Speaker 1: Hi, get everybody. I'm Dan Horde and thanks for downloading
Speaker 1: The Bengals Booth Podcast. The is still on the line addition,
Speaker 1: as we discuss how the Bengals can improve their offensive
Speaker 1: line with Brandon Thorne, the author of the Trench Warfare newsletter.
Speaker 1: Coming up, we'll discuss free agents Ryan Jensen, Lake and Tomlinson,
Speaker 1: Brandon Schurf, and others. Then we get into potential first
Speaker 1: round draft picks, including Iowa center Tyler Linderbaum. And finally,
Speaker 1: Brandon tells us why it's way too soon to give
Speaker 1: up on Jackson Carmen and the Bengals other recent offensive
Speaker 1: line draft picks. The Bengals Booth Podcast is presented by
Speaker 1: Ultimate Bengals. Download Ultimate Bengals ahead of the twenty twenty
Speaker 1: two season. It's free to play next level fantasy football
Speaker 1: with fantastic Bengals prizes. Get it now on the App
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Speaker 1: you can have the latest edition of this podcast delivered
Speaker 1: write to your phone, tablet, or computer by subscribing wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. It's the greatest thing since the
Speaker 1: pen tell Energell zero point seven millimeter pen. There was
Speaker 1: a story about Zach Taylor in The Athletic that was
Speaker 1: written by Dan Pompey back in November that mentioned Zach's
Speaker 1: favorite pen. The Bengals head coach apparently swears by the
Speaker 1: Pilot brand point zero seven millimeter. Now, I'm not much
Speaker 1: of a pen guy, to be quite honest. I typically
Speaker 1: steal them from hotel rooms. But I recently stumbled upon
Speaker 1: the pen tell Energill zero point seven millimeter pen, and
Speaker 1: I think it's turning me into a pen snob. There's
Speaker 1: something about the quality of this pen that turns my
Speaker 1: chicken scratch handwriting into calligraphy. Taking a quick look at Amazon,
Speaker 1: it gets eighty nine percent five star reviews. For what
Speaker 1: it's worth, the Zach Taylor pen only gets eighty four
Speaker 1: percent five star reviews. It appears that my pen is mightier.
Speaker 1: Now time to hear from my guest, Brandon Thorne, author
Speaker 1: of the Trench Warfare newsletter, where he writes about and
Speaker 1: does video studies of offensive and defensive line play. Brandon,
Speaker 1: the Bengals are obviously determined to improve their offensive line.
Speaker 1: They've got the thirty first overall pick, they have two
Speaker 1: extra draft picks as well, and they're likely to have
Speaker 1: more than thirty million dollars in cap space? How would
Speaker 1: you go about addressing it? If you're the Cincinnati Bengals,
Speaker 1: I would look to getting the best guys I could
Speaker 1: possibly get. As simple as that sounds, I think you
Speaker 1: could pretty much upgrade any position on the line. I
Speaker 1: think probably your best spot right now is you know,
Speaker 1: left tackle and Jonah Williams, but I mean even he
Speaker 1: could be upgraded by somebody like toront Armstead. But you know,
Speaker 1: that's best case scenario there. Otherwise, I think the other
Speaker 1: four positions are pretty much up in the air. So
Speaker 1: you know, I would look at best player available, and
Speaker 1: there's a couple interesting guys in free agency and in
Speaker 1: the draft that I think could could provide that. Well,
Speaker 1: let's start with free agency then, because there are some
Speaker 1: Pro Bowl level players out there. You mentioned Ton Armstead
Speaker 1: from the Saints. He's a three time Pro Bowl left tackle.
Speaker 1: You've got a left guard brand and sure if a
Speaker 1: five time Pro bowler, do you favor spending a big
Speaker 1: chunk of that cap space on a guy like that
Speaker 1: or signing multiple lower priced free agents. Yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: really interesting discussion. You know, team building philosophy for offensive line.
Speaker 1: We've seen it I think done more successfully recently with
Speaker 1: the Ladder in terms of adding multiple, you know, guys
Speaker 1: at more discount type prices. You look at how the
Speaker 1: Bills built their offensive line a couple of years ago
Speaker 1: when they retooled it. You know, they signed I think
Speaker 1: three or four maybe five guys, and then they drafted
Speaker 1: Cody Forward as well. And you know, I think that
Speaker 1: gives you a lot. It just increases your margin for
Speaker 1: error that way a little bit more. You could kind
Speaker 1: of just get by with that's, you know, just having
Speaker 1: solid guys everywhere as opposed to just kind of center
Speaker 1: pieces or pillars at a couple of places. So that
Speaker 1: worked for them, and then the Chiefs, the Chiefs kind
Speaker 1: of you know, they just allocated so many resources to it.
Speaker 1: They didn't necessarily just get solid players. They got like
Speaker 1: a really good left tackle, a really good left guard,
Speaker 1: and then they hit it out of the park in
Speaker 1: the draft. You know, it's center and right guard. So
Speaker 1: you know, ideally that's how you do it, but that
Speaker 1: doesn't always work. Obviously, you know, they had they had
Speaker 1: to have had a lot go right. Plus I'm big
Speaker 1: on believing, like who your offensive line coaches. I think
Speaker 1: Cincinnati has a pretty good one in Frank Pollock. You know,
Speaker 1: Kansas City has a very good one in Andy Heck.
Speaker 1: Plus the infrastructure around them, the scheme the quarterback helps,
Speaker 1: which I think since he has some of those similar parallels,
Speaker 1: so I think that they could execute a kind of
Speaker 1: a similar plan here. I don't know, I'm not too
Speaker 1: familiar with cap situations and things like that, but you know,
Speaker 1: a guy like Toront Armstead would be an impact guy,
Speaker 1: and then if you have enough money to go get
Speaker 1: somebody else like a Ryan Jensen or something like that.
Speaker 1: I mean that right there would completely transform the line.
