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Speaker 1: This is the Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio. Hello,

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Speaker 1: I'm Jason Kelly and I'm Mike Lynch, and we're here Monday's,

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Speaker 1: Wednesdays and Thursdays to explore the big money issues and

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Speaker 1: the world of sports. Talk to some of the biggest

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Speaker 1: players in the industry today. Delighted to have back with

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Speaker 1: us on the pod. Bloomberg opinion columnists New York Times

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Speaker 1: bestselling author Man of Many Hats and Many Opinions. Joe No, Sarah, Joe.

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Speaker 1: Great to have you with us. Thanks. I guess I

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Speaker 1: am a man of many opinions. You are. I haven't

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Speaker 1: really thought about it like that, all right, So let's

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Speaker 1: talk a little sports. Let's talk first about the n

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Speaker 1: C Double A. This is getting more and more complicated

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Speaker 1: for sports to return in the fall. What do you

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Speaker 1: make of it? As you read the headlines, you read

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Speaker 1: about teams going out to bars and coming back infected

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Speaker 1: with COVID. What's going to happen? I think the chances

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Speaker 1: of there being a full on college football season is

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Speaker 1: getting slimmer and slimmer. You know, the number of players

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Speaker 1: at the University of Texas, I think it was like

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Speaker 1: one out of every eight players had it, you know,

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Speaker 1: Ohio States had some outbreaks, and then there's a Black

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Speaker 1: Lives Matter issue where some of the players are basically

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Speaker 1: mad at their coaches for not being appropriately respectful of

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Speaker 1: the Black Lives Matters movement and you know, threatening basically

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Speaker 1: to strike. So one of the one of the things

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Speaker 1: that COVID has done, and this era has done, this

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Speaker 1: moment has done it is reminded players that they have

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Speaker 1: power and if they use it collectively. Individually they're afraid

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Speaker 1: of their coach, they're afraid of getting caught, they're afraid

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Speaker 1: of losing their scholarship, you know, et cetera. But collectively

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Speaker 1: they have immense power, as we saw some years ago

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Speaker 1: after Ferguson at the University Missouri where the president got

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Speaker 1: fired because the football team said they would go on strike.

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Speaker 1: So so that's happening now to a much greater degree.

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Speaker 1: And one of the uncertainties, it seems to me, is

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Speaker 1: whether the players are just gonna say, look, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not willing to get COVID, so you guys can

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Speaker 1: make a lot of money and we'll see how that

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Speaker 1: plays out. I mean, we've got a ways to go.

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Speaker 1: But but m universities they don't hold all the cards, Joe.

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Speaker 1: I was doing a little research when I found out

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Speaker 1: we're going to be talking today, and I went to

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Speaker 1: one of the articles and the first sentence read, the

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Speaker 1: coronavirus could be the best thing that's ever happened to

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Speaker 1: college athletics. And then the page started to fade. Because

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Speaker 1: I'm such a cheap skate. I had already used that

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Speaker 1: my one free Bloomberg article, So can you So can

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Speaker 1: you pick it up from there and tell me exactly

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Speaker 1: what that's what that sentence was leading into into that

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Speaker 1: piece that you wrote, Well, well, first of all, you

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Speaker 1: should be ashamed of yourself striving to Bloomberg when you're

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Speaker 1: w and I went to be you like you did.

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Speaker 1: I'd have you know, I have more money in my

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Speaker 1: bank account, and I'd be all afford it. The essence

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Speaker 1: of my article was that COVID is going to put

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Speaker 1: severe budgetary constraints on universities, with students wanting to take

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Speaker 1: a year off and not wanting to play full price,

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Speaker 1: students refusing to pay full price to do online. You know,

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Speaker 1: a lot a lot fewer kids being in dorms, etcetera, etcetera,

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Speaker 1: And that one of the consequences of that budgetary shortfall

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Speaker 1: was going to be athletic department shot fall, not at

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Speaker 1: Ohio State and not at the University of Texas, but

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Speaker 1: at all sorts of universities all around the country, and

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Speaker 1: that this could potentially turned college sports into something that's

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Speaker 1: a little more sensible, so that you'd have the Power five. Still,

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Speaker 1: of course that wouldn't change um, but that you know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the other schools would sort of rethink,

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Speaker 1: should I be in big time football, or maybe I

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Speaker 1: should downscale a little little bit or and this is

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Speaker 1: this is one of the absurdities of the current system,

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Speaker 1: is that if you're West Virginia and you're the West

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Speaker 1: Virginia tennis team, you actually have to fly to Texas

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Speaker 1: for three away games, you know, because there are three

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Speaker 1: Texas schools in in in the Big Eight. And that's nuts.

