Speaker 1: All right, break it down.
Speaker 2: If you ever have feelings that you just wons Amy
Speaker 2: and Cat, gotcha, Cob and locking a brother, ladies and fels,
Speaker 2: you just follow Ann the spirit where it's on the
Speaker 2: front real stuff to the chaill stuff and the.
Speaker 1: M but Swayne, sometimes the best thing you can do
Speaker 1: it just.
Speaker 2: Stop you feel things.
Speaker 1: This is feeling things.
Speaker 2: With Amy and Cat.
Speaker 1: Happy Tuesday. Welcome to feeling Things. I'm Amy and I'm
Speaker 1: Cat and we are continuing our series on the Four
Speaker 1: Horsemen from doctor John Gottman, and today's is a doozy.
Speaker 1: We finally hit the one that will just send your
Speaker 1: relationship down the drain down the toilet right like a
Speaker 1: slow flush. And then one day you're just like.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, I think the criticism is like the slow flush, this.
Speaker 1: Is the well, but how fast? I mean you might
Speaker 1: live with it for a little bit.
Speaker 2: This is like I'm just it's like Jarn, It's like
Speaker 2: you feel it.
Speaker 1: I saw if you stay in this one you get
Speaker 1: sick more. I told Kat I didn't read in too
Speaker 1: much on this one. Because we have a doc where
Speaker 1: we build everything that Kat is the therapist, so she's
Speaker 1: delivering this information to us and this is something that
Speaker 1: you probably go over with clients and stuff or recommend
Speaker 1: to them or recommend that they do more research themselves.
Speaker 1: Because he has a book, right, he has a lot
Speaker 1: of books. But he also I mean, is it specifically
Speaker 1: for this or does he mention this.
Speaker 2: In This is just in his research information that you
Speaker 2: can find. If anybody wants to know more and doesn't
Speaker 2: want to read a book, you go to the Gotman
Speaker 2: Institute's website. They have a blog, They have tons of articles.
Speaker 2: They probably have ten articles just on contempt, which is
Speaker 2: what we're talking about today, or just on the four horsemen.
Speaker 2: So if you are interested or you just want to
Speaker 2: read more, go there. That's a better place than just
Speaker 2: googling or going on Wikipedia to learn because it's all
Speaker 2: coming from his research. It's things that the Gotments have
Speaker 2: put on there and people that work for them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like by research, he was doing very intense
Speaker 1: things with couples, like some even in his own home,
Speaker 1: right or did I make that up? He might have
Speaker 1: been doing that like therapy and like recording.
Speaker 2: Then so he had the love lab. Is that what
Speaker 2: you're talking about?
Speaker 1: Okay, so his own home his lab whatever, But he
Speaker 1: was monitoring people like filming them and watching their interactions.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah, and.
Speaker 1: Like seeing how they were communicating.
Speaker 2: Also, I didn't think about this, but if you if
Speaker 2: you do a training with the Gotment Institute, you'll get
Speaker 2: to see some of the recordings of therapy sessions and
Speaker 2: sometimes you'll see them in like the waiting room and
Speaker 2: stuff like that, and they'll talk you through those things.
Speaker 2: Have you ever watched Couples Therapy?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: Okay, it's I want to say, I don't know what
Speaker 2: streaming service is on. It's not like a Netflix. It
Speaker 2: might be HBO or something.
Speaker 1: I'll figure it out.
Speaker 2: Less popular, but it's worth if they have a thirty
Speaker 2: day trial, it's worth just doing that to watch the show.
Speaker 1: Paramount Plus and Hulu.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, Hulu. So it is the therapist on Their
Speaker 2: name is doctor Orna, and she is incredible. When I
Speaker 2: watch it, it feels like continuing education, but also it's entertaining.
Speaker 2: It's a TV show, and I'm very weary of therapy
Speaker 2: entertainment because I'm like, who would sign up to do
Speaker 2: therapy on a TV show?
Speaker 1: So who would That's a good question.
Speaker 2: I haven't actually done research on figuring the answer to that,
Speaker 2: But my assumption is they're getting free therapy, and I'm
Speaker 2: sure she's a pretty penny.
Speaker 1: Right, So I'm willing to share all of my things
Speaker 1: with the world in exchange for.
Speaker 2: This theory because maybe it will save my marriage or
Speaker 2: save my relationship. And they do a great job of
Speaker 2: having all different kinds of relationships on there, all different
Speaker 2: types of people, all different types of religions, Like it
Speaker 2: kind of does kind of check every box. But if
Speaker 2: you read about and learn about these four horsemen and
Speaker 2: then you watch the show, it would be a fun
Speaker 2: exercise for somebody to go in and look at like
Speaker 2: when you see each one, and there are some when
Speaker 2: you watch the ones and you're like, that's contempt. Even
Speaker 2: I'm like, there's no way, And part of me is
Speaker 2: like I don't want this couple to make it because
Speaker 2: they are both hurting each other so often and so harshly.
Speaker 1: Do you think two contempt people end up together or
Speaker 1: one is the contempt and then the other person turns
Speaker 1: contempt both.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's just as like you married a
Speaker 2: contemptuous person. I think that a lot of times what
Speaker 2: happens in relationships is things build and build and build,
Speaker 2: and then you start building this resentment and then you
Speaker 2: become contemptuous towards your partner. Now, if you're married to
Speaker 2: somebody who is has a lot of traits of narcissism
Speaker 2: or is diagnosed as a narcissist, then they're probably gonna
Speaker 2: be contemptuous at times. But I don't think it's just
Speaker 2: like you are this person most of the time.
