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Speaker 1: At six pm, and the usual controlled cast of the

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Speaker 1: day is finally wound down. Most of your daylight hours

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Speaker 1: are filled with the sounds of giggling kids and, yes,

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Speaker 1: the occasional whining and tantrums. You've been a licensed childcare

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Speaker 1: provider for the past fifteen years and you run a

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Speaker 1: daycare center out of your house. You wave goodbye to

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Speaker 1: the last toddler to get picked up by his dad

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Speaker 1: from your doorway, then you head back inside. Your two

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Speaker 1: middle schoolers are sitting at the kitchen table doing their homework,

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Speaker 1: so you take advantage of the brief moment of quiet

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Speaker 1: to start getting dinner ready. But the quiet doesn't last

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Speaker 1: more than a few minutes. There's a knock on the door.

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Speaker 1: You're sure it's one of the kid's parents picking up

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Speaker 1: a missing toy, but your heart sinks to your stomach

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Speaker 1: when you see that it's the police. You quickly open

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Speaker 1: the door, worry that something might have happened to your husband,

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Speaker 1: who hasn't gotten home from work yet. Hi, there is

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Speaker 1: everything okay? You ask They ask you your name, and

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Speaker 1: they say, ma'am, do you run a daycare out of

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Speaker 1: this house?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 1: I do. What seems to be the problem you'll need

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Speaker 1: to come with us. What do you mean I can

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Speaker 1: right now. I'm getting dinner ready for my kids. Ma'am.

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Speaker 1: You don't understand. You need to turn around and put

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Speaker 1: your hands behind your back. You're under arrest. You'll feel

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Speaker 1: the cold handcuffs tighten around your wrists. What is this

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Speaker 1: all about. There's a child in your care name Maria.

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Speaker 1: You know who Maria is, ma'am. She died from brain

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Speaker 1: injuries after spending the day in your care. So I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna read you your rights. You're speechless, Maria, that little

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Speaker 1: girl who spent one session at your daycare months ago.

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Speaker 1: You can't compute, but you're a mom, and so you

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Speaker 1: leap into action for your kids. You don't want to

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Speaker 1: scare them, so you try to prevent your voice from

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Speaker 1: cracking as you call them over. You tell your fourteen

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Speaker 1: year old look after your little brother. Call your dad,

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Speaker 1: he'll be here soon. Tell him not to worry, and

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Speaker 1: you don't worry. This is all going to work out.

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Speaker 1: You put on a brave face for them, and you

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Speaker 1: try not to panic as one of the officers pushes

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Speaker 1: your head down in that classic move that leads a

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Speaker 1: suspect into the back of a police car. Your world

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Speaker 1: has turned upside down in an instant. As the police

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Speaker 1: car pulls away from your house and down the street

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Speaker 1: toward the county jail. You sit in jail before your

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Speaker 1: trial and replay the events of the day. You watch

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Speaker 1: Maria over and over again in your head. You were

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Speaker 1: sitting on the carpet helping one of the little boys

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Speaker 1: get a train rolling on a track when there was

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Speaker 1: a knock at the door. You answered it and you

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Speaker 1: saw a smiling baby in the arms of her mother.

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Speaker 1: This must be Maria, you said, smiling at the toddler.

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Speaker 1: You took Maria from her mother's arms and helped the

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Speaker 1: little girl wave goodbye with her tiny hand while her

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Speaker 1: mom pulled out of the driveway. Maria was happy and

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Speaker 1: playful all day until about noon. She started crying, and

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Speaker 1: you recognize that as the telltale sign of a tired baby.

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Speaker 1: You put her down for a nap, and a few

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Speaker 1: hours later Maria's mom came back. Maria was still sleeping.

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Speaker 1: You watched her pick Maria up from the crib, trying

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Speaker 1: not to wake her. Maria slept on her mom's shoulder

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Speaker 1: the whole way to the car. You watched as they

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Speaker 1: pulled out of the driveway. That's everything you can remember

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Speaker 1: from that day, but that's not what happened. What you

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Speaker 1: didn't know is that when Maria and her mother pulled

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Speaker 1: up to their home home, Maria was slumped over in

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Speaker 1: her car seat, her head almost in her lap, and

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Speaker 1: she'd thrown up all over herself. Maria wouldn't wake up,

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Speaker 1: so her mom called nine to one one and she

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Speaker 1: was rushed to the hospital. The doctor said that the

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Speaker 1: baby's brain was bleeding and swollen, and her blood sugar

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Speaker 1: was high. The doctors frantically worked on her, trying to

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Speaker 1: revive her, but eventually Maria was put on life support.

