1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Hey guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here, 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:08,639 Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election. 4 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade 5 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent. 6 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible. 7 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:18,319 Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means 8 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. 9 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 3: But enough with that, let's get to the show. 10 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: Hey guys, So we had some major updates that could 11 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: not wait for Monday, so wanted to go ahead and 12 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: bring the news to you. The headline is this Israel 13 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: striking Iran. This in retaliation for the Iranian strikes on Israel. 14 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: Those strikes, of course, in retaliation for what was the 15 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: beginning of this whole escalatory chain, the Israeli strikes on 16 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: the Iranian consulate building in Damascus. 17 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 4: So let me go ahead and pull up what we 18 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 4: know at this point. 19 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: And there are still some question marks about what exactly 20 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: has unfolded. So let me show you how the New 21 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: York Times is reporting this. They say Israel strikes Iran, 22 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: but scope of attack appears limited. I'll read you a 23 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: little bit from their report they say, here are the 24 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: latest developments. The Israeli struck Iran early on Friday, according 25 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: to two Israeli and three Iranian officials, and what appeared 26 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: to be Israel's first military response to Iran's attack last weekend, 27 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: but one whose scope, at least initially appeared to be limited. 28 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 4: And that is the good news here. 29 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: You gotta love how the New York Times leaves out 30 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: how this all began with the outrageous Israeli strike on 31 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: the Iranian consulate building in Dabascus, a violation of international 32 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: law and the Vienna Convention. Moving on, they continue, The 33 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: Iranian officials said that a strike had hit a military 34 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: air base near the city of Isfahan in central Iran. 35 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: Initial reaction in both Israel and Iran was muted, and 36 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: Iranian leaders did not publicly blame Israel for any strike, 37 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: which analysts said was a sign that the rivals were 38 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: seeking to de escalate tensions. For nearly a week, world 39 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: leaders have urged is and Iran to avoid sparking a 40 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: broader war in the region. Let me go ahead and 41 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 1: show you some of what they're talking about in terms 42 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: of the Iranians downplaying this strike or attempted strike. In fact, 43 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,119 Speaker 1: the Iranians are even claiming that this was just drones, 44 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: that the Iranian air defenses hold that they shot everything down, 45 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: that there actually wasn't any sort of an impact in 46 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: Iran proper. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. 47 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: It could be that they are just saying that because 48 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: they don't want this wider war, and frankly, they're acting 49 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: like the most responsible party in this whole conflict. Let 50 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: me show you a little bit of what Iranian state 51 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: media is reporting, how they are reporting this, just to 52 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: give you a sense of the way that they're trying 53 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: to downplay what happened here, thankfully, is this here we go, 54 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: that's the one Okay, So this is one analyst saying, 55 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 1: Iran State broadcaster in Isfahan, this AA is saying, cities 56 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: in complete calm and security. People are going on with 57 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: their normal lives. One to two hours ago, sounds were 58 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: heard in the sky. We understand several miniature UAVs were 59 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: overhead which were shot down. So very clearly here you've 60 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: got Iranian state broadcaster in the city that was allegedly 61 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: struck saying nothing really big happened, Everything's fine, everything's calm. Yeah, 62 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: we had a little few UAVs overhead, they were shot down, 63 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: nothing actually hit, and trying to project calm and hopefully 64 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: de escalate this situation. You know, it's impossible to underscore 65 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: just how fraught and perilous this whole thing has been. 66 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: And of course the context here is the US under 67 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: Joe Biden has claimed since post October seventh that they 68 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: wanted to keep Israel's assault on Gaza from spreading into 69 00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: a wider, rich regional war. They have failed on all counts. 70 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: You know, not only do we have now these direct 71 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: strikes traded between Israel and Iran, with Israel beginning this 72 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: provocation with the strikes on the Iranian embassy, which you know, 73 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: you can imagine how the US would respond if our 74 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 1: embassy and a number of our top military commanders were assassinated, 75 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: you can imagine how we would respond. 