Speaker 1: This podcast should not be used as a substitute for
Speaker 1: medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek
Speaker 1: independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare
Speaker 1: professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue,
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Speaker 1: views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast
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Speaker 1: represent the opinions of Red Table Talk Productions, I Heart Media,
Speaker 1: or their employees. Each building had that energy. Obviously, the
Speaker 1: energy is created by the people in the building, but
Speaker 1: then the building lent itself to also creating this magical
Speaker 1: energy where you never wanted to leave. In this episode,
Speaker 1: we are going to hear the story of Ugo umba week.
Speaker 1: Ugo had the full wee Work experience. He started his
Speaker 1: journey at the Global coworking Space as a member in
Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen and loved working there so much that
Speaker 1: he got a job as a community manager, working his
Speaker 1: way up to managing multiple buildings, including the West Coast headquarters,
Speaker 1: a big job due to his close work with the
Speaker 1: company's top executives. He was at we Work in the
Speaker 1: early days of hyper growth through its height at a
Speaker 1: forty seven billion dollar valuation, all the way through to
Speaker 1: when things started to decline. He experienced firsthand what it
Speaker 1: was like to manage the impact and fall out of
Speaker 1: a narcissistic leader on the members and employees of we Work.
Speaker 1: Ugo was caught in the balancing act of seeing the
Speaker 1: genius of the concept, the vision of the leader, and
Speaker 1: the chaos and harm that ensue when the grandiosity and
Speaker 1: entitlement got out of control. In this interview, Ugo shares
Speaker 1: his personal story and ex variance of working at we Work.
Speaker 1: His opinions reflect his personal interactions with people at the
Speaker 1: company during the period of time he spent as a
Speaker 1: member and an employee. He is no longer employed with
Speaker 1: we were, nor do his opinions represent the company. So welcome, Ugo,
Speaker 1: Thank you, so happy to have you here. This entire
Speaker 1: story obviously has focused on the founder and you know,
Speaker 1: the personalities involved. To me, what's more important is the
Speaker 1: experience of somebody who's in that system. So welcome, and
Speaker 1: I have to say you probably have one of the
Speaker 1: most well rounded experiences in your journey with we Work.
Speaker 1: He started as a member in the early days then
Speaker 1: you loved it so much you became an employee. So
Speaker 1: talk to us. Paint a picture of what it was like.
Speaker 1: What these we work buildings were like, why was it
Speaker 1: so electric to be there? Great question? Okay, So I'm
Speaker 1: a generally from Boston, Massachusetts, and I was born and
Speaker 1: raised there. I decided that I wanted to do something
Speaker 1: different with myself and not just be a towny. So
Speaker 1: I asked my cousin, who lived in San Francisco, if
Speaker 1: I should just work for her. She started to start up,
Speaker 1: and she was an army of one. She's like, all right,
Speaker 1: we're going to the office. It seems so nice. We
Speaker 1: go inside and we're greeted by what we then called
Speaker 1: the front desk associate. It felt so warm immediately. It's
Speaker 1: my second day in California, ever, and I felt so
Speaker 1: impressed by the greeting and the building. So automatically I
Speaker 1: thought my cousin was hiding money from the family because
Speaker 1: this place was so nice. I was like, what is
Speaker 1: going on? Anyway? We go upstairs to the office and
Speaker 1: everything is glass. You could see people working. There's bear tabs,
Speaker 1: there's a pool table in the middle of the room.
Speaker 1: There's TV and they're actually playing like African music in
Speaker 1: the common space. I said, this is wild, this is
Speaker 1: not where you really work. She took her keys out,
Speaker 1: she opened her office. It had the logo of her
Speaker 1: company name on there, and I was just totally impressed.
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe I was working here. And that was
Speaker 1: before I knew what we Work was, And that was
Speaker 1: my first day at a WE work. I think this
Speaker 1: may be the very first time I heard about a
Speaker 1: space love bombing someone. Usually it's a person love bombing you,
Speaker 1: but it was the space. It's the space, yeah, And
Speaker 1: that's what the beauty of we Work was. It was
Speaker 1: familiar every we work you would go to, whether you
Speaker 1: were in Soul, Rio de Janeiro, Sydney, Boston, or San Francisco,
Speaker 1: where I was, they were all unique but similar, and
Speaker 1: so you felt the love because you felt a community.
Speaker 1: And before we Work, I don't even think I'm Nigerian,
Speaker 1: and so we have our village community, but I don't
Speaker 1: think I heard that word in American culture before we Work.
Speaker 1: All of this energy then lead you to want to
Speaker 1: actually no longer be a member, which for people listening
Speaker 1: to this, a member is almost I mean it's a
Speaker 1: less glamorous word I'm about to use is like a tenant,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean member sounds more belonging, but in essence,
Speaker 1: you paid a monthly fee to access to space and
Speaker 1: use the facilities within a WEE work location. Correct, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a member. So then that could be any of us.
Speaker 1: Any of us could have come and paid that monthly fee,
Speaker 1: but then you actually found a job within the company.
Speaker 1: One subtle red flag in a workplace is when the
Speaker 1: employees are called community or team members or family. In
Speaker 1: a good workplace with fair pay and benefits and realistic expectations,
Speaker 1: it's just a word, but in a narcissistic workplace, it
Speaker 1: can be a way to create a false sense of belonging,
Speaker 1: like you have in a family. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: it may be a workplace that's toxic and triangulated. I
Speaker 1: was a member. I loved it. I asked the people
Speaker 1: at the front desk, hey, this is my resume. And
Speaker 1: at the time I didn't know we work was going
Speaker 1: to expand like that because it was still very, very small.
Speaker 1: I believe I joined when we had about twenty something
Speaker 1: buildings globally. By the time I left, we had hundreds right.
