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Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I am Akshatrati. This week breakthroughs on

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Speaker 1: the Grid. If you're caught up on the last few

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Speaker 1: episodes of Zero, we've been talking about the grid, how

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Speaker 1: it so magically brings electricity into our homes, and what

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Speaker 1: is going to take to update and upgrade the grid

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Speaker 1: as we electrify more and more of our world. A

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Speaker 1: good amount of the grid is visible. You've seen miles

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Speaker 1: and miles of cables that bring you electricity, more than

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Speaker 1: thirty million miles actually, but there's a lot that you

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Speaker 1: don't see. You don't see or hear about the people

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Speaker 1: whose labor and ideas make the grid better. So in

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Speaker 1: our third episode and for now final episode of the

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Speaker 1: Grid series, we look at one such innovation. What if

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Speaker 1: instead of rolling out new cables, we gave the old

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Speaker 1: ones a high tech makeover. I don't know if there's

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Speaker 1: it's I'm sure I'm missing something. It just it makes

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Speaker 1: no sense to me that this is not bendable.

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Speaker 2: If you have a sharp age here, yeah, it's gonna snap. Yes,

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Speaker 2: that had been the problem of the order generation product. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: When you have the aluminum protectingly carbon core, yeah, now

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Speaker 2: you can bend it. You will yield. But you were nasnat.

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Speaker 1: That's Jason Hung. He has a PhD in material science,

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Speaker 1: and he's used that expertise to launch a startup focused

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Speaker 1: on equipping the grid with a new generation of extremely

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Speaker 1: durable cables. Because we'll talk a lot about cables in

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Speaker 1: this episode, let me try to tell you a little

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Speaker 1: bit more. First, the cables that are deployed for high

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Speaker 1: voltage transmission, essentially those hanging between pylons, look nothing like

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Speaker 1: a normal wire. It's not just a bigger version of

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Speaker 1: a cylindrical copper wire covered in insulation, the kind you

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Speaker 1: use for a phone charger. Instead, it's a steel cable

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Speaker 1: that provides strength to a bunch of insulated aluminum wires

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Speaker 1: that are wound around the steel cable, all of which

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Speaker 1: is then wrapped in insulation. TS Conductor's main innovation has

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Speaker 1: been replacing the steel cable core with a carbon fiber

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Speaker 1: core and making circular aluminum cables be trapezoidal in shape.

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Speaker 1: That means they can use the space more efficiently, and

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Speaker 1: Monk tells me these new cables can carry as much

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Speaker 1: as three times more electricity, a game changer and maybe

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Speaker 1: the first of many big innovations on the grid that

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Speaker 1: will cumulatively have huge impacts. I sat down with Jason

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Speaker 1: at the Breakthrough Energy Summit in London in June to

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Speaker 1: find out more. Jason, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Thanks for the opportunity to be here.

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Speaker 1: Now, there's a term that I know you're very familiar with,

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Speaker 1: but which listeners may or may not be familiar with. Reconductoring.

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Speaker 1: It refers to replacing old transmission lines with sturdy, new

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Speaker 1: high capacity conductors. And one reason is to make the

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Speaker 1: lines stronger, strong enough to be able to withstand heavy winds,

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Speaker 1: durable enough to have very little sagging, because sagging lines

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Speaker 1: can spark wildfires. But there's another reason, which has to

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Speaker 1: do with the energy transition. Can you explain what reconductoring is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Reconductoring typically refers to the need to use a

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Speaker 2: different conductor than the conductor that's used. This involved two situations.

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Speaker 2: One is you don't have to retrofit any struck. The

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Speaker 2: other one you may have to retrofit the structure, make

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Speaker 2: them taller because there's a lot more sag, or the

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Speaker 2: cross arms of the tower had to be strengthened because

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Speaker 2: you're using a behavior conductor and I should add a

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Speaker 2: comment about the reconductoring. Why utility does reconductoring. It is

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Speaker 2: actually principally driven by capacity. They have capacity constrain, a bottleneck,

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Speaker 2: for example, so they are looking at a higher capacity

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Speaker 2: conductor to the bottomneck the grid.

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Speaker 1: Well, but before we get to exploring how exactly TES

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Speaker 1: conductor solves this problem, let's go to the basics of

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Speaker 1: what a cable today looks like. Most people think it's

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Speaker 1: going to be copper that carries electricity, but you said

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Speaker 1: it's aluminum. Now I'm holding a piece of what a

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Speaker 1: TS conductor wire would look like, and it's multiple layers

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Speaker 1: of aluminum. And they're also not round, not all of them,

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Speaker 1: some of them are flat. So why do we have

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Speaker 1: this kind of structure today and why is it not copper?

