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Speaker 1: Previously on Happy Face.

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Speaker 2: How did Keith get away with it for so long?

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Speaker 1: Laverne A.

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Speaker 3: Pavlanac is accused of four counts of aggravated murder, rape,

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Speaker 3: sex abuse, kidnapping, and felony murder for the death of

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Speaker 3: Tanya A.

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Speaker 1: Bennett.

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Speaker 3: Pavlanak fed police anonymous tips that led to the arrest

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Speaker 3: of her longtime boyfriend, John A.

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Speaker 1: Sasnovsky.

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Speaker 4: Laverne was trying to get rid of her boyfriend. She

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Speaker 4: convinced him by saying she had participated in the murder

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Speaker 4: with John Susnovskian.

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Speaker 5: If it weren't for the anonymous letter, the case might

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Speaker 5: well have remained forgotten. Quote Honor about January twentieth, nineteen

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Speaker 5: ninety I picked up Sonia Bennett and took her home.

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Speaker 5: The name is Tanya, not Sonya Bennett, and she was

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Speaker 5: killed according to the experts who examined the body on

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Speaker 5: the night of January twenty first, not the twentieth.

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Speaker 2: Melissa and I reached out to Jim McNeely, a retired

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Speaker 2: detective from the Moltnomah County Sheriff's Department.

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Speaker 4: He knew what he was talking about, and he had

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Speaker 4: information on those murders that hadn't been in the papers.

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Speaker 2: Jefferson kind of saw you as a partner in this.

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Speaker 4: We were conspiring to prove that he was guilty.

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Speaker 2: There's always been one person Melissa has been afraid to

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Speaker 2: meet the son of Jefferson's last victim, Don Findley. We

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Speaker 2: spoke for a couple of hours, and I was finally

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Speaker 2: able to convince him to meet you.

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Speaker 1: And the vies in love vies with.

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Speaker 6: I don't know, shine, oh.

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Speaker 7: Oh.

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Speaker 2: There's an almost numbing quality to hearing Keith describe as crimes.

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Speaker 2: The details are almost too horrific to fully absorb. We

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Speaker 2: know the way he tied women up, how he beat

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Speaker 2: raped and stopped them from breathing, And yet some seem

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Speaker 2: more shocked to hear how he tortured a cat than

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Speaker 2: how many women's lives he took. But over a period

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Speaker 2: of five years from nineteen ninety to nineteen ninety five,

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Speaker 2: Keith murdered at least eight women. His last victim was

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Speaker 2: Julianne Winningham, But Keith Hunter jesperson, decimated countless lives beyond

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Speaker 2: the ones he took, including that of Julie's son, Don Fendley.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco, and this is happy face.

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Speaker 3: From I The Creation of a Serial Killer by Jack Olson.

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Speaker 3: The morning after I killed Julie Winningham, my eighth victim,

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Speaker 3: I drove to Vancouver, Washington to get my driver's license renewed.

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Speaker 3: On my way, I thought about moving Julie's body farther

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Speaker 3: from the road, but I decided it was too much

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Speaker 3: bother I drove straight through to Baker City, Oregon, and

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Speaker 3: played a little cribbage. I made a few bucks and

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Speaker 3: hit on some of the women. I gave a couple

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Speaker 3: of Julie's old coats to a cute girl from Boise.

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Speaker 2: So who is Don Findley and why are you so

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Speaker 2: afraid to meet him?

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Speaker 8: Don Finley is the son of Julie Winningham, my father's

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Speaker 8: last victim. He was present the entire trial of his

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Speaker 8: mother's murder, and he faced my father in court. I

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Speaker 8: first heard about him by reading the Oregonian and his

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Speaker 8: statements in court. I instantly wanted to meet him decades ago,

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Speaker 8: and have made attempts to reach out to him and

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Speaker 8: been rejected. I had heard that he wanted to do

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Speaker 8: the things that my dad did to his.

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Speaker 2: Mom to me.

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Speaker 1: Where did you hear that from.

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Speaker 8: A producer when I had the show Monster in My Family.

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Speaker 8: The whole premise of the show is to connect perpetrator's

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Speaker 8: family members with victims family members, and the number one

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Speaker 8: person I wanted to meet was done, so I had

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Speaker 8: a producer reach out to him, and that producer had

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Speaker 8: relayed the information to me that he he had thought

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Speaker 8: about that, that he thought about harming me in the

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Speaker 8: same fashion that my dad had harmed his mom, because.

