1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Land, and I'm Joe McCormick. And 4 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: today is going to be one of our invention episodes, 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: the first of a series. In fact, we're going to 6 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: be doing a couple of episodes on the history and 7 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: invention of document duplication. And I think this is a 8 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: fantastic subject for our show because one of our favorite 9 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: things to do is, uh, look at something that is 10 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: so mundane that you don't even notice it's there anymore, 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 1: and rediscover what's strange about it. And I think documents 12 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 1: are a wonderful example of that, because documents are kind 13 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: of it's the fish asking what is water? Situation? We're 14 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: Documents are such a fundamental part of our our culture 15 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: and our our economic and legal lives that we we 16 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: don't even stop to thing in what life would be 17 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: like without them. Yeah, just for many of us in 18 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: a given day, Just think how many documents we create 19 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: or we abandon or delete. Uh, you know, we create 20 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: them for matters that are serious, but also matters that 21 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: are trivial, work related, personal. Um. You know, we'll just 22 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: we'll just create a new document at the drop of 23 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 1: a hat. But but just even considering like the basic 24 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: idea of document duplication, which we're going to be covering. Uh, 25 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: just you think about like sending an email, I send 26 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: you an email of a document, and uh, a copy 27 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 1: of that document is saved for my purposes, and then 28 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: if you respond to me, uh, that probably also has 29 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: another copy of the original document at the bottom. Um. 30 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: So all of this it just occurs without us putting 31 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: any effort into it at all. You know, It's funny 32 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: how much that in particular connects to something we'll talk 33 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: about later in this episode, which is that early mechanical 34 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: processes for document duplication, we're often very focused on replicating 35 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: outing correspondence. This is a thing that was incredibly important 36 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: for for business and legal and personal purposes all throughout 37 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: the years. You wanted to have a copy of a 38 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: letter that you were going to send to somebody else 39 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: so you could remember what you said. Uh, And that 40 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 1: just happens automatically now because of course we're we're sending 41 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 1: most of our messages digitally. Yeah. Absolutely, So first of all, 42 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: let's just back up and just think about the document itself. Um, 43 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: and we've touched on some of this before, just talking 44 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: about the history of of writing and language. But a 45 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: document is essentially human thoughts committed to a medium via 46 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: writing and or drawings, And in this way such thoughts 47 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: can be recorded, clarified, preserved, and passed onto others across 48 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: space and time, in many ways, transcending what is possible 49 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: via merely spoken language. Right, and there's there's actually a 50 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: great little description that I I'd like to borrow from 51 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: Arthur C. Clark's two tho one of Space Odyssey. In it, 52 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: uh Clark is describing the music of Mozart playing on 53 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: the spaceship Discovery and refers to them as quote, the 54 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: frozen thoughts of a brain that had been dust for 55 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: twice a hundred years. One of the interesting things about 56 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: Mozart is Mozart goes back to a time where we 57 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: don't even have original recordings, so we we don't have 58 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: audio recordings of anything that Mozart would have been present 59 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: for the playing of in his own lifetime. All that 60 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: we can get is Mozart's music through documents written as 61 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: sheet music and translated to people who would reproduce it 62 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: years later. Yeah, So the the amazing thing about documents 63 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: in general is that, you know, while translation is often required, 64 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: we can still essentially take documents from centuries or millenniago 65 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: and kind of you know, resuscitate them, rehydrate them so 66 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: that these desiccated thoughts can come to life again and 67 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: resonate once more inside of living human brains. The document 68 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: is a code that allows you to briefly hatch the 69 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: virus of someone else's thoughts from a different time and place. Yeah. Yeah, 70 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: So documents have been with us for a very long time, 71 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: dating back to the late fourth millennium BC and Mesopotamia 72 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: at least. While some scholars believe writing may have spread 73 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 1: from culture to culture, the majority see it as a 74 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: situation of independent invention in the various major civilizations of 75 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: the ancient world, as it becomes increasingly important to record 76 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 1: trade data, laws, histories, and more so. In other words, 77 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: the advancement of these civilizations requires the use of documents now, 78 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 1: as humans possessed neither perfect document recall or unlimited memorization 79 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: storage space. One of the things about official documents like 80 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: this is that their use often necessitated duplication. Now, to 81 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: illustrate this, I thought we might go back a good 82 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: years for an example from the Neo Babylonian period. Um. 83 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: The source I was looking at here was Neo bab 84 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: Bolognian record Keeping Practices by Heather D. Baker, published in 85 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 1: two thousand threes Ancient Archives and Archival Traditions. In this 86 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: the author discusses the importance of duplication in these ancient 87 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: documents systems, um and and and to be clear once more, 88 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: the Neo Babylonian period here we're talking about b C 89 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: through b C, so we're not going back super far 90 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: in the written record, but we're still going back quite 91 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: a ways. What did they do? How did they make 92 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: copies of their important documents? They did not have photocopy 93 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: of machines yet, right, So she points out that first, 94 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: you know, there's there's linguistic evidence for the use of 95 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: copies various words that concern um the duplication of documents. 96 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: And then we of course have examples of surviving copies 97 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: from ancient times as well. Though she contends that the 98 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: use of copies is probably underrepresented in the archaeological record, 99 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 1: and specifically with this example, with these examples from this 100 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: time period, we're talking about private contracts a lot of 101 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: the time inscribed on pillow shaped tablets, pieces of clay, 102 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: complete with info, signatures and dates. Okay, so you'd have 103 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: like a clay tablet and you'd make inscriptions in it, 104 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: indentations or markings in it. That would be a record 105 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: of some kind of transaction usually right, and she writes 106 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: quote whatever form they took, private archival documents were written 107 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: and kept primarily as proof that an obligation existed or 108 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: have been discharged, or as evidence of title to property. 