Speaker 1: It just struck me. And again, everything you're saying is
Speaker 1: bringing up these new insights in me. It's it's so
Speaker 1: unusual because they were providing the space, but they also
Speaker 1: needed a workforce, and in a way, you were almost
Speaker 1: like this, I don't know, like this a farm league
Speaker 1: or like a training camp where they could see people
Speaker 1: swinging and playing and I want that one and that
Speaker 1: one because they were actually able to see your energy
Speaker 1: and action, which no employer in the world would ever
Speaker 1: have access to. So that was really unique. So not
Speaker 1: only did you transition from being a member or a
Speaker 1: tenant into actually working for the company, it sounds like
Speaker 1: you really loved your job. Why did you love your
Speaker 1: job there so much? So worked very hard and very
Speaker 1: long hours, but there was an energy in the building.
Speaker 1: As you said, this is the first time of building
Speaker 1: loved on me so hard. As I came into San Francisco,
Speaker 1: each building had that energy. Obviously, the energy is created
Speaker 1: by the people in the building, but then the building
Speaker 1: lent itself to also creating this magical energy where you
Speaker 1: never wanted to leave. One thing. I want to stand too.
Speaker 1: When people work hard, and let's just focus on you,
Speaker 1: because you don't know what other people, I think you
Speaker 1: worked hard. Why what was the carrot on the stick
Speaker 1: where all human I would say money and we work
Speaker 1: was a unicorn at the end of the day. And
Speaker 1: the people who were working at the beginning, in the middle,
Speaker 1: and at the end saw what was formulating in this
Speaker 1: in this equation of community plus shared work space that
Speaker 1: was cheap enough for the average Joe, but good enough
Speaker 1: for a fortune company to share in the space as well.
Speaker 1: And so we worked hard because we thought we were
Speaker 1: in this unicorn company that was going to make us
Speaker 1: a million dollars. Here's what's interesting about that answer around money,
Speaker 1: because that's actually the logical thing. Certainly I was thinking,
Speaker 1: and probably everyone else listening to this is thinking, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: everyone's working real hard because they're making money. But what's fascinating, Hugo,
Speaker 1: is that it was a long game on the money, right,
Speaker 1: It's not like you're working hard and getting paid then.
Speaker 1: So somehow the dream seemed plausible to you, that you
Speaker 1: really were convinced it was a unicorn, because in a
Speaker 1: way you were. And I'm trying to think of this
Speaker 1: like a psychologist would, right, And when we think about
Speaker 1: behavioral science, we think of the rat and the maze.
Speaker 1: The only reason the rat is hustling down the maze
Speaker 1: because there's cheese and it's going to get the cheese
Speaker 1: right away. All of you were willing to say, we're
Speaker 1: convinced there's going to be a whole ton of cheese behind.
Speaker 1: You know, if we keep walking down this maze hard
Speaker 1: every day. We don't know when that will be, but
Speaker 1: we're confident it would be there. So this sense of
Speaker 1: not only confidence, but in the short term, you were
Speaker 1: in this really fun space with really incredible networking opportunities.
Speaker 1: Like I said, I'm going to use the narcissism framework again,
Speaker 1: I'm sort of I love you go because you sort
Speaker 1: of brought this way. I've never thought about something like
Speaker 1: this before. We talked about how the Space love bombed
Speaker 1: you right well, in a way ago, the job did
Speaker 1: something called future fake to you, and future faking is
Speaker 1: when there is a promise like oh, hey, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take care of you someday, or if you
Speaker 1: just do this for me, then down the road we're
Speaker 1: gonna move here, we're gonna get married, or whatever it is. Right,
Speaker 1: that's what they were doing. They're like today, baby, we're
Speaker 1: gonna get married, I'm gonna have a big ring, and
Speaker 1: we're going to live in a big house. So they
Speaker 1: future faked you, which is a classical part of a
Speaker 1: narcissistic relationship. Future faking again, it's it tends to be
Speaker 1: what we see in a narcissistic relationship. It only works
Speaker 1: when the future faking is plausible. Right, So if somebody's
Speaker 1: really down on their lock and then sort of just
Speaker 1: making it living close to the bone and says, hey,
Speaker 1: one day we're going to live in a big mansion,
Speaker 1: You're like, okay, I think you're high. That's not happening.
Speaker 1: So you're sort of looking at them sideways. That's not plausible.
Speaker 1: But what we were created was something where the future
Speaker 1: was plausible. And then what was even more clever was
Speaker 1: everyone was in on the delusion. Everyone, So even if
Speaker 1: you had a moment of doubt, everyone sitting next to
Speaker 1: you was in on it. So then that, as we
Speaker 1: know in human nature is always going to suck people
Speaker 1: back in. And when we look at traditional, just one
Speaker 1: on one narcissistic relationships, if a person is like, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't know they're making these promises. If all your
Speaker 1: friends I don't know, for example, are getting married just saying, oh,
Speaker 1: come on, he's great, we're all getting married. So then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the doubt gets silenced because whatever
Speaker 1: that tribe is around you, whatever that community is around you,
Speaker 1: they're in on it. So you think like, I can't
Speaker 1: be the only one who's who's seeing this right, and
Speaker 1: all of them must be right, and then the beat
Speaker 1: goes on. You know, it makes you seem like you're
Speaker 1: the crazy one, or you're not the intelligent one. When
Speaker 1: a collective of people are saying one thing, or believing
Speaker 1: in one thing, or doing one thing. If you see
Speaker 1: the hole in the plan or you don't believe in
Speaker 1: the plan, you make yourself believe that you're actually the
Speaker 1: dumb one and everyone else is the smart one. So
Speaker 1: with narcissistic behavior, if you have a narcissistic person that
Speaker 1: can breathe life into a story, whether it's true or false,
Speaker 1: if one person doesn't see it, then everyone thinks that
Speaker 1: one person is crazy. And that's life now. And luckily
Speaker 1: I went through that experience, whether it's traumatizing or not traumatizing,
Speaker 1: that I now see that in everyday life. But what
Speaker 1: you're also talking about is collective gas lighting. Right, Usually
Speaker 1: we think of one person gas lighting one person at
Speaker 1: a time. I never said that that never happened kind
Speaker 1: of thing. But what you're talking about is collective gas lighting.