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Speaker 1: She died about a week later. Approximately two months after that,

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Speaker 1: the police showed up at your house and arrested you.

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Speaker 1: Sitting in your jail cell, you're paralyzed by the horror

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Speaker 1: of all this. One family lost their baby, and your

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Speaker 1: kids are at home wondering if their mother will be

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Speaker 1: around to watch them grow up. Now it's the day

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Speaker 1: of your trial. Your lawyer doesn't dispute that bleeding and

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Speaker 1: swelling in Maria's brain caused her death, but there was

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Speaker 1: no evidence that it was caused by anything you did.

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Speaker 1: There was no evidence whatsoever that you abused Maria in

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Speaker 1: any way. She didn't have any broken bones, no injuries

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Speaker 1: to her neck or spinal column or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: And there was, in fact another explanation for Maria's injuries.

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Speaker 1: When she had been admitted to the hospital, her blood

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Speaker 1: sugar level was four times higher than what was considered

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Speaker 1: to be normal, and so it was possible that Maria's

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Speaker 1: brain injuries may have been caused by an undiagnosed metabolic

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Speaker 1: disorder like diabetes. But when the prosecution makes its case,

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Speaker 1: the pain and mystery around Maria's death is sharpened to

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Speaker 1: a fine point. A child abused specialist takes the stand

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Speaker 1: and tells the jury that Maria had bleeding and swelling

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Speaker 1: in her brain and bleeding behind her eyes. Let me

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Speaker 1: make it clear, the expert witness said, these injuries mean

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Speaker 1: that Maria incurred physical abuse associated with trauma to the head.

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Speaker 1: There is no other way these injuries could have occurred.

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Speaker 1: You sit there next to your defense attorney and your

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Speaker 1: heart starts beating fast, your sweating. You know what she's

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Speaker 1: saying can't be true. You've been watching kids for your

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Speaker 1: entire adult life. You would never you have never hurt

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Speaker 1: a child, and yet you know that if you were

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Speaker 1: a member of that jury and you heard this testimony

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Speaker 1: from this doctor, that you would probably believe it too.

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Speaker 1: You would also want to be able to hold someone

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Speaker 1: accountable for the death of this innocent child. When the

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Speaker 1: jury goes into their deliberations, you're not just worried about

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Speaker 1: the outcome of your trial. Your heart is also broken

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Speaker 1: for Maria's family. You know you'll never be able to

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Speaker 1: wrap your head around their grief, but you also know

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Speaker 1: that putting an innocent person in prison won't bring their

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Speaker 1: baby back. After just two days of deliberating, the jury

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Speaker 1: comes back with a guilty verdict. You bury your face

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Speaker 1: in your hands as the verdict has read. At your sentencing,

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Speaker 1: the prosecution reads letters from Maria's family. Her mother had

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Speaker 1: addressed one of them to you. It said, you killed

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Speaker 1: my baby? Why? Why did you do this? I beg

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Speaker 1: this coord to give you the maximum sentence possible. You

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Speaker 1: are sentenced to fifteen years in prison for manslaughter. The

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Speaker 1: story you just heard is loosely based on Stephanie Spurgeon's

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Speaker 1: wrongful conviction in two thousand and eight. Innocent people have

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Speaker 1: been convicted based on medical testimony which claims that three

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Speaker 1: symptoms bleeding of the brain, swelling of the brain, and

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Speaker 1: bleeding behind the eyes, indicates a form of child abuse

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Speaker 1: referred to as shaken baby syndrome, but this medical testimony

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Speaker 1: has proven to be problematic. With the help of the

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Speaker 1: Innocence Project and the Exoneration Project from the University of

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Speaker 1: Chicago Law School, the evidence in Stephanie's case was re

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Speaker 1: examined and she was released from prison in August twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: But many others are not as lucky and continue to

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Speaker 1: serve sentences for crimes they did not commit. There's nothing