Speaker 1: And then if you can draft one or two as well,
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, you know, you could have
Speaker 1: three four new starters. So I think it really depends
Speaker 1: on what players we're talking about in terms of how
Speaker 1: I would approach it. To me, I believe Toron Armstead
Speaker 1: is worth, you know, investing significant amount of money in
Speaker 1: and making him the highest paid guy in the league
Speaker 1: if need be considering the caps going up, all that
Speaker 1: will probably look like a bargain deal in one or
Speaker 1: two years. He's young enough to where I think that
Speaker 1: makes sense. The injury history is there, and it's you know,
Speaker 1: he's played eleven and a half games over the last
Speaker 1: five years on average, so that's you know, a consideration.
Speaker 1: But I think even if you're getting him for twelve, thirteen,
Speaker 1: fourteen games, that's worth it just because of how good
Speaker 1: he is. So that's one guy that I would advocate for,
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of investing a lot in the
Speaker 1: offensive line, is like my centerpiece. But then other guys
Speaker 1: like Schurf. His injury history to me is a little
Speaker 1: bit even almost more concerning than Tehran so and plus
Speaker 1: he's a guard, not a tackle. So I don't know
Speaker 1: if I would necessarily go there with Schurf, but I
Speaker 1: can understand if they did. Yeah. I mean, I'm a
Speaker 1: big fan of Ryan Jensen as well. You know, I
Speaker 1: think he's a game changing presence on the interior. He's
Speaker 1: a tone setter, he's very smart. He could handle all
Speaker 1: the protections, you know, alleviate some of that pressure of Burrow,
Speaker 1: kind of like how Corey Linsley did for you know,
Speaker 1: justin Herbert last year in Los Angeles, a similar effect.
Speaker 1: Although I think Jensen's better, I think he's more of
Speaker 1: an impact guy than Lindsley. Lindsley's more of a technician
Speaker 1: who's smart. Jensen's more of a smart guy who can
Speaker 1: physically impose, you know, himself on guy defenders in the
Speaker 1: pass and run games. He's scheme diverse, he's big, you know,
Speaker 1: he's Lindsley's a little undersized. Jensen's a big starting center.
Speaker 1: So and he hasn't missed a game in like four
Speaker 1: or five years. So Jensen and Armstead I think are
Speaker 1: the two prize, like top prizes on the free agent
Speaker 1: market right now in terms of offensive lineman. But there's
Speaker 1: some other good ones as well, so you know, there's
Speaker 1: other ways to attack it. Ryan Jensen's thirty. He's probably
Speaker 1: the free agent offensive lineman who has been linked to
Speaker 1: the Bengals the most. Frank Pollock at the combine talked
Speaker 1: about wanting glass Eaters to have that personnelity on his
Speaker 1: offensive line, and it sounds like Ryan Jensen fits all
Speaker 1: of that. Plus, while he'll probably be high priced among
Speaker 1: the center free agents out there, he certainly wouldn't cost
Speaker 1: as much as Toronto Armstead, right right, yeah, because what
Speaker 1: is the top of the market for center, like thirteen
Speaker 1: million or so a year, and then tackle is you know,
Speaker 1: you'd have to go over like close to twenty or whatever.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean it makes sense, you know, given
Speaker 1: the scarcity of the tackle position out there, you know,
Speaker 1: compared to center, there's more starting level centers and tackles.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so that makes sense. But Jensen, I mean,
Speaker 1: if Pollock said that in terms of glass eaters, you know,
Speaker 1: and that whope dynamic of what you want an offensive lineman,
Speaker 1: Jensen as the poster child for that, So that makes
Speaker 1: a lot of sense. We're talking to Brandon Thorne. He
Speaker 1: is the author of the Trench Warfare newsletter. I subscribe.
Speaker 1: It's the best content out there to learn about offensive
Speaker 1: and defensive line play. Let's talk about Laramie Tunsel. There
Speaker 1: have been reports that he could be available in aid
Speaker 1: with the Texans. What would you think of the Bengals
Speaker 1: trying to trade for him, you know, so largely contingent
Speaker 1: on the compensation for him. I mean, I think when
Speaker 1: he's healthy, he's one of the six or seven probably
Speaker 1: best left tackles in football, you know, somewhere around there.
Speaker 1: So you know, you're definitely getting a top ten guy
Speaker 1: if he's healthy at a premium position. So I'm I
Speaker 1: would imagine that would require a lot of resources. He's
Speaker 1: he's fairly young as well. I want to say he's
Speaker 1: like twenty seven or so, twenty eight somewhere in there.
Speaker 1: So you're getting a guy who's still in his prime. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's very appealing to me. For sure. He's
Speaker 1: he's a better pass protector than run run blocker, but
Speaker 1: he's still solid as a run blocker. But he's a
Speaker 1: guy that you can, you know, leave on an island
Speaker 1: against most competition off the edge, and that really frees
Speaker 1: up an offense in a lot of different ways. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, he's he's a very appealing piece, depending on
Speaker 1: what you'd have to pay for. It all about the compensation.
Speaker 1: As you pointed out, he has signed for a couple
Speaker 1: more years, which is also a positive in his case,
Speaker 1: although he is making big bucks. Let's get back to
Speaker 1: free agents centers. The Bengals have Trey Hopkins under contract
Speaker 1: for one more year, but he's coming off to tourn
Speaker 1: acl from a couple of years ago. He struggled quite
Speaker 1: a bit this past season, and there have been a
Speaker 1: lot of talks that the Bengals will make him a
Speaker 1: cap casualty if the Bengals don't sign Ryan Jensen because
Speaker 1: there'll be a lot of competition for his services. A
Speaker 1: couple of other names that have been mentioned are Bradley
Speaker 1: Bozeman from Baltimore and Ben Jones from Tennessee. Good fits
Speaker 1: for the Bengals. Um, yeah, I think they're pretty good fits.