76 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,239 Speaker 4: So then Iran responds. 77 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: With what appears to have been calculated to be a 78 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: large show of force, but intentionally calculated to avoid significant casualties. 79 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: So just as this sort of presentation of force, and 80 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: we can say that because they gave the US and 81 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: our allies seventy two hours notice, so that we would 82 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: be in position to shoot down a majority of what 83 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: they were firing, which we did, and by the way, 84 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: I do mean in a majority, because the US apparently, 85 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: according to the reports, was involved in shooting down a 86 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: majority of what was shot at Israel. 87 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 4: So it was meant to be. 88 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: A large show of force, but calculated to not actually 89 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: create significant damage and not to cause any significant casualties, 90 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: which it did not. So the reports are, and this 91 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: is all, you know, very difficult to say what actually unfolded. 92 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: Reports are that the US tried to talk Israel out 93 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: of doing any sort of response to that, and basically saying, listen, 94 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 1: take it as a win that the Iranian offensive here, 95 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: that they this attack was all. You know, your defense 96 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: is held, no significant damage done, declare victory, and let's 97 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: move forward. Bb neat Yahoo, who has for decades wanted 98 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: this big war with Iran, of course, couldn't just you know, 99 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: leave well enough alone. He started this provocation to begin with. 100 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: There were also reports, and I can actually put this 101 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 1: up on the screen because this is you know, you 102 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: can make of this what you will as well, there. 103 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 4: Were reports that the US. 104 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: Actually agreed to Israel's plan for a ground invasion of 105 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: Rafa where a million Palestinians are currently sheltering in return 106 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: for not carrying out a large Iran strike. The US 107 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: is denying this report. Is it true, is it not? 108 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: We don't really know. But the fact that we're in 109 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: a position where we're having to like bargain and beg 110 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: the Israelis who are wholly dependent on us, who rely 111 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: on us for diplomatic protection, military aid, etc. That we're 112 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: having to bargain and beg and basically, you know, sacrifice 113 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: the lives of Palestinians to try to keep from getting 114 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:52,239 Speaker 1: dragged into this broader regional war directly in conflict with Iran. 115 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: Is such a testament to just how failed the Biden 116 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: policy has been with regard to Israel this entire time. 117 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: You know, the whole idea from Biden was I'll do 118 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: the bb Night Yahoo bear hug, and then since I'm 119 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: showing all this public support for him, It'll give me 120 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: more leverage behind the scenes to try to coerce this 121 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: conflict in the direction that I want. And one of 122 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: the primary goals again from the beginning, according to the 123 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: administration and you know leaks to reporters, was to avoid 124 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: exactly the situation we find ourselves in now. But since 125 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: at every turn, when pressed, the US says there are 126 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: no real red lines, We'll do anything for Israel. We 127 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: stand with Israel no matter what. Of course, BB feels 128 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: enabled to do whatever the hell he wants to do, 129 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: including creating a wildly dangerous situation for our own service members, 130 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: for the entire region, and dare I say it, for 131 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: the entire world. That's what our policy of nothing but 132 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: enabling whatever the Israelis want want to do, that's what 133 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: that policy has ultimately brought us to. So, you know, 134 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: it's a strange situation. The best possible news that I 135 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: could wake up to this morning is that the Iranians 136 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: are trying to downplay and say, hey, listen, nothing really 137 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: happened here, hopefully giving them enough like saving enough face 138 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: for them to avoid feeling like they now have to 139 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: respond again and tacking once again. 140 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 4: Up the ladder of escalation. 