Speaker 1: You know, Nick Cannon, Ye, Maria carries, yeah baby daddy
Speaker 1: and then a lot of other Yeah baby Ddy's mama's. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was the baby daddy to a lot of babies. Yeah,
Speaker 1: not just Maria carry. But I didn't know if you
Speaker 1: knew that he was recently on the Breakfast Club and
Speaker 1: he shared with them that he was diagnosed with MPD.
Speaker 2: No way. Yeah, I saw something somewhere that he said,
Speaker 2: and maybe it was from there he said he wasn't
Speaker 2: treating people very well, so maybe he's trying to get.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that that was a couple of years
Speaker 1: ago that you know, he did all the tests and
Speaker 1: it's a lot of questions and intense therapy and filling
Speaker 1: out questionnaires and whatnot that he realized he had narcissistic
Speaker 1: personality disorder. And that so many times he thought that's
Speaker 1: just the way things were, but he's realized he can't
Speaker 1: be that way, so he's doing the work to try
Speaker 1: not to be that way. And I'm like, wow, this
Speaker 1: just seems like the opposite of everything we hear. Now.
Speaker 1: I've heard from experts that there is a possibility that
Speaker 1: there can be work done, but that person has to
Speaker 1: be open to it, and most narcisses aren't going to
Speaker 1: be open to testing for it.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's true. And I also was going to say,
Speaker 2: and this is me just saying this, that this can
Speaker 2: also happen. Somebody who's diagnosed with that personality disorder can
Speaker 2: also present like they are this person who's like, oh
Speaker 2: my gosh, I don't want to be this way. I'm
Speaker 2: going to change this. That's a way to manipulate people too,
Speaker 2: but they really have no intention of doing that. They're
Speaker 2: like to get ahead of it. Does that make sense
Speaker 2: that Costs are very good actors, not.
Speaker 1: So much with him, I guess. But I guess I
Speaker 1: thought that if because they tend to be very manipulative
Speaker 1: and good at it, that why wouldn't they Just with
Speaker 1: all this information now that we have about narcissism and
Speaker 1: how it's everywhere. You kind of like see people saying
Speaker 1: certain things and you're like, well, if I just don't
Speaker 1: say that or act this way, then I either will
Speaker 1: not be perceived as narcissist or I kind of know
Speaker 1: the right thing to say now and then people will
Speaker 1: see me in a different way. That crossed my mind.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a specific couple on one of the season
Speaker 2: where you have a couple's therapy, yes, where you can
Speaker 2: tell that there's some narcissism afloat, and the way that
Speaker 2: the doctor orner handles it is like so beautiful where
Speaker 2: you're not just like calling somebody out, but she's just
Speaker 2: kind of she was trying to understand this person, and
Speaker 2: he kept being like no, no, no, no, like she
Speaker 2: wouldn't allow her to like she probably was actually getting
Speaker 2: it right, but he kept always having an excuse for something,
Speaker 2: even if she was like parroting back what he said.
Speaker 2: And so she just said to him, it feels like
Speaker 2: it's really hard to get things right for you with you?
Speaker 2: Is that true? And he was like, what are you
Speaker 2: talking about? And she's like, well, it just feels like
Speaker 2: I'm trying to understand you and it feels really hard
Speaker 2: for me to understand you. Do you feel that? Do
Speaker 2: you feel like it's hard for people to understand you?
Speaker 2: And you can. I'm going to find the season and
Speaker 2: come back and tell you, guys, because it was such
Speaker 2: a like a caring, empathetic view of how it looks
Speaker 2: like to be in relationship with these people, and you
Speaker 2: have so much empathy for the part too, and also like, hello,
Speaker 2: now you deserve better than this. Yeah, I mean you
Speaker 2: were going to say what you saw on the dock
Speaker 2: we trailed off.
Speaker 1: Oh no, just like under contempt. Like I told you,
Speaker 1: I just went in to put my funny story that
Speaker 1: I just went in to put my feeling of the day,
Speaker 1: and I was like, I really didn't read much about it.
Speaker 1: I was like, but what's crazy to me is that
Speaker 1: if someone's in in a contemptuous relationship, they are more
Speaker 1: susceptible to illness, Like they get sick more because they're
Speaker 1: weakened immune system. And then you're like, well, that's at
Speaker 1: the top of the dock, and I was like, yeah, it's.
Speaker 2: The first thing, yeah, which is that's funny.
Speaker 1: Well, and it's also in fun it's like four times
Speaker 1: thicker than I just.
Speaker 2: Thought that was crazy too, and it's yeah, your immune
Speaker 2: system gets weakened, because I mean that speaks to how
Speaker 2: our mental health affects the wholeness of our health. If
Speaker 2: I'm constantly being beaten down or having to feel like
Speaker 2: I have defend myself all the time, I don't feel
Speaker 2: safe in my closest relationship, your body's going to take
Speaker 2: that on and then you're not gonna be able to
Speaker 2: fight off actual things like the flu.
