybe it's a history book. And then the 258 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 4: code is you give the page number, you pick a 259 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 4: word that you need, so say the word is fort. 260 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 4: You know that they're going to storm a fort, and 261 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 4: you find it in the book, and you say the 262 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 4: page number, so that like forty three then five lines down, 263 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 4: four words in, so fifty three five four would be 264 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 4: the word fort. I actually just watched The Sympathizer on Netflix, 265 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 4: which is about Vietnamese spies, and they used the Arnold 266 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 4: czeipher even then. But I think, well, he certainly got caught. 267 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't think. I don't think it 268 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 4: was the thrilling that one book. 269 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 2: My wife is British, by the way, she mixes up 270 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 2: as like the Patriot and the Trader, which one was 271 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 2: which Arnold or Joel Washington is. 272 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 4: Like I've heard people try to defend Arnold, like, you know, 273 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 4: you revisionist history, like sort of the wicked view of 274 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 4: history where the wicked witch was actually the good person 275 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 4: and that he was unfairly looked over because he runs 276 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 4: a brilliant general. I'm not really buying it. I'm not 277 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 4: a huge fan of Benedict Arnold. So I am glad 278 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 4: that we caught. 279 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: Him going back to the thing with the Constitution and 280 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: trying to tie it to today. From your study of 281 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: the Funding Fathers and the Constitution, where do you see 282 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: us shifting away from their intent? Now? 283 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 4: Thank god, we don't follow the way they followed the Constitution, 284 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 4: because we're parts of it that were great in that time. 285 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 4: But we are in a different era, and so that 286 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 4: was part of the point of the book is to 287 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 4: show the evolution of our morals. And my method was 288 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 4: I decided to try to get inside the heads of 289 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 4: the Founding Fathers by using the technology and mindset from 290 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 4: the seventeen eighties. And that meant carrying a musket, eighteenth 291 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 4: century musket around New York for my Second Amendment rights. 292 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 4: It meant writing the book with a quill pen. And 293 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 4: it was fascinating. And there were parts of the Constitution 294 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 4: and the Founding Father's vision that are wonderful. I'm so 295 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 4: grateful for the idea of community and responsibility. But at 296 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 4: the same time, it was a very different world. And 297 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 4: so those who say that we should go back and 298 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 4: live like the Founding Fathers intended, even they are not 299 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 4: really following it. So, for instance, the First Amendment. I'm 300 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 4: a journalist, so I love the First Amendment. I love 301 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 4: free speech, but our vision of free speech is not 302 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 4: based on the seventeen eighty nine version of free speech, 303 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 4: which was much more constrained. So back then they believed 304 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 4: that you could be punished for what you said and 305 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 4: what you wrote. And there were the sedition Acts from 306 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 4: John Adams where they arrested dozens of people, including some 307 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,360 Speaker 4: poor guy who made an ass joke or more technically 308 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 4: an art's joke about John Adams, and so they were 309 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 4: much more restrictive. And only in the twentieth century did 310 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 4: we get this idea that it's an American value to 311 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 4: be able to say whatever we think. I am glad 312 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:54,199 Speaker 4: that we have shifted. But neither side, neither conservatives or 313 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 4: liberals would want to go back to that original one 314 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 4: because the liberals would hate things like there were laws 315 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 4: against blasphemy in New York. You got fined thirty seven 316 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 4: and a half cents for saying the word damn or 317 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 4: the F word. You would be find the same amount. 318 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 4: So liberals wouldn't like the original free speech, but conservatives 319 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 4: wouldn't either because it would never have covered something like 320 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 4: the idea that corporations giving money to politicians is considered 321 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 4: free speech. The Founders would have been appalled by that idea. 322 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 4: They were very concerned about money corrupting politics. So the 323 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 4: idea is, let's take some of the spirit of the 324 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 4: Founding fathers, their best parts, but let's not try to 325 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 4: stick to the letter of the Constitution because it's such 326 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 4: a different world we live in and our technology and 327 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 4: our morals have changed. 328 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 2: So I live here in Hawaii and the military here 329 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 2: every year they have a big celebration and a dinner. 