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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio. Robert J. Marks is a distinguished professor of

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Speaker 1: electrical and Computer engineering at Baylor University, for whom my

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Speaker 1: respect went up enormously after you all beat KU a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago. Yes, that was interesting. It was awesome,

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Speaker 1: is what it was. It was awesome, and I'm a

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Speaker 1: member that I'm here in the Big twelve with you,

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Speaker 1: but at you know, much smaller case date. But we

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Speaker 1: we celebrated that win. That our head coach just quit

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Speaker 1: for a football team. No, yeah, he went to the NFL.

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Speaker 1: The oh yeah, that's right. I forget something that. Lately,

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Speaker 1: college head coaching has become kind of a revolving door,

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Speaker 1: so it's hard for me to keep track of where

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Speaker 1: people are going. But I did hear that. And the

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Speaker 1: NFL needs it because they've got a bunch of they

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Speaker 1: got a bunch of stale coaches there. They got to

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Speaker 1: keep up. But that's part of the same thing here too.

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Speaker 1: It's we always have to be forward thinking and always

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Speaker 1: thinking what what is not what necessarily we're facing today,

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Speaker 1: but what we could be facing five years from now.

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Speaker 1: And in your book, which by the way is available

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Speaker 1: free if people want to. You can link up to

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Speaker 1: that at Coast to coastm dot com and get a

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Speaker 1: free copy of the Case for Killer Robots. Is that

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Speaker 1: this is again we're arguing about some sort of convergence

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Speaker 1: point in the future between what we need to have

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Speaker 1: in our arsenal and what others are going to have

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Speaker 1: in theirs. Yes, and I think in order to do

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Speaker 1: that we need to have a nice, sober, informed discussion

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Speaker 1: about the limits of AI. Right I think the way

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Speaker 1: things are informed in the media, there is this idea

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Speaker 1: that AI someday will be sentient, or be creative or

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Speaker 1: understand No, it will never do any of those things.

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Speaker 1: That's back pretty solidly by evidence and computer science. So

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Speaker 1: once you put that aside and look at artificial intelligence

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Speaker 1: in an informed, a sort of matter manner, you can

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Speaker 1: actually see some of the limitations that are going to

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Speaker 1: be imposed on artificial intelligence and the weapons of the future.

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Speaker 1: It's never going to become like Skynet in the Terminator movie,

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Speaker 1: rights never going to become like the Matrix where we're

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Speaker 1: all in bathtubs of good and literal virtual reality world

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Speaker 1: that's not too different than my life right now. By

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Speaker 1: the way, so I'm not sure you can make that claim.

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Speaker 1: But but when you say that, I also have to

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Speaker 1: point out though that although you are right and we

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Speaker 1: know I mean, it's still sometimes easy to put everything

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Speaker 1: down a level, say the media. But however, we look

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Speaker 1: at movies, TV. You know, there's still stories that come out,

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Speaker 1: say out of Japan, where they're working on robots that

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Speaker 1: mimic human emotions. So they may not generate it, but

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Speaker 1: there does seem to be an interest in some levels

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Speaker 1: of science to create at least an effect of human

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Speaker 1: empathy or sympathy, or to fulfill a function, and that

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Speaker 1: that that this would be part of some future development

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Speaker 1: of artificial intelligence. Well, the mimicking itself, the mimicking of

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Speaker 1: human emotion, is not really that difficult. It turns out

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Speaker 1: that we are prewired as little babies. My daughter just

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Speaker 1: had twins, so I know a lot about being right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they can they can actually see about a foot in

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Speaker 1: front of them, and their brains are prewired to notice faces.

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Speaker 1: And this gives rise to something called the Uncanny Valley hypothesis,

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Speaker 1: and it has to do with the Dipper and regression curve.