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Speaker 2: He wanted revenge by taking something from your dad. I

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Speaker 2: think that he he vilified you quite a bit, and

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Speaker 2: he thought that you had this perfect, wonderful life and

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Speaker 2: that you had never suffered because of the harm your

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Speaker 2: father had inflicted upon people. And I told him a

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Speaker 2: little bit about your work and about the fact that

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Speaker 2: you really wanted You've spent your entire adult life trying

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Speaker 2: to atone for your dad's crimes and sins. And I

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Speaker 2: think that he had never really looked at the ramifications

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Speaker 2: of your dad's actions on his family and his children.

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Speaker 8: And so he decided he.

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Speaker 2: Was touch and go, but he said that he'd be

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Speaker 2: willing to try. I mean, he never gave me a

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Speaker 2: guarantee that he was actually going to show.

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Speaker 8: Up My hope is that it's several things. Honestly, my

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Speaker 8: real hope is I just want to say I'm sorry.

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Speaker 8: I want him to know how sorry I am.

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Speaker 1: For what my father did.

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Speaker 8: It's just true, true sadness for what happened. And I

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Speaker 8: can't offer any restitution or bring his mom back, and

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Speaker 8: my sorrow for his mom's loss isn't enough. There's nothing

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Speaker 8: I could give him, but I definitely want him to

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Speaker 8: know how sorry I am. I think that's the best

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Speaker 8: I can offer. That's all I can offer.

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Speaker 9: Let it happen. Look at I mean this is the

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Speaker 9: place he picked.

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Speaker 8: I mean this is adorable.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so we're looking at the most adorable little seaside

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Speaker 2: cafe that's actually sitting on the water. And to get

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Speaker 2: there you have to walk on this kind of metal

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Speaker 2: grate that rocks back and forth. The cafe is this cheerful,

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Speaker 2: turquoise blue. It sits not by the water, but on

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Speaker 2: the water. I think it's gonna be an interesting meeting.

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Speaker 8: He picked it, he picked this location. This feels very friendly.

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Speaker 8: I don't know, I'm.

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Speaker 2: Cheerful, it's peaceful.

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Speaker 10: It's hard because.

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Speaker 8: I'm because I don't know what I'm gonna walk into.

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Speaker 10: Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh. Walking on this it's

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Speaker 10: like walking on still.

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Speaker 9: I'll be right back.

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Speaker 2: Don asked that we not roll audio until after they'd

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Speaker 2: had a chance to meet.

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Speaker 6: I think that's him. I think I think he's behind me.

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Speaker 6: This guy's arms crossed. I'm gonna turn turn my back

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Speaker 6: so I'm sweet can meet with Lauren. I'm glad Lauren's

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Speaker 6: meeting with him first. He he looks, he looks tense.

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Speaker 1: Hm.

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Speaker 10: I like the location he picked.

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Speaker 2: I gestured for Melissa to come over, and she had

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Speaker 2: to cross this metal plank to get back from where

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Speaker 2: she was standing on the water to me. And Melissa

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Speaker 2: is shaking so hard that the entire thing is trembling

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Speaker 2: as she's walking because she's so nervous. And she walks

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Speaker 2: up to Don and without saying anything, he opens up

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Speaker 2: his arms and they embrace, and Melissa just starts sobbing.

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Speaker 2: It was one of the most beautiful moments I think

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Speaker 2: I've gotten to witness as a producer. There was such

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Speaker 2: a vulnerability and strength on both side of that hug,

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Speaker 2: and it's as if it ripped open a scab on

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Speaker 2: Melissa's soul. She just sobbed.

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Speaker 4: God. It was.

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Speaker 8: When he hugged me and just stretched his arms and

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Speaker 8: he hugged me, it felt like the wash of forgiveness

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Speaker 8: purified my heart, Like it just melted away my anxiety,

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Speaker 8: an anxiety that was interwoven in my fibers of my being.

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Speaker 8: Like I didn't realize how tense I've been walking my

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Speaker 8: life until he hugged me. And it was like this

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Speaker 8: relaxation and solace that I've never felt before. And it

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Speaker 8: was something that I thought I could seek in religion

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Speaker 8: and find that solace through a forgiveness of a loving God.

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Speaker 8: And to say, you know, but when Dawn hugged me,

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Speaker 8: it was like, all as well, the past is washed

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Speaker 8: away and I'm free. I'm forgiven and free to walk

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Speaker 8: my life as I need to walk.

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Speaker 3: That was a lot.