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Speaker 1: more devastating than the death of a child. When a

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Speaker 1: tragedy like that occurs, it's natural to want answers, how

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Speaker 1: did this happen, who should we hold accountable for this,

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Speaker 1: and what could have been done to prevent it. What

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Speaker 1: might be most difficult for juris to accept is that

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Speaker 1: the death was completely accidental, that there was nothing anyone

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Speaker 1: did to cause it and nothing could have been done

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Speaker 1: to stop it. I'm Josh Dubin, civil rights and criminal

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Speaker 1: defense attorney, an Innocent ambassador to the Innocence Project in

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Speaker 1: New York. Today on Wrongful conviction junk science. We'll explore

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Speaker 1: how what's known as shaken baby syndrome has been used

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Speaker 1: to falsely implicate people in crimes that they did not commit.

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Speaker 1: It turns out that shaken baby syndrome isn't a fool

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Speaker 1: proof diagnosis. There are many other causes for the symptoms

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Speaker 1: of shaken baby syndrome that do not arise from intentionally

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Speaker 1: shaking a baby. In nineteen sixty nine, two scientists put

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Speaker 1: a live reciss monkey under anesthesia and strapped it to

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Speaker 1: a chair made of fiberglass. The fiberglass chair was then

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Speaker 1: attached to roller skate wheels. When the tiny car acceler

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Speaker 1: rated and then decelerated quickly, the passenger's head that is,

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Speaker 1: the monkey's head, was flung backwards then quickly snapped forward.

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Speaker 1: Scientists wanted to study the effect of whiplash during a

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Speaker 1: car crash, so the tiny car with the little monkey

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Speaker 1: passenger was designed to mimic the movement of a car

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Speaker 1: during a rear end collision. Of the fifty monkeys that

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Speaker 1: took a ride in the whiplash car, nineteen of them

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Speaker 1: sustained a concussion. The study proved that direct impact from

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Speaker 1: a hard surface to the head isn't necessary to cause

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Speaker 1: traumatic brain injuries. The human brain can be injured just

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Speaker 1: from a head being violently jerked back and forth, causing

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Speaker 1: the brain to rattle around inside the skull. This study

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Speaker 1: had important repercussions for car safety. It's part of the

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Speaker 1: reason why cars are supposed to have headrests to prevent

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Speaker 1: brain injuries due to whiplash during an accident. But this

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Speaker 1: study also interested a British pediatric neurosurgeon named Norman Guthkelch. Now,

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Speaker 1: Doctor guth Kelch had been noticing infants coming into his

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Speaker 1: office with no outward signs of abuse, no bruising, no

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Speaker 1: broken bones, but they had bleeding around their brain. He

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Speaker 1: wondered if these children had been getting whiplash not from

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Speaker 1: a car crash, but from their parents and caregivers. Now,

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Speaker 1: at the time in Northern England, shaking babies was a

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Speaker 1: socially acceptable way of calming, quieting, and even disciplining a

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Speaker 1: fussy baby. In fact, when doctor Guthkelch saw children with

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Speaker 1: bleeding around their brain, he asked parents if they sometimes

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Speaker 1: shook their child. Many parents readily confess They would say yes,

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Speaker 1: Johnny wouldn't stop crying, so I gave him a good shaking.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Guthkelch suspected that shaking an infant mimicked the motion

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Speaker 1: of whiplash, and so he wrote a short two page paper.

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Speaker 1: It said that trauma to a baby's brain, even when

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Speaker 1: no other signs of physical abuse were present, may in

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Speaker 1: fact be caused by violent shaking. Doctor guth Kelch never

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Speaker 1: claimed that there might not be other causes of bleeding

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Speaker 1: around the brain. He simply hypothesized that shaking might be

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Speaker 1: the cause of it. His hope was that doctors who

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Speaker 1: read his study would help teach parents to handle their

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Speaker 1: infants more gently to avoid accidental harm. After doctor goth

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Speaker 1: Kelch's article was published, other doctors continue to research this issue.

