Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Todd
Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1: As a podcaster who makes a podcast about misinformation, conspiracy theories,
Speaker 1: extremism and how they intact marginalized people, I feel like
Speaker 1: it's time to weigh in on Joe Rogan. So, in
Speaker 1: case you don't know, Joe Rogan's podcast, The Joe Rogan
Speaker 1: Experience has a nasty habit of platforming misinformation and bigotry.
Speaker 1: Rogan and his guests have amplified lives about transpokes, women,
Speaker 1: climate change. The list goes on, but right now his
Speaker 1: misleading and incorrect statements about COVID are what's got him
Speaker 1: in the spotlight. Rogan brought on serial misinformer Robert Malone,
Speaker 1: who was already suspended from Twitter for spreading inaccurate information
Speaker 1: about COVID, to promote the quote Defeat the Mandate rally
Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. Last month. Rogan discouraged young people
Speaker 1: getting vaccinated, which is especially troubling given the average age
Speaker 1: of his listenership as twenty four years old, and, according
Speaker 1: to data from Washington State, unvaccinated twelves to thirty four
Speaker 1: year old are five times more likely to be hospitalized
Speaker 1: with COVID than those who are fully vaccinated. Now, hundreds
Speaker 1: of doctors and public health professionals have published an open
Speaker 1: letter to Spotify, who exclusively publishes Joe Rogan's podcast, calling
Speaker 1: the streaming company out for the way the podcast they
Speaker 1: produce has spread COVID misinformation, and asking Spotify to establish
Speaker 1: a clear and public policy to moderate misinformation on its platform.
Speaker 1: India are Roxanne Gage, Joni Mitchell, and others have joined
Speaker 1: Neil Young in taking their content off Spotify. In response,
Speaker 1: Spotify released a pretty weak clarification of their misinformation moderation policy,
Speaker 1: which doesn't really do much to address the kind of
Speaker 1: misinformation that Rogan spreads on his podcast. In a statement,
Speaker 1: Spotify CEO said, it is important to me that we
Speaker 1: don't take on the position of being a content sensor,
Speaker 1: also making sure that there are rules in place and
Speaker 1: consequent is for those who violate them. Now, in that statement,
Speaker 1: Spotify makes it sound like Rogan it's just another podcaster
Speaker 1: on their platform, but he's not. Spotify exclusively produces rogan
Speaker 1: show and pays him of reported a hundred million dollars
Speaker 1: a year to do so. So what happens when someone
Speaker 1: has paid a hundred million dollars to spread conspiracy theories, misinformation, bigotry,
Speaker 1: and lies. My name is Abby Richards and I'm a
Speaker 1: misinformation researchers slash tick talker. Abby Richards is a disinformation researcher,
Speaker 1: science communicator, and a friend of the show, and she
Speaker 1: says that Spotify's misinformation policy leaves a lot to be desired. So, Abby,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you were able to join me today. Um,
Speaker 1: I have gone kind of a while without talking about
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan, and I think it's time to talk about
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan. It's time. It's time. Well, first of all,
Speaker 1: just as someone who is a misinformation researcher, what are
Speaker 1: your thoughts on his show, what he does, like, what
Speaker 1: are your initial thoughts? You know, I don't love it.
Speaker 1: I'm not like, I'm not a j R. E bro Uh.
Speaker 1: I have just witnessed like way too much misinformation and
Speaker 1: general kind of bigotry and hatred on that platform to
Speaker 1: then go ahead and be like, oh, I just love
Speaker 1: how he interviews people so personally. Yeah, I'm not I'm
Speaker 1: not a huge fan are you no, It's so funny.
Speaker 1: A few months ago, before this UM Spotify issue was
Speaker 1: really in the news, I was at a hotel bar
Speaker 1: with my producer Mike, and we were I don't remember
Speaker 1: where we were coming back from, but we were getting
Speaker 1: a drink and there was this very obnoxious guy at
Speaker 1: the bar, like drunk, loud, obnoxious, and he was trying
Speaker 1: to really engage us in conversation and we were sort
Speaker 1: of not having it. And I think for some reason,
Speaker 1: we were talking about Burning Man, Mike and I and
Speaker 1: this guy was like, oh, hey, I have a buddy
Speaker 1: who goes to Burning Man with with Joe Rogan every year.
