Speaker 1: Hey, everybody. Today's guest has honestly made history, first by
Speaker 1: making a mark in the award winning TV show Orange
Speaker 1: Is a New Black, before building a career that spans
Speaker 1: film and TV and music and so much more. Laverne
Speaker 1: Cox is an inspirational figure for so many people, and
Speaker 1: I'm so glad to have her on the show today.
Speaker 1: Her story will blow you away, So lean in. I'm
Speaker 1: glad you well. I am here today extremely excited to
Speaker 1: welcome our guest, Laverne Cox. Laverne, it's so great. Have
Speaker 1: we ever have our paths crossed? I feel like we
Speaker 1: must have met someplace. I know we haven't worked in
Speaker 1: anything together, but.
Speaker 2: I think I would remember meeting the legendary Kevin Bacon.
Speaker 1: I think I would remember meeting the legendary Laverne.
Speaker 3: We've never met. It's so funny.
Speaker 2: I was in I was in La over the weekend
Speaker 2: and Footloose was on TV with I know, and and
Speaker 2: then Flash Dance came on and I just like, I'm
Speaker 2: fifty one years old, so like my entire like elementary school,
Speaker 2: like life, like flash before my eyes, and like it
Speaker 2: was such it was such a moment. I know you've
Speaker 2: done many things since Footloose, but that is how I
Speaker 2: discovered you, and it.
Speaker 3: Was just a lovely nostalgic moment that I had just
Speaker 3: had just a few days ago.
Speaker 1: Oh that's awesome. Yeah, well let me tell you.
Speaker 3: Maybe I have to watch it.
Speaker 1: The scary thing is it's the fortieth anniversary this year.
Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure how to process that yet. But
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four, it'll be the fortieth anniversary of
Speaker 1: making that movie. And you mentioned the Flash Dance, which
Speaker 1: I believe came out either the year before or around
Speaker 1: the same time.
Speaker 3: It's a year before.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a year before, right, And funny side
Speaker 1: story is that I had a I had a dance
Speaker 1: double in the in the movie as well as as
Speaker 1: well as and so did Jennifer Peele and they there
Speaker 1: the two doubles got married.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I didn't know that.
Speaker 1: Isn't that crazy story? That's yeah, I'm not sure it lasted,
Speaker 1: but I know that they were married for a while.
Speaker 3: That's amazing. God.
Speaker 2: Flash Dance with My Life got Footlooths was so just
Speaker 2: be nostalgia, the memories. Anyway, Well, it's so nice.
Speaker 1: It's so nice to meet you, so nice to have
Speaker 1: you here especially, uh, fantastic knowing that you liked that movie,
Speaker 1: so thank you for that. Of course, I'm so speaking
Speaker 1: about going going back. I know you probably hear this
Speaker 1: a lot, but tell me about your your your journey
Speaker 1: into this specifically into this profession, and what it was
Speaker 1: that brought you to our screen.
Speaker 3: Oh my, you know. I it's been a long journey.
Speaker 2: But I started out so when I when I was
Speaker 2: a kid, I grew up in Mobile, Alabama, and when
Speaker 2: I started walking, I started dancing and I always had
Speaker 2: and so I was a dancer as a kid. So
Speaker 2: footloose and flash dance were touchstones, as was fame for me,
Speaker 2: and so I was. And so from about the age
Speaker 2: of five years old till third grade, I begged my
Speaker 2: mother to put me into dance classes, and finally, when
Speaker 2: I was in third grade, I started studying tap in jazz. Mobil,
Speaker 2: Alabama was not the best place for me to grow up.
Speaker 2: I was bullied as a kid. I was you know,
Speaker 2: beaten up and chased home from school every day because
Speaker 2: I was this very fim child and I was assigned
Speaker 2: male at birth.
Speaker 3: And so when I would dance, I would.
Speaker 2: Create these characters and have music in my head and
Speaker 2: I would go someplace else, and it really saved my
Speaker 2: life as a kid. It was this amazing, wonderful thing.
Speaker 3: I care your.
Speaker 2: I used to start doing talent shows in third grade
Speaker 2: and I choreographed a dance routine to man Hunt from
Speaker 2: Flash Dance and been third grade.
Speaker 1: Is there a videotape for that?
Speaker 3: I wish we weren't. We were poor, so we didn't
Speaker 3: like record this.
Speaker 2: But can you imagine like this led a little black
Speaker 2: kid doing a jazz dance routine to man Hunt from
Speaker 2: Flash Dance. And I don't think I fully, I didn't
Speaker 2: understand what I'm going on a man Hunt Mint. So
Speaker 2: I've always been a performer, and I always knew that
Speaker 2: I would transition to acting. Even when I was a dancer,
Speaker 2: I felt like it was all sort of about characters.
Speaker 3: It was all about sort.
Speaker 2: Of creating personas, and so so I always knew that
Speaker 2: I would transition to acting. And I went to dim
Speaker 2: School of Fine Arts and was a dance major there
Speaker 2: and did and then I did started doing some musicals
Speaker 2: in high school and college and started studying acting in college.
Speaker 2: I went to Indiana University, then transferred to Marymount Manhattan
Speaker 2: College and I have a degree in dance, but I started
Speaker 2: doing theater when I was in college. I did my
Speaker 2: first movie when I was in college. And after I
Speaker 2: graduated and realized I was I needed to like stop
Speaker 2: being in denial about being trans. I was like, well,
Speaker 2: there's no transactors. And this was the mid to late nineties,
Speaker 2: and I was like, what am I going to do?
