1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody. Today's guest has honestly made history, first by 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: making a mark in the award winning TV show Orange 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: Is a New Black, before building a career that spans 4 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: film and TV and music and so much more. Laverne 5 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: Cox is an inspirational figure for so many people, and 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: I'm so glad to have her on the show today. 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: Her story will blow you away, So lean in. I'm 8 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: glad you well. I am here today extremely excited to 9 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: welcome our guest, Laverne Cox. Laverne, it's so great. Have 10 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: we ever have our paths crossed? I feel like we 11 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: must have met someplace. I know we haven't worked in 12 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: anything together, but. 13 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 2: I think I would remember meeting the legendary Kevin Bacon. 14 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: I think I would remember meeting the legendary Laverne. 15 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 3: We've never met. It's so funny. 16 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 2: I was in I was in La over the weekend 17 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 2: and Footloose was on TV with I know, and and 18 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 2: then Flash Dance came on and I just like, I'm 19 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 2: fifty one years old, so like my entire like elementary school, 20 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 2: like life, like flash before my eyes, and like it 21 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 2: was such it was such a moment. I know you've 22 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 2: done many things since Footloose, but that is how I 23 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 2: discovered you, and it. 24 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 3: Was just a lovely nostalgic moment that I had just 25 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:36,559 Speaker 3: had just a few days ago. 26 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 1: Oh that's awesome. Yeah, well let me tell you. 27 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 3: Maybe I have to watch it. 28 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 1: The scary thing is it's the fortieth anniversary this year. 29 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure how to process that yet. But 30 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four, it'll be the fortieth anniversary of 31 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: making that movie. And you mentioned the Flash Dance, which 32 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: I believe came out either the year before or around 33 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: the same time. 34 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 3: It's a year before. 35 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a year before, right, And funny side 36 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: story is that I had a I had a dance 37 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: double in the in the movie as well as as 38 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: well as and so did Jennifer Peele and they there 39 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: the two doubles got married. 40 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 3: Oh my god, I didn't know that. 41 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: Isn't that crazy story? That's yeah, I'm not sure it lasted, 42 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: but I know that they were married for a while. 43 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 3: That's amazing. God. 44 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 2: Flash Dance with My Life got Footlooths was so just 45 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 2: be nostalgia, the memories. Anyway, Well, it's so nice. 46 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: It's so nice to meet you, so nice to have 47 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: you here especially, uh, fantastic knowing that you liked that movie, 48 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: so thank you for that. Of course, I'm so speaking 49 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: about going going back. I know you probably hear this 50 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: a lot, but tell me about your your your journey 51 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: into this specifically into this profession, and what it was 52 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:59,959 Speaker 1: that brought you to our screen. 53 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 3: Oh my, you know. I it's been a long journey. 54 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 2: But I started out so when I when I was 55 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 2: a kid, I grew up in Mobile, Alabama, and when 56 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 2: I started walking, I started dancing and I always had 57 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 2: and so I was a dancer as a kid. So 58 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 2: footloose and flash dance were touchstones, as was fame for me, 59 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 2: and so I was. And so from about the age 60 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 2: of five years old till third grade, I begged my 61 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 2: mother to put me into dance classes, and finally, when 62 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 2: I was in third grade, I started studying tap in jazz. Mobil, 63 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: Alabama was not the best place for me to grow up. 64 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 2: I was bullied as a kid. I was you know, 65 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 2: beaten up and chased home from school every day because 66 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 2: I was this very fim child and I was assigned 67 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 2: male at birth. 68 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 3: And so when I would dance, I would. 69 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 2: Create these characters and have music in my head and 70 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: I would go someplace else, and it really saved my 71 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 2: life as a kid. It was this amazing, wonderful thing. 72 00:03:59,440 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 3: I care your. 73 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 2: I used to start doing talent shows in third grade 74 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 2: and I choreographed a dance routine to man Hunt from 75 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 2: Flash Dance and been third grade. 76 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: Is there a videotape for that? 77 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 3: I wish we weren't. We were poor, so we didn't 78 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 3: like record this. 79 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 2: But can you imagine like this led a little black 80 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 2: kid doing a jazz dance routine to man Hunt from 81 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 2: Flash Dance. And I don't think I fully, I didn't 82 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 2: understand what I'm going on a man Hunt Mint. So 83 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 2: I've always been a performer, and I always knew that 84 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 2: I would transition to acting. Even when I was a dancer, 85 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 2: I felt like it was all sort of about characters. 86 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 3: It was all about sort. 87 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 2: Of creating personas, and so so I always knew that 88 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 2: I would transition to acting. And I went to dim 89 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 2: School of Fine Arts and was a dance major there 90 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 2: and did and then I did started doing some musicals 91 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 2: in high school and college and started studying acting in college. 92 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 2: I went to Indiana University, then transferred to Marymount Manhattan 93 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: College and I have a degree in dance, but I started 94 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 2: doing theater when I was in college. I did my 95 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: first movie when I was in college. And after I 96 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 2: graduated and realized I was I needed to like stop 97 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 2: being in denial about being trans. I was like, well, 98 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 2: there's no transactors. And this was the mid to late nineties, 99 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 2: and I was like, what am I going to do? 100 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 3: You know? So then I went to fashion school for 101 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 3: like a year. 102 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, so you you looked at the scope, 103 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: at the landscape of the industry, the acting industry, and said, 104 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: there's no transactors. This is there's no there's no career 105 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: path here. But I'm so I'm going to go into fashion. 106 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. 107 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: That was really fascinating. 