Speaker 1: And we looked at each other and Mike just went, so,
Speaker 1: why would you tell us this had no idea that
Speaker 1: we also have a podcast basically, which I feel like
Speaker 1: it is a little bit of like an anti Joe Rogan,
Speaker 1: like a podcast where we talk about the dangers of
Speaker 1: things like misinformation, conspiracy theories, extremism, Like he could not
Speaker 1: have picked a worse a worst way to try to
Speaker 1: impress us. Oh yeah, I mean your podcast is literally
Speaker 1: there are no girls on the Internet, and Joe Rogan
Speaker 1: is literally we have no girls on the show yes
Speaker 1: exactly exactly. So, you know, what did you think about
Speaker 1: seeing all of these high profile folks from Neil Young, India,
Speaker 1: ari Um now Rock Sandgate removing their content from Spotify
Speaker 1: in reaction to their you know, really unwillingness to do
Speaker 1: anything about the misinformation that he spread so often. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think it's I think it's great. I
Speaker 1: think it's been surprisingly powerful. I wasn't necessarily expecting it
Speaker 1: to have as big of like a ripple in the
Speaker 1: in the water as it did. What were your thoughts
Speaker 1: on there? I'm not even gonna say that they renewed
Speaker 1: like it just seemed like they were saying, like, oh,
Speaker 1: we do have a covidness information policy, but it wasn't
Speaker 1: for me. I didn't really feel like it was the
Speaker 1: kind of policy that you would expect a platform of
Speaker 1: that size to be putting out, you know, in now
Speaker 1: the what second year of a pandemic. Yeah, you would
Speaker 1: expect it to be a little bit more coherent and
Speaker 1: thought through. And and the fact that it took all
Speaker 1: of this pressure to get the tiniest bit of transparency
Speaker 1: into the existing policy that they had is uh. It
Speaker 1: says quite a bit about how reluctant. These platforms are
Speaker 1: to be transparent about their policies. Uh. And then so
Speaker 1: really what they did is they published their existing policies,
Speaker 1: which I'm going to also say, like, weren't they were
Speaker 1: quite lenient, um to the point where it seems as
Speaker 1: though you're able to say that like the back scenes
Speaker 1: caused death, but just as long as you don't say
Speaker 1: that they were designed to do so. And you know,
Speaker 1: they don't really cover wearing masks, and uh, they don't
Speaker 1: cover a large large range of medical misinformation that Joe
Speaker 1: Rogan has spread on his show. Great to see the transparency,
Speaker 1: but I would like to see more coherent and thought
Speaker 1: out policies. And then in addition to that, they just
Speaker 1: like said they were going to put content warnings on misinformation,
Speaker 1: which isn't really shown to be effective. Like I don't
Speaker 1: consider that, uh a solid strategy to colm that misinformation,
Speaker 1: especially not when you're literally funding the misinformation yourself. Again,
Speaker 1: it seems to illustrate to me that Spotify is kind
Speaker 1: of hoping that folks won't ask too many questions about
Speaker 1: their the nature of the relationship they have with Joe Rogan,
Speaker 1: because I feel like it's one thing to put content.
Speaker 1: It's one thing for Twitter to put a content warning
Speaker 1: on a user's tweet, right to say like, oh, well
Speaker 1: this so you know this tweet contains an accurate information.
Speaker 1: It's another thing for Spotify to invite Joe Rogan to
Speaker 1: exclusively make content with them, pay him handsomely for that content,
Speaker 1: be the only place where you can find that content,
Speaker 1: and then kind of pretend like, oh, we can just
Speaker 1: put a content warning on it. That's the that's the
Speaker 1: as far as we can go in terms of dealing
Speaker 1: with it. Like that seems like the bare minimum, to
Speaker 1: the point where it's almost meaningless. It's almost nothing, And
Speaker 1: you know, I do think that they're kind of hoping
Speaker 1: that people won't ask too many questions so that they
Speaker 1: can continue to treat Joe Rogan like any other individual
Speaker 1: content creator that they have on their platform, as opposed
Speaker 1: to what they actually are, which is like his publisher.
Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, did you see the leaked speech UM
Speaker 1: published a few hours ago where the CEO went into
Speaker 1: a whole spiel about whether or not they are a
Speaker 1: publisher or a platform, And it's like, I mean, even
Speaker 1: as if you were just a platform, you still should
Speaker 1: have some responsibility for what is on your platform, but
Speaker 1: you also are specifically funding, like sponsoring this particular content
Speaker 1: on your platform, So you might not have editorial control,
Speaker 1: but you still have some liability there. I think that
Speaker 1: the statement they released was very much like an attempt
Speaker 1: to make the problem go away, just really hoping that
Speaker 1: this in action looked enough like action that everybody would
Speaker 1: wave their hands and be like, oh, that's fine. I
Speaker 1: guess I have seen a lot of toothless tech double
Speaker 1: speak in my day that really means nothing. That was
Speaker 1: really that was like the Mona Lisa of toothless tech
Speaker 1: meaningless double speak. Pr right, Like, let's say a bunch
Speaker 1: of things. Let's let's sort of say like we're listening,
Speaker 1: we hear you definitely make a nod to free speech,
Speaker 1: say like make a nod de fact that you're not
Speaker 1: gonna cave to other people's voices. It really hit all
Speaker 1: the marks, and I do I agree with you. I
Speaker 1: think that they're kind of hoping that this problem will
Speaker 1: sort of go away on its own, or that, like
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan put out that video statement, they put out
Speaker 1: a statement. I think that they're hoping that that's going
Speaker 1: to be enough. Um, you know, the Rock has chimed
Speaker 1: in and said, like perfectly put, like, let's time to
Speaker 1: do on your show soon, Joe Rogan. Um. And I
Speaker 1: think it's just I think for me, it's really depressing
Speaker 1: because I believe that Spotify is re establishing a precedent,
Speaker 1: and that precedent is that if you are like, there
Speaker 1: is a market for lies, Like if you tell lies
Speaker 1: and spread misinformation and extremism, there is a market for that.
Speaker 1: And so I think the question we need to ask
Speaker 1: ourselves it's like, are we comfortable with our media our
Speaker 1: media landscape really handsome, rewarding and amplifying lies for profit.
Speaker 1: And I think it's it's done so much to make
Speaker 1: our our media is so much more toxic. Absolutely, And
Speaker 1: you think about how Joe Rogan really promotes controversial figures,
Speaker 1: and of course he claims he doesn't intend to do that,
Speaker 1: but like controversy brings in eyes and ears, and like
Speaker 1: it's quite clear that Rogan has a history of platforming
Speaker 1: people who promote misinformation, promote bigotry, climate change denial, a
Speaker 1: lot of transphobia, like so much transphobia. Uh, it's and
Speaker 1: it's not just like allowed, it's being paid for like
Speaker 1: for exclusivity, like Spotify was like, we want this and
Speaker 1: we want you to be special so that you attract
Speaker 1: more users to our platform. Like they he serves a
Speaker 1: role there to bring more users to them and make
Speaker 1: money for them, and they are fundamentally profiting off of
Speaker 1: that kind of controversy. And I'm very frustrated. It is frustrating,
Speaker 1: And you know, you you brought brought up a good point. Obviously,
Speaker 1: the conversation that's really been in the news right now
Speaker 1: is COVID asum COVID misinformation. But I guess my question is,
Speaker 1: I have listened to a lot of Joe Rogan show.
Speaker 1: I know that the transphobia is is so alarming, Like
Speaker 1: the amount of lies about trans people that that him
Speaker 1: and his guest trafficking is pretty appolloged. Uh, the climate denialism,
Speaker 1: you know, he he did apologize for this, but when
Speaker 1: he said that leftists were the ones setting wildfires out
Speaker 1: in the west, right right, like things like this, I
Speaker 1: guess my question is, why do you think that it's
Speaker 1: the COVID misinformation specifically that really sticks when we talk
Speaker 1: about this issue. But the lies that he tells about
Speaker 1: trans people, the lies that he tells about climate don't
Speaker 1: seem to stick quite as much because, in my perspective,
Speaker 1: those those things are also medical misinformation and public health misinformation. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's a lot of systemic inequality
Speaker 1: behind it. I think it's I'm happy to see that
Speaker 1: we are having this public conversation about his medical misinformation
Speaker 1: on the platform. UM, But it is fundamentally really limited
Speaker 1: to COVID, And it does seem like people are more
Speaker 1: motivated by the pandemic than necessarily racial racial issues or
Speaker 1: trans issues, UM. And I think that speaks to the
Speaker 1: what the public fundamentally cares about. And I hate that
Speaker 1: we are up against so much when it comes to
Speaker 1: inequality that we really have to when when it comes
Speaker 1: to an issue that pertains to marginalize people, we really
Speaker 1: have to shout for people to hear us. You really
Speaker 1: have to scream for people to hear us. And I
Speaker 1: think that COVID. You know, I think it's easier for
Speaker 1: some folks to to to see a demonstrable untruth about COVID,
Speaker 1: like oh, young people shouldn't get vaccinated and say, oh,
Speaker 1: that's a problem. But not but see the way that
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan will tell a demonstrable untruth about trans people,
Speaker 1: like he has said that trans people do I experience
Speaker 1: real discrimination, they bring it on themselves. That's demonstrably untrue.
