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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It is Monday, July twenty first,

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Speaker 2: and listen, we have a stacked night of deadlines. Listen.

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Speaker 2: The dentist that we've been talking about all week trial

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Speaker 2: continues and we're going to unpack sort of who has

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Speaker 2: been testifying against him, because it seems like the information

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Speaker 2: is stacking up against this dentist. Also, do you remember

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Speaker 2: the slender Man. Slender Man was this fictional character and

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Speaker 2: two young girls literally brutally attacked another twelve year old

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Speaker 2: and one of those two is being released from a

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Speaker 2: psychiatric ward. So we're going to unpack that story as well.

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Speaker 2: And then last night we talked about the case of

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Speaker 2: Anna wall and Anna Walsh was allegedly, allegedly allegedly murdered

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Speaker 2: by her husband and that has some connective tissue to

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Speaker 2: Karen Reid. So we're coming with a lot of Karen

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Speaker 2: Reid rest assured. But first Epstein. This Epstein thing continues

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Speaker 2: to heat up, and it's a Monday. We learned last

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Speaker 2: week that Friday is when the White House buries all

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Speaker 2: of the news. But here we are on Monday, and

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Speaker 2: it's back from both sides. So we want to kick in.

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Speaker 2: But first, I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I head up KAT Studios,

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Speaker 2: where I get to make true crime podcasts and documentaries.

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Speaker 2: I get to do that every night alongside crime expert

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Speaker 2: and producer Courtney Armstrong and also crime analyst and host

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Speaker 2: Body Movin. You'll remember her from Donut with Katz, the

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Speaker 2: Netflix documentary and listen, we love hearing from you. So

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Speaker 2: eight eight eight three to one Crime, jump in call

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Speaker 2: us anytime. You can also leave us a talkback, which

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Speaker 2: is kind of like a voice memo. Basically, you download

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Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app. It's free, and you push the right

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Speaker 2: hand corner top right, and you can leave a little

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Speaker 2: message and you're on the show. And now you could

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Speaker 2: also leave us a voicemail. We're going old school eight

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Speaker 2: eight eight three one Crime and last, you could also

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Speaker 2: hit us up on our socials at True Crime Tonight

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Speaker 2: show on TikTok and Instagram, or at True Crime Tonight

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Speaker 2: on Facebook. So but first, here we go, Courtney Armstrong,

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Speaker 2: let's talk Einstein and I mean Jeffrey Epstein. Yes, that's

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Speaker 2: how they have to say it now on TikTok because

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Speaker 2: he's getting banned from everything, big time, big time. Actually,

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Speaker 2: before we even get there, Courtney Armstrong, sorry to cut

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Speaker 2: you off, we have a talk back. Hello.

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Speaker 3: I was just calling to say I appreciate the show.

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Speaker 3: You guys make my drives home very interesting and easier

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Speaker 3: to deal with after a long shift. I do turn

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Speaker 3: to the radio station to find you guys. I get

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Speaker 3: sad when I don't cut you, but when I do,

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Speaker 3: I make sure I'm like hops In and turn up

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Speaker 3: volume as much as I can, and I get sad.

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Speaker 3: And there's commercials because you know the radio keep doing

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Speaker 3: what you're doing. You guys are awesome and I love

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Speaker 3: how oh you guys, I don't know. Your voices are

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Speaker 3: very soothing.

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Speaker 2: Okay, we started the history of time? Also sweet Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so no, she she left. That was a voicemail.

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Speaker 4: So again, you can give us a call at eighty

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Speaker 4: eight thirty one time and leave us a voicemail if

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Speaker 4: we don't answer the phone or if we're you know,

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Speaker 4: if we're live, We'll ontwer the phone.

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Speaker 2: You could be on the show. But that was so nice,

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Speaker 2: That was so thoughtful. Thank you. That's what we want.

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Speaker 4: We want people to feel like we're all sitting together,

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Speaker 4: you know, you're just gabbing with your girls about the latest.

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Speaker 4: That's the feeling we want. And hopefully the person that

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Speaker 4: left the voicemail feels the love. And if you don't

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Speaker 4: love us, you can call still too.

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Speaker 2: That's okay. Also, yes, well I am a fragile ego. Okay,

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Speaker 2: don't do that. Yeah, speaking of gradulate egos. So what

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Speaker 2: is going on with all things Trump and Epstein? It

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Speaker 2: seems like it's heating up on both sides. And I'm

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Speaker 2: just going to go ahead and say it. I think

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Speaker 2: this is the biggest scandal in our history. And I

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Speaker 2: really do. And I know that's saying a ton, but listen,

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Speaker 2: what is the most hideous crime that we could all agree,

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Speaker 2: no matter what side of the fence you're on, we

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Speaker 2: could all agree trafficking young women and torturing them and

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Speaker 2: sexually abusing them. I think everybody can agree that's a

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Speaker 2: very very bad thing, as bad as it gets right.

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Speaker 2: And here we are potentially world leaders, very high profile

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Speaker 2: people at the bottom of what is the worst of

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Speaker 2: the worst, and I think we need to know more.

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Speaker 5: Well, you are not alone, Stephanie, because almost everyone unanimously

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Speaker 5: is screaming for more information what is behind the cover.

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Speaker 5: So just today the House decided it will not take

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Speaker 5: a vote this week on forcing them release of the files,

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Speaker 5: the Epstein related files.

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Speaker 2: Republicans have opted.

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Speaker 5: To give the administration a little bit more time to

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Speaker 5: act voluntarily. And yeah, body is making a crazy face,

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Speaker 5: but I agree. So the weight is on. We don't

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Speaker 5: there's no gas pedal to it right now. And for

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Speaker 5: those who have been missing the news, Jeffrey Ebstein is

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Speaker 5: of course a financier, wildly wealthy or living a wildly

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Speaker 5: wealthy life facing federal sex trafficking charges. So he died

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Speaker 5: in twenty nineteen in prison by hanging. That's also in

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Speaker 5: dispute of whether it was suicidal. It has been deemed

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Speaker 5: or not, as many many people, most prominently medical experts,

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Speaker 5: believe that it was not suicide. So yeah, lawmakers from

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Speaker 5: both parties have been pushing for the release of.

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Speaker 2: Because it's mutually assured destruction. It's mutually That's why I'm

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Speaker 2: saying it's this is not a small matter. We cannot

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Speaker 2: just like and this is I hope it goes away.

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Speaker 2: We should be focusing on this, not that. No, no,

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Speaker 2: there's a that and that that is very important because

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Speaker 2: the people on that list are affecting a lot of

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Speaker 2: our lives in ways that we're not even aware of.

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Speaker 2: That's number one. Even Glaye Maxwell's brother, Gilaine Maxwell, is

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Speaker 2: allegedly his not allegedly, she was convicted of it federally,

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Speaker 2: being his right hand woman, she was sort of the groomer.

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Speaker 2: We're looking for better words for grooming, by the way,

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Speaker 2: So eight aight, eight three one crime. Keep that convo going.

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Speaker 2: But Gilaine Maxwell would basically groom young women, really young,

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Speaker 2: like thirteen year olds, you know, to go and maybe

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Speaker 2: go give massages to this very high profile man in

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Speaker 2: exchange for you know, getting into a certain school or

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Speaker 2: maybe getting into an art program, you know, young young girls,

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Speaker 2: and then they would be lured allegedly to this island,

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Speaker 2: their passports would be taken, and then they would be

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Speaker 2: sexually assaulted, only to be returned home for nobody to

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Speaker 2: believe them. The number one whistleblower we talked about this,

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Speaker 2: I recognized nauseum. Virginia Dufray lost her life. She committed suicide.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, back in April of twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 2: so pretty recently, so Jill's MI coincidence, regardless of what

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Speaker 2: the chatter is. And again I don't mean this in

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Speaker 2: a conspiracy way. It's just interesting timeline that the person

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Speaker 2: who probably knows the most is no longer here to

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Speaker 2: discuss it, Jeffrey Epstein. You know, we're told as recently

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Speaker 2: as two and a half weeks ago that it was

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Speaker 2: definitely a suicide, no questions here. But yet so many

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Speaker 2: very real medical officials are saying otherwise, including Gilay Maxwell's brother,

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Speaker 2: who really has no skin in this game other than

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Speaker 2: he likes his sister. He's also saying that he has

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Speaker 2: reports that it was not a suicide, meaning Epstein did

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Speaker 2: not commit suicide. So it's really big stuff, and I

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Speaker 2: think that everybody we have to stay focused a little

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Speaker 2: bit on it. I don't know what the big cover

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Speaker 2: up is and nor do I even have a speculation,

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Speaker 2: but it seems I don't know, it seems dangerous.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And on the topic of Gilan Mack, her brother

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Speaker 5: Ian Maxwell, he has had a lot to say. Just recently,

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Speaker 5: he told the publication that his sister Geiling does not

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Speaker 5: believe that Epstein died by suicide, has said Stephanie, and

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Speaker 5: also that she feels endangered in prison.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to True Crime tonight on iHeart Radio.

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Speaker 4: I'm body move in and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong

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Speaker 4: and Stephanie Lidecker and we're right in the middle of

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Speaker 4: this ein Einstein.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, because that's what they make you say

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Speaker 2: it on social media. Many people are getting kicked off

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Speaker 2: using the word Epstein.

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Speaker 4: Epstein, That's what I was anything Now, Now, give us a

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Speaker 4: call at eighty eight thirty one Crime if you want

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Speaker 4: to weigh in, or use the talkbacks on the iHeart

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Speaker 4: Radio app.

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Speaker 2: And we have a talkback right now.

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Speaker 6: Oh hi, Gus, I have a quick question.

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Speaker 2: I love you. Wonder hell.

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Speaker 3: Jeffrey Epstein got out his money.

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Speaker 7: Do you guys have any input in that?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Thank you?

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Speaker 4: Go ahead, stephan Well, I mean we I can do

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Speaker 4: it too, go for it. So he had an early

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Speaker 4: career on Wall Street, so he was basically in stocks,

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Speaker 4: and then he created a financial consulting company for like

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Speaker 4: the super wealthy, and it was like in the eighties

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Speaker 4: and it was called Jay Epstein and Co. And you

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Speaker 4: know he was This is is interesting. He was famously

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Speaker 4: secret about his client list.

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Speaker 2: Well, where did he get this money to be such

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Speaker 2: a fancy finance here firm, I guess is the larger question?

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Speaker 2: Well that's the okay, So you're going to talk about

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Speaker 2: what's his name? Listen, It's just it's been reported wildly.

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Speaker 2: This is not a personal theory. Les Wexler, who owned Wexler, Yes,

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Speaker 2: less Wexler, who owns like the Limited if you remember

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Speaker 2: that clothing store that was really really popular back in

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Speaker 2: the day. Victoria's Secret, for example, he's like a bajillionaire,

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Speaker 2: and it's always been alleged that there was some sort

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Speaker 2: of finance trail to him. He also was a teacher

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Speaker 2: at one point, Jeffrey Epstein, even though he had no credentials,

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Speaker 2: at a very fancy, high profile New York school Dalton

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Speaker 2: that some connective tissue back to Robert oh what is

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Speaker 2: his name, the former General Attorney.

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Speaker 4: Some people believe like his wealth was like really inflated

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Speaker 4: and like kind of like he's a cod a facade.

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Speaker 4: And there's widespread claims that Epstein used blackmail and compromant,

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Speaker 4: which is, you know, compromising material on powerful people to

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Speaker 4: gain influence.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting.

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Speaker 5: And also, Stephanie, I know you said alleged to be

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Speaker 5: careful about the connection between Epstein and the owner of

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Speaker 5: what Victoria's secret, et cetera, the richest man in Ohio.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's not alleged.

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Speaker 5: I mean there he Epstein was his had power of

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Speaker 5: attorney and he controlled all of his finances, and several

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Speaker 5: properties were exchanged between the two men, but also shrouded

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Speaker 5: in many multiple different shot like shadow companies.

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Speaker 2: So no, it's fact. Thank you for reminding me. I

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Speaker 2: get a little free to talk about this. Somehow, I

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Speaker 2: feel like we're supposed to be talking in code words

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Speaker 2: or something, but here we are putting ourselves out there.

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Speaker 2: But it is Listen, there is some real tentacles to this,

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Speaker 2: and it seems like if you map it a little bit,

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Speaker 2: and we're in the early stages doing of this. Jeffrey

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Speaker 2: Epstein lived many lives, none of them really made sense.

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Speaker 2: It's almost he was like a walking house of cards. Really.

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Speaker 2: So if we're talking about the island, and these are

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Speaker 2: some of the theories, air quotes or the chatter again,

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Speaker 2: this is not conspiracy talk. This is things that have

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Speaker 2: been reported in the press, in the news real time.