109 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: And of course this is uh, this is not that 110 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: far removed from our current use of documents. Um. She 111 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: points out some extremely relatable reasons for duplication of such documents, 112 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: though um and and again these are reasons for dul 113 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: duplication that are largely still with us today. She brings 114 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: up the division of inheritance between three parties, in which 115 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: each party would require a valid document to demonstrate their 116 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: entitlement to an estate portion. She um. Also, she mentions 117 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: the idea of a person, say, inheriting three different pieces 118 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: of property and then selling one of them off. This 119 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: individual would need a copy of the original agreement to 120 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 1: pass on to the buyer, but would need to keep 121 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: the original document pertaining to the items they didn't sell off. Okay, 122 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: so the tablet, the physical document, uh, provides a sort 123 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: of authorization of how things are, how things should be. 124 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,239 Speaker 1: They give you legitimate claim to something beyond just saying 125 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: this is mine, right right, you know, And and it 126 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: creates a paper trailer, I guess in this case, a 127 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: tablet trail. Um. But another interesting thing that that she 128 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: brings up that I didn't even think about, because on 129 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: one hand, okay, let's say talking about an agreement between 130 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: two parties. Obviously both parties need to have a copy 131 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: of the agreement so they can look at it and like, oh, 132 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: what did we say about that property line or whatever? Well, 133 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: let's look at the document. But another factor here is 134 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: that and this is something explicitly stated in the records. 135 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: According to Baker, two copies of an agreement are made 136 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: because then neither party can alter the writing of the agreement, 137 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: or rather you can alter it, or the other person 138 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: can alter it. But each side has a copy of 139 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: the original. So you know, you're not gonna be able 140 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: to change things in your favor on both documents because 141 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: you do not have possession of both copies. Two copies 142 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: I guess keep both parties honest. I see, so if 143 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: only one party had a contract, they could go get 144 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: ascribed to make a new one that said something different 145 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: and then say this was always the way it was, 146 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: and all all you could do is say no, it wasn't. 147 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,839 Speaker 1: But you wouldn't have anything physical to point to write, 148 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: she writes. Quote. As far as record keeping practices are concerned, 149 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: it is impossible to determine whether a duplicate was prepared 150 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: at the time of the original transaction or later, except 151 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: when the particular phrase and she shares this phrase, uh 152 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: is present, indicating a copy made from an older, damaged original. 153 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: Now that this is I thought this was interesting because 154 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: if you have points out that, okay, obviously some of 155 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: the time you might be creating that duplicate copy the 156 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: time that the original is authored. Like we're entering into 157 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: this agreement, we need two copies, we need three copies, 158 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:08,319 Speaker 1: what have you. But then there are gonna be other 159 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: cases where oh, well, we need to make a copy 160 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: of this document for some purpose, or this document is 161 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: broken or is decaying, or is something damaged about it, 162 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: and we need to make sure that the information of 163 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: on on that tablet survives, uh, the decay of the medium. 164 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: And so sometimes we can't tell which type of copy 165 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: something would be when looking at it. But it's not 166 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: always necessarily clear whether something is the original or a 167 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: copy made concurrent with the original, or a copy made later, right, 168 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 1: except in some circumstances where there's some sort of linguistic 169 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: clue and uh, and yeah, this this idea too, of 170 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: the need for document duplication, because the media upon which 171 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: documents are inscribed, they just inherently deteriorate. And and that 172 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: is the case throughout most of human history, whether you're 173 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: dealing with clay, tablet or um you know, some sort 174 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: of oracle bones or certainly parchment um. You know, these 175 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: are not things that can last forever. But in many 176 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: cases we want the information to last beyond the lifestyle 177 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: time of that particular physical medium. She also points out 178 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: the documents were also copied in the course of scribal training, 179 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: and the resulting duplications may have found their way into 180 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: private archives. Oh that's interesting. It makes me wonder, if 181 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: you know, because of course many texts that existed in 182 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: the ancient world no longer survived that we don't know 183 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: of any copies that exist, maybe they're buried out in 184 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: the desert somewhere, but we don't have any that are 185 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: available to us. And I wonder if some of the 186 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: texts that came through from the ancient world and plentiful 187 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: supply actually came through, maybe not because they were important 188 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: in themselves, but because they were, like example, texts that 189 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: people practiced copying text on. Now, in that same book 190 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: that Ancient Archives and Archival Traditions from two thousand three, 191 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: there's another author who touches briefly on duplication, and this 192 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: is closs our Vinhof discussing documents kept by old Assyrian traders. 193 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: And this is interesting because we we've talked I think 194 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: we've talked about this on the show before in the past, 195 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 1: where you have your dealing with with with with clay 196 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 1: tablets here, but you also have you have envelopes around 197 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: some of those tablets, stamped clay envelopes. Uh. So obviously 198 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 1: there's only one way to get You're not gonna be 199 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: able to get the original out of that, uh that 200 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: that envelope. That envelope is sealed for a reason. You know, 201 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 1: It's it's about sort of like binding the information inside it. 202 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: H So In cases like this, you would need a 203 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: duplicate of a copy that is sealed inside the envelope. Ah, Okay, 204 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: that makes sense. I mean it would be much the 205 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:51,319 Speaker 1: same I guess as if you had a you know, 206 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: it's like if your your grandmother gave you a gift 207 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: wrapped for Christmas, and it was important to you to 208 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,959 Speaker 1: to to keep that gift wrapped within at within that package, 209 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 1: but you also wanted to know what she gave you 210 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: for Christmas, so you also had a copy of the 211 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: toy that wasn't contained within that package, and you just 212 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: kept the actual gift, uh wrapped the entire time. Doubles 213 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: is better or triples is best? Actually yes, So these 214 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: are just some brief examples, but I think they helped 215 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: illustrate the fact that document duplication has been with us 216 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: a very long time, and it was just necessary to 217 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: ensure that documents documents could do what they needed to 218 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: do within a given culture. Though. I