WEBVTT - Yolk with Doak 1: Golf Course Architecture 101 - Part 1 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:10.480 Tom Doak is back and as usual, he's not holding back. 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:17.120 But don't toss the yolk and the famously candid Doak 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:22.040 doesn't pull any punches. How do I make natural looking? Contour? 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:25.079 Hire the biggest fool in the village and told him to. 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:28.840 Make it flat burst, overrated, underrated, rough. 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:32.120 Terribly overrated over the years. 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:42.360 Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to the first episode of The 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:43.240 Yoke with Doak. 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:46.680 Tom exciting to get this going. 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:49.559 Thanks Andy, it's nice to be here. And a very 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:53.600 clever title on your part. There's not many things that 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:54.280 rhyme with Doke. 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:56.760 There were, you know, my. 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:00.200 Wife kept saying it's got to be talking with Tom 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:04.160 and I was like, that's about the most boring title 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:05.080 you could come up with. 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:08.160 But it worked out. 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:14.200 So today we're going to talk about golf course architecture 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:17.399 one on one. So we've got a ton of questions 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:21.600 from listeners and they range from you know, the very beginning, 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:26.000 you know, what what is golf course architecture? To you know, 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:31.959 questions about specific features that you know different golf courses. 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:36.320 So the first question I think where we can start 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:40.040 off with is from Tommy j and it was it's 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:43.520 how would you describe golf course architecture to fifth grader? 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:48.920 Oh, to a fifth grader, that's about the age where 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:56.880 I took up golf. I think that the idea of 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:03.559 golf course architecture is to playing out a golf course 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:06.240 over the ground that'll be interesting for people to play, 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:09.520 you know. And part of that's finding the right path 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:11.800 across the ground so you don't have to keep climbing 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:14.880 up hills and going downhills too much. And then part 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:19.120 of it's figuring out what sorts of things you have 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:21.880 to build to add to the fun and the interest 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:22.640 of the golf course. 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:26.560 Yeah, I think that's a good way to do it. 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:30.960 I remember my early golf memories. I played tree golf 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:33.920 and I would play with whiffle balls in our front 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:36.960 yards or in our neighborhood with a buddy, and we'd 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:39.560 played at different trees, but we had the street was 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:41.760 like a water hazard, so you know, you'd have to 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:44.040 play over it. It wouldn't have been a good golf 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:46.200 course design because there were a lot of four scarries. 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:50.200 Yeah. I started thinking about design more on paper. I 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:53.120 mean one of the very first courses I saw was 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:56.200 Harbortown when it was brand new, and the thing that 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:58.760 got me hooked on golf course architecture was this little 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:01.919 booklet that Charles I, the golf writer, had done. It 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:04.680 was like hole by hole diagrams. It's kind of like 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:07.239 you for a yardage book today, except without yardages because 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:09.440 it was nineteen seventy and people didn't play by yardage 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:12.200 so much. But it had like a diagram of the 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:15.800 whole and three really simple sentences about how to play it, like, 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:19.560 you know, this is a short par five, and if 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:22.200 you're going for the green in two, you need to 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:25.239 drive it left near that bunker, otherwise there's going to 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:27.000 be a tree in your way for the second shot, 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:29.480 you know. And it was something a ten year old 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:33.480 could read and understand, and golf course architecture really isn't 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:34.880 much more complicated than that. 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:39.800 I wonder if learning golf course architecture, you see it 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:43.920 with like languages, Now, kids get taught foreign languages at 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.760 age like four because they've found that it's easier to 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:50.160 oh wait wait, So I wonder if that would be 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.200 like similar for golf course architecture, Like if learning the 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:55.520 principles at a really young age would be easier. 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.000 I think it would help, you know, just in terms 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:04.480 terms of you know, coming to acceptance on a lot 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:07.840 of it, but also you know, really thinking through the 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:10.920 things that you challenge that challenge you about it. 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:15.360 Yeah, it's uh maybe it's it's the beginning of your 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:18.200 golf life. You should learn it, like right, that should 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:20.159 be the first thing you learned before you even learn 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:24.880 how to play. Let's uh so Mark Ell wants to know, 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:27.520 how do I know I'm standing on a good golf 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:30.839 hole in terms of the t shot, approach and green 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:32.040 How do you know it's good? 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:37.640 I think if it excites you, it's good. I mean, 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.919 you know, most architects would give you a lot of 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:48.560 different reasons about strategy, and you know, in some ways, 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:53.680 you know, good golf design is like watching some of 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:57.280 whose expert play billiards. It's like you have to make 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:00.760 one shot, but really good player is the about setting 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:03.839 up the next shot at the same time. And you 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:06.039 know a good golf hole does that too. You know, 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:09.000 it's not just about hitting along straight drive. It's about 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:11.080 you know, what's that going to leave you once you 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:14.400 do it? And you know, depending on your game, there 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:16.480 might be places you don't want to leave yourself because 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:19.880 you're you know, you're just not a good bunker player, 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:21.680 and there's a bunker fifty yards short of the green 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:23.279 and that's the last place you want to be, so 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:26.679 you know, do something different with your t shot instead 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:32.880 of risking that. But you know, it is simple enough 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:37.320 that the average person, you know, like my wife doesn't 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:41.800 play golf, but usually she can pick out a good 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:44.960 golf hole. It's there's just something about it that fits 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:47.839 the eye and it looks really engaging. And you don't 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:49.440 even have to be a golfer to know that the 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:50.440 proportions are right. 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:55.520 As I was recently at a golf course and and 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:58.960 somebody that didn't know a ton about golf was like, oh, 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:02.559 I love the thirty hole there, and like sure enough 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:04.839 that hole was like it was like one of the 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:07.520 coolest holes out of the golf course for sure, Like 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:09.800 you know, probably it was probably the hole that sticks 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:11.800 with you the most. But it's like, you know, this 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:14.760 is a novice that doesn't know anything, but he picked 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:18.599 out that hole. I remember that hole, So ma, that's 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:23.280 that's uh, there's a lot of truth to that. So 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:26.719 Kyle Nathan asks, what are the different styles of golf 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:28.400 course architecture. 