1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,520 Speaker 1: Dear listener. It's Maria no Jsa and today we're sharing 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: episode two of USA Versus Garcia Luna. It's a new 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: podcast series from Futuro Investigates in partnership with Lemanada Media. Now, 4 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,479 Speaker 1: if you haven't listened to the first episode, I highly 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: recommend that you do that. You can find episode one 6 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts or on our website Futuro 7 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: Investigates dot org. Now we're going to present the Mexican Hoover. 8 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: That's episode two of USA Versus Garcia Luna. Enjoy Futuro 9 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: Investigates put Investia. Just a quick warning before we start, 10 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: there are some mentions of torture in this episode, so 11 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: just take care. 12 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 2: Previously on USA Versus Garcia Luna, I don't. 13 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 3: Garcia Luna was willing to do so many things for 14 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 3: the Drug Enforcement Administration. 15 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 4: And he's not just anybody. He's the highest Frankie Mexican 16 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 4: official ever to be put on trial for a crime 17 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 4: like this. 18 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: The United States has to look inwards. Two, Garcia Luna 19 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: was working with US government officials. Hello, dear listener, it's 20 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: Maria Nojosa and I'm in the studio with my co 21 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: host Benny Le Ramirez. 22 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 4: Hello, Fudro listener. 23 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: And this is episode two of our series USA Versus 24 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,199 Speaker 1: Garcia Luna. And if you listen to episode one, which 25 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: you definitely should well, dear listener, you know what comes first. 26 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: Right here we go. This one's for Benny Lee because 27 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: she likes a full one. Yeah, I get it forward too, 28 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: so salute Sandu. And you know what, I want to 29 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: laugh even more on this episode than I did in 30 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: the first episode. Do you think that's possible, Beniley. 31 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's possible, because today I have a couple of 32 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 4: videos that I want to show you, Okay, and it's 33 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 4: going to be fun, all right, all right, But just 34 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 4: to give you some context, back in two thousand and nine, 35 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 4: the Mexican government inaugurated this big police Federal Intelligence Center 36 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 4: and they created an ad to promote that center. 37 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: So this would be like the equivalent of the creation 38 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: of the CIA or the FBI. 39 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 4: It was the equivalent to the creation of a big 40 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 4: center that the DA has in Texas, and of course 41 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 4: it was funded with money from. 42 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: The United States. 43 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 4: First, I wanted to see the video and tell me, 44 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 4: what do you say? 45 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: Comes to emo the editing, So. 46 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 3: Like days, that's like informa. 47 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: I mean it looks like a public relations video promoting 48 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: what they call a new police model, and they're like 49 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: showing shots of computers and equipment and essentially, you know, 50 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: this modernized police force. And I mean to me, it's like, wait, 51 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: it looks like they just want to look like American cops. 52 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: American police. 53 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, this is the moment when Mexico wanted to portray 54 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 4: its police as modern and effective and to show that 55 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 4: they were actually fighting the crime and lead in this 56 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 4: air force and all this public relations campaign. Who you 57 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 4: think it was? 58 00:03:53,360 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: Oh my god, our guy A Luna dude. Seriously so 59 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: like he was like in my inestro of like, let's 60 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: do this whole pr thing, Let's make this whole thing 61 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: look like computerized. I mean he he was super savvy 62 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: and strategic. 63 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 4: I mean he had a specific idea of what he 64 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 4: wanted to do. For example, in twenty eleven, his second 65 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 4: to last year as Secretary of Public Security Garcia, Luna 66 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 4: used about ten million dollars in public funds to produce 67 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 4: a TV series, and some of those funds, my sources 68 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,359 Speaker 4: say came from money the US had sent to Mexico 69 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 4: to fight drug trafficking, and the TV series was called 70 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 4: Elkippo The Team. 71 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:41,799 Speaker 1: A television series. 72 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, and this is the second video I want to 73 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 4: show you today. This is a trailer of the team. 74 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: I'm so glad that I don't know what to expect 75 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 1: every time I'm recording this because I'm like, oh my god, 76 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: it's like Law and Order CSIFIC twenty. 77 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 3: Four being Capitolus, anterio is and who Stadia. So they said, okay, 78 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 3: it is espos. 79 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 4: In. The series is for all police officers, So Henaro's 80 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 4: officers were presented as characters from Hollywood. 81 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: Dude, that was very telenovela. There was like some very 82 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: beautiful women there, like kind of love story almost. 83 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 4: And the tagline of the team was Agio saven Kalbi 84 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 4: Benzi almal. 