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Speaker 1: They found that three symptoms in particular were associated with

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Speaker 1: shaking a baby. These symptoms were subdural hematoma, retinal hemorrhage,

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Speaker 1: and cerebral edema that is bleeding around the brain, bleeding

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Speaker 1: behind the eyes, and brain swelling. These thymptoms became known

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Speaker 1: as the quote classic triad, the signs that are said

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Speaker 1: to be an indicator of shaken baby syndrome. The problem

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Speaker 1: is that these three symptoms became synonymous with shaken baby

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Speaker 1: syndrome if these three symptoms were present, it was thought

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Speaker 1: that a parent or caretaker must have intentionally shaken their infant,

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Speaker 1: and so when parents showed up to the hospital with

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Speaker 1: a sick child who exhibited some or all of the

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Speaker 1: symptoms of the triad, their children were taken away from them.

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Speaker 1: The parents were put on trial, and they were sometimes

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Speaker 1: convicted of abusing or even killing their own child. As

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Speaker 1: parents started to be accused of child abuse based solely

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Speaker 1: on the hypothesis of shaken baby syndrome, doctor Gothkelch knew

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Speaker 1: he had to do something He never meant for his

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Speaker 1: short paper to be used as a tool for prosecution.

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Speaker 1: The whole point of his paper was to help parents,

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Speaker 1: not criminalize them. Doctor guth Kelch continued to fight for

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Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted parents and caregivers up until he died in

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen at the ripe age of one hundred and

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Speaker 1: one years old.

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Speaker 2: No one was really suggesting that this should be a

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Speaker 2: mechanism for prosecuting anyone. They acknowledged, and you know, pretty

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Speaker 2: clearly articulated that what they were talking about was a

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Speaker 2: hypothesis about why children might have these findings. But it

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Speaker 2: then started to be used as a paradigm for prosecution,

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Speaker 2: and that's really where it runs into trouble because instead

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Speaker 2: of continuing to research and look for answers, physicians and

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Speaker 2: prosecutors started to accept it without you know, looking further

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Speaker 2: into the kinds of claims that experts were making about it.

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Speaker 1: Today on our show, we're speaking with Kate Judson. Kate

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Speaker 1: is the executive director for the Center Integrity and Forensic Sciences,

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Speaker 1: and she was one of the lawyers who represented Stephanie Spurgeon,

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Speaker 1: whose story we discussed at the beginning of our show.

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Speaker 1: So to start tell us about what we should understand

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Speaker 1: about the difference between shaking baby syndrome as a hypothesis

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Speaker 1: rather than as a diagnosis.

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Speaker 2: I think there are a lot of ways in which

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Speaker 2: it differs significantly from other medical diagnoses. So child abuse

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Speaker 2: and particularly shaken baby syndrome is much more a determination

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Speaker 2: of etiology of how somebody got the medical findings than

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Speaker 2: the medical findings themselves. So the kinds of findings that

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Speaker 2: are often attributed to child abuse in shaken baby syndrome

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Speaker 2: and abusive head trauma cases can be due to trauma,

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Speaker 2: but it isn't always, So there are medical conditions that

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Speaker 2: can cause these kinds of medical findings as well, and

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Speaker 2: so sometimes the evidence of actual innocence is new medical

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Speaker 2: opinion that support the idea that the child had a

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Speaker 2: disease or another kind of condition that led to their

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Speaker 2: medical findings, rather than any kind of trauma or abuse.

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Speaker 1: So let's back off for a second to when this

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Speaker 1: first started to be used at trial. How did this

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Speaker 1: diagnosis become something that prosecutors were able to weaponize against defendants.

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Speaker 2: Part of what makes it seductive if you're trying to

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Speaker 2: protect children and punish wrongdoing is that it seemed at

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Speaker 2: the time very definitive. Physicians were saying, if a child

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Speaker 2: has this set of injuries, they have been abused, and

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Speaker 2: that abuse consisted of shaking, and we know that, and

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Speaker 2: there are no exceptions, or very very few exceptions. I mean,

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Speaker 2: in fact, at the time, there are plenty of transcripts

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Speaker 2: available where physicians said nothing else causes this, right, and

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Speaker 2: so it gives a very clear and definitive answer. Has

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Speaker 2: to wonder, in the face of such an answer, what

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Speaker 2: happened to a child who died, who previously would have

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Speaker 2: no explanation for their death. It's definitive, it's clear and frankly,

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Speaker 2: really effective in court, often resulting in a conviction almost

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Speaker 2: all the time. So I think that it gave people

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Speaker 2: who were involved in the criminal legal system the impression

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Speaker 2: that they were successfully locking up people who were dangerous

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Speaker 2: who had murdered a child. And it turns out it's

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Speaker 2: not that straightforward.