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Speaker 11: Yeah, if you're gonna do it, you gotta do it

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Speaker 11: right or don't do it at all.

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Speaker 10: Yeah.

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Speaker 12: And it's got to.

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Speaker 11: Come out girl, Sorry, And it's gonna be the hardest.

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Speaker 12: Yeah, because this whole time.

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Speaker 11: I can only imagine what your thoughts are sitting back.

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Speaker 12: Like I said, I've put.

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Speaker 11: Myself in your shoes and I can't imagine.

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Speaker 12: But maybe I am.

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Speaker 8: The missing limb, and you know, I can't even put

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Speaker 8: myself in your shoes, like I don't even know. I

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Speaker 8: don't know how you did it. I don't know how

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Speaker 8: you are here like I.

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Speaker 2: We settled into the cafe, but for more privacy, we

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Speaker 2: decided to head back outside to a quiet bench overlooking water, so.

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Speaker 12: I'm in a better spot. More questions do you have first?

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Speaker 12: I mean, I'm sure you've been pondering what I think.

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Speaker 8: What I would like to know first is I briefly

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Speaker 8: met your mom. Okay, yeah, I'd like to whatever you

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Speaker 8: want to tell me about your mom.

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Speaker 13: And well, my mom stayed here in campus with her

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Speaker 13: mom and was tossed between her dad, who lived in California,

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Speaker 13: where I was born and raised.

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Speaker 12: She wasn't an educated woman.

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Speaker 11: She was a very energetic, positive, adventurous walked her own path,

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Speaker 11: but because of her own education, she had to do

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Speaker 11: certain things to get by life. I mean back in

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Speaker 11: the day, she supposedly had married a truck driver just

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Speaker 11: as big as your father, but he was from Arkansas

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Speaker 11: and they got divorced. So my mom had me, and

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Speaker 11: she wasn't around a lot in my life because she

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Speaker 11: was on her own little journey and was scared of

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Speaker 11: the family who raised you. My dad's mom, my mom's

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Speaker 11: step mom, and my mom's dad.

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Speaker 12: Why my dad worked all the time.

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Speaker 2: What did he do?

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Speaker 11: My dad was a regional manager for an auditing company and.

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Speaker 12: They got divorced. Dad got custody.

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Speaker 11: Mom wasn't around, and she traveled the United States and

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Speaker 11: liked to do her own thing. Everybody loved her. She

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Speaker 11: wasn't a drunk, She wasn't an alcoholic or drug addict.

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Speaker 12: She uah.

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Speaker 11: This is the stuff. The media don't know what I'm

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Speaker 11: about to tell you. No one knows this. I haven't

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Speaker 11: told anybody because they ask, but they don't. It's all

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Speaker 11: been about unfortunately, it's been about you and your father.

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Speaker 11: When these people tell me what they're promising me right,

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Speaker 11: I was under the influence that I'm supposed to help people,

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Speaker 11: but the little thirty second segments aren't long enough to

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Speaker 11: help people.

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Speaker 2: One of the things Don wanted to clarify that he

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Speaker 2: believes the media got absolutely wrong was his mother, Julie's

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Speaker 2: relationship with Keith. As we know, Keith broke his rules

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Speaker 2: for Julie. It was the first time he'd killed someone

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Speaker 2: he dated and really knew In fact, when Keith introduced

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Speaker 2: Julie to Melissa or talked to Melissa about her, he'd

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Speaker 2: referred to Julie as his fiance. But Don takes issue

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Speaker 2: with this.

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Speaker 12: My mom was living in Utah.

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Speaker 11: I talked to her on February eleventh, because her birthday

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Speaker 11: was February twelfth, the mine was February twentieth. There was

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Speaker 11: no talk of your father. My mom was not in

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Speaker 11: a relationship. She was living with a girlfriend and a kid.

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Speaker 11: She was telling me that she was on her way

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Speaker 11: down here to Camus to visit with their mom. She

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Speaker 11: had met your father in nineteen ninety two prior, and

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Speaker 11: she knew how to work the truck stops because she

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Speaker 11: drove truck and did her thing, and he offered her

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Speaker 11: a ride. To hear, he must not have had any

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Speaker 11: pickups because they hung out in town for a couple

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Speaker 11: of weeks. Okay, they were not in a relationship.

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Speaker 2: You can hear in Don's voice how angry he is

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Speaker 2: about the idea that Keith and his mother were ever together.