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Speaker 2: Is that when that island was gone through, there were

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Speaker 2: video cameras and it appeared that there were cameras everywhere.

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Speaker 2: So if we're going back to the original allegation that

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Speaker 2: he was working as some sort of an agent for

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Speaker 2: larger forces, I don't know what those are. If he

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Speaker 2: was putting very important people and compromising positions with young

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Speaker 2: women and there was tape to prove it, what better

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Speaker 2: blackmail do you need? That makes it really important? Now

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Speaker 2: cut to real time. Here we are today. There are

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Speaker 2: world wars everywhere, seemingly or at least the chatter of

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Speaker 2: a lot of it, right, and we're in a scary place.

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Speaker 2: And listen, how do you believe anything if we can't

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Speaker 2: believe anything? Well, and that's I think part of it.

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Speaker 2: As like a math teacher, didn't he start out as

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Speaker 2: a math teacher. He was like a math professor at Dalton,

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Speaker 2: which is a very prestigious school. That's where he met

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Speaker 2: a lot of wealthy families.

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Speaker 4: And from there he went to like bear Stearns and

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Speaker 4: worked you know stocks and you know, investing money for

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Speaker 4: really wealthy families, and I think that's where he started

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Speaker 4: making all these connections, obviously, and then he went to

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Speaker 4: his own firm and of course got richer and richer

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Speaker 4: and richer. But it is alleged that he used blackmail

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Speaker 4: and whatnot back then, which is very interesting in.

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Speaker 2: Mind, it seems to have been working, and now somehow,

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Speaker 2: mysteriously it's like, oh no, there's no blackmail waits. Everybody

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Speaker 2: was saying, it's all blackmail, so much blackmail. Oh my goodness,

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Speaker 2: the blackmail. And now that it's time to put up

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Speaker 2: or it's like nothing to see here. And that just

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Speaker 2: makes us all feel a little uneasy about the many

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Speaker 2: decisions being made in the world right now. And that's

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Speaker 2: really the truth of it, you know. It's a little

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Speaker 2: bit of like liar liar, pants on fire. One time's fine,

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Speaker 2: two times fine. Now it seems like we can't trust anything.

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Speaker 4: Well, we're going to be doing a deep dive into

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Speaker 4: the James Craig case, the dentist of you accused of

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Speaker 4: killing his wife with poisoned protein shakes and later a

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Speaker 4: slender man. The girl is a weight walking free keep

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Speaker 4: it here at true five tonight, You guys might remember

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Speaker 4: the slender Man case where two young girls stabbed brutally

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Speaker 4: a third twelve year old one of the two.

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Speaker 2: That was accused. They've been spending time in psychiatric care.

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Speaker 2: One is getting released this week, so we're going to

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Speaker 2: unpack that case a little bit. And then also this

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Speaker 2: Anna Walsh case. Anna Walsh allegedly was killed by her husband, Brian,

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Speaker 2: and that has some real close connections to the same

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Speaker 2: investigator that was also slightly problematic in the Karen Reid case.

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Speaker 2: But first, more about this dentist. This dentist in Colorado

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Speaker 2: who allegedly killed his wife, mother of six, with eye drops. So, body,

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Speaker 2: do you want to fill us in because I know

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Speaker 2: it was a full day in the courthouse today.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so today was kind of focused on all the

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Speaker 4: medical professionals that worked on the victim. So medical professionals

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Speaker 4: were called to testify today. As proceedings continue in the

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Speaker 4: murder trial of James Craig, I'm going to remove the

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Speaker 4: doctor from his name because screw him, right. The Colorado

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Speaker 4: dentists and father of six accused of fatally poisoning his wife, Angela.

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Speaker 4: She was forty three years old, mother of his six children.

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Speaker 4: And it's alleged, allegedly, allegedly, allegedly that he poisoned her

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Speaker 4: with potassium cyanide and arsenic and put them in an

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Speaker 4: eye dropper and then gave her drops and her protein

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Speaker 4: shakes that she would have in the mornings. And he

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Speaker 4: did this in order to pursue a new romantic life.

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Speaker 2: This is the.

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Speaker 4: Stuff of nightmares, right, So Peter sawtile doctor Peter Stottile.

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Speaker 4: I hope I'm saying his last name right, and I apologize,

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Speaker 4: but it's it's a no name. So he's a physician

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Speaker 4: at the University of Colorado, and he took the stand.

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Speaker 4: The court does consider him an expert in hospital medicine

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Speaker 4: and specifically palmonology, and he treated Angela. He told James,

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Speaker 4: the perpetrator in this case, that Angela was likely braindead,

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Speaker 4: and James's response was somewhat unusual.

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Speaker 2: He said.

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Speaker 4: The doctor said that he told James about Angela's condition,

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Speaker 4: and he responded to the effect of, well, that's unfortunate,

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Speaker 4: like real black weird, yeah, like real, like, well that's unfortunately,

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Speaker 4: that's unfortunate.

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Speaker 2: Like that's what I say.

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Speaker 5: If I spill a little of my coffee, if I

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Speaker 5: spill my whole cup, I have a bigger reaction than fortunate.

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Speaker 4: No, that's a really good analogy, Like, yeah, like that's unfortunate.

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Speaker 4: It was just unusual. He said that James's response was lackluster,

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Speaker 4: and when given the option of continuing care, he said

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Speaker 4: that they should stop care, as if that's what Angela

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Speaker 4: would have wanted. He said, in his clinical experience, this

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Speaker 4: discussion takes several days, but he didn't see any grief

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Speaker 4: or hesitation from the from the dentist James, he thinks

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Speaker 4: that they could have gone in different directions with Angela's care,

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Speaker 4: and the decision to continue or to stop is nuanced

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Speaker 4: and complicated, right, like you have to weigh You're going

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Speaker 4: to be weighing like, okay, well, if she's brain dead

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Speaker 4: and they want to try this, what will her quality

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Speaker 4: of life be? You know, you have to go through

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Speaker 4: all these motions. And it seemed like he was just like,

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Speaker 4: she wouldn't have wanted that, Yeah, pulled the plug kind

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Speaker 4: of situation. And he told the defense that he's seen

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Speaker 4: people in just all kinds of things. He said he

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Speaker 4: usually does get a history on if patients invest something themselves,

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Speaker 4: whether it's you know, a note, you know, like maybe

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Speaker 4: somebody is killing themselves, they'll leave a note or a

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Speaker 4: pill bottle. However, he said it's not always the patient

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Speaker 4: who says they're the ones who took something. He said,

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Speaker 4: everyone's grief looks different and no reaction is less common,

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Speaker 4: but it does happen, so he didn't really think too

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Speaker 4: much of it, but he did know that it was unusual.

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Speaker 4: There was a lot of testimony today. Another person that

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Speaker 4: testified was Angela's friend Nicole Harmon, and they've been best

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Speaker 4: friends for a really long time and in twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 4: if you remember, we've talked about this before, there was

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Speaker 4: a previous attempt on Angela's life by her husband and

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Speaker 4: when Nicole, this is the friend Nicole Harmon, learned about this,

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Speaker 4: their friendship kind of got strained, and she thinks it

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Speaker 4: was you know, Angela was maybe ashamed or you know,

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Speaker 4: feeling weird about it, but they still remain friends and

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Speaker 4: Nicole her friend. Angela called Nicole on one of the

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Speaker 4: mornings that she took the eye Drop smoothie and said

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Speaker 4: that she wasn't feeling well and could she come over

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Speaker 4: and bring her like diabetic testing kit for blood sugar.

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Speaker 4: She thought maybe her blood sugar was low. So she

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Speaker 4: went over and she said that Angela was sitting on

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Speaker 4: the couch with the kids watching cartoons and she had

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Speaker 4: noticed this protein shake on the end table.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe it was like soured protein or something, she thought.

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Speaker 4: She thought, yeah, and then she had to take her

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Speaker 4: daughter to school. So she took her daughter to school,

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Speaker 4: and when she came back, Angela had gone to the hospital. Wow, yeah,

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Speaker 4: with something very dire. She knew, Yeah, she absolutely knew.

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Speaker 4: She said that Angela told her James made her that smoothie.

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Speaker 2: In the morning.

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Speaker 4: She texted James who said it could it was probably

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Speaker 4: the rona.

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Speaker 2: He said, that's the oh, coronavirus. Yes, so after Angela's test,

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Speaker 2: is weighing in on the coronavirus.

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Speaker 4: After Angela went to the hospital, you know, her friend

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Speaker 4: Nicole was texting to find out what was going on,

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Speaker 4: and the dentist, James said, it's the rona, which is

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Speaker 4: interesting because they didn't any indication that it was coronavirus

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Speaker 4: at the hospital, so he totally lied, you know, he like, oh,

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Speaker 4: don't look here, you know, don't bother. She's fine. She's

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Speaker 4: going to be in the hospital for a couple of days.

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Speaker 4: Very interesting, I thought the other people who testified. Let

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Speaker 4: me get my notes here. Nurse Rose testified. She said,

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Speaker 4: on March fifteenth, Angela arrived dizzy and after some testing,

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Speaker 4: she left briefly. James returned and reported arm pain, and

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Speaker 4: then Angela started suffering full body convulsions. This triggered an

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Speaker 4: emergency response and they drew blood. Observed James taking photos

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Speaker 4: from the hallway. He had never seen this behavior during

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Speaker 4: emergent care. She had never seen this kind of behavior

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Speaker 4: from somebody in emergent care. Yeah, he was acting very

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Speaker 4: strange and taking pictures of his wife convulsing. Well, we

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Speaker 4: learned that he sent one of the pictures to his girlfriend.

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Speaker 4: Oh this guy, yeah, what mm hmm he sent He

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Speaker 4: was having an affair, well, probably a couple. He had

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Speaker 4: confessed to Nicole. There's a lot of players here, you guys.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to keep track of about Nicole is her

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Speaker 2: friend all right, that I had just talked about, And

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Speaker 2: he had told Nicole that they were all really good friends,

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Speaker 2: they were like family friends, that he was a sex addict.

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Speaker 2: There are a lot of layers.

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Speaker 5: If you if you want to weigh in and ask

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Speaker 5: some questions or help qualify or help us write a

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Speaker 5: tree of what's going on. In this case, we're at

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Speaker 5: eight at eight three one prime. Yeah, what are your

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Speaker 5: thoughts on this stentis? He's been all over the news

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Speaker 5: and was his poor wife. Actually I don't even want

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Speaker 5: to give breath to what he's saying right now, but.

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Speaker 2: No, but it's one of your thoughts there was. I

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Speaker 2: was reading some articles about, you know how dentists. We've

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Speaker 2: heard this before, that dentist in general, this is a

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Speaker 2: chat GPT agrees that sometimes they have a higher rate

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Speaker 2: of depression because they have solitude, they have a lot

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Speaker 2: of anxiety. Nobody really goes to the dentist for a

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Speaker 2: good time only go in very short, uncomfortable stints, and

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Speaker 2: you know, there is the doctor for a good time out.

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Speaker 2: I mean, doctors have the same problem.

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Speaker 7: Do you?

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Speaker 2: Apparently dentists have it more Really statistically, I'd always absolutely

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Speaker 2: heard that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, listen, we have a voicemail that we'd love to

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Speaker 5: hear right now.

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Speaker 8: Okay, Hey, what's up guys. Great show. This is my

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Speaker 8: first time actually listening to it, and it's awesome. I'm

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Speaker 8: definitely going to be listening much more often. And this

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Speaker 8: is also the first time I'm hearing about the dentist,

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Speaker 8: and just a quick question, with all of this evidence

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Speaker 8: stacking up against him, the letter to his daughter, these

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Speaker 8: opportunities to try to get other people to write suicide notes,

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Speaker 8: and ordering the poisons to be shipped to his office,

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Speaker 8: Like how did he think he was going to get

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Speaker 8: away with it? And like what is his excuse when

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Speaker 8: all of this evidence is like brought to light? What

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Speaker 8: is he saying? Yeah, thanks for letting me know.

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Speaker 9: Hope to hear you guys.

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Speaker 2: There by Now, great call, great call, Thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for calling.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, he I mean what he thought prior Who knows

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Speaker 5: what the dentist was thinking, but what he's saying now

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Speaker 5: with his defense team is really the strategy seems to

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Speaker 5: be to put the now deceased wife Angela and say

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Speaker 5: that she was the one. She was emotionally manipulative, she

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Speaker 5: was mentally unstable, and.

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Speaker 4: Her friend did testify that she was not manipulative and

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Speaker 4: not very best friends her very best friend.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and listen, people break up, relationships, end marriages, don't

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Speaker 2: always work out. People fall in love with other people.