85 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: They know that good always overcomes evil. So it's literally 86 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: like black and white. There's good and there's bad. But 87 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: you can't get away from the fact that there's like 88 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,799 Speaker 1: a serious telenovela underbelly right there, like Hi Storia, Who's 89 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 1: gonna fall in love with who? There's some sex and 90 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: love happening right here with Elekipo, and we're gonna find out. 91 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 4: But you know, Maria. It was a big scandal in 92 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 4: Mexico because the Mexican press then discovered that he was 93 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 4: using real federal police officers as extras in the series. 94 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 4: Are you kidding, I'm not kidding. 95 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: I mean, you can't make this stuff up. 96 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 4: So they were using real police officers as estras. They 97 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 4: were using real equipment, real buildings of the Policy Act. 98 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: Like really dangerous because then you're basically showing the interiors 99 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: of the Federal Police building. 100 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 4: That's a national security institution. So the series was a 101 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 4: big fiasco. Some of my sources told me that in 102 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 4: part was because Garcia Luna insisted himself that his advisors 103 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 4: reviewed every chapter, every script, and the ADA lines to 104 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 4: the script. He was all involved in the series. He 105 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 4: was so proud of the series. 106 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 1: So I'm trying to understand Aundo. So this guy is 107 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 1: like main super cop, but on the side, he's helping 108 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: to create a primetime television series. 109 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, and you think you are multitasking, Marie. 110 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: Dear listener, On this episode, we're gonna try to figure 111 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: out exactly who is Canaro Garcia Luna, Like, how did 112 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: he do this? Where does he come from? How do 113 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: you rise up in the Mexican police, which is like 114 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: massive and becomes so powerful and have this like CSI mentality. 115 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: So again, I have all these questions. Penny, you did too, 116 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: and you spent ten years researching this dude. So okay, 117 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: what do we need to know about Henardo Garcia Luna. 118 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 4: So, Maria Henaro Garzia Luna led the Department of Public 119 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 4: Security of Mexico from two dozen and six to two 120 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 4: dozen and twelve. He was in charge of developing public 121 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 4: security policies and preventing crimes. He was also in charge 122 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 4: of a streamlining police institution, and he also was in 123 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 4: charge of managing the federal prisons. Wow, that means that 124 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 4: he was really powerful. 125 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: I mean that's a lot for one man. That's a lot. 126 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: I mean all of the police teams and the prison 127 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: system under one person. 128 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 4: Okay, all right, right, But I think he also enjoyed 129 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 4: for Garcia Luna to be the super Cup was very 130 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 4: very personal. People who used to work with him told 131 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 4: me that he was obsessed with American police TV shows 132 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 4: and also he was so obsessed with the character of 133 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 4: James Bond that a source told me that when Garcia 134 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 4: Luna turned fifty years old in twenty eighteen, he had 135 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 4: a birthday party with the James Bond team. 136 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: The obsession of CSI and James Bond, you never know 137 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: where can lead you. 138 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 4: Actually, another thing that I found in public documents that 139 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 4: I obtained for my investigation is earlier in his career, 140 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 4: he was the director of the AFI, who was the 141 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 4: Mexican equivalent to the FBI, And back then when he 142 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 4: was in that position, his email address was AFIO one, 143 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 4: so he was the agent number one of the organization. 144 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 4: So he was like, you know, portraying himself of the time, 145 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 4: like I'm the Agent number one, I'm the hero of 146 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 4: this country. But you can have the fantasies, you know, 147 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 4: that's okay, But the problem is if you have those 148 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 4: fantasies with US taxpayers money and Mexican taxpayers money and 149 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 4: public funds. 150 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: Okay, But Benny, how do you know that the guy 151 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: really loved to watch CSI. I mean, okay, it seems 152 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: like he was obsessed with everything like pop culture, Police American. 153 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: But you know, I mean, you watch television in the 154 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: privacy of your own home, So how do you know this? 155 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: How could you know this? 156 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 4: The thing is that when you cover a person for 157 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 4: social period of time. You want to understand the character, 158 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 4: what things he liked, what was his dreams, his routines. 159 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 4: So I interviewed a lot of people, some of them 160 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,839 Speaker 4: on the record, some of them of the record, and 161 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 4: I was trying to understand who was this guy. 162 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 3: Your recordina sumando. 163 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: And that was him. 164 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 3: Pretty pro episodaque montojo monteatro. 165 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 4: Presidentea. 