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Speaker 1: But basically the idea is that the emotional response to

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Speaker 1: things which are close to human are much more severe

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Speaker 1: than if they don't relate to humans. You think back

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Speaker 1: to the nineteen thirty two movie Frankenstein with Boris Karloff. Sure,

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Speaker 1: he kind of walked around really slowly, and if you

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Speaker 1: were on crutches you could outrun the I and probably

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Speaker 1: Mike Tyson could take him out with a couple of punches.

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Speaker 1: But he was creepy, and he still gives you the

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Speaker 1: creeps because he resembled a human being. The science fiction

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Speaker 1: author Isaac Asimov actually coined the term the Frankenstein effect,

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Speaker 1: and that is the fear that we have of robots

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Speaker 1: or anything that looks human. Yeah, and I think that

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Speaker 1: that that that is the kind of that it was

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Speaker 1: a human version of an automaton which had already existed

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Speaker 1: in our culture and in our cultural imagination. So whether

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Speaker 1: we were creating um, you know, essentially arcade features that

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Speaker 1: were very realistic looking automatons basically very complicated clock but

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Speaker 1: one that sort of gave the effect of a human interaction,

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Speaker 1: or if we even go back and we look at

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Speaker 1: in religious lore about the creation of a mindless automaton,

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Speaker 1: that was, you know, created out, created in flesh. This

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Speaker 1: is this is what people fear because we've always feared it,

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Speaker 1: as your point, but I don't know that it is

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Speaker 1: entirely without basis of fearing it. When we look at

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Speaker 1: people who are modern computer scientists who are still trying

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Speaker 1: to come up with robots that will that will do

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Speaker 1: better than that and will appear empathetic and not scary,

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Speaker 1: and they will appear very sweet, and they might be

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Speaker 1: able to cradle a baby and be able to comfort

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Speaker 1: that baby instead of just having some bassinet rocking back

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Speaker 1: and forth. Yeah. Absolutely, one of the things that always

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Speaker 1: needs to be defined as what is meant by being better? Better?

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Speaker 1: In what sense? Yeah, I think you actually meant in

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Speaker 1: the cradling of the robot. In terms of artificial intelligence,

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Speaker 1: the artificial intelligence itself has little to do with the packaging.

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Speaker 1: So you can package artificial intelligence in a robotic sort

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Speaker 1: of not in a robotic but a humanoid sort of

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Speaker 1: sort of thread like like the Transformers, or you can

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Speaker 1: package artificial intelligence in missiles, So the actual artificial intelligence

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Speaker 1: has little to do with the packaging. And some of

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Speaker 1: these things that I see in the media, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you've heard of the robot Sophia. She's supposed

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Speaker 1: to be able to have conversations with you and express

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Speaker 1: human emotions, and actually, to me, she's not that impressive

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Speaker 1: because basically what she does is is raises an eyebrow,

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Speaker 1: does a little grimace, and these are things again that

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Speaker 1: we're tuned to recognize, and it's sure easy to program.

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Speaker 1: And her background is in her conversational skills that are

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Speaker 1: kind of on the level of Alexa, right right, But

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Speaker 1: look how much Alexa is taking over, you know, homes

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Speaker 1: in many ways, and how people have you know, I'll

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Speaker 1: grant you that the human interaction with Alexa is something

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Speaker 1: that Alexa is not aware of, not in any sension way.

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Speaker 1: But we do what with that type of technology, what

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Speaker 1: we do with dogs. I'm pretty sure my dog completely

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Speaker 1: understands why I was bothered by having to write for

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Speaker 1: Syllabi yesterday. I'm pretty sure that he completely got my

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Speaker 1: point and that was wrong to have to do in

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Speaker 1: one day. But you know, he's just looking at me.

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Speaker 1: He has no idea what I'm talking about, but I

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Speaker 1: feel like he knew, And I think this is where

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Speaker 1: maybe this is the great challenge, is not getting the

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Speaker 1: media to articulate it better. Although that there's truth to that,

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Speaker 1: and look, we're trying to do it right now. But

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Speaker 1: it's whether science is going to be whether the people

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Speaker 1: who are developing it are going to continue to be

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Speaker 1: as engaged with the public and making their case for

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Speaker 1: its necessity instead of doing that Ivory Tower thing, which

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Speaker 1: is we're going to go do this thing and we'll

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Speaker 1: let you know later on when we finished. Well, if

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Speaker 1: you actually think about it, and we are really blessed

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Speaker 1: with artificial intelligence today, I think some of these things

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Speaker 1: were kind of numbed by familiar familiarity, right the Lexa.

