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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from how Stuff Works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,

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Speaker 1: and there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry and

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Speaker 1: this is Stuff you should Know. Jerry creepily in the background, right,

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Speaker 1: she just has stopped working in this staring at us

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Speaker 1: right now, that's right, which is not at all funny. No,

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Speaker 1: it's not. It's like we can get around about this stuff,

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Speaker 1: but nothing about it. It's funny. No, it's really like,

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Speaker 1: but we just try to make light of things that

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Speaker 1: are uncomfortable. That's what we do. Yeah, we did one

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Speaker 1: on Coma's once, remember, that's right. That was hysterical question

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Speaker 1: with a laugh. Right. It was like Leslie Nielsen and

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Speaker 1: Priscilla Presley coming out from Platoon on Naked Gun. You remember,

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Speaker 1: just laughing, all right, watch Naked Gun two and a half.

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Speaker 1: The other days hold up, holds up and then some Yeah,

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Speaker 1: especially once you've met the director personally, right, that's right. Man,

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Speaker 1: we met him a thousand years ago, maybe maybe five

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Speaker 1: thousand years ago. It was a while. So, Chuck, we

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Speaker 1: have a good hundred and fifty pages on stalking here.

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Speaker 1: It's at um and you say, like, no, it's not funny. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: it's not funny. And it's really tough to put yourself

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Speaker 1: in the situation of a person who's being stalked. But

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Speaker 1: there are there's a lot of quotes from people who

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Speaker 1: um compare it to what's a form of abuse. It

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Speaker 1: might not be physical, although if it frequently can turn

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Speaker 1: into something physical or violent. There's a lot of blurred

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Speaker 1: lines here. Um. But even if it never gets physical

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Speaker 1: at all, it is a form of abuse. It's a

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Speaker 1: form of psychological abuse, protracted torment wherein you the victim,

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Speaker 1: feel like your life has been infected. It affects every

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Speaker 1: part of your life and you're constantly you feel like

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Speaker 1: you're certently being watched. And as one victim to put it,

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Speaker 1: like not in any sort of flattering way. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: had the most minimal form of stalking happened to me

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Speaker 1: in college, and I cannot imagine what like a serious

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Speaker 1: stalking situation might feel like considering how that made me feel.

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Speaker 1: Really yeah, and not, you know, very minimal. Trust me,

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying like I know how it feels, man,

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Speaker 1: but like, you know, a girl that I was dating

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Speaker 1: in college and didn't date anymore. I couldn't get enough chuck.

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Speaker 1: I mean a few times, like banging on my bedroom

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Speaker 1: window in the middle of the night kind of thing,

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Speaker 1: like come out here and talk to me, that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. Well, I mean that is that is stalking,

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Speaker 1: especially if it happens repeatedly, if especially if she had

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Speaker 1: like escalated over time. Yeah, this didn't really escalate, and

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Speaker 1: it was only a couple of times. I think then

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Speaker 1: that would probably qualify as what's called harassment. Yeah, her asthmate.

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Speaker 1: But I will say this, I moved to New Jersey, uh,

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Speaker 1: just a few months after that, because that was the

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Speaker 1: end of college and that's what I did. Um, and

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Speaker 1: I didn't go because of that. But it was definitely like, well,

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Speaker 1: there's also the benefit of moving to New Jersey. And

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Speaker 1: one week into being in New Jersey, we lived out

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Speaker 1: in the woods. I had a dream that a bear

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Speaker 1: came out of the woods and pounded on my windows

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Speaker 1: and like pounded on my door until it fell down

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Speaker 1: and the bear came in. It was one of those

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Speaker 1: where I woke up and I was like, well, I

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Speaker 1: know what that means. Yeah, the Blair the bear. Her

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Speaker 1: name is not Blair, by the way, that wasn't a

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Speaker 1: Freudian slop right, the bear definitely like resembled her in

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Speaker 1: some way. It was her name wasn't Blair, but she

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Speaker 1: looked exactly like Blair from Facts of Life. Oh wish. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't have broken up with her now, To be fair, also,

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Speaker 1: this was I was young and immature and probably wasn't

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Speaker 1: the best breaker rupper. Oh, it's not to say I

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Speaker 1: deserved it, but well, I really think that that's a

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Speaker 1: really that's a good point. You've made like seventeen good

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Speaker 1: points in there. Okay, So number one, men get stalked

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Speaker 1: to UM, and depending on where you live, it can

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Speaker 1: happen pretty close to UM in equal frequencies women being stalked,

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Speaker 1: although I don't think anywhere it's equal. I think almost

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Speaker 1: across the board, if not totally across the board. Women

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Speaker 1: are stalked more frequently than men are. But men can

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Speaker 1: be stalked pretty much evenly by women and other men. UM.

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Speaker 1: Not just in the realm of like ex lovers, whether

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Speaker 1: you're hetero or straight, but also like you might be stalked,

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Speaker 1: and if you're a woman, you might be stalked by

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Speaker 1: another woman to someone who's jealous angry or resentful of

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Speaker 1: you or your arrival or something. Single white female, right exactly,

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Speaker 1: somebody who's just going to become obsessed with you. So

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Speaker 1: that was one thing. Men can be stalked, and that's

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Speaker 1: very important. But um, but also you said like that

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Speaker 1: you weren't the us to break her upper and there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of um. There's a lot of perceptions, like

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Speaker 1: misconceptions and misperceptions about what stalking is, what the victims

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Speaker 1: of stalking do or don't deserve, what they did or

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Speaker 1: didn't do wrong, and from everything that's kind of emerging

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Speaker 1: over study of this for the last few decades. If

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Speaker 1: you're a stalking victim, you basically did nothing wrong, but

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Speaker 1: everybody assumed you did something wrong, Like you didn't break

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Speaker 1: up with them properly. Yeah, mixed signals or yeah, maybe

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Speaker 1: you flirted or you were too nice or whatever. Um

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Speaker 1: or maybe you're making a big deal out of all

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Speaker 1: this one Really it's not the guy just likes you

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Speaker 1: or something. Maybe you're just seeing at Yeah, yeah, maybe

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Speaker 1: you got it in your head from watching Sally Jesse

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Speaker 1: Raphael or something like. We're not saying these things. By

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Speaker 1: the way, this is like a lot of the misconceptions

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Speaker 1: that that people who are victims of stalking run into

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Speaker 1: even from law enforcement. Luckily, it's changed dramatically and the

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Speaker 1: laws and law enforcement are taking it far more seriously

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Speaker 1: than they did before. But it's definitely still not automatically like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you're being stuck. Great, let me here's how they help you. Well,

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Speaker 1: and especially I think of a certain age group, like

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Speaker 1: your grandparents may think it's romantic. There's this great Hampton

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Speaker 1: youw um joke. Yeah, remember him, he was at her Okay,

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Speaker 1: so Hampton youw was saying, um, he was like our

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Speaker 1: grandparents generation were nuts. It was like my granddad said,

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Speaker 1: you know, for three and eight days in a row,

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Speaker 1: I went to your grandmother's work and I asked her

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Speaker 1: to marry me. And finally on days and yes, it's funny,

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Speaker 1: like uh, yeah, I mean, stalking is a and we'll

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Speaker 1: go ahead and tell you straight up, it's it's a

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Speaker 1: new term that's only been around for a few decades,

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Speaker 1: but it's an old behavior. It's an old yes, it's

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Speaker 1: just we're finally waking up to the impact that Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: thanks granddad. So so um, let's talk about kind of

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Speaker 1: the history of the understanding of stalking. It was actually

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Speaker 1: not until the late eighties that the world really started

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Speaker 1: to kind of wake up to this whole thing after

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Speaker 1: a couple of high profile killings. Uh. Yeah, celebrity obviously.