Speaker 3: You know? So then I went to fashion school for
Speaker 3: like a year.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, so you you looked at the scope,
Speaker 1: at the landscape of the industry, the acting industry, and said,
Speaker 1: there's no transactors. This is there's no there's no career
Speaker 1: path here. But I'm so I'm going to go into fashion.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: That was really fascinating.
Speaker 2: I knew trans people who were in fashion. I knew
Speaker 2: trans people who were buyers and who worked in merchandising,
Speaker 2: and so I was thinking I was going to I
Speaker 2: was studying merchandising at FAT and I did it for like,
Speaker 2: you know, you know, two semesters for like a year,
Speaker 2: and I was like, I love fashion, but I don't.
Speaker 3: Want to do this.
Speaker 2: So I did a movie in college my senior year,
Speaker 2: and like someone saw me on the subway and thought
Speaker 2: I'd be perfume for this movie and did a movie
Speaker 2: then and then I someone saw me in a club.
Speaker 3: I auditioned for a film. I did another film.
Speaker 2: My little roles were coming around here and there for
Speaker 2: a drag or trance and they didn't know the difference
Speaker 2: between dragon trans at the time, and so I was
Speaker 2: I was getting these little roles, and then I just
Speaker 2: was sort of like And then there was a woman
Speaker 2: named Candace Edmondson who I worked with a coffee shop
Speaker 2: in Union Square, and she was like, oh, you're acting.
Speaker 2: You should come to this acting class. And a woman
Speaker 2: named Susan Batson was still teaching. Now she was studying
Speaker 2: with Susan. I went to Susan's class and it did.
Speaker 2: It changed my life and I was like, now it's
Speaker 2: the time to get serious about acting. I don't know
Speaker 2: if you know Susan, but she she well, she she
Speaker 2: while she coaches Juliete Binos, Nicole kid Mean, She's worked
Speaker 2: with Nicole for years. She has a beautiful book on
Speaker 2: acting called Truth and she has her own process. But
Speaker 2: she studied with Lee Strasberg. She was a member of
Speaker 2: the act. She is a member of the Actors Studio,
Speaker 2: and she also studied with Uda Hogen and has a
Speaker 2: great book called Truth about Acting. And when I started
Speaker 2: studying with Susan, it really I fell in love with
Speaker 2: acting and I really began to understand the power of
Speaker 2: the art form to change hearts and minds.
Speaker 3: There was a there was a directive.
Speaker 2: Susan always would ask us, implore us when we had
Speaker 2: a character, what do you want to say to the
Speaker 2: world about this character, about the humanity of this character.
Speaker 2: Tom Brangle, who was one of the teachers, he always
Speaker 2: gave this example of when he had to he did
Speaker 2: a play and he had to play a rapist, and
Speaker 2: he was just like, what do I want to say
Speaker 2: to the world about this rapist, horrible character that I'm
Speaker 2: you know, a person who's done a horrible thing. And
Speaker 2: for him it was like if you don't you know,
Speaker 2: for parents, if you don't you know, love your children,
Speaker 2: your child could turn into this horrible person.
Speaker 3: So there was a there was.
Speaker 2: Always something attached to the work that was bigger than
Speaker 2: the work. But then there was also a call to
Speaker 2: delve is deep into your psyche as possible to show
Speaker 2: her whole thing is to create a walking, talking human
Speaker 2: being and to always find the bottom of the character.
Speaker 3: And when you really commit.
Speaker 2: She helped me understand and I think all her students
Speaker 2: understanding when you fully commit to the process of delving
Speaker 2: deep into your psyche to give those things over to character.
Speaker 2: So many details, so many layers, and when you layer that,
Speaker 2: when you create a full human being, that that can
Speaker 2: shift molecule so that that could change the world. And
Speaker 2: then in two thousand and seven, a woman named Candace
Speaker 2: Kane became the first transactor to have a recurring role
Speaker 2: in a primetime TV show that shows dirty sexy money.
Speaker 2: That made me believe it was possible. And I've been
Speaker 2: studying seriously since two thousand and one. And so then
Speaker 2: I printed five hundred postcards that said Laverne Cox is
Speaker 2: the answer to all your transcender acting needs. Before then
Speaker 2: I was auditioning for things and not sort of like
Speaker 2: necessarily disclosing my transness. And then I got four meetings
Speaker 2: and one of them was with my current manager of
Speaker 2: Paul Jleppo, And we've been together since two thousand and seven,
Speaker 2: which is amazing.
Speaker 1: And that's crazy with somebody that long.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been a hard road.
Speaker 2: I mean, if I was listening to your podcast in
Speaker 2: your conversation with Mark Ruffullo, and you were sort of
Speaker 2: talking about going on auditions and a lot of my
Speaker 2: colleagues who were not trans have have had so many
Speaker 2: more auditions than I have.
Speaker 3: There just haven't been that many roles.
Speaker 2: And so I've just been really I mean, when The
Speaker 2: Orange's New Black Moment came along in twenty twelve, I
Speaker 2: was going to quit acting. I just turned forty, and
Speaker 2: I thought, you know, who do you think you are
Speaker 2: thinking that you can be an actor? And you're forty now,
Speaker 2: and you're black and you're trans, and no one's you know,
Speaker 2: had a mainstream career, and so I was going to go.
Speaker 3: I was about to apply to grad school.
Speaker 2: I was studying for my gre and I was about
Speaker 2: to apply to grad school and the Orange audition came
Speaker 2: along and I booked it and it changed my life.
Speaker 1: Wow, Sow. And of course you were so fantastic on
Speaker 1: that show, along with thanks everything since then and now
Speaker 1: now you must just turn down work left and right, etc.
Speaker 1: I mean not sure. You seem like you're really really busy.