think it's interesting, 219 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: so while document copying has been with us since the 220 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: ancient world, for all these reasons we've been talking about, 221 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,079 Speaker 1: I think it's also important to appreciate ways in which 222 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: our thinking about documents has changed due in part probably 223 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: two changes in technology that that make it easier to 224 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: copy documents, and two changes in the say literacy rates 225 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 1: within a culture, which also changed the way people think 226 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: about documents. But I was reading a section from a 227 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 1: book that I found really interesting. So it was a 228 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: book called um Oral Tradition and the Written Record in 229 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: Classical Athens by a scholar of classics at Oxford University 230 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: named Rosalind Thomas. This was published Cambridge University Press in 231 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine, and so this is a section talking 232 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: about how documents and copies of documents were used in 233 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: classical Athens. This would have been in in Greece around 234 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: the fourth to fifth centuries b C. And so this 235 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 1: would have been a time when documents were available. There 236 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: was some literacy in the culture, and documents were used 237 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: and referred to, saying court cases and things like that, 238 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: and for business. But it wasn't a document culture to 239 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: the same extent that we might consider ourselves part of 240 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: a document culture. It was a sort of halfway document culture. 241 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: It was a proto document culture. And so the ways 242 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: they thought about documents and copies were very different than 243 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: the way we think about them. And so I wanted 244 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:00,599 Speaker 1: to mention a few things she he talks about that 245 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: struck me as interesting. And so, during the fourth and 246 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: fifth centuries BC, the use of written documents was increasing 247 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: in various spheres of life. In Athens. You could argue 248 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: this was a time of transition from a primarily oral 249 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 1: culture to an increasingly document conscious culture. Uh. And then 250 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: there were more books circulating during the late fifth century Athens, 251 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: and this led to critiques by figures like Plato and 252 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: other philosophers who believed that the spoken word had virtues 253 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: that were lost in a literary culture. Actually, like Plato stress, 254 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: for example, that a document used in court must be 255 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: verified by the oral testimony of eye witnesses to its drafting, 256 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: among other critiques not as much related to the legal system, 257 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: having to do with memory and so forth. But from 258 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: here Thomas goes on to say that we can actually 259 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: tell from many clues that the ancient Greeks did not 260 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: think about written documents and copying exactly the same way 261 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: we do. And she points out that it's it's obvious 262 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: that the significance of a doc hument often lay within 263 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: its non written aspects, and that documents were sometimes treated 264 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: not only original documents, but copies of those documents were 265 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: treated as quote, iconic or material symbols more so than 266 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: as a reference tool. And a great example here is 267 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: comparing stone inscriptions versus originals written on what we might 268 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: think of as paper or papyrus. Like the question is 269 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: which is more authoritative. So you might have an original 270 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: record of a statement that could be a treaty between 271 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: two nations, or it could be a law issued, or 272 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: it could be decree by a ruler, and you would 273 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: have an original record of that statement that we could 274 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: think of as a paper record, and then you would 275 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: have copies of that statement made on stone that would 276 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: be considered more the public version. Like you could have 277 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: a steely that would have a copy of the original 278 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: decree or treaty or something. And so we would assume, 279 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: based on our type of document consciousness, that the original 280 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: paper document is the more authoritative one and the stone 281 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: inscription that's a copy of that document is the less 282 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: authoritative one. But people in classical Athens did not necessarily 283 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: agree with that. Of course, the process of copying from 284 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: an original document to a stone inscription is a a 285 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: lossy process. This is not fidelity or lossless copying that 286 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: we count on today. This is copying done by hand 287 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: and often with just blatant disregard for the actual wording 288 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: of the original. There'll be all kinds of changes and 289 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: mistakes and stuff introduced in fact at this time a 290 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: lot of times, like spelling and punctuation and stuff might 291 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: not even be standardized. But as evidence of this different 292 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: kind of consciousness, Thomas cites orators from the period who 293 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: quote documents and they will refer to the stone inscription 294 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: copies of those documents, maybe as as the document might 295 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: have year on a publicly visible steely rather than the 296 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: archived originals of those documents. And also some political documents 297 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: would like demand obedience specifically to the steely. It might 298 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: say something like, it is this steely which will bind 299 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: you to your oaths. So this you know, this stone inscription, 300 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: even though it's a copy that might introduce changes from 301 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 1: the original. Uh And Thomas also argues that our concepts 302 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: of original and copy don't necessarily apply to thinking in 303 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: classical Athens, like the Greek word for copy anti graphon 304 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: appears to be used to describe both the archived original 305 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: document and the publicly visible steely. So you might in 306 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: this context just as well say that the earlier paper 307 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,719 Speaker 1: version is a copy of the Steely even though it 308 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 1: was made before, and so the idea of a copy 309 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: has no derogatory implications about the fidelity or authority of 310 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: the document. And so from all this, Thomas argues that 311 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: that an emphasis on verbatim accurate copying the kind of 312 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: copying that we would depend on, Like if you know, 313 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: if you're making copies of something in an office setting 314 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: and the copies of that document make all kinds of 315 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 1: changes to the document, we would consider that a problem. 316 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: Like that's not even necessarily a poor copy. That is 317 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: uh that I mean, it's it's a fraudulent copy. Yeah. Yeah. 318 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: But Thomas argues that an assumption that a later copy 319 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: is less authoritative that is something that tends to come 320 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: with a more highly literate culture, and fourth or fifth 321 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: century Athens had not really reached this point. Another thing, 322 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 1: I wonder this is not a point that Thomas makes, 323 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: but I was just thinking, so a lot of these 324 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: documents in ancient Greece would have been attempts to record 325 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: spoken decrees or agreements. So to take an agreement that 326 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,199 Speaker 1: had been made between two leaders in spoken form, or 327 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: to record the spoken decree of a ruler or something 328 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: and write that down, which I doubt would be a 329 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: process of perfect fidelity even when first recorded. You know, 330 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: so even the first writing down of this probably introduces 331 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: some changes, and so does an emphasis on perfect copying 332 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: also arise more when documents are uh, when their first 333 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: instantiation is in written form, you know, when they leave 334 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: the pin of the original author rather than the mouth. 