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Speaker 2: That's an excellent question. Copper is simply too expensive and

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Speaker 2: too heavy. When you compare copper with aluminium, copper is

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Speaker 2: three times the weight of aluminum, and the cost of

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Speaker 2: copper on a per pound basis is three times the

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Speaker 2: cost of aluminum. So you are looking at copper versus aluminum,

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Speaker 2: it's a nine x cost and for a connectivity that

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Speaker 2: is less than two x, So it's a lousy trade

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Speaker 2: off in terms of using copper for overhead lines. In

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Speaker 2: terms of traditional conductor, why we use normally round aluminum

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Speaker 2: strand and steer being round as well steer wires In

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Speaker 2: the conventional conductor simply round is easier to make, but

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Speaker 2: you also leave a lot of space in between these

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Speaker 2: round strand because there are a lot of gaps in there,

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Speaker 2: and that is a poor usage of the conductor space.

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Speaker 2: In the TS configuration, we use trapsort or wire, and

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Speaker 2: the trap wire gives you a much greater packing density.

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Speaker 2: We can achieve easily in ninety three percent packing or

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Speaker 2: more around they're probably by seventy three percent, So you're

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Speaker 2: able to integrate more aluminum with the trap wire. So

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Speaker 2: it's a better design, a better way to build a conductor.

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Speaker 1: Now, when I heard about your company first, and you

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Speaker 1: are in the business of reconductoring, you're in the business

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Speaker 1: of making cables that can carry two or three times

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Speaker 1: as much electricity as cables today do. When I first

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Speaker 1: heard about it, I was surprised that that is something

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Speaker 1: that can be done. You know, I understand you can

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Speaker 1: get some increase in conductance, but two times three times

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Speaker 1: is that surprise? Normal? Or is this an industry secret

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Speaker 1: that just never got out of the industry.

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Speaker 2: Think twice the capacity. You have other technologies who actually

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Speaker 2: could achieve it. The challenge is can you do it

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Speaker 2: without retrofitting the structures. That's important. What's unique about TS

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Speaker 2: technology is it's actually reflected in the name T and S.

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Speaker 2: The T stands for technology. It is really about material

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Speaker 2: science and the technology. We simply integrate the best material

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Speaker 2: science had to offer today in building conductor, not over

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Speaker 2: one hundred years ago, what was available and what we

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Speaker 2: have in TS. We use the most conductive type of aluminum.

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Speaker 2: We also use carbon fiber composite as a strength number.

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Speaker 2: It is the lightest way possible or strongest core material possible,

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Speaker 2: yet at the same time, it has no summer expansion.

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Speaker 2: That's what allows this conductor to, for example, run at

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Speaker 2: high temperature without the sagging issue. Why because the carbon

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Speaker 2: core doesn't have a summer expansion, and it allows us

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Speaker 2: to add far more aluminum to the conductor without the

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Speaker 2: weight penalty. Why because when the steel is replaced with

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Speaker 2: carbon core, we save about eighty percent of the weight

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Speaker 2: from steel. So you're packing the better conducting aluminum and

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Speaker 2: you are not creating the weight penalty. And lastly, a

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Speaker 2: neared aluminum, which is more conductive. They do not have strengths. However,

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Speaker 2: with carbon composite it is twice the strength of steel.

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Speaker 2: You actually end up with a conductor that is stronger,

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Speaker 2: even though the aluminum is less strong compared to other

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Speaker 2: aluminum options.

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Speaker 1: Now you're going to do two things in replacing old wires.

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Speaker 1: You're going to increase the density of the aluminum wire.

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Speaker 1: You're going to change the type of aluminum that is

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Speaker 1: used so that it can carry more power. And then

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Speaker 1: the most important thing is that you're replacing the core,

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Speaker 1: the thing that holds all of this together, from steel

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Speaker 1: to carbon fiber. All of that sounds fun and clearly,

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Speaker 1: if you can make this work, all the great people

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Speaker 1: would want you to provide these cables. At what stage

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Speaker 1: are you at deploying this technology at a commercial scale.