Speaker 1: I think that there's something that makes it easier for
Speaker 1: folks to respond when it's about COVID, and it's just
Speaker 1: easier for it to go unchecked, unacknowledged, or for maybe
Speaker 1: people to say like, oh, that's just his opinion, or
Speaker 1: you know, I think that it's it's It shows how
Speaker 1: much further we have to go in terms of helping
Speaker 1: people understand that misinformation is often identity based, that's often
Speaker 1: racialized and gendered in this way, and it's it's really
Speaker 1: really harmful, like real world harm, the same way that
Speaker 1: COVID health misinformation is yea, and I mean, and we
Speaker 1: think of how a lot of this criticism started was
Speaker 1: with like doctors and scientists and science educators who already
Speaker 1: had existing platforms and are already you know, exist within
Speaker 1: this realm of privilege and having their voices elevated, which
Speaker 1: is great. I'm happy to have doctors and scientists voices elevated,
Speaker 1: but I do think it speaks to just how their
Speaker 1: voices are treated as you know, more worthy of attention
Speaker 1: than necessarily uh, large groups of marginalized people who have
Speaker 1: been speaking out against Joe Rogan for ages. Now, oh
Speaker 1: that's such a good point. Let's a quick break out
Speaker 1: our back feminists, black women, queer folks, trans folks. They
Speaker 1: have been saying for the longest time, and also me
Speaker 1: personally as a podcaster, I've been saying like this, Joe
Speaker 1: Rogan's like his stick is harmful, and I feel like
Speaker 1: people didn't listen and it's Taylor's oldest time, like folks
Speaker 1: don't listen until it's kind of everyone's problem. That is
Speaker 1: something that we talk about extensively on this show. Um.
Speaker 1: But I also think there's this idea that I think
Speaker 1: that Joe Rogan really perpetuates that he's just asking questions
Speaker 1: or you know, he says like, oh, I'm not a doctor,
Speaker 1: don't take my advice, or you know, my guest says this,
Speaker 1: and I don't know enough to push back, and as
Speaker 1: someone who makes a podcast, I know that that's not true. Right,
Speaker 1: Like I'm not an expert on a lot of things,
Speaker 1: but I decide who comes onto my show. I decide,
Speaker 1: you know, who to platform, and it's just it's just
Speaker 1: this kind of feigning of ignorance that I feel is
Speaker 1: so powerful but so frustrating. Yeah. I go back and
Speaker 1: forth on whether it's famed or whether he just really
Speaker 1: is like that much of just an idiot who has
Speaker 1: just fallen upwards and upwards and upwards into having podcasts
Speaker 1: where for some reason people listen to him talk for
Speaker 1: three hours And it's like, I can't really tell um
Speaker 1: because it's such a perfect excuse to be like, well,
Speaker 1: I didn't know, you know, how was I going to
Speaker 1: know that when I had this guest on that I
Speaker 1: booked and supposedly should have researched what kinds of things
Speaker 1: they were going to say before platforming them, and you know,
Speaker 1: maybe listen to the edit of my podcast before I
Speaker 1: posted it. Uh, all of those very basic things that
Speaker 1: I do for my TikTok's I would expect him to
Speaker 1: do for his world's largest podcast, But apparently it hasn't
Speaker 1: occurred to him that he has any any responsibility. Yes,
Speaker 1: you just put that so wonderfully. I think that's one
Speaker 1: of the reasons. I mean, I don't want to sound
Speaker 1: like I'm just crapping on another podcaster, but it's it's something.
Speaker 1: It's very frustrating to watch. And I know that so
Speaker 1: many people who make content, whether it's TikTok's like you
Speaker 1: or podcasts like me, they put so much effort and
Speaker 1: craft and care into it, and so hearing like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't even listen to them. I don't even prepare.