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Speaker 1: We got Uber and Google search engines, Series and Amazon shopping,

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Speaker 1: bitcoint So we have artificial intelligence all around us that

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Speaker 1: is doing some great and wonderful things. So that's the challenge.

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Speaker 1: Though then when we talk about this in a military context,

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Speaker 1: is that what will how will great and wonderful interpret

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Speaker 1: to military artificial intelligence or will it only feel great

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Speaker 1: and wonderful when it's our drones doing the killing and

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Speaker 1: not us being killed by enemy drones. Well, here is

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Speaker 1: the unfortunate conclusion I would submit is we do not

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Speaker 1: have a option in terms of pursuing the artificial intelligence development.

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Speaker 1: Again pointing to history, technology has actually increased the posture

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Speaker 1: of nations. It is one wars, it's shortened wars. The

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Speaker 1: atomic bomb shortened World War Two, as did the Norden

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Speaker 1: bomb site, as did the decoding of the Nazi Enigma code.

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Speaker 1: All of these were technology, technological things which helped shorten

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Speaker 1: the war. A big one was actually radar that we

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Speaker 1: that the enemy didn't know about. The nazison or the

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Speaker 1: Japanese knew about until the day of japan surrender. But

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Speaker 1: I had an uncle that was in the Pacific Theater

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Speaker 1: and he was supposed to jump behind enemy lines with

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Speaker 1: twenty four pounds of explosive on his legs. He was

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Speaker 1: a paratrooper. He was supposed to go behind enemy lines

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Speaker 1: and blow up stuff. But he was so happy when

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Speaker 1: he heard about the bomb, the atomic bombs, because he

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Speaker 1: was able to come home to West Virginia where I'm from,

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Speaker 1: and raise a family and lived at the ripe old

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Speaker 1: age of ninety wherein jumping behind lines would have been

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Speaker 1: a suicide mission. Now, the atomic bomb killed I think

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Speaker 1: about two hundred and twenty thousand people. Just terrible. But

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Speaker 1: if you look at historians, one of them was Philip Jenkins.

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Speaker 1: He says story and here at Baylor he estimates that

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Speaker 1: the dropping of that bomb saved ten million lives, not

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Speaker 1: only the Allies invading Japan, not only the Japanese fighting back,

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Speaker 1: and they actually had death over surrender in their philosophy,

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Speaker 1: but all of the occupation that Japan was doing with

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Speaker 1: China and North Korea. And there was a standing order

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Speaker 1: in incarceration camps that in case the camp was to

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Speaker 1: be overrun, all of the prisoners wouldn't be killed. Sure,

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Speaker 1: and he makes ten million, So this is an unfortunate

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Speaker 1: but it's unfortunate aspect of the nature of man that

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Speaker 1: we have to do it. But I remember, we have

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Speaker 1: no choice, Okay, But this is I think you are

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Speaker 1: actually making a case against your point. And I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you why. First of all, by as chance would have it,

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Speaker 1: I too had an uncle that was in the Pacific Theater,

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Speaker 1: and he shared the same feelings with me many times.

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Speaker 1: Even though he's very much of a pacifist in other respects,

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Speaker 1: he had fought alongside He was in Patent's Army in

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Speaker 1: Italy and he was being transferred to the South Pacific,

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Speaker 1: and he felt his luck had just run out. He

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Speaker 1: had survived, you know, a year in Europe which was

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Speaker 1: on her. He was the most senior guy in his

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Speaker 1: little group, and he thought there was no way he

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Speaker 1: was going to survive a Japanese invasion, and so there

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Speaker 1: was always part of him that was grateful for that bomb.