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Speaker 1: If you know, if you want to get something sadly

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Speaker 1: in the news, if you want to get something in

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Speaker 1: the news, it's having a celebrity undergo that or be

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Speaker 1: a victim to that is the best way. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: that did happen a few times. Um. Well, first of all,

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Speaker 1: there's been a lot of movies over the years, like

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Speaker 1: a lot, and Robert de Niro was in a lot

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Speaker 1: of them. Yeah, victim and uh taxi driver no wait,

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Speaker 1: and and the fan he was he was also he

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Speaker 1: was the stalker in there. I think it was Wesley

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Speaker 1: Snipes was baseball player, he was a fan. I was thinking,

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Speaker 1: was he the baseball player? But that was banged the

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Speaker 1: drum slowly. Oh yeah, he's a baseball player in that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he played catcher Thurman monthson of the Yankees who died young. Um,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, Taxi Driver, Stalker, Cape fear Stalker. What was

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Speaker 1: the other one with the fan? Not a very good movie,

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Speaker 1: but I remember the two were good. I remember reading

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Speaker 1: he hung out with knife salesman to understand his character better. Uh,

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Speaker 1: fatal attraction, of course, of course. Um the crush single

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Speaker 1: white female one our photo. Do you see that, Robin Williams. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I forgot all about it. Was that that was

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Speaker 1: sort of family obsessed, like they have the perfect family.

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Speaker 1: I want to be that husband. Um, so what do

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Speaker 1: you do? Well, I'm not going to ruin it. Was

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Speaker 1: he like scary Robin Williams in it. Yeah, he was

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Speaker 1: a photo processor, like a photo booth guy, and so

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Speaker 1: he would look at his pictures of the family and

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Speaker 1: sup unnerving in that. Yeah, it's always portrayed the same way. Um,

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Speaker 1: The King of Comedy Classic. These are just a few

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Speaker 1: of my favorites in that he was. That's what I'm

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Speaker 1: saying that that's four. I think he likes these roles. Boy,

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Speaker 1: I had never thought about that. And then there was

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Speaker 1: one I want to shout out from a few years

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Speaker 1: ago called The Gift that was really good. Jason Bateman. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I didn't see that one. It's good. And I saw

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Speaker 1: that as well. I thought you were talking about the

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Speaker 1: one with that Billy Bob Thornton directed with Kate Blanchet

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Speaker 1: as a psychic and oh no, that was good too, though,

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Speaker 1: was he was just I don't think he directed that

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Speaker 1: though he did? Did he? I thought that was Sam

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Speaker 1: Rami Now I've always positive did he write it then?

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Speaker 1: And I don't know he did something for it. Well.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting though, to look at these movies. I like

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Speaker 1: so many of them, and there are a lot of them,

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Speaker 1: considering that stalking hasn't been around that long. Well, I

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Speaker 1: also thought, like, there's also comedies too. There's something about

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Speaker 1: Mary stalking through and through. Oh yeah, say anything standing

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Speaker 1: outside with the boom box. That's romantic stalk, right, That's

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying, all right, Grandpa, I just wonder what this.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting, though, the obsession with entertainment about stalking, Like

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Speaker 1: people are into these movies, right, and dozens and dozens

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Speaker 1: of them. We know it's creepy and weird to stalk

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Speaker 1: before we even called it stalking, though, is I mean

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Speaker 1: based on this this body of movies, Yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: think not. Actually a lot of these are post like nine,

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Speaker 1: but not all of them. But not all of them,

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Speaker 1: You're right? Uh? The Grabster wrote this though, and he

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Speaker 1: points out Peter Lawford from The rat Pack Um was.

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Speaker 1: He talked about it in his book Without There wasn't

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Speaker 1: a name for it though, that shows just how new

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Speaker 1: it is, because this was and he said, they are

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Speaker 1: crazies who become so obsessed with celebrity that their fantasies

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Speaker 1: are lived as though they're a reality. They can walk

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Speaker 1: your streets, follow you everywhere, telephone you, send you letters,

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Speaker 1: generally harass you. They can threaten you, discuss the scene

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Speaker 1: X they're planning to perform on your body. Can do

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Speaker 1: almost anything they wish, but as long as they do

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Speaker 1: not physically hurt you, the police have limited power and

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Speaker 1: elaborate rules to follow. Yeah, because that's a that's a

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Speaker 1: confounding factor for years, was that you know, you've got

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Speaker 1: like First Amendment protection, you can say weird things and

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Speaker 1: you can be in public places. But after the death

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Speaker 1: of well first actually, the first taste of stalking in

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Speaker 1: real life that that America at least had was with

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Speaker 1: an actress named Teresa Seal Donna who was in Raging

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Speaker 1: Bowl with de Niro. Yeah, pet played Petci's wife. Huh

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Speaker 1: and um, she was very publicly stabbed in front of

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Speaker 1: her apartments like I think ten times, very violently, like

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Speaker 1: the knife bent even it was really horrific. Fortunately she

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Speaker 1: survived and she actually became a victim's advocate for stalkers

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Speaker 1: for the rest of her life. But that was like

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Speaker 1: kind of a big whoa, whoa what what was that? Like?

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Speaker 1: The guy the guy was a drifter, had become obsessed

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Speaker 1: with her. Yeah, he was mentally ill, and we'll talk

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Speaker 1: a lot about mental illness throughout this this show. But um,

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Speaker 1: he eventually was extradited to the UK on another murder charge. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and they found him not guilty. I guess whatever they

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Speaker 1: call reasons of insanity as different wording over there. But

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Speaker 1: he was committed and died in a hospital in two

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Speaker 1: thousand four. But she went on to you know, I

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Speaker 1: think she made a TV movie about it. Yes, it

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Speaker 1: was scary stuff. Yeah, but Rebecca Schaeffer was the one

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Speaker 1: seven years later that really hit the news. My sister

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Speaker 1: Sam that that was. I mean, these are all equally

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Speaker 1: horrifying and sad, but this she was stalked for three

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Speaker 1: years by this man who um again an obsessed fan

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Speaker 1: yeah who who did the same thing to other famous women,

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Speaker 1: Like she wasn't the only one, but he is, She's

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Speaker 1: the one, um who he killed and Marcia Clark actually

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Speaker 1: tried that case. A little known fact. Huh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's he's still in prison actually, um and he was

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Speaker 1: shanked in prison like ten years ago eleven times. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so he's still in jail. So um they they actually

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Speaker 1: the guy who stalked Rebecca Schaefer took a lot of

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Speaker 1: his cues from the playbook of the guy who uh

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Speaker 1: stalked Teresa Seldana actually use things like um, something called pretexting,

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Speaker 1: which is a really uh pretty common way that stalkers

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Speaker 1: will get information about their victims is pretending there's somebody

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Speaker 1: either not and then get it get info from unsuspecting

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Speaker 1: like family members or whatever. UM. Hiring a private detective