108 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: I knew trans people who were in fashion. I knew 109 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 2: trans people who were buyers and who worked in merchandising, 110 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 2: and so I was thinking I was going to I 111 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 2: was studying merchandising at FAT and I did it for like, 112 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 2: you know, you know, two semesters for like a year, 113 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 2: and I was like, I love fashion, but I don't. 114 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 3: Want to do this. 115 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 2: So I did a movie in college my senior year, 116 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 2: and like someone saw me on the subway and thought 117 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 2: I'd be perfume for this movie and did a movie 118 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 2: then and then I someone saw me in a club. 119 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:06,679 Speaker 3: I auditioned for a film. I did another film. 120 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 2: My little roles were coming around here and there for 121 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 2: a drag or trance and they didn't know the difference 122 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 2: between dragon trans at the time, and so I was 123 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 2: I was getting these little roles, and then I just 124 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: was sort of like And then there was a woman 125 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 2: named Candace Edmondson who I worked with a coffee shop 126 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 2: in Union Square, and she was like, oh, you're acting. 127 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 2: You should come to this acting class. And a woman 128 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 2: named Susan Batson was still teaching. Now she was studying 129 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 2: with Susan. I went to Susan's class and it did. 130 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 2: It changed my life and I was like, now it's 131 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 2: the time to get serious about acting. I don't know 132 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: if you know Susan, but she she well, she she 133 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 2: while she coaches Juliete Binos, Nicole kid Mean, She's worked 134 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 2: with Nicole for years. She has a beautiful book on 135 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: acting called Truth and she has her own process. But 136 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 2: she studied with Lee Strasberg. She was a member of 137 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 2: the act. She is a member of the Actors Studio, 138 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 2: and she also studied with Uda Hogen and has a 139 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 2: great book called Truth about Acting. And when I started 140 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 2: studying with Susan, it really I fell in love with 141 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 2: acting and I really began to understand the power of 142 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 2: the art form to change hearts and minds. 143 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 3: There was a there was a directive. 144 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 2: Susan always would ask us, implore us when we had 145 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 2: a character, what do you want to say to the 146 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 2: world about this character, about the humanity of this character. 147 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 2: Tom Brangle, who was one of the teachers, he always 148 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 2: gave this example of when he had to he did 149 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 2: a play and he had to play a rapist, and 150 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 2: he was just like, what do I want to say 151 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: to the world about this rapist, horrible character that I'm 152 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: you know, a person who's done a horrible thing. And 153 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 2: for him it was like if you don't you know, 154 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 2: for parents, if you don't you know, love your children, 155 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 2: your child could turn into this horrible person. 156 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 3: So there was a there was. 157 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 2: Always something attached to the work that was bigger than 158 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 2: the work. But then there was also a call to 159 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 2: delve is deep into your psyche as possible to show 160 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 2: her whole thing is to create a walking, talking human 161 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 2: being and to always find the bottom of the character. 162 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 3: And when you really commit. 163 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 2: She helped me understand and I think all her students 164 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 2: understanding when you fully commit to the process of delving 165 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,679 Speaker 2: deep into your psyche to give those things over to character. 166 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 2: So many details, so many layers, and when you layer that, 167 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: when you create a full human being, that that can 168 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 2: shift molecule so that that could change the world. And 169 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 2: then in two thousand and seven, a woman named Candace 170 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 2: Kane became the first transactor to have a recurring role 171 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: in a primetime TV show that shows dirty sexy money. 172 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,719 Speaker 2: That made me believe it was possible. And I've been 173 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:48,079 Speaker 2: studying seriously since two thousand and one. And so then 174 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 2: I printed five hundred postcards that said Laverne Cox is 175 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 2: the answer to all your transcender acting needs. Before then 176 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 2: I was auditioning for things and not sort of like 177 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 2: necessarily disclosing my transness. And then I got four meetings 178 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 2: and one of them was with my current manager of 179 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 2: Paul Jleppo, And we've been together since two thousand and seven, 180 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:08,319 Speaker 2: which is amazing. 181 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 1: And that's crazy with somebody that long. 182 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been a hard road. 183 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 2: I mean, if I was listening to your podcast in 184 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 2: your conversation with Mark Ruffullo, and you were sort of 185 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 2: talking about going on auditions and a lot of my 186 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 2: colleagues who were not trans have have had so many 187 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 2: more auditions than I have. 188 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 3: There just haven't been that many roles. 189 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 2: And so I've just been really I mean, when The 190 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 2: Orange's New Black Moment came along in twenty twelve, I 191 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 2: was going to quit acting. I just turned forty, and 192 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 2: I thought, you know, who do you think you are 193 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 2: thinking that you can be an actor? And you're forty now, 194 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 2: and you're black and you're trans, and no one's you know, 195 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 2: had a mainstream career, and so I was going to go. 196 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 3: I was about to apply to grad school. 197 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 2: I was studying for my gre and I was about 198 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 2: to apply to grad school and the Orange audition came 199 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: along and I booked it and it changed my life. 200 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 1: Wow, Sow. And of course you were so fantastic on 201 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: that show, along with thanks everything since then and now 202 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: now you must just turn down work left and right, etc. 203 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: I mean not sure. You seem like you're really really busy. 204 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 2: I'm busy, yes, and I'm and I'm also I am picky. 205 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 2: I don't get you know, it's still don't get a 206 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 2: lot of offers. I do turn down a lot of things, though, 207 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 2: because I don't want to repeat myself, or it needs 208 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 2: to be for me. It needs to be working with 209 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,959 Speaker 2: great actors or working with great directors, or. 210 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 3: A story that I really. 