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Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both.

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Speaker 1: Today we're talking about our nation's courts, and that's part

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Speaker 1: of our ongoing look at the state of our democracy

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Speaker 1: on this season of the podcast. On February, President Biden

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Speaker 1: announced his pick to replace retiring Supreme Court Justice Stephen Brier,

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Speaker 1: who'd been appointed by my husband. Justice Brier leaves the

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Speaker 1: Court at the end of this term in June. I

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Speaker 1: was delighted that the President nominated Judge Katangi Brown Jackson.

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Speaker 1: She's a highly respected jurist with impeccable credentials. Will learn

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Speaker 1: more about her as the confirmation process begins, with hearing

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Speaker 1: set for later in March. Before we get to all that, though,

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Speaker 1: I think it's important to take a moment to celebrate

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Speaker 1: the fact that Judge Jackson will be the first African

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Speaker 1: American woman ever to serve on the highest court in

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Speaker 1: our land. And I'll take every chance I can get

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Speaker 1: to celebrate some good news coming from the Supreme Court, because,

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Speaker 1: let's face it, lately, it's been in short supply. If

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Speaker 1: any of us thought our judiciary would protect us from

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Speaker 1: assault on our democracy, so much of which we've witnessed

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Speaker 1: over the past five years. It's not a guarantee at

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Speaker 1: all that our Supreme Court will stand up against the

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Speaker 1: powerful forces attempting to undermine our democracy. Later, we'll hear

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Speaker 1: from Sherylyn Eiffel, the outgoing president of the n double

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Speaker 1: a CP Legal Defense and Educational Fund known as ldf

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Speaker 1: Rylyn will share her views on President Biden's historic nomination

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Speaker 1: and our nation's larger fight for civil and human rights.

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Speaker 1: But first I'm speaking with Dahlia Lithwick. If anyone knows

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Speaker 1: about the Supreme Court, it's Dahlia. She's been reporting on

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Speaker 1: the Court for the online magazine Slate since she's also

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Speaker 1: the host of Amicus, Slate's podcast about the law and

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. You may have seen her on Rachel

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Speaker 1: Maddow or CNN or The Daily Show because she's a

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Speaker 1: popular guest who is so good at cutting through all

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Speaker 1: of the legal mumbo jumbo to explain what's actually going

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Speaker 1: on at the Court and why it matters to everybody.

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Speaker 1: And she's just finished writing a book that I think

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Speaker 1: is terrific. It's called Lady Justice, Women, The Law and

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Speaker 1: the Battle to Save America, and it's due out this fall. Hello, Well,

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Speaker 1: this is thrilling. So let me first welcome you to

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Speaker 1: the podcast, Dahlia. It's such a treat or me to

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Speaker 1: have this chance to talk with you, someone who I

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Speaker 1: really appreciate because of your in depth and very smart

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Speaker 1: analysis of what's happening in the law, what's happening in

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Speaker 1: the courts, particularly the Supreme Court. Let me start, though

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Speaker 1: not at the beginning exactly, but to acquaint our listeners

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Speaker 1: with your background. How did you end up covering the law?

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Speaker 1: Have you always been interested in legal cases, court cases

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Speaker 1: and the like. Well, so, first of all, Secretary Clinton,

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Speaker 1: this is just a huge enormous honor and privilege, So

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Speaker 1: thank you for having me. And I think that the short,

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Speaker 1: and it's going to sound crituitous and pandery answer, is

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Speaker 1: Children's Defense Fund, which you are familiar with. And I

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Speaker 1: was of a cohort. I think in people who graduated

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Speaker 1: in like between nineteen eighty nine and ninety two, all

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Speaker 1: heard Marian right Edelman give their commencement speech, and all

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Speaker 1: of us, like Lemmings, decided we wanted to do what

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Speaker 1: she did. And so even though my undergraduate was entirely

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Speaker 1: in literature, I didn't think of myself as a lawyer

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Speaker 1: at all. I got it in my head that I

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Speaker 1: needed to go to law school and become a children's

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Speaker 1: advocacy lawyer. I was terrible at law school. I dropped

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Speaker 1: out after my one l year. I wrote a fiery

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Speaker 1: note to the dean saying, this is a soulless corporate place,

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Speaker 1: and your monsters worked at Children's Defense Fund, at which

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Speaker 1: point they said, please go back to law school. You're

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Speaker 1: not used to us. So I had to beg my

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Speaker 1: way back in first rule of lawyering, don't put it

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Speaker 1: in writing to the dean. And so then I just

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Speaker 1: really was enchanted with the possibility that law could change

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Speaker 1: the world for people. And then when Slate magazine was

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Speaker 1: being invented in Uh, I was lucky enough to cover

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Speaker 1: first the Microsoft trial for them and then the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 1: and so I think it was a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a sideways thing, but I think it's always, as is

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Speaker 1: the case for so many people. In hindsight, it makes

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Speaker 1: perfect sense. I love that story because, of course it

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Speaker 1: resonates with me on so many levels, being someone else

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Speaker 1: who was immediately enamored of Mary and Wright Edelman when

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Speaker 1: I met her in my first year of law school

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Speaker 1: all those years ago, and had the great privilege of

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Speaker 1: working for her at the Children's Defense Fund, and she

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Speaker 1: had a way of really making the law seem like

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Speaker 1: it was a tool for justice. So you and I

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Speaker 1: have a lot of you know, common experiences, which may

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Speaker 1: then lead us to have some common apprehensions and cotton

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Speaker 1: views about what's happening in our world. And so let's

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Speaker 1: look at the big picture. You know. One of the

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Speaker 1: long term strategies of those who want to turn the

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Speaker 1: clock back on the progress that has been made in

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Speaker 1: civil rights and human rights and women's rights and reigning

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Speaker 1: in unaccountable corporate power and so much else. Is this

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Speaker 1: uh takeover of the courts, something that has been a

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Speaker 1: goal for a very long time, aided and ambetted by

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Speaker 1: those who don't like the changes that we've seen in

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Speaker 1: our country in the last twenty years. And we see

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court as really in the center of these

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Speaker 1: anti democratic battles. So let's get into that. This is

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Speaker 1: an important session for the Supreme Court. In the next

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Speaker 1: few months, we expect the Court to be ruling on

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Speaker 1: everything from reproductive rights to environmental protections to gun safety measures.

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Speaker 1: What are some of the biggest issues that you're following,

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Speaker 1: and then we'll go into a couple of them specifically.

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Speaker 1: I've been covering the Court for twenty years a little more,

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Speaker 1: and this will, without a doubt be the most singularly

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Speaker 1: important term of my career. It already is. We are

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Speaker 1: one year and change into a six three Republican supermajority

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Speaker 1: and the Court, which I naively thought going into the election,

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Speaker 1: would pump the brakes a little. I thought, they don't

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Speaker 1: want to reverse row in June going into elections, they

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Speaker 1: don't want to open the floodgates to open carry concealed

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Speaker 1: carry everywhere. Going into the election, those are wildly unpopular

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Speaker 1: positions if you look at the polls. I was wrong.

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Speaker 1: I thought break pumping was going to be the order

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Speaker 1: of the day, in no small part because I thought

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Speaker 1: Chief Justice John Roberts was in charge of the Court.