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:34.400 The you know, the old books that I've read about 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:40.440 golf course architecture separated into three schools. There was penal design, 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:42.760 which is, if you hit a bad shot, you wind 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:44.880 up in a bunker or a hazard or something just 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:51.040 right off the bat. Strategic design, which is, maybe there 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:53.920 aren't a lot of hazards, but the hazards are really 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:57.599 close to where you really want to go, so you 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:00.839 can decide to flirt with them or play give them 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:03.120 a lot of room and kind of play half away 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:08.279 from them. And then Robert tren Jones started talking about 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:11.440 that he was doing something different called the heroic school, 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:15.200 where you know, you you give somebody a water hazard 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:17.480 to hit over it in order to gain an advantage 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:21.040 for the next shot. So that's kind of strategic, but 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:25.600 more in your face, you know. And I've always used 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:32.160 the example that great golf courses really have a usually 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:34.320 have a mix of all three. I mean, you very 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:38.840 rarely see I don't think you ever see a course 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:42.200 with eighteen just purely strategic holes that don't have any 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:47.200 you know, left and right bunkering on a hole, you know. 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:52.960 I once used the example of Augusta National. You look 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:56.119 at eleven, twelve, thirteen in augusta National, they are pretty 0:07:56.160 --> 0:08:00.680 famous holes. Eleven is really strategic. There's only one thing 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:02.560 you don't want to do. Hit it in the lake 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:04.080 to the left. You've got all the room in the 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:06.119 world on the right to avoid the lake to the left. 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:09.200 You get to number twelve, and that's a penal hole. Yeah, 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:13.320 I mean there is. You know, you can aim away 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:15.440 from the right hand pin over to the left hand pin, 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.000 but if you do that, you're hitting over a bunker 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:21.400 with another nasty bunker behind, so you're avoiding the water. 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:23.960 You know. It's like you do have choices, but you 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:26.080 still have to hit a really good shot. There's no 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:28.160 getting around having to hit a good shot on that hole. 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:31.840 And then thirteen is more of a heroic hole. You know, 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:33.880 if you're a great player, you're thinking about going for 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:37.000 it in two and shaping your shot around the corner 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:39.200 of the dog legs, so you've got a way to 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:43.400 get in there, and you shorten the approach where it's possible, 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:46.040 you know, and the average player can't think that way, 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:48.040 but it's a good three shot hole for them, so 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:50.880 you know, there's a really good example. August is considered 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:55.840 like one of the great strategic courses, but not every 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:57.920 hole on it is a purely strategic hole. 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:01.320 Yeah, there's still like some peenus aspects of it. I 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:06.080 was writing an article on a short part three the 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:08.920 other day and I was thinking about it. I was like, well, like, 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:11.760 all short par threes are kind of penal holes for 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:12.479 the most. 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:16.520 Part, nearly all. Yeah, I mean, you know, sometimes I 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:22.040 take flak from people that, you know, I've heard several 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:24.439 people say they don't like my par threes as much 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:27.040 as some of my other holes, and it's I think 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:29.520 it's because I don't really like building penal holes, so 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.160 I don't, you know, I don't like surrounding greens with bunkers. 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:35.080 I'll usually give you a place to miss. And for 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:38.240 most people, a good par three is a penal hole 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:41.319 that it's just guarded everywhere because they figure you've got 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:43.520 a short iron in your hands and it's on a tee, 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:45.199 so you ought to be this is the time. I 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:46.920 ought to be able to make you hit a good shot. 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:51.800 I feel like those par threes are great, but something 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.000 that gets messed up there is with the like the 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:59.280 ladies and senior teas because they have to have this 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:01.600 forced care, and a lot of times they don't. They 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:04.720 don't move the teas up far enough to give them 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:07.360 a chance because they're hitting like a I watched my mom. 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:10.160 She'll hit like have to hit like a five wood. 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:12.800 Right into like this little green with a with bunkers 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:14.079 everywhere exactly. 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:19.760 I mean, you know, you don't building a green that 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:22.840 requires a carry into it is really hard for people 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:26.280 who hit the ball in a load trajectory, And a 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:28.679 lot of architects don't even think about people that hit 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:31.560 it on a load trajectory until they get in their 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:35.120 senior years and suddenly wish they had thought about that morey. 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:40.920 It seems like it's that's the playing the game as 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:43.040 a as a lady. When I watch like my mother 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:46.080 or like the rare time that my wife goes out, 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:48.439 is it's just such a different game. It's so much 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:54.440 harder for them. But here's here's a good question. Ben 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:58.360 Vanna wants to know how important are drawing skills and 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:00.560 becoming a golf course architect. 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:04.040 If drawing skills were really important, I would have never 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:07.280 been able to get a job. I mean, you know, 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:09.080 I can draw like a play in view of a 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.880 golf hall. Okay, but you know, if you wanted me 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:14.839 to do a rendering of what it was going to 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:17.400 look like, I'd be hopeless at that I took. I 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:20.800 had to take one drawing course in college for my 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.320 landscape architecture degree, and that I'm sure that was the 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:27.200 lowest grade I gotten in three years of landscape architecture. 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:30.960 And I used to be very defensive about it. But 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:33.120 but I've you know, I've learned over the years a 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:36.840 different you know, everybody has a different way of communicating. 