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Speaker 2: That's one thing, and fifty percent of the country allegedly

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Speaker 2: that happens due However, you killing your wife and you

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Speaker 2: think you're so above the law that you're going to

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Speaker 2: have cyanide in arsenic delivered to your office and that

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Speaker 2: no one's going to notice. Like this guy was a

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Speaker 2: courtnying with her favorite word, megalomaniac.

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Speaker 4: Yes, that's what it's humans, right, it's hubris that the

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Speaker 4: two kids that he's bounding back. I think, yeah, he's

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Speaker 4: like that, he's on like this larger than life ego

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Speaker 4: that he's probably got, you know, to get him by.

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Speaker 4: And quite frankly, you know, he's basically saying, like Courtney

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Speaker 4: said that he's blaming the victim. Yeah, he's blaming there.

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Speaker 4: He's suicidal. She was suicidal, she tried this before. He's

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Speaker 4: blaming her. And I don't listen, there's too much going

432
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 4: against him. Another doctor that testified today, doctor Justin Bauer.

433
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 4: He's a forensic toxologist. He confirmed that blood levels when

434
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,400
Speaker 4: they did the toxology that such rapid onset and high

435
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 4: blood levels suggests a second dose was administered while Angela

436
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 4: was in the hospital.

437
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 2: Like this guy, so he's basically killing his wife while

438
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 2: there are nurses, doctors and loved ones and phasians around

439
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 2: the doctor said, Yeah, he's like right out of a

440
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 2: bad movie. Right. Yeah.

441
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 5: The prosecutors use that information in their very opening statement,

442
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 5: saying that you know, when this doctor walked into his

443
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 5: dying wise room, he didn't do it to save her life.

444
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 5: He went in that room to deliberately and intentionally end

445
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 5: her life with a fatal dose of cyanide.

446
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 2: Wow. And he doesn't think anyone's going to find out,

447
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 2: Like I agree with the talk. Pieper's like, who's not

448
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 2: going to find that out? You're in a hospital, But

449
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 2: I guess that's not what you're testing for, right, So

450
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 2: it just seems like cyanide sounds like it's from like

451
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 2: a wicked book.

452
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, and like I you know, we asked Joseph Scott

453
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 4: Morgan yesterday, is cyanide in arsenic something that's standard and

454
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 4: it tucks, you know, after somebody dies, like from unknown causes?

455
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 2: And he was like, no, maybe it will be now,

456
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 2: maybe it will maybe it will be now, Yeah it

457
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:41,199
Speaker 2: should be.

458
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 4: If it's not, I mean, it's really sad. I mean,

459
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 4: she these six kids, six of them, and the dentist

460
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 4: asked the daughter to create a deep fake AI video

461
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 4: of his wife asking for the poison can.

462
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 2: You imagine to track his daughter in.

463
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 5: I mean, we're going to continue on that and then

464
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 5: but ps, the wife, even as she was in the hospital,

465
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 5: she thought that something was going on with her husband

466
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 5: because she texted him I feel drug and her husband,

467
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 5: Doctor Craig said, just for the record, I didn't drug you.

468
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 2: So what a sweetie pot what a guy? So keep

469
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 2: it here.

470
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 5: After the commercial, we are continuing our look into doctor

471
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 5: James Craig, specifically the deep fake video, and then we

472
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:33,120
Speaker 5: will have the Anna Walsh murder case and much more.

473
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 5: Keep it here True Crime tonight.

474
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 2: We're actually thinking of a name. So if you want

475
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 2: to weigh in about this deadly dentist eight eight eight

476
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 2: three one crime, we definitely want to hear from you,

477
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 2: or you could leave us a voice message, or you

478
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 2: can leave us a talk back on the iHeartRadio app.

479
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 2: Speaking of talkbacks, we have one now.

480
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 10: Hey, true gram to not do you guys think it's

481
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 10: ethical or effective for a defense team to paint the

482
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,719
Speaker 10: victims of crime's like Craig's wife as manipulative or unstable,

483
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 10: especially since she's not even around to defend herself. I'm

484
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 10: just curious to see what you guys think, thank you,

485
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 10: and I have a good.

486
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 4: No, that is a good question, and I know I

487
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 4: do not think it's ethical, No, especially when he's fabricating

488
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 4: evidence to paint her as such. Right, But if there

489
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 4: was a legitimate history of her being suicidal and you know,

490
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 4: having these thoughts or being you know, manipulative, then I

491
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 4: think it would be one thing. But all this evidence

492
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 4: points to him doing this regardless even if she was

493
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,959
Speaker 4: let's say for a moment she was manipulative and suicidal.

494
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 2: Oh killer was cyanide?

495
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, like she still had cyanide in her body? Yeah

496
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 4: that he ordered? Yeah, go to therapy.

497
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 2: Right.

498
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 4: So No, I don't think it's cool. I think it's

499
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 4: I think it's dirty work. I think it's victim shaming

500
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 4: and it's just not something I stand for, and I

501
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 4: don't like it.

502
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 2: But I do think there's nuance to it. I do.

503
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm actually gonna go ahead and disagree with you guys.

504
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 2: Oh from Yeah, I just love a victim shame. No, Yes,

505
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 2: but that's what I stand hard upon. Is that what

506
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 2: hill you're going to die on right now? What I

507
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 2: know that's not true?

508
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, what I do love is a defense attorney's you know,

509
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 5: it is their oath to defend their client by any

510
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 5: and all legal means necessary.

511
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 2: Are you going to quote that's true right now? No,

512
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 2: you're right.

513
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 5: Listen, Kirk Nerdy, if you're listening, Stephanie's outed my crush

514
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 5: on you a couple of times.

515
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 2: I'll just do it myself defense.

516
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:47,199
Speaker 6: I will not.

517
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 5: But yes, I have learned this deeply from defense attorney

518
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 5: Kirk Nurmy, who did defend.

519
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 4: And if I was being accused of something that I

520
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 4: don't do, I want them to blame everybody but me.

521
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 2: You know what I mean. I get it, I got

522
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 2: But is it kind of a cheap trick for the juror?

523
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 2: And I'm teasing Courtney. Of course, nobody cares more about

524
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 2: victims than Courtney or I'm strong, so I tease. But

525
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 2: in reality, I don't think that really vibes for jurors either.

526
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 2: I think it also smells of a cheap trick. No,

527
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 2: and you know, this is the mother of your child's

528
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 2: six kids. This was a really loving religious family. They

529
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 2: had a lot of faith, and that just isn't gonna

530
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 2: isn't gonna fly unless they have something really big to

531
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 2: point to.

532
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 5: Well, one thing, and I do not know if this

533
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 5: has come to bear, but I know that part of

534
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 5: the defense's strategy, and I believe this was also in

535
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 5: their opening statement was and I quote, you're going to

536
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 5: hear her being Angela the victim.

537
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 2: You're going to hear her own.

538
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 5: Daughter describe her that she was also that she was manipulative.

539
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 5: So whether it comes to bear, I'm just saying, yeah,

540
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 5: what this.

541
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 11: Is, So is that true?

542
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 2: One of the six kids is coming forward to say, yeah,

543
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 2: mom was manipulative, but okay, to what end?

544
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 4: So therefore dad should kill her? So cy and I

545
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 4: just ended up in her body that he happened to.

546
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 2: Also order like, here's the deal. Okay, so the caller

547
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 2: and be true, this.

548
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 5: Is absolutely And the caller asked a great question, you know, said,

549
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 5: is it ethical?

550
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: Do I think it's in good taste? No, I think

551
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 2: it's horrible.

552
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 5: I think if five percent of what this guy, the

553
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 5: dentist is on trial for, is true, he's.

554
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 2: A deplorable human being.

555
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 5: But I do think that legally, you do need to

556
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 5: use everything that is within your legal rights to defend

557
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 5: your client. And I think that's just the tenant of

558
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 5: our system.

559
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 4: And I think that's a good point that's a very

560
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 4: fair point. I just don't like it when people who

561
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 4: aren't available to defend themselves because you know, of them

562
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 4: being murdered, our need to look like they're responsible for

563
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 4: their own death when it's just so clear to me

564
00:29:59,120 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 4: that that's not the case.

565
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: But I know that's not how the system works. And

566
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 2: Body is right now, you are putting on this epic

567
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 2: of it's hot. It's like, what is happening right now? Yeah,

568
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 2: you can't see it, but body is doing a bun

569
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 2: real time. That's like a twist into a fold into

570
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 2: a high cute. Oh, it's like a little pony. It

571
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 2: looks so good. I've seen four hairstyles in the last

572
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 2: forty nine and very like all of it. It's hot here,

573
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: it's very hot. It's getting in here. Yeah, it's very fair.

574
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: It looks beautiful. Oh, thank you. So we should talk

575
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 2: about the other alleged murder plot with the dentist. Okay,

576
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 2: and we've got to come up with the name for

577
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 2: the dentist, the deadly dentist, the overtame killer, something, we

578
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 2: got it. We want to hear it. Come on, callers,

579
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 2: we need more deadly dentists something. Updates on grooming. We're

580
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 2: still kind of tackling that. That's a big topic. We're

581
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 2: going to change legislation, all of us together. And then

582
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 2: also a name for this dentist, Colleen for the dentist.

583
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 2: So while he was in jail awaiting his trial for

584
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 2: the murder of his wife, this doctor, doctor James or

585
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 2: James Craig, he offered twenty thousand dollars to a fellow

586
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: inmate his name is Nathaniel Harris, to kill the lead detective,

587
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 2: Detective Bobby Olsen on his wife's case, who Craig referred

588
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: to as the worst dirtiest detective. Additionally, he tried to

589
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 2: bribe the inmate Harris his ex wife, to recruit false

590
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 2: witnesses and plant fabricated suicide letters to support this defense

591
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 2: narrative that the wife was unstable and suicidal and on

592
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 2: edge and planned.

593
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 5: Fast and loose with this guy playing cards while in prison.

594
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 2: It's like, hey, if you know a guy him, like

595
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 2: what is going on?

596
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 4: He tried to recruit his own daughter right to create

597
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 4: this deep fake AI video of his wife and the

598
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 4: voice talking about wanting to end it in asking for

599
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 4: the poison. And then he tried to get the lead

600
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 4: detective killed that was investigating the case.

601
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 5: I mean, this is crazy, it is and I also

602
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 5: found my ethical line. So hold on, give us a

603
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 5: call eighty eight three to one crime. If you went

604
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 5: away and actually on that talk back of what's ethical

605
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 5: or not when you're defending someone. So we want to

606
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 5: hear your thoughts on that. And you actually just really

607
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 5: clarified something for me body just there because you said

608
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 5: something earlier, like you know, it's not right if you're

609
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 5: lying about the you know, the victim, and I agree

610
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 5: with you.

611
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 2: So if an.

612
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 5: Attorney was saying, hey, let's get together, let us make

613
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 5: a deep fake of this woman and make believe that

614
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 5: this victim, Angela, was trying to end her own.

615
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 2: Life, that's that's my ethical line. Like that's that legal.

616
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 5: No, I wouldn't. No, oh, of course not. It has

617
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 5: not happened. It is part of what the dentist is

618
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 5: on trial for. But you know that's also a good line.

619
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 5: He is being charged with doing that or that's being

620
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 5: brought up.

621
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 4: Right well, So now he's facing the murder charges of Angela,

622
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 4: his wife, and he also has been charged with solicitation

623
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 4: to commit first degree murder and perjury. So he is

624
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 4: facing charges for this murder, for higher plot and planting

625
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 4: of evident suicide notes from his wife.

626
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 2: This guy thinks he's like in like the disease. Oh,

627
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:32,719
Speaker 2: I know.

628
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 4: The defense is saying basically that it's not credible. This

629
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 4: is an inmate for crying out loud. You can't trust

630
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 4: an inmate, right, So yeah, that's what they're saying. They're

631
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 4: saying that they're not credible, and we should you know,

632
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 4: the jurors should you know, not listen to that testimony.

633
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 2: So interesting, Just as an interesting reminder, if you're a

634
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 2: defense attorney and your client says to you, I killed

635
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 2: my wife with arsenic, don't tell. They're not allowed to tell,

636
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 2: right because there it's client legal lawyer confidentiality stuff.

637
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 7: Right.

638
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 2: Is that accurate? However, they can't perpetuate that lie. So

639
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,280
Speaker 2: if they know. I've learned this from Kirk Nurmi, Jodiarius's

640
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 2: defense attorney who's getting a lot of players. We should

641
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 2: do as pr Yeah, I mean he should be his

642
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 2: r manager. Kirk. If you happen to be listening, correct

643
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 2: us if we're wrong. But you've made quite the impact apparently.