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Speaker 2: There is also a pain that comes from the constant

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Speaker 2: reminders of his mother. Everywhere he goes, he visits places

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Speaker 2: she frequented, and he drives past the scene of her

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Speaker 2: murder on a daily basis.

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Speaker 12: Every day up my life since then, I tryed. I

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Speaker 12: have to try buy it every day I can. Fishing

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Speaker 12: in the beautiful.

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Speaker 1: Corse, I gotta drive right by it.

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Speaker 12: I didn't run. I faced it head on.

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Speaker 1: I kept crushing my heart.

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Speaker 3: The long haul trucker told a Clark County Sheriff's Office

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Speaker 3: detective by phone that he strangled Julianne Winningham, forty one,

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Speaker 3: while raping her in the sleeper car of his rig

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Speaker 3: after gagging her with duct tape. Winningham's nude body was

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Speaker 3: found March eleventh, dumped down a bank of a viewpoint

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Speaker 3: along Highway fourteen in the Columbia River gor four miles

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Speaker 3: east of Wasshugel.

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Speaker 2: The scenery wasn't the only reminder of his mother's murder,

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Speaker 2: so was his name. After his mom's death, Don changed

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Speaker 2: his name to Leroy. It's actually part of why he

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Speaker 2: was so difficult for me to track down. I had

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Speaker 2: to go through Leroy to get to Don. We asked

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Speaker 2: him a little bit about why he chose that name.

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Speaker 11: I was living in San Diego, working at a car wash,

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Speaker 11: had friends in bands, and just living a fun life.

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Speaker 11: I was looking pot doing drugs. I was up for

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Speaker 11: three days. When I got the phone call at work,

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Speaker 11: I went ballistic. I pulled off kitchen sinks, punched the wood.

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Speaker 11: Then I walked home and I fell in the middle

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Speaker 11: of the main street and cried. So this is where

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Speaker 11: Leroy comes into play. I came up here for the trials.

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Speaker 11: I got a job telemarketing. They asked me if I

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00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:14,159
Speaker 11: had a nickname. I said Leroy. They put Leroy up

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Speaker 11: on the board, so I started telling people my name

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Speaker 11: was Leroy, even though they're seeing me every day on

258
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Speaker 11: the news. I mean, not only did I not know anybody,

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Speaker 11: but I found a job and a place to live

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Speaker 11: to be able to see this to the end.

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Speaker 12: My family was not there for me. No one's ever

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Speaker 12: asked me if I was okay.

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Speaker 14: I want to know what happily you found out. You

264
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Speaker 14: came up here. Why did you have to go to

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Speaker 14: the Morgue.

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Speaker 11: Well, the reason I had to go to the Morgue

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Speaker 11: was because my mom wasn't around a lot in my life,

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Speaker 11: and I had to physically see her that way to

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Speaker 11: know that she's dead, or otherwise I would still think

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00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,840
Speaker 11: she's on a traveling around doing her thing because we

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Speaker 11: didn't talk that often.

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Speaker 12: She wasn't around a lot.

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Speaker 15: I'm going back to how you had to see your mom.

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Speaker 12: I can't imagine.

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Speaker 14: You you saw her after what? Yeah, I don't even

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Speaker 14: know what she looked like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to know.

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Speaker 8: I want to know, sir, because you have to see it.

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Speaker 15: I want to know what you saw.

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Speaker 12: All right, Well, I show up. It's underneath the jail.

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Speaker 12: It's really like the movies.

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Speaker 11: Long long, long, long, long long long. They open up

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Speaker 11: a room, white walls, silver table. My mom has a

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Speaker 11: sheet covered up to her neck. I see from her

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00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:51,480
Speaker 11: face a mark from here to here. That's why, as

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00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:56,280
Speaker 11: black as day's night, I see shrub marks on her

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00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,680
Speaker 11: cheeks from where she rolled down through the berry briars.

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Speaker 12: I also see.

289
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,360
Speaker 11: The top of my mom's head, just sitting on top

290
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,920
Speaker 11: of her head because they did the aptosy on her brain,

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Speaker 11: so it was just.

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Speaker 15: There.

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Speaker 11: That's the last time I saw my mom.

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Speaker 10: What are you do with those images?

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Speaker 12: Mask them? They go away. She was such a beauty lady.

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Speaker 16: He stuck his fist down my mother's throat to make

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00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:55,080
Speaker 16: sure she was dead. Duck taped her, suffocated her, raped her,

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Speaker 16: carried him around in the cap of his truck, drove

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Speaker 16: up the mountain. She lost her like a fucking piece

300
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,400
Speaker 16: of garbage, and the next time I see her she's

301
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Speaker 16: like that.

