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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to What Goes Up, a Bloomberg Weekly

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Speaker 1: market podcast. I'm Sarah Ponzack, reporter on the Crossouset team,

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Speaker 1: and I'm Mike Reagan, a senior editor on the Markets team.

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Speaker 1: This week on the show, the crazy times continue. Just

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Speaker 1: consider the statistic from Bespoke Investment Group. The SMP drop

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Speaker 1: is only its seventh since and the quickest by more

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Speaker 1: than two weeks. The only two times where that speed

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Speaker 1: if the decline was anywhere near at bass. We're in

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Speaker 1: so sure. The equity market has been wild and the

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Speaker 1: vix jumped to a record high this week, a record,

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Speaker 1: But at the heart of the stock markets worries has

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Speaker 1: been corporate credit fears, right, and we'll get into that

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Speaker 1: with our guest Uh And of course we'll close out

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Speaker 1: the episode with the craziest things we saw in markets

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Speaker 1: this week. Sarah, I trust there were plenty of crazy

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Speaker 1: things you saw in markets this week. So many crazy

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Speaker 1: things we saw in markets, but also just in the world.

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Speaker 1: We should be very clear if our audio sounds a

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Speaker 1: little bit strange, or you hear an ambulance or maybe

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Speaker 1: the man who lives on top of me his band

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Speaker 1: playing jazz um. We're all coming at it from our

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Speaker 1: very own homes for the first time. So bear with

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Speaker 1: us and it'll be a lot of fun. You might

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Speaker 1: you might hear my dog. And it's a clarify, Sarah.

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Speaker 1: The man lives in an apartment above you. He doesn't

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Speaker 1: literally live on he literally Yeah, he doesn't literally live

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Speaker 1: right on top of my head. He does live in

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Speaker 1: the apartment above me the luxury of New York City.

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Speaker 1: So I've got a man living in my head. But

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Speaker 1: that's a whole that's that's a that's a different issue

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Speaker 1: that will deal with Mike. Yeah. But Sarah, as you said,

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Speaker 1: I think in uh markets these days, uh, the main

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Speaker 1: topic front and center on everyone's mind is the severe

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Speaker 1: damage being done to credit mark It's um. So we're

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Speaker 1: very happy to welcome to the show for the first time,

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Speaker 1: the head of credit strategy at Wells Fargo's Securities. When

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Speaker 1: do you, Caesar, what do you welcome to the show?

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much for having me. Happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: Oh great, um, And I guess the one thing I

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Speaker 1: wanted to ask you first. I know, uh, this is

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Speaker 1: sort of out of your normal realm of strategy, but

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Speaker 1: I feel like the whole world is waiting for some

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Speaker 1: kind of government uh plan to shore up the credit markets.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we we've got a little bit of a

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Speaker 1: start on that from the FED with their commercial paper facility. UM.

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Speaker 1: But I'm just curious, have you given much thoughts so

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Speaker 1: sort of what kind of government package uh could be

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Speaker 1: put together to to really sort of uh stop the

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Speaker 1: bleeding and credit markets, especially since obviously the FED is

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Speaker 1: not allowed to buy corporate bonds, but maybe that will change. UM.

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Speaker 1: How's your thinking around all of that about what we

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Speaker 1: can expect from the government when it comes to credit. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're You're absolutely right. Credit markets have dislocated very severely

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Speaker 1: in recent weeks, and for us, on the strategy side

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Speaker 1: of things, we have been basically following the FEDS playbook. Um.

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Speaker 1: They have a pretty well recognized strategy from the financial crisis.

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Speaker 1: They have the benefit of being able to look back

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Speaker 1: and seeing, you know, what worked then, what didn't work, um,

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Speaker 1: and trying to project out what will work in this situation. Now.

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Speaker 1: I think that the biggest thing that people are are

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Speaker 1: really worried about in the short term across the credit

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Speaker 1: markets is there's just been this massive rush for liquidity.