141 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: But it's small comfort that we've come to this place 142 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: where we are so on the brink that the best 143 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: news we can hope for is that they're pretending that, 144 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: you know, this additional strike wasn't a big deal, That 145 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: we have direct exchanges between Iran and Israel. That's where 146 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: the Joe Biden policy has ultimately led us. And again, 147 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: you know, we'll see what happens with regard to Rafa. 148 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: Bibe has been making it very clear that there is 149 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: no avoiding their ground invasion. He set the date, he said, 150 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: he's got the plan in place. Apparently Joe Biden, who 151 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: has expressed at least some hesitation or some reluctance about 152 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: this ground invasion into Rafa at a time when not 153 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: only have you had already mass civilian death, mass destruction 154 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: of civilian infrastructure in the Gaza strip, you also have 155 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: this all out humanitarian crisis, people starving to death, a 156 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: famine officially set in at least in northern Gaza. You've 157 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: got a million plus displaced Palestinians in Rafa. And if 158 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: the report is true, Biden basically capitulating and saying, all right, 159 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: because you've brought us to the brink of this hot 160 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: war with Iran, we're gonna let you invade Rafa. Go 161 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: ahead to avoid this, you know, to have a more 162 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: limited strike on Iran. So there's a lot of questions 163 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: here this morning. There's still very open questions about where 164 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: things go for peer, you know, The other couple of 165 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: things worth mentioning are Number one, this retaliatory strike on 166 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: Iran comes on the same day that our un representative 167 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 1: vetoed in the Security Council. 168 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 4: Un Security Council. 169 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: Vetoed the recognition of a Palestinian state, so doing Israel's 170 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: bidding on the very day that they do the exact 171 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: opposite of what we had wanted them to do. Not 172 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: to mention that vetoing palestinane state seems to be at 173 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: odds with our purported policy of supporting a two state solution. 174 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 4: So there's that. 175 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: It also comes at a moment when our representatives are 176 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: busy pushing through a record breaking amount of aid both 177 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: to Ukraine but also to Israel to continue shipping them 178 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: the weapons that they are using not only to massacre 179 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: Palestinian civilians, women, children, and innocent men, but also that 180 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: they are using to put our own service members and 181 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: national security interest at risk. So extraordinary developments. Thank god. 182 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: The Iranians seem to be wanting to downplay this, wanting 183 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: to end this escalatory chain. You know, if this is 184 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: where it ends, we all honestly owe them a debt 185 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: of gratitude, because you can only imagine if it was 186 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: our military commanders assassinated at our embassy. I doubt we 187 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 1: would be so restrained, doubt we would be so measured. 188 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: So that's where we are today. That's the most I 189 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,839 Speaker 1: can tell you about where we are obviously still incredibly 190 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: fraud and incredibly risky situation. If there are additional developments 191 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: I'll make sure to bring them to you this weekend. 192 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: Otherwise we'll give you all the very latest on Monday. 193 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: Hope you guys enjoy the weekend and I'll see you soon. 194 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: Excited to be joined this morning by one of our 195 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,719 Speaker 1: great partners over at Lemer News, David Stroodis of that 196 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: great outlet, who has a bunch of new exciting projects 197 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: to talk to us about. And David, I was saying 198 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: to you, I was so excited to see that at 199 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,359 Speaker 1: a time when a lot of news organizations are struggling 200 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: and having to lay off staff, that you all are 201 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: actually expanding, which I think is a real testament to 202 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: the need that you serve and the unique reporting that 203 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: you all have done on you know, frankly compared to 204 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: the giant corporate media outlets, a fraction of the budget. 205 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 4: So congratulations on that. 206 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 3: Thank you, Thanks so much. 207 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 5: And what I'm really excited about is we've been able 208 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 5: to hire journalists, journalists to do the digging the investigations. 209 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 3: That we do. I think. 210 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 5: We're losing a lot of journalists right now, and I 211 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 5: know people have some criticism of the media industry generally, 212 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 5: which I share that criticism. 213 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 3: I think one thing I'm. 214 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 5: Most worried about is the loss of people employed to 215 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 5: actually report and surface original information. 216 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 3: So that's what we're investing in. 217 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we've really relied on your work. We relied 218 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: on it with regard just recently to the Baltimore Bridge 219 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: collapse and the masch Nations to try to limit liability 220 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: for this giant shipping company. I know you all are 221 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: relaunching the lever Time podcast and you're taking a look 222 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: at what has been very perplexing to a lot of 223 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: the media class, which is why, in spite of the 224 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: fact that there is low unemployment, in high stock market 225 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: and some other sort of macroeconomic indicators that are positive 226 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: for Joe Biden, his economic numbers continue to be so poor. 227 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,719 Speaker 1: We actually have a little bit of a trailer for 228 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: the relaunch of that podcast. 