211 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: Want to tell, and time is precious, and you know, 212 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 2: so a lot of it it's about the director, it's 213 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 2: about the story. I do turn down a lot of things, 214 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 2: but I don't get a lot of offers either. But 215 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 2: I'm lucky that I get to sort of host Red 216 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 2: Carpets and I still do a lot of speaking engagements 217 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 2: and we do a lot and do my podcast, and 218 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 2: so I do get to do a lot of different 219 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 2: things and so have multiple income streams. But then it 220 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 2: also keeps me creatively excited. So the certainly there are 221 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 2: a lot of my colleagues who work who you know, 222 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 2: who have four Immy nominations, who act way more than 223 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 2: I act. But I'm lucky that I have other things 224 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 2: that I also get to do. But I'm hoping I 225 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 2: have a couple of projects in the can. I'm hoping 226 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,719 Speaker 2: people will see the work and see the range I think, 227 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 2: you know, I still have to prove myself. I think 228 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 2: there's a lot I think people, you know, this business, 229 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 2: people will put you in a box and think that 230 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 2: there's only one thing. 231 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: They need to do. 232 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 2: And I am looking forward to people seeing the range 233 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 2: of what I can do. And I'm very committed to 234 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 2: being a better actor and playing different kinds of roles. 235 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 2: And I can't wait for the world to see the things, 236 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 2: the new things that we've done that are. 237 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 3: Very different than what we've done before. 238 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 2: So I'm excited about that and hopefully it'll click with 239 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 2: people and directors and casting people will see it and. 240 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 3: Say, oh, she can do this too, and oh she 241 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 3: can do that. 242 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 4: Well. 243 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: That's always the challenge, right is yeah that you know. 244 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I've always felt that starting out. I was 245 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: kind of even told by people, this is the type 246 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: of thing that you're going to do and it's going 247 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: to be whatever it was in my case, you know, 248 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: boy next door or you know whatever, and fighting against 249 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: that and taking those risks and trying to to uh 250 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: because Hollywood really does want you to do the thing. 251 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: It's not even so much the last thing they saw 252 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 1: you in, but it's the thing that you've been the 253 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: most successful at They want you because they figure that 254 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: if they could make money, you know, from the thing 255 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: that you did, well, then they want you to do 256 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: it again so they can make the money from the 257 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: thing that you did. 258 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. 259 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, being a black trans woman and with 260 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:52,079 Speaker 2: the environment that's still anti trans now being commercially viable, 261 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 2: it's like a tricky thing and it's something I think 262 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 2: a lot about, and I think a lot about reaching 263 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 2: bigger audiences and more diverse audiences, which is going to 264 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 2: be really important from my career going the business part 265 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 2: of my career going forward. So it's something I think 266 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 2: a lot about. And hopefully my hope is that what 267 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 2: I've always believed was Susan instilled in me and all 268 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 2: her students is that if the work is truly human 269 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 2: and you really do the work, it will transcend all categories. 270 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 2: It will transcend that it doesn't matter what you look like. 271 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: She always would talk about Woopy Goldberg and that she 272 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 2: didn't look like anyone else, you know, and the power 273 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 2: of the work that she did and color purple specifically 274 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 2: then and as a comedian she was just so good 275 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: and so people connected to her and related to her 276 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 2: and she made us laugh and she made us feel 277 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 2: that it didn't matter that she didn't look like anybody else. 278 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 2: And so this is my charge as an artist that 279 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 2: I'm not like anybody else. 280 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 3: And I think that's wonderful. 281 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 2: But I that that, but I must be I must 282 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 2: be exceptional, you know. And so I'm probably my biggest 283 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 2: critic in terms of my work, and I try what 284 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 2: I do. Love about acting though it's my my my 285 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 2: prayer before this podcast today and my prayer before I work, 286 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 2: it's always God, give me permission to do this imperfectly 287 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 2: and allow me to be of service. And so a's 288 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 2: critical as I am of everything that I. 289 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: Do writing that down right now imperfectly and of service. 290 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 2: Thank you that I But so the I have to 291 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 2: let go of the perfectionism though that's so that I 292 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 2: have to consciously say this is this is going to 293 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 2: be perfect, and that's okay. And I love acting because 294 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 2: that's there's something about acting as because I sang too, 295 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 2: and when you sing and I sing opera, when you sing, 296 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 2: either you're hitting the note or you're not. You know, 297 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 2: there is a precision that's required. But with acting, there's 298 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 2: so many different choices. I love when I get to 299 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 2: do a scene a zillion different ways, because then I 300 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 2: don't I don't become beholden to I wish they'd use 301 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: that take, even though that just happened to be recently. 