WEBVTT - The Insidious Abuse of Stalking 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:04.560 Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from how Stuff Works 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:13.800 dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:16.760 and there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry and 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:21.759 this is Stuff you should Know. Jerry creepily in the background, right, 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:26.239 she just has stopped working in this staring at us 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:28.880 right now, that's right, which is not at all funny. No, 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:32.680 it's not. It's like we can get around about this stuff, 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.599 but nothing about it. It's funny. No, it's really like, 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:37.360 but we just try to make light of things that 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:40.080 are uncomfortable. That's what we do. Yeah, we did one 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:44.040 on Coma's once, remember, that's right. That was hysterical question 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:47.320 with a laugh. Right. It was like Leslie Nielsen and 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:51.519 Priscilla Presley coming out from Platoon on Naked Gun. You remember, 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:55.120 just laughing, all right, watch Naked Gun two and a half. 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:59.440 The other days hold up, holds up and then some Yeah, 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:04.040 especially once you've met the director personally, right, that's right. Man, 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:08.560 we met him a thousand years ago, maybe maybe five 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:11.720 thousand years ago. It was a while. So, Chuck, we 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:14.880 have a good hundred and fifty pages on stalking here. 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:20.160 It's at um and you say, like, no, it's not funny. Absolutely, 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:23.080 it's not funny. And it's really tough to put yourself 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:27.399 in the situation of a person who's being stalked. But 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:30.039 there are there's a lot of quotes from people who 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:34.360 um compare it to what's a form of abuse. It 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:37.400 might not be physical, although if it frequently can turn 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:40.160 into something physical or violent. There's a lot of blurred 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:44.000 lines here. Um. But even if it never gets physical 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:46.039 at all, it is a form of abuse. It's a 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:52.640 form of psychological abuse, protracted torment wherein you the victim, 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:56.640 feel like your life has been infected. It affects every 0:01:56.680 --> 0:01:59.560 part of your life and you're constantly you feel like 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:03.520 you're certently being watched. And as one victim to put it, 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:06.720 like not in any sort of flattering way. Yeah, I 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:12.240 had the most minimal form of stalking happened to me 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:16.639 in college, and I cannot imagine what like a serious 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:20.120 stalking situation might feel like considering how that made me feel. 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:24.760 Really yeah, and not, you know, very minimal. Trust me, 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:26.639 I'm not saying like I know how it feels, man, 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:32.160 but like, you know, a girl that I was dating 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:35.880 in college and didn't date anymore. I couldn't get enough chuck. 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:39.760 I mean a few times, like banging on my bedroom 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:41.320 window in the middle of the night kind of thing, 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:44.280 like come out here and talk to me, that kind 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:46.760 of thing. Well, I mean that is that is stalking, 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:50.240 especially if it happens repeatedly, if especially if she had 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:54.160 like escalated over time. Yeah, this didn't really escalate, and 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:55.919 it was only a couple of times. I think then 0:02:55.960 --> 0:03:00.400 that would probably qualify as what's called harassment. Yeah, her asthmate. 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:03.680 But I will say this, I moved to New Jersey, uh, 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:06.160 just a few months after that, because that was the 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:09.520 end of college and that's what I did. Um, and 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:13.840 I didn't go because of that. But it was definitely like, well, 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:16.880 there's also the benefit of moving to New Jersey. And 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:19.840 one week into being in New Jersey, we lived out 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:22.840 in the woods. I had a dream that a bear 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:26.240 came out of the woods and pounded on my windows 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:28.800 and like pounded on my door until it fell down 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:30.760 and the bear came in. It was one of those 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:32.760 where I woke up and I was like, well, I 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:39.480 know what that means. Yeah, the Blair the bear. Her 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:41.000 name is not Blair, by the way, that wasn't a 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:45.880 Freudian slop right, the bear definitely like resembled her in 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:47.960 some way. It was her name wasn't Blair, but she 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:51.720 looked exactly like Blair from Facts of Life. Oh wish. Yeah, 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:56.080 I wouldn't have broken up with her now, To be fair, also, 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:59.280 this was I was young and immature and probably wasn't 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.080 the best breaker rupper. Oh, it's not to say I 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:05.000 deserved it, but well, I really think that that's a 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:07.720 really that's a good point. You've made like seventeen good 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:11.280 points in there. Okay, So number one, men get stalked 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:14.640 to UM, and depending on where you live, it can 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:18.880 happen pretty close to UM in equal frequencies women being stalked, 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:21.719 although I don't think anywhere it's equal. I think almost 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:23.800 across the board, if not totally across the board. Women 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:27.680 are stalked more frequently than men are. But men can 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:32.080 be stalked pretty much evenly by women and other men. UM. 