Speaker 1: And there's it is a thousand times more potent when
Speaker 1: it's collective than when it's one on one because you're thinking, Okay,
Speaker 1: I can see that one person is not living in reality.
Speaker 1: Who am I to say ten thousand people are aren't
Speaker 1: living in reality? Right? And so, and that's not that's
Speaker 1: not how people work. So they're all going to think that, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, I'm getting up atty. Who am I to
Speaker 1: think this? And as you said, you go going through
Speaker 1: something like this ends up being the sort of thing that,
Speaker 1: sadly you have to go through sort of the loss,
Speaker 1: the anger, the grief, the trauma. But that's sometimes really
Speaker 1: I'm seeing this in narcissistic survivors of any kind, you
Speaker 1: know who going through these relationships big or small, that
Speaker 1: they say, okay, now I get it, And no one's
Speaker 1: going to be able to convince me otherwise because I've
Speaker 1: seen it first dance like seeing a UFO once the
Speaker 1: aliens invite you in for dinner you're like, no, I
Speaker 1: saw that, and you can tell me there's no such thing.
Speaker 1: It sounds that one of the things that we work
Speaker 1: was really pushing for was hustle. It was even if
Speaker 1: I remember in the signage that I saw and that
Speaker 1: that was depicted in the programs and all of that, hustle,
Speaker 1: hustle harder, all of that in we work. Granted you're
Speaker 1: already working what fourteen sixteen hour days, but what did
Speaker 1: it mean there to hustle harder? I believed hustle harder
Speaker 1: meant get shipped done. No matter what that ship was,
Speaker 1: get it done, move on, and there's now another hurdle
Speaker 1: to get through. So as a community manager, we had
Speaker 1: it back in the early days, back in two thousand fifteen,
Speaker 1: and prior, a community manager was a sales manager, a
Speaker 1: property manager, a events manager. We literally had to do
Speaker 1: everything in that building because we work was focused on
Speaker 1: building out more buildings. So hustle hard and meant do
Speaker 1: everything and do everything in your power to get shipped done.
Speaker 1: So as all of this is happening, you're early on,
Speaker 1: were there any red flags that were starting to pop
Speaker 1: up for you when we started opening up buildings? Basically
Speaker 1: right next to each other in various cities. And the
Speaker 1: whole goal before that was to have each building open
Speaker 1: up at a percent occupancy. How can you do that
Speaker 1: when you're cannibalizing your own build thing that's next door.
Speaker 1: It was very hard to continue the run rate that
Speaker 1: we were experiencing before. So that was my clue, Like,
Speaker 1: I think we're growing too quickly. How is this company
Speaker 1: growing at such a fast pace. You could see a
Speaker 1: few little cracks in the current buildings, but now we're
Speaker 1: opening up so many more buildings. How are we going
Speaker 1: to make sure those buildings don't have the same cracks
Speaker 1: and flaws that the first buildings had. And I still
Speaker 1: believe in the company now, like people need an expensive
Speaker 1: coworking space around the world. But I stopped drinking the
Speaker 1: kool aid in about two thousand nineteen, and that's when
Speaker 1: news articles and social media and regular media started publicizing
Speaker 1: the flaws that we're coming out. So interesting to hear
Speaker 1: you say this because the narcissism person in me snaps
Speaker 1: this into an individual relationship format. Okay, so let's treat
Speaker 1: the entity of where you're working as a person. It's
Speaker 1: like an individual person, right, So imagine you meet someone
Speaker 1: are like, oh wow, how they kind of seem too
Speaker 1: good to be true. But you want it to be true.
Speaker 1: You want you like this, you're attractive this project. I
Speaker 1: want these things to be true. So we suspend disbelief,
Speaker 1: we silence the red flags because you're like, these things
Speaker 1: being true works for me. So I'm going to pretend there,
Speaker 1: or I'm going to go with the idea that they
Speaker 1: could be true, right, not even pretend. And so that
Speaker 1: idea of the high valuation and that the building sites
Speaker 1: being close together, it's really like someone saying like, gosh,
Speaker 1: this is what they do for a living, and yet
Speaker 1: they live in this really nice place and they have
Speaker 1: these cars and it doesn't add up, but it's kind
Speaker 1: of fun hanging with this person. Yeah, so I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna be like, hey, nor in that for now, a
Speaker 1: little bit of a denial. It goes a long way
Speaker 1: what gets interesting to me. And again, this is what
Speaker 1: we see sometimes in narcissistic relationships is one day you
Speaker 1: see things you can't unsee and then you can no
Speaker 1: longer live in denial, and that's when the person in
Speaker 1: the narcissistic relationship gets confused. How Ever, now, in that confusion,
Speaker 1: we might even see the risk of self blame, self doubt, anger,
Speaker 1: and anxiety. So what this was an entity doing this right,
Speaker 1: It wasn't the person, and so a lot of people
Speaker 1: wouldn't even think of that as sort of the narcissistic
Speaker 1: abuse model, but it really fits it perfectly. The same
Speaker 1: thing happens with individual people. I mean, I'm internally crying
Speaker 1: right now for myself because you hit the nail on
Speaker 1: the you know, on the head. It's literally the same psychology,
Speaker 1: and I actually think what you experienced and obviously many
Speaker 1: others in your position was harder because it was an entity.