302
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Speaker 7: I truly can't explain the anger and ate I've had

303
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 7: over the years towards this, but I've had. I had

304
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,520
Speaker 7: to put it past me. I had to because otherwise

305
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,760
Speaker 7: I'm not going to be happy, and I need to

306
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Speaker 7: be happy.

307
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Speaker 3: I was wearing just my shoes and a shirt when

308
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,840
Speaker 3: I headed east. I knew she would wake up soon

309
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,439
Speaker 3: and then she'd really no terror. I breaked hard at

310
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,720
Speaker 3: a stop sign and heard her grunt. She tried to

311
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 3: get into the front passenger seat, but fell to the

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00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 3: floor and cut her forehead on the seat pedestal.

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Speaker 1: A little pool of blood formed.

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Speaker 3: I reached down and patted her on the back and said,

315
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Speaker 3: nice of you to join me, Julie, and stay there

316
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Speaker 3: until I stop up ahead, and then you'll find out

317
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Speaker 3: what's going to happen to you.

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Speaker 2: Melissa and Don had been wrestling with the past for

319
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,200
Speaker 2: so long, trying to come to terms with its impact

320
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,960
Speaker 2: on their lives, and they were both eager to share

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Speaker 2: their experiences.

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Speaker 12: I don't know what you know, I don't know much,

323
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:36,959
Speaker 12: but I don't know what you want to know.

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Speaker 11: The Feds everybody, they figured out what trucking company he

325
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 11: worked for. And by the way, I see that trucking

326
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Speaker 11: company every day on the road. So you can imagine

327
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 11: my thoughts going through. You know, I see it too, Okay,

328
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,239
Speaker 11: and it's got to be hard for us. So they

329
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 11: found out what trucking company he worked for. He was

330
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 11: on a run. He was going to go pick up

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Speaker 11: a load in New Mexico. Okay, okay, So they called Hani.

332
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Speaker 11: They said he's gonna be in New Mexico. The local

333
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 11: police went there with the FEDS because it's out of jurisdiction.

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Speaker 12: Did the blood.

335
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 11: Urine and something else sample for him? They have to

336
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 11: bring it back here to test it. Before they get back,

337
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 11: he calls and says he tried to kill.

338
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Speaker 12: Himself by eating a bottle of Thailand. All they go back,

339
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Speaker 12: they arrest him, and the trials start.

340
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Speaker 15: Yeah, the detectives came up to Spokane and they questioned

341
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Speaker 15: my mom and then they they didn't tell her anything.

342
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 15: Then she said, uh to my brother or sister, and

343
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Speaker 15: I that your dad's in jail. Then my brother's like

344
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 15: for what it is, she said, for murder.

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Speaker 14: Just remember just feeling like this is this is not real?

346
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Speaker 12: He had.

347
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Speaker 14: I went to my uh my cot, laid down on him.

348
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 14: Did I just cried the whole night. He had wondered

349
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 14: who it was, what happened, how did it happen? And

350
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 14: he had a picture A million different things in my

351
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 14: head and I wanted answers. Nobody would just tell me.

352
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 14: I just wanted to know. And that's why I started

353
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 14: looking at the Orgonian and reading everything. And it was

354
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 14: hard to read it, but in a way it was

355
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 14: kind of a you know, a blessing in disguise, because

356
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 14: I don't know if I could have handled hearing it

357
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,880
Speaker 14: from your words in real life. I think just reading

358
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 14: it there was a there was a state of removal,

359
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 14: you know, I was somewhat removed when I could read

360
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 14: from a distance what was happening over here and what

361
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 14: was happening with your life?

362
00:23:53,480 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 15: This bra.

363
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 9: Four pike A right, this is where it happened.

364
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 12: What is this?

365
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 11: This is the spot. It used to be an empty

366
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 11: lot until two years ago.

367
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 10: I thought she was found on a roof.

368
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 11: Hold on, I'll show you if you stop right here.

369
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 11: This was an empty lot, and his eighteen wheeler was

370
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 11: parked right here.

371
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 12: Okay.

372
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,679
Speaker 11: The bar he was at is just not even at

373
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 11: the quarter of a mile up the road. My grandmother,

374
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Speaker 11: my mom's mom, lived three blocks up the road.

375
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Speaker 12: So his truck was parked here. Okay, this is where he.

