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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions ask if movies have

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Speaker 1: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zephynvest start

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Speaker 1: changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Gone Girl, Hi, Gone Girl.

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Speaker 3: We're just two gone girls living in gone girl worlds

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Speaker 3: where feminism has been solves for now. That is, Oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: gone girls rule the gone world and all of the

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Speaker 3: Nicks live to serve them.

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Speaker 4: Right, And then he has to sing a song about.

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Speaker 3: I'm just nick, you know, exactly exactly I honestly maybe

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Speaker 3: there are parallels. We can't talk about it today. Welcome

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Speaker 3: to the Gone Girl episode of the Bechdel Cast. My

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Speaker 3: name is Jamie Loftus.

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Speaker 4: My name is Caitlin Dernte, and this is our show

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Speaker 4: where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using

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Speaker 4: the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point to

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Speaker 4: initiate larger conversations. But Jamie, what is the Bechdel test?

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Speaker 2: Wow?

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Speaker 5: Is it?

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Speaker 4: When two Gone Girls?

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Speaker 5: Oh? No?

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Speaker 2: How like?

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Speaker 3: What bottomized are we that? That is what I was

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Speaker 3: about to say, We're sick. It was like when two

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Speaker 3: gone girls talk about girls being gone. For two gone

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Speaker 3: girls with god names talk to each other about being

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Speaker 3: gone outside of the context of a man for more

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Speaker 3: than two lines of dialogue. If you want to know

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Speaker 3: the actual definition, you could listen to any of our

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Speaker 3: five hundred other episodes. But I think that for today's episode,

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Speaker 3: that should be the new the new rule. Two gone

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Speaker 3: girls talking about being gone. I agree, And there's sort

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Speaker 3: of plenty. There's a couple of gone Girl discussions throughout

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Speaker 3: the course of this movie, and I feel like also

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Speaker 3: Amy is in discussion with herself for so much of

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Speaker 3: the movie.

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Speaker 5: I just.

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Speaker 3: This is going to be an episode. The Bechdel Test,

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Speaker 3: if you're not aware, was originally created by queer cartoonist

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Speaker 3: Alice at Bechdel with Liz Wallace, which is why it's

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Speaker 3: often called the Bechdel Wallace Test. Originally created as a

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Speaker 3: bit a one off in her common collection likes to

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Speaker 3: watch out for about how not just women, but queer

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Speaker 3: people rarely spoke to each other in movies, and it's

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Speaker 3: since taken on a life of its own and been

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Speaker 3: through three thousand discourse cycles. Much like the movie we're

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Speaker 3: talking about today, Gone Girl.

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Speaker 4: And we have a wonderful returning guest here to join

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Speaker 4: us in that discussion.

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Speaker 3: Alzheimer.

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Speaker 4: She's a writer and video essayist in one of our faves.

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Speaker 4: You remember her from our episodes on Space Jam and

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Speaker 4: Wild Things. It's Princess Weeks.

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Speaker 5: Hi, Got Girls, Hi, Girls Girls.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, we're all together, Gone and the three

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Speaker 4: of us. It's like girls gone Wild like that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Girls Gone Wild Things Jam. I love it.

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Speaker 4: So tell us about your history, your relationship with Gone Girl.

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Speaker 5: Oh my god, Well, like I guess, over a decade ago,

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Speaker 5: I read all of Gillian Flynn's books, Shop Objects, I

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Speaker 5: forget what the middle one is called, and then Gone Girl,

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Speaker 5: and I ate them all up. I loved it. And

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Speaker 5: then the movie came out. I saw the movie in

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Speaker 5: theaters with my ex boyfriend. Well that's not why we

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Speaker 5: broke up, but I loved the movie, and I, you know,

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Speaker 5: woke up one day and saw everyone was discoursing it,

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Speaker 5: and I'm just like, but I like it. But I

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Speaker 5: also understand it this course, But I feel like as

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Speaker 5: things have evolved, especially the way this film intersects with

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Speaker 5: like race and gender and like the true crime bubble,

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Speaker 5: I feel like part of what makes it such a

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Speaker 5: fun texted to discussed from like a multitude of different lenses.

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Speaker 5: Is that there is what Gillian Flynn as Word of

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Speaker 5: God says about her work. There is how people feel

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Speaker 5: about the work itself, and there's people who are responding

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Speaker 5: to jillians Flynn's work through anxiety about what men think

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Speaker 5: about Gillian Flynn's work. And I think in all of

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Speaker 5: that you get this really interesting storyteller who really wants

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Speaker 5: to talk about like white female villainy looks like unafraid

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Speaker 5: of caring about what men necessarily think. But it's hard

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Speaker 5: to do that because they're always watching. The Knicks are

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Speaker 5: always watching.

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Speaker 4: It's true, Yeah, Jamie, what about you.

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Speaker 3: I read the book when it first came out, and

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Speaker 3: this was again over ten years ago. I was not

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Speaker 3: really thinking about feminist theory as much at this time.

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Speaker 3: The feminist theory I was thinking about is no longer,

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Speaker 3: I don't know whatever. It's been a while to years

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Speaker 3: for discussions like this. I really enjoyed it. I thought

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Speaker 3: it was very different from what I had sort of

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Speaker 3: come to expect from that genre. And then when I

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Speaker 3: saw the movie, I feel like I secretly liked this

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Speaker 3: movie for a long time. Because I do love to

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Speaker 3: throw myself into a pit of discourse snakes, but the

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Speaker 3: Gone Girl discourse was one that I always shied away

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Speaker 3: from because I was sort of afraid to be like.

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Speaker 3: I like this movie a lot, and I think that

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Speaker 3: it has aged in a really interesting way. I sort

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Speaker 3: of like it for completely different reasons that I liked

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Speaker 3: it when I first saw it, which was more just like,

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Speaker 3: this is an incredibly well written and well performed thriller.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, yeah, I wrote this down

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Speaker 3: get ready, I'm here woman for Gone Girl. I like,

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Speaker 3: I'm the here woman saying that Gone Girl. Good movie,

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Speaker 3: A lot of stuff to talk about, and it was

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Speaker 3: like an interesting trip down twenty fourteen essay Lane to

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Speaker 3: prepare for this episode. And I think that there are

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Speaker 3: a lot of there's a lot of criticism of this

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Speaker 3: movie that is still really prescient and makes a lot

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Speaker 3: of sense. And then I think that there's some criticism

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Speaker 3: that has sort of not held up as well over time.

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Speaker 3: And I do feel like there is a cathartic element

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Speaker 3: to watching Gone Girl and seeing a woman in a

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Speaker 3: fairly quote unquote I mean, and again, this is with

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Speaker 3: an enormous amount of privilege, but in a fairly ordinary

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Speaker 3: marriage that we see in movies all the time, and

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Speaker 3: she's going to kill Neil Patrick Harris about it. And

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Speaker 3: then other things I love in this movie. Tyler Perry

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Speaker 3: dramatic role, jump scare. I always love that.

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Speaker 5: So good.

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Speaker 2: He's so good in this and that's always like, wow,

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Speaker 2: you range.

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Speaker 3: He's Billy Flynn in this Essentially, I was like I

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Speaker 3: would have accepted a song from that character.

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Speaker 2: More like Gilly Flynn.

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Speaker 5: That's screenwriter Caitlin those Hot far Wait who Billy Flynn

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Speaker 5: is from Chicago?

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Speaker 4: Richard Gear of Chicago. Yes, okay he is.

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Speaker 3: I feel like Tyler Perry is the Billy Flynn of

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Speaker 3: this movie anyways. Yes, am Rada dramatic role totally. I

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Speaker 3: feel like there's little elements of this movie. When I

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Speaker 3: watch it every couple of years, you're like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: em Rada, and then you have like cool Tereu.

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I always forget the carry coons in this movie. This

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Speaker 3: movie is like cast so absurdly well except for the

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Speaker 3: fact that I will never believe that a Ben Affleck

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Speaker 3: character is from Missouri. Unfortunately, you just have to change

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Speaker 3: the location if you're going to cast him in the

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Speaker 3: Leaf Austen. Yeah, yeah, they should have moved to Southee

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Speaker 3: and that's just unfortunately true. Anyways, I like the book,

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Speaker 3: I like the movie, and I'm ready to be read

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Speaker 3: for filth.

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Speaker 2: But it's true. Caitlin, what's your history with God Girl?

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm about to say two potentially shocking things here

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Speaker 4: to twists. Wow, maybe twist number one. I had never

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Speaker 4: seen this movie until.

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Speaker 2: Ye shock. I love that for you. This is shocking news.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you saw every movie that came out in the

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Speaker 3: last thirty years.

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Speaker 4: I thought so too, but somehow, Well, I'll tell you why,

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Speaker 4: which connects to the second twist, which is I did

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Speaker 4: read the book in twenty fourteen, even though we famously

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Speaker 4: don't read books on this show.

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Speaker 2: What brought you to the book?

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Speaker 4: My roommate who I was bunking with when I did

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Speaker 4: the like Be You in LA, because I of course

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Speaker 4: would never mention that I got a master's degree in

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Speaker 4: screenwriting from Boston Universe City. And something I probably actually

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Speaker 4: never mentioned is that I did like an optional extra

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Speaker 4: semester in LA, which is like what prompted my move

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Speaker 4: here in twenty fourteen, and the roommate I had during

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Speaker 4: that semester, was like, I just finished this amazing book. Here,

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Speaker 4: you can borrow it. So she let me Gone Girl,

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Speaker 4: and I read it within the course of like a

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Speaker 4: pretty short amount of time. Usually takes me forever to

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Speaker 4: read books, because I read three pages and then I

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Speaker 4: fall asleep for two weeks, and then I read another

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Speaker 4: three pages. Anyway, but I read it within a couple weeks,

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Speaker 4: I think, and the book rubbed me the wrong way,

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Speaker 4: in a way that I still can't put my finger

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Speaker 4: on exactly. I have some kind of vague ideas of

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Speaker 4: why it didn't really work for me, and I feel

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Speaker 4: like I still have those sensations. But yeah, I think

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Speaker 4: reading the book bok made me not want to watch

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Speaker 4: the movie, even though I just love a David Fincher

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Speaker 4: thriller or David Fincher movie in general. I mean, seven

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Speaker 4: haven't seen it in a number of years, but like

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Speaker 4: it was one of my favorite movies in my teens

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Speaker 4: and early twenties. I love the Social Network. I really

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Speaker 4: liked Girl with a Dragon Tattoo, Like I'm a fan

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Speaker 4: of his thrillers. But I was like, this new movie

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Speaker 4: is really good too, The Killer. Yeah, whatever, I heard

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Speaker 4: that yeah, I miss I didn't see that one yeh

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Speaker 4: is on Netflix, but uh yeah, I was like not

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Speaker 4: really thrilled about seeing this movie after reading the book,

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Speaker 4: so I just never got around to it until now.

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Speaker 5: I think it's so funny Kylene, because I've always said it.

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Speaker 5: I think of her three books, I think Gone Girl

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Speaker 5: is the weakest. I love sharp Objects, the most dark

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Speaker 5: places of the second one, and I felt like the

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Speaker 5: third one is the most funny enough. It's the most

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Speaker 5: normy of all of her works, and it's the most

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Speaker 5: that gives you the twist half way, so that I

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Speaker 5: think with the rest of the books, you fund it

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Speaker 5: out later and it's much more of like a psychological

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Speaker 5: examination for like the female character, and it's the first

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Speaker 5: time she's like, it's this dual narrative where a man

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Speaker 5: is present, and I will get into it. I think,

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Speaker 5: I think I'm picking up what your vibe was off.

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Speaker 5: But we'll get there. Yeah, yeah, Princess, when did you?

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Speaker 3: Because I definitely I just got the audiobook from the

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Speaker 3: library because rewatching the movie made me want to re

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Speaker 3: listen to the book because I definitely read it over

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Speaker 3: ten years ago, and all I remember, I mean and

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Speaker 3: it's cool that we have an adaptation here that's actually

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Speaker 3: adapted by the author. But like, I just remember the

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Speaker 3: book being even harsher and like, yeah, the language, that's

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Speaker 3: because half of it is from Nick's perspective, which I mean,

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Speaker 3: you do get Nick's perspective a lot in the movie,

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Speaker 3: but you don't get the like his inner monologue, which

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Speaker 3: I remembered and then I had to go back and

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Speaker 3: confirm this, but his inner monologue is like every woman

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Speaker 3: he encountered. He is like this bitch, like yeah, everything,

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Speaker 3: which I want to revisit it. I haven't read the

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Speaker 3: other books me either.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. I really love Sharp Objects and Dark Places. I

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Speaker 5: think they're both really good. I think you're so right.

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Speaker 5: In the book, Nick is much less of a victim of,

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Speaker 5: like clearly domestic violence as he is in the movie.

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Speaker 5: It's definitely more of They're both pretty narcissistic. But still,

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Speaker 5: you know, just because he cheats, only you technically can't

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Speaker 5: frame him for murder, though I do understand the inclination.

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Speaker 5: I think my one big note I had about the

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Speaker 5: fincherm movie versus the book is that in the book

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Speaker 5: they all show that Amy was this kind of way

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Speaker 5: towards women, and like there's a theme there's a woman

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Speaker 5: in the book whose life she also destroyed, which I

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Speaker 5: thought was better because then she isn't just someone who's

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Speaker 5: like finding men to fix them. It's like, no, the

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Speaker 5: people around her in her little inner circle, she like

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Speaker 5: absorbs them and then like destroys them. And I felt

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Speaker 5: like that was a little bit more balanced. But I

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Speaker 5: think for the sake of the film, it was more

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Speaker 5: streamlined to be the more like Hitchcockian blonde, you know,

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Speaker 5: vamp sociopaths quote unquote character versus that other bit of it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not like I wish that the movie was

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Speaker 3: more of like I didn't like I didn't really want

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Speaker 3: to hear Nick's inner monologue, and the way the movie

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Speaker 3: is presented, I think that was a really smart choice

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Speaker 3: and like worked better for the format. But yeah, the

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Speaker 3: whole thing of the book, and then at this point

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Speaker 3: I don't specifically remember this, I had to like go

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Speaker 3: back and cross check that the book like more clearly

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Speaker 3: contextualizes Nick's own misogyny through the lens of his dad

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Speaker 3: and how his dad treated the women in Nick's life,

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Speaker 3: and like, and that's I think that you only get

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Speaker 3: like one reference to that. It's well placed, but it's

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Speaker 3: like Marco has like you're acting just like dad by right,

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Speaker 3: you know, like being a horrible husband. But that's sort

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Speaker 3: of all we get. But it is more contextualizing the book. Again,

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Speaker 3: I feel like in most adaptations, we're talking about a

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Speaker 3: screenwriter deciding what stays and goes in an author's work,

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Speaker 3: and we don't have that here. And so I was

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Speaker 3: I think it's interesting what she keeps in what she leaves,

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Speaker 3: and also is sort of relieved to read that David

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Speaker 3: Fincher kind of like deferred to her a great deal,

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Speaker 3: because you never know, you never know.

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Speaker 4: I also don't remember the book very well, having read

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Speaker 4: it about ten years ago, but either this was placed

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Speaker 4: more emphasis on in the book or this just stuck

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Speaker 4: with me, maybe a little bit of both, but I

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Speaker 4: remember there being discussion of like the concept of the

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Speaker 4: cool girl, like that really stuck out to me from.

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Speaker 2: The difference there.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if it's like now or later, but like,

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Speaker 3: I want to talk about what is in the book

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Speaker 3: that didn't make it to the movie, because I'm like,

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Speaker 3: why why Tay got this awesome whe.

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Speaker 4: Well, how about this we take a break, we come

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Speaker 4: back and do the recap, and then we start our

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Speaker 4: discussion with those like adaptation changes. Wow, we'll be right back.

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Speaker 2: And we're gone girl.

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Speaker 3: We were gone, we're girls. We're back, but now we're

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Speaker 3: here women. That should just become a facet of the

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Speaker 3: show that we never explained.

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Speaker 2: We're like and we're here women.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So here is the recap of Gone a Girl.

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Speaker 4: It is one of the longer recaps I've written. It

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Speaker 4: is a very complicated story and I left out a

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Speaker 4: bunch of stuff, but it's still quite long, so bear

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Speaker 4: with me. And then we'll all will place a content

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Speaker 4: warning at the top because.

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Speaker 2: The content warning for it everything.

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Speaker 5: There's a lot.

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Speaker 4: There will be discussion of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse,

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Speaker 4: as well as false accusations of those things. So that's

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Speaker 4: what we're working with.

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Speaker 3: Also, murder and murder of Neil Patrick Harris tragic.

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Speaker 4: And that's its own subgenre.

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Speaker 5: Okay.

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Speaker 4: So we open with ominous voiceover from Nick Dunn. That's

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Speaker 4: Ben Affleck's character, that suggests that he has like violent

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Speaker 4: thoughts towards his wife. Then we see him on the

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Speaker 4: morning of July fifth, Nick goes to a bar called

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Speaker 4: The Bar that.

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Speaker 3: So early twenty tens to do that kind of cutey

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Speaker 3: little wink wink, nod nod. Although I will say it

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Speaker 3: kind of looks like I don't know if we're supposed

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Speaker 3: to hate the bar.

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Speaker 2: But I'm like, hmmm, kind of looks like a fun dive.

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Speaker 5: I go, it's a place where I would go.

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Speaker 3: I would go to Carrie Kuhon's bar where you can

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Speaker 3: play the game of life with Carrie Coon.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm going, yes, absolutely so. He and his sister,

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Speaker 4: his twin sister Margo played by Carrie Kuhon, co own

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Speaker 4: the bar together and today is also the five year

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Speaker 4: anniversary of Nick and his wife Amy's marriage, and every

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Speaker 4: year for their anniversary, Amy comes up with a scavenger

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Speaker 4: hunt with riddles that he has to solve to get

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Speaker 4: his gift Amy.

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Speaker 2: Amy ex.

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Speaker 5: Her.

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Speaker 4: I know, God, that is a little exhausting. Also, like

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Speaker 4: there was one year I think it was like the

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Speaker 4: previous year that he never solved one of the clues.

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Speaker 4: So did he just not get a gift.

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Speaker 5: That year, which would be hilarious. My first note was that,

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Speaker 5: like when I talk about their second years, he was like,

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Speaker 5: she got me a beautiful notebook. I got her a kite,

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Speaker 5: and I was like, electric chair, I sent him under

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Speaker 5: the prison.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if someone got me a kite, I don't care

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Speaker 3: if it's a symbolic kite.

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Speaker 4: No, no, no, thank you.

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Speaker 2: Come back with a gift.

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Speaker 5: I'm planning, like, we will be planning your murder if

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Speaker 5: we receive a kite for any gift, for any occasion.

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Speaker 3: In general, the number one gift giving advice is do

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Speaker 3: not gift someone a metaphor gift them a gift.

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Speaker 4: Come on, ideally, just give me money anyway. Okay, So

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Speaker 4: we get this flashback that's accompanied by Amy reading a

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Speaker 4: diary entry. We will get many of these throughout the movie.

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Speaker 4: This flashback, we see Amy played by Rosamund Pike, and

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Speaker 4: Nick meet for the first time at a party in

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Speaker 4: two thousand and five, and they hit it off.

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Speaker 3: They have and her our bantering.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I was like, I felt so bad because I was

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Speaker 5: watching it. I was like, man, I would have got

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Speaker 5: caught because I was like, I was so it was

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Speaker 5: so smooth and corny. But I was like, damn they

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Speaker 5: tried into men. Is really a curse because I really

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Speaker 5: would have been like, wow, he is so cool, he's

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Speaker 5: so funny.

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Speaker 4: He's not like the other boys.

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Speaker 5: I was like, oh my god, he actually cares what

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Speaker 5: I think. We like, we hit up and the next

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Speaker 5: thing you know, he goes to me and then I'm like,

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Speaker 5: what happened?

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Speaker 3: And I feel like ben Affleck can really channel that

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Speaker 3: for a guy that doesn't Oh wait, no, we can't

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Speaker 3: go there.

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Speaker 2: Wait, Caitlyn, do.

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Speaker 3: You remember do you remember the Ben Affleck Rayah video

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Speaker 3: that we used to really be into, where he would.

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Speaker 2: Go, hey, it's me, oh for Riah's briefly obviously before

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Speaker 2: he reunited with the love of his life.

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Speaker 5: And I think this is.

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Speaker 3: Also pre Anna to Armis, who we also talked about

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Speaker 3: in a recent episode, because she was and she had

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Speaker 3: the cardboard cutout of herself in ben Affleck's yard.

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Speaker 2: He's really lived.

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Speaker 3: But he was on Riah for a bit or some

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Speaker 3: dating app and a woman he matched with was like,

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Speaker 3: I don't believe you're Ben Affleck, and he sent her

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Speaker 3: back this horrific front facing video where he said.

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Speaker 2: Like, Sophie, it's me.

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Speaker 3: You're just like whoa, I'm really on the Okay, continue,

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Speaker 3: I am going to drop that video in the chat.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So back in the present, Nick returns home to

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Speaker 4: discover that his home has been vandalized and that Amy

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Speaker 4: is missing. So two cops show up, Detective Bony, which

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Speaker 4: what a silly name?

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Speaker 2: What for a character?

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Speaker 3: Okay, I did, I did, just it's at the very beginning, guys.