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:40.880 And but the thing that I've learned the most is, 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:45.800 you know, to me, golf course, architecture is it's more 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.360 sculpture than drawing. I mean, you're working in three dimensions, 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:53.400 and the third dimension really matters. You know, whether the 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:57.600 whether the the green is pitching away from the line 0:11:57.600 --> 0:11:59.680 of play a little bit, or whether there's a crown 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:02.960 there has a huge effect on things, and you have 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:05.840 to be able to visualize that. So I don't think, 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:07.880 you know, I've never thought that the guys that just 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:11.240 strictly draw plans and then hand that to somebody to 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:16.840 try to build. You know, Michelangelo wouldn't do a sculpture 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:19.280 by starting in two D and drawing a plan of 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:21.560 it and then going to three D. He just went 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.079 straight to three D when it was time to do sculpture. 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:28.560 And you know, that's kind of how we build golf courses. Plus, 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:29.239 I can't. 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:34.160 Draw whenever I see one of those contests, for like, hey, raw, 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:37.280 draw a golf hole and be to enter the contest. 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:41.520 I'm a horrendous drawer, Like I can't write. My handwriting's horrible. 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:45.040 My drawing skills are terrible, and I always I'm always like, well, 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:47.839 that's just I'm not gonna even take the time because 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:50.679 I don't want my thoughts to even be what's on paper, 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:53.280 because it's not representative of what I'm thinking about at all. 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:55.640 Like I'm not that's how bad I am at drawing, 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:59.360 but it I imagine a lot of stuff happens in the 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:02.079 ground too, Like that you have to make some minor tweaks, 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:05.439 Like you can't just go off of a drawing and 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:06.480 get the result. 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:07.960 You know, there's very rare. 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:11.400 I don't think. Yeah, at the end of the day, 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:15.960 I don't think anybody is that good at drawing to 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:19.840 get exactly what they want just from a drawing. I mean, 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:25.520 every great golf course I've ever seen was built by 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:29.080 people out in the out in the ground who understood golf. 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.520 And you know, we're really paying attention to all those 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:36.720 details when they were building it. So I'm not saying 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.240 it can't be done. I just don't know if a 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:41.600 place where it has been done. 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:45.200 Yeah, with technology, who knows. Eventually it might get to 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:46.240 somewhere with that. 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:50.440 Well, the day, you know, the day that the day 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:53.760 that everybody is able to like do a golf course 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.280 entirely in three D virtual reality so they can just 0:13:57.400 --> 0:13:59.760 translate it out to the ground, will also be the 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:01.480 day you don't need to go out on the ground 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:03.800 anywhere because you could just stay in your house and 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:07.280 do it on the virtual reality. So I'm hoping that's 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:08.280 still a long way off. 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:11.240 Have you have you ever seen those like that? I 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:11.560 get it. 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:13.720 I have a bunch of readers that play this like 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.120 video game that's like a golf course design. You can 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:19.360 design the golf course. It's called like the golf club 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:21.880 or something. Have you ever tried doing that thing? 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:25.800 I tried a little with the really early ones, like 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:29.440 fifteen twenty years ago. No, I haven't. I haven't touched 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:31.240 any of the latest stuff. Like I said, I'm scared 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:33.800 of it. I mean, at some point, it's not just 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.760 gonna put golf course architects out of business. If they're 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:38.960 really good at it, it'll put golf out of business. 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:41.600 And that would be a sad day for me. Yeah. 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:46.120 And like with the screen golf popularity in Southeast Asia, 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.840 it I don't know. Screen golf's gonna come to America eventually, 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:52.920 and it might take some of the popular It might grow. 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:53.520 The game though, too. 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:55.040 That's true, it might. 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:57.080 There's there's a give and take. 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:02.920 Here's a good question, so, mister asks, golf is full 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:07.600 of counterintuitions. So you know, hit down to make the 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.920 ball go up, for one, if your ball's going right, 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:14.160 swing right to make it go left. Is there anything 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.360 in architecture that you found is counterintuitive? 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:21.600 Oh, that's not a one oh one question. You should 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:23.800 say that for the three to oh one class. 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:26.680 I know it. It was such a good question. 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:30.920 I think there are a bunch of things that are 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:34.120 counterintuitive about good golf course architecture. And I'm trying to 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:49.120 think where to start with that. Well, I guess the 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:55.000 first counterintuitive thing to me is that what people you know, 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:56.920 one of the words I don't like to use in 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:02.240 golf course architecture is fair. And the reason is fair 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:07.440 changes for every single player. You know, you and I 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.680 don't play the same game. You hit it forty yards 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:15.800 farther than me on a bad day. So you know, 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:20.520 you might think that a hole is fair because you're 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:23.600 hitting a seven iron into a green that takes you 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:26.000 a good shot to get a seven iron and hold it, 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:30.520 and so you would call that hole fair. And then 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.320 I would be looking at that green with a four 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:35.800 or five iron in my hands and not quite the 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:40.280 same ability as you, and I would pronounce it unfair 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.720 because even if I carry the bunker in front, I'm 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:45.320 going to have a hard time hold in the green. 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:52.880 So you know, and that that that just keeps sliding 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.880 down the scale for every different golfer. Every different golfer 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:59.280 has different abilities, so you can't really say that something's 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:03.600 fair for everyone. And and the but the tricky part is, 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:07.400 you know a lot of architects, especially the ones who 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.240 are good players, you know, they think of everything in 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:12.680 terms of fair and trying to make it work out 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:15.879 well for them, and they don't realize that they're making 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:19.920 that makes everything work out just wrong for somebody who's 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:23.679 twenty five yards shorter than them or twenty five yards 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:25.760 longer than them. 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.200 So I I think one of the toughest things is 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.120 thinking For me thinking backwards. I always try and think 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:35.880 about like my dad or my mom and how they play. 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:38.080 And then you know different. 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.400 You have to think about every type of player when 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:41.439 you're designing a course. 