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Speaker 3: Hey Daniel, do you enjoy doing housework?

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Speaker 1: There's something satisfying about it compared to the abstraction of research.

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Speaker 1: You know, you start doing dishes and then the dishes

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Speaker 1: are done.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a cost and effect, right, basic law of

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Speaker 3: the universe. If you wash dishes, they will presumably be clean.

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Speaker 1: I wish that same thing applied to physics research. You know,

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Speaker 1: you do the physics research and the mysteries are unraveled.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't know what's happened that way?

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Speaker 3: Well, there's no guarantee in science.

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Speaker 1: How about you. Are you a fan of housework?

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Speaker 3: Uh? No? And yet I'm the person who does all

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Speaker 3: the dishes in my house. Well, actually the dishwasher doesn't,

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Speaker 3: but I assist the dishwasher. I'm the assistant dishwasher.

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Speaker 1: And are you a fan of vacuuming?

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Speaker 3: I'm not a huge fan.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think my vacuum has a big fan,

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Speaker 3: but I am not a fan of vacuuming.

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Speaker 1: I agree vacuuming totally sucks.

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Speaker 4: Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm Horium, my cartoonist and the author of all ours

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Speaker 3: great big universe.

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Speaker 5: Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at

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Speaker 1: U SEE Irvine, And sometimes I feel like my head

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Speaker 1: contains a perfect vacuum.

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Speaker 3: You mean, like a perfect vacuuming machine or a perfect

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Speaker 3: lack of pressure.

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Speaker 1: You know how sometimes you reach back into your mind

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Speaker 1: for a good idea and you just find nothing. On

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Speaker 1: the other hand, you know, maybe that means you're ready

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Speaker 1: to suck in a bunch of new information.

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Speaker 3: M I thought you were saying your brain sucks.

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Speaker 1: The creative process is a mystery to me.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes you reach back there and you find gold, and

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Speaker 1: other times you are just left empty handed.

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Speaker 3: It is pretty dusty inside of my head as well.

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Speaker 3: But anyways, welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explained Universe,

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Speaker 3: a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we try to take the whole universe and

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Speaker 1: squeeze it into your brain, hoping that there's enough space

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Speaker 1: to contain all of its mysteries, all of its majesty,

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Speaker 1: all of its marvelous contents, including quantum particles, including black holes,

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Speaker 1: including neutron stars, including photons, and everything else that makes

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Speaker 1: this universe a wonderful, delicious and bizarre place to live.

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Speaker 3: That's right. It is science's job to dig down into

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Speaker 3: the dusty corners of the universe and polish off our

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Speaker 3: knowledge about how things work and why things are the

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Speaker 3: way they are.

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Speaker 1: And when scientists think about dust, we're not always just

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Speaker 1: thinking it as an annoyance, something to get rid of. Instead,

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Speaker 1: we want to take the universe apart into its smallest pieces,

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Speaker 1: and so dust provides a very useful clue. What is

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Speaker 1: dust made out of? What happens when we break dust

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Speaker 1: open into smaller bits? Why is the universe so dusty? Anyway?

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Speaker 3: So we are actually technically all made out of star dust, right,

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Speaker 3: isn't that what the famous saying from Carl Sagan?

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Speaker 1: That is the famous saying, And you know it's mostly true.

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Speaker 1: All the heavier elements we were made of, at least

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Speaker 1: were composed in the hearts of stars out there, fusing

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Speaker 1: together the primordial hydrogen and helium created during the Big Bang.

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Speaker 1: But since a large part of our bodies are made

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Speaker 1: of hydrogen, part of us are actually Big Bang dust,

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Speaker 1: not just star dust.

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Speaker 3: I guess maybe since atoms are all made of the

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Speaker 3: same things technically, like, it's just more and more dust,

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Speaker 3: kind of compounded dust that we're made out.

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Speaker 1: Of Jorges dusty theory of the universe.

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Speaker 3: Now, does that mean that bunnies are also made out

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Speaker 3: of dust bunny?

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Speaker 1: Or are dust bunnies made out of bunnies?

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Speaker 3: How about people named dusty? Would they also be made

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Speaker 3: out of star dust?

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Speaker 1: Star dust and bang dust? And while it's fun to

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Speaker 1: make these jokes, it's also really a fascinating mystery, like

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Speaker 1: what is all of this stuff? What is its fundamental nature?

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Speaker 1: Deep down? And that question is sitting inside a deeper, broader,

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Speaker 1: maybe even emptier question, which is like, what is all

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Speaker 1: of this stuff sitting in? What happens to the universe

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Speaker 1: if you get rid of all the dust, you finally

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Speaker 1: suck it all away and reveal the nothingness? What is

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Speaker 1: all of that nothingness?

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Speaker 3: That's right? What is nothing? Is it nothing? Or is

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Speaker 3: nothing something?

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Speaker 1: Do we have nothing to say about it? And can

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Speaker 1: we anyway spin it into a forty five minute podcast?

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Speaker 3: No, let's just create an audio vacuum right now for

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Speaker 3: forty five minutes.

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Speaker 1: Ready, go, that's actually a great analogy for today's podcast

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Speaker 1: because even in that quiet, pun free moment, there was

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Speaker 1: not nothing. There was something.

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Speaker 3: So today on the podcast will be asking the question

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Speaker 3: what is a vacuum?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 3: I imagine, Daniel, you mean like a space vacuum, not

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Speaker 3: like a household vacuum.

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Speaker 1: I do love digging into the physics of everyday objects

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Speaker 1: because it turns out there's always a surprising amount of

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Speaker 1: complicated physics that goes into like what is a mirror?

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Speaker 1: Or how does glass work? This kind of stuff is

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Speaker 1: super fun. But no, today I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: the nothingness of the universe. What happens if you use

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Speaker 1: a vacuum to suck up all this stuff? What is

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Speaker 1: that vacuum? And philosophically, what does that mean about the

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Speaker 1: nature of reality?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I guess more fundamentally, does a vacuum exist?

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Speaker 3: Is it possible to actually have nothing in the universe?

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Speaker 1: Or is it possible to have multiple different vacuums or

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Speaker 1: vacuu a.

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Speaker 3: Or maybe more a trippy is a vacuum something?

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Speaker 1: Or if a vacuum is something, maybe that's just what

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Speaker 1: we define as nothing as the most vacuum eist something.

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Speaker 3: Okay, now I'm getting nothing out of this.

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Speaker 1: I just invented a word vacuumist. Vacuumist, though it sounds

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Speaker 1: more like somebody who operates a vacuum. Maybe it's not

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Speaker 1: the best choice.

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Speaker 3: Well, that would be a vacuumer, wouldn't it be?

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Speaker 1: Not an expert in naming things?

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Speaker 3: Are here very clearly, But anyways, as usual, we were

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Speaker 3: wondering how many people out there had thought about this

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Speaker 3: fundamental question what is a vacuum and if they have

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Speaker 3: any ideas about whether it is something or nothing.

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Speaker 1: So thanks very much to everybody out there who answers

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Speaker 1: these questions for the podcast. And if you've been listening

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Speaker 1: for a while or even just a few weeks and

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Speaker 1: you'd like to throw your hat into the ring, everybody's welcome,

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Speaker 1: please write to me two questions at Danielandjorge dot com.

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Speaker 3: So think about it for a second. What do you

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Speaker 3: think a vacuum is? Here's what people have to say.

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Speaker 7: It sounds like the inside of my head when you

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Speaker 7: ask this question, But if I were to think of it,

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Speaker 7: vacuum is like a whiteboard with infinite possibilities, And when

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Speaker 7: something comes along, like a whiteboard marker, you can either

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Speaker 7: draw stuff on it, or you can just raise stuff

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Speaker 7: on it.

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Speaker 3: It's just everything.