Speaker 1: I prefer Ben Jones even though he's older, you know,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, he's what five years older I'm
Speaker 1: looking at than Bozeman, So in terms of long term,
Speaker 1: obviously you'd go Bozeman. Plus he has more positional versatility.
Speaker 1: He's played guard, you know, which helps. But I just
Speaker 1: think Jones is a better player. I'm a big fan
Speaker 1: of Ben Jones, so, you know, he's one of those
Speaker 1: guys who has been really underrated for you know, I
Speaker 1: think half a dozen years now that I've been watching him.
Speaker 1: He's a guy who's a very good run blocker, and
Speaker 1: he's a pretty good pass protector. You know, he's a
Speaker 1: guy who can definitely handle the mental side of it
Speaker 1: as well. He's been doing it a long time in Tennessee.
Speaker 1: He really succeeds in a kind of a similar type
Speaker 1: of scheme, is of compared to what the Bengals run
Speaker 1: more so than Bozeman. You know, Bozeman's coming from Baltimore's
Speaker 1: heavy gap scheme, whereas Ben Jones has been blocking in
Speaker 1: Tennessee scheme, which is more wide tighten zone, you know,
Speaker 1: which is kind of more similar to what Cincinnati does.
Speaker 1: So I think it makes more sense from a schematic
Speaker 1: perspective to get Ben Jones. And I just always been
Speaker 1: a fan of him. I just think he, you know,
Speaker 1: to get kind of technical. He plays with really good leverage,
Speaker 1: and he understands how to stay attached to blocks, and
Speaker 1: it's very impressive how he works combinations with the guards.
Speaker 1: And he's been doing that for so long in Tennessee.
Speaker 1: He's been one of the more underrated parts of their
Speaker 1: run game. The work that he's done with Roger Saffol
Speaker 1: next to him and then Nate Davis. I mean, he's
Speaker 1: kind of he's a key cog in what they do.
Speaker 1: And from everything I've heard, you know, consummate leader, all
Speaker 1: that type of stuff, you know, checks all those boxes
Speaker 1: in terms of what he can bring to the locker
Speaker 1: room and that kind of thing. So yeah, I'm a
Speaker 1: big fan of Ben Jones, but he's just more of
Speaker 1: a short term answer as opposed to Bozeman, where you
Speaker 1: can maybe expect him to, you know, be there a
Speaker 1: little bit longer. We're talking to offensive line defensive line
Speaker 1: expert Brandon Thorne. You can follow him on Twitter at
Speaker 1: Brandon Thorne NFL. Let's move to guards. If there's one
Speaker 1: name that's been mentioned most frequently where the Bengals are concerned,
Speaker 1: it's Lake and Tomlinson from San Francisco. What would you
Speaker 1: think of that marriage. I think it would make sense,
Speaker 1: you know, again, kind of a similar scheme, you know,
Speaker 1: with San Francisco being his own heavy place Tomlinson is.
Speaker 1: It's almost a little redundant to me. With Spain, you know,
Speaker 1: I kind of see them similar. You know, they're more
Speaker 1: kind of a they're very physical tone set or kind
Speaker 1: of guys good play strength. You know, they can get
Speaker 1: in trouble if they're isolated in past protection against sub
Speaker 1: package rushers, you know, and and really good three techniques.
Speaker 1: You know, they're not going to be guys who are
Speaker 1: going to be very good in past protection. A little
Speaker 1: bit stronger as run blockers. Maybe a slight upgrade over Spain,
Speaker 1: you know, but I don't know that it's significant. So
Speaker 1: you know, if you just want to slightly upgrade the
Speaker 1: position and get a guy who I think is a
Speaker 1: little bit younger that kind of thing, then you know,
Speaker 1: it makes sense. But you know not I don't think
Speaker 1: it would be a you know, a game changing presence.
Speaker 1: But I mean, Tomlinson is a guy who, you know,
Speaker 1: if he's your maybe fourth best offensive lineman, then that's
Speaker 1: really good. You know, if he's your second best, you know,
Speaker 1: it's your line might not be you know, that great,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So it's that's kind of
Speaker 1: how I see him. I see him as kind of
Speaker 1: just a solid, solid starter, which is fine, you know,
Speaker 1: if you want to go that approach, If you want
Speaker 1: to take that approach and you know, add him with
Speaker 1: some other guys, I get it. But if he's kind
Speaker 1: of your prize guy in free agency, you know, that's
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly how much better you got in
Speaker 1: general terms. Do you subscribe to the theory that the
Speaker 1: line is only as good as its weakest link? I
Speaker 1: think so, yeah, I think there's a lot of merit
Speaker 1: to that, you know viewpoint for sure, because from what
Speaker 1: I understand how pass rushers and how defensive coordinators defensive
Speaker 1: line coaches approach game plans, they're always looking for the
Speaker 1: quote unquote fish. You know, I've heard it called, or
Speaker 1: you know, just one. They're always looking for that guy
Speaker 1: that they can isolate in a game plan, and that's
Speaker 1: the guy that they're keying on. They're always trying to
Speaker 1: even if it's only two or three times a game,
Speaker 1: you know, as long as it's in a high leverage situation,
Speaker 1: they're going to be trying to isolate that guy against
Speaker 1: a good a good pass rusher, and a lot of
Speaker 1: the times they're able to accomplish that. I mean, you
Speaker 1: can't protect a weak link all game long. Typically a
Speaker 1: lot has to go right for that to happen. So
Speaker 1: I think you're playing with fire if you're you know,
Speaker 1: you're building a line and just leaving one spot kind
Speaker 1: of weak and you're trying to, you know, protect him
Speaker 1: with scheme and stuff like that all games. It's tough.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I do think there's a lot of merit
Speaker 1: to that. My broadcast partner, Dave Lapham, former Bengals offensive lineman,
Speaker 1: would be smiling right now. He also uses the expression
Speaker 1: the fish. Can you guys have that in common? Let's
Speaker 1: talk about some of the other guards. Some names that