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Speaker 4: Okay, yes, Detective Bonie and Officer Gilpin played by Patrick

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Speaker 4: Fugut aka the kid from Almost Famous. So they start

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Speaker 4: to Sam in the house and Detective Boney sees a

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Speaker 4: poster for something called Amazing Amy and she's like, wait

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Speaker 4: a minute, your wife is Amazing Amy. And then we

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Speaker 4: get a flashback where Amy's mom and dad made their

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Speaker 4: living by writing children's books about Amy, where they embellished

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Speaker 4: her life and made her seem more impressive than she

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Speaker 4: actually was.

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Speaker 3: They like passive aggressively attacked her to the tune of

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Speaker 3: millions of dollars.

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Speaker 2: Yea, yeah, it's like proto like you two family vloggers.

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Speaker 5: I was like, wow, really trailblazers in their field, but

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Speaker 5: traumatizing their child.

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Speaker 3: I liked thinking about how that would look with like

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Speaker 3: other iconic children's characters where they're like, wait, are you

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Speaker 3: married to Amelia Bedelia? And Ben Affleck's like, yeah, you

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Speaker 3: can say that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm married to my wife, Madeline. She grew up

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Speaker 2: in Friends.

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Speaker 4: Yea wife, Hippi Longstocking. Okay, so her parents got very

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Speaker 4: rich off these books, and now Amy has a trust fund.

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Speaker 4: And then also the night where we get this flashback,

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Speaker 4: there's this I think book release party and Nick proposes

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Speaker 4: to Amy. Then we cut back to the present. Nick

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Speaker 4: is at the police station. The cops are already treating

404
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Speaker 4: this as a missing person's case, so they ask him

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Speaker 4: some questions. They learn that she doesn't have any friends,

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Speaker 4: that she doesn't have a job or have anything to

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Speaker 4: do all day, and so the cops are starting to

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Speaker 4: get suspicious. That night, Nick goes home to his sister

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Speaker 4: Margo's place because forensics is like collecting evidence at his house,

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Speaker 4: so he's staying there for a little while. We get

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Speaker 4: another flashback where Nick and Amy are two years into

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Speaker 4: their marriage and it's still perfect and amazing and they

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Speaker 4: never fight or have any problems.

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Speaker 3: That's the scariest That's one of the scariest ideas that

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Speaker 3: the movie posits that a relationship could be.

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Speaker 2: Like so great for two years, yeah.

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Speaker 4: And they're still horny for each other still, that they're

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Speaker 4: like having sex in the middle of a bookstore offensive.

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Speaker 3: I was off, like, She's like, don't you know who

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Speaker 3: I am? I'm Amelia Badelia. I get to fucking the store.

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Speaker 5: Now I keep thinking about this is my husband?

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Speaker 3: Do you know?

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Speaker 5: Little critter? Big critter? Now adult critter?

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Speaker 4: Okay. So then there's a press conference where Nick and

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Speaker 4: Amy's parents, who have arrived, address just like kind of

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Speaker 4: various things about this case. And then Amy's parents tell

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Speaker 4: the police about various stalkers that she has had over

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Speaker 4: the years wonder why, including a guy named Desi Collings. Also,

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Speaker 4: forensics finds an envelope at Nick and Amy's house labeled

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Speaker 4: Clue one, and it's one of the clues that Amy

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Speaker 4: left for Nick for her anniversary scavenger hunt, and Detective

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Speaker 4: Bony tells Nick that if he can solve these clues,

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Speaker 4: it'll help her track Amy's recent movements and it might

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Speaker 4: provide some clarity on the case. So he finds the

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00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 4: next clue in his office where he teaches at a

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Speaker 4: community college. There's also a pair of red panties that

437
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Speaker 4: get discovered there and we're like, hm, whose are these?

438
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,719
Speaker 4: And then that leads him to the third clue. I mean,

439
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 4: and now we're getting into national treasure territory where it's

440
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 4: like this clue leads to another clue, and it leads

441
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 4: to another clue.

442
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 3: Would it make this story better or worse if Amy

443
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 3: left a clue that was contingent on daylight savings times?

444
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 5: I will never know. Yeah.

445
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it makes you wonder if this case maybe

446
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 4: would have been solved faster if they could have just

447
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 4: stolen the Declaration of Independence.

448
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 3: Truly, I do believe that she is calculating enough to

449
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 3: successfully kidnap the precedent. Yes, this is a case of

450
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 3: like Amy has incredible skills and we just need to

451
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 3: like give.

452
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 5: Her a better place for them. Yeah, exactly, put her

453
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 5: in the White House. I mean, just the patience she has.

454
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 5: It's like, honestly, if I've lead anything from being a

455
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 5: true crime voyeur, it's that if you don't have patients,

456
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 5: don't even try to attempt like a long crime, because

457
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 5: you'll get exhausted. That's why I just read, Yeah, she

458
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 5: reads a whole diary, basically three hundred entries of make

459
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 5: Believe Girl.

460
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 3: It's why, Like, and then I cross checked in the

461
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 3: book she's doing it even longer. It's like over a

462
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 3: year of planning that goes into they just.

463
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 4: Get a divorce that I honestly think that's what kind

464
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 4: of rubbed me the wrong way about this story, Like

465
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 4: the lengths that she goes to to like ruin his

466
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 4: life and frame him for murder. I'm like, just like

467
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 4: use your words, just say hey, I want a divorce

468
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 4: by I have a.

469
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 3: Theory about well not a theory, but like I feel

470
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 3: Amy has this like real fixation on controlling a narrative

471
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,199
Speaker 3: because her life was defined by a narrative about her

472
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 3: that was untrue and that she had no control over. Yeah,

473
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 3: that she like will do anything to control a narrative.

474
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,959
Speaker 4: That makes sense in any case. Uh, Nick not really fit,

475
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 4: discovers the third clue at his father's house, but he

476
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 4: doesn't tell Detective Bony about this third clue. We get

477
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 4: another flashback. Some time has passed and Nick and Amy's

478
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 4: perfect quote unquot marriage isn't quite so perfect anymore because

479
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:08,239
Speaker 4: the recession of like eighth nine has hit and they

480
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 4: both lose their jobs. Amy's parents borrow most of the

481
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 4: money out of her trust fund, so their financial situation

482
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 4: is very unstable. They're arguing it becomes a gamer, right.

483
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 5: Truly set again. I was like, I get it, Like

484
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 5: it's like, like sick, She's really right this diary for

485
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:28,360
Speaker 5: the girls.

486
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 3: Like yeah, she's really pushing every and like yeah she's

487
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 3: she's pushing a lot of buttons where he's like, what

488
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 3: do you mean I'm a gamer?

489
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 5: Because you don't trust me?

490
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 4: No, no, we don't. So back to the present, Amy's

491
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 4: parents have set up this like find Amy headquarters and

492
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 4: this find Amy hotline and Nick shows up and he's

493
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 4: kind of like schmoozing with people, and everyone's starting to

494
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 4: feel like Nick doesn't seem upset enough that his wife

495
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 4: is miss his wife is missing, so he's like seeming

496
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 4: more and more suspicious. Then we get another flashback, another

497
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 4: diary entry from Amy describing how they moved to Missouri,

498
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 4: where Nick is from, to take care of his sick mother,

499
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 4: but Amy feels that Nick is not thrilled that she

500
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 4: is there with him. Back in the present, we get

501
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 4: a big reveal that Nick has been having an affair

502
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,360
Speaker 4: with a young woman named Andy played by Emily Radikowski.

503
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 4: So the plot thickens. Oh and you thought that was thick, Well,

504
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 4: wait for this another flashback slash diary entry where Nick

505
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,959
Speaker 4: and Amy get into an argument and he pushes her,

506
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 4: so she is now terrified of him, and she tries

507
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 4: to procure a gun for protection. So we're like, oh

508
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 4: my god, Nick is violent, he's scary. He did kill her.

509
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 5: I gotta say, being married to a woman named Amy

510
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 5: and then having an affair with a near teenager named

511
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 5: Andy is also a red flag. I was like, that's

512
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 5: very You're not that smart. You're gonna slip up. It's

513
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 5: gonna be bad. You gotta go a different, totally different

514
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 5: first name.

515
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 3: Like it's just like interesting that Nick seems so devastated

516
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 3: by the loss of his job, but like doesn't really

517
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 3: try to write again. Meanwhile, Amy's written one of the

518
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 3: greatest novels of all time. It's called Gone Girl. Yeah,

519
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 3: she certainly is keeping her skills sharp. But Nick, yeah,

520
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 3: Nick kind of for all of what is awful about him.

521
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 3: He's going through a lot. He lost his mama and

522
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 3: I mean all this stuff. But I was just like Nick,

523
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 3: instead of having a teenage girlfriend, like right, do your

524
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 3: morning pages king, Like, come.

525
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 5: On, the artist waster No, And it's so funny. The

526
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 5: entire time I was watching the film, I was trying

527
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 5: to tell myself because we know that the this is

528
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 5: an unreliable narration, but it feels so close to like

529
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 5: Nick's own douchary that it's like, well, how much of

530
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 5: this is really what was kind of happening? Because the

531
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 5: affair is real, the distance is real. And I think

532
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 5: that one of the things that's interesting is that Nick

533
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 5: never does enough to make me not think that he

534
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 5: wouldn't push her, you know, like it's like he never

535
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 5: does enough in his own you know, space to make

536
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 5: me think that. So it is interesting how we're being

537
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 5: coaxed to still believe at the end that he is

538
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 5: capable of being violent in mind because we see him

539
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 5: shows her at the very end of the movie. Yeah,

540
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 5: so I'm like, well, if you weren't before, you are now.

541
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 3: You are right, And it's like they're both. I think

542
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 3: it's amazing that, like Gilliam Flynn manages to get this

543
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 3: across even though you don't get the internal monologue of

544
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 3: Nick where it's like they're I mean, obviously Amy is

545
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 3: like like a generational, unreliable narrator, but Nick also like

546
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 3: you see him constantly distant himself from his own actions

547
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 3: and constantly justify his own bullshit. Yeah, to the point

548
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 3: where you're like, I have no idea, who is right here?

549
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 3: She really is amazing.

550
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 4: She's amazing Amy, Jamie.

551
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 2: Amazing James.

552
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 3: I kind of want to get an amazing Amy poster

553
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 3: for my house cut for the girls.

554
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 5: All right.

555
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 4: So, now it has been three days since Amy went

556
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 4: missing and Margo finds out about Nick's affair with Andy.

557
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 4: She's furious. We see throughout the movie, you know, Nick

558
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 4: is confiding in her and like consulting her, and she's

559
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 4: kind of helping him through this, but he had been

560
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 4: lying to her about this affair. So she discovers it

561
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 4: and now she's furious and she doesn't really know what

562
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 4: to believe anymore. And then that night there is a

563
00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 4: vigil for Amy and Nick gives a speech, which is

564
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 4: interrupted by a neighbor woman named Noel, who had claimed

565
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 4: to the police to be Amy's best friend.

566
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 2: And also the twist, it's Casey Wilson.

567
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 4: Yes, you're like, whoa, And so she's yelling saying, what

568
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 4: did you do to your pregnant wife, or rather your

569
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 4: gregnant wife. It's true she she fakes a greg and everything. Yeah,

570
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 4: So the cops are like, okay, Nick, the evidence is

571
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 4: stacking up against you, because they had also found a

572
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,479
Speaker 4: ton of blood that had been cleaned up in the kitchen.

573
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 4: The vandalism from this like alleged home invasion seemed fake.

574
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 4: Nick is in a ton of debt, and it seems

575
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 4: like he has made all these like big ticket purchases

576
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 4: that he denies. He had also recently bumped up Amy's

577
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 4: life insurance to one point two million dollars amateur seriously.

578
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 4: And on top of that, the medical reports have just

579
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 4: come back confirming that Amy was indeed with greg So

580
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 4: it now really seems like Nick murdered his gregnant wife. Meanwhile,

581
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 4: Detective Bony goes to Nick's dad's house in search of

582
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 4: Amy's body, because she's like, I can't really make a

583
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 4: murder case without a body. I gotta find this body.

584
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 4: What she finds instead is Amy's diary a body of work.

585
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, it's been partially burned, but it's mostly

586
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 4: still intact. And so she discovers, you know, all of

587
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 4: this writing from Amy saying I'm scared of my husband.

588
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 4: At the same time, Nick solves the third clue that

589
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 4: Amy left behind and he comes upon a wrapped gift box.

590
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 4: It's also like in the wood shed where she had

591
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,919
Speaker 4: stored all of those like big item purchases that Nick

592
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 4: had allegedly made, and so we're like, what's going on here?

593
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 4: And then smash cut to Amy on the morning of

594
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 4: July fifth. She is alive and well, she's driving away.

595
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 4: Her voiceover is explaining how she faked her own disappearance

596
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 4: slash death because she wants her lying, cheating husband to

597
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 4: go to prison for murder. And we're like, wow, twist alert.

598
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 5: Legends only.

599
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 2: I like a car It's like a Carrie Underwood song. Dude,

600
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 2: It's just like yeah.

601
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 5: And I told my fiend too. I was like, yeah,

602
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 5: do it.

603
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, It's it's a great David Fincher assignment because he

604
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 3: will show you every single detail, whether you like it

605
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 3: or not. Because I feel like it's very easy to

606
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: be like, how is she even or organizing this?

607
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 2: There's so many X factors.

608
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 3: And then you see her scary calendar with the color

609
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 3: coded post its and you're like Amy, Yeah, yeah, I

610
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 3: mean so unfortunately, you gotta love Amy.

611
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, we love we love a villain

612
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 5: dotagonist and like it's so funny. Well, then the post

613
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 5: is where she's like, kill self question mark.

614
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 2: I was like, she has a bunch of them on

615
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 2: a bunch of different dates. Which month will it be?

616
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 2: I was just like, you're so amazing.

617
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 5: It's like.

618
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 3: Wrong, Yeah, it's true what they say about Amy, She's amazing.

619
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 2: Oh God, she's a planner and I respect that.

620
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 5: I love them.

621
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 4: You're great, Yeah, such a planner.

622
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 3: I just found it so satisfied when she like rips

623
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 3: the last kill self question mark posted off the calendar,

624
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 3: I'm like, ah, it's so great, so good.

625
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 5: Okay.

626
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 4: So we get a series of flashbacks showing how she

627
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 4: did this, how she accomplished this, like framing where she

628
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,399
Speaker 4: befriended Noel, that neighbor woman, so that she could tell

629
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 4: her stories about her husband's violent temper. She also stole

630
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 4: her pregnant pee so that she could fake her own pregnancy.

631
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 4: She also purposely racked up credit card debt. She put

632
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 4: her own blood on the floor and then cleaned it

633
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 4: up and did it very poorly on purpose, and wrote

634
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 4: this diary where part of it is true, like the

635
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 4: early stories about them, like getting together and falling in

636
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 4: love are true, But then she just started making things

637
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:48,839
Speaker 4: up about his violent tendencies and things like that. Then

638
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 4: she's says something like Nick fell in love with a

639
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 4: version of me that I was pretending to be. I

640
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 4: was pretending to be cool girl. I was not like

641
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 4: the other girl's girl. And that's something I want to

642
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 4: talk about more because I wish we had gotten more

643
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 4: of that in the movie and we don't really but.

644
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 3: Anyway, God, yeah, and then we'll have an adaptation to

645
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 3: talk about that too, because there's just I mean, it

646
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 3: doesn't change the story meaningfully, but they just she cut

647
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 3: out a lot of her own, like banger lines.

648
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 4: Anyways.

649
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 5: Yeah.

650
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 4: So then Amy changes her appearance. She dyes her hair,

651
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 4: she puts on glasses, she gives herself a black eye,

652
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 4: and then she rents a little house somewhere in this

653
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 4: like kind of small housing community place. She meets her neighbor, Greta. Meanwhile,

654
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 4: we cut back to Nick. He opens the anniversary gift

655
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 4: and letter that Amy left him, where she implies that

656
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 4: she's framing him for murder, but it's also like vague

657
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 4: and cryptic enough that the cops would never like interpret

658
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 4: the letter as evidence for that. So then he goes

659
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 4: to defense attorney Tyler Perry.

660
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 3: Legend, what was the last time we had a Tyler

661
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 3: Perry dramatic jump scare. I feel like it wasn't too

662
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 3: long ago.

663
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 4: I know, we talked about this recently. What was the movie?

664
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 2: It's the year of the Tyler Perry drama roll. I

665
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 2: don't know. I know he's in Vice. What was the movie?

666
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 5: The first? But my first Tyler Perry jump scare was

667
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 5: Star Trek, like the yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, I was right.

668
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 5: I was sorry because I was like that was I

669
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 5: was like, what are you doing here? Like, you're not

670
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 5: in a dress, You're.

671
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: You're not the director of this movie. Why are you here?

672
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's gone girl. And then what else does he

673
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 3: I mean, it happens like once every five years, just

674
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 3: to keep you on your toes.

675
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's like, I'm not always medea. Yeah, sometimes I'm

676
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 4: in Star Trek.

677
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 5: When he rescued Megan and Harry from the British that

678
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 5: was also one of his dramas, I know.

679
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 3: And then you're just like, well, it's a shame that

680
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 3: his labor practices are so abysmal, because I like being

681
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 3: jump scared. I remember when he played Colon Powell and

682
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 3: you're like, huh, oh my god, you know, this is

683
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,399
Speaker 3: my favorite Tyler Perry dramatic role jump scare by doing

684
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 3: a good job. Yeah, everyone in this movie is doing

685
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 3: a great job.

686
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 4: Yeah. So Tyler Perry's character's name is Tanner Bolt and

687
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 4: he agrees to defend Nick, and Tanner tells Nick to

688
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 4: find this guy named Tommy O'Hara, who Amy had pressed

689
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 4: charges against eight years ago. So Nick talks to Tommy O'Hara,

690
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 4: who says that Amy had framed him for rape. Nick

691
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 4: then also pays a visit to Dosy Collings played by

692
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,479
Speaker 4: Neil Patrick Harris, and according to Amy, they had dated

693
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 4: in high school, she broke up with him, he harassed

694
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 4: and stalked her, and then attempted suicide. But when Nick

695
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 4: talks to Desi about that, Desi denies it and shuts

696
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 4: the door in Neix's face. He was doing the Rose

697
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 4: from Titanic line where he's.

698
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:16,760
Speaker 3: Just like, you're being very rude.

699
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 2: You shouldn't be asking me this, and he slams the door.

700
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 4: Bye.

701
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 2: Wow, he doesn't deserve it, but you're right.

702
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 4: Then Nick and his sister Margo get to work with

703
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 4: Tanner to figure out Amy's game plan and how to

704
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 4: unravel it and how to get people to like and

705
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 4: sympathize and empathize with Nick. Meanwhile, Amy is still staying

706
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,240
Speaker 4: in this little housing complex somewhere in the Ozarks. She's

707
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 4: pretending to be a woman named Nancy from New Orleans,

708
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 4: and she's becoming friends with her neighbor Greta and this

709
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 4: other guy, except that they see her drop a bundle

710
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,399
Speaker 4: of money, so they become suspicious and then they gang

711
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 4: up on her and steal her cash. So now she's

712
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 4: like completely fucked and desperate. So Amy arranges to meet

713
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 4: up with Desi Collings. She tells him a whole story

714
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 4: about how Nick threatened to kill her if she left

715
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 4: she lost the baby, and so he sets her up

716
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 4: in his secluded lake house. It's well stocked and very luxurious,

717
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 4: but he seems very controlling, and it seems like he

718
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 4: kind of intends to kind of trap her there and

719
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 4: keep her there.

720
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 3: Right and again it's like it calls I don't know,

721
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 3: like what this movie does so many times. So well

722
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 3: is like Amy is lying to an extent, but by

723
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 3: how much because based on the behavior we see him display,

724
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 3: like it seems like, you know, hit, his whole thing

725
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 3: is my protection of you is contingent on my.

726
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, yeah, So basically everyone in this movie is

727
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 4: an awful person. Yeah, okay. So back in Missouri, Tanner

728
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 4: Bolt is encouraging Nick to go public with the fact

729
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 4: that he was having an affair with Andy and acknowledge

730
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 4: that he was a cheating jerk, so that they can

731
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 4: get ahead of the story before Andy goes to the

732
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 4: cops or the press.

733
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 3: Because Tyler Perry knows what Emily Radakowski's gonna do. He's

734
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 3: got her number.

735
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 5: Dramatic timing.