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Speaker 8: The vacuum would be space without any stuff in it,

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Speaker 8: like no atmosphere, but I think space always has some

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Speaker 8: stuff in it, so it's not really a true vacuum.

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Speaker 8: That's really all I know.

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Speaker 7: Pretty sure the vacuum is like space with all its

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Speaker 7: quantum fields, like at its resting state.

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Speaker 6: I can guess by what it says the vacuum is

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Speaker 6: not a vacuum cleaner, but the vacuum of space. What

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Speaker 6: causes it is actually a good question. I don't know.

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Speaker 6: Maybe it's something related to a dark energy and expansion.

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Speaker 3: But probably not.

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Speaker 7: I think vacuum is the definition, the theoretical definition of

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Speaker 7: the absence of matter in a given space.

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Speaker 8: I think vacuum quite literally means emptiness or absence of stuff.

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Speaker 9: Now, if you have a bottle, you remove everything from it,

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Speaker 9: then you have a vacuum, but I think that's pretty ideal.

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Speaker 10: I don't think you can actually remove everything from a bottle.

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Speaker 9: Vacuum is the absence of matter, but I know that

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Speaker 9: it doesn't mean it's empty, and there are lots of

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Speaker 9: quantum craziness going around in what we traditionally call vacuum.

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Speaker 9: So I'm looking forward for you guys to explain it all.

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Speaker 3: Right, a lot of interesting answers here. Someone got kind

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Speaker 3: of technical talking about fields and resting states, the absence

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Speaker 3: of matter.

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Speaker 1: Lots of really cool answers here that explore really the

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Speaker 1: wide spectrum of possibilities for what nothing is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess you could define it in several ways, right,

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Speaker 3: like absence of matter or absence of energy, or absence

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Speaker 3: of quantum field maybe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And we will tear all of that apart on

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Speaker 1: the podcast today.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's dig into it, Daniel. How does physicists define

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Speaker 3: what a vacuum is?

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Speaker 1: So, the definition of a vacuum from the point of

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Speaker 1: view and especially quantum field theory, is space with no

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Speaker 1: particles in it. Essentially space as empty as possible from energy.

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Speaker 1: If you can stuck all the energy out, including the matter,

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Speaker 1: and relax space down to its lowest energy state, that's

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Speaker 1: what we consider a vacuum.

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Speaker 3: Now, how is it different than the concept of space itself, Like,

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Speaker 3: is space the vacuum or can space be a vacuum?

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Speaker 1: Well, there's the difference between space and sort of empty space.

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Speaker 1: Space itself doesn't have to be a vacuum like at

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Speaker 1: the heart of the Sun, there's space. Right. There's all

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Speaker 1: sorts of particles bouncing around, whizzing around, incredible density, very

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Speaker 1: high temperature, lots of matter, lots of energy. All of

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Speaker 1: that sits within space. Right, The Sun is in space.

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Speaker 1: Even the heart of the Sun has space within it.

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Speaker 1: It's not empty space. It's very high energy, very dense space.

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Speaker 1: As you move away from the Sun, of course, that

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Speaker 1: space gets lower and lower energy, fewer particles. Everywhere in

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Speaker 1: the universe we think has space in it.

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Speaker 3: You mean everywhere in space has space in it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. As soon as you use the word where, you're

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Speaker 1: assuming a location, and location requires space. You can't really

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Speaker 1: have locations without space. Space represents the relationships between points, right,

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Speaker 1: And that's really what space is.

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Speaker 3: I guess. Can you have the universe without space or

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Speaker 3: space without the universe?

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Speaker 1: You might be able to have the universe without space

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Speaker 1: because we don't fundamentally know what space itself is. We

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Speaker 1: don't know if it's a necessary, fundamental part of the universe,

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Speaker 1: meaning that like it has to exist, or if it's

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Speaker 1: an emergent property of something deeper, you know, something that

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Speaker 1: just sort of gets woven together out of the fundamental

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Speaker 1: bits of the universe that might not require space. If

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Speaker 1: you're not familiar with the concept of like fundamental versus emergent,

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Speaker 1: fundamental just means it's required, it's essential, whereas emergent means

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Speaker 1: it's not. That sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't.

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Speaker 1: Like ice cream and pies, we think are emergent properties

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Speaker 1: or something the universe can do, they can't exist. But

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Speaker 1: it's possible to have a universe without ice cream and pause.

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Speaker 1: So we think it might be possible to have a

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Speaker 1: universe without space, though that's not something we understand. There

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Speaker 1: are various theories out there, but that's an open question

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Speaker 1: in physics. So far, we're operating under the assumption that

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Speaker 1: space is essential for the universe.

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't know about physics, but ice cream is

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Speaker 3: pretty essential to my life. I mean, a universe without

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Speaker 3: ice cream it's not a universe I want to live in.

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Speaker 1: And yet the vast majority of the history of the

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Speaker 1: universe had exactly zero ice cream in it, unless, of course,

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Speaker 1: there are ancient alien civilizations who also enjoyed cold custards.

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Speaker 3: We don't know. So you're saying you don't know if

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Speaker 3: aliens have ice cream or not. It's still an open question.

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Speaker 1: I can make no definitive statement about alien ice cream

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Speaker 1: that is exactly true.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Also, I think in a vacuum, no one can

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Speaker 3: hear you ice cream. You're like, I don't even know

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Speaker 3: where to go with that joke.

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Speaker 1: That was the perfect joke. There's no possible response to it.

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Speaker 1: A vacuum is the only possible response to that joke.

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Speaker 3: That's right. It's a micdrop moment.

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Speaker 1: Boom, Exactly, I just dropped my ice cream over here.

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Speaker 1: It's an ice cream drop moment.

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Speaker 3: Put anaze back to our discussion. So you're saying a

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Speaker 3: vacuum is space with no matter in it, no particles

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Speaker 3: in it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right. Whereas the minimum energy which includes particles. Right,

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Speaker 1: if you're talking about what space is, space is fundamentally

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Speaker 1: something we don't understand, but it has inside of it

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Speaker 1: the possibility to contain all sorts of energy and matter.

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Speaker 1: You can have protons in space, you can have photons

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Speaker 1: in space. Photons are not technically matter, they fall into

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Speaker 1: the radiation category. Right, So you can all sorts of

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Speaker 1: different kinds of energy inside of space, and we have

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Speaker 1: a huge variety of energy density in space right around

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Speaker 1: us on Earth is an incredible number of particles. You

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Speaker 1: take a cubic meter of air just in front of

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Speaker 1: you here on Earth, and there's like ten to the

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Speaker 1: twenty five mongules in that cubic meter of air swarming

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Speaker 1: with particles.

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Speaker 3: Well, I guess you know, for me traditional Newtonian kind

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Speaker 3: of high school physics, or you know, kind of as

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Speaker 3: we grow up kind of way. A particle are bits

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Speaker 3: of stuff that can fly around or float around, and

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Speaker 3: so it's kind of easy to imagine just a chunk

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Speaker 3: of space, a Cuba space with no little bits in it. Right,

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Speaker 3: that would be a vacuum in a traditional sense.

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Speaker 1: In a traditional sense, depending on whether you're including radiation also, right,

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Speaker 1: To really get a vacuum, you want to minimize the

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Speaker 1: overall energy, not just the total matter. So yeah, you

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Speaker 1: want to apply your vacuum and suck out all the bits,

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Speaker 1: but then you also want to prevent photons and other

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Speaker 1: kinds of non matter radiation from entering that cube of

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Speaker 1: space to get the best of vacuum you can get.

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Speaker 3: Well, radiation is also particles, right, Like a photon is

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Speaker 3: a particle.

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Speaker 1: A photon is a particle, but it's not matter in

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Speaker 1: the same sense. These are like silly overlapping definitions. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you suck out all the particles, that would include photons.

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Speaker 1: So yes, that would be all the radiation.