166 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 1: Wow. So the first comment is like he was pretty serious, 167 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: but then pretty quickly after that, every single one of 168 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: them was like, oh no, the guy was like bad dude, 169 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: a rat rat. 170 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 4: Yeah. I heard that types of comments from a lot 171 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 4: of people. But at the same time I have police 172 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 4: officers telling me that Garcia Luna was a hero and 173 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 4: he was saving Mexico and he was dignifying the image 174 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 4: of the Mexican police, so they really lugged up to him. 175 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: So, Benile, you're kind of uncovering this right, Are you 176 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: feeling more confused about Henaro Garcia a Luna. 177 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 4: I like to say this in Spanish. He was not 178 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 4: just a malo de Malolandia, so. 179 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: We have to traveler malo the Malolandia. So he is 180 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: not a bad guy from bad Landia. 181 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 4: You know that doesn't mean that the serious accusations against 182 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 4: him right now are not that serious. But it means 183 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 4: that as a journalist you have to understand all the 184 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 4: angles of the story, not just oh, he was bad 185 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 4: like twenty four hours a day. If you understand the character, 186 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 4: you understand the reasons why he did some things. 187 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: Which leads back to your essential question, how does this 188 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: guy make it all happen? So, what in fact did 189 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: you uncover? Well? 190 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 4: Actually, I found that his background is pretty conventional. He 191 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 4: was born in a very Catholic family, not surprising in Mexico. 192 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 4: He grew up in a working class neighborhood in Mexico City, 193 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 4: and his family had a small moven business, and he 194 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 4: grew up helping his dad with that business. I didn't 195 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 4: find anything remarkable about his childhood at all. I just 196 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 4: found this one story that Garcia Luna liked to tell 197 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 4: people that used to work with him. I have heard 198 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 4: from sources that he used to say that when he 199 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 4: was a teenager, he was a spy for the police 200 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 4: in the neighborhood. 201 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: Already as a teenager. 202 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, he was like a a spi kid. 203 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: How do you spi kid? How do you call that? 204 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 1: In Mexico? Orecas exactly. But so everybody knows is you're 205 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: an ear and if you're an oreca, everybody knows. Essentially, 206 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: to use the street term, it's like you're a snitch. 207 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 4: But the reality might have been something very different. Marion, 208 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 4: So a colleague of mind found that he was not 209 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 4: a spy kid. He was a suspect of comittian pettic crimes. 210 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 4: And the police knew about him, but not because he 211 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 4: was helping them, is because they were following his activities. 212 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 4: And I think this is an important story about him, 213 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 4: because he wanted to be seen as someone that was 214 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 4: always dreaming to be a police officer, you know, a 215 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 4: good cup. But actually he had another dream. I found 216 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 4: that the real story is that what he wanted in 217 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 4: life was to be a soccer player, not a police officer. 218 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: A soccer player. Now. I don't know a lot about sports, 219 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: you know this, This is one thing I don't know. 220 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: It's pretty hard to become a professional soccer player and 221 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: make a living up right, I mean it's like a 222 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: pipe dream almost. 223 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, But as many kids in Mexico and in a 224 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 4: lot of places, they just dreamed to become these giant 225 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 4: soccer stars, especially if you grew up, as he did, 226 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 4: in a working class family. You have these aspirations to 227 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 4: move up and to become a soccer player is a 228 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 4: way to achieve that, to pull yourself and your family 229 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 4: out of poverty. And in the case of Garcia Luna, 230 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 4: one of his former colleagues told me that his dream 231 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 4: was to play in America. Do you know this club 232 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 4: America As. 233 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 1: You don't know, I mean I've heard about it. 234 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 4: You should know America Soccer Club, one of the most 235 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 4: famous Americas. 236 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: Yes, I know, ass Americans. 237 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 4: As America's America. I don't like I don't like them. 238 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 4: I don't like America. And for Pumas, Pumas from the 239 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 4: National University, getting so schooled, done this and I don't worry. 240 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 4: But it's it's a really important, famous soccer club and 241 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 4: that was his dream. But that didn't work. So then 242 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 4: he went to college and he studied engineering and he 243 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 4: got into the New Season, you know, the Center for 244 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 4: Investigation and National Security, the equivalent in Mexico to the CIA. 245 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 4: What is important is that Garcia Luna was part of 246 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 4: a new police generation. The agency that Garcia Luna joined, 247 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 4: the ISSI and as we call it in Spanish. Was 248 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 4: the result of the push of the US to professionalize 249 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 4: the Mexican police, because, as you know, Maria, the Mexican 250 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 4: police was widely regarded as deeply, deeply, deeply corrupt. 