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:35.559 Not just in the realm of like ex lovers, whether 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:39.839 you're hetero or straight, but also like you might be stalked, 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:41.560 and if you're a woman, you might be stalked by 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:45.480 another woman to someone who's jealous angry or resentful of 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:49.520 you or your arrival or something. Single white female, right exactly, 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:52.080 somebody who's just going to become obsessed with you. So 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:54.360 that was one thing. Men can be stalked, and that's 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:59.279 very important. But um, but also you said like that 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.920 you weren't the us to break her upper and there's 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.880 a lot of um. There's a lot of perceptions, like 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:09.560 misconceptions and misperceptions about what stalking is, what the victims 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:12.080 of stalking do or don't deserve, what they did or 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:15.360 didn't do wrong, and from everything that's kind of emerging 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.320 over study of this for the last few decades. If 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:21.000 you're a stalking victim, you basically did nothing wrong, but 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:24.200 everybody assumed you did something wrong, Like you didn't break 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:28.840 up with them properly. Yeah, mixed signals or yeah, maybe 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:32.239 you flirted or you were too nice or whatever. Um 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:34.280 or maybe you're making a big deal out of all 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:36.320 this one Really it's not the guy just likes you 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:40.119 or something. Maybe you're just seeing at Yeah, yeah, maybe 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:42.200 you got it in your head from watching Sally Jesse 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:44.880 Raphael or something like. We're not saying these things. By 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:47.479 the way, this is like a lot of the misconceptions 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.159 that that people who are victims of stalking run into 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:54.600 even from law enforcement. Luckily, it's changed dramatically and the 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.160 laws and law enforcement are taking it far more seriously 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:02.640 than they did before. But it's definitely still not automatically like, oh, 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:05.120 you're being stuck. Great, let me here's how they help you. Well, 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:07.440 and especially I think of a certain age group, like 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:11.320 your grandparents may think it's romantic. There's this great Hampton 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:15.080 youw um joke. Yeah, remember him, he was at her Okay, 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.920 so Hampton youw was saying, um, he was like our 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:23.280 grandparents generation were nuts. It was like my granddad said, 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:26.120 you know, for three and eight days in a row, 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:28.360 I went to your grandmother's work and I asked her 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:32.040 to marry me. And finally on days and yes, it's funny, 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:36.159 like uh, yeah, I mean, stalking is a and we'll 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:38.560 go ahead and tell you straight up, it's it's a 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:41.120 new term that's only been around for a few decades, 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:44.240 but it's an old behavior. It's an old yes, it's 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:48.240 just we're finally waking up to the impact that Yeah, yeah, 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:53.320 thanks granddad. So so um, let's talk about kind of 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:55.919 the history of the understanding of stalking. It was actually 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:58.920 not until the late eighties that the world really started 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:01.120 to kind of wake up to this whole thing after 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:05.080 a couple of high profile killings. Uh. Yeah, celebrity obviously. 