644
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 2: I think if they you can't perpetuate a lie. You

645
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,280
Speaker 2: can't commiserate the lie. You can't come together and create

646
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 2: a lie. And you know, so if somebody says, oh, yeah,

647
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 2: I was out looking at the stars, that's my alibi.

648
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 2: As a defense attorney, you have to sell it and

649
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 2: that's the story, and they're sticking to it, and it's

650
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 2: your job to defend them. However, in this case, this

651
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 2: defense attorney, well, he in no way has been accused

652
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 2: of corroborating or perpetuating any of the dentists lies. The

653
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 2: dirty dentist. Oh my god, does that sound soft launched?

654
00:34:58,520 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 2: Launching it softly? Heads.

655
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 5: Let's say we have a caller on the line name Anna,

656
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 5: and we are going to ask them first, no pressure, Anna,

657
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:08,240
Speaker 5: Hi Anna.

658
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 6: Hello, Hi Anna, Hi, good evening. This is my first

659
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 6: time listening to the show, so thank you. This is

660
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 6: very interesting. I wanted to clarify one thing. So you

661
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 6: presented at the beginning that one of the witnesses was

662
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 6: a hospital physician and you specifically said that was a

663
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 6: pulmonologist who talked about the wife being likely bring dead

664
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 6: and the doctor dentist. The dentist's husband said, oh too bad.

665
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 6: I just want to clarify that usually pulmonologists and that's

666
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 6: probably the case in this case, are also critical care specialists.

667
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 6: So this was not just a puminologist, was a critical

668
00:35:55,239 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 6: care specialist, meaning that they are have the credential to

669
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 6: take care of a critically ill patients, dying patients, multiple issues.

670
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 6: And that's what credentials on that stand that he came

671
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 6: in not as a pulmonologist, the puminologist, as a lung doctor.

672
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 2: So yeah, and that makes sense because it distinction and yeah,

673
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 2: and that makes it like when you look him up,

674
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 2: it says he's a pulmonologist, but that.

675
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 4: Makes sense because the court did say he's an expert

676
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 4: on hospital medicine, so that does make sense that he

677
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,879
Speaker 4: would be a critical care specialist of this magnitude. Thank

678
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 4: you so much for calling Anna. We really appreciate it.

679
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 4: And yeah, that's clarifying that you, thank you so much.

680
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 4: But that is that is a good clarification. If he's

681
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 4: a critical care specialist, he would have been treating her,

682
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 4: not just her lungs. But you know, he specializes the

683
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 4: polymonology according to his Lincoln and all that, so that

684
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 4: is interesting. Yeah, but I just can't get over the

685
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 4: fact that this guy did all this while.

686
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,320
Speaker 2: In jail with his daughter, and.

687
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,760
Speaker 4: He also tried to get a couple of other inmates

688
00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 4: killed too while he was in there.

689
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 2: I mean again, busy he was.

690
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,720
Speaker 4: He Yeah, I mean he is like basically a serial

691
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 4: killer in the making. He's trying to get all these people.

692
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 2: He's like a mobster. He thinks he's on Goodfellas, right,

693
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 2: he thinks he's on Goodfellas. The store seems to our

694
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 2: phones are ringing with all kinds of bad dentist suggestions,

695
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 2: so we definitely want to hear more. Keep them coming,

696
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 2: Keep them coming, Courtney, where would you like to start with?

697
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 5: Well, I would like to start with the correction because

698
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 5: I said alleged murderer, and I meant to say attempted

699
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,760
Speaker 5: murderer when I was referring to the slender Man story.

700
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 2: So that's I want to stay out nineteen times. So

701
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 2: it's very fair. Yeah's attempted.

702
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 4: It's fair to assume she would have passed on. We're

703
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 4: going to get to that in a later segment. But

704
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 4: she did survive, so that's that's a blessing. Did you

705
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 4: guys see this true social post by Donald Trump today?

706
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 2: Did Dom Brian Cooberger, the documentary Aaron Peacock Right now.

707
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 4: I did not have this on a Bengal card that

708
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 4: the President in the United States of America would be

709
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 4: tweeting about Brian Coberger or true socialing, whatever you call it.

710
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 2: Hu, I did not have this summ I being a

711
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 2: card for twenty twenty five.

712
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 4: So today Donald Trump posted on his true social social

713
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 4: media he posted this. Brian Coberger, who was responsible in

714
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 4: Idaho for the deaths of four wonderful young souls, has

715
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 4: made a plea bargain deal in order to avoid the

716
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,320
Speaker 4: death penalty. These were vicious murders with so many questions

717
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 4: left unanswered. While life imprisonment is tough, it's certainly better

718
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 4: than receiving the death penalty. But before sentencing, I hope

719
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 4: the judge makes Coburger at a minimum explain why he

720
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 4: did these horrible murders. There are no explanations, there is

721
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 4: no nothing. People were shocked that he was able to

722
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,720
Speaker 4: plea bargain, but the judge wouldn't make him explain what happened.

723
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 4: Thank you for the attention to this matter. Thank you

724
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 4: for your attention to this matter. Well listen, I agree.

725
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 2: I agree, I totally agree with you. President Trump.

726
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 4: I do agree. I do agree with him. I just

727
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 4: it's not possible, Like it's the judge. He could have

728
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 4: done that at Clee. Right, this could have been something

729
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 4: that they demanded prior to the plea being accepted by

730
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 4: the court. But it's a done deal. It's done. But

731
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 4: to end things in this little subject, you know, because

732
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 4: you want to be positive about stuff, right, maybe this

733
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 4: will bring attention to the case and you know, maybe

734
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 4: comfort the family, like I imagine that like Steve Consalvas and

735
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 4: you know, is probably feeling recognized. The President of the

736
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,879
Speaker 4: United States is tweet is you know, tweeting excuse that word,

737
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 4: tweeting about your woes.

738
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 2: That's got to make you feel a certain type of way.

739
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 2: It makes you feel heard. It makes you feel heard

740
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 2: and seen.

741
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 4: And I think that that's probably important for them because

742
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 4: they probably don't feel heard and seen by the Leyta

743
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:58,720
Speaker 4: County Prosecutor's office.

744
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, I mean that's all I can really say.

745
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 4: I mean, I do wish that they would have demanded

746
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 4: something like where's the murder weapon, where's all you know,

747
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 4: your bloody clothes, why did you do this? You know,

748
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 4: those kinds of things, But they didn't and now it's

749
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 4: I think it's too late.

750
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:20,240
Speaker 2: I don't think they can go back. I would say too, like, listen,

751
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree with the president anymore. I mean awareness,

752
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 2: I wish the same for him to kind of come

753
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 2: clean and have to speak about other things and other news,

754
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 2: as we discussed in the first segment. Yeah, Stephanie, I

755
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 2: can't see you, and I don't like it. Oh yeah,

756
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 2: I adjusted my camera because I was sick of Oh,

757
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 2: they're right. Oh if I was just gonna see if

758
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 2: you missed me, we did. I was like, where is she?

759
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: I know she's talking here. It's not the same. It's

760
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 2: just not the same, you guys. I got to see

761
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 2: Stephanie smiling. But yeah, anyway, so hopefully, I mean Thursday,

762
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 2: This hearing is going to be a Thursday.

763
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 4: We'll be following it very very closely, So stay with

764
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 4: us for Thursday. We'll be covering it probably all night

765
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 4: because it's a long day of court. So stay right

766
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 4: here at True Crime Tonight. We have a lot coming up.

767
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 4: Eighty eight to thirty one Crime, True Crime all the Time.

768
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

769
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I

770
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 2: head up KAT Studios, where we make true crime podcasts

771
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 2: and documentaries, and I get to be here every single

772
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,959
Speaker 2: night with Body move In and Courtney Armstrong and listen.

773
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 2: There's been a lot going on in the news, specifically

774
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 2: about this dentist, so we definitely want to hear from

775
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 2: you if you have any big names or thoughts about

776
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 2: this ongoing trial happening in Colorado. Also, later in the show,

777
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 2: we're going to be unpacking the slender Man case because

778
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 2: one of the accused is now getting released from a

779
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 2: psychiatric hospital, and there's some mixed feelings about that, I

780
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 2: might add, so before we go any further, we have

781
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:05,879
Speaker 2: a talk back.

782
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 8: Now, Hey, guys, this is Stephen in Phoenix, and this

783
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 8: is the first time I'm listening to your guys' show

784
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 8: and it is incredible and I'm upset.

785
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 3: And I'm gonna be listening to it all the time.

786
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 8: Just a questions about the mercees Bago case. One, do

787
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 8: they believe that they've sound now all the people involved

788
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,839
Speaker 8: that they're going to be arresting or are they still

789
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 8: looking for for others out there? I know there's been

790
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 8: a couple more that have been accused and formally charged.

791
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 8: And then the other thing was as far as the

792
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 8: death penalty goes, like what factors are you used to

793
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 8: decide whether it's life or.

794
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 2: The death penalty?

795
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 6: So just some questions.

796
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 8: Keep up the good work, guys.

797
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:48,240
Speaker 3: He guys are awesome by now.

798
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 2: What a nice A nice? Nice? Yeah, so nice.

799
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 4: So this is a case local to him, Stephen in Phoenix,

800
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 4: because this happened in Arizona.

801
00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 2: And god, those are really good questions.

802
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 4: So about the suspect, first, there's two parts, the suspects

803
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,359
Speaker 4: and the death penalty. I do think they believe they

804
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 4: have all the suspects. There's been three people arrested. The

805
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 4: Sheriff's office did say that there could be more, but

806
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 4: right now, I do believe they think they have everybody,

807
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,800
Speaker 4: and they tied them all through of course, fingerprints in

808
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 4: the car and the credit card usage. Could Joe Young

809
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 4: he is the man that robbed Mercedes Vega back in

810
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 4: twenty twenty and that she was set to testify against.

811
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 4: He purchased plane tickets with his credit card for sincere

812
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 4: Patrick Kays and Gray, which are the other two suspects

813
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 4: linking him to their travel around that time. So I

814
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 4: do believe they think they have all the suspects, but

815
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 4: you never know. You never know what it's going to happen. Now,

816
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 4: as far as the death penalty is concerned, that's a

817
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,720
Speaker 4: really really good question. Are they going to get capital murder?

818
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 4: So there's a couple of aggravating factors that happen with

819
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,240
Speaker 4: murders that make people qualify.

820
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about that.

821
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,720
Speaker 5: So just to catch people up who may have missed

822
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 5: part of the show last night, Mercedes Vega is a

823
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 5: woman who was without going into too much detail, we

824
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 5: had a forensic expert, Joseph Scott Morgan on to discuss

825
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 5: all of the forensic details. But this poor woman, Mercedes Vega,

826
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 5: was tortured to death in deplorable ways, and it does

827
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 5: appear that it was to keep her from testifying about

828
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 5: a robbery several years prior.

829
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 4: That's what it appears like. Well, I mean, I'm sure,

830
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 4: I'm sure we're going to find out more. But she

831
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 4: was set to testify against this kud Joe Young, and

832
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 4: he's the one that used to credit card, of course

833
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 4: to purchase those plane tickets that I talked about.

834
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 2: Because the other two suspects live in.

835
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 4: Tennessee and he lives in Arizona, so I'm not sure

836
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 4: what the connection is there. But he's also like a

837
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 4: suspected drug ring leader, so he's got maybe some some connections,

838
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 4: you know.

839
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 2: All out all over the place.

840
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 4: But as far as the death penalty is concerned, there's

841
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 4: a lot of like aggravating factors, and some of them

842
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 4: are like, do they have a lot of prior serious offenses,

843
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 4: do they have a prior violent felony, you know those

844
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 4: kinds of things.

845
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 2: Was it a multiple murder?

846
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 4: Well, none of those really kind of are a play here,

847
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 4: but there is especially there's a clause especially heinous, cruel

848
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 4: or depraved, which means like the murder involved torture, prolonged suffering,

849
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 4: or extreme brutality. Now we know that she was They

850
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,320
Speaker 4: found blood outside of her car, so she was attacked initially,

851
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 4: don't know how, don't know what. She was also shot

852
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 4: in the arm. She had bleach poured down her throat,

853
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 4: and she was burned in the car, so that could

854
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 4: be considered sick torture, right, so that could be an

855
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 4: aggravating factor for the death penalty. We'll have to see

856
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 4: what happens. But that's a really great question. Thank you

857
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 4: so much, Steve. I think for the call. Please call

858
00:45:58,360 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 4: us again. That was really really good.