251 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: It was part of the state apparatus for sure. 252 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 4: Exactly, so, there was an institution inside the Mexican government 253 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 4: that was called the Directorate of Federal Security, the DFS 254 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 4: La de Vesico Melie. It was a kind of a 255 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 4: mix between the CIA and the FBI. So the DFS 256 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 4: was leading counter terrorism efforts and they were also investigating 257 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 4: insurrection activities in Mexico. They were spying on union leaders 258 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 4: and also journalists. The DFS was also accused of a 259 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 4: lot of illegal detentions, torture, assassinations, and forced disappearances. But 260 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 4: then in the late nineteen eighties, Mexico was starting to 261 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 4: become the main route for the drug traffic in the US, 262 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 4: and in nineteen eighty five, a DEA agent was kidnapped 263 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 4: and killed in Mexico by a drug cattur. 264 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: And everybody knows his name, Enrique Camarina. 265 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 5: Mullin has previously accused Mexican police of not doing enough 266 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 5: to find the kidnappers of American drug agent Enrique Camarina, 267 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 5: who was taken at gunpoint in Guadalajara earlier this month. 268 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: It was the big moment because he was a USDA 269 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: agent killed in Mexico. 270 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 4: So it was a complete scandal, not just in Mexico 271 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 4: but also in the US. Until today, the DEA has 272 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 4: been obsessed with Rafael Karoquintero, the person that they think 273 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 4: is responsible for the killing of Enrique Camarina. Karaquin Pedo 274 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 4: was recently detained again and the US has seek extradition 275 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 4: for him. Back then, according to official allegations, the DFS 276 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 4: was working closely with both criminals and the CIA. 277 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: Okay, I need to say stop for a second, because 278 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 1: you said the DFS, which is the National Federal Police heavies, 279 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 1: they were protecting the drug traffickers. 280 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, and at the same time they were closalized with 281 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 4: the CIA in Mexico. So after the DA found that 282 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 4: one of its agents was killed in Mexico, it was 283 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 4: a complete mess. The Mexican government decided to dissolve the DFS. 284 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 4: They signed the first of many bilateral treaties with the 285 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 4: US and they started collaborating in law enforcement matters. Then 286 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 4: the Mexican government created a news center. They said, this 287 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 4: news center will have new standards. So they, for example, 288 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 4: did psychological and polygraph tests. They did background checks on 289 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 4: your family, and Henaro Garcia Luna passed all the tests. 290 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 4: That's the very moment his career as a cup began. 291 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: And so what you're are we now more or less. 292 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 4: In nineteen eighty nine. And actually I have been interviewed 293 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 4: some people that knew with him back then, and they 294 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 4: told me that he was not any outstanding officer. He 295 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 4: was just an average officer. But actually there he met 296 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 4: another person that was a truly really unintelligence agent, and 297 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 4: that person, Christina became later his wife. 298 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: And we're going to come back to his wife. But 299 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: for now I don't know, because what you're telling me 300 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: is he seemed pretty average, right, you're saying that you 301 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: did your reporting. Even though he was passing all of 302 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: these tests, there was nothing about him that was kind 303 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: of extraordinary. He didn't have the social capital, no esque 304 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: cornosia al yen noiesesa connection. So I'm still a little 305 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: stuck with how do you do that? Because you know, 306 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: in these places there's a Mexican word mucha grilla to 307 00:18:55,080 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: the crickets, Okay, so mucha grilla means that they're like 308 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 1: a lot of movement, a lot of sound, a lot 309 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: of politics. It means you're not able to kind of 310 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: move like the Federal police, unless you know somebody, unless 311 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 1: you're doing a lot of grilla, unless you're making a 312 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: lot of noise. But this guy's moving up even though 313 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: he's kind of a plain guy. I don't understand. 314 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 4: Actually I was surprised by that too, But through my 315 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,719 Speaker 4: research I started to realize, Maria, that Garcia Luna is 316 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 4: this kind of person that will go to great lengths 317 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 4: to achieve his goals. And I want to share with 318 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 4: you a story that one of my sources told me, 319 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:42,919 Speaker 4: and I think this story really illustrates that a former 320 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 4: DA officer based in Mexico told me that during a 321 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 4: holiday season in Mexico, Garcia Luna invited this guy to 322 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 4: his house and after dinner, they went with their wives 323 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 4: to the basement of the house, so Garcia Luna's house, 324 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 4: and it was sort of a secret place. So when 325 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 4: this guy is telling me the story, I'm like, okay, 326 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 4: a basement, secret basement, spy police officer. I'm thinking about 327 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 4: weapons or something like that. But then it is a 328 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 4: room with a couch and a lot of cassettes and 329 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 4: CDs and DVDs, and they spent the night there just 330 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 4: sitting there, not talking, just listening to the music for hours. 331 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 4: And they were listening especially you know, Garcia Luna's favorite 332 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 4: Donna Summer. 