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Speaker 1: to get info used to be a lot easier way easier,

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Speaker 1: like you could go to the d n B and

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Speaker 1: be like, hey, where does this person live? Right, it

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Speaker 1: might tell you up until it wasn't your information wasn't

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Speaker 1: federally protected at the UM. And then there was actually

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Speaker 1: a website, one of the early websites, and I think

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Speaker 1: the nineties UM helped you stalk people easily, Like I

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Speaker 1: cannot remember the name of the site, but they would

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Speaker 1: basically socially engineer a chance meeting with whoever you wanted,

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Speaker 1: and they would give you all this information on them

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Speaker 1: and teach you how to strike up a conversation and

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Speaker 1: talk about all the stuff that you knew they already knew,

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Speaker 1: they liked. And it was a website that was dedicated

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Speaker 1: to helping stalking. It almost sounds like a dating app

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Speaker 1: social media, right. And then Letterman also really shined a

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Speaker 1: light on this with his stalker, who was a woman

250
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Speaker 1: who used to break into his house pretty frequently. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was a very sad case. Um, and we'll get

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Speaker 1: into where she fits in the modern definitions, but uh,

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Speaker 1: she was afflicted with schizophrenia and he was he was.

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Speaker 1: He often didn't press charges, and he was pretty like

255
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Speaker 1: cool about it. He joked about it here and there

256
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Speaker 1: on the show. I think too. She made his top

257
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Speaker 1: ten lists a lot. Yeah, just to try and make

258
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:42,720
Speaker 1: light of it, I guess. But um, she went on

259
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Speaker 1: to stalk and Astronaut as well. Yeah, and they both expressed, um,

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Speaker 1: just sort of a general condolence and sadness when she

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Speaker 1: took her own life, like I think Letterman knew, uh,

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Speaker 1: and you know she would they would wake up with

263
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Speaker 1: her on her pretty she stole his car one time,

264
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,480
Speaker 1: like serious stuff, but as we'll learn later, she falls

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Speaker 1: into a category that generally is not physically dangerous to

266
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Speaker 1: her victim, but still like it's just unnerving. So all

267
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Speaker 1: these celebrities being stalked kind of shine a light on

268
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Speaker 1: stalking in general, although not necessarily the most the correct

269
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Speaker 1: light initially, but they definitely brought it to everyone's attention

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Speaker 1: and that kind of brought it under the jurisdiction of

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Speaker 1: the law. That the law got much more involved after that.

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Speaker 1: And um, let's take a break and then we'll get

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Speaker 1: into that. You want to, Yeah, okay, we'll be right back,

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Speaker 1: all right, Chuck. So the America said Letterman's being stalked,

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Speaker 1: Rebecca Schaefer's killed, Teresa s al Donna went through this,

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Speaker 1: let's do something about this finally. Yeah, And and it's

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Speaker 1: tough to get good statistics because you know, it depends

278
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Speaker 1: on what states you're in, what the definition of stalking is,

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Speaker 1: whether or not. And this is one of the big

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Speaker 1: problems is the actual crimes committed. Like now stalking is

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Speaker 1: a crime, but before that it was it's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily crime, like you said, to be waiting

283
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Speaker 1: for someone in a parking lot. Right, it's creepy, but

284
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Speaker 1: a law isn't broken, or if laws are broken, they're

285
00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:47,440
Speaker 1: little misdemeanors usually. Yeah, So it was always a sort

286
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,320
Speaker 1: of legal gray area until you know, like you said,

287
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Speaker 1: the high profile incidents happened. Um, and that's when the

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Speaker 1: d O G A U d O G, the d

289
00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:03,560
Speaker 1: double ghg uh, the d O J went um got

290
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Speaker 1: serious and they created a legal definition of engaging in

291
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,399
Speaker 1: a course of conduct directed at a specific person that

292
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Speaker 1: would cause a reasonable person to fear for his or

293
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Speaker 1: her safety or the safety of others, or suffer substantial

294
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Speaker 1: emotional distress. And that definition is really important because it

295
00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:26,200
Speaker 1: says cause a reasonable person to fear. And while that's

296
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,040
Speaker 1: open to inter interpretation, it's not a It doesn't say

297
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,919
Speaker 1: like there has to be a literal, vocalized threat to

298
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Speaker 1: to count, you know, like they don't have to say

299
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Speaker 1: like I'm gonna get you in in you know where

300
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Speaker 1: you for a raincoat, Like you can just feel that

301
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,600
Speaker 1: threat if you're a reasonable person. Um, And that and

302
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,600
Speaker 1: that counts, thank god, because that's that really opens opens

303
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,120
Speaker 1: it up, you know, right. Um, And it doesn't even

304
00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,280
Speaker 1: have to be The threat doesn't even have to be um,

305
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,240
Speaker 1: a physical threat. Either could be like I'm going to

306
00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,880
Speaker 1: make up lies about you on the internet or I'm

307
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,240
Speaker 1: going to go tell your parents. Um, you know, all

308
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,040
Speaker 1: the all the like stuff we did together, like we

309
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,080
Speaker 1: did drugs. Like, there's all sorts of different ways you

310
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Speaker 1: can threaten somebody beyond violence. I'm going to trample your

311
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,040
Speaker 1: flower bed exactly. Um, there's a lot of like ways

312
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,840
Speaker 1: you can threaten and intimidate somebody, and all of these things,

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Speaker 1: each of these acts is considered harassment. I was looking

314
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:28,920
Speaker 1: up to try to figure out what is the distinction

315
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Speaker 1: between harassment and stalking, and it's really tough to find

316
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,640
Speaker 1: an obvious distinction. But from what I could get, harassment

317
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,600
Speaker 1: are the individual acts that people do when they're stalking,

318
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Speaker 1: and stalking is a pattern of harassment frequently escalates over time. Yeah,

319
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Speaker 1: and it also obviously blurs lines with domestic violence, like

320
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Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, and I think you can you can

321
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Speaker 1: even say it as a form of domestic violence. Um,

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Speaker 1: depending on you know the person at all, right, then

323
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,200
Speaker 1: it doesn't count. Yeah, there's a lot of categories of stalking.

324
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Speaker 1: We'll get into him in a second, but um, domestic

325
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 1: violence is definitely one of the cradles that stalking is

326
00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,520
Speaker 1: born from. Yeah, And one of the really sad things

327
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,480
Speaker 1: about it is there's a a lot of times it

328
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Speaker 1: it just there's no possible uh good result, Like oftentimes

329
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Speaker 1: a start a stalker might stop but then start back up,

330
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Speaker 1: like too often the end result is like someone's death

331
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Speaker 1: or a physical attack. It can be or there's just

332
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Speaker 1: no closure resolution, right, Like even if the stalker stops,

333
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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that the victim is like, oh good,

334
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,280
Speaker 1: I can have my life back. I don't worry about

335
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,560
Speaker 1: that guy anymore. Like that that the trust, the security,

336
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,359
Speaker 1: all of those things that that most of us just

337
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,760
Speaker 1: take for granted on a daily basis have been lost

338
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,960
Speaker 1: and they're not just immediately regained, because it's like you said,

339
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,080
Speaker 1: with stalkers, the behavior can just be discontinued and then

340
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:00,840
Speaker 1: it can start back up, get out of the blue,

341
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,320
Speaker 1: and so you never know when they're going to pop