229 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:36,119 Speaker 3: Let's take a listen. 230 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 6: I think that the more rough and tumble, the more debate, 231 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 6: the more vigorous exchange, the more you are battle testing 232 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 6: your party, the more you are battle testing your ultimate 233 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 6: general election nominee for that battle with the Republicans. And 234 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,239 Speaker 6: I look back to two thousand and eight, you talked. 235 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 2: About Ronald Reagan being a transformative political leader. 236 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 3: I did not mention his name. Well, I'm here until. 237 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 7: Yeah, that primary is vicious. I feel like people don't remember. 238 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 7: It's just how tense things got between the Clinton and 239 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,719 Speaker 7: Obama teams. Like if you read accounts from back then, 240 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 7: you see just how much vitriol there was between both 241 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 7: of them and personally too. 242 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 6: Absolutely, and the same thing with the nineteen ninety two primary. 243 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 6: I mean that was a brutal primary between Bill Clinton 244 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 6: and Mario Cuomo was potentially gonna run and Jerry Brown. 245 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 7: I don't think. 246 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 6: Those primaries weakened those general election nominees. I think they 247 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 6: battle tested those general election nominees, and I think those 248 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 6: general election nominees came out stronger and better and more 249 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 6: suited to win the general election. But I feel like, honestly, 250 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 6: I feel like that view is in the minority of 251 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 6: the Democratic Party. 252 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: So Bold stands there in favor of actual democracy, and 253 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: it ties in with the economic conversation because I think 254 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: anyone who's tried to understand, okay, well, why do Americans 255 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: still have legitimate upset around the state of the economy 256 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: at this point has been met with this sort of 257 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: derision of like, oh, well, what do you just want 258 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: Donald Trump to get reelected again? 259 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 5: Yeah? I mean, I think there's this perfect storm, perfectly 260 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 5: bad storm for the Democrats in this way that they've 261 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 5: suppressed a primary, which means that they've suppressed a debate, 262 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 5: a discussion about, for instance, economic issues, and the White 263 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 5: House has gotten comfortable just saying, hey, listen, these are 264 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 5: your choices, take it or leave it. We don't have 265 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 5: to actually use a primary process to sharpen our message. So, 266 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 5: in other words, Biden hasn't, in not having a primary, 267 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 5: hasn't faced the kinds of questions in a day to 268 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 5: day basis that he will face in the general election, 269 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 5: for instance, about the economy. So there's been a year 270 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 5: or two of the White House just sort of trying. 271 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 3: To flip it off. But those questions about the economy 272 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 3: aren't going away. 273 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 5: Now you said, you're right, the macroeconomic data is decent, 274 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 5: and look, the country would be in worse. 275 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 3: Shape if the macro data was worse. 276 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 5: But that doesn't mean people's day to day lived economic 277 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 5: experience is particularly good. And Biden up until very recently 278 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 5: I don't think hasn't really had a really sharp message 279 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 5: to say to voters, to address those concerns to voters, 280 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 5: and those are real concerns. 281 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, Instead, a lot of the approach has been, at 282 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: least from the sort of like Biden's orders and spokespeople, 283 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: has been to gaslight or to tell you your experience isn't real, 284 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: You're just being tricked by media coverage that's negative of 285 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: the economy. So what are some of the pain points 286 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: that you have been able to identify that are real 287 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: and are contributing at least to the fact that many 288 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: Americans are not happy with the Biden economic record in 289 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: spite of the fact that you know, some of the 290 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 1: things he's done I think are a really positive step 291 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: forward economically. Labor and antitrust really stand out to me. 292 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: We covered with Emily on Counterpoints, covered the new DOJ 293 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: suit of Live Nation Ticketmaster. That direction is really promising 294 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: but doesn't necessarily impact Americans right now today. 295 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 5: Well, look, there's two things going on in the people's 296 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 5: lived experience of the economy. There are things that are 297 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 5: bearing down on them housing costs, the cost of money itself, 298 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 5: interest rates creating higher costs for auto loans. 