1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:21,556 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm Mave Higgins and this is Solvable Interviews with 2 00:00:21,596 --> 00:00:25,276 Speaker 1: the world's most innovative thinkers working to solve the world's 3 00:00:25,316 --> 00:00:29,876 Speaker 1: biggest problems. So our guest today is David Kay, the 4 00:00:29,996 --> 00:00:34,476 Speaker 1: United Nations leading voice on freedom of expression. He is 5 00:00:34,476 --> 00:00:37,556 Speaker 1: talking to Jacob Weisberg about one of the more polarizing 6 00:00:37,596 --> 00:00:42,796 Speaker 1: issues of today. So my solvable is democratizing the Internet, 7 00:00:42,956 --> 00:00:48,636 Speaker 1: reclaiming public principles for online speech over the next three 8 00:00:48,676 --> 00:00:52,596 Speaker 1: to five years. Now, being online has never been perfect. 9 00:00:52,836 --> 00:00:54,876 Speaker 1: Even in the early days of the Internet, there were 10 00:00:54,956 --> 00:00:58,676 Speaker 1: some trolls and even some danger, but we used to 11 00:00:58,716 --> 00:01:03,516 Speaker 1: see the Internet as this potential utopia. Today, with so 12 00:01:03,556 --> 00:01:06,636 Speaker 1: many of us living out so much of our lives online, 13 00:01:07,036 --> 00:01:10,796 Speaker 1: and the explosion of disinformation and hate speech and even 14 00:01:10,956 --> 00:01:14,396 Speaker 1: terrorist propaganda, the internet can be a horrible place to 15 00:01:14,476 --> 00:01:18,476 Speaker 1: spend time. Basically, we don't know how to regulate speech 16 00:01:18,516 --> 00:01:21,876 Speaker 1: on the Internet. Here in the US, we hold tight 17 00:01:21,956 --> 00:01:25,476 Speaker 1: to our First Amendment, but we agree that some things 18 00:01:25,556 --> 00:01:29,436 Speaker 1: should be censored, but which things? Right now, we're leaving 19 00:01:29,476 --> 00:01:32,156 Speaker 1: it up to the platforms and the social media companies 20 00:01:32,156 --> 00:01:35,196 Speaker 1: that serve it up. This past decade has seen three 21 00:01:35,196 --> 00:01:39,276 Speaker 1: giant American companies Facebook, Twitter, and Google, which owns YouTube, 22 00:01:39,636 --> 00:01:42,356 Speaker 1: become the way that most of the world experiences the 23 00:01:42,396 --> 00:01:45,716 Speaker 1: Internet and the conveyors of much of its disturbing and 24 00:01:45,876 --> 00:01:50,836 Speaker 1: dangerous material. So how should online speech be governed? What 25 00:01:50,956 --> 00:01:54,516 Speaker 1: law should apply to global companies? Should companies make the 26 00:01:54,596 --> 00:01:59,236 Speaker 1: rules or should governments step in to regulate? Also consider this. 27 00:01:59,716 --> 00:02:02,916 Speaker 1: Freedom in the World is an annual global report on 28 00:02:03,036 --> 00:02:07,276 Speaker 1: political rights and civil liberties, and they reported that last 29 00:02:07,356 --> 00:02:10,356 Speaker 1: year was the eighth consectut it a year of global 30 00:02:10,476 --> 00:02:15,516 Speaker 1: Internet freedom decline. Seventeen governments have approved or proposed new 31 00:02:15,596 --> 00:02:19,596 Speaker 1: laws restricting online media in the name of fighting fake news, 32 00:02:20,076 --> 00:02:25,196 Speaker 1: and eighteen countries have increased surveillance, often skipping any independent 33 00:02:25,236 --> 00:02:29,876 Speaker 1: oversight and pushing to weaken encryption that protects privacy. This 34 00:02:29,956 --> 00:02:34,636 Speaker 1: is nobody's dream Internet. David Kay is working on that. 35 00:02:35,196 --> 00:02:37,836 Speaker 1: For the past five years, he's been the United Nations 36 00:02:37,836 --> 00:02:41,676 Speaker 1: Special Rapporteur of the Promotion and Protection of the Right 37 00:02:41,716 --> 00:02:45,396 Speaker 1: to Freedom of opinion and expression. He has traveled the 38 00:02:45,396 --> 00:02:49,716 Speaker 1: world talking to victims of takedowns and to government censors 39 00:02:49,836 --> 00:02:54,836 Speaker 1: and to platform policymakers. He works to promote human rights law, 40 00:02:55,276 --> 00:02:59,796 Speaker 1: believing that that provides an authoritative global standard for protecting 41 00:02:59,836 --> 00:03:03,916 Speaker 1: freedom of expression online. This is an absorbing conversation on 42 00:03:03,956 --> 00:03:06,596 Speaker 1: a topic that can seem too fraught to tackle, So 43 00:03:06,876 --> 00:03:09,636 Speaker 1: have a listen, David. I wanted to start by asking 44 00:03:09,636 --> 00:03:12,276 Speaker 1: you about your public role. I was delighted when I 45 00:03:12,316 --> 00:03:14,596 Speaker 1: first heard some time ago that the UN had a 46 00:03:14,676 --> 00:03:17,996 Speaker 1: special Rapporteur for freedom of expression. How do you get 47 00:03:18,036 --> 00:03:20,916 Speaker 1: that job and what is it? So the Human Rights Council, 48 00:03:20,916 --> 00:03:23,516 Speaker 1: which is the central body for human rights in the 49 00:03:23,636 --> 00:03:26,516 Speaker 1: UN system, it's a part of the General Assembly. Over 50 00:03:26,516 --> 00:03:31,436 Speaker 1: the last fifty years, basically they've increasingly developed these mechanisms 51 00:03:31,436 --> 00:03:36,036 Speaker 1: of independent experts who monitor different human rights around the world, 52 00:03:36,076 --> 00:03:38,356 Speaker 1: and now it's up to about fifty individuals and a 53 00:03:38,356 --> 00:03:42,516 Speaker 1: few working groups. Some of them handle issues like arbitrary 54 00:03:42,516 --> 00:03:46,396 Speaker 1: detention or summary executions. So mine focuses on freedom of 55 00:03:46,396 --> 00:03:50,156 Speaker 1: expression and I monitor free speech issues around the world. 56 00:03:50,396 --> 00:03:53,996 Speaker 1: You think the internet was better before? Maybe there was 57 00:03:54,036 --> 00:03:57,556 Speaker 1: a kind of golden age or healthy on early days 58 00:03:57,676 --> 00:04:01,796 Speaker 1: when expression with free or people felt more empowered, it 59 00:04:01,836 --> 00:04:05,436 Speaker 1: with more democratic. Is that right? I think that's right, 60 00:04:05,436 --> 00:04:07,396 Speaker 1: although I don't want to overstate it, right. I mean, 61 00:04:07,396 --> 00:04:10,396 Speaker 1: there has always been not only a potential, but a 62 00:04:10,436 --> 00:04:14,556 Speaker 1: reality of harassment online. If you go back to online 63 00:04:14,556 --> 00:04:17,676 Speaker 1: bulletin boards of the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties, there 64 00:04:17,756 --> 00:04:22,236 Speaker 1: was always some sense of a bro culture, a culture 65 00:04:22,276 --> 00:04:26,836 Speaker 1: that excluded women in particular, excluded minorities, that was harassing. 