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Speaker 1: He's not. This is a six three super majority in

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Speaker 1: when which to the extent that he peels off and

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Speaker 1: votes with the Liberals, he's still on the losing side.

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Speaker 1: So we are looking at a world that is unrecognizable

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Speaker 1: from the Court of even one year ago. And I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure we've integrated that into how we think about

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Speaker 1: the Court, and I'm not sure the what I would

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Speaker 1: call Professor Leah Littman has called it the hashtag yolo

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Speaker 1: you only live once wing of the Court, which is

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Speaker 1: Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito and Neil Gorsich. They're doing

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Speaker 1: the opposite of pumping the brakes. They are all in.

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Speaker 1: They are all in for, as you noted, expanding gun rights.

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Speaker 1: They're all in for, I think, doing away with reproductive freedom.

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Speaker 1: And I think this may be the term we see

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Speaker 1: that they are all in for dismantling the administrative state,

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Speaker 1: pretty much kneecapping agencies that set the policies that we

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Speaker 1: all live under, which guest impact environmental in a significant way.

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Speaker 1: They are all in for a really radical project of

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Speaker 1: expanding religious liberty and what that means. And every one

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Speaker 1: of those issues is on the docket everyone. So I

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Speaker 1: guess this is a long way of saying most of

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Speaker 1: the terms that I've covered, we'd have a big affirmative

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Speaker 1: action case. Maybe we'd have a big affirmative action case

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Speaker 1: and an abortion case. But to have everything every hot

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Speaker 1: button case is extraordinary. And so I guess maybe the

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Speaker 1: flip of your question is what isn't the Court deciding

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Speaker 1: this term? I think this is going to happen at

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Speaker 1: record lightning speeds in an election year, and the Court's

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Speaker 1: sense of its own immunity from any consequences in an

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Speaker 1: election year is one of the things that is most

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Speaker 1: terrifying and chilling to me right now. Well, if you

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Speaker 1: think about it, as you rightly said, so many of

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Speaker 1: the positions that they are promoting and intend to put

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Speaker 1: into decisions, either by reversing past precedent like Roe v.

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Speaker 1: Wade or expanding what I view as a questionable precedent,

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Speaker 1: such as in gun rights under the Second Amendment and

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Speaker 1: so much else, is an agenda that is very popular

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Speaker 1: with the far right of the Republican Party in our country,

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Speaker 1: and that is who they are serving. Remember, you know,

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Speaker 1: some people say, is this the Roberts Court, Is this

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Speaker 1: the Trump Court? I think it's the Federalist Society Court.

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Speaker 1: And the Federalist Society has had a very clear agenda

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Speaker 1: for as long as they've been around, and I have

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Speaker 1: obviously followed them closely, to reverse and it's a reversal

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Speaker 1: of advances that they view as undermining the kind of

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Speaker 1: America that they want to see a return to a patriarchy,

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Speaker 1: a return to keeping people who have opposing views in

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Speaker 1: their place, and that's what we're now watching. So let's

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Speaker 1: start with reproductive rights. This may be an unfair question, Dali,

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Speaker 1: but where do you think the court will land. It's

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Speaker 1: got two major cases, one coming out of Texas, which

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Speaker 1: we've heard a lot about, one coming out of Mississippi,

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Speaker 1: which we haven't heard as much about. What do you

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Speaker 1: think is likely the outcome here? That Texas case, that's

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Speaker 1: s B eight, which is the law that the Court

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Speaker 1: allowed to go into effect at the beginning of September,

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Speaker 1: which means ten of the people of childbearing age in

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Speaker 1: this country have not been able to have an abortion

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Speaker 1: in Texas. That is extraordinary. The Court simply allowed the

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Speaker 1: state of Texas to nullify Roe v. Wade Um, and

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Speaker 1: it was done through this tricky scheme, this enforcement mechanism,

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Speaker 1: where they just put this eight week abortion and ban

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Speaker 1: into effect. Usually, uh, if you want to stop an

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Speaker 1: eight week or twelve week or fifteen week ban, there's

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Speaker 1: somebody to sue, some state actor to sue. But in

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Speaker 1: Texas they cleverly said no state actor is allowed to

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Speaker 1: enforce this ban this band will be enforced by what

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Speaker 1: I think you and I could only call vigilantes. Anybody

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Speaker 1: can report the uber driver, the religious counselor the cousin

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Speaker 1: who drives you to an appointment, and there's no state

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Speaker 1: action and nobody to sue. So there was nobody for abortion.

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Speaker 1: But let me just stop for a second. There is

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Speaker 1: state action. The vigilante gets. Yes, the vigilante gets ten

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars as far as I understand that state money. Amazingly,

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Speaker 1: this issue of who can be sued is the question,

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Speaker 1: the only question that the Supreme Court weighed in on.

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Speaker 1: They waited in on it. Uh, you may recall on

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Speaker 1: the shadow docket, which means that they handed down a

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Speaker 1: secret order in the middle of the night, unsigned, unreasoned,

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Speaker 1: simply one paragraph saying Texas can go ahead and do this.

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Speaker 1: That happened in September, partly in response to massive public blowback.

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Speaker 1: And this goes to I think the court listens when

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Speaker 1: the public is furious. They moved it to the merits docket.

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Speaker 1: They actually heard these arguments, and then they came back

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Speaker 1: with the same answer. This is perfectly fine. The only

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Speaker 1: people who can be sued, the only state actors, as

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Speaker 1: you say, who are implicated in this scheme are a

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Speaker 1: handful of licensing officials. The providers can go ahead and

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Speaker 1: sue them because they have the power to shut down clinics.

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Speaker 1: That suit, by the way, has gone to the Fifth

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Speaker 1: Circuit Court of Appeals, one of the most conservative federal

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Speaker 1: appellate courts, and the Fifth Circuit has somehow sent that

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Speaker 1: to the Texas Supreme Court for more findings. And I

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Speaker 1: think it's just worth comparing, for one little second. When

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Speaker 1: there were COVID restrictions last year that kept people, for instance,

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Speaker 1: from praying, the court made decisions overnight. Here we have

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Speaker 1: the opposite. This can take years as far as the

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Speaker 1: court concerned. There's no urgency here. So that's Texas. And then,

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Speaker 1: as you said, the second cases, Dobbs, this is a

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Speaker 1: Mississippi fifteen week band. Again, it's explicitly unconstitutional viability, which

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Speaker 1: is the benchmark that has been agreed upon by the

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Speaker 1: courts for decades, UH is set at twenty four weeks.

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Speaker 1: Mississippi simply stuck a arrow into the heart of that

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Speaker 1: said we're going to go with the fifteen week band.

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Speaker 1: Come go ahead and sue us. And that was argued

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Speaker 1: this fall at the Supreme Court, and at that argument

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Speaker 1: we don't have an answer. We may not get an

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Speaker 1: answer in Dabbs. Until June it became manifestly clear that

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Speaker 1: that six three supermajority is not just prepared to chip

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Speaker 1: away at Roe v. Wade, which is what we used

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Speaker 1: to say, They're prepared to overturn it out right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what I think too, That's exactly what I think.

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Speaker 1: I think it's gone, and I think in overturning it.