Speaker 1: Once again, it was believable because there's things, there's banks,
Speaker 1: there's investors, and that you can't make that up, right,
Speaker 1: Just like somebody might have nine credit cards that you're dating,
Speaker 1: and you don't know that they have nine credit cards
Speaker 1: that they're slowly maxing out. You just see that they're
Speaker 1: living large and you're along for the ride. It sounds
Speaker 1: though you're saying that around two nine is when your
Speaker 1: opinion on the company changed, and that's when even the
Speaker 1: rest of us who had nothing to do is we work.
Speaker 1: We're starting to even see things in the news that
Speaker 1: we're making us say what is this. It's almost like
Speaker 1: when family business started becoming public. So I guess when
Speaker 1: the media started voice in their opinions, I was like,
Speaker 1: oh am, I not crazy, because now other people are
Speaker 1: seeing some of the things that I saw in my head.
Speaker 1: Like I said in two thousand and fourteen, when I
Speaker 1: was a member and not even an employee, I stopped
Speaker 1: drinking the kool aid when collectively a lot of other
Speaker 1: people started opening their eyes. And I think though, that
Speaker 1: that's where we see sometimes in these stories of power
Speaker 1: of the media, you know, in an interesting way, it
Speaker 1: even links back to sort of things other movements, even
Speaker 1: like the Me Too movement right where a lot of
Speaker 1: people were going through stuff and then people who felt untouchable,
Speaker 1: you know, like you could not they're they're literally bulletproof.
Speaker 1: Then the media comes along and all these people who
Speaker 1: had suffered for a long time or saying, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: this one and that one and the other one went
Speaker 1: through this too. So I think that's where the media
Speaker 1: has a really interesting power, because like I said, it's
Speaker 1: once the family business comes out into the street, all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, a person might feel really vindicated, saying, oh,
Speaker 1: I did see things the right way. Did the changes
Speaker 1: in the company that were happening around this time? Everything
Speaker 1: is growing almost out of control, and it's becoming clear
Speaker 1: it might be too fast. How did these changes in
Speaker 1: the company affect your mental health in any way? So
Speaker 1: about two eighteen, I did start feeling the pressure at
Speaker 1: the beginning. When you have unattainable goals, like I said,
Speaker 1: you just put someone else to help and figure out
Speaker 1: someone will attain that unattainable goal. Now when it's truly unattainable,
Speaker 1: it was wearing on people. Then. Also, there were too
Speaker 1: many cooks in the kitchen at that time. When we
Speaker 1: got to our height, we had about sixteen thousand employees.
Speaker 1: It's a difference, very big difference. And when you have
Speaker 1: so many people in a kitchen that fits a about
Speaker 1: twelve people, it's hard to keep things on track. And
Speaker 1: so that was really making everyone feel the pressure at
Speaker 1: that point, which makes sense. And you know what I
Speaker 1: would guess, and I can only speculate. I always feel
Speaker 1: like the staff, the rank and file, the employees and
Speaker 1: an organization, they reflect the pressure from above, right, So
Speaker 1: it's like it all transmits down the chain. And whether
Speaker 1: it's the old saying of the fish stinks from the
Speaker 1: head down. I just think it's that that pressure is transmitted. Correct.
Speaker 1: This was very a community system, right, so as the
Speaker 1: pressures were cracking at the top, that was being passed down,
Speaker 1: but you were not getting a clear story on what
Speaker 1: was going on, and none of you understood what those
Speaker 1: balance sheets look like. There was no way. I was
Speaker 1: just telling my friend before this, when you're opening a
Speaker 1: building and when you're running a building and it's occupancy.
Speaker 1: As a community manager, we had to be financially responsible
Speaker 1: for our buildings, so we knew the p m L
Speaker 1: of our buildings inside and out, but not of the corporation.
Speaker 1: Lack of transparency is a feature of all narcissistic relationships,
Speaker 1: whether it's in the workplace or even just two people
Speaker 1: in a relationship. Simply put, narcissistic relationships feel shady. That
Speaker 1: sort of blurs the relationship even more, and it makes
Speaker 1: the self blame, the self doubt, and the confusion even
Speaker 1: worse because you just can't get a straight answer on anything.
Speaker 1: So sure, in the I guess isolated buildings, you are
Speaker 1: drinking your kool aid. You know your building is profitable
Speaker 1: or almost profitable, if your building is not profitable, you
Speaker 1: still think maybe it's just your one building that's not profitable,
Speaker 1: So you know you're living this truth, your own truth
Speaker 1: of I know we work is successful even though my
Speaker 1: building may not be, or I know we work as
Speaker 1: successful because my building is successful at a time when
Speaker 1: people did not know the real balance sheet of the
Speaker 1: parent company, you can keep drinking the koolata and feel
Speaker 1: like everything's fine. In my case, that was me until
Speaker 1: I started managing our headquarters. Then I was privy to
Speaker 1: things that regular community managers were not. So yeah, until
Speaker 1: the media started showcasing we work in a negative light.