736
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, so they're trying to get ahead of the story,

737
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 4: but it's too late because right as Nick is about

738
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 4: to appear on this kind of like Dateline twenty twenty

739
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 4: type of show with a journalist named Sharon, Andy goes

740
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:44,760
Speaker 4: public with the affair. But nonetheless, Nick gives an amazing

741
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 4: interview with Sharon and it seems like he's going to

742
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 4: be redeemed and it works. People see the interview and

743
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 4: they're like, Wow, that was so raw and honest, and like,

744
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 4: maybe he's not such a bad guy after all. But

745
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 4: then the police find what they think is the murder

746
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 4: weapon with Amy's blood on it, which she obviously planted

747
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 4: there to make him seem guilty, and so he's arrested. Meanwhile,

748
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 4: Amy is still at Desi Collings is feeling trapped, so

749
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 4: she stages a scene to make it look like he

750
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 4: raped her, and that night she coerces him into sex

751
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 4: and then slits his throat and kills him. Then Tanner

752
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 4: bails Nick out of jail. Some time passes as they

753
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,280
Speaker 4: await trial, until one day, about a month later, Amy

754
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 4: shows up at their house. She's all covered in blood,

755
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 4: presumably right after she killed Desi. She tells the police

756
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 4: about how Desi kidnapped her, trapped her at his lake house,

757
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 4: raped her repeatedly, but she was finally able to kill

758
00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 4: him and get away and return home. And so now

759
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 4: Nick and Amy are like back at their house and

760
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 4: Nick is like, you're a liar and a scary person

761
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 4: and I'm leaving you. And Amy is like, well, you

762
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 4: can't do that. That's not gonna look good. Yeah, And

763
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 4: then they do these various TV interviews and things where

764
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 4: they're both pretending to be in love in public and

765
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 4: then in their private lives. The dynamic is so weird

766
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 4: and just bizarre. And then one day she's like, by

767
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:40,720
Speaker 4: the way, I actually am pregnant. Now I'm pregnant now sorry,

768
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 4: and then Nick realizes he's even more stuck there, and

769
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 4: he feels like he has no choice but to stay

770
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 4: and raise the baby with her, even though she's a lying, manipulative,

771
00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 4: so seopath the end, and that's.

772
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 2: What we call marriage.

773
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 4: There's a line where he's like, why are we trying

774
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 4: to make this work? We just resent each other and

775
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 4: try to control each other, and she's like, well, that's

776
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 4: just marriage, baby, and it's like, yikes.

777
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 3: That's very, very scary. And I also just like I

778
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 3: don't know. I was like, what is Gillian Flynn's writing process?

779
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 3: And she's like, I work in a basement. I was

780
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 3: like that tracks, that tracks. It feels like you wrote.

781
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 2: This in a basement. Good for you.

782
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's take another quick break and then we'll come

783
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 4: back to discuss. And we're back.

784
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 3: Boy, oh boy, gone girl, Oh gone girl, And.

785
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 4: Again we are we are not gone girls anymore. We

786
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 4: are back.

787
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 3: We're back women, We're back friends were shooting start. Can

788
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 3: I just share the lines from the cool girl dialogue

789
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 3: that didn't.

790
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 2: Make it in the fun?

791
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 3: Yeah?

792
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I can't. Okay, I have it pulled up.

793
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 3: Okay, there's first of all, uh it's a little heavy

794
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 3: on the hot dog slander for years, truly whoa. But

795
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 3: I found that the hot dog slander was removed for

796
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,879
Speaker 3: the film, So I have to imagine that Gillian learned

797
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 3: from her mistake, got a lot of feedback from the

798
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 3: hot dog girl lobby, and was like, I admit I

799
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 3: was wrong to say that, let's keep hot dogs out

800
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 3: of it. So things that are added. So this is

801
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 3: an extension of what's there. Being the cool girl means

802
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 3: I am a hot, brilliant, funny woman who adores football, poker,

803
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 3: dirty jokes and burping, who plays video games, drinks cheap bear,

804
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 3: loves threesomes and anal sex and jam's hot dogs and

805
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,280
Speaker 3: hamburgers into her mouth like she's hosting the world's biggest

806
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 3: culinary gang bang, while somehow maintaining a size too, because

807
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 3: cool girls are above all hot. Okay, here's another one.

808
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 3: You are not dating a woman. You were dating a

809
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 3: woman who has watched too many movies written by social

810
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 3: awkward men who'd like to believe that this kind of

811
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 3: woman exists and might kiss them. I think this line

812
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 3: is awesome and belongs in the movie, But I mean

813
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 3: the meeting comes through and then it ends there are

814
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 3: variations to the window dressing, but believe me, he wants

815
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 3: cool Girl, who is basically the girl who likes every

816
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 3: fucking thing he likes and doesn't ever complain. How do

817
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 3: you know you're not cool girl? Because he says things

818
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 3: like I like strong women. If he says that to you,

819
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 3: he will at some point flock someone else because I

820
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 3: like strong women as code for I hate strong women.

821
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 5: Bars.

822
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 2: So there's there's a lot going on in this.

823
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 3: I mean, and this this has been you know, analyzed

824
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,359
Speaker 3: and talked about and quoted at nauseum for well over

825
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 3: ten years. Now, what I feel like is changed, and

826
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 3: I saw like some criticism or just like commentary.

827
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 2: I guess to this. To this effect is that in

828
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 2: the movie.

829
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 3: It mainly and I think princess it speaks to your

830
00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 3: point of like how Amy mistreated and manipulated woman is

831
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 3: taken out. Most of the stuff that stays in is

832
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 3: what's critical of men. What is kind of taken out

833
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 3: is Amy's internal criticism of women, because the full cool

834
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 3: girl speech in the book seems to be coming down

835
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,280
Speaker 3: pretty hard on women who quote unquote cater to this fantasy,

836
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 3: just as hard to the men.

837
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 2: That kind of slurp it up. Yeah, they're both misogynists.

838
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 5: And I think, you know, I think one of the

839
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 5: hardest things about like discourse about books nowadays is that,

840
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 5: like there's this assumption that the narrator is supposed to

841
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 5: always be the voice of reason, which I don't know

842
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 5: where that has come from, because it is as a

843
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 5: creative of the Lilita podcast, you are aware that like

844
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 5: that is just not how fiction works often. And I

845
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 5: think that the thing about Gone Girl is that it

846
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 5: became so ubiquitous that the very worst kind of people

847
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 5: absorbed it and use it to play into their own

848
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 5: sexist narratives while ignoring that like the book is critical

849
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 5: of sexism in its own ways. Especially, I think that

850
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 5: what's difficult about Gone Girl is that there are women

851
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 5: who really connect with Amy because of the valid things

852
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 5: that she deals with in her relationship with Nick. And

853
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 5: I think because women enjoy Amy, there became this desire

854
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 5: to be like, but do you understand that she's a

855
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 5: bad person. It's like, yes, we do understand that she's

856
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:33,720
Speaker 5: a bad person. We're not having a fight club situation

857
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,240
Speaker 5: where we don't understand the text. It is just sometimes

858
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:40,760
Speaker 5: nice to see an examination of that with a character

859
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 5: who is bad enough to be like, okay, he did

860
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:46,919
Speaker 5: a and I want to destroy his life and I'm like, yeah,

861
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 5: that's not a reasonable reaction. But it was nice to watch.

862
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 3: And there's a lot of valid criticism of this movie

863
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 3: as well. But I feel like it's like a lot

864
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 3: of the stuff I was sing was like, why do

865
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 3: women connect with it? You're like, it's just like cathartic,

866
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 3: and like it's cathartic to see someone who is completely

867
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 3: like I don't know, And I think to some extent

868
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 3: acting out of her own privilege, because the character that

869
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 3: Amy writes for herself is not judgmental. She writes herself

870
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:24,879
Speaker 3: as the cool girl, but you know, when we see

871
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,280
Speaker 3: how she reacts in actual situations that we are certain

872
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 3: are happening, she is judgmental of Missouri in general, even

873
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 3: though she writes like, I'm a Missourian and I'm totally

874
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 3: okay with that. I just wish he had asked me.

875
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 3: That part feels true. What doesn't feel true is like

876
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 3: she clearly hates being in Missouri. When we hear her

877
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 3: talk about the Casey Wilson character, she thinks everyone there

878
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 3: is like not as good.

879
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 2: As her and not as smart as her. So it's

880
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 2: like this dual reality of like Nick is a.

881
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 3: Terrible husband who is making who like expects her to

882
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 3: move there because he needs to move there. It's not

883
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 3: a discussion. And then when they get there, he makes

884
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 3: no effort to include her or make her feel like

885
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:09,320
Speaker 3: she belongs there. And then on the other hand, it

886
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 3: seems like Amy genuinely doesn't like or respect anyone who

887
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 3: lives there.

888
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 5: Or his own family because he's not close to Go.

889
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 5: And I feel like, if there's any character who you

890
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:25,439
Speaker 5: trust is probably Margo Go, because she's the one who's

891
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 5: like when she sees Emma rad Cassie, she's like, what

892
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 5: are you doing? You eat? Like everything that. I love

893
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 5: how much she shades about that relationship at every regard

894
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 5: because it's like it's so not okay, and I love

895
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 5: that the text points it out all the time. But

896
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 5: like she's not even close to Amy, like she has

897
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:45,400
Speaker 5: no roots in that community except these artificial ones. And

898
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 5: I think to your point, the moment that I always

899
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 5: think is when she's talking to Gretta about how when

900
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 5: she saw Nick with Andy for the first time and

901
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 5: how he does the lip thing on both of them,

902
00:51:57,840 --> 00:51:59,879
Speaker 5: and Greta's like, that's the most discussing thing I've ever heard,

903
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 5: and I'm like yeah, I was like yeah, because everyone

904
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 5: has a story of like that realization of like not

905
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 5: only being cheated on, but like having him do the

906
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 5: exact same thing with another person. And I think that

907
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 5: those very like n universal gut punches of like betrayal

908
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 5: and expectation of like gender performance are just so there

909
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,720
Speaker 5: and clear that I feel like a lot of people

910
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 5: connect with it. And I think the other thing that

911
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 5: I think has been made clearer more recently as we've

912
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 5: seen just like true crime really pop off, is that

913
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 5: there are a lot of women who think these things,

914
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 5: and like it's not because of Gone Girl. It is

915
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 5: like a part of the way in which misogyny it

916
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 5: becomes internalized and gets turned on each other because that's

917
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 5: what it wants to happen. Because it's like, she hates Nick,

918
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 5: but the way she talks about Andy is like so dehumanizing.

919
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 5: She's like she's just like a men and night when

920
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 5: she's got the huge cam on me tits, and I'm

921
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 5: just like okay, okay, okay. She hates women right like

922
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 5: you hate women? We get a girl, you're the coolest

923
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:09,240
Speaker 5: girl in the world.

924
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 3: She hates and it's wild that I don't know like

925
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 3: she It's why she's so frustrating, and I always just

926
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 3: get I don't know, I get annoyed that a lot

927
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 3: of the criticism around this seem to assume that, like

928
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:23,879
Speaker 3: the women who are enjoying this story can't cut through

929
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 3: that and understand that, Like, particularly in the book, it's

930
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 3: obvious that she doesn't like women.

931
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:32,919
Speaker 2: Or poor people like she does not she gets.

932
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 3: I mean, it's she's in a bed situation obviously when

933
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 3: she is robbed, because she's, you know, carrying around a

934
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:42,440
Speaker 3: stack of one hundred dollars bills.

935
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 2: With her baddye job.

936
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:45,840
Speaker 5: I read it.

937
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,799
Speaker 2: But like you know, Amy set herself up for that one.

938
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 3: The plot point itself, like does it look great that

939
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 3: we have like very few poor people who appear in

940
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 3: the story and then two of the only poor people

941
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 3: we meet aggressively her. That plot point kind of sat

942
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 3: a little flat with me, and it felt like that

943
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:10,399
Speaker 3: was an under examined point. But I feel like Amy.

944
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:12,919
Speaker 3: Part of why Amy is upset is like her money

945
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 3: has gone. And also I think that like she does

946
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 3: think she's better than people, and she's like, I can't

947
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 3: believe I got outsmarted by poor people. Yeah, Like there's

948
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 3: an element to that, and.

949
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 2: I think to build off of that.

950
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 5: The reason why I enjoyed that moment, and I think

951
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 5: it's I think it's more present in the film than

952
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:32,399
Speaker 5: the book, is how Greta is able to realize the manipulation.

953
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 5: And I think the thing that's really interesting is like

954
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,240
Speaker 5: you have like the class element and the racial element

955
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 5: with Amy because she's like this new elite white woman

956
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 5: who as soon as she's kidnapp it's instantly like we

957
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 5: have to find her, which is like, you know, everything's

958
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 5: being a reality around and she's so used to everyone

959
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 5: believing her and trusting her and just taking her word

960
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 5: for it. And when she meets the first person who's

961
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 5: actually been a victim of domestic violence because from like

962
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 5: an actual work and environment, that character is able to

963
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:03,879
Speaker 5: clock her instantly is like, oh, you're not from here.

964
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 5: Your accent doesn't work, like you know, you don't respond

965
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 5: to the name, Like for the first time, no one's

966
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 5: buying her a bullshit because she's with someone who doesn't

967
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 5: care about all the class and gender signifiers. That she

968
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,319
Speaker 5: usually uses to get away with things. And I think

969
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 5: one of the issues with Gone Girl that people talk

970
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:24,239
Speaker 5: about is like the false rape allegations, which is very

971
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 5: true to bring up because it is rare, less than

972
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 5: one percent, and that's really important. And I also think

973
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 5: it's important to recognize that like white women have had

974
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 5: notorious cases of not lying about rape, but lying about murder.

975
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:42,319
Speaker 5: You know. I think of in like nineteen eighty three,

976
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 5: there's a woman named Diane Downs who lied about a

977
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 5: stranger shooting her three children and it was really her.

978
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 5: There's Susan Smith, the infamous woman who lied about her

979
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 5: kids being kidnapped by a black man, but it was

980
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:58,439
Speaker 5: really her who killed her children. You have the most

981
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:01,479
Speaker 5: recent like the Sherry Papani kidnapping hopes for this woman

982
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 5: lying about being kidnapped by some Latino people. So I

983
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 5: think one of the most the things about Gone Girl

984
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 5: that is interesting is that it does call out the

985
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 5: white privilege of women who think they can manipulate the

986
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 5: system using their whiteness to do so.

987
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 2: And I think that is very.

988
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 5: Key to that conversation now that we can't also critique

989
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 5: the use of sexual violence and how she manipulates that.

990
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 5: But I think she's able to do that because people

991
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:34,800
Speaker 5: will believe her because she is a rich white woman.

992
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:36,880
Speaker 5: And it's not that she's lying about it out of

993
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 5: a gender thing. It's part of her own narcissism of

994
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:41,360
Speaker 5: knowing that, oh, I can get away with it, and

995
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 5: that's what's more important.

996
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:49,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, she weaponizes her white womanness, knowing that there's so

997
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 4: much you know, media frenzy around oh when a white woman,

998
00:56:54,200 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 4: especially one who is wealthy and classically beautiful, is missing murdered,

999
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:04,799
Speaker 4: the response of the police when a wealthy, beautiful white

1000
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:08,919
Speaker 4: woman goes missing or murdered is far more like, yes,

1001
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 4: we must solve this case, versus any time a black

1002
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 4: or indigenous woman, for example, is missing or murdered, you know.

1003
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 4: And so she's like kind of weaponizing that and taking

1004
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 4: full advantage of it, knowing that she can probably get

1005
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 4: away with it if she plays her cards right. And

1006
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 4: I thought the movies not that the movie like necessarily

1007
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 4: explicitly examining that, but it's definitely a component of.

1008
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 3: The story, right, I mean, and Princess, I feel like

1009
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 3: you have I want to link to your true crime

1010
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 3: video in the description because it's like one of the

1011
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 3: clearest breakdowns.

1012
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 2: Of this unless you don't want us to. It's just

1013
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 2: like that's so sweet of me to say, but like, yeah,

1014
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 2: it is really good.

1015
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 3: It's really good, and it's I revisit it every couple

1016
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 3: months since it came out because it covered it's so

1017
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 3: comprehensive and it addresses all of these like really really

1018
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 3: messy intersections that I think that this, you know, and

1019
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 3: it's imperfect because it's one person trying to do it,

1020
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 3: but I think that, yeah, it's a slippery slope to

1021
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 3: set up a character who is bold enough to lie

1022
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:27,280
Speaker 3: about rape and assault and murder. It's like you're setting

1023
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:30,480
Speaker 3: yourself up to go through a thousand rounds of discourse

1024
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 3: if anyone ever reads your work. And I feel like

1025
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:36,040
Speaker 3: that was something that was a huge point of contention

1026
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 3: when this movie first came out. That makes total sense,

1027
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 3: and most writers seem to sort of fall where we're

1028
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 3: talking right now of like, well, women across the board

1029
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 3: are often sexually abused and mistreated, but Amy is the

1030
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 3: person who is well placed to get away with something

1031
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:59,800
Speaker 3: like this. They're like, without her whiteness and privilege, this

1032
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 3: falls apart.

1033
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 5: It doesn't work, And like Amy for all of My

1034
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 5: girl Boss and I you know, hashtag relatable queen. You

1035
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 5: know she's an abuser. She's an abusive person like this

1036
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 5: isn't someone who is just like plucked from an environment.

1037
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 5: She is a narcissistic abuser who in the same way

1038
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 5: that like you know, Tyler Dirdon, or like any other

1039
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 5: male villain that we in pulp culture enjoy despite knowing

1040
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 5: that they're a villain, she occupies that same space. But

1041
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 5: because she is a woman and the subject matter of

1042
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 5: the work, and especially I think because the writer of

1043
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 5: the books is a woman, I think if the right

1044
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 5: of the book was a man, we'd have a totally

1045
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 5: different totalation. Because Flynn calls herself a feminist, she and

1046
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 5: I think she knows and she understands the discourse that

1047
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 5: is around her work. But I think also as a writer,

1048
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 5: it's a thing of like, well, I also want to

1049
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 5: write villainous women and what that would look like. And

1050
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 5: I think we can discuss the pros and cons of that,

1051
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 5: but I would much rather discuss it with someone who

1052
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:02,400
Speaker 5: has like the intellect as a writer to know what

1053
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 5: she's like, how she's putting that live wire together, than

1054
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 5: someone who was just doing it passively, right.

1055
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 3: So I think something that I found got like lost

1056
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 3: in this infinity discourse that took place in twenty fourteen

1057
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 3: and when the book originally came out in twenty twelve,

1058
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 3: is that, Yes, it is a risky thing to set

1059
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 3: up a story that is narrated by a woman who

1060
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 3: is lying about all these things, but Gillian Flynn does

1061
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 3: take care to put many other women in the story

1062
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 3: who feel many other ways, and in the character of Grete,

1063
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:38,120
Speaker 3: like you're saying Princess has actually experienced this, And I

1064
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 3: don't know, I feel like there were sort of like

1065
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 3: alarm bells set off of like this book thinks that

1066
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 3: this happens all the time, But I feel like there

1067
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 3: is enough in the way that other women act and

1068
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 3: react within the story to indicate that, Like, even without

1069
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:58,240
Speaker 3: reading Gillian Flynn's being questioned about this, it feels clear

1070
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 3: that Gillian Flynn understand and there is a full on gradient,

1071
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 3: you know, whether you like her work or not.

1072
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, And just to share some quotes from her on

1073
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:14,480
Speaker 4: that topic. So she identifies as a feminist, and she

1074
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 4: said this in response to people accusing her of writing

1075
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 4: misogynist caricatures of women, and of having a deep animosity

1076
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 4: toward women. She said, quote to me, that puts a

1077
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 4: very very small window on what feminism is. Is it

1078
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:39,200
Speaker 4: really only girl power, and you go girl and empower

1079
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 4: yourself and be the best you can be. For me,

1080
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 4: it's also the ability to have women who are bad characters.

1081
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:48,600
Speaker 4: The one thing that really frustrates me is this idea

1082
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 4: that women are innately good, innately nurturing. In literature. They

1083
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 4: can be dismissively bad, trampy, vampy, bitchy types. But there's

1084
01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 4: still a big pushback against the idea that women can

1085
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 4: just be pragmatically evil, bad, and selfish. I don't write

1086
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:08,960
Speaker 4: psycho bitches. The psycho bitch is just crazy. She has

1087
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:12,240
Speaker 4: no motive, and so she's a dismissable person because of

1088
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 4: her psycho bitchiness unquote. And then she wrote on her

1089
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 4: website she like kind of admits that her female characters

1090
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:28,919
Speaker 4: are quote not a particularly flattering portrait of women. Fine

1091
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:31,680
Speaker 4: by me. Isn't it time to acknowledge the ugly side?

1092
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 4: I've grown quite weary of the spunky heroines, brave rape victims,

1093
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 4: soul searching fashionistas that stock so many books. I particularly

1094
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:48,600
Speaker 4: mourn the lack of female villains unquote, so you can

1095
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:52,000
Speaker 4: think about what you'd like, but you know, she has

1096
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:55,720
Speaker 4: a firm point of view on that, And I tend

1097
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 4: to agree that, you know, this idea that just because

1098
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 4: women are like socialized to be polite and sweet and nurturing,

1099
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 4: doesn't mean that all of our personalities manifest that way,

1100
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 4: and that we don't have the full capacity for like

1101
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:16,760
Speaker 4: any type of behavior or any type of personality and

1102
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 4: any type of context that would lead you to be

1103
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:22,400
Speaker 4: the type of person who would do all the things

1104
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:25,080
Speaker 4: that Amy ends up doing so.