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Speaker 1: The only hope that one can have is that they

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Speaker 1: will somehow overturn it based on Dobbs and not SPA Texas,

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Speaker 1: because this precedent for vigilante um is just so frightening

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Speaker 1: for the rule of law, for anything that we believe

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Speaker 1: represents order due process. But when Rowe is overturned or

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Speaker 1: so totally viscerated that it basically doesn't exist anymore, what

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Speaker 1: do you expect to see at the state level. Well,

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Speaker 1: so this is also grim news. Twenty six states already

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Speaker 1: are threatening to outlaw abortion altogether if Rowe is overturned.

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Speaker 1: I'm a little bit worried about what comes after that.

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Speaker 1: And there's two pieces of that that are worth thinking

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Speaker 1: through one is the precedent that gave us Roe v. Wade.

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Speaker 1: When the Court ridicules that and and they have ridiculed

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Speaker 1: the majority. What they don't, I think, fully appreciate is

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Speaker 1: that it's not just abortion. It is, as you know,

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Speaker 1: the right to contraception in Griswold between married people, and

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Speaker 1: that bucket of privacy, family integrity, autonomy, bodily autonomy, all

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Speaker 1: the stuff that gave us sodomy loss. That's exactly it's

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Speaker 1: it's the whole structure that was built on substance d process,

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Speaker 1: but also a right to privacy is the foundation for

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Speaker 1: so much of what we have seen in the past

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Speaker 1: thirty years develop, as you know, rights that women and

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Speaker 1: men can claim. And it's hard to know how radical

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Speaker 1: this Supreme Court is. I think a couple of members

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Speaker 1: truly are radical. And I wouldn't put it past Thomas

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Speaker 1: and Alito too, you know, go after gay marriage, go

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Speaker 1: after reception. I wouldn't put it past them at all,

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Speaker 1: because they're true believers. Now what I can't figure out

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Speaker 1: is are they true believers for religious reasons? Are they

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Speaker 1: true believers for you know, a broader right wing agenda

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Speaker 1: that they believe is where the country should go back to.

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Speaker 1: This is not clear to me, But the fact is

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Speaker 1: they are true believers, yes, And I think in some

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Speaker 1: sense we can talk about how wildly pro business anti

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Speaker 1: worker this majority is. We can talk about religious liberty

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Speaker 1: and abortion or opposition to lgbt Q rights. Uh, we

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Speaker 1: can talk about voting. It almost doesn't matter, you know,

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Speaker 1: whether it's a business imperative or uh, you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of hot button culture question. The fact is they're all

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Speaker 1: in for all of them, and it may shift. And

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, here's where I say the thing

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Speaker 1: that always makes people's heart stop, which is Brett Kavanaugh

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Speaker 1: is now the media justice on the court. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: that's terrifying. He is one of the most conservative jurists. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but he's an opportunistic conservative. He he's somebody who you know,

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Speaker 1: decided out of Yale law school and being a country

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Speaker 1: club Republican that he was, you know, going to go

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Speaker 1: whichever way the wind was blowing to try, you know,

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Speaker 1: to become a federal judge, and the strongest wind was

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Speaker 1: coming from the right. So there he is. But I

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Speaker 1: don't want to run out of time before we get

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Speaker 1: to another terrifying issue. I hope that our our listeners

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Speaker 1: are not listening to this before they go to bed.

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Speaker 1: That's all I can say. We're taking a quick break.

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Speaker 1: Stay with us. Look, the issue of gun control is

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Speaker 1: on the docket. Can you explain the case in front

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Speaker 1: of the court right now? Because this is crazy, Dahlia.

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Speaker 1: I thought the Heller decision, which is the decision that

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Speaker 1: blew open the Second Amendment, turning it from a well

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Speaker 1: regulated militia amendment to an individual right no matter where,

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Speaker 1: who or how I thought that was so phony, but

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Speaker 1: nevertheless it was decided and became president. Now they just

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Speaker 1: can't find enough reasons to let people who are eager

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Speaker 1: to get a hold of guns get them. Yeah, this

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Speaker 1: this is another place where the Supreme Court took baby

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Speaker 1: steps because they could afford to take baby steps. And

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Speaker 1: once the Supreme Court in Heller, as you say, out

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Speaker 1: of whole cloth, invented this individual right to bear arms

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Speaker 1: in the home to protect yourself. And there is ample

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Speaker 1: history that shows that that was just a completely wrongheaded,

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Speaker 1: veristic readings results oriented at slutely. And then we waited,

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Speaker 1: and we waited, and the court kept getting gun cases

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Speaker 1: that wanted to expand that right and because Anthony Kennedy

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Speaker 1: for so many years, as you know, was the swing vote,

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Speaker 1: they could never get enough justices to agree that they

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Speaker 1: should expand Heller. The minute, Amy Coney barrett Is stated

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Speaker 1: on the court the court was like, you know what,

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Speaker 1: we're all in. Let's do it. We've got the votes. Now.

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Speaker 1: This is a seemingly trivial it's a New York licensing regulation,

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Speaker 1: but it opens the floodgates if the Court were to

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Speaker 1: say that this licensing regulation that says you essentially need

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Speaker 1: to show some cause for being able to carry your

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Speaker 1: gun out of your home. At oral argument, it was

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Speaker 1: truly on skates on stilts performance of the love of guns.

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Speaker 1: Trump's all the idea that we heard from the conservative

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Speaker 1: wing of the court that somehow we are all hobby

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Speaker 1: old when the state doesn't let us carry guns on

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Speaker 1: the subway. Sam Alito wants, I just I mean, I

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Speaker 1: find this, so what are they talking about? It goes

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Speaker 1: to just to to finish the answer. It certainly appears

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Speaker 1: after oral arguments that the Court is going to absolutely

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Speaker 1: allow for massive amounts of carrying of arms everywhere, again

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Speaker 1: wildly in violation of all polling numbers which say that

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Speaker 1: nobody wants people to be able to carry everywhere and anywhere.

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Speaker 1: We witness the results of that every single day in

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Speaker 1: this country. But I think that it goes to something

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Speaker 1: you said about vigilantism. I think that two things happened

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Speaker 1: in that argument that were for me, god smacking and

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Speaker 1: didn't get enough attention. One, as I suggested, was just

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Speaker 1: as Alito feeling unbelievable empathy and compassion for the poor

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Speaker 1: office worker in Manhattan who has to travel by subway

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Speaker 1: at night and doesn't have a gun, and the idea

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Speaker 1: that his life is better if he can shoot people

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Speaker 1: on the subway, and the idea twinned with that that

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Speaker 1: the licensing officials in New York are somehow part of

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Speaker 1: a nefarious plot that the Deep States the deep state

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Speaker 1: deep state, and that they willy nilly give guns to

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Speaker 1: some people but not others. It's very reminiscent of how

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Speaker 1: Justice Gorsuch was talking about the Governor of New York

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Speaker 1: and her really nefarious plot to get people vaccinated. And

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Speaker 1: so I think that there's a real thread here that

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Speaker 1: if at the risk of making all the people who

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Speaker 1: are listening at night need another melatonin, I think the

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Speaker 1: thread to pull on is that they have evinced such

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Speaker 1: mistrust of government itself that the cops can't keep you safe,

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Speaker 1: that the governors of the states want to shut down

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Speaker 1: your church services and COVID all of that, And so

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Speaker 1: I think I just want folks to sort of try

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Speaker 1: to pull these strands together because it sounds so wonky

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Speaker 1: in ductrinal, but deep deeply embedded in this is a

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Speaker 1: mistrust of state actors and a notion that we are

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Speaker 1: all just out to protect ourselves. And I find that

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Speaker 1: so absolutely terrifying. I find this all reminiscent of a

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Speaker 1: kind of wild West dream that somehow, you know, we're

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Speaker 1: going back to when men were men and women were

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Speaker 1: their helpmates, and the strong guy with the gun protected everybody,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the government was messing in your life.