330 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 2: It is to celebrate the Battle of Midway. And Midway 331 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 2: was of course the turning point, and we're two where 332 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 2: we could have lost, and Midway basically boiled down to 333 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 2: we lure the Japanese into a trap, and we did 334 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 2: this through a code. And we knew that the letters 335 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 2: AF for the sound AF, that for the Japanese. That 336 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:19,239 Speaker 2: meant that was their target. And so we didn't know 337 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 2: the whole code, but we knew if it was AF 338 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,959 Speaker 2: like AF Malaysia, that meant they were attacking Malaysia. And 339 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 2: so we had Midway put out in the open false 340 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 2: statements saying that they were short on water, that they 341 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 2: didn't have enough drinking water, and the Japanese picked that 342 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 2: up and in their code they said af the place 343 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 2: that didn't have enough water. And so the United States 344 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 2: bet the farm that the Japanese fleet was heading out 345 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 2: to take Midway, and it was a bet that won 346 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 2: us the war. And so when you'd sit down to 347 00:19:54,320 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 2: talk with Navy personnel, for them, code breaking, espionage, and 348 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 2: victory at sea are all wound into one. 349 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 4: And I also love spreading those false information disinformation I 350 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 4: guess it would be, and that is one of my 351 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 4: favorite I shouldn't say favorite parts of warfare, but I 352 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 4: always find it fascinating. You know, Napoleon would print fake 353 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 4: newspapers in the Russian I believe to throw off the 354 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 4: Russians at D Day. They made these fake planes that 355 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 4: looked like they were real planes when you were overhead, 356 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 4: because they wanted to get the Germans to think that 357 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 4: we were attacking from a different place. 358 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 2: Do you know who was put in charge of that 359 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 2: fake army patent? Germans thought they would never do that, 360 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 2: yet he was. 361 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: In the dog house. He was in trouble, but the 362 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: Germans thought he was the main commander and so they 363 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 1: put him in charge of that. So the Germans would think, oh, 364 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: he's gonna be in charge of this attack to. 365 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 4: Klais, imagine how angry he must have been. I can't 366 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 4: even he seems like a because. 367 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: He did want to Let's take a break. We'll be 368 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: right back. I'm going back to the fact that you've 369 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: studied so many different things. I recall that you also 370 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: at one point got involved like heavy duty exercise and 371 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: health and fitness, and one article you talked about calling 372 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: yourself a germa full. You know, nowadays it seems like 373 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: there's so much misinformation about health and things out there, 374 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: and obviously RFK Junior is now going to. 375 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 4: Be our own My goodness. 376 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, can you talk a little bit about misinformation, possibly 377 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: conspiracies and things that you learned in the health, fitness 378 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: and science area. 379 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I love this topic because it's so important. 380 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 4: Ninety percent of health advice could be summed up in 381 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 4: a paragraph. Get enough sleep, don't stress, have a group 382 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 4: of friends, exercise in a way you like, don't eat 383 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 4: processed foods, don't smoke, don't hit yourself in the face 384 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 4: with an axe. Yeah, just very obvious stuff. But the 385 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 4: problem is if you're a health health journalist or a 386 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 4: health writer or a health influence So that's boring. No 387 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 4: one's going to tune in to you saying that paragraph. 388 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 4: Every week. You have to come up with new ideas 389 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 4: that they are keeping secret, the real secret. Here's the 390 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 4: real herb that's going to make you live another one 391 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 4: hundred years. And it's just ninety eight percent of it 392 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 4: is bullshit. It's tied to our desire for new and 393 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 4: secret information like that is exciting. We don't want to 394 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 4: hear the same thing, even if it's true. I talk 395 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 4: about the single study syndrome. Don't fall for the single study. 396 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 4: You can always find a study in health that says 397 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 4: something like bacon is good for you and make you 398 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 4: live forever. But that's just one study. You've got to 399 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 4: look at the thousands of other studies that say, you 400 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 4: know what, bacon is probably not good for you. So 401 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 4: look at the big picture. But if you're in health journalist, 402 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 4: you're gonna look at that one study that's exciting and 403 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 4: counter and inuitive and new and be like, oh, look 404 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 4: at this, bacon is good for you. And that's where 405 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 4: so much of the misinformation comes from. 406 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: Well, so you're blaming the media on this one. All right. 407 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 4: I'm a part of the media and I fully blame 408 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 4: the media. 