66 00:04:26,876 --> 00:04:29,796 Speaker 1: So that's always been there. Now, back in the old 67 00:04:29,876 --> 00:04:32,876 Speaker 1: days of the internet, this sort of pre social media age, 68 00:04:33,036 --> 00:04:36,436 Speaker 1: we had the blogosphere. So if you had a blog, 69 00:04:36,916 --> 00:04:39,516 Speaker 1: you would write up your blog. You might have let's say, 70 00:04:39,556 --> 00:04:42,596 Speaker 1: fifteen hyperlinks in it, two different people that you also 71 00:04:42,916 --> 00:04:45,716 Speaker 1: like to read, or articles that you've seen, and as 72 00:04:45,756 --> 00:04:49,036 Speaker 1: a reader, you had control of your information environment. You 73 00:04:49,076 --> 00:04:51,276 Speaker 1: would go to a blog and you'd go from one 74 00:04:51,316 --> 00:04:53,636 Speaker 1: link to another to another, till suddenly you won't share 75 00:04:53,636 --> 00:04:56,076 Speaker 1: how you got there, but you had this kind of 76 00:04:56,076 --> 00:05:00,916 Speaker 1: glorious experience of exploration that you've had. It's changed, and 77 00:05:01,036 --> 00:05:03,516 Speaker 1: social media has been a major driver of the change, 78 00:05:03,836 --> 00:05:07,436 Speaker 1: in particular Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, or if you think about 79 00:05:07,516 --> 00:05:11,756 Speaker 1: China and Russia, there versions and now we have a 80 00:05:11,796 --> 00:05:17,116 Speaker 1: centralization of the information environment, and that's a problem. It's 81 00:05:17,116 --> 00:05:19,636 Speaker 1: a problem because the companies which have grown to such 82 00:05:19,796 --> 00:05:24,196 Speaker 1: enormous extent, they have control over the information environment. But 83 00:05:24,276 --> 00:05:27,956 Speaker 1: it also gives repressive governments in particular a kind of 84 00:05:28,076 --> 00:05:33,396 Speaker 1: one stop shopping opportunity to impose restrictions on speech. Right. 85 00:05:33,516 --> 00:05:37,276 Speaker 1: So in repressive countries it makes censorship easy. But in 86 00:05:37,356 --> 00:05:41,196 Speaker 1: countries like ours that don't have censorship, why don't you 87 00:05:41,236 --> 00:05:43,676 Speaker 1: have the same sense of freedom. You have these big 88 00:05:43,716 --> 00:05:49,396 Speaker 1: dominant platforms, obviously, and they're filtering things in certain ways, 89 00:05:49,516 --> 00:05:51,436 Speaker 1: maybe to give you more of what you agree with 90 00:05:51,556 --> 00:05:53,596 Speaker 1: and less of what you disagree with. And those are 91 00:05:53,636 --> 00:05:57,396 Speaker 1: all issues, But is censorship per se an issue? So, 92 00:05:57,516 --> 00:05:59,516 Speaker 1: I mean, I think you're hitting on a really important point, 93 00:05:59,676 --> 00:06:03,756 Speaker 1: which is the companies are global and there's extraordinary variation 94 00:06:03,876 --> 00:06:06,836 Speaker 1: among the places where they operate. So in the United States, 95 00:06:07,196 --> 00:06:10,076 Speaker 1: it's not that I'm concerned about sense ship per se. 96 00:06:10,596 --> 00:06:12,756 Speaker 1: I suppose the way I would put it is in 97 00:06:12,836 --> 00:06:17,716 Speaker 1: democratic societies, I'm more concerned about the rhetoric of harm 98 00:06:18,156 --> 00:06:22,036 Speaker 1: on the internet and the sense that these are spaces 99 00:06:22,036 --> 00:06:24,276 Speaker 1: that need to be protected and in which people need 100 00:06:24,316 --> 00:06:28,316 Speaker 1: to be protected from online harms. And think about it 101 00:06:28,356 --> 00:06:33,516 Speaker 1: in terms of speech harms that increasingly narrows the amount 102 00:06:33,516 --> 00:06:38,996 Speaker 1: of information that we're able to get. It increases, or 103 00:06:39,116 --> 00:06:43,476 Speaker 1: let's say it limits our ability to grapple with ideas perhaps, 104 00:06:43,556 --> 00:06:45,276 Speaker 1: and over time it could get worse and worse, And 105 00:06:45,356 --> 00:06:47,956 Speaker 1: that's to my mind, that's the direction things are heading. 106 00:06:48,156 --> 00:06:51,836 Speaker 1: But that is very different from repressive societies, which are 107 00:06:51,876 --> 00:06:55,516 Speaker 1: in a place like Egypt, for example, or Turkey. They 108 00:06:55,596 --> 00:06:58,116 Speaker 1: might look to Twitter or to Facebook and say to 109 00:06:58,196 --> 00:07:02,596 Speaker 1: the company, your terms of service provide this, They provide 110 00:07:02,636 --> 00:07:05,116 Speaker 1: that there can be no hate speech on your platform. Well, 111 00:07:05,156 --> 00:07:08,556 Speaker 1: we think that this criticism of this minister is hate speech. 112 00:07:08,716 --> 00:07:11,236 Speaker 1: Take it down. So the kind of pressure that's put 113 00:07:11,276 --> 00:07:14,956 Speaker 1: on companies by the repressive societies is very different from 114 00:07:14,996 --> 00:07:17,996 Speaker 1: the kind of pressure we see in the democratic societies. 115 00:07:18,196 --> 00:07:21,276 Speaker 1: But they have changed even in the democratic societies. Like 116 00:07:21,316 --> 00:07:23,676 Speaker 1: a lot of journalists, I'm mainly on Twitter, that's my 117 00:07:23,836 --> 00:07:27,996 Speaker 1: social media platform of choice. And I remember maybe ten 118 00:07:28,076 --> 00:07:31,596 Speaker 1: years ago Dick Costello, who was the CEO of Twitter. 119 00:07:31,676 --> 00:07:34,116 Speaker 1: I remember him saying, he said it a lot publicly. 120 00:07:34,476 --> 00:07:39,036 Speaker 1: Twitter is the free speech wing of the free speech Party, right. 121 00:07:39,156 --> 00:07:42,916 Speaker 1: He meant that Twitter was a place for almost absolute 122 00:07:42,956 --> 00:07:45,676 Speaker 1: freedom of expression short of things that would actually be 123 00:07:45,716 --> 00:07:48,476 Speaker 1: illegal in the United States, protected by the First Amendment. 124 00:07:48,796 --> 00:07:51,956 Speaker 1: They've been under a lot of pressure to not be 125 00:07:52,036 --> 00:07:55,276 Speaker 1: so accommodating a free speech or not to prioritize the 126 00:07:55,396 --> 00:08:00,556 Speaker 1: value of free speech so highly above other values, including 127 00:08:00,756 --> 00:08:04,756 Speaker 1: the important value of not being harassed and not being abused. 128 00:08:05,036 --> 00:08:08,236 Speaker 1: So what's happened on Twitter and other platforms to the 129 00:08:08,276 --> 00:08:11,996 Speaker 1: free speech which they used to at least defend more resoundingly. 