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Speaker 1: It's been the sell everything strategy in the markets to

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Speaker 1: raise cash while issuers on the corporate side of things

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Speaker 1: are drawing down revolvers taking out their delayed drawing term

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Speaker 1: loans at you know, basically a record case. And so

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Speaker 1: the biggest question for corporate credit is there enough liquidity

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Speaker 1: in the system to actually back up all these revolver

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Speaker 1: drawdowns all of the cash raising by investors. We've spoken

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Speaker 1: for I don't know years now since the financial crisis

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Speaker 1: just about how much liquidity was pumped into the system

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Speaker 1: by the FED and other central banks. And so now

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Speaker 1: this is the real critical point where we figure out,

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Speaker 1: did all of the regulations put in place on the

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Speaker 1: banking system, uh post crisis, are they actually going to

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Speaker 1: do what they were designed to do and give borrowers

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Speaker 1: the type of liquidity that we really need right now

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Speaker 1: when we have no idea about the duration of this

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Speaker 1: crisis and the real magnitude of it all. So we

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Speaker 1: are following the FED and other central banks very closely

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Speaker 1: while also trying to figure out what the fiscal plan

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Speaker 1: is from the government. And you know, we've seen a

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Speaker 1: number of central banks come in and say that they

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Speaker 1: are putting I G. Corporate debt as uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: an eligible asset for quantitative easing programs. And I think

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Speaker 1: that there is a lot of speculation that the FED,

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Speaker 1: in conjunction with Congress and the U. S. Treasury may

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Speaker 1: have to ultimately go down that path. What do you

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Speaker 1: make of that possibility. I mean, we saw the op

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Speaker 1: ed from Janet Yellen and Bernanki and the Financial Times

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Speaker 1: raising that that maybe the FED could step in and

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Speaker 1: buy corporate bonds. I mean, if that were to actually

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Speaker 1: happen one, what might that look like and to how

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Speaker 1: might that actually help the system at this point in time. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think that the mechanics of it are

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Speaker 1: are definitely to be seen. We have the playbooks from

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Speaker 1: other central banks where you know, it's just open market

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Speaker 1: purchase is and they you know, go in and they

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Speaker 1: have their list of eligible securities and you oftentimes see

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Speaker 1: the basis between those eligible securities and ineligible widen when

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Speaker 1: you have market volatility. So you know, it's yet to

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Speaker 1: be seen what the FEDS playbook would would actually be

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Speaker 1: in conjunction with Congress in the treasury um. But you know, historically,

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Speaker 1: if we look back at the FED putting MBS on

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Speaker 1: its list of securities, that they're going to buy that

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Speaker 1: stabilized the market pretty considerably in the financial crisis, and

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Speaker 1: you know, this go around NBS is already in the

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Speaker 1: newest que program um, and you know, it's not proving

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Speaker 1: to be quite as much of a quick fix as

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Speaker 1: I think some people might have thought it would be. UM.

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Speaker 1: So I think that the biggest issue right now is

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Speaker 1: that the front end of the curve is under tremendous

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Speaker 1: pressure because everybody just wants cash, and you know, we

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Speaker 1: we don't have the solutions in place quite yet to

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Speaker 1: normalize that front end of the curve. I think that

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Speaker 1: we are definitely creeping toward that point. And you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that I think you have to

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Speaker 1: keep in mind is we are still in Q one

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Speaker 1: for corporate borrowers, which means that you know, they want

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Speaker 1: to have as much cash on hand for their Q

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Speaker 1: one filings so that when they report earnings they can say,

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Speaker 1: you know, look at this liquidity that we have on hand.