342
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,040
Speaker 1: back by, or it probably freaks you out even more

343
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:10,400
Speaker 1: when they stop communicating, because what are they doing? Right? Yeah,

344
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 1: and even if they get even if your stalker gets

345
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,520
Speaker 1: thrown in prison or gets hit by a bus, like

346
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,840
Speaker 1: there can be irreparable psychological damage done to you. You

347
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,960
Speaker 1: may never be able to trust another man or woman again,

348
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,359
Speaker 1: and and have a hard time finding a love relationship

349
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,680
Speaker 1: that you can trust, you know. And this happens so

350
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,920
Speaker 1: much more to women. And it's not I think these

351
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 1: statistics you can kind of just flush down the john

352
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,879
Speaker 1: because so many of it, so much of it goes unreported,

353
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:42,560
Speaker 1: and so much of it is stuff that women have

354
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Speaker 1: just dealt with since you know, the beginning of time,

355
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Speaker 1: Like the guy who's a little too handy or a

356
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,320
Speaker 1: little too creepy, or a little too forward, or doesn't

357
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,480
Speaker 1: take Noah on a you know, ask me out for

358
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,199
Speaker 1: a date, like Grandpa showed up every day. You know.

359
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,440
Speaker 1: It's just it's just sad. I mean, I think things

360
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 1: are starting to change. But um, as far as stats go,

361
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,480
Speaker 1: it's hard to even take those seriously sometimes, and before

362
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,159
Speaker 1: these incidences in the early nineties, it was hard to

363
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,959
Speaker 1: even get cops sometimes to investigate or like either they

364
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,199
Speaker 1: didn't have power, they didn't take it seriously. UM in

365
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:27,320
Speaker 1: Violence Against Women Act really broadened um well like training, advocacy, counseling,

366
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,679
Speaker 1: but really like law enforcement, giving them broader powers to

367
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 1: investigate and arrest um was a big deal, and Joe

368
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 1: Biden was actually one of the the champions and big

369
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:42,120
Speaker 1: supporters of and drafting that violence. Yeah. Yeah, So part

370
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Speaker 1: of our national shame from the shutdown is that that

371
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 1: law was allowed to expire in the um Stalking Awareness Month,

372
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 1: which is January. Yeah, everything about that sucked. Yeah, but

373
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Speaker 1: it has been signed immediately like after Like that was

374
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Speaker 1: one of the first things that happened was they they

375
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 1: re up to that Act as soon as the government

376
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 1: went back to work, which I mean, it is a

377
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,199
Speaker 1: big deal that there is. I mean, that's a larger

378
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 1: Umbrella Act, but it does include all sorts of funding

379
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,640
Speaker 1: for stalking support and resources. And as we'll see, if

380
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 1: you're being stalked, there's a lot of places for you

381
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 1: to turn, but those places need to get federal funding

382
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 1: because they're usually pretty small nonprofits that can't float themselves. Yeah.

383
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 1: Two thousand eighteen, you want to talk about another feel

384
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 1: good act, the Pause act Um, which had you know this,

385
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 1: it wasn't just about this, but under that Umbrella act

386
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:40,879
Speaker 1: Um it included threats to your pets, because that's a

387
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 1: big one. People. A lot of times part of the

388
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 1: pattern of stalking is you know, you come home and

389
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,439
Speaker 1: you find your animal dead, fatal attraction, that bunny got boiled.

390
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 1: UM and not only protecting the pets, but UM grants

391
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 1: and funding for shelters to allow you to bring your pet,

392
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 1: because that's some people rightfully won't leave their pets behind.

393
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's a decision you shouldn't have to make.

394
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: But you like, I can't go to that that home

395
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: that can protect me because they won't take my dog.

396
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,640
Speaker 1: Right And it's not just with UM, with people who

397
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 1: are being stalked. Homeless shelters have the same problems too.

398
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 1: There's there's very few homeless shelters that have accommodations for

399
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 1: pets as well. UM. So one of the other, UH,

400
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 1: one of the other big laws came in that Clinton

401
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 1: signed in UM which basically made stalking a federal crime.

402
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 1: It extended UM protection like UM restraining orders. Basically they

403
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 1: enjoyed nationwide protection, like no matter where you were, if

404
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 1: you had a restraining order, it was good across the

405
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: United States. UM. If you went to stalk somebody across

406
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 1: state lines, it was now a federal crime and the

407
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 1: FBI was on you. If you use the mail to

408
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: stalk somebody just sending lighters. It was now a federal crime.

409
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: So it became a big deal. And we're talking like seriously, um,

410
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: nineteen nine, Rebecca Schaeffer was kind of when it really started.

411
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: By ninety four, Um, California had the first law. Six

412
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 1: the Feds had a law, and I believe um, within

413
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 1: a couple of years after that, every state in the

414
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: Union had a law. So no, I'm sorry, California had

415
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: a law that same year in nine and by every

416
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 1: state in America had anti stalking law. It happened like

417
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: that fast. Yeah, And in nine nine the l a

418
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: p D actually started the Threaten Management Unit, which was

419
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: a big deal because now you have an actual unit

420
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: of dedicated officers that will study behavior and trying to

421
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 1: determine risk and things like that, whereas before it was

422
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,360
Speaker 1: just like yeah, like we'll get to it. Yeah, we'll

423
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: send We'll send a couple of our heavy hitter cops

424
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: over to to tell them to leave you alone. Send over,

425
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,439
Speaker 1: Russell Crowe remember, like of an a job that's a

426
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 1: great character, so that I advocate for Vendetta's and like

427
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 1: extra judicial I think, like beating down. But you said

428
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 1: it's a great character. It was pretty great in that

429
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 1: movie when he would stick up for the abused women

430
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 1: and go beat down those jerks. Um, there's a good character.

431
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: I agree, So, Chuck, we kind of we kind of

432
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 1: kind of defined um stalking here there, but let's talk

433
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 1: about like what some of the behaviors of that stalkers have.

434
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 1: Like there are there are some set things that just

435
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 1: about any stalker will engage in that it's basically a

436
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 1: pattern of stalking behavior, which is really surprising because when

437
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 1: we talk about stalker psychology and a little bit, you'll

438
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,959
Speaker 1: see there's a lot of different people and a lot

439
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 1: of different personality types that engage in stalking, but they

440
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: all kind of tend to do the same stuff. And

441
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: one of the first things that they'll do is just

442
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,959
Speaker 1: show up where you are. Yeah, showing up now obvious

443
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: slee um calling and texting, like texting is a big one, um,

444
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: and social media harassment and stuff like that. But I

445
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 1: mean that falls, I guess under cyberstalking. It does, so

446
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: cyberstalking kind of deserves its own episode, but it so

447
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: it's its own thing where you might just be targeted

448
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 1: by someone you've never met before and just found you

449
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: on the internet, and they're using the internet exclusively to

450
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 1: stalk you and harass you and maybe even extort you.

451
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: That's cyberstalking. But also using email or um, you know,

452
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: location tracking or spyware to stalk under the traditional definition,

453
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: that's also technically cyberstalking. It's like two things. Yeah, it's

454
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: scary though with all those personal things that people have

455
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: online now, it's certainly not like the old days. People

456
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,959
Speaker 1: can see so much about your life. Um, even if

457
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: you think you've protected yourself in that way. Yeah, we'll

458
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: do a whole episode on cyberstalking. Okay, so they're showing up.