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Speaker 1: But I think this is the point, is that we

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Speaker 1: still humans, still selected that target, right, So that's my

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Speaker 1: point that I say, I think that's where again we

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Speaker 1: come back to something which might undermine a little bit

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Speaker 1: of that parallel. Although I know you're not making too

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Speaker 1: big a comparison allowing machines to select their targets, allowing

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Speaker 1: machines to decide that this is the human I'm supposed

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Speaker 1: to kill. That's the part that I think is where

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Speaker 1: we were We all should shudder a little bit because

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Speaker 1: it's not as though machines are in fact collible. And

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Speaker 1: we know this from even a previous tech that you

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Speaker 1: mentioned about face recognition software, where people have been accused

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Speaker 1: of crimes or arrested on the basis of a walking

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Speaker 1: down the street in London which they turned out not

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Speaker 1: to be the person of interest that police were looking for,

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Speaker 1: or even as we were talking about last week with

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Speaker 1: a guest who is in the CIA, where they were

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Speaker 1: just going on algorithms, and they were choosing people that

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Speaker 1: on the basis of their name, where they were from

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Speaker 1: other aspects of their life, which turned out to be

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Speaker 1: a false subset of data to go arrest somebody, disrupt

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Speaker 1: their lives for like six months, and then let them go.

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Speaker 1: And they were able to determine that they weren't the

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Speaker 1: person that they were looking for. That's the part that's scary.

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Speaker 1: We were in that case of the algorithm. Law enforcement

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Speaker 1: was subservient to the algorithms equation to the actual conclusion

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Speaker 1: that it came to. And they said, well, we have

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Speaker 1: to go do it because the algorithm told us to.

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Speaker 1: And then that's where the face recognition software as well,

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Speaker 1: this is what they say we should. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's the part that's scary about about lethal you know,

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Speaker 1: for example, lethal drones. Oh, by the way, I totally

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Speaker 1: agree with you. I think that the human needs to

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Speaker 1: be in the loop when in all possible, and autonomous

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Speaker 1: should actually be used as a last resort. But there

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Speaker 1: are cases where autonomous weapons are going to be required.

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Speaker 1: The military and Engagement has something they called uda O

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Speaker 1: DAWN stands for Observe, Orient, detect and I'm sorry, Observe, Orient,

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Speaker 1: decide and attack UDA. And many times the success of

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Speaker 1: an engagement is determined by how quick your UDA is.

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Speaker 1: And in some cases we're going to have udas, which

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Speaker 1: if humans are deciding, this is just going to be

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Speaker 1: too long, especially if our adversaries are using artificial intelligence.

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Speaker 1: So it's actually, in some cases it's going to become

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Speaker 1: like a I don't know, the Gunslinger movies of the

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Speaker 1: Old West, where you have these two cowboys standing next

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Speaker 1: to each other in a showdown of the street and

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Speaker 1: whoever's the fastest drama is going to be the winner, right,

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Speaker 1: And so we are going to have scenarios like that

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Speaker 1: one of them. For example, I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: remember the arcade game Space Invaders. Yeah, I was pretty

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Speaker 1: good at it. Yeah, alright, we're okay. What you know

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Speaker 1: that Space Invaders started out and it went really slow

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Speaker 1: at first, right then at the last at least the

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Speaker 1: way I played it, I wasn't. I wasn't as good

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Speaker 1: at it. You couldn't aim anymore. There was just too

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Speaker 1: much happening. You actually had to do a splatter hit

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Speaker 1: on all that and just hope you survived in some way.

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Speaker 1: So that is an example of where autonomy might be required.

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Speaker 1: If one is overwhelmed by attack in such a manner

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Speaker 1: that humans cannot comprehend what is going on, then you

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Speaker 1: know you have to go to autonomy. If you don't

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Speaker 1: want to surrender, Listen to more Coast to Coast AM

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Speaker 1: every weeknight at one am Eastern and go to Coast

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Speaker 1: to coastam dot com for more