859
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 2: I'm curious what you guys think. I mean, this is

860
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 2: not to have a big heavy discussion about discussion about

861
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 2: the death penalty. I'm so personally very conflicted about it,

862
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 2: and don't I'm not into the death penalty, but I

863
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 2: am into death row. You know, you see things like

864
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 2: Brian Coburger. I know this sounds like an oxymoron, but

865
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 2: like sometimes you see, you know, really hardened people who

866
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 2: have done horrible things and they get to have access

867
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 2: to Wi Fi and they get to, you know, go

868
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 2: for jogs and runs every day and have square meals

869
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 2: and you know, kind of participate in the world. And

870
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,280
Speaker 2: then there's another side of it where you know, death

871
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 2: row has you know, such porrid conditions, and you know

872
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 2: there are cases like this one that are just so

873
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:45,479
Speaker 2: sick and if accurate, that person doesn't get to have,

874
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 2: you know, access to a game boy. You know what

875
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:49,839
Speaker 2: I mean, because that's what we're hearing. And I think

876
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,959
Speaker 2: that's kind of the sentiment in the Brian Coburger case,

877
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:55,800
Speaker 2: not to switch gears, but in the Idaho student murders,

878
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 2: you know, I think people are so angry about the

879
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 2: death sentence provision being taken off the table, maybe not

880
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 2: because they're so pro firing squad, but rather they kind

881
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,720
Speaker 2: of knew in their hearts that likely would never happen,

882
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 2: but that the conditions that he would spend his life

883
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 2: in would be very difficult, given that their loved ones

884
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 2: didn't get that same right. And I feel that way

885
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 2: in Pike County, for you know, the surviving family members

886
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 2: in Piked in Ohio. We've worked on that case for

887
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 2: so long. It was such a vicious crime and the

888
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 2: idea that you know, people are like live in their lives,

889
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 2: not that prison is fun for anything, but varying degrees

890
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 2: and in death is final.

891
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 4: And you know, we're hearing that although like in Brian

892
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 4: Coberger's case, that he's going to be in life in

893
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 4: prison without the possibility of prole and that he's waived

894
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 4: his right to appeal now, but he actually can appeal right, Like.

895
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 2: Surprise, it's kind of just like a he doesn't have

896
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 2: to applicate, right, And despite President Trump saying he would

897
00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 2: like to have the answer, sure, he doesn't really have

898
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 2: And that is like the super bummer of it. So

899
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 2: he gets to have access to Wi Fi and email

900
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 2: and a television and he gets to watch and listen

901
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 2: to things reporting about him. I'm sure Brian Colberger got

902
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 2: a little bit of a kick out of it when

903
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 2: you know, oh my goodness, the president is tweeting about me.

904
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,959
Speaker 2: You know, if you're a malignant, a megalomaniac the way

905
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 2: he likely is, he probably gets a kick out of it. Yeah.

906
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 2: You know, we debated this too, even with the doc

907
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 2: streaming on Peacock. Again, like his face is it's a

908
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 2: really really interesting artwork and I think they did a

909
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 2: great job on it, but we debated it is it

910
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 2: giving his face too much play?

911
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 5: And by the way, the doc Stephanie is referring to

912
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:45,839
Speaker 5: is the College Murders streaming on Peacock produced by Kat Studios,

913
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 5: and Stephanie and the team did yourself really and.

914
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 2: By the way, wonderful job. I thought the Amazon documentary

915
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 2: was great also to say, you know, shout out. You know,

916
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 2: there's plenty of space out there different completely. Yep, they

917
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 2: had such great access. You know, they were their day

918
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 2: of essentially, but I thought it was really powerful, So

919
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 2: you know, just say shout out to the Amazon. Amazon team.

920
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 2: They both have a place.

921
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, Like I think your documentary was really great

922
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 4: for people new to the case who want a general

923
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:18,839
Speaker 4: understanding of what happened and all the players involved and

924
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,839
Speaker 4: getting to know, you know, the friends and family of

925
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,240
Speaker 4: the victims and the victims themselves. And then the Amazon

926
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 4: documentary was kind of like the aftermath and healing and

927
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 4: you know how the families have been really affected and

928
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 4: I cried during bath.

929
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 2: I thought it was really well done. Both really good.

930
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,320
Speaker 2: Liz Garbus, I don't know her, we have not worked together,

931
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 2: but I'm sure I'm a fan her work on Is

932
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 2: It Gone in the Night? In the night that if

933
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 2: you haven't seen that, one's a good documentary. And she

934
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 2: I hope I'm not mistaken as the director of that.

935
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 2: And that's like one of the OG docs if you're

936
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 2: a true crime person who just follows this stuff closely.

937
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 2: It was really beauty done. So anyway, we did not

938
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 2: make the Amazon doc, but I thought it was really beautiful. Checked,

939
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 2: it really was. They're both great.

940
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 5: They're both yes, absolutely and important and you do learn

941
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 5: so much, so much, Stephanie. To answer your question that

942
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 5: you raised about taking death penalty out of it, I

943
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 5: think maybe what you're saying is, should people who are

944
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:27,800
Speaker 5: sentenced to more heinous crimes, for example, what Mercedes Vegas

945
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 5: alleged murderers are accused of, should there be a special

946
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:33,760
Speaker 5: place for them in the prison system?

947
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 6: Ye?

948
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 5: What do you guys think? Eight of eight three one crime?

949
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 5: Because I don't know, there might be something too there

950
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 5: even with a page all day all night?

951
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:43,720
Speaker 2: Is that your nightmare?

952
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 7: With that?

953
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 2: No TV and eating cabbage all day all night? Nightmare? Yeah?

954
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 2: You know that's not fun. That's really hardcore. For me.

955
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 2: That would be really hard to not have access to

956
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 2: a television. What would you do without Bravo? For I

957
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 2: don't know, I would die. Honestly, it would be like

958
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,399
Speaker 2: take me now, say me no. But seriously that would

959
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 2: be for me. For some it would be not having

960
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 2: access to a book or the library. Yes, or a

961
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 2: library for example, but like who gets like a hobby?

962
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 2: Now we I say this. I also believe in rehabilitation.

963
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 2: We also know if people get wrongfully convicted and have

964
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 2: been put to death, even for crimes they did not commit.

965
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 2: We know this firsthand. We've covered so many of these

966
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 2: cases closely. Also rehabilitation. Look at the Menandez brothers, they

967
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:29,359
Speaker 2: like slaughtered their parents and apparently are like the most

968
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 2: upstanding citizens in all the land and our college graduates.

969
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:35,760
Speaker 2: So I guess I, thank goodness, I don't run the world.

970
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 4: But you know what this with the Menendez brothers, that

971
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 4: crime was so targeted to a specific set of people

972
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 4: that you know that allegedly we're abusing them and whatnot.

973
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 4: I don't think the Menindez brothers are like a danger

974
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:50,919
Speaker 4: to society, right, they would not be in the right.

975
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 2: Do you know what it's like? Is not really? I

976
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 2: just like to say it though, Supermax. It's like one

977
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 2: of those prisons. I think like all of the who's

978
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 2: the one that the drug dealers from that took the

979
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 2: motorcycle like Courtney Arms during we know this, we know

980
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,800
Speaker 2: this the super Max. So it's like these really intense prisons.

981
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 2: They're like extra intense. Often they they don't even have

982
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 2: an address. Like do you remember the guy we were

983
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 2: talking about that he killed his bunch of his wives Peterson,

984
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 2: not Scott Peterson, Like he's infamously in a Supermax prision

985
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 2: and escar boat. What is Oh my goodness, how do

986
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 2: I know my lords?

987
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:29,839
Speaker 6: Yeah?

988
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 2: Stay there? Yeah? And then they were like, no, no,

989
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 2: we're going to pitch you in a supermax.

990
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:35,839
Speaker 6: Yeah.

991
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 5: Terrorist drug traffickers, yeah, fye bombers exactly.

992
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like very very bad. They get like two

993
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 2: hours a week of sunlight. You know, it's like underground

994
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 2: and like covered in bush and very not fine, No,

995
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 2: bravo all. Yes, we should know, we should be against cabbage,

996
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:01,359
Speaker 2: but it's you know, a little overrated and a long

997
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 2: time of it. Can you call yourself Irish? You know,

998
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 2: as a half irishman, I like it sauted, but you

999
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 2: know it can be tough.

1000
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 5: But we should look into are they federally run? They

1001
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,439
Speaker 5: are very interesting because yeah, Stephanie, we were.

1002
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 2: I was deep in the SuperMac. So Brittany, you about it? No,

1003
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 2: I don't I remember. I just Escobar? Is that the

1004
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 2: drug Escobar? We're all the worst to drug. Wait a minute,

1005
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 2: Paplo Escobar was killed in Colombia. Oh okay, what was

1006
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 2: the other one that he like escaped with his motorcycle underground?

1007
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 2: If you know, listen, this is not a fun game. However,

1008
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 2: I know somebody out there speaks me. It's a very

1009
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 2: famous drug lord, Chao elcho Jo, And listen. The talkbacks

1010
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 2: are coming, so let's go to one right away.

1011
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 3: Hi, ladies, I love your show.

1012
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:54,319
Speaker 4: I just want to get your opinion on why you

1013
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 4: think there has been increase in extremely violent young offenders

1014
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 4: in the past few decad.

1015
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 2: Oh great question. Wow that it is just in the

1016
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 2: news now with the Paddle border in Maine. Remember we

1017
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 2: thought he was a serial killer potentially at large, but

1018
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 2: instead it was a seventeen year old just somebody on

1019
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 2: family vacation with his folks at a campground. Can you imagine?

1020
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:22,360
Speaker 4: And Sarah Sarah Grace Patrick, Oh right, Sarah Grayce kills

1021
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 4: her her mom and stepwell, allegedly shoots her mom and

1022
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 4: stepfather while they were sleeping in bed.

1023
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Yeah, why is this now?

1024
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 4: Is it that there's an increase or is it just

1025
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 4: that we're hearing about it more Because like the twenty

1026
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:35,760
Speaker 4: four hour news.

1027
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 5: Cycle, it might be more awareness. I was going to say,

1028
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 5: and we should want to absolutely remember to look into

1029
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 5: this even this week or even with an expert. But

1030
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 5: because I don't know statistically there is more or like

1031
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 5: you said, it's just we're.

1032
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:52,479
Speaker 2: Hearing more because there is more needed.

1033
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like there's instant news now, right, like you know

1034
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 4: with Twitter and or X and you know, like Facebook

1035
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 4: and social media and instagrams and tiktoks and youtubes and whatnot.

1036
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 4: Are we just hearing about these more because people are

1037
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 4: talking about them instantly or is there really an increase?

1038
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 2: I would bet how we have to just kind of

1039
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:18,760
Speaker 2: look into this. I'm curious because I fear that post

1040
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 2: COVID and post isolation for so many for so long

1041
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 2: without access to therapy or tools communication, I think that's

1042
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 2: taken a toll on young adults. And I think the

1043
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 2: uptick is something we're seeing maybe the kind of the

1044
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:37,320
Speaker 2: trails off now in some cases listen, not in all cases,

1045
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:39,800
Speaker 2: but I'd be curious. I bet you that tracks a

1046
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:41,759
Speaker 2: little bit and that there has in fact been an

1047
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 2: increase in young person It could be both.

1048
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 4: It could be both an increase and an increase in chatter, right,

1049
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 4: it could mean both things. Well, speaking of young people

1050
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 4: in crime. Slender Man, you guys remember beware of the

1051
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 4: Slenderman documentary.

1052
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 2: I never watched the documentary, but the actual imagery of

1053
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 2: slow Man, which is very scary, and if you are

1054
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 2: not familiar, it's like a tall, skinny man.

1055
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was slender The Slenderman was like kind of

1056
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:14,759
Speaker 4: a creation from a popular website back in the early

1057
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 4: two thousand. It's called something Awful, and it was, and

1058
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 4: then it made its way over like the Creepy pasta

1059
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 4: space where it's like scary storytelling, and this character Slenderman

1060
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:26,840
Speaker 4: was like this creepy tall I.

1061
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 2: Don't know if he was like a monster or ghost

1062
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:29,760
Speaker 2: or deemon.

1063
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 5: He wore a blacks I just I'm reminding myself. He

1064
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 5: wore a black suit and have a little like an

1065
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:38,280
Speaker 5: old timy hat.

