WEBVTT - Changing The Cultural Context with Laverne Cox & ACLU 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:05.440 Hey, everybody. Today's guest has honestly made history, first by 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.680 making a mark in the award winning TV show Orange 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:12.000 Is a New Black, before building a career that spans 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:16.920 film and TV and music and so much more. Laverne 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:19.799 Cox is an inspirational figure for so many people, and 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:21.720 I'm so glad to have her on the show today. 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:26.599 Her story will blow you away, So lean in. I'm 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:38.760 glad you well. I am here today extremely excited to 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:43.800 welcome our guest, Laverne Cox. Laverne, it's so great. Have 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:46.400 we ever have our paths crossed? I feel like we 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:48.640 must have met someplace. I know we haven't worked in 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:49.879 anything together, but. 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:56.960 I think I would remember meeting the legendary Kevin Bacon. 0:00:57.400 --> 0:00:59.840 I think I would remember meeting the legendary Laverne. 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:02.560 We've never met. It's so funny. 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:05.560 I was in I was in La over the weekend 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:12.480 and Footloose was on TV with I know, and and 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:14.800 then Flash Dance came on and I just like, I'm 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:19.280 fifty one years old, so like my entire like elementary school, 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:23.600 like life, like flash before my eyes, and like it 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:26.560 was such it was such a moment. I know you've 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:30.480 done many things since Footloose, but that is how I 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:31.600 discovered you, and it. 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:35.360 Was just a lovely nostalgic moment that I had just 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:36.559 had just a few days ago. 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:38.959 Oh that's awesome. Yeah, well let me tell you. 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:40.039 Maybe I have to watch it. 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:43.320 The scary thing is it's the fortieth anniversary this year. 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:46.319 I'm not quite sure how to process that yet. But 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:49.520 in twenty twenty four, it'll be the fortieth anniversary of 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.800 making that movie. And you mentioned the Flash Dance, which 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:55.920 I believe came out either the year before or around 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:56.440 the same time. 0:01:56.520 --> 0:01:57.200 It's a year before. 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:01.840 Yeah, it was a year before, right, And funny side 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:05.880 story is that I had a I had a dance 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.120 double in the in the movie as well as as 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:13.280 well as and so did Jennifer Peele and they there 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:15.359 the two doubles got married. 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:18.720 Oh my god, I didn't know that. 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:22.840 Isn't that crazy story? That's yeah, I'm not sure it lasted, 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:24.480 but I know that they were married for a while. 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:27.040 That's amazing. God. 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:31.680 Flash Dance with My Life got Footlooths was so just 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:35.280 be nostalgia, the memories. Anyway, Well, it's so nice. 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:37.040 It's so nice to meet you, so nice to have 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:43.120 you here especially, uh, fantastic knowing that you liked that movie, 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:47.560 so thank you for that. Of course, I'm so speaking 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:51.080 about going going back. I know you probably hear this 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:54.720 a lot, but tell me about your your your journey 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:57.680 into this specifically into this profession, and what it was 0:02:57.720 --> 0:02:59.959 that brought you to our screen. 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:06.280 Oh my, you know. I it's been a long journey. 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:09.080 But I started out so when I when I was 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:12.280 a kid, I grew up in Mobile, Alabama, and when 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:16.680 I started walking, I started dancing and I always had 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:19.200 and so I was a dancer as a kid. So 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:23.520 footloose and flash dance were touchstones, as was fame for me, 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:26.280 and so I was. And so from about the age 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:28.360 of five years old till third grade, I begged my 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.079 mother to put me into dance classes, and finally, when 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:35.520 I was in third grade, I started studying tap in jazz. Mobil, 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:39.720 Alabama was not the best place for me to grow up. 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:41.800 I was bullied as a kid. I was you know, 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.200 beaten up and chased home from school every day because 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:46.240 I was this very fim child and I was assigned 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:46.920 male at birth. 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:49.160 And so when I would dance, I would. 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:52.440 Create these characters and have music in my head and 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:56.800 I would go someplace else, and it really saved my 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.400 life as a kid. It was this amazing, wonderful thing. 0:03:59.440 --> 0:03:59.880 I care your. 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:02.360 I used to start doing talent shows in third grade 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:06.200 and I choreographed a dance routine to man Hunt from 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:08.800 Flash Dance and been third grade. 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:10.840 Is there a videotape for that? 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:14.000 I wish we weren't. We were poor, so we didn't 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:14.880 like record this. 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:17.599 But can you imagine like this led a little black 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:21.760 kid doing a jazz dance routine to man Hunt from 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:25.360 Flash Dance. And I don't think I fully, I didn't 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:31.600 understand what I'm going on a man Hunt Mint. So 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:34.320 I've always been a performer, and I always knew that 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:36.960 I would transition to acting. Even when I was a dancer, 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:39.920 I felt like it was all sort of about characters. 