299 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:43,479 Speaker 3: Transportation and the like. 300 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 5: Grocery prices have up until recently been going up. So 301 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,719 Speaker 5: these are real pain points, basically pain points on the 302 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 5: necessities of life, right like food, housing, shelter, etc. 303 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 3: Etc. 304 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 5: And there is an argument to be made that no 305 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 5: one president and in the course of one term, can 306 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 5: solve all of those problems immediately, problems that were developed 307 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 5: over multiple basically generations of neoliberal economic policies. So you 308 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 5: have these pain points here that are real. I think 309 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 5: the reason any incumbent gets blamed for that is because 310 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 5: they're the incumbent. But I also think that the incumbent 311 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 5: can do things to combat being blamed for that. Let's 312 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 5: go back to let's remember that Franklin Roosevelt ran for 313 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 5: reelection in the middle of the Great Depression. 314 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 3: Re election in the middle of the Great Depression. 315 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 5: Right, he didn't run around saying, hey, listen, all you 316 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 5: people are just you know, you're misled about how bad 317 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 5: the economy is. 318 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 3: You know, the media is gaslighting you, right. 319 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 5: He positioned himself instead as the sharp tip of the 320 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 5: spear against the corporate forces that were creating that pain, 321 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 5: as opposed saying, hey, everything's getting better. 322 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 3: So Biden has not really done that. 323 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 5: He has not really positioned himself as the sharp tip 324 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 5: of that spear. And I think, if we're being honest, 325 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:13,719 Speaker 5: part of it is a white House messaging problem. They 326 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 5: haven't faced a primary that's prompted them to have to 327 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 5: actually really engage day to day. But if we're also 328 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 5: being honest, part of it, I think is the fact 329 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 5: that he's an eighty one year old guy, and it's 330 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 5: hard to communicate a strong, tough economic leadership message as 331 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 5: the sharp tip of the outrage at corporate forces bearing 332 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 5: down on people. It's hard to do when you're as 333 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 5: old as he is. It's not to run him down 334 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 5: for being old. It's not to say it's it's his 335 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 5: fault for being old. But I think almost inherent is 336 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:48,640 Speaker 5: that part of the job of being president is using 337 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 5: the bully pulpit. 338 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 3: And look, when you're eighty one years old, it's probably 339 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,120 Speaker 3: harder to use the bully pulpit. 340 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 5: By the fact, by virtue of the fact that you're 341 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 5: an older person. 342 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: I think there's that which I noted actually when these 343 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 1: latest inflation numbers came out that were hotter than expected, 344 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: and you know, people like you and me who have 345 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: been talking about gra inflation from the beginning and were 346 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: initially dismissed as like fringe until it was kind of undeniable, 347 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: and you've got these CEOs admitting on earning skulls, like yeah, 348 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: that's what we're doing. There was an opportunity there for 349 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: him to come out and not try to downplay that, 350 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 1: you know, groceries cost more than they did last year 351 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: and then that's significant for people, but to really called 352 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: the task the corporate price gouchers who are contributing to 353 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: that state of affairs. But that would mean he was 354 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: a completely different person with frankly a different ideology and 355 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: a different level of vigor that he's able at this 356 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: point to bring to the table. 357 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 5: Look, I totally agree, and I think the sad part 358 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 5: about this, among other things, is that I actually do 359 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 5: think that the Biden administration has a story to tell. 360 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 5: I think when you look at what's going on at 361 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 5: the FTC, when you look at what's going on doj 362 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 5: anti trust, when you look what's going on at the NLRB, 363 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 5: when you look further back to what happened with the 364 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 5: American Rescue Plan. Now granted that expired, but the American 365 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 5: Rescue Plan a huge investment in the working class of 366 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 5: this country. The Biden administration does have a story to tell. 367 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 5: They just haven't told it very well. And you're never 368 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 5: going to tell that story only through your FTC chairperson 369 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 5: or only through your deputy or assistant Attorney general. For 370 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 5: anti trust, the president has to be the one telling 371 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 5: that story. And I don't think the story has been told, 372 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 5: but I think there's still is time here. And what 373 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 5: I'm saying is is that I think when you look 374 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 5: at the State of the Union address that Biden just delivered, 375 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 5: the themes of that State of the Union address, I 376 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 5: do think we're right on. He really was trying to 377 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 5: position the administration as a counter to corporate power. Is 378 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 5: it a too late I don't think it's exactly too 379 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 5: late yet Is it going to be enough? 