1105
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 5: And I also think, you know, as a society, but

1106
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:33,320
Speaker 5: you know, we so often want nuance in engaging roles

1107
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 5: for women, and then when they happen, we kind of

1108
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 5: discourse them to death for better or for worse. Like

1109
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:43,040
Speaker 5: I definitely I'm pro discourse. You know, I love reading

1110
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 5: all the salt Burn takes because I'm yeah, we're a

1111
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 5: part of it, you know, like, yeah, it just it

1112
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:53,160
Speaker 5: Sometimes it goes to a point where it's like, rather

1113
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 5: than just discussing like the finer points, it becomes a

1114
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:59,440
Speaker 5: indictment on Jillian Flynn as like a woman writer and

1115
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 5: like she's secretly a misogynist, and I'm just like, why

1116
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:08,280
Speaker 5: because her books contain bad female characters. That's an un

1117
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:13,000
Speaker 5: that's an unrealistic standard to hold to somebody, especially when

1118
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:16,840
Speaker 5: like they write mystery thrillers. It's not like they write

1119
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:19,840
Speaker 5: like it's not Colleen Hoover, you know what I mean,

1120
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:23,360
Speaker 5: Like it's nothing. They're writing like her novels imbued with

1121
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:28,480
Speaker 5: like abusive behavior. It's very much like these dark gothic

1122
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 5: stories with women at the center of it. Whether we

1123
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:34,920
Speaker 5: like it or not, I think that's more of what

1124
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:37,720
Speaker 5: we need. And you know, I think when it comes

1125
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:40,680
Speaker 5: to like this isn't a feminist movie, and that's okay.

1126
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:44,560
Speaker 5: It is literally about privileged people fighting over each other

1127
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:46,960
Speaker 5: when they should have just gotten a divorce. It's fun,

1128
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:49,920
Speaker 5: it's engaging, and I and I also resent that because

1129
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:53,080
Speaker 5: of movies like Fight Club and all the other like

1130
01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:57,960
Speaker 5: movies and books that CIS men largely misunderstand. There is

1131
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:00,240
Speaker 5: this idea that we as CIS women are all so

1132
01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:04,760
Speaker 5: misinterpreting our like nihilistic text. It's like no, no, no,

1133
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:07,480
Speaker 5: no Amy deserves to go to jail, but we're gonna

1134
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 5: enjoy the ride while it's happening.

1135
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:12,920
Speaker 3: Like Yeah, I think it's so clear she'll never like

1136
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 3: because she's protected by so much privileged, she'll never go

1137
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 3: to jail and she's chosen or she's you know, ended

1138
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:25,120
Speaker 3: up with a guy who is like just like thick

1139
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 3: and like is not able to outsmart her, like isn't

1140
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 3: and that's bad. He's in an abusive relationship.

1141
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:38,200
Speaker 5: But I don't know, Yeah, it's good storytelling, you know,

1142
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:41,840
Speaker 5: it's not necessarily about having the perfect moral ending. I think,

1143
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:45,000
Speaker 5: to me, what I enjoy critiquing is like the response

1144
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 5: to it. Because I don't know if you guys are

1145
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:51,280
Speaker 5: familiar with the gone Girl hoax Valeo incident in California.

1146
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:57,200
Speaker 5: What Okay, So let's see about six or seven years

1147
01:05:57,240 --> 01:05:59,720
Speaker 5: ago at this point, there was a couple that was

1148
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:03,640
Speaker 5: suffered a home invasion in kidnapping. They were a couple

1149
01:06:03,720 --> 01:06:07,760
Speaker 5: in Valeo and they talked about how these men broke

1150
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 5: in wearing wet suits, tied them up, blindfolded them, kidnapped

1151
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:15,400
Speaker 5: the FEMA member the couple and the police did not

1152
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:18,040
Speaker 5: believe them. They thought that this was a gone girl hook,

1153
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 5: that's what they called it. They mocked them publicly. Found

1154
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 5: out she was telling the truth. They were telling the

1155
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:26,760
Speaker 5: truth and it was a you scandal. They sued the

1156
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:30,439
Speaker 5: department for like thousands of dollars because they maligned them

1157
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 5: all over by calling it a hoax, not even bothering

1158
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:39,080
Speaker 5: to investigate it. They called her a bitch. The police

1159
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:42,640
Speaker 5: department called her a bitch. Yeah, I'll leave a link

1160
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:44,120
Speaker 5: to it in the chat and then you guys can

1161
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 5: share that with people. And I think about that all

1162
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:49,560
Speaker 5: the time because I think to myself, like, if you

1163
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:54,760
Speaker 5: live in a society that already believes that women are liars,

1164
01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 5: then it doesn't matter that Gone Girl exists or not.

1165
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:00,800
Speaker 5: That's just giving them a little bit, like did you

1166
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:03,240
Speaker 5: see that movie? And I think that's the catch twenty

1167
01:07:03,280 --> 01:07:09,480
Speaker 5: two is like we live in a sexist, misogynistic, patriarchal society,

1168
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:12,640
Speaker 5: and even when you have someone like Flynn making really

1169
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:15,800
Speaker 5: engaging art about this subject, this is also part of

1170
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 5: their result and I despise it, but it is part

1171
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:22,160
Speaker 5: of why the discourse happens, because like they called it

1172
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:24,240
Speaker 5: the Gone Girl hoax, and I just remember reading about

1173
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 5: it and thinking, you know, it sucks that when we

1174
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 5: have these texts that choose to be dark with us

1175
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 5: at the focus. If we are bad that becomes part

1176
01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 5: of the public miasma of how they already view us

1177
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:42,880
Speaker 5: as people, which.

1178
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:45,360
Speaker 2: Is something that happens with men, and it's very upsetting.

1179
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:50,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, it reminds me of when Fatal Attraction came out

1180
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:54,800
Speaker 4: and everyone hated Glenn Close, not just her character, but

1181
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 4: like hated her as a person because people saw that

1182
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 4: movie and they were like, well, she, I'm not used

1183
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:06,600
Speaker 4: to seeing women this way. She's so scary and evil

1184
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:09,560
Speaker 4: and what if a woman does that to me? And

1185
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 4: oh my gosh, And just like the reaction to this

1186
01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:18,519
Speaker 4: portrayal of a woman that was kind of I guess

1187
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:22,160
Speaker 4: probably more common in like film noir era of like

1188
01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:26,519
Speaker 4: the forties, but then you know, we got it away

1189
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:30,360
Speaker 4: from that in a lot of mainstream entertainment for several decades,

1190
01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:34,479
Speaker 4: and then when like, yeah, these like nineties thrillers kind

1191
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:39,320
Speaker 4: of like erotic thrillers resurfaced, then everyone was like, oh

1192
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:43,120
Speaker 4: my god, women can be bad, yi.

1193
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:46,080
Speaker 3: Right, and like that, I sort of would to revisit

1194
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:48,920
Speaker 3: Fatal Attraction, but there's like a whole you know, like

1195
01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:51,760
Speaker 3: conversation about but I feel like that's part of like

1196
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 3: even contrasting it with Gone Girl. It's like yes, you're

1197
01:08:56,240 --> 01:09:00,719
Speaker 3: getting a lot of discussion. But it's like so few

1198
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:03,720
Speaker 3: of those thrillers were actually written by women and like

1199
01:09:03,920 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 3: meaningfully include them in the process, And it makes Gone

1200
01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:10,800
Speaker 3: Girl stand out because it totally changes the nature of

1201
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:13,720
Speaker 3: the conversation that they're having. Also, I'm looking at this

1202
01:09:14,360 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 3: Vallejo piece, and the cop who basically perpetrated this hoax

1203
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:25,720
Speaker 3: was they Detective Matt Mustard. So I'm just throwing that

1204
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:28,679
Speaker 3: out there. I guess that we got a detective Bonie,

1205
01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:33,080
Speaker 3: we got a detective Detective Mustard. Are these clue characters

1206
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:37,479
Speaker 3: wherever he is, I hope he's doing poorly?

1207
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:41,160
Speaker 5: Yes? Yeah, But Caitlin, your point is so poignant because

1208
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:44,400
Speaker 5: I recently rewatched Fayla Trashing because I was doing something

1209
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:46,960
Speaker 5: about Don't Worry Darling like a year or so ago,

1210
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:50,200
Speaker 5: and I ended up rereading Backlash, and just the way

1211
01:09:50,280 --> 01:09:54,320
Speaker 5: that Fayla traction went from being like a man being

1212
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 5: introspected about how he like ruined his own marriage became

1213
01:09:57,360 --> 01:10:00,519
Speaker 5: like this bitch is crazy. And when you read what

1214
01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:03,639
Speaker 5: fail attraction, I gotta tell you I'm with her until

1215
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 5: the body boiling, Like until that point, I was like,

1216
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:09,400
Speaker 5: I see I see yeah, I'm not going to be

1217
01:10:09,439 --> 01:10:11,920
Speaker 5: ignored dad. I was like, that's right close, because how

1218
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:14,320
Speaker 5: dare he mess with you like this? It's very much

1219
01:10:14,439 --> 01:10:16,639
Speaker 5: like that, and I think it ties into the cool

1220
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:18,800
Speaker 5: girl monologue as well, because what it really is because

1221
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:21,360
Speaker 5: you notice that these women are usually blonde, very traditionally

1222
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:23,800
Speaker 5: attractive white women, and really what it is is that

1223
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:27,439
Speaker 5: men being confronted with the anxiety that their sex toy

1224
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:31,120
Speaker 5: object woman could kill them because they love to call

1225
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:33,280
Speaker 5: women crazy, they let to say, oh my crazy is

1226
01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:35,160
Speaker 5: blah blah blah, but like they did that she could

1227
01:10:35,160 --> 01:10:38,920
Speaker 5: actually be quote unquote crazy is their biggest nightmare to

1228
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:41,400
Speaker 5: be in the reverse side of having to worry about

1229
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:45,280
Speaker 5: violence being done to them by a person or a

1230
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:50,200
Speaker 5: body that they usually see as not a threat. It's like,

1231
01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:51,559
Speaker 5: all of a sudden, the thing that you just want

1232
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:55,400
Speaker 5: to use as a come dispensary is like, no, actually

1233
01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:57,840
Speaker 5: I want things from you, Like I think that's kind

1234
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:00,320
Speaker 5: of the thing about even with Gone Girl, where she

1235
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 5: was like he stopped trying and then I had he

1236
01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:07,000
Speaker 5: had to go, and I was just like, man, you

1237
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:08,920
Speaker 5: really do stay around for a long time that he

1238
01:11:09,040 --> 01:11:13,519
Speaker 5: stopped trying. You're like, maybe they'll try again tomorrow.

1239
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:16,040
Speaker 2: Right, And it's like, I don't know. That's like part

1240
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:18,160
Speaker 2: of what's so cathartic about it. It is just seeing

1241
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:18,920
Speaker 2: someone being.

1242
01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:21,400
Speaker 3: Like I mean and again it's like and none of

1243
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:25,000
Speaker 3: that makes her loss of an abuser, but it's the

1244
01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:27,960
Speaker 3: two things. Anytime two things need to be true, it's

1245
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:32,240
Speaker 3: gonna result in a lot of difficult conversation. I have

1246
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:34,200
Speaker 3: a quote on because I was interested in it, Like

1247
01:11:34,479 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 3: Rosamund Pike is so incredible and love her. Oh my gosh,

1248
01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:42,519
Speaker 3: she was nominated for an Oscar, I think very rightly so,

1249
01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:45,679
Speaker 3: so I just wanted to see, like what her take

1250
01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:48,599
Speaker 3: on Amy was when she was prepping for the role,

1251
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:51,280
Speaker 3: and she had a really interesting quote, Yeah this is

1252
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:54,960
Speaker 3: back in twenty fourteen, in like how she was contextualizing

1253
01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:58,559
Speaker 3: how Amy gets to where she's at. She says, quote,

1254
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:00,880
Speaker 3: I always think that people who have the hardest time

1255
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:03,439
Speaker 3: in the spotlight are the people who have unearned fame,

1256
01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:05,920
Speaker 3: like the girlfriends of people who are famous, or people

1257
01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:08,679
Speaker 3: who become figures of attention not through their own merit.

1258
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:11,200
Speaker 3: And that's what Amy has. Because she's the subject of

1259
01:12:11,280 --> 01:12:14,040
Speaker 3: these books. She's not only the subject, but it's like

1260
01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:16,880
Speaker 3: she's been given a fictional twin who's better than her,

1261
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 3: more accomplished than her, more popular than her, and more

1262
01:12:19,960 --> 01:12:22,679
Speaker 3: loved than her by her own parents. That's a recipe

1263
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:25,920
Speaker 3: for narcissism right there. Because you're entitled and you feel inadequate.

1264
01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:29,559
Speaker 3: Then that makes a very insecure adult who simultaneously has

1265
01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:32,800
Speaker 3: very high expectations of themselves and others. That for me

1266
01:12:33,240 --> 01:12:36,800
Speaker 3: was my end to the character. And I think, like

1267
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:39,439
Speaker 3: that makes a lot of sense. And even I don't

1268
01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:41,599
Speaker 3: know until I read that quote, I was like, oh, yeah,

1269
01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:45,200
Speaker 3: Like Nick has an actual twin, Amy has this like

1270
01:12:45,400 --> 01:12:48,719
Speaker 3: sort of phantom limb of this fictional Amy that doesn't

1271
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:54,280
Speaker 3: actually exist. She's always had difficulty connecting with people. And

1272
01:12:55,200 --> 01:12:58,000
Speaker 3: again just going back to the idea of like Amy

1273
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:02,360
Speaker 3: has never controlled a narrative in her very privileged life,

1274
01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:05,880
Speaker 3: but you know everything that sort of happened to her,

1275
01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:09,840
Speaker 3: her life has been guided by other people. And with Nick,

1276
01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:13,080
Speaker 3: you know understandably, like if you're parent are sick and

1277
01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:15,160
Speaker 3: you need to move home, okay, but you have to

1278
01:13:15,240 --> 01:13:17,760
Speaker 3: have a discussion with your spouse about that. You can't

1279
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:22,080
Speaker 3: just tell them we're going and then leave them to rot.

1280
01:13:22,360 --> 01:13:27,479
Speaker 3: In this ugly assmic mansion. Sorry yeah, uh so, uh Meryl,

1281
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:32,080
Speaker 3: Well that's great, But yeah, I mean I think that

1282
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:35,640
Speaker 3: like Amy is very well set up for who she is.

1283
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:37,760
Speaker 3: I also feel like there is this stereotype, but I

1284
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:39,720
Speaker 3: also have met people who have this experience of like

1285
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:43,439
Speaker 3: just being raised by psychologists and therapist. You always end

1286
01:13:43,600 --> 01:13:47,479
Speaker 3: up with just an interesting person who maybe you wouldn't

1287
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:51,400
Speaker 3: guess was raised by mental health professionals. And I say

1288
01:13:51,439 --> 01:13:54,519
Speaker 3: that with love, But yeah, I mean, I think like

1289
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:58,120
Speaker 3: criticism of Amy sometimes feels like it's taking place in

1290
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:00,600
Speaker 3: a vacuum, as if you're not given a lot of

1291
01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:04,000
Speaker 3: context on not just how she gets from A to

1292
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:07,040
Speaker 3: B in a very extreme way, but how the world

1293
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:10,519
Speaker 3: enables it. And again, I know that that starts as

1294
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:13,280
Speaker 3: slippery slope, where like I know that having it suggested

1295
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:18,400
Speaker 3: that like a woman can use a fundamentally misogynist world

1296
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:21,960
Speaker 3: to bend to their will is not true. But I

1297
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:25,320
Speaker 3: think in the context of this story, Gilliam Flynn does

1298
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:28,040
Speaker 3: a good job of setting up how for this story

1299
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:34,519
Speaker 3: it works. Prinstance, I'm really interested in your feelings on

1300
01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:39,960
Speaker 3: how this movie interacts with like true crime media and

1301
01:14:40,080 --> 01:14:42,080
Speaker 3: how these stories are reported.

1302
01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:45,439
Speaker 5: Okay, So I got into true crime mostly because I

1303
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:47,439
Speaker 5: used to watch twenty twenty in my room by myself,

1304
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:50,240
Speaker 5: because I was that kid. And I remember watching the

1305
01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:53,360
Speaker 5: Amanda Knox twenty twenty docs and just being like.

1306
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:54,840
Speaker 2: What do you mean there's no DNA?

1307
01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:57,200
Speaker 5: Why is she in jail? And that only happened to

1308
01:14:57,240 --> 01:15:00,320
Speaker 5: black people. And I think Amanda Knox being convened did

1309
01:15:00,479 --> 01:15:04,599
Speaker 5: for being awkward in the public eye of Italy has

1310
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:07,800
Speaker 5: always stuck with me because I think that's so indicative

1311
01:15:07,840 --> 01:15:10,519
Speaker 5: of how true crime works. I think with Nick, even

1312
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:13,600
Speaker 5: though he definitely has some shady aspects to him, the

1313
01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:17,599
Speaker 5: panopticon level of attention that he got for just doing

1314
01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:21,280
Speaker 5: like smiling too much, and I think about too like

1315
01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:24,880
Speaker 5: when that picture happens, someone says smile at him and

1316
01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:26,599
Speaker 5: he just responds.

1317
01:15:26,479 --> 01:15:29,080
Speaker 2: Like a doberman, and I'm like, what even his idea?

1318
01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:32,200
Speaker 5: And just like you know, the people coming towards him

1319
01:15:32,240 --> 01:15:34,760
Speaker 5: and trying to be like, hey, like how can we

1320
01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:37,640
Speaker 5: help you, and him trying to be polite, but that

1321
01:15:38,120 --> 01:15:40,880
Speaker 5: sees people going as like, well, he doesn't seem sad enough,

1322
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:44,600
Speaker 5: and that happens so often, usually with women. And I

1323
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:47,040
Speaker 5: think what's interesting as well, is that like Nick on

1324
01:15:47,479 --> 01:15:50,920
Speaker 5: paper and especially how Amy writes him in the journal

1325
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:54,439
Speaker 5: has all the makings of a family annihilator. Girl. It's

1326
01:15:54,600 --> 01:15:57,360
Speaker 5: like the debt, the loss of a job, the income

1327
01:15:57,479 --> 01:16:01,360
Speaker 5: being only in the woman's name, like a baby on

1328
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:05,439
Speaker 5: the way. Those are all like classic family annihilator like tropes,

1329
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:07,519
Speaker 5: which you know she probably write in one of those

1330
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:08,360
Speaker 5: books she was reading.

1331
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:11,879
Speaker 2: And so it interests out, Oh my god, her little Skelter,

1332
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:13,480
Speaker 2: her little library.

1333
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:16,680
Speaker 3: I also, oh my gosh, how much that people in

1334
01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:19,960
Speaker 3: the movie interact with media to craft this narrative, Like

1335
01:16:20,080 --> 01:16:22,280
Speaker 3: Amy knows what's going to work.

1336
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:24,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, Also that she shows no one checked out her

1337
01:16:25,040 --> 01:16:27,800
Speaker 5: library card or whatever, because like he didn't see that

1338
01:16:27,880 --> 01:16:30,120
Speaker 5: she was ordering Helter Skelter and all these other books,

1339
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:32,519
Speaker 5: like what's that clicking, Missouria? Okay.

1340
01:16:32,680 --> 01:16:37,479
Speaker 4: Also I have another little plot hole where Okay, we

1341
01:16:37,680 --> 01:16:41,000
Speaker 4: learn that there's a neighbor whose name is Watchful Wally,

1342
01:16:42,240 --> 01:16:45,519
Speaker 4: implying that he's like very snoopy and like always kind

1343
01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:48,680
Speaker 4: of like watching them and watching their house. He's the

1344
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:52,040
Speaker 4: guy who calls Nick and is like, your door is

1345
01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 4: open and your cat's outside. You might want to check

1346
01:16:54,960 --> 01:16:57,200
Speaker 4: on that. And that's how like Nick ends up discovering

1347
01:16:57,920 --> 01:17:03,880
Speaker 4: that this like Home and Asian happened anyway, watchful Wally,

1348
01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:07,120
Speaker 4: where were you when Amy was leaving the house on

1349
01:17:07,240 --> 01:17:10,160
Speaker 4: July fifteenth? It seems like you were right there having

1350
01:17:10,240 --> 01:17:13,799
Speaker 4: a watchful eye. How did she seek a watch undering

1351
01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:15,200
Speaker 4: a watchful.

1352
01:17:16,040 --> 01:17:18,080
Speaker 5: I bet she had him under surveillance. I bet she

1353
01:17:18,160 --> 01:17:20,200
Speaker 5: had like a secret camera. I just gee her too

1354
01:17:20,280 --> 01:17:22,760
Speaker 5: much credit. I'm just like, he's just that good.

1355
01:17:23,240 --> 01:17:25,960
Speaker 3: She did kind of think of everything, so she really

1356
01:17:26,240 --> 01:17:29,920
Speaker 3: I also like the fact that Nick, again Nick a

1357
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:34,280
Speaker 3: victim of abuse and objectively a bad husband. Yeah, which

1358
01:17:34,680 --> 01:17:36,560
Speaker 3: you know, I trust our listeners to be able to

1359
01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:38,640
Speaker 3: understand that. But the fact that he all he like

1360
01:17:39,240 --> 01:17:43,960
Speaker 3: from the beginning, when he's first asked by the detective like, well,

1361
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:46,120
Speaker 3: what is she into? He's like, she's a big reader.

1362
01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:48,480
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, yeah, of her murder library.

1363
01:17:49,400 --> 01:17:49,960
Speaker 4: She's like.