459
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,400
Speaker 1: There's um non consensual communication. You kind of hit on emails, texts,

460
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 1: letters that can be UM and apparently a lot of

461
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: stalkers will communicate in ways that they think is totally

462
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: obvious to their victim, but their victim has no idea

463
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: what they're saying. Like some examples I saw in real life,

464
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 1: or like fingernail clippings, a stack of Texas monthly magazines,

465
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 1: a rat, a dead rat wrapped in cell What did

466
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: that stack of magazines? Had no idea what that meant.

467
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: It was like it was like a message. No one

468
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: knows what it meant except for the stalker is the

469
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: only person that made sense to But the stalker felt

470
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: like they were communicating in their opecial stack of magazines. Yeah,

471
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: or left him outside of their house, gotcha, gotcha. Um.

472
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: Obviously you don't even have to, like like if you

473
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 1: there could be a coworker that you see every day

474
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: in the office and they can stalk you at work

475
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 1: even though they're also supposed to be in the same

476
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 1: office as you. Like the line is very fine. They

477
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: can someone can stop by your desk too much and

478
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: pay you too many compliments. Uh. Again, that overlaps with

479
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 1: harassment too. But like if you go to your bosses

480
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: and you're like, hey, I want to be in a

481
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: different part of the building, because this guy's really giving

482
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: me the creeps, then he starts showing up over there

483
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: every day. Like that's stalking, right absolutely, you know. Um.

484
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 1: There's also threatening family members, friends, anybody that the person

485
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: cares about, pets, making threats, whether explicit or otherwise. Um,

486
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: And all of these combined. They can be separate. They

487
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: can be um. They can be repeating the same one

488
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: over and over again. They can be a random assortment.

489
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 1: There's also very frequently like trespassing, breaking into your house,

490
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: breaking into your car, um, just basically getting into your stuff,

491
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: and then sometimes making it so like you can't tell

492
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: how they got in there, but you just know they

493
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: were there. Like I read one account of a woman

494
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: who was being stalked, and like she went and unlocked

495
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: her car and there was a rose on the seat,

496
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,239
Speaker 1: like the passenger seat, and she's like, how did this

497
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: even get in here? She had no idea how the

498
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: guy got in there, but he got in there. So

499
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: just just knowing that this person is watching you, could

500
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: could show up wherever you are um and can get

501
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: to you. Is all of these things that combine that

502
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: makes stalking so insidious. Yeah, and it's and like the

503
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: effect goes beyond just psychological harm, of which that's obviously

504
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: the worst part of it. But like financially, you can

505
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: you can have missed work and lost wages and you

506
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: might have to move, uh, Like people have picked up

507
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: and moved house at great loss, changed jobs, changed jobs

508
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: at you know, salary loss, Like it has like a

509
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: real financial impact as well. Yeah, and you were saying,

510
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: like how technology enables people to stalk so so much

511
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: more easily now, Um, that's a big one. Like if

512
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: you especially if you m we're already if you had

513
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: a relationship with your stalker previously, um, and they had

514
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: access to your computer or your phone. Most stalking advocate

515
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: groups say, if you can afford it, get a new computer,

516
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 1: get a new phone, because those are compromised, and that's

517
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: that's too expensive for a lot of people. So there's

518
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: some tricks and stuff you can deal with or work

519
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: with if you can't replace it, which we'll get to.

520
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: It's hard to research this without feeling a sense of

521
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: unease for sure, you know, and just the injustice of it,

522
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: like like considered you just were nothing but but passingly

523
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: friendly to a stranger and all of a sudden they're

524
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: doing all of this to you and disrupting your life

525
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: like this and robbing you of your security and you

526
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: have no idea what they're going to do next. That's

527
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: about as unfair as it gets. Yeah, and uh, I

528
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: think we'll probably take a break now, but and come

529
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: back and talk about the different types. But you know,

530
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: one of the types specifically is like the photo matt guy,

531
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: or you know, the casual acquaintance, the bank teller or

532
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 1: or you're the bank customer, and the bank teller is

533
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: the victim. Like these these short little communications that someone

534
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: who uh has mental illness maybe and is prone to this,

535
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: you get a too nice of a have a great

536
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: day and a smile and yeah, and that sends them

537
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: down the road. Scary man, because you don't want to

538
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: like stop being friendly to people, or should we all?

539
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: I think we should. It's the only way to protect ourselves.

540
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: All Right, we're gonna take a break and we're gonna

541
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: talk more specifically about the different types um of stalkers

542
00:31:36,360 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: right after this, So Chuck, remember we said like California

543
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: was like the first state to really take this seriously. Well,

544
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: l A was the first city to take it seriously

545
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: because at first people thought, oh my god, celebrities are

546
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: in trouble. And now that we've done more research, we

547
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: know like, actually celebrities are the least stocked group and

548
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: they're actually the probably the safest of all the stocked groups.

549
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: But initially l A really went a whole hog on

550
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: studying stalking and that's where we got some of our

551
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: earliest data and understanding of the stalking mentality. They created

552
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: the Threat Management Unit with some forensic psychiatrists and some

553
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: security guys, and they came up with basically some early

554
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: stalker profiles, And one of the first things they figured

555
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: out is you can roughly categorize stalkers into three different

556
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: pigeon holes. Basically, all right is the first one arato mania? Yes, right,

557
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: which is uh. If you just sound that word out,

558
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: you probably have a pretty good idea what that means, um,

559
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: and that is uh. That is someone who feels like

560
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: are those the ones who feel like they're in love?

561
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: Those are the with the person. Those are the ones

562
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,959
Speaker 1: who who feel like they're in love but also that

563
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: the other person loves them, right, Like Letterman's stalker was

564
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: an erotomaniac, a person with a rotomania, but she also

565
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: was someone with schizophrenia. Right, Yeah, there's all these are

566
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: co morbid. I guess there's a lot of overlap with

567
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: mental illness. But from what I've seen, um, depending on

568
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: the type of stalking you're engaged in. When when an

569
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: actual diagnosable mental illness comes into play, the stalking kind

570
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: of takes a back seat to that diagnosable mental illness.

571
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: It's it's like it's it's a byproduct of it or

572
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: a symptom of the mental illness, rather than the stalking

573
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: being the main part, you know what I mean. Yeah, Like,

574
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: if she didn't have schizophrenia, she probably wouldn't have been

575
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: stalking Letterman exactly. But it's it's characterized by a deep,

576
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: profound illusion that that the stalker and the celebrity victim

577
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: who has no idea that the stalker exists, at least

578
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: at first, are are basically bound souls, that they have

579
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: their soul mates. It's rarely sexual, very rarely sexual. It's

580
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: sometimes it's not even necessarily romantic, but it's so hyper

581
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 1: romantic it it transcends romance. It's just complete and utter

582
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: delusional obsession. That's erato mania. Yeah, and this is the

583
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: one that I mentioned early on, which I think very

584
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: interestingly has an inverse proportion of danger. So the more

585
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 1: distant or unattainable the relationship, like this woman and David Letterman,

586
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: or really any any of the celebrity cases, um, the

587
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: less likely they are to actually injure the victim, and

588
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: the less likely they are to ever even meet them

589
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: face to face. Right. It's usually like in Letterman's case,