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm gonna say before until I
Speaker 1: say it's like, wow, we really are having different experiences
Speaker 1: when it comes to creating or content. Something fundamentally different
Speaker 1: is happening here. A part of the reason why I
Speaker 1: almost by his act of just like really being that
Speaker 1: ignorant is I think that like he is somebody who
Speaker 1: just would never have ever been affected by this sort
Speaker 1: of misinformation and hate it that he allows on his platform,
Speaker 1: and therefore he doesn't have any understanding of why he
Speaker 1: needs to have responsibility like I could. I could maybe
Speaker 1: understand if he really smokes as much weak as he
Speaker 1: does seem to like, how he could end up in
Speaker 1: that position of just like I don't know, I just
Speaker 1: like listen, I just listen to other people talk and
Speaker 1: post it. But like, you have a responsibility, and if
Speaker 1: you don't, if you refuse to take that responsibility seriously,
Speaker 1: then like why do you deserve to have the platform
Speaker 1: that you do? That's such a good question, and and
Speaker 1: platforms they they do come like even if you have
Speaker 1: a small platform, it comes with responsibility. And I think
Speaker 1: that's something I've been so frustrated about. In this conversation, um,
Speaker 1: I was doing like a news interview about Joe Rogan
Speaker 1: and Spotify, and it was a little bit of an
Speaker 1: adversarial like the interviewer definitely was more team Rogan than
Speaker 1: I was, and he kept asking like, isn't this censorship,
Speaker 1: Like isn't this cancel culture? And I kind of couldn't
Speaker 1: get my head around how we got to a place
Speaker 1: where asking for someone that has a massive platform that
Speaker 1: has listened to by millions of people, that has paid
Speaker 1: hundreds a hundred million dollars to make to make something,
Speaker 1: asking for really basic fact checking or basic you know,
Speaker 1: editorial standards is equated to censorship, Like I don't know
Speaker 1: if you read Rock sand Gay's amazing piece in The
Speaker 1: New York Times today about why she's pulling her podcast
Speaker 1: from Spotify, she said, there's a difference between censorship and curation.
Speaker 1: When we are not free to express ourselves, we can
Speaker 1: be thrown in jail or even lose our lives speaking
Speaker 1: for speaking freely. That is censorship. When we say as
Speaker 1: a society that bigotry and misinformation are unacceptable, that people
Speaker 1: who spouse these ideas don't deserve access to significant platforms,
Speaker 1: that's curation. We are expressing our caste and moral discernment
Speaker 1: and saying what we find acceptable and what we do not.
Speaker 1: And I feel like we've kind of lost the thread
Speaker 1: in a way that really benefits who spread misinformation. That
Speaker 1: the second that you're like, wait, well we should doesn't
Speaker 1: we should expect better than lies and bigotry and extremism.
Speaker 1: Immediately there's going to be acquire people who are like
Speaker 1: that censorship, that's canceled culture. That's bad. Yeah. I am
Speaker 1: so glad that you read that quote, because if you didn't,
Speaker 1: I would have. It was such a good piece, and
Speaker 1: I really highly recommend that everybody co read it. Um.
Speaker 1: It's it's really interesting that this has it. It's really interesting,
Speaker 1: but not at all surprising that this has been turned
Speaker 1: into some effort to cancel Joe Rogan when that was
Speaker 1: never really what anyone has asked for. UM. First of all,
Speaker 1: define cancel. I can't, UM, But like we add like
Speaker 1: we were asking for misinformation policies and for those to
Speaker 1: be implemented and transparent on the platform. Um and like yes,
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan's podcast should also follow those policies. I don't
Speaker 1: think anybody is saying like he should not be allowed
Speaker 1: to ever speak again, he should be thrown in prison,
Speaker 1: Like nobody's saying that, Like I don't think anyone even
Speaker 1: has a problem with his stupid getting high and having
Speaker 1: comedy podcasts like if I'm yeah, I'm also pro getting high,
Speaker 1: Like if you want to get high and talk to
Speaker 1: your dudes about wrestling, Joe, go ahead, Like I just
Speaker 1: don't need you high. Speculating about the vaccines being gene therapy,
Speaker 1: like just just I'm not saying, don't have a career
Speaker 1: doing this. It seems like for some reason some people
Speaker 1: find you very entertaining, so go ahead. It's it's just
Speaker 1: the the lies and the hatred that I feel like
Speaker 1: we could avoid. I think Roxane as Piece put it
Speaker 1: really well that people people who are trafficking lies and hatred.