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Speaker 1: And so one of the things I think it would

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Speaker 1: do is regionalize a lot of sports that are not

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Speaker 1: football and basketball the way hockey is regionalized. Hockey is

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Speaker 1: the one sport that does this sensibly, where where you

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Speaker 1: have UH an Eastern contingent you know, that plays each other,

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Speaker 1: and then you have a Midwest contingent that plays each other,

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Speaker 1: and they only really meet when they get to the

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Speaker 1: final four, the frozen four. Excuse me. So I think

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Speaker 1: that the the economic constraints has the potential to create

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Speaker 1: a more sensible version of college sports. That's that's really

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Speaker 1: what I was talking about. And so, Joe, since you

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Speaker 1: wrote that, I feel like we've gotten even a clear

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Speaker 1: window into how complicated this is for so many universities

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Speaker 1: and their management of their sports end. They're just ultimate reliance,

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Speaker 1: as you've alluded to on on college football. So play

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Speaker 1: this out, I mean for the academic year of twenty

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Speaker 1: slash twenty one. But going forward, this uncertainty, this this

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Speaker 1: could last a long time and have ramifications for years

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Speaker 1: and years to come. Not if you're a power University

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Speaker 1: of Texas, Ohio State, Michigan, USC, USC U c l A, Oklahoma,

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Speaker 1: Oklahoma State, those schools can survive. A one year hiatus

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Speaker 1: of college football would be painful. It would be painful.

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Speaker 1: They would they would be deprived of thirty five million

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Speaker 1: dollars and money they get from from their conference. They

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Speaker 1: would be deprived of their own television revenue or ESPN revenue.

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Speaker 1: They lose a lot of money but they could get

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Speaker 1: through it. They could get through it if you're Wayne State,

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Speaker 1: if your Ball State, if you're Boston College, if you're Rutgers,

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Speaker 1: hundreds of other schools. They can't afford to do it,

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Speaker 1: and if they were to lose the college football season,

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Speaker 1: they would have to drastically change the face of their

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Speaker 1: athletic department. I don't even know how they would do it.

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Speaker 1: You don't forget the n c A has a minimum

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Speaker 1: requirement of fourteen sports to be a member in good

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Speaker 1: standing in Division one. Well, I mean, come on, that

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Speaker 1: is untenable in this era, and especially if you don't

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Speaker 1: have college football and you can't afford, you know, and

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Speaker 1: the n CIA s that has to back down from that,

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Speaker 1: which so far it has not done despite a number

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Speaker 1: of requests, or the schools are just gonna say we're

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Speaker 1: gonna do it and we don't really care what the

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Speaker 1: n c A says because we can't afford it. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, uh, once again, if that happens, the n

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Speaker 1: c A will be leading from behind. But if you

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Speaker 1: didn't have college football this year, it's almost hard to

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Speaker 1: imagine what a cataclysm that would be for the universities themselves,

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Speaker 1: For the athletes. And let's not forget for for ESPN,

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Speaker 1: which is losing subscribers left and right, and it isn't

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Speaker 1: you know, really having trouble. And you know the only

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Speaker 1: thing that saved it the last couple of months is

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Speaker 1: the Michael Jordan's documentary. You know, if they don't have

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Speaker 1: college football, which they really really depend on, they got

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Speaker 1: a big problem. Joe, Um, what what's the biggest impediment

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Speaker 1: outside of a vaccine for this thing, for getting college

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Speaker 1: football back on the field is that the individual states

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Speaker 1: that have different regulations, some are open, summer closed. Is

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Speaker 1: that conference rule is at university presidents? I mean, which

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Speaker 1: of those hurdles is the first one when the starter's

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Speaker 1: gun goes off that you have to have to get

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Speaker 1: over first? Well, I mean the biggest hurdle is the

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Speaker 1: fear of getting COVID. I mean, there's no state at

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Speaker 1: this point that would not allow college football to take place. Uh,

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Speaker 1: they're all pretty much reopening. Universities are given a lot

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Speaker 1: of leeway. As you may have noticed a lot of schools. Uh,

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Speaker 1: starting with Purdue, that was the first one. I've basically

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Speaker 1: said we are going to manage, We're gonna bring students

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Speaker 1: back on campus, and we're gonna have social distancing and

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Speaker 1: wearing masks and so on. Now, you know, if there

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Speaker 1: were to be a big, big outbreak of COVID on

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Speaker 1: at Purdue, they would have to stop that. So you know,

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Speaker 1: you can picture a scenario where you know, Duke plays

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Speaker 1: North Carolina and football and you know, the next day

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Speaker 1: ten players test positive. And if that were to happen,

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Speaker 1: you know, North Carolina and Duke would shut would shut

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Speaker 1: down their football programs. So the number one impediment is

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Speaker 1: the potential of a lot of players getting COVID And