590
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 1: you know, like I don't think he ever met her

591
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: face to face in an incident. No, but I mean, like,

592
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,479
Speaker 1: I'm sure she would have liked to have him face

593
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: to face, but um, like her, his in her case

594
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: is very much an outlier. Although because of the medium,

595
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: because it's celebrities, we think, like that's very common. That

596
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: is extremely rare, first of all, in a rodomania's stalking

597
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: situation with the celebrity, but one where the person actually

598
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: tries to physically get in touch with the victim, that's

599
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: pretty rare. Yeah. Yeah, so a rodomania is one. And

600
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: that's also the that's the smallest group from what I understand, Yeah,

601
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: but the most probably press Grabby Yeah, and movie Mackey Yeah,

602
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: movie Mackey. Um, like De Narro's got It cornered. Love obsessional, Yeah,

603
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: that's another one. Uh, And that is one that I

604
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: was talking about with Like, could be a fleeting acquaintance,

605
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: could be a co worker, um yeah, those are like

606
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 1: two types. Yeah, Like it's either someone like you work

607
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: with every day, or it could be the bank teller

608
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 1: right or again and you could be the bank I

609
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: saw that the healthcare worker UM is very frequently the

610
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: victim of love love obsessional stalking because the UM, like

611
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: the experience of being in the hospital or whatever and

612
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: having somebody, some stranger take care of you. It is

613
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: they're healing you. So they're very frequently a target of that,

614
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: but it can be something like a grocery store clerk

615
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: or a bank teller or something like that, anybody, Um,

616
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 1: just this the most fleeting casual acquaintance ship can turn

617
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: into a full blown stalk, and in that case, the

618
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 1: person who is doing the stalking is aware that the

619
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: other person isn't in love with them yet, but has

620
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: seen basically too many rom coms and believes that that

621
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 1: if they diligently pursue this person and show up at

622
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: their work and send them all these unwanted gifts, that

623
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: that the person will eventually their heart will melt as

624
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 1: they see how wonderful they are, and um, they will

625
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: be together forever. The problem is, first of all, it's obnoxious, annoying, well,

626
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: it's it's also a real like narcissistic personality disorder totally,

627
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 1: but it can also once once you reach people have

628
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: a breaking point, and if you become obsessed with somebody

629
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: and it finally becomes clear to you that they're not

630
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 1: going to reciprocate you, already feel like you're entitled to

631
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 1: their attention, to their love, and now they're they're withholding

632
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: it from you, So that might turn into rage, which

633
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: is extremely dangerous in a stalking situation. And that's almost

634
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: every movie the way it goes down. Yeah, it wasn't

635
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 1: there one with like Marky Mark or Donnie Fear Market. Yeah,

636
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: Fear Fear with Reese Witherspoon, Markey Marker, Donny Mark. You

637
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: know the Marks? Did you know Reese Witherspoon listens to

638
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 1: Did I know that? I don't know. I read it somewhere. Yeah,

639
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: I can't remember. She listens in the car. She said

640
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:58,399
Speaker 1: in some magazine art. Well, we think you're great. Yes,

641
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,439
Speaker 1: come on movie crush and come on into the world.

642
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: You could work her in there somehow. I think her

643
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 1: son also, she said, her son makes like music or whatever.

644
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: He should make like jingles for stuff you should know.

645
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, totally play this um so uh oh. The

646
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: other interesting thing I thought about the love obsessional, uh,

647
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 1: is that it says oftentimes they are affluent and well

648
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: educated and they are high strung professionals who have no

649
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 1: personal life except for this obsession. Right. Basically, Patrick Bateman

650
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: types who are interested in a relationship, yep. But who

651
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 1: were just like, yeah, this is in this this article,

652
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 1: this is that that was kind of old, but they

653
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: were basically saying like, yeah, they we could tell when

654
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: it said, uh, they're usually like the next door type,

655
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 1: like Olivia Newton John, not like Joan Collins. And I

656
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: was like, wait, years I read a victim's handbook that

657
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 1: was written clearly by a victim who like wrote a

658
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: book on what to do if you're being stalked, and

659
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 1: it was from I think, and she had advice on

660
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: what to do if like they were blowing up your

661
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 1: page or this is dated, dated information. She's not a

662
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,879
Speaker 1: Joan Colin stype. But but they made a really good

663
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 1: point and it's still going on today that the distinction

664
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: between work and social life is so blurred because everybody

665
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: works so much that it's like, yeah, I mean the people.

666
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: You spend all your time with the people at work.

667
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 1: So if you um are already, as they put it,

668
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 1: high strung neurotic narcissist types, you may feel entitled to

669
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,720
Speaker 1: this person's affection or attention, and that so that becomes

670
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: the coworker stalking situation of love obsessional Yeah, in the

671
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 1: movie version, that's the well, let's just work late and

672
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 1: like order some Chinese in the office, and then they

673
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: have this like kind of funny exchange candles and that's

674
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 1: an Act one, and then you know, Act two is

675
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 1: all the hey, this is getting out of hand, and

676
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: then Act three is she rejects, rejects them, and then

677
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: it's it gets violent and angry. I think she'd reject

678
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,399
Speaker 1: him in act two, and then Act three is all

679
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 1: the oh god, and then the resolution. Yeah, I think

680
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: the end of the first the first plot point that

681
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: the end of act one is probably the rejection, You're right,

682
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 1: and then that would set up the act to action,

683
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: the building of the tension, and then act three is

684
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: the yeah. But something always kicks off Act three, like

685
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 1: and I guess in Cape Fear it was I think

686
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: the kickoff Tact three might have been them getting out

687
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: of town and going to Cape Fear. That's what would

688
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:31,800
Speaker 1: be my guess. It's so funny movies, you can almost

689
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: you check your watch next time you're watching a movie

690
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 1: and everything happens in thirty minute increments. Almost it's funny. Uh.

691
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 1: And then the last one, I think of the three

692
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: that we were talking about is um is this one

693
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 1: simple obsessional and this is this is the worst. I mean,

694
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: they're all bad, but most typically violent. Yeah. This is

695
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 1: like the someone who you generally had an intimate relationship

696
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: at some point and you don't want to be with

697
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: him anymore, and they harass you and stalk you, and

698
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: it seems like almost always it ends in violence. Well, no,

699
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily true, but it's at the highest risk

700
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 1: of all of the types. Like if there's some dud

701
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 1: who comes into your bank every day and has a

702
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: crush on you, he's far less likely to become violent then.

703
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: And but that's not a former intimate, is it. No,

704
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. That's a different category. The former

705
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 1: intimate is more likely to perpetrate violence, But that doesn't

706
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 1: mean that every time it's going to resolve in violence.

707
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: That granted, though. One of the first tips I've seen

708
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 1: for um stalking, like advocacy groups like their their lists

709
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: of stuff you should be doing, one of the first

710
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: ones is take yourself seriously, trust your gut than your instincts.