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Speaker 1: So the big question is are we now taking too

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Speaker 1: much liquidity out of the system in one fell swoop

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Speaker 1: and we're going to go back in six weeks from

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Speaker 1: now and say, okay, well, maybe maybe we didn't need

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Speaker 1: to all be drawing down our revolvers At the same time,

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Speaker 1: it's you know, it's a very interesting kind of game

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Speaker 1: theory issue that we have backed ourselves too, you know

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Speaker 1: when you I, I know the focus has been on

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Speaker 1: when you talk about sectors that obviously the energy sector

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Speaker 1: is once again the big concern, and credit uh, travel

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Speaker 1: and leisure and hospitality UH clearly is a big source

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Speaker 1: of concern. But I feel like there's potential for this

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Speaker 1: to just bleed into other sectors. UM. You know, are

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Speaker 1: there any sectors you think that have either um uh

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Speaker 1: not priced in the risk enough yet or maybe went

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Speaker 1: too far? Um. I'm just trying to think where this

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Speaker 1: goes next after you know, energy and clearly the travel

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Speaker 1: and leisure sectors have been hit pretty hard. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: it's it's a great question. And and when we're grappling

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Speaker 1: with on a very regular basis, I personally have been

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Speaker 1: very surprised by how well technology has held in in

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Speaker 1: both investment grade and high yield. Tech is one of

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Speaker 1: the tightest trading sectors despite you know, in my opinion,

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Speaker 1: having pretty tremendous exposure to supply chain and then sticklicality issues. UM.

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Speaker 1: So that's one of the segments where we've been a

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Speaker 1: bit more cautious UM, and it hasn't worked so far.

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Speaker 1: So we're we're definitely you know, looking at pressure points

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Speaker 1: and maybe if there are positive catalysts that we were

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Speaker 1: just overlooking. UM. The media side of things is also interesting.

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Speaker 1: You have some some different gifts and take where with

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Speaker 1: more people at home, you'll see more streaming. There will

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Speaker 1: be some media winners from that, UM. But you also

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Speaker 1: don't have people in movie theaters and how long is

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Speaker 1: it going to take for you know, people to really

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Speaker 1: be comfortable going to a movie and being in a

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Speaker 1: in a crowded space. I don't know, generally public perception

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Speaker 1: of these types of issues take a little bit longer

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Speaker 1: for people to get comfortable again. UM. Then I think

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Speaker 1: some people estimate. And then also you know, the home

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Speaker 1: building building products side of things that's been very resilient

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Speaker 1: UM in this market UM, and that there's clearly going

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Speaker 1: to be a slowdown in home buying if we have

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Speaker 1: unemployment just spiking all of a sudden. Now the big

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Speaker 1: question is, you know, what are the jobs that we're

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Speaker 1: actually losing in the economy. Are those jobs you know,

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Speaker 1: going to coincide with people who would be trying to

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Speaker 1: buy homes. Um. You know, there there's probably a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a glimmour for home construction if we have

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Speaker 1: the ability to do a lot of the um you know,

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Speaker 1: more uh finance law, the kind of tech higher higher paid,

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Speaker 1: higher wage jobs, rather than the hospitality industry where you know,

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Speaker 1: it's still not the most well paid industry. UM. So

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Speaker 1: I'm definitely looking, you know, pretty closely at what's going

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Speaker 1: on in the housing market as well. Timing here is

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Speaker 1: is such a big question. Really, no one has any

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Speaker 1: way of knowing how long this is going on for.

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Speaker 1: And I mean you talk about stimulus, what fiscal can do,

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Speaker 1: what they can do on the monetary side, and you

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Speaker 1: hope that to an extent that does help. But I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of just curious. I mean, how long can the

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Speaker 1: U S economy as it's built now actually sustained being

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Speaker 1: shut Like, even if you do have liquidity being pumped

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Speaker 1: into the system and you have a way of getting

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Speaker 1: cash to companies to help build themselves back up, I mean,

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Speaker 1: at what point does it potentially just become too much.

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Speaker 1: I wish, I wish I really knew the answer to that.