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:08.040 If you know, if you want to get something sadly 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:10.080 in the news, if you want to get something in 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:13.800 the news, it's having a celebrity undergo that or be 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:16.720 a victim to that is the best way. Uh. And 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:20.280 that did happen a few times. Um. Well, first of all, 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:23.480 there's been a lot of movies over the years, like 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:26.440 a lot, and Robert de Niro was in a lot 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:32.240 of them. Yeah, victim and uh taxi driver no wait, 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:35.120 and and the fan he was he was also he 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:37.000 was the stalker in there. I think it was Wesley 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:40.200 Snipes was baseball player, he was a fan. I was thinking, 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:42.320 was he the baseball player? But that was banged the 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:45.440 drum slowly. Oh yeah, he's a baseball player in that. Yeah, 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:49.840 he played catcher Thurman monthson of the Yankees who died young. Um, 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:55.120 but yeah, Taxi Driver, Stalker, Cape fear Stalker. What was 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:57.239 the other one with the fan? Not a very good movie, 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:00.880 but I remember the two were good. I remember reading 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:07.240 he hung out with knife salesman to understand his character better. Uh, 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:11.720 fatal attraction, of course, of course. Um the crush single 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:15.120 white female one our photo. Do you see that, Robin Williams. Yeah, 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:16.760 but I forgot all about it. Was that that was 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:19.720 sort of family obsessed, like they have the perfect family. 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:22.760 I want to be that husband. Um, so what do 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.000 you do? Well, I'm not going to ruin it. Was 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:27.880 he like scary Robin Williams in it. Yeah, he was 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:31.320 a photo processor, like a photo booth guy, and so 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:33.280 he would look at his pictures of the family and 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:38.000 sup unnerving in that. Yeah, it's always portrayed the same way. Um, 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:41.040 The King of Comedy Classic. These are just a few 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:46.320 of my favorites in that he was. That's what I'm 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:50.040 saying that that's four. I think he likes these roles. Boy, 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:52.520 I had never thought about that. And then there was 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:54.000 one I want to shout out from a few years 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:58.200 ago called The Gift that was really good. Jason Bateman. Oh, 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:00.600 I didn't see that one. It's good. And I saw 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:02.760 that as well. I thought you were talking about the 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:06.000 one with that Billy Bob Thornton directed with Kate Blanchet 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.400 as a psychic and oh no, that was good too, though, 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:10.520 was he was just I don't think he directed that 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.400 though he did? Did he? I thought that was Sam 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:16.160 Rami Now I've always positive did he write it then? 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.680 And I don't know he did something for it. Well. 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.240 It's interesting though, to look at these movies. I like 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:25.840 so many of them, and there are a lot of them, 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:29.000 considering that stalking hasn't been around that long. Well, I 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.560 also thought, like, there's also comedies too. There's something about 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:35.800 Mary stalking through and through. Oh yeah, say anything standing 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:39.240 outside with the boom box. That's romantic stalk, right, That's 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:42.600 what I'm saying, all right, Grandpa, I just wonder what this. 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:46.679 It's interesting, though, the obsession with entertainment about stalking, Like 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:49.480 people are into these movies, right, and dozens and dozens 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:52.120 of them. We know it's creepy and weird to stalk 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:55.920 before we even called it stalking, though, is I mean 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:59.080 based on this this body of movies, Yeah, and I 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:04.599 think not. Actually a lot of these are post like nine, 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:07.480 but not all of them. But not all of them, 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:10.800 You're right? Uh? The Grabster wrote this though, and he 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:16.240 points out Peter Lawford from The rat Pack Um was. 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.840 He talked about it in his book Without There wasn't 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:21.720 a name for it though, that shows just how new 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:24.800 it is, because this was and he said, they are 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:28.319 crazies who become so obsessed with celebrity that their fantasies 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:31.240 are lived as though they're a reality. They can walk 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.000 your streets, follow you everywhere, telephone you, send you letters, 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.839 generally harass you. They can threaten you, discuss the scene 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:39.200 X they're planning to perform on your body. Can do 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.920 almost anything they wish, but as long as they do 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.040 not physically hurt you, the police have limited power and 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:47.760 elaborate rules to follow. Yeah, because that's a that's a 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:52.760 confounding factor for years, was that you know, you've got 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:56.360 like First Amendment protection, you can say weird things and 0:10:56.400 --> 0:11:01.560 you can be in public places. But after the death 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:05.200 of well first actually, the first taste of stalking in 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.560 real life that that America at least had was with 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:11.160 an actress named Teresa Seal Donna who was in Raging 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:14.959 Bowl with de Niro. Yeah, pet played Petci's wife. Huh 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:19.120 and um, she was very publicly stabbed in front of 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:22.880 her apartments like I think ten times, very violently, like 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:26.880 the knife bent even it was really horrific. Fortunately she 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.560 survived and she actually became a victim's advocate for stalkers 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:32.720 for the rest of her life. But that was like 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.160 kind of a big whoa, whoa what what was that? Like? 