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:45.400 You should think about every type of player when you're 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:48.280 designing a course. It's hard to do. I mean it's 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:51.160 you know, when you when you've got a real wrinkly 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:57.040 piece of land. You know, if you're hitting over a valley, 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:03.240 trying to find tease for every level of player that 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:07.240 that you know they can get to the top on 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.000 the other side is tough to do. You kind of 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:14.960 like you know when you're laying out of course. You know, 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:16.800 if you want, if you want to require a two 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:19.879 hundred and twenty yard T shot, a pretty good T 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:23.000 shot to get over that valley, you know, you'll play 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:25.040 around with the angle of the hole. You know, the 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:27.760 valley might be one hundred yards across on a straight line, 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:29.800 but if you turn the hole on a diagonal, you 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:31.720 can make it so it's two hundred or two twenty 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:35.679 or whatever you want. The problem is, then when you 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:37.760 try to make it work for a one hundred and 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:41.520 fifty yard carry, you know, you can, you can move 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:43.400 the tee up the one side so you're hitting more 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:46.480 straight across, but then you wind up getting to the 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:48.520 point where you're just hitting straight across the fairway and 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:51.320 out the other side. You know. So the the angle 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:55.000 that you take for whether you're planning the golf course 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:57.600 from the back T first or the middle T first, 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:00.600 you know, kind of makes it harder to to put 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:05.560 the other t's in the right place. And ninety five 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.320 percent of golf courses they're designed from the back tees first, 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:11.719 so the forward t's are the ones where the problems 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:12.080 show up. 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:18.320 I imagine that T box placement is like, that's something 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.320 I never think about with when it comes to architecture. 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:23.639 Is that something that like a lot of like a 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:25.840 lot of thought goes into from your. 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:29.440 On Actually I think probably not enough thought goes into 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:34.119 T box placement for the middle and forward tees. You know, 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:38.280 a lot of people just put it a certain percentage 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:40.680 of distance, operate a certain number of yards up from 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:44.439 the from the back tees, and call it good. But 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:46.680 you know, when you're dealing with a piece of land 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:49.800 that has undulation to it, there's a lot more to 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:52.640 it than that. And you know, I think everybody thinks, 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:57.439 you know, most architects when they get out on site, 0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:01.879 they're thinking more about their own game than about everyone else. 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:05.720 You know, you try to think about everyone else, but 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:08.800 but you visualize the shots that you can hit. So 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:13.000 it's pretty hard to make yourself back off and think. 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:14.880 You know, I used to think. I used to think 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:17.400 about my mom a lot and knowing that she could 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:20.120 you know, I mean, I only saw her play later 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:22.600 in life, and she barely got the ball airborne a 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:25.639 lot of the time. But that's sort of easy to visualize, 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:27.679 you know. I can go back to that pretty easily 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:30.159 and think, now, there's no way my mom could get 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.399 around this. You know, it's much harder to think about 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:37.000 the the senior player who is still good but hits 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:39.320 the ball low and only carries it one hundred and 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:43.520 thirty or forty yards, and what works for them. 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:47.280 Car for the course wants to know what is the 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:52.359 most difficult obstacle when designing a course A poor soil 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:58.400 b bland topography See overbearing owner or d. 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:03.920 Other Oh, repeat the question again. 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:07.240 Because the most difficult obstacle when designing a course. 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:23.920 Okay, I remember the three options, you know, I wrote 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:29.320 right in the front of my little red book. An 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:31.560 old guy that used to work in the construction business 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:34.040 named David Postalwage, who was one of my first bosses 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:38.760 when I worked for the Dies, said that, you know, 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:43.680 everything comes back to the land, the owner, and the money, 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:46.640 and you really, you know, to do something really good, 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:48.879 you've got to get all three of them right. So 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:53.760 the soils are the land and the topography and the 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:59.280 topography and of the two, you know you can you 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:04.919 can fix those if you spend enough money. But you know, 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:07.560 I think the soils are the harder thing to fix. 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:10.200 I mean, I'm not a big A lot of these 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:14.399 new courses build out west and overseas. They'll like truck 0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:17.240 in a foot of sand to sand cap all the 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:22.720 fairways fifty acres of grass. You know, it's hard to 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:24.640 make the numbers where. You know, it's hard to build 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:28.000 a course that is profitable when you spend that much, 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:33.440 you know, trying to create perfect conditions on a harsh site. 0:22:33.920 --> 0:22:37.320 So I think that would be my first choice overbearing owner. 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:42.240 You know, I try to use my sixth sense so 0:22:42.280 --> 0:22:44.760 I don't wind up working for those guys and just 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:48.000 declining a job like that. But you know, you do. 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:49.879 You have to have a you have to have a 0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:53.600 good relationship with the client for it to work. And 0:22:54.119 --> 0:22:56.560 I get so I guess the answer to that problem 0:22:56.640 --> 0:22:59.720 is you just have to know the ones to walk 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:01.880 away from that you don't think you could work with. 0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:05.080 And I've certainly walked away from a few potential jobs 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:07.120 because I just didn't think the client and I would 0:23:07.119 --> 0:23:08.040 be on the same page. 0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:14.200 Yeah, it's the uh I did a bunker. I built 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:18.520 a bunker this summer. And you quickly realize when you 0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:22.399 hit clay and it's really hard to dig in clay. 0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:25.119 It's like I was thinking about it. It's like when it 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:28.080 was like sandy and nice loose soil, it was easy, 0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:31.160 and you hit clay, it's like, oh, this is really hard. 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:34.000 To work with no doubt. I mean, and you know, honestly, 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:35.920 one of the keys to my success in the golf 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:39.399 business is that I've done so many projects on sand 0:23:40.040 --> 0:23:44.359 because it is so much easier. You know, I've the 0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:46.639 best analogy that I could ever come up with for 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:49.399 somebody is you know, if you were like in the 0:23:49.440 --> 0:23:54.560 printing business, when desktop publishing came along, it was a 0:23:54.600 --> 0:23:57.359 whole different world because you could actually like see on 0:23:57.400 --> 0:23:59.280 a computer screen exactly what was going to be on 0:23:59.320 --> 0:24:01.600 a page. Before that, you had to make all these 0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:04.680 allowances for you know, how the spacing was going to 0:24:04.760 --> 0:24:07.280 work out, and how much room to leave at the 0:24:07.320 --> 0:24:09.600 top and bottom, and you never really saw the finished 0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:13.000 page until somebody put it in a typeset or put 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:18.800 it together. You know. In golf course architecture, when you're 0:24:18.800 --> 0:24:22.159 building in clay, you know, once you've kind of shaped 0:24:22.160 --> 0:24:23.840 the green the way you want, there's all these other 0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:25.879 steps that still have to happen. You know, you have 0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:29.920 to put trench in, drainage underneath, and then put a 0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:32.119 gravel layer in, and then put a sand layer in, 0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:37.280 and presumably all those layers are exactly right and flowing together, 0:24:37.400 --> 0:24:39.639 so what you built on the bottom winds up on 0:24:39.720 --> 0:24:43.199 the top. But it's really hard to do. There's a 0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:46.040 lot more steps in places where things can go wrong. 