1066
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 2: I don't know why he's so scary, but I assure

1067
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:43,879
Speaker 2: you it was a competition. I think there was a

1068
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 2: competition where people had to take art and make it

1069
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 2: kind of haunting and doing so in it's black and

1070
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:53,800
Speaker 2: white imagery. It's like a man in like what seems

1071
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 2: like a business suit, you know, maybe back from the

1072
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 2: nineteen twenties or something, and then they like stretched him

1073
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 2: out black and white and a little bit grainy, and

1074
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:06,399
Speaker 2: essentially he becomes this sort of haunted fictional figure that

1075
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 2: this young girl, or these two young girls believed. I

1076
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 2: guess we're speaking to it, yeah right. It was like

1077
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 2: some it was like a ghost store they were seeing things,

1078
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 2: and this imagery was something that they couldn't escape because

1079
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 2: they believed in the power of the full floor of Slenderman.

1080
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 4: Exactly so Morgan Guyser, this happened in twenty fourteen. By

1081
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 4: the way, Morgan Geyser, she was institutionalized since twenty eighteen

1082
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 4: after participating in the twenty fourteen Slenderman stabbing. She was

1083
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 4: just granted conditional release. So Morgan was originally institutionalized in

1084
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 4: twenty eighteen after pleaing guilty by reasons of mental illness

1085
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 4: to attempt first degree intentional homicide. The attack occurred in

1086
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 4: May of twenty fourteen when Morgan and another Anissa Weir,

1087
00:57:57,520 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 4: both by the way, twelve years.

1088
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 2: Old at the time. My goodness, what is that sixth grade?

1089
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 2: Sixth grade? Oh, my unbelievableness.

1090
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 4: They lured their friend Patron Lutner into the woods and

1091
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:14,959
Speaker 4: they stabbed her nineteen times in an attempt to appease Slenderman. Now,

1092
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 4: from what I remember, Morgan was the one that was

1093
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 4: really emphatic that this was going to please Slenderman, and

1094
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 4: like a niece, Anissa just kind of went along with it.

1095
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 2: Is that, do you guys remember?

1096
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, was like a ringleader, Morgan was the one that

1097
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 4: was convinced they had to do this, and Anissa was

1098
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 4: just kind of like she was you staph, like join

1099
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 4: my cult.

1100
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 2: And she'd be like, yeah, okay, right, I would not

1101
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 2: kill my friend nineteen times. I wouldn't say have nineteen times. However,

1102
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:44,640
Speaker 2: if there was a dummy in the group, I would

1103
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 2: probably be the first one to go. So yes, she had.

1104
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 2: It was like Morgan was like the bully or she

1105
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 2: was like the reach of the matter, right, and she

1106
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:55,320
Speaker 2: went yeah, yeah.

1107
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 4: She believed, she really did believe that Slenderman was real

1108
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 4: and that she had to make sacrifice in order to

1109
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 4: please him, and that so her family would stay protected

1110
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 4: from what I remember, like it was almost like a

1111
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 4: blood sacrifice so that her family would would stay protected.

1112
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 4: So she got diagnosed with schizophrenia early on set schizophrenia,

1113
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 4: and she pled guilty by reasons a mental incapacity, and

1114
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 4: she was granted, you know, her stay. She was supposed

1115
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:28,920
Speaker 4: to be in a psychiatric hospital for forty years and

1116
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 4: she's now getting a conditional release. How do we feel

1117
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:32,920
Speaker 4: about that?

1118
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 2: So there's two of them, just making sure that I'm

1119
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 2: tracking him. There is two of them. Yeah, Anissa is

1120
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 2: the one getting released. No, Morgan is getting Morgan the ringleader. Yes, oh,

1121
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 2: she was the one that was had a psychotic break.

1122
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 2: It was schizophrenic early onset, which is very rare, very serious.

1123
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 2: In fact, getting those types of legal proceedings based on

1124
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 2: a psychotic break or schizophrenia is very rare. I think

1125
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 2: it's like one percent or something. You know, people are

1126
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 2: always like I was crazy, I was insane. It's actually

1127
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 2: very difficult to pretend to be insane. Despite her favorite movie,

1128
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:12,640
Speaker 2: Primal Fear, that was a good one, but that is

1129
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:14,680
Speaker 2: like usually that doesn't fly.

1130
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 4: So she was officially she was officially diagnosed too, by

1131
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 4: the way, I mean, she did have like a severe

1132
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:24,640
Speaker 4: mental illness, like for real, like there's no faking it.

1133
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 4: There's of course, legitimately, had she pled guilty, she was

1134
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 4: found not criminally responsible because of her mental illness. And

1135
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 4: she got this forty years in the psychiatric hospital, and

1136
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 4: she listened to this. She reportedly had hallucinations from an

1137
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 4: early age, so this was something that had been going

1138
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 4: on in her life for quite some time. She was

1139
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 4: found incompetent to stand trial, so she didn't even see trial.

1140
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:50,959
Speaker 4: Her condition was considered untreated and severe at the time

1141
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 4: of the crime, contributing directly to her actions. Now the

1142
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 4: other one, Anissa, she pled guilty to being party to

1143
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 4: the attempted second degree intentional homicide with a dangerous weapon

1144
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 4: in twenty seventeen, but just like Morgan, claiming she was

1145
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 4: mentally ill and not responsible for actions. She was committed

1146
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 4: to twenty five years in a mental hospital, was granted

1147
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:16,480
Speaker 4: release back in twenty twenty one after agreeing to live

1148
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:18,520
Speaker 4: with her father and to wear a DPS monitor.

1149
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 2: So they were both wow found Wow. Yeah. Keep in

1150
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 2: mind this was an extremely violent crime. I mean they

1151
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 2: were twelve year old girls who took a knife, lured

1152
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 2: their young friend, also twelve years old, Peyton, lovely, beautiful

1153
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 2: little girl. Thank god she survived. They lured her into

1154
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 2: the woods and then they stabbed her nineteen times. Think

1155
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:42,400
Speaker 2: about this sixth grade. What were you guys doing in

1156
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 2: sixth grade? Were you stabbing your best friend? So Peyton survives,

1157
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 2: she crawls, She either dead like a fireman, crawl survives somehow,

1158
01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 2: by the grace of God, she survives, goes on likely

1159
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 2: to live a very happy, healthy life. Thank goodness. Now

1160
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:01,640
Speaker 2: these two are going to be released. That's complicated stuff.

1161
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 2: It's really complicated.

1162
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 5: We'd love to hear what you guys think actually about

1163
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:10,960
Speaker 5: specifically the Slenderman case which we're talking about, and or

1164
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:14,560
Speaker 5: people getting out earlier is particularly if you're a minor

1165
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 5: who has created, who has committed a crime.

1166
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 2: So give us a call.

1167
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 5: We're at eight to a three on crime, or you

1168
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 5: can always also leave us a talkback because these are

1169
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 5: heady issues.

1170
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:25,120
Speaker 2: And the talk back.

1171
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 5: It's really it's just the top right of the iHeart

1172
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 5: app and you press the microphone, leave a message and

1173
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:35,360
Speaker 5: you're on the show. Right, So this is complicated, and

1174
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:40,000
Speaker 5: I mean twelve years old, that's also quite That really

1175
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:42,720
Speaker 5: is early first schizophrenia too.

1176
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 4: Well, and you know, I think it is early. I

1177
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 4: mean because normally these things don't show and people until.

1178
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 2: Early twenties.

1179
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:52,000
Speaker 11: Yeah.

1180
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 4: Serious, So for them to get actually physically like legitimately

1181
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 4: diagnosed with the mental illness at that age is pretty frightening.

1182
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:03,640
Speaker 4: I just can't get over the fact that Peyton, the victim,

1183
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 4: she crawled to a nearby path where a bicyclist found her,

1184
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 4: and she had to she had to go through many surgeries,

1185
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:14,720
Speaker 4: and I looked her up before the show began, she

1186
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:18,000
Speaker 4: just to see how she was doing. She decided to

1187
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 4: go into medicine. Of course she has a calling now, right,

1188
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 4: she has a calling, which I mean, god, thank god

1189
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 4: she survived. But you know, these what are the chances

1190
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 4: that these two twelve year olds who both have mental

1191
01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:30,880
Speaker 4: illnesses find each other?

1192
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 2: Right? It was like the perfect storm like that was

1193
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:35,400
Speaker 2: you know, one was the match and one was the

1194
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 2: flame or vice versa, the wick the flame.

1195
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:40,560
Speaker 4: Well, I think Morgan was the you know, the fire

1196
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 4: starter used that. I think Morgan was the fire starter

1197
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:47,080
Speaker 4: and Anissa was just kind of the follower. She didn't

1198
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 4: actually participate in the stabbing. She just kind of like

1199
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 4: covered for her and like, well that's what I understand,

1200
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 4: like was a lookout, you know, and helped lure. Yeah,

1201
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:59,120
Speaker 4: she might have afraid herself too, She might have she

1202
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 4: might have been afraid her. But the thing is is

1203
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:05,160
Speaker 4: that so Anissa was given twenty five years and Morgan

1204
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:08,440
Speaker 4: was given forty and if we're talking about you know,

1205
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:11,640
Speaker 4: sentencing and you know things like that, which we've been

1206
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:14,400
Speaker 4: talking about a lot lately, they only served eight years.

1207
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:18,680
Speaker 2: Oh and then yet there are people on trijuana charges

1208
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 2: that are looking at twenty years right.

1209
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:24,680
Speaker 4: Now, put yourself in like Steve Gonsales's position, right, he is,

1210
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:28,440
Speaker 4: I mean, he's pretty certain that Brian Coberger, I'm not

1211
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 4: ida host student murders is going to get the death penalty,

1212
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:35,920
Speaker 4: and quite frankly so is I right. And now all

1213
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:39,200
Speaker 4: of a sudden he's going to a big, fancy prison

1214
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:42,920
Speaker 4: for the rest of his life. Maybe now you know, like,

1215
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 4: could he be out in fifteen years because you.

1216
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:47,200
Speaker 2: Know time changed.

1217
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 4: Yes, I'm very and I think that Steve, you know,

1218
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 4: for the consolveist's family as a whole, and Xana Kernodle's

1219
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 4: father as well, I think that's their concern, and when

1220
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 4: you read cases like this, it kind of makes sense

1221
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 4: of why they're self set.

1222
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:04,560
Speaker 2: Right.

1223
01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:07,040
Speaker 5: I think it's two different issues. I think what you're

1224
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 5: saying is correct and valid and likely what a lot

1225
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 5: of the victims' families are thinking, particularly Steve Gonsalvez, who

1226
01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 5: has been.

1227
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:15,240
Speaker 2: Vocal about it.

1228
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 5: I also think it is a conversation of whether or

1229
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:23,680
Speaker 5: not to grant concession to people who do crimes when

1230
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 5: they are twelve years old.

1231
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:28,440
Speaker 2: That's the way. That's a topic for another almost she

1232
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:32,360
Speaker 2: barely survived this inch by an inch of her life. Yeah,

1233
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:33,000
Speaker 2: that's listening.

1234
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 5: Stick around. We've got a lot more to dig into.

1235
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:39,680
Speaker 5: We're going to get into the details of the alleged

1236
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 5: murder of a Massachusetts woman named Anna Walsh and find

1237
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 5: out what is the connection between her and the Karen

1238
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:46,160
Speaker 5: Reid trial.

1239
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:59,439
Speaker 2: Keep it here True Crime Tonight. Welcome back to True

1240
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:02,400
Speaker 2: Crime Tonight on iHeart Radio. We're still talking true crime

1241
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 2: all the time. I like that little punchy music. It's

1242
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:07,960
Speaker 2: like a little jazzy and slightly suspicious. I'm into it.

1243
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 2: So listen. I'm Selfie Lieder here with Courtney Armstrong and

1244
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:14,600
Speaker 2: body move in and listen. We want to hear from you,

1245
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 2: so please jump in. Eight eight eight three one crime.

1246
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:20,160
Speaker 2: We seem to be getting quite a few talkbacks, back

1247
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:22,800
Speaker 2: to back talkbacks. Can we jump to one right now?

1248
01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:28,360
Speaker 7: I'm Stephanie from Park Keell's Missouri. I was just wanting

1249
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 7: you to look into the murder of Conrad Ashcraft, a

1250
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:34,800
Speaker 7: three year old and Park tells from Missouri that died

1251
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:37,480
Speaker 7: in May. I'f you could look into it for me,

1252
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:40,520
Speaker 7: I would appreciate it. You guys are great, Thank you.

1253
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 2: I love that one. I'm not familiar with it. Either

1254
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:48,360
Speaker 2: making a note right now, the team Taha and Neva

1255
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:56,160
Speaker 2: are on it. Yeah. Time just a buzz right now.

1256
01:06:57,840 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 2: By the way, Yeah, produce a Taha, give us a

1257
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:03,160
Speaker 2: little hello. We're trying to integrate producer Taha into the show.

1258
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:05,520
Speaker 2: He's wearing a headset right now as he speaks.