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Speaker 2: We have been doing volume manufacturing of TS conductors and

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Speaker 2: we've been doing commercial deployment since twenty twenty one. Our

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Speaker 2: first commercial deployment here in US is with Montana Dakota

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Speaker 2: Utility early twenty twenty one. It's a two hundred and

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Speaker 2: thirty kV line. We were able to save the utility

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Speaker 2: about forty percent in total project apex. And since that time,

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Speaker 2: we have also been working with utilities on new transmission

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Speaker 2: lines because we're able to enable fewer and shorter structures

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Speaker 2: building new lines as long as we're included in the

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Speaker 2: d design phase so that you can fully leverage what

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Speaker 2: TS can offer.

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Speaker 1: And so you've been deploying since twenty twenty one. What's

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Speaker 1: the total number of miles of cables that you have

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Speaker 1: deployed so far?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're in the thousands in terms of kilometers or miles.

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Speaker 2: And we have been very blessed with utility support, but

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Speaker 2: not all utilities are anxious to jump on new technologies.

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Speaker 2: And when you look at US utilities, it is a

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Speaker 2: target rich environment. You got more than one hundred you

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Speaker 2: must own utilities. There are thousands of municipal utility and

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Speaker 2: co ops. So there are plenty of utility who are nimble,

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Speaker 2: who are proactive, and we have been blessed with utilities

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Speaker 2: that are more progressive.

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Speaker 1: But there's a start that I recently saw and it

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Speaker 1: really jumped out at me because it said that the

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Speaker 1: world will need to nearly double its electric grid to

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Speaker 1: one hundred and eleven million kilometers. That's a distance equal

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Speaker 1: to almost three quarters of the way to the sun.

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Speaker 1: So we're talking about all this grid groundwork that has

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Speaker 1: been laid since eighteen eighty, one hundred and forty years ago,

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Speaker 1: and now all of that needs to be doubled in

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Speaker 1: the next twenty five years. When did you realize that

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Speaker 1: the grid challenge is something you wanted to work on?

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Speaker 2: One, it is the opportunity to make a difference for

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Speaker 2: humanity for the world, especially when you talk about climate change,

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Speaker 2: energy transition. This is the existential threat for humanity, and

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Speaker 2: it is also about preserving the environment for future generations.

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Speaker 2: So it's a worthy effort. We have been very blessed

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Speaker 2: with a great technology, perfect timing as well, and along

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Speaker 2: the way we really were blessed with investors who share

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Speaker 2: our perspective. By the way, we're a public andfit corporation

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Speaker 2: in the US, and our public benefit focus is sustainable

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Speaker 2: development in greenhouse gas emission reduction. We take that very seriously.

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Speaker 1: Now, the powerlines that are currently in use, the ones

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Speaker 1: that have these round cables, are designs that date back

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Speaker 1: to the nineteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds, and they are

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Speaker 1: definitely due for an upgrade. But why did it take

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Speaker 1: so long for somebody like a TS conductor to come

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Speaker 1: in and think of a new design. It just baffles

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Speaker 1: my mind that we did not think of this efficiency

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Speaker 1: gain just in packing design, if not in carbon fiber

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Speaker 1: material until now.

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Speaker 2: That's a great question. I think we have to recognize

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Speaker 2: power grade utility companies. They are monopoly by design. They

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Speaker 2: do not have to innovate or compete the way private

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Speaker 2: industries though, and they are also risk avers. They have

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Speaker 2: an intense focus on safe and reliability longevity of their

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Speaker 2: transmission asset. And with all of that in mind, new

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Speaker 2: technology adoption by the power grid is very slow and

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Speaker 2: very challenging. Yes, only one hand. There are technologies that

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Speaker 2: take advantage of the trapsoid or close packing even with

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Speaker 2: traditional conductor. I've seen conductors offered by manufacturers to do that.

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Speaker 2: But fundamentally progress in conductor is dependent on material science progress,

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Speaker 2: and when you have better materials, you have better conductor options.

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Speaker 2: But when you have better conductors, you also have to

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Speaker 2: check the box for the utility in terms of their

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Speaker 2: concern on practicality, safety, reliability, longevity easy to work with

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Speaker 2: that is not easy. There are older generation advanced conducts.

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Speaker 2: They have failed in that category. This is really where

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Speaker 2: TS shines the name TS. The second part of the

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Speaker 2: later s. It is about safety. It is about safety

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Speaker 2: reliability design into the product that is done through this

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Speaker 2: aluminum encapsulation. Protection for the carbon composite core that had

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Speaker 2: been missing in the prior generation product.