130 00:08:12,476 --> 00:08:14,996 Speaker 1: So I would frame it in a way, as you know, 131 00:08:15,116 --> 00:08:18,556 Speaker 1: these were companies that were founded basically fifteen years ago, 132 00:08:18,996 --> 00:08:22,756 Speaker 1: and they were founded by people and then managed at 133 00:08:22,796 --> 00:08:26,156 Speaker 1: sort of the legal and policy level by people who 134 00:08:26,156 --> 00:08:29,596 Speaker 1: were marinated in a First Amendment culture. Right, So they 135 00:08:29,636 --> 00:08:33,476 Speaker 1: came at these issues from the perspective that we need 136 00:08:33,556 --> 00:08:38,196 Speaker 1: robust debate, and think about it also from the business perspective, 137 00:08:38,676 --> 00:08:41,756 Speaker 1: the more content the better, Right, The more content we have, 138 00:08:42,076 --> 00:08:45,796 Speaker 1: the more robust the debate, the better we have an 139 00:08:45,796 --> 00:08:49,916 Speaker 1: opportunity to capture the attention of an audience, which in 140 00:08:49,996 --> 00:08:55,716 Speaker 1: turn translates into more individual users for advertising dollars. So 141 00:08:55,756 --> 00:08:58,116 Speaker 1: there was kind of an alignment of the business model 142 00:08:58,156 --> 00:09:00,836 Speaker 1: with these ideas of free speech. The problem is that 143 00:09:01,036 --> 00:09:02,956 Speaker 1: I mean a couple of things. One is, they were 144 00:09:03,036 --> 00:09:07,356 Speaker 1: extremely slow to recognize that their platforms could also be 145 00:09:07,556 --> 00:09:11,436 Speaker 1: used even in a free sp each environment to exclude voices. 146 00:09:11,756 --> 00:09:15,596 Speaker 1: So there are too many examples to note around journalists 147 00:09:15,796 --> 00:09:20,076 Speaker 1: or celebrities or others with not a great platform being 148 00:09:20,116 --> 00:09:24,916 Speaker 1: harassed off the platform. Basically, that's an exclusion that we 149 00:09:24,996 --> 00:09:27,156 Speaker 1: might not think of in the public square, like if 150 00:09:27,196 --> 00:09:29,756 Speaker 1: you went to a corner in central Park to speak. 151 00:09:30,316 --> 00:09:32,716 Speaker 1: That's not necessary, that's not going to happen, and government 152 00:09:32,796 --> 00:09:35,636 Speaker 1: can't do anything about it. But if the platforms really 153 00:09:35,716 --> 00:09:40,276 Speaker 1: did genuinely want to create space for debate, the availability 154 00:09:40,276 --> 00:09:43,996 Speaker 1: of harassment or the enabling of harassment actually undermine that. 155 00:09:44,596 --> 00:09:46,876 Speaker 1: I think that commitment to a First Amendment culture was 156 00:09:46,956 --> 00:09:49,716 Speaker 1: part of that, and it was very different from the 157 00:09:49,716 --> 00:09:52,796 Speaker 1: way people around the world sought these issues. Which around 158 00:09:52,796 --> 00:09:56,756 Speaker 1: the world and now Facebook's eighty five percent of its 159 00:09:56,916 --> 00:10:00,636 Speaker 1: users are overseas. They don't come from that same environment, 160 00:10:00,676 --> 00:10:03,396 Speaker 1: even in the human rights respecting countries. They just have 161 00:10:03,436 --> 00:10:06,396 Speaker 1: a different vocabulary for thinking about these problems, and their 162 00:10:06,476 --> 00:10:09,756 Speaker 1: vocabulary allows them to deal with some of those harms 163 00:10:09,996 --> 00:10:12,676 Speaker 1: in a way that also creates space for speech. So 164 00:10:12,756 --> 00:10:17,076 Speaker 1: if you're schooled in anti trust and anti monopoly thinking, 165 00:10:17,196 --> 00:10:19,076 Speaker 1: you kind of think, well, the problem here is these 166 00:10:19,076 --> 00:10:22,116 Speaker 1: companies are too big, and they have too much power, 167 00:10:22,236 --> 00:10:25,156 Speaker 1: and there's a movement now either to break them up 168 00:10:25,276 --> 00:10:28,956 Speaker 1: or regulate them big platforms, but there's a voice in 169 00:10:29,276 --> 00:10:31,436 Speaker 1: the back of my head saying, I'm not sure that's 170 00:10:31,516 --> 00:10:35,156 Speaker 1: going to help. Would if we had five pieces of 171 00:10:35,196 --> 00:10:38,676 Speaker 1: Facebook instead of one Facebook, would we be better off 172 00:10:38,716 --> 00:10:42,196 Speaker 1: on this issue? Would those smaller companies be making better 173 00:10:42,236 --> 00:10:44,916 Speaker 1: decisions than no one of them would have as much power. 174 00:10:44,996 --> 00:10:48,076 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, when someone comes up with 175 00:10:48,116 --> 00:10:50,636 Speaker 1: a good solution, you don't just have to give in 176 00:10:50,716 --> 00:10:52,916 Speaker 1: Facebook to do it. You'd have to convince lots of 177 00:10:52,956 --> 00:10:55,156 Speaker 1: companies to do it. So, you know, one of the 178 00:10:55,236 --> 00:10:58,276 Speaker 1: questions I have is whether there are ways to think 179 00:10:58,356 --> 00:11:01,236 Speaker 1: about the platforms not just in terms of breaking them up, 180 00:11:01,516 --> 00:11:04,556 Speaker 1: but in terms of breaking them down. So, in other words, 181 00:11:04,596 --> 00:11:07,316 Speaker 1: how do we bring them closer to the users around 182 00:11:07,316 --> 00:11:11,316 Speaker 1: the world who really need to have access to the companies, 183 00:11:11,436 --> 00:11:13,516 Speaker 1: who need to have access to the rules, who need 184 00:11:13,556 --> 00:11:16,516 Speaker 1: to understand the rulemaking. And then the second part that 185 00:11:16,556 --> 00:11:18,516 Speaker 1: we really need, and this is where I think competition 186 00:11:18,716 --> 00:11:22,796 Speaker 1: is useful, is to have a zone in which you 187 00:11:22,836 --> 00:11:26,076 Speaker 1: could have access to different platforms. Some might be more 188 00:11:26,116 --> 00:11:29,876 Speaker 1: restrictive on speech, some might allow more robust speech. But 189 00:11:29,956 --> 00:11:33,236 Speaker 1: if there's more of a choice and they're somehow interoperable, 190 00:11:33,276 --> 00:11:36,236 Speaker 1: so you can choose, but you can also communicate across platforms. 