335 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 1: If that makes any sense, Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, 336 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: so basically we could, we could. The question might be 337 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: if you have UM written documents arising in response or 338 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: as a way to support oral agreements, Uh, then yeah, 339 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: you can. There may be this looseness in UM in 340 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 1: the authority of of of copies. But then when you 341 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 1: are depending primarily on the documents, then we see uh, 342 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: you know, the the the idea of the original document 343 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: being key and the fidelity of the document being of 344 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: of of prime importance. But there's another thing that Thomas 345 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 1: mentions that struck me as really interesting about this different 346 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: document consciousness. Uh. She points out that there was an 347 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: assumption common to many people in classical Athens that, in 348 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 1: order to show that a document was no longer enforced. 349 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: The document was supposed to be destroyed or obliterated. And 350 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: I think, wow, that is so interesting. That's in most 351 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: context today that would not strike us as something to do, like, oh, okay, 352 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 1: there's a new system for logging into our timekeeping website 353 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: at work. Better destroy the old instruction document. You know, 354 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: you just don't use it anymore, right, But there was 355 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: something about document consciousness at this time and place that 356 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: suggested almost a kind of magical authority to say that 357 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: the stone on which an inscription is made, or the 358 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: sheet on which in an archive original of a of 359 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: a document is is kept that like, in order to 360 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: indicate that whatever is written on this document no longer 361 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 1: holds true, you need to like smash or or in 362 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: some way annihilate this document itself, rather than just say 363 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 1: keeping it for your records but knowing that it is 364 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: no longer in force. Yeah, this is interesting to think about. Um. 365 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it's not without its parallels in 366 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 1: in the modern world. I mean, obviously you can think 367 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: of top secret documents that are burned after reading and 368 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: so forth, sensitive documents that should be shredded or disposed of. 369 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: I'm also that's more of a security question, then a 370 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 1: question of like whether the content still hold true or not. Right. Well, 371 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: one example that came to mind too was that of 372 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,880 Speaker 1: an invalid passport. Um the passports generally not destroyed, but 373 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 1: at least with with US passports. I don't know if 374 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: there's a different practice in other parts of the world, 375 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: but you get that big hole punch through it, yeah, 376 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: which is isn't quite destruction, but you know, it's sort 377 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: of to say, like we have phil physically altered the documents, 378 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: these documents are no longer valid. Well, that gives a 379 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 1: hint to something that actually I think we'll come back 380 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: to more in the sec End episode of the series. 381 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: But the idea of documents security that say, when you 382 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: live in a world like us, you know, this is 383 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 1: a world in which copies of documents are scarce. They're 384 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: laborious to produce because they have to be produced by hand, 385 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: and so uh so there's gonna be naturally very few 386 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: copies of most documents except maybe very widely circulated books, 387 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: and even those they're expensive and they're costly to produce, 388 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: their laborious they made, they're made by hand and all that. 389 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: So the ancient world was a was a situation of 390 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:34,360 Speaker 1: global documents scarcity in a world of the exact opposite 391 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: to just proliferation of uh infinite lossless copying of documents 392 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 1: their digital means in which we live today, the main 393 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 1: problems facing us are totally different ones. It's like, how 394 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: do you keep either yeah, useless or unimportant documents from 395 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: cluttering up your world, or keep sensitive documents from being 396 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: distributed in ways that they shouldn't be now, um, Heather D. 397 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: Baker in that Neo Babylonian paper reference earlier, Uh, they 398 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: did mention, uh, some examples of document destruction. In this case, 399 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: we'd be talking about the physical breaking of tablets. And 400 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: if I'm understanding or correctly, um and it, it does 401 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: get a little complicated when you're talking about breaking of 402 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: obligations and also the breaking the physical breaking of tablets. 403 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: But apparently the physical breaking of tablets sometimes aligned with 404 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: the breaking of agreements. Um And by that it could 405 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 1: also just mean like a debt is paid, and that 406 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: there were sometimes stipulations that after a sale, for instance, 407 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: of property, any copies of ownership documents that were not 408 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: handed over to the new owner were to be broken 409 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: were to be destroyed. So It lines up a little 410 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 1: bit of what we're talking about here, like the physical 411 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: document as being just sort of like this embodiment of 412 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: of of of a contract. And then yeah, if the 413 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: contract is broken or the debt is paid, etcetera, Well 414 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: what do you do You need to destroy that? Otherwise 415 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: someone might read that and think that somebody still owes 416 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: somebody money. Well, you know, I guess we can still 417 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 1: see echo even though this is not broadly what we 418 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: do with the documents in our lives, you can see 419 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: echoes of it in like I don't know, movie scenes 420 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: or plays or something. In a story, when there is 421 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: a significant invalidation of a contract, say a character will 422 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: tear it up, if you know, or they'll or they'll 423 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: burn an iou notice when the debt is paid or 424 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: when it's forgiven or something. But that seems to be 425 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: for kind of story purposes, all right. Well, generally, in 426 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,719 Speaker 1: these episodes, these invention episodes, we talked about what came before, 427 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: and in talking about documentation um duplication technology. Uh, it's 428 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: pretty obvious what came before. We've already referenced it, and 429 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: that is uh that copies were made by hand. Uh, 430 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: this was the way it was for a very long time. 431 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: It's previously no. With the Neo Babylonian example, copies of 432 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: a given document might be made at the point of 433 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: generation of said document um or they might be made later, 434 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: either as required for some purpose or simply to replace 435 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,719 Speaker 1: a damaged copy. Uh. And in that example as well, 436 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: you know, we mentioned the fact that that scribes and 437 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: training would also make copies as well. It is difficult 438 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 1: to overstate the importance of this scribal labor throughout history. 