WEBVTT - Tesla Surrenders EV Crown to BYD After 8.6 % Sales Decline 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:10.559 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:14.560 Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at ten am 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:17.880 Eastern on Apple Coarclay, and Android Auto with the Bloomberg 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:21.040 Business App. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:23.080 or watch us live on YouTube. 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:26.720 Let's bring in our global autos Zar right now. Craig 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:30.440 Trudell joins us out of London. He covers all the 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:33.840 carmakers and has around the world, but focuses in because 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:37.360 he also is the editor of the Hyperdrive newsletter. 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:39.400 On EV's and we're seeing really. 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:47.520 A changing, a changing c here in terms of EV demand, Craig, 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.639 certainly in the US, and that reads out well in 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:53.840 the drop in Tesla sales, doesn't it. 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:55.080 It absolutely does, I think. 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:57.240 You know, it was interesting earlier this week to see 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:01.279 Tesla come out with its own company compiled census. 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:02.560 For these delivery figures. 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:05.160 You know, it's sort of turned a lot of heads 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:07.640 because the average estimate that they put in in their 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:12.000 release was much lower than the Bloomberg compiled average estimate. 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:14.959 It turns out that Tesla came up short even of 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:17.119 their own lower. 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:19.559 Expectations that they pulled together. 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:22.440 It wasn't by much, and so we're not seeing a 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:24.440 huge move in the shares at least for the moment. 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:28.360 But we did see the company's stock price kind of 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:31.880 stumble in the last few sessions of the year, perhaps 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:34.200 in anticipation of the fact that these numbers were going 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:35.000 to be a bit soft. 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:38.480 How do what's the view out there in the marketplace 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:42.119 at craig about how committed Tesla is to its core 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:45.160 auto business visa vs. Some of the other businesses that 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:48.720 Tesla's involved in. That seems to have attracted Elon's real 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:51.360 attention and the attention to the marketplace in general. 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:55.120 Yeah, I mean, I would say, you know, if we 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:57.840 were to sort of break down, you know, maybe use 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:00.680 Groc his chatbot to break down how much which he's 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:06.000 talking about his humanoid robot optimists versus you know, Tesla's 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:08.799 sort of core business, I think it would be no contests. 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:12.040 I mean, he does also talk quite a bit about robotaxis. 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:15.400 And yet in terms of execution there, you know, we 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:19.200 have vehicles in Austin and in the San Francisco Bay 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:23.760 area that are operating still with people supervising upfront. And 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:26.840 you know, yes, the company did do some testing towards 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:30.160 the very end of the year, you know, some driverless testing, 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:32.720 but you know that would put them years behind Weimo 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:33.480 on that front. 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:35.680 You've not seen them scale up a. 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:39.560 Quote unquote robotaxi business the way Weimo has now in 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:41.200 many cities across the US. 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:42.040 Craig. 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:44.519 We had a Bloomberg client writing in earlier with the 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.720 tongue in cheek comment about how many robots Tesla has sold. 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:50.840 But it's interesting, you know, the company is valued at 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:53.160 one and a half trillion dollars, not because it sells 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:57.960 one point eight million cars a year, but because investors 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:02.200 have faith in Elon Musk's I guess creativity and success 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:05.160 in future endeavors like robots. 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.400 What do we know about what else Tesla could do 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:09.120 to make money? 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:12.960 Yeah, I mean I think that's a really good question, 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.799 and I guess I would put that more so focus 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.600 that more so on the question of robotaxis. And I think, 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:22.560 you know, with Waimo, we know very little at this 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:26.800 juncture about you know, just how profitable Weimo's business is. 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.800 I think we can you know, make a pretty informed, 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:33.520 you know, assumption that they're losing quite a bit of money. 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:39.320 The company is regularly raising a lot of cash from 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:43.200 primarily from Alphabet and has knock gone public. So we've 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:46.480 not seen you know, what sort of figures they have internally, 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:48.640 but you know, I think that's one of the things 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:51.240 that's going to be interesting to watch play out in 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:54.640 twenty twenty six is, you know, everybody is very excited 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.360 about robo taxis, and for good reason. It's really neat 0:03:57.400 --> 0:03:59.720 to sit in a car with no one behind the wheel. 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:02.720 The question I have is, of course, you know, how 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:06.320 quickly can we scale that capability in a way that's 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.360 actually generating money? And I think, you know, some people 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:11.400 are willing to give us the benefit of the doubt, 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:14.400 as you mentioned, and willing to also take him at 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:17.360 his word that he can scale quicker, you know, sort 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:20.760 of over a longer time period. But in terms of 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:23.400 you know, here and now, who actually has cars on 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.320 the road that don't have drivers behind the human drivers 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:29.400 behind the wheel, Weimo is ahead of Tesla, and it's 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:32.760 not at all close because we've not seen Tesla actually 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:33.520 commercialize that. 