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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff Mom Never told you?

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Speaker 1: From House stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we

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Speaker 1: are talking about punk rock and I wish we could

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Speaker 1: have some like shredding guitar going on in the background

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Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, for this episode, we have spiked our

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Speaker 1: hair and put safety pin three years just so you know,

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Speaker 1: my ears bleeding, but we sterilize them. So let's talk

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Speaker 1: about punk rock because we've got a lot to talk about.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the genre itself, specifically women

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Speaker 1: in it, and of course we got to talk about

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Speaker 1: the Riot Girls exactly of the nineties. Yes, that's Riot

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Speaker 1: Girls with three rs no. I so oh. Punk rock

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Speaker 1: as we know began in the early seventies and really

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Speaker 1: came into the mainstream in nineteen seventies six with the

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Speaker 1: Ramones and the Sex Pistols and punk rock fans out

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Speaker 1: there are gonna be like, but what about the New

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Speaker 1: York Dolls and the Stooges. Yeah, yeah, all that stuff

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Speaker 1: was happening in the early seventies, but we're talking about

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Speaker 1: the mainstream nineteen seventy six, that's the year. Well, another

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Speaker 1: thing about the punk rock movement is not just the

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Speaker 1: popularity of these bands, It is also the culture surrounding

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Speaker 1: punk rock. The whole look, the whole outlook on everything.

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Speaker 1: And part of that, a big part of that is

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Speaker 1: the is the d I Y culture. Yeah, d I

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Speaker 1: Y do what y'llself. And you say the popularity of

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Speaker 1: these bands, it's more like the ethos was more anti

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Speaker 1: popularity because punk was really a movement that came out

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Speaker 1: of this disgruntlement of white middle class dudes and um,

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Speaker 1: they were all about yeah, like kind of forming their

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Speaker 1: own d I Y media, with their own fanzines that

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Speaker 1: they would make themselves, and obviously like the whole clothing

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Speaker 1: of sort of starting their own fashion trends and ripping

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Speaker 1: up their clothes, making their clothes, being as counterculture as

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Speaker 1: possible in a way. Yeah, and they really used this

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Speaker 1: whole look to set themselves apart. I mean, these were

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Speaker 1: like angry young dudes and women who were like, we're

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Speaker 1: we're different, we're going to stand apart, we're fighting for

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Speaker 1: something or not, or they're just nihilists and and it's

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Speaker 1: chaos and anarchy. Yeah, and a lot of drugs, so

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Speaker 1: many drugs. Not to sound like my mother, but the seventies, Wow,

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Speaker 1: there's stay away from heroin. That's all I have to say.

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Speaker 1: But speaking of the d I Y stuff, because we're

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Speaker 1: gonna this, this fuels a lot of the conversation. Later on,

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Speaker 1: we were talking about riot girls. Stephanie L. Carter in

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Speaker 1: her dissertation Every Girl Is a Riot Girl question Mark,

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Speaker 1: exploring the intersections of rye girl in the third wave

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Speaker 1: of feminism, both of which we'll get into in just

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Speaker 1: a second. She traces though this d I Y corner

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Speaker 1: stone of punk rock back to British and American arts

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Speaker 1: and crafts movements of the late nineteenth and early twentieth century,

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Speaker 1: which was spearheaded by art critic and social theorist John Ruskin,

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Speaker 1: who was rallying for the rejection of mechanization and the

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Speaker 1: standardization of production that was going on at the time.

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Speaker 1: And she sees d I Y that's happening in the

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Speaker 1: early um in mid seventies that kicks off punk rock

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Speaker 1: as sort of a revival of that and um she

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Speaker 1: says it's connected to punk because it's linked to the

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Speaker 1: desire to equalize the value of artistic endeavors, regardless of form,

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Speaker 1: and to expand access to creativity and production, because that's

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Speaker 1: the whole thing about punk, Like, you don't necessarily need

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Speaker 1: to be a guitar virtuoso to play punk rock. You

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Speaker 1: just pick up the guitar are and you shred. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you shred. I sound like such a square. Well,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people picking up these guitars and shredding.

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Speaker 1: We're dudes, as we said. Um. Hannah Hickman and her

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Speaker 1: essay on Visual Vitriol says that punk is an unmistakably

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Speaker 1: male oriented creation that forced women to abandon their femininity.

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Speaker 1: And she talks a lot about the aesthetic, the punk aesthetic.

