1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Todd 3 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: As a podcaster who makes a podcast about misinformation, conspiracy theories, 5 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: extremism and how they intact marginalized people, I feel like 6 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: it's time to weigh in on Joe Rogan. So, in 7 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: case you don't know, Joe Rogan's podcast, The Joe Rogan 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: Experience has a nasty habit of platforming misinformation and bigotry. 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: Rogan and his guests have amplified lives about transpokes, women, 10 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: climate change. The list goes on, but right now his 11 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: misleading and incorrect statements about COVID are what's got him 12 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: in the spotlight. Rogan brought on serial misinformer Robert Malone, 13 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: who was already suspended from Twitter for spreading inaccurate information 14 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: about COVID, to promote the quote Defeat the Mandate rally 15 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. Last month. Rogan discouraged young people 16 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: getting vaccinated, which is especially troubling given the average age 17 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: of his listenership as twenty four years old, and, according 18 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: to data from Washington State, unvaccinated twelves to thirty four 19 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: year old are five times more likely to be hospitalized 20 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: with COVID than those who are fully vaccinated. Now, hundreds 21 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: of doctors and public health professionals have published an open 22 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: letter to Spotify, who exclusively publishes Joe Rogan's podcast, calling 23 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: the streaming company out for the way the podcast they 24 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: produce has spread COVID misinformation, and asking Spotify to establish 25 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: a clear and public policy to moderate misinformation on its platform. 26 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: India are Roxanne Gage, Joni Mitchell, and others have joined 27 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: Neil Young in taking their content off Spotify. In response, 28 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: Spotify released a pretty weak clarification of their misinformation moderation policy, 29 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: which doesn't really do much to address the kind of 30 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: misinformation that Rogan spreads on his podcast. In a statement, 31 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: Spotify CEO said, it is important to me that we 32 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: don't take on the position of being a content sensor, 33 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: also making sure that there are rules in place and 34 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: consequent is for those who violate them. Now, in that statement, 35 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: Spotify makes it sound like Rogan it's just another podcaster 36 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: on their platform, but he's not. Spotify exclusively produces rogan 37 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: show and pays him of reported a hundred million dollars 38 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: a year to do so. So what happens when someone 39 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: has paid a hundred million dollars to spread conspiracy theories, misinformation, bigotry, 40 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: and lies. My name is Abby Richards and I'm a 41 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:31,119 Speaker 1: misinformation researchers slash tick talker. Abby Richards is a disinformation researcher, 42 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: science communicator, and a friend of the show, and she 43 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:38,679 Speaker 1: says that Spotify's misinformation policy leaves a lot to be desired. So, Abby, 44 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you were able to join me today. Um, 45 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: I have gone kind of a while without talking about 46 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: Joe Rogan, and I think it's time to talk about 47 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: Joe Rogan. It's time. It's time. Well, first of all, 48 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: just as someone who is a misinformation researcher, what are 49 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: your thoughts on his show, what he does, like, what 50 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: are your initial thoughts? You know, I don't love it. 51 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: I'm not like, I'm not a j R. E bro Uh. 52 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: I have just witnessed like way too much misinformation and 53 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: general kind of bigotry and hatred on that platform to 54 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: then go ahead and be like, oh, I just love 55 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: how he interviews people so personally. Yeah, I'm not I'm 56 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: not a huge fan are you no, It's so funny. 57 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: A few months ago, before this UM Spotify issue was 58 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: really in the news, I was at a hotel bar 59 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,839 Speaker 1: with my producer Mike, and we were I don't remember 60 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: where we were coming back from, but we were getting 61 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: a drink and there was this very obnoxious guy at 62 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: the bar, like drunk, loud, obnoxious, and he was trying 63 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: to really engage us in conversation and we were sort 64 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: of not having it. And I think for some reason, 65 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: we were talking about Burning Man, Mike and I and 66 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: this guy was like, oh, hey, I have a buddy 67 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: who goes to Burning Man with with Joe Rogan every year. 68 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: And we looked at each other and Mike just went, so, 69 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: why would you tell us this had no idea that 70 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: we also have a podcast basically, which I feel like 71 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: it is a little bit of like an anti Joe Rogan, 72 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: like a podcast where we talk about the dangers of 73 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: things like misinformation, conspiracy theories, extremism, Like he could not 74 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: have picked a worse a worst way to try to 75 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: impress us. Oh yeah, I mean your podcast is literally 