Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I am Akshatrati. This week breakthroughs on
Speaker 1: the Grid. If you're caught up on the last few
Speaker 1: episodes of Zero, we've been talking about the grid, how
Speaker 1: it so magically brings electricity into our homes, and what
Speaker 1: is going to take to update and upgrade the grid
Speaker 1: as we electrify more and more of our world. A
Speaker 1: good amount of the grid is visible. You've seen miles
Speaker 1: and miles of cables that bring you electricity, more than
Speaker 1: thirty million miles actually, but there's a lot that you
Speaker 1: don't see. You don't see or hear about the people
Speaker 1: whose labor and ideas make the grid better. So in
Speaker 1: our third episode and for now final episode of the
Speaker 1: Grid series, we look at one such innovation. What if
Speaker 1: instead of rolling out new cables, we gave the old
Speaker 1: ones a high tech makeover. I don't know if there's
Speaker 1: it's I'm sure I'm missing something. It just it makes
Speaker 1: no sense to me that this is not bendable.
Speaker 2: If you have a sharp age here, yeah, it's gonna snap. Yes,
Speaker 2: that had been the problem of the order generation product. Yeah.
Speaker 2: When you have the aluminum protectingly carbon core, yeah, now
Speaker 2: you can bend it. You will yield. But you were nasnat.
Speaker 1: That's Jason Hung. He has a PhD in material science,
Speaker 1: and he's used that expertise to launch a startup focused
Speaker 1: on equipping the grid with a new generation of extremely
Speaker 1: durable cables. Because we'll talk a lot about cables in
Speaker 1: this episode, let me try to tell you a little
Speaker 1: bit more. First, the cables that are deployed for high
Speaker 1: voltage transmission, essentially those hanging between pylons, look nothing like
Speaker 1: a normal wire. It's not just a bigger version of
Speaker 1: a cylindrical copper wire covered in insulation, the kind you
Speaker 1: use for a phone charger. Instead, it's a steel cable
Speaker 1: that provides strength to a bunch of insulated aluminum wires
Speaker 1: that are wound around the steel cable, all of which
Speaker 1: is then wrapped in insulation. TS Conductor's main innovation has
Speaker 1: been replacing the steel cable core with a carbon fiber
Speaker 1: core and making circular aluminum cables be trapezoidal in shape.
Speaker 1: That means they can use the space more efficiently, and
Speaker 1: Monk tells me these new cables can carry as much
Speaker 1: as three times more electricity, a game changer and maybe
Speaker 1: the first of many big innovations on the grid that
Speaker 1: will cumulatively have huge impacts. I sat down with Jason
Speaker 1: at the Breakthrough Energy Summit in London in June to
Speaker 1: find out more. Jason, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Thanks for the opportunity to be here.
Speaker 1: Now, there's a term that I know you're very familiar with,
Speaker 1: but which listeners may or may not be familiar with. Reconductoring.
Speaker 1: It refers to replacing old transmission lines with sturdy, new
Speaker 1: high capacity conductors. And one reason is to make the
Speaker 1: lines stronger, strong enough to be able to withstand heavy winds,
Speaker 1: durable enough to have very little sagging, because sagging lines
Speaker 1: can spark wildfires. But there's another reason, which has to
Speaker 1: do with the energy transition. Can you explain what reconductoring is.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Reconductoring typically refers to the need to use a
Speaker 2: different conductor than the conductor that's used. This involved two situations.
Speaker 2: One is you don't have to retrofit any struck. The
Speaker 2: other one you may have to retrofit the structure, make
Speaker 2: them taller because there's a lot more sag, or the
Speaker 2: cross arms of the tower had to be strengthened because
Speaker 2: you're using a behavior conductor and I should add a
Speaker 2: comment about the reconductoring. Why utility does reconductoring. It is
Speaker 2: actually principally driven by capacity. They have capacity constrain, a bottleneck,
Speaker 2: for example, so they are looking at a higher capacity
Speaker 2: conductor to the bottomneck the grid.