Speaker 1: have been mentioned possibly where the Bengals are concerned, Connor
Speaker 1: Williams from Dallas, Austin Corbett from the Rams, Andrew Norwell
Speaker 1: from the Jags, who is from the Cincinnati area. Do
Speaker 1: those guys or any of the other available guards out
Speaker 1: there really appeal to you? So out of those names,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a pretty big fan of Austin Corbett. So
Speaker 1: he's a guy that I've watched a lot of over
Speaker 1: the last couple of years. Was a twenty twenty. I
Speaker 1: thought he was a top ten right guard in the
Speaker 1: NFL in twenty twenty. This year this past season, maybe
Speaker 1: a little bit of a dip in his play in consistency,
Speaker 1: but still there's some there's some upside with Corbette that
Speaker 1: I don't think is there with those other guys. Maybe
Speaker 1: Connor Williams has some of that upside, but I haven't
Speaker 1: seen it on the field actually materialized as much as
Speaker 1: I have with Corbett. I think Connor is more up
Speaker 1: and down, especially in past protection. He struggles. I mean,
Speaker 1: he's he's a good athlete, and he's young. He's somebody
Speaker 1: who you you know with a good line coach, you
Speaker 1: know and stuff like that. I can understand wanting to
Speaker 1: get him in the building and try to mold him
Speaker 1: and improve him over time, but that would probably be
Speaker 1: my next choice. But I like Corbett. I think his
Speaker 1: play strength is really impressive as a run blocker and
Speaker 1: in his anchor and pass protection a lot of the
Speaker 1: time as well. You watch him last year against the Bucks,
Speaker 1: what he did against Sue was very impressive, and then
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, I have a whole tape you can go
Speaker 1: on my Trench Warfare site. Every positive block he made
Speaker 1: that season I have on my my sub stack, so
Speaker 1: people can really see what he would bring. But just
Speaker 1: a really good run blocker pass protection. This year, like
Speaker 1: I said, took a little bit of a dip, But
Speaker 1: I like him. I think he's a, you know, probably
Speaker 1: an above average starter at right guard, so you know
Speaker 1: somewhere in that ten to you know, twelve range or
Speaker 1: so of right guards across the league. So yeah, I
Speaker 1: prefer Corbett personally. That's one of my favorite guys in
Speaker 1: the free agent class. Do you see much left in
Speaker 1: the tank for Andrew Norwell, not a whole lot, but
Speaker 1: a little bit. You know, he's a guy who he
Speaker 1: definitely is a really good processor in terms of handling
Speaker 1: himself in pass protection and seeing things quickly. He can
Speaker 1: decipher stunts and line games and blitz is very quickly.
Speaker 1: But there's just not the same level of explosiveness and
Speaker 1: juice as there once was, you know. When he signed
Speaker 1: that deal in Jacksonville, became the richest guard in NFL history,
Speaker 1: you know. And I watched him a lot in Carolina.
Speaker 1: I've loved him in Carolina. Former undrafted guy. I love
Speaker 1: those kind of guys. But yeah, I just think physically
Speaker 1: there's a lot of wear and tear there. Maybe like
Speaker 1: on a very short term basis, you know, he could
Speaker 1: provide maybe a little bit of an upgrade over Spain.
Speaker 1: But I'm not sure how much we're talking here because
Speaker 1: I kind of like Quentin Spain for what he is,
Speaker 1: you know. So I think we're all talking about kind
Speaker 1: of middle of the pack, were below kind of guys
Speaker 1: right now, but I think Corbett is maybe more above that.
Speaker 1: So but yeah, that's kind of how I see no
Speaker 1: ORL right now. Brandon Thorne is our guest. He is
Speaker 1: the author of the Trench Warfare newsletter. Again, I subscribe
Speaker 1: and I highly recommend it. If you're interest didn't learning
Speaker 1: more about offensive and defensive line play, Let's move to tackles.
Speaker 1: Aside from Tehran Armstead, who will be the highest priced
Speaker 1: free agent tackle out there, what other guys are available
Speaker 1: that you like? So on a short term basis, there's
Speaker 1: some there's some bridge type guys at left tackle, at
Speaker 1: least if if Cincinnati wanted to move Jonah Williams to
Speaker 1: the right side or whatever, you know, I guess that's feasible.
Speaker 1: You know, he played right tackle at Alabama at least
Speaker 1: for one season. So Dwayne Brown is a guy who
Speaker 1: I like. He kind of he definitely dipped last year
Speaker 1: compared to twenty twenty. Twenty twenty he was excellent, Like
Speaker 1: he was one of the five or six best left
Speaker 1: tackles in the game. In twenty twenty, twenty twenty one,
Speaker 1: it was a little bit more up and down. Their
Speaker 1: whole offensive line was really But I think if you're
Speaker 1: talking about for a year or two, Dwayne Brown is
Speaker 1: somebody that I would really like. And then another guy
Speaker 1: kind of like that who's maybe doesn't even have that
Speaker 1: much left in the tank. He's four years old. Jason Peters.
Speaker 1: You know, Peters is a guy if he's like your
Speaker 1: fourth best offensive lineman at this point, third maybe then
Speaker 1: that's pretty good. But I just I'm watching every snap
Speaker 1: of him for a highlight tape I'm making, and Peters
Speaker 1: was better than I think a lot of people thought,
Speaker 1: considering he was thirty nine last year and he got
Speaker 1: signed Layton training Camp all that stuff. He has some
Speaker 1: pretty impressive reps that he put on tape and definitely
Speaker 1: isn't the same guy. You know, he's a Hall of Famer,
Speaker 1: but he's not what he once was. But he's so crafty.
Speaker 1: He's still very strong, and I think he's a guy
Speaker 1: that you can definitely win with if you signed him
Speaker 1: on obviously like a one year deal, but in terms
Speaker 1: of like answers, you know, long term at the tackle position,
Speaker 1: I don't really think you're going to find anybody in
Speaker 1: free agency. You know, I'm looking at the list again,
Speaker 1: but I mean for more than one or two years.