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Speaker 1: They were trying to, you know, take your land and

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Speaker 1: give it to settlers instead of letting you keep your

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Speaker 1: cattle on it. I mean, this is the mindset. Sadly,

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Speaker 1: we are running out of time because I could literally

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Speaker 1: talk to you for hours, as you could tell Dalia,

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Speaker 1: But let me ask you this, what could just an

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Speaker 1: everyday citizen do about any of this? I think there

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Speaker 1: are two things and one of them seems fanciful, but

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Speaker 1: I'm going to say it anyway. Um, after SP eight

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Speaker 1: was allowed to go into law, and I would talk

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Speaker 1: to women's groups, who, really, I think I couldn't believe

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Speaker 1: how quickly the world had changed under their feet. One

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Speaker 1: of the things that I started to tell them was

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Speaker 1: my sort of Yellowstone Park theory of the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 1: which is essentially, when you go camping at some of

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Speaker 1: the national parks, the rangers tell you that if you

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Speaker 1: meet a bear, you have to be larger than you are,

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Speaker 1: which violates all laws of time and space and physics.

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Speaker 1: But what I think it means is you just have

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Speaker 1: to just appear huge. And I do think that being

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Speaker 1: larger than you are does have some effects on the Court.

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Speaker 1: That one of the reasons the Court thinks it can

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Speaker 1: get away with changing religious liberty roles on the shadow

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Speaker 1: docket or taking away abortion for ten percent of the

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Speaker 1: child bearing population on the shadow docket is because they

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Speaker 1: think we don't care. And I think that bear theory,

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Speaker 1: which is oh hell now, is why the Court agreed

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Speaker 1: to hear s B eight on the Merits docket. I

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Speaker 1: think they pull back sometimes, and I think that thirty

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Speaker 1: eight percent approval rating that they started this term with

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Speaker 1: the lowest since polling began. On the court, that matters,

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Speaker 1: and I think that we have to be big. The

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Speaker 1: other thing is, and this is I know, a whole

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Speaker 1: other podcast, but it's just democracy reform. It's the incredibly

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Speaker 1: boring work of filibuster reform. We have a malaportion Senate

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Speaker 1: that doesn't represent millions of people. We have an electoral

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Speaker 1: college you know better than anyone, doesn't represent millions of people.

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Speaker 1: We have a system of democracy set up to take

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Speaker 1: power away from majorities and give them to minorities. And

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Speaker 1: and this is the part that is in my lane.

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Speaker 1: We have a fring court that consistently blesses that the

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Speaker 1: court itself is putting a thumb on the scale of

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Speaker 1: minority rule, certain minority Let's be clear, seminority rule, We're

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Speaker 1: not talking about people of minority races or ethnicities, or

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Speaker 1: religions or points of view. We're talking about a hardcore

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Speaker 1: right wing minority. Correction accepted, enthusiastically seconded. And I think

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Speaker 1: we have on our side not organized around the courts.

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Speaker 1: We're still kind of asleep. I mean, we're still not

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Speaker 1: paying attention but let me end on a hopeful note, Dahlia,

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Speaker 1: because I always try to circle back to that is

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Speaker 1: there any good news in terms of legal decisions or

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Speaker 1: actions that you can point to. So my book is

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Speaker 1: in some sense an answer to the millions of women

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Speaker 1: whose heart's just broke when with Bader against or died

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Speaker 1: and who just felt, you know, who is our gladiator

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Speaker 1: for women in the law, And they're right, but they're

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Speaker 1: so wrong because there are so many women, thousands running

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Speaker 1: around making democracy work. And I actually think women are

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Speaker 1: spectacularly well suited for this legal work. As you know,

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Speaker 1: there is something about this is going to hurt your heart,

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Speaker 1: but the threat of lock her up that is really

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Speaker 1: salient for women because we understand in a way that

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people don't, that we live

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Speaker 1: on the knife edge that law gave us rights and

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Speaker 1: law wants to, as you said, turned back the clock

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Speaker 1: and turn us into channel. And so the women who

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Speaker 1: have organized, whether it's Stacy Abrams, whether it's Fanita Gupta,

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Speaker 1: Becca Heller at the Airport's the day after the travel ban,

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Speaker 1: Robbie Kaplan and Karen Dunn fighting the Charlotte's film Nazis,

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Speaker 1: I could go on. These women, I gotta tell you,

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Speaker 1: they rocked my world, and they don't give up, and

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Speaker 1: so I guess I just end. It's interesting. My New

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Speaker 1: Year's podcast on Amaricus was with Carlyn Eiffel, who is

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00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 1: I'm sure for you too. I'm going to talk to

431
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: her to a north Star, and she reminded me that

432
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: if you are black or brown, or a woman, if

433
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,199
Speaker 1: you are poor, if you are disabled, this was always

434
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: your America. There's a story we like to tell, but

435
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: it was always standing in line to vote, it was

436
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: always having your voter ide rejected. It was always having

437
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: to travel to some clinic hundreds of miles away. And

438
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: so now I guess we all live there, all of us, yes, right,

439
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: and we have to, you know, not only support those

440
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: on the front lines doing this work, as you rightly

441
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: point out, but the many millions and millions of women

442
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 1: whose voices names we may not know, but who deserve our,

443
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: you know, support in every way we can politically and legally. Well, Dahlia,

444
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: I cannot thank you enough for talking with me. Um.

445
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: You and I are in vigorous agreement about what's going

446
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: on in the world, and I think also in vigorous

447
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: agreement that we can't give up, we can't walk away,

448
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: no matter how tired we are. And maybe I could

449
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: just say, I think for really a lot of us,

450
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: we might not have gone to law school if we

451
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: hadn't seen what you were doing. We might not be

452
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: doing the work of protecting children if we hadn't seen

453
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: what you were doing fighting about healthcare, seeing what you

454
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: were doing, and I think we have to just recognize

455
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: the amazing, awesome power all around us and just not

456
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: give up. To read and hear more from Dahlia, go

457
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 1: to slate dot com, where you'll find her frequent court

458
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: reports and her podcast Amicus. We'll be back right after

459
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: this quick break. Even before Dahlia name checked Marylyn Eifel

460
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: at the end of our conversation, I knew I wanted

461
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: to hear from her for this episode. For nearly a decade,

462
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: Sherilyn served as the President and Director Council of the

463
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: n double a CP Legal Defense and Educational Fund called LDF.

464
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: Before that, she was a law professor for many years

465
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: at the University of Maryland, and I have to say

466
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: I envy the students who had the privilege of studying

467
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: with her, because she can make a clear and compelling

468
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: case for just about anything. Last year, Sherylyn was named

469
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: one of Times one most Influential People of the Year,

470
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: and around that time she announced she would be leaving

471
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: her position at the LDF this spring. I am so

472
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: delighted to welcome to the podcast Marylyn Eiffel. Hey, Marylyn, Hi,

473
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: how are you. I'm excellent, I'm so happy to see you.