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:41.159 It was all about sort. 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:44.920 Of creating personas, and so so I always knew that 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:47.840 I would transition to acting. And I went to dim 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:50.000 School of Fine Arts and was a dance major there 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:53.039 and did and then I did started doing some musicals 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:56.800 in high school and college and started studying acting in college. 0:04:56.800 --> 0:05:00.440 I went to Indiana University, then transferred to Marymount Manhattan 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.000 College and I have a degree in dance, but I started 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:05.719 doing theater when I was in college. I did my 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.520 first movie when I was in college. And after I 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:12.200 graduated and realized I was I needed to like stop 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:14.240 being in denial about being trans. I was like, well, 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:18.440 there's no transactors. And this was the mid to late nineties, 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:19.719 and I was like, what am I going to do? 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:21.600 You know? So then I went to fashion school for 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:22.200 like a year. 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:25.360 Oh yeah, okay, so you you looked at the scope, 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:29.400 at the landscape of the industry, the acting industry, and said, 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:32.400 there's no transactors. This is there's no there's no career 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:34.880 path here. But I'm so I'm going to go into fashion. 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:36.200 Yeah, I know. 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:37.680 That was really fascinating. 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.080 I knew trans people who were in fashion. I knew 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:43.160 trans people who were buyers and who worked in merchandising, 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:44.919 and so I was thinking I was going to I 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:47.880 was studying merchandising at FAT and I did it for like, 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:50.080 you know, you know, two semesters for like a year, 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:52.520 and I was like, I love fashion, but I don't. 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:52.760 Want to do this. 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.560 So I did a movie in college my senior year, 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:58.120 and like someone saw me on the subway and thought 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:01.159 I'd be perfume for this movie and did a movie 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:04.760 then and then I someone saw me in a club. 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:06.679 I auditioned for a film. I did another film. 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:09.960 My little roles were coming around here and there for 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:12.120 a drag or trance and they didn't know the difference 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:15.440 between dragon trans at the time, and so I was 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.000 I was getting these little roles, and then I just 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:21.200 was sort of like And then there was a woman 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:24.600 named Candace Edmondson who I worked with a coffee shop 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:26.479 in Union Square, and she was like, oh, you're acting. 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:28.920 You should come to this acting class. And a woman 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:33.159 named Susan Batson was still teaching. Now she was studying 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:35.040 with Susan. I went to Susan's class and it did. 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:37.520 It changed my life and I was like, now it's 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:39.840 the time to get serious about acting. I don't know 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:43.760 if you know Susan, but she she well, she she 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:47.400 while she coaches Juliete Binos, Nicole kid Mean, She's worked 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:50.400 with Nicole for years. She has a beautiful book on 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:53.240 acting called Truth and she has her own process. But 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:55.360 she studied with Lee Strasberg. She was a member of 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:56.919 the act. She is a member of the Actors Studio, 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:59.240 and she also studied with Uda Hogen and has a 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:02.880 great book called Truth about Acting. And when I started 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:05.400 studying with Susan, it really I fell in love with 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:09.120 acting and I really began to understand the power of 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:13.920 the art form to change hearts and minds. 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:15.280 There was a there was a directive. 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:19.840 Susan always would ask us, implore us when we had 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:21.320 a character, what do you want to say to the 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:25.840 world about this character, about the humanity of this character. 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:29.280 Tom Brangle, who was one of the teachers, he always 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:31.320 gave this example of when he had to he did 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:33.360 a play and he had to play a rapist, and 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:35.760 he was just like, what do I want to say 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:39.920 to the world about this rapist, horrible character that I'm 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:42.880 you know, a person who's done a horrible thing. And 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:45.000 for him it was like if you don't you know, 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:47.360 for parents, if you don't you know, love your children, 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:50.080 your child could turn into this horrible person. 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:51.760 So there was a there was. 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:55.600 Always something attached to the work that was bigger than 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:59.520 the work. But then there was also a call to 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.720 delve is deep into your psyche as possible to show 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:05.040 her whole thing is to create a walking, talking human 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.120 being and to always find the bottom of the character. 