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Speaker 1: How yes, everybody was, you know, wearing their short, spiky

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Speaker 1: hair and wearing the same ripped clothes and everything, but

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Speaker 1: it was such a masculine look. And so she gets

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Speaker 1: into a little bit of the issue of women having

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Speaker 1: to abandon anything that was thought of as traditional femininity

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Speaker 1: and trying to find that happy medium where they were

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Speaker 1: punk but they were still women, but everybody looked the same.

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Speaker 1: And so she says that they used the punk aesthetic

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Speaker 1: to create a discourse on female sexualization. Yeah, it's interesting

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Speaker 1: when you when you read about the history of punk rock,

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Speaker 1: so much of it is fueled bi sex and a

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Speaker 1: lot of those like early punk icons like iggy pop.

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Speaker 1: You could pull in David Bowie, lou Reid, even though

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Speaker 1: their music might not be as strict punk, but they

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Speaker 1: were all about breaking gender barriers. There was so much

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Speaker 1: gender bending going on. But at the same time, when

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Speaker 1: you read about the women who they were dating or

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Speaker 1: really just sleeping with, like a lot of times those

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Speaker 1: women were just relegated to the side. They had no

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Speaker 1: part in the music whatsoever. They were cleaning the house,

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Speaker 1: they were making food, and so when you think about

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Speaker 1: women who are actively engaged in punk rock, they had

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Speaker 1: to completely confront that that traditional gender role that was

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Speaker 1: still happening even within the punk community. UM, I think

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Speaker 1: it's worth it to point out that it was a

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Speaker 1: woman who coined the term punk rock. I had no idea,

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Speaker 1: and I actually looked this up in a billion different

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Speaker 1: places because I was like, really, this is something convenient

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Speaker 1: that they're sticking into some of these blogs and histories

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Speaker 1: and everything. But an article in the London Observer, it's

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Speaker 1: a very, very long article about Caroline Coon, who dabbled

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Speaker 1: in modeling and filmmaking. She's this very tall live figure.

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Speaker 1: She was very involved in counterculture in the sixties and seventies.

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Speaker 1: She also worked in music journalism at The Melody Maker,

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Speaker 1: and her July nine story was the first to take

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Speaker 1: on the subject of punk rock. Indeed, so as punk developed,

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Speaker 1: obviously there were women who were getting up and picking

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Speaker 1: up those guitars and shredding all day long. And a

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Speaker 1: woman named Hillary mccookery book And no mccookery book is

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Speaker 1: not her actual last name. Her real name last name

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Speaker 1: is Helen McCullum, now Reddington, and she was in a

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Speaker 1: band called The Chiefs, and she wrote a book called

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Speaker 1: The Lost Women of Rock Music because she thought women

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Speaker 1: at the time were being left out of the history books.

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Speaker 1: And she wrote that being punk was quote something you

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Speaker 1: did rather than listen to or admired or something. It

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Speaker 1: was about being that person yourself, rather than standing back

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Speaker 1: and thinking that somebody else was great. Right, So here's

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Speaker 1: that reaction against the whole the previous involvement of women

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Speaker 1: in the punk rock scene and the movement. Now there's

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Speaker 1: this attitude of okay, well, we've seen all these dudes

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Speaker 1: doing this, all these white dudes with their spiky hair. No,

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Speaker 1: we have something to say. We want to get involved,

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Speaker 1: and we want to push back against the patriarchy and

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Speaker 1: the status quo. And she cites uh, seminal punk rock bands,

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Speaker 1: female lead punk rock bands like the Slits, the Raincoats.

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Speaker 1: You've also got Patti Smith in there, who was one

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Speaker 1: of the early women on the scene. Uh, Susie and

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Speaker 1: the Banshees and the Modebtsuh. And she quotes Gina Birch,

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Speaker 1: who was a founding member of the rain Coats, who

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Speaker 1: says that punk was revolutionary. To me, it wasn't shocking.