474
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: Let me start with um one of the big piece

475
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: of news. There's so much news happening it's hard to

476
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: keep track of it all. But you know, obviously, with

477
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: Justice Brier announcing he's retiring from the Supreme Court at

478
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: the end of the term. On February, President Biden announced

479
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: that he would nominate Judge Katangi Brown Jackson. So I

480
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: wanted to ask, do you know her? What do you

481
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: think of this pick? Well, thank you so much, first

482
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: of all, Secretary Clinton for having me on the show.

483
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 1: I'm absolutely thrilled. And yes, this has been a really

484
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: interesting period. Obviously, President Biden had pledged that he would

485
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: um nominate a black woman for an available seat on

486
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. And I have to say, you know,

487
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: I'm a political watcher and a court watcher and had

488
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: prepared myself for the announcement. Um, but I think, like

489
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: particularly many other black women, I was just deeply moved

490
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: in the moment of the announcement, you know, watching Judge

491
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: Jackson and to see her standing before the first you know,

492
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: black woman vice president, and uh, it was it was

493
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: a powerful moment. I know her record, I don't know

494
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: her personally. I feel very comfortable saying her her record

495
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: is extremely moderate. Um So I have been endlessly amused

496
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: by the claims that she has some radical left uh nominee.

497
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, I'm a civil rights lawyer. I like

498
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: my judges to the left. But she certainly obviously has

499
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: all of the qualifications and is well experienced and prepared. Well,

500
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: that's certainly is my perception from having read everything I

501
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: could about her. And you know, let me point out

502
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: that you are in a unique position to not on

503
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: evaluate a Supreme Court nominee, but really the state of

504
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: our justice system and in particular the Supreme Court. You know,

505
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: I'd be curious who or how did you become so

506
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: dedicated to defending our democracy to try and to make

507
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: it work for everybody? Does that come from your upbringing,

508
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: your family? And I have to mention your cousin was

509
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: the wonderful Gwen Eiffel, who educated us, entertained and informed us.

510
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: I had the privilege of being interviewed and meeting with

511
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: her numerous times. Did something happen in the kind of

512
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: extended Eiffel family that really equipped you to be a

513
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,959
Speaker 1: warrior for justice and democracy? Well, you know, um, Secretary Clinton.

514
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: We we were raised I call service the family business.

515
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: We were raised with a very intense kind of gaze

516
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: on the world around us, and certainly were raised with

517
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: a very political lens. We came from very a very

518
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: humble background. Both of our dads their brothers, and we're brothers,

519
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: and we're immigrants, and um, you know, I think they

520
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 1: had some of the immigrants sense of um possibility in

521
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: this country and and really love for the possibilities of

522
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: this country. We grew up watching the news every night.

523
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 1: There were three newspapers in my home, you know, at

524
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 1: all times. And that was fun for us. I mean,

525
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 1: I've I've watched every presidential convention since I was a

526
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: quite a little girl at that time. But I remember,

527
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: and we would be excited when it was coming. It

528
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: wasn't like, oh my god, get the kids to con

529
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 1: We loved it. And you know, my father kept a

530
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: narration going at all times, particularly watching the news, you know,

531
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: kind of critiquing what they were saying. Um. He was

532
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: very into, you know, racial equality and issues of inequality.

533
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: He worked as a social worker up in Harlem. Um.

534
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: And so we just had that lens and I really

535
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: wanted to have some role. I imagined, you know, that

536
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: I could do something in in particularly in civil rights,

537
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: because I've seen so many documentaries and it seemed such

538
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: an exciting and noble work. Uh. And then you know,

539
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 1: I will say like many young black girls, and certainly

540
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: was true for me. Uh, the Watergate hearings were really

541
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 1: really powerful. Now, I don't want you to think that

542
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: some eight year old girl was like, oh, yeah, the

543
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: water Gate here is I I know, you know, it

544
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: was the only thing on TV. And know in those

545
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: days you didn't have five channels. So UM. I remember

546
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: I have many sisters, but my two sisters who were

547
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: at home with us, um, and we would have been

548
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: watching what we call the stories or the soaps. Uh

549
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: in those days. I was too young for that too.

550
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: But in any case, they weren't on because the water

551
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 1: Gate here is were wall to wall on every channel,

552
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: so there was nothing else to watch, so we ended

553
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 1: up watching it and that was where I had the

554
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 1: opportunity to see Barbara Jordan's and I've never really seen

555
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: anyone quite like her, you know, a black woman with

556
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,479
Speaker 1: that measure of power in that kind of sphere where

557
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 1: she was exercising it. And most important for me was

558
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: the power of her voice and a certain moral authority

559
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 1: that you just could not deny. And I loved it.

560
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: And so that's been my commitment in my my entire life.

561
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: And I'm endlessly committed to the possibilities of this country.

562
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:23,879
Speaker 1: You know, I'm in the unique position of many black

563
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: people who see the deep flaws of this democracy, the deep,

564
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: deep flaws, and yet who are committed to working to

565
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: make it better. And I think the moment we're in now,

566
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: Secretary Clinton, is a really powerful and important one. It's

567
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 1: the time where I think so much that people like

568
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 1: me have seen and been talking about for decades is

569
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: being exposed to the larger public. The deep fishers of inequality,

570
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 1: the ongoing embrace of white supremacy, all of these things

571
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 1: didn't just spring from nowhere, and they didn't they weren't

572
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,959
Speaker 1: ushered in by former President in Trump. They have been there,

573
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: and we have not tended to them and confronted them

574
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: forthrightly and recognized how threatening they are to the integrity

575
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 1: of our democracy. I could not agree more with you, Carolyn,

576
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: and I just want to build off of your story.

577
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: It's not enough to say you've been standing up for

578
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: social justice. You've been standing up for civil rights and

579
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,919
Speaker 1: voting rights. You've been standing up for America. That's how

580
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 1: I view your work. So talk to me and our

581
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,919
Speaker 1: our listeners about how as someone on the front lines,

582
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 1: as a litigator, a law professor, as the head and

583
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: director of the Double a CP Legal Defense Fund for

584
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: the last now nearly I guess ten years, you see

585
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 1: where we are when it comes to social justice and

586
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: the courts, and in particular voting rights. I think Secretary Clint,

587
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,839
Speaker 1: you hit the nail on the head, which is one

588
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 1: of the challenges we have face, which I think is

589
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: kind of coming home to roost at this moment, is

590
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: that the work that I've devoted my life too has

591
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:14,399
Speaker 1: largely been seen by the mainstream political realm and by

592
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: certainly by the mainstream media as a kind of a

593
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: side show. I don't. I don't mean that as a

594
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: in a derogatory way, but but but not part of

595
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: the center of conversations about American democracy, about American politics

596
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: and so forth. It's kind of there's the black vote

597
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: over here, there's this thing that maybe happens in the South,

598
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 1: and it's been treated as something collateral to the central

599
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,760
Speaker 1: story about this country. Um. And this has been endlessly

600
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,720
Speaker 1: frustrating for me. One of the things I was determined

601
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: to do when I took over the LEA the leadership

602
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: of the Legal Defense Fund in two thousand and thirteen

603
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: was to center the work of civil rights in the

604
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: conversation about American democracy. And I remember I did the

605
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: commencement address at my my alma mater and why you

606
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: law School, and I said that civil rights work is

607
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: democracy maintenance work. Do not let anyone tell you that

608
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: this work is somehow off to the side. We are

609
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: the ones who have the courage to look without rose

610
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 1: colored glasses at the flaws in our democracy. And how

611
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: do you how do you diagnose the health of your democracy?