1259
01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:07,400
Speaker 11: Go for it to hello. Hello, I'm making a note

1260
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:09,480
Speaker 11: about this Conrad Ashcraft case.

1261
01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:10,120
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1262
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:11,920
Speaker 11: That is something I want to dig into. Thank you. O.

1263
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:15,920
Speaker 2: Shoot, did you forget that? Yes? Okay, good, Taha's on it.

1264
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:21,640
Speaker 2: That just means a random applause for producer Taha. That's

1265
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:23,080
Speaker 2: two nights in a row. Taha.

1266
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:25,280
Speaker 11: You're not sick of me yet, are you?

1267
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 7: No?

1268
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:28,640
Speaker 2: Listen Taha and I go way back. Do you use

1269
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:32,160
Speaker 2: Taha's intern You were Taha's intern ware? Yeah, show Sally

1270
01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 2: Jesse Yo.

1271
01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:37,360
Speaker 11: Those who don't know. The Red Glass.

1272
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:41,600
Speaker 2: Classes was my first job in television early.

1273
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:42,840
Speaker 11: Yeah, I love it.

1274
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:44,680
Speaker 2: Changed my I used to come home from school and

1275
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:47,360
Speaker 2: watch that same I was like, she must answer her

1276
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 2: phones all day, and you know, I never understood that

1277
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 2: there was like a production around it. But yeah, Taha

1278
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 2: was like one of the first sights that I saw

1279
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:57,160
Speaker 2: in television.

1280
01:07:57,680 --> 01:07:59,680
Speaker 11: You were amazing then and still are.

1281
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:07,160
Speaker 5: Road were you guys like for ferrying DNA test? Are

1282
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:08,160
Speaker 5: you the father test?

1283
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:11,280
Speaker 2: Like as a matter of fact, yes, we would do

1284
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:15,840
Speaker 2: swabs parental like who's your daddy swaps? Yes, l detective

1285
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:18,960
Speaker 2: tests on a regular basis. Taha was known for his

1286
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:21,880
Speaker 2: particular part of the was like look at me now.

1287
01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 2: You know the segments when it's like I used to

1288
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:26,559
Speaker 2: be a nerd but now I'm fabulous, and like look

1289
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:28,240
Speaker 2: at his blow up and then they come back with

1290
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:30,120
Speaker 2: a glow up to show all the bullies how they

1291
01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:33,080
Speaker 2: look now. That was like a Taha specialty. And then

1292
01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:37,559
Speaker 2: there was like shared dragqu Am my first day, Yeah,

1293
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:40,479
Speaker 2: my mom is gangs for real? Like my first day,

1294
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:44,479
Speaker 2: there was like share do you believe? The Last to Love?

1295
01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:49,320
Speaker 2: There was like a share like drag Queen Spectacular show.

1296
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 2: And then it was like look at me now I

1297
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:53,720
Speaker 2: used to be I used to be a zero and

1298
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:54,479
Speaker 2: now I'm a hero.

1299
01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:55,599
Speaker 11: Yeah.

1300
01:08:55,640 --> 01:08:58,640
Speaker 2: Yeah that was our first and like we did amazing,

1301
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:01,479
Speaker 2: Yeah back to that show, back to back shows.

1302
01:09:01,680 --> 01:09:03,599
Speaker 11: For some reason, I also got attached to a lot

1303
01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:07,000
Speaker 11: of like the Kupex plan. People don't know, don't ask,

1304
01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:08,400
Speaker 11: that's a whole story.

1305
01:09:09,040 --> 01:09:11,760
Speaker 2: I have the greatest Taha stories. Actually we'll save that

1306
01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:15,360
Speaker 2: for a differ. We need to have Tuesday story that

1307
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:17,439
Speaker 2: was like my first day was that one of his

1308
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 2: little shenanigans with the flu Klux Klan and by the way,

1309
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:23,519
Speaker 2: and then would also be like remember frostbite. There would

1310
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:27,200
Speaker 2: be like a cover from like being in a life

1311
01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:29,760
Speaker 2: of crime and now they would get in the community.

1312
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:33,120
Speaker 2: You guys want the whole Yeah, I did know was

1313
01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:35,800
Speaker 2: two shows a day, six shows a week, and it

1314
01:09:36,040 --> 01:09:38,679
Speaker 2: was like a very shoe string staff and a very

1315
01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:41,840
Speaker 2: beloved team, and I just changed my life. And then

1316
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:47,720
Speaker 2: Tahan and I were on Temptation Island that's together, producers

1317
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:48,200
Speaker 2: on it.

1318
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:56,040
Speaker 11: I can't anyway, Sorry, people talking about this case with

1319
01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:59,879
Speaker 11: Brian that I'm dying to here about. Sorry, tell me about.

1320
01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:05,880
Speaker 12: Let's sorry, railed really serious so Brian Walsh and this

1321
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 12: was actually we've had people write in and yesterday we had.

1322
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:14,640
Speaker 5: A talk back from David from Massachusetts. It's been a

1323
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:18,679
Speaker 5: really contentious pre child discovery period and it continues going

1324
01:10:18,720 --> 01:10:23,400
Speaker 5: on regarding the murder trial that's happening with Brian Walsh.

1325
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:27,000
Speaker 5: Brian Walsh is charged with murdering his wife Anna, and

1326
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:31,960
Speaker 5: this is in Cohassett, Massachusetts. Allegedly this happened on January first.

1327
01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:36,839
Speaker 5: Back in twenty twenty three, prosecutors alleged that Brian Walsh

1328
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:42,719
Speaker 5: dismembered and disposed of his wife Angela's body after discovering.

1329
01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:44,240
Speaker 2: She planned to leave him.

1330
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:47,320
Speaker 5: So there's a little bit more background to the case,

1331
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:51,160
Speaker 5: as there always is. But what a lot of people

1332
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:55,360
Speaker 5: have been talking about, and rightly so, is the fact

1333
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:59,560
Speaker 5: that the lead detective was Detective Proctor.

1334
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:06,920
Speaker 2: Oh, from the Karen Reid case. Dun, dun, dun. We

1335
01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:09,840
Speaker 2: should get a light detector for him. Oh, my lot,

1336
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:11,040
Speaker 2: Maybe we can ask.

1337
01:11:11,800 --> 01:11:14,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, So Brian Proctor was the lead investigator in the

1338
01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:18,240
Speaker 5: Karen Reid trial. Karen read she was just acquitted in

1339
01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:24,120
Speaker 5: the retrial of murdering her boyfriend John O'Keefe, who was

1340
01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:28,120
Speaker 5: a Canton, Massachusetts police officer, which again she has been

1341
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:30,840
Speaker 5: acquitted and is walking free.

1342
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:34,160
Speaker 2: But Detective Proctor played.

1343
01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:37,559
Speaker 5: A prominent role in the trial and the investigation as

1344
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:40,000
Speaker 5: lead investigator for sending.

1345
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:42,320
Speaker 2: Inappropriate is not the word for.

1346
01:11:42,320 --> 01:11:45,200
Speaker 5: The kind of texts that he was engaged into and

1347
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:51,160
Speaker 5: about Karen Reid, including her looks, her accent and everything

1348
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:55,559
Speaker 5: in between, and also for his investigative practices themselves, which

1349
01:11:55,560 --> 01:12:00,800
Speaker 5: you guys may well remember. Investigative included collecting evidence in

1350
01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:03,479
Speaker 5: a solo cup and putting other evidence in.

1351
01:12:03,479 --> 01:12:08,880
Speaker 2: A literal grocery store trash bag, so fishing.

1352
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:14,760
Speaker 5: Unbelievable. Yeah, completely unbelievable. But listen, it's it's leading to

1353
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:19,080
Speaker 5: it seems like a change. It's changing the course of

1354
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:25,040
Speaker 5: this trial because the defense is really digging into Proctor and.

1355
01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:26,760
Speaker 2: These investigative practices.

1356
01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:33,560
Speaker 4: That seriously, So any okay, so any case that Proctor

1357
01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:35,960
Speaker 4: has ever worked on is going to be called into question,

1358
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:37,000
Speaker 4: now right.

1359
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:40,680
Speaker 5: I don't think that's an outlier possibility.

1360
01:12:40,840 --> 01:12:42,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I al would think I was if I had

1361
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:46,519
Speaker 2: been tried on anything and Proctor was at the helm again. No, no,

1362
01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:48,920
Speaker 2: just like, as a matter of fact, it's not even

1363
01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:52,280
Speaker 2: a matter of shade. I would be, you know, I

1364
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:55,519
Speaker 2: would feel like there's a crack. I could probably get

1365
01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:58,880
Speaker 2: an appeal and at least have things be relooked at. Yeah.

1366
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:02,759
Speaker 5: So if you're not super conversant in the case. The victim,

1367
01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:05,120
Speaker 5: Anna Wall, She was thirty nine years old. She was

1368
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:09,000
Speaker 5: last seen on New Year's Day of twenty twenty three.

1369
01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:12,920
Speaker 5: That's an external reasons. Yeah, yes, absolutely, Oh my goodness.

1370
01:13:13,200 --> 01:13:17,320
Speaker 5: She was seen on New Year's Day, January twenty twenty three.

1371
01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:20,160
Speaker 5: I do want to look into how many people are

1372
01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:22,280
Speaker 5: murdered actually on New Year's Day, because I feel like

1373
01:13:22,320 --> 01:13:23,519
Speaker 5: I know a lot of cases.

1374
01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:25,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is like a particular hot button for you. Yeah,

1375
01:13:25,960 --> 01:13:27,760
Speaker 2: let's do that again. It is true. I feel like

1376
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:28,599
Speaker 2: we say that a lot.

1377
01:13:28,760 --> 01:13:32,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, and this one is alleged, of course. But so

1378
01:13:32,439 --> 01:13:37,200
Speaker 5: Anna was seen, her body has never been recovered. Yeah,

1379
01:13:37,320 --> 01:13:42,800
Speaker 5: so prosecutors alleged, Okay, i'll prosecutors alleged that Brian Walsh

1380
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:47,120
Speaker 5: killed her at their home, that he dismembered his wife Anna,

1381
01:13:47,320 --> 01:13:49,960
Speaker 5: and he did so using tools that he had purchased

1382
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:54,000
Speaker 5: beforehand and disposed of her remains in the dumpster. So

1383
01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:58,880
Speaker 5: that's the Yeah, that's the broad strokes. And items that

1384
01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:04,639
Speaker 5: tie into Anna include her jewelry, her clothing, her vaccination records.

1385
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:07,599
Speaker 5: All of these things were found in a dumpster near

1386
01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:14,120
Speaker 5: Brian's mother's house. Brian Walsh is the accused murderer, and

1387
01:14:14,240 --> 01:14:18,040
Speaker 5: so all the victim Anna's belongings were found in this dumpster,

1388
01:14:18,160 --> 01:14:19,800
Speaker 5: alongside a hacksaw.

1389
01:14:20,920 --> 01:14:22,400
Speaker 2: And one of those creepy suits.

1390
01:14:22,400 --> 01:14:26,599
Speaker 5: I don't say it correctly, tivex suits, like those white

1391
01:14:26,680 --> 01:14:27,599
Speaker 5: zip up suits.

1392
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:30,400
Speaker 2: And that suit was stained with her DNA. So it's

1393
01:14:30,479 --> 01:14:31,639
Speaker 2: pretty hard to explain.

1394
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:33,920
Speaker 4: So that's so, even though they don't have her body,

1395
01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:38,679
Speaker 4: the hack saw the suit and the dumpsters, the vaccination cards,

1396
01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:40,840
Speaker 4: vaccination cards, that's a weird.

1397
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:45,160
Speaker 5: I think it was just her belongings. Like you may

1398
01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:49,320
Speaker 5: have your birth certificate and then with your wallet or something.

1399
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:50,960
Speaker 2: Vaccination cards.

1400
01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:54,240
Speaker 5: I mean, do you know what if you checked my

1401
01:14:54,320 --> 01:14:58,160
Speaker 5: wallet now, I bet I still have mindsetting. You meansts

1402
01:14:58,920 --> 01:15:01,439
Speaker 5: you know she carries a thick wallet?

1403
01:15:01,439 --> 01:15:03,200
Speaker 2: Body? Do you have a thick wallet? I don't think so. No,

1404
01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:05,200
Speaker 2: I have a tiny one. I had a feeling on

1405
01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:05,439
Speaker 2: the go.

1406
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:08,000
Speaker 5: Stephanie bought me this wallet and I kept the note

1407
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:09,599
Speaker 5: in it from I still have it to this day.