Speaker 1: I don't think the majority of we work employees we're
Speaker 1: seeing that. Except for those of us who worked in
Speaker 1: the headquarters and saw it before the media or saw
Speaker 1: it before everyday community managers in various buildings around the world,
Speaker 1: it really makes sense. And I think that's the case
Speaker 1: of many people who work for larger organizations. But in
Speaker 1: this case it was more unique because people still again
Speaker 1: the future faked piece of this is going to pay out,
Speaker 1: and I believe in this thing that's bigger than me. Sure,
Speaker 1: narcissistic relationships are smoke and mirrors, whether it is a
Speaker 1: workplace that's spending money with abandon or an individual who
Speaker 1: has the cars, the clothes, the whole look. Narcissistic folks
Speaker 1: are the peacocks of the personality world. We often believe
Speaker 1: they have the goods because they dress and behave and
Speaker 1: look like they do. So maybe the bigger the feathers,
Speaker 1: the less trusting we should be. My session with Ugo
Speaker 1: will continue after this break. So let's talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about narcissism, because I mean, there's no two ways
Speaker 1: about it, and in fact, any podcast anything I've read,
Speaker 1: all of them use that word. So is this not
Speaker 1: some sort of unique observation that was very much what
Speaker 1: characterized leadership? And so talk to us understanding the limitations,
Speaker 1: But talk to us about Adam Newman. What was so
Speaker 1: compelling about him. Adam Newman was a great influencer. Adam
Speaker 1: knew how to influence people, truly by the words that
Speaker 1: came out of his mouth. He has energy no matter what.
Speaker 1: He's vibrant, and there's something that resonates with everyone when
Speaker 1: he speaks. I don't know if it's because he says
Speaker 1: he lived in a community and so people were longing
Speaker 1: for community once again, being a Nigerian. I grew up
Speaker 1: in a Nigerian community. I grew up in Boston, where
Speaker 1: there's various immigrant communities, whether it's an Indian community, an
Speaker 1: Irish community. But in America, there's no American community. I
Speaker 1: never heard of that word. There's no community managers, there's
Speaker 1: no community anything. And Adam I think, really was the
Speaker 1: first person, in my opinion, that started this whole community
Speaker 1: thing for American society's I think his words really inspired people,
Speaker 1: whether they wanted to be inspired by him or not. Right,
Speaker 1: I find it absolutely fascinating. We're currently in a period
Speaker 1: of history. I think we're caught in the cult of charisma. Right.
Speaker 1: I think I might be the only person on the
Speaker 1: planet that when I meet a charismatic person, they might
Speaker 1: as well be ready to mug me. How scared I
Speaker 1: am of charisa. I am literally the only person who
Speaker 1: feels that way. I am trying to convert people to be,
Speaker 1: you know, to the the fortitude of the non charismatic
Speaker 1: in our midst. Right, it's shocking to me. I think
Speaker 1: Adam Newman is a case study in that. But I
Speaker 1: don't think it's unique to him. That all of tech
Speaker 1: was run on the cults of charisma. Even part of
Speaker 1: the finance, certainly celebrity is run on the cult of charisma.
Speaker 1: And I honestly think that's been around since time immemorial,
Speaker 1: that if we look at historical figures, they were likely
Speaker 1: really charismatic. We just don't have tape of them, right,
Speaker 1: like Alexander the Great, Right, I'm sure, Yeah, I'm sure
Speaker 1: all of these folks were charismatic. They were good speakers.
Speaker 1: They would draw people to them. They knew how to
Speaker 1: hit the zeitguys the energy of the time and sell it.
Speaker 1: Whether or not they believed in it, we will never know.
Speaker 1: All we know is that they could sell a message
Speaker 1: at the right time, you know. And here's the ultimate though.
Speaker 1: In every narcissistic workplace I have ever consulted with ever
Speaker 1: in my career, they all feel cult like, right, That's
Speaker 1: the nature of narcissistic workplaces. There's a CULTI feel. And
Speaker 1: these cult like workplaces capitalize on creating this sense of community, closeness,
Speaker 1: family belonging, and that can then lead people to accept
Speaker 1: lower pay just so they can belong, as well as
Speaker 1: a willingness to ignore red flags or even be shamed,
Speaker 1: just like you would be in a family if you
Speaker 1: talked smack about your family, right, So you're very protective
Speaker 1: of that unit. And people so want to belong that
Speaker 1: no one's going to question it, right. So I think
Speaker 1: that what we were capitalized on intend only are not
Speaker 1: was one of the most primal human needs, which was
Speaker 1: the need to belong. Okay, And in that way, he
Speaker 1: sold it not only to potential members, but also to
Speaker 1: employees and even to investors. And as I look at
Speaker 1: the story, I wonder how much of this is something
Speaker 1: that mattered to the investors that they felt like they
Speaker 1: weren't getting that they had a need to belong And
Speaker 1: even though they weren't setting up their offices and we
Speaker 1: work spaces that being a part of this. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: were chasing the high of the you know, of the money,
Speaker 1: but they were also getting that sense of belonging. And
Speaker 1: this speaks to the machiavellianism of any narcissistic leader. They
Speaker 1: figure out what people want at the most primal level,
Speaker 1: They play on either desire or fear, and they get
Speaker 1: it done. And that's what seemed to happen here. It
Speaker 1: totally happened. And like I said, humans desire community, but Americans.
Speaker 1: We didn't know that. You said your first generation. I'm
Speaker 1: also first generation, so Adam is born in a different country.
Speaker 1: So a lot of countries have this sense of community
Speaker 1: that was missing here. Absolutely. I think though, if you
Speaker 1: spend time in small town America, there is community, right.
Speaker 1: I think that when you look at what we worked
Speaker 1: was we work as an urban company, and so in
Speaker 1: urban centers had lost community. So that's where you were
Speaker 1: going to sell it, because if you walked into some
Speaker 1: small town in the United States, but what are you doing, Like,
Speaker 1: we're good, we got us, we got a church, we
Speaker 1: got a place where people come together. I've spent enough
Speaker 1: time in small towns to say, now, communities already there.
Speaker 1: They don't need beer taps and kombucha and like wild
Speaker 1: Friday night parties to create that. But by putting these
Speaker 1: in urban centers, you actually hit that existential isolation. And
Speaker 1: it's so now there's something that Scott Galloway said when Massa,
Speaker 1: a soft bank, invested in We Work, he said, and
Speaker 1: I'm quoting quote, if you tell a thirty year old
Speaker 1: he is Jesus Christ, he's inclined to believe you. When
Speaker 1: one of the smartest investors in the world valued the
Speaker 1: company more than the Ford Motor Company, then said they
Speaker 1: were not crazy enough and invested billions of dollars more.