333 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: Okay, so here's the other thing. I am obsessed with 334 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: Donna Summer. I mean, I love her. I could dance 335 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: to Donna Summer twenty four to seven. But that's really 336 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: weird to think that I share this with Garcia Luna. 337 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: So strange. 338 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, But you know, in one hand, Garcia Luna is 339 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 4: just this normal person who loved this music. But at 340 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 4: the same time he's trying to impress this DAF He's 341 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 4: trying to show him that they have something in common. 342 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 4: He also liked American music, and of course he's trying 343 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 4: to gain the trust of this important American agent. 344 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: So in Arrogarcia Luna deeply fascinated by everything. 345 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 4: Us from CSI to Donna Summer. 346 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 1: From CSI to Donna Summer. But there were other things 347 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: that he was kind of deeply I don't know, I 348 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: would say maybe he was a little obsessed about it. 349 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: Fitting in proving that he was smart enough convincing an 350 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 1: American dea agent that he was cool because he had 351 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: Donna summer in his basement. And then there was this 352 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: other thing, right, which is that he had a stutter. 353 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: What did he do and why was it such a 354 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: big deal for him? 355 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 4: I think it's because Mexico is a really male machista society, 356 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 4: patriarchal patriarchal, so I think if you have a speech 357 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 4: problem and you want to be the head of the police, 358 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 4: people can actually make fun of you. People can be 359 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 4: really cruel. What I learned from that part of his 360 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 4: life was that he was really obsessed with his speech 361 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 4: problem and he spent years in a speech therapy. 362 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 1: Okay, now I know that we heard a little bit 363 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: of Garcia a Luna's voice in the last episode, but 364 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: after really getting to know this guy, it just it's 365 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: different to hear his voice and frankly, the way he talks. 366 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 4: Yes, And we actually didn't find that many examples of 367 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 4: his starter because my sources told me that he found 368 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 4: a way to deal with this issue by actually not 369 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 4: speaking that much at all, not in public or even 370 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 4: during private meetings. So when he was with his bosses. 371 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 4: He never talked back, and he never argued. Time and again. 372 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 4: People remember that the is that characterized him the most 373 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 4: was yes, sir, Yes, sir. 374 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: And in Spanish. 375 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 4: And my sources told me that Garcia Luna was this 376 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 4: kind of person that would carry the bus breadcases, or 377 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 4: will hold the door open for them. And this attitude 378 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 4: was just convenient to the United States. For example, during 379 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 4: the time when he was the Secretary of Public Security, 380 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 4: there was an unprecedented number of DA agents working in Mexico. 381 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 4: Remember might be Hell, the former chief of the International 382 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 4: Operations of the DA. We heard about him in episode one. 383 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 4: He told me for my book that Garcia Luna allowed 384 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 4: the DA to go practically everywhere they wanted in Mexico. 385 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: Last wet Wali. 386 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 4: But this is illegal. DA agents are not supposed to 387 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 4: go anywhere they want in Mexica because they need permission 388 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 4: from the government. And they even had a nickname for Garzialuna. 389 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 4: Oh my god, you know what the nickname was, the 390 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 4: Mexican Hoover. 391 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: Oh, it's the Mexican j Edgar Hoover, the first director 392 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: of the FBI, who, as we know, was very complicated. 393 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, can you imagine that Maria. 394 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 1: I mean because j Edgar Hoover, He's not really held 395 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 1: in great esteem in the United States. He was paranoid. 396 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: That's been widely documented. We know that he illegally spied 397 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 1: on American citizens, that he was racist and violently against 398 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: the civil rights movement. 399 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 4: And Garzialuna probably knew all of that. One source told 400 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 4: me that Garcia Luna read all the books and watched 401 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 4: all the movies and he knew everything about Hoover. 402 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: Okay, that's just weird. 403 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 4: Now I want to tell you how Garcioluna gained the 404 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 4: trust of Philippe Caldern when he was his boss, because 405 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 4: Garcia Luna was the Secretary of Public Security and Philippe 406 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 4: Caleron was the president. And the short answer to how 407 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 4: he did it was cheese me. He was really good 408 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 4: at gusslipping. 409 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,400 Speaker 1: This guy, this powerful dude, and you're like, link can 410 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: tavel chees me. He loved the gossip, and I'm like, 411 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 1: what are you talking about? 412 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 4: For a political reason. So, for example, during the presidency 413 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 4: of Felippe Calderon from twenty six to twenty twelve, Garcialuna 414 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 4: had a weekly soccer date with his own son and 415 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 4: also with Calderon's son, and this has been widely reported. 