Speaker 2: I'm busy, yes, and I'm and I'm also I am picky.
Speaker 2: I don't get you know, it's still don't get a
Speaker 2: lot of offers. I do turn down a lot of things, though,
Speaker 2: because I don't want to repeat myself, or it needs
Speaker 2: to be for me. It needs to be working with
Speaker 2: great actors or working with great directors, or.
Speaker 3: A story that I really.
Speaker 2: Want to tell, and time is precious, and you know,
Speaker 2: so a lot of it it's about the director, it's
Speaker 2: about the story. I do turn down a lot of things,
Speaker 2: but I don't get a lot of offers either. But
Speaker 2: I'm lucky that I get to sort of host Red
Speaker 2: Carpets and I still do a lot of speaking engagements
Speaker 2: and we do a lot and do my podcast, and
Speaker 2: so I do get to do a lot of different
Speaker 2: things and so have multiple income streams. But then it
Speaker 2: also keeps me creatively excited. So the certainly there are
Speaker 2: a lot of my colleagues who work who you know,
Speaker 2: who have four Immy nominations, who act way more than
Speaker 2: I act. But I'm lucky that I have other things
Speaker 2: that I also get to do. But I'm hoping I
Speaker 2: have a couple of projects in the can. I'm hoping
Speaker 2: people will see the work and see the range I think,
Speaker 2: you know, I still have to prove myself. I think
Speaker 2: there's a lot I think people, you know, this business,
Speaker 2: people will put you in a box and think that
Speaker 2: there's only one thing.
Speaker 1: They need to do.
Speaker 2: And I am looking forward to people seeing the range
Speaker 2: of what I can do. And I'm very committed to
Speaker 2: being a better actor and playing different kinds of roles.
Speaker 2: And I can't wait for the world to see the things,
Speaker 2: the new things that we've done that are.
Speaker 3: Very different than what we've done before.
Speaker 2: So I'm excited about that and hopefully it'll click with
Speaker 2: people and directors and casting people will see it and.
Speaker 3: Say, oh, she can do this too, and oh she
Speaker 3: can do that.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 1: That's always the challenge, right is yeah that you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've always felt that starting out. I was
Speaker 1: kind of even told by people, this is the type
Speaker 1: of thing that you're going to do and it's going
Speaker 1: to be whatever it was in my case, you know,
Speaker 1: boy next door or you know whatever, and fighting against
Speaker 1: that and taking those risks and trying to to uh
Speaker 1: because Hollywood really does want you to do the thing.
Speaker 1: It's not even so much the last thing they saw
Speaker 1: you in, but it's the thing that you've been the
Speaker 1: most successful at They want you because they figure that
Speaker 1: if they could make money, you know, from the thing
Speaker 1: that you did, well, then they want you to do
Speaker 1: it again so they can make the money from the
Speaker 1: thing that you did.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, being a black trans woman and with
Speaker 2: the environment that's still anti trans now being commercially viable,
Speaker 2: it's like a tricky thing and it's something I think
Speaker 2: a lot about, and I think a lot about reaching
Speaker 2: bigger audiences and more diverse audiences, which is going to
Speaker 2: be really important from my career going the business part
Speaker 2: of my career going forward. So it's something I think
Speaker 2: a lot about. And hopefully my hope is that what
Speaker 2: I've always believed was Susan instilled in me and all
Speaker 2: her students is that if the work is truly human
Speaker 2: and you really do the work, it will transcend all categories.
Speaker 2: It will transcend that it doesn't matter what you look like.
Speaker 2: She always would talk about Woopy Goldberg and that she
Speaker 2: didn't look like anyone else, you know, and the power
Speaker 2: of the work that she did and color purple specifically
Speaker 2: then and as a comedian she was just so good
Speaker 2: and so people connected to her and related to her
Speaker 2: and she made us laugh and she made us feel
Speaker 2: that it didn't matter that she didn't look like anybody else.
Speaker 2: And so this is my charge as an artist that
Speaker 2: I'm not like anybody else.
Speaker 3: And I think that's wonderful.
Speaker 2: But I that that, but I must be I must
Speaker 2: be exceptional, you know. And so I'm probably my biggest
Speaker 2: critic in terms of my work, and I try what
Speaker 2: I do. Love about acting though it's my my my
Speaker 2: prayer before this podcast today and my prayer before I work,
Speaker 2: it's always God, give me permission to do this imperfectly
Speaker 2: and allow me to be of service. And so a's
Speaker 2: critical as I am of everything that I.
Speaker 1: Do writing that down right now imperfectly and of service.
Speaker 2: Thank you that I But so the I have to
Speaker 2: let go of the perfectionism though that's so that I
Speaker 2: have to consciously say this is this is going to
Speaker 2: be perfect, and that's okay. And I love acting because
Speaker 2: that's there's something about acting as because I sang too,
Speaker 2: and when you sing and I sing opera, when you sing,
Speaker 2: either you're hitting the note or you're not. You know,
Speaker 2: there is a precision that's required. But with acting, there's
Speaker 2: so many different choices. I love when I get to
Speaker 2: do a scene a zillion different ways, because then I
Speaker 2: don't I don't become beholden to I wish they'd use
Speaker 2: that take, even though that just happened to be recently.
Speaker 3: But the project I give.
Speaker 2: I like to give a lot of options to directors,
Speaker 2: and then it helps me artistically to not get stuck
Speaker 2: in the scene should be just this way.
Speaker 1: So I'm with it.
Speaker 3: I love playing different ways.