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:38.320 Stay with us. More from Bloomberg Intelligence coming up after this. 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:45.600 You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence podcast. Catch us Live 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:48.799 weekdays at ten am Eastern on Apple Cocklay and Android 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.120 Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand wherever 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:55.279 you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube. 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:57.920 Let's talk about deep Seek. Yes, it is back in 0:04:58.000 --> 0:04:58.279 the news. 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.040 Deep Seek is going to soon release new AIMI model 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:02.320 that could up end. 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.000 The sector like it did just a year ago. 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:06.520 The company just published a paper that outlines ways to 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:10.600 develop AI that improves scalability while reducing the computational and 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:14.240 energy demands of training the model, or so it claims to. 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.119 Let's bring in Bloomberg Tech co host ed Ludlow, who's 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:18.000 in San Francisco. 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:18.440 Ed. 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:20.680 Is this going to do the same thing as. 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:24.320 Last February when the markets are roctions or are we 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:26.480 sort of used to the fact now that other people 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:27.479 can do AI too? 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:31.520 Yeah, it's certainly kind of a repeat of the format 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.159 that Deep seekers is kind of utized, where they publish 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:36.680 a white paper and the white paper or research and 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:39.960 it kind of explains that because of constraints on Chinese 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:43.760 technology companies, principally a lack of access to the lead 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:47.080 edge AI chips, they have to get clever from a 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:50.080 computer science perspective on the architectures, how a model is 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.360 weave together, how it is trained, the data it uses, 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:57.160 et cetera. And again they've just published a white paper 0:05:57.160 --> 0:05:59.800 that would suggest they found another way of doing that that, 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:04.000 as you pointed out, it's computationally and from an energy perspective, 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:08.240 much more efficient. But it's often a precursor to the 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:10.839 release of a wider model. So what we're waiting on 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:13.360 is what most people refer to as deep seek are 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:17.839 two the kind of next large scale frontier model and 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:20.080 the expectations that that will come in February or March, 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:23.120 and depending on how it performs and ranks in the tables, 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:28.200 could potentially upend the kind of marketplace right now, which 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:31.000 includes competition with American frontier labs for models. 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:33.560 So if we had that deep seek news again a 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:36.039 year ago and it really up ended the market, yeah, 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:38.160 is it just me that I haven't really heard too 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:39.960 much about deep seek since then? 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:43.159 I mean, yeah, I don't know. I mean two things. 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:45.520 The first is that deep seek has continued to work 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:49.039 on smaller models with fewer parameters, and it takes time 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:53.760 to train very very large models. But kind of what 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.000 happened in the kind of eruption of February, March and 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.479 April of last year in the financial markets is when 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:02.560 Deep Seak started publishing its evidence and the performance of 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:05.560 its models and what it took to train them. Everyone 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:07.919 was like, well, huh, hold on a minute. It didn't 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:09.960 cost you guys very much. It was a lot cheaper 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:12.600 than what the American companies are doing, and you didn't 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.040 have access to all this technology that is propping up 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:18.840 the entire market, right, and so it kind of raised 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:22.520 the question why are we so bullish and all of 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:26.200 this in America's context, like all of our evidence for 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:30.520 this market rally or to that point, because remember, like 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:32.440 within video in a mag seven, this was a multi 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:35.440 year thing was because of all the spending and the 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:40.880 performance of those chips. But the present day, the way 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:43.679 that we compare the performance different models is peer review 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.520 and performance tables and in the kind of free, lower 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:50.720 cost Chinese models are up there. And so that's why 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:52.360 we're kind of bracing for R two and what it 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:54.320 might show us in terms. 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:57.600 Of performance ed what do we know about what chips 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:01.120 Deepseek is using And was there just a little bit 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:04.320 of skepticism that maybe Deep Sea might be using some 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:06.000 kind of in video chip at one point. 