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Speaker 1: So tell us more about other ways a child can

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Speaker 1: come to have the same kind of symptoms or the

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Speaker 1: same sort of trauma that are usually associated with shaking

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Speaker 1: baby syndrome.

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Speaker 2: There are things like infection, serious infection, genetic disorder, problems

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Speaker 2: with blood clotting, certain kinds of tumors, certain kinds of

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Speaker 2: blood cloths, you know, like a pediatric stroke. There are

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Speaker 2: cases where the medical findings are thought to have arisen

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Speaker 2: after events like choking. But what really started to come

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Speaker 2: to light in twenty sixteen there was a report done

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Speaker 2: by the Swedish government that looked at medical literature that

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Speaker 2: discussed you know what is colloquially called the triad that

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Speaker 2: the combination of subdralhemotoma, rental hemorrhage, and cerebral edema, and

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Speaker 2: looked at children who were diagnosed as and studies of

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Speaker 2: children who are diagnosed as being abused based on those findings.

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Speaker 2: But they found was that the data was not there,

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Speaker 2: that it was very incomplete, and they recommended that the

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Speaker 2: Swedish government no longer prosecute people under that paradigm. And

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Speaker 2: the reaction that that got from, you know, child advocates

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Speaker 2: and child abuset pediatricians was simply to attack the people

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Speaker 2: who did the report. You know, there's been a real

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Speaker 2: lack of serious engagement around the failings in the literature

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Speaker 2: that everybody knows are there, and so that is really

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Speaker 2: a shame and that's not how science progresses, and that's

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Speaker 2: not how people get fair trials. People who who are

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Speaker 2: admirably concerned about protecting children have unfortunately written things like

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Speaker 2: editorials in journals, engaging in personal attacks instead of trying

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Speaker 2: to figure out how to best approach these kinds of cases.

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Speaker 1: And that's part of what makes studying and being critical

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Speaker 1: of the shaken baby hypothesis really difficult. People often assume

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Speaker 1: that critics of shaking baby syndrome are trying to side

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Speaker 1: with child abusers, and of course that's not the case. Researchers, doctors,

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Speaker 1: lawyers who are critical of shaking baby syndrome are just

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Speaker 1: trying to make sure that people don't get accused of

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Speaker 1: crime they didn't commit based on misleading evidence. And on

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Speaker 1: the other side of this battle, there are well meaning

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Speaker 1: people who are trying to protect children from abuse. I

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Speaker 1: know that expert witnesses and cases involving child abuse are

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Speaker 1: often doctors, So tell us more about that. Who are

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Speaker 1: the doctors who testify during these cases for the prosecution

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Speaker 1: as experts?

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Speaker 2: So there are different kinds of physicians. They're not always

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Speaker 2: child abuse pediatricians, but they frequently are child abuse pediatricians.

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Speaker 2: There are about three hundred child abuse pediatricians in the

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Speaker 2: United States. It's a new subspecialty. I believe the first

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Speaker 2: child abuse pediatricians were board certified in twenty eleven, so

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Speaker 2: it's quite new. So their job is to evaluate children

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Speaker 2: in hospitals or clinics for child abuse and yes, to

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Speaker 2: testify in cases or to create reports for law enforcement

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Speaker 2: agencies for the courts.

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Speaker 1: So that's interesting. I guess talking about biases, I could

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Speaker 1: imagine that someone who's trained to look for child abuse

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Speaker 1: could just start seeing abuse everywhere. It's what they know,

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Speaker 1: it's what they study, it's what they look for. They think,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is a symptom that comes up with

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Speaker 1: people who are victims of abuse, so it must be abused.

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Speaker 1: It's you know, becomes difficult to see outside of your

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Speaker 1: own tunnel vision. And so when a medical specialty is

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Speaker 1: geared directly towards one conclusion or looking out for one thing,

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Speaker 1: of course, even with the best of intentions, it could

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Speaker 1: be easy for these doctors to get tunnel vision right.