416 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 4: But then I learned that Garcia Luna had another weekly 417 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,239 Speaker 4: meeting with Caledon. Officially it was a briefing on the 418 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 4: so called war on drugs, But what my sources told 419 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 4: me was that these meetings were really for Garcia Luna 420 00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 4: to update Calderon about the gossip in his cabinet Mazilla 421 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 4: in it. After those meetings, and I was told this 422 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 4: by a former top officer, Taledo will know everything about 423 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 4: all the people around him. For example, he will know 424 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 4: who is getting divorced, who was dating whom, who was 425 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,360 Speaker 4: having an affair, even who was having. 426 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: A surgery, within the administration. 427 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 4: Within the cabinet. Maybe it's a power thing. I don't know. 428 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 4: Maybe if you are a president of a country, you 429 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 4: just want to know everything. Because actually Galleton was not 430 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 4: the only president interested in gossip. I remember that a 431 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 4: couple of years ago. Michelle Obama said something similar about 432 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 4: Barack Obama in the Late Night Show with the Stephen Colvert. 433 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 1: It's all about the kids, you know, how are your days, 434 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: what's going on, what's the latest gossip. He's really in 435 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 1: the gossip. 436 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,719 Speaker 4: So you can get a really fun because he doesn't 437 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 4: have a life. No, but he's got the NSA and 438 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 4: he can find out what any of us are thinking. 439 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: So gossip as a political tool. 440 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 4: Yeah, but Colbert was making a joke. But the problem 441 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 4: is that in Mexico it was real. 442 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: I just need to take a pause there because this 443 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: gets even crazier. So he just likes gossip. Okay, we 444 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: like gossip, but it doesn't stop there. He's like, I'm 445 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: going to show you how we do gossip here. 446 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 4: Yeah. There's an audio that was linked in twenty twelve. 447 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 4: The person speaking in this audio is j Finavasquez Mota, 448 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 4: who was then a presidential candidate, and she's talking on 449 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 4: the phone with one of her campaign coordinators. But this 450 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 4: is important. She was from the same party of the 451 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 4: government that Garcia Luna was part of, and this is 452 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 4: the audio. 453 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 1: They're actually on this line and they're like, hey, Garcia Luna, 454 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: we know you're recording us. 455 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 4: Hi instead of recording And actually I interview her and 456 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 4: she told me that every person in the cabinet was 457 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,959 Speaker 4: all the time fearing to be recorded by him, and 458 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 4: in every meeting with the president, they were expecting the 459 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 4: president to say something about them like from private conversations, 460 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 4: and Garcia Luna was the person who had those tools, 461 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 4: you know, those tools to record everyone. And those tools 462 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 4: again were donated by. 463 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: The US government. Oh my god, this is kind of crazy. 464 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: So US money was being used to buy equipment which 465 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: was then being used to spy on political opponents within Mexico. 466 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: I mean, remember in episode one we talked about Watergate. 467 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: How water kit has something to do with this, and 468 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: it has to do with this kind of deep corruption, spying, 469 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: super paranoid. 470 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, Maria, and history is full of examples of superpowers 471 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 4: using their resources to inspire on whoever they can an 472 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 4: enemy or they simply don't like. And in the case 473 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 4: of Mexico, the money that was used for surveillance kept 474 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 4: flowing from the US. The former heard of intelligence of 475 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 4: the Mexican army told me that whenever Garcia Luna was 476 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 4: meeting the US authorities, he was always asking for more equipment, 477 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 4: more money. But I found out that at the same 478 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 4: time that the US government was sending money and partially 479 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 4: supporting Garcia Luna and the quote unquote war on drugs, 480 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 4: some US diplomats started suspecting Garcia. 481 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: Luna suspecting that he'd liked done a summer. 482 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 4: What were theetic suspecting that he was, you know, actually 483 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 4: helping the traffickers. And we know this because of WikiLeaks. 484 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 4: Let me tell you, Maria. Starting in twenty ten, WikiLeaks 485 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 4: released thousands of documents from US embasis and consulates around 486 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 4: the world. WikiLeaks gave thousands of diplomatic cables related to 487 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 4: Mexico to the media, and they also published hundreds of 488 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 4: other cables online. I reviewed hundreds of those documents, and 489 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 4: I found that as far as two thousand and nine, 490 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 4: there were suspicions of corruption in the Department of Public Security, 491 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 4: the one that Garcia Luna led. One of the people 492 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 4: who directly denounced that corruption was a guy named Javier 493 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 4: re da Bays. He was a high level officer in 494 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 4: the Federal Police at that time, and I interviewed him 495 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,959 Speaker 4: for my book because I wanted to find out why 496 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 4: he was suspecting Garcia Luna in the first place. Almost 497 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 4: been largest. 