Speaker 1: Well, but before we get to exploring how exactly TES
Speaker 1: conductor solves this problem, let's go to the basics of
Speaker 1: what a cable today looks like. Most people think it's
Speaker 1: going to be copper that carries electricity, but you said
Speaker 1: it's aluminum. Now I'm holding a piece of what a
Speaker 1: TS conductor wire would look like, and it's multiple layers
Speaker 1: of aluminum. And they're also not round, not all of them,
Speaker 1: some of them are flat. So why do we have
Speaker 1: this kind of structure today and why is it not copper?
Speaker 2: That's an excellent question. Copper is simply too expensive and
Speaker 2: too heavy. When you compare copper with aluminium, copper is
Speaker 2: three times the weight of aluminum, and the cost of
Speaker 2: copper on a per pound basis is three times the
Speaker 2: cost of aluminum. So you are looking at copper versus aluminum,
Speaker 2: it's a nine x cost and for a connectivity that
Speaker 2: is less than two x, So it's a lousy trade
Speaker 2: off in terms of using copper for overhead lines. In
Speaker 2: terms of traditional conductor, why we use normally round aluminum
Speaker 2: strand and steer being round as well steer wires In
Speaker 2: the conventional conductor simply round is easier to make, but
Speaker 2: you also leave a lot of space in between these
Speaker 2: round strand because there are a lot of gaps in there,
Speaker 2: and that is a poor usage of the conductor space.
Speaker 2: In the TS configuration, we use trapsort or wire, and
Speaker 2: the trap wire gives you a much greater packing density.
Speaker 2: We can achieve easily in ninety three percent packing or
Speaker 2: more around they're probably by seventy three percent, So you're
Speaker 2: able to integrate more aluminum with the trap wire. So
Speaker 2: it's a better design, a better way to build a conductor.
Speaker 1: Now, when I heard about your company first, and you
Speaker 1: are in the business of reconductoring, you're in the business
Speaker 1: of making cables that can carry two or three times
Speaker 1: as much electricity as cables today do. When I first
Speaker 1: heard about it, I was surprised that that is something
Speaker 1: that can be done. You know, I understand you can
Speaker 1: get some increase in conductance, but two times three times
Speaker 1: is that surprise? Normal? Or is this an industry secret
Speaker 1: that just never got out of the industry.
Speaker 2: Think twice the capacity. You have other technologies who actually
Speaker 2: could achieve it. The challenge is can you do it
Speaker 2: without retrofitting the structures. That's important. What's unique about TS
Speaker 2: technology is it's actually reflected in the name T and S.
Speaker 2: The T stands for technology. It is really about material
Speaker 2: science and the technology. We simply integrate the best material
Speaker 2: science had to offer today in building conductor, not over
Speaker 2: one hundred years ago, what was available and what we
Speaker 2: have in TS. We use the most conductive type of aluminum.
Speaker 2: We also use carbon fiber composite as a strength number.
Speaker 2: It is the lightest way possible or strongest core material possible,
Speaker 2: yet at the same time, it has no summer expansion.
Speaker 2: That's what allows this conductor to, for example, run at
Speaker 2: high temperature without the sagging issue. Why because the carbon
Speaker 2: core doesn't have a summer expansion, and it allows us
Speaker 2: to add far more aluminum to the conductor without the
Speaker 2: weight penalty. Why because when the steel is replaced with
Speaker 2: carbon core, we save about eighty percent of the weight
Speaker 2: from steel. So you're packing the better conducting aluminum and
Speaker 2: you are not creating the weight penalty. And lastly, a
Speaker 2: neared aluminum, which is more conductive. They do not have strengths. However,
Speaker 2: with carbon composite it is twice the strength of steel.
Speaker 2: You actually end up with a conductor that is stronger,
Speaker 2: even though the aluminum is less strong compared to other
Speaker 2: aluminum options.
Speaker 1: Now you're going to do two things in replacing old wires.
Speaker 1: You're going to increase the density of the aluminum wire.
Speaker 1: You're going to change the type of aluminum that is
Speaker 1: used so that it can carry more power. And then
Speaker 1: the most important thing is that you're replacing the core,
Speaker 1: the thing that holds all of this together, from steel
Speaker 1: to carbon fiber. All of that sounds fun and clearly,
Speaker 1: if you can make this work, all the great people
Speaker 1: would want you to provide these cables. At what stage
Speaker 1: are you at deploying this technology at a commercial scale.