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Speaker 2: That's a real concern when analysts are, for example, embedded

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Speaker 2: with law enforcement. When the crime lab is part of

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Speaker 2: the police department, for example, we see this role affects bias.

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Speaker 2: Analysts start to see themselves as part of the law

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Speaker 2: enforcement team rather than as an objective, independent scientist. But

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Speaker 2: the same issue was present when child abuse pediatricians are

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Speaker 2: part of a child abuse team, especially when those teams

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Speaker 2: involve police and investigators and prosecutors and don't involve people,

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Speaker 2: for example, from the defense bar. And since they're all

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Speaker 2: human beings, it's not unreasonable to say that the same

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Speaker 2: concerns we have about analysts housed within a police station

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Speaker 2: or who work very closely with police and prosecutors, that

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Speaker 2: other kinds of experts might be subject to those same biases.

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Speaker 1: I think another reason that there are so many wrongful

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Speaker 1: convictions when people are accused of abuse is that everybody involved, jurors,

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Speaker 1: the lawyers, the doctors, they don't want to get it

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Speaker 1: wrong because, let's just face it, setting a potential child

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Speaker 1: abuse are free is a scary proposition. The stakes are

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Speaker 1: very high in these cases.

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Speaker 2: So really often I hear people respond to these concerns,

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Speaker 2: particularly people who are who are working in kind of

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Speaker 2: the child abuse field, respond to these concerns about wrongful

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Speaker 2: convictions by saying, well, we just want to air on

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Speaker 2: the side of the child, right, But in these kinds

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Speaker 2: of cases there's really no way to do that. Any

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Speaker 2: error is harmful. This idea that you can air safely

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Speaker 2: on the side of the child is a false one.

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Speaker 2: And that's because if you get this wrong. If a

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Speaker 2: child is being diagnosed as or being determined to have

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Speaker 2: been abused and they haven't been, a couple of things

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Speaker 2: can happen. One is that a child can be deprived

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Speaker 2: of a loving home and separated from loving parents and caregivers,

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Speaker 2: and studies have shown over and over and over again

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Speaker 2: that separating children from their family is traumatic. It is

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Speaker 2: sometimes a necessary harm, but it is always harmful.

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Speaker 1: Even from people who are just accused of child abuse

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Speaker 1: and they don't get convicted but just have to go

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Speaker 1: through the trial, that in itself can be so damaging

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Speaker 1: to children and their families.

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Speaker 2: I mean it's anecdotal, but I pretty frequently hear from

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Speaker 2: families who say, like, we're really grateful that nobody in

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Speaker 2: our family was convicted, but our kids are still suffering

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Speaker 2: all kinds of harm and problems from the trauma that

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Speaker 2: was inflicted upon them just from even a brief separation.

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Speaker 2: So there may very well be good reason reasons to

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Speaker 2: separate families, But what we can't do is go to

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Speaker 2: court and say that the abuse is more definitive than

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Speaker 2: the science actually supports, if that makes sense. The other

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Speaker 2: problem is that when these cases are not medically investigated carefully,

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Speaker 2: there is the chance that a child will be classified

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Speaker 2: as having been abused when they actually have a serious illness,

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Speaker 2: and that is also really problematic can potentially lead to

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Speaker 2: more harm or even death because of that misdiagnosis.

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Speaker 1: It seems almost unlikely that evidence in child abuse cases

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Speaker 1: can be similar to other forensic disciplines that we've talked

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Speaker 1: about on our show. But it turns out that the

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Speaker 1: same tactics use to convict people based on faulty pattern

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Speaker 1: matching evidence, for example, is really the same thing we're

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Speaker 1: dealing with here. In instances of alleged child abuse.

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Speaker 2: The kind of biases that we see in other kinds

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Speaker 2: of forensic sciences are certainly present here. And because there

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Speaker 2: is no gold standard criteria, no simple or single test

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Speaker 2: that allows anybody to make a diagnosis of child abuse,

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Speaker 2: you end up having to fall back on so much

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Speaker 2: subjectivity of the person examining the child and looking at

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Speaker 2: the facts, and what we know from pattern matching disciplines

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Speaker 2: in particular, but also things like ourson investigation, is that

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Speaker 2: the more subjectivity that is introduced into the system, the

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Speaker 2: less reliable your result can be. Sometimes when you look

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Speaker 2: at the breakdown of cases where people get wrongfully convicted

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Speaker 2: based on faulty forensic science, and a majority of them,

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Speaker 2: part of the faulty forensic science is that the expert

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Speaker 2: spoke to the jury with more certainty than the science warranted.