439 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: I mean, from the invention of writing up until the 440 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 1: takeover by by mechanical means of producing copies. Making copies 441 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: of documents was a major human labor endeavor, right, and 442 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: the scribe was key to all of this because that's 443 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,959 Speaker 1: what a scribe historically did, or at least that was 444 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: the core responsibility making copies. They were professional copymakers. And 445 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,360 Speaker 1: if we were today to destroy all copy making machines 446 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: in some manner of but Lerry and Jahad out of 447 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: Frank Herbert's done, then the scribe would be our ment 448 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: at a human machine for the creation of copies and duplications. 449 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: And so scribes were vastly important in numerous ancient cultures. 450 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: You know, we we It makes sense, right, because documents, 451 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 1: like we say, they become so important for all of 452 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: the various functions that are going on within a given culture, 453 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: within a given empire, uh in some of these cases, 454 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: and so it becomes increasingly important to have scribes to 455 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: handle these documents. And we have some some excellent examples 456 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: of scribes at work, say in ancient Egypt, and we 457 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: know many of them by name, uh, such as ms 458 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: or Almos who work during the seventeenth century b C. 459 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 1: E uh Amenotep, son of Hapu, who were during the 460 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: fourteenth century BC and was later deified um, which I 461 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: think underscores the importance here. Uh. The scribes such as 462 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 1: this weren't essential for accounting for government functions and also 463 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: the preservation and dissemination of wisdom. Uh. So you know, 464 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: I think the Egyptian example here is a great one because, Yeah, 465 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: it underlines that this was a specialized skill um in 466 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 1: a given society, and scribes were in these case scribes 467 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: were not made to serve in the army. The sons 468 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 1: of scribes enter the profession as well. So it was 469 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 1: it was very important that you like maintained the supply 470 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: of scribes. Yeah, And I think it's also important to 471 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: understand the pervasiveness of the influence of the scribe throughout 472 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: all levels of a culture, because it's not just say 473 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: the business world, like we've been talking about business contracts, 474 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 1: business letters and and and those kind of financial and 475 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: business arrangement documents, and also you know, political decrees and 476 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: things like that. But scribes were equally important for copying 477 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: religious texts. Probably one of the most copied texts by 478 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: scribes in the history of the world has been the Bible, 479 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 1: you know, copying and just other texts that people might 480 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: want copies of, scribes made them all. Yeah, and there's 481 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: a there's a wonderful level of this too in ancient 482 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: each because you have the god thought. Thought was considered 483 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: the god of scribes, but he was also the scribe 484 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: of the gods. As Geraldine Pinch points out, in Egyptian mythology, 485 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 1: he was the lord of wisdom and secret knowledge. He 486 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 1: was the inventor of written language and of languages in general. 487 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 1: He was quote the excellent of understanding, and he observed 488 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: and wrote down everything that happened in the world and 489 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: then reported it to the god Ray or raw each morning. Um. 490 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 1: So he was paired with the library goddess Sesshat and 491 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: together these two knew the future as well as the past. Uh, 492 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: which is interesting. Here we have the you know, the 493 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: roles of the librarian and also you know, the historian 494 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: and the scribe here kind of mixing together and and 495 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,959 Speaker 1: becoming like all knowing, Like this is the center of knowledge. 496 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: This is how we understand where we've been and where 497 00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: we're going. Wrote down everything that happened in the world. Well, 498 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: he's a god, he can he can do that. He 499 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: was also said to have written forty three books that 500 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: contained all wisdom needed by humanity and uh, and he 501 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: was also essential in enforcing matt the concept of law, 502 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: order and balance. So, uh, you know, I think all 503 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: of this helps just to drive home just how important 504 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: the scribe is to a given civilization. I mean, it 505 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: helps it function, It helps it know what it is 506 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: as it moves through time. All the wisdom, if it's 507 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: in forty three books, maybe, but they could be. We 508 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: don't know how long the books are, right, I guess it. 509 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: Like you know, you could think of these as magical books, right, Yeah, 510 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: I might wait for him to come out and paperback. No. Um, 511 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: So I think you know, in this we get the 512 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: fact that the scribe was also sometimes but not always, 513 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 1: something of an administrator as well. Um, there's a certain 514 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: amount of power creep that seems to occur with scribes 515 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: at times. For the ancient Israelites, for example, scribes acted 516 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: in positions that we would now associate with lawyers and 517 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: judges and even journalists. Oh yeah, because I mean, I 518 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: guess literacy and and power over documents in many ways 519 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: becomes sort of like power over the culture in general. Yeah, 520 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: and and this is we'll come back to this, but 521 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: it's worth reminding ourselves that the role of the scribe 522 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: was was not only skilled, but it also had an 523 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: impact on on the body, particularly on the eyes. I 524 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: was looking back at a history of the mirror by 525 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: Mark Pendergrast from two thousand nine. We looked at when 526 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: we were talking about the invention of the mirror, and 527 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: he had a tidbit about Jewish scribes. He writes, quote, 528 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: Jewish scribes believe that they could improve weak eyes by 529 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: taking a break from the scrolls and staring into a mirror. 530 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: Oh that kind of echoes the what the messages you 531 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: get from hr saying remember to take a break every 532 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: so and so minutes of staring at a computer and 533 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: staring to a mirror instead. Now another example that I 534 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: thought was was interesting about the importance of the scribe. Um. 535 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: I was looking at um a PhD. Dissertation from one 536 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: Seng Wing ma Um. He's a scholar of ancient China. 