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Speaker 1: It was a great time for women because sex was

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Speaker 1: taken off. And she goes into again that genderlessness of

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Speaker 1: the punk look in the punk culture right, and the

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Speaker 1: genderlessness was actually celebrated. Birch was talking about that as

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Speaker 1: a good thing because, as Lucy O'Brien, who formed The

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Speaker 1: Catholic Girl said, for women in the seventies, there was

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Speaker 1: this huge pressure to conform and be ladylike and wear nice,

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Speaker 1: inoffensive blue eyeshadow, which I have equibbled with blue eyeshadow

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Speaker 1: being inoffensive, but anyway, Um, she says that punk ran

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Speaker 1: counter to women's duty to hold yourself back and not

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Speaker 1: be vulgar and not be too obvious. And she she

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Speaker 1: points out something that I think is really interesting. She

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Speaker 1: says that as far as the reaction to women in

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Speaker 1: the punk scene, she says that a lot of men

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Speaker 1: really took it as a provocative stance and almost took

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Speaker 1: it personally that you were personally offending them by dressing

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Speaker 1: in a way that was really anti feminine. So this

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Speaker 1: is after the whole like sixties hippie dippy, like we're

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Speaker 1: wearing long flowing hair and we're all smoking whatever together.

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Speaker 1: Now women are actually taking an active role in this

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Speaker 1: music and cultural scene, and so a lot of people

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Speaker 1: were kind of weird at by that. Well, and it's

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Speaker 1: ironic too that the men might be freaked out by

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Speaker 1: women not appearing as feminine because some of their whole

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Speaker 1: thing was kind of appropriating more female or feminized clothing

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Speaker 1: and fashion to go against the mainstream, like like the

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Speaker 1: New York Dolls who would dress very flamboyantly and where

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Speaker 1: high heels and such. And Caroline Coon, who we mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 1: talks about this whole male rebellion thing. Uh, she says

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Speaker 1: that it's so much easier for a man to go out,

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Speaker 1: be crazy, do drugs, rebel, and then settle down and

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Speaker 1: come back into the adult male, patriarchal culture. She said

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Speaker 1: that that same attitude doesn't extend to young women. You know, basically,

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Speaker 1: if you ruin your reputation as a woman who's doing drugs,

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Speaker 1: having sex, being in the music scene, then you're just

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Speaker 1: done for. And that really wasn't fair basically. And so

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Speaker 1: she said though that within the context of punk, women

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Speaker 1: could go outside the societal norms and it easier to

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Speaker 1: come back in. And part of that is due in

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Speaker 1: part to the feminist movement that preceded the punk movement.

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Speaker 1: But when we're talking about feminism and punk, like early

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Speaker 1: punk in the seventies, the focus was not on that

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Speaker 1: at all. There was actually a feeling within the community

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Speaker 1: that feminists were really just these humorists and boring women. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they weren't saying we're feminists, We're gonna go, you know,

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Speaker 1: out there and and get one for women. They just

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Speaker 1: wanted to be doing the same thing that the boys

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Speaker 1: were doing. They weren't speaking equality for their gender necessarily.

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Speaker 1: They were just out there like, well, I want to

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Speaker 1: play music, I want to be in the clubs and whatever.

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Speaker 1: There was just this whole view of feminists as as

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Speaker 1: boring and why would I want to be that? But

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Speaker 1: then once you know, Punco's mainstream, like we said, starting

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Speaker 1: in seventies six and Lucy O'Brien in her essay punk rock,

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Speaker 1: So what the cultural legacy of punk um says that

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Speaker 1: after that switch app and and punk becomes more mainstream,

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Speaker 1: it's meaning for women was really preserved as a feminist outlet.

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Speaker 1: She said. It reacted against he at the same time

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Speaker 1: redefined sixties feminism and resurfaced in the nineties with grunge

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Speaker 1: and riot Girl. And with the riot Girl movement we

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Speaker 1: have the intersection of punk rock yet again and third

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Speaker 1: wave feminism, which started if you can say that a

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Speaker 1: movement started, like well, yeah, you can't save it. A

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Speaker 1: movement start, but it officially started with the publication of

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Speaker 1: an essay by Rebecca Walker, daughter of Alice Walker, in

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Speaker 1: the January edition of MS magazine, where she declares, I

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Speaker 1: am not a post feminist feminist, I am the third wave.

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Speaker 1: Now we're not saying that Riot Girl and third wave

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Speaker 1: feminism are one in the same, but there were these

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Speaker 1: two things that were coalescing at the time, Right, it

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Speaker 1: was definitely a reaction. Well, some people said that it

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Speaker 1: was cyclical because you had the sixties feminist movement, you

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Speaker 1: had punk, and then twenty years later here comes Riot Girl.

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Speaker 1: So it seems to be like the cyclical reaction against

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Speaker 1: you know, societal changes that we're going on. Right, and

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Speaker 1: now a lot of people are talking about Riot Girl

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Speaker 1: again with the whole pussy riot scandal that's going on

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Speaker 1: or not the scandal could we sit called a scandal?