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Speaker 3: I guess it's complicated because now we know that a

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Speaker 3: particle is really just like a little blip in a

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Speaker 3: quantum field. Right.

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Speaker 1: So there are sort of two different philosophical pictures about

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Speaker 1: how this all works, and one that we talk about

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Speaker 1: in the podcast a lot is what you just described,

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Speaker 1: which is to imagine particles themselves as emergent properties. They're

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Speaker 1: not fundamental things in the universe. They're just wiggles in

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Speaker 1: these fields that fill all of space. And in that picture,

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Speaker 1: fields are the most fundamental thing that when you have space,

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Speaker 1: it contains these fields, and these fields are like places

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Speaker 1: that energy can be. They're like, you know, how you

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Speaker 1: can stack energy up and if you wiggle them in

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Speaker 1: just the right way, then we call that a particle.

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Speaker 1: So that's sort of one picture of the structure of space, time,

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Speaker 1: and matter. There's another picture which says fields are nonsense.

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Speaker 1: Really everything is made of particles, and the way particles

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Speaker 1: communicate with each other and exchange momentum and stuff is

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Speaker 1: by exchanging other particles. So the sort of the fields picture,

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Speaker 1: which I think is more popus maybe more intuitive, But

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Speaker 1: there is also this other picture that says that particles

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Speaker 1: are the most fundamental thing in fields are nonsense, because remember,

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Speaker 1: we never actually see fields themselves. Fields are sort of

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Speaker 1: a unobserved story. We tell ourselves to explain what we

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Speaker 1: do see in the universe, but we never actually see them.

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Speaker 1: We only see their effect on particles.

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Speaker 3: Fields are sort of like the potential for particles to happen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're sort of like the parking lot into which

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Speaker 1: you can put cars, right, but again, we can't ever

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Speaker 1: see them directly, like even electric field which don't seem

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Speaker 1: controversial as a topic, like do electric fields exist? Well,

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Speaker 1: how do you see an electric field? You put an

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Speaker 1: electron in it and you see it move. What you're

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Speaker 1: really seeing is the electron moving, not the field itself,

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Speaker 1: So it's sort of a little bit indirect.

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Speaker 3: Well, maybe we're getting a little bit ahead of ourselves.

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Speaker 3: I think what you're saying is that the idea that

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Speaker 3: a vacuum is just a chunk of space without particles

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Speaker 3: in it is still our energy is still pretty good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a pretty good concept of a vacuum is

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Speaker 1: though it's surprisingly rare in the universe and hard to achieve.

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Speaker 3: Well, I guess maybe the first question or listeners might

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Speaker 3: have is is space out there really a vacuum.

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Speaker 1: It's hard for me to say that anywhere in the

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Speaker 1: universe is actually a true vacuum. If you go like

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Speaker 1: near the surface of the Earth where space officially starts,

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Speaker 1: which is like one hundred kilometers above the surface of

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Speaker 1: the Earth, although the United States calls you an astronaut,

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Speaker 1: if you've been above eighty kilometers, then that's where space

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Speaker 1: officially starts. But there's a lot of stuff out there still.

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Speaker 1: You know, the Earth's atmosphere doesn't end. It's not like

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Speaker 1: there's a pane of glass there that's holding the atmosphere

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Speaker 1: and it should drifts off gradually. So there's still a

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Speaker 1: lot of atmosphere up there. And if you fly your

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Speaker 1: satellite at that orbit, you'll be dragged by that atmosphere

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Speaker 1: and eventually you deorbit back to the Earth's surface. So

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Speaker 1: we know that there's definitely a lot of stuff out

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Speaker 1: there still.

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Speaker 3: Just above the Earth or just outside of the Earth.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of you say, it's kind of hard to

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Speaker 3: find a true vacuum.

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Speaker 1: And so you go further, right, like, Okay, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to leave Earth entirely, I'm gonna go into interplanetary space

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Speaker 1: halfway between Earth and Mars. Well, then there's still a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff out there. You know, the Sun pumps

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Speaker 1: out not just photons, which we consider energy and particles

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Speaker 1: and so it disrupts your vacuum, but also matter particles, electrons, protons,

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Speaker 1: alpha particles, very very high speed particles moving on like

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Speaker 1: hundreds of kilometers per second. And there's not a tiny

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Speaker 1: number of them. There's like millions of protons per cubic

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Speaker 1: meter out there in interplanetary space.

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Speaker 3: Whoa coming from the Sun, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the solar wind. And you know that's

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Speaker 1: a tiny number compared to the density of air here

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Speaker 1: on Earth. It's like ten to the nineteen times less dense.

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Speaker 1: So it feels like a vacuum if somebody chucks you

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Speaker 1: out the air lock. But it's not even really close

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Speaker 1: to a vacuum because you still have millions of particles

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Speaker 1: per cubic meter.

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Speaker 3: Well, what if you go out further into space, can

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Speaker 3: you find a true vacuum out there?

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Speaker 1: If you like, leave the solar system and go into

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Speaker 1: interstellar space still inside the galaxy, then you're still surrounded

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Speaker 1: by what we call the interstellar medium, which is mostly

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Speaker 1: and a little bit of dust some cosmic rays. And

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Speaker 1: here it's much more sparse and it's highly variable. You

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Speaker 1: can get from like ten to the minus four up

403
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Speaker 1: to ten to the six molecules per cubic meter, so

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Speaker 1: it's still really not close to empty. And don't forget

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Speaker 1: that's just the kind of matter we know about, right,

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Speaker 1: protons and electrons. There's still also the dark matter which

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Speaker 1: is filling the galaxy. Inside the galaxy where inside the

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Speaker 1: dark matter halo, which is five times as much matter

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Speaker 1: as the normal matter. So inside the galaxy you can't

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Speaker 1: really ever say you have a vacuum.

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Speaker 3: What about like the far reaches of space, Like if

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Speaker 3: you go deep out there in the middle of nowhere,

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Speaker 3: really in the middle of nowhere between galaxies.

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Speaker 1: So take a point, for example, between the Milky Way

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Speaker 1: and Andromeda. You're far outside of the galaxy. There's still

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Speaker 1: something there. There's the intergalactic medium. This is a rarefied plasmi.

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Speaker 1: It's mostly protons and it's not zero. There's like one

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Speaker 1: to ten atoms per cubic meter, and there's actually kind

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Speaker 1: of a lot of stuff out there, this plasma that's

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Speaker 1: between galaxies. This number sort of shocks me. Is about

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Speaker 1: half of the ordinary matter in the universe. Like you

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Speaker 1: look up at the night sky and you see stars,

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Speaker 1: and you think about galaxies, and you know, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of dark matter out there that we can't see.

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Speaker 1: But you imagine probably we're seeing all the normal matter.

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Speaker 1: But something like half fifty percent of all the normal

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Speaker 1: matter in the universe is between galaxies, in these sort

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Speaker 1: of filaments of plasma that connects them together.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because these filaments are huge, right, like the space

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Speaker 3: between galaxies and clusters of galaxies. It's a lot. So

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Speaker 3: even if you only have one to ten atoms per

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Speaker 3: cubic meter, it adds up to as you're saying, half

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Speaker 3: of the stuff in the universe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really a lot of stuff. But you can

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Speaker 1: get more sparse. Right, You're like, let's not hang out

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Speaker 1: between the galaxies. Let's leave the galactic cluster, or let's

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Speaker 1: find one of these supervoids that are between the superclusters.

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Speaker 1: Right and out there is the closest you can get

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Speaker 1: to a vacuum, you know, the number density of particles,

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Speaker 1: the particles per cubic meter drops to almost zero. There's

441
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,639
Speaker 1: almost no photons out there either. It's like as close

442
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:07,200
Speaker 1: to zero as you can get.