537 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: Uh from It's from two thousand seventeen titles Scribes in 538 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: Early Imperial China, and U notes that, first of all, 539 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: scribal history in ancient China is less studied and understood 540 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: because quote a group of highly educated intellectuals dominated the 541 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: transmitted textual traditions in ancient China, and they portrayed scribes 542 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: as corrupt officials manipulating the laws and documents to their 543 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: own benefit. Now that the specific example that that this 544 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: author brings up, though his concerns um the rule of 545 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: the first Emperor Quin chi Huang from the work has 546 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: covered in the work the Historical Records. This is a 547 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: Han text also known as the Records of the Grand Historian, 548 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: composed by Uh Simata. Quote. Things in the world, great 549 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: or small are all decided by his Highness. His Highness 550 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: even measures the weight of his paperwork by the she. 551 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: One she equals thirty point thirty six ms Ma mentions 552 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: um continues every day and night he has an allotment 553 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: of work. He does not rest until he meets this allotment. 554 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: So Ma summarizes this as follows quote. The passage tells 555 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: us that the first emperor would never entrust his power 556 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: to others. In order to achieve that, he ruled over 557 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 1: the world of documents, which allowed him to extend his 558 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: power without the restriction of time and space. His ambition 559 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: is reflected in the quantity of his daily paperwork. So 560 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: documentation is power. But Ma also stresses that no single man, 561 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: even a great man, could have read all of the 562 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: paperwork generated by an empire every day. He had to 563 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: depend on scribes who accumulated this information and condensed it 564 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: for his use. Uh. So this is also where I 565 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: think the accusation of scribal manipulation and misused could potentially 566 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: come into play. You have individuals with great power, They 567 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: rule over a world of documents. They depend on scribes 568 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: to handle these documents and also uh condense information for them. Okay, 569 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: so here we're talking about a profession where on one 570 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: hand you could think about them as faithful duplicators of 571 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: existing documents. There's a record of documents somewhere, and they 572 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: will make copies of it so that more people can 573 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: have access to the information, or more people can keep 574 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: copies or whatever. But that those literacy skills might skew 575 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: into editing documents and summarizing documents and as sort of 576 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: creating sense out of a out of a mess of documents, 577 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: and that of course is a different kind of power altogether. Yeah, 578 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: you know, and you know, obviously we live in a 579 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: world today that is that is run by documents and 580 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: depends le on on data and documentation. But at times, 581 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: like we we sort of we acknowledge it without actually 582 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: acknowledging it. Like I just think, for instance, any police 583 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: show you've ever watched, you know, there's always that scene 584 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: where they're like, oh, I'm gonna go do a lot 585 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,240 Speaker 1: of paperwork on this, and you know there's some mention 586 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 1: of all the paperwork that has to take place as well. Um, 587 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,240 Speaker 1: but but but sometimes it's with an air of like, uh, 588 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: you know, it's the system's bureaucracy, but but you know, 589 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: it's it's still inherently part of the whole power system. 590 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: And the you know, like the the physical process doesn't 591 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: work without the data process. But of course that's crucial 592 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: to any kind of work. Really, you gotta have a 593 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:48,919 Speaker 1: record of what you did. Yes. Now, before we get 594 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: into mechanical duplication devices, I want to come back to 595 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: eyes for a second. Here I mentioned, you know, the 596 00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: the the idea that the Jewish scry uh might have 597 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: stared into mirrors to help relieve the straining on their eyes. Um. 598 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: This reminds me of a point that I think we've 599 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: mentioned on the show before, but it's one that science 600 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: historian James Burke brought up in his book Connections, discussing 601 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,399 Speaker 1: the link between invention and social need. The basic here, 602 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: of course, is that just because a new invention or 603 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: innovation is technologically possible, it doesn't mean there's a high 604 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:31,359 Speaker 1: enough demand for it, etcetera sure, or that it's cost effective. Right. So, 605 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: and in this he ends up talking about um, the 606 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,240 Speaker 1: use of spectacles uh, and also the importance of scribes 607 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: in Europe. Writing quote. As the European economy picked up 608 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: after centuries of invasion the Dark Ages, any device that 609 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: would prolong the working life of aging scribes was to 610 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: be welcomed. And he also points out that as Europe 611 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 1: rebounded from the plague, there is a greatly increased demand 612 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: for reproduced manuscripts, but the word for subscribes in Europe 613 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: had been reduced by the plague as well, So paper 614 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: prices were going down, but the cost of skilled scribes 615 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 1: to copy books was expensive. Situation that arguably hastens the 616 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,720 Speaker 1: advancement of the printing press, which of course is pretty 617 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: much like the technical technological advancement of the duplication of 618 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: documents at the point of initial production, though with some 619 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 1: important unique features. I mean, for example, you wouldn't the 620 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: printing press was a revolutionary invention, so you know, in 621 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 1: the fifteenth century, suddenly you could mass produce books and 622 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: pamphlets and and things we might think of like newspapers today. 623 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: But because of the sort of the ordeal of setting 624 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: the type and everything and making it on a printing press, 625 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,439 Speaker 1: that was useful for mass produced items. And you still 626 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,479 Speaker 1: had this middle category of documents of things you would 627 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: definitely want copies of, but maybe not thousands of piece 628 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: of right, if it's a personal document between like two parties, 629 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: three parties, etcetera, you're not gonna miss setting up the 630 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: printing press to handle that would be would be overkill 631 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: but if you are looking to say, take this particular 632 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: bit of information, this particular document, and you want, uh, 633 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: you know, hundreds of people within a given city to 634 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 1: have access to it, then that's where the printing press 635 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: becomes essential. Uh. It is again like you said, mass production, 636 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: mass duplication of a single document. Now for that middle 637 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 1: category where you've got say a business or personal document 638 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 1: that you want multiple copies of, but it doesn't rise 639 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: to the level of of hiring out a printing press. 