612
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: You look at how it works or doesn't work in

613
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: the lives of those who are at the margins and

614
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: those who are at the bottom. It doesn't matter whether

615
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: democracy is working for people who have every advantage right it.

616
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 1: I mean, it matters, but it doesn't tell you whether

617
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 1: the democracy is healthy or not. You have to look

618
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 1: in the difficult places. You have to look at how

619
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: democracy works in the lives of the people that I represent,

620
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: and that will tell you whether it's healthy or not,

621
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: and will reveal to you what the flaws are. And

622
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: to the extent you think that those flaws, you know,

623
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: it's like it's like your house. This is how the

624
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 1: the analogy I've always used is about the foundations of

625
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: your house. Obviously, if there are huge cracks in the foundation,

626
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 1: it matters, and you may even see it and be

627
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 1: alerted to it very quickly, and you will immediately bring

628
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: in the emergency crews. But what about the small cracks

629
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: that accumulate and produce fundamental structural failure. That's what we see.

630
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 1: We're the early warning system. Still, voter suppression didn't just

631
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: start happening a few years ago. I joined LDF as

632
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: a young lawyer, as a voting rights litigator. So how

633
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: is it I was able to never have a dearth

634
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 1: of work, you know, fighting to protect the right of

635
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 1: black people to vote in the South, doing cases in Texas,

636
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,760
Speaker 1: in Arkansas, in Louisiana and so on and so forth.

637
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: How is that possible? So it is the failure to

638
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 1: recognize that this has been a deep flaw that now

639
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: has encompassed the entire country. And as I have been saying,

640
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: what America has to wake up and understand is that

641
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: what is workshopped on those who are most marginalized ultimately

642
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 1: will come for the entire republic. Exactly. That's such an

643
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: important point, Sherlyn. I mean when you were talking about

644
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: the foundation, the image that popped into my head is

645
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 1: now we have literally people around the foundation of your

646
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: house with sledgehammers. They are beating in every way they

647
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: can imagine the foundation of our democracy. And I was

648
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 1: in the Senate when we voted nine to nothing to

649
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: reauthorize the Voting Rights Act. It was then signed into

650
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 1: law by President George W. Bush. We had no idea

651
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 1: when we did at on a bipartisan basis that the

652
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 1: Supreme Court under John Roberts would decide forget the Congress,

653
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 1: forget the evidence and the facts. We don't need some

654
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:17,919
Speaker 1: of this enforcement stuff anymore. Can you explain the impact

655
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: that dismantling the underlying protections by the Supreme Court had

656
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 1: on your work and the in effect green light it

657
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 1: gave to state and local officials across the country. Well,

658
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,280
Speaker 1: I love that you said green light because, as I remember,

659
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: just a day after the decision, I think it was

660
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 1: the Secretary of State of Florida said we're free and

661
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 1: clear now. And and two hours after the decision, the

662
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: Texas story in general, you know, and and the Texas

663
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 1: officials indicated their plan to pass a voter I D

664
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: law that they had been unable to get pre cleared

665
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 1: under section five several years earlier. And preclearance means that

666
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: under the law that was asked if there had been

667
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 1: a history of racial discrimination or ethnic or some other

668
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 1: kind of discrimination, but principally language minority, last minority, and

669
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 1: racial principally racial, that states had to say, okay, we

670
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,479
Speaker 1: want to do this, and the Justice Department could say,

671
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 1: wait a minute, that violates the law, right, yeah, And

672
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,399
Speaker 1: let's take that back to why we needed this structure, right. So,

673
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,320
Speaker 1: and remember the Voting Rights Act has many different components.

674
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 1: The part we're talking about is the part under section five,

675
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,439
Speaker 1: and it is the reason why the Voting Rights Act

676
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 1: has been described as the most um, consequential and successful

677
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: civil rights statute of the big three civil rights statutes

678
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: you know, passed in the in the nineteen sixties, because

679
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 1: it is the only one that came up with a

680
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:49,399
Speaker 1: mechanism for getting at discrimination before it happened. Exactly. So,

681
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: the jurisdictions that were covered by this formula, jurisdictions with

682
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: this history of discrimination, if they wanted to make a

683
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 1: voting change, would have to submit it to a federal

684
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: authority in order to get that change pre cleared. And

685
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: those federal authorities would do would be to evaluate and

686
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: assess whether the planned and the proposed change had a

687
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: negative effect on voting rights or the voting strength of

688
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 1: the Black community, or the Latino community as it or

689
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: Asian American communities as you would have it, And that

690
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 1: evaluation would happen with input from the community. LDF and

691
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,720
Speaker 1: other organizations would weigh in. Then they would either preclear

692
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: it Department of Justice, which is allowed it to go forward,

693
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: or they might ask for additional information, or they might

694
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 1: object to the change. So that was the infrastructure that

695
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: had been in place since nineteen when John Roberts and

696
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: the majority of the Supreme Court in two thousand and

697
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: thirteen decided to uh strike down that preclearance formula, essentially

698
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 1: on the theory that things had changed, that we should

699
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 1: no longer be branding the South with this label, as

700
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: though they were somehow more that the Southern states are

701
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: more racist in some way than states in the North.

702
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 1: In fact, that was kind of the question that John

703
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: Roberts continuously asked, do you believe counts that the South

704
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: is more racist than the North? Of course, the preclearance

705
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: formula didn't just cover the South. It covered the Southern States,

706
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: It covered, most of the day, all the states of

707
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: the old Confederacy, but it also covered three boroughs of

708
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: New York City, It covered counties in California and New

709
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: Hampshire and other places as well. When they lifted that,

710
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: it's important to know what that majority did. They not

711
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 1: only supplanted their judgment for senators and the three House

712
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 1: members that had reauthorized the Act in two thousand six,

713
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,280
Speaker 1: which is enough of a power grab to be alarming.

714
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 1: And I say power grab quite literally because when you

715
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: read the fourteenth and fifteenth Amendment, the enforcement clauses of

716
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 1: those amendments give to Congress the power to ensure that

717
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,439
Speaker 1: the protections of the Fourteenth Amendment, which guarants guarantees equal

718
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 1: protection of laws, and the fifteenth Amendment to the Constitution,

719
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: which protects against a voting discrimination based on race, Congress

720
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 1: is empowered to ensure their guarantees. So they supplanted not

721
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: only the judgment of Senators and House members in two

722
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: thousand six, but every Congress that reauthorized it, and the

723
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:15,760
Speaker 1: Congress in nineteen who recognized the importance of the preclearance formula.