Speaker 1: I don't love it, but okay, I think those those
Speaker 1: people are always going to be there. They shouldn't be
Speaker 1: the loudest voices in the room. They shouldn't be the
Speaker 1: most well paid voices in the room. They shouldn't be
Speaker 1: the most amplified voices in the room. And when they are,
Speaker 1: I feel like that's when we really have a problem
Speaker 1: because it just takes up so much oxygen from the room,
Speaker 1: Like we don't really have the space to have the substitutive,
Speaker 1: thoughtful conversations that we could be having when the person
Speaker 1: with the loudest megaphone is just screaming nonsense. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: and like you're never gonna be able to make every
Speaker 1: shitty opinion go away. Um, but that those shitty opinions
Speaker 1: don't necessarily like deserve giant platforms and to have access
Speaker 1: to like every year in the country, especially like for
Speaker 1: people who are vulnerable to those sorts of like sorts
Speaker 1: of biggest for you in misinformation if you are somebody
Speaker 1: who's vulnerable to that, and then you listen to Joe
Speaker 1: Rogan because maybe you really look up to him, like
Speaker 1: and then you're fed lies and racism and transphobia, Like
Speaker 1: he's that that's predatory more after a quick break, let's
Speaker 1: get right back into it. We can't deny that he
Speaker 1: people like him he's very popular. He has a huge audience,
Speaker 1: and I think part of the reason why that is
Speaker 1: it's sort of the same old story when it comes
Speaker 1: to misinformation. I think that bad actors and people who
Speaker 1: traffic and misinformation they find groups of people who feel
Speaker 1: who are or feel overlooked or or underserved. And so
Speaker 1: whether it's a Banish speaking population that doesn't have enough
Speaker 1: Spanish speaking news outlets, and so bad actors know like, oh,
Speaker 1: we will give you lots of news, it will just
Speaker 1: be lies. I think that Joe Rogan maybe really taps
Speaker 1: into a group of younger males who do feel legitimately
Speaker 1: unseen and unlistened to and like no one is speaking
Speaker 1: to them. And so I think that he has been
Speaker 1: able to shine a spotlight on these folks and make
Speaker 1: them feel seen and heard and validated in ways maybe
Speaker 1: other media sources, like legitimately maybe are not And so
Speaker 1: I wonder, like, like, what do you think about that,
Speaker 1: Like why do you think he has such a big listenership,
Speaker 1: Why do you think he's so popular, and what does
Speaker 1: it say about our media climate. I definitely agree that
Speaker 1: he must be serving some like he's serving and meeting
Speaker 1: some emotional and psychological need for this largely male audience
Speaker 1: who listened to him. Um. I think that from when
Speaker 1: I've listened to podcast, there does seem to be this
Speaker 1: kind of this focus on masculinity, either implicity, implicitly or explicitly.
Speaker 1: Masculinity is often uh highlighted. There's a lot of gender anxiety.
Speaker 1: I think that when SIS men are confronted with the
Speaker 1: reality that gender isn't as binary as they were told
Speaker 1: it was, that there can be a lot of backlash
Speaker 1: and that they will just kind of try and root
Speaker 1: even deeper into the gender binary and for quote traditional masculinity.
Speaker 1: So I see that a lot in his podcast, and
Speaker 1: I do think that he's meeting that need right Like
Speaker 1: he's just he's just like your funny older brother who's
Speaker 1: like getting high and having chats with other funny guys. Um,
Speaker 1: So he's got to be meeting their needs in that way.
Speaker 1: We had an interview with Foma Zoma, who used to
Speaker 1: reprep Interest and a instrumental person in terms of getting
Speaker 1: Pinterest to ban medical misinformation. Something that you told me
Speaker 1: that really stuck with me is that nine times out
Speaker 1: of ten people who were pushing medical misinformation on Pinterest
Speaker 1: we're selling something, whether it was a supplement or something
Speaker 1: some sort of like alternative something, and they were like
Speaker 1: making money. And so I know that Joe Rogan owns
Speaker 1: a supplement company, and his supplement company advertises on the podcast.
Speaker 1: When you go to the Joe Rogan Reddit, people are
Speaker 1: asking a lot about it. I feel like it is
Speaker 1: obviously in his best interest to have a generation of
Speaker 1: young men feel intense anxiety about what it means to
Speaker 1: be a man masculinity, and then also sell supplements that
Speaker 1: purport to make you more virile, make you more masculine,
Speaker 1: make you more of a man, whatever that means. I
Speaker 1: think it's a very clear, really it's a very clear
Speaker 1: relationship to me why someone would be interested in having
Speaker 1: their listenership feel anxious about the sort of gender issues
Speaker 1: you were just speaking to. And it always bumps me
Speaker 1: out because I always just wonder what if that same
Speaker 1: generation of young men were had access to a platform
Speaker 1: that was as popular, as accessible as I guess, engaging
Speaker 1: as they find Joe Rogan, but instead of leaning into
Speaker 1: lies and anxieties around gender, they were being given thoughtful, substitutive, interesting,
Speaker 1: you know, opinions and takes about gender. That did that?