Speaker 1: Yeah, wild, it is crazy. I'm going to do the
Speaker 1: feeling of the day before we get into contempt.
Speaker 2: I would love to.
Speaker 1: I'm sad. I know it doesn't seem sad sad, but
Speaker 1: I'm sad because my boyfriend left for Paris today without me.
Speaker 2: This is you know, that's like the one place you
Speaker 2: want to go.
Speaker 1: It's on my list, It's on my bucket list. Yes,
Speaker 1: And of course I could go with him if I
Speaker 1: didn't have work. I mean he would be working, but
Speaker 1: I could still. And apparently then when he left today
Speaker 1: because he came by to get a folding bag and
Speaker 1: he was like, I think my hotel room looks all
Speaker 1: to the Eiffel Tower, And I was like cool, stop
Speaker 1: and He's like I can bring you a sweatshirt, and
Speaker 1: I was like, okay.
Speaker 2: It's the same thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think I can get that here
Speaker 1: in the mall. But the sad is giving me information though,
Speaker 1: like I'm sad that I can't be there, but also
Speaker 1: I'm thankful for my job, so it's like give take,
Speaker 1: and then I guess it's good that I'm sad because
Speaker 1: like I care about my relationship, you know, like if
Speaker 1: I wasn't sad, like he's going to experience something like
Speaker 1: I want to experience that with him, okay, and like
Speaker 1: I don't get to do that, maybe we will one day.
Speaker 1: So also like I'm sad, but then hopeful that maybe
Speaker 1: one day we'll take our own trip to Paris. And
Speaker 1: then the saddest information though, because like what if I
Speaker 1: was like, eh, neutral, like I don't care you're leaving
Speaker 1: for a week. I'm good.
Speaker 2: Well you yeah, you would feel that about any trip, right,
Speaker 2: not just Paris. It's just an extra.
Speaker 1: It's extra because it's like where.
Speaker 2: You want to go, want to go? I really want
Speaker 2: to ask a hypothetical question, but if it feels weird,
Speaker 2: just let me know. Okay, if you were to one
Speaker 2: day go on a honeymoon with anybody doesn't have to
Speaker 2: do with your boyfriend. If you got to make that
Speaker 2: decision on your own, where do you think you would go?
Speaker 1: Good?
Speaker 2: Would you go to Paris? Or do you think you
Speaker 2: would do me?
Speaker 1: I mean maybe, but it's feeling a little cliche for honeymoon. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but okay, maybe it's just because I just watched the
Speaker 1: Summer I Turn Pretty and cut that out, cut that out?
Speaker 1: Just leep it wait did it?
Speaker 2: I don't watch that.
Speaker 1: I can up, I know, but everybody's watching it. It's
Speaker 1: all the rage. I can't believe you're not No, you can't.
Speaker 1: I cannot say, we cannot keep.
Speaker 2: Doesn't just be he just beaped it.
Speaker 1: We're still talking, Okay, he used to just put a
Speaker 1: beep over what I said. The coast of Spain. Maybe
Speaker 1: I would go. I've always wanted to go to Spain.
Speaker 2: Okay, that felt like you just like picked a random thing.
Speaker 1: No, No, I've wanted to go to Spain like.
Speaker 2: Well, because my question is, are you the type of
Speaker 2: person who wants on a honeymoon to just have like
Speaker 2: a relaxing like time or do you want to go
Speaker 2: on like a trip and like see things and experience
Speaker 2: parts of the world. It could be both.
Speaker 1: I want to be a little bit. I want to
Speaker 1: relax and experience a little bit. No, I do not
Speaker 1: need to be hitting up every museum and all the land. No,
Speaker 1: So that that answers it. We're not going to Paris
Speaker 1: because I do want to go to like the like
Speaker 1: that would be great and see certain sites, and I
Speaker 1: just don't think I want to be doing that on
Speaker 1: my honeymoon.
Speaker 2: That's how I felt. I was thinking about Hawaii, but
Speaker 2: I feel like if I go to Hawaii, I want
Speaker 2: to be doing activities the whole time and like traveling
Speaker 2: different places. So we just went somewhere and I just
Speaker 2: laid down for a week.
Speaker 1: See. Yeah, I could see myself like in some zero
Speaker 1: horizon pool somewhere off the coast of somewhere, you know,
Speaker 1: on a pool where there's like no infinity. Is that
Speaker 1: not called a zero horizon pool?
Speaker 2: It could be called both. There was an infinity pool
Speaker 2: at where we went on our honeymoon.
Speaker 1: Okay, a zero horizon pool more commonly called an infinity pool.
Speaker 1: So I'm just part of.
Speaker 2: The your special Yeah.
Speaker 1: It also could be called by some people a vanishing
Speaker 1: edge pool. It creates the illusion that the water has
Speaker 1: no edge, appearing to fall into the surrounding landscape or horizon.
Speaker 1: That's me because I don't love the beach, like I
Speaker 1: don't love sand and salt water, but I like the
Speaker 1: sound of the ocean. You know, some pools are saltwater pools.
Speaker 1: I can deal with the saltwater pool. I don't want
Speaker 1: to be in the saltwater ocean with creatures. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: the sand, so I can be in a pool. Correction,
Speaker 1: it's not so much the salt water as it is
Speaker 1: the creatures creatures in the sand. So, okay, take me
Speaker 1: to the coast of Spain, just to the hotel pool.