498 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: Import I guess what I'm struck with is the ending, right, 499 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: because what he's saying is kind of the height of 500 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: it all. This National Federal Police Department. He says a 501 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: ministravanlos sequestros, they were managing the kidnappings. 502 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 4: I'm like, what, yeah, So Haavierrea finds that Garcia Luna's 503 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 4: close allies were indeed working with the truck traffickers, and 504 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,479 Speaker 4: even worse, they were kidnapping people, especially rich people, and 505 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 4: they were asking for ransoms. But we had to remember 506 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 4: at this point, Maria, that Garcia Luna is one of 507 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 4: the most powerful people in Mexico, just second to the president. 508 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 4: You couldn't just accuse him of something as serious as that. 509 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 4: And I also found that the checks that were supposed 510 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 4: to be in place to prevent corruption weren't really there. 511 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 4: Remember that I said that back in nineteen eighty nine, 512 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 4: Garcia Luna passed all those exams that allowed him to 513 00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 4: become an intelligence agent Unespia. Well, then I found that 514 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 4: after a few years, he never had to undergo another 515 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 4: of those trust exemps again. And I discovered that the 516 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 4: personal financial reports he was feeling in Mexico didn't include 517 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 4: all the properties he was buying. 518 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: So no one was checking that the financial reports were truthful. 519 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: I mean, how does that happen? 520 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 4: You know, some people start asking questions, and one of 521 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 4: them was Javier reawayis. Javier told me that in two 522 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 4: thousand and eight he met with some people from the 523 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 4: US embassy in a secret location in a city close 524 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 4: to Mexico's capital to discuss his concerns about Garcia Luna. 525 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 4: He gave me an exclusive interview in twenty twenty, and 526 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 4: he said that the US officials told him that they 527 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 4: were already investigating Garcia Luna. He also told me that 528 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 4: they offered to get him out of the country in 529 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 4: case that he was in any danger. This was two 530 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 4: thousand and eight, So a week after Reda Baz says 531 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 4: he met with the US diplomat in a secret location 532 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 4: in Mexico. 533 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: To basically say, I think Garzia Luna might be dirty. 534 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 4: He was arrested. Javier was accused of drug trafficking and 535 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 4: he spent four years in prison, and in twenty twelve 536 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 4: he was declared innocent and he was released. He was 537 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 4: told like, oh, we made a mistake, sorry for the inconvenience. 538 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 4: You can go home now. 539 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: Oh my god. So do you think that he was 540 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: that he was arrested in retaliation for the fact that 541 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: he was pointing a finger at Henaro Garzia Luna. That's 542 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: what he thinks Castilla la Patrie and too so like 543 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: the police officers are beating him, torturing him, and they're like, hey, 544 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: what were you doing messing around with Henaro Garcia Una. 545 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 4: So my question is what did the US embassy do 546 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 4: after that? After again, according to Rera Bajes, they met 547 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 4: what happened with the investigation into Garcia Luna and why 548 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 4: it didn't raise more alarms because four years after that, 549 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 4: in twenty twelve, the CIA gave Garcia Luna an award. 550 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 4: This is one of the awards that we mentioned in 551 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 4: the last episode, and in this word they called him 552 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 4: a friend of the United States. 553 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: Dear listener, if you're getting a little confused, it's because 554 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 1: it is confusing. So on the one hand, the US 555 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight is saying we're watching him, 556 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: but in twenty twelve, they're giving him awards and recognitions 557 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: and the CIA and they're saying he's the good cop 558 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: and the guy who's transforming Mexican police. 559 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 4: And people bought it, including US media. The New York 560 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 4: Times wrote a super long profile on Garcia Luna in 561 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 4: two thousand and eight, the same year Jabayaz went to prison. 562 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,439 Speaker 1: I mean just the contrast of that. I mean, it's 563 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:18,800 Speaker 1: just really something. 564 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 4: And it's a very positive profile. So the New York 565 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 4: Times calls Garcia Luna the Fixer, a central player in 566 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 4: the EF force to reform Mexico's. 567 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: Police and you know what, the article doesn't really push 568 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: back on that narrative of Garcia Luna. I mean they 569 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: basically let him talk about how he's cleaning up the 570 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:44,800 Speaker 1: Mexican police force and changing policing forever in Mexico. And again, 571 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: dear listener, this is a person who is now indicted 572 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: in the United States in federal court. 573 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 4: And serious accusations of drug smuggling and you know, lying 574 00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 4: to the US authorities and helping four years drug organic 575 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 4: stations in Mexico to smuggle towns of cocaine to the 576 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 4: United States. 577 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: So one of the things that was happening with Henaro 578 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: Garcia Luna was that he was kind of believing his stuff. 