711
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: Very frequently family and friends will just kind of blow

712
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 1: off this all these signs. If you feel insecurely nervous

713
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 1: about it. Go with that. But that is that you

714
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,760
Speaker 1: should take this seriously because it can turn into something

715
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 1: dangerous for you, and you should treat it that way

716
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 1: and take it seriously. Yeah, because I'll say this, if

717
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,439
Speaker 1: let's say you me quote and not you, let's say

718
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: one quote unquote overreacts. Um, fine, that's okay, sure overreact

719
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,800
Speaker 1: do it, because if this person is not a stalker,

720
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 1: it would just be just like, I'm really sorry. Things

721
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 1: obviously you got out of hand and you'll never hear

722
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: from me again. Um. The only person that would really

723
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: get super rag about that is probably a stalker. Yeah,

724
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: that's true. You know, so air on the side of

725
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 1: caution because um, I mean, a restraining order is one

726
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 1: thing I wrote in here. They are worthless. They're not worthless.

727
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 1: They're worthless in that it doesn't stop anyone from doing anything.

728
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 1: But I think the main juice of a restraining order

729
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: is so you officially have legal precedent that person has

730
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 1: done something. You're documenting it. Although I did see I

731
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 1: read a guardian Um article about a woman who was

732
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: stalked by like an ex boyfriend from high school or

733
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: college or something, and he stalked her for nine years,

734
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: and um, I think he broke fifty six restraining orders

735
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 1: over that time. So it's like, yeah, that's and then

736
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 1: he finally got two years in prison at the end

737
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: of this nine years after the restraining I'm not sure

738
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: exactly what he finally did that landed him in prison,

739
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: but the idea that you can break fifty six restraining

740
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: orders and still not go to prison or jail is

741
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: is it's got to be extremely discouraging for the victims

742
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: of stalking. Yeah, here's the saddest stat of this whole

743
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: podcast to me is that, uh, seventies six percent of

744
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: women who are murdered by an intimate partner, we're also

745
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 1: stalked by that partner and half of them or have

746
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 1: been reported as stalker. So they they half of the

747
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 1: murdered women were reported that they were being stalked before

748
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 1: they were murdered. Yeah, so yes, you should take it

749
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 1: seriously and cops. And that's with cops taking it seriously supposedly.

750
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, So there's a So we were saying, like,

751
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 1: the um, what's what's it called, the significant not significant

752
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 1: other stalker, the simple obsessional. Yeah, the simple obsessional one

753
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 1: where like you've had a relationship with this person and

754
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,720
Speaker 1: they didn't basically take the breakup very well. You belong

755
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: to them very frequently if you are a victim of

756
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 1: domestic abuse, that will turn into that. But it that

757
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,359
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily jibe with that. It can be it can

758
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 1: also kind of just come out of what you would

759
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 1: call a bad breakup. Um, but it's still like the same,

760
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 1: roughly the same. But I think if the abuser was

761
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 1: already a domestic abuser, the chances of which of violence

762
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: are much greater. That's the group that is the greatest

763
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 1: at the greatest risk of violence. Our domestic abusers turn stalkers. Yeah,

764
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: it says of women who are murdered were murdered by

765
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: boyfriends and husbands. Yeah, that's why they always look at

766
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: the husband and the boyfriend first. I'm surprised. Thirty percent.

767
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,720
Speaker 1: That seems low even you know. Yeah, I mean that's stats,

768
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: so it's super old. But um, I bet it's somewhere

769
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 1: in that wheelhouse now, you know. Yeah, that's two different

770
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: and just real quick, it's um. You know, this is

771
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: not just an American issue. There are countries around the

772
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 1: world that have stalking um stalking laws, anti stalking laws.

773
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,399
Speaker 1: I should say, it's much easier to list ones that

774
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 1: don't have it than the ones that do, because just

775
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: in the last like couple of decades, countries have really

776
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 1: started to take this seriously, which is heartening because it says, oh, okay, good,

777
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 1: we value women, the women in our society, and we

778
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: want to them to feel protected. Um. There's some that

779
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:06,479
Speaker 1: just absolutely don't, like Cypress, Greece, Namibia, Spain, they don't

780
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,359
Speaker 1: have anti stalking laws, but for the most part, most

781
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 1: countries do, and very frequently they follow like a high

782
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 1: profile murder at the hands of a stalker. UM. Japan

783
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: started to take it very seriously since I think like

784
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: two thousand or two thousand one. Um, Great Britain's like

785
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: really well aware of its stalking problem, and they have

786
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: a really high incidence of men being stalked too. And

787
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:35,959
Speaker 1: then I read an article that France, Sweden, and Luxembourg

788
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 1: have the highest rates of stalking and I was like,

789
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,280
Speaker 1: that seems a little weird, and then the article pointed out, well,

790
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 1: these are these are also probably countries where women feel

791
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: empowered to report stalking, whereas some of these other countries

792
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: that have very like artificially low rates of stalking and

793
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:57,479
Speaker 1: the EU are probably um countries that are a little

794
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 1: more macho and where women feel like the cops are

795
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: going to just tell them to like feel flattered for

796
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: the attention, which happens actually sadly, and so are like that,

797
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: like you said originally, like the data and the stats

798
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: on stalking are are really hard to come by, but

799
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: it's it's basically a universal thing. Well, and it's hard

800
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: to come by too because not everyone can agree on

801
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 1: what behaviors even qualifies stalking. Um, there's this one interesting

802
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 1: thing that Ed put in here about incompetence. Did you

803
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 1: see that? Yeah? Yeah, not incompetence with the ce butt

804
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 1: Yeah e n T s uh. This is a category

805
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: of stalker. And this is someone who is so awkward

806
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 1: and unaware of social cues and norms that they're clumsy

807
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 1: attempts at initiating relationships feel like stalking. They might have

808
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 1: some sort of cognitive disability or something like that, or

809
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: just made not pick up on social cues and not

810
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 1: realize that you don't stopped by and compliment the ladies

811
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: dress every day right, like don't do it right? And

812
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: the guy's like, what, I'm just being nice? Sure, or

813
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 1: it might be like, uh, you know, or he may

814
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 1: be a legit stalker. Sure, but I think in that

815
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: case he wouldn't be an incompetent. He would be a stalker.

816
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,479
Speaker 1: Well right, but that's what I'm saying. The guy who's

817
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 1: an incompetent is just like, oh, and then he never

818
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,320
Speaker 1: speaks to her again. But that's so that's that seems

819
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,919
Speaker 1: to be another whole, the other class of stalker. There's

820
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 1: the incompetent, there's the aratomaniac, there's a love obsessional. And

821
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: then there's even like subtypes to those larger types, like

822
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 1: there's the um scorned lover, there's UM, the the the

823
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: guy who UM is experiencing rage because he's not getting

824
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: his affection reciprocated. There's all these different little sub types,

825
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 1: and all of them, to one degree or another, have

826
00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 1: some sort of mental illness associated with them. It's not

827
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 1: necessarily like diagnosable mental illness. And that's what makes stalking

828
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 1: so weird, is that a lot of stalkers are otherwise

829
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: utterly saying sure, or narcissism or something like that. But

830
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:20,439
Speaker 1: you can diagnose that um, and yes you maybe we'll

831
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 1: we'll study them enough in the future that will be like, Oh, well,

832
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: when you put this this degree of narcissism with this

833
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 1: degree of sociopathy together and UM, mix in a little

834
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 1: bit of of an overly critical mother, you've got a

835
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 1: stalker situation. Right. But but socially speaking, especially UM, coworker

836
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: love obsessionals and um, the simple obsessional ones, those very

837
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,879
Speaker 1: frequently seem to be people who have become obsessed with

838
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,760
Speaker 1: somebody and have become so obsessed with that person they've

839
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:59,720
Speaker 1: lost their their marbles basically in that in that respect,

840
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 1: in every other respect, they can kind of keep their

841
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,399
Speaker 1: life together until the obsession leads them down the path

842
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 1: to where they're full time stalking and they like will

843
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:11,360
Speaker 1: lose their job or whatever something. So we should probably

844
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: give a few tips, um before we go in case

845
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 1: you are being stalked, First and foremost that I've seen

846
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: is number one, take it seriously. But number two, if

847
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 1: you believe you're being stalked, or you feel like you're

848
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:26,800
Speaker 1: being stalked, like go find a local stalking advocacy group.