1364
01:17:51,439 --> 01:17:53,920
Speaker 3: Reading to plan to ruin your life. You just didn't

1365
01:17:54,000 --> 01:17:56,640
Speaker 3: notice the genre she was heavily trafficking in.

1366
01:17:57,479 --> 01:17:59,519
Speaker 2: Sure just signed that.

1367
01:18:00,240 --> 01:18:02,840
Speaker 5: I cannot explain to you the ways in which that, Like,

1368
01:18:03,439 --> 01:18:05,400
Speaker 5: if anyone asked me this sign, oh do you want

1369
01:18:05,400 --> 01:18:06,360
Speaker 5: to like up your insurance?

1370
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:06,479
Speaker 3: No?

1371
01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:09,919
Speaker 5: Who are you I would ask like as like absolutely,

1372
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:12,400
Speaker 5: I don't care about insurance. I want everything to be

1373
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:15,800
Speaker 5: given to the government when I die. But that's the

1374
01:18:15,840 --> 01:18:18,679
Speaker 5: true crime angle, is like the fan fare, and also

1375
01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:22,439
Speaker 5: that there's so many women around because there has been

1376
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:26,559
Speaker 5: like everyone's in a true crime, but definitely women especially

1377
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:29,439
Speaker 5: get put the forefront of those situations, and like Noel

1378
01:18:29,600 --> 01:18:33,599
Speaker 5: constantly like putting herself into conversation, the Nancy Grace XP,

1379
01:18:33,760 --> 01:18:36,559
Speaker 5: who is just hitting here, like what is this man doing?

1380
01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:38,439
Speaker 5: And I'm just like all of it kind of just

1381
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:43,559
Speaker 5: shows the farce of thank you. It all just kind

1382
01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:45,720
Speaker 5: of shows the farcical nature of it and how it's

1383
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:51,160
Speaker 5: never based on facts or a total inventory of information,

1384
01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:54,320
Speaker 5: but just the play by play moments of like intense

1385
01:18:54,520 --> 01:18:58,200
Speaker 5: emotion of like this innocent young white woman. They don't

1386
01:18:58,240 --> 01:18:59,840
Speaker 5: say that, but that is the path of it is

1387
01:19:00,080 --> 01:19:02,400
Speaker 5: missing and we all just need to galvanize and protect her.

1388
01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:06,120
Speaker 5: And her husband is being very suspicious because he's not sad.

1389
01:19:06,720 --> 01:19:10,000
Speaker 5: And I think all of those things are stuff that

1390
01:19:10,160 --> 01:19:13,280
Speaker 5: you saw in the dep Herd case of like who's

1391
01:19:13,439 --> 01:19:16,719
Speaker 5: more charismatic, who looks like they're being their their most

1392
01:19:16,840 --> 01:19:21,679
Speaker 5: authentic self, And how Nick is able to convince everyone

1393
01:19:21,800 --> 01:19:27,320
Speaker 5: that he's genuine by giving a highly curated, highly you know,

1394
01:19:27,680 --> 01:19:31,800
Speaker 5: feedback looped interview that he's prepped for for a significant

1395
01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:34,800
Speaker 5: amount of time, and everyone's like, Wow, he's he's a

1396
01:19:34,880 --> 01:19:39,080
Speaker 5: good man, Savannah. The media really manipulates and warps the

1397
01:19:39,160 --> 01:19:41,800
Speaker 5: way that we via that kind of information, and it

1398
01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:45,760
Speaker 5: wants us to view it at the most surfaced level thing.

1399
01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:48,439
Speaker 5: And that's why people go to jail when they should

1400
01:19:48,920 --> 01:19:51,519
Speaker 5: most of the time. And that's why we had, you know,

1401
01:19:51,560 --> 01:19:54,880
Speaker 5: with the Gabby Poto incident, what that play by play

1402
01:19:55,720 --> 01:19:59,640
Speaker 5: wait it happened online did, besides being super toxic, was

1403
01:19:59,680 --> 01:20:03,040
Speaker 5: it left a lot of evidence of people who assumed,

1404
01:20:03,920 --> 01:20:06,799
Speaker 5: based off of nothing, that she was an abusive person,

1405
01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:09,280
Speaker 5: only to find out that she had been murdered by

1406
01:20:09,360 --> 01:20:10,160
Speaker 5: her partner.

1407
01:20:10,120 --> 01:20:12,920
Speaker 2: Which is typically what happens in these situations.

1408
01:20:13,520 --> 01:20:16,800
Speaker 5: But even amongst other women, there is this internalized misogyny

1409
01:20:16,880 --> 01:20:20,559
Speaker 5: that is so quick to say that it is feminist

1410
01:20:20,640 --> 01:20:23,479
Speaker 5: to say that women can also be bad people, and

1411
01:20:23,600 --> 01:20:30,080
Speaker 5: it's like, yes, However, we live in a society and like,

1412
01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:33,960
Speaker 5: when a situation like this happens, typically it's these ways

1413
01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:38,280
Speaker 5: until proven otherwise. And I think it was River Kwan

1414
01:20:38,320 --> 01:20:40,479
Speaker 5: who wrote a very good article about this during the

1415
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:43,360
Speaker 5: deb Per trial, which is like assummation of it is

1416
01:20:43,360 --> 01:20:46,280
Speaker 5: basically saying that, like, we are at a place where

1417
01:20:46,360 --> 01:20:49,479
Speaker 5: people want to believe that we've moved past the point

1418
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:54,400
Speaker 5: of needing to believe women because the default is believe women,

1419
01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:57,840
Speaker 5: But the reality is we've never even started to believe women.

1420
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:02,759
Speaker 3: Oh god, yeah, well, because that's like what's so difficult

1421
01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:06,560
Speaker 3: about having this conversation. And I know that our listeners

1422
01:21:06,760 --> 01:21:11,240
Speaker 3: are like media literate and competent, and it's like, I

1423
01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:14,720
Speaker 3: don't know, there did feel like an element of like,

1424
01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:18,360
Speaker 3: if you enjoy and want to interact with this, you

1425
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:23,360
Speaker 3: are endorsing the reality in full that's presented, where it's

1426
01:21:23,400 --> 01:21:27,960
Speaker 3: like you're total like we all know on this gorgeous

1427
01:21:28,000 --> 01:21:32,599
Speaker 3: zoom call that women by and large do not lie

1428
01:21:32,680 --> 01:21:35,200
Speaker 3: about this, and that the way that media is presented

1429
01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:38,160
Speaker 3: is interesting to me. In this movie, I feel like

1430
01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:41,720
Speaker 3: there are moments that are sort of editorialized to a

1431
01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:43,120
Speaker 3: point where I don't know. I mean, I think that

1432
01:21:43,240 --> 01:21:48,640
Speaker 3: Amy anticipates media and the world underestimating her, and she

1433
01:21:48,880 --> 01:21:52,759
Speaker 3: studies the narratives that have worked and perpetuated in the past.

1434
01:21:53,439 --> 01:21:57,479
Speaker 3: I think this movie really smartly avoids social media because

1435
01:21:57,520 --> 01:22:00,479
Speaker 3: that's another whole, you know, wormhole that you would have

1436
01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:03,840
Speaker 3: to narratively unpack. But in terms of like the Nancy

1437
01:22:03,880 --> 01:22:06,720
Speaker 3: graces of the world and the exploitation with which these

1438
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:11,599
Speaker 3: stories are handled, like Amy studies the narratives that are

1439
01:22:11,800 --> 01:22:15,560
Speaker 3: true and have happened and take advantage of them in

1440
01:22:15,760 --> 01:22:19,120
Speaker 3: order to sort of pull this off. And it's like,

1441
01:22:19,200 --> 01:22:21,960
Speaker 3: I also think that if you leave Gone Girl being

1442
01:22:22,080 --> 01:22:25,200
Speaker 3: like all women are doing this, that's an incredibly poor

1443
01:22:25,280 --> 01:22:28,240
Speaker 3: read of the movie. That happens all the time, and

1444
01:22:28,439 --> 01:22:33,479
Speaker 3: often with David Fincher movies specifically. There's absolutely people that

1445
01:22:33,720 --> 01:22:37,559
Speaker 3: leave this movie thinking like women are bitches, women are liars,

1446
01:22:38,240 --> 01:22:40,760
Speaker 3: just as they let Fatal Attraction feeling that way, and

1447
01:22:41,720 --> 01:22:43,400
Speaker 3: to some extent, I mean, I don't know, I feel

1448
01:22:43,400 --> 01:22:46,120
Speaker 3: like we've sort of been through the ringer of having

1449
01:22:46,200 --> 01:22:49,519
Speaker 3: this discussion over the years of like well as a writer,

1450
01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:53,040
Speaker 3: especially Gilliam Flynn, as a woman writing this, how much

1451
01:22:53,120 --> 01:22:56,479
Speaker 3: can you hold her accountable for someone watching this movie

1452
01:22:56,640 --> 01:22:57,439
Speaker 3: and leaving with.

1453
01:22:57,800 --> 01:23:00,000
Speaker 2: A brain dead take about it.

1454
01:23:00,640 --> 01:23:03,080
Speaker 3: I don't know. I think we recently had this conversation

1455
01:23:03,200 --> 01:23:07,040
Speaker 3: about Goodfellas where you're like a million people leave Goodfellas

1456
01:23:07,120 --> 01:23:09,880
Speaker 3: with the wrong idea about what the movie was about.

1457
01:23:10,080 --> 01:23:13,000
Speaker 3: But if you're watching it, it's clear what it's about.

1458
01:23:13,120 --> 01:23:14,679
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's true, it's true.

1459
01:23:15,120 --> 01:23:17,840
Speaker 5: It's a large or problem, and like I just started

1460
01:23:17,880 --> 01:23:21,720
Speaker 5: recently watching Breaking Bad to prepare for hashtag content, and

1461
01:23:22,280 --> 01:23:25,200
Speaker 5: I'd always heard about like, oh, yeah, Skyle's a bitch,

1462
01:23:25,240 --> 01:23:26,800
Speaker 5: but that I've also been a live long enough as

1463
01:23:26,840 --> 01:23:28,960
Speaker 5: I have seen like, but people just don't know how

1464
01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:31,640
Speaker 5: to read her and she's technically good. Later within the

1465
01:23:31,800 --> 01:23:35,760
Speaker 5: first season, I'm like, of course Skyler is right. He's

1466
01:23:35,800 --> 01:23:39,280
Speaker 5: being like egotistical and insecure about like his balls and

1467
01:23:39,360 --> 01:23:42,320
Speaker 5: his money because of the cancer. What's not clicking, and

1468
01:23:42,439 --> 01:23:47,160
Speaker 5: what's not clicking is just a resentment towards how do

1469
01:23:47,240 --> 01:23:49,560
Speaker 5: I put this? I think when it comes to that

1470
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:52,639
Speaker 5: intercession of like race and gender, I feel like, post

1471
01:23:52,720 --> 01:23:56,519
Speaker 5: to the twenty sixteen election, once it was released that

1472
01:23:56,840 --> 01:23:59,920
Speaker 5: a number of white women voted for Trump, it became

1473
01:24:00,240 --> 01:24:02,400
Speaker 5: this thing to be able to say, you see, how

1474
01:24:02,439 --> 01:24:05,040
Speaker 5: they're really the problem, and all of a sudden it

1475
01:24:05,160 --> 01:24:09,000
Speaker 5: became an easy way to not talk about race and

1476
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:12,360
Speaker 5: power and gender and how it intersects, but to make

1477
01:24:12,640 --> 01:24:17,559
Speaker 5: somehow white women the seventh season big bad of culture

1478
01:24:18,360 --> 01:24:21,120
Speaker 5: to pivot away from white men. And I feel like

1479
01:24:21,680 --> 01:24:25,479
Speaker 5: things like Gone Girl, even though it came out before then,

1480
01:24:25,720 --> 01:24:28,919
Speaker 5: are used to uplift that idea. There is this desire

1481
01:24:29,120 --> 01:24:34,479
Speaker 5: to do woke misogyny by attacking white women de facto

1482
01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:38,519
Speaker 5: for their like white feminity and like historical indictments, while

1483
01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:40,280
Speaker 5: ignoring that it was against people of.

1484
01:24:40,360 --> 01:24:42,400
Speaker 2: Color and not against white men.

1485
01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:45,120
Speaker 5: You know, it's like if we stop using black and

1486
01:24:45,160 --> 01:24:48,160
Speaker 5: brown experiences to justify your hatred of white women. But

1487
01:24:48,280 --> 01:24:50,640
Speaker 5: I think that's a part of it is that, like

1488
01:24:50,800 --> 01:24:56,479
Speaker 5: a lot of people dislike white women because of their

1489
01:24:56,520 --> 01:24:59,320
Speaker 5: own power, and they become a symbolic way to attack

1490
01:24:59,439 --> 01:25:01,920
Speaker 5: all women by putting them at the top of the

1491
01:25:02,640 --> 01:25:04,640
Speaker 5: at the totem pole and then having them be the

1492
01:25:04,720 --> 01:25:07,360
Speaker 5: ones in which she put all that harm towards. Because

1493
01:25:07,400 --> 01:25:10,160
Speaker 5: you look at any wife in any of these shows,

1494
01:25:10,760 --> 01:25:14,000
Speaker 5: their biggest crime is being a hypocrite or being slightly nagging.

1495
01:25:14,040 --> 01:25:16,679
Speaker 5: They're like, they're worse and the murderers. I'm like, that's

1496
01:25:17,479 --> 01:25:22,519
Speaker 5: not true, right, Camilla Soprano is not as bad as

1497
01:25:22,560 --> 01:25:24,519
Speaker 5: tell you. A soprano. You cannot tell me that because

1498
01:25:24,560 --> 01:25:26,720
Speaker 5: she makes ZD and wanted to have sex with a

1499
01:25:26,760 --> 01:25:28,680
Speaker 5: priest one time, that that means that.

1500
01:25:28,720 --> 01:25:30,360
Speaker 2: She's among us who.

1501
01:25:32,360 --> 01:25:34,600
Speaker 5: Yeah. So I think it's all connected to just a

1502
01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:36,800
Speaker 5: way in which that we're still trying to process talking

1503
01:25:36,840 --> 01:25:42,080
Speaker 5: about all these things, but the loudest, most un intellectual

1504
01:25:42,200 --> 01:25:44,800
Speaker 5: conversations will always rise to the surface. And I think

1505
01:25:44,920 --> 01:25:50,519
Speaker 5: also with women, this ties to Barbie and something like

1506
01:25:50,840 --> 01:25:56,000
Speaker 5: and Ley Wonder Woman. There is this need to critique

1507
01:25:56,680 --> 01:26:02,479
Speaker 5: white women from misogynistic framework that has really trickled into film,

1508
01:26:02,680 --> 01:26:07,479
Speaker 5: and it's frustrating because it's useless and not helpful, and

1509
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:09,920
Speaker 5: it just feels like a way of just having men

1510
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:16,160
Speaker 5: use the language of diversity to be horrible sexist. And yeah,

1511
01:26:16,320 --> 01:26:17,960
Speaker 5: Gone Girl is like one of those texts that they

1512
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:19,800
Speaker 5: used to to embody that.

1513
01:26:20,920 --> 01:26:23,840
Speaker 4: And I have to kind of assume that one of

1514
01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:27,479
Speaker 4: the reasons that this movie and the book faced the

1515
01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:30,840
Speaker 4: backlash that it did. As far as Gillian Flynn being

1516
01:26:31,000 --> 01:26:35,400
Speaker 4: accused of how dare you write a bad character because

1517
01:26:35,520 --> 01:26:40,520
Speaker 4: women are good in a way that like completely erases

1518
01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:45,720
Speaker 4: and disregards the idea that women and fems again are

1519
01:26:46,920 --> 01:26:54,040
Speaker 4: full human beings capable of the full range of human emotions, behaviors, experiences, etc.

1520
01:26:55,080 --> 01:26:59,880
Speaker 4: Kind of ignoring that. I wonder if the reaction was

1521
01:27:00,120 --> 01:27:02,960
Speaker 4: the way that it was because we're just so used

1522
01:27:03,080 --> 01:27:07,840
Speaker 4: to as far as like you know, pop culture movies, TV, books,

1523
01:27:07,880 --> 01:27:12,560
Speaker 4: et cetera, the most popular depictions of women have just

1524
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:17,080
Speaker 4: been so flat, so one dimensional, so underdeveloped, you know,

1525
01:27:17,200 --> 01:27:20,040
Speaker 4: the love interest, the damsel blah blah blah. That when

1526
01:27:20,080 --> 01:27:24,439
Speaker 4: you do see a woman that is a departure of

1527
01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:28,600
Speaker 4: those types of like stock characters, and especially one that

1528
01:27:28,840 --> 01:27:31,920
Speaker 4: behaves badly and is abusive and is a liar and

1529
01:27:32,160 --> 01:27:35,439
Speaker 4: manipulative and all that kind of stuff, no one knows

1530
01:27:35,560 --> 01:27:38,519
Speaker 4: how to handle it or interpret it. Or you know,

1531
01:27:38,600 --> 01:27:43,360
Speaker 4: we're so used to seeing women this way on screen

1532
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:46,720
Speaker 4: and then assuming that women are just probably that way

1533
01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:51,240
Speaker 4: in real life. And again, we live in a society, right,

1534
01:27:51,360 --> 01:27:57,639
Speaker 4: and our perceptions are in misogyny external and internal, really

1535
01:27:57,720 --> 01:28:02,240
Speaker 4: warp perceptions of of the behavior of women.

1536
01:28:03,439 --> 01:28:08,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it feels ongoing still this and again a

1537
01:28:08,520 --> 01:28:14,080
Speaker 3: lot of the criticism of centering a woman abuser makes

1538
01:28:14,120 --> 01:28:16,679
Speaker 3: sense to me in the context of when the movie

1539
01:28:16,840 --> 01:28:18,920
Speaker 3: was released, But there is sort of this feeling of

1540
01:28:19,200 --> 01:28:23,240
Speaker 3: like I think sometimes it's positioned as like, but women

1541
01:28:23,560 --> 01:28:26,120
Speaker 3: just got to be characters.

1542
01:28:26,439 --> 01:28:29,400
Speaker 2: You can't make them evil right away, you have to, like,

1543
01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:30,160
Speaker 2: and I think it.

1544
01:28:30,200 --> 01:28:33,200
Speaker 3: Does sort of mistakenly like I feel like there's a

1545
01:28:33,240 --> 01:28:36,120
Speaker 3: way where you could see it as this like still

1546
01:28:36,280 --> 01:28:40,800
Speaker 3: patriarchal thinking of like, well, we just got allowed, we

1547
01:28:41,120 --> 01:28:45,160
Speaker 3: just became considered marketable, like you know, less than twenty

1548
01:28:45,240 --> 01:28:47,439
Speaker 3: years ago, so we should spend a couple of decades

1549
01:28:47,479 --> 01:28:51,040
Speaker 3: making movies about how awesome women are and how But again,

1550
01:28:51,080 --> 01:28:55,560
Speaker 3: it's like sort of catering to patriarchal thinking because theoretically

1551
01:28:56,080 --> 01:29:00,360
Speaker 3: every kind of women, with every kind of character, that's

1552
01:29:00,840 --> 01:29:07,240
Speaker 3: the equity standpoint, because men have been behaving horrifically in

1553
01:29:07,360 --> 01:29:10,120
Speaker 3: movies since the beginning of time and are always praised

1554
01:29:10,120 --> 01:29:11,719
Speaker 3: for it, and a lot of those movies are amazing.

1555
01:29:11,840 --> 01:29:16,760
Speaker 3: But it's like, yeah, centering a woman who is objectively

1556
01:29:16,920 --> 01:29:19,839
Speaker 3: a bad person and we have a lot of information

1557
01:29:20,000 --> 01:29:23,519
Speaker 3: about her, it felt like to some extent people were like, well,

1558
01:29:23,560 --> 01:29:27,040
Speaker 3: this is gonna set us back actually, because there is

1559
01:29:27,160 --> 01:29:29,640
Speaker 3: not a redemptive arc for her. So in like the

1560
01:29:30,200 --> 01:29:34,240
Speaker 3: movie sense, it feels it's kind of frustrating and that's

1561
01:29:34,400 --> 01:29:37,519
Speaker 3: complicated because you have to layer it with how many

1562
01:29:37,640 --> 01:29:40,040
Speaker 3: men go to see Gone Girl and leave with the

1563
01:29:40,120 --> 01:29:44,600
Speaker 3: wrong message. I don't think that that's Gillian Flint's problem necessarily,

1564
01:29:44,840 --> 01:29:48,639
Speaker 3: and so I don't know. Ye also watch more movies

1565
01:29:48,680 --> 01:29:49,400
Speaker 3: if you think that.

1566
01:29:49,600 --> 01:29:51,360
Speaker 5: I mean not to say that there isn't say that

1567
01:29:51,400 --> 01:29:53,760
Speaker 5: there isn't like definitely a gender issues, but like you

1568
01:29:53,800 --> 01:29:57,040
Speaker 5: think Betty Davis would just playing likable women her entire career,

1569
01:29:57,240 --> 01:30:01,120
Speaker 5: right because she was not and she got two oscars. Baby. Yeah,

1570
01:30:01,320 --> 01:30:03,400
Speaker 5: I totally get what you're saying. And I think that's

1571
01:30:03,479 --> 01:30:06,000
Speaker 5: been a that's always a narrative of like, well, we

1572
01:30:06,280 --> 01:30:08,439
Speaker 5: just got this, so let's try and wait, you know,

1573
01:30:08,640 --> 01:30:11,920
Speaker 5: ten or so five years. And I get why that happens.