724
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,959
Speaker 1: They said in the Senate report that accompanied the Act,

725
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: they wanted to get at voting discrimination that was happening

726
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,760
Speaker 1: in the moment, but they also said it was designed

727
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: to get at and I'm quoting now ingenious methods that

728
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: might be adopted in the future, which means that the

729
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 1: Congress understood that the efforts of white supremacists to suppress

730
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: the votes of black people was not going to go away,

731
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: that it was likely to do what racism always does,

732
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: its shape shifts and it emerges differently. In nineteen voter

733
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 1: I D wasn't the issue. Even the racist segregationists in

734
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four hadn't thought of what Georgia has now

735
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 1: thought of, which is that you can't provide water to

736
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 1: someone standing online. These are the ingenious methods, however, that

737
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 1: they anticipated would be created in the future, and they

738
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: created an infrastructure in the statute to ensure that black

739
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 1: voters were protected against what they suspected and knew would

740
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 1: be the future methods of voter suppression. So that's what

741
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 1: happened in and it is why after we saw this

742
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 1: profusion of voter suppression laws happening not only throughout the

743
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 1: South but also in places that had never been covered

744
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: by Section five, said hey, hey, now we can do

745
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 1: this too, right, because the preclearance structure actually sent a

746
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: message to the entire country about what practices were discriminatory

747
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: and what practices were not so removing. It actually ended

748
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 1: up metastasizing voter suppression into something that now encompasses the

749
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: whole country and can utilized in order to suppress the

750
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 1: votes of racial minorities, elderly students, disabled people, any pockitive

751
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 1: voters that you think maybe contrary to your ability to

752
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: exercise power. And right now it is the Republicans who

753
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 1: are at the state and local level using these tactics

754
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:26,240
Speaker 1: to enact restrictive laws that LDF is litigating in multiple

755
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 1: courts in Florida and Georgia and Texas. But it is

756
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 1: an uphill battle. So it's a very emboldened and in

757
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: my view, reckless Supreme Court, and it is taking advantage

758
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 1: of the political deadlock that has made Congress not able

759
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: to correct this decision. And the Court knows it can

760
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 1: take advantage of that because nothing's gonna happen. We'll be

761
00:48:50,960 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: right back. Let's really unpack this, Sherilyn, because the people

762
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 1: that were put on the court under Bush and Trump,

763
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 1: We're very clear about their job. They were on a mission,

764
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:28,879
Speaker 1: weren't they, And their mission is to side with those partisan, ideological, religious, corporate,

765
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 1: financial interests that have a very different view of our country.

766
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: And I feel very strongly that it will sadly get

767
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 1: worse despite the best efforts of the LDF and others

768
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: who are standing in the breach. Well, I I can't

769
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: co sign that because we continue to litigate before the court.

770
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 1: You know, we've we've got certain petitions pending and cases

771
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 1: on the docket for next year. But what I can

772
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: say that I think it's important is that the court

773
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 1: also has to function in a way that serves democracy.

774
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 1: Core and critical, as you know around the world, to

775
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:12,919
Speaker 1: any truly functioning and healthy democracy is the rule of law,

776
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 1: a functioning justice system. Um. And one of the things

777
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: that it's most disturbing to me, and you know that

778
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 1: I'm actually thinking about quite a bit as I leave

779
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 1: l DF, is the ways in which we have to

780
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:26,720
Speaker 1: be honest about what are the flaws in our justice

781
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 1: system and how important they are. Once again, these are

782
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 1: the cracks that have to be examined and that have

783
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 1: to be fixed. And the Supreme Court is not does

784
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 1: not sit outside of our need to evaluate and review

785
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: the strength of our democratic structures. They don't sit above

786
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: and on top of our democracy. They are part of

787
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: our democracy. It's one of the reasons Secretary Clinton why

788
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 1: I joined President Biden's Supreme Court Commission, which was a

789
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 1: difficult decision to take. I knew how the commission had

790
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:01,280
Speaker 1: been described and framed. Then, as I said, we litigate

791
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,760
Speaker 1: before the court, and people have, you know, concerns about

792
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: whether the commission was designed to you know, address court

793
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 1: packing and so forth. Ultimately I decided to do it,

794
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 1: and I was the only person on the commission. Uh,

795
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,879
Speaker 1: you know who leads an organization that litigates before the Court.

796
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,359
Speaker 1: Most of the folks were, you know, academics of some kind.

797
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,720
Speaker 1: Because I wanted to make sure that our voice was heard.

798
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: I wanted to be part of that conversation. And I

799
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 1: say this because it's not just the Supreme Court, it's

800
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: our profession in general, and those who are the leaders

801
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: of our profession who actually often lack this lens of

802
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 1: understanding the kind of litigation that we do at the

803
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 1: Legal Defense Fund, the kind of people that we represent,

804
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:44,240
Speaker 1: and how these academic discussions about aspects of even Supreme

805
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:48,359
Speaker 1: Court practice actually affect real people. Uh So, I do

806
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 1: think there's work to do, and it's and the Supreme

807
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 1: Court has got to be part of that work. We

808
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 1: have a right to ask questions about recusal practice on

809
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. We have a right to demand a

810
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: deep financial disclosure. We have the right to ask these

811
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: questions because the Supreme Court is a critical aspect of

812
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: our democratic infrastructure, just as we have the right to

813
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 1: ask that Congress members not trade stocks, or whatever are

814
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 1: the ways in which we want to address it in

815
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 1: the legislature, and whatever are the ways we want to

816
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 1: address the executive and what kinds of ways in which

817
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: we want to hold the president accountable. That's all part

818
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 1: of the democratic infrastructure, and our job as citizens is

819
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: to push and to demand that changes be made that

820
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,839
Speaker 1: strengthen those elements of our infrastructure. And anyone who thinks

821
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,840
Speaker 1: they are above it, whether it's President Trump, or whether

822
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:41,760
Speaker 1: it's the Supreme Court or whether it is the Senate,

823
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: they're they're missing the concept. You know they are they

824
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 1: were either appointed and confirmed or elected to serve democracy. Well,

825
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 1: I could not agree more with you, And I think

826
00:52:55,600 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 1: that's an incredibly powerful description about why every buddy should

827
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 1: care about open debate and argument about what matters and

828
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:09,240
Speaker 1: how best to come together to make our democracy work.

829
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 1: And I know you're writing a book now, Sherylyn, about

830
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:18,359
Speaker 1: how our nation's embrace of white supremacy has impacted our

831
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 1: courts and of course beyond our courts, our country. And

832
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 1: I want you to explain why you're writing this book

833
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 1: at this time, and how, just as with your legal work,

834
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 1: this is for everybody. This is not just for Black

835
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 1: Americans or Brown Americans or Asian Americans. This is for everybody,

836
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 1: and talking about white supremacy should not be seen as

837
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: an attack on white people so much as a wake

838
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: up call about what's at stake in this fight. We

839
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 1: are engaged in to preserve our democracy for everybody. Okay,

840
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 1: so let me see if I can really do this succinctly,

841
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 1: because that's a whole show, you know you just described,

842
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 1: and yes, and it's really really, really important for people

843
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 1: to understand. There are so many allies in this work.