302 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 3: But the project I give. 303 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 2: I like to give a lot of options to directors, 304 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 2: and then it helps me artistically to not get stuck 305 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: in the scene should be just this way. 306 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: So I'm with it. 307 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 3: I love playing different ways. 308 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: That's a way to go. I totally agree. I mean, 309 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: once you understand the character, you know, if you really 310 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: understand the character, then there's no reason not to try 311 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: different different things, because if you're already inhabiting that person 312 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: that just like we, you know, we react to different 313 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: things in the course of our day. I love it 314 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: when I speak to actors who really uh are are 315 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: are so uh vocal and proud and into the fact 316 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: that the work that we do. It can often be 317 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: so dismissed, you know, as it's kind of like we 318 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: just get a lot of money for looking good and 319 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: wearing makeup, and and people will say to you things like, 320 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: you know, I don't understand how you could learn all 321 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: those lines, which you know, as we all know, is 322 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: the least of your problems. I mean, it was really 323 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: it was really about learning lines. You know, we could 324 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: all be whatever politicians or something. But I mean, I 325 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: think that you know, it's I love to hear your 326 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: enthusiasm and and uh and and love of the craft 327 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: because I feel the same way. I really still loving it. 328 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: I've been doing it way longer than you have, and 329 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: I just I absolutely still find all of the nuances 330 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: in all of the ways that other people use that process, 331 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: and and and the fact that you know, you you 332 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: slid from one very specific kind of technique and then 333 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: discovered another one, And it sounds like in some ways 334 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: you're kind of creating your own as life goes on. 335 00:16:58,200 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: That that takes. 336 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 3: Different calling call for a different things. 337 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: They different and different actors and different directors, and every 338 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: situation is super different. You know, you mentioned them just 339 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: in Passing Opera. And I'm curious about that because I'm, 340 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: you know, sitting on this side of the of the 341 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: of the of the microphone, which is kind of a 342 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: new thing for me. I'm I'm I find myself echoing 343 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: back questions that I get all the time because I 344 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: play in a band and a songwriter and singer, and 345 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: so this is something that I get. How do you 346 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: how do you feel uh performed, performing as an actor 347 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,719 Speaker 1: relates to something that you would do vocally or in 348 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 1: in Are there similarities or differences between the music part 349 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: of your life and the and the acting part of 350 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: your life. 351 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 2: I mean the similarity is with with with opera is 352 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 2: often there is a character if you're singing an aria 353 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 2: from an opera. I'm working at some material from Carmen now, 354 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 2: so there's a character. She's a character, and I'm working 355 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 2: around the Prey de Rampa de Seville and it's a 356 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 2: scene with Jean Jose and it's the it's a moment 357 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 2: in Carmen when she's been arrested and John Jose is 358 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 2: the officer and she's been arrested. He's she's been arrested 359 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 2: because she's got into a fight with some of the 360 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 2: girls with cigarette factory, and she's seducing Don Jose while 361 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: she's sort of her hands are tied behind her back, 362 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 2: and so she's, you know, singing to herself and seducing 363 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 2: him and it's so much fun. And so right now 364 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 2: I have to remember that this opera thing is for 365 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 2: me and that it's supposed to be fun, and yes, 366 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 2: I will continue to work on my technique and I 367 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 2: love to sing an f above high see glory, but 368 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 2: it doesn't come out every day. 369 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 3: There is a video on Instagram right now me singing in. 370 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: I got to check that out that for those of 371 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 1: you that don't know, that is a very high note. 372 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 2: It's a very high note. And it's fun that I 373 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 2: that that comes out. Sometimes it doesn't come out every day, 374 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 2: but so yeah, I love working on technique as a singer. 375 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 2: But then I do this because it's fun like this, 376 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 2: No one's asking me to think, no one cares or 377 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 2: you know, so this needs to be fun for me. 378 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 2: So I'm going to work on the Carmen and working 379 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 2: on some metso stuff where I can probably act more 380 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 2: and just have a little scrind and have it be 381 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 2: a little less technical, even though I will continue to 382 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 2: work on my technique. 383 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: So you know, I love it when people do multiple 384 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: things in their in their lives, which you've done, you know, 385 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 1: time and time again. You you you uh, you know, 386 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: as you mentioned done your red carpet stuff and opera, 387 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: your amazing acting career. 388 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 3: Uh. 389 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: You're also a very strong advocate for different kinds of 390 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: human rights. And I think that's a pretty good segue 391 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: to bring in the Chase Strangio today. Who is from 392 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: the A C l U And who is you have 393 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: invited to join us? Hey you Chase? How you doing? 394 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:54,360 Speaker 5: I'm doing well. 395 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 6: I've been very intrigued by your conversation and excited excited 396 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 6: to be here with you. 397 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 5: Well. 398 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: Laverne mentioned in passing that, uh, you know that we 399 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: were at a a dark moment in this country in 400 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: terms of backlash against people with trans writes, and I 401 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: have to say, I mean, I just there are times 402 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 1: when I really really do feel like we are taking 403 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: a step back from you know, even five years ago. Uh. 404 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering, first off, what is the what is 405 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: the work that you are doing around this very specific issue, 406 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: and and what is it that you think has has 407 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: uh has gotten us here? 408 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, it's it's funny that you you you 409 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,880 Speaker 6: both started talking about Footlooth because there's. 410 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 4: Moments when in this current landscape. 411 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 6: Where you start to look at the level of constraint 412 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 6: and restrictions on people's ability to experience joy, pleasure a 413 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 6: secular life, and you almost think about the conditions and 414 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 6: footloots at times like we are moving in this in 415 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 6: this direction, both in the United States and globally, where 416 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 6: you have the rise of far right governments happening alongside, 417 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 6: of course, these very particular types of restrictions over bodily autonomy, 418 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 6: over the family, over the possibilities for one's sense of 419 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 6: imagination and self expression and self actualization. 420 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 4: And what that looks like in. 421 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 6: Practice is fighting back against laws, not just those targeting 422 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 6: the trans community, those restricting what our kids can learn 423 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 6: in school, those constraining what we can access in public libraries. 