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Speaker 1: Because I feel like I could probably make some very

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Speaker 1: good bets if I did. You know, when I when

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Speaker 1: I talked to my my econ experts about you know,

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Speaker 1: how severe this can be for g d P. You know,

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Speaker 1: most of them like to refer me back to the

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Speaker 1: early nineteen eighties and we had a pretty severe downdraft

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Speaker 1: in economic growth, but it was very short lived. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I think that long term, as a corporate

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Speaker 1: credit investor, I continue to believe in the viability of capitalism.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that this is going to be, you know,

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Speaker 1: the the end of times for American capitalism as we

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Speaker 1: know it and globalism. You know, I think that we're

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Speaker 1: going to eventually right ourselves. I think the economy as

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Speaker 1: shut down as it is, I think means that the

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Speaker 1: recovery is less likely to be v shaped because it

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Speaker 1: takes time to turn things back on and get people

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Speaker 1: back in seats, get people back flying for business purposes. Um.

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Speaker 1: So it will be interesting to see how this plays

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Speaker 1: out from you know, a liquidity standpoint. The longer this last,

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Speaker 1: clearly the worst it is for the very highly leveraged issuers.

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Speaker 1: And that's the big concern is what happens in the

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Speaker 1: leverage loan market. What happens in the fringes of high

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Speaker 1: ye old and single bees and triple c s. You know,

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Speaker 1: these issuers generally don't have twelve or twenty four months

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Speaker 1: of liquidity. Similarly, you know, small businesses across the US

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Speaker 1: generally don't have all that much extra liquidity just sitting

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Speaker 1: on hand to kind of manage through these issues. Um.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that's where the federal government has

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Speaker 1: to come in with fiscal stimulus and they basically have

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Speaker 1: to you know, tell us how much time they think

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Speaker 1: this is going to take to remedy and then also

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Speaker 1: provide that stop gap liquidity to get things moving back

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Speaker 1: in the right direction again. You know when you obviously

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Speaker 1: the big elephant in the room during the global financial

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Speaker 1: crisis a decade ago was the credit the fault swap market. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's simply just grown way too big, bigger

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Speaker 1: than the amount of debt that it was actually ensuring. Um.

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Speaker 1: Once again we're hearing the words CDs and credit the

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Speaker 1: fault swaps again. It's kind of kind of a a

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Speaker 1: sense of shiver up your spine to some degree. But

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Speaker 1: my sense is that, um, it's not quite the elephant

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Speaker 1: in the room. It was at one point that all

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Speaker 1: the reforms uh that have been done uh in the

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Speaker 1: inner interim have have made them less of a sort

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Speaker 1: of a uh systematic risk. I'm curious, you know, is

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Speaker 1: that is that the right take on that? And if so,

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Speaker 1: are there other sort of pockets of the credit markets

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Speaker 1: that we should be worrying about, Like you mentioned leverage loans, uh, uh,

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Obviously that is a very weekly

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Speaker 1: performing sector at the momentum. But I'm just curious, what

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Speaker 1: do you think of, you know, the sort of CDs

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Speaker 1: market as it stands now in compared to back then,

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Speaker 1: and you know, tan generally, are there other sectors in

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Speaker 1: the credit markets that could kind of sneak up on

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Speaker 1: us and and be that elephant in the room the

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Speaker 1: way credit the fault swaps were a decade ago. Sure,

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Speaker 1: I mean there there are a few. So when it

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Speaker 1: comes to CDs specifically, that market has been very much transformed.

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Speaker 1: You know, we don't have the risk of these pervasive

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Speaker 1: bilateral CDs contracts where you're also exposed to know, massive

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Speaker 1: counter party risk. There's been a pretty robust um clearing

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Speaker 1: facility put in place and I know from a number

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Speaker 1: of the investors that I speak with in the US,

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Speaker 1: you know, they prefer to use the cleared CDs. So

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Speaker 1: that market is a much more regulated, functioning market than

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Speaker 1: it used to be, and it also is a lot

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Speaker 1: smaller um than it used to be. So you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't worry at night about the CDs market. Now.