640 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: There were some other mechanical duplication devices that came before, 641 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: say the photo copier that we know of. So turning 642 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,240 Speaker 1: to mechanical duplication devices that work in that middle range, 643 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: I wanted to mention a couple. One is something I 644 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: found very interesting. It's known as the polygraph. And no, 645 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,080 Speaker 1: that is not the so called Lie detector test. This 646 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: is a totally different polygraph. It was an early duplication 647 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,320 Speaker 1: device that was invented by an English engineer named John 648 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 1: Isaac Hawkins who lived seventeen seventy two to eighteen fifty 649 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: four or five. And um he also apparently created one 650 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: of the first successful designs for an upright piano. UH. 651 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: And there were also some very important design improvements to 652 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,919 Speaker 1: the polygraph that were contributed later by a guy named 653 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: Charles Wilson Peel. Apparently, Thomas Jefferson owned several versions of 654 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,720 Speaker 1: the polygraph machine and was famously obsessed with it. Actually, 655 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,399 Speaker 1: so how did the polygraph work? Well? First of all, 656 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 1: again we're not at the photo copying stage yet, so 657 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: this is not a device that's designed to take an 658 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:49,800 Speaker 1: existing document and automatically produce a copy. Instead, this is 659 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 1: a machine for duplicating copies of handwritten documents at the 660 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: point of origin. The idea of the polygraph duplicator is 661 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: pretty simple. So you take the normal physical work of 662 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,320 Speaker 1: writing a document on paper, and you use that work 663 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 1: to produce two documents instead of one. In practice, this 664 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:13,839 Speaker 1: meant a machine consisting of two pens connected by a 665 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 1: series of levers, springs, and hinges, and you would take 666 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 1: one pin in your hand and write your letter out 667 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,279 Speaker 1: with it, and the motion of that pen would be 668 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: transferred through the machine to the other pins. So it's 669 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,359 Speaker 1: literally a second pin connected to your first pen with 670 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 1: all these little articulated gizmos on it in order to 671 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,720 Speaker 1: translate the minute motions of the pin in your hand 672 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: to the pin that's writing on the second piece of paper. 673 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: So ideally you dip your pen in the ink. Well, 674 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: the other pen dips in it's ink. Well, you write 675 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: your name, It writes your name on the second sheet 676 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: of paper, and so forth. As you might imagine. Uh, 677 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: you know, this is a machine that requires very delicate design. 678 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,919 Speaker 1: Apparently took a lot of tweaking of the design before 679 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 1: it worked really well. Uh. This guy, ap Peel, while 680 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: trying to make the polygraph more usable, apparently complained that 681 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: the He said that the problems with the machine are 682 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: quote hid in impenetrable darkness. But eventually it was made 683 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: into pretty much usable shape. And this was especially useful 684 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 1: for situations that we mentioned earlier in which you need 685 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 1: exactly two copies of a document, one for someone else 686 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,839 Speaker 1: in one for yourself. So this could be useful of course, 687 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: if you're writing out contracts or something. But and technically 688 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 1: it could be used for anything, but it was apparently 689 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: especially popular for letter writing. Say, if you're a law office, 690 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,399 Speaker 1: or even if you're just keeping a personal correspondence, why 691 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,400 Speaker 1: might you need a copy of a letter that you 692 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: were sending to somebody else. Well, obviously, so you can 693 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: remember what you said. So imagine you get a letter 694 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 1: from somebody who you wrote, maybe over a year ago, 695 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 1: and it begins in answer to your question. Absolutely not. 696 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,479 Speaker 1: But if you didn't have a copy of the letter 697 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 1: you sent and you don't remember what you asked, you're 698 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 1: in trouble there. So it's useful as a personal reference, 699 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: but especially useful for a high stakes kind of correspondence, 700 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: like in business or in a law office or something 701 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 1: like that. And so this did prove very useful, But 702 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,840 Speaker 1: again it was only for producing duplicate copies of handwritten documents. 703 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 1: At the point of origin. The machine would have no 704 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: power whatsoever to uh to do anything with a document 705 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: that had already been written, because it relies on the 706 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,759 Speaker 1: power of your writing hand as you right. Oh and 707 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,280 Speaker 1: one funny thing about copies of documents and and so forth. 708 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 1: I found a note from the Monticello Archive website about 709 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: the polygraph machine which states that quote the original American 710 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 1: patent document, patent number x four five three, granted May 711 00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:52,360 Speaker 1: seventeen to eighteen o three to John Jay Hawkins, apparently 712 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,800 Speaker 1: that they got his name kind of wrong, was lost 713 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,360 Speaker 1: in a fire in the patent office in eighteen thirty 714 00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,279 Speaker 1: six and is no longer extent, So I guess they 715 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 1: didn't have a copy. How but how many documents? So 716 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,479 Speaker 1: we know about this document that the original was lost, 717 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: But how many documents from history were completely lost because 718 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 1: there weren't any surviving copies and the original was destroyed 719 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: in a fire or just moldered in a drawer or something. 720 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,880 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean countless. You know that we 721 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 1: we we frequently mentioned ancient texts on the show. Uh, 722 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: and we have to state, oh, yeah, well, the actual 723 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,879 Speaker 1: writings of this particular philosopher or writer are lost to us. 724 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:31,399 Speaker 1: We only have the the mentions and reverberations of their 725 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:35,279 Speaker 1: thoughts in surviving worcs. Yeah, and sometimes sometimes we even 726 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 1: know they did write something because other writers that we 727 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,439 Speaker 1: do have will quote them, but we don't have their originals. Yeah. 728 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,480 Speaker 1: Nowadays it you almost have to try and engineer that 729 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 1: kind of scarcity and something. I can't think of something 730 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:52,840 Speaker 1: in terms of like um written document off hand, but 731 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,440 Speaker 1: you know there have been projects with say albums that 732 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: have come out where you know you're gonna create the 733 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 1: scarcity of saying there is only copy of this um etcetera. 734 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 1: What are you thinking? Wu Tang. Well, I get that 735 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 1: does come to mind, but I think there's there have 736 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,440 Speaker 1: also been some some some other attempts and any Yeah, 737 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,560 Speaker 1: you also get into because like limited editions of things, 738 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:17,919 Speaker 1: you know, signed limited editions, signed prints, so that even 739 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 1: in an age of of duplication and you know, high 740 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:25,760 Speaker 1: quality duplication, uh, you'll have a certain amount of scarcity 741 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 1: built into there and may and make the individual copies 742 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,279 Speaker 1: more meaningful. I guess now there's one other device I 743 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about, because the polygraph was not the 744 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: only mechanical method for the limited copying of handwritten letters 745 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 1: at the time. There was another thing that was the 746 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,920 Speaker 1: so called letter press or the copy press or the 747 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:48,720 Speaker 1: letter copying press. So the copy press was widely used 748 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 1: by clerks and in law offices in the late eighteen 749 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,720 Speaker 1: through all throughout the nineteenth century, especially to do about 750 00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 1: the same thing as the polygraph, to