Speaker 2: You could probably go to a really nice resort in Spain, yeah,
Speaker 2: or like a really nice resort in Grease. But then
Speaker 2: my my thing is like if you go to a resort,
Speaker 2: you don't really know where you are if you're not
Speaker 2: going on like excursions. So save the Grease trip for
Speaker 2: when you go to explore. Okay, so shall we go
Speaker 2: to contempt.
Speaker 1: Let's do it.
Speaker 2: So do you know what contempt means outside of this,
Speaker 2: like outside of the four horsemen? I feel like I
Speaker 2: don't use that word.
Speaker 1: I don't really use that word here in court, contempt
Speaker 1: of court and content of the same.
Speaker 2: Can you look, because contempt essentially means like you believe
Speaker 2: that there something's below you, Okay.
Speaker 1: A contempt of court is an act of disobedience or
Speaker 1: disrespect towards the judicial branch of the government or an
Speaker 1: interference with its orderly process. It's an offense against a
Speaker 1: court of justice or a person whom the judicial functions
Speaker 1: of the sovereignty have been. Well, we just got a
Speaker 1: little complicated with our words there, but.
Speaker 2: That makes sense because that is aligned with.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, so the exact definition, which you may have it,
Speaker 1: you can read it, okay, the feeling that a person
Speaker 1: or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless or deserving scorn.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so that's just a sad.
Speaker 2: Well when you don't want your partner to feel that
Speaker 2: way about you, nor do you want to feel that
Speaker 2: way about your partner. And so that's why this is
Speaker 2: the one that I think is the biggest predictor that
Speaker 2: your relationship is not going to make it. If you're
Speaker 2: seeing contempt in the relationship, you're not too far gone,
Speaker 2: because there is the antidote, but you're pretty far You
Speaker 2: really don't want to get to this point, and contempt
Speaker 2: comes after criticism because it feels like it almost feels
Speaker 2: like it's like if criticism is like sticking the knife
Speaker 2: in somebody, contempt is twisting it. It's taking it a
Speaker 2: step farther. You're not accidentally being mean to somebody. I
Speaker 2: think sometimes when we're criticizing people, we don't mean to
Speaker 2: be mean. We're struggling with kind of expressing ourselves. This
Speaker 2: is like you are showing this person that they are
Speaker 2: less than you. It includes in a relationship being disrespectful,
Speaker 2: like just being disrespectful towards the person, which there's a
Speaker 2: lot of ways that can actually look and mocking somebody
Speaker 2: using sarcasm. I know we talked about that with last week.
Speaker 2: This is not using sarcasm to be less vulnerable. It's
Speaker 2: using sarcasm to like make somebody feel bad. What do
Speaker 2: you think I feel like, You're like.
Speaker 1: Well, because I'm just imagining like being in this relationship,
Speaker 1: and then I'm also evaluating my sarcasm and my relationship.
Speaker 2: There is a fine line between sarcasm when we are
Speaker 2: avoiding vulnerability or when we are avoiding confrontation. Even yeah,
Speaker 2: like making a joke because there's fear somewhere around, like
Speaker 2: really sharing how I'm feeling. Okay, this is sarcasm to
Speaker 2: like put somebody down. Imagine a bullying school. They're making
Speaker 2: fun of other people in front of a group of people,
Speaker 2: and they're being sarcastic, like making fun of something you
Speaker 2: did to hurt you.
Speaker 1: Like with contempt. Now I'm aligning it with like just
Speaker 1: like disgust.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is probably discust in that person because you
Speaker 2: have to kind of have a level of disgust towards
Speaker 2: this person to want to make them feel this way.
Speaker 2: When you love somebody and care about somebody and respect somebody,
Speaker 2: that's a huge part of this. The respect is gone.
Speaker 2: You're not going to want to do this to somebody.
Speaker 2: And if you did do this accidentally, you would feel
Speaker 2: guilt because if I respect somebody, I'm not going to
Speaker 2: want to also do this. I mean, there's like mimicking them,
Speaker 2: like in a mean way. Sometimes Patrick will like mimic
Speaker 2: the way I do something or a face that I
Speaker 2: make being playful. This is mimicking you to make fun
Speaker 2: of you, to make you hurt, and wanting that person
Speaker 2: to know that they are less than huge part you
Speaker 2: want that other person to feel bad. It's almost a
Speaker 2: way of gaining control of the situation. You look scared.
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking of people that might be in this
Speaker 1: situation and how small you must feel if this is
Speaker 1: how your partner treats you.
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, I or.
Speaker 1: Like how exhausting, And then that circles back to the
Speaker 1: illness thing of like, yeah, you're so worn down that like,
Speaker 1: no wonder you might get sick more.
Speaker 2: Yeah. My fear is people that are in a relationship
Speaker 2: where one partner is very contemptuous of the other, is
Speaker 2: that you do lose a you part of your self
Speaker 2: esteem and self worth. So even the fighting back, you
Speaker 2: might not even be as defensive because you've kind of
Speaker 2: already been just like pushed down so far. I mean,
Speaker 2: if we see somebody doing this, and it's kind of
Speaker 2: my experience watching Couple's Therapy, I'm like in my head
Speaker 2: yelling at the TV screen, being like, leave this person.