Speaker 1: That's a way to go. I totally agree. I mean,
Speaker 1: once you understand the character, you know, if you really
Speaker 1: understand the character, then there's no reason not to try
Speaker 1: different different things, because if you're already inhabiting that person
Speaker 1: that just like we, you know, we react to different
Speaker 1: things in the course of our day. I love it
Speaker 1: when I speak to actors who really uh are are
Speaker 1: are so uh vocal and proud and into the fact
Speaker 1: that the work that we do. It can often be
Speaker 1: so dismissed, you know, as it's kind of like we
Speaker 1: just get a lot of money for looking good and
Speaker 1: wearing makeup, and and people will say to you things like,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't understand how you could learn all
Speaker 1: those lines, which you know, as we all know, is
Speaker 1: the least of your problems. I mean, it was really
Speaker 1: it was really about learning lines. You know, we could
Speaker 1: all be whatever politicians or something. But I mean, I
Speaker 1: think that you know, it's I love to hear your
Speaker 1: enthusiasm and and uh and and love of the craft
Speaker 1: because I feel the same way. I really still loving it.
Speaker 1: I've been doing it way longer than you have, and
Speaker 1: I just I absolutely still find all of the nuances
Speaker 1: in all of the ways that other people use that process,
Speaker 1: and and and the fact that you know, you you
Speaker 1: slid from one very specific kind of technique and then
Speaker 1: discovered another one, And it sounds like in some ways
Speaker 1: you're kind of creating your own as life goes on.
Speaker 1: That that takes.
Speaker 3: Different calling call for a different things.
Speaker 1: They different and different actors and different directors, and every
Speaker 1: situation is super different. You know, you mentioned them just
Speaker 1: in Passing Opera. And I'm curious about that because I'm,
Speaker 1: you know, sitting on this side of the of the
Speaker 1: of the of the microphone, which is kind of a
Speaker 1: new thing for me. I'm I'm I find myself echoing
Speaker 1: back questions that I get all the time because I
Speaker 1: play in a band and a songwriter and singer, and
Speaker 1: so this is something that I get. How do you
Speaker 1: how do you feel uh performed, performing as an actor
Speaker 1: relates to something that you would do vocally or in
Speaker 1: in Are there similarities or differences between the music part
Speaker 1: of your life and the and the acting part of
Speaker 1: your life.
Speaker 2: I mean the similarity is with with with opera is
Speaker 2: often there is a character if you're singing an aria
Speaker 2: from an opera. I'm working at some material from Carmen now,
Speaker 2: so there's a character. She's a character, and I'm working
Speaker 2: around the Prey de Rampa de Seville and it's a
Speaker 2: scene with Jean Jose and it's the it's a moment
Speaker 2: in Carmen when she's been arrested and John Jose is
Speaker 2: the officer and she's been arrested. He's she's been arrested
Speaker 2: because she's got into a fight with some of the
Speaker 2: girls with cigarette factory, and she's seducing Don Jose while
Speaker 2: she's sort of her hands are tied behind her back,
Speaker 2: and so she's, you know, singing to herself and seducing
Speaker 2: him and it's so much fun. And so right now
Speaker 2: I have to remember that this opera thing is for
Speaker 2: me and that it's supposed to be fun, and yes,
Speaker 2: I will continue to work on my technique and I
Speaker 2: love to sing an f above high see glory, but
Speaker 2: it doesn't come out every day.
Speaker 3: There is a video on Instagram right now me singing in.
Speaker 1: I got to check that out that for those of
Speaker 1: you that don't know, that is a very high note.
Speaker 2: It's a very high note. And it's fun that I
Speaker 2: that that comes out. Sometimes it doesn't come out every day,
Speaker 2: but so yeah, I love working on technique as a singer.
Speaker 2: But then I do this because it's fun like this,
Speaker 2: No one's asking me to think, no one cares or
Speaker 2: you know, so this needs to be fun for me.
Speaker 2: So I'm going to work on the Carmen and working
Speaker 2: on some metso stuff where I can probably act more
Speaker 2: and just have a little scrind and have it be
Speaker 2: a little less technical, even though I will continue to
Speaker 2: work on my technique.
Speaker 1: So you know, I love it when people do multiple
Speaker 1: things in their in their lives, which you've done, you know,
Speaker 1: time and time again. You you you uh, you know,
Speaker 1: as you mentioned done your red carpet stuff and opera,
Speaker 1: your amazing acting career.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: You're also a very strong advocate for different kinds of
Speaker 1: human rights. And I think that's a pretty good segue
Speaker 1: to bring in the Chase Strangio today. Who is from
Speaker 1: the A C l U And who is you have
Speaker 1: invited to join us? Hey you Chase? How you doing?
Speaker 5: I'm doing well.
Speaker 6: I've been very intrigued by your conversation and excited excited
Speaker 6: to be here with you.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 1: Laverne mentioned in passing that, uh, you know that we
Speaker 1: were at a a dark moment in this country in
Speaker 1: terms of backlash against people with trans writes, and I
Speaker 1: have to say, I mean, I just there are times
Speaker 1: when I really really do feel like we are taking
Speaker 1: a step back from you know, even five years ago. Uh.
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering, first off, what is the what is
Speaker 1: the work that you are doing around this very specific issue,
Speaker 1: and and what is it that you think has has
Speaker 1: uh has gotten us here?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, it's it's funny that you you you
Speaker 6: both started talking about Footlooth because there's.
Speaker 4: Moments when in this current landscape.
Speaker 6: Where you start to look at the level of constraint
Speaker 6: and restrictions on people's ability to experience joy, pleasure a
Speaker 6: secular life, and you almost think about the conditions and
Speaker 6: footloots at times like we are moving in this in
Speaker 6: this direction, both in the United States and globally, where
Speaker 6: you have the rise of far right governments happening alongside,
Speaker 6: of course, these very particular types of restrictions over bodily autonomy,
Speaker 6: over the family, over the possibilities for one's sense of
Speaker 6: imagination and self expression and self actualization.