make copies about 751 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 1: going correspondence, though technically the copy press was more versatile 752 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,000 Speaker 1: than the than the polygraphic could be used to copy 753 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,359 Speaker 1: anything written on paper, and the method worked like this, 754 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:13,719 Speaker 1: so you would take a document or page that you 755 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,960 Speaker 1: wanted a copy of, and then you would take a 756 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 1: very thin piece of paper. I've seen it referred to 757 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,840 Speaker 1: as like tissue paper or onion skin paper, and you 758 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:28,000 Speaker 1: would moisten that tissue paper, probably with a brush or 759 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,359 Speaker 1: something like that, and then you would press the moistened 760 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,880 Speaker 1: tissue paper along with the handwritten original document in a 761 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:40,080 Speaker 1: gigantic wooden clamp. So imagine a big wooden board with 762 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,360 Speaker 1: like a screw or a press lever on top, and 763 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,160 Speaker 1: you would press this down on the stack of pages, 764 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,839 Speaker 1: and the pressure would cause some small amount of the 765 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,960 Speaker 1: ink in the original page to leak out and soak 766 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,560 Speaker 1: into the moisten tissue paper, creating a copy of the 767 00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:01,640 Speaker 1: original document. And if you want to copy multiple documents 768 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,399 Speaker 1: at once, or if you wanted to copy a say, 769 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,000 Speaker 1: page out of a book while protecting the other pages, 770 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: you could sandwich each document and the piece of what 771 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,239 Speaker 1: tissue paper it was being imprinted on between sheets of 772 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 1: oil paper, which would prevent the water and ink from 773 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,200 Speaker 1: bleeding out to the other side. So you could actually 774 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,960 Speaker 1: make a stack of copies of documents out all at 775 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,480 Speaker 1: the same time with these oil oil papers in between them. 776 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:28,680 Speaker 1: This method was actually in use way back into the 777 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,839 Speaker 1: eighteenth century. One of the early models was invented by 778 00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,840 Speaker 1: James Watt, the Scottish engineer who was behind important early 779 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,120 Speaker 1: modifications to the idea of the steam engine. Watts copy 780 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:43,399 Speaker 1: press dates back to about seventeen eighty. But I've I've 781 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,480 Speaker 1: read some accounts from these these early decades of the 782 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,240 Speaker 1: copy press that it often didn't work super well, especially 783 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,239 Speaker 1: with the ink available at the time. It's something that 784 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:57,040 Speaker 1: early users of the polygraph actually complained about, saying, oh, yeah, 785 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,839 Speaker 1: the copy made by the polygraph is so much more 786 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 1: legible than copies made with the with the letter press. 787 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,239 Speaker 1: Because to read a copy made with one of these 788 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,799 Speaker 1: early press methods, uh, you know it was it would 789 00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,399 Speaker 1: depend on all kinds of circumstances, like how much ink 790 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,720 Speaker 1: you actually got out of the original onto the copy paper, 791 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,319 Speaker 1: and I think you would often have to hold it 792 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,000 Speaker 1: up to the light in in order to read it. 793 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,400 Speaker 1: You know, the ink did not come through copiously. Obviously, 794 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,560 Speaker 1: this method worked better if you made the copy soon 795 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,160 Speaker 1: after the document was created, I think, because the ink 796 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,960 Speaker 1: had dried less. So you can still think of this 797 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,440 Speaker 1: as a method that favored copies produced roughly at the 798 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,880 Speaker 1: time of the documents origin. However, it does seem like 799 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,480 Speaker 1: you could sometimes use this to try to copy pre 800 00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:46,520 Speaker 1: existing documents with varying success. And there were many different 801 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 1: versions of the copy press, using different preparations of ink, copy, 802 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 1: paper pressing method and so forth, and in in all 803 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,400 Speaker 1: these different forms, it was a popular method for copying 804 00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,399 Speaker 1: documents all through the nineteenth century. Now, thing that comes 805 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:02,120 Speaker 1: to mind when you bring up the you know, the 806 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:07,240 Speaker 1: possible copying of older documents, uh, is that you're getting 807 00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:12,160 Speaker 1: into situations where if you're removing any ink from that document, 808 00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:15,759 Speaker 1: you are in effect damaging the original copy. So you're 809 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,640 Speaker 1: you're in this balancing act of how can I how 810 00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:23,400 Speaker 1: can I copy that material without destroying or partially eroding 811 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 1: the original. It's kind of like for as a kid, 812 00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,720 Speaker 1: it's like if you have some silly putty in one hand, 813 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,239 Speaker 1: and you have you know, one of your your your 814 00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:33,279 Speaker 1: parents newspaper in the other and maybe they haven't read 815 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,560 Speaker 1: it yet. You know, you you can make from experience, Yeah, 816 00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,120 Speaker 1: you can make some fun copies off of that newspaper, 817 00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:45,360 Speaker 1: but you may you may render it um uh unusable, 818 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,879 Speaker 1: you may destroy the original um um article. And I'm 819 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,920 Speaker 1: not sure that your parent is going to accept the 820 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,920 Speaker 1: silly putty copy in its place. What did the Wizard 821 00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,520 Speaker 1: of I'd say, I can't read his text bubble. Now, well, 822 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:01,920 Speaker 1: here you go, here's the copy I made on this 823 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,759 Speaker 1: silly Partty, don't hold it just by the top or 824 00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,319 Speaker 1: it's gonna it's going to uh along gate. All right, Well, 825 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,160 Speaker 1: I think we're gonna call it there for part one 826 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,279 Speaker 1: of the series. But in the next episode we'll be 827 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,600 Speaker 1: back to discuss more devices that came along for document 828 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:19,320 Speaker 1: duplication later on, as well as some of the challenges 829 00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,040 Speaker 1: and changes we face in a world where we take limitless, 830 00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:27,120 Speaker 1: lossless copying by digital means for granted. That's right, So 831 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,040 Speaker 1: tune in next time for more. In the meantime, if 832 00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,040 Speaker 1: you would like to check out other episodes Stuff to 833 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,480 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind that you can find core episodes on 834 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,320 Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays, and the Stuff to Blow Your Mind 835 00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:42,359 Speaker 1: podcast feed on Mondays, and that feed we do listener mail. 836 00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,240 Speaker 1: On Wednesday's we do a short form artifact or monster 837 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,960 Speaker 1: fact episode, and on Fridays we do Weird How Cinema. 838 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,319 Speaker 1: That's our time to set asfide most serious concerns and 839 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,400 Speaker 1: just talk about a strange film, huge things. As always 840 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,799 Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you 841 00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:58,880 Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us with feedback 842 00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,200 Speaker 1: on this episode or any other, to suggest topic for 843 00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,240 Speaker 1: the future, or just to say hello, you can email 844 00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:05,879 Speaker 1: us at contact that Stuff to Blow Your Mind Got 845 00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:15,600 Speaker 1: carm Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of I 846 00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,600 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit 847 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,520 Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening 848 00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:31,239 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.