Speaker 2: We have been doing volume manufacturing of TS conductors and
Speaker 2: we've been doing commercial deployment since twenty twenty one. Our
Speaker 2: first commercial deployment here in US is with Montana Dakota
Speaker 2: Utility early twenty twenty one. It's a two hundred and
Speaker 2: thirty kV line. We were able to save the utility
Speaker 2: about forty percent in total project apex. And since that time,
Speaker 2: we have also been working with utilities on new transmission
Speaker 2: lines because we're able to enable fewer and shorter structures
Speaker 2: building new lines as long as we're included in the
Speaker 2: d design phase so that you can fully leverage what
Speaker 2: TS can offer.
Speaker 1: And so you've been deploying since twenty twenty one. What's
Speaker 1: the total number of miles of cables that you have
Speaker 1: deployed so far?
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're in the thousands in terms of kilometers or miles.
Speaker 2: And we have been very blessed with utility support, but
Speaker 2: not all utilities are anxious to jump on new technologies.
Speaker 2: And when you look at US utilities, it is a
Speaker 2: target rich environment. You got more than one hundred you
Speaker 2: must own utilities. There are thousands of municipal utility and
Speaker 2: co ops. So there are plenty of utility who are nimble,
Speaker 2: who are proactive, and we have been blessed with utilities
Speaker 2: that are more progressive.
Speaker 1: But there's a start that I recently saw and it
Speaker 1: really jumped out at me because it said that the
Speaker 1: world will need to nearly double its electric grid to
Speaker 1: one hundred and eleven million kilometers. That's a distance equal
Speaker 1: to almost three quarters of the way to the sun.
Speaker 1: So we're talking about all this grid groundwork that has
Speaker 1: been laid since eighteen eighty, one hundred and forty years ago,
Speaker 1: and now all of that needs to be doubled in
Speaker 1: the next twenty five years. When did you realize that
Speaker 1: the grid challenge is something you wanted to work on?
Speaker 2: One, it is the opportunity to make a difference for
Speaker 2: humanity for the world, especially when you talk about climate change,
Speaker 2: energy transition. This is the existential threat for humanity, and
Speaker 2: it is also about preserving the environment for future generations.
Speaker 2: So it's a worthy effort. We have been very blessed
Speaker 2: with a great technology, perfect timing as well, and along
Speaker 2: the way we really were blessed with investors who share
Speaker 2: our perspective. By the way, we're a public andfit corporation
Speaker 2: in the US, and our public benefit focus is sustainable
Speaker 2: development in greenhouse gas emission reduction. We take that very seriously.
Speaker 1: Now, the powerlines that are currently in use, the ones
Speaker 1: that have these round cables, are designs that date back
Speaker 1: to the nineteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds, and they are
Speaker 1: definitely due for an upgrade. But why did it take
Speaker 1: so long for somebody like a TS conductor to come
Speaker 1: in and think of a new design. It just baffles
Speaker 1: my mind that we did not think of this efficiency
Speaker 1: gain just in packing design, if not in carbon fiber
Speaker 1: material until now.
Speaker 2: That's a great question. I think we have to recognize
Speaker 2: power grade utility companies. They are monopoly by design. They
Speaker 2: do not have to innovate or compete the way private
Speaker 2: industries though, and they are also risk avers. They have
Speaker 2: an intense focus on safe and reliability longevity of their
Speaker 2: transmission asset. And with all of that in mind, new
Speaker 2: technology adoption by the power grid is very slow and
Speaker 2: very challenging. Yes, only one hand. There are technologies that
Speaker 2: take advantage of the trapsoid or close packing even with
Speaker 2: traditional conductor. I've seen conductors offered by manufacturers to do that.
Speaker 2: But fundamentally progress in conductor is dependent on material science progress,
Speaker 2: and when you have better materials, you have better conductor options.
Speaker 2: But when you have better conductors, you also have to
Speaker 2: check the box for the utility in terms of their
Speaker 2: concern on practicality, safety, reliability, longevity easy to work with
Speaker 2: that is not easy. There are older generation advanced conducts.
Speaker 2: They have failed in that category. This is really where
Speaker 2: TS shines the name TS. The second part of the
Speaker 2: later s. It is about safety. It is about safety
Speaker 2: reliability design into the product that is done through this
Speaker 2: aluminum encapsulation. Protection for the carbon composite core that had
Speaker 2: been missing in the prior generation product.