Speaker 1: I mean, I really like Trent Round, but it's just
Speaker 1: tough to bank on him being available week in week out.
Speaker 1: But his upside I think is probably the highest after
Speaker 1: Armstead in the whole class um. But there's a lot
Speaker 1: of variants there, so that one's tough. But yeah, tackle
Speaker 1: is just the position on the line. It's like quarterback.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, they very rarely hit the market
Speaker 1: like Toronto Armstead does. You know where you're getting the
Speaker 1: top three or four guy at his position, and they
Speaker 1: just don't make a lot of those guys. You know,
Speaker 1: there's just there's just not a lot of offensive tackles period,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean it's funny I talk about this
Speaker 1: kind of a sidebar, but like the developmental leagues that
Speaker 1: pop up, I always say that it might as well
Speaker 1: be seven on seven because the offensive line is always
Speaker 1: going to be bad in those. It's just it's just
Speaker 1: the way it is, especially tackle, because there's not enough
Speaker 1: to fill NFL rosters, you know, let alone developmental league.
Speaker 1: So um, yeah, it's just the way it is tackle.
Speaker 1: I mean, the demand is always gonna outweigh the supply.
Speaker 1: It's just always going to be that way. And I
Speaker 1: think that's the case here in terms of long term answers.
Speaker 1: There's some short term guys I likee Like I said,
Speaker 1: but long term you got to go in the draft.
Speaker 1: You know, pretty much Morgan Moses doesn't do much for
Speaker 1: you that would probably he'd probably be in the top five,
Speaker 1: you know, if we're talking about short term again for him,
Speaker 1: you know, he's younger than those other guys for sure. Moses, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's a guy who's played injured a lot over the
Speaker 1: last few years. I'm not I'm not sure how much
Speaker 1: longer he would have at a very high level. We're
Speaker 1: at a high level, but yeah, he's a guy, you know,
Speaker 1: I would say after I think Trent Brown is definitely
Speaker 1: better than Morgan Moses, but Morgan Moses is more reliable,
Speaker 1: so he might have more value in a lot of ways,
Speaker 1: which I totally get. But yeah, he's He's definitely one
Speaker 1: of the five best. You know, I'd say Trent Brown, Peters,
Speaker 1: Dwayne Brown, Moses Armstead, those would probably be my top
Speaker 1: tackles in the free agency market before we get to
Speaker 1: the draft. Between the regular season and the four playoff
Speaker 1: games last year, Joe Burrow out sacks seventy times, and
Speaker 1: Zach Taylor often points out it's not all on the
Speaker 1: offensive line in the Bengals case. How much validity is
Speaker 1: there to that, I mean, I think maybe not. I
Speaker 1: don't totally agree with that, but I understand what he's saying.
Speaker 1: I mean, just generally speaking, Yeah, I get that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, sacks oftentimes are more the onus is more
Speaker 1: on the quarterback than the offensive line. But in Cincinnati's case, specifically,
Speaker 1: I think the offensive line was clearly an issue, especially
Speaker 1: on the right side. You know, when you had multiple
Speaker 1: backups in there, Isaiah Prince and you know, kind of
Speaker 1: that rotation at right guard, and that was an issue.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, you can't roll out Isaiah Prince at
Speaker 1: right tackle and expect to you know, block high level
Speaker 1: edge rushers, and then at right guard as well. With
Speaker 1: Identity and Jackson Carmen. I mean, I think, obviously Carmen,
Speaker 1: you still want to have him compete for a job
Speaker 1: next year. He's a rookie, he's very young, all that
Speaker 1: type of stuff. I still think there's a pathway for
Speaker 1: him to start. But yeah, I just they had multiple
Speaker 1: backup caliber players playing on the right side, and you know,
Speaker 1: they did obviously a very admirable job as it collectively
Speaker 1: as a whole as an offense getting to where they
Speaker 1: got and producing how they produced. But when you isolate
Speaker 1: the offensive line, it was certainly an issue on the
Speaker 1: right side. Especially Carmen and Identagy were both tackles in
Speaker 1: college and tried to play right guard last year in
Speaker 1: the NFL. How difficult is it to make that switch,
Speaker 1: especially early in your NFL career. I think it's I
Speaker 1: didn't watch a dentagy in college, but I wrote a
Speaker 1: full scouting report on Jackson Carmen. People can read online
Speaker 1: if you just google that. But Carmen I saw his
Speaker 1: guard in the NFL because of his struggles attackle at Clemson.
Speaker 1: The thing about moving that makes it more difficult inside
Speaker 1: from outside is if you switch sides as well, which
Speaker 1: Carmen did. It's not like he was a right tackle
Speaker 1: going to right guard. He's a left tackle going to
Speaker 1: right guard. So that kind of, you know, rows a
Speaker 1: bigger wrench in sort of just the biomechanical aspect of
Speaker 1: switching positions. Not only are you doing that, but you're
Speaker 1: switching the side. So you just have to kind of
Speaker 1: reconfigure your technique in a way. You know that is difficult.
Speaker 1: You know, people have compared it to writing with your
Speaker 1: opposite hand. You know people have tried that. Obviously, see
Speaker 1: how foreign that is. It's how weird it is, and
Speaker 1: that's kind of a similar dynamic. It takes a lot
Speaker 1: of reps. It takes a lot of practice, and you
Speaker 1: just have to learn and kind of rewire your body
Speaker 1: to operate on a different side. Your strengths, you know,
Speaker 1: become like the dominant side becomes your non dominant side
Speaker 1: and vice versa. And that's that's difficult. So some guys
Speaker 1: adapt to it way better than others. But I say
Speaker 1: that I would say that's the exception more than the rule.
Speaker 1: Most guys, if you're switching side, it's very difficult and
Speaker 1: it takes time, especially as a young guy like you said.