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:38.800 The guy the guy was a drifter, had become obsessed 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:42.240 with her. Yeah, he was mentally ill, and we'll talk 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:46.720 a lot about mental illness throughout this this show. But um, 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:52.199 he eventually was extradited to the UK on another murder charge. Uh, 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:54.760 and they found him not guilty. I guess whatever they 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:58.200 call reasons of insanity as different wording over there. But 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:01.400 he was committed and died in a hospital in two 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:04.640 thousand four. But she went on to you know, I 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.040 think she made a TV movie about it. Yes, it 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:11.040 was scary stuff. Yeah, but Rebecca Schaeffer was the one 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:15.079 seven years later that really hit the news. My sister 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:18.880 Sam that that was. I mean, these are all equally 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:22.920 horrifying and sad, but this she was stalked for three 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:28.040 years by this man who um again an obsessed fan 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:30.720 yeah who who did the same thing to other famous women, 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:33.480 Like she wasn't the only one, but he is, She's 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:38.160 the one, um who he killed and Marcia Clark actually 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:44.160 tried that case. A little known fact. Huh yeah, yeah, 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.280 he's he's still in prison actually, um and he was 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:53.480 shanked in prison like ten years ago eleven times. Yeah, 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:56.640 so he's still in jail. So um they they actually 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:59.720 the guy who stalked Rebecca Schaefer took a lot of 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:02.559 his cues from the playbook of the guy who uh 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:07.960 stalked Teresa Seldana actually use things like um, something called pretexting, 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:12.320 which is a really uh pretty common way that stalkers 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:15.400 will get information about their victims is pretending there's somebody 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:18.839 either not and then get it get info from unsuspecting 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:22.840 like family members or whatever. UM. Hiring a private detective 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.600 to get info used to be a lot easier way easier, 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:27.880 like you could go to the d n B and 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:30.800 be like, hey, where does this person live? Right, it 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:34.960 might tell you up until it wasn't your information wasn't 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:39.080 federally protected at the UM. And then there was actually 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:41.520 a website, one of the early websites, and I think 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:47.720 the nineties UM helped you stalk people easily, Like I 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:49.720 cannot remember the name of the site, but they would 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:54.079 basically socially engineer a chance meeting with whoever you wanted, 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:56.240 and they would give you all this information on them 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:59.320 and teach you how to strike up a conversation and 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:01.920 talk about all the stuff that you knew they already knew, 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:04.760 they liked. And it was a website that was dedicated 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:07.880 to helping stalking. It almost sounds like a dating app 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:15.040 social media, right. And then Letterman also really shined a 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:18.439 light on this with his stalker, who was a woman 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:20.920 who used to break into his house pretty frequently. Yeah, 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:23.480 that was a very sad case. Um, and we'll get 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:27.880 into where she fits in the modern definitions, but uh, 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:31.240 she was afflicted with schizophrenia and he was he was. 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:34.040 He often didn't press charges, and he was pretty like 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:36.760 cool about it. He joked about it here and there 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:38.400 on the show. I think too. She made his top 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:40.640 ten lists a lot. Yeah, just to try and make 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:42.720 light of it, I guess. But um, she went on 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:49.240 to stalk and Astronaut as well. Yeah, and they both expressed, um, 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:52.320 just sort of a general condolence and sadness when she 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:57.160 took her own life, like I think Letterman knew, uh, 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:59.440 and you know she would they would wake up with 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:01.640 her on her pretty she stole his car one time, 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:05.480 like serious stuff, but as we'll learn later, she falls 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:11.280 into a category that generally is not physically dangerous to 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:16.840 her victim, but still like it's just unnerving. So all 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:20.640 these celebrities being stalked kind of shine a light on 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:25.080 stalking in general, although not necessarily the most the correct 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:29.320 light initially, but they definitely brought it to everyone's attention 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.720 and that kind of brought it under the jurisdiction of 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:35.960 the law. That the law got much more involved after that. 