443
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 3: Wait, isn't that weird? Like how can you have no photons?

444
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,160
Speaker 3: Like you'd be there and you would look out around

445
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 3: you and you wouldn't see anything.

446
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 1: It'll never actually get too zero. Right, You'll be as

447
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 1: distant as possible from all of those galaxies, and so

448
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,199
Speaker 1: you'll have the dimmest view of all of them. But

449
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,120
Speaker 1: you're right, they'll never actually get to zero, Right, It's

450
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 1: not like you look around you and you see total blackness.

451
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 1: So the number of photons will never actually get to zero.

452
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 1: Even inside those supervoids. It's like the furthest you can

453
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 1: get from all the light sources. It's like if you're

454
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 1: trying to find a dark spot in your city to

455
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:41,920
Speaker 1: look at the night sky, and you get as far

456
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 1: away as possible from all the street lights, you're still

457
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 1: gonna have some light there.

458
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 3: Are you trying to say that there is no perfect

459
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,440
Speaker 3: vacuum in the universe, naturally occurring perfect vacuum in the universe,

460
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,159
Speaker 3: Like it's not possible to find a perfect vacuum.

461
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 1: It's probably impossible for all of those reasons. I think

462
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 1: every chunk of space problems has at least one photon

463
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,160
Speaker 1: in it from some distant galaxy that threw that particle

464
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 1: in that direction.

465
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 3: But that's kind of an average though, right, Like maybe

466
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,880
Speaker 3: when you're out there you see a photon every once

467
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:13,919
Speaker 3: in a while, but in between the times that you

468
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 3: see a photon, you would be sort of in a

469
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:17,360
Speaker 3: perfect vacuum potentially.

470
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 1: And here's where we run up against the technical question,

471
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: because every chunk of space also contains dark energy, right.

472
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 1: Dark energy not something we understand, but every chunk of

473
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 1: space has some of it. So the technical definition of

474
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 1: a vacuum is not space with no energy in it.

475
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 1: It's spaced with a minimum amount of energy. So you

476
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 1: can be in a chunk of space that has some

477
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 1: energy in it and still call that a vacuum if

478
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 1: you're convinced that that's the most relaxed possible state of space.

479
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:46,120
Speaker 4: Hmm.

480
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 3: It sounds like maybe there's a concept of a perfect vacuum,

481
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 3: and then there's a concept of like what's the minimum

482
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 3: vacuum that the universe naturally has out there? You know,

483
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 3: kind of like temperature, right like, there's absolute zero, and

484
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 3: then there's what actually actually seen the universe.

485
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: There's what space theoretically could accomplish in terms of relaxation,

486
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: and then there's this sort of most relaxed space that

487
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: actually exists in the universe, and those could be different.

488
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 3: M all right, So let's get into what would actually

489
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 3: happen if you create a perfect vacuum in the universe.

490
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 3: What would that mean, Is it possible? And would it

491
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 3: be as tidy as we want it to be? So

492
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 3: let's dig into that. But first, let's take out quick break.

493
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544
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550
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561
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 3: All right, we're talking about vacuuming the universe. It sounds

562
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 3: like the universe has a lot of space that you

563
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 3: need to suck up.

564
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: It's a big chore to clean up the whole universe.

565
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 3: Now, is the universe more of like a shag carpet

566
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 3: or you think it's more of a wooden floors kind

567
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 3: of situation.

568
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: I think it'd be pretty hard to totally thoroughly cleanse

569
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: the universe, So yeah, it's definitely shag carpeting out there.

570
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 3: Or maybe right like, we don't know if maybe the

571
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 3: universe encompasses all of the matter in the universe, or

572
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 3: maybe there's a bunch of universe out there that is

573
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 3: truly empty.

574
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: It's possible, though. Cosmologists prefer the assumption that the universe

575
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: is essentially the same everywhere. It's not a totally solid

576
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: experimental point, but it's sort of the simplest idea that

577
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: there's no special place in the universe. And so when

578
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: you zoom out really really far on cosmic scales, we

579
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: see so far the universe has the same density of

580
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: stuff basically everywhere, again massively zooming out on the scale

581
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: of superclusters of galaxies. So that would suggest that there

582
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: isn't any place in space that's like really truly specially empty,

583
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: different from the part of the universe that we find

584
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: ourselves in. So that's just an assumption, right, which is

585
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: extrapolating from what we see out to infinity, which is

586
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: always dangerous.

587
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think sometimes people talk about the analogy with

588
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 3: like fish in the water, right, Like you could be

589
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 3: a fish at the bottom of the ocean and think, oh,

590
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 3: the whole universe is filled with water, right, because as

591
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 3: far as I can see, there's water.

592
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. I think that's Max tech Mark's analogy,

593
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: which is really wonderful because it gives you a sense

594
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: of your naivete and how you might not know what

595
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: you don't know. And there could, of course be boundaries

596
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: to the kind of universe that you imagine. We could

597
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: be living in a bubble where these laws of physics

598
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: apply and everything seems to make sense to us, but

599
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: there could be an edge to it out past which

600
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: the universe is in another phase, you know, crazy densities

601
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: where quantum gravity applies, or maybe the Inflanton field hasn't

602
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: decayed yet, or other crazy notions, so it's always possible.

603
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 3: Or maybe we're living inside of a vacuum of someone

604
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 3: cleaning up their universe in a super mega.

605
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: Universe, man, that would totally suck so well.

606
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 3: As you were saying earlier, it's kind of hard to find

607
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 3: a naturally occurring perfect vacuum because even if you're out

608
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 3: there in the depth of space in between galactic clusters,

609
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 3: there's stills kind of stuff in it. There might be

610
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 3: some a little bit of light or an atom here

611
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 3: or there, or maybe even dark energy or dark matter.

612
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's right. It's hard to find a chunk

613
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: of space that really has no particles in it because

614
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: the universe is buzzing with stuff and that's flying everywhere

615
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 1: and filling everything up.

616
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 3: So then I guess the next question that we can

617
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 3: ask is is the perfect vacuum possible? And what would

618
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 3: it look like like? Can you have a chunk of

619
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 3: space without any particle, matter or energy in it? What's

620
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 3: left if you have none of that?

621
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, So imagine that you were able to somehow rid

622
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: chunk of space of all the particles. Maybe you built

623
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: a box that blocked all photons another matter from entering,

624
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: and you sucked everything out of it. What would be

625
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: in there? Right? What is sort of the nature of nothing.

626
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: What is the minimum thing that exists in the universe,

627
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: or like, what is reality when there's nothing in it?

628
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: And you know, we don't know the answer to that

629
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: question at the deepest level, but we do have a

630
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: theory that describes it. Right, We call that thing space,

631
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: and space still has a structure to it even if

632
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: you suck all the stuff out of it. Right, this

633
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: is what we were talking about earlier, that there's a

634
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: possibility for things to exist, and that possibility are the fields.

635
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: We think of these as part of space itself, That

636
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: these fields exist even when there's nothing in them, that

637
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: the possibility for things to exist is part of the

638
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: structure of space itself.

639
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 3: I guess, as you were saying, it kind of depends

640
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 3: on whether you consider fields to be a thing or not. Like,

641
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 3: if you consider them to be a thing, then fields

642
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 3: kind of take up all of space in the universe, Right,

643
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 3: you can't have a space without fields. But if fields

644
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 3: are just kind of a made up concept, then it

645
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 3: is possible to have empty space.

646
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: If you consider field to be the most fundamental, then yes,

647
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: they are the bedrock. They are contained as part of space.

648
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: They're a fundamental aspect of the universe, and we can

649
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: talk in a minute about like what is the lowest

650
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: energy those fields can occupy, What would that vacuum mean,

651
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. If you reject fields and say, look,

652
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: I can't ever see fields. I don't think that those

653
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: really are the way particles push on each other, then

654
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: you have another picture, which is virtual particles. Particles push

655
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: on each other by exchanging these virtual particles, you know,

656
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: in two electrons whiz by each other, They're not using

657
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: their fields to push on each other. They're exchanging virtual photons.