Speaker 1: So I'm still you know, I think I gave Carmen
Speaker 1: a third round grade. You know, I thought his technique
Speaker 1: needed a lot of work at tackle hand usage, stuff
Speaker 1: like that, getting too wide, you know, allowing guys to
Speaker 1: get inside his chest and not playing with good leverage.
Speaker 1: But in terms of sheer, explosiveness, power size, those kind
Speaker 1: of things he has. So there's a foundation there to
Speaker 1: become a starter, I think. So I would still expect
Speaker 1: him to compete for a job at least. But yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: But to answer your original question, the right side was definitely,
Speaker 1: you know, a major issue. We're chatting with Brandon Thorne,
Speaker 1: the offensive and defensive line guru. You can follow him
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Brandon Thorne NFL. Let's get to the draft.
Speaker 1: The Bengals have the thirty first overall pick. Let's just
Speaker 1: say they stay there at thirty one. Who are some
Speaker 1: offensive linemen that you think have a decent chance of
Speaker 1: still being there at thirty one that interests you? Well,
Speaker 1: we'll start interior first. I'm looking at the interier. I
Speaker 1: think Tyler Linderbaum could be there. Obviously, he's for me,
Speaker 1: one of the three best offensive linemen in the class.
Speaker 1: So you know, the thing with him is he has
Speaker 1: thirty one and one eighth in charms, which is you know,
Speaker 1: it's a concern, you know. I mean, there's gonna be
Speaker 1: certain matchups in the NFL, certain nose tackles and other
Speaker 1: rushers who are going it's going to be very difficult
Speaker 1: for him to prevent them from accessing his frame and
Speaker 1: controlling him. You know, that's just something you're gonna kind
Speaker 1: of have to live with and you're gonna have to
Speaker 1: adapt to him. So that's why I think he might
Speaker 1: be available there. Even though what he does in the
Speaker 1: run game I believe is really special and I think
Speaker 1: he's much more powerful than somebody like Garrett Bradberry coming out,
Speaker 1: who's oftentimes the comparison for him. I think he's very similar,
Speaker 1: but he's just more powerful. So that to me would
Speaker 1: I think translate to him being a better run blocker.
Speaker 1: But I equated to how the Eagles treat Jason Kelsey,
Speaker 1: Wh's not every team is equipped to do this, but
Speaker 1: in Philadelphia, the guards are not allowed to help the
Speaker 1: tackles in pass protection because they have to stay inside
Speaker 1: and help Kelsey. And that's just what you have to
Speaker 1: do with Jason Kelsey. You have to help him in
Speaker 1: pass protection against certain guys because he's two hundred and
Speaker 1: eighty five pounds, you know, he's two hundred and ninety
Speaker 1: pounds whatever he is, you know, and he just doesn't
Speaker 1: have the mass and the girth and the lower half
Speaker 1: strength to hold up, you know, against certain guys. So
Speaker 1: he has brand. He had Brandon Brooks on one side,
Speaker 1: Isaac Siamalo on the other. They always had giant guards
Speaker 1: next to him, and that's because they had elite tackles
Speaker 1: and Peters and Lane Johnson, so they were able to
Speaker 1: do that, you know. Ideally, That's kind of the situation
Speaker 1: that Linderbaum goes into a place that has two bigger
Speaker 1: type of guards who can provide him some help and
Speaker 1: really good tackles. Now, obviously not a lot of teams
Speaker 1: are able to provide that infrastructure, so the you know,
Speaker 1: in terms of projecting lender Bomb, it becomes tricky, you know.
Speaker 1: But that's why I think he could be available there.
Speaker 1: Even though early in the process he was sometimes rumored
Speaker 1: to be a top ten pick, I don't think that's
Speaker 1: going to happen now. So lender Bomb is a guy
Speaker 1: if they want to upgrade center and especially in the
Speaker 1: run game, and just offer something totally different than Trey
Speaker 1: Hopkins in terms of what he can do in the
Speaker 1: zone run game. And then there's two guards that I
Speaker 1: could see being available there at Zion Johnson, who's probably
Speaker 1: my biggest guy in the draft. I was very high
Speaker 1: on him, and when I wrote his report in January
Speaker 1: had him as a first round pick, and then he
Speaker 1: crushed the Senior Bowl process, crushed the Combine and that
Speaker 1: was just awesome. He even exceeded my expectations at the Combine.
Speaker 1: So and I'm very high on Zion. I think Zion
Speaker 1: is a plug and play guard. He is very well
Speaker 1: rounded technically sound, strong, powerful. I mean, not the most
Speaker 1: physically imposing guy because he's you know, just I mean
Speaker 1: six six two and a half three fifteen, so he's
Speaker 1: not like the biggest guard, but plenty of size. He's
Speaker 1: he has a great build and all that stuff. He's smart,
Speaker 1: you know, play processing skills are impressive. I mean, I
Speaker 1: just think he's very well rounded. I compared him to
Speaker 1: Kevin Zeitler actually so, and I can kind of see
Speaker 1: like that type of player, you know, where Zeitler was
Speaker 1: above average for a decade, you know, maybe a little
Speaker 1: better at times as well. So that's kind of how
Speaker 1: I see Zion. Kenyan Green is another guy who could
Speaker 1: be available there. I think it's possible. He's he has
Speaker 1: a little bit more flashes of power than Zion does.
Speaker 1: He's bigger, you know than Zion, but I just think
Speaker 1: technically he has more. He's not as clean as Zion
Speaker 1: Johnson is, So I have a second round grade on
Speaker 1: Kenyan Green, but he's gonna go in the first round probably.
Speaker 1: So those would be three guys on the interior that
Speaker 1: I think would be really nice for the Bengals to
Speaker 1: get any one of those guys. And then as far
Speaker 1: as tackle. I think you're looking at two names really
Speaker 1: maybe three, but Bernard Raymond, Trevor Penning, and Daniel Filele.