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Speaker 1: So you said, there are material science developments that you

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Speaker 1: needed to be able to make the TS conductor cable

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Speaker 1: that you sell today. What specifically were the material science developments.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when you look at the evolution of conductors, you know,

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Speaker 2: we have steel. One hundred years ago, the steel wasn't

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Speaker 2: as strong, and then later on the steel industry was

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Speaker 2: able to offer higher strength steelers. So the sagging problem

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Speaker 2: we steal. In, the corrosion problem we steal. You have

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Speaker 2: to address that. So this is why posit core came in.

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Speaker 2: That reduces the sommer expansion which is a sac and

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Speaker 2: also reduces the weight, which allows you to build the

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Speaker 2: towers lighter and shorter and span them further. So the

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Speaker 2: composite came around initially with a glass carbon hybrid core

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Speaker 2: to replace stel. It wasn't as ideal because you cannot

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Speaker 2: use these conductors for heavy ice regions, for regions that

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Speaker 2: has very long span or wind blowout. And when it

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Speaker 2: came to TS, we did not have to use fiberglass

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Speaker 2: because we can use our aluminium encapsulation as the corrosion

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Speaker 2: barrier against galvanic corrosion. So we can get rid of fiberglass,

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Speaker 2: allow more aluminum to be integraded into our conductor, and

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Speaker 2: you have better properties from carbon composite. And then on

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Speaker 2: top of that we have this protective layer of the

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Speaker 2: aluminum encapsulation protection that's made the technology work. This is

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Speaker 2: all evolution of material science.

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Speaker 1: And you got me a sample of the core, the

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Speaker 1: composite core. I'm holding a feet long black plastic looking thing.

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Speaker 1: It is hard. I don't want to bend it. I

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Speaker 1: feel like I might break it. Yeah, how can a

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Speaker 1: cable which you look at a pylon and it looks

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Speaker 1: like a slightly elongated U shape come from this which

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Speaker 1: looks like a hard thing that might break if I

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Speaker 1: try and sag it.

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Speaker 2: That's an excellent question because that's also what made this

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Speaker 2: technology pandable. When this concept originally were developed, the initial

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Speaker 2: or thought was is this even practical? Because you have

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Speaker 2: to loop the conductor in the spool and ship it

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Speaker 2: to the job site. Right. They were able to wrap

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Speaker 2: it in a real in the initial concept trial. That's

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Speaker 2: what made this technology special because it is against conventional wisdom.

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Speaker 2: This is why the inventor is not from the conductor industry,

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Speaker 2: because anybody who worked in the conductor industry like the

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Speaker 2: connector to be flexible, and when it is stiff like that,

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Speaker 2: it won't work. However, the composite core, especially with the

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Speaker 2: aluminium encapsulation protection, you actually have more bendable. It takes

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Speaker 2: more force, but it can be bend into a tighter radius.

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Speaker 2: And that's why it is robust in the field. That

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Speaker 2: you're not going to be breaking the composite when it

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Speaker 2: is mishandled in the field. So if I try and

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Speaker 2: bend it will break without protection. It might if the

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Speaker 2: radius is too small, but if you have the aluminum

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Speaker 2: encapsulation on one, you won't have enough strengths to bend

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Speaker 2: it too. If you do bend it, it has that

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Speaker 2: ability to accommodate the bendings better than the unprotected composite core.

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Speaker 1: Now, you talked about thousands of miles in the US,

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Speaker 1: but I'm assuming reconductoring has to be done all around

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Speaker 1: the world. The grid has been quite an old grid,

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Speaker 1: especially in developed countries. So are you getting interested in

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Speaker 1: reconductoring in other parts of the world. Yes.

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Speaker 2: I was actually in Poland on Monday and they are

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Speaker 2: very interested in our technology. I'm flying to Romania in

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Speaker 2: n in Turkey. So we are seeing TS getting recognized

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Speaker 2: and being made aware to international utilities as well. That's

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Speaker 2: been one of our challenges because we're a US based company.

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Speaker 2: We're being focused on execution in supporting US customers, so

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Speaker 2: we're not as well known and we oftentimes get lumped

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Speaker 2: with the older generation advanced conductor or the problems that

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Speaker 2: were associated with the older generation product. They were automatically

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Speaker 2: assumed on TS, and we have to do a better

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Speaker 2: job articulating why TS is different. How we solve the

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Speaker 2: problem for the utilities, including technical performance, affordability as well

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Speaker 2: as practicality in terms of workmanship in the field, and

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Speaker 2: is there any longevity, reliability, safety concerns. We check all

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Speaker 2: of those boxes.