76 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: there are no girls on the Internet, and Joe Rogan 77 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: is literally we have no girls on the show yes 78 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: exactly exactly. So, you know, what did you think about 79 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: seeing all of these high profile folks from Neil Young, India, 80 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 1: ari Um now Rock Sandgate removing their content from Spotify 81 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 1: in reaction to their you know, really unwillingness to do 82 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: anything about the misinformation that he spread so often. Yeah, 83 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 1: I mean I think it's I think it's great. I 84 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: think it's been surprisingly powerful. I wasn't necessarily expecting it 85 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 1: to have as big of like a ripple in the 86 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: in the water as it did. What were your thoughts 87 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,679 Speaker 1: on there? I'm not even gonna say that they renewed 88 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: like it just seemed like they were saying, like, oh, 89 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 1: we do have a covidness information policy, but it wasn't 90 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: for me. I didn't really feel like it was the 91 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: kind of policy that you would expect a platform of 92 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: that size to be putting out, you know, in now 93 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 1: the what second year of a pandemic. Yeah, you would 94 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: expect it to be a little bit more coherent and 95 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: thought through. And and the fact that it took all 96 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: of this pressure to get the tiniest bit of transparency 97 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: into the existing policy that they had is uh. It 98 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: says quite a bit about how reluctant. These platforms are 99 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: to be transparent about their policies. Uh. And then so 100 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: really what they did is they published their existing policies, 101 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: which I'm going to also say, like, weren't they were 102 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: quite lenient, um to the point where it seems as 103 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: though you're able to say that like the back scenes 104 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: caused death, but just as long as you don't say 105 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: that they were designed to do so. And you know, 106 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: they don't really cover wearing masks, and uh, they don't 107 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: cover a large large range of medical misinformation that Joe 108 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: Rogan has spread on his show. Great to see the transparency, 109 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: but I would like to see more coherent and thought 110 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: out policies. And then in addition to that, they just 111 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: like said they were going to put content warnings on misinformation, 112 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: which isn't really shown to be effective. Like I don't 113 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: consider that, uh a solid strategy to colm that misinformation, 114 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: especially not when you're literally funding the misinformation yourself. Again, 115 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: it seems to illustrate to me that Spotify is kind 116 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: of hoping that folks won't ask too many questions about 117 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: their the nature of the relationship they have with Joe Rogan, 118 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: because I feel like it's one thing to put content. 119 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: It's one thing for Twitter to put a content warning 120 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: on a user's tweet, right to say like, oh, well 121 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: this so you know this tweet contains an accurate information. 122 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: It's another thing for Spotify to invite Joe Rogan to 123 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: exclusively make content with them, pay him handsomely for that content, 124 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: be the only place where you can find that content, 125 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: and then kind of pretend like, oh, we can just 126 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: put a content warning on it. That's the that's the 127 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: as far as we can go in terms of dealing 128 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: with it. Like that seems like the bare minimum, to 129 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: the point where it's almost meaningless. It's almost nothing, And 130 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: you know, I do think that they're kind of hoping 131 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: that people won't ask too many questions so that they 132 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: can continue to treat Joe Rogan like any other individual 133 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: content creator that they have on their platform, as opposed 134 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: to what they actually are, which is like his publisher. 135 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, did you see the leaked speech UM 136 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: published a few hours ago where the CEO went into 137 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: a whole spiel about whether or not they are a 138 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: publisher or a platform, And it's like, I mean, even 139 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: as if you were just a platform, you still should 140 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: have some responsibility for what is on your platform, but 141 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:23,239 Speaker 1: you also are specifically funding, like sponsoring this particular content 142 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: on your platform, So you might not have editorial control, 143 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: but you still have some liability there. I think that 144 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: the statement they released was very much like an attempt 145 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: to make the problem go away, just really hoping that 146 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: this in action looked enough like action that everybody would 147 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: wave their hands and be like, oh, that's fine. I 148 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: guess I have seen a lot of toothless tech double 149 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: speak in my day that really means nothing. That was 150 