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Speaker 1: Will be the right kerfuffle kerfuffle, the pussy riot kerfuffle

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Speaker 1: that is happening in Russia, which we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about in depth in our next podcast episode. Right. Well,

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Speaker 1: so the Riot Girl movement, uh made people are just

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Speaker 1: as angry as the whole women involved in punk thing.

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Speaker 1: Did um. Nobody really knew what to make of it

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Speaker 1: at first. They called it ugly, it was gross. These

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Speaker 1: are angry women. The Guardian in two thousand nine. Uh,

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Speaker 1: like Kristen said, there's this whole look back at Riot Girl.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's getting nostalgic and talking about it again. It seems

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Speaker 1: to be more relevant now for various reasons. That we'll

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Speaker 1: get into, but The Guardian in two thousand nine to

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Speaker 1: find it as an underground feminist punk movement that began

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Speaker 1: began in the early nineties that mocked the doe ide

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Speaker 1: perfectly groom cheerleader aesthetic. And it was a lot of

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Speaker 1: frustration at the time that was happening for girls who

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Speaker 1: were going to punk rock shows and who were in

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Speaker 1: the music scene, but who were fed up with the

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Speaker 1: fact that the only bands that they saw on stage,

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Speaker 1: and the only bands that received any kind of street

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Speaker 1: cred whatsoever, we're all dudes, and they were essentially relegated

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Speaker 1: to the back. Because if you have ever been to

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Speaker 1: a punk rock show, I'll tell you what. Those fists

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Speaker 1: and those elbows, they are a fly in. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: can break some you can catch a guy, yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And on top of the frustration with the music, there

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Speaker 1: was a lot going on within the culture as well

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Speaker 1: that was fueling the fire in these early riot girls.

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Speaker 1: Laura Barton, again in The Guardian, said that it was

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Speaker 1: spawned by anger about society's treatment of women with domestic abuse, rape, sexuality,

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Speaker 1: the need for safer streets, abortion rights and equal pay,

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Speaker 1: among the issues. Because all this is brewing in the

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Speaker 1: late eighties early nineties with the return to more conservative

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Speaker 1: values with the Reagan and Bush administrations, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of these girls were just getting fed up. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: Sarah Marcus, who's an author and was part of the

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Speaker 1: sort of the tail end of the rag ral movement,

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Speaker 1: uh said that the women's movement didn't have a language

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Speaker 1: for reaching young women. The language and ideas of riot

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Speaker 1: Girl have permeated the culture and made this more participatory, messy,

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Speaker 1: vernacular feminism available to everybody. And there it is again,

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Speaker 1: making feminism less stuffy and more appealing to young girls,

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Speaker 1: right because I think by that time, you know, the

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Speaker 1: second wave of feminism had asked and you had a

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Speaker 1: lot of these I mean, they were kind of in

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Speaker 1: the same way that early punk was initially started by

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Speaker 1: white middle class dudes, you have a lot of white

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Speaker 1: middle class and more educated. This time it's a lot

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Speaker 1: of girls on college campuses who are frustrated because they

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Speaker 1: don't know, you know, their mother's generation enjoyed this revolution

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Speaker 1: and they wanted to know where theirs was and speaking

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Speaker 1: of this kind of vernacular feminism. The way that they

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Speaker 1: did that was not only through starting up their own

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Speaker 1: punk rock movement, but also with the creation of zines

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Speaker 1: or which would be short for the fanzines that we

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Speaker 1: talked about earlier that were part of that punk rock

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Speaker 1: d I y culture. Yeah, exactly. And a lot of um,

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Speaker 1: former riot girls or evolved riot girls whatever you want

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Speaker 1: to say, that they are talk now about how blogs

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Speaker 1: have kind of taken that that's that place, Um, but

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Speaker 1: zanes were where it was at the back in the day.