Speaker 1: So you said, there are material science developments that you
Speaker 1: needed to be able to make the TS conductor cable
Speaker 1: that you sell today. What specifically were the material science developments.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when you look at the evolution of conductors, you know,
Speaker 2: we have steel. One hundred years ago, the steel wasn't
Speaker 2: as strong, and then later on the steel industry was
Speaker 2: able to offer higher strength steelers. So the sagging problem
Speaker 2: we steal. In, the corrosion problem we steal. You have
Speaker 2: to address that. So this is why posit core came in.
Speaker 2: That reduces the sommer expansion which is a sac and
Speaker 2: also reduces the weight, which allows you to build the
Speaker 2: towers lighter and shorter and span them further. So the
Speaker 2: composite came around initially with a glass carbon hybrid core
Speaker 2: to replace stel. It wasn't as ideal because you cannot
Speaker 2: use these conductors for heavy ice regions, for regions that
Speaker 2: has very long span or wind blowout. And when it
Speaker 2: came to TS, we did not have to use fiberglass
Speaker 2: because we can use our aluminium encapsulation as the corrosion
Speaker 2: barrier against galvanic corrosion. So we can get rid of fiberglass,
Speaker 2: allow more aluminum to be integraded into our conductor, and
Speaker 2: you have better properties from carbon composite. And then on
Speaker 2: top of that we have this protective layer of the
Speaker 2: aluminum encapsulation protection that's made the technology work. This is
Speaker 2: all evolution of material science.
Speaker 1: And you got me a sample of the core, the
Speaker 1: composite core. I'm holding a feet long black plastic looking thing.
Speaker 1: It is hard. I don't want to bend it. I
Speaker 1: feel like I might break it. Yeah, how can a
Speaker 1: cable which you look at a pylon and it looks
Speaker 1: like a slightly elongated U shape come from this which
Speaker 1: looks like a hard thing that might break if I
Speaker 1: try and sag it.
Speaker 2: That's an excellent question because that's also what made this
Speaker 2: technology pandable. When this concept originally were developed, the initial
Speaker 2: or thought was is this even practical? Because you have
Speaker 2: to loop the conductor in the spool and ship it
Speaker 2: to the job site. Right. They were able to wrap
Speaker 2: it in a real in the initial concept trial. That's
Speaker 2: what made this technology special because it is against conventional wisdom.
Speaker 2: This is why the inventor is not from the conductor industry,
Speaker 2: because anybody who worked in the conductor industry like the
Speaker 2: connector to be flexible, and when it is stiff like that,
Speaker 2: it won't work. However, the composite core, especially with the
Speaker 2: aluminium encapsulation protection, you actually have more bendable. It takes
Speaker 2: more force, but it can be bend into a tighter radius.
Speaker 2: And that's why it is robust in the field. That
Speaker 2: you're not going to be breaking the composite when it
Speaker 2: is mishandled in the field. So if I try and
Speaker 2: bend it will break without protection. It might if the
Speaker 2: radius is too small, but if you have the aluminum
Speaker 2: encapsulation on one, you won't have enough strengths to bend
Speaker 2: it too. If you do bend it, it has that
Speaker 2: ability to accommodate the bendings better than the unprotected composite core.
Speaker 1: Now, you talked about thousands of miles in the US,
Speaker 1: but I'm assuming reconductoring has to be done all around
Speaker 1: the world. The grid has been quite an old grid,
Speaker 1: especially in developed countries. So are you getting interested in
Speaker 1: reconductoring in other parts of the world. Yes.
Speaker 2: I was actually in Poland on Monday and they are
Speaker 2: very interested in our technology. I'm flying to Romania in
Speaker 2: n in Turkey. So we are seeing TS getting recognized
Speaker 2: and being made aware to international utilities as well. That's
Speaker 2: been one of our challenges because we're a US based company.
Speaker 2: We're being focused on execution in supporting US customers, so
Speaker 2: we're not as well known and we oftentimes get lumped
Speaker 2: with the older generation advanced conductor or the problems that
Speaker 2: were associated with the older generation product. They were automatically
Speaker 2: assumed on TS, and we have to do a better
Speaker 2: job articulating why TS is different. How we solve the
Speaker 2: problem for the utilities, including technical performance, affordability as well
Speaker 2: as practicality in terms of workmanship in the field, and
Speaker 2: is there any longevity, reliability, safety concerns. We check all
Speaker 2: of those boxes.