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Speaker 1: Where I do worry is leverage loans and then the

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Speaker 1: growth of what people refer to as the private credit market,

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Speaker 1: where because of regulation on banks and because of just

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Speaker 1: an absolute lack of yield in the system for much

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Speaker 1: of the post crisis period, we've seen a lot of

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Speaker 1: growth in these you know, smaller kind of clubby or

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Speaker 1: direct lending deals UM that traditionally would have been the

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Speaker 1: purview of the big banks and now have that risk

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Speaker 1: has been moved somewhere else UM. And you know a

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Speaker 1: lot of it is pension funds that are now involved

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Speaker 1: in private credits. Oh, you know, it's it's the end

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Speaker 1: investor who is exposed to potential severe default rates and

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Speaker 1: pretty dramatic losses on you know, capital that is locked

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Speaker 1: up in this private credit markets. On the leverage loan

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Speaker 1: side of things, there has been tremendous growth in the

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Speaker 1: in the broadly syndicated loan markets um it now stands

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Speaker 1: at about the same size as the US high yield markets.

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Speaker 1: And there's also been a lot of degradation and fundamentals,

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Speaker 1: So you saw a lot of loan only capital structures,

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Speaker 1: which means that there is no unsecured debt. So if

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Speaker 1: if you have a first lean loan in a loan

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Speaker 1: only capital structure, it really makes you wonder about recovery

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Speaker 1: assumptions because there's there's no cushion for the blow there

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Speaker 1: when when things go really bad. So, you know, loan

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Speaker 1: in private credit are two of the things that I

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Speaker 1: am thinking about within this context because I think that

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Speaker 1: ultimately what happens is government intervention is going to be

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Speaker 1: um kind of barbelled where the biggest corporations, the airlines,

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Speaker 1: the um, the real you know name brands that are

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Speaker 1: getting very hit in this economic slowdown. I think that

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Speaker 1: they're ultimately going to come through at the other end

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Speaker 1: because the government is going to provide support. And then

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Speaker 1: also I think that there's a tremendous focus on main

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Speaker 1: street now and these smaller businesses and trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out how do we you know, have have them, have

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Speaker 1: provided them enough liquidity to to manage through this. But

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Speaker 1: then there's this kind of middle ground of the economy

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Speaker 1: where you're not necessarily big enough to um get the

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Speaker 1: government's attention, but you're you're probably too big to benefit

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Speaker 1: from kind of the smaller you know, micro loan um

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Speaker 1: type packages that may ultimately come to fruition. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: almost seems like wall streets easier to bail out than

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Speaker 1: main street. You know, in the in the financial crisis,

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Speaker 1: you knew where to point the fire hose at the

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Speaker 1: big banks. Uh, in this situation, it just seems like

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Speaker 1: the fire could be all around you, which just it

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Speaker 1: seems like a very tricky thing, uh, for the government

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Speaker 1: to wrap its head around. And I think that that

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Speaker 1: is something that we have tried to point out to

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Speaker 1: regulators and in our you know, just discussions and we've

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Speaker 1: had discussions with investors, is you can never fully eliminate

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Speaker 1: risk from the system, no matter how much relators would

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Speaker 1: like to try. You can shift risk around, and what's

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Speaker 1: ultimately happened is risk is now held on you know,

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Speaker 1: the balance sheet of most Americans in terms of you know,

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Speaker 1: what's in there for one k a what's in their

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Speaker 1: pension plan? Um? Because it's been much more of this

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Speaker 1: kind of shadow banking direct lending system that's emerged to

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Speaker 1: work around some of the regulatory issues that were put

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Speaker 1: in place and constrained the big banks. Absolutely, we are

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Speaker 1: really facing surreal times and crazy times, and it's true,