409 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, but could you go deeper on it and go 410 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 5: into like specific conspiracy theories, especially when it comes to 411 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 5: like getting vaccines and things like that, and that is 412 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 5: a Those are conspiracy theories. 413 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 2: Conspiracies, and they're really harmful to our politics, but more 414 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 2: importantly to the general health situation. 415 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 4: It's so frustrating to see the anti vax movement have 416 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 4: so much power. And as for why, I think it 417 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 4: goes back to this idea that people love secrets. They 418 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 4: love to assume that authorities are out to get them, 419 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 4: and sometimes they are. Sometimes authorities are, but often they're not. 420 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 4: Paranoia is it feels good. It feels good to be like, oh, 421 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 4: they're out to get make I actually talk about the 422 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 4: opposite of paranoia is called pro noya, which is the 423 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 4: idea that people are secretly plotting to make your life better. 424 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 4: And I do think there are people in the government 425 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 4: who I should be pronoyed about. There are people who 426 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 4: are trying to make our lives better, but that's not 427 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 4: as exciting a story as that these secret authorities are 428 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 4: out to get us, so that I think plays a 429 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 4: big part in this anti vax. 430 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 2: My sense is people are out to get them, but 431 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 2: it's not the government people. It's the people trying to 432 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 2: sell them snake oil. I don't really watch Alex Jones, 433 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 2: but I've tuned in a couple of times to see 434 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 2: what it's about. You know, he's selling you vitamin supplements 435 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 2: that will help you live. He's stoking the fear of 436 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 2: government that doesn't defend itself. And what he's doing, he's 437 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 2: making money of it, and he's gaining influence, and there's 438 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 2: a whole industry, right. 439 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 4: It's interesting. I think it's I see it as a 440 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 4: little more nuanced. I think that there are certainly some 441 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 4: quacks who are out to get you, But I think 442 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 4: quacks believe what they're selling. They believe their snake oil 443 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 4: is good. And I think scientific literacy needs to be 444 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 4: taught in schools more. We need to tell people this 445 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 4: is how you read a study. But a lot of 446 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 4: these people say, oh, I gave this guy in my 447 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 4: snake oil and six months later he was cured. Oh 448 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 4: could that be a correlation and not causation? Probably the 449 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 4: same with astrology and people who read poems. I think 450 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 4: most of them actually believe that they are telling the 451 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 4: truth and providing a service. And I don't know how 452 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 4: to battle that is, except for teaching people scientific literacy. 453 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: Nowadays it's about typing just some stuff into the Google machine. 454 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: And I know one of the things that you wrote 455 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: about it is that you had read the encyclopedia from 456 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: front to back. And there's probably people now that don't 457 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 1: even know what an encyclopedia is, and they would probably think, well, 458 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: did you read the whole Internet? But I saw a thing. 459 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: A teacher tried to expose her children to the encyclopedia 460 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: and they really jumped in and they said, oh, yeah, 461 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: we know how to do that. And then when she said, okay, 462 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: look up D day or something, they started looking under 463 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 1: W for what is D day? Because that's how you look, 464 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: That's how you look on the computer. Right. 465 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 4: That is hilarious. I love it. Yeah, I did it. 466 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 4: I read this book was about twenty years ago, and 467 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 4: it was at the very tail end of physical encyclopedias 468 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 4: of a year or two later they stopped. And that 469 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 4: is it's a big problem because at the time that 470 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 4: was seen as an authoritative source and they did try 471 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 4: to be objective and they didn't always succeed, but they tried. 472 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 4: Whereas now with online everything is flat, so it's very 473 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 4: hard to tell what is authoritative and what is not. 474 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 4: I have a few heuristics that I use. You know, 475 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 4: if it's dot edu, it gets like a plus one 476 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 4: in my book. If they admit their mistakes, you get 477 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 4: you're like, okay, then maybe that's something. If I don't 478 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 4: use forty two exclamation points, that's probably a good thing. 479 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 4: That's my job is to try to figure out what 480 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 4: information is right and what is not. And for me 481 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 4: it's a struggle. So if you don't have the time 482 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 4: and it's not your job, I feel for you. And 483 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 4: there needs to be some sort of you know how 484 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 4: bonds and securities have a rating. I think we need 485 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 4: something like that on the internet. 