191 00:11:36,636 --> 00:11:39,516 Speaker 1: That's an approach that actually I think diminishes in some 192 00:11:39,636 --> 00:11:42,596 Speaker 1: respects some of the concerns, because people right now feel 193 00:11:42,636 --> 00:11:45,676 Speaker 1: like if they are harassed off the platform, they don't 194 00:11:45,676 --> 00:11:48,356 Speaker 1: really have anywhere to go. If you're harassed on Twitter 195 00:11:48,356 --> 00:11:51,236 Speaker 1: and Facebook, you're probably not going to go to YouTube 196 00:11:51,276 --> 00:11:54,036 Speaker 1: to be a video creator, But where else do you 197 00:11:54,116 --> 00:11:56,916 Speaker 1: go to have an audience and a voice. That's a 198 00:11:56,956 --> 00:12:00,356 Speaker 1: real problem, maybe less so in the United States than 199 00:12:00,396 --> 00:12:04,356 Speaker 1: in places where the platforms really dominate public space. In 200 00:12:04,476 --> 00:12:09,356 Speaker 1: democratic theory, it's recognized that certain decisions need to be 201 00:12:09,756 --> 00:12:13,836 Speaker 1: insulated from politics. Right you don't want a plebiscite to 202 00:12:13,876 --> 00:12:16,556 Speaker 1: decide what interest rates should be. In fact, you don't 203 00:12:16,596 --> 00:12:20,236 Speaker 1: even want the president or the Treasury Department to decide 204 00:12:20,236 --> 00:12:22,796 Speaker 1: what it interest rates should be. That's why we have 205 00:12:23,156 --> 00:12:26,036 Speaker 1: the FED, you know, It's why we have a system 206 00:12:26,076 --> 00:12:29,276 Speaker 1: of laws and courts to decide guilt or innocence and 207 00:12:29,596 --> 00:12:32,236 Speaker 1: legal questions. We don't want those to be political questions 208 00:12:32,436 --> 00:12:35,356 Speaker 1: at these platforms now, pretty much everything is a political 209 00:12:35,476 --> 00:12:38,796 Speaker 1: question in the sense that they're thinking about public relations, 210 00:12:38,916 --> 00:12:41,676 Speaker 1: about what's going to happen in Congress. Are they going 211 00:12:41,716 --> 00:12:45,116 Speaker 1: to be attacked? Is there a way to insulate some 212 00:12:45,196 --> 00:12:48,436 Speaker 1: of these dish decisions, to create a judicial body to 213 00:12:48,556 --> 00:12:50,316 Speaker 1: decide at the end of the day, what you should 214 00:12:50,356 --> 00:12:53,156 Speaker 1: be allowed to post or not post on YouTube or Facebook. 215 00:12:53,556 --> 00:12:55,996 Speaker 1: I think this is a really important part of the 216 00:12:56,156 --> 00:12:59,436 Speaker 1: debate that is not being discussed very often. Governments have 217 00:12:59,476 --> 00:13:03,156 Speaker 1: been increasingly seeking to reclaim this space, not in the 218 00:13:03,276 --> 00:13:05,476 Speaker 1: United States. This is one of the oddities about the 219 00:13:05,516 --> 00:13:09,756 Speaker 1: moment because Washington is basically dysfunctional. The debate hasn't really 220 00:13:09,996 --> 00:13:12,436 Speaker 1: matured in the way that we've seen it in Europe, 221 00:13:12,836 --> 00:13:15,356 Speaker 1: and so what Europe has been doing is really thinking 222 00:13:15,396 --> 00:13:20,396 Speaker 1: about moving towards a regulatory regime that would require the 223 00:13:20,396 --> 00:13:24,356 Speaker 1: companies to apply their rules. Unfortunately, they're not doing the 224 00:13:24,396 --> 00:13:27,316 Speaker 1: insulation that you're talking about. So, for example, there's a 225 00:13:27,436 --> 00:13:30,916 Speaker 1: relatively recent law in Germany that's called nets DG. They 226 00:13:30,956 --> 00:13:34,396 Speaker 1: basically say to the companies, and it's to the biggest companies, 227 00:13:34,556 --> 00:13:38,276 Speaker 1: you need to regulate your space according to German law. 228 00:13:38,556 --> 00:13:42,236 Speaker 1: But they don't involve public institutions in deciding what is 229 00:13:42,316 --> 00:13:45,636 Speaker 1: and is not German law. They basically say to the companies, 230 00:13:45,916 --> 00:13:49,276 Speaker 1: you're now the adjudicators of German law. That is anti 231 00:13:49,436 --> 00:13:51,876 Speaker 1: democratic at the end of the day, and then the 232 00:13:51,956 --> 00:13:55,756 Speaker 1: companies are subject to the political pressures, whether it's in 233 00:13:55,796 --> 00:13:59,996 Speaker 1: Germany or elsewhere in Europe that don't insulate them from 234 00:14:00,236 --> 00:14:04,076 Speaker 1: the ability to actually perform their job in a neutral way. 235 00:14:04,436 --> 00:14:06,916 Speaker 1: So that's fundamental problem, and I think there are ways 236 00:14:06,956 --> 00:14:09,316 Speaker 1: to move forward and to move away from that, to 237 00:14:09,356 --> 00:14:12,716 Speaker 1: move into a space that we in a way depoliticize 238 00:14:12,716 --> 00:14:15,796 Speaker 1: some of these issues. Where do you see examples of 239 00:14:15,836 --> 00:14:19,716 Speaker 1: that happening. Unfortunately, there aren't too many really good examples 240 00:14:19,796 --> 00:14:23,476 Speaker 1: right now. So we've seen some, i would say problematic 241 00:14:23,516 --> 00:14:27,316 Speaker 1: examples in democratic space. We've seen, for example, the UK 242 00:14:27,436 --> 00:14:29,636 Speaker 1: has something called a white Paper which is kind of 243 00:14:29,676 --> 00:14:33,516 Speaker 1: a plan for legislation in the future, and it doesn't 244 00:14:33,516 --> 00:14:38,316 Speaker 1: distinguish between illegal harm and offenses like things that would 245 00:14:38,316 --> 00:14:41,916 Speaker 1: just be offensive online but are not illegal, and so 246 00:14:41,956 --> 00:14:45,396 Speaker 1: it seems to be leading towards requiring the companies to 247 00:14:45,516 --> 00:14:49,636 Speaker 1: make those decisions, which again is not particularly democratic and 248 00:14:49,676 --> 00:14:53,996 Speaker 1: will move them towards highly political decision making. There is 249 00:14:54,036 --> 00:14:57,796 Speaker 1: an example, a current one, but it hasn't materialized yet. 250 00:14:58,076 --> 00:15:01,156 Speaker 1: It is a task force in France that was commissioned 251 00:15:01,196 --> 00:15:05,196 Speaker 1: by Emmanuel McCrone that actually is thinking, I think, in 252 00:15:05,316 --> 00:15:09,396 Speaker 1: very helpful ways about how to use public institutions to 253 00:15:09,516 --> 00:15:12,236 Speaker 1: deal with these kinds of problems. So, for example, could 254 00:15:12,276 --> 00:15:16,436 Speaker 1: you use public law in order to require the companies 255 00:15:16,836 --> 00:15:20,836 Speaker 1: to be more transparent about their decision making? Because right now, 256 00:15:21,356 --> 00:15:23,556 Speaker 1: as you are suggesting, we look at the companies and 257 00:15:23,596 --> 00:15:25,796 Speaker 1: it seems like they're making their decisions on an ad 258 00:15:25,796 --> 00:15:28,476 Speaker 1: hoc basis. But if we had more access to their 259 00:15:28,516 --> 00:15:32,076 Speaker 1: decision making, almost like a case law of their decisions, 260 00:15:32,396 --> 00:15:36,076 Speaker 1: we at least would be on the same information level. 261 00:15:36,236 --> 00:15:38,516 Speaker 1: We know what they took down and why they took 262 00:15:38,556 --> 00:15:40,636 Speaker 1: it down. Yeah, and in some cases they do publish 263 00:15:40,716 --> 00:15:43,356 Speaker 1: that data, don't they. I know, Twitter makes the point 264 00:15:43,356 --> 00:15:46,796 Speaker 1: of doing that in countries that have censorship laws exactly, 265 00:15:46,796 --> 00:15:49,996 Speaker 1: so they do that, although not at the granular level 266 00:15:50,156 --> 00:15:54,036 Speaker 1: that I'm thinking about. But they do publish transparency reports 267 00:15:54,156 --> 00:15:58,036 Speaker 1: about government demands for takedowns, but they publish very little. 