424 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 6: Obviously massive changing conditions in the overturning of ree View 425 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 6: Waid with the Dobbs decision, continued voter suppression since the 426 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 6: Supreme Court overturned the Voting Rights Act. So we're having 427 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 6: these intersecting realities affecting people's lives. 428 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 4: And then in. 429 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 6: Particular for trans people, there is just an existential salt 430 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 6: on our existence, one that is very much focused on kids, 431 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 6: young people, and adolescents in particular in schools, but also 432 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 6: that has grave implications not just for trans adults but 433 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 6: for all of us, because this is an entry point 434 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 6: into a larger incursion into our body autonomy, our freedom, 435 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 6: and our ability to live full and free lives. 436 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 1: I'm curious for you, Chase. Obviously you found your way 437 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: to this work and to the ACL I want to 438 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: as you've got the microphone, so I'm very interested in 439 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: what brought you to this work And tell me a 440 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: little bit about your specific story. 441 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm someone who you know, sort of my tools 442 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 5: for my survival, my way of managing growing up when 443 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 5: I you know, I didn't have access to representations of 444 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 5: queerness and transness. 445 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,199 Speaker 6: I'm forty one years old. I didn't grow up at 446 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 6: a time when there was uh the Internet available to me, 447 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 6: So I didn't even really understand the breadth of possibility. 448 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 6: And so my my weapons, so to speak, or my 449 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 6: survival battle tool was my mind. And and so you know, 450 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 6: also Verne's sort of notion of perfectionism, how often we 451 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 6: use perfectionism as a as a survival as a survival 452 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 6: mechanism when we're feel when we feel unlovable, we don't 453 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 6: see a place for ourselves. And so for me find 454 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 6: you know, fighting, you know, WY way to survive in 455 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 6: school into adulthood was about intellectual pursuits, which ultimately drew 456 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 6: me to college, which I had the privilege to attend, 457 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 6: and then and then to to law school ultimately, and 458 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 6: and in part I went to law school because I 459 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 6: saw that as a legitimizing forces. 460 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 4: I was becoming more aware of my. 461 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 6: Queerness and my transness, not understanding how I would exist 462 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 6: in a world that you know, fundamentally rejected transgressions. Uh uh, 463 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 6: you know, people's transgressions from the gender binary. I mean 464 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 6: went to college at the height of the backlash to 465 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 6: the very early successes of fights for marriage equality after 466 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 6: Massachusetts legalized same sex marriage in two thousand and three. 467 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 4: You know, you had the George W. 468 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 6: Bush years where more than half the country constitutionally bans marriage. 469 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 4: Equality for same sex couples. 470 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 6: And so as you're growing up and coming of age 471 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 6: in his time, for me, my question was, well, who 472 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 6: am I going to be and how am I gonna 473 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 6: How am I going to find a way to navigate 474 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 6: in this world? And so I ultimately did become a lawyer, 475 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 6: both to serve my community as a transperson, to fight 476 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 6: as a trans lawyer for trans causes, but also, you know, 477 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 6: if I'm honest, to find a way to be someone 478 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 6: who could be seen and taken seriously in society and 479 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 6: that is something that I think it would be it 480 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 6: would be dishonest not to admit that that was part 481 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 6: of the journey. And I ultimately found my way to 482 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 6: the ACLU eleven years ago, and I've been here working 483 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 6: on behalf of LGBTQ rights and justice in the courts 484 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 6: and the legislatures and also in the public conversation. And 485 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 6: Laverne and I have worked closely together for the last 486 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 6: ten years or so because I think we both recognize 487 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 6: at the end of the day, you can fight every 488 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 6: single battle, and in the courts you can win some 489 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 6: of those battles, but if you're not changing people's empathetic impulses, 490 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 6: if you're not changing the cultural context, those those legal 491 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 6: and policy changes are not going to be durable. And 492 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 6: so so much of the work is about, you know, 493 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 6: the theater of the courtroom, but it's so much more 494 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 6: about the theater of society, and how are we going 495 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,199 Speaker 6: to ultimately transform people's understanding of our relationship to each 496 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 6: other as human beings and and and our you know, 497 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 6: sort of deservedness of our humanity. 498 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 2: Connect Please, I want to add to that because I 499 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 2: think so much of what has brought us to this 500 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: moment is the sort of collision of media, media propaganda 501 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 2: that is literally affecting what's happening in the courts, the 502 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 2: propaganda that dehumanizes trans people on every single level. And 503 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 2: for me right now, it's so important that we understand 504 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 2: that what is what anti trans people have done very 505 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 2: successfully is dehumanized trans people through conversations about our focusing 506 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 2: on our bodies, focusing on transition, using sports, and through 507 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 2: that dehumanization they've been able to successfully take away our rights. 508 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 3: Chase is challenging these laws in the courts. 509 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 2: We'll see what happens, but we a huge part of 510 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 2: this project needs to be rehumanizing, not just trans people, 511 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:40,719 Speaker 2: but everybody. 