376
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 11: Did what he did to my mom right here in

377
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 11: this lot.

378
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 10: With it was a parking.

379
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 11: Lot though, yeah, parking lot. You know, there was no

380
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 11: store here, There was no nothing here. His truck is

381
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 11: right here. My mom comes from the bar up the road.

382
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 11: They talk about the money issue.

383
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 10: He what was the money issue?

384
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 15: What was she to me?

385
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 10: Explain that to me.

386
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:21,880
Speaker 11: So basically, after listening to your father and saying how

387
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 11: one of the victims asked him for money after he

388
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 11: was already done with her, that reminded him of his

389
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 11: wife and that's what made him snap. And I remember

390
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 11: him saying this in one of his interviews. Well, my

391
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 11: mom went to the bartender and he was too busy.

392
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 11: My mom needed some money. Came to jessperson, your dad.

393
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 11: My mom had gotten into a car accident. Your dad's

394
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 11: signature was on the bill of sell, so my mom

395
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 11: came to town with him. They were hanging out I'm

396
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 11: assuming my mom had a car.

397
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 12: My mom was working. Something happened.

398
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 11: She went to your father for money, asking him nicely

399
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 11: because she wasn't a gold digger or anything, and he snapped.

400
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 12: Where we're going next is on Highway fourteen.

401
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,640
Speaker 11: He drove six miles out on Highway fourteen, pulled over

402
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 11: and threw her out without no rings or nothing, just

403
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 11: stark ass naked, and then came back, got his trailer

404
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 11: and drove off to New Mexico.

405
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 12: But your dad, your last freedom. Was your dad in

406
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 12: this town for three weeks? Give her take.

407
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: Did your grandmother ever say that they were talking about

408
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 2: getting married again.

409
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 12: My mom would have never got remarried. I know it

410
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 12: for a fact.

411
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 11: That came up through your father. Cause my mom, as

412
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 11: you can see, she was a very beautiful woman. She

413
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 11: was a kind hearted, good soul. And that's why your dad, you.

414
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 12: Said, he broke every rule that he ever had set.

415
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 11: For victims, that he was going to do this too, right,

416
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 11: My mom broke every rule because of her soul, her heart.

417
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 12: You know, he felt something different with her.

418
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 2: The truth when it comes to Keith is always in question.

419
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: Weeks later, Melissa still had doubts about the nature of

420
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 2: Julian Keith's relationship. Our producer Noel also made the trip

421
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 2: to Washington State to meet Don.

422
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 3: This idea of Julie being his fiance kind of keeps

423
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 3: coming up, and it's sort of like been called in

424
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 3: the question a few different ways by her son. For example,

425
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 3: he Don right off the bat said that's not true.

426
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 3: But there's a lot of he said, she said stuff

427
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 3: in all of these tales. You kind of were skeptical

428
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 3: of that too.

429
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 8: The only thing that makes me not skeptical of them

430
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 8: being together is the last time I saw my dad.

431
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 8: The last time I saw my dad was at a diner,

432
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 8: and he brought up that he was going to buy

433
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 8: me a car, a red Pontiac, and that he was

434
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 8: going to buy a house on the beach and that

435
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 8: Julie and him would live there and that I could

436
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 8: move in with him. And so the sense that he

437
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 8: was putting this future with Julie makes me think that

438
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 8: he saw something different in Julian, that he wanted to

439
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 8: settle down and get married.

440
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 3: But do you remember what we discovered that that wasn't

441
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 3: his dream, that was her dream. Don kind of talked

442
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 3: about how this is something she always talked about wanting to.

443
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 11: Have her son back with her, living in the beautiful

444
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 11: places out in California because my mom and him travel

445
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 11: from Utah to hear and they knew each other prior,

446
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 11: so he knew her dream.

447
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 10: So he was telling me your mom's dream. The last

448
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 10: time I saw her.

449
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 8: Her last words to my dad or what about your kids?

450
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 8: When she was pleading for her life. And I know

451
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 8: she was trying to appeal to the man and not

452
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 8: the monster. The fact that she was saying that makes me,

453
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,719
Speaker 8: you know, obviously, I know why she was pleading what

454
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 8: about your children, you know, to try to ground them

455
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 8: back into hey, you're a dad that.

456
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 2: But she was and this is again this is your

457
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: father's version.

458
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, we don't know what her lasts really were.

459
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 2: And in the Jackalsen book, your father claims that she

460
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 2: was saying, hey, wait, you know what about your children?