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:10.680 Yeah, there have been media reports that deep Seek and 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:15.840 other Chinese firms were able to get access to the 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:21.240 latest generation of Nvidia GPUs by acquiring them from data 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:26.880 centers in permitted countries, disassembling those data centers, and then 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:30.920 essentially smuggling them through a third country. Go on to 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:33.360 Bloomberg dot Com or the Terminal read the very detailed 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.319 reporting on that. There was also a lot of skepticism 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:41.120 about that reporting because right now in Nvidia is severely 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:44.920 supply constrained. Any demand that's out there accounts for all 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:47.240 the chips they're ever going to make, and as one 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:50.480 source put it to me, you don't just sort of 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:53.800 see thousands of black well chips go missing, such is 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:56.240 the demand for them. So it was something that at 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:58.959 the time in Vidia issued a statement straight away and said, 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.079 you don't see any evidence of sort of these missing 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:05.000 chips that are being smuggled through different countries. But therein 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:07.000 lies the point of why you're asking me about deep 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:10.280 Seek and it's white paper. It's what China's technology companies 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:12.840 are able to do without access to those chips. That 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:14.160 is the main focus. 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.480 Stay with us. More from Bloomberg Intelligence coming up after this. 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:25.040 You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:28.199 weekdays at ten am Eastern on Apple, Cocklay and Android 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:31.520 Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:35.120 you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube. 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:37.600 From January to year round moderation. 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.360 Non Alcoholic beer is booming. Bill Schufeldt is the co 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:43.800 founder and CEO of Athletic Brewing Company. I'm sure you've 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:46.840 seen those cans in the stores or perhaps your local bar. 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.680 It's one of the nation's top non alcoholic beer brands. 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:51.840 He joins us now in studio to talk about what's 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:55.880 on tap for Booseless SuDS. So, Bill, this is an 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.600 insane growth story that you've just been telling me. So 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:02.400 you started actually what ten years ago, and now your 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:04.480 ten x or the market is ten x. 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:06.079 Explain what you were just telling us. 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.160 For sure, it's it's been a really fun ride. We 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.240 started the non alcoholic beer market basically had flatline for 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:14.800 thirty years before ten years ago. Where we came in 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:17.160 and liked to think we reimagined both the product and 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:19.439 the marketing of the category, taking out of the penalty 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:24.200 box into the mainstream with delicious flavors, and we've taken 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.160 it as a category from about one hundred million to 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:30.120 passing a billion dollars in the US market this year, 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.000 and we think that could continue to grow. We expected 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:35.240 to five x in the next ten years, with Athletic 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.280 being twenty five percent of that market. Right now, Athletic 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:41.719 is about eighteen point four share the total category. The 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:44.400 next biggest is about fourteen and a half share, and 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:46.439 that it's another four point dropped to the next brand 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:49.439 behind that. Athletics also fifty two share of the non 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.400 al called craft beer category, which has well over one 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:55.320 hundred brand So we're outsiding the next one hundred plus combined. 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:59.400 And it's really meeting those that next generation of consumers 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:00.400 where they're at. 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:02.960 What's been the response competitive response from some of the 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:05.040 big brewers, which I can't even know the names now 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:08.760 they've all merged into one big entity, I think for sure. 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.480 So as you've heard on this segment before too, over 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:16.040 forty percent of consumers are doing dry January this year, 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:19.320 Over fifty percent of consumers now view one or two 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:21.959 drinks today as unhealthy, and a record low number of 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:24.720 Americans are also consuming alcohol on a weekly basis. So 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:29.040 this is a huge growth opportunity for the adult beverage market, 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:32.520 and a lot of companies relate to that. But over 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:35.040 the last five years, basically every major brand has entered 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:38.800 that category with an alcoholic analog to our non alcoholic 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:44.040 analog to their full strength version, and we really appreciate 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:45.440 that support and growing the category. 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:47.720 It's so funny to me, because I didn't have an 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:50.840 alcoholic beverage in my life until I was nearly thirty. 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:53.480 I think, and I wonder what makes somebody reach for 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:56.360 a non alcoholic beer when there are so many other 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:58.400 drinks that are already non alcoholic out there. 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.319 For sure, it's so when we start Athletic and I 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:04.800 would try to get people to taste samples or buy 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:07.160 one of our beers. Getting people to cross that barrier 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:09.880 was so hard seven or eight years ago. But I 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:11.839 think the light bulb that goes on over and over 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:15.000 again for people is that it is such a delicious 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:17.320 meal pairing at a fraction of the calories as a 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.440 full strength alcohol equivalent. For example, we were just talking 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:22.560 about before I came in, how our Athletic light is 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:26.240 twenty five calories no sugar light and carbs, but a 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:29.360 full taste that's like a perfect guilt free weeknight beer. 