486 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 2: No discussion of espionage and conspiracy theories and codes is 487 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 2: complete without at least touching on a recent story that's 488 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 2: come out. This is on cryptos a gay and it's 489 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 2: it's it's all out and out. It was like incredibly 490 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 2: secret CIA German B and D operation where the question 491 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 2: was how do you defeat all the different codes? And 492 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 2: the answer is you make the code machine. And so 493 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 2: this Swiss company Cryptos, I gay it's been around for 494 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 2: a long time. And CIA's ag in English, Jerry age. 495 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 2: That's right. So one hundred and twenty countries around the world, 496 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 2: they had the most intricate codes that puzzle breakers aja, 497 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 2: not even you could perhaps break. But they see I 498 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 2: didn't even need to break them because they were making 499 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 2: the codes. So they had basically all the countries and 500 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 2: maybe not Russian, but all the other countries in the 501 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 2: world all used this one machine and the Germans and 502 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:19,439 Speaker 2: Americans had a backdoor into it. 503 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 4: Well it is yeah, it's a perpetual cat and mouse 504 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 4: game of will the code breakers be able to break 505 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 4: the ultimate code? And that was why we won World 506 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 4: War two as we broke the German Enigma code thanks 507 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 4: to Alan Turing and thanks to the Polish. I have 508 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 4: Polish ancestors. They used to tell Polish jokes back in 509 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 4: my childhood, but no more. They helped us win World 510 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 4: War Two. 511 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: The Poles and Finns who passed on some that code 512 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: material from the Jerseys, the friends. 513 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 2: We stolen a Nigma machine in Washington, d C. We 514 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 2: had a woman basically she slept with the German code 515 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 2: clerk for her country. 516 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 4: But I do think I guess we do need codes 517 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 4: because I did once and our on something called radical honesty. 518 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 4: And this was a psychologist in Virginia who believed that 519 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 4: the world would be a better place if everyone was 520 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 4: totally honest all the time, but more than that, if 521 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 4: whatever was on their brain came out of their mouth. 522 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 4: So the classic you look fat in this dress, you 523 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 4: would just say it, and he thought that's a more 524 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 4: authentic and there would be bumps, but it's a more 525 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 4: authentic way to live. I tried it for a month 526 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 4: and it was disastrous. It was just a horrible you know, 527 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 4: it was awkward and our There were moments that were 528 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 4: liberating and lovely and made my life better and made 529 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 4: my friend's life better, but overall I don't recommend it. 530 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 4: What do you all think of radical honesty? Do you 531 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 4: think we could ever get to a society where we 532 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 4: don't need secrets and the CIA would not be necessary? 533 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 2: No, not if people were involved there. 534 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree. 535 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: You know you're a polymath rights. We've talked all about 536 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: the Constitution, and we've talked about health, and we've talked 537 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: about puzzles. You also I think did a book on 538 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: the Bible. Can you tell us about some conspiracies or 539 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: misinformation or things you learned in that study. 540 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 4: Well, first of all, there is a famous conspiracy, or 541 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 4: a few famous conspiracies in the Bible and code. You 542 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 4: know the word shibboleth. It's a word that you can 543 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 4: use to identify who is and who is not part 544 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 4: of your tribe. And it was based on the word shibboleth, 545 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 4: which I think the Philistines could not properly pronounce, so 546 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 4: the Hebrews would say it. And if you said it correctly, 547 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 4: then you were part of the tribe. What I tried 548 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 4: to try do was follow the Bible as literally as possible, 549 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 4: to try to explore how literally should we take the Bible. 550 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 4: And I went a little overboard, as it's might want. 551 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 4: And so I you know, I wore a robe, and 552 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 4: I couldn't shave the corners of my beard because the 553 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 4: Bible says that you can't shave your corner. I didn't 554 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 4: know where the corners were, so I let the whole 555 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 4: thing grow. I stoned adulterers. I used very small stones, 556 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 4: but I was able to stone some adulters. But a 557 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 4: lot of it is about how metaphorical are these words 558 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 4: and how literally should we take them? And so I 559 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 4: spent time with creationists who believe that the world is 560 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 4: five thousand years old and that evolution is a false 561 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 4: conspiracy by these intellectuals to try to bring down society. 