Speaker 4: And what that looks like in.
Speaker 6: Practice is fighting back against laws, not just those targeting
Speaker 6: the trans community, those restricting what our kids can learn
Speaker 6: in school, those constraining what we can access in public libraries.
Speaker 6: Obviously massive changing conditions in the overturning of ree View
Speaker 6: Waid with the Dobbs decision, continued voter suppression since the
Speaker 6: Supreme Court overturned the Voting Rights Act. So we're having
Speaker 6: these intersecting realities affecting people's lives.
Speaker 4: And then in.
Speaker 6: Particular for trans people, there is just an existential salt
Speaker 6: on our existence, one that is very much focused on kids,
Speaker 6: young people, and adolescents in particular in schools, but also
Speaker 6: that has grave implications not just for trans adults but
Speaker 6: for all of us, because this is an entry point
Speaker 6: into a larger incursion into our body autonomy, our freedom,
Speaker 6: and our ability to live full and free lives.
Speaker 1: I'm curious for you, Chase. Obviously you found your way
Speaker 1: to this work and to the ACL I want to
Speaker 1: as you've got the microphone, so I'm very interested in
Speaker 1: what brought you to this work And tell me a
Speaker 1: little bit about your specific story.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm someone who you know, sort of my tools
Speaker 5: for my survival, my way of managing growing up when
Speaker 5: I you know, I didn't have access to representations of
Speaker 5: queerness and transness.
Speaker 6: I'm forty one years old. I didn't grow up at
Speaker 6: a time when there was uh the Internet available to me,
Speaker 6: So I didn't even really understand the breadth of possibility.
Speaker 6: And so my my weapons, so to speak, or my
Speaker 6: survival battle tool was my mind. And and so you know,
Speaker 6: also Verne's sort of notion of perfectionism, how often we
Speaker 6: use perfectionism as a as a survival as a survival
Speaker 6: mechanism when we're feel when we feel unlovable, we don't
Speaker 6: see a place for ourselves. And so for me find
Speaker 6: you know, fighting, you know, WY way to survive in
Speaker 6: school into adulthood was about intellectual pursuits, which ultimately drew
Speaker 6: me to college, which I had the privilege to attend,
Speaker 6: and then and then to to law school ultimately, and
Speaker 6: and in part I went to law school because I
Speaker 6: saw that as a legitimizing forces.
Speaker 4: I was becoming more aware of my.
Speaker 6: Queerness and my transness, not understanding how I would exist
Speaker 6: in a world that you know, fundamentally rejected transgressions. Uh uh,
Speaker 6: you know, people's transgressions from the gender binary. I mean
Speaker 6: went to college at the height of the backlash to
Speaker 6: the very early successes of fights for marriage equality after
Speaker 6: Massachusetts legalized same sex marriage in two thousand and three.
Speaker 4: You know, you had the George W.
Speaker 6: Bush years where more than half the country constitutionally bans marriage.
Speaker 4: Equality for same sex couples.
Speaker 6: And so as you're growing up and coming of age
Speaker 6: in his time, for me, my question was, well, who
Speaker 6: am I going to be and how am I gonna
Speaker 6: How am I going to find a way to navigate
Speaker 6: in this world? And so I ultimately did become a lawyer,
Speaker 6: both to serve my community as a transperson, to fight
Speaker 6: as a trans lawyer for trans causes, but also, you know,
Speaker 6: if I'm honest, to find a way to be someone
Speaker 6: who could be seen and taken seriously in society and
Speaker 6: that is something that I think it would be it
Speaker 6: would be dishonest not to admit that that was part
Speaker 6: of the journey. And I ultimately found my way to
Speaker 6: the ACLU eleven years ago, and I've been here working
Speaker 6: on behalf of LGBTQ rights and justice in the courts
Speaker 6: and the legislatures and also in the public conversation. And
Speaker 6: Laverne and I have worked closely together for the last
Speaker 6: ten years or so because I think we both recognize
Speaker 6: at the end of the day, you can fight every
Speaker 6: single battle, and in the courts you can win some
Speaker 6: of those battles, but if you're not changing people's empathetic impulses,
Speaker 6: if you're not changing the cultural context, those those legal
Speaker 6: and policy changes are not going to be durable. And
Speaker 6: so so much of the work is about, you know,
Speaker 6: the theater of the courtroom, but it's so much more
Speaker 6: about the theater of society, and how are we going
Speaker 6: to ultimately transform people's understanding of our relationship to each
Speaker 6: other as human beings and and and our you know,
Speaker 6: sort of deservedness of our humanity.
Speaker 2: Connect Please, I want to add to that because I
Speaker 2: think so much of what has brought us to this
Speaker 2: moment is the sort of collision of media, media propaganda
Speaker 2: that is literally affecting what's happening in the courts, the
Speaker 2: propaganda that dehumanizes trans people on every single level. And
Speaker 2: for me right now, it's so important that we understand
Speaker 2: that what is what anti trans people have done very
Speaker 2: successfully is dehumanized trans people through conversations about our focusing
Speaker 2: on our bodies, focusing on transition, using sports, and through
Speaker 2: that dehumanization they've been able to successfully take away our rights.
Speaker 3: Chase is challenging these laws in the courts.
Speaker 2: We'll see what happens, but we a huge part of
Speaker 2: this project needs to be rehumanizing, not just trans people,
Speaker 2: but everybody.