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: really that was like the Mona Lisa of toothless tech 151 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: meaningless double speak. Pr right, Like, let's say a bunch 152 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 1: of things. Let's let's sort of say like we're listening, 153 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: we hear you definitely make a nod to free speech, 154 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: say like make a nod de fact that you're not 155 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: gonna cave to other people's voices. It really hit all 156 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: the marks, and I do I agree with you. I 157 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: think that they're kind of hoping that this problem will 158 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: sort of go away on its own, or that, like 159 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: Joe Rogan put out that video statement, they put out 160 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: a statement. I think that they're hoping that that's going 161 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: to be enough. Um, you know, the Rock has chimed 162 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: in and said, like perfectly put, like, let's time to 163 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: do on your show soon, Joe Rogan. Um. And I 164 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 1: think it's just I think for me, it's really depressing 165 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: because I believe that Spotify is re establishing a precedent, 166 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: and that precedent is that if you are like, there 167 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: is a market for lies, Like if you tell lies 168 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: and spread misinformation and extremism, there is a market for that. 169 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: And so I think the question we need to ask 170 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: ourselves it's like, are we comfortable with our media our 171 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:03,319 Speaker 1: media landscape really handsome, rewarding and amplifying lies for profit. 172 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: And I think it's it's done so much to make 173 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: our our media is so much more toxic. Absolutely, And 174 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: you think about how Joe Rogan really promotes controversial figures, 175 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: and of course he claims he doesn't intend to do that, 176 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 1: but like controversy brings in eyes and ears, and like 177 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: it's quite clear that Rogan has a history of platforming 178 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: people who promote misinformation, promote bigotry, climate change denial, a 179 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: lot of transphobia, like so much transphobia. Uh, it's and 180 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: it's not just like allowed, it's being paid for like 181 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: for exclusivity, like Spotify was like, we want this and 182 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: we want you to be special so that you attract 183 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: more users to our platform. Like they he serves a 184 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: role there to bring more users to them and make 185 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: money for them, and they are fundamentally profiting off of 186 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: that kind of controversy. And I'm very frustrated. It is frustrating, 187 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: And you know, you you brought brought up a good point. Obviously, 188 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: the conversation that's really been in the news right now 189 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: is COVID asum COVID misinformation. But I guess my question is, 190 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: I have listened to a lot of Joe Rogan show. 191 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: I know that the transphobia is is so alarming, Like 192 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: the amount of lies about trans people that that him 193 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: and his guest trafficking is pretty appolloged. Uh, the climate denialism, 194 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 1: you know, he he did apologize for this, but when 195 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: he said that leftists were the ones setting wildfires out 196 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: in the west, right right, like things like this, I 197 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: guess my question is, why do you think that it's 198 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: the COVID misinformation specifically that really sticks when we talk 199 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 1: about this issue. But the lies that he tells about 200 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: trans people, the lies that he tells about climate don't 201 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,719 Speaker 1: seem to stick quite as much because, in my perspective, 202 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: those those things are also medical misinformation and public health misinformation. Yeah, 203 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's a lot of systemic inequality 204 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: behind it. I think it's I'm happy to see that 205 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: we are having this public conversation about his medical misinformation 206 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: on the platform. UM, But it is fundamentally really limited 207 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: to COVID, And it does seem like people are more 208 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: motivated by the pandemic than necessarily racial racial issues or 209 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: trans issues, UM. And I think that speaks to the 210 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: what the public fundamentally cares about. And I hate that 211 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: we are up against so much when it comes to 212 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: inequality that we really have to when when it comes 213 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: to an issue that pertains to marginalize people, we really 214 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: have to shout for people to hear us. You really 215 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: have to scream for people to hear us. And I 216 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: think that COVID. You know, I think it's easier for 217 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 1: some folks to to to see a demonstrable untruth about COVID, 218 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: like oh, young people shouldn't get vaccinated and say, oh, 219 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: that's a problem. But not but see the way that 220 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: Joe Rogan will tell a demonstrable untruth about trans people, 221 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: like he has said that trans people do I experience 222 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: real discrimination, they bring it on themselves. That's demonstrably untrue. 