Speaker 1: And the press loves you, JP Morgan Chase loves you. C.
Speaker 1: NBC loves you. It is hard not to believe that
Speaker 1: their love is warranted and justified. End. What are your
Speaker 1: thoughts on that? I agree, I totally agree. And once again,
Speaker 1: it takes a narcissist sometimes to create a cult like following.
Speaker 1: If no one believes a narcissist, you can't be a narcissist.
Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about enabling right right exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: So when you tell a particular type of person who
Speaker 1: I am a gay black mail. There's a hierarchy in
Speaker 1: society and cis white males are at the top of
Speaker 1: that hockey. Absolutely. So if someone comes and tells assists
Speaker 1: white male that you have one of the most brilliant
Speaker 1: minds and ideas ever, yeah, they're gonna think they're better
Speaker 1: than every single other person in the world and they're
Speaker 1: going to do whatever they want to do. Enablers are
Speaker 1: the army that make the narcissistic folks possible. And this
Speaker 1: story reminds us that enablers may not just be people
Speaker 1: without power like the employees that we work. In fact,
Speaker 1: the greatest enablers of this particular narcissistic fever dream were
Speaker 1: the most powerful folks of all the bankers and the investors.
Speaker 1: It's a reminder that nothing, all the smarts, all the money,
Speaker 1: all the power in the world are enough to give
Speaker 1: a person clarity on narcissism in any relationship. It's all
Speaker 1: a reminder that anybody can be played, because these dudes
Speaker 1: in this story really were You know what's fascinating is
Speaker 1: I think that you know, charisma is that sort of
Speaker 1: to me one of the core pillars of this story, right,
Speaker 1: How all these people who were really smart about money,
Speaker 1: who knew a lot about business, how they were all
Speaker 1: drawn in by this charisma. And I sometimes wonder how
Speaker 1: much it is that, especially in the business world, where
Speaker 1: people already have so much privilege and power, that they're
Speaker 1: drawn to a characteristic that they themselves don't have. That
Speaker 1: they have other bits of genius, right, they understand finance
Speaker 1: and how to grow money and how to manage it
Speaker 1: and all of that, but the charisma is almost a
Speaker 1: blind spot for them, because again it's something they don't have,
Speaker 1: and I often I sort of observed that about with
Speaker 1: Massa of soft Bank, who I think he saw something
Speaker 1: he didn't have, and it was sort of like, I
Speaker 1: want to be near this, you know, as though it's
Speaker 1: infectious or it'll rub off, or simply that you admire it,
Speaker 1: you know, listen in a well run world, and if
Speaker 1: the smart money would just listen, So smart money, if
Speaker 1: you happen to be listening to this Podcastny smart Money,
Speaker 1: because here's what you want to know is that I
Speaker 1: totally agree that it's the charismatic people who are often
Speaker 1: visionary in a way that's so grandiose that none of
Speaker 1: us what we cant stop ourselves saying, nobody wants like
Speaker 1: to stay in someone's house and call it a hotel,
Speaker 1: you know, like nobody wants to do that. Nobody wants
Speaker 1: like to get into a stranger's car. So these charismatic
Speaker 1: leaders were visionary. But what the smart money again needs
Speaker 1: to figure out is a way to get the baton
Speaker 1: from that visionary person and then get the right kind
Speaker 1: of financial We're with all around it, yes, right exactly.
Speaker 1: So It's like I think, actually, sometimes seven year olds
Speaker 1: have great ideas. I don't know that I want to
Speaker 1: give him a seat on the stock exchange, but sort
Speaker 1: of like, all right, seven year old, you know what
Speaker 1: seven year olds wants. This actually might be a winner.
Speaker 1: But this has happened a couple of times now, a
Speaker 1: couple of times the charismatic folks have gotten something over
Speaker 1: the finish line, but have still been removed as CEO.
Speaker 1: But I think that we've overestimated how much that cult
Speaker 1: of personality and charisma can actually do the day to
Speaker 1: day stuff of running a business. Again, charisma works great
Speaker 1: when you're first dating. Charisma is interesting in bed. What
Speaker 1: charisma is not good at is the day to day
Speaker 1: drudgery that's involved in running a massive company. And it's
Speaker 1: at that point p and L statements, all of that,
Speaker 1: it's sort of like, don't show me this. This is
Speaker 1: puncturing the grandiose solution that seems to be something that
Speaker 1: if somehow the charismatic people and the dull, smart money
Speaker 1: people could figure out a way to play nice, a
Speaker 1: lot of people would be making a lot of money.
Speaker 1: It's hard, it's hard to tame the charismatic actor in that.
Speaker 1: I mean that's true in every facet of life, right,
Speaker 1: like if the Democrats and Republicans would listen to each other,
Speaker 1: as the charismatic and the pragmatic people would listen to
Speaker 1: each other, the old people and the young people, the
Speaker 1: minorities and the majority. But it's not like that, Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: no it's not. And you nailed it. I loved how
Speaker 1: you just said, beautifully, Ugo. The charismatic and the pragmatic,
Speaker 1: it's those two groups if you could get them into bed,
Speaker 1: but god knows, they never sleep together ever. So I
Speaker 1: think it's always the charismatic and the enablers. And I
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe the bagmatic people aren't having sex. I
Speaker 1: think yes. The narcissistic people create a culture that people
Speaker 1: want to believe it and people want to follow right right.