461
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: I was going to be basically their mother, And one

462
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 2: of his final insults to her is do you think

463
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: I would let you raise my kids? But she wasn't

464
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 2: good enough. But again, it's this ongoing theme that you've

465
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 2: pointed out that your dad has to degrade all of

466
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 2: his victims in some way shape or form that they

467
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 2: had it coming.

468
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 8: Absolutely. So the truth is I don't know. What we

469
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 8: do know is that Julie was murdered by my dad.

470
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 8: Her title of fiancee or girlfriend or friend is not relevant, really, I.

471
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 3: Think, I mean, I think it's relevant in that it's

472
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 3: the one that he interacted with outside of just a

473
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 3: killer victim relationship, at least as far as what we know.

474
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 8: Well, I know they were friends. I think that's what

475
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 8: they were friends for years, and that's what I think

476
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 8: haunts me more than the fiancee title, is that this

477
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 8: was a multi year relationship, not one of his fleeting

478
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 8: girlfriend situations or someone he barely knew. And if he

479
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 8: could do that to her, he could do that to anybody.

480
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 3: From I the creation of a serial killer by Jack Olsen.

481
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 3: I said, you don't love me, Julie, you never have.

482
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 3: She sniffed and said, what about your children? I was

483
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 3: going to look after your kids.

484
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: I laughed.

485
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 3: I said, you can't even look after yourself. How could

486
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 3: I trust you with my kids? I was thinking, how

487
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 3: do I keep running into these kind of women? All

488
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 3: this time? She's staring at me with tears in her eyes.

489
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 3: I removed the tape around her ankles, but I left

490
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 3: the tape on her arms so she couldn't go after

491
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 3: my eyes with her long fingernails.

492
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 8: Uh oh, I want to ask what you don't have

493
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 8: to answer her phone?

494
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 10: Okay, what were your mom's last time words?

495
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 12: Was that said? No? Have you wondered that?

496
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 11: I've never thought about that for the simple fact of

497
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 11: maybe that the fact that she was duct tape and

498
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 11: suffocated and didn't have a last word. So I've never

499
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 11: thought about what my mom's last thoughts or words were.

500
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 11: In my head, she asked him for money and that

501
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 11: made him snap, and that's how my mom ended up dead.

502
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 12: So that is my interpretation.

503
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 10: My mom said something yesterday when he tries to shame

504
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 10: my mom by publishing their intimacy their sex life, and

505
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 10: I said to my mom, I'm like, doesn't that make

506
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 10: you feel victimized? You know, like that dad's doing this?

507
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 17: And she said, well, it's not true, and I thought, yeah,

508
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 17: we only have his word for what happened because he

509
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 17: was the only par there and the person who did that.

510
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 11: And so but I believe what he did to my

511
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 11: mom is true because of the way his actions and

512
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 11: his wording.

513
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 12: And now, after you telling me how your father is.

514
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 12: That's why he was supposed to so specific in court.

515
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean, can you imagine my rage hearing this

516
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 11: man say he stuck his fist down my mom's throat

517
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 11: to make sure she was dead.

518
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 10: No, no.

519
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 11: Cammage, And then I left her in the back of

520
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 11: my truck for eight to twelve hours before I disposed

521
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 11: of her body.

522
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 10: So the autops had come from that.

523
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 11: I came up here on an airplane and I went

524
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 11: to every bar across this whole city, all the way

525
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 11: looking for your father. Didn't know who did it, because

526
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 11: they didn't know at this time, because this was less

527
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 11: than twenty four hours after finding my mom. I went

528
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 11: on a every bar.

529
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 10: Who are you looking for?

530
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 12: What did you think you.

531
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 14: Were looking for?

532
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 11: Being one hundred percent real with you, I don't know.

533
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 11: I like I said, I literally had been up for

534
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 11: three days a day prior.

535
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 10: You're just going in hoping that you would just see

536
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 10: somebody and they would you would know.

537
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 11: I'm assuming I can't answer that question because it's so

538
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 11: long ago, you know what I mean. But I remember

539
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 11: one night in the beginning, singing karaoke Pat Benatar singing,

540
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 11: hit me with your best shot, like to the whole.

541
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 12: You know, hit me, Come on, bring it on.

542
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 11: You know what I mean. I'm facing this head on.

543
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 11: You know what I mean. You think you got something

544
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 11: for me? Bring it on, Bring it on, Bring it on.