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Speaker 1: And uh. In nine eight, pre riot girls girls started

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Speaker 1: up beings like Jigsaw, Chainsaw and Sister Nobody Now speaking

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Speaker 1: of the feminist punk scene. Jigsaw in nine a person

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Speaker 1: named Toby Vail wrote a piece in it talking about

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Speaker 1: her frustration that quote punk rock is for and by

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Speaker 1: boys mostly now. Toby Veil was at that time a

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Speaker 1: member of this new band that had started up called

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Speaker 1: Bikini Kill, which was the seminal riot girl punk rock

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Speaker 1: band that formed in nine nine with Veil, Billy Karen

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Speaker 1: Kathleen Hannah, who kind of became the default spokesperson for

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Speaker 1: that although she might cringe if she were to hear

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Speaker 1: that right now, uh, and Kathy Wilcox. Yeah, And that

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Speaker 1: band released its first demo tape called Revolution Girl Style

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Speaker 1: Now which actually became kind of a catchphrase for the

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Speaker 1: whole movement. Uh, they all called it a call for

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Speaker 1: all girls to start bands and zines and participate in

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Speaker 1: the making of independent culture. Yeah. And then continuing this

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Speaker 1: whole zene history in Kathleen Hannah publishes the first issue

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Speaker 1: of Bikini Kill the zine and then just going on

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Speaker 1: is another example of how this d i y zine

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Speaker 1: culture intersected with the music. Also in fellow zine makers

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Speaker 1: Alison Wolf and Molly Newman, who met at the University

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Speaker 1: of Oregon, started up Bratt Mobile, which was another one

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Speaker 1: of the huge riot girl bands. Yeah, and the movement

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Speaker 1: really gets rolling in August of because Girls Night kicks

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Speaker 1: off k Records International Pop Underground Convention, And that's kind

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Speaker 1: of it starts to be a little bit of the

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Speaker 1: tipping point right there. Yeah. I mean, thinking now of oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's a headlining night where it's all girls bands,

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Speaker 1: and you know it's gonna be loud and it's gonna

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Speaker 1: be in your face and aggressive. We might think, Okay,

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Speaker 1: no big deal. But in nine, even though it's not

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Speaker 1: that long ago, it was a huge, huge deal. And um,

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Speaker 1: that same year, allegedly there has been some dispute over

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Speaker 1: when the first actual Riot Girl meeting took place, but

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Speaker 1: supposedly it was held in d C of that year

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Speaker 1: when Bikini Kill was on tour in town. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: at the same time too, like with these Riot Girl

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Speaker 1: meetings that are happening up, it reminds me of the

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Speaker 1: whole consciousness raising aspect of second wave feminism that was

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Speaker 1: going on. So you have all of these little threads

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Speaker 1: that are coming together with punk rock. Yeah, and there

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Speaker 1: is there is some discussion out there about where the

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Speaker 1: riot Girl movement started. Was it out west with Bikini

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Speaker 1: the Bikini Kill ladies over at Evergreen State College or

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Speaker 1: was it in the East coast, on the East Coast

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Speaker 1: out in d C. Yeah, because Evergreen State College is

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Speaker 1: in Olympia, Washington, and we have Seattle nearby, and what's

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Speaker 1: going on in Seattle all the grunge just coming up

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Speaker 1: there with Nirvana, etcetera. And uh. In nineteen two, though,

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Speaker 1: Riot Girl starts to get mainstream coverage. First l A

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Speaker 1: Weekly covers it, and then USA Today and Newsweek also

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Speaker 1: cover it, and it starts to actually make the rye

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Speaker 1: girls uncomfortable. They don't want to go mainstream punk is

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Speaker 1: about the counterculture, not about being palatable for everybody. And

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Speaker 1: they were also worried about losing control of their message,

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Speaker 1: and so they started this whole kind of media blackout.

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Speaker 1: Nobody was supposed to talk to anybody. They were trying

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Speaker 1: to control their own message. And really what that led

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Speaker 1: to is a greater misunderstanding of what they stood for,

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Speaker 1: what they were performing for. You know, it became like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: these women are just making terrible music, when really, as

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Speaker 1: much as the bands were a huge part of the

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Speaker 1: ryet Girl movement, the music wasn't even the whole story.

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Speaker 1: And so their whole message kind of spun out of control.

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Speaker 1: And then and you end up with the evolution of

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Speaker 1: this movement, which leads us all the way and we'll

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Speaker 1: talk I mean, we'll talk a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: the evolution, but it really leads us all the way

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Speaker 1: up to the late nineties when the Spice Girls take control.