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:09.280 And when you really commit. 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:11.880 She helped me understand and I think all her students 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:16.320 understanding when you fully commit to the process of delving 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.679 deep into your psyche to give those things over to character. 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:24.720 So many details, so many layers, and when you layer that, 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.600 when you create a full human being, that that can 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:31.680 shift molecule so that that could change the world. And 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:34.600 then in two thousand and seven, a woman named Candace 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:38.839 Kane became the first transactor to have a recurring role 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:41.240 in a primetime TV show that shows dirty sexy money. 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:43.719 That made me believe it was possible. And I've been 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:48.079 studying seriously since two thousand and one. And so then 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:51.839 I printed five hundred postcards that said Laverne Cox is 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:54.440 the answer to all your transcender acting needs. Before then 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:57.440 I was auditioning for things and not sort of like 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:01.560 necessarily disclosing my transness. And then I got four meetings 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:03.360 and one of them was with my current manager of 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:06.720 Paul Jleppo, And we've been together since two thousand and seven, 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:08.319 which is amazing. 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:10.679 And that's crazy with somebody that long. 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:12.520 Yeah, it's been a hard road. 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:13.920 I mean, if I was listening to your podcast in 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:15.679 your conversation with Mark Ruffullo, and you were sort of 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:18.040 talking about going on auditions and a lot of my 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:21.480 colleagues who were not trans have have had so many 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:22.600 more auditions than I have. 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:24.720 There just haven't been that many roles. 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:28.440 And so I've just been really I mean, when The 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:33.040 Orange's New Black Moment came along in twenty twelve, I 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:35.760 was going to quit acting. I just turned forty, and 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:39.040 I thought, you know, who do you think you are 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:42.560 thinking that you can be an actor? And you're forty now, 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:45.200 and you're black and you're trans, and no one's you know, 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:48.200 had a mainstream career, and so I was going to go. 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:50.240 I was about to apply to grad school. 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:52.400 I was studying for my gre and I was about 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:55.680 to apply to grad school and the Orange audition came 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:58.320 along and I booked it and it changed my life. 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:01.679 Wow, Sow. And of course you were so fantastic on 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:04.400 that show, along with thanks everything since then and now 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:08.160 now you must just turn down work left and right, etc. 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:11.800 I mean not sure. You seem like you're really really busy. 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:15.680 I'm busy, yes, and I'm and I'm also I am picky. 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:19.120 I don't get you know, it's still don't get a 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.600 lot of offers. I do turn down a lot of things, though, 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.199 because I don't want to repeat myself, or it needs 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.200 to be for me. It needs to be working with 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:29.959 great actors or working with great directors, or. 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:32.760 A story that I really. 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:36.400 Want to tell, and time is precious, and you know, 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:38.280 so a lot of it it's about the director, it's 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:42.079 about the story. I do turn down a lot of things, 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:45.320 but I don't get a lot of offers either. But 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:47.439 I'm lucky that I get to sort of host Red 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.320 Carpets and I still do a lot of speaking engagements 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.760 and we do a lot and do my podcast, and 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:55.960 so I do get to do a lot of different 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:59.440 things and so have multiple income streams. But then it 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:04.720 also keeps me creatively excited. So the certainly there are 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:08.600 a lot of my colleagues who work who you know, 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:10.840 who have four Immy nominations, who act way more than 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:15.439 I act. But I'm lucky that I have other things 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.600 that I also get to do. But I'm hoping I 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:20.360 have a couple of projects in the can. I'm hoping 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:24.719 people will see the work and see the range I think, 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:26.560 you know, I still have to prove myself. I think 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.120 there's a lot I think people, you know, this business, 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:30.960 people will put you in a box and think that 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:32.080 there's only one thing. 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:32.680 They need to do. 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:38.880 And I am looking forward to people seeing the range 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:41.760 of what I can do. And I'm very committed to 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:46.920 being a better actor and playing different kinds of roles. 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:50.280 And I can't wait for the world to see the things, 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:52.080 the new things that we've done that are. 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:53.520 Very different than what we've done before. 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:56.040 So I'm excited about that and hopefully it'll click with 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:59.000 people and directors and casting people will see it and. 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:00.720 Say, oh, she can do this too, and oh she 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:01.240 can do that. 