268 00:15:58,516 --> 00:16:00,596 Speaker 1: I mean, they're moving in the direction of publishing more, 269 00:16:00,916 --> 00:16:03,676 Speaker 1: but it's still at an aggregate level, and it's hard 270 00:16:03,716 --> 00:16:07,476 Speaker 1: for researchers to understand the specifics of the case law. 271 00:16:07,596 --> 00:16:11,036 Speaker 1: Let's say they publish little about their own terms of service, 272 00:16:11,196 --> 00:16:14,316 Speaker 1: their own regulation of their own space. If you were 273 00:16:14,316 --> 00:16:16,956 Speaker 1: in charge of this at Facebook, instead of being in 274 00:16:17,036 --> 00:16:22,076 Speaker 1: charge of yelling at Facebook for the UN, what standards 275 00:16:22,596 --> 00:16:26,876 Speaker 1: would you fundamentally apply? These companies are not bound by 276 00:16:26,916 --> 00:16:30,396 Speaker 1: the First Amendment. They're private companies, and there are many 277 00:16:30,396 --> 00:16:32,396 Speaker 1: cases in which I don't think people would argue that 278 00:16:32,436 --> 00:16:35,316 Speaker 1: a First Amendment standard would be appropriate. They don't allow nunity. 279 00:16:35,356 --> 00:16:38,556 Speaker 1: They don't even allow naked breasts on any of these platforms, right, 280 00:16:38,596 --> 00:16:41,876 Speaker 1: and people are pretty comfortable with that. But around political 281 00:16:42,316 --> 00:16:46,356 Speaker 1: decisions around hate speech, everything is highly contested. What are 282 00:16:46,396 --> 00:16:50,556 Speaker 1: the rules which you think should be incumbent to bond them? 283 00:16:50,596 --> 00:16:54,116 Speaker 1: Maybe not legally but ethically. So there's actually been a 284 00:16:54,156 --> 00:16:57,556 Speaker 1: move in the UN and internationally over the last twenty 285 00:16:57,716 --> 00:17:02,156 Speaker 1: twenty five years to impose more responsibilities on businesses. It 286 00:17:02,236 --> 00:17:05,916 Speaker 1: actually developed out of the extractive industries in West Africa 287 00:17:05,996 --> 00:17:09,516 Speaker 1: during the wars of the eighties and nineties. There is 288 00:17:09,676 --> 00:17:13,076 Speaker 1: part of this move. The UN's Human Rights Council actually 289 00:17:13,076 --> 00:17:15,876 Speaker 1: adopted a set of what are called guiding principles on 290 00:17:15,916 --> 00:17:19,116 Speaker 1: business and human rights, and it actually provides some very 291 00:17:19,156 --> 00:17:22,476 Speaker 1: good guidance for the companies. So one measure, for example, 292 00:17:22,916 --> 00:17:26,276 Speaker 1: would be for the companies to conduct something like a 293 00:17:26,356 --> 00:17:30,596 Speaker 1: human rights impact assessment. The companies should do an evaluation 294 00:17:30,716 --> 00:17:33,436 Speaker 1: what does it mean for this country. Let's say a 295 00:17:33,476 --> 00:17:37,676 Speaker 1: country like Ethiopia on which significant press restrictions have been 296 00:17:37,756 --> 00:17:40,996 Speaker 1: lifted and that so there's been a kind of robust 297 00:17:41,036 --> 00:17:43,476 Speaker 1: new debate that started just over the last year, which 298 00:17:43,556 --> 00:17:48,356 Speaker 1: also includes threats of ethnic violence. So going into that environment, 299 00:17:48,756 --> 00:17:53,116 Speaker 1: Facebook or YouTube or Twitter could evaluate if our product 300 00:17:53,196 --> 00:17:57,676 Speaker 1: is available to people in Ethiopia, are the risks of that, 301 00:17:57,836 --> 00:17:59,876 Speaker 1: what are the kind of harms that we could expect, 302 00:18:00,076 --> 00:18:02,196 Speaker 1: and what are the ways that we should mitigate those harms. 303 00:18:02,316 --> 00:18:04,276 Speaker 1: They don't do anything like that right now. They have 304 00:18:04,276 --> 00:18:08,476 Speaker 1: no playbook. If they rooted their rules around human rights standards, 305 00:18:08,716 --> 00:18:12,196 Speaker 1: I think they could better articulate to Ethiopians, for example, 306 00:18:12,596 --> 00:18:16,436 Speaker 1: but also to the world about why their platform should 307 00:18:16,516 --> 00:18:21,356 Speaker 1: be accessible to people in this kind of newly vibrant environment, 308 00:18:21,916 --> 00:18:24,556 Speaker 1: but that it will take steps in order to deal 309 00:18:24,556 --> 00:18:26,836 Speaker 1: with the problems that are naturally going to take place. 310 00:18:26,916 --> 00:18:31,076 Speaker 1: But Facebook just congenitally seems to believe that the solution 311 00:18:31,156 --> 00:18:33,996 Speaker 1: to all the problems caused by Facebook is more Facebook. 312 00:18:34,196 --> 00:18:35,956 Speaker 1: I mean, when you say they should do a kind 313 00:18:35,996 --> 00:18:39,116 Speaker 1: of social impact statement to weigh the pros and cons 314 00:18:39,276 --> 00:18:41,756 Speaker 1: that seems to me what they're totally incapable of doing, 315 00:18:41,796 --> 00:18:45,156 Speaker 1: because they're sort of incapable of seeing how much harm 316 00:18:45,156 --> 00:18:48,836 Speaker 1: they cause, and that on balance, a lot of people 317 00:18:48,836 --> 00:18:51,196 Speaker 1: and a lot of places might be better without it 318 00:18:51,436 --> 00:18:54,276 Speaker 1: than with it. I think what you're articulating in many 319 00:18:54,276 --> 00:18:58,116 Speaker 1: ways is a need for public oversight. So because the 320 00:18:58,156 --> 00:19:01,996 Speaker 1: companies are multinational, and because these are non binding norms 321 00:19:02,036 --> 00:19:05,956 Speaker 1: that I'm describing, there may be a need for government 322 00:19:06,036 --> 00:19:08,956 Speaker 1: to step in and to regulate these kinds of assessments 323 00:19:09,156 --> 00:19:13,356 Speaker 1: actually require them. I actually think that having government regulate 324 00:19:13,476 --> 00:19:17,236 Speaker 1: the content, like having government say to the companies, you 325 00:19:17,276 --> 00:19:20,116 Speaker 1: should allow this kind of speech or disallow this speech. 326 00:19:20,356 --> 00:19:23,236 Speaker 1: To my mind, that's problematic because that will almost always 327 00:19:23,596 --> 00:19:27,836 Speaker 1: move towards repression. However, if there is requirements on the 328 00:19:27,876 --> 00:19:31,556 Speaker 1: companies that are more neutrally oriented, right they're more focused 329 00:19:31,596 --> 00:19:35,396 Speaker 1: on process and on providing information to the public, I 330 00:19:35,436 --> 00:19:39,956 Speaker 1: think that at least pushes the companies to articulate their 331 00:19:40,076 --> 00:19:44,316 Speaker 1: role and to observe their own impact in these countries 332 00:19:44,756 --> 00:19:47,316 Speaker 1: in a way that clearly interferes with their business model. 