849
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: They have them all over the place and they are

850
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 1: experts at what you need to do things like, Um,

851
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: if you are being stalked by a former intimate. Um,

852
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: you should assume that your computer and your phone are

853
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 1: being spy or spying on you. Um, you want to

854
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: change the passwords to your accounts, don't use your computer,

855
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 1: don't use your phone, Go use a computer at a

856
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: church or a library, and then change your past codes

857
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 1: and then don't log in on your phone or computer

858
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 1: until you can get a new one. From the get go,

859
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,319
Speaker 1: you should log all activity, just say you can. When

860
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 1: you go to the cops, they're not like, oh, well,

861
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,359
Speaker 1: this guy just came by your house once, Like let's

862
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 1: just see where this heads. You can hand over piece

863
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 1: of paper that says that these seventeen things happened in

864
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 1: the past four days. Uh, so you just have a

865
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 1: good log of activity. You also want to engage in

866
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 1: what's called like safety planning, where you, um, you don't

867
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 1: just think about what the socker just did. You have

868
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:26,839
Speaker 1: to think about what your stocker is going to do.

869
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: And that really kind of gets to the heart of

870
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 1: how again unfair this is? Well, yeah, because then all

871
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,320
Speaker 1: of a sudden you're obsessed with trying to figure out, yeah,

872
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 1: something that's going to happen in the future or may

873
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 1: not happen in the future. That's like how they bruin

874
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 1: your life, right Exactly. You're constantly thinking about them and

875
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 1: where they're going to show up or whatever. But you

876
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 1: want to um tell people at your school, at work, um,

877
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 1: at at at home, like here's a picture of this person.

878
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 1: If they show up, call the police. Do not give

879
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: out personal information to anybody because again they might be pretexting. Um.

880
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 1: There's all sorts of stuff that you wouldn't normally think

881
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 1: of to where if you're being stalk go find a

882
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:10,280
Speaker 1: group that that helps people like this. They would probably

883
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: say get off social media. Now, yeah, that's I think

884
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: that's another one. But also I think it has an

885
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 1: effect where like not only do you get off social media,

886
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: you like stop going out because you're afraid they're going

887
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:23,479
Speaker 1: to show up. You stop, so you like you lose

888
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 1: contact with friends, you lose your life, you know. So

889
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: the group that I found that I thought was pretty great,

890
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:33,320
Speaker 1: it's called SPARK s p a r C. Stalking Prevention

891
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,439
Speaker 1: Awareness and Resource Center. They have a lot of good

892
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 1: like starter tips, but they'll tell you, just like I did,

893
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 1: go find a local group to help you like come

894
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 1: up with a safety plan to be safe. Yeah, because

895
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 1: the one thing that won't happen there is they won't

896
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 1: disregard your fears and not take you seriously. And sometimes,

897
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 1: especially in those early moments, that's exactly what you need

898
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 1: is some support and someone to say like, you're not crazy, Uh,

899
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 1: this might actually be happening to you, and then um

900
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 1: to end on kind of a hopeful note, as distasteful

901
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:13,399
Speaker 1: as it sounds. There's a growing awareness, um that stalkers need,

902
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 1: that they're, in a weird way victims too, and that

903
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 1: they need to be treated, that they need to be

904
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 1: pulled out of there this life that they've built for

905
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 1: themselves and basically, over the course of some very intense therapy,

906
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 1: be brought back to reality and to have pointed out

907
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: to them what they're doing and just how off their

908
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:37,239
Speaker 1: views of this other person are, because very frequently stalkers

909
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 1: are found to be giving their victims tons of power

910
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: that the victim doesn't even know they have. And um,

911
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 1: and when they're reminded like, no, this person isn't doing

912
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:49,439
Speaker 1: this to your No, they're not getting what you're saying

913
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 1: or anything like that, UM, it can there. It's starting

914
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 1: to look like stalking can be treated, and that that's

915
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:59,319
Speaker 1: part and parcel with saving a victim is treating the

916
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 1: stalker to you? Yeah, sure, then the victim can have

917
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 1: resolution at some point without the stalker having to die

918
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: or spend the rest of their life in prison, you know. Yeah,

919
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 1: So that's that's kind of a growing thing, is treating

920
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 1: stalkers as well. Yeah, I could see it being something

921
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 1: that could be rehabilitated, you would hope, and then hopefully

922
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:23,800
Speaker 1: you just don't bum into one another two years later. Yeah,

923
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 1: they'd be I swear I'm feeling better. Usually don't shop here.

924
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 1: This is just I'm gonna just go right, in which

925
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: case the victim would what I don't know, back slowly

926
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 1: out of the grocery stores. Yes, and never stopped there again.

927
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: So that's it for stalking. If you're being stalked, hanging

928
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 1: there and get in touch with this let us know

929
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: how it's going. Since I said that, it's time for

930
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 1: listener now. Hey, guys, love the show just started listening

931
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 1: into my surprise, one of the first episodes I listened

932
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 1: to was about the biggest misconception in my industry, bread

933
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,320
Speaker 1: count the softness of betting. This is from a short stuff.

934
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 1: Softness of bedding comes down to the quality of the

935
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: material that's being used, not necessarily how many threads, which

936
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 1: I think we said that right. This person's just restating

937
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:13,839
Speaker 1: everything we said. Long staple cotton only makes up three

938
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 1: percent of the global cotton production, yet it's best kept.

939
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 1: It's the best option for betting. The longer threads provided

940
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: smooth surface for sleepers to enjoy. It's also more durable

941
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,359
Speaker 1: short staple cotton threads. This is what we said, isn't it.

942
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: The more popular and cheaper option are rougher and scratchier

943
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:32,239
Speaker 1: because the shorter threads are tied together throughout the weave

944
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 1: of the bedding. In order to get the softest, best

945
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 1: performing sheet, a long staple cotton, preferably one that is

946
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 1: responsibly sourced, is necessary. Anyway, I just wanted to say

947
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: what you guys already said. Thanks for thanks for being

948
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:48,720
Speaker 1: what you are. Uh, congratulations on the billion downloads guys.

949
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:51,439
Speaker 1: Oh nice, there you go. Here's to another billion. That's

950
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 1: how you get your email read And that's from Ed.

951
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: Thanks Ed. We're glad you joined us. Um, welcome to

952
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 1: the family. That was a baptism by fire right. If

953
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 1: you want to be like Ed and get baptized by

954
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 1: Reverend Josh and Reverend Chuck and Cardinal Jerry. You can

955
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 1: send us an email to Stuff Podcast at how stuff

956
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 1: works dot com. For more on this and thousands of

957
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 1: other topics, is it how stuff works dot com