658
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: So if you use that picture, you don't just delete

659
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: the field to replace it with nothing else. You delete

660
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: the fields and you replace it with an infinite number

661
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: of virtual particles. So in neither picture of the universe

662
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: is really truly empty, even when you have no real

663
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: matter in it.

664
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 3: Well, is it possible to have space without fields?

665
00:32:59,360 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 4: Right?

666
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 3: Because field kind of have come and gone in our

667
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 3: history of the universe, And also I think mathematically it's

668
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 3: sort of possible to just not have a field and

669
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 3: still have space. Right.

670
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: What do you mean fields have come and gone? You

671
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: mean it's a scientific concept or in the cosmological history

672
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: of the universe, I.

673
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 3: Mean, like in the cosmological history, right, like you know,

674
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 3: the Big Bang, we didn't have some of the fields

675
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 3: we have.

676
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: Right Our description of the history of the universe goes

677
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: back really really far to what we think is like

678
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: a few tiny moments in time after maybe the universe

679
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: was created, But it really goes back only as far

680
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: as we can describe with our current laws of physics,

681
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: and those laws always include fields. So it might be

682
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: that before a certain point there weren't fields, but that's

683
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: because the universe is like in a different phase where

684
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: fields are no longer a good description of what's happening,

685
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: and so we use fields as a way to describe

686
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: the universe we're in right now. We don't know if

687
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: fields are fundamental or when the universe changes conditions to

688
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: a point where these laws of physics are no longer

689
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: relevant that some other description is useful. Going back to

690
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 1: your fish analogy, sort of imagining that the universe currently

691
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: is in a certain phase, like the way the fish

692
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: are swimming through water, and that water is a certain phase,

693
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: and they develop laws of physics that describe, you know,

694
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: the fluid dynamics of that water. If the water was

695
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: to boil then the water's in a new phase and

696
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,439
Speaker 1: their laws don't work anymore. In the same way, there's

697
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: a moment before which we don't think fields probably describe

698
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: the phase of the universe. We don't know how to

699
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,280
Speaker 1: describe it requires quantum gravity. But from that moment and forward,

700
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 1: we think fields are a good description of the whole universe.

701
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: So in that sense, yeah, fields haven't always existed, but

702
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 1: only because this phase of the universe hasn't always existed.

703
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 3: Well, I guess what I mean is like, if it

704
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 3: is a phase, it kind of seems optional, kind of

705
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 3: like the water in the ocean, right, Like, you know,

706
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 3: you can imagine a universe existing without the muon field

707
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 3: for example, or the towel field, or the you know,

708
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 3: certain quarks or whatever, and you would still maybe have

709
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,879
Speaker 3: a functioning universe, which means maybe they're optional, in which

710
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 3: case maybe you can have universe without fields.

711
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,439
Speaker 1: We don't know the answer to that question, right What

712
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,959
Speaker 1: is the physics of other phases of the universe where

713
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,479
Speaker 1: our laws of physics do not apply? That's a question

714
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: of like what is quantum gravity? You know, what happens

715
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: when things get super duper dense and very very hot,

716
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 1: where gravity is important, and quantum mechanics is important. We

717
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 1: just don't have a theory that describes that. Some candidate

718
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 1: theories do include fields, right, There's still are fields in

719
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 1: some of those theories, and so it might be that

720
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,399
Speaker 1: there are still fields back before that moment in time

721
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: when our current theories break down. We just don't know.

722
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 1: So from that point of view, you don't always have fields.

723
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: But if we're talking about, like what is a vacuum,

724
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:39,879
Speaker 1: I think that's sort of in the context of our

725
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: current kind of space, the current phase of the universe

726
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 1: that we're in, you can still say what is a

727
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 1: vacuum in that context.

728
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 3: So then I'm trying to figure out what you're trying

729
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 3: to say. Are you saying that you cannot have a vacuum,

730
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 3: a true vacuum, or are you saying that you can't

731
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 3: have a vacuum where there's not even fields in it?

732
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 3: Or does your definition of a vacuum just includes the

733
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 3: fields as a base kind of layer of existence.

734
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 1: It's that last one. What we consider a vacuum is

735
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 1: space at its most relaxed, which is what is the

736
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 1: least energy possible to exist in space? And because our

737
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 1: concept of space includes these built in fields. They will

738
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: always contain fields, So a vacuum is not perfect zeroness,

739
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,479
Speaker 1: complete emptiness. It's a most relaxed state of space, which

740
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 1: will always include these fields.

741
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 3: But I guess, is it theoretically possible to have zero

742
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 3: energy space?

743
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 1: It is not theoretically possible because all these fields are

744
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: quantum fields. They're not classical fields like Maxwell's theory of electromagnetism,

745
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 1: which has like electric and magnetic fields oscillating which makes light.

746
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: Those fields could be absolute zero. You could have them

747
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: at zero energy. You could have zero electric field and

748
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 1: zero magnetic field. Our modern view is that these fields

749
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: are quantum fields, which means they oscillate differently instead of

750
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: whiggling like a string where they can take any value.

751
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: There are only certain solutions that are allowed. They're like discretized.

752
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: They're quantized, and the mathematics don't work for zero energy,

753
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: like the solution of the quantum field equations don't allow

754
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: a zero energy solutions. It's like a minimum energy required

755
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 1: for any quantum fields. They have to be like bubbling

756
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: and frothing at some tiny little level at the very minimum.

757
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 3: I guess maybe what I'm asking it at a fundamental

758
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 3: level is can you have a universe with no fields?

759
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 1: Are you asking whether we could have a universe with

760
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: fields that are at zero or a universe where space

761
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: literally does not have the capacity for fields.

762
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,720
Speaker 3: Can you have a universe where there are no fields

763
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 3: in it?

764
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: That? We don't know? Right? Our current definition of space

765
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: has these fields built in. Is it possible to have

766
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,399
Speaker 1: another kind of space without fields where you wouldn't even

767
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: have the possibility to have matter in it? We don't know.

768
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:51,879
Speaker 1: We don't even know what that would mean, right, because

769
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 1: you can't have things in it? What does distance really mean?

770
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: If space is by definition empty? Distance is sort of

771
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 1: defined to be between two locations, right, So be like

772
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: a whole new kind of space, one that doesn't even

773
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 1: have the capacity to have stuff in it.

774
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 3: But that does a math allow for it? Or does

775
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 3: a math not only exist like the math we have

776
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 3: only exists or is defined in a universe with fields

777
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:15,839
Speaker 3: in it?

778
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: You could create a conceptual space with no fields in it.

779
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: Sure it's trivial, right, Like there's no math for it,

780
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: there's nothing in it, right, So it's just like it's

781
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: like writing nothing on a sheet of paper. That's your theory?

782
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean kind of right. Well, there's a paper, right,

783
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 3: the paper exists, you're just not putting an equation in it,

784
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 3: or you're writing zero in it.

785
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, zero, Right, But what is zero like is that

786
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: you have a field whose value is zero. If you're

787
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 1: talking about like really true empty of any theoretical content

788
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 1: that can exist, theoretically, it doesn't describe anything in our universe. Right.

789
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: All these concept has to make contact with reality. So

790
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 1: our best description of reality as we see it out

791
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: there is space that always has fields in it. In

792
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: those fee fields are never at zero energy. We've never

793
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: discovered any evidence for fieldless space. Theoretically you can make

794
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: that concept, sure, but we don't think it describes reality.

795
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 3: I see. So I think what you're saying is that

796
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 3: the universe that we see out there has fields in it,

797
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,240
Speaker 3: and therefore there's no such thing as perfect nothingness because

798
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 3: everything we see has fields in it.