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:01.720 Well. 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.120 That's always the challenge, right is yeah that you know. 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:09.840 I mean, I've always felt that starting out. I was 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:13.680 kind of even told by people, this is the type 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:16.000 of thing that you're going to do and it's going 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:18.200 to be whatever it was in my case, you know, 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:22.480 boy next door or you know whatever, and fighting against 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:26.520 that and taking those risks and trying to to uh 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:29.760 because Hollywood really does want you to do the thing. 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:32.160 It's not even so much the last thing they saw 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:33.960 you in, but it's the thing that you've been the 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:37.160 most successful at They want you because they figure that 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:40.560 if they could make money, you know, from the thing 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:42.600 that you did, well, then they want you to do 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:43.840 it again so they can make the money from the 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:44.280 thing that you did. 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:44.720 Yeah. 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:47.640 Absolutely, you know, being a black trans woman and with 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:52.079 the environment that's still anti trans now being commercially viable, 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:54.360 it's like a tricky thing and it's something I think 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:57.199 a lot about, and I think a lot about reaching 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:02.079 bigger audiences and more diverse audiences, which is going to 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:04.800 be really important from my career going the business part 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:07.120 of my career going forward. So it's something I think 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:12.880 a lot about. And hopefully my hope is that what 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.480 I've always believed was Susan instilled in me and all 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:21.960 her students is that if the work is truly human 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:25.760 and you really do the work, it will transcend all categories. 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:28.640 It will transcend that it doesn't matter what you look like. 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.280 She always would talk about Woopy Goldberg and that she 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:36.840 didn't look like anyone else, you know, and the power 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:39.679 of the work that she did and color purple specifically 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:43.880 then and as a comedian she was just so good 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:47.720 and so people connected to her and related to her 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:49.920 and she made us laugh and she made us feel 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:52.600 that it didn't matter that she didn't look like anybody else. 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:56.920 And so this is my charge as an artist that 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:58.880 I'm not like anybody else. 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:00.000 And I think that's wonderful. 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:04.400 But I that that, but I must be I must 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:08.559 be exceptional, you know. And so I'm probably my biggest 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.320 critic in terms of my work, and I try what 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:14.080 I do. Love about acting though it's my my my 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:17.000 prayer before this podcast today and my prayer before I work, 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:19.600 it's always God, give me permission to do this imperfectly 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:22.520 and allow me to be of service. And so a's 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:25.720 critical as I am of everything that I. 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:29.440 Do writing that down right now imperfectly and of service. 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:32.040 Thank you that I But so the I have to 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:34.280 let go of the perfectionism though that's so that I 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:38.720 have to consciously say this is this is going to 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:43.600 be perfect, and that's okay. And I love acting because 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.480 that's there's something about acting as because I sang too, 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:49.280 and when you sing and I sing opera, when you sing, 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.160 either you're hitting the note or you're not. You know, 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:55.040 there is a precision that's required. But with acting, there's 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.040 so many different choices. I love when I get to 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:00.400 do a scene a zillion different ways, because then I 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:05.560 don't I don't become beholden to I wish they'd use 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:07.840 that take, even though that just happened to be recently. 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:09.360 But the project I give. 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.680 I like to give a lot of options to directors, 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:15.320 and then it helps me artistically to not get stuck 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:17.440 in the scene should be just this way. 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:18.400 So I'm with it. 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.640 I love playing different ways. 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.160 That's a way to go. I totally agree. I mean, 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:26.800 once you understand the character, you know, if you really 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:29.200 understand the character, then there's no reason not to try 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:33.080 different different things, because if you're already inhabiting that person 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:35.640 that just like we, you know, we react to different 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:43.880 things in the course of our day. I love it 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:49.160 when I speak to actors who really uh are are 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:56.400 are so uh vocal and proud and into the fact 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:59.760 that the work that we do. It can often be 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:02.600 so dismissed, you know, as it's kind of like we 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:04.760 just get a lot of money for looking good and 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:08.080 wearing makeup, and and people will say to you things like, 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:10.520 you know, I don't understand how you could learn all 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:12.960 those lines, which you know, as we all know, is 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:16.000 the least of your problems. I mean, it was really 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:19.240 it was really about learning lines. You know, we could 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:22.360 all be whatever politicians or something. But I mean, I 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:25.760 think that you know, it's I love to hear your 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:30.240 enthusiasm and and uh and and love of the craft 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:33.200 because I feel the same way. I really still loving it. 