Speaker 1: And the challenges though that ultimately the narcissistic individual is
Speaker 1: very self serving and and sort of ingrained in them
Speaker 1: is the willingness to throw everyone under the bus so
Speaker 1: they can walk off with the most toys. Right. This
Speaker 1: is not the person who is going to, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of go down with the ship. They're going to say,
Speaker 1: give me the best life vote and I'm out of here.
Speaker 1: So I think that challenge is that I don't disagree
Speaker 1: with you, and we know there's a lot of work
Speaker 1: on this. Narcissism is correlated with leadership. Narcissistic people are
Speaker 1: more likely to pursue leadership. But what we also know
Speaker 1: is that toxic leadership can bring down a company. And
Speaker 1: we've seen it happen that was and thousands of thousands
Speaker 1: of times, whether they're small businesses, big businesses, multinational businesses,
Speaker 1: it's all the same, you know, Hugo, tell me what
Speaker 1: you think you said. I have my definition. Tell me
Speaker 1: what you believe narcissistic behavior to be. Narcissists by my
Speaker 1: own definition, is someone who has extremely high self worth
Speaker 1: of themselves, but they also have low regard for other
Speaker 1: people and their opinions and their feelings, which half the
Speaker 1: time is probably more accurate than that own narcissistic view.
Speaker 1: And so the problem is if we take away that,
Speaker 1: you know, what you're saying is no regard for others.
Speaker 1: So I would say that's probably a lack of empathy
Speaker 1: for others. When you have somebody who has high regard
Speaker 1: for themselves and values themselves and thinks well of themselves
Speaker 1: and accounts for other people's opinions and input, that's just
Speaker 1: called a really healthy person, right, I mean, that's what
Speaker 1: that is. Narcissism doesn't get to get cut up like
Speaker 1: it's the whole package of, you know, having an almost
Speaker 1: delusional and distorted sense of self esteem that's not based
Speaker 1: in truths, plus their lack of regard for others. And
Speaker 1: what's tricky in the story we've been talking about, the
Speaker 1: narcissistic leader at the top of this actually had some
Speaker 1: real gifts. I mean, say what you will, say what
Speaker 1: you will, But as I read the story, I'd say
Speaker 1: this person actually had a vision that really captured the
Speaker 1: zeitgeist in the energy of the time, particularly in a
Speaker 1: certain age group, in a way no one had before.
Speaker 1: I am the first one to say that. Then I
Speaker 1: wouldn't be self aware if I didn't acknowledge that he
Speaker 1: really did see something and and he enacted it. I
Speaker 1: actually think that he was that unicorn. The problem is,
Speaker 1: it's real hard to hook a unicorn up to a carriage.
Speaker 1: They just want to run free. They don't want to
Speaker 1: be attached to anything, and that was really it. So
Speaker 1: do you think narcissism is a useful quality in a leader.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, Unfortunately, I do think that sometimes a
Speaker 1: narcissistic viewpoint, gathers the herd to come and ride with
Speaker 1: you or coming back you. Now I could see a
Speaker 1: little bit different that a narcissist is a great leader
Speaker 1: minus qualities of a great leader, so minus the empathy
Speaker 1: of others, minus the point of pragmatism. But yeah, I
Speaker 1: think a narcissistic leader is a good thing to have
Speaker 1: prior to my discussion with you now talking to you,
Speaker 1: I think narcissists is that great leader, but they're missing empathy. Yeah.
Speaker 1: What I'm hearing from you though, is narcissistic leaders are
Speaker 1: great motivators, they're great visionaries, they're great idea generators. But
Speaker 1: what they're not good as good managers, you know, and
Speaker 1: they're also tend not to be particularly fiscally responsible. We
Speaker 1: will be right back with this conversation with Hugo so
Speaker 1: Ugo again. So I'm just sort of obsessed with talking
Speaker 1: with you about this because so, I mean, you know
Speaker 1: why everything I talked about narcissum is individual. Like a
Speaker 1: couple people go in to marriage a mother, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: or a parent or a friend. But to think of
Speaker 1: it at this scale, and yet all the dynamics are
Speaker 1: kind of the same. It's really it's so compelling, and
Speaker 1: yet it was this magical moment. So it's like that
Speaker 1: magical moment. Obviously it was portrayed in films and we
Speaker 1: sort of have to go on good faith, but like
Speaker 1: the parties and the fun and the summer camp and
Speaker 1: that this and then then that, it was love bombing, right,
Speaker 1: and just like every love bombing always falls apart on
Speaker 1: the back end. So I would love to know, though,
Speaker 1: after this really fascinating journey you've had it we work,
Speaker 1: what was the biggest learning experience you'd say you took
Speaker 1: away from working there. I think one of my largest
Speaker 1: takeaways was that I actually believe in myself because half
Speaker 1: the time that I saw these signs Eider in life,
Speaker 1: other people saw those times, and later in life a
Speaker 1: collective supported what I was thinking, and then everyone else
Speaker 1: believed it. So if I just stand true in my
Speaker 1: own faith and beliefs, then I will be Okay. What
Speaker 1: I'm really hearing is that you learn to not gaslight
Speaker 1: yourself after working there? Yes, exactly. And you know what, Ugo,
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you this. I know it was a
Speaker 1: hell of a wild ride if you got that lesson
Speaker 1: out of this. I think the time there was well
Speaker 1: spent totally because some people never learned that lesson. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a big one, as long as you can hold
Speaker 1: onto it. That's the key is that is how do
Speaker 1: we let ourselves not be gaslighted. It means that you
Speaker 1: have to have a lot of the capacity for resistance.
Speaker 1: And so when people say, oh, come on, ugo, or
Speaker 1: like you're not being cool, or say I hear you,
Speaker 1: I feel you, and I see you, and I make
Speaker 1: this is my there's a reality. So I'm cool, goodbye,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to have to set this line down.