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:38.440 And um, let's take a break and then we'll get 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.240 into that. You want to, Yeah, okay, we'll be right back, 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:08.000 all right, Chuck. So the America said Letterman's being stalked, 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:11.200 Rebecca Schaefer's killed, Teresa s al Donna went through this, 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:15.200 let's do something about this finally. Yeah, And and it's 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:19.840 tough to get good statistics because you know, it depends 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:22.920 on what states you're in, what the definition of stalking is, 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:25.520 whether or not. And this is one of the big 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:29.360 problems is the actual crimes committed. Like now stalking is 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:33.440 a crime, but before that it was it's like, you know, 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:36.520 it's not necessarily crime, like you said, to be waiting 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:39.640 for someone in a parking lot. Right, it's creepy, but 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:42.880 a law isn't broken, or if laws are broken, they're 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:47.440 little misdemeanors usually. Yeah, So it was always a sort 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:50.320 of legal gray area until you know, like you said, 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:53.440 the high profile incidents happened. Um, and that's when the 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.760 d O G A U d O G, the d 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:03.560 double ghg uh, the d O J went um got 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:07.439 serious and they created a legal definition of engaging in 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.399 a course of conduct directed at a specific person that 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:12.720 would cause a reasonable person to fear for his or 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.840 her safety or the safety of others, or suffer substantial 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:20.199 emotional distress. And that definition is really important because it 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:26.200 says cause a reasonable person to fear. And while that's 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:30.040 open to inter interpretation, it's not a It doesn't say 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:34.919 like there has to be a literal, vocalized threat to 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:37.480 to count, you know, like they don't have to say 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:40.639 like I'm gonna get you in in you know where 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:44.280 you for a raincoat, Like you can just feel that 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:48.600 threat if you're a reasonable person. Um, And that and 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:52.600 that counts, thank god, because that's that really opens opens 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.120 it up, you know, right. Um, And it doesn't even 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:58.280 have to be The threat doesn't even have to be um, 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:01.240 a physical threat. Either could be like I'm going to 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:04.880 make up lies about you on the internet or I'm 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.240 going to go tell your parents. Um, you know, all 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:11.040 the all the like stuff we did together, like we 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:14.080 did drugs. Like, there's all sorts of different ways you 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:17.439 can threaten somebody beyond violence. I'm going to trample your 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:21.040 flower bed exactly. Um, there's a lot of like ways 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:23.840 you can threaten and intimidate somebody, and all of these things, 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:26.520 each of these acts is considered harassment. I was looking 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:28.920 up to try to figure out what is the distinction 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:33.000 between harassment and stalking, and it's really tough to find 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:37.640 an obvious distinction. But from what I could get, harassment 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:41.600 are the individual acts that people do when they're stalking, 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:47.280 and stalking is a pattern of harassment frequently escalates over time. Yeah, 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:51.159 and it also obviously blurs lines with domestic violence, like 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:53.240 it is. Yeah, and I think you can you can 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:56.520 even say it as a form of domestic violence. Um, 0:18:56.560 --> 0:19:00.119 depending on you know the person at all, right, then 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.200 it doesn't count. Yeah, there's a lot of categories of stalking. 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:05.680 We'll get into him in a second, but um, domestic 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:10.080 violence is definitely one of the cradles that stalking is 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:13.520 born from. Yeah, And one of the really sad things 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.480 about it is there's a a lot of times it 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:25.200 it just there's no possible uh good result, Like oftentimes 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:28.200 a start a stalker might stop but then start back up, 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:31.680 like too often the end result is like someone's death 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:34.520 or a physical attack. It can be or there's just 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:38.480 no closure resolution, right, Like even if the stalker stops, 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:41.600 that doesn't mean that the victim is like, oh good, 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:43.280 I can