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:35.080 I've been doing it way longer than you have, and 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:40.280 I just I absolutely still find all of the nuances 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:45.840 in all of the ways that other people use that process, 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:48.360 and and and the fact that you know, you you 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:52.320 slid from one very specific kind of technique and then 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:55.680 discovered another one, And it sounds like in some ways 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:58.040 you're kind of creating your own as life goes on. 0:16:58.200 --> 0:16:59.440 That that takes. 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:01.160 Different calling call for a different things. 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:05.240 They different and different actors and different directors, and every 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:09.960 situation is super different. You know, you mentioned them just 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:15.440 in Passing Opera. And I'm curious about that because I'm, 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.000 you know, sitting on this side of the of the 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:20.840 of the of the microphone, which is kind of a 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:24.600 new thing for me. I'm I'm I find myself echoing 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:26.919 back questions that I get all the time because I 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.680 play in a band and a songwriter and singer, and 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:33.399 so this is something that I get. How do you 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:37.240 how do you feel uh performed, performing as an actor 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:41.719 relates to something that you would do vocally or in 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:45.400 in Are there similarities or differences between the music part 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:47.040 of your life and the and the acting part of 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:47.560 your life. 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.399 I mean the similarity is with with with opera is 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.760 often there is a character if you're singing an aria 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:57.120 from an opera. I'm working at some material from Carmen now, 0:17:57.280 --> 0:17:59.160 so there's a character. She's a character, and I'm working 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:03.240 around the Prey de Rampa de Seville and it's a 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:06.160 scene with Jean Jose and it's the it's a moment 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:09.800 in Carmen when she's been arrested and John Jose is 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:12.160 the officer and she's been arrested. He's she's been arrested 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:13.679 because she's got into a fight with some of the 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:17.240 girls with cigarette factory, and she's seducing Don Jose while 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:19.240 she's sort of her hands are tied behind her back, 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:22.280 and so she's, you know, singing to herself and seducing 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:25.760 him and it's so much fun. And so right now 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:28.760 I have to remember that this opera thing is for 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:31.320 me and that it's supposed to be fun, and yes, 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:33.199 I will continue to work on my technique and I 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:38.040 love to sing an f above high see glory, but 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:39.240 it doesn't come out every day. 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:41.480 There is a video on Instagram right now me singing in. 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:44.840 I got to check that out that for those of 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:47.879 you that don't know, that is a very high note. 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:50.159 It's a very high note. And it's fun that I 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:52.600 that that comes out. Sometimes it doesn't come out every day, 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:56.840 but so yeah, I love working on technique as a singer. 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.199 But then I do this because it's fun like this, 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:01.639 No one's asking me to think, no one cares or 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:03.520 you know, so this needs to be fun for me. 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:05.560 So I'm going to work on the Carmen and working 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:07.840 on some metso stuff where I can probably act more 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:10.080 and just have a little scrind and have it be 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:12.399 a little less technical, even though I will continue to 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:13.320 work on my technique. 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:16.119 So you know, I love it when people do multiple 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:19.480 things in their in their lives, which you've done, you know, 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.199 time and time again. You you you uh, you know, 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:26.800 as you mentioned done your red carpet stuff and opera, 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:29.639 your amazing acting career. 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:30.280 Uh. 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:36.600 You're also a very strong advocate for different kinds of 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:39.920 human rights. And I think that's a pretty good segue 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:44.240 to bring in the Chase Strangio today. Who is from 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:48.800 the A C l U And who is you have 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:53.000 invited to join us? Hey you Chase? How you doing? 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:54.360 I'm doing well. 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:59.360 I've been very intrigued by your conversation and excited excited 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:00.520 to be here with you. 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:01.359 Well. 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:05.840 Laverne mentioned in passing that, uh, you know that we 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:11.040 were at a a dark moment in this country in 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:15.520 terms of backlash against people with trans writes, and I 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:20.320