Speaker 1: Are there incidents of previous generation of advanced conductors that
Speaker 1: caused utilities to become much more conservative?
Speaker 2: Yes, that have been the case. That's why there is
Speaker 2: the bad perception in terms of older generation advanced conductor,
Speaker 2: they're delicate, they're difficult to work with, and they're easy
Speaker 2: to break.
Speaker 1: Can you give me examples.
Speaker 2: I'd rather refrain from that because these are, you know,
Speaker 2: in a way, our competition, and sometimes it's better kind
Speaker 2: of live it out because I don't want to ban
Speaker 2: mouse our supposedly competitions.
Speaker 1: Jason was hesitant to trash his competitors, no surprise, but
Speaker 1: it kind of also makes sense because in this industry
Speaker 1: there's a lot on the line, no pun intended. In July,
Speaker 1: ts Conductor raised sixty million dollars. These days, raising that
Speaker 1: kind of money is a big deal. Jason did tell
Speaker 1: me about some of the failed scientific efforts others have tried,
Speaker 1: and it all gets a bit technical, but it comes
Speaker 1: down to the challenge of making a core cable that
Speaker 1: can withstand the stress the wire as a whole is
Speaker 1: put under. Some have tried making the composite core out
Speaker 1: of ceramics or glass, but neither have proven to be
Speaker 1: durable enough. After the break, Jason and I talk about
Speaker 1: the market realities of reconductoring. And by the way, if
Speaker 1: you've been enjoying this episode, please take a moment to
Speaker 1: rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
Speaker 1: It helps other listeners find the show. One reason why
Speaker 1: reconductoring is also crucial is because getting planning and permitting
Speaker 1: for new transmission lines is just becoming harder and harder
Speaker 1: almost everywhere, especially in developed countries in America and Europe.
Speaker 1: And so if you're able to replace the same cables
Speaker 1: of an existing transmission line with higher capacity, you can
Speaker 1: avoid building a new transmission line to some extent. Is
Speaker 1: that what is driving the demand right now for reconductoring
Speaker 1: or are there other reasons that are driving the demand.
Speaker 2: That is the exact reason, because building new lines is
Speaker 2: getting more and more difficult, as you stated, in terms
Speaker 2: of permitting reconductoring oftentimes you can do it without much
Speaker 2: of a permitting effort, especially when you can leave the
Speaker 2: towers alone. That you are just swapping the conductors and
Speaker 2: you can get two x or three x capacity with
Speaker 2: for example, or TS conductor. And that is also the fastest,
Speaker 2: the cheapest way of getting more capacity to our power grid.
Speaker 2: So there is that economics in there as well. Think
Speaker 2: about it in the US, for example, if you build
Speaker 2: new lines, the cost of conductor they're very low. You know,
Speaker 2: one percent two percent, three percent is quite typical. On
Speaker 2: the structural related cost, they could be as much as
Speaker 2: thirty percent. So when you do reconductoring, you are only
Speaker 2: working with that one two three percent of the Now
Speaker 2: you are suddenly doubling or tripling the outcome the capacity.
Speaker 2: There's just no better way of getting a better return
Speaker 2: compared to reconductoring. So that is the way to go.
Speaker 1: So utilities are now knocking on your door, they want
Speaker 1: these cables. How are you manufacturing them? And how are
Speaker 1: you scaling up manufacturing?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have existing manufacturer operation in California. We are
Speaker 2: already expanding and we just leased another building and we're
Speaker 2: adding additional machines. We are also looking at building a
Speaker 2: mega facility in the East Coast. We'll make a decision
Speaker 2: in about a month in terms of where we will
Speaker 2: do the mega facility. Even that is probably just a
Speaker 2: small down payment in terms of the conductor manufacturing capacity
Speaker 2: that we need, just even for us long term.