Speaker 1: Did we're not also trafficking and lies and extremism? What
Speaker 1: if that was what they were being said with, would
Speaker 1: they feel the need to buy to buy supplements? What
Speaker 1: they feel the like? Would they feel as anxious? Would that?
Speaker 1: Would that nourish them more? Right? Like I I guess
Speaker 1: when I think about this information, I think about the
Speaker 1: massive sort of missed opportunity to really nourish people with
Speaker 1: good content and good media, because I truly believe that
Speaker 1: everybody deserves good media, everybody deserves the truth, everybody deserves accuracy.
Speaker 1: And it makes me sad that so many people they
Speaker 1: choose something else. Yeah, not only are they and they
Speaker 1: don't choose it like they not only are they choosing it,
Speaker 1: but it's being really promoted to them and fed to them.
Speaker 1: As you know, this is the most popular, so it
Speaker 1: must be good. And I think so much disinformation. I mean,
Speaker 1: as you said, like they're they're selling something, And a
Speaker 1: big tactic of encouraging people to buy something is to
Speaker 1: make them feel as though they are they need it, right,
Speaker 1: like they are wanting they are lacking something, And one
Speaker 1: way to do that is make them feel anxious, Right,
Speaker 1: they're lacking masculinity. Uh, they don't have enough vitamin whatever
Speaker 1: they're they're selling on that particular episode. Um. And they
Speaker 1: we see it with like Fox News right, like they
Speaker 1: prey on vulnerable populations, highlight these deep anxieties that they have,
Speaker 1: and then feed them disinformation just to like increase those anxieties.
Speaker 1: It doesn't help for our polarization problem at all either,
Speaker 1: Like it's an absolute mess, but people profit off of it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's something that really gets to me that
Speaker 1: it absolutely adds to polarization. And we have so many
Speaker 1: big issues facing us as people as a society, and
Speaker 1: if we're all being fed extremism and lies and pull
Speaker 1: and like more and more polarized and people are profiting
Speaker 1: off of that, we're never going to be able to
Speaker 1: come together with like a subsidutive conversation about these issues.
Speaker 1: We're always going to remain polarized. And I, you know,
Speaker 1: I believe that we are better when we are coming
Speaker 1: to the table with accurate information to have to base
Speaker 1: our conversations on. And it makes like there are people
Speaker 1: out there that are profiting on us not doing that
Speaker 1: absolutely well, because the whole idea is to uphold the
Speaker 1: status quo and they're profiting off of people being unhappy
Speaker 1: in the status quo or you know, not understanding why
Speaker 1: they don't have the wealth that they were promised they
Speaker 1: one day would, or the power or happiness that they
Speaker 1: were promised that they one day would. Um. And none
Speaker 1: of this media empowers anybody in their lives, Like fundamentally,
Speaker 1: it's there to increase anxiety and to keep them powerless
Speaker 1: in the face of tremendous inequality, Like this is not
Speaker 1: helping to unite the lower class. What Yeah, I love
Speaker 1: how you put that. It is not it's media that
Speaker 1: is not empowering. And yeah, I feel like everybody deserves
Speaker 1: to see themselves reflected in media. Everybody deserves to feel
Speaker 1: empowered by media. And I guess I just that's like
Speaker 1: a fundamental belief. And I hate, like it even pains
Speaker 1: me to be having this conversation abou Joe Rogan, because
Speaker 1: I know there are men that make better content that
Speaker 1: will never get a tenth of the attention that somebody
Speaker 1: like Joe Rogan would get, would never get a tenth
Speaker 1: of the funding like somebody like Joe Rogan would get,
Speaker 1: And yeah, they just continue to take up the resources
Speaker 1: and the oxygen in the room. I literally hate, Like,
Speaker 1: I am really happy that this conversation is being had
Speaker 1: and that we are finally kind of like holding Spotify accountable,
Speaker 1: but at the same time, it's drowning out other conversations.
Speaker 1: I mean, even on Spotify they were talking about how
Speaker 1: internally employees are unhappy because they weren't able to actually
Speaker 1: promote Black History Month podcasts that they had planned. So
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, even in his scandals and criticism,
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan is drowning out other voices, and that is
Speaker 1: also very frustrating. It's so frustrating. How do you how
Speaker 1: do you see this? Like where do you think we
Speaker 1: go from here? I'm constantly trying to make the point
Speaker 1: that this is not about anyone creator or just about Spotify.