579 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 1: So in bezocre am I right. 580 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 4: Yeah. I think that's a psychological issue actually, because if 581 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 4: you are surrounded by people telling you that you are 582 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 4: a hero, you are saving Mexico, and you have other 583 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 4: people like journalists telling you that your police institution is 584 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 4: not that clean. It's easy to just tell them, oh, 585 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 4: you are crazy. 586 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,839 Speaker 1: Right, because Garcia Luna had all of these awards and 587 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: the recognitions from the US agencies. He has this glowing 588 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: profile in the New York Times. But in Mexico, the 589 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,240 Speaker 1: press was reporting about the crimes of the police force 590 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 1: that he had been meeting. Right. They were saying, this 591 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,760 Speaker 1: guy's got some serious problems with the police force. 592 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, and for years his officers were accused of violating 593 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 4: human rights, of disappearing and murdering people, conducting illegal detentions, 594 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 4: and even torturing detenines. And on more than one occasion, 595 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,240 Speaker 4: Garcia Luna was called to Congress to respond to those accusations. 596 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 4: But as you can imagine, he just denied everything. This 597 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 4: is him before the Mexican Congress in twenty eleven, all. 598 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,800 Speaker 1: And made the La vanguard and Combattle the question. 599 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 4: In La Carpeta universe more important. 600 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 5: That was. 601 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: Right. So this is where it gets confusing, right, I mean, 602 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: Naro Garcia Luna is in front of Congress, he's testifying. 603 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: The media in Mexico is reporting about police officers under 604 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: Garcia Luna's charge are violating human rights, and all of 605 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: this is public so you've got all of this writing 606 00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:00,319 Speaker 1: on the wall raising questions about Garcia Luna. But what 607 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,280 Speaker 1: you're saying is the US government was like, don't worry, 608 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,439 Speaker 1: it's okay. We like this Garcia Luna guy. We think 609 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 1: he is okay. I mean, is that what you're saying. 610 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And why did the US 611 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 4: do that? I don't know for sure, Maria. That's actually 612 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 4: a question I have, and I'm sure many people have, 613 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,840 Speaker 4: and I would like to be able to answer. But 614 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 4: what I did find out was that the suspicious about 615 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 4: Garcia Luna working with the cartels go even further. Back 616 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 4: in twenty twenty, I recorded an exclusive interview with HENERL. 617 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 4: Roberto Ilera. He was the head of intelligence in the 618 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 4: Mexican Army from two thousand to two thousand and six, 619 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 4: and he told me that he opened an investigation into 620 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 4: Garcia Luna's police officers back in two thousand and one. 621 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: Dude, so almost twenty years before Garcia Luna was finally 622 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:58,720 Speaker 1: arrested in Texas. Twenty years before that, there were suspicions. 623 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,799 Speaker 4: And Maria, do you know what else happening to one? 624 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 4: It was the year when El Chapo's man escaped from 625 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,760 Speaker 4: prison for the first time, and I will tell you 626 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 4: all about that. 627 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 1: But you know what's gonna happen. It's gonna happen on 628 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,239 Speaker 1: the next episode, So be sure to listen. 629 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 4: Stay tuned. 630 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 2: Salute on the next episode of USA Versus Garcia Luna. 631 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 1: I don't know why we're going into Queens. I just 632 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: know we're on our way to Greek all right, any day, 633 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: So what do you see. 634 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:40,240 Speaker 4: It's a big installation. They have like different warehouses. 635 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: All right, let's get out. That's what exactly is the 636 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 1: connection of Garcia Luna to this place. 637 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 2: USA Versus Garcia Luna is an original production by Futuro Investigates, 638 00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 2: a division of Futuro Media, in collaboration with Latino Lemonara 639 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 2: Media is our advertising and distribution partner. Our hosts are 640 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 2: Maria Najosa and Penile Ramirez, executive producers of Futuro ov Inojosa, 641 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 2: the Investigations and Special Projects division of Futuro Media. The 642 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 2: series is edited by Andrea Lopez Grussavo. Our associate producers 643 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:25,760 Speaker 2: are Roxanna guire Sofia Sanchez and Oscar Vellon. Fact checking 644 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 2: by Amy Tardiv, Nancy Trujigo and Raoul Perez are our 645 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 2: project managers. Our engineers are Stephanie Lebou, Julia Caruso and 646 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,319 Speaker 2: Lea Shaw Damron. Original theme song by Jacob Rosari. This 647 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 2: series was made possible with support from the W. K. 648 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 2: Kellogg Foundation, Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, and Hispanics in Philanthropy. You 649 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,719 Speaker 2: can listen to USA Versus Garcia Luna wherever you get 650 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 2: your podcasts and on our website Futuro Investigates dot Org. 651 00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 2: That's Futuro Investigates dot Oorg. Visit our site to find 652 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 2: more information on USA versus Garcia Luna. We contacted or 653 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 2: attempted to contact all the individuals and entities mentioned in 654 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,960 Speaker 2: this episode. Some could not be reached or declined to comment, 655 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 2: and others did not reply to our emails or phone calls. 656 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 2: The answers we did receive are included in this episode.