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Speaker 1: Right That's the thing that that was the fear about

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Speaker 1: Riot Girl going mainstream, because without the Internet and the blogosphere,

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Speaker 1: you know, Riot Girl would not have necessarily happened right now,

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Speaker 1: because we you know, it was fueled by letters being

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Speaker 1: mailed back and forth zines being produced in very small

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Speaker 1: numbers and handed out at shows at specific venues and

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Speaker 1: spreading the word about what was going on in a

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Speaker 1: very grassroots kind of way of having to set up

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Speaker 1: these collectives in d C or Olympia or wherever so

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Speaker 1: that you could get together face to face and talk

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Speaker 1: about all these issues that were going on. And for

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Speaker 1: a lot of the women, like Kathleen Hannah and the

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Speaker 1: Bikiniki girls, this was the first time that they were

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Speaker 1: really able to openly discussed issues about sexuality and their

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Speaker 1: body and and violence against them. And for a lot

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Speaker 1: of these girls, this was the first time that they

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Speaker 1: were really able to tackle those issues of sexuality, of abortion,

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Speaker 1: of dating, violence, things that really real things that were happening.

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Speaker 1: But in the way that we have the Internet now

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Speaker 1: and all the blogs that we can talk about it

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Speaker 1: at nauseum, there was no outlet before Riot Girl. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this was definitely a way to meet other women

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Speaker 1: and young girls and think, Okay, I'm not alone in this.

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Speaker 1: I'm not the only one who's frustrated and feeling, you know,

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Speaker 1: like everybody's against me basically, right. And it was also

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Speaker 1: undergirded by the fact that a lot of this was

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Speaker 1: happening around college campuses. A lot of these girls were

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Speaker 1: you know, becoming well versed in feminist theory and you know,

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Speaker 1: thinking more about the male gaze and what that meant

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Speaker 1: and how it translated to uh, this punk culture that

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Speaker 1: they were very much a part of. Yeah, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: we talked a little bit about how the riot girl

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Speaker 1: culture has sort of rekindled, especially with the pussy riot

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Speaker 1: stuff going on in Russia. Um, this pushback against the

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Speaker 1: politics and the culture over there, it's gotten people talking

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Speaker 1: about previous feminist movements over here. And so an NPR

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Speaker 1: story asked, you know, is the rekindled interest because of

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Speaker 1: just nostalgia? Are are people like Kathleen Hannah just taken

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Speaker 1: a look back and thinking, oh, that was fun um

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Speaker 1: Or is it part of something bigger? And the hope

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Speaker 1: is that it's a moment of recognition similar to the

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Speaker 1: one that launched the movement in the first place, the

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Speaker 1: rigral movement in the first place. The concern, as Sarah Door,

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Speaker 1: who's a musician and Portland State University professor, is that

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Speaker 1: the interest is just a nostalgic longing for authentic community

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Speaker 1: rather than a practical engagement in radical politics. And I

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Speaker 1: think that makes a lot of sense that concerned that

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Speaker 1: um that Sarah Doe expresses because you know, even though

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Speaker 1: we have platform endless platforms online to express r P

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Speaker 1: our feelings and our politics. UM, it's so fast paced.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's almost like you can send out a

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Speaker 1: tweet and then that's all it is. It's not actual

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Speaker 1: feet on the streets. So I can understand why there is, um,

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Speaker 1: there's some concern about you know, what do we have

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Speaker 1: now with it? Because also to the riot girl movement

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Speaker 1: didn't last that long by it was over, but Kinnie

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Speaker 1: Kill was over, the movement was pretty much over at

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Speaker 1: that time. It was unfortunately being co opted and re

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Speaker 1: converted into yes, the Spice girls. UM. And no, I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying that the Spice Girls were Riot girls. Don't don't.

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Speaker 1: Don't misunderstand me. But it flared up and then because

402
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Speaker 1: of the mainstream coverage, it kind of it kind of dissipated. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it has had really interesting effects because as those

404
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Speaker 1: Riot girls grew up, went wherever they went, when to college,

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Speaker 1: got jobs. It's it's re emerged as something else. Now

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Speaker 1: these women are looking at younger girls and saying how

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Speaker 1: can we help. So now you have things like the

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Speaker 1: Girls Rock Camp Alliance, and you have lady Fests where

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Speaker 1: bands get together and say we're gonna celebrate women. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna celebrate women in rock. Yeah. And Kathleen Hannah also

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Speaker 1: made a documentary um in two thousand eleven called who

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Speaker 1: Took the Bomb Latigra on Tour And Latigra was a

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Speaker 1: band that she was in post Bikini Kill, And she

414
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Speaker 1: made this documentary because of concern about the erasure of

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Speaker 1: the nineties feminist movement, because you know, at the time

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Speaker 1: she was one of the main ones who was afraid

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Speaker 1: of overexposure and was worried about being misrepresented. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time she's looking back and saying, oh, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't document it as a result. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And so now she says that she's making good art

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Speaker 1: and wants people to actually see it since they stopped

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Speaker 1: performing together, so she wanted to a record of Hey, here,

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Speaker 1: this band existed and we were doing cool things. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And for anyone who's living in New York, you can

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Speaker 1: see an example of the preservation of Riot Girl because

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Speaker 1: in June two thousand eleven, Kathleen Hannah and other Ride

427
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: Girl musicians donated personal papers, letters, zines, images, and journals

428
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: to the Fails Collection at n y use Bops Library

429
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: for a Riot Girl archive, which I think is pretty cool. Yeah.