Speaker 3: We are in a.
Speaker 2: Culture right now where we see so many people dehumanizing
Speaker 2: each other. And Brene Brown reminds us in her book
Speaker 2: Braving the Wilderness, at the beginning of every single genocide
Speaker 2: was dehumanization. So we have to if we are interested
Speaker 2: in not having genocides and celebrating the humanity of everyone,
Speaker 2: we have to really look at the ways in which
Speaker 2: we use dehumanizing language understanding. And it's not for me,
Speaker 2: it's not about policing language, because I'm not a language police,
Speaker 2: But I think I believe in freedom of speech, but
Speaker 2: I think it's about understanding that when we talk about
Speaker 2: trans people and reduce us to chromosomes or testosterone levels
Speaker 2: or genitalia, that that is objectifying us, in dehumanizing us,
Speaker 2: and that leads to the conditions that where our rights
Speaker 2: can be taken away, where we can just be murdered
Speaker 2: in streets with impunity and people are just like, well,
Speaker 2: you're not human anyway, right. So the work, and this
Speaker 2: is what I love about being an artist, and this
Speaker 2: is what the work we can do in the media
Speaker 2: is to humanize trans people. And we are an uphel
Speaker 2: battle because there is a very organized right wing media
Speaker 2: ecosystem that is committed to dehumanizing trans people. And I
Speaker 2: think it's not just what trans people. We have to
Speaker 2: be careful about how we use language about anyone we
Speaker 2: disagree with. I believe that like so often it's so
Speaker 2: easy when someone did that we disagree with, says something
Speaker 2: or does something, that it becomes really easy to use
Speaker 2: the humanizing language against them. And I think we have
Speaker 2: to fight against that because when we dehumanize other people,
Speaker 2: we dehumanize ourselves.
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Speaker 1: Chase, you brought this up about, you know, a culture building,
Speaker 1: a culture of empathy and a culture of understanding that
Speaker 1: that somehow, some sometimes does not exist in our society.
Speaker 1: And you know, I am the perfect demographic for the
Speaker 1: person that sometimes looks at and I've heard this from
Speaker 1: from people that I know. You know, look, they look
Speaker 1: at something like a way of speaking, you know, pronouns
Speaker 1: or or or or language that you mentioned language Laverne,
Speaker 1: And the reaction is, oh, wow, I can't say anything anymore,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? It's that it's that point
Speaker 1: of view of wanting desperately to hold on to some
Speaker 1: kind of idea of what the status quo is. And
Speaker 1: I wonder for both of you, how do you address that?
Speaker 1: I mean, just just to. In my opinion, the idea
Speaker 1: that you can learn something new when you're an old guy, right,
Speaker 1: is the most beautiful possibility there is in the world.
Speaker 1: You can learn to adjust your way of thinking. That's
Speaker 1: how you stop dying. Really, you know, that's that's that's
Speaker 1: what that's what you know when you when you're stuck
Speaker 1: in one sort of mindset, you've got one foot in
Speaker 1: the grape. So I'm just wondering if you have any
Speaker 1: suggestions and how to deal with that when that comes up.
Speaker 1: And when you hear that, oh my gosh, I can't
Speaker 1: you know, yeah.
Speaker 6: I mean, I guess my initial response to the idea
Speaker 6: when people say, well, we can't say anything anymore. You
Speaker 6: can do You can say whatever you want. It's just
Speaker 6: whether there are consequences to what you say. And that's
Speaker 6: the reality is that there are. We live in a
Speaker 6: society where norms change, the consequences of our actions change.
Speaker 6: It's like when we have conversations about acceptable levels of
Speaker 6: violence against women in the workplace, for you know, this
Speaker 6: reaction of men and the saying, well, now I can't.
Speaker 4: Talk to a woman. It's like, well, I have a
Speaker 4: lot of questions.
Speaker 6: It does that you can't talk because because what you're
Speaker 6: you are incapable of talking to a woman without these
Speaker 6: certain things, or you're afraid of these consequences. We have
Speaker 6: to have a more robust conversation about what what people
Speaker 6: are saying they can and can't do. And often what
Speaker 6: that means is there are different consequences for me doing
Speaker 6: a certain thing. You can still choose to do it,
Speaker 6: you just then have a different set of consequences. But
Speaker 6: I think what's really hard. I mean, I think about
Speaker 6: myself as a parent and so many other parents. I
Speaker 6: think if you ask people what is one reason you
Speaker 6: have kids, and I think a lot of people will
Speaker 6: say it is really beautiful to see the world anew
Speaker 6: to experience a newness to things that you become jaded on.
Speaker 6: And this is an example of that, Like we want
Speaker 6: the world to change. How Like to your point, Kevin,
Speaker 6: how dull and uninteresting a life if nothing changes as
Speaker 6: you age.
Speaker 4: And into your your your older adult years.
Speaker 6: And so it's on the one hand, you want to
Speaker 6: have kids and you want to see the world a
Speaker 6: new but you want to control all of the contours
Speaker 6: of that. I think that that's, you know, a contradiction
Speaker 6: in terms and I would say, you know, yes, there
Speaker 6: are moments when I have an eleven year old and
Speaker 6: I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about,
Speaker 6: but our impulse to say and therefore I want to
Speaker 6: dismiss it instead of to say, Wow, how much more
Speaker 6: exciting could my world be?
Speaker 4: You know comes from a place of fear, and people
Speaker 4: are often fearful of what they don't understand, and that
Speaker 4: makes sense, but I think we're all much more enriched
Speaker 4: when we say, huh, what would it look like to
Speaker 4: incorporate that into my sense of possibility? Instead of trying
Speaker 4: to keep things exactly as how I feel most comfortable.