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Speaker 2: The same is true in cases with medical testimony. So

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Speaker 2: when a doctor says that a fracture or a subdural

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Speaker 2: hematoma or a retinal hemorrhage can only be caused by

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Speaker 2: child abuse, and there's no other explanation that is definitive.

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Speaker 2: It is convincing that is stated with more certainty than

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Speaker 2: the science can support, and that can certainly lead to

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Speaker 2: an unfair trial and a wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 1: So, in your opinion, when something as tragic as a

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Speaker 1: baby dying happens, what can we do to make sure

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Speaker 1: that the cause of death is determined correctly so that

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Speaker 1: parents and caretakers stop being wrongfully accused based on this

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Speaker 1: shaken baby high ypothesis.

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Speaker 2: There really should be really rigorous testing in all of

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Speaker 2: these cases, and not every case out there gets the

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Speaker 2: benefit of really careful, comprehensive testing. There's actually kind of

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Speaker 2: a famous case that a district attorney from Queen's has

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Speaker 2: used in a bunch of presentations where there was a

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Speaker 2: videotaped fall. A child fell at a mall and off

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Speaker 2: of just a really short fall off of a piece

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Speaker 2: of playground equipment and later died, and investigators embarked upon

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Speaker 2: an extremely complex and comprehensive medical evaluation, and when they

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Speaker 2: did that, they found that there were potentially some blood

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Speaker 2: disorders lurking within the family. And while the child who

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Speaker 2: died never definitively tested positive for a bleeding disorder. Her

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Speaker 2: parents were carrying genes that suggested that she may have

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Speaker 2: had one that may have contributed to her death. But

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Speaker 2: I have to tell you that it's uncommon that that

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Speaker 2: kind of testing is done. I have seen it become

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Speaker 2: more common, and hopefully it will continue to become more common.

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Speaker 2: But that's just a great example of a really thorough

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Speaker 2: evaluation clarifying that a deceased child died because of a

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Speaker 2: tragic accident, not because anybody hurt her.

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Speaker 1: When I think about people convicted based on this type

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Speaker 1: of evidence, it's usually a parent that we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: Someone who has just lost their child, is going through

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Speaker 1: this unimaginable tragedy, and then to be accused of being

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Speaker 1: the one that actually inflicted this harm. It's a lot

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Speaker 1: to wrap your head around. It's like too much to bear.

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Speaker 2: For parents who go through this. They have a double tragedy,

437
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 2: right They have the loss of the life or health

438
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 2: of their child, which is incredibly tragic, and then they

439
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 2: have this prosecution, which threatens their freedom, often threatens their

440
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 2: relationship with their other children. In some of these cases,

441
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: parents might lose custody of other children in the family.

442
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 2: It's horrifying.

443
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: It's horrifying as a lawyer to it. It must be

444
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: difficult to be watching this unfold.

445
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an incredibly emotional situation. And in fact, there

446
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 2: are some lawyers who find these cases so disturbing and

447
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: disruptive that they do one and they never want to

448
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: do another one. You do care about that happening. I mean,

449
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 2: it's not easy. It's always difficult. They are very emotional,

450
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 2: they are very upsetting. It is difficult to be there

451
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 2: for someone who has gone through, like, like I said,

452
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,479
Speaker 2: this double tragedy, right where a child that you know

453
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 2: that they loved and cared about is gone or very

454
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 2: or were very different, and then they've they've been accused

455
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 2: of this crime they didn't commit. It's it's it's terrible.

456
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: I think the only reason why I feel compelled to

457
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 2: keep doing it is that what has happened to these

458
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 2: folks is wrong and someone has to help them and

459
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 2: stand up for them. It's not an easy thing, but

460
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 2: I think it's a necessary one.

461
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: When I agreed to host this podcast, I set out

462
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: to expose some of the many flaws that exist in

463
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:31,719
Speaker 1: our criminal justice system. Specifically, what I wanted to do

464
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: was address what goes wrong when jurors are presented with

465
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: what they are told as science but actually turns out

466
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 1: to be well junk. The harms of junk science go

467
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: beyond innocent people having to endure the unthinkable nightmare of

468
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,479
Speaker 1: being accused and convicted of crimes they did not commit.