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Speaker 1: it's just hard to know where where do you direct

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Speaker 1: that fire hose? Where do you direct your efforts if

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Speaker 1: so many people across the spectrum are going to be affected? Yeah, Sarah,

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Speaker 1: was that a tease? They're the crazy times? Trying to

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Speaker 1: set you up a little bit when he did they

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Speaker 1: tell you about our gimmick. Here the craziest thing I

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Speaker 1: saw in markets? I was giving a little bit of

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Speaker 1: advanced warning and I also was doing my diligence and

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Speaker 1: listening to a few of the podcasts are there, So

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Speaker 1: that did actually radar. So we'll start with you, what's

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Speaker 1: the craziest thing you saw in markets this week? I

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Speaker 1: know it was a pretty tame week, not much going on,

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Speaker 1: but something have many that I can talk about. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, the first one, which is I'm still trying

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Speaker 1: to wrap my head around, is in the investment grade

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Speaker 1: corporate bond market, Tuesday of this week was the biggest

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Speaker 1: new issue volume day this year, so spreads, you know,

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Speaker 1: more than more than double what they were earlier this year.

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Speaker 1: We were still able to price twenty seven billion of

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Speaker 1: i G bonds at an average coupon of three and

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Speaker 1: a half percent, which over the long term perspective, is

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Speaker 1: still a very attractive cost of capital for most investment

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Speaker 1: grade companies. What did I tell you about the help

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Speaker 1: of the market, So you know, I keep facilitating between

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Speaker 1: believing it's a tremendously engaging sign and a very terrifying sign.

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Speaker 1: Because on the one hand, if these deals are clean

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Speaker 1: clearing the market still able to borrow at you know,

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Speaker 1: very attractive eights, then that is a long term positive

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Speaker 1: thing for investors. Now, then I kind of look back

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Speaker 1: at at where yields went during the Great Financial Crisis,

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Speaker 1: because you know, in in many other markets we've we've

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Speaker 1: seen much more of a repricing of you know, cost

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Speaker 1: of capital um. And then I begin to wonder, you know,

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Speaker 1: are these investors using up their liquidity flower power too quickly?

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Speaker 1: I certainly hope they're not um, But you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna be the optimist and say the glasses half full.

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Speaker 1: And if the credit markets are continuing to function and

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Speaker 1: the new issue market is open, then that is that

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Speaker 1: is an encouraging, you know, glimmer of hope across financial markets.

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Speaker 1: The hunt for yield survives another day, yes, indeed. And

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Speaker 1: then you know, at the other end of the spectrum,

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Speaker 1: still in the investment grade market, there are some issuers

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Speaker 1: where the front end of the curve is so severely

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Speaker 1: inverted that you can buy an I G bond that

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Speaker 1: has a maturity this year for call it. And then

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Speaker 1: if we look at the cash on hand from revolver

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Speaker 1: drawdowns and cash balances, they are covered in that bond

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Speaker 1: with cash on hand, you know, multiples over. So there's

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Speaker 1: there's a tremendous dislocation between you know what some parts

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Speaker 1: of the market are telling you and then other parts

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Speaker 1: of the market, and it's trying to figure out, you know,

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Speaker 1: which signals should we believe in, which signals are falced on? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and so much of that must just be this

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Speaker 1: this dollar funding squeeze and the liquidity issues, I would imagine, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: a lot of it. It just has to do with

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Speaker 1: money markets, dollar funding and the front end of the curve.

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Speaker 1: Crazy times Sarah, how about you, what did you see

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Speaker 1: this week? I have too, but I'll keep it pretty

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Speaker 1: short and simple. One just Monday was absolutely insane. You

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Speaker 1: have another circuit pricket trigger and then I mentioned it,

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Speaker 1: But the vix ving to the highest level on records,

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Speaker 1: so above any single point of the global financial crisis

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Speaker 1: back in O eight oh nine. Um, pretty unbelievable. But

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Speaker 1: then just another interesting story. I thought, we have the

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Speaker 1: US government now talking about the idea of helicopter money,

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Speaker 1: but Facebook is moving ahead of the curve. They've already

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Speaker 1: said that they're giving each of its employees a one

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Speaker 1: thousand dollar bonus to help support them during the outbreak.