0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:50.720 It's harder to visualize the first step and get it right, 0:24:51.359 --> 0:24:54.119 you know, And if you do something on the ground 0:24:54.119 --> 0:24:55.760 floor of that and then you get up to the 0:24:55.760 --> 0:24:57.879 top and you're like, oh, that doesn't look too good. 0:24:58.880 --> 0:25:01.520 You're kind of stuck. You're not supposed to like change 0:25:01.560 --> 0:25:03.520 the profile of the green in order to make something 0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:09.480 work better. You know, in sand, it's only one layer. 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:14.280 You shape and you're done. You dig a bunker and 0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:17.080 you stand it in and try to visualize the shot 0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:19.440 that you're going to play. And if you think, now 0:25:19.480 --> 0:25:21.320 I want it a little deeper, you go back and 0:25:21.440 --> 0:25:23.400 dig out a few more scoops and lower it another 0:25:23.520 --> 0:25:27.240 six inches. Whereas in clay, you know, you've got to 0:25:27.280 --> 0:25:29.520 stand in that bunker and visualize, Okay, there's going to 0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:31.160 be a liner in this thing, and then there's gonna 0:25:31.200 --> 0:25:32.879 be sand on top of that, and there's gonna be 0:25:32.920 --> 0:25:35.960 topsail on the face of the bunker, and you really 0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:38.399 don't have as clear a feel for the shot that 0:25:38.400 --> 0:25:39.960 you're going to have to hit out of it when 0:25:40.000 --> 0:25:41.360 it all gets put back together. 0:25:42.200 --> 0:25:46.480 Besides, like the layers, do you think it settles any differently, 0:25:46.880 --> 0:25:49.760 like over time with all like the gravel and everything, 0:25:49.840 --> 0:25:50.640 or is it is you. 0:25:50.560 --> 0:25:54.520 Know, I've I've heard people talk about green settling when 0:25:54.520 --> 0:25:56.720 we when we do consulting work they say, oh, that 0:25:56.880 --> 0:26:00.439 green's settled, and usually I just think, well, no, the 0:26:00.440 --> 0:26:02.800 green's faster, and it's just you know, the ball's getting 0:26:02.800 --> 0:26:05.239 away from you more because the green is faster, and 0:26:05.320 --> 0:26:09.040 you think something else must have happened here. But it's 0:26:09.080 --> 0:26:11.160 possible if you're building out it, if you build out 0:26:11.160 --> 0:26:13.520 of like you know, if you put five or six 0:26:13.520 --> 0:26:18.400 feet of phil to build a green and you don't 0:26:18.800 --> 0:26:21.400 compact it and run over with the equipment a lot 0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:25.639 at the start and it's clay and not sand, Sand 0:26:26.000 --> 0:26:28.480 gets pretty compacted pretty fast as much as it's going 0:26:28.560 --> 0:26:31.760 to It's possible some kinds of soil will settle a 0:26:31.760 --> 0:26:34.520 little bit. You know. I've never seen it much on 0:26:34.520 --> 0:26:36.080 my courses, but we don't build a lot of things 0:26:36.119 --> 0:26:38.160 out of phil, you know, I try not to put 0:26:38.240 --> 0:26:41.200 phil at a green site, so I personally I have almost 0:26:41.240 --> 0:26:43.200 never seen it on my own courses. I can think 0:26:43.240 --> 0:26:46.240 of exactly one hole where I think something's settled a 0:26:46.240 --> 0:26:49.240 little bit. But maybe it's more common than I think. 0:26:50.080 --> 0:26:54.920 Yeah, I might be just an old lives tale can 0:26:55.000 --> 0:26:57.639 hidecki Winn wants to know if you pay attention to 0:26:57.720 --> 0:27:00.040 par when you're designing a golf course. 0:27:01.640 --> 0:27:04.760 I'd like to say no that I don't pay attention 0:27:04.880 --> 0:27:09.480 to par. The it'd be more fair to say I 0:27:09.600 --> 0:27:13.520 try not to let par drive all my decisions. Like 0:27:13.560 --> 0:27:19.800 I know some architects that if they've built more that 0:27:19.960 --> 0:27:22.040 if they've built two par fours in a row, they 0:27:22.040 --> 0:27:25.600 are uncomfortable with doing a third. They think they think 0:27:25.640 --> 0:27:27.439 it must be time for a par three or a 0:27:27.440 --> 0:27:31.320 par five. And I have to, you know, I just 0:27:31.960 --> 0:27:33.719 you know, when I traveled around when I was in 0:27:33.800 --> 0:27:38.399 college and saw these great courses, you know, I've seen 0:27:38.520 --> 0:27:41.200 so many of those kind of rules be broken, and 0:27:41.520 --> 0:27:43.679 you know, still thought the golf course was great that 0:27:43.760 --> 0:27:46.600 I kind of threw a lot of that out, you know. 0:27:46.720 --> 0:27:50.280 So I'm trying to think of a good example. There's 0:27:50.400 --> 0:27:55.560 there's a course in England called Saunton that's a very 0:27:55.560 --> 0:27:57.760 good course out in the west of England, a links course, 0:27:58.080 --> 0:28:02.439 and I think they changed what I think they changed 0:28:02.440 --> 0:28:07.760 the second hole to a par five. But Sauntan, the 0:28:07.800 --> 0:28:11.400 first fourteen holes were like it had four par fours 0:28:11.560 --> 0:28:14.760 and then a par three, and it's seven more par 0:28:14.880 --> 0:28:18.720 fours and then a par three, and it had like 0:28:18.760 --> 0:28:22.280 two par fives at the end to be to wind 0:28:22.359 --> 0:28:24.320 up at par seventy one or something. But it was 0:28:24.400 --> 0:28:26.600 like it was kind of an interesting experience playing it 0:28:26.600 --> 0:28:28.159 for the first time. It's like, wow, is there ever 0:28:28.200 --> 0:28:31.399 going to be a par five or is there It 0:28:31.400 --> 0:28:33.600 seems like we've gone a long way without a par three. 0:28:34.200 --> 0:28:38.520 But I don't have a problem with that if that's 0:28:38.720 --> 0:28:40.600 you know, if that's what you feel like makes for 0:28:40.640 --> 0:28:44.000 the best golf courses. You know, at the end of 0:28:44.080 --> 0:28:46.440 the day, though, you know, when I get a routing 0:28:46.520 --> 0:28:52.120 plan kind of three quarters done, yes, I look and 0:28:52.160 --> 0:28:55.960 if it's par seventy four or it's par sixty nine, 0:28:56.880 --> 0:28:59.400 you know, realistically, I've got to think is the client 0:28:59.480 --> 0:29:01.960 going to be okay with this? Or you know, what 0:29:02.040 --> 0:29:04.760 are my options to make it not that way? But 0:29:04.840 --> 0:29:08.200 I try to follow my eye first and then think, okay, 0:29:08.200 --> 0:29:11.800 this is too weird. And absolutely the best example of 0:29:11.800 --> 0:29:18.120 that when we were outing Pacific Dunes. I'd been struggling 0:29:18.160 --> 0:29:20.400 around trying to put the pieces together, and I had 0:29:20.440 --> 0:29:22.960 most of the holes figured out, but there were a 0:29:23.040 --> 0:29:27.840 couple places. My last version changed a couple of holes, 0:29:28.360 --> 0:29:34.600 but it also changed the sequence pretty completely. You know, 0:29:36.120 --> 0:29:39.240 one version you would have been going you would have 0:29:39.360 --> 0:29:42.760 played not all the coastal holes in order, but pretty 0:29:42.800 --> 0:29:45.880 close to that instead of getting to them and away 0:29:45.880 --> 0:29:51.120 from them. So when we we walked through the routing, 0:29:52.920 --> 0:29:56.600 the final routing one morning, and we were going to 0:29:56.680 --> 0:30:02.080 walk through the previous routing afterwards, everybody loved the routing 0:30:02.120 --> 0:30:04.600 that we had so much that it's like, we're done. 0:30:04.800 --> 0:30:07.720 That's the routing. And we went in and had lunch, 0:30:07.760 --> 0:30:09.760 and it's kind of everybody in a good mood. And 0:30:09.800 --> 0:30:12.760 I was sitting across from Mike Kaiser and I started 0:30:12.760 --> 0:30:15.479 thinking about the scorecard for it, because i'd only, you know, 0:30:15.520 --> 0:30:18.280 figured out this new sequence like the night before, and 0:30:18.320 --> 0:30:20.960 I hadn't done a scorecard or anything. So I just 0:30:21.040 --> 0:30:23.520 started jotting it down on a napkin because I realized 0:30:23.560 --> 0:30:30.040 it was going to be pretty weird. And you know, 0:30:30.200 --> 0:30:39.360 there are seven par fours on the front nine, the 0:30:39.360 --> 0:30:42.040 third holes a part five, fifth holes a par three, 0:30:42.400 --> 0:30:44.640 all the other holes are part fours, and then the 0:30:44.680 --> 0:30:46.920 back nine you start with two part threes in a row, 0:30:47.720 --> 0:30:50.560 then a part five, and then fourteens a part three, 0:30:50.800 --> 0:30:54.400 fifteens apart five, seventeen's apart three, and eighteen's apart five. 0:30:54.920 --> 0:30:57.440 So there's four Part three's in the back nine and 0:30:57.520 --> 0:31:02.760 three part five and only two par fours, and I thought, damn, 0:31:04.120 --> 0:31:06.640 I've never seen a great course that got away with that. 0:31:07.520 --> 0:31:12.280 So I slid that napkin over to mister Kaiser and said, 0:31:12.640 --> 0:31:17.720 are you comfortable with this? And he said, if you'd 0:31:17.720 --> 0:31:20.440 just showed me that before we went out for that walk, 0:31:20.480 --> 0:31:26.320 I just said no. But we all walked it and 0:31:26.400 --> 0:31:30.320 we all thought it was great, So I'm comfortable with it. 0:31:31.560 --> 0:31:33.840 And that's you know, a lot of people make up 0:31:33.840 --> 0:31:35.920 their minds. You've heard the saying don't judge a book 0:31:35.920 --> 0:31:38.400 by the cover. A lot of people make a lot 0:31:38.440 --> 0:31:41.400 of decisions about golf courses by looking at the scorecard, 0:31:41.440 --> 0:31:43.960 and I just think that's the dumbest thing you can do. 0:31:44.560 --> 0:31:46.120 You know, you just got to go out and look 0:31:46.160 --> 0:31:50.080 at what's out there on the ground and how the 0:31:50.120 --> 0:31:52.440 golf course takes you around the ground, and that's the 0:31:52.440 --> 0:31:55.920 most important thing. If it doesn't fit precisely into the 0:31:55.960 --> 0:32:00.560 box of Part thirty six on each side, who cares? 0:32:00.560 --> 0:32:01.800 As long as it's good. 0:32:02.680 --> 0:32:05.560 I feel like if you once there is a great 0:32:05.600 --> 0:32:07.840 course that has a setup like that, it's more likely 0:32:07.920 --> 0:32:12.240 to have more obscure you know, formations of scorecards. Also, 0:32:12.840 --> 0:32:16.040 you know, it usually takes one thought leader to you know, 0:32:16.240 --> 0:32:19.760 one you know example, to lead the way to more. 0:32:19.720 --> 0:32:22.320 No doubt, no doubt. I mean, golf is a game 0:32:22.360 --> 0:32:24.840 of follow the leader, like in you know, in Asia. 0:32:25.400 --> 0:32:28.080 I did a course in China. Sadly it never opened 0:32:28.120 --> 0:32:31.000 because they changed their minds on allowing golf in China. 