380 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 3: I don't know. 381 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 5: Can he deliver that message in the noise of the 382 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 5: general election, I'm not so sure. And will they actually 383 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,239 Speaker 5: sharpen the message enough where enough people will believe that 384 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 5: they are really serious about being that challenge to corporate power. 385 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 3: These are all the unanswered questions. 386 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's that's my last question for you, David, 387 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 1: is how much are people even processing politics at this 388 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: point about being about economics because they have the sense of, like, well, 389 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: whether it's a Democrat or Republican, things don't really change 390 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 1: much for me personally, So I guess I should just 391 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: vote on like who signals the right way in the 392 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: culture war, or how I feel about Donald Trump, which 393 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 1: I don't want to dismiss those things as illegitimate by 394 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: the way. I mean, I think the looming threat of 395 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 1: Trump is real, and it's it is legitimate to be 396 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: concerned about that. But how much has economics just sort 397 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: of vanished from landscape of what people even expect politicians 398 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:03,959 Speaker 1: to deliver at this point? 399 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 3: Well, this is the part. 400 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 5: Now You're really getting to my personal pain point, because 401 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 5: it's the thing that I get depressed and demoralized about 402 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 5: that it feels like, at least right now, we're in 403 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 5: an a historical moment in this way that in the past, 404 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 5: are you better off than you were four years ago 405 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 5: used to be kind of the defining a question of 406 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 5: presidential elections, or, as James Carvel had put it, you know, 407 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 5: it's the economy, stupid. I'm not sure we're living in 408 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 5: a society anymore where economics is considered salient and germane 409 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 5: to elections and how we pick presidents, which I think 410 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 5: is actually a problem. 411 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 3: Right to me, that should be the first and foremost 412 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 3: question of. 413 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 5: What does this presidential election mean for the economic future 414 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 5: and destiny of this country and the economic experience of 415 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 5: people in their daily lives. I think that's the first 416 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 5: and foremost thing that we actually do have the most 417 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 5: control over as a country, right, Like the policies directly 418 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 5: affect us here and now, economic policies, and if those 419 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 5: policies aren't part of how we're making a decision in 420 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 5: these elections, we're basically saying we can't change the economy. 421 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 5: That both parties, all of the candidates are just simply 422 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 5: uninterested in making any kind of change that would benefit 423 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 5: the majority of the population. 424 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 3: I don't want to be in that place. 425 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 5: I think that's a really that is in a sense, 426 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 5: that is the democracy crisis. If we simply say economics 427 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 5: is just not part of how we pick people. 428 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 3: I don't want to. 429 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 5: Believe that we're there. It would really be a break 430 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 5: from history if we are there. But yes, it does 431 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 5: feel like we now live in an era of vibe 432 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 5: elections that are almost exclusively about the culture war and 433 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 5: nothing about the class war. 434 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: David, where can people check out lever Time? 435 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 3: You can find it at levernews dot com. Just go 436 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 3: right there. You'll find it right there. All right, great 437 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 3: to see you, my friend. As always, thank you, thank 438 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 3: you so much. 439 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 2: Joining me now is Arta Moeni, doctor Arta Moeni. He 440 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: is the research director at the Institute for Peace and Diplomacy. 441 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining me, Sir, I appreciate it. 442 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 8: Thank you, Sogeric. Glad to be here. 443 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 2: So doctor Moonani, you caught my attention. You had a 444 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 2: long Twitter thread and was backed up by an article 445 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 2: I wanted to put it up here on the screen. 