1574
01:30:11,920 --> 01:30:15,200
Speaker 5: It's just cycimical because like one bad person doing a

1575
01:30:15,280 --> 01:30:18,560
Speaker 5: bad thing does not completely flip the script, you know,

1576
01:30:18,720 --> 01:30:22,400
Speaker 5: like one notable case of like a false assault allegation

1577
01:30:22,840 --> 01:30:28,120
Speaker 5: does not erase the countless others of how statistics work.

1578
01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:31,720
Speaker 5: And yet we're like when The Joker came out, you know,

1579
01:30:31,880 --> 01:30:34,840
Speaker 5: there was so much whinging about like what it would

1580
01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:39,040
Speaker 5: do to like society and culture and what did it do?

1581
01:30:39,560 --> 01:30:44,519
Speaker 5: Absolutely nothing except Get Walk finally Get Jaquim in Oscar

1582
01:30:44,920 --> 01:30:47,479
Speaker 5: that you should have gotten ten years ago. That was

1583
01:30:47,560 --> 01:30:50,439
Speaker 5: the extent of its impact, Like we don't need to

1584
01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:56,640
Speaker 5: like enough, let women be bad, let women plan their

1585
01:30:56,800 --> 01:30:58,519
Speaker 5: man's demise in peace?

1586
01:30:58,920 --> 01:31:03,839
Speaker 2: Okay, cop, are you a detective Mustard?

1587
01:31:04,360 --> 01:31:07,760
Speaker 3: Like it's so yeah, And I think it reinforces the

1588
01:31:07,880 --> 01:31:10,280
Speaker 3: idea that every movie that centers a woman has to

1589
01:31:10,320 --> 01:31:17,599
Speaker 3: be about feminism, and that is also an extremely limiting idea,

1590
01:31:17,880 --> 01:31:19,800
Speaker 3: or every movie that centers a woman has to be

1591
01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:24,520
Speaker 3: an overtly feminist movie in order to be considered successful.

1592
01:31:25,520 --> 01:31:31,200
Speaker 4: Even just this like subgenre of women seeking revenge, Like

1593
01:31:31,360 --> 01:31:35,880
Speaker 4: I'm fascinated by the like hell hath no fury like

1594
01:31:36,000 --> 01:31:40,840
Speaker 4: a woman scorned premise and the many many movies that

1595
01:31:40,920 --> 01:31:43,920
Speaker 4: we get kind of based on that premise, many of

1596
01:31:43,960 --> 01:31:44,599
Speaker 4: which we've covered.

1597
01:31:44,760 --> 01:31:46,559
Speaker 2: Just did Revenge, bur we did.

1598
01:31:46,439 --> 01:31:48,760
Speaker 4: Our second revenge, per I don't even what did we

1599
01:31:48,880 --> 01:31:52,920
Speaker 4: cover on the first revenge? So many I don't even

1600
01:31:53,000 --> 01:31:56,320
Speaker 4: know anyway, Yeah, we've examined a lot of them on

1601
01:31:56,680 --> 01:31:59,479
Speaker 4: the show, and there it stands to reason that they

1602
01:31:59,520 --> 01:32:03,080
Speaker 4: would all be pretty different movies coming at that topic

1603
01:32:03,200 --> 01:32:07,240
Speaker 4: with different angles and and this is just an entry

1604
01:32:07,600 --> 01:32:11,560
Speaker 4: in that subgenre that is quite different from many of

1605
01:32:11,640 --> 01:32:15,600
Speaker 4: the other ones. It's nothing like kill Bill or do

1606
01:32:15,840 --> 01:32:21,360
Speaker 4: Revenge or you know other ones that I can't remember.

1607
01:32:23,040 --> 01:32:27,200
Speaker 2: And that's a good thing, Like yeah, for sure.

1608
01:32:27,880 --> 01:32:29,920
Speaker 5: And also Revenge is like it's like one of the

1609
01:32:30,040 --> 01:32:32,600
Speaker 5: best things to watch and me, like Shakespeare did it

1610
01:32:33,320 --> 01:32:35,200
Speaker 5: and like everyone said it was okay when he did it,

1611
01:32:35,400 --> 01:32:37,519
Speaker 5: So like, what's the big deal. Why can't Jillian do it?

1612
01:32:37,760 --> 01:32:41,639
Speaker 5: Why can't Jillian have a toxic person ruin their loved ones' lives,

1613
01:32:42,120 --> 01:32:42,280
Speaker 5: you know?

1614
01:32:42,520 --> 01:32:47,000
Speaker 3: H Yeah, And she also recently started her own book,

1615
01:32:47,120 --> 01:32:50,599
Speaker 3: Imprint to to to spread the good words, so I'm.

1616
01:32:51,240 --> 01:32:52,240
Speaker 2: Excited about that. Yeah.

1617
01:32:52,280 --> 01:32:54,920
Speaker 3: I feel like in terms of like how because I did,

1618
01:32:55,040 --> 01:33:01,000
Speaker 3: I have a distinct, like Twitter memory of Gillian Flynn's

1619
01:33:01,040 --> 01:33:04,960
Speaker 3: quotes about being a feminist and being the author of

1620
01:33:05,040 --> 01:33:09,439
Speaker 3: Gone Girl. I remember that and how heavily discussed that

1621
01:33:09,840 --> 01:33:14,040
Speaker 3: was and I think it's aged pretty well she is. Yeah,

1622
01:33:14,280 --> 01:33:18,120
Speaker 3: And also I think like again, there should be and

1623
01:33:18,479 --> 01:33:22,320
Speaker 3: have been more stories about women and women who are

1624
01:33:22,400 --> 01:33:24,680
Speaker 3: unreliable narrators. I feel like you can't just let men

1625
01:33:24,760 --> 01:33:27,679
Speaker 3: be unreliable narrators. It's so limiting and that's no fun.

1626
01:33:28,439 --> 01:33:30,439
Speaker 2: It's just no good for real.

1627
01:33:30,600 --> 01:33:32,960
Speaker 5: And I will say on a shallow note, like you know,

1628
01:33:33,200 --> 01:33:37,760
Speaker 5: as a millennial in the situationship era, this movie really

1629
01:33:37,840 --> 01:33:38,719
Speaker 5: does hit different.

1630
01:33:38,960 --> 01:33:42,880
Speaker 2: It's like, wow, uh, it really do be like that sometimes.

1631
01:33:42,880 --> 01:33:44,280
Speaker 5: And I think that's the thing as well as like

1632
01:33:44,360 --> 01:33:48,040
Speaker 5: a lot of like female revenge movies do live at this,

1633
01:33:48,240 --> 01:33:49,720
Speaker 5: Like I think of like do revenge what you just

1634
01:33:49,800 --> 01:33:52,600
Speaker 5: mentioned live with this indition of like the frustration it

1635
01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:54,880
Speaker 5: is to like be a woman who has to be

1636
01:33:55,080 --> 01:33:58,439
Speaker 5: nice in the face of like bullshit because you can't

1637
01:33:58,439 --> 01:34:03,679
Speaker 5: because like if Amy could just like cancel him on Twitter,

1638
01:34:04,360 --> 01:34:06,400
Speaker 5: I think she would have just done that. Like if

1639
01:34:06,439 --> 01:34:07,640
Speaker 5: she could have just done that, she would have just

1640
01:34:07,720 --> 01:34:11,000
Speaker 5: wroughte a long, expensive tweet thread. But she would be

1641
01:34:11,080 --> 01:34:12,800
Speaker 5: a bad person if she did that, because then people

1642
01:34:12,800 --> 01:34:15,040
Speaker 5: would pull up her own tweet history and then she'd

1643
01:34:15,080 --> 01:34:17,280
Speaker 5: have to be canceled. It's like, no, I have to

1644
01:34:17,439 --> 01:34:21,000
Speaker 5: plan my death so that I can always win. I love,

1645
01:34:21,120 --> 01:34:25,880
Speaker 5: I understand Nick Dunn is a bad person. One of

1646
01:34:26,000 --> 01:34:30,879
Speaker 5: two hundred and fifty. Yeah, like like a notes app.

1647
01:34:33,120 --> 01:34:34,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I guess my.

1648
01:34:34,400 --> 01:34:36,400
Speaker 3: Like on this because it's like it's so funny we've

1649
01:34:36,400 --> 01:34:38,240
Speaker 3: put taking for almost two hours, and we've really only

1650
01:34:38,280 --> 01:34:41,920
Speaker 3: talked about the like controversy around Gone Girl and how

1651
01:34:41,960 --> 01:34:44,799
Speaker 3: it's like received. But like, I think that this movie's

1652
01:34:44,800 --> 01:34:47,920
Speaker 3: success does not mean that we shouldn't continue to get

1653
01:34:48,320 --> 01:34:53,360
Speaker 3: movies about more diverse women doing bad stuff. I want

1654
01:34:53,439 --> 01:34:55,920
Speaker 3: to see a movie about it, every kind of woman

1655
01:34:56,000 --> 01:34:59,680
Speaker 3: doing something horrible. And this movie is good, and we

1656
01:34:59,800 --> 01:35:02,600
Speaker 3: have a lot of other women in the story to

1657
01:35:03,400 --> 01:35:07,439
Speaker 3: bounce what's going on with Amy and Nick around. One

1658
01:35:07,520 --> 01:35:10,320
Speaker 3: thing that I thought didn't work as well for me

1659
01:35:10,439 --> 01:35:13,400
Speaker 3: in the context of the movie versus the book, because

1660
01:35:13,720 --> 01:35:17,320
Speaker 3: when we hear Nick and Amy talking about Andy in

1661
01:35:17,479 --> 01:35:20,920
Speaker 3: the book, they're talking about her, they're describing her to

1662
01:35:21,080 --> 01:35:23,439
Speaker 3: sound like kind of a I think that like she's

1663
01:35:23,560 --> 01:35:27,200
Speaker 3: she comes off in the movie as bimbo who is

1664
01:35:27,320 --> 01:35:30,160
Speaker 3: really naive because of her youth, because of all of

1665
01:35:30,200 --> 01:35:32,559
Speaker 3: this stuff. And I think that Emily Radakowski, who has

1666
01:35:33,479 --> 01:35:36,240
Speaker 3: gone on to have a whole career, including a book

1667
01:35:36,320 --> 01:35:39,400
Speaker 3: that I have not yet read, but that sort of

1668
01:35:39,520 --> 01:35:44,200
Speaker 3: addresses her personal history, being heavily objectified and thought of

1669
01:35:44,439 --> 01:35:47,439
Speaker 3: as a brainless bimbo. So if we have people who

1670
01:35:47,479 --> 01:35:49,479
Speaker 3: have read that, please let us know, but that is

1671
01:35:49,600 --> 01:35:52,479
Speaker 3: like who she's cast us here, She's in a prestige movie.

1672
01:35:52,840 --> 01:35:56,560
Speaker 3: I think that it's like the signifier of Emily Radikowski

1673
01:35:56,720 --> 01:35:59,719
Speaker 3: in twenty fourteen. We're not supposed to think she's smart.

1674
01:36:00,040 --> 01:36:03,519
Speaker 3: It's almost like a cultural signifier of how she was

1675
01:36:03,640 --> 01:36:05,479
Speaker 3: viewed at this time. And I don't think the movie

1676
01:36:05,520 --> 01:36:08,040
Speaker 3: does very much to challenge that. It just sort of

1677
01:36:08,160 --> 01:36:11,000
Speaker 3: does present to the point where Tyler Perry can anticipate

1678
01:36:11,080 --> 01:36:12,160
Speaker 3: what she is going to do.

1679
01:36:12,680 --> 01:36:13,760
Speaker 2: She is fully upon.

1680
01:36:14,320 --> 01:36:17,560
Speaker 3: She doesn't seem to have any sort of like I

1681
01:36:17,600 --> 01:36:20,400
Speaker 3: don't know. I think she was sort of uncritically presented

1682
01:36:20,600 --> 01:36:23,439
Speaker 3: as a brainless bimbo. And you do get moments where

1683
01:36:23,439 --> 01:36:27,000
Speaker 3: it's like, well, Nick is lying to her and that's

1684
01:36:27,080 --> 01:36:29,439
Speaker 3: obvious and we know that that's bad. And you know,

1685
01:36:29,600 --> 01:36:33,160
Speaker 3: Amy is outwardly misogynistic towards her when she's watching her

1686
01:36:33,240 --> 01:36:35,439
Speaker 3: on TV. But it also feels like there could have

1687
01:36:35,479 --> 01:36:40,120
Speaker 3: been a few small things done to make her more

1688
01:36:40,280 --> 01:36:42,040
Speaker 3: of a person.

1689
01:36:42,320 --> 01:36:42,640
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1690
01:36:42,680 --> 01:36:44,600
Speaker 3: I don't think she came off very sympathetic when she

1691
01:36:44,800 --> 01:36:49,280
Speaker 3: is like in a terrible situation, she fortunately, I mean,

1692
01:36:49,320 --> 01:36:51,120
Speaker 3: the only good thing is that she is an adult

1693
01:36:51,400 --> 01:36:56,160
Speaker 3: at the time of the relationship. But it's like she's right,

1694
01:36:56,320 --> 01:36:59,280
Speaker 3: she's like twenty if that, I don't think Margo even

1695
01:36:59,360 --> 01:37:03,400
Speaker 3: believes that she like you know, is still completely connected

1696
01:37:03,479 --> 01:37:06,599
Speaker 3: to her family. She's I like the detail that she's

1697
01:37:06,680 --> 01:37:09,600
Speaker 3: like godspell rehearsal. I was like, go with Godspell, Like

1698
01:37:09,920 --> 01:37:13,120
Speaker 3: go with that, get out of this relationship, go vi

1699
01:37:13,240 --> 01:37:16,320
Speaker 3: a godspell, forget this ever happened. But like it's another

1700
01:37:16,360 --> 01:37:18,320
Speaker 3: way that Nick is a shitty person. He's abusing this

1701
01:37:18,439 --> 01:37:21,360
Speaker 3: power dynamic. And I feel like the story she like

1702
01:37:21,479 --> 01:37:24,599
Speaker 3: symbolizes is like, oh, Nick wants to be with someone

1703
01:37:24,680 --> 01:37:27,160
Speaker 3: who's like being replaced by a younger woman and being

1704
01:37:27,200 --> 01:37:31,519
Speaker 3: replaced by someone who's quote unquote unchallenging. And it just

1705
01:37:31,560 --> 01:37:33,840
Speaker 3: felt like the movie kind of went with that logic

1706
01:37:33,920 --> 01:37:35,240
Speaker 3: in a way that it felt like there could have

1707
01:37:35,280 --> 01:37:39,639
Speaker 3: been little things done to push back on mm hmmm agree.

1708
01:37:39,680 --> 01:37:43,320
Speaker 4: I think the way that also it goes pretty unchallenged

1709
01:37:43,520 --> 01:37:48,920
Speaker 4: where Nick suggests that maybe the perpetrator of this kidnapping

1710
01:37:49,080 --> 01:37:53,639
Speaker 4: and violence toward his wife was an unhoused person because

1711
01:37:54,200 --> 01:37:58,439
Speaker 4: there's a quote unquote serious homeless problem that you cops

1712
01:37:58,520 --> 01:38:01,560
Speaker 4: should check out, and is just like shrug.

1713
01:38:01,800 --> 01:38:04,040
Speaker 3: Well, but also I saw that as well, and then

1714
01:38:04,080 --> 01:38:07,280
Speaker 3: I also was like, well, everyone he's surrounded by would

1715
01:38:07,400 --> 01:38:10,519
Speaker 3: not push back on that, Like that's true. He's surrounded

1716
01:38:10,600 --> 01:38:15,960
Speaker 3: by cops who certainly like wealthy white suburbanites, so right,

1717
01:38:16,080 --> 01:38:19,400
Speaker 3: he's like he's surrounded by Nimbi's It makes sense that, Yeah,

1718
01:38:19,840 --> 01:38:22,880
Speaker 3: no one is saying anything, but yeah, I didn't think

1719
01:38:22,920 --> 01:38:25,240
Speaker 3: that was the worst choice. But again, it's like there's

1720
01:38:25,280 --> 01:38:28,479
Speaker 3: stuff with privilege that is like it's all put out

1721
01:38:28,560 --> 01:38:31,600
Speaker 3: before you, but the viewer is very much left to

1722
01:38:31,720 --> 01:38:36,360
Speaker 3: their own devices to tease out when people are acting

1723
01:38:37,040 --> 01:38:39,400
Speaker 3: with their own bullshit privilege.

1724
01:38:39,520 --> 01:38:43,560
Speaker 4: Right, No characters around him, you know, push back on

1725
01:38:43,720 --> 01:38:46,439
Speaker 4: him saying that, But then the unhoused people you see

1726
01:38:46,520 --> 01:38:49,439
Speaker 4: on screen are like drug dealer.

1727
01:38:49,680 --> 01:38:49,800
Speaker 5: You know.

1728
01:38:49,920 --> 01:38:52,080
Speaker 4: It's just like the same way that it doesn't challenge

1729
01:38:52,280 --> 01:38:55,520
Speaker 4: the movie. Yes, frames Andy.

1730
01:38:55,880 --> 01:38:57,760
Speaker 5: It's giving three billboards.

1731
01:38:57,200 --> 01:39:01,840
Speaker 3: And that yes, right, and have Margo who princess You

1732
01:39:01,880 --> 01:39:05,120
Speaker 3: alluded to this earlier. I think like Margo is the

1733
01:39:05,240 --> 01:39:10,080
Speaker 3: closest thing we have to someone with their head on

1734
01:39:11,600 --> 01:39:14,760
Speaker 3: and like connected to their brain, and it's working.

1735
01:39:15,960 --> 01:39:17,519
Speaker 2: Well for the whole.

1736
01:39:17,400 --> 01:39:18,599
Speaker 5: Movie, which was nice.

1737
01:39:18,720 --> 01:39:20,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not I feel like you.

1738
01:39:20,320 --> 01:39:24,040
Speaker 3: Need Margo to like justify how you, as an audience

1739
01:39:24,120 --> 01:39:27,080
Speaker 3: member are feeling. And also like I thought it was

1740
01:39:27,280 --> 01:39:31,680
Speaker 3: she was well written in that, like she wants to

1741
01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:35,000
Speaker 3: believe her brother. It is reference that they are both

1742
01:39:35,120 --> 01:39:39,960
Speaker 3: still actively grieving at their mom. She doesn't like Amy,

1743
01:39:40,160 --> 01:39:42,840
Speaker 3: but also her not like she says it at one point,

1744
01:39:42,880 --> 01:39:44,960
Speaker 3: She's like, just because I didn't like spending time with

1745
01:39:45,040 --> 01:39:48,160
Speaker 3: Amy doesn't mean I wish you were dead, Like I

1746
01:39:48,240 --> 01:39:51,200
Speaker 3: think she has like a pretty reasoned take on stuff

1747
01:39:51,240 --> 01:39:54,559
Speaker 3: and is the one crucially I think princess you said earlier,

1748
01:39:54,680 --> 01:39:58,880
Speaker 3: like who is constantly like this relationship with Emily Radakowski

1749
01:39:59,080 --> 01:40:01,840
Speaker 3: is fucked up. This is fucked up what you were doing.

1750
01:40:01,960 --> 01:40:05,200
Speaker 3: It's creepy, It grows, it echoes things that your father

1751
01:40:05,400 --> 01:40:07,639
Speaker 3: did that hurt you, Like what the fuck is wrong

1752
01:40:07,720 --> 01:40:10,519
Speaker 3: with you? And you're having sex with her when the

1753
01:40:10,720 --> 01:40:13,240
Speaker 3: eyes of the world are on you, like you are

1754
01:40:13,360 --> 01:40:17,120
Speaker 3: out of your fucking mind? And yeah, yeah, I just

1755
01:40:17,320 --> 01:40:20,120
Speaker 3: like Margo. I guess that that's what I have to say.

1756
01:40:20,520 --> 01:40:23,760
Speaker 4: Same, I love her too, Same, I'm rooting for her.

1757
01:40:23,920 --> 01:40:28,000
Speaker 3: And the very like cynical ending where Tyler Perry, you know,

1758
01:40:28,240 --> 01:40:31,240
Speaker 3: like Billy Flynn he's like, well, I'm catching a playing

1759
01:40:31,320 --> 01:40:34,519
Speaker 3: out of here. Uh, and you know the cars pull away,

1760
01:40:34,560 --> 01:40:37,599
Speaker 3: which echoes Chicago to be it echoes Ititanya where it's

1761
01:40:37,680 --> 01:40:40,920
Speaker 3: like the caravan moves on. Your moment is over and

1762
01:40:41,040 --> 01:40:43,000
Speaker 3: now you have to live the rest of your life.