0:32:31.520 --> 0:32:39.880 But you know, in Japan, in China, in Korea, par 0:32:40.040 --> 0:32:43.320 seventy two is almost like a religion. It's like they 0:32:43.320 --> 0:32:46.239 are so uncomfortable with the idea that you could do 0:32:46.280 --> 0:32:51.560 anything else that you know, it's maybe one of the 0:32:51.560 --> 0:32:53.840 reasons they don't call me more about going over there, 0:32:53.880 --> 0:32:56.600 because I you know, that's so far from my mind 0:32:56.600 --> 0:33:00.520 when I'm trying to design something. But you can just 0:33:00.600 --> 0:33:04.880 see the level of discomfort with a client like, oh, 0:33:05.000 --> 0:33:07.320 I don't know, you know, that's going to be really 0:33:07.360 --> 0:33:10.600 hard to sell. And you know, it's strange to me 0:33:10.640 --> 0:33:15.560 because they don't you know, I guess they feel that 0:33:15.600 --> 0:33:18.000 way because they don't know that much else about golf, 0:33:18.520 --> 0:33:21.400 so they do know this one thing that it's supposed 0:33:21.440 --> 0:33:26.400 to be par seventy two. That's what quality is. You know, 0:33:26.960 --> 0:33:29.320 the more you know, the less important that gets to be. 0:33:30.240 --> 0:33:34.080 It also seems like there's like, if you know just enough, 0:33:34.160 --> 0:33:36.120 you're almost the most dangerous person. 0:33:37.040 --> 0:33:43.240 Like sure, sure, there's some superintendents that think that about me, 0:33:43.400 --> 0:33:45.640 that I know just enough about turf to be a 0:33:46.360 --> 0:33:49.200 be a real problem. 0:33:49.720 --> 0:33:52.160 So it kind of leads right into we got a 0:33:52.200 --> 0:33:55.440 lot of questions about routing and talking about this, and 0:33:55.640 --> 0:34:00.840 it is a natural transition. Blair Bromley asked, when you 0:34:00.880 --> 0:34:04.239 first visit a site for a potential project, what's the 0:34:04.240 --> 0:34:08.840 first thing that comes into your mind. 0:34:10.760 --> 0:34:14.319 I just did that twice in the last five days. 0:34:14.480 --> 0:34:17.080 I was in Spain looking at a couple potential projects, 0:34:17.880 --> 0:34:22.080 and I hadn't Usually I try to have a map beforehand, 0:34:22.360 --> 0:34:23.920 because when you go out on a site for the 0:34:23.960 --> 0:34:27.520 first time, if I take somebody with me that's not 0:34:27.640 --> 0:34:31.120 used to doing it, you know, without golf holes on 0:34:31.200 --> 0:34:35.239 the land, it seems so much more vast, and it 0:34:35.280 --> 0:34:37.880 really is. You know, a golf course takes up at 0:34:37.920 --> 0:34:40.520 a minimum one hundred and fifty acres and sometimes we're 0:34:40.520 --> 0:34:42.959 looking at hundreds of acres of ground trying to figure 0:34:42.960 --> 0:34:47.000 out where the holes go, and you know, the sense 0:34:47.040 --> 0:34:49.560 of scale, you know, even a simple part four hole 0:34:49.640 --> 0:34:51.640 is a quarter mile long, and when you get out 0:34:51.640 --> 0:34:55.040 there and there's no fair way and no scale, it 0:34:55.080 --> 0:34:57.320 looks a quarter mile long. It looks like a long 0:34:57.360 --> 0:35:02.520 way out there, and your eye tricks you. It's you know, 0:35:02.560 --> 0:35:06.320 I've the number one question I'm asked when I'm walking 0:35:06.360 --> 0:35:08.880 a golf course with somebody in the dirt, is is 0:35:08.920 --> 0:35:11.560 this a par five? Because they all look like par five's. 0:35:11.880 --> 0:35:13.520 You know, a three hundred and fifty yard old looks 0:35:13.560 --> 0:35:17.600 like a par five to the average person until you 0:35:17.680 --> 0:35:20.480 get a flag out there or something for scale that 0:35:20.520 --> 0:35:22.399 they can see how the scale of a golf hole 0:35:22.440 --> 0:35:27.560 fits it. You know, I'm different when I go out 0:35:27.560 --> 0:35:29.160 on a piece of land for the first time. I'm 0:35:29.200 --> 0:35:34.160 like looking for the problems, like where's the corner that 0:35:34.200 --> 0:35:36.399 if I get into that corner, I can't get out, 0:35:37.160 --> 0:35:42.760 you know, because ultimately the client, you know, the client 0:35:42.920 --> 0:35:46.360 wants to know if this is potentially a great course, 0:35:47.320 --> 0:35:51.440 and I want to know is this a job I 0:35:51.480 --> 0:35:55.280 want to take? And so it's kind of like, Okay, 0:35:55.320 --> 0:35:57.600 is there something here that's going to prevent this from 0:35:57.680 --> 0:36:03.040 getting to where everybody wants it to be. The other 0:36:03.080 --> 0:36:06.239 thing that you look for because you know, I rely 0:36:06.320 --> 0:36:09.040 on topo maps quite a bit to work with the routing. 0:36:09.200 --> 0:36:10.800 But there are things that don't show up while on 0:36:10.840 --> 0:36:14.520 the map, you know, like trees and vegetation, Like if 0:36:14.560 --> 0:36:17.720 there's this, you know, trees will be marked on the map. 0:36:18.360 --> 0:36:21.560 But they you know, they all look alike on the map. 0:36:21.600 --> 0:36:25.080 And obviously some are huge, beautiful oak trees and some 0:36:25.160 --> 0:36:29.000 are little scrubby things. So you know, picking out the 0:36:29.000 --> 0:36:32.600 ones that are great looking things that you wouldn't want 0:36:32.600 --> 0:36:35.480 to cut down, and trying to make those features instead 0:36:35.480 --> 0:36:38.000 of getting right in the way of something is really important, 0:36:38.360 --> 0:36:40.480 So you start trying to note where those things are. 0:36:41.080 --> 0:36:42.520 And then the other thing that doesn't show up on 0:36:42.560 --> 0:36:45.680 a map is the views. Like you know, if you've 0:36:46.160 --> 0:36:48.240 if you've got a course that's next to the water, 0:36:49.239 --> 0:36:51.680 that's not hard to visualize on the map. You know, 0:36:51.760 --> 0:36:55.239 you're you're just looking out to the water. But if 0:36:55.239 --> 0:37:00.000 you've got like both pluses and minuses, if you've got 0:37:00.080 --> 0:37:02.560 a beautiful church steeple, and you'd like to have a 0:37:02.560 --> 0:37:06.399 whole play toward that that maybe not beyond the map, 0:37:06.440 --> 0:37:08.839 and you have to have a sense of where it is. 0:37:09.640 --> 0:37:11.560 By the same token, if you've got a power line 0:37:11.600 --> 0:37:14.200 going past. You know, you don't want to be playing 0:37:14.280 --> 0:37:16.640 right at one of those towers. I mean it's you 0:37:16.680 --> 0:37:19.440 know a lot of properties have power lines somewhere around 0:37:19.480 --> 0:37:23.480 them and it doesn't really bother the golfers experience very much. 0:37:23.560 --> 0:37:26.080 As long as you're not playing right at one of 0:37:26.120 --> 0:37:30.560 those towers, then they can't help but notice it, or 0:37:30.600 --> 0:37:33.040 playing from under one, or playing from under one. 0:37:34.320 --> 0:37:38.080 So you you mentioned you know owners and you know, 0:37:38.120 --> 0:37:40.759 whether it be an owner or developer, always wants to 0:37:40.760 --> 0:37:43.960 know if it's a truly a great course. Do you 0:37:44.000 --> 0:37:46.680 do you have a sense, like with some of your courses, 0:37:46.719 --> 0:37:49.880 have you known from like the second you got out there. 0:37:49.680 --> 0:37:51.200 It was going to be a great golf course. 0:37:51.960 --> 0:37:57.440 Yes, I've been lucky. I've worked with I've worked with 0:37:59.600 --> 0:38:04.200 a bunch to sites that could and should be great 0:38:04.280 --> 0:38:07.520 courses from the day I first laid eyes on him. 0:38:07.880 --> 0:38:11.240 Pacific Dunes obviously, even though some of it was covered 0:38:11.239 --> 0:38:14.000 by gorse. I mean, Pacific Dunes, you knew right away 0:38:14.320 --> 0:38:15.960 there were going to be a bunch of great holes. 0:38:16.000 --> 0:38:18.160 But there were pieces of it you couldn't really visualize 0:38:18.160 --> 0:38:23.520 because the gorse was so thick, you know, But you know, 0:38:23.560 --> 0:38:26.760 you get to the level like Terry Edy in New Zealand, 0:38:27.560 --> 0:38:31.040 which turned out great. You know, from day one or 0:38:31.120 --> 0:38:34.839 day two, our client was asking us, do you think 0:38:34.880 --> 0:38:37.000 this could be one of the top fifty courses in 0:38:37.040 --> 0:38:40.440 the world. And we're standing in the middle of a 0:38:40.520 --> 0:38:43.120 pine forest that somebody planted over the top of these 0:38:43.200 --> 0:38:46.000 dunes and you can't see a hundred yards. So I've 0:38:46.000 --> 0:38:48.400 got is a map and I know there's a great 0:38:48.400 --> 0:38:51.759 ocean view out there, and I'm like just biting my 0:38:51.840 --> 0:38:55.880 lip because you know, I don't think he wanted to 0:38:55.920 --> 0:38:58.120 try to do the golf course unless I thought it 0:38:58.160 --> 0:39:00.759 could be that good, and that it's a huge leap 0:39:00.800 --> 0:39:03.560 of faith, especially on a site where you're not you know, 0:39:03.640 --> 0:39:06.480 I said, vegetation is an important feature of the golf course, 0:39:06.880 --> 0:39:08.600 and we didn't have any to work with. I mean, 0:39:08.880 --> 0:39:10.600 none of those pine trees were going to stay in 0:39:10.600 --> 0:39:13.640 the finished product. You know, they're all planted in rows. 0:39:13.680 --> 0:39:15.640 So even the places you didn't want a golf hole, 0:39:16.080 --> 0:39:18.840 they looked really artificial and awkward. So we're going to 0:39:18.880 --> 0:39:24.319 replace everything with natural vegetation. So staying at the beginning, yeah, 0:39:24.400 --> 0:39:26.400 I think that could be the top fifty in the 0:39:26.400 --> 0:39:30.239 world is kind of a crazy goal. But you know 0:39:30.360 --> 0:39:33.840 what I said to him was, you know, all I 0:39:33.880 --> 0:39:36.960 know is every time I get an ocean front site, 0:39:37.160 --> 0:39:40.239 everybody loves it. And you got that big ocean front 0:39:40.280 --> 0:39:42.200 right there, so I think you got a shot. 0:39:42.760 --> 0:39:47.560 Yeah, it's it's that from everything I've heard, that one 0:39:47.680 --> 0:39:53.440 is a special place. Putting together a golf course is 0:39:53.520 --> 0:39:56.440 kind of like a puzzle. And from what I gather 0:39:56.840 --> 0:39:57.320 very much. 0:39:58.840 --> 0:40:01.120 So where do you you draw the line? 0:40:01.120 --> 0:40:03.000 And this is from Philip Johnson, where do you draw 0:40:03.000 --> 0:40:05.560 the line between having the best hole on the property 0:40:05.760 --> 0:40:07.800 and having the better overall routing. 0:40:13.760 --> 0:40:15.879 You know, you've got to get You've got to get 0:40:15.880 --> 0:40:18.360 a little feel for the client about what they're after. 0:40:19.800 --> 0:40:22.920 You know, there there may be some kinds of clients, 0:40:23.920 --> 0:40:28.560 not the typical ones that I go to, that you know, 0:40:28.680 --> 0:40:30.920 all they want is the one great hole that's a 0:40:30.920 --> 0:40:33.640 hook for the place. They're not really thinking they're going 0:40:33.680 --> 0:40:35.600 to build a great golf course. But you know, like 0:40:35.640 --> 0:40:37.440 there's a lot of courses in Hawaii that have the 0:40:37.520 --> 0:40:40.000 one great part of three over the ocean, and then 0:40:40.040 --> 0:40:42.160 everything else is inland away from the ocean. They put 0:40:42.239 --> 0:40:46.640 houses along the ocean, but if your goal is to 0:40:47.000 --> 0:40:48.840 you know, if the client's goal is to build a 0:40:48.840 --> 0:40:52.560 great golf course, you have to be willing to throw 0:40:52.640 --> 0:40:55.719 out a really good hole that just doesn't fit. Or 0:40:57.160 --> 0:40:59.759 you know, I can build this great hole, but I 0:40:59.800 --> 0:41:01.480 know if I do the hole after, it's going to 0:41:01.560 --> 0:41:07.080 stink because you're not you know, you can get away 0:41:07.080 --> 0:41:11.600 with the whole after it being kind of blah because 0:41:12.000 --> 0:41:14.799 everybody's still coasting off the high of just having played 0:41:14.840 --> 0:41:17.680 a really great hole. But if the next whole stinks, 0:41:18.719 --> 0:41:20.520 that kind of root, you know, that kind of just 0:41:20.600 --> 0:41:23.120 drives a stake through the last hole being so good. 0:41:23.920 --> 0:41:27.640 So there's a there's a balance there, and you know, 0:41:28.280 --> 0:41:31.520 I usually find a couple holes pretty quickly in the 0:41:31.600 --> 0:41:35.440 process that are really hard to give up on. But 0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:39.000 sometimes taking that one piece outs is what you have 0:41:39.080 --> 0:41:41.480 to do, and it's hard, it's hard to make yourself 0:41:41.560 --> 0:41:44.279 do it, but you know, at the end of the day, 0:41:44.280 --> 0:41:48.680 you're trying to find the best eighteen piece puzzle, not 0:41:49.000 --> 0:41:50.520 just the one cool looking piece. 