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Speaker 1: the number two impediment is a lot of players being

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Speaker 1: afraid of getting COVID and basically saying, sorry, fellas, we're

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Speaker 1: not playing. And you know, I think that's a legitimate scenario. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it hasn't happened yet because it's a little early, but

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Speaker 1: let's see what happens in August and September. So meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: Joe shifting to pro sports, the NBA, the National Basketball

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Speaker 1: Association is teed up to play. As it were, we

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Speaker 1: think all signs are pointing towards bubbling there in Orlando,

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Speaker 1: and yet as we get closer and closer, it's only

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Speaker 1: getting more complicated. What's your read on the NBA at

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Speaker 1: this moment. They're gonna try. They're absolutely gonna try. First

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Speaker 1: of all, it's a brilliant idea, even if it doesn't

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Speaker 1: work to to put everybody in a bubble at Disneyland

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Speaker 1: or disney World and uh, you know, keep them from

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Speaker 1: keep the outside world from coming in. Now, unfortunately, you know,

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Speaker 1: Florida is now in the midst of a huge run

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Speaker 1: up in in positive cases, and who knows how that

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Speaker 1: will affect the plans, but it seems to it seems

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Speaker 1: pretty clear that they're going to try. And you start

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Speaker 1: practicing beginning of next month, start playing some exhibition games

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Speaker 1: in the latter part of the month, and then start

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Speaker 1: the season truncated season around July. There's a bunch of

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Speaker 1: teams that are still in the hunt for playoffs spots,

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Speaker 1: so there'll be some exciting games then. And then, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you know, one player or two players get COVID,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure they're gonna keep going. If you know half

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Speaker 1: a team gets COVID, I think they'll shut it down again.

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Speaker 1: I think it's worth trying. You know, athletes are young,

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Speaker 1: and they're strong, and the chances of them dying or

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Speaker 1: going to the hospital because of COVID is pretty slim.

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Speaker 1: But nonetheless, you know, there's there's risks that are reasonable

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Speaker 1: and risks that are unreasonable. Right now, it seems like

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Speaker 1: a reasonable risk, but it may not. It may not

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Speaker 1: turn out that way. Also, by the way, once again,

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Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter has played a role in here. And

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Speaker 1: there's a couple of players now unfortunately I can't remember

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Speaker 1: who they are, but there's a couple of players have

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Speaker 1: basically said I'm not going to play. I think Dwight

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Speaker 1: Howard's one of them. Well, Kyrie Irving was, I mean,

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Speaker 1: who's not playing anyway, but he was really who really

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Speaker 1: came to the ford and said we shouldn't play, even

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Speaker 1: though he's not playing right exactly, Yes, at least at

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Speaker 1: least Kady, you know, basically says I'm not playing. But

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Speaker 1: that's because I'm still hurt, right Kyrie, Yeah, Kyrie basically

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Speaker 1: says we shouldn't be playing. People really really yearned for basketball,

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Speaker 1: and not just not every people of all cars in

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Speaker 1: this country are dying for some sports, and basketball is

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Speaker 1: the most likely UH to to be able to UH

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Speaker 1: to take place. I thought it would be tennis. But um,

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Speaker 1: the idiots who play tennis have not only come down

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Speaker 1: with Covid in that Djokovic's you know, a little tournament

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Speaker 1: that he threw, but on the internet there's ah this

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Speaker 1: video of some players partying without masks in close quarters

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Speaker 1: and basically practically begging Covid to hit them. So, Joe,

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Speaker 1: why wouldn't that happen to the to the NBA even

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Speaker 1: though they're in the in the bubble And and that

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Speaker 1: that's the first part of this next question is which

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Speaker 1: of the four major leagues do you think we'll have

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Speaker 1: the best chance of success of completing a season? Baseball, Basketball, football,

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Speaker 1: or hockey. Well, baseball should have the best chance because

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Speaker 1: you know, baseball is by its nature a fair amount

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Speaker 1: of social distancing, given you know where the players sit

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Speaker 1: in the field and so on and so forth. And

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Speaker 1: I mean there's collisions that we're played in second basement,

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Speaker 1: but by and large, you know, it's a it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a sport where there's less they're not in constant

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Speaker 1: contact the way they are in in other sports. So

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Speaker 1: baseball auto but but management and the union are at

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Speaker 1: each other's throats, and so you know that creates difficulties

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Speaker 1: because you can sort of see the players storming off

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Speaker 1: the field after the third game because the player comes

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Speaker 1: down with it. And so I think in the end

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Speaker 1: basketball all is the most likely because they seem to

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Speaker 1: be taking the most precautions and because they're smarter about

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Speaker 1: this than than the other sports. Um, football might get

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Speaker 1: lucky just because it takes place in the fall, and

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Speaker 1: maybe we'll get through this wave, although you know everybody

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Speaker 1: expects a second wave in the fall. I think basketball

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Speaker 1: has the best chance. So Joe, as you as we

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Speaker 1: wrap up, like, just take a couple of steps back.