1408
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:14,880
Speaker 2: Anyway, I dig out her that twinning. I got it

1409
01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:19,479
Speaker 2: in Italy. I'm Italian wallet. Yeah, I know the guy

1410
01:15:19,479 --> 01:15:21,800
Speaker 2: who made it. I would I like to go back anyone.

1411
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:24,560
Speaker 5: Listen, if anyone out there would like to join our conversation,

1412
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:27,320
Speaker 5: whether you want to talk about this case with Brian.

1413
01:15:27,080 --> 01:15:29,679
Speaker 2: Walsh or what is in your wallet?

1414
01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:32,320
Speaker 5: We're at eighty eight three to one crime and you

1415
01:15:32,360 --> 01:15:36,240
Speaker 5: can reach us any time. So that's not all of

1416
01:15:36,240 --> 01:15:38,439
Speaker 5: the evidence. Body, Okay, there's more.

1417
01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:39,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1418
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:41,479
Speaker 5: So also, in addition to everything we talked about with

1419
01:15:41,520 --> 01:15:45,599
Speaker 5: the DNA and the clothes, searches that Brian Walsh had

1420
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:49,840
Speaker 5: done on his son's iPad include hacksaw, best tool to

1421
01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:53,639
Speaker 5: dismember or how long before a body starts a smell?

1422
01:15:53,840 --> 01:15:56,559
Speaker 5: And how to dispose of one hundred and fifteen pound

1423
01:15:56,680 --> 01:15:57,519
Speaker 5: woman's body.

1424
01:15:58,439 --> 01:16:02,040
Speaker 2: Wow, okay, so it's not looking great. Yeah, on his

1425
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:07,559
Speaker 2: son's iPad. That's so common, that's so, I mean, that

1426
01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:11,439
Speaker 2: is actually surprisingly common. Courtney amstring again with coming in

1427
01:16:11,479 --> 01:16:15,120
Speaker 2: with the kill with some unknown tidbits that do She's right,

1428
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:19,320
Speaker 2: is like an uptick in killings, and it is not

1429
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:23,080
Speaker 2: uncommon for a psychopathic parent to do weird Google searches

1430
01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:28,400
Speaker 2: on their child's stuff. Well, even less nefarious.

1431
01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:33,240
Speaker 5: Stephanie is in like, there's been an allegit uptick in

1432
01:16:33,400 --> 01:16:38,040
Speaker 5: divorces because if your family, if you're all linked up,

1433
01:16:38,040 --> 01:16:40,680
Speaker 5: and this is for people who are doing you know,

1434
01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:43,479
Speaker 5: good or bad behavior to keep in their mind a

1435
01:16:43,479 --> 01:16:45,559
Speaker 5: lot of time, stuff that you may think that you

1436
01:16:45,600 --> 01:16:49,800
Speaker 5: are sending to your private person on the side ends

1437
01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:51,960
Speaker 5: up on your child's.

1438
01:16:52,840 --> 01:16:56,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this is very common. How about the coldplay guy? Oh,

1439
01:16:57,520 --> 01:17:00,280
Speaker 2: not to make a segue into a crime as this,

1440
01:17:02,040 --> 01:17:06,479
Speaker 2: I don't know what to say. I mean, you're not alone.

1441
01:17:06,600 --> 01:17:09,320
Speaker 2: Everybody seems to really, really, really be obsessed with these

1442
01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:11,599
Speaker 2: couple of memes that have come out. I'm just dying,

1443
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:15,600
Speaker 2: like we've got to talk about this. Okay, when are

1444
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:17,880
Speaker 2: we going to do that? Sorry, back to the crime,

1445
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:19,800
Speaker 2: but I know, crime of the heart, a crime of

1446
01:17:19,840 --> 01:17:22,360
Speaker 2: the heart. Yes, it's a crime of the heart, this

1447
01:17:22,520 --> 01:17:25,960
Speaker 2: Walsh case. And listen it is.

1448
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:28,639
Speaker 5: I know we've been a little sidetrackie, So sorry, that's

1449
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:32,160
Speaker 5: all me. No, it's all good. But yeah, So we

1450
01:17:32,240 --> 01:17:35,200
Speaker 5: will be following this. The trial is to come, and

1451
01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:38,560
Speaker 5: we will get back with more details and also continuing

1452
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:42,599
Speaker 5: to see how what's being now dubbed the Karen Reid

1453
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:48,880
Speaker 5: effect is indeed happening and will it literally change the

1454
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:53,240
Speaker 5: way that some cases are either prosecuted or defended.

1455
01:17:53,880 --> 01:17:58,080
Speaker 2: Wow, and listen, this night has flown by, but we

1456
01:17:58,120 --> 01:17:59,599
Speaker 2: have a lot of stuff to be covering this week.

1457
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:01,240
Speaker 2: So just as a reminder, you're going to have to

1458
01:18:01,240 --> 01:18:03,920
Speaker 2: stay with us night after night after night. So tomorrow

1459
01:18:04,439 --> 01:18:07,360
Speaker 2: we're going to have the when we were talking about

1460
01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:12,880
Speaker 2: the Gary Coleman suspicious interesting show on any about how

1461
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:15,200
Speaker 2: he had to take a lie detector test. The wife

1462
01:18:15,320 --> 01:18:18,120
Speaker 2: is surviving wife maybe now ex wife. If you haven't

1463
01:18:18,120 --> 01:18:19,920
Speaker 2: seen it, check it out, so we can like yap

1464
01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:22,320
Speaker 2: about it tomorrow. But we're going to be discussing that

1465
01:18:22,360 --> 01:18:24,880
Speaker 2: we actually have a special guest from the show. We'll

1466
01:18:25,080 --> 01:18:29,240
Speaker 2: joining us from Line Detector Truth or Deception. Yes, yes,

1467
01:18:29,439 --> 01:18:32,320
Speaker 2: in fact, the lie detector guy is going to be

1468
01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:35,280
Speaker 2: with us producer my accuracy. He's not going to hook

1469
01:18:35,320 --> 01:18:37,120
Speaker 2: us up to anything, is he. I hope he does.

1470
01:18:38,360 --> 01:18:40,639
Speaker 2: You can do it on me. I volunteer. I volunteer

1471
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:44,880
Speaker 2: on behalf of all three of us. I'm into it.

1472
01:18:44,920 --> 01:18:50,280
Speaker 2: And then also obviously the Brian Coberger hearing, this infamous

1473
01:18:50,320 --> 01:18:53,960
Speaker 2: sentencing hearing is on Thursday. And look, that could go

1474
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:55,800
Speaker 2: a lot of different ways. We've heard this from many

1475
01:18:55,840 --> 01:18:58,639
Speaker 2: of you guys too. He could throw us a wild

1476
01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:01,639
Speaker 2: card despite with you know, Donald Trump is saying, listen,

1477
01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:04,800
Speaker 2: we want answers, we want an allocation. We want to

1478
01:19:04,840 --> 01:19:07,040
Speaker 2: know where the knife is, we want to know what

1479
01:19:07,120 --> 01:19:10,880
Speaker 2: the plan was, We want to know why or is

1480
01:19:10,920 --> 01:19:13,360
Speaker 2: he just going to stand there and nod his head

1481
01:19:13,920 --> 01:19:16,920
Speaker 2: and just get to go away till the end of days.

1482
01:19:17,320 --> 01:19:20,600
Speaker 2: So we'll obviously be covering that to left sides and

1483
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:24,200
Speaker 2: backwards and yeah, and then also you know, I think

1484
01:19:24,200 --> 01:19:25,320
Speaker 2: we have a talk back now.

1485
01:19:26,160 --> 01:19:30,040
Speaker 9: Be good evening. My name is yahya YEA great question

1486
01:19:30,160 --> 01:19:36,400
Speaker 9: for this evening is Stephen Stearns pled guilty today and

1487
01:19:36,479 --> 01:19:41,160
Speaker 9: was sentenced today? So is it because the difference between

1488
01:19:41,200 --> 01:19:46,400
Speaker 9: Florida Hall and Idaho Hall that Coburger pled guilty but

1489
01:19:46,479 --> 01:19:49,720
Speaker 9: we have to wait till Wednesday? Do you hear the sentencing?

1490
01:19:50,200 --> 01:19:52,280
Speaker 2: Good question? She's so smart.

1491
01:19:52,720 --> 01:19:55,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love the ye. I think I think it

1492
01:19:55,520 --> 01:19:59,639
Speaker 4: means grandmother. I want to be a call me Greece, right, Yeah.

1493
01:20:00,439 --> 01:20:02,599
Speaker 4: I grew up in a very Greek neighborhood. Yah yah

1494
01:20:03,920 --> 01:20:08,800
Speaker 4: so okay. Stephen Stearns is the killer and abuser of

1495
01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:12,880
Speaker 4: Madeleine Soto. Madeleine Soto went missing in February of twenty

1496
01:20:12,920 --> 01:20:15,920
Speaker 4: twenty four. I followed this case and I am sorry

1497
01:20:15,880 --> 01:20:19,200
Speaker 4: I remember it. And he was her stepfather and he

1498
01:20:19,320 --> 01:20:24,240
Speaker 4: was abusing her and he killed her and he pled

1499
01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:27,479
Speaker 4: guilty today. Well, actually he pled no contest which is interesting.

1500
01:20:27,479 --> 01:20:29,439
Speaker 4: I don't even know what that means. So I wanted

1501
01:20:29,439 --> 01:20:31,080
Speaker 4: to dig into this, but this all happened today and

1502
01:20:31,080 --> 01:20:35,000
Speaker 4: I didn't have time supermax maybe, but he pled guilty

1503
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:37,760
Speaker 4: today and he was sentenced, And so Yahya's question is

1504
01:20:37,800 --> 01:20:40,720
Speaker 4: a good one. Why does he get sentencing today when

1505
01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:43,320
Speaker 4: we have to wait three or four days for you know,

1506
01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:46,679
Speaker 4: a week or two for Brian Coberger sentencing. And quite frankly,

1507
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:49,320
Speaker 4: I don't know the answer to that question, but it

1508
01:20:49,360 --> 01:20:52,879
Speaker 4: is an interesting one. Maybe because of victim impacts statements.

1509
01:20:52,920 --> 01:20:57,240
Speaker 4: Now it's long been alleged that Madeleine Soto's mom, it's

1510
01:20:57,280 --> 01:21:00,400
Speaker 4: allegedly knew about the abuse and did nothing, And so

1511
01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:02,639
Speaker 4: maybe that's why there was no victim impact. She wasn't

1512
01:21:02,640 --> 01:21:06,160
Speaker 4: even there today, so there could be a lot of

1513
01:21:06,160 --> 01:21:07,800
Speaker 4: going on there. But yeah, yeah, I don't know the

1514
01:21:07,840 --> 01:21:10,320
Speaker 4: answer to that question, but we can certainly find out

1515
01:21:10,400 --> 01:21:11,320
Speaker 4: and answer that.

1516
01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:11,439
Speaker 11: All.

1517
01:21:11,560 --> 01:21:13,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's answer that tomorrow because that's a great question

1518
01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:16,639
Speaker 2: and what a sicko. And again this is another example.

1519
01:21:16,680 --> 01:21:19,760
Speaker 2: If you're going to kill your kid and admit to it,

1520
01:21:19,800 --> 01:21:23,760
Speaker 2: whether it's no contest or I'm guilty, whatever the verbiage is,

1521
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:27,200
Speaker 2: there should be a certain place in the contention center

1522
01:21:27,360 --> 01:21:29,639
Speaker 2: that is no fun and games put it that way.

1523
01:21:30,120 --> 01:21:33,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I get really upset when people, you know, children

1524
01:21:33,400 --> 01:21:35,880
Speaker 4: or like the elderly who can't like tature themselves like

1525
01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:38,240
Speaker 4: that's why I'm so hopped up with the thing I

1526
01:21:38,520 --> 01:21:41,639
Speaker 4: don't under age. Yeah, don't get it started.

1527
01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:43,599
Speaker 2: Well, we're going to be following that all very closely

1528
01:21:43,680 --> 01:21:47,320
Speaker 2: tomorrow as well, So listen. Breaking news all the time here.

1529
01:21:47,360 --> 01:21:51,120
Speaker 2: But thank you for the wonderful talkbacks and the messages.

1530
01:21:51,200 --> 01:21:54,519
Speaker 2: Please keep them coming, and we look forward to talking

1531
01:21:54,520 --> 01:21:56,120
Speaker 2: to you tomorrow. So if you want to just call

1532
01:21:56,160 --> 01:21:59,120
Speaker 2: in and be with us live, do so anytime. It's

1533
01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:02,120
Speaker 2: been a great night. Listen. This is true crime tonight,

1534
01:22:02,439 --> 01:22:05,040
Speaker 2: True crime all the time. Good night, Stay safe,