512 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 3: We are in a. 513 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 2: Culture right now where we see so many people dehumanizing 514 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 2: each other. And Brene Brown reminds us in her book 515 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 2: Braving the Wilderness, at the beginning of every single genocide 516 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 2: was dehumanization. So we have to if we are interested 517 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 2: in not having genocides and celebrating the humanity of everyone, 518 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 2: we have to really look at the ways in which 519 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 2: we use dehumanizing language understanding. And it's not for me, 520 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 2: it's not about policing language, because I'm not a language police, 521 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 2: But I think I believe in freedom of speech, but 522 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 2: I think it's about understanding that when we talk about 523 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 2: trans people and reduce us to chromosomes or testosterone levels 524 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 2: or genitalia, that that is objectifying us, in dehumanizing us, 525 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 2: and that leads to the conditions that where our rights 526 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 2: can be taken away, where we can just be murdered 527 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 2: in streets with impunity and people are just like, well, 528 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 2: you're not human anyway, right. So the work, and this 529 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 2: is what I love about being an artist, and this 530 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 2: is what the work we can do in the media 531 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 2: is to humanize trans people. And we are an uphel 532 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 2: battle because there is a very organized right wing media 533 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 2: ecosystem that is committed to dehumanizing trans people. And I 534 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 2: think it's not just what trans people. We have to 535 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 2: be careful about how we use language about anyone we 536 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 2: disagree with. I believe that like so often it's so 537 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 2: easy when someone did that we disagree with, says something 538 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 2: or does something, that it becomes really easy to use 539 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 2: the humanizing language against them. And I think we have 540 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 2: to fight against that because when we dehumanize other people, 541 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 2: we dehumanize ourselves. 542 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 7: If you are inspired by today's episode. Please join us 543 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 7: in supporting six degrees dot org by texting the word 544 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 7: Bacon to seven zero seven zero seven zero. Your gift 545 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 7: empowers us to continue to produce programs that highlight the 546 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 7: incredible work of everyday heroes, well also enabling us to 547 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,719 Speaker 7: provide essential resources to those that need it the most. 548 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 7: Once again, text b a co m to seven zero 549 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 7: seven zero seven zero or visit six degrees dot org 550 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 7: to learn more. 551 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: Chase, you brought this up about, you know, a culture building, 552 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: a culture of empathy and a culture of understanding that 553 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: that somehow, some sometimes does not exist in our society. 554 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: And you know, I am the perfect demographic for the 555 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: person that sometimes looks at and I've heard this from 556 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: from people that I know. You know, look, they look 557 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: at something like a way of speaking, you know, pronouns 558 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: or or or or language that you mentioned language Laverne, 559 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: And the reaction is, oh, wow, I can't say anything anymore, 560 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? It's that it's that point 561 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: of view of wanting desperately to hold on to some 562 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: kind of idea of what the status quo is. And 563 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: I wonder for both of you, how do you address that? 564 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: I mean, just just to. In my opinion, the idea 565 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: that you can learn something new when you're an old guy, right, 566 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: is the most beautiful possibility there is in the world. 567 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: You can learn to adjust your way of thinking. That's 568 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: how you stop dying. Really, you know, that's that's that's 569 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: what that's what you know when you when you're stuck 570 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: in one sort of mindset, you've got one foot in 571 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: the grape. So I'm just wondering if you have any 572 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: suggestions and how to deal with that when that comes up. 573 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: And when you hear that, oh my gosh, I can't 574 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: you know, yeah. 575 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 6: I mean, I guess my initial response to the idea 576 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 6: when people say, well, we can't say anything anymore. You 577 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 6: can do You can say whatever you want. It's just 578 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 6: whether there are consequences to what you say. And that's 579 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 6: the reality is that there are. We live in a 580 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 6: society where norms change, the consequences of our actions change. 581 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 6: It's like when we have conversations about acceptable levels of 582 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 6: violence against women in the workplace, for you know, this 583 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 6: reaction of men and the saying, well, now I can't. 584 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 4: Talk to a woman. It's like, well, I have a 585 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 4: lot of questions. 586 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 6: It does that you can't talk because because what you're 587 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 6: you are incapable of talking to a woman without these 588 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 6: certain things, or you're afraid of these consequences. We have 589 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 6: to have a more robust conversation about what what people 590 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,479 Speaker 6: are saying they can and can't do. And often what 591 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 6: that means is there are different consequences for me doing 592 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 6: a certain thing. You can still choose to do it, 593 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 6: you just then have a different set of consequences. But 594 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 6: I think what's really hard. I mean, I think about 595 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 6: myself as a parent and so many other parents. I 596 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 6: think if you ask people what is one reason you 597 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 6: have kids, and I think a lot of people will 598 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 6: say it is really beautiful to see the world anew 599 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 6: to experience a newness to things that you become jaded on. 600 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 6: And this is an example of that, Like we want 601 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 6: the world to change. How Like to your point, Kevin, 602 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 6: how dull and uninteresting a life if nothing changes as 603 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 6: you age. 604 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 4: And into your your your older adult years. 605 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 6: And so it's on the one hand, you want to 606 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 6: have kids and you want to see the world a 607 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 6: new but you want to control all of the contours 608 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 6: of that. I think that that's, you know, a contradiction 609 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 6: in terms and I would say, you know, yes, there 610 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 6: are moments when I have an eleven year old and 611 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 6: I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about, 612 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 6: but our impulse to say and therefore I want to 613 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 6: dismiss it instead of to say, Wow, how much more 614 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 6: exciting could my world be? 615 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 4: You know comes from a place of fear, and people 616 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 4: are often fearful of what they don't understand, and that 617 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 4: makes sense, but I think we're all much more enriched 618 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 4: when we say, huh, what would it look like to 619 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 4: incorporate that into my sense of possibility? Instead of trying 620 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 4: to keep things exactly as how I feel most comfortable. 