545
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 2: Julie was found absolutely by chance, when a local resident

546
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 2: stopped to take a scenic picture by the winding roadside

547
00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:00,760
Speaker 2: where she'd been tossed, discovering her naked and beaten body.

548
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 12: Imagine, so here comes a twenty one mile keep going. Oh,

549
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 12: I know it all. See that turnout right there?

550
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 11: Come not this one, the next one, because you got

551
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 11: to think about it.

552
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 12: He has an eighteen wheeler truck, so he has.

553
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 11: That space to turn around right to go back and

554
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 11: get his trailer. Yeah, and if he goes any farther,

555
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 11: he's into this Comania County.

556
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 12: So he pulls over right now.

557
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 11: You got to understand, the hillside is twenty some years

558
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 11: different than it is now.

559
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 12: So he pulls his truck over. This is where they

560
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 12: found my mom's cigarette butts and stuff.

561
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 11: And so what he basically told me was after he

562
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 11: did all that, he opened up the door and threw

563
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,439
Speaker 11: her down there like a rag doll, right down there.

564
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 12: And if you look let's.

565
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 9: Go out there.

566
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 11: Imagine these trees right here, not over twenty years ago, right,

567
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 11: someone stopping to take a picture. He just happens to

568
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 11: live up on the hill. He stops to take a picture,

569
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 11: looks down this terrain.

570
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 17: And sees my mom.

571
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 11: So your dad pulled over right here, disposed of her.

572
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 10: That he would have had to get over this barrier.

573
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 11: Well, if you think about this, your dad's truck is

574
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 11: an eighteen wheeler. Correct. Your dad is two hundred and

575
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 11: fifty pounds at the time. He knows how to drive

576
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:38,760
Speaker 11: a truck. He can get this close enough, open the door.

577
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 11: Your dad could throw one hundred pounds like it's nothing.

578
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 12: I'm sure tumbled down. Remember I told you the brush marks.

579
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 9: On her cheeks is from this.

580
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 12: It's from this.

581
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 11: So I came up here, I came kicking push, I

582
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 11: came looking for anything.

583
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 12: I could find just out of sheer. I don't know what.

584
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 10: And this is really thick.

585
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 12: Yeah, like I said, twenty years yeah, this is built up.

586
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 11: It probably wasn't as high, you know what I mean,

587
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 11: The toss wouldn't have been as far, and.

588
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 12: They would have never a founder. How would they have founder?

589
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 11: By the grace of God, that you were saying earlier

590
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 11: doesn't exist. He made that man stop and take a picture,

591
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 11: because no one ever stops here, No one, no.

592
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 6: Because there's not really a scenic view either with the river,

593
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 6: because the trees are blocking the view.

594
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 8: To even take a picture like this wouldn't be where

595
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 8: I would stop to take a picture. This isn't scenic

596
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:42,720
Speaker 8: at all.

597
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 11: So what made that person stop to take a picture?

598
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 11: Who lives right up here every day?

599
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 8: That is strange that they would just come down here

600
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 8: and take a picture. If they live here and see

601
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:53,760
Speaker 8: this view every.

602
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 11: Day, Why did that happen? That's one of the questions.

603
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 11: They had nothing to do with it. They didn't help

604
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,280
Speaker 11: your dad or any e both. Why did the universe

605
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 11: tell that person to stop right here? Because it was

606
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 11: time for it to stop. He needed to be stopped.

607
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 8: And if your mom, if your mom's body wasn't found, he.

608
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:16,720
Speaker 11: Would still be out there today.

609
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 1: Hro cre.

610
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 14: Gay was so vaults in our just secrets combinations.

611
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 3: Now we can't check out our hearts.

612
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 1: Talk them tie it in to.

613
00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 2: Time.

614
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: Happy Face is a production of How Stuff Works.

615
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:19,720
Speaker 3: Executive producers are Melissa Moore, Lauren Bride Pacheco, Mangesha Ticketdour

616
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 3: and Will Pearson. Supervising producer is Noel Brown. Music by

617
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 3: Claire Campbell, Paige Campbell and Hope for a Golden Summer.

618
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 3: Story editor is Matt Riddle. Audio editing by Chandler Mays

619
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 3: and Noel Brown. Assistant editor is Taylor Chicoigne. Special thanks

620
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 3: to Phil Stanford, the publishers of the Oregonian Newspaper, and

621
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 3: the Carlisle Family.

622
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 16: Airo Criosh

623
00:39:48,480 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 17: Guys Votillutious