1763
01:40:43,800 --> 01:40:46,680
Speaker 3: And you know, Nick is like, well, what am I

1764
01:40:46,720 --> 01:40:48,280
Speaker 3: supposed to do? And he's like, I don't know, like

1765
01:40:48,960 --> 01:40:51,559
Speaker 3: get a book deal, do a lifetime movie and call

1766
01:40:51,640 --> 01:40:53,519
Speaker 3: it a day, which, unfortunately, I think is something we

1767
01:40:53,600 --> 01:40:56,479
Speaker 3: are watching play out in real time again right now

1768
01:40:56,560 --> 01:41:00,200
Speaker 3: with Gypsy Rose Blanchard. It's like, I think that it's

1769
01:41:00,240 --> 01:41:02,519
Speaker 3: important that movies like this exist, and I think it

1770
01:41:02,720 --> 01:41:07,479
Speaker 3: also shows that it doesn't change very much, Like there's

1771
01:41:07,760 --> 01:41:10,800
Speaker 3: very very little. I mean, the mediums change. This movie

1772
01:41:10,880 --> 01:41:15,000
Speaker 3: doesn't touch social media at all, but the grind and

1773
01:41:15,160 --> 01:41:18,280
Speaker 3: churning of like, well, capitalize on your moment and the spotlight,

1774
01:41:18,400 --> 01:41:22,200
Speaker 3: no matter how creepy or horrific it is, because people.

1775
01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:24,719
Speaker 2: Are going to move on and you're to be left behind.

1776
01:41:25,080 --> 01:41:28,160
Speaker 3: And yeah, I don't know, that's sort of That's the

1777
01:41:28,280 --> 01:41:32,040
Speaker 3: only thing in Amy's logic that I don't understand because

1778
01:41:32,040 --> 01:41:34,200
Speaker 3: I'm like Amy, the caravan moves on, and then he

1779
01:41:34,320 --> 01:41:40,920
Speaker 3: could probably quietly leave you at some point, right, But whatever, I.

1780
01:41:40,960 --> 01:41:43,240
Speaker 5: Think she's trusting that he's I think because again, we

1781
01:41:43,360 --> 01:41:45,400
Speaker 5: don't believe that ben Affleck is from the gray state

1782
01:41:45,439 --> 01:41:48,519
Speaker 5: of Missouri. But it's supposed to be this idea that

1783
01:41:48,600 --> 01:41:50,680
Speaker 5: he's so salt of the earthman that he'll just never

1784
01:41:50,840 --> 01:41:52,439
Speaker 5: leave his sheill that he'll be caught in. It's like

1785
01:41:52,520 --> 01:41:56,720
Speaker 5: very heteronormative, toxic bullshit, which is like, you know, the

1786
01:41:56,800 --> 01:42:00,720
Speaker 5: strengths are not okay, so it's possible. Doesn't think. There's

1787
01:42:00,720 --> 01:42:02,920
Speaker 5: so many things working in Amy's favor that are fucked up,

1788
01:42:02,960 --> 01:42:05,040
Speaker 5: and it's like the straight stop being okay is one

1789
01:42:05,080 --> 01:42:08,439
Speaker 5: of them. Why privilege is the other one. But Nick

1790
01:42:08,600 --> 01:42:11,200
Speaker 5: is one Reddit thread away from freedom, you know, just

1791
01:42:11,240 --> 01:42:12,439
Speaker 5: got to get the details together.

1792
01:42:14,120 --> 01:42:16,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, he has to make his own escape plan, which

1793
01:42:16,800 --> 01:42:19,920
Speaker 4: he's not nearly as capable of as Amy is. To

1794
01:42:20,040 --> 01:42:22,720
Speaker 4: go back to Margo really quick. I also really liked

1795
01:42:22,760 --> 01:42:25,400
Speaker 4: her and the fact that she was presented as this

1796
01:42:25,600 --> 01:42:29,240
Speaker 4: very you know, like observant, level headed person with a

1797
01:42:29,320 --> 01:42:32,759
Speaker 4: good brain. That worked, although there were a few times

1798
01:42:32,800 --> 01:42:35,680
Speaker 4: where I wish she actually pushed back against Nick a

1799
01:42:35,760 --> 01:42:40,680
Speaker 4: little more, where there's a scene where he's just been

1800
01:42:40,720 --> 01:42:46,519
Speaker 4: interrogated by Detective Bonie. Again the character's name is Detective Bonie.

1801
01:42:46,880 --> 01:42:49,320
Speaker 4: You know, he got an earfull from I think his

1802
01:42:49,520 --> 01:42:52,200
Speaker 4: mother in law. There's this like different He says something like,

1803
01:42:52,280 --> 01:42:55,040
Speaker 4: I'm so sick of being picked apart by women. Oh

1804
01:42:55,080 --> 01:43:00,920
Speaker 4: also because god, yeah, because Missy Pyle is in the yeah,

1805
01:43:01,600 --> 01:43:03,000
Speaker 4: as missus Nancy Grace.

1806
01:43:03,560 --> 01:43:03,760
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1807
01:43:03,960 --> 01:43:06,960
Speaker 4: Right, And then she's you know, like accusing him of

1808
01:43:07,080 --> 01:43:09,560
Speaker 4: murdering his wife on national television. So he's just like,

1809
01:43:09,760 --> 01:43:12,519
Speaker 4: I'm so tired of being picked apart by women. And

1810
01:43:12,920 --> 01:43:14,800
Speaker 4: he's like, I just need you to like listen to

1811
01:43:14,880 --> 01:43:17,559
Speaker 4: me and not judge me, Margo, and she's like, Okay,

1812
01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:19,840
Speaker 4: I will, And it's like, I don't know, Marco, you

1813
01:43:19,840 --> 01:43:23,160
Speaker 4: should keep questioning everything your brother does.

1814
01:43:23,720 --> 01:43:24,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know.

1815
01:43:24,400 --> 01:43:26,280
Speaker 3: I feel like the way that I was able to

1816
01:43:26,360 --> 01:43:30,200
Speaker 3: get into, like, as a clearly smart person, why is

1817
01:43:30,240 --> 01:43:34,160
Speaker 3: Margo sticky around? I feel like I'm defending Gilliam Flynn

1818
01:43:34,960 --> 01:43:37,560
Speaker 3: way more than I anticipated. But like the fact that

1819
01:43:38,000 --> 01:43:40,920
Speaker 3: Margo does not seem to have a lot of people

1820
01:43:41,120 --> 01:43:44,280
Speaker 3: in her life outside of her family. She's recently lost

1821
01:43:44,320 --> 01:43:49,280
Speaker 3: her mom, her dad is fading, and she quote unquote

1822
01:43:49,400 --> 01:43:52,040
Speaker 3: just got her brother back after he was in New

1823
01:43:52,120 --> 01:43:54,040
Speaker 3: York for years. I feel like she's doing a lot

1824
01:43:54,080 --> 01:43:58,719
Speaker 3: of mental gymnastics to preserve this relationship because she doesn't

1825
01:43:58,920 --> 01:44:02,360
Speaker 3: have many, But I don't know.

1826
01:44:02,400 --> 01:44:03,320
Speaker 2: That was just how I read it.

1827
01:44:03,960 --> 01:44:06,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I see that interpretation.

1828
01:44:06,200 --> 01:44:08,600
Speaker 3: Because he's also like he's being such an asshole. And

1829
01:44:08,760 --> 01:44:12,439
Speaker 3: it's interesting which moments she chooses and which she doesn't,

1830
01:44:12,479 --> 01:44:15,560
Speaker 3: because it also feels like her anger with the Emorta

1831
01:44:15,760 --> 01:44:19,639
Speaker 3: relationship is also motivated by the parallels that that shows

1832
01:44:19,760 --> 01:44:23,759
Speaker 3: with their parents, So that does feel like an attack

1833
01:44:23,880 --> 01:44:27,320
Speaker 3: on her as well in some ways, but other times

1834
01:44:27,360 --> 01:44:31,200
Speaker 3: she kind of rolls over for him, and heways bold

1835
01:44:31,240 --> 01:44:33,240
Speaker 3: of Missy Pyle to be like, I think the twins

1836
01:44:33,280 --> 01:44:34,120
Speaker 3: are having sex.

1837
01:44:34,320 --> 01:44:40,599
Speaker 5: Really, I know whoa whoa, And someone said sol recent

1838
01:44:40,680 --> 01:44:42,560
Speaker 5: like twin sess and then I was like, oh my

1839
01:44:42,720 --> 01:44:45,400
Speaker 5: god's and.

1840
01:44:45,640 --> 01:44:48,960
Speaker 3: Adding the little detail that I feel like is reflective

1841
01:44:49,000 --> 01:44:52,439
Speaker 3: of reality based on the Gone Girl in Vallejo incident,

1842
01:44:53,120 --> 01:44:55,120
Speaker 3: is that like one.

1843
01:44:55,040 --> 01:44:57,120
Speaker 2: Of the cops, which was who he was?

1844
01:44:57,200 --> 01:44:59,240
Speaker 3: Who and what almost famous kid?

1845
01:44:59,640 --> 01:45:01,920
Speaker 4: Oh fugit?

1846
01:45:02,120 --> 01:45:07,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, Officer almost Famous is watching Nancy Grace consistently and

1847
01:45:07,360 --> 01:45:11,160
Speaker 3: his investigation is informed by what she's peddling, and so

1848
01:45:11,439 --> 01:45:14,080
Speaker 3: it's like this horrible circle.

1849
01:45:14,040 --> 01:45:16,479
Speaker 2: That it just felt like that was like a little detail.

1850
01:45:16,640 --> 01:45:20,960
Speaker 3: That was a really smart comment on how you know,

1851
01:45:21,200 --> 01:45:26,240
Speaker 3: media and oppressive police forces are often just working.

1852
01:45:26,000 --> 01:45:28,519
Speaker 2: Hand in hand to get it wrong.

1853
01:45:29,280 --> 01:45:29,559
Speaker 4: True.

1854
01:45:30,240 --> 01:45:32,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I loved how the female officer always had

1855
01:45:33,000 --> 01:45:36,679
Speaker 5: something to drink in her hand. I love a hydrated woman.

1856
01:45:37,040 --> 01:45:37,559
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.

1857
01:45:37,800 --> 01:45:40,280
Speaker 3: Yes, I had a list of this MOVIEE had really

1858
01:45:40,640 --> 01:45:46,080
Speaker 3: good product placement. We saw diet coke, we saw aspirin

1859
01:45:46,160 --> 01:45:50,720
Speaker 3: from CBS. We saw a king sized KitKat as a

1860
01:45:50,840 --> 01:45:54,599
Speaker 3: sign of liberation. She's when she's doing the cool girl speech,

1861
01:45:54,600 --> 01:45:56,000
Speaker 3: she's eating a king sized kit cat.

1862
01:45:56,720 --> 01:46:00,519
Speaker 4: And the implication that she's deliberately trying to like gain

1863
01:46:01,080 --> 01:46:04,000
Speaker 4: weight to make her more unrecognizable because you see her

1864
01:46:04,120 --> 01:46:08,080
Speaker 4: eat like a burger and a bunch of like drink

1865
01:46:08,200 --> 01:46:10,719
Speaker 4: soda and eat the yell like candy bars and stuff

1866
01:46:10,720 --> 01:46:10,840
Speaker 4: like that.

1867
01:46:10,920 --> 01:46:12,320
Speaker 5: I think it's I think it's supposed to be like,

1868
01:46:12,360 --> 01:46:14,200
Speaker 5: doesn't care about her weight anywere, because she talks about

1869
01:46:14,280 --> 01:46:16,559
Speaker 5: like you're supposed to like eat hot dogs, but say

1870
01:46:16,560 --> 01:46:19,040
Speaker 5: a size too. So I think she's like, He's like,

1871
01:46:19,240 --> 01:46:21,840
Speaker 5: and now I'm gonna eat every single kit cat that

1872
01:46:21,920 --> 01:46:24,080
Speaker 5: I didn't eat for five years of my marriage.

1873
01:46:24,160 --> 01:46:27,320
Speaker 3: Right, it was like straights for not a and and

1874
01:46:27,600 --> 01:46:30,800
Speaker 3: that like that's commented on later where I mean, if

1875
01:46:30,840 --> 01:46:32,160
Speaker 3: we haven't really talked about it very much. But the

1876
01:46:32,240 --> 01:46:34,640
Speaker 3: Neil Patrick Harris character, you know, did he deserve to

1877
01:46:34,680 --> 01:46:38,160
Speaker 3: be murdered? No? What is true about what we've been

1878
01:46:38,200 --> 01:46:40,679
Speaker 3: told about him when we meet him? I'm not sure

1879
01:46:41,160 --> 01:46:43,560
Speaker 3: what we know about him is that he is a

1880
01:46:43,720 --> 01:46:46,960
Speaker 3: very controlling person. Because when he meets her again and

1881
01:46:47,200 --> 01:46:49,519
Speaker 3: you know, sort of takes her back, like quote unquote,

1882
01:46:49,560 --> 01:46:52,519
Speaker 3: he thinks he's taking her back when she's asking for

1883
01:46:52,680 --> 01:46:56,240
Speaker 3: help and he says to her like, I need you

1884
01:46:56,360 --> 01:46:58,479
Speaker 3: to be you again, And he's like I need you

1885
01:46:58,560 --> 01:47:01,960
Speaker 3: to be cool girl again, because he's like, there's gym upstairs, lady.

1886
01:47:02,240 --> 01:47:05,920
Speaker 4: He buys your hairy yeah yeah clothes. And then yeah,

1887
01:47:05,960 --> 01:47:08,639
Speaker 4: when you see her a couple of weeks later, she's

1888
01:47:09,280 --> 01:47:13,960
Speaker 4: you know, blonde makeup on, you know, slim figure, et cetera.

1889
01:47:14,400 --> 01:47:16,360
Speaker 3: You know, I can't say I was sorry to see

1890
01:47:16,439 --> 01:47:19,240
Speaker 3: him go, and like and then and Neil Patrick Carris

1891
01:47:19,320 --> 01:47:21,200
Speaker 3: is really good. But I just want to quickly shout

1892
01:47:21,200 --> 01:47:24,479
Speaker 3: out there is Duncan Spawn, which I feel like Ben

1893
01:47:24,520 --> 01:47:28,559
Speaker 3: Affleck probably insisted on. It's it's Officer Bone or Detective

1894
01:47:28,600 --> 01:47:31,559
Speaker 3: Bonie who's drinking a large She's holding out a large

1895
01:47:31,600 --> 01:47:35,040
Speaker 3: styrophone dunks cup at the beginning of the movie, which

1896
01:47:35,160 --> 01:47:37,920
Speaker 3: I think, again, I'm like, you're not in Missouri, You're

1897
01:47:38,000 --> 01:47:41,679
Speaker 3: just not. You are in the suburbs of Boston, admitted.

1898
01:47:41,960 --> 01:47:44,519
Speaker 3: Is this the movie that Ben Affleck refused to wear a.

1899
01:47:46,240 --> 01:47:47,479
Speaker 2: Hat for? Okay, it is.

1900
01:47:47,680 --> 01:47:49,760
Speaker 5: I love that everyone makes fun of him for that,

1901
01:47:50,000 --> 01:47:51,960
Speaker 5: But as a New Yorker, I would never wear a

1902
01:47:52,000 --> 01:47:54,160
Speaker 5: Boston Red Sox hat. I would insist on it being

1903
01:47:54,240 --> 01:47:54,800
Speaker 5: something else.

1904
01:47:55,040 --> 01:47:59,240
Speaker 3: Well, and he also, I mean, Ben Affleck knows his audience.

1905
01:47:59,720 --> 01:48:02,479
Speaker 3: But okay, I'm sorry, I just wanted to revisit this

1906
01:48:03,040 --> 01:48:06,320
Speaker 3: because it's such a weird anecdote about this very serious movie.

1907
01:48:06,800 --> 01:48:09,759
Speaker 3: Ben afflex refusal. Okay, I'm pulling this from the Things

1908
01:48:09,840 --> 01:48:13,920
Speaker 3: dot com. Ben Afflex refusals to wear the Yankees hat

1909
01:48:14,000 --> 01:48:16,400
Speaker 3: for the film Gone Girl did shut down the production

1910
01:48:16,680 --> 01:48:17,719
Speaker 3: for four days.

1911
01:48:18,680 --> 01:48:20,480
Speaker 2: What that's obscene.

1912
01:48:20,720 --> 01:48:22,120
Speaker 4: That's ridiculous.

1913
01:48:22,520 --> 01:48:24,799
Speaker 3: Wait, okay, I know why he refused.

1914
01:48:24,880 --> 01:48:25,320
Speaker 2: Why did it?

1915
01:48:25,720 --> 01:48:29,120
Speaker 3: Okay, Ben Affleck says in an interview with The Times,

1916
01:48:29,840 --> 01:48:32,080
Speaker 3: I said, David, I love you, I would do anything

1917
01:48:32,120 --> 01:48:34,120
Speaker 3: for you, but I will not wear a Yankees hat.

1918
01:48:34,439 --> 01:48:35,280
Speaker 2: I just can't.

1919
01:48:35,640 --> 01:48:38,120
Speaker 3: I can't wear it because it's going to become a thing. David,

1920
01:48:38,439 --> 01:48:40,559
Speaker 3: I will never hear the end of it. I can't

1921
01:48:40,600 --> 01:48:40,840
Speaker 3: do it.

1922
01:48:41,160 --> 01:48:43,880
Speaker 2: And I couldn't put that hat on my head.

1923
01:48:44,479 --> 01:48:48,760
Speaker 3: And it's down production for four days. So okay, So

1924
01:48:49,640 --> 01:48:52,439
Speaker 3: Ben and David are in an argument. Now they stop

1925
01:48:52,640 --> 01:48:56,559
Speaker 3: talking to each other. So it's because the boys were fighting.

1926
01:48:57,080 --> 01:49:02,400
Speaker 5: Man, no straw, no wonder they run the country are

1927
01:49:02,680 --> 01:49:04,000
Speaker 5: the most broken.

1928
01:49:04,640 --> 01:49:07,479
Speaker 3: I can't believe that, because I was like, did they

1929
01:49:07,520 --> 01:49:09,519
Speaker 3: shoot it with the Yankees cat on that they had

1930
01:49:09,560 --> 01:49:11,960
Speaker 3: to reshoot it? No, the boys were just fighting, and

1931
01:49:12,040 --> 01:49:15,200
Speaker 3: so no one could work for four days because you

1932
01:49:15,280 --> 01:49:20,800
Speaker 3: were like rare. Men are amazing leaders of the free world.

1933
01:49:22,040 --> 01:49:27,040
Speaker 4: They're awesome. Millions of dollars while we're sharing a few

1934
01:49:27,520 --> 01:49:32,280
Speaker 4: fun little tidbits like that shout out to the orange

1935
01:49:32,360 --> 01:49:36,000
Speaker 4: cat that is the chillist cat in the world should

1936
01:49:36,040 --> 01:49:37,360
Speaker 4: have been the star of the movie. As far as

1937
01:49:37,360 --> 01:49:39,560
Speaker 4: I'm concerned, I think that's good. They were clearly not

1938
01:49:39,720 --> 01:49:42,439
Speaker 4: dog people. They were cat people through and through Yeah,

1939
01:49:42,880 --> 01:49:43,760
Speaker 4: I say that would love.

1940
01:49:45,720 --> 01:49:47,360
Speaker 2: One of Amy's.

1941
01:49:46,960 --> 01:49:50,120
Speaker 4: Anniversary clues that we see in a flashback is a

1942
01:49:50,280 --> 01:49:54,240
Speaker 4: Pride and Prejudice reference, specifically a reference to Jane Bennett

1943
01:49:54,439 --> 01:49:57,519
Speaker 4: guess who played Jane in Pride Prejudice two thousand and five.

1944
01:49:59,320 --> 01:50:01,760
Speaker 3: That that's wonderful.

1945
01:50:02,439 --> 01:50:06,960
Speaker 4: I love, and then a big barf peepe pooh pooh

1946
01:50:07,040 --> 01:50:10,240
Speaker 4: to the line where Nick tells Amy that she has

1947
01:50:10,280 --> 01:50:13,200
Speaker 4: a quote unquote world class vagina.

1948
01:50:13,960 --> 01:50:16,800
Speaker 3: In front of the press, in front of a bunch

1949
01:50:16,800 --> 01:50:18,720
Speaker 3: of journalists like seventh journalists.

1950
01:50:19,080 --> 01:50:21,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh god, I know.

1951
01:50:21,920 --> 01:50:23,960
Speaker 3: I kept going back and forth with like, because that

1952
01:50:24,040 --> 01:50:26,360
Speaker 3: proposal was also invented for the movie.

1953
01:50:26,760 --> 01:50:28,519
Speaker 2: And I was like, because I was like, would I

1954
01:50:28,640 --> 01:50:30,160
Speaker 2: like that? Would No? I would not like that.

1955
01:50:31,439 --> 01:50:34,840
Speaker 3: But look, I'm open to being told I have a

1956
01:50:34,880 --> 01:50:37,560
Speaker 3: world class vagina, but like in private.

1957
01:50:37,720 --> 01:50:40,439
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, or in a good roast, you know, like

1958
01:50:40,640 --> 01:50:42,200
Speaker 5: where it's where it's fitting.

1959
01:50:42,600 --> 01:50:43,680
Speaker 2: No, I agree with you.

1960
01:50:43,800 --> 01:50:45,439
Speaker 5: Jab. It was one of those moments where like I

1961
01:50:45,840 --> 01:50:49,840
Speaker 5: am so weak that I was like, oh yes, and

1962
01:50:49,920 --> 01:50:51,360
Speaker 5: I was like, oh wait, no, I forgot how the

1963
01:50:51,400 --> 01:50:52,160
Speaker 5: rest of this movie.