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:31.680 And then we brought a ton of innovation to the 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:35.960 market too. For example, we're now launching an excited lineup 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:39.559 of non alcoholic brewed cocktails this January at select retailers 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:44.000 like Target, and all these different fond flavored. 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:46.839 Like what give us a foretaste? 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:50.040 Yeah, so we have off that Athletic light logger. We 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:52.920 have an Athletic Light Limeman salt launching this year, and 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.320 in a typical year we launch almost fifty different styles 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:59.439 of beers on our website Athletic Brewing dot com. Where 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:02.960 before Athletic Brewing this category was a logger only category. 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:05.240 So from day one, we've really blown the lid off 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:08.280 what taste and availability can be in this category. 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:12.120 Who's typical athletic drinker customer? 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:15.000 So when we came into the category, this category was 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:18.640 typically a lapsed alcoholic drinker. It was very male heavy, 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.679 it was an older population generally, and since we've redefined 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:24.640 the product and marketing of the category, we've seen that 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.199 drift younger and younger every year. We think forty five 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:31.760 percent of our consumers are below age forty five very 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:35.800 heavy in gen Z consumers really, as people have grown 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:39.120 up in this digital generation where you have your work 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:41.319 in your pocket at all times, everything in your life 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:44.960 is filmed and recorded and on record. And people still 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:47.200 like to drink, but then they like to zebra stripe 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:49.120 and work in non alcoholic and options. 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:50.800 Like zebra striping. And I heard that and I forgot 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:51.240 it already. 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:54.160 Yeah, sorry, jumped right over that. It's it's basically we 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:56.720 And this has been shocking to me. I hear from 0:13:56.760 --> 0:13:59.320 bartenders all the time that people order alcoholic drinks non 0:13:59.360 --> 0:13:59.960 alcoholic alto. 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:00.920 Oh okay, I got you. 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.280 Okay, it's a brilliant idea. You could put food in 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.240 there too, That would actually be a better idea. Curians, 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:07.200 how do you do it? 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:09.520 You have so many options and as you say, you're 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:11.839 trying out different ones all the time, I mean, are 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:12.440 you very. 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:14.760 Non profitable or how does it work? That costs a 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:15.360 lot of money? 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:18.320 Well, at the end of the day. In our retail lineup, 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:20.920 we're very focused. We have a core group of about 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:23.640 five beers which are very popular and highly awarded. We 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.440 won thirty three Taste Awards last year alone and have 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:28.840 won about one hundred and eighty five Taste Awards. Since 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:32.960 you know, there's there's been a plethora of entrance into 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:37.000 this category from major brewers to there's been ten celebrity 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:40.160 brands with more on the way, and almost none of 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:43.440 these companies make their own beer, where Athletic has gone 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:45.600 the other way. We invested one hundred and thirty million 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:49.600 into our own manufacturing, our brewing quality teams, and ultimately, 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:53.720 consumers like to know, they want to get the best 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.120 products and like to know what's behind their products. And 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:59.680 after that celebrity hype, they've really loved what they found 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:02.880 in that Athletic and so we really try to stay 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:05.200 focused in our retail lineup and bring people the best 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:06.520 beers over and over again. 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:08.800 I got to put my investment backer hat back on. 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:11.400 How do you capitalize your company? Always fascinate to see 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:14.880 how these private companies and entrepreneurial companies how they fan themselves. 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:18.200 Yeah, it's such an interesting Like I came from the 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:20.720 financial world, it's such an interesting world these days between 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:24.000 private and public capital. And we've been so fortunate to 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:27.840 have great access to private capital, from angel investors to 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:32.040 private equity investors like Aligance. Consumer growth in General Atlantic 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.520 and an institutional investor in Kurg Doctor Pepper, and that's 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:38.360 afforded us the opportunity over the past eight years to 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:40.800 invest one hundred and thirty million dollars into our US 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:44.760 manufacturing base. Non all called breweries and taperms weren't a 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:47.560 thing before Athletic in the country. We built the first one, 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:49.920 and since then we've built them that are one hundred 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:52.840 times the output of the original brewery on both coasts 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:57.440 and in that world we have found really good access 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:01.320 to private to capital in the private market. But ultimately 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:03.400 it is really exciting for us to think about potentially 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.840 being a public company or running a long term private company. 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:07.160 Yeah. 