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Speaker 1: So just an insight to what some companies are already

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Speaker 1: trying to do to help alleviate any pain from their employees. Alright,

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Speaker 1: very good, very good. Well in the spirit of de regulation, Sarah,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna bend the rules a little bit

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Speaker 1: on this. You've been the rulest like five weeks. But

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Speaker 1: because are trying times, go ahead, they're trying times. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: the virus is the most important thing UH markets are

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Speaker 1: dealing with right now. So I'm I'm found some very

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Speaker 1: crazy virus related stories, not necessarily market related stories. But

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Speaker 1: if you have a terminal, I highly recommend you run

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Speaker 1: the function and I odd. It just finds all the

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Speaker 1: odd stories from the Internet and compiles it into one place.

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Speaker 1: It's it's really worth the subscription price alone. So let

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Speaker 1: me give you some of the craziest coronavirus stories I've

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Speaker 1: seen out there. Uh, New York Post is way ahead

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Speaker 1: of the game on this, I will say. And they

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Speaker 1: had one story a man in Spain. You know, obviously

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Speaker 1: there's a shortage of face masks, so this guy in

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Speaker 1: Spain decided to get in his t Rex costume. It's

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Speaker 1: one of those inflatable t Rex costumes, and he was

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Speaker 1: wandering around Spain. But they arrested him, I guess because

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Speaker 1: he's he's not supposed to be outside, but he was

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Speaker 1: breaking the quarantine. Yes, yes, Also in the post here,

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Speaker 1: I'll just read the headline cheating husband catches coronavirus on

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Speaker 1: trip to Italy with mistress. Oh no, oh no, Karma

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Speaker 1: is alive and well in the time of the coronavirus.

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Speaker 1: And finally, this this one is vaguely markets related. And

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Speaker 1: this is my favorite from CBS. Bernie made Off is

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Speaker 1: among the famous inmates out there who want an early

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Speaker 1: release because of coronavirus. He's a in his eighties. He's

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Speaker 1: worried that if the virus hits the the prison that

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Speaker 1: he will be susceptible at that age, one of the

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Speaker 1: people at risk. So I don't know when you think

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Speaker 1: they should? Should they spring? Bernie made off because of

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Speaker 1: the virus? What do you think? I feel like you're

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Speaker 1: almost safer in prison from the coronavirus than you are

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Speaker 1: outside of prison. That's just my my take on it.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a little bit out of my wheelhouse.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna smart answer smart. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: Bernie's gonna get away with this one. It seems it

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Speaker 1: seems like a uh. Well. With that said, trying to

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Speaker 1: keep a lighter tone in the midst of all of

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Speaker 1: this when he's he's are we know you're coming to

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Speaker 1: us from so we really appreciate you taking the time today.

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Speaker 1: Happy to be here. This was a welcome deviation from

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Speaker 1: steering at the screens. What goes up? We'll be back

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Speaker 1: next week. Until then, you can find us on the

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Speaker 1: Blueberg Terminal website and app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: We love it if you took the time to rate

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Speaker 1: interview the show on Apple Podcasts so more listeners can

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Speaker 1: find us. And you can find us on Twitter, follow

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Speaker 1: me at at Sarah Pontzack, Mike is that Reaganonymous, and

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Speaker 1: you can also follow us on Bluemberg Podcasts at podcasts.

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Speaker 1: What Goes Up is produced by Topur Forehead. The head

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Speaker 1: of Bloomberg podcast is Francesco Leavi. Thanks for listening, See

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Speaker 1: you next time. Oh