223 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: I think that there's something that makes it easier for 224 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: folks to respond when it's about COVID, and it's just 225 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: easier for it to go unchecked, unacknowledged, or for maybe 226 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: people to say like, oh, that's just his opinion, or 227 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: you know, I think that it's it's It shows how 228 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: much further we have to go in terms of helping 229 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: people understand that misinformation is often identity based, that's often 230 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: racialized and gendered in this way, and it's it's really 231 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: really harmful, like real world harm, the same way that 232 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: COVID health misinformation is yea, and I mean, and we 233 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: think of how a lot of this criticism started was 234 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,439 Speaker 1: with like doctors and scientists and science educators who already 235 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: had existing platforms and are already you know, exist within 236 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: this realm of privilege and having their voices elevated, which 237 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: is great. I'm happy to have doctors and scientists voices elevated, 238 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: but I do think it speaks to just how their 239 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: voices are treated as you know, more worthy of attention 240 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: than necessarily uh, large groups of marginalized people who have 241 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: been speaking out against Joe Rogan for ages. Now, oh 242 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: that's such a good point. Let's a quick break out 243 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: our back feminists, black women, queer folks, trans folks. They 244 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: have been saying for the longest time, and also me 245 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: personally as a podcaster, I've been saying like this, Joe 246 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: Rogan's like his stick is harmful, and I feel like 247 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: people didn't listen and it's Taylor's oldest time, like folks 248 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: don't listen until it's kind of everyone's problem. That is 249 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: something that we talk about extensively on this show. Um. 250 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: But I also think there's this idea that I think 251 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: that Joe Rogan really perpetuates that he's just asking questions 252 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: or you know, he says like, oh, I'm not a doctor, 253 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: don't take my advice, or you know, my guest says this, 254 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: and I don't know enough to push back, and as 255 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: someone who makes a podcast, I know that that's not true. Right, 256 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: Like I'm not an expert on a lot of things, 257 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: but I decide who comes onto my show. I decide, 258 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: you know, who to platform, and it's just it's just 259 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: this kind of feigning of ignorance that I feel is 260 00:15:54,480 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: so powerful but so frustrating. Yeah. I go back and 261 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: forth on whether it's famed or whether he just really 262 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: is like that much of just an idiot who has 263 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: just fallen upwards and upwards and upwards into having podcasts 264 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: where for some reason people listen to him talk for 265 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: three hours And it's like, I can't really tell um 266 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: because it's such a perfect excuse to be like, well, 267 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: I didn't know, you know, how was I going to 268 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: know that when I had this guest on that I 269 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: booked and supposedly should have researched what kinds of things 270 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: they were going to say before platforming them, and you know, 271 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: maybe listen to the edit of my podcast before I 272 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: posted it. Uh, all of those very basic things that 273 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: I do for my TikTok's I would expect him to 274 00:16:54,680 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: do for his world's largest podcast, But apparently it hasn't 275 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: occurred to him that he has any any responsibility. Yes, 276 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: you just put that so wonderfully. I think that's one 277 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: of the reasons. I mean, I don't want to sound 278 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: like I'm just crapping on another podcaster, but it's it's something. 279 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: It's very frustrating to watch. And I know that so 280 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: many people who make content, whether it's TikTok's like you 281 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: or podcasts like me, they put so much effort and 282 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: craft and care into it, and so hearing like, well, 283 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: I don't even listen to them. I don't even prepare. 284 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm gonna say before until I 285 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: say it's like, wow, we really are having different experiences 286 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: when it comes to creating or content. Something fundamentally different 287 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: is happening here. A part of the reason why I 288 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: almost by his act of just like really being that 289 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 1: ignorant is I think that like he is somebody who 290 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: just would never have ever been affected by this sort 291 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: of misinformation and hate it that he allows on his platform, 292 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: and therefore he doesn't have any understanding of why he 293 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: needs to have responsibility like I could. I could maybe 294 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: understand if he really smokes as much weak as he 295 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 1: does seem to like, how he could end up in 296 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: that position of just like I don't know, I just 297 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: like listen, I just listen to other people talk and 298 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: post it. But like, you have a responsibility, and if 299 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: you don't, if you refuse to take that responsibility seriously, 300 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: then like why do you deserve to have the platform 301 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: that you do? That's such a good question, and and 302 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: platforms they they do come like even if you have 303 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: a small platform, it comes with responsibility. And I think 304 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: that's something I've been so frustrated about. In this conversation, um, 305 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: I was doing like a news interview about Joe Rogan 306 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: and Spotify, and it was a little bit of an 307 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: adversarial like the interviewer definitely was more team Rogan than 308 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 1: I was, and he kept asking like, isn't this censorship, 309 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: Like isn't this cancel culture? And I kind of couldn't 310 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: get my head around how we got to a place 311 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: where asking for someone that has a massive platform that 312 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: has listened to by millions of people, that has paid 313 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: hundreds a hundred million dollars to make to make something, 314 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 1: asking for really basic fact checking or basic you know, 315 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: editorial standards is equated to censorship, Like I don't know 316 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: if you read Rock sand Gay's amazing piece in The 317 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: New York Times today about why she's pulling her podcast 318 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: from Spotify, she said, there's a difference between censorship and curation. 319 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,239 Speaker 1: When we are not free to express ourselves, we can 320 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: be thrown in jail or even lose our lives speaking 321 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: for speaking freely. That is censorship. When we say as 322 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: a society that bigotry and misinformation are unacceptable, that people 323 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: who spouse these ideas don't deserve access to significant platforms, 324 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: that's curation. We are expressing our caste and moral discernment 325 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: and saying what we find acceptable and what we do not. 326 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: And I feel like we've kind of lost the thread 327 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: in a way that really benefits who spread misinformation. That 328 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: the second that you're like, wait, well we should doesn't 329 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: we should expect better than lies and bigotry and extremism. 330 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: Immediately there's going to be acquire people who are like 331 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: that censorship, that's canceled culture. That's bad. Yeah. I am 332 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: so glad that you read that quote, because if you didn't, 333 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,719 Speaker 1: I would have. It was such a good piece, and 334 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: I really highly recommend that everybody co read it. Um. 335 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: It's it's really interesting that this has it. It's really interesting, 336 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 1: but not at all surprising that this has been turned 337 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: into some effort to cancel Joe Rogan when that was 338 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 1: never really what anyone has asked for. UM. First of all, 339 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: define cancel. I can't, UM, But like we add like 340 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: we were asking for misinformation policies and for those to 341 00:20:55,080 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: be implemented and transparent on the platform. Um and like yes, 342 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: Joe Rogan's podcast should also follow those policies. I don't 343 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: think anybody is saying like he should not be allowed 344 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: to ever speak again, he should be thrown in prison, 345 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: Like nobody's saying that, Like I don't think anyone even 346 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: has a problem with his stupid getting high and having 347 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: comedy podcasts like if I'm yeah, I'm also pro getting high, 348 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: Like if you want to get high and talk to 349 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: your dudes about wrestling, Joe, go ahead, Like I just 350 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: don't need you high. Speculating about the vaccines being gene therapy, 351 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: like just just I'm not saying, don't have a career 352 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: doing this. It seems like for some reason some people 353 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,719 Speaker 1: find you very entertaining, so go ahead. It's it's just 354 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: the the lies and the hatred that I feel like 355 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: we could avoid. I think Roxane as Piece put it 356 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: really well that people people who are trafficking lies and hatred. 357 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: I don't love it, but okay, I think those those 358 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: people are always going to be there. They shouldn't be 359 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: the loudest voices in the room. They shouldn't be the 360 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: most well paid voices in the room. They shouldn't be 361 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 1: the most amplified voices in the room. And when they are, 362 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 1: I feel like that's when we really have a problem 363 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: because it just takes up so much oxygen from the room, 364 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: Like we don't really have the space to have the substitutive, 365 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 1: thoughtful conversations that we could be having when the person 366 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: with the loudest megaphone is just screaming nonsense. Yeah, and 367 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 1: and like you're never gonna be able to make every 368 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: shitty opinion go away. Um, but that those shitty opinions 369 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: don't necessarily like