844
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 1: You know, the head of the Legal Defense Fund for

845
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:17,400
Speaker 1: many years was Jack Greenberg. We have always had incredible

846
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 1: allies in the white community, in the Latino community, the

847
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: Asian American community, who have worked with us. And honestly,

848
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 1: it is only when we all are working together that

849
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:29,359
Speaker 1: we're going to be able to strengthen this democracy. So

850
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 1: I am not having a conversation again that is a

851
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 1: niche conversation for one group of people. Let me give

852
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 1: you an example. After the video was released of the

853
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:45,359
Speaker 1: murder of George Floyd, we saw the largest civil rights

854
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 1: demonstrations this country has ever seen. People came out of

855
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 1: their homes in the midst of a global pandemic because

856
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: they were moved by what they saw. These were multi

857
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 1: racial marches in all fift dates of people saying this

858
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 1: cannot be the country that I am associated with. We

859
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 1: cannot allow an officer of the state to kneel on

860
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 1: this man's neck for nine minutes and feel himself so emboldened,

861
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 1: feel so much that he will have impunity, that his

862
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 1: hands are in his pocket and he's staring at the camera.

863
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: It was a powerful moment, incredibly powerful. Was more than

864
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 1: a moment, it was it was months of protest. We

865
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:33,839
Speaker 1: shouldn't lose sight of how powerful that was. I can

866
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 1: tell you that those who are arrayed in opposition to

867
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: justice and equality have not lost sight of it. What

868
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,040
Speaker 1: they saw that day is part of what undergirds the

869
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:46,359
Speaker 1: current movement that you're seeing around the country right now,

870
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 1: Secretary Clinton. That they are framing as an anti critical

871
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 1: race theory movement, but that when you read the statutes

872
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:57,320
Speaker 1: that are being enacted in state after state and introduced

873
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 1: in state after state, they are outlawing the teaching of

874
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 1: material that they say will cause discomfort. This is these

875
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 1: are the actual words in the statute, guilt or anguish

876
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:14,319
Speaker 1: on account of race or sex. Why do I say

877
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 1: this is a response because they saw the power of empathy,

878
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 1: They saw the power of white people seeing something that

879
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 1: is unconscionable. The same thing that white people who were

880
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 1: watching judgment at Nuremberg on CBS in felt when there

881
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:37,360
Speaker 1: was breaking news and it was the images from the

882
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:42,280
Speaker 1: Edmund Pettis Bridge, that these moments in which what wakes

883
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,759
Speaker 1: up in all of us is our shared humanity, is

884
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 1: incredibly dangerous. And so what they don't want is to

885
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:53,720
Speaker 1: have their children learning about the truth of the history

886
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 1: of racism and white supremacy, of the struggle for justice

887
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,839
Speaker 1: in this country, of what has happened in terms of

888
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 1: gender inequality, of lgbt Q inequality, because they don't want

889
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 1: in their children the awakening of that empathy. And I

890
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:12,279
Speaker 1: am sure, Secretary Clinton, that you and all of the

891
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 1: listeners who are listening today can remember moments as young

892
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 1: children when that empathy was woken up in us that

893
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 1: have forever shaped us as human beings. I was speaking

894
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: last night about being in the sixth grade and reading

895
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 1: the diary of Anne Frank, in which I can tell

896
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 1: you I felt guilt, I felt anguish, I felt discomfort,

897
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 1: not because I had done anything, but as a human

898
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 1: being seeing what could happen to other human beings and

899
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 1: connecting with this girl who was the same age as me.

900
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 1: So what they're trying to shut down is that feeling,

901
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 1: because that's the power. And I would never bother to

902
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 1: just write a book cataloging grievances. What I am writing

903
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 1: about is how white supremacy is so sticky you can

904
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 1: attach anything to it that undermines us. She could interfere

905
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 1: and conducted disinformation campaign in the election because of the

906
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 1: ongoing existence of racism and racial discrimination. They could exploit

907
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 1: those divisions, as they did if you read the Muller Report,

908
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 1: by targeting particular populations and voters to produce the result

909
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 1: that they wanted. They were able to exploit it because

910
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 1: of the existing weakness of racism and white supremacy in

911
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:31,600
Speaker 1: this country. And that's what we have to understand. I

912
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 1: wrote a piece several years ago in the in the

913
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 1: Washington Post in which I described racism as a national

914
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 1: security vulnerability. Is it is absolutely that because it is

915
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 1: such a part of us, it is such a part

916
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 1: of this country's foundation, and it lies around so conveniently

917
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 1: and can be picked up and attached to almost anything.

918
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 1: The problem is that we have considered racism this issue

919
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:00,760
Speaker 1: of kind of personal worthiness or not, whether you are

920
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 1: a good person, whether you have racism in your heart,

921
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. That's not what I'm

922
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 1: talking about. I'm talking about the structural and ongoing reality

923
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 1: of white supremacy and it's deployment by those who seek power,

924
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 1: by those who are greedy, by those who want to

925
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,920
Speaker 1: divide us, And to help us understand that unless we

926
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 1: are able to confront this with some courage, it will

927
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 1: continue to be a national security vulnerability that others outside

928
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:34,960
Speaker 1: the country can use, but it will also exploit us internally,

929
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 1: and we have to be courageous enough to confront it.

930
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 1: Black people confronted every day. And I'm asking all of

931
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 1: us who care. I'm not writing this book for Tucker Carlson.

932
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 1: I'm assuming I'm talking to people who care about democracy

933
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:52,439
Speaker 1: and justice right to share with them this thing that

934
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 1: people are so afraid to talk about, but that in

935
00:59:54,880 --> 01:00:00,640
Speaker 1: fact has this inordinate and disproportionate power to ultimately destroy

936
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 1: whoa Sherylynne hurry up and write the book. Well, yeah,

937
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 1: I mean your description of the effort to literally deny, undermine,

938
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 1: eliminate empathy really strikes a chord with me. I cannot

939
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:22,479
Speaker 1: thank you enough, and I just wish you the very

940
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 1: best as you get onto the next chapter of your

941
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:30,200
Speaker 1: extraordinary life of service. Thank you, Marylyn, Thank you so much.

942
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:36,919
Speaker 1: It was an honor. Keep an eye on shery Lynn.

943
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:41,400
Speaker 1: I know she's going to keep making an essential contribution

944
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:49,320
Speaker 1: to protecting, explaining, and strengthening our democracy. Now, before we go,

945
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 1: I want to let you know we've got plans for

946
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 1: a future episode where I answer questions again from listeners

947
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 1: and look, whether it's about the courts or politics, or

948
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:03,920
Speaker 1: be writing a political thriller or comedy, I don't care.

949
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 1: I'm excited for you to send us your questions right

950
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 1: to You and Me Both pod at gmail dot com.

951
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 1: And who knows, I might just read your question on

952
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 1: the show You and Me Both is brought to you

953
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:26,960
Speaker 1: by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen

954
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 1: Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Huma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores,

955
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:39,439
Speaker 1: Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Laura Olan, Lona Vel Moro,

956
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:45,680
Speaker 1: and Benita Zaman. Our engineer is Zack McNeice and original

957
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 1: music is by Forrest Gray. If you like You and

958
01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 1: Me Both, please tell someone else about it, and if

959
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:56,479
Speaker 1: you're not already a subscriber, what are you waiting for?

960
01:01:57,120 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 1: You can subscribe to you and me both on the

961
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:05,520
Speaker 1: Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

962
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:16,920
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and I'll see you next week. M