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:08.720 I want to ask you more about that, but first 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:10.840 I have to say the marketing is brilliant because you're 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:16.160 you know, you're a nonancoholic brewery, but you're targeting athletes 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:19.160 and people who go for hikes and you know, serious 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:22.880 mountaineers and dog lovers and outdoors the people. I mean, 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:26.200 it's just it's amazing. So what is the trajectory that 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:28.520 you see before going public? I mean, you're going to 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:31.280 open breweries around the country. Are you going to have 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:32.400 you know, bars? 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:32.880 Is that? 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:34.720 Is that something that can be profitable now to the 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.040 bottom line, or you know, is it better to have 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:39.080 people just subscribe and sort of have it as a 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:42.920 you know, beer as a service software is Yeah. 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.640 Well, in terms of our target customer, I basically built 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:49.080 the target customer around my lifestyle because I was authentically 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:53.480 living this as a busy professional, love the outdoors. Seventy 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.400 percent of the population considers the self an athlete. Even 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:58.600 though you'll never find me on any podiums anywhere. I 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.360 love being out there and participate, and so it was 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:06.560 really about that health and wellness trend. And then yeah, 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:10.479 beyond that, our awareness is still very low. It's about 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:14.720 twenty five percent nationally, so we have and our distribution 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:17.359 is only about thirty nine percent with our top product, 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:20.159 where a lot of the major beer companies, even in 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.600 our category, even though athletics the number one, have double 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:26.560 our distribution. So we have a huge amount of awareness 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:29.040 and distribution to go over the next five ten years, 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:32.480 and that allows us. We also are trying to open 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:36.080 the aperture who to who drinks beer? Where Beer over 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:38.919 the past thirty years had been marketing the smaller and 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:43.520 smaller audiences, and so this January bringing plans to We're 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:46.600 working with Open Table with a big partnership to expand 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:49.080 into the culinary world chefs and athletes and stuff. 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:53.199 Stay with us. More from Bloomberg Intelligence coming up after this. 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:00.800 You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence podcast. Catch us live 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:03.919 weekdays at ten am Eastern on Apple, Cocklay and Android 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:06.840 Auto with the blue Berg Business app. Listen on demand 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:10.440 wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube. 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:14.520 For more on travel, Now, let's bring in Dakota, Smith's 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:16.439 co founder and president of Hopper. 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:19.720 Dakota, thank you so much for joining. How is business travel? 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:21.960 How's it come back post pandemic to the extent that 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:23.720 we would have liked to come back. 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.440 Yeah, Hi, nice to meet you. The good news this 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:31.240 travel is doing pretty well in the industry. It's mostly 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:36.000 fully recovered since the pandemic. Business travel is finally reaching 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:38.959 its pre pandemic levels and starting to grow. Visure travel 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:41.480 has been you know, it's surpassed the pre pandemic levels 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:43.119 probably in twenty twenty three. 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:45.800 So travel travel out look is still strong. 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:48.680 I mean, people are still spending on travel despite any 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:53.360 biggering concerns, any greater economy. We just did a survey 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:56.720 this year and Traveler said they spent just as much 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.560 as travel on the twenty twenty five holiday season as 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:00.680 they did twenty twenty four. 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:04.960 For example, how are people spending? What are they doing? 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:09.040 Is it's still the experiences that people are looking for. 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:11.879 Here people are spending. 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:16.840 I would say there's probably one trend that is shifting 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:20.200 and has really accelerated post pandemic, which is people are 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:24.120 using their credit card and loyalty programs more and more 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:28.159 when they're booking travel. Obviously, that is partially to offset 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:31.639 the costs. Those things lower the cost. Our business has 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:35.080 really grown around that. For instance, we power travel rewards 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:38.280 and loyalty for probably about ten banks around the world, 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:41.720 including Capital One here in the US, other banks around 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:44.760 the world like Commonwealth Bank of Australia, New Bank in Brazil, 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:47.879 the world's largest neo bank. And we're building these like 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:52.880 integrated travel rewards and loyalty experiences directly on the banking 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:56.239 website or banking apps, so when people are using their 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:59.399 credit cards, they can earn and burn points and kind 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:01.840 of access all of these great travel products like some 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:04.160 of what you were showing on your screen, And that's 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:07.719 a trend that's just really accelerated. Something like twenty percent, 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:10.480 twenty five percent of online travel in the United States 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:13.040 now is being booked directly through a credit card loyalty 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:15.680 program and that's. 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:17.280 Just like much, much higher than it was maybe ten 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:17.760 years ago. 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:20.440