deserve giant platforms and to have access 370 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: to like every year in the country, especially like for 371 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: people who are vulnerable to those sorts of like sorts 372 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: of biggest for you in misinformation if you are somebody 373 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: who's vulnerable to that, and then you listen to Joe 374 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 1: Rogan because maybe you really look up to him, like 375 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: and then you're fed lies and racism and transphobia, Like 376 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: he's that that's predatory more after a quick break, let's 377 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 1: get right back into it. We can't deny that he 378 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: people like him he's very popular. He has a huge audience, 379 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: and I think part of the reason why that is 380 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: it's sort of the same old story when it comes 381 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: to misinformation. I think that bad actors and people who 382 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: traffic and misinformation they find groups of people who feel 383 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: who are or feel overlooked or or underserved. And so 384 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: whether it's a Banish speaking population that doesn't have enough 385 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: Spanish speaking news outlets, and so bad actors know like, oh, 386 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: we will give you lots of news, it will just 387 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: be lies. I think that Joe Rogan maybe really taps 388 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:16,719 Speaker 1: into a group of younger males who do feel legitimately 389 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 1: unseen and unlistened to and like no one is speaking 390 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,479 Speaker 1: to them. And so I think that he has been 391 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,719 Speaker 1: able to shine a spotlight on these folks and make 392 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: them feel seen and heard and validated in ways maybe 393 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: other media sources, like legitimately maybe are not And so 394 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 1: I wonder, like, like, what do you think about that, 395 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: Like why do you think he has such a big listenership, 396 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,679 Speaker 1: Why do you think he's so popular, and what does 397 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: it say about our media climate. I definitely agree that 398 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: he must be serving some like he's serving and meeting 399 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: some emotional and psychological need for this largely male audience 400 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: who listened to him. Um. I think that from when 401 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: I've listened to podcast, there does seem to be this 402 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: kind of this focus on masculinity, either implicity, implicitly or explicitly. 403 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 1: Masculinity is often uh highlighted. There's a lot of gender anxiety. 404 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: I think that when SIS men are confronted with the 405 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 1: reality that gender isn't as binary as they were told 406 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 1: it was, that there can be a lot of backlash 407 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: and that they will just kind of try and root 408 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: even deeper into the gender binary and for quote traditional masculinity. 409 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: So I see that a lot in his podcast, and 410 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: I do think that he's meeting that need right Like 411 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: he's just he's just like your funny older brother who's 412 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: like getting high and having chats with other funny guys. Um, 413 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: So he's got to be meeting their needs in that way. 414 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: We had an interview with Foma Zoma, who used to 415 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: reprep Interest and a instrumental person in terms of getting 416 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: Pinterest to ban medical misinformation. Something that you told me 417 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: that really stuck with me is that nine times out 418 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 1: of ten people who were pushing medical misinformation on Pinterest 419 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: we're selling something, whether it was a supplement or something 420 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: some sort of like alternative something, and they were like 421 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: making money. And so I know that Joe Rogan owns 422 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: a supplement company, and his supplement company advertises on the podcast. 423 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: When you go to the Joe Rogan Reddit, people are 424 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: asking a lot about it. I feel like it is 425 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: obviously in his best interest to have a generation of 426 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 1: young men feel intense anxiety about what it means to 427 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: be a man masculinity, and then also sell supplements that 428 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: purport to make you more virile, make you more masculine, 429 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: make you more of a man, whatever that means. I 430 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: think it's a very clear, really it's a very clear 431 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: relationship to me why someone would be interested in having 432 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: their listenership feel anxious about the sort of gender issues 433 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: you were just speaking to. And it always bumps me 434 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: out because I always just wonder what if that same 435 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: generation of young men were had access to a platform 436 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 1: that was as popular, as accessible as I guess, engaging 437 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 1: as they find Joe Rogan, but instead of leaning into 438 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: lies and anxieties around gender, they were being given thoughtful, substitutive, interesting, 439 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 1: you know, opinions and takes about gender. That did that? 440 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 1: Did we're not also trafficking and lies and extremism? What 441 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: if that was what they were being said with, would 442 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: they feel the need to buy to buy supplements? What 443 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 1: they feel the like? Would they feel as anxious? Would that? 444 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: Would that nourish them more? Right? Like I I guess 445 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: when I think about this information, I think about the 446 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: massive sort of missed opportunity to really nourish people with 447 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 1: good content and good media, because I truly believe that 448 00:27:55,560 --> 00:28:00,160 Speaker 1: everybody deserves good media, everybody deserves the truth, everybody deserves accuracy. 