621 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 3: I may, I may, I may I. I mean, I 622 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 3: hear it all the time. 623 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 2: I consume tons of media and like people are constantly saying, 624 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 2: you can't say anything anymore. People are so sensitive And 625 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 2: again I'm not I mean, I'm an artist and I 626 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 2: believe in freedom of speech. But for me, when I 627 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 2: I had a moment on Twitter many years ago, and 628 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 2: I'm from Alabama and my homestate passed a crazy abortion restriction, 629 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 2: and I retweeted a friend who said a woman's body 630 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 2: a woman's choice in a story, and then a transman 631 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 2: tweeted me and said, you're really going to erase transmen 632 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 2: and non binary people in this tweet Laverta. 633 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 3: I was just like, oh no, here we go. And 634 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 3: it was a moment. 635 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 2: I just remember feeling it was so uncomfortable and I 636 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 2: felt like called out and I felt so it was 637 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,479 Speaker 2: so uncomfortable and so awkward, and I remember tweeting I 638 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 2: was like, thank you for pointing this out. I'll take 639 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 2: this into consideration, I really and I thought about a 640 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 2: lot about it, and at the moment, in the moment, 641 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 2: I was like, oh god, I don't know if people 642 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 2: want to think about transman being pregnant right now. And 643 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 2: so I had all these things and I was like, 644 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 2: can I have a moment of solidarity with my you know, sisters? 645 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 2: And it was like but then what that moment was about, 646 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 2: though for me it's someone who was interested in the 647 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 2: humanity of trans people, is that, like, I don't want 648 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 2: to erase the experience of trans people. So it's not 649 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 2: about like this trans guy being super sensitive. It's about 650 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 2: me wanting to make him feel included and make him 651 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 2: feel like he's being seen. And there are real life 652 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 2: consequences when we don't when people who can get pregnant 653 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 2: and their healthcare needs are not being addressed because they 654 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 2: don't identify as women. So there actually are material consequences 655 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 2: when we don't consider consider people. 656 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 3: And so the language piece. 657 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 2: Language is how we communicate and how we relate information. 658 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 2: It's not about not being able to say something for me. 659 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 2: It's about understanding the consequences of what we say and 660 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 2: how it affects the real lived experiences of people. 661 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: These are really tiny adjustments when you really look at 662 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: it in the bigger picture of things. These are not hardships. 663 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: To try to address somebody in the way that they 664 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: would be more comfortable being addressed. To try to keep 665 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 1: your hands to yourself, you know, to try to think about, 666 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: you know, not not joking in the way that you 667 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: joked around on the set in the eighties, you know 668 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,760 Speaker 1: what I mean, whatever happens to be, they're not really big, 669 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: huge adjustments to make. Let's face it. I mean, they're 670 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: they're they're they're they're easy. 671 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 2: Sometimes there are moments are of discomfort that one might have. 672 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 2: That the moment on Twitter when I was called out 673 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:35,479 Speaker 2: publicly by this transman, it was very uncomfortable, and so I. 674 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 3: Think we being able to sit. 675 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 2: With discomfort and being able to distinguish between being uncomfortable 676 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 2: and being shamed or being you know, having some granularity 677 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 2: around what's what we're feeling and having some sort of 678 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 2: self awareness and self accountability I think becomes really important. 679 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 2: And then also being able to interrogate our own relationship 680 00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 2: to power. 681 00:35:58,560 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 3: And I think that. 682 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 2: I sort of hate the phrase check your privilege, but 683 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 2: I think it's important for It's been very important for me. 684 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 2: Is I've you know, even as a black trans woman 685 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 2: from a working class background that like now as a 686 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 2: famous person, as a person with some class privilege that 687 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 2: I have, I'm privileged now. So it's like me constantly 688 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 2: being willing and willing to be uncomfortable to interrogate my 689 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 2: privilege is to hold myself accountable, to try to be 690 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 2: accountable to the people in my life, to my to 691 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 2: the public platform that I have, and the people that 692 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 2: I represent, to try to be accountable and like all 693 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,760 Speaker 2: of that is really can be really uncomfortable and very difficult, 694 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 2: but hopefully we can begin to do that with the 695 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 2: people in our lives and our inner circles, and maybe 696 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 2: I would love to I'm trying to do this publicly. 697 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 2: I'm trying as much as possible model way in which 698 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 2: we can publicly create safe space so that we can 699 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 2: have conversations where people don't shut down and feel attacked 700 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 2: and so then go into defense mode. 701 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: Well, well, speaking with a lot, Well no, I'm I 702 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,279 Speaker 1: you do a lot of work in terms of being 703 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,439 Speaker 1: public about all of these things, which, which you know, listen, 704 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,439 Speaker 1: is fantastic. We we don't all do. Chase, you're here 705 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 1: with the A. C. L U and I. I've kept 706 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: you guys for so long, and I really do appreciate 707 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 1: you both being here, but I'm curious from you, Chase, 708 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 1: at this moment in time. It's two pronged question. Number one, 709 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: what are the most pressing issues that we have right 710 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 1: now in the in this country and in the world, 711 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,760 Speaker 1: and most specifically our call to action? How can people 712 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: help and get get involved and and uh and and 713 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:58,439 Speaker 1: you know, try to turn things around. 714 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 4: Well, we went from a situation where there was zero 715 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 4: laws in. 716 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 6: Twenty twenty one that banned healthcare for transgender adolescence. 