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Speaker 1: I know you're just starting work or you've signed a

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Speaker 1: deal to write a new book with Bethany McClain. You're

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Speaker 1: a frequent collaborator over the years, and I know a

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Speaker 1: good friend of yours to write a book about the

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Speaker 1: government's response to this. I mean, you were seeing the

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Speaker 1: world's through the COVID lens, not just sports, but but

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Speaker 1: the whole shebang. Uh, where are we right now? I mean,

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Speaker 1: what what's the take that we need to hear? We

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Speaker 1: are not in a great place. Every state that has

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Speaker 1: tried to reopen has has had a burst of new cases.

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Speaker 1: A lot of new cases. And it's not just Florida,

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Speaker 1: in Texas, and it's not just at states. Look at California.

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Speaker 1: You know, California is as blue as they get, and

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Speaker 1: they're they're having five and six thousand new cases a day.

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Speaker 1: In New York right now is starting to reopen cautiously,

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Speaker 1: but um, the history suggests that when you reopen, you're

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Speaker 1: going to get new cases. And and you know, the

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Speaker 1: tact of the matter is that in Florida that somebody

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Speaker 1: did a poll, only fifty of the people are wearing

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Speaker 1: masks regularly. And you know, people are not I know

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Speaker 1: they're anxious to get back to their lives, but people

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Speaker 1: are not taking the proper precautions and that's causing a

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Speaker 1: lot of this. It's not just government response. And you

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Speaker 1: can't stay locked up forever, because if you stay locked

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Speaker 1: down forever, you don't have an economy. So it's a

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Speaker 1: really tricky situation. But the truth of the matter is

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Speaker 1: that if the entire country were to take the precautions

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Speaker 1: that they need to take, we could reopen with a

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Speaker 1: lot less cases and a lot fewer problems. And like

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Speaker 1: in Florida, for instance, the average age of a positive

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Speaker 1: case has gone from sixty two and a half to

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Speaker 1: thirty four. That that tells you what's going on young

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Speaker 1: people who feel invulnerable and are so excited to be

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Speaker 1: out and about and the bars are open. They actually

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Speaker 1: had to shut the bars down again in Florida because

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Speaker 1: people were just crowding into bars without masks and you know,

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Speaker 1: spreading COVID. So you know, I'm discharged because I think

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Speaker 1: this is a solvable problem without a whole lot of difficulty.

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Speaker 1: But but too many people are not willing to make

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Speaker 1: the small sacrifices they need to make to get us

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Speaker 1: over this hump. Joe No, Sarah, thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Always good to catch up with you. You're always on

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Speaker 1: the news and as I said at the top, you've

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Speaker 1: always got an opinion. Congrats on the new book deal.

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Speaker 1: I cannot wait to read it for anybody who wants

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Speaker 1: to check out the whole Joe Nos Sarah, Bethany McClain vibe,

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Speaker 1: first read the book. You've done one book together already, right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: all all the devils are here, the hidden history of

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Speaker 1: the financial crisis. And also, I know you've been a

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Speaker 1: guest on her podcast Making a Killing, which it's just

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Speaker 1: good listening because you just get the chemistry and it

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Speaker 1: will get you excited about this book that is due

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Speaker 1: out when you finish it. So really, can I can

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Speaker 1: I hire you with my publicist. Listen, I am your

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Speaker 1: ultimate hype man because also, I mean also, let's not

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Speaker 1: forget Joe no, Sarah, that you had the number one

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Speaker 1: podcast in the world last year, The Shrink next Door

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Speaker 1: coming soon to Apple TV, starring Will Ferrell and Paul Right.

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Speaker 1: And I got one other, one other factoid. Yes, there's

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Speaker 1: a new episode of Shrinks next Door coming out on July.

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Speaker 1: It is a knockout excellent. Alright, Well, you're gonna have

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Speaker 1: to come back on this show, Bloomberg physically, whatever it is,

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Speaker 1: because as I said, I'm your ultimate hype man, your

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Speaker 1: biggest fan, and always appreciate the time. Sarah, You're the best,

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Speaker 1: all right. You can catch our podcast right here every Monday,

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Speaker 1: Wednesday and Thursday. I'm Jason Kelly on Twitter at Jason

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Speaker 1: Kelly News and now Mike Lynch. You can find me

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Speaker 1: on Twitter at Lynch e w CBB. You're listening to

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Speaker 1: Blueberg Business of Sports from Blueberg Radio around the world.