333 00:19:47,396 --> 00:19:49,436 Speaker 1: But I don't really care about that. I mean, they're 334 00:19:49,436 --> 00:19:52,436 Speaker 1: making enough money as it is they can afford to 335 00:19:52,436 --> 00:19:53,876 Speaker 1: do some of this, and I think they have a 336 00:19:53,916 --> 00:19:58,116 Speaker 1: responsibility to the people and the places that they're engaging. Yeah, 337 00:19:58,156 --> 00:20:03,356 Speaker 1: I mean, India rejected Facebook's Free Basics plan, which is 338 00:20:03,396 --> 00:20:05,996 Speaker 1: a way of providing kind of a minimal Internet i e. 339 00:20:06,356 --> 00:20:10,916 Speaker 1: Facebook only or mostly Facebook only to developing countries where 340 00:20:11,396 --> 00:20:15,796 Speaker 1: most people can't otherwise afford access, and the Indian regulatory 341 00:20:15,876 --> 00:20:19,596 Speaker 1: bology whatever that was, said, no, you can't, you can't 342 00:20:19,596 --> 00:20:21,996 Speaker 1: do it here. It's anti competitive or I forget what 343 00:20:22,036 --> 00:20:25,156 Speaker 1: the exact reasoning was. And that's not only fine, that's 344 00:20:25,316 --> 00:20:27,796 Speaker 1: that might have been a really good move. I mean, 345 00:20:28,276 --> 00:20:32,756 Speaker 1: Facebook is still really quite dominant, especially what's app in India. 346 00:20:32,796 --> 00:20:35,316 Speaker 1: But if you think about Facebook Basics and its use 347 00:20:35,356 --> 00:20:38,356 Speaker 1: in Myanmar, right, So Facebook became the Internet, but it 348 00:20:38,396 --> 00:20:40,756 Speaker 1: was much more than I think. Saying Facebook is the 349 00:20:40,796 --> 00:20:44,436 Speaker 1: Internet understates the role of Facebook. So Facebook was the 350 00:20:44,476 --> 00:20:47,996 Speaker 1: only platform that was available to people basically and everybody 351 00:20:48,036 --> 00:20:50,916 Speaker 1: online was on Facebook, and they were on Facebook Basics. 352 00:20:51,156 --> 00:20:53,876 Speaker 1: But it was also at a moment when the lid 353 00:20:53,916 --> 00:20:56,676 Speaker 1: had come off of the repression of the past, the 354 00:20:56,716 --> 00:21:02,876 Speaker 1: military rule in Myanmar, and the Facebook Basics program became 355 00:21:02,916 --> 00:21:05,756 Speaker 1: the only way people accessed information at all. It became 356 00:21:05,796 --> 00:21:10,196 Speaker 1: the public space, and so in that environment, Facebook had 357 00:21:10,196 --> 00:21:13,396 Speaker 1: an enormous responsibility to deal with the kind of not 358 00:21:13,476 --> 00:21:16,476 Speaker 1: just hate speech in some vague way, but the actual 359 00:21:17,116 --> 00:21:20,236 Speaker 1: incitement to ethnic violence against the Rohinga that the government 360 00:21:20,276 --> 00:21:23,036 Speaker 1: itself was participating in, and they did nothing even when 361 00:21:23,036 --> 00:21:27,076 Speaker 1: they knew about it. So I think imposing some responsibility, 362 00:21:27,116 --> 00:21:30,836 Speaker 1: accountability and framing it around human rights standards, I think 363 00:21:30,876 --> 00:21:34,116 Speaker 1: actually allows us to assess their roles in a fuller 364 00:21:34,156 --> 00:21:37,956 Speaker 1: way and also allows us to measure their ability and 365 00:21:37,996 --> 00:21:41,556 Speaker 1: their willingness to meet these obligations and to protect people 366 00:21:41,556 --> 00:21:44,716 Speaker 1: in the places where they're operating. David, different generations think 367 00:21:44,756 --> 00:21:48,356 Speaker 1: about social media and the Internet really differently. Right, someone 368 00:21:48,676 --> 00:21:52,516 Speaker 1: my age and my mid fifties versus someone in their 369 00:21:52,636 --> 00:21:56,036 Speaker 1: teens to twenties. Absolutely, I mean, I think this is 370 00:21:56,036 --> 00:21:58,156 Speaker 1: one of the points that we need to be thinking about. 371 00:21:58,316 --> 00:22:01,916 Speaker 1: In the sense that social media is dynamic. Right now, 372 00:22:02,236 --> 00:22:05,156 Speaker 1: what we think of as the place for social media 373 00:22:05,236 --> 00:22:09,916 Speaker 1: for social discourse today, which might be Facebook or or 374 00:22:09,996 --> 00:22:13,596 Speaker 1: what's app, it might vary five years from now. So 375 00:22:13,676 --> 00:22:16,076 Speaker 1: I do think that as we think about what principles 376 00:22:16,076 --> 00:22:19,356 Speaker 1: we want to apply, because the principles of what's available 377 00:22:19,436 --> 00:22:23,316 Speaker 1: to people online should be constant, right, they should be 378 00:22:23,356 --> 00:22:26,676 Speaker 1: rooted in freedom of expression values, and if we can 379 00:22:27,036 --> 00:22:29,756 Speaker 1: think of those in a way that allows them to 380 00:22:29,876 --> 00:22:32,836 Speaker 1: transfer as the Internet develops, I mean, that's what we 381 00:22:32,876 --> 00:22:35,476 Speaker 1: need to be aiming towards. Because it's true, it's not 382 00:22:35,516 --> 00:22:38,436 Speaker 1: just the current generations that are using the Internet differently, 383 00:22:38,836 --> 00:22:43,276 Speaker 1: but as time moves on, we're going to see issues, 384 00:22:43,316 --> 00:22:46,236 Speaker 1: We're going to see frameworks, We're going to see platforms 385 00:22:46,236 --> 00:22:48,716 Speaker 1: that we probably can't even envision at the moment. Yeah, 386 00:22:48,756 --> 00:22:51,516 Speaker 1: and the regulators tend to be old and the innovators 387 00:22:51,556 --> 00:22:54,396 Speaker 1: tend to be young. It's very hard to keep up 388 00:22:54,476 --> 00:22:58,836 Speaker 1: with the pace of innovation in this space. Absolutely. I 389 00:22:58,876 --> 00:23:02,836 Speaker 1: mean this is an argument for technologists and for others 390 00:23:02,916 --> 00:23:06,116 Speaker 1: who are really well versed in the technology and in 391 00:23:06,156 --> 00:23:09,356 Speaker 1: the policy around the technology, to be an important part 392 00:23:09,396 --> 00:23:12,036 Speaker 1: of the policy discussion. I mean, they should be involved 393 00:23:12,276 --> 00:23:15,636 Speaker 1: in educating legislators where we've seen time and again, and 394 00:23:15,876 --> 00:23:20,076 Speaker 1: I mentioned a situation in Kenya where a lawyer said 395 00:23:20,076 --> 00:23:23,916 Speaker 1: to me, really accomplished internet lawyer said, it's very hard 396 00:23:24,236 --> 00:23:28,036 Speaker 1: to have these discussions in the Kenyon legislature because the 397 00:23:28,156 --> 00:23:32,516 Speaker 1: legislators don't really understand the technology or the social uses 398 00:23:32,676 --> 00:23:35,356 Speaker 1: of the technology. So we need to have ways for 399 00:23:35,396 --> 00:23:37,156 Speaker 1: those people who understand it to be a part of 400 00:23:37,196 --> 00:23:41,076 Speaker 1: not just the legislature and the legislative process, but also 401 00:23:41,276 --> 00:23:44,476 Speaker 1: the judicial process, because people at the judicial level are 402 00:23:44,516 --> 00:23:48,036 Speaker 1: making decisions. They're having a huge impact on speech online. 