799
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. If perfect nothingness as things without fields, then we

800
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: don't think that exists. In the universe. Every chunk of

801
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 1: space has those fields, and those fields have some zero

802
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 1: point energy, some minimum fuzziness, some oscillation to them. For example,

803
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: the Higgs field feels all of space and the Higgs

804
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 1: field is sort of weirdly stuck at high energy. So

805
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: it's not a trivial amount of energy that's in space

806
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 1: even when there's no matter in it.

807
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 3: But I think what you mean by like everywhere there

808
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 3: has this little bit of energy to it, you don't

809
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,799
Speaker 3: mean like there's actually energy there. I think what you

810
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 3: mean is that there's kind of like the potential for

811
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 3: there to be things in it, or like the universe

812
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,439
Speaker 3: leans towards stuff being there.

813
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 1: No, I mean there's literally energy in space. The Higgs field,

814
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 1: for example, filled space, and it has a high potential energy.

815
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: Even if there are no particles there, there is energy

816
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: in the configuration of the field itself.

817
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 3: That's what I mean. I think, as you said, it

818
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 3: has the potential to do stuff. It's a potential energy.

819
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 3: It's not like a little photon floating out there in space.

820
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: That's right, it's potential energy exactly. It's like if you

821
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 1: mentioned a guitar string. Somebody has pulled the guitar string

822
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: away from its relaxed state and it's taught, so it's

823
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: storing energy in that. It's not moving. There's no kinetic

824
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: energy right now. It's not oscillating, but it's held in

825
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 1: a configuration that has energy. If somebody was to release it,

826
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: it would vibrate and make a noise. Right. The Higgs

827
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 1: field is just like that. It's held in some configuration

828
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: that stores a lot of energy, and that's potential energy.

829
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: But every field has some energy, not even just the

830
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: Higgs field. Like the electromagnetic field that fills space is

831
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 1: held in a non zero value, and that's not just

832
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: potential energy. That's like actually thrumming with kinetic.

833
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 3: Energy, throwing in a quantum set. I think what you

834
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 3: mean is like there's like quantum particles popping in and

835
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 3: out of existence. Is that what you mean?

836
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 1: Not enough energy to make a real particle, But the

837
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,359
Speaker 1: field itself has energy, it is vibrating. You can think

838
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: of these fields as having kinetic energy and potential energy,

839
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:16,879
Speaker 1: just like a string, right, which slides back and forth

840
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: between having kinetic and potential energy as it oscillates. So

841
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: these fields have actual energy, not enough to make a particle. Right.

842
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: The lowest energy state of these things is not one particle.

843
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 1: It's zero particles, but not zero energy.

844
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 3: All right, So then what does that mean for the

845
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 3: idea of a vacuum? Means that in our universe, you

846
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 3: can have a perfect vacuum.

847
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 1: In our universe. We define sort of theoretical concept is

848
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: the most relaxed state of all the fields. That's sort

849
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,320
Speaker 1: of like how we define a vacuum. We don't define

850
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 1: it to be like the theoretical minimum where all the

851
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 1: fields are a zero, because that's not theoretically possible. We

852
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: consider this sort of state of space as we understand

853
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,280
Speaker 1: it and try to imagine what would be the most

854
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: relaxed configuration that all the field could get into. And

855
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 1: we now know that that's not at zero. But what's

856
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: interesting is that there might be multiple ways for the

857
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: field to relax. There might be a few stable configurations.

858
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: One of those would be the true vacuum, the actual

859
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,800
Speaker 1: lowest possible state. The other ones would be false vacua,

860
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 1: like places that space gets stuck as it's trying to

861
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 1: relax down to zero and it ends up in a

862
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: stable configuration that's not actually the lowest energy state.

863
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 3: I think what you're saying is that, like even if

864
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 3: you go out there in the middle of space, or

865
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,240
Speaker 3: even if you create one, like you make a box

866
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,280
Speaker 3: where nothing can get in it and there's no particles,

867
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 3: you see no particles in it. There is still a

868
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 3: little bit of like thrumbing or a little bit of

869
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 3: a vibration of the fields in that space not creating

870
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,399
Speaker 3: fully particles, Like there's not enough there to actually pop

871
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 3: out a particle that you can see and interact with,

872
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 3: but there's like, you know, half a particle forming in

873
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 3: then it's gone, and there's a quarter of a particle Thereah,

874
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:55,479
Speaker 3: but it's gone. Kind of situation, right.

875
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you just intuited your way from the field

876
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: description to the particles cold description, like what the energy

877
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: of this field mean if it's not enough to have

878
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: an actual particle there, Well, it's sort of like you

879
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: know the particles exist, and that they don't they pop

880
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 1: in and out of existence. That's replacing the idea of

881
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 1: a field with these virtual particles that have some weird

882
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: energy from space itself and not enough to really exist

883
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: in the sense of like you could hang out and

884
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 1: you could leave the electron there and come back a

885
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: billion years later it would still be there. These are

886
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,479
Speaker 1: virtual particles. That's sort of intuitive way to think about

887
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 1: what a virtual particle is, just like another way to

888
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: think about a field when the field doesn't have enough

889
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 1: energy to make real particles, it might have enough to

890
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: make virtual particles.

891
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 3: All right, Well, let's get into the idea of what

892
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 3: it would mean if you actually created a real vacuum,

893
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 3: and it has to do with this concept of fields relaxing.

894
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 3: How relax can you make a field? What sort of

895
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 3: medication do you need to give it in order for

896
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,959
Speaker 3: it to finally relax. We'll dig into that, but first

897
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 3: let's take another quick break.

898
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

899
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, probably not

900
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite,

901
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are US Dairy

902
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse

903
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,479
Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty fifty. That's why they're working hard

904
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: every day to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve

905
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 1: natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

906
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four

907
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 1: times the same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes

908
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 1: the barn, and irrigates the crops. How is US dairy

909
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 1: tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn

910
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: the methane from maneuver into renewable energy that can power farms, towns,

911
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: and electric cars. So the next time you grab a

912
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 1: slice of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know

913
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: that dairy farmers and processors around the country are using

914
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: the latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense

915
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 1: dairy products we love with less of an impact. Visit

916
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 1: usdairy dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

917
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,720
Speaker 5: This episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union.

918
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932
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Speaker 10: California has millions of homes that could be damaged in

933
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934
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941
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Speaker 12: There are children, friends, and families walking, riding on paths

942
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Speaker 12: and roads every day. Remember they're real people with loved

943
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 12: ones who need them to get home safely. Protect our

944
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Speaker 12: cyclists and pedestrians because they're people too, Go safely, California

945
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 12: From the California Office of Traffic Safety and Caltrans.

946
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 3: All right, we're talking about nothing today. This is the

947
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 3: episode about nothing.

948
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: This is the Seinfeld of podcast.

949
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 3: That's right. I'll be Kramer and you be which one

950
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 3: of us is Kramer, which one of them visits George Consent.

951
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 1: I think you're definitely more Kramer, and I'm more George

952
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: for sure. I always wanted to be an architect.

953
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought I was a comedian. Wait a minute.

954
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 3: We were talking about nothing and the idea of nothing

955
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 3: and whether it's possible to have nothing in the universe,

956
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 3: and it sounds like that's not really possible. In the

957
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 3: universe that we see and experience, there are things called

958
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 3: quantum fields and so which occupied all of space and

959
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,439
Speaker 3: which has kind of inherent energy to it. So there's

960
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 3: really no trunk of space out there that has zero

961
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 3: energy in it.

962
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. Space has these fields and they're always

963
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 1: wiggling at least a little bit. And so instead of

964
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:29,359
Speaker 1: thinking about true zeroness of space, which we think is impossible,

965
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: physicists like to think about the minimum energy state of space.