Speaker 3: I may, I may, I may I. I mean, I
Speaker 3: hear it all the time.
Speaker 2: I consume tons of media and like people are constantly saying,
Speaker 2: you can't say anything anymore. People are so sensitive And
Speaker 2: again I'm not I mean, I'm an artist and I
Speaker 2: believe in freedom of speech. But for me, when I
Speaker 2: I had a moment on Twitter many years ago, and
Speaker 2: I'm from Alabama and my homestate passed a crazy abortion restriction,
Speaker 2: and I retweeted a friend who said a woman's body
Speaker 2: a woman's choice in a story, and then a transman
Speaker 2: tweeted me and said, you're really going to erase transmen
Speaker 2: and non binary people in this tweet Laverta.
Speaker 3: I was just like, oh no, here we go. And
Speaker 3: it was a moment.
Speaker 2: I just remember feeling it was so uncomfortable and I
Speaker 2: felt like called out and I felt so it was
Speaker 2: so uncomfortable and so awkward, and I remember tweeting I
Speaker 2: was like, thank you for pointing this out. I'll take
Speaker 2: this into consideration, I really and I thought about a
Speaker 2: lot about it, and at the moment, in the moment,
Speaker 2: I was like, oh god, I don't know if people
Speaker 2: want to think about transman being pregnant right now. And
Speaker 2: so I had all these things and I was like,
Speaker 2: can I have a moment of solidarity with my you know, sisters?
Speaker 2: And it was like but then what that moment was about,
Speaker 2: though for me it's someone who was interested in the
Speaker 2: humanity of trans people, is that, like, I don't want
Speaker 2: to erase the experience of trans people. So it's not
Speaker 2: about like this trans guy being super sensitive. It's about
Speaker 2: me wanting to make him feel included and make him
Speaker 2: feel like he's being seen. And there are real life
Speaker 2: consequences when we don't when people who can get pregnant
Speaker 2: and their healthcare needs are not being addressed because they
Speaker 2: don't identify as women. So there actually are material consequences
Speaker 2: when we don't consider consider people.
Speaker 3: And so the language piece.
Speaker 2: Language is how we communicate and how we relate information.
Speaker 2: It's not about not being able to say something for me.
Speaker 2: It's about understanding the consequences of what we say and
Speaker 2: how it affects the real lived experiences of people.
Speaker 1: These are really tiny adjustments when you really look at
Speaker 1: it in the bigger picture of things. These are not hardships.
Speaker 1: To try to address somebody in the way that they
Speaker 1: would be more comfortable being addressed. To try to keep
Speaker 1: your hands to yourself, you know, to try to think about,
Speaker 1: you know, not not joking in the way that you
Speaker 1: joked around on the set in the eighties, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, whatever happens to be, they're not really big,
Speaker 1: huge adjustments to make. Let's face it. I mean, they're
Speaker 1: they're they're they're they're easy.
Speaker 2: Sometimes there are moments are of discomfort that one might have.
Speaker 2: That the moment on Twitter when I was called out
Speaker 2: publicly by this transman, it was very uncomfortable, and so I.
Speaker 3: Think we being able to sit.
Speaker 2: With discomfort and being able to distinguish between being uncomfortable
Speaker 2: and being shamed or being you know, having some granularity
Speaker 2: around what's what we're feeling and having some sort of
Speaker 2: self awareness and self accountability I think becomes really important.
Speaker 2: And then also being able to interrogate our own relationship
Speaker 2: to power.
Speaker 3: And I think that.
Speaker 2: I sort of hate the phrase check your privilege, but
Speaker 2: I think it's important for It's been very important for me.
Speaker 2: Is I've you know, even as a black trans woman
Speaker 2: from a working class background that like now as a
Speaker 2: famous person, as a person with some class privilege that
Speaker 2: I have, I'm privileged now. So it's like me constantly
Speaker 2: being willing and willing to be uncomfortable to interrogate my
Speaker 2: privilege is to hold myself accountable, to try to be
Speaker 2: accountable to the people in my life, to my to
Speaker 2: the public platform that I have, and the people that
Speaker 2: I represent, to try to be accountable and like all
Speaker 2: of that is really can be really uncomfortable and very difficult,
Speaker 2: but hopefully we can begin to do that with the
Speaker 2: people in our lives and our inner circles, and maybe
Speaker 2: I would love to I'm trying to do this publicly.
Speaker 2: I'm trying as much as possible model way in which
Speaker 2: we can publicly create safe space so that we can
Speaker 2: have conversations where people don't shut down and feel attacked
Speaker 2: and so then go into defense mode.
Speaker 1: Well, well, speaking with a lot, Well no, I'm I
Speaker 1: you do a lot of work in terms of being
Speaker 1: public about all of these things, which, which you know, listen,
Speaker 1: is fantastic. We we don't all do. Chase, you're here
Speaker 1: with the A. C. L U and I. I've kept
Speaker 1: you guys for so long, and I really do appreciate
Speaker 1: you both being here, but I'm curious from you, Chase,
Speaker 1: at this moment in time. It's two pronged question. Number one,
Speaker 1: what are the most pressing issues that we have right
Speaker 1: now in the in this country and in the world,
Speaker 1: and most specifically our call to action? How can people
Speaker 1: help and get get involved and and uh and and
Speaker 1: you know, try to turn things around.
Speaker 4: Well, we went from a situation where there was zero
Speaker 4: laws in.
Speaker 6: Twenty twenty one that banned healthcare for transgender adolescence.
Speaker 4: Zero.