403 00:23:48,156 --> 00:23:52,196 Speaker 1: Your solvable references this sense of greater autonomy that people 404 00:23:52,276 --> 00:23:55,476 Speaker 1: had at an earlier stage of the Internet, and I 405 00:23:55,516 --> 00:23:59,076 Speaker 1: know you have some optimism about this getting better rather 406 00:23:59,156 --> 00:24:02,036 Speaker 1: than worse. What else has to happen. I think our 407 00:24:02,076 --> 00:24:06,076 Speaker 1: goals should be realistic. So there are some people who 408 00:24:06,116 --> 00:24:09,916 Speaker 1: say platforms need to eradicate hate speech, for example, or 409 00:24:09,956 --> 00:24:13,676 Speaker 1: eradicate disinformation. I think that's a goal that is not 410 00:24:14,076 --> 00:24:17,516 Speaker 1: particularly achievable, and so I mean I think in terms 411 00:24:17,556 --> 00:24:20,636 Speaker 1: of the way forward, some of the ideas I think 412 00:24:20,636 --> 00:24:23,116 Speaker 1: have to be focused on how do the companies get 413 00:24:23,116 --> 00:24:26,116 Speaker 1: more access to the communities in which they're operating, or 414 00:24:26,156 --> 00:24:31,236 Speaker 1: really put another way, how do the activists, users, individuals, 415 00:24:31,276 --> 00:24:34,756 Speaker 1: civil society and countries where these companies operate. How do 416 00:24:34,836 --> 00:24:39,036 Speaker 1: they get more ownership, like small ownership of the platforms. 417 00:24:39,036 --> 00:24:41,556 Speaker 1: How do they get ownership of the public space. That's 418 00:24:41,636 --> 00:24:43,716 Speaker 1: tricky to do because you don't want to do that 419 00:24:43,756 --> 00:24:45,596 Speaker 1: in a way that gives the government the power to 420 00:24:45,636 --> 00:24:48,916 Speaker 1: capture that process. So I mean, I think that the companies, 421 00:24:49,236 --> 00:24:54,956 Speaker 1: with a significant nudge by governments, should be essentially creating 422 00:24:55,596 --> 00:24:59,556 Speaker 1: non governmental oversight that would be a cross industry that 423 00:24:59,596 --> 00:25:02,836 Speaker 1: would allow evaluation of what they're doing, that would allow criticism, 424 00:25:02,876 --> 00:25:06,236 Speaker 1: and that would allow remedy where they screw it up. 425 00:25:06,676 --> 00:25:09,996 Speaker 1: It's so easy to feel hopeless in face of these 426 00:25:10,036 --> 00:25:14,276 Speaker 1: trends and the gigantism of these platforms. And I wanted 427 00:25:14,276 --> 00:25:17,836 Speaker 1: to ask you, what are some things individuals can do, 428 00:25:17,956 --> 00:25:22,836 Speaker 1: not just to say, protect themselves from harassment, but to 429 00:25:22,876 --> 00:25:27,196 Speaker 1: foster a more democratically healthy internet. Well, I think that 430 00:25:27,196 --> 00:25:29,756 Speaker 1: there are several things that individuals can do in this space, 431 00:25:30,276 --> 00:25:32,996 Speaker 1: although it's very difficult to imagine some of them just 432 00:25:33,036 --> 00:25:36,316 Speaker 1: because the powers seem so great. So one is, in 433 00:25:36,436 --> 00:25:40,796 Speaker 1: terms of thinking about public responses. I think individuals should 434 00:25:40,836 --> 00:25:43,756 Speaker 1: be really considering on their own what they think, and 435 00:25:43,796 --> 00:25:46,556 Speaker 1: so part of this is educating themselves about what they 436 00:25:46,596 --> 00:25:49,356 Speaker 1: think would be the proper role of government in terms 437 00:25:49,396 --> 00:25:53,276 Speaker 1: of its evaluation of the right place to insert the 438 00:25:53,356 --> 00:25:58,716 Speaker 1: public into these tough questions. And once they've decided, Once 439 00:25:58,756 --> 00:26:02,836 Speaker 1: each individual has decided, you know, connect with your legislator, 440 00:26:02,836 --> 00:26:05,196 Speaker 1: whether it's in the United States or anywhere around the world, 441 00:26:05,476 --> 00:26:08,116 Speaker 1: and articulate your viewpoint. I think that's one way to 442 00:26:08,556 --> 00:26:11,636 Speaker 1: kind of claim a sense that we have public ownership, 443 00:26:11,676 --> 00:26:15,156 Speaker 1: that there's some democratic control over these platforms. I think 444 00:26:15,156 --> 00:26:19,236 Speaker 1: another thing that everybody should be doing is really trying 445 00:26:19,236 --> 00:26:22,196 Speaker 1: to consider the information that they're sharing. Right when you 446 00:26:22,236 --> 00:26:25,236 Speaker 1: see information that ends up in your news feed, I 447 00:26:25,236 --> 00:26:28,276 Speaker 1: think it's important not to simply look at the click 448 00:26:28,396 --> 00:26:33,076 Speaker 1: baity headline and just share it. Really you do your best, 449 00:26:33,516 --> 00:26:36,596 Speaker 1: but do your best to understand where that information is 450 00:26:36,636 --> 00:26:39,396 Speaker 1: coming from. Do you think that that information is accurate. 451 00:26:39,716 --> 00:26:42,356 Speaker 1: If you do, you share a way, and you share 452 00:26:42,396 --> 00:26:44,956 Speaker 1: with the sense of your own responsibility. But if you 453 00:26:44,956 --> 00:26:46,956 Speaker 1: have concerns about it, or if you think that this 454 00:26:47,036 --> 00:26:50,436 Speaker 1: might be a part of an incitement to violence, for example, 455 00:26:51,036 --> 00:26:54,516 Speaker 1: you know, forbear, you know, don't share, and and we're 456 00:26:54,596 --> 00:26:58,516 Speaker 1: necessary report to the companies what you think is the problem. 457 00:26:58,796 --> 00:27:00,916 Speaker 1: But those kinds of things, it's not that we are 458 00:27:01,316 --> 00:27:05,836 Speaker 1: disempowered at all. I mean we need to be retaking control. 