966
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,800
Speaker 1: That's what we call the vacuum, what happens when space

967
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 1: relaxes as much as it's theoretically allowed.

968
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 3: Okay, so then I guess we're this more like maximum

969
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 3: vacuum of the universe. Maybe not the perfect vacuum, but

970
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 3: the most vacuuminness that the universe can get.

971
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, the vacuumist. But I like that phrase maximum vacuum.

972
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: That sounds cool like an eighties band starring Max Headroom.

973
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 3: Yeah with long long hair. Yeah, that might be out

974
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 3: of our age.

975
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,839
Speaker 1: And to understand what's actually achievable, like how you can

976
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 1: really relax space itself, you have to understand like how

977
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 1: the fields wiggle and how they interact with each other,

978
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: how energy slashes back and forth. It's sort of like

979
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 1: you know when you lie down to take a nap

980
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 1: and you feel like, Okay, I'm totally relaxed. Then you discover,

981
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 1: oh no, I'm actually holding this muscle tot and then

982
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 1: you learn to relax that and relax that, and you

983
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,320
Speaker 1: only really ever fall asleep when all of your muscles

984
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: are fully relaxed in their lowest energy state.

985
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 3: Well, I guess maybe a question is there are fields

986
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 3: that have zero energy to them or not? Or do

987
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 3: all quantum fields have some inherent energy to them?

988
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 1: No quantum fields can have zero energy in them. It's

989
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 1: just an inherent property of any quantum object that cannot

990
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: have zero energy.

991
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 3: Why not?

992
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 1: There's the mathematical approach, which is like you look at

993
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 1: the shorter your equation you try to solve it, the

994
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 1: minimum energy solution is not at zero. The intuitive way

995
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 1: to think about it is the Heisenmber uncertainty principle. Right.

996
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 1: If you accept that things have a minimum uncertainty to them,

997
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 1: then having zero energy would perfectly define its momentum and

998
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,399
Speaker 1: its location. At the same time, you would know too

999
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 1: much about it. So in order to maintain the fuzziness

1000
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: of the universe, these quantum fields have to be buzzing

1001
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:12,839
Speaker 1: a little bit.

1002
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 3: WHOA. That seems to get really philosophical.

1003
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 1: Every time you try to understand quantum mechanics intuitively, you

1004
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 1: got to reach for philosophy. That's really all we have.

1005
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,479
Speaker 1: You know, quantum mechanics has the beautiful mathematics which gives

1006
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,879
Speaker 1: you answers. But you want like intuitive understanding, then it's

1007
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 1: all philosophy.

1008
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 3: But what do you mean, Like, you can't have uncertainty

1009
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 3: with a perfect vacuum, Like couldn't you have a field

1010
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 3: that has zero average energy but it kind of like

1011
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 3: has a negative state of being. I don't know, I

1012
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 3: don't know what I'm talking about, But why can't you

1013
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 3: have fuzziness and a zero average.

1014
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: The value of the field is zero on average, but

1015
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: the energy is not zero. The same way that like

1016
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: when a string vibrates on the guitar. If you took

1017
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: pictures of where the string was and you average its location,

1018
00:49:56,560 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 1: its average location is at the most relaxed state at

1019
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: a straight string. You took any point on that string

1020
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 1: and asks like, where is it on average? On average,

1021
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:07,839
Speaker 1: it's at its relaxed state. It's at the middle point

1022
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,719
Speaker 1: where the string is straight, but it's oscillating still, right,

1023
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,919
Speaker 1: it's still moving. So these fields can have energy while

1024
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 1: their average value is still at zero.

1025
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 3: And so what would happen if a string had no energy.

1026
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 1: Well, a classical string can have no energy, right, And

1027
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 1: that means you know exactly its location and exactly it's momentum.

1028
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 1: It's zero momentum. But a quantum object can't do that.

1029
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 1: You can't know both of those things simultaneously about a

1030
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 1: quantum object. And it's not just that we can't know it.

1031
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:37,760
Speaker 1: Then information does not exist, cannot exist. It's not noah bowl,

1032
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 1: it's not determined.

1033
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 3: Would wouldn't be a quantum object?

1034
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, sure. If you want to overthrow quantum mechanics,

1035
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,319
Speaker 1: then yes, you can have objects with zero energy. So

1036
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 1: classical fields definitely can. But all evidence suggests that all

1037
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 1: the fields we know about other than gravity at least

1038
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: are quantum fields. They have quantum properties.

1039
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,720
Speaker 3: Wait are you saying gravity is a non quantum field.

1040
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,319
Speaker 1: Well, our theory of gravity is a classical one, right,

1041
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 1: and suggests that space can have zero curvature to it

1042
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 1: and all sorts of stuff. We don't have a quantum

1043
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: theory of gravity, so yeah, we have an only classical

1044
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 1: understanding of gravity. We're not successfully quantized gravity. We don't

1045
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 1: even know if gravity is a field or if it's

1046
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 1: just like the curvature of space. So that's not something

1047
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 1: we understand at all. But all the fields that we

1048
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 1: have been able to probe and understand, electromagnetism and the

1049
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 1: weak force, a strong force, these are definitely all quantum fields,

1050
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 1: and so they definitely cannot have zero energy. Same with

1051
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 1: the Higgs field, also definitely a quantum field.

1052
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 3: So wait, then, are you saying that if gravity is

1053
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 3: not a quantum field, then you can have a non

1054
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 3: quantum field.

1055
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 1: It's possible that gravity is a non quantum field. Yeah,

1056
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 1: we just don't really understand gravity. I remember that Einstein's

1057
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,479
Speaker 1: theory of gravity was developed basically at the same time

1058
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: as quantum mechanics, and so he wrote it as a

1059
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 1: classical theory. It makes all sorts of assumptions about the universe.

1060
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: You know that you can have smooth, continuous paths that

1061
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 1: you can know precisely the velocity and location of things

1062
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 1: that we don't think are true about the universe. He

1063
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 1: built those into his theory, and yet it works in

1064
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 1: every location where we can test it. So it's a

1065
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 1: deep question in modern physics, like how do we reconcile

1066
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 1: general relativity with quantum mechanics. But yeah, it's possible that

1067
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 1: gravity is a field that's a classical field that could

1068
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 1: relax down to zero.

1069
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 3: I'm just trying to dig into what you say.

1070
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 7: I mean.

1071
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:23,720
Speaker 3: So when you say it's not possible, what you actually

1072
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 3: mean is like it's not allowed under or the quantum

1073
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 3: view of the universe, which may or may not be true.

1074
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. It might be that the final unification

1075
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 1: and understanding of the bigger picture of physics involves an

1076
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 1: overthrowing of quantum mechanics rather than general relativity. Maybe generativity

1077
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: is right and space is a classical backdrop in some way,

1078
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 1: but in our current understanding of space. At least it

1079
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 1: contains these quantum fields which can't go down to zero.

1080
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:51,760
Speaker 1: But yeah, that could be all wrong.

1081
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, let's get back to our discussion vacuums. So

1082
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 3: you're saying that maybe what we can talk about is

1083
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 3: maximum vacuum of the universe, which is when these fields

1084
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 3: relax down to the lowest level. And you're saying that

1085
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 3: there's kind of different ways for these fields to relax,

1086
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:13,240
Speaker 3: Like there's meditation, there's drinking chamma meal tea.

1087
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 1: Meditation and medication exactly. Well, you know, this sort of

1088
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 1: story of the universe is relaxation. The universe is expanding,

1089
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:23,240
Speaker 1: which means it's getting more dilute, which means it's getting

1090
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: lower temperature. Right, it's cooling down. As the universe expands,

1091
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 1: the matter gets more and more sparse, and so the

1092
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,240
Speaker 1: energy in those fields is going down, down, down, down down.