Speaker 2: He is treating you terribly. They are not being kind
Speaker 2: to you. You deserve better. Like in my head, I'm
Speaker 2: just like, how could you stay after hearing this and
Speaker 2: that person's experience that's in it, they're hearing through the
Speaker 2: lens of well this is who I am. Now, like
Speaker 2: I am this, I might not feel like I deserve better. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So this is more so if you're seeing somebody that
Speaker 2: you love in a relationship like this and you're just
Speaker 2: wanting to yell at them and say like leave them,
Speaker 2: or even if you're a helping professional and you want
Speaker 2: to be like leave them, or you're getting frustrated with somebody.
Speaker 2: From our perspective, it looks and feels very different than
Speaker 2: the person who's in that relationship, and so it's very
Speaker 2: helpful to offer extra grace and care and empathy to
Speaker 2: that person versus judge them for staying in a relationship
Speaker 2: like that. Obviously, if you have a strong self esteem
Speaker 2: and self worth, you're not going to stay in a
Speaker 2: relationship like that. If you have the ability to leave.
Speaker 1: Is the person do you think? I mean, I'm sure
Speaker 1: it's case my case, But like when the contempt shows
Speaker 1: up or that contemptuous behavior, but similar to a narcissist,
Speaker 1: which I'm not saying just because you're contemptious in a
Speaker 1: relationship doesn't mean you're a narcissist, right, But like narcissists
Speaker 1: have charming sides and they have like their love bombing
Speaker 1: face and you can be very charismatic, like, when you're
Speaker 1: in a contemptuous relationship, does that partner still offer like
Speaker 1: lovey awesome moments?
Speaker 2: I think it depends, and you can be in a
Speaker 2: relationship where that does happen, and that's even more confusing.
Speaker 1: Right, Well, I was thinking, like it sucks you back
Speaker 1: in and you're like, oh, look how they are and
Speaker 1: like this is just.
Speaker 2: Well, And I think when you're in a relationship like that,
Speaker 2: it probably didn't start that way. So if you're struggling
Speaker 2: with it, a lot of times you're having that rosy
Speaker 2: retrospect where you're looking back and you're remembering the good
Speaker 2: times and not seeing the stuff that might outweigh those
Speaker 2: good times. So there's not one way this looks. So
Speaker 2: to answer that question, yes, and not always. It depends, right,
Speaker 2: And like I said earlier, this usually happens when a
Speaker 2: couple has the ability to recover from this. It usually
Speaker 2: did not start that way, and it usually builds out
Speaker 2: of a continuation of not being able to share your
Speaker 2: feelings and talk about things, and so you build these
Speaker 2: feelings up and the person who's contemptuous might have created
Speaker 2: a story in their head where you are what they're
Speaker 2: saying because they have not expressed their needs to you,
Speaker 2: and so they keep getting angry or keep getting frustrated,
Speaker 2: or keep getting To use a very stakes example, like
Speaker 2: imagine your job was to take out the trash and
Speaker 2: you never did it, and ten years go by and
Speaker 2: you still have not done it. But I have not
Speaker 2: asked you to do it or reminded you. I'm just
Speaker 2: resenting when resenting resenting you for ten years because you
Speaker 2: can't take the trash out. So I'm building that story up. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that scenario happens, But you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Do you have like examples of things that they might say.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have ways of sounds. And before I get
Speaker 2: to that, I want to make sure I say this
Speaker 2: that one of the biggest issues with contempt I might
Speaker 2: have said this already is once you get there, this
Speaker 2: safety is lost. So without safety in a relationship, it's
Speaker 2: essentially poisoned. If there's no safety in a relationship, you're
Speaker 2: not going to come to somebody and be vulnerable, right,
Speaker 2: and you're going to hide and you're going to run
Speaker 2: away from those conversations, conversations that really need to be happening,
Speaker 2: and even therapy can be scary because therapy is very vulnerable.
Speaker 2: And so that's one thing that if you start to
Speaker 2: see this, take it seriously from the very beginning, because
Speaker 2: the more this builds, the less safety you have, and
Speaker 2: then you're gonna have a less opportunity to have the
Speaker 2: relationship you really want.
Speaker 1: Can you clarify safety, because as like I'm hearing it
Speaker 1: as Layman's person here over here, like I'm thinking, like,
Speaker 1: are you not talking about physical safety? You're talking about
Speaker 1: just like emotional safety.
Speaker 2: There's no emotional.
Speaker 1: Can'ty vulnerable with this person anymore?
Speaker 2: Yes, because when you have relational safety within a person,
Speaker 2: like I feel very emotionally safe with you. Earlier today
Speaker 2: I walked in and I was not my best self.
Speaker 2: I knew that I could do that in this space
Speaker 2: because I know that there's not judgment and that our
Speaker 2: relationship can still be good even if we have moments
Speaker 2: where we're not our best. I cannot have it all together,
Speaker 2: or I can like let true parts of like my
Speaker 2: shadow side that I don't really want everybody to see
Speaker 2: come out and there won't be this you won't use
Speaker 2: that against me, right right? That's also why when we
Speaker 2: have disagree we can talk to each other about them,
Speaker 2: or if we're frustrated with each other, Like I know
Speaker 2: if I do something that upsets you, well, I believe
Speaker 2: this if I do, mostly because it's happened. For if
Speaker 2: I do something that upsets you, I feel safe knowing
Speaker 2: that you will come to me, because I think you
Speaker 2: also know that I will be able to hear you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, vice versa. Yes, because we have safety in our relationship. Okay,
Speaker 1: and go to clarify. While that could be an issue
Speaker 1: for some people specifically, what you're talking about when safety
Speaker 1: is lost when this shows up is the real emotional safety.