459 00:27:06,356 --> 00:27:08,196 Speaker 1: I think the third thing I would say is that 460 00:27:08,676 --> 00:27:13,596 Speaker 1: individual Jules particularly let me say Americans, should really understand 461 00:27:14,036 --> 00:27:17,436 Speaker 1: that these are global companies now, and so part of 462 00:27:17,476 --> 00:27:21,716 Speaker 1: that means that our solutions for the US space might 463 00:27:21,756 --> 00:27:24,516 Speaker 1: not work everywhere, and we need to be more mindful 464 00:27:24,556 --> 00:27:27,876 Speaker 1: of the fact that a rhetoric around this, which is 465 00:27:27,876 --> 00:27:30,876 Speaker 1: again rooted in a kind of First Amendment culture, might 466 00:27:30,916 --> 00:27:32,956 Speaker 1: not work everywhere in the world, and that the way 467 00:27:32,996 --> 00:27:36,316 Speaker 1: others want to solve these problems might be fully legitimate 468 00:27:36,356 --> 00:27:39,876 Speaker 1: within even their own democratic space. And until we're able 469 00:27:39,916 --> 00:27:41,956 Speaker 1: to get to that point, and this is particularly true 470 00:27:41,956 --> 00:27:45,796 Speaker 1: for legislators and the companies, I think that we're going 471 00:27:45,836 --> 00:27:48,596 Speaker 1: to continue to face these major problems that the companies 472 00:27:48,596 --> 00:27:51,196 Speaker 1: themselves are going to find very difficult to solve at 473 00:27:51,196 --> 00:27:53,956 Speaker 1: the global scale that they operate. Do you think opting 474 00:27:53,956 --> 00:27:57,276 Speaker 1: out is part of the solution. In the United States, 475 00:27:57,276 --> 00:27:59,196 Speaker 1: it might not be a problem, or in Europe it 476 00:27:59,276 --> 00:28:01,156 Speaker 1: might not be a problem to say I'm just leaving 477 00:28:01,196 --> 00:28:04,716 Speaker 1: Facebook or Twitter or YouTube. I'm going to actually have 478 00:28:04,836 --> 00:28:10,236 Speaker 1: human relationships again. You know, that's totally doable, but outside 479 00:28:10,276 --> 00:28:13,836 Speaker 1: of these environments, it's not exactly possible. So in the book, 480 00:28:13,836 --> 00:28:16,516 Speaker 1: I tell this very brief story of meeting a guy 481 00:28:16,636 --> 00:28:21,556 Speaker 1: in Cambodia who had like, very sophisticated views about government 482 00:28:21,596 --> 00:28:24,676 Speaker 1: repression and I was curious how he had that information 483 00:28:24,716 --> 00:28:28,676 Speaker 1: because the government essentially controls state media in Cambodia, and 484 00:28:28,716 --> 00:28:31,836 Speaker 1: without missing a beat, he set Facebook. So for somebody 485 00:28:31,956 --> 00:28:35,276 Speaker 1: in that environment, he doesn't really have another place to 486 00:28:35,316 --> 00:28:42,356 Speaker 1: go for potentially truthful, potentially disinforming information, but it's essential 487 00:28:42,396 --> 00:28:46,876 Speaker 1: to his understanding of his own civic space. So for him, 488 00:28:47,076 --> 00:28:49,876 Speaker 1: delete Facebook is not really an option. And I think 489 00:28:49,916 --> 00:28:52,276 Speaker 1: we just need to be mindful that it's probably not 490 00:28:52,356 --> 00:28:55,116 Speaker 1: the global solution to this. Yeah, and that's the potential 491 00:28:55,196 --> 00:28:58,676 Speaker 1: that made us optimistic about these platforms in the early days, 492 00:28:58,836 --> 00:29:02,156 Speaker 1: right that it was going to break through censorship walls 493 00:29:02,156 --> 00:29:05,476 Speaker 1: in certain countries that didn't have independent media. Absolutely, And 494 00:29:05,636 --> 00:29:07,596 Speaker 1: I mean that goes back to the very crux of 495 00:29:08,356 --> 00:29:10,516 Speaker 1: what we're talking about the beginning and what the book 496 00:29:10,596 --> 00:29:13,036 Speaker 1: is about. And that is we need to find ways 497 00:29:13,476 --> 00:29:16,396 Speaker 1: to deal with the harms that are caused by all 498 00:29:16,476 --> 00:29:20,236 Speaker 1: the platforms and that we are participating in causing, if 499 00:29:20,236 --> 00:29:24,996 Speaker 1: we're honest with ourselves, without undermining all of the good 500 00:29:25,036 --> 00:29:28,076 Speaker 1: things that the Internet has offered. The optimism that I 501 00:29:28,196 --> 00:29:32,196 Speaker 1: have is that the Internet still provides a place for 502 00:29:32,796 --> 00:29:35,876 Speaker 1: groups that have an affinity for one another, so it 503 00:29:35,916 --> 00:29:39,876 Speaker 1: could be LGBT groups or minority groups, and the risk 504 00:29:40,036 --> 00:29:45,596 Speaker 1: of overdoing the confronting of hate speech and disinformation is 505 00:29:45,636 --> 00:29:47,356 Speaker 1: that we will make it harder for those people to 506 00:29:47,396 --> 00:29:49,996 Speaker 1: find each other. So we want to figure out a 507 00:29:50,036 --> 00:29:52,716 Speaker 1: way to protect those people while dealing with the harms. 508 00:29:52,796 --> 00:29:55,436 Speaker 1: It's not an easy problem to solve, but I do 509 00:29:55,476 --> 00:30:00,356 Speaker 1: think that steps of transparency, public control, human rights principles 510 00:30:00,436 --> 00:30:04,236 Speaker 1: that actually could lead us in the right direction. Optimism 511 00:30:04,396 --> 00:30:07,836 Speaker 1: about the Internet's future. That's how you know you're listening 512 00:30:07,876 --> 00:30:12,036 Speaker 1: to solvable. I was so intrigued here David's argument for it, 513 00:30:12,116 --> 00:30:14,036 Speaker 1: and it was cool to hear too about that person 514 00:30:14,116 --> 00:30:17,236 Speaker 1: he met in Cambodia who needed Facebook to figure out 515 00:30:17,316 --> 00:30:20,556 Speaker 1: what was actually going on in his country. And while 516 00:30:20,596 --> 00:30:23,236 Speaker 1: I myself I don't use Facebook, but I would be 517 00:30:23,276 --> 00:30:27,196 Speaker 1: so lost without WhatsApp and Instagram. I don't know. I'm 518 00:30:27,236 --> 00:30:30,716 Speaker 1: scared of the insanity brought on by the spread of 519 00:30:30,716 --> 00:30:34,316 Speaker 1: fraudulent news and terrorism, but i don't want to go 520 00:30:34,316 --> 00:30:37,276 Speaker 1: without the Internet, so I'm glad to hear of a 521 00:30:37,356 --> 00:30:40,956 Speaker 1: possible way towards a safe and fun online world. Once 522 00:30:40,996 --> 00:30:47,796 Speaker 1: More Solvable is a collaboration between Pushkin Industries and the 523 00:30:47,876 --> 00:30:52,836 Speaker 1: Rockefella Foundation, with production by Laura Hyde, Hester Kant, Laura Sheeter, 524 00:30:52,996 --> 00:30:56,916 Speaker 1: and Ruth Barnes from Chalk and Blade. Pushkin's executive producer 525 00:30:57,036 --> 00:31:01,556 Speaker 1: is Neil LaBelle, Research by Sheer, Vincent, engineering by Jason 526 00:31:01,596 --> 00:31:06,076 Speaker 1: Gambrel and the great folks at GSI Studios. Original music 527 00:31:06,156 --> 00:31:09,796 Speaker 1: composed by Pascal Wise and special thanks to Maggie Taylor, 528 00:31:10,116 --> 00:31:15,116 Speaker 1: Heather Fine, Julia Barton, Carly Mgliori, Jacob Weisberg, and Malcolm Gladwell. 529 00:31:15,716 --> 00:31:19,116 Speaker 1: You can learn more about solving today's biggest problems at 530 00:31:19,316 --> 00:31:24,596 Speaker 1: Rockefeller Foundation dot org slash solvable. I'm Mave Higgins, now 531 00:31:24,676 --> 00:31:25,396 Speaker 1: got solve it.