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Speaker 1: Are there incidents of previous generation of advanced conductors that

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Speaker 1: caused utilities to become much more conservative?

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Speaker 2: Yes, that have been the case. That's why there is

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Speaker 2: the bad perception in terms of older generation advanced conductor,

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Speaker 2: they're delicate, they're difficult to work with, and they're easy

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Speaker 2: to break.

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Speaker 1: Can you give me examples.

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Speaker 2: I'd rather refrain from that because these are, you know,

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Speaker 2: in a way, our competition, and sometimes it's better kind

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Speaker 2: of live it out because I don't want to ban

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Speaker 2: mouse our supposedly competitions.

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Speaker 1: Jason was hesitant to trash his competitors, no surprise, but

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Speaker 1: it kind of also makes sense because in this industry

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Speaker 1: there's a lot on the line, no pun intended. In July,

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Speaker 1: ts Conductor raised sixty million dollars. These days, raising that

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Speaker 1: kind of money is a big deal. Jason did tell

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Speaker 1: me about some of the failed scientific efforts others have tried,

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Speaker 1: and it all gets a bit technical, but it comes

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Speaker 1: down to the challenge of making a core cable that

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Speaker 1: can withstand the stress the wire as a whole is

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Speaker 1: put under. Some have tried making the composite core out

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Speaker 1: of ceramics or glass, but neither have proven to be

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Speaker 1: durable enough. After the break, Jason and I talk about

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Speaker 1: the market realities of reconductoring. And by the way, if

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Speaker 1: you've been enjoying this episode, please take a moment to

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Speaker 1: rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

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Speaker 1: It helps other listeners find the show. One reason why

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Speaker 1: reconductoring is also crucial is because getting planning and permitting

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Speaker 1: for new transmission lines is just becoming harder and harder

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Speaker 1: almost everywhere, especially in developed countries in America and Europe.

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Speaker 1: And so if you're able to replace the same cables

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Speaker 1: of an existing transmission line with higher capacity, you can

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Speaker 1: avoid building a new transmission line to some extent. Is

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Speaker 1: that what is driving the demand right now for reconductoring

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Speaker 1: or are there other reasons that are driving the demand.

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Speaker 2: That is the exact reason, because building new lines is

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Speaker 2: getting more and more difficult, as you stated, in terms

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Speaker 2: of permitting reconductoring oftentimes you can do it without much

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Speaker 2: of a permitting effort, especially when you can leave the

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Speaker 2: towers alone. That you are just swapping the conductors and

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Speaker 2: you can get two x or three x capacity with

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Speaker 2: for example, or TS conductor. And that is also the fastest,

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Speaker 2: the cheapest way of getting more capacity to our power grid.

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Speaker 2: So there is that economics in there as well. Think

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Speaker 2: about it in the US, for example, if you build

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Speaker 2: new lines, the cost of conductor they're very low. You know,

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Speaker 2: one percent two percent, three percent is quite typical. On

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Speaker 2: the structural related cost, they could be as much as

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Speaker 2: thirty percent. So when you do reconductoring, you are only

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Speaker 2: working with that one two three percent of the Now

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Speaker 2: you are suddenly doubling or tripling the outcome the capacity.

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Speaker 2: There's just no better way of getting a better return

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Speaker 2: compared to reconductoring. So that is the way to go.

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Speaker 1: So utilities are now knocking on your door, they want

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Speaker 1: these cables. How are you manufacturing them? And how are

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Speaker 1: you scaling up manufacturing?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we have existing manufacturer operation in California. We are

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Speaker 2: already expanding and we just leased another building and we're

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Speaker 2: adding additional machines. We are also looking at building a

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Speaker 2: mega facility in the East Coast. We'll make a decision

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Speaker 2: in about a month in terms of where we will

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Speaker 2: do the mega facility. Even that is probably just a

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Speaker 2: small down payment in terms of the conductor manufacturing capacity

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Speaker 2: that we need, just even for us long term.