Speaker 2: But I would also say if there's physical abuse happening
Speaker 2: in a relationship, they're probably is contempt there as welles Yeah,
Speaker 2: but they're not like mutually losing. Okay, So what this
Speaker 2: can sound like? So I'm just going to give you
Speaker 2: some phrases that like this somebody who's being contemptuous. This
Speaker 2: could be what they say calling somebody pathetic, like you're
Speaker 2: so pathetic.
Speaker 1: They just feel like they someone has to be drunk
Speaker 1: to say this or something thing, but I was wrong,
Speaker 1: but you would think like out of their mind, like
Speaker 1: someone you're telling me. Somebody sober could say that just
Speaker 1: says to someone you're pathetic.
Speaker 2: And that's very outright, Like you could even be more
Speaker 2: kind of insidious with this, and it sound more like
Speaker 2: why would you ever think that, Like if somebody's mess
Speaker 2: something up, or let's say somebody missed something on a calendar,
Speaker 2: it's not that hard to write things down your calendar,
Speaker 2: but of course you did that. Of course that happened
Speaker 2: to you, you know, putting somebody down. If somebody's expressing
Speaker 2: they had a hard day, like the contempt could sound like, oh,
Speaker 2: you think you've had a rough day, try and living
Speaker 2: in my life for an hour, you would never last,
Speaker 2: like making like you're so small and weak. So they're
Speaker 2: saying your week without saying your week in that moment
Speaker 2: where that person can also just say you're pathetic, you're
Speaker 2: so selfish, you should be ashamed of yourself, Like sharing
Speaker 2: with somebody that like you should be ashamed of yourself,
Speaker 2: versus is like, oh, how are you holding up with that?
Speaker 2: If we're feeling shame, Like it's okay to feel shame
Speaker 2: and talk about that with your partner. And that's also
Speaker 2: saying like it's not okay to mess up, because if
Speaker 2: you messed up and you forgot something, I'm not coming
Speaker 2: at you and saying you should be ashamed of yourself.
Speaker 2: That's so embarrassing. Yeah, I'm like, oh that sucks. I'm
Speaker 2: so sorry. The contempt sounds jarred because it is. It is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess you're right, you're like, this should be jarring.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And if the other part with this too, and
Speaker 2: that can be really tough from the recipient is when
Speaker 2: you confront them about that, when they're like, well, that
Speaker 2: was mean. They can use phrases like I'm just telling
Speaker 2: you how it is. Well, if you can't handle the truth,
Speaker 2: then don't ask those kinds of things where it sounds
Speaker 2: like they're doing almost like you a favor or it's
Speaker 2: your fault. So good times the good news.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want the antidote there is that.
Speaker 2: There is an antidote, and that's with everything. So if
Speaker 2: you haven't listened to the other two episodes of The
Speaker 2: Four Horsemen, they offer an antidote for each of the horsemen.
Speaker 2: This one is actually, I think just something we should
Speaker 2: be doing in general and all of our relationships and
Speaker 2: just keeping in mind with all of our relationships it's
Speaker 2: just building a culture of appreciation and respect. And then
Speaker 2: there's two ways to do like two tips to do this.
Speaker 2: There's probably way more, but I'm gonna give you two.
Speaker 2: So the first one is just knowing that there is
Speaker 2: a five two to one ratio. Did you know this ratio?
Speaker 1: I know this from just from Gottman as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the for every bad experience or negative encounter you have
Speaker 1: in your relationship you need five positives to make up
Speaker 1: for it.
Speaker 2: Is that it Yeah, that's a good job, and that
Speaker 2: comes from their research. Is like, we hold on to
Speaker 2: a negative comment or experience five times more than the positive,
Speaker 2: and we can use that towards anything like think about
Speaker 2: how if one person makes a negative comment about what
Speaker 2: you look like, that holds way more weight than if
Speaker 2: somebody says something possible about what you look like. We
Speaker 2: just receive feedback differently positive and negative. I really wish
Speaker 2: we could find a solution for that.
Speaker 1: Well, I was reading something the other day I cannot
Speaker 1: remember where, so I'm going to paraphrase it. But back
Speaker 1: when we were in survival mode, like I don't know,
Speaker 1: Caveman type days, like negative experiences helped keep us alive,
Speaker 1: so we remembered those more than a positive because if
Speaker 1: you remember something that's a threat or negative, then you
Speaker 1: know how to better be ready.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's probably part of it. I also think that
Speaker 2: confirmation bias is there too, So if we have insecurities,
Speaker 2: we look for evidence to prove that those things are
Speaker 2: Like the little critic inside of our head is looking
Speaker 2: for feedback to hold on to more than we're looking
Speaker 2: for evidence against. So I think there's probably a lot
Speaker 2: of things at play, including what you just said, that
Speaker 2: add to why we hold onto these things heavier. So
Speaker 2: because we can't change that, we can just snap our
Speaker 2: fingers and carry the positive stuff more. What you do
Speaker 2: is you just try to balance it out by saying
Speaker 2: more positive things more often. Really, and also part of
Speaker 2: this is noting those positive experiences. So for whatever reason
Speaker 2: as well, we could have twenty things happen that go
Speaker 2: great throughout our day, but we just think of them
Speaker 2: as normal. That one negative thing we're going to clock right,
Speaker 2: but we don't clock the positives as much. So part
Speaker 2: of this exercise, I think, is going back through your
Speaker 2: day almost like how you do like gratitude journaling. We
Speaker 2: don't notice how much your gratitude how much gratitude you have.