430
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: And Sarah Marcus, as we mentioned earlier, is one of

431
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: those people taking a look back and her book Girls

432
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 1: to the Front. I just read a preview of it.

433
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 1: I didn't read the whole thing, but it is. It's

434
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 1: very interesting. It's very interesting, and it really examines the

435
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: rise and fall of the whole movement and the whole

436
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 1: the explosion, how it spawned all these different movements, like

437
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: I mentioned with Girls Rock and Ladyfest. Yeah, and again

438
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 1: you know when they when people ask former ride girls.

439
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,120
Speaker 1: Although that's another thing though too, should we call them

440
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 1: former write girls? Is it once a riot girl, always

441
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: a write girl? Are we riot girls? Caroline? I don't know,

442
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: I mean, is it more of Yeah? I mean that's

443
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 1: another question I have. Maybe I hope there's a riot

444
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: girl there listening who can who can tell me that? Um?

445
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: But yeah, when you when you talk to Carrie Brownstein

446
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 1: or Kathleen Hannah about this, they say, I don't know

447
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 1: that you wouldn't necessarily need it now because you have

448
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 1: the Internet. Kathleen Hannah also said, you know, she tells

449
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: people don't force it, like should we you know, reignite

450
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 1: riot girl, And she says, well, do out force it.

451
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: It was organic, So if something like that's gonna happen,

452
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: it needs to just happen. And so she said this

453
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: in the wake of the whole pussy riot arrest and

454
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 1: subsequent sentencing, um that maybe this is the spark. Yeah,

455
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,959
Speaker 1: And I think that it's uh, it's telling that in

456
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 1: the early nineties there was what these women felt like

457
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 1: was a cultural war going on against women, and now

458
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: with the look back at right girl, the nostalgia for

459
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: it with even though I mean, yes, it's spawned by

460
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 1: you know, or triggered by something going on in Russia

461
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: with pussy right, But at the same time, all these

462
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: conversations are happening in a cultural climate that yet again

463
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: is talking about reproductive rights and women's bodies a whole

464
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: lot in a way that I haven't heard in a

465
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: long time in terms of people making decisions on our

466
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: behalves about what we should do with our bodies. So

467
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: I think that it is, like you said earlier, maybe

468
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 1: part of a cycle that's going on, and maybe we

469
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: do need right Girl. Yet again, you need a caped crusader. Well,

470
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: right girls, she says, not not a single riot girl

471
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 1: to save the day. So maybe for to close things off,

472
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 1: we talked about uh punk rock, right girls, and obviously

473
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 1: we cannot fit in the entire history of women in

474
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 1: punk rock and right girls into a single podcast. But

475
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: if you want to listen to some seminal ladies in punk,

476
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 1: how about some suggestions. Flavor Pill had a list, uh

477
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: courtesy of Judy Burman of iconic women in punk to

478
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: listen to, and she names Courtney Love, who, funnily enough

479
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: Palooza got in trouble because she punched Kathleen Hannah in

480
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: the face. Yeah, so Courtney Love and Hull still, you know,

481
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: give it a listen, Kim Gordon, Sonic Youth, p J Harvey,

482
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: Carrie Brownstein, who you can also see on the Fabulous

483
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: Portlandia Woman Can Do Anything. Beth Ditto of Gossip is

484
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: one of the current punk rock icons. Um, Debbie Harry

485
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: from Blondie, Uh, Susie Sue Joan Jet of course one

486
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: of the originals. So there's a lot out there to

487
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: listen to. I wish we could have a just all

488
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: this music streaming in the background. Yeah. Well, I want

489
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: to hear from people who were part of the movement. Yeah,

490
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: people who are at the punk shows ripping their jeans

491
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: and whatever spike and their hair, ripping jeans, making the zanes,

492
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: and people who are making zcenes today. I know that

493
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: the zine making is not a relic of a bygone era.