449 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: And it makes me sad that so many people they 450 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 1: choose something else. Yeah, not only are they and they 451 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: don't choose it like they not only are they choosing it, 452 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: but it's being really promoted to them and fed to them. 453 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: As you know, this is the most popular, so it 454 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: must be good. And I think so much disinformation. I mean, 455 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: as you said, like they're they're selling something, And a 456 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: big tactic of encouraging people to buy something is to 457 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: make them feel as though they are they need it, right, 458 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: like they are wanting they are lacking something, And one 459 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: way to do that is make them feel anxious, Right, 460 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: they're lacking masculinity. Uh, they don't have enough vitamin whatever 461 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: they're they're selling on that particular episode. Um. And they 462 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: we see it with like Fox News right, like they 463 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: prey on vulnerable populations, highlight these deep anxieties that they have, 464 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: and then feed them disinformation just to like increase those anxieties. 465 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: It doesn't help for our polarization problem at all either, 466 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: Like it's an absolute mess, but people profit off of it. Yeah, 467 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:20,959 Speaker 1: I think that's something that really gets to me that 468 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: it absolutely adds to polarization. And we have so many 469 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: big issues facing us as people as a society, and 470 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: if we're all being fed extremism and lies and pull 471 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: and like more and more polarized and people are profiting 472 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: off of that, we're never going to be able to 473 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: come together with like a subsidutive conversation about these issues. 474 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: We're always going to remain polarized. And I, you know, 475 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: I believe that we are better when we are coming 476 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: to the table with accurate information to have to base 477 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: our conversations on. And it makes like there are people 478 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: out there that are profiting on us not doing that 479 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: absolutely well, because the whole idea is to uphold the 480 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: status quo and they're profiting off of people being unhappy 481 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: in the status quo or you know, not understanding why 482 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: they don't have the wealth that they were promised they 483 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: one day would, or the power or happiness that they 484 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: were promised that they one day would. Um. And none 485 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: of this media empowers anybody in their lives, Like fundamentally, 486 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: it's there to increase anxiety and to keep them powerless 487 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: in the face of tremendous inequality, Like this is not 488 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: helping to unite the lower class. What Yeah, I love 489 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: how you put that. It is not it's media that 490 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: is not empowering. And yeah, I feel like everybody deserves 491 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: to see themselves reflected in media. Everybody deserves to feel 492 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: empowered by media. And I guess I just that's like 493 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: a fundamental belief. And I hate, like it even pains 494 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: me to be having this conversation abou Joe Rogan, because 495 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: I know there are men that make better content that 496 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: will never get a tenth of the attention that somebody 497 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: like Joe Rogan would get, would never get a tenth 498 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: of the funding like somebody like Joe Rogan would get, 499 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: And yeah, they just continue to take up the resources 500 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: and the oxygen in the room. I literally hate, Like, 501 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: I am really happy that this conversation is being had 502 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: and that we are finally kind of like holding Spotify accountable, 503 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: but at the same time, it's drowning out other conversations. 504 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: I mean, even on Spotify they were talking about how 505 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: internally employees are unhappy because they weren't able to actually 506 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: promote Black History Month podcasts that they had planned. So 507 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, even in his scandals and criticism, 508 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: Joe Rogan is drowning out other voices, and that is 509 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: also very frustrating. It's so frustrating. How do you how 510 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: do you see this? Like where do you think we 511 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: go from here? I'm constantly trying to make the point 512 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: that this is not about anyone creator or just about Spotify. 