Speaker 2: Until you actually pay attention to it and write it down,
Speaker 2: you don't notice how many positive things usually happen unless
Speaker 2: you're paying attention to them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so when it came to contentious relationship, how does
Speaker 1: the five to one work? Like the person that like say,
Speaker 1: I say to you, we're having an argument or something,
Speaker 1: and for a reason, I'm like, you're actually like a
Speaker 1: child that's negative. So like then I realize, oh, wow,
Speaker 1: I said that to you. Now I need to give
Speaker 1: you some positive experiences.
Speaker 2: No, may back up, because that's this is confusing.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to make it confusing.
Speaker 2: No, No, this is I think that I'm glad you
Speaker 2: pointed this out because I'm sure other people are thinking this.
Speaker 1: This is not are you saying I'm stupid. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1: I'm being contempious to myself.
Speaker 2: This is not to balance out the contemptuous behavior. Yes,
Speaker 2: we're trying to get rid of that. When you can't
Speaker 2: balance out contemptuous behavior, you don't want to be in that, Okay,
Speaker 2: Because also that goes back to your point of you
Speaker 2: go through those like the cycle of them being really
Speaker 2: charming and kind and then they're mean you never want
Speaker 2: to normally the contemptuous behavior. This is because a lot
Speaker 2: of times you become contemptuous because you've forgotten what you
Speaker 2: really care about these people, like what you like about
Speaker 2: these people. This happens like usually a roads over time.
Speaker 2: And so we're trying the gatmins are really in this,
Speaker 2: trying to peel back and help you remember why you
Speaker 2: really are in the relationship with this person, because there's
Speaker 2: a reason you guys were together.
Speaker 1: We're trying to Yeah.
Speaker 2: So the more I can compliment these people, the more
Speaker 2: I can remind myself that this good experience happened or
Speaker 2: something like that, the more I'm taken back to the
Speaker 2: good memories and the good feelings I have towards this
Speaker 2: person versus the negative.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, thank you for clarifying. Yeah, this makes sense,
Speaker 1: because I was like, Wow, the contemptuous person's gonna have
Speaker 1: to realize they said something rude and then say five
Speaker 1: nice things after. But I know it's not as simple
Speaker 1: as that, So thank you for clarifying that. This is
Speaker 1: more so yeah, getting back to the root of what
Speaker 1: first drew you to this person and there, and there's
Speaker 1: probably a lot of things there, but you don't focus
Speaker 1: on them, because you just focus on the ones that
Speaker 1: the things that are annoying you. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we can all look at moments less where we're
Speaker 2: doing that for sure. And the other tip with this
Speaker 2: antidote is just small things often, so it kind of
Speaker 2: feeds off of that, is to note with your partner
Speaker 2: small things because we hold on to big things, especially
Speaker 2: positive like we remember when they bought us flowers, or
Speaker 2: when they plan this trip or when they did this
Speaker 2: thing that's like big and maybe not normal versus small things. Often,
Speaker 2: can you point out the everyday things you like about somebody,
Speaker 2: or the everyday things that made you feel appreciated or
Speaker 2: that you had fun with or something like that. It
Speaker 2: can be as simple as like notice that you you
Speaker 2: love waking up next to your partner.
Speaker 1: Or my boyfriend and I were driving the other day
Speaker 1: and I just told him this today because we were
Speaker 1: on the phone this afternoon and I think we were
Speaker 1: talking about like our relationship of how it's evolved because
Speaker 1: some conversation at dinner the other night the other night
Speaker 1: with another couple and like courting and you know, guys
Speaker 1: paying for things, and then like when does the girl
Speaker 1: start sort of paying? And I don't know. I'm just
Speaker 1: giving you a little bit of the backstory. Like we
Speaker 1: were just talking about yeah, like or if you're going
Speaker 1: on a trip, like who pays for what? And one
Speaker 1: of the persons there was of the mindset that, like
Speaker 1: the guy should just always pay for everything, like it
Speaker 1: didn't matter. And my boyfriend I didn't necessarily agree with that,
Speaker 1: but in the early dating, like for dinner and stuff,
Speaker 1: it is nice for me and and even him like
Speaker 1: he would want to pay. He's like, I don't. I
Speaker 1: would never like first or second date be like you know,
Speaker 1: but some people are just different.
Speaker 2: It's not like we're people would actually be offended by that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like they want to pay, like or they want
Speaker 1: to go Dutch, or the women maybe want to feel independent.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I'm not saying how we do is right, but
Speaker 1: we are happened to be in alignment on that. And
Speaker 1: so somehow the conversation evolved into like little things that
Speaker 1: we do to show each other, like here, and I
Speaker 1: was like, you know, the other day when we were
Speaker 1: in the car and he was driving, and then he
Speaker 1: had one hand on the wheel and then he came
Speaker 1: over to my neck with his other hand and just
Speaker 1: kind of like massage my shoulder and my neck a
Speaker 1: little bit while we were driving down the road, and
Speaker 1: I was like, I've thought about that multiple times since then,
Speaker 1: and that was such a simple act, so easy, no money.