446 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 2: It is the Gaza War and the twilight of international moralism. 447 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 2: So without getting two in the weeds, I think the 448 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 2: takeaway that I had at the very least is that 449 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 2: using moralistic language genocide being one very much in vogue 450 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 2: at the moment, but in general that we deploy in 451 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 2: international politics is in some ways counterproductive and doesn't achieve 452 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 2: the moral outcomes that those who use the term want. 453 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 2: So why don't you give us your argument for why? 454 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 8: Yeah? Sure, I mean so, I think proponents of international 455 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 8: law often sort of have very good intentions. They want 456 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 8: to end conflicts, they want to they want to minimize casualties, 457 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 8: and they have this sort of attachment with this construct, 458 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 8: which for me is a construct, a non natural construct 459 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 8: called international law. But the moralism that they attach to 460 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 8: their framing of the world actually, in many ways, ideology 461 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 8: ideologizes conflicts, politicizes conflicts, demonizes others, and makes a kind 462 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 8: of actual conversation that's required for diplomacy impossible. So I 463 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 8: think by shaking or shedding our moralistic frames, by shedding 464 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 8: our sort of needs for these kinds of ideological framings, 465 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 8: we can actually and prioritizing national interests and real power relations, 466 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,959 Speaker 8: we can develop a certain strategic empathy and either prevent 467 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 8: conflicts from happening prior or to find and find solutions 468 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 8: to them, and resolve them more easily once they are 469 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 8: once they do arise. 470 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 2: So why don't you operationalize that to let's say the 471 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,959 Speaker 2: Israel conflict. Like we said, using the word genocide, apartheid, 472 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 2: all of these things, whether or not they're technically true 473 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 2: or not, but even the definitions the game itself you 474 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 2: view as counterproductive. Let's say, to achieving an end which 475 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 2: I think we all want here, which is a piece 476 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 2: to the conflict, what would your approach be then. 477 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 8: Yeah, So my framework is that if we have adopted actual, 478 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 8: sort of realistic view of the world and not look 479 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 8: to demonize the other side. So I mean, this happens 480 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 8: on both sides. So when we think about Israel, I 481 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 8: mean I think the is very clear that the sort 482 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 8: of opponents of of Israeli policy use a certain framework 483 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 8: of genocide language labeling to demonize the other side. And 484 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 8: I think that is very unhelpful because it actually kind 485 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 8: of the human dehumanizes and discredits the other side, making 486 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 8: them actually doabble down on the policies that I have 487 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 8: a lot of problems with, and maybe many others do 488 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 8: as well. But I think by doing that tactic actually 489 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,360 Speaker 8: is very unhelpful to getting them to change their policies. 490 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 8: And it happens on the other side as well, which 491 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 8: is not just a problem that for example, the left has. 492 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 8: I mean, the pro Israel right, for example, uses similar 493 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 8: kind of human rights discourse or moralizing language by trying 494 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 8: to connect the sort of its own opponents to Hamas 495 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 8: or to or calling them anti Semites or whatnot. I 496 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 8: think these kinds of rhetoric are sort of a framework 497 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 8: that come from ideology and actually thinking about realistic understanding 498 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 8: of how and why states do what they do and 499 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 8: why you know, power relations and how that's important in 500 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 8: this sort of in the world that can really change 501 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 8: the dynamics on the ground. I mean think about for example, 502 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 8: I mean, I would just say this, in America, we 503 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 8: have had a tradition of statesmanship going back to George 504 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 8: Washington that emphasizes what I call and they colleague Washingtonian realism. 505 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 8: We're going back to George Washington, and it prioritizes national 506 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 8: interests and looking at things as they are instead of 507 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 8: focusing on ideology. And we can fast forward to the 508 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 8: Cold War and we have another classic realist like George Kennon, 509 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 8: who also while some hawks in Washington would like to 510 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 8: read him as the as you know, the force behind 511 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 8: sort of military containment, actually understood that ideology cannot be 512 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 8: fought through military force. And actually you need to find 513 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 8: the real sources of conflicts and uh and and the 514 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 8: political appeal of the ideology. So both of these can 515 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 8: be applied to the to the Israel Gazo scenario because 516 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 8: you can see how