562 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 4: The problem is that they say, if one part of 563 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 4: the Bible is proved to be metaphorical or wrong, then 564 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 4: then why follow any of it? Why follow the parts 565 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 4: about loving your neighbor? But I think that's a very 566 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 4: black and white view of the Bible. I think you 567 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 4: can people talk about cherry picking like it's a bad thing, 568 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 4: but we all cherry pick. We have to cherry pick. 569 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 4: We pick the good cherries, and so pick the cherries 570 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 4: about loving your neighbor, don't pick the cherries about homosexuality 571 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 4: is a sin. So that was one of the points 572 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 4: of the book. 573 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: Pronouncing Shibbaleth correctly is a way you could see which 574 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: Triber and I didn't realize that. Do you know how 575 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: you could do that? In the CIA? There's a couple 576 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: of things that you can tell when someone doesn't have 577 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: a connection to CIA. 578 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 4: Oh I want to know, I want to know. 579 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: Well, one is we don't say the CIA, we always 580 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: just say when I was at CIA or CIA did this? 581 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 4: We never say the good. 582 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: The other one is people always make the mistake and 583 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: call people like us that worked over the agents say, 584 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: were you a CIA agent? Agents are our sources that 585 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: people re recruit to spyflace officers were CIA officers or 586 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: case officers? Is there's some things that like Lacare wrote, 587 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: like the word mole. Apparently we never re used the 588 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: word mole. He used it in his writing, and then 589 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: all of a sudden it became the way to talk 590 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: about a spy inside your own service. 591 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 4: Oh, I didn't know that. 592 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 2: One of my favorite codes. So I lived in India 593 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 2: for a long time, and back in the eighteen forty 594 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 2: he is a guy the named Charles Napier. He hunkeered 595 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 2: a whole hunk of India, this western part of it 596 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 2: called the sin Si n d H. Right, it's just 597 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 2: Pakistan of India. He wasn't supposed to conquer it. He 598 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 2: was just supposed to go in and put down this 599 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 2: local uprising. And so he went beyond his brief and 600 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 2: he basically defeated the enemy and took it all over, 601 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 2: annexed it for queen and country and he needed to 602 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 2: send back a message, but he didn't want to send 603 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 2: it back in English, and he didn't have a code 604 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 2: handy because the messengers would be you know, the local 605 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 2: maharajas would stop and read the letter and andy he 606 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 2: didn't want them to know before brittened it. So he thought, well, 607 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,239 Speaker 2: how do I do this? And of course they're all 608 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 2: classically educated then, and so he wrote one word at tave, which, 609 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 2: of course my Latin is rusty, but in Latin that 610 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 2: means I have sinned, si n n ed. When they 611 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 2: got it, they're like, I have sinned. Is like, oh 612 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 2: he's got I have SI and d age. He's freaking conquered, 613 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 2: like a big honk, you know, a thousand square miles 614 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 2: that we didn't want and don't need. So that's a 615 00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 2: good hunk of Pakistan today. 616 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 4: Oh it's a great sorry plus a double meaning. I mean, 617 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 4: he did sin He went against his orders, so he 618 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 4: sinned and he got sinned. So it's a confession. It's 619 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 4: a great story. I love that. 620 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: Well, a Jay, it's so nice to talk to you. 621 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 1: You seem to know everything about everything, So thank you 622 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 1: so much for spending time with us and putting up 623 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:20,760 Speaker 1: with our crazy questions. 624 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 4: No, my pleasure. First of all, that statement is huge misinformation. 625 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 4: I know some things about some things, and some of 626 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 4: those things are true, and some of them I think 627 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 4: are true. But I love curiosity, and I do think 628 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 4: that is at the heart of all of my books, 629 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 4: and I think it's at the heart of what we 630 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 4: as a society need to do to save democracy. Well, 631 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 4: thank you, this was a delight, I really and I 632 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,399 Speaker 4: can't wait for you to come and puzzle with us. 633 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: On the puzzle of our pleasure. 634 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 4: I'll be gentle, I'll be general. 635 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 3: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher, 636 00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 3: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission 637 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 3: Implausible it is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable 638 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 3: Pictures for iHeart Podcasts.