Speaker 1: We felt what I felt cared for, just like how
Speaker 1: they're trying to say women feel cared for if the
Speaker 1: guy's pining for meal. Well, I felt cared for just
Speaker 1: with the random shoulder massage while driving down the road,
Speaker 1: like something about that I loved and I wanted to
Speaker 1: make sure that I express that so that he'll do
Speaker 1: it more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think often we assume that men don't
Speaker 2: need as much affirmation as we do or as women do,
Speaker 2: and they do. Like men want to be cared for too,
Speaker 2: and want to be appreciated and want to be want
Speaker 2: to feel secure as well, Like they don't just walk
Speaker 2: around having all the confidence in the world all the time.
Speaker 2: I think they feel pressure to do that or feel that.
Speaker 2: So that makes a big difference. Like letting him know
Speaker 2: that you felt good by such a small, tiny thing
Speaker 2: that he did probably felt just as good as the
Speaker 2: thing that he did to you. That makes sense. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so there you have small thing, Yes, small things often
Speaker 2: and that's something that you can just randomly do or
Speaker 2: you can see you yeah, or you can that can
Speaker 2: be a ritual. What you guys do as an exercise
Speaker 2: if you're helping your relationship back on track, is like weekly,
Speaker 2: do a check in and like talk about a couple
Speaker 2: of things, or you could do this nightly, but that
Speaker 2: just seems like a lot a couple of things that
Speaker 2: maybe that person didn't know that they did that you
Speaker 2: really appreciated, or something new that you learned that you
Speaker 2: loved about them. Like I didn't think that I would
Speaker 2: love watching my husband watch sports, but sometimes it's really
Speaker 2: cute to watch them get so excited about something and
Speaker 2: then I start appreciating that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that. It makes you think of the
Speaker 1: three a's with my kids, the asking, affirming, and well,
Speaker 1: what's the other A? Ask?
Speaker 2: Affirm M Well, I when I was taught it was regrets, requests,
Speaker 2: and affirmations. So I was one of them.
Speaker 1: Was sorry, no ask. There was like asking for something
Speaker 1: you need or want, but there's then there was also
Speaker 1: is there anything I need to ask for forgiveness or
Speaker 1: like that I've done that I need to know about,
Speaker 1: And then there's affirming, but it wasn't ask ask affirms,
Speaker 1: so what was the other a? It's like, ask why
Speaker 1: is my brain doing this right now? Acknowledge no, ask
Speaker 1: ask an affirm what are some other a's appreciation? Oh well,
Speaker 1: my brain can't think of it right now. We'll get dang,
Speaker 1: it's good. But that was what my therapist was. My
Speaker 1: kids they were saying, do it as a nightly check in,
Speaker 1: which for us as a family did get overwhelming, so
Speaker 1: we kind of stopped, but it served for a season.
Speaker 1: So affirm no because I.
Speaker 2: Find like an acknowledge.
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe it could be acknowledged.
Speaker 2: Because when we do regrets, requests and affirmations, it's that
Speaker 2: acknowledging could be the regret.
Speaker 1: Yeah it works for now. Okay, we'll take it because
Speaker 1: it starts with an A and it fits. But really
Speaker 1: it is just about also checking in, checking in, but
Speaker 1: without a laundry list. So while every night seem overwhelming,
Speaker 1: but you only got one, ask or what you can
Speaker 1: be like, well, you did all of these things, and
Speaker 1: I need you to feel bad about them all or
Speaker 1: I need like for my kids, that's when they can say, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm out of these socks, like they can make a note,
Speaker 1: but you only ask for one thing per.
Speaker 2: Well, I would say with if you're trying to pull
Speaker 2: yourself out of a contemptuous relationship, to just stick with
Speaker 2: the affirmations for a little bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's probably, But.
Speaker 2: Once you graduate, then you can do the other things,
Speaker 2: because not acknowledging those other things is what gets you
Speaker 2: to be contemptuous too.
Speaker 1: And we can't even remember what the other things are.
Speaker 1: So just affirm a firm affirm, affirm the three a's. Yeah,
Speaker 1: keep it simple, m hm cool, kiss, Yeah, keep it simple, silly, silly,
Speaker 1: because we don't want to say stupid yea, because that's
Speaker 1: not contemptuous. Okay, Part three, Yeah, that's a wrap. So
Speaker 1: next week we will be doing part four, which is
Speaker 1: stoneballing stone walling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, secret just like comes in from out of nowhere.
Speaker 2: What stone walling. I just feel like it shows up
Speaker 2: out of nowhere.
Speaker 1: I know of stone walling. It's quiet, okay, I know
Speaker 1: of stone wall like from what I've seen from narcissist
Speaker 1: type stuff.
Speaker 2: I really meant like it's quiet because it's literally yeah
Speaker 2: what it is, shutting shutting down off.
Speaker 1: Yeah all right, Well we hope you have the day
Speaker 1: you need to have. Bye bye,