0:41:51.160 --> 0:41:53.520 Yeah, because then you end up in a chase to 0:41:53.600 --> 0:41:55.560 try and figure out how to get in and out 0:41:55.640 --> 0:41:59.319 of that one spot. Well, if you have one that 0:41:59.400 --> 0:42:01.319 you just feel like you can't get rid of it 0:42:01.360 --> 0:42:02.880 probably is going to be, at the end of it 0:42:02.960 --> 0:42:04.480 a pain to get. 0:42:04.280 --> 0:42:07.400 To, right. I mean, one of the you know, I mean, 0:42:07.400 --> 0:42:11.919 there's so many things about routing that you know, even 0:42:11.960 --> 0:42:14.400 if they like give you a place for the clubhouse 0:42:14.440 --> 0:42:18.680 to be at the beginning, and you you know, now 0:42:18.680 --> 0:42:21.800 you're I mean, if you do that, you're telling me, Okay, 0:42:21.840 --> 0:42:24.359 you got to build four holes around this point right here. 0:42:25.960 --> 0:42:28.040 So you know, I want to start trying to find 0:42:28.040 --> 0:42:30.960 holes first and then see where there's a bunch of 0:42:31.000 --> 0:42:34.160 holes that come together and see if we can make 0:42:34.200 --> 0:42:37.440 the clubhouse work there. But you know, sometimes it's a 0:42:37.440 --> 0:42:40.600 building that you're going to renovate. Sometimes it's just you know, 0:42:40.719 --> 0:42:43.759 on a on a lot of projects, it's like, you know, 0:42:43.840 --> 0:42:46.400 there's one place you're going to drive into the property, 0:42:46.480 --> 0:42:48.320 and they don't want to build two extra miles a 0:42:48.400 --> 0:42:49.839 road to get over to the other side to put 0:42:49.880 --> 0:42:53.200 a clubhouse over there. So you know, the first good 0:42:53.239 --> 0:42:55.880 spot to build a clubhouse is going to be the spot, 0:42:55.920 --> 0:43:00.960 and you accept that. But the fewer us that you 0:43:01.680 --> 0:43:05.680 start with, the better, you know, the more options you 0:43:05.800 --> 0:43:09.680 have for the routing. Same with it has to return 0:43:09.719 --> 0:43:12.440 at the ninth hole. You know, that crosses out a 0:43:12.480 --> 0:43:18.040 ton of options just you know, that means you can't 0:43:18.040 --> 0:43:20.120 ever get more than five holes away from more of 0:43:20.160 --> 0:43:20.879 the clubhouses. 0:43:21.880 --> 0:43:24.560 That that's something that boggles my mind, is like why 0:43:24.560 --> 0:43:26.320 can't it stop after six holes? 0:43:26.560 --> 0:43:28.600 Like why can't it if. 0:43:29.160 --> 0:43:32.080 In some court lots of good courses, do you know 0:43:32.160 --> 0:43:35.200 there's certain places where yeah, we want a nine hole option, 0:43:35.640 --> 0:43:37.279 and we think we're going to do a lot of 0:43:37.320 --> 0:43:42.160 business that way. But you know, one of the clients 0:43:42.160 --> 0:43:44.160 that said that to me, that really wanted the ninth 0:43:44.160 --> 0:43:46.040 hole to come back to the clubhouse was Julian Robertson 0:43:46.080 --> 0:43:50.560 and Kepe Kidnappers. And I thought, nobody's coming all this 0:43:50.640 --> 0:43:59.959 way and they're gonna stop at nine or or would 0:44:00.120 --> 0:44:04.359 be angry if they had to play an extra hole 0:44:04.480 --> 0:44:07.279 before they got back to the clubhouse to leave after ten. 0:44:08.560 --> 0:44:10.759 And yet it was a really important thing to him, 0:44:10.800 --> 0:44:13.960 partly because he's a member of Shinnecok Kills, one of 0:44:14.000 --> 0:44:16.759 the great courses of the world, which conveniently comes back 0:44:16.760 --> 0:44:19.120 at the ninth hole. So we had to modify that 0:44:19.239 --> 0:44:22.160 routing a little bit to get Julian uncomfortable with it 0:44:22.200 --> 0:44:24.799 and get the club at you know, get the clubhouse, 0:44:25.080 --> 0:44:27.240 moved the clubhouse slightly to get it, so it worked 0:44:27.239 --> 0:44:30.120 with two loops A nine. 0:44:31.800 --> 0:44:36.160 Trevor Dormer asks, how have you honed your approach to 0:44:36.280 --> 0:44:44.400 routing over the years. Trevor's not a beginner. 0:44:44.760 --> 0:44:53.919 No, Trevor's not a beginner. I know his name. I'm 0:44:53.960 --> 0:44:57.319 not sure my approach is any different. It's just that 0:44:57.360 --> 0:45:00.040 you get better at it the more you practice. And 0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:02.319 you talked about routing being a puzzle, and it's just 0:45:02.400 --> 0:45:05.880 like it's just like doing the Sunday New York Times 0:45:05.880 --> 0:45:08.680 crossword puzzle. I mean, the first time that you try 0:45:08.719 --> 0:45:12.200 to do that, it just looks like a hopeless exercise 0:45:12.800 --> 0:45:14.520 that you're going to make that that you're going to 0:45:14.600 --> 0:45:18.120 get all those words and fit together and finish the 0:45:18.160 --> 0:45:22.400 whole thing. This just seems impossible. If you do it 0:45:22.440 --> 0:45:30.359 every week, you start seeing some conventions and you start seeing, oh, yeah, 0:45:30.400 --> 0:45:32.480 they have to use there's a few kind of key 0:45:32.520 --> 0:45:36.520 words that sometimes they need to use in order to 0:45:36.920 --> 0:45:39.360 you know, when you've got an odd combination of letters, 0:45:39.360 --> 0:45:41.080 there's only a certain number of words that are going 0:45:41.120 --> 0:45:44.799 to fit that. So there's there's little tricks that you 0:45:44.920 --> 0:45:47.319 learn as you go, and I'm not sure I can 0:45:47.400 --> 0:45:51.839 describe exactly what all those tricks are. But you know, 0:45:51.880 --> 0:45:54.640 when I let my associates work on a routing with me, 0:45:55.719 --> 0:45:59.040 sometimes they'll be like, they'll find a really good hole 0:45:59.120 --> 0:46:01.720 over here, and I'm just like shutting them down right away, 0:46:01.840 --> 0:46:04.319 like you're never getting back from that one. You know, 0:46:05.120 --> 0:46:07.040 It's kind of like you're going down a dead end 0:46:07.320 --> 0:46:10.080 and you're either going to have a bad hole coming 0:46:10.160 --> 0:46:17.040 back or or just you get yourself into a corner 0:46:17.120 --> 0:46:19.480 you can't you physically can't get out of. There's no 0:46:19.680 --> 0:46:23.839 room for another fair way to come back. You know, 0:46:24.560 --> 0:46:28.960 if a property is certain width, there's room for four 0:46:28.960 --> 0:46:33.760 holes play in parallel, and those holes can get tighter 0:46:33.760 --> 0:46:35.920 and tighter together, but at some point it gets a 0:46:35.920 --> 0:46:39.680 little too tight for four holes, and the next the 0:46:39.719 --> 0:46:44.320 next option is only two because you can't play out 0:46:44.400 --> 0:46:46.759 and play back and play out and never get back 0:46:46.800 --> 0:46:52.360 to the clubhouse. So, you know, you just learn to 0:46:52.480 --> 0:46:55.200 see those kinds of things on the map more quickly. 0:46:55.640 --> 0:46:59.319 As you've done it more, you're still looking for the 0:46:59.320 --> 0:47:01.759 same things. You're looking for the features that make the 0:47:01.840 --> 0:47:04.839 land special, And how can I use that as part 0:47:04.880 --> 0:47:08.759 of a golf hole. You know, the hardest part is 0:47:08.760 --> 0:47:11.440 when there's something besides golf going on. You know, I 0:47:11.440 --> 0:47:14.040 went to landscape architecture school because you couldn't go to 0:47:14.080 --> 0:47:17.759 golf course architecture school, and I did, you know, when 0:47:17.760 --> 0:47:20.360 we started, I didn't think I was going to plan 0:47:20.520 --> 0:47:25.359 resorts or you know, national parks or all the other 0:47:25.400 --> 0:47:29.840 things that landscape architects do. But it's helped me a 0:47:29.880 --> 0:47:33.160 lot in dealing with landscape architects who do the land 0:47:33.200 --> 0:47:37.120 plans for the bigger project around my golf course. And 0:47:37.239 --> 0:47:42.359 the hardest part is they're looking for all those same 0:47:42.400 --> 0:47:45.520 features that I like. They like too. They want to 0:47:45.520 --> 0:47:48.319 make the entrance road go by this point so you 0:47:48.400 --> 0:47:51.560 can see that tree with the ocean in the background, 0:47:52.880 --> 0:47:56.040 and it's a little bit of a wrestling match over 0:47:56.400 --> 0:48:02.319 who gets to use which cool things. And so the 0:48:02.400 --> 0:48:05.880 client's priorities really matter. You know, if the client is 0:48:05.920 --> 0:48:10.440 more interested in the housing or the hotel than the golf, 0:48:11.239 --> 0:48:13.879 I don't win those arguments as much. And it's harder 0:48:13.880 --> 0:48:14.920 to build a great golf course. 0:48:17.760 --> 0:48:20.680 So as like, for a beginner, if they were on 0:48:20.800 --> 0:48:23.600 to start to really what should they pay attention to 0:48:24.840 --> 0:48:28.279 about routing, Like what are maybe say a couple things 0:48:28.320 --> 0:48:30.839 that they should pay attention to when they. 0:48:30.760 --> 0:48:32.160 Play golf at a golf course. 0:48:37.280 --> 0:48:42.120 That's a hard question because I don't think. I think 0:48:42.160 --> 0:48:47.160 it's very difficult when you're out playing golf to visualize 0:48:47.200 --> 0:48:51.120 the land without a golf course. I mean, you know, 0:48:51.920 --> 0:48:54.520 it's like, you know, when you see the answer to 0:48:54.560 --> 0:48:58.840 the crossword the next day, it's hard to feel stuck. 0:49:00.120 --> 0:49:02.280 You know, you can always go look at the answer, 0:49:03.840 --> 0:49:07.359 so you don't see the options that were passing up. 0:49:08.360 --> 0:49:09.840 You know, it's really hard. I mean a lot of 0:49:09.880 --> 0:49:16.440 times people will people will make a suggestion to me 0:49:16.560 --> 0:49:18.600 of I could have changed the fifth hole and move 0:49:18.680 --> 0:49:21.840 the green over to the right, and they don't understand 0:49:21.840 --> 0:49:25.360 that anytime you make a move like that, there's a 0:49:25.680 --> 0:49:28.400 there's another move that has you know, that means the 0:49:28.440 --> 0:49:31.120 sixt has to be in a different place too, and 0:49:31.160 --> 0:49:33.399 that's the part that probably isn't going to work. So well, 0:49:33.480 --> 0:49:35.840 that's why I didn't do it the way they suggested. 0:49:37.400 --> 0:49:41.640 But to see that stuff when you've never tried to 0:49:41.719 --> 0:49:44.839 visualize the property as a whole, it is really hard 0:49:44.840 --> 0:49:48.600 to do. So, so I guess for me, you know, 0:49:48.640 --> 0:49:52.480 if if you're if you're really interested in routing, the 0:49:52.520 --> 0:49:58.919 first things to focus on are just when you play 0:49:58.920 --> 0:50:03.879 a golf course that you love, like, see see how 0:50:03.920 --> 0:50:07.040 many of the standard rules of how you should do 0:50:07.120 --> 0:50:10.640 things that it breaks? You know, try to notice those 0:50:10.680 --> 0:50:14.480 things because the more you look around, the more you 0:50:14.520 --> 0:50:19.840 find that, oh, these great courses break those rules pretty often. 