469
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: The consequences extend even further than those people having to

470
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: endure the rawst and most cutting of human suffering, being

471
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: torn from their life and locked in a cage. In

472
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: addition to that human tragedy, junk science causes the moral

473
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: fabric of our judicial system to wear and tear at

474
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: the seams. It causes an entire institution of law and

475
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: order and justice to be completely undermined. In examining the

476
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: various disciplines of forensic science we've discussed this season, whether

477
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: it was our sin or blood spatter, eyewitness identification, or,

478
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: as in this episode, shaking baby syndrome, I knew it

479
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: would be interesting and enlightening, but I never expected it

480
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: to affect me in the profound manner that it has.

481
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: I have been in turns dumbfounded, angry, saddened, and even outraged,

482
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: a trial is supposed to be a search for the truth.

483
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: The word science itself is defined as the study of

484
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. Our

485
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: system of justice has been regarded as not perfect, but

486
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: the best way to ensure that people who are accused

487
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: of crimes get the fairest shake possible. So how is

488
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: our system of justice veered so far off the tracks?

489
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: How have we managed to bastardize and bludgeon What science means?

490
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: I don't know if we can ever arrive at a

491
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: clear answer. There are probably many explanations. One thing I

492
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: do know is that when human beings get involved in

493
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: any endeavor, we bring our own biases, or thirst for

494
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: financial gain, or hunches and quirks into the equation, and

495
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: in the process we sometimes create such a mess that

496
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: it becomes difficult to untangle the hows and whys of

497
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: it all. But I still manage to find hope and

498
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: a way forward. And here's why. If you've ever been

499
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: fortunate enough to meet someone that has spent time in

500
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: prison for a crime they didn't commit, one thing becomes

501
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: apparent very quickly. They are the embodiment of all that

502
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: is soaring and remarkable about the human condition. They are

503
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: a special combination of resilience, hope, forgiveness and strength. They

504
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: are quite simply a force of nature. So I will

505
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: continue to pour my energy, every cell in my body

506
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: into helping those who are still behind bars for crimes

507
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: they did not commit. I will fight to restore signs

508
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: to its proper definition in our courtrooms. I am propelled

509
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: by these men and women that represent the triumph of

510
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,959
Speaker 1: the human soul. To restore one's life and freedom is

511
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: perhaps the highest service to your fellow human being. I

512
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: can't even find the words to describe what it's like

513
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 1: to walk someone out of a nightmare of a prison

514
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 1: cell and into the bright light of freedom, to restore

515
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: a life. The only way I can articulate it is that,

516
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: aside from marrying my wife and the birth of my children,

517
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: it is and always will be my most important contribution

518
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 1: to my fellow human beings. There is nothing I have

519
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 1: done in this life or could ever fathom doing, that

520
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 1: can ever come close. No material gain, no drug, no drink,

521
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 1: nothing at all that can approach the state of nirvana

522
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: that consumes your soul when you have helped save a life.

523
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 1: And I think that says a lot about who we are.

524
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: At our essence. We are meant to be of service

525
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 1: to one another, to heal each other, to restore each other.

526
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: Not a bad message, if I do say so myself,

527
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:08,919
Speaker 1: at a time when it seems like we could really

528
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: use it, I encourage all of you to continue to

529
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: keep your voices up, write those letters to your local

530
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 1: prosecutors and judges, be a more conscientious juror pitching in

531
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 1: any way that you can. Together we can ensure that

532
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: one day there will be no more wrongful convictions. Based

533
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: on Junk Science. Wrongful Conviction Junk Science is a production

534
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 1: of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company

535
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: Number One. Thanks to our executive producer Jason Flahm and

536
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 1: the team at Signal Company Number one executive producer Kevin

537
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: Wartis and senior producers Karen Krnhaber and Britain Spangler. Our

538
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: music was composed by Jay Ralph. You can follow me

539
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: on Instagram at dubin Josh, follow the Wrongful Conviction podcast

540
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: on Facebook and on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

541
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: Twitter at wrong Conviction