494
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: It's still happening, and I think it's Uh, it's great.

495
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: Keep it, keep the d I y stuff and send

496
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: us some Yes, maybe we should start a zne Maybe.

497
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: So many things to do, so send us your letters.

498
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: Mom stuff at Discovery dot com. And we have a

499
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: couple of letters to share with you today about our

500
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: episode on Friends with x is Can you be friends

501
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: with the people that you've loved? Wait? Yes you can? So,

502
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: I've got one here from Joshua, and he writes, I

503
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: had finally decided, literally today to request this episode. I'm

504
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: so glad to hear about how weird yet normal. I am.

505
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: My ex fiancee and I are best friends to this day.

506
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: A brief timeline three years dating, three years in gay

507
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: she breaks up with me. We take about a month

508
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: off with no contact before deciding why not stay friends.

509
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: We were great friends, so for the first couple of months,

510
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: I do admit I had hopes we would some day

511
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: get back together. But it turns out we're so much

512
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: better now just as friends than we ever were before.

513
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: I know this puts me in the minority, but that's

514
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 1: certainly not new to me. We've only been best friends,

515
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: or been only best friends, not fiance's and lovers for

516
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: about three years. Now. She's seeing someone else and I'm

517
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,479
Speaker 1: happily single. If I could give a piece of advice

518
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: to men who are in my position, it would be

519
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: to not fool yourself about expectations. Don't fake friendships with

520
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: a secret desire to get back together, or you will

521
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: pay for it in the long run. And if you

522
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: decide to read this on air, and we did, shout

523
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: out to listener, Amanda the best best friend I could

524
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: ask for. That's really sweet. That's nice. I like that. Okay,

525
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: this is from Serenia. She says that out of all

526
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: my friends, I think I'm the only one who's been

527
00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: able to maintain some form of friendship with most of

528
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: my exes. I've been the dumpy and all but my

529
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: last relationship, and I gotta say it's a lot easier

530
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: to stay friends when I've been dumped my dumber story.

531
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: When someone breaks up with someone else, it's usually because

532
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: they're over them, So as the dumpy, I just need

533
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: some time to get over the guy and our friendship

534
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: would continue as it was before we dated. But as

535
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: the dumper, I'm clueless as to when my ex boyfriend

536
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: will be healed enough to be friends. I broke up

537
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: with him more than a year ago. We were together

538
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: for nine months, and I don't go out of the

539
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: way to talk to him. He followed all of the

540
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: rules that you mentioned in the podcast, including blocking me

541
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: on Facebook. But when we do see each other, I'm

542
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: polite and I give him cordial greetings with the occasional

543
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: joke or banter. He tends to keep his eyes away

544
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: and avoids extended conversation. I understand what he's going through,

545
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: but I wish there was some way for us to

546
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,959
Speaker 1: get over this awkward stage. My friends poke fun at

547
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: me and tell me I'm crazy for wanting to stay

548
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: friends with all my exes, but I honestly hate feeling

549
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: awkward around a person I once shared good times with.

550
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: My dumpy story. I had a brief four months relationship

551
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: with a guy in high school who is so far

552
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,479
Speaker 1: the only one to have broken my heart. She's twenty two.

553
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: By the way, Our friendship has been on and off

554
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: since we broke up four years ago, because every time

555
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: we start getting closed, my feelings for him re emerge.

556
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: He's so charming, and sometimes even he starts feeling like

557
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: he wants to get back together. So this day I

558
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: sometimes reminisce and wish we'd worked out, But then I

559
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: make sure to remember all the reasons our relationship failed

560
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: and all the ways were incompatible. Now that we've grown

561
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: up a bit, your podcast really hit home and I

562
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: definitely see that I have to set some boundaries with

563
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: both my lapt X and the high school X. I

564
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: need to avoid hurting the former and being hurt more

565
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: by the ladder. So thank you for your perspectives running indeed,

566
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: and thanks to everyone who's written in mom Stuff at

567
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: Discovery dot com is where you can send your letters.

568
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: And don't forget, our next episode is going to be

569
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: on Pussy Riot, so tune in for that. In the meantime.

570
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: Hit us up on Facebook, follow us on Twitter at

571
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast. Why don't you check out our brand

572
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: spanking new blog over at Tumbler where stuff mom never

573
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: told you doct humbler dot com. And why don't you

574
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: go and enrich your brain over at our website, It's

575
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. For more on this and

576
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot

577
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: com Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.

578
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: It's ready, are you