0:50:20.400 --> 0:50:25.399 And you know, the fewer preconceptions you have about how 0:50:25.520 --> 0:50:28.040 you know going into how you should do it, the 0:50:28.120 --> 0:50:31.719 better you know. The more open minded you can be about, well, 0:50:31.760 --> 0:50:38.840 I could go any direction here, the more interesting you 0:50:38.920 --> 0:50:40.520 can leave it for yourself. 0:50:42.360 --> 0:50:45.759 Peter Coffee wants to know what's the toughest type of 0:50:45.840 --> 0:50:48.239 hole for you to design? Is it a par three, 0:50:48.760 --> 0:50:52.680 A short, part four, long, part four, part five, et cetera. 0:50:54.320 --> 0:50:56.759 I got the par fours down. I think those are 0:50:56.800 --> 0:50:59.960 nearly always the holes on my courses that people like 0:51:00.120 --> 0:51:05.080 the most. I mentioned earlier Part three's some people say, oh, 0:51:05.680 --> 0:51:10.319 he doesn't design great par threes. He's too He's trying 0:51:10.360 --> 0:51:12.759 to be too strategic, and we, you know, we want 0:51:12.760 --> 0:51:15.680 the part three to be just a beautiful picture post 0:51:15.680 --> 0:51:20.080 card hole surrounded by trouble. I've done that occasionally, but 0:51:20.080 --> 0:51:24.279 but I don't like to like. I mean, one of 0:51:24.320 --> 0:51:26.760 the hardest part three's in the world in my opinion, 0:51:27.600 --> 0:51:30.439 certainly the hardest one I've ever built, is this little 0:51:30.520 --> 0:51:32.760 tiny hole at barn Google Dunes. It's like one hundred 0:51:32.760 --> 0:51:36.080 and twenty yards max. It can't play into a fierce 0:51:36.120 --> 0:51:38.879 wind does a lot of the time, so it's name. 0:51:39.040 --> 0:51:40.719 Don't visualize that you're always going to be hitting a 0:51:40.760 --> 0:51:47.920 wedge to it. It's just got a tiny green and 0:51:47.960 --> 0:51:53.120 it's slightly crowned, and there there's death bunkers to the 0:51:53.200 --> 0:51:56.880 left of it, in front of it, just like you know, 0:51:57.480 --> 0:51:59.440 I think we built them eight feet deep, but with 0:51:59.480 --> 0:52:01.560 the wind on the sand out of the bunkers, they've 0:52:01.560 --> 0:52:05.080 gotten even deeper. And over the back of the tiny green, 0:52:05.080 --> 0:52:07.680 it just goes down a hill in the back into rough. 0:52:09.440 --> 0:52:12.719 But there is a bailout short and right of the green. 0:52:13.360 --> 0:52:16.520 You know, there's bunkers on the surrounding the bailout area, 0:52:16.560 --> 0:52:18.759 but there's a place that if you if you're not 0:52:18.800 --> 0:52:21.759 sure you can hit the green, there's a there's a 0:52:21.800 --> 0:52:25.200 slightly bigger area you know you actually aim just for 0:52:25.280 --> 0:52:27.080 the right edge of the green, or just off the 0:52:27.160 --> 0:52:30.279 right of the green. And if you wind up short, 0:52:30.640 --> 0:52:32.479 it's not easy to get up and down for three, 0:52:32.560 --> 0:52:34.640 but at least you'll finish the hole. I mean, if 0:52:34.640 --> 0:52:37.279 you pull it in the left bunker, you might pick up. 0:52:41.120 --> 0:52:43.600 You know. That's my idea of a great hole where okay, 0:52:43.600 --> 0:52:45.440 there is a little bailout and if I was playing 0:52:45.440 --> 0:52:46.840 a match with you and you hit it in the 0:52:46.880 --> 0:52:49.760 left bunker, I don't have to hit it on the green. 0:52:50.360 --> 0:52:53.520 I can bail, and then you know, I might still 0:52:53.560 --> 0:52:55.120 mess up. I bail and then you hit a good 0:52:55.120 --> 0:52:58.239 bunker shot and oops, I wasn't so smart after all. 0:52:58.400 --> 0:53:00.760 But you can have the advantage by bailing. 0:53:00.960 --> 0:53:02.960 That's right, because I'm in a bad spot and now 0:53:03.000 --> 0:53:05.200 all of a sudden you've got like a half shot advantage. 0:53:05.520 --> 0:53:08.840 And that hole is I mean, that hole is so 0:53:09.320 --> 0:53:14.080 severe around the green that I see great players bailing 0:53:14.239 --> 0:53:16.600 one hundred and twenty yard Part three with with really 0:53:16.600 --> 0:53:19.799 good players laying up deliberately because they don't want to 0:53:19.800 --> 0:53:22.240 take the chance of making a six going in the bunker. 0:53:22.880 --> 0:53:25.800 So something I've noticed playing a lot of your designs 0:53:25.840 --> 0:53:28.480 and is that I when I have a wedge in 0:53:28.520 --> 0:53:33.040 my hand, which the game of golf has divulged into 0:53:33.080 --> 0:53:34.520 a driver wedge. 0:53:34.160 --> 0:53:36.520 For like the very good players. 0:53:36.800 --> 0:53:38.520 When I have a wedge in my hand, I am 0:53:38.719 --> 0:53:42.719 absolutely terrified. And I don't know if if you're if 0:53:42.760 --> 0:53:45.680 it's just in my head, but like the way that 0:53:45.760 --> 0:53:51.640 you've built you know, greens and bunkers like like my head, 0:53:51.920 --> 0:53:54.120 and like I'm all of a sudden thinking about the 0:53:54.160 --> 0:53:56.680 exact numbers I have to hit shots and how they're 0:53:56.680 --> 0:53:59.000 going to land and react in it. And it's different 0:53:59.040 --> 0:54:02.760 than almost you know, any other architect. Is that on purpose? 0:54:03.280 --> 0:54:04.080 That's on purpose? 0:54:04.280 --> 0:54:07.200 I'm smiling to hear it, because because we really do 0:54:07.320 --> 0:54:11.839 think about that a lot. You know, I talked about, 0:54:12.000 --> 0:54:13.919 you know, going back to when we were talking about 0:54:14.040 --> 0:54:18.080 low trajectory players earlier. There's things that you can do 0:54:18.200 --> 0:54:20.920 that don't bother those guys so much, that really bother 0:54:21.000 --> 0:54:24.320 a good player because when you're you know, if there's 0:54:24.400 --> 0:54:27.440 a if there's a crown or a bump in a 0:54:27.520 --> 0:54:32.319 green like stream Song has a lot of them, and 0:54:32.360 --> 0:54:35.239 you're hitting a forewood into the hole and landed thirty 0:54:35.280 --> 0:54:37.600 yards short of the green and it running up that 0:54:37.719 --> 0:54:40.080 bump doesn't make any difference for a player like that, 0:54:40.560 --> 0:54:42.719 the ball will just roll over the bump if it 0:54:42.760 --> 0:54:46.640 has enough momentum to roll over the bump, and it'll 0:54:46.719 --> 0:54:49.640 roll over softly and go to the other side. You know, 0:54:50.000 --> 0:54:52.080 a good player with a wedge in his hand, he's 0:54:52.360 --> 0:54:54.759 deathly afraid of hitting the backside of the bump and 0:54:54.800 --> 0:54:58.280 have the ball go skidding over the green. And honestly, 0:54:59.400 --> 0:55:02.200 you know, that's one of the few weapons you have 0:55:02.360 --> 0:55:05.719 to really frighten a really good player anymore. You know, 0:55:05.719 --> 0:55:09.480 when I worked for mister Dye, he said, all the 0:55:09.520 --> 0:55:14.399 part fours or driver eight iron driver wedge for good players. Now. 0:55:15.280 --> 0:55:19.120 And you know, the great players, if you look at 0:55:19.120 --> 0:55:22.120 the chor stats, on average, they hit the ball within 0:55:22.600 --> 0:55:25.280 fifteen feet of the hole when they've got a short 0:55:25.280 --> 0:55:28.160 iron in their hands. And you know, back then, the 0:55:28.160 --> 0:55:30.760 guidance for put in the hole was that you wouldn't 0:55:30.760 --> 0:55:32.879 cut the cup less than five paces from the edge 0:55:32.880 --> 0:55:36.480 of the green. So that basically means you can't do 0:55:36.600 --> 0:55:38.759 anything within the circle that the good player is going 0:55:38.760 --> 0:55:40.880 to hit the ball. The only thing you can do 0:55:40.920 --> 0:55:44.080 in that circle is have some contra and some contra 0:55:44.239 --> 0:55:46.080 that makes them think twice about where do I want 0:55:46.120 --> 0:55:51.000 where do I really want this ball to land? You know, 0:55:52.600 --> 0:55:54.520 we play with that a lot to try to make 0:55:54.560 --> 0:55:58.200 it challenging and a little frightening because the other thing, 0:55:58.360 --> 0:56:00.840 the other thing mister Dye was absolutely adamant about, is 0:56:01.480 --> 0:56:03.480 you know, with a great player, you have to try 0:56:03.520 --> 0:56:08.040 to get inside their heads. They're too good to make 0:56:08.440 --> 0:56:11.160 normal mistakes on a golf course that other people make, 0:56:11.760 --> 0:56:14.200 so you have to do things that make them uncomfortable 0:56:14.239 --> 0:56:17.600 at some level. You know, he did a lot with water. 0:56:18.400 --> 0:56:21.040 He did it sometimes with really really deep bunkers, but 0:56:21.600 --> 0:56:23.000 you know he also did it with a lot of 0:56:23.080 --> 0:56:26.200 visual things, like having the green sit up and you 0:56:26.239 --> 0:56:29.840 know it's where there's trouble falling off the back of 0:56:29.880 --> 0:56:32.120 the green and you can't really feel where the back 0:56:32.160 --> 0:56:35.160 of the green is. I've used that a lot in 0:56:35.200 --> 0:56:38.600 my own work, you know. And then the other thing 0:56:38.680 --> 0:56:41.920 that I've used and kind of for different reasons than 0:56:42.000 --> 0:56:46.680 mister Dye, you know, going back to talking about barnbug 0:56:46.800 --> 0:56:50.799 or that bailout that I'm leaving, leaving a player. You know, 0:56:51.120 --> 0:56:54.919 a lot of very good players will play very conservative 0:56:54.960 --> 0:57:00.279 golf when they see something difficult up ahead, and you know, 0:57:00.920 --> 0:57:04.400 you don't use that against them necessarily, but you know, 0:57:04.440 --> 0:57:06.440 if I build a golf course where you can just 0:57:06.520 --> 0:57:10.239 hit it straight at the flag eighteen times. Somebody having 0:57:10.280 --> 0:57:11.759 a good day is going to hit it close to 0:57:11.800 --> 0:57:15.120 the flag an awful lot, and more power to them. 0:57:15.160 --> 0:57:17.000 But if I can get them a little scared to 0:57:17.080 --> 0:57:21.080 hit it right at the flag because the green has 0:57:21.120 --> 0:57:22.560 tilt in it and they don't want to be past 0:57:22.600 --> 0:57:26.200 the hole, or because there's some contra that they don't 0:57:26.200 --> 0:57:29.840 want to hit, or because there's a bailout and it 0:57:29.840 --> 0:57:33.360 would be easier to just take the bailout. You know, 0:57:33.440 --> 0:57:35.560 those are the only things that keep people from shooting 0:57:35.720 --> 0:57:39.680 sixty four all the time, the great players, if somebody does, 0:57:39.720 --> 0:57:41.680 I don't have a problem with it, but I don't 0:57:41.680 --> 0:57:42.000 want it to. 0:57:42.000 --> 0:57:45.480 Be easy for Yeah, i'd agree with that. 0:57:45.680 --> 0:57:49.040 It's when you see these guys on tour get it going, 0:57:49.160 --> 0:57:50.560 it's I mean. 0:57:50.600 --> 0:57:54.280 Oh yeah, somebody told me. You know, Gary Woodland went 0:57:54.320 --> 0:57:58.120 to Dismal River like the week before the Open at 0:57:58.160 --> 0:58:01.280 Chambers Bay because you wanted to play on fescue. And 0:58:03.640 --> 0:58:05.240 one of the three days he was there, he show 0:58:05.320 --> 0:58:10.560 fifty nine on my course, and I'm like, okay, he's 0:58:10.560 --> 0:58:14.080 a great player, all right, you know, eleven under par 0:58:14.680 --> 0:58:15.400 more power to. 0:58:15.400 --> 0:58:18.120 Him that will do it. 0:58:18.120 --> 0:58:21.040 For Part one of Golf Course Architecture one on one, 0:58:21.680 --> 0:58:24.760 Part two will be posted next week. If you're new 0:58:24.800 --> 0:58:27.920 to the podcast, be sure to subscribe on iTunes or 0:58:27.960 --> 0:58:54.880 your podcast provider of your choice,