1964
01:50:54,880 --> 01:50:58,759
Speaker 3: Because again that's like Nick taking control of the narrative

1965
01:50:59,000 --> 01:51:01,960
Speaker 3: and like Amy is left to I mean, and she's

1966
01:51:02,000 --> 01:51:05,280
Speaker 3: happy about it, But I don't know. It's interesting. I

1967
01:51:05,479 --> 01:51:08,040
Speaker 3: was like, did Rasamund Pike, who narrated the Gone Girl

1968
01:51:08,080 --> 01:51:11,400
Speaker 3: audiobook this is for on my own time? Does anyone

1969
01:51:11,439 --> 01:51:14,160
Speaker 3: else have anything else they would like to discuss about.

1970
01:51:13,960 --> 01:51:18,040
Speaker 2: The movie Gone Girl? No, I'm good, I'm tapped out.

1971
01:51:18,160 --> 01:51:19,840
Speaker 5: I think I'm so, I'm Gone Girl.

1972
01:51:20,439 --> 01:51:23,599
Speaker 3: I'm I was here a woman now I'm Gone Girl.

1973
01:51:23,960 --> 01:51:27,679
Speaker 3: So does this movie pass the Bechdel test?

1974
01:51:28,120 --> 01:51:28,360
Speaker 2: Yes?

1975
01:51:29,240 --> 01:51:34,120
Speaker 3: He does a couple different ways. I'd be I honestly

1976
01:51:34,240 --> 01:51:37,200
Speaker 3: wasn't keeping super close tabs on it, which just shows

1977
01:51:37,240 --> 01:51:38,800
Speaker 3: how little that has to do with what the show

1978
01:51:38,880 --> 01:51:41,679
Speaker 3: is about at this point. But Marco and the detective

1979
01:51:41,760 --> 01:51:44,880
Speaker 3: speak many times we have what are we having?

1980
01:51:44,960 --> 01:51:45,679
Speaker 4: Amy and Greta?

1981
01:51:46,600 --> 01:51:50,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think those are probably the primary two dynamics

1982
01:51:50,200 --> 01:51:54,439
Speaker 3: that we have, Amy and Missy Pyle Nancy Grace, Like

1983
01:51:54,560 --> 01:51:57,920
Speaker 3: there's there are I don't. I just don't care about

1984
01:51:57,920 --> 01:51:59,760
Speaker 3: it for this one. Yeah, it doesn't seem very pro

1985
01:52:00,080 --> 01:52:03,599
Speaker 3: But what about our metric, Well, you mean the nipple scale,

1986
01:52:03,600 --> 01:52:06,800
Speaker 3: our scale where we rate the movie zero to five

1987
01:52:06,960 --> 01:52:11,080
Speaker 3: nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens.

1988
01:52:11,680 --> 01:52:11,880
Speaker 2: Yes.

1989
01:52:12,760 --> 01:52:14,920
Speaker 4: Wow, this is a tricky one because, as we've said,

1990
01:52:14,960 --> 01:52:19,639
Speaker 4: it's not like a feminist movie or like a movie

1991
01:52:19,840 --> 01:52:25,000
Speaker 4: that feels especially empowering for women. But it is I

1992
01:52:25,040 --> 01:52:27,439
Speaker 4: guess feminist in the sense that it shows a female

1993
01:52:27,520 --> 01:52:36,160
Speaker 4: character that is a bad person, and it presents that unapologetically.

1994
01:52:37,120 --> 01:52:42,000
Speaker 4: And as Gillian Flynn has said, like, feminism isn't just

1995
01:52:42,760 --> 01:52:45,960
Speaker 4: girl power girl boss like woo, who you go girl?

1996
01:52:46,600 --> 01:52:53,439
Speaker 4: It is acknowledging women and fems as fully formed people

1997
01:52:53,640 --> 01:53:00,360
Speaker 4: who are capable of everything. And so that's the big

1998
01:53:00,479 --> 01:53:04,519
Speaker 4: thing to appreciate about this movie for me, and I

1999
01:53:04,600 --> 01:53:07,600
Speaker 4: also appreciate and not to hand it to a male filmmaker,

2000
01:53:08,040 --> 01:53:12,040
Speaker 4: but I do appreciate that, you know, Gillian Flynn was

2001
01:53:12,120 --> 01:53:16,040
Speaker 4: brought on to write the first draft of the script,

2002
01:53:16,280 --> 01:53:20,639
Speaker 4: and generally, when that happens, it's understood that a professional

2003
01:53:20,720 --> 01:53:24,760
Speaker 4: screenwriter will then come on and rewrite the script and

2004
01:53:25,320 --> 01:53:29,519
Speaker 4: the you know, person who's the major creative voice behind

2005
01:53:30,160 --> 01:53:35,360
Speaker 4: the story won't have much creative autonomy after that kind

2006
01:53:35,360 --> 01:53:36,080
Speaker 4: of first draft.

2007
01:53:36,240 --> 01:53:39,240
Speaker 3: But which we've seen, I think the ones that hit

2008
01:53:39,320 --> 01:53:40,680
Speaker 3: for me on the off the top of my head

2009
01:53:40,720 --> 01:53:44,479
Speaker 3: where it's like stories allegedly about women that are swept

2010
01:53:44,600 --> 01:53:48,200
Speaker 3: out from under a woman showrunners. Two HBO shows it

2011
01:53:48,320 --> 01:53:51,200
Speaker 3: was like Big Little I Season two and The Idol

2012
01:53:51,240 --> 01:53:54,960
Speaker 3: were both iragially like written and run by women. And

2013
01:53:55,040 --> 01:53:57,200
Speaker 3: then at some point in the production the big man

2014
01:53:57,280 --> 01:53:59,960
Speaker 3: in charge came in and was like, allow me, I've

2015
01:54:00,160 --> 01:54:02,920
Speaker 3: got this, And what did those two things produce? Two

2016
01:54:03,080 --> 01:54:05,559
Speaker 3: horrible seasons of television? That's total craps.

2017
01:54:05,960 --> 01:54:10,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so but Gillen Flynn stayed on board the

2018
01:54:11,000 --> 01:54:13,600
Speaker 4: whole time. You know, Fincher was like, you've done a

2019
01:54:13,640 --> 01:54:16,920
Speaker 4: great job, and he, by her account, seemed like he

2020
01:54:17,040 --> 01:54:22,960
Speaker 4: respected her vision and was very encouraging of her writing

2021
01:54:23,000 --> 01:54:27,519
Speaker 4: and her writing process and the various drafts that she wrote.

2022
01:54:27,680 --> 01:54:30,559
Speaker 3: So I just don't cross him about the hat. Don't

2023
01:54:30,640 --> 01:54:31,080
Speaker 3: cross this.

2024
01:54:31,640 --> 01:54:35,760
Speaker 4: He won't talk to you for four days. Yeah, mad, absurd,

2025
01:54:36,600 --> 01:54:40,080
Speaker 4: But yeah, I don't know. I appreciate that it examines,

2026
01:54:40,200 --> 01:54:44,760
Speaker 4: not super explicitly or closely sort of the like it

2027
01:54:44,840 --> 01:54:49,080
Speaker 4: does examine like the media frenzy, uh when white woman

2028
01:54:49,400 --> 01:54:54,400
Speaker 4: goes missing and is presumed dead and murdered. But you know,

2029
01:54:54,800 --> 01:54:56,680
Speaker 4: I guess there are just there are other movies who

2030
01:54:56,720 --> 01:54:59,600
Speaker 4: actually examined that more closely. From a like, Hey, why

2031
01:54:59,760 --> 01:55:02,040
Speaker 4: is the though? Why are we so obsessed as a

2032
01:55:02,120 --> 01:55:05,760
Speaker 4: society when a beautiful, rich white woman goes missing and

2033
01:55:05,880 --> 01:55:10,320
Speaker 4: we care so little when pretty much anyone else is

2034
01:55:10,680 --> 01:55:13,200
Speaker 4: presumed to be murdered? Kind of thing? But you know,

2035
01:55:13,280 --> 01:55:14,640
Speaker 4: it does present that to some extent.

2036
01:55:14,960 --> 01:55:16,080
Speaker 2: And I don't know.

2037
01:55:16,600 --> 01:55:18,680
Speaker 4: I don't know what to give this as far as

2038
01:55:18,720 --> 01:55:22,160
Speaker 4: the nipple rating goes, though, I know so it almost

2039
01:55:22,240 --> 01:55:23,440
Speaker 4: doesn't feel I.

2040
01:55:23,520 --> 01:55:24,520
Speaker 3: Must want to abstain.

2041
01:55:24,720 --> 01:55:27,480
Speaker 2: I'm like, I know, I don't know. I don't know.

2042
01:55:28,120 --> 01:55:33,680
Speaker 4: Can I pass? I'll give it look the cat, Yes,

2043
01:55:33,880 --> 01:55:37,520
Speaker 4: I'll give it one cat, one orange cat.

2044
01:55:38,280 --> 01:55:40,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't really know. Uh, I feel like we

2045
01:55:40,800 --> 01:55:41,480
Speaker 2: should try.

2046
01:55:41,600 --> 01:55:44,160
Speaker 3: I don't know, Princess, do you have a rating in mind?

2047
01:55:44,880 --> 01:55:47,000
Speaker 5: I'm gonna roll this D six and see what I

2048
01:55:47,200 --> 01:55:49,920
Speaker 5: can and see what it says. What do the gods

2049
01:55:50,000 --> 01:55:52,200
Speaker 5: think we should give this movie? Three nipples?

2050
01:55:52,840 --> 01:55:53,240
Speaker 2: Okay?

2051
01:55:53,560 --> 01:55:55,720
Speaker 5: I would say three and a half nipples sounds fair

2052
01:55:55,720 --> 01:55:58,120
Speaker 5: because I think that if I had a critique it

2053
01:55:58,280 --> 01:56:02,240
Speaker 5: as a film, I do think that it goes on

2054
01:56:02,480 --> 01:56:05,160
Speaker 5: a wee bit longer. I feel like after she arrives

2055
01:56:05,560 --> 01:56:07,120
Speaker 5: and I'm like, there's thirty more? Oh?

2056
01:56:07,160 --> 01:56:08,160
Speaker 4: Was it thirty more minutes.

2057
01:56:08,200 --> 01:56:09,000
Speaker 5: What are we doing here?

2058
01:56:09,480 --> 01:56:11,560
Speaker 2: I was like, Yeah, it did drag a little bit.

2059
01:56:11,600 --> 01:56:14,960
Speaker 5: And I do think that even though I understand it's

2060
01:56:15,040 --> 01:56:17,520
Speaker 5: use of it, the aggressive use of fade to black,

2061
01:56:19,680 --> 01:56:22,400
Speaker 5: it reminded me of in The Phantom Monace, where literally

2062
01:56:22,720 --> 01:56:26,720
Speaker 5: Lucas uses every transition in Windows Media Maker, like swipe

2063
01:56:26,720 --> 01:56:29,720
Speaker 5: this way, swipe that way. So for those two things,

2064
01:56:30,440 --> 01:56:33,640
Speaker 5: and I also think that while it's a very very

2065
01:56:33,680 --> 01:56:36,920
Speaker 5: good adaptation, I do agree with what Jamie said, it's

2066
01:56:36,920 --> 01:56:40,840
Speaker 5: a little extra missing that I think adds a little

2067
01:56:40,880 --> 01:56:43,840
Speaker 5: bit more nuanced to it, beyond the male anxiety. And

2068
01:56:44,000 --> 01:56:46,520
Speaker 5: for that, I will say three and a half nipples

2069
01:56:47,080 --> 01:56:51,040
Speaker 5: closed for but not quite Okay, Yeah, I was like

2070
01:56:51,640 --> 01:56:52,800
Speaker 5: three three and a half.

2071
01:56:53,000 --> 01:56:56,520
Speaker 3: I understand, like, and this doesn't account against the movie,

2072
01:56:56,600 --> 01:56:59,120
Speaker 3: but a lot of people go to see this movie

2073
01:56:59,200 --> 01:57:01,200
Speaker 3: and they take away the wrong message. That is not

2074
01:57:01,320 --> 01:57:03,879
Speaker 3: a fault of the movie, but it feels so present

2075
01:57:04,040 --> 01:57:07,640
Speaker 3: to the ugh twenty fourteen was a fucking time.

2076
01:57:08,280 --> 01:57:09,800
Speaker 2: But I think that this movie does.

2077
01:57:11,800 --> 01:57:12,240
Speaker 5: I don't know.

2078
01:57:12,280 --> 01:57:15,120
Speaker 3: I mean, we shouldn't be afraid to acknowledge that women

2079
01:57:15,200 --> 01:57:19,879
Speaker 3: abusers exist in the world, and Amy is an incredibly

2080
01:57:20,000 --> 01:57:23,640
Speaker 3: cathartic character to watch, but she's still an abuse it.

2081
01:57:23,680 --> 01:57:26,240
Speaker 3: There's all of these like two to five things need

2082
01:57:26,320 --> 01:57:28,600
Speaker 3: to be true for you to engage with this movie,

2083
01:57:28,880 --> 01:57:29,920
Speaker 3: and that's also true.

2084
01:57:29,760 --> 01:57:31,400
Speaker 2: Of the world. I think it's well done.

2085
01:57:31,600 --> 01:57:34,320
Speaker 3: I love that it's written and adapted by the same person,

2086
01:57:34,360 --> 01:57:37,600
Speaker 3: and there's a very singular vision. The performances are amazing.

2087
01:57:38,440 --> 01:57:41,320
Speaker 3: It is obviously it takes place in a very myopic,

2088
01:57:41,440 --> 01:57:43,200
Speaker 3: white privileged world.

2089
01:57:43,920 --> 01:57:44,880
Speaker 2: I don't fucking know.

2090
01:57:45,040 --> 01:57:48,760
Speaker 3: I'm going three three. I give it one to Gilliam Flynn,

2091
01:57:49,040 --> 01:57:51,720
Speaker 3: I give it one to Rosamund Pike, and give it

2092
01:57:51,760 --> 01:57:52,360
Speaker 3: one to.

2093
01:57:55,080 --> 01:57:56,200
Speaker 4: The cat Nice.

2094
01:57:56,480 --> 01:57:57,600
Speaker 2: No, the Yankees hat?

2095
01:57:58,120 --> 01:58:02,080
Speaker 4: Oh what hat? Does he end up wearing it with

2096
01:58:02,240 --> 01:58:04,200
Speaker 4: some other Oh? Oh a Mets? Oh?

2097
01:58:04,280 --> 01:58:06,880
Speaker 2: Still a New York team though, Yeah, it's because it's

2098
01:58:06,960 --> 01:58:08,320
Speaker 2: the Yankees and the Red House have.

2099
01:58:08,400 --> 01:58:11,600
Speaker 4: A more okay, yeah, oh my god sports rivalry.

2100
01:58:11,680 --> 01:58:11,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2101
01:58:11,920 --> 01:58:12,960
Speaker 2: I mean, he wasn't wrong.

2102
01:58:13,160 --> 01:58:15,360
Speaker 3: I feel like David Fincher's being the weird one for

2103
01:58:15,760 --> 01:58:18,240
Speaker 3: having a hissy fit about it for four days. I

2104
01:58:18,320 --> 01:58:19,520
Speaker 3: think that that's the weirder thing.

2105
01:58:19,680 --> 01:58:23,200
Speaker 2: Just they are like twelve New York teams. You don't

2106
01:58:23,240 --> 01:58:23,880
Speaker 2: need it to be the.

2107
01:58:23,920 --> 01:58:26,720
Speaker 3: Yankee if it was any other actor saying I can't

2108
01:58:26,760 --> 01:58:30,000
Speaker 3: wear a Yankees hat, but like Ben Affleck is the

2109
01:58:30,040 --> 01:58:33,600
Speaker 3: one that could. That's like, I think sophisticated dvaing on

2110
01:58:33,760 --> 01:58:37,720
Speaker 3: his part, or just put him in a Missouri team hat.

2111
01:58:38,360 --> 01:58:42,240
Speaker 3: Saint Louis. There's gotta be teams Cardinals.

2112
01:58:42,320 --> 01:58:42,640
Speaker 5: I think.

2113
01:58:43,080 --> 01:58:44,440
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm a sporty.

2114
01:58:45,080 --> 01:58:48,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're cool girls sports.

2115
01:58:48,680 --> 01:58:51,840
Speaker 3: I et hot dogs and I know I drink beer,

2116
01:58:52,120 --> 01:58:54,600
Speaker 3: and I watched the game I did Kitly you saw

2117
01:58:54,640 --> 01:58:55,760
Speaker 3: me drink a beer last night.

2118
01:58:56,000 --> 01:58:56,520
Speaker 5: It's true.

2119
01:58:56,840 --> 01:58:59,240
Speaker 2: I'm not like Wow, I'm not like them whatever.

2120
01:58:59,600 --> 01:59:01,280
Speaker 5: You wrote the book on hot dogs, so you really

2121
01:59:01,360 --> 01:59:03,960
Speaker 5: are like the apex cool girl. Die?

2122
01:59:04,240 --> 01:59:04,960
Speaker 2: What does that mean?

2123
01:59:05,320 --> 01:59:07,440
Speaker 3: Give me five years, I'm gonna kill somebody.

2124
01:59:10,480 --> 01:59:14,160
Speaker 4: Oh right, well, I guess if for anyone who's counting

2125
01:59:14,280 --> 01:59:17,640
Speaker 4: or updating our Wikipedia, I'll also give it three nipples

2126
01:59:17,720 --> 01:59:20,240
Speaker 4: and they're all going to the cat Princess. Thank you

2127
01:59:20,400 --> 01:59:24,680
Speaker 4: so much for thank you so much. Where can people

2128
01:59:24,960 --> 01:59:28,040
Speaker 4: check out your work, follow you online?

2129
01:59:28,320 --> 01:59:31,520
Speaker 5: Etc? Oh my gosh. Well, first of all, thank you

2130
01:59:31,680 --> 01:59:33,720
Speaker 5: so much for having me. Is always a pleasure to

2131
01:59:33,760 --> 01:59:37,600
Speaker 5: talk to you, beautiful, beautiful humans. You can find me

2132
01:59:38,160 --> 01:59:42,440
Speaker 5: on YouTube at Princess Weeks. I do YouTube videos about

2133
01:59:42,840 --> 01:59:45,000
Speaker 5: all kinds of pop culture stuff. By the time this

2134
01:59:45,280 --> 01:59:48,440
Speaker 5: podcast goes up, there'll be a video about how South

2135
01:59:48,520 --> 01:59:52,000
Speaker 5: Park accidentally had a really good case study about what

2136
01:59:52,200 --> 01:59:56,320
Speaker 5: mutual abuse is and is not, and I was just like, Wow,

2137
01:59:56,600 --> 01:59:58,320
Speaker 5: why watch the lat of south Park for that? You

2138
01:59:58,400 --> 02:00:01,520
Speaker 5: can find me there. I'm also on TikTok under I

2139
02:00:01,560 --> 02:00:04,000
Speaker 5: think it's just my same name, Princess Weeks, where I

2140
02:00:04,520 --> 02:00:06,920
Speaker 5: just talk about all the shows I'm watching and all

2141
02:00:07,040 --> 02:00:11,200
Speaker 5: the people that I think are attractive. Very simple, elegant.

2142
02:00:11,240 --> 02:00:15,440
Speaker 5: It work, yes, hashtag content, hashtag content.

2143
02:00:15,720 --> 02:00:19,000
Speaker 3: I'm gonna quickly plug my letterboxed account, which I made

2144
02:00:19,040 --> 02:00:24,840
Speaker 3: two days ago. It's My username is Jamie Alert and

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Speaker 3: you can follow me there.

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Speaker 5: I've been.

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Speaker 3: I was avoiding it because I was like, I don't

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Speaker 3: want another thing to check, But in a moment of weakness,

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Speaker 3: I decided I do want another thing to check. So

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Speaker 3: follow me on the thing and I'll check it, you know.

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Speaker 4: While you're at it. Follow me on letterbox. I think

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Speaker 4: my username is just Caitlin Durante.

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Speaker 5: And letter box you can follow the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 3: The Damn Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 4: We got all kinds of lists of the box there

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02:00:53,320 --> 02:00:58,520
Speaker 4: and you can also follow us on mostly Instagram, kind

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Speaker 4: of Twitter, at Bechdel Cast and our Matreon.

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Speaker 2: The most important.

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Speaker 4: Place to go it is our Patreon where you get

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Speaker 4: two bonus episodes every month plus access to the back catalog.

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Speaker 4: It's five dollars a month and it's at patreon dot

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Speaker 4: com slash Bechtel Cast.

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Speaker 3: And with that you can get our merch at tebow

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Speaker 3: dot com slash the Bechdel Cast. And it's time for

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Speaker 3: these guns to get.

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Speaker 2: To girl, Girl, Bye Gone Bye.

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Speaker 4: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by

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Speaker 4: Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited

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Speaker 4: by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike

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Speaker 4: Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Volskrosenski. Our logo and merch

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Speaker 4: is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to

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Speaker 4: Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit

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Speaker 4: link tree slash Bechdel Cast