Speaker 1: I've seen this movie before and I'm good. I know
Speaker 1: how this one ends. I've been asking you questions for
Speaker 1: a long time. Do do do you have anything you want
Speaker 1: to run by me? What exactly draws people to a narcissist?
Speaker 1: Same things that drew people too? We work, charisma, charm, promise, hope.
Speaker 1: I think that's sort of what attracts people. But I
Speaker 1: also think that there's confidence. There's the idea of for
Speaker 1: a moment in time, belonging to something special. That is
Speaker 1: sort of the healthy stuff that attracts us. That's the
Speaker 1: above the line stuff. Below the line stuff is actually
Speaker 1: even more pernicious, and that's the stuff like trauma bonding.
Speaker 1: Some of the experience you're having is the same experience
Speaker 1: somebody had with their own rejecting parent or rejecting sibling
Speaker 1: or invalidating family system. And as an adult, there's a
Speaker 1: real familiarity there, and familiarity is very intoxicating. But also
Speaker 1: the idea that this time I can get it right
Speaker 1: and there's a final piece which is that. And I
Speaker 1: think that this comes up not only in charismatic leaders,
Speaker 1: but just even in one on one relationships. Is this
Speaker 1: idea that the narcissistic person is often like when they're
Speaker 1: on their A game. It's like no a game you've
Speaker 1: ever seen. It is like triple A. The sun only
Speaker 1: shines on you, and then they withhold it, they get distracted,
Speaker 1: they're not interested, and you're forever chasing that like I
Speaker 1: want that again. I want the sun on me, and
Speaker 1: I know it's possible because we had that, and that
Speaker 1: sort of backing and forthing again is part of that
Speaker 1: is part of that trauma bond. And like I said,
Speaker 1: we were captured this. We're always chasing the unicorn. Nobody
Speaker 1: chases a sort of an old pony, but they chase
Speaker 1: the unicorn because they think that they can have it,
Speaker 1: be with it, right it, I guess. But it's that
Speaker 1: back and force between the excitement and then when they
Speaker 1: pull away, people want that back, so they try harder
Speaker 1: and harder to win them over. So I think the
Speaker 1: fascination now is that so many people have been hurt
Speaker 1: by people with these personalities and using this framework, people
Speaker 1: saying that's what just happened to me. And it's like,
Speaker 1: you just said that narcissism has these good things if
Speaker 1: you will and put that good in quote, because it
Speaker 1: always has the bad things, And what people are saying
Speaker 1: is can I just have the good things? I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: then it's not narcissist, you know, Like then it's just
Speaker 1: a good person. But that rejecting part plays on that
Speaker 1: below the line sort of trauma stuff that sometimes unless
Speaker 1: people recognize, like how compelling it is to be drawn
Speaker 1: to something where we work things through. But the point
Speaker 1: of this podcast is to say to educate people to say,
Speaker 1: these things, these red flags are real, and these stories
Speaker 1: never end well. Ever, never end well. There maybe every
Speaker 1: so often there was that one person in that company
Speaker 1: who dumped their stock at exactly the right moment. That's
Speaker 1: not different than me driving to a liquor store right
Speaker 1: now buying a lottery ticket. You know, it's the same psychology.
Speaker 1: So that's luck, you know. But by and large, I
Speaker 1: have never ever seen one of these things. These stories
Speaker 1: end well. So the key is to not walk in
Speaker 1: the gateway in the first place. Boom, that's it. That's
Speaker 1: why we're drawn to them a lot. Good. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that idea of good narcissism, I ain't buying it.
Speaker 1: The word has baked into it, the good and the bad.
Speaker 1: Good narcissism is simply being that rarest of things in
Speaker 1: our world, a confident, self aware, authentic, compassionate, kind, respectful,
Speaker 1: cooperative individual. And let me tell you you want a unicorn,
Speaker 1: it's that. Here are some takeaways after that conversation with Ugo.
Speaker 1: Balancing our aspirations and our ideals was being able to
Speaker 1: see red flags and also protecting ourselves can be really
Speaker 1: challenging in the presence of a charismatic but self serving leader.
Speaker 1: No matter how enthralled we are by their vision, we
Speaker 1: always have to keep checking in with ourselves on whether
Speaker 1: something really feels right. In our next takeaway, let's consider
Speaker 1: that a relationship with a narcissistic leader can be just
Speaker 1: as confusing as any narcissistic relationship. Even when things go wrong,
Speaker 1: there may still be things that we valued about the experience,
Speaker 1: but it's horton to remember that is okay to admire
Speaker 1: their vision but not sign off on their bad behavior.
Speaker 1: One thing we know, and this is supported by the research.
Speaker 1: Even after a disappointing and demoralizing work experience, there can
Speaker 1: still be tremendous possibilities when you join forces or continue
Speaker 1: to support and be supported by your former healthy colleagues
Speaker 1: that walk through the fire with you. And for my
Speaker 1: last takeaway, charismatic leaders can do so much harm, but
Speaker 1: not all of them are intentionally sadistic. They can get
Speaker 1: so single minded in their grandiose pursuit of their vision
Speaker 1: for the world that the harm to other people simply
Speaker 1: becomes collateral damage for them, but it's real damage. This
Speaker 1: can be confusing for people who admire the vision or
Speaker 1: even the leader, but who are at the same time
Speaker 1: being harmed by or watching other people be armed by
Speaker 1: the charismatic leaders single minded focus on domination, power and control.
Speaker 1: A big thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett
Speaker 1: Smith Fallon, Jethro Ellen Rakaton and Dr Rominey Dr Vassola,
Speaker 1: And thank you to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer
Speaker 1: Mara Dela Rosa and consultant Kelly Evelyn, and our editors
Speaker 1: and sound engineers Devin Donnahy and Calvin Bailiff