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Speaker 1: And how big are these facilities, like how many miles

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Speaker 1: of cable do they? Pretty annual basis.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in California we can do three thousand myers of

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Speaker 2: complete conductor and with two to three thousand miers of

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Speaker 2: encapsuley core, which is the most essential element inside that

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Speaker 2: we can use that partner with other companies that does

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Speaker 2: conductors training for them to make the complete conductor. The

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Speaker 2: East Coast expansion that we're looking at, we're looking at

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Speaker 2: ten times capacity compared to our California operation.

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Speaker 1: Now, very few people tell me they're building a manufacturing

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Speaker 1: plant in America, where land is more expensive, labor is

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Speaker 1: more expensive, permitting is harder. They typically go to Asia.

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Speaker 2: How come you have, well, you have some other geopolitics involved.

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Speaker 2: There's the own shore of manufacturing operations in the US,

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Speaker 2: and even in the US, when you look at the

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Speaker 2: power grade upgrade, the whole industry is handicapped. White supply

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Speaker 2: chain constraint. Transformer could take four years, switch gears as

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Speaker 2: much time as well. Conductors the lead time is fifty

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Speaker 2: to seventy weeks. And the better way of delivering conductor

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Speaker 2: is they are made in America so that they're not

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Speaker 2: dependent on foreign country. When there's something, you know, bad happens,

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Speaker 2: you still have a secure supply chain in place.

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Speaker 1: But does that not make your product more expensive? Yes?

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Speaker 2: No, no, you know the product itself, it has a

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Speaker 2: modest premium over conventional conductor. However, when you look at

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Speaker 2: it from project cost spases, we offer better value than

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Speaker 2: all the other options, whether you do new lines or reconductoring.

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Speaker 2: So it is a situation that we can manage. And

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Speaker 2: also utilities in the US, some of them are requiring

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Speaker 2: made in America. That made it essential that we make

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Speaker 2: the conductors in the.

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Speaker 1: But with demand coming from Europe, are you thinking of

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Speaker 1: building a plant in Europe too?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, because we need climate change solutions around the globe.

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Speaker 2: You know you cannot just solve the problem in America

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Speaker 2: or Western Europe. You also have to address needs in

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Speaker 2: Africa Asia as well, So we will be building additional

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Speaker 2: manufacturing facilities around the world to support energy transition.

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Speaker 1: And what could make you not succeed well, I.

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Speaker 2: Think there are a couple of things. One is execution.

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Speaker 2: When you are managing a growth company, you have to

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Speaker 2: have the talent in place to execute your growth strategy.

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Speaker 2: I think, more than anything else, having the right people

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Speaker 2: in place to execute is very important. The other part

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Speaker 2: is we always have to keep our customer in mind.

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Speaker 2: These are customers that they rely on you. We need

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Speaker 2: to make sure we meet their expectation in product quality product,

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Speaker 2: delivery time, and be able to continue to offer better

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Speaker 2: value for them. Thank or the other options somewhere I

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Speaker 2: war to thank you Jason, Thank you very much, really

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Speaker 2: appreciate the opportunity to be here.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Zero. If you liked this episode,

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00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate or review the show

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Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a

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Speaker 1: friend or with someone who likes trapezoids. If you haven't

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Speaker 1: already listened to the other episodes in the Grid series,

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00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: I would urge you to check out the previous two

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Speaker 1: episodes where we talked to Keith Anderson, CEO of Scottish

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Speaker 1: Power and to Sunjit Sanghera of the National Grid. And

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Speaker 1: now for the sound of the week. This one was

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Speaker 1: suggested by Sunjee, who knows this sound all too well.

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Speaker 1: That's the sound of an emergency circuit breaker at a substation.

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00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 1: The voltages are so high that even when the metal

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00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: connection is broken, electricity uses air itself as a way

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Speaker 1: to complete the circuit, causing all that crackling sound. Fortunately,

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Speaker 1: it only lasts for a little while, and these breakers

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Speaker 1: are crucial for delivering power safely. If you have a

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00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 1: suggestion for a Sound of the week, or you have

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00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: comments or questions, get in touch at Zero pod at

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Speaker 1: bloomberg dot net. Zero's producer is Mighty le Rau. Bloomberg's

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00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: Head of Podcast is Sage Bowman and Head of Talk

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00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: is Brendan Nuna. Our theme music is composed by Wonderly.

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Speaker 1: Thanks to the Breakthrough Andage team for the recording space

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Speaker 1: for this episode, and special thanks to Kira Bindram and

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Speaker 1: Matthew Griffin. I am Akshadrati backed Soon