Speaker 6: So in the span of two years, we went from
Speaker 6: zero laws to now we have twenty two states that
Speaker 6: categorically ban evidence based medicine for transgender adolescence. And I
Speaker 6: think what's important for people to understand, especially for parents
Speaker 6: to understand, is this is a healthcare that's only being
Speaker 6: prescribed with the consent of parents and the recommendation of
Speaker 6: every major medical association in the United States, and the
Speaker 6: state is coming in and saying we know better, we're
Speaker 6: going to take away that one option. And what that's
Speaker 6: done is to take away healthcare that people have been
Speaker 6: relying on in almost half the country, increasing the demand
Speaker 6: on other states if people can even travel to other states,
Speaker 6: but also for those who can't, are making it close
Speaker 6: to impossible. And obviously there's an outside sense of sort
Speaker 6: of how many young people are getting this care because
Speaker 6: of how much coverage there is, but of course it's
Speaker 6: a very very.
Speaker 4: Small percentage of people. But the state our life or death.
Speaker 6: And so right now we're fighting in the courts trying
Speaker 6: to stop the state, just like in the context of abortion,
Speaker 6: just like in the contexts of other restrictions on bodily autonomy,
Speaker 6: stop to state from intruding on our ability to make
Speaker 6: the decisions with our parents, with our children that are
Speaker 6: best for us in accordance with the recommendations.
Speaker 4: Of our doctors. We are now asking the Supreme Court
Speaker 4: to review one of these cases. Many there may be.
Speaker 6: Several cases involving transgender rights going up to the Supreme Court,
Speaker 6: So the states could not be higher as well as
Speaker 6: of course, we're building up to a presidential election. We
Speaker 6: know that some of the candidates running are some of
Speaker 6: the most anti transpoliticians in the country, including Nicki Haley,
Speaker 6: including Governor DeSantis, including Donald Trump.
Speaker 4: And so what does it mean if you shift the executive.
Speaker 6: And you have people who fundamentally want to eradicate trans
Speaker 6: life leading our country.
Speaker 4: So that is the nature of the threat. It truly
Speaker 4: is life or death.
Speaker 6: And just as a reminder, people are trying to take
Speaker 6: away our ability to determine that's right for us.
Speaker 4: This doesn't concern them.
Speaker 6: You know, one person's medical care that they and their
Speaker 6: parents and their doctor agree is necessary does not implicate
Speaker 6: another person's life, safety, or freedom.
Speaker 4: But taking it away from us does implicate ours. So
Speaker 4: as a call to action, and.
Speaker 6: Just to make it brief, I would say, first and foremost,
Speaker 6: we all have the ability to change the circumstances and
Speaker 6: conversations in our lives and communities.
Speaker 4: So you know, to your point, Kevin, when you're on set, if.
Speaker 6: You're in your kids school, just make more room for
Speaker 6: people to exist, because so much of this is playing
Speaker 6: out in the public discourse. So don't say I can't
Speaker 6: use the pronouns like you use a pronouns all the time.
Speaker 4: Is there a package coming today, Yeah, they're bringing it
Speaker 4: in an hour. We do it. It's actually very common.
Speaker 4: And in the second we shut something down, we just
Speaker 4: make less space.
Speaker 6: So maybe it takes you a little while, maybe it
Speaker 6: is hard, but how can we make more space in
Speaker 6: our lives? And then also, you know, give money when
Speaker 6: you can, share resources when you can, and think about
Speaker 6: your political engagement, not just at the federal level, but at.
Speaker 4: This local level as well.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 6: So much is happening in our school boards, so much
Speaker 6: is happening in our city council. So much is happening
Speaker 6: in our state legislatures.
Speaker 1: That's so true. It's so true. On the state level,
Speaker 1: it's so important.
Speaker 2: And I can just add the fight is happening on
Speaker 2: the state level. But desantists Trump have both said that
Speaker 2: they will ban gender firm and care nationally.
Speaker 3: They are committed to that.
Speaker 2: If we have a Republican president they plan to ban
Speaker 2: gender firming care nationally. And it's not just for about children,
Speaker 2: it's everyone. There are states now that are banning gender
Speaker 2: firm and care also for adults. And what I would
Speaker 2: say to that, for everyone who's out there who wants
Speaker 2: to say, well, I think whether or not trans children
Speaker 2: should access gender or firming care that's up for debate,
Speaker 2: I would say it's not. As Chase said, this care
Speaker 2: is Every major medical association says that this care is
Speaker 2: healthy and it is safe, and politicians should not be
Speaker 2: involved in that period. Point blank, My existence, my access
Speaker 2: to healthcare should not be up for debate. It is
Speaker 2: none of your business. And I would love for people
Speaker 2: to say, when they hear people say this, we should
Speaker 2: be debating this.
Speaker 3: No, we should not.
Speaker 2: We should allow trans people to exist on their own terms,
Speaker 2: have conversations with their doctors, with their parents, and the
Speaker 2: government should have nothing to do with it.
Speaker 1: It's been absolutely up thrilling to hear both of you
Speaker 1: and your obviously personal and heartfelt opinions and the work
Speaker 1: that you're doing on this very very very important issue.
Speaker 1: Hey guys, thanks for listening to another episode of Six
Speaker 1: Degrees with Kevin Bacon and If you want to learn
Speaker 1: more about how the ACLU is fighting for trans rights
Speaker 1: and how you can get involved, head to their website
Speaker 1: ACLU dot org. You can find all the links in
Speaker 1: our show notes. Like what you hear, make sure you
Speaker 1: subscribe to the show and tune into the rest of
Speaker 1: our episodes so you can find Six Degrees with Kevin
Speaker 1: Bacon on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: See you next time.