513 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: These issues are really systemic and institutional and they go 514 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: so deep, like like, like, where do you see this 515 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: going from here? We're at this moment we're having this 516 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: like national conversation about lies for profit and misinformation. Um, 517 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: where do you see it going? Or where do you 518 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: hope it goes? Yeah, those are two different questions. I 519 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: really really hope that this can somehow be a lesson 520 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: to platforms that they should not be sponsoring people who 521 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: spread lies and hatred, Like fundamentally, that seems like a 522 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: pretty simple takeaway message is like just don't financially reward them, 523 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: don't facilitate their own growth by literally giving them millions 524 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: and millions of dollars to be controversial and cause you know, 525 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: uproar from lives like that's not helpful. And I really 526 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: hope that you know, this dissuades companies from directly sponsoring 527 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: it at a bare minimum, and then going forward, I'd 528 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 1: like to see platforms also, you know, because platforms also 529 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: a profit off of this, like YouTube seale profits off 530 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: of Joe Rogan's videos, um, and I'd like to see 531 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: platforms also doing more too, you know, limit their reach 532 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: and limit their ability to grow an entire platform and 533 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: make millions of dollars by using this like old and 534 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: timeless formula. Yeah, I'm with you. I think that will 535 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: never change until we make trafficking in lies unprofitable, trafficking 536 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: in extremism unprofitable, like and I'm not even someone with 537 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: I don't you said earlier that there's always gonna be 538 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: people be people who have shitty opinions. I agree, but 539 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 1: we don't have to give the microphones and a million 540 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: dollar check to have those opinions. Now, absolutely not. I 541 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: think that that's really that's much more assistination than what 542 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 1: I said. Yeah, trafficking in lives should not be profitable. 543 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 1: Like I don't know why this is somehow a radical take. Yeah, 544 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,399 Speaker 1: like how bad? Like we're pretty down bad. When it's like, oh, 545 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: that like trafficking and lie shouldn't be unprofitable, you cancel 546 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: culture sensor sensor censoring. Yeah, it's it's bad. I am 547 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 1: just a radical lib because I don't think you should 548 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: get to make money for being racist. Okay, I have 549 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: one more question for you. I know that you are 550 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 1: a prolific TikToker. Have you seen this trend where women 551 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 1: use the TikTok face filter to add a beard onto 552 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: their face and then they pretend to be male podcasts? Yes, 553 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: I love it. You are a man of high value. 554 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 1: It's so funny. I love it. I feel like it 555 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: cuts across race, like we I mean, I think that honestly, 556 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: part of the conversation is I think that a lot 557 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: of a lot of us are just like sick of men, 558 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: like sick of men's voices. On podcasts, like you know, 559 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: it's I think the tide is turning. Yeah, I was 560 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: really relieved to see that because I'm just happy to 561 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:42,280 Speaker 1: see some criticism of the way that men hold space 562 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: in podcasts. Uh even like, even if it's in the 563 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: form of statire, I think that's still super valid criticism 564 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 1: because it's just so obnoxious. Girl that that that would 565 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: be a whole well off into a part two, because 566 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: that would be a whole other time. I could, I could, 567 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 1: I could talk for hours. I can talk for hours. 568 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: I will just say I agree, stop letting men a podcast, 569 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: stop having letting men have podcast challenge. Just we're asking 570 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: for one year of no male podcast. That's it. I'm 571 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: here for it. I'm here for it. Abby. Thank you 572 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,360 Speaker 1: so much as always for helping to shed light on 573 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: these issues. Where can folks keep up with your amazing work? 574 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, thank you so much for having me and 575 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,919 Speaker 1: they can as always sign me on TikTok at topology 576 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 1: or on Twitter at Abbey a s R or Instagram 577 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: at Abbey s R. I really need to get all 578 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: of the same user name, but Ward, just it's on 579 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: my tode this I promise. Got a story about an 580 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi. 581 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 1: You can be just at Hello at tangodi dot com. 582 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts today's episode at tangdi dot com. 583 00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:59,359 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by 584 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 1: me Brigita. It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss 585 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer, Terry Harrison as 586 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: our producer, and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. 587 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help 588 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For 589 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,439 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, 590 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.