Speaker 1: I personally have Filele with like a mid to late
Speaker 1: second round grade, more late second, but I think it's
Speaker 1: feasible he could go there. It depends on if Raymond
Speaker 1: or Penning are gone, you know. I think those are
Speaker 1: the two you're looking at there in terms of tackle,
Speaker 1: and I have both of their grades. For me personally
Speaker 1: is like a fringe first, so late first, early second,
Speaker 1: that's how I see them. I'm sure Penning will go higher,
Speaker 1: He'll he probably won't be available, honestly, but I think
Speaker 1: Raymond is probably the guy who could be available there.
Speaker 1: And I compared him to Jake Matthews. So if you
Speaker 1: just think about Jake Matthews, who he is as a player.
Speaker 1: He's solid to above average at times, but more so
Speaker 1: middle of the pack tackle, really athletic. I think he's
Speaker 1: probably stronger than Jake Matthews coming out. The only thing
Speaker 1: is with Raymond he has short arms, which isn't as
Speaker 1: big of a deal to me as it maybe just
Speaker 1: some other people. The one thing that's kind of concerning
Speaker 1: is he's gonna be a twenty five year old rookie,
Speaker 1: so he's gonna be older. The only thing with that
Speaker 1: is there's kind of a dichotomy there because he's only
Speaker 1: played eighteen games of offensive line in his life. So
Speaker 1: even though he's older, he's very young in terms of,
Speaker 1: you know, football player, in terms of playing offensive line,
Speaker 1: and he's already very like, very polished for only playing
Speaker 1: eighteen games. It's really impressive, So I think he can
Speaker 1: still get quite a bit better even though he's older.
Speaker 1: So I like Raymond a pretty good amount. So I
Speaker 1: would say probably the top guys is like linder Bomb,
Speaker 1: Zion Johnson, and Bernard Raymond. Those are probably the three,
Speaker 1: and I would be very happy with probably any of
Speaker 1: those guys if I was a Bengals fan. So linder
Speaker 1: Bomb played at Iowa, Zion Johnson Boston College, Raymond at
Speaker 1: Central Michigan. I think if you look at the Bengals
Speaker 1: recent draft history, they tend to go for major friends lineman,
Speaker 1: at least with their early picks. Do you have any
Speaker 1: concern about a guy who played at Central Michigan being
Speaker 1: a first round pick? A little bit, but at thirty
Speaker 1: one then you know not as much there You know,
Speaker 1: because that's that's just at the tail end, and you
Speaker 1: just want to prevent you know, the top of the
Speaker 1: second round teams from getting him, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: And even though he might be a top second, top
Speaker 1: of the second kind of value, if you get him
Speaker 1: at thirty one, I think that's okay. So yeah, but
Speaker 1: I think always, yeah, if you're if you're drafting a
Speaker 1: smaller school guy, you want to see them dominate, you know,
Speaker 1: And Raymond I wouldn't say was dominant, but I would
Speaker 1: say he was very good and at the Senior Bowl
Speaker 1: was up and down. So there's there's some you know,
Speaker 1: definitely you could poke holes in his evaluation. That's why
Speaker 1: I have a fringe first on him. You know, it's
Speaker 1: not quite a first, you know, it's not quite a
Speaker 1: it's kind of like right in that pick thirty one range.
Speaker 1: So to me it would make sense. But I can
Speaker 1: understand how if you're a little lower on a guy
Speaker 1: like that. But I mean linder Bomb, you know, obviously
Speaker 1: he went to Ye, Well that's a big school, and
Speaker 1: Zion at Boston College in the a SEC. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not the SEC or even the Big ten, but
Speaker 1: I mean Zion was very well coached at Boston College.
Speaker 1: I think they were. They were one of the best
Speaker 1: offensive lines to watch in the country. I mean, you
Speaker 1: could tell they're all on the same page. Their offensive
Speaker 1: line coach just got hired to coach the Dolphins. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be too concerned with those other two. But yeah,
Speaker 1: a guy like Raymond Central Michigan's a different story, you know,
Speaker 1: So I understand that. So when you talked about linder Bomb,
Speaker 1: I heard the red flags and I didn't necessarily hear
Speaker 1: why I should be excited if the Bengals wind up
Speaker 1: getting him at thirty one? What are the strengths? Why
Speaker 1: are people high on Tyler linder Bomb despite the fact
Speaker 1: that his arms are a little more than thirty one inches,
Speaker 1: So pretty much directly from my report, you know, very
Speaker 1: good initial quickness, contact balance, and body control. Um, he
Speaker 1: stays attached to blocks consistently. He doesn't fall off blocks
Speaker 1: really ever. I think his grip strength is amazing that
Speaker 1: kind of bleeds into that once he gets latched into defenders,
Speaker 1: he's not coming off really ever. And he's very explosive
Speaker 1: through the drive portion of blocks, so he can create
Speaker 1: displacement in the run game. And then how he works
Speaker 1: combo blocks is it's masterful. He's very good at work
Speaker 1: in combination blocks in terms of knowing how to overtake blocks,
Speaker 1: how to climb, when to climb, the timing aspect of it,
Speaker 1: how to fit on blocks. He's very adept at that.
Speaker 1: So his zone run games, you know, I'm sure they're
Speaker 1: gonna love him. And he applies consistent pressure on defenders
Speaker 1: through the whistle. He has really good leg drive. He's powerful,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, he gets a lot of knockdowns
Speaker 1: in college. I'm not sure he'll get as many as
Speaker 1: in the pros, but he's gonna definitely, i think, create
Speaker 1: displacement in the pros. And you know, in past protection,
Speaker 1: I think when he's uncovered, he looks for work very well.
Speaker 1: He can find work at a high level, and he
Speaker 1: provides a lot of thump and power on adjacent rushers
Speaker 1: to kind of collapse guys. You know, he'll find their
Speaker 1: rib cage and their hip and he'll really knock him
Speaker 1: over with violence. So he's a very physical guy as well.