Speaker 1: These issues are really systemic and institutional and they go
Speaker 1: so deep, like like, like, where do you see this
Speaker 1: going from here? We're at this moment we're having this
Speaker 1: like national conversation about lies for profit and misinformation. Um,
Speaker 1: where do you see it going? Or where do you
Speaker 1: hope it goes? Yeah, those are two different questions. I
Speaker 1: really really hope that this can somehow be a lesson
Speaker 1: to platforms that they should not be sponsoring people who
Speaker 1: spread lies and hatred, Like fundamentally, that seems like a
Speaker 1: pretty simple takeaway message is like just don't financially reward them,
Speaker 1: don't facilitate their own growth by literally giving them millions
Speaker 1: and millions of dollars to be controversial and cause you know,
Speaker 1: uproar from lives like that's not helpful. And I really
Speaker 1: hope that you know, this dissuades companies from directly sponsoring
Speaker 1: it at a bare minimum, and then going forward, I'd
Speaker 1: like to see platforms also, you know, because platforms also
Speaker 1: a profit off of this, like YouTube seale profits off
Speaker 1: of Joe Rogan's videos, um, and I'd like to see
Speaker 1: platforms also doing more too, you know, limit their reach
Speaker 1: and limit their ability to grow an entire platform and
Speaker 1: make millions of dollars by using this like old and
Speaker 1: timeless formula. Yeah, I'm with you. I think that will
Speaker 1: never change until we make trafficking in lies unprofitable, trafficking
Speaker 1: in extremism unprofitable, like and I'm not even someone with
Speaker 1: I don't you said earlier that there's always gonna be
Speaker 1: people be people who have shitty opinions. I agree, but
Speaker 1: we don't have to give the microphones and a million
Speaker 1: dollar check to have those opinions. Now, absolutely not. I
Speaker 1: think that that's really that's much more assistination than what
Speaker 1: I said. Yeah, trafficking in lives should not be profitable.
Speaker 1: Like I don't know why this is somehow a radical take. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like how bad? Like we're pretty down bad. When it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: that like trafficking and lie shouldn't be unprofitable, you cancel
Speaker 1: culture sensor sensor censoring. Yeah, it's it's bad. I am
Speaker 1: just a radical lib because I don't think you should
Speaker 1: get to make money for being racist. Okay, I have
Speaker 1: one more question for you. I know that you are
Speaker 1: a prolific TikToker. Have you seen this trend where women
Speaker 1: use the TikTok face filter to add a beard onto
Speaker 1: their face and then they pretend to be male podcasts? Yes,
Speaker 1: I love it. You are a man of high value.
Speaker 1: It's so funny. I love it. I feel like it
Speaker 1: cuts across race, like we I mean, I think that honestly,
Speaker 1: part of the conversation is I think that a lot
Speaker 1: of a lot of us are just like sick of men,
Speaker 1: like sick of men's voices. On podcasts, like you know,
Speaker 1: it's I think the tide is turning. Yeah, I was
Speaker 1: really relieved to see that because I'm just happy to
Speaker 1: see some criticism of the way that men hold space
Speaker 1: in podcasts. Uh even like, even if it's in the
Speaker 1: form of statire, I think that's still super valid criticism
Speaker 1: because it's just so obnoxious. Girl that that that would
Speaker 1: be a whole well off into a part two, because
Speaker 1: that would be a whole other time. I could, I could,
Speaker 1: I could talk for hours. I can talk for hours.
Speaker 1: I will just say I agree, stop letting men a podcast,
Speaker 1: stop having letting men have podcast challenge. Just we're asking
Speaker 1: for one year of no male podcast. That's it. I'm
Speaker 1: here for it. I'm here for it. Abby. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much as always for helping to shed light on
Speaker 1: these issues. Where can folks keep up with your amazing work?
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, thank you so much for having me and
Speaker 1: they can as always sign me on TikTok at topology
Speaker 1: or on Twitter at Abbey a s R or Instagram
Speaker 1: at Abbey s R. I really need to get all
Speaker 1: of the same user name, but Ward, just it's on
Speaker 1: my tode this I promise. Got a story about an
Speaker 1: interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi.
Speaker 1: You can be just at Hello at tangodi dot com.
Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts today's episode at tangdi dot com.
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by
Speaker 1: me Brigita. It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss
Speaker 1: creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer, Terry Harrison as
Speaker 1: our producer, and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help
Speaker 1: us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.