Speaker 1: And how big are these facilities, like how many miles
Speaker 1: of cable do they? Pretty annual basis.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in California we can do three thousand myers of
Speaker 2: complete conductor and with two to three thousand miers of
Speaker 2: encapsuley core, which is the most essential element inside that
Speaker 2: we can use that partner with other companies that does
Speaker 2: conductors training for them to make the complete conductor. The
Speaker 2: East Coast expansion that we're looking at, we're looking at
Speaker 2: ten times capacity compared to our California operation.
Speaker 1: Now, very few people tell me they're building a manufacturing
Speaker 1: plant in America, where land is more expensive, labor is
Speaker 1: more expensive, permitting is harder. They typically go to Asia.
Speaker 2: How come you have, well, you have some other geopolitics involved.
Speaker 2: There's the own shore of manufacturing operations in the US,
Speaker 2: and even in the US, when you look at the
Speaker 2: power grade upgrade, the whole industry is handicapped. White supply
Speaker 2: chain constraint. Transformer could take four years, switch gears as
Speaker 2: much time as well. Conductors the lead time is fifty
Speaker 2: to seventy weeks. And the better way of delivering conductor
Speaker 2: is they are made in America so that they're not
Speaker 2: dependent on foreign country. When there's something, you know, bad happens,
Speaker 2: you still have a secure supply chain in place.
Speaker 1: But does that not make your product more expensive? Yes?
Speaker 2: No, no, you know the product itself, it has a
Speaker 2: modest premium over conventional conductor. However, when you look at
Speaker 2: it from project cost spases, we offer better value than
Speaker 2: all the other options, whether you do new lines or reconductoring.
Speaker 2: So it is a situation that we can manage. And
Speaker 2: also utilities in the US, some of them are requiring
Speaker 2: made in America. That made it essential that we make
Speaker 2: the conductors in the.
Speaker 1: But with demand coming from Europe, are you thinking of
Speaker 1: building a plant in Europe too?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, because we need climate change solutions around the globe.
Speaker 2: You know you cannot just solve the problem in America
Speaker 2: or Western Europe. You also have to address needs in
Speaker 2: Africa Asia as well, So we will be building additional
Speaker 2: manufacturing facilities around the world to support energy transition.
Speaker 1: And what could make you not succeed well, I.
Speaker 2: Think there are a couple of things. One is execution.
Speaker 2: When you are managing a growth company, you have to
Speaker 2: have the talent in place to execute your growth strategy.
Speaker 2: I think, more than anything else, having the right people
Speaker 2: in place to execute is very important. The other part
Speaker 2: is we always have to keep our customer in mind.
Speaker 2: These are customers that they rely on you. We need
Speaker 2: to make sure we meet their expectation in product quality product,
Speaker 2: delivery time, and be able to continue to offer better
Speaker 2: value for them. Thank or the other options somewhere I
Speaker 2: war to thank you Jason, Thank you very much, really
Speaker 2: appreciate the opportunity to be here.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Zero. If you liked this episode,
Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate or review the show
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a
Speaker 1: friend or with someone who likes trapezoids. If you haven't
Speaker 1: already listened to the other episodes in the Grid series,
Speaker 1: I would urge you to check out the previous two
Speaker 1: episodes where we talked to Keith Anderson, CEO of Scottish
Speaker 1: Power and to Sunjit Sanghera of the National Grid. And
Speaker 1: now for the sound of the week. This one was
Speaker 1: suggested by Sunjee, who knows this sound all too well.
Speaker 1: That's the sound of an emergency circuit breaker at a substation.
Speaker 1: The voltages are so high that even when the metal
Speaker 1: connection is broken, electricity uses air itself as a way
Speaker 1: to complete the circuit, causing all that crackling sound. Fortunately,
Speaker 1: it only lasts for a little while, and these breakers
Speaker 1: are crucial for delivering power safely. If you have a
Speaker 1: suggestion for a Sound of the week, or you have
Speaker 1: comments or questions, get in touch at Zero pod at
Speaker 1: bloomberg dot net. Zero's producer is Mighty le Rau. Bloomberg's
Speaker 1: Head of Podcast is Sage Bowman and Head of Talk
Speaker 1: is Brendan Nuna. Our theme music is composed by Wonderly.
Speaker 1: Thanks to the Breakthrough Andage team for the recording space
Speaker 1: for this episode, and special thanks to Kira Bindram and
Speaker 1: Matthew Griffin. I am Akshadrati backed Soon