Speaker 1: So I mean, I think he's gonna bring a lot
Speaker 1: just to a run game. And the other thing is
Speaker 1: he's devastating at the second level. So if he gets
Speaker 1: attached to a linebacker or a dB, which he has
Speaker 1: the athleticism to do, I mean, he's gonna probably get
Speaker 1: a pancake you know, a lot of the time. So
Speaker 1: he's he's just uh, I think he's a you know,
Speaker 1: an impact run blocker. So that's what you're getting. You're
Speaker 1: getting somebody like Bradberry can do certain stuff in the pros,
Speaker 1: like he's really good on screens, he can reach shades sometimes,
Speaker 1: but he just gets He's just not strong and powerful
Speaker 1: enough really, and I think that's where Linderbaum separates himself
Speaker 1: from a guy like that, and he could, you know,
Speaker 1: just be better than Bradberry, I think. But you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's the size and the anchoring ability and pass
Speaker 1: protection that people have questions about. But he's not a
Speaker 1: bad pass protector in terms of technique, you know, using
Speaker 1: his hands and stuff like that. He can get better.
Speaker 1: And I think if he does get better, it can
Speaker 1: kind of mitigate some of his concerns. So he has
Speaker 1: room to improve too. I mean it's not like he's
Speaker 1: it's not like he's maxed out. You know, he's not
Speaker 1: coming in the NFL like this is what you're getting,
Speaker 1: you know, period, I feel like he has room to
Speaker 1: grow with his technique as a pass protector to where
Speaker 1: he can get better. You know what I mean. I
Speaker 1: don't think for Brandon Thornton. I'll let you go. The
Speaker 1: Bengals drafted three offensive linemen last year. Jackson Carmen obviously
Speaker 1: was the highest drafted in the second round, and Duke Tobin.
Speaker 1: The direct your Player Personnel made the point at the
Speaker 1: scouting combine that it takes a while, particularly nowadays, for
Speaker 1: many offensive linemen to adapt to the differences from college
Speaker 1: football to the NFL. How long do you give a guy?
Speaker 1: I mean, I know it varies from person to person,
Speaker 1: but do you typically know within a couple of years
Speaker 1: whether a guy's going to be any good or not?
Speaker 1: I think you can, you can know. I really think
Speaker 1: you have to look at what's around a guy a
Speaker 1: lot of the time. You know, like who's playing next to,
Speaker 1: who's his coach, what's his scheme? Does it fit him
Speaker 1: a perfect examples Lake and Tomlinson in Detroit. Everyone said
Speaker 1: he was a bust, you know, first round pick went
Speaker 1: to Detroit, struggled. I've heard some crazy stuff about the
Speaker 1: offensive line coach there at the time, and what the
Speaker 1: just crazy dynamics there in terms of locker room stuff
Speaker 1: that went on. I still saw flashes of brilliance from
Speaker 1: Lake and Tomlinson in Detroit. I wrote an article about
Speaker 1: it back in the day. He had an incredible against
Speaker 1: Mike Daniels when Mike Daniels was at his peak in
Speaker 1: Green Bay. So he had flashes, but he was very
Speaker 1: up and down. Goes to San Francisco after three or
Speaker 1: four years in Detroit, and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: he looks like a totally different player. He's in the
Speaker 1: perfect scheme, he's playing for a great coach, he's playing
Speaker 1: next to Joe Staley. You know, all this stuff happens
Speaker 1: to him, and then you got an above average guy
Speaker 1: for a few years, solid guy. So I like to
Speaker 1: think at least two or three years typically. I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously a lot of guys don't get that. It depends
Speaker 1: on what you where you get drafted as well. Obviously
Speaker 1: your leash is longer the higher you get drafted. But
Speaker 1: ideally you want to give a guy two or three years,
Speaker 1: and you want to assess everything around him as well.
Speaker 1: And really, when you drill into the tape and you
Speaker 1: search for, you know, flashes, and then you ask yourself
Speaker 1: why those aren't more consistent. Then you start to look
Speaker 1: at the outside picture around him, and then sometimes it
Speaker 1: makes sense. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's just like, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is what he is. You know, he has a
Speaker 1: pretty good coach, he has pretty good players around him,
Speaker 1: and he's just very inconsistent. But then sometimes you know,
Speaker 1: you got a guy like I mean, Jackson Carman is
Speaker 1: an interesting one to kind of tie to him because
Speaker 1: he's so young. You know, he's twenty one or whatever.
Speaker 1: Twenty two came in very young, left or it probably
Speaker 1: left Clemson probably a year or two early, switching side,
Speaker 1: switching positions, playing next to you know, a guy like
Speaker 1: Isaiah Prince who's providing zero stability for him at all.
Speaker 1: And then you know, Hopkins helps, you know, to some degree,
Speaker 1: but he wasn't in a great position either last year,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of I feel like you've got
Speaker 1: to be patient with a guy like this. You know,
Speaker 1: you have to give him at least another year to
Speaker 1: me all things considered. So yeah, I mean it's really
Speaker 1: a case by case basis, but you know, I hopefully
Speaker 1: I can I answered some of that, you know, by
Speaker 1: finding some examples there. But yeah, I mean, yeah, it's interesting,
Speaker 1: it's fun discussion. Our guest has been Brandon Thorne. He
Speaker 1: is the author of the Trench Warfare Newsletter. It's great.
Speaker 1: It's the best content out there about offensive line play
Speaker 1: and defensive line play as well. I'm really enjoying it.
Speaker 1: I'm a recent subscriber, and I look forward to learning
Speaker 1: more throughout the course of the year. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for your time, and hopefully we'll do this again
Speaker 1: down the road. Absolutely, anytime you're interested in Brandon's newsletter
Speaker 1: and video breakdowns, just do a search for Trench Warfare
Speaker 1: Newsletter and you'll find a link with information on how
Speaker 1: to subscribe. It costs eight dollars for a month or
Speaker 1: eighty five dollars for a year. That's going to do
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Speaker 1: Bengals fans find us. I'm Dan Horde and thanks for
Speaker 1: listening to the Bengals Boot Podcast.