1093
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: So we think about the whole universe as relaxing. All

1094
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 1: the common fields are sort of chill and out heading

1095
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:39,399
Speaker 1: towards zero.

1096
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 3: Wait, what does that mean? Does that mean like an

1097
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 3: field can have a lot of energy and it can

1098
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 3: have a little bit of energy.

1099
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, fields in the center of the sun have a

1100
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,319
Speaker 1: lot of energy. Fields out in intergalactic space have much

1101
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 1: less energy.

1102
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 3: No, But I mean like like as a concept of

1103
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 3: a field, right.

1104
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 1: Like, well, having multiple particles just means that field is

1105
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 1: wiggling more Like the field wiggles, that's one particle. The

1106
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:03,759
Speaker 1: field wiggles more, that's two particles. Field wiggles even more,

1107
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 1: that's a billion particles.

1108
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 3: I guess I was referring to this idea that maybe

1109
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 3: there's a chunk in space out there with nothing in

1110
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 3: it that has fields in it that are vibrating and

1111
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 3: have energy to it. Can that energy be different values?

1112
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 1: So it depends on how space cools, right, It's sort

1113
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: of like making it too flea. You've got to get

1114
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:23,280
Speaker 1: it to that special configuration. So the universe is cooling,

1115
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 1: time is going on, space is relaxing, And then I

1116
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 1: think the question you're asking is like could it relax

1117
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 1: into different values? Could you have like one state of

1118
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 1: energy over here, another state of lower energy over there?

1119
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like can the electron feel when it relaxes down

1120
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 3: to its minimum? Can it relax down to point one

1121
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 3: or point three or point four? Or when it relaxes

1122
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:45,479
Speaker 3: There's just one possible relaxation meta.

1123
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 1: So almost all the fields relax in a very simple way,

1124
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 1: which is heading towards zero and hitting that minimum, so

1125
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 1: that their average value is zero and they have the

1126
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 1: minimum energy, and that should be the same everywhere in

1127
00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 1: the universe. But one field, the Higgs field, has some

1128
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 1: weird wiggles in it, and it gets stuck as it cools.

1129
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,879
Speaker 1: So the whole universe is cooling down. Everything is settling down,

1130
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 1: sort of rolling towards the bottom of a valley. But

1131
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,359
Speaker 1: the Higgs field gets stuck in this false vacuum as

1132
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 1: a large amount of energy stuck in it high potential

1133
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 1: energy configuration. While everything else like rolled to the bottom

1134
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 1: of a canyon. It got stuck sort of like on

1135
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 1: a shelf on the canyon wall. So the Higgs field

1136
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 1: is different from all the other fields. It's harder for

1137
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 1: it to relax because the shape of its potential energy.

1138
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 3: I think what you mean is like if each field

1139
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 3: is like the string and a guitar. All of the

1140
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 3: fields kind of settled down to kind of a minimum vibration,

1141
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 3: but the Higgs field is kind of stuck in this

1142
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 3: kind of high vibration state.

1143
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 1: It's not actually vibrating and it has high potential energy.

1144
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 1: So while everything else settled down to like the lowest

1145
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:54,839
Speaker 1: possible vibration, it got like stuck in this configuration where

1146
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:57,760
Speaker 1: somebody's pulling it really hard and it's taught. It's not vibrating,

1147
00:55:57,840 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of kinetic energy, has a lot

1148
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 1: of potential energy. So the Higgs field sort of like

1149
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 1: got stuck on a bump on the side of your

1150
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: guitar and is pulled sideways and taught and stuck.

1151
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:10,920
Speaker 3: There, like there's a certain curve to the string. Maybe

1152
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:11,399
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1153
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 1: And so one question is like, is that the true

1154
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 1: vacuum or is that a false vacuum. Is it possible

1155
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:18,800
Speaker 1: for the Higgs field to relax to a lower state,

1156
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: And we've talked about that several times, like if the

1157
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 1: Higgs field would collapse to a lower potential energy configuration,

1158
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 1: that would change the nature of physics in our universe,

1159
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 1: and you know, all of our atoms would explode at

1160
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:30,880
Speaker 1: the speed of light and all sorts of crazy stuff.

1161
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 1: But we think that probably there are multiple possible vacuum states,

1162
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: and the Higgs field is stuck in sort of a

1163
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 1: false vacuum, and the true vacuum is a lower energy

1164
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 1: configuration that it can't quite get to. It's sort of

1165
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:46,720
Speaker 1: stuck in this vacuum.

1166
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 3: M like the Higgs field can relax to maybe lower,

1167
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:48,840
Speaker 3: but for some reason it's not.

1168
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, somebody's holding on to that string.

1169
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 3: It's the finger of God or God's pick.

1170
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:00,840
Speaker 1: Maybe God's just in a dad band and that defines

1171
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 1: the nature of the universe.

1172
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go. That's right. And as Dan is.

1173
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: Called maximum vacuum.

1174
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:12,840
Speaker 3: Maximum vacuum, that's right. Now, does God play all the

1175
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 3: instruments or is he like a one man Dad. It's

1176
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 3: like the Holy Quick Quintet, you know.

1177
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 1: But then all members are actually part of the one right.

1178
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 1: I don't have enough theological background to comment on that

1179
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 1: without offending.

1180
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 3: People anyways, So you were saying that maybe, like we're

1181
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 3: not in the most vacuumus of vacuums that the universe

1182
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 3: can be in. And thankfully all.

1183
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 1: Space out there probably has some particles in it. Even

1184
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 1: if you were able to remove particles from space, you

1185
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 1: would have space in a sort of Higgs field that's

1186
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 1: stuck at a high potential energy. And so yeah, probably

1187
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: nothing out there currently is even capable of getting to

1188
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 1: the maximum vacuum state that our kind of space is

1189
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 1: technically capable of achieving.

1190
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 3: And thankfully right, because if we ever flip to that

1191
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:02,919
Speaker 3: a lower or more vacuum e vacuum, then we're all

1192
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 3: toast like our universe would kind of get upturned and

1193
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:06,919
Speaker 3: really suck.

1194
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 1: Absolutely. We have a whole episode about what would happen

1195
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 1: if the Higgs field did go to zero, and yeah,

1196
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 1: it would ruin your life.

1197
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 3: On the plus that you wouldn't have to vacuum your

1198
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 3: house anymore.

1199
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: It would be automatically vacuumed and.

1200
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 3: Just rumba our way to a more blissful existence. All right, Well,

1201
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:25,920
Speaker 3: I think the answer to our question of the episode

1202
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 3: is that a vacuum, it would be a spot with

1203
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 3: nothing in it, not even energy. And as far as

1204
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 3: we know, our universe kind of has something in it everywhere,

1205
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 3: and so a perfect vacuum it's not possible, and we

1206
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 3: have to settle for the eighties Coverman maximum vacuum.

1207
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,920
Speaker 1: And when physicists talk about vacuums, that's what they mean.

1208
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 1: They mean a chunk of space with no particles in it,

1209
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 1: relaxed to its maximum possible state, which is not zero energy.

1210
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 3: I feel like physicists are settling then, though, shouldn't they

1211
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 3: be striving for perfection.

1212
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 1: No, we're just defining our achievements as success.

1213
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 3: I see you're lowering standards.

1214
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 1: We're redefining success.

1215
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 3: Everyone gets a trophy exactly, participation vacuum. All right, Well,

1216
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 3: I guess the next time you look at into the space,

1217
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 3: think about the idea that there is nothing out there

1218
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 3: that is truly nothing. There's always something out there in

1219
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 3: the universe.

1220
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 1: And nothingness has a lot of something to think.

1221
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:26,920
Speaker 3: About that's not nothing. Well, we hope you enjoyed that.

1222
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us, See you next time.

1223
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that. Daniel and Jorge Explain

1224
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts

1225
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:49,160
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