have my life back. I don't worry about 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:46.560 that guy anymore. Like that that the trust, the security, 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:49.359 all of those things that that most of us just 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:51.760 take for granted on a daily basis have been lost 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:54.960 and they're not just immediately regained, because it's like you said, 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:59.080 with stalkers, the behavior can just be discontinued and then 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:00.840 it can start back up, get out of the blue, 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:03.320 and so you never know when they're going to pop 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:06.040 back by, or it probably freaks you out even more 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:10.400 when they stop communicating, because what are they doing? Right? Yeah, 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:13.560 and even if they get even if your stalker gets 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.520 thrown in prison or gets hit by a bus, like 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:20.840 there can be irreparable psychological damage done to you. You 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:23.960 may never be able to trust another man or woman again, 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:27.359 and and have a hard time finding a love relationship 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.680 that you can trust, you know. And this happens so 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.920 much more to women. And it's not I think these 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:36.480 statistics you can kind of just flush down the john 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:39.879 because so many of it, so much of it goes unreported, 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:42.560 and so much of it is stuff that women have 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:47.359 just dealt with since you know, the beginning of time, 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:49.960 Like the guy who's a little too handy or a 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:53.320 little too creepy, or a little too forward, or doesn't 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:55.480 take Noah on a you know, ask me out for 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:59.199 a date, like Grandpa showed up every day. You know. 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:01.440 It's just it's just sad. I mean, I think things 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:05.000 are starting to change. But um, as far as stats go, 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:08.480 it's hard to even take those seriously sometimes, and before 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:12.159 these incidences in the early nineties, it was hard to 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:15.959 even get cops sometimes to investigate or like either they 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:19.199 didn't have power, they didn't take it seriously. UM in 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:27.320 Violence Against Women Act really broadened um well like training, advocacy, counseling, 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:30.679 but really like law enforcement, giving them broader powers to 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:34.800 investigate and arrest um was a big deal, and Joe 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:37.720 Biden was actually one of the the champions and big 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:42.120 supporters of and drafting that violence. Yeah. Yeah, So part 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:44.600 of our national shame from the shutdown is that that 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:50.800 law was allowed to expire in the um Stalking Awareness Month, 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:55.600 which is January. Yeah, everything about that sucked. Yeah, but 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:59.560 it has been signed immediately like after Like that was 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:01.600 one of the first things that happened was they they 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:04.280 re up to that Act as soon as the government 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:06.080 went back to work, which I mean, it is a 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:08.199 big deal that there is. I mean, that's a larger 0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:10.840 Umbrella Act, but it does include all sorts of funding 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:14.640 for stalking support and resources. And as we'll see, if 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:16.560 you're being stalked, there's a lot of places for you 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:20.280 to turn, but those places need to get federal funding 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:25.000 because they're usually pretty small nonprofits that can't float themselves. Yeah. 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:27.520 Two thousand eighteen, you want to talk about another feel 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:31.760 good act, the Pause act Um, which had you know this, 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:34.800 it wasn't just about this, but under that Umbrella act 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:40.879 Um it included threats to your pets, because that's a 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:42.800 big one. People. A lot of times part of the 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:45.240 pattern of stalking is you know, you come home and 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:49.439 you find your animal dead, fatal attraction, that bunny got boiled. 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:54.840 UM and not only protecting the pets, but UM grants 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:58.680 and funding for shelters to allow you to bring your pet, 0:22:58.840 --> 0:23:03.080 because that's some people rightfully won't leave their pets behind. 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:07.560 I mean, that's that's a decision you shouldn't have to make. 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:10.000 But you like, I can't go to that that home 0:23:10.119 --> 0:23:12.840 that can protect me because they won't take my dog. 0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:15.640 Right And it's not just with UM, with people who 0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:19.480 are being stalked. Homeless shelters have the same problems too. 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:23.359 There's there's very few homeless shelters that have accommodations for 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:28.280 pets as well. UM. So one of the other, UH, 0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:32.119 one of the other big laws came in that Clinton 0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:35.960