717 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 4: Zero. 718 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 6: So in the span of two years, we went from 719 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 6: zero laws to now we have twenty two states that 720 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 6: categorically ban evidence based medicine for transgender adolescence. And I 721 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,959 Speaker 6: think what's important for people to understand, especially for parents 722 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 6: to understand, is this is a healthcare that's only being 723 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,920 Speaker 6: prescribed with the consent of parents and the recommendation of 724 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 6: every major medical association in the United States, and the 725 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 6: state is coming in and saying we know better, we're 726 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 6: going to take away that one option. And what that's 727 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 6: done is to take away healthcare that people have been 728 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 6: relying on in almost half the country, increasing the demand 729 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 6: on other states if people can even travel to other states, 730 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 6: but also for those who can't, are making it close 731 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,399 Speaker 6: to impossible. And obviously there's an outside sense of sort 732 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,479 Speaker 6: of how many young people are getting this care because 733 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 6: of how much coverage there is, but of course it's 734 00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 6: a very very. 735 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 4: Small percentage of people. But the state our life or death. 736 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 6: And so right now we're fighting in the courts trying 737 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 6: to stop the state, just like in the context of abortion, 738 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 6: just like in the contexts of other restrictions on bodily autonomy, 739 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 6: stop to state from intruding on our ability to make 740 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,359 Speaker 6: the decisions with our parents, with our children that are 741 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 6: best for us in accordance with the recommendations. 742 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 4: Of our doctors. We are now asking the Supreme Court 743 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 4: to review one of these cases. Many there may be. 744 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 6: Several cases involving transgender rights going up to the Supreme Court, 745 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 6: So the states could not be higher as well as 746 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,399 Speaker 6: of course, we're building up to a presidential election. We 747 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,800 Speaker 6: know that some of the candidates running are some of 748 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,320 Speaker 6: the most anti transpoliticians in the country, including Nicki Haley, 749 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,760 Speaker 6: including Governor DeSantis, including Donald Trump. 750 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 4: And so what does it mean if you shift the executive. 751 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,320 Speaker 6: And you have people who fundamentally want to eradicate trans 752 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 6: life leading our country. 753 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 4: So that is the nature of the threat. It truly 754 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 4: is life or death. 755 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,439 Speaker 6: And just as a reminder, people are trying to take 756 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 6: away our ability to determine that's right for us. 757 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 4: This doesn't concern them. 758 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 6: You know, one person's medical care that they and their 759 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 6: parents and their doctor agree is necessary does not implicate 760 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 6: another person's life, safety, or freedom. 761 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 4: But taking it away from us does implicate ours. So 762 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 4: as a call to action, and. 763 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 6: Just to make it brief, I would say, first and foremost, 764 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 6: we all have the ability to change the circumstances and 765 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 6: conversations in our lives and communities. 766 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 4: So you know, to your point, Kevin, when you're on set, if. 767 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,319 Speaker 6: You're in your kids school, just make more room for 768 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 6: people to exist, because so much of this is playing 769 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,800 Speaker 6: out in the public discourse. So don't say I can't 770 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 6: use the pronouns like you use a pronouns all the time. 771 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,840 Speaker 4: Is there a package coming today, Yeah, they're bringing it 772 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 4: in an hour. We do it. It's actually very common. 773 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 4: And in the second we shut something down, we just 774 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 4: make less space. 775 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 6: So maybe it takes you a little while, maybe it 776 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,279 Speaker 6: is hard, but how can we make more space in 777 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 6: our lives? And then also, you know, give money when 778 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 6: you can, share resources when you can, and think about 779 00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,919 Speaker 6: your political engagement, not just at the federal level, but at. 780 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 4: This local level as well. 781 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: Thank you. 782 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 6: So much is happening in our school boards, so much 783 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 6: is happening in our city council. So much is happening 784 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 6: in our state legislatures. 785 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,439 Speaker 1: That's so true. It's so true. On the state level, 786 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: it's so important. 787 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 2: And I can just add the fight is happening on 788 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 2: the state level. But desantists Trump have both said that 789 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 2: they will ban gender firm and care nationally. 790 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:21,799 Speaker 3: They are committed to that. 791 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,359 Speaker 2: If we have a Republican president they plan to ban 792 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,240 Speaker 2: gender firming care nationally. And it's not just for about children, 793 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,120 Speaker 2: it's everyone. There are states now that are banning gender 794 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 2: firm and care also for adults. And what I would 795 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,280 Speaker 2: say to that, for everyone who's out there who wants 796 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 2: to say, well, I think whether or not trans children 797 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,720 Speaker 2: should access gender or firming care that's up for debate, 798 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,640 Speaker 2: I would say it's not. As Chase said, this care 799 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,200 Speaker 2: is Every major medical association says that this care is 800 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,400 Speaker 2: healthy and it is safe, and politicians should not be 801 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 2: involved in that period. Point blank, My existence, my access 802 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 2: to healthcare should not be up for debate. It is 803 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,800 Speaker 2: none of your business. And I would love for people 804 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 2: to say, when they hear people say this, we should 805 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 2: be debating this. 806 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:09,960 Speaker 3: No, we should not. 807 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 2: We should allow trans people to exist on their own terms, 808 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 2: have conversations with their doctors, with their parents, and the 809 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,760 Speaker 2: government should have nothing to do with it. 810 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:24,319 Speaker 1: It's been absolutely up thrilling to hear both of you 811 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 1: and your obviously personal and heartfelt opinions and the work 812 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 1: that you're doing on this very very very important issue. 813 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 1: Hey guys, thanks for listening to another episode of Six 814 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,440 Speaker 1: Degrees with Kevin Bacon and If you want to learn 815 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,160 Speaker 1: more about how the ACLU is fighting for trans rights 816 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,400 Speaker 1: and how you can get involved, head to their website 817 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 1: ACLU dot org. You can find all the links in 818 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 1: our show notes. Like what you hear, make sure you 819 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,279 Speaker 1: subscribe to the show and tune into the rest of 820 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,840 Speaker 1: our episodes so you can find Six Degrees with Kevin 821 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 1: Bacon on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 822 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:14,759 Speaker 1: See you next time.