you know that the very idea 517 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 8: of Israel thinking that it can eliminate Hamas, as we 518 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 8: know from our experience in Afghanistan with the Taliban, it's 519 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 8: impossible to uh physically eliminate a sort of a non 520 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 8: state actor that is steeped in ideology. You have to 521 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 8: find the reasons uh and for for their ideology and 522 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 8: the spread of that ideology. So that's one thing. And 523 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 8: then at the same time you have to understand that yes, 524 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 8: Israel does have significant ontological insecurities and physical insecurities, and 525 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 8: by trying to deal with them and telling them, for example, 526 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 8: that hey, it is not in your in Israel's long 527 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 8: term interest, a long term national interest to engage in 528 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 8: this kind of behavior and this is going to actually 529 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 8: have fundamental consequences for the future of Israel itself. This well, actually, 530 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 8: I think make the conversation on realist ground much better 531 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 8: and much stronger, and towards the CEA spire or towards 532 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 8: whatever resolution we can try to imagine. 533 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I get a lot of criticism when I talk 534 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 2: in this way. People say that it's cold blooded. And 535 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 2: one of the things that I liked it took away 536 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 2: from what you said is that you can actually achieve 537 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 2: more moral outcomes, you know, if you actually try and 538 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 2: engage with this, if you look at things on a 539 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 2: level playing field, and you're not always using moral outrage 540 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 2: or anger or you know. For example, I think the 541 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 2: perfect example here is that the Biden administration is branding 542 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 2: Russia's actions in Ukraine as genocide, but then they deny 543 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 2: that it is a genocide whenever it's Israel and it's Gaza. 544 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 2: And it's like, well, now you have a selective application 545 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 2: of rhetoric to a term that was supposed to mean something, 546 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 2: now it actually means nothing. So arguably you have made 547 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 2: a disservice to any future ability to say anything about what. 548 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 3: Is or is not a genocide. 549 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 2: Whereas if instead that we look at it as like, 550 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 2: this is bad, this is counterproductive to Russian interest, is 551 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 2: really interest and others, then possibly the Russians would listen 552 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 2: to us, or the Israelis would listen to us. And 553 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 2: vice versa, if we were to look at things actually level. 554 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean that that's that's certainly true, I think, 555 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 8: and it actually I think what you're bringing up is 556 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 8: something that I also brought up in the article, which 557 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 8: is the you know, yes, there is there is this 558 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 8: sort of idea of hypocrisy in terms of selecting selected 559 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 8: application of US policy in regards to international law. But 560 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 8: that really shows a different question, which is the fundamental 561 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 8: problem of enforcements in international law. There is no real 562 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 8: global hedgemon now now once we shifted from unipolarity to multipolarity, 563 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 8: and so we don't have an ultimate arbiter and ultimate enforcers. 564 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 8: So for for so long as the United States was, 565 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 8: we were in the unipolar moments of sort of American triumphalism, 566 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 8: and the United States could select and pick and choose 567 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 8: how to interpret international law, how to apply international law 568 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 8: in different conflicts to serve its interest. Now, in the 569 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 8: condition of multiplarity, using this sort of we are now 570 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 8: in a great transition. And within this great transition we 571 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 8: are seeing various different regions of the world. I don't 572 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 8: like the term global soft, but global south is the 573 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 8: common term for it. The various multiple regions of the 574 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 8: world try are basically doing the same thing. The specter 575 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 8: of interpretation is open to everyone, and so that actually 576 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 8: means that what the United States specifically did since nineteen 577 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 8: ninety after evolved the Soviet Union, we sort of shifted 578 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 8: in the nineties to this sort of selective politicization of 579 00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 8: the international law framework, using human rights and using uh, 580 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 8: you know, humanous as a weapon, using responsibility to protect, 581 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 8: you know, all of those things that we did. Now 582 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 8: others are doing as well. So almost for any conflict 583 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 8: that you can think about in the world, you have 584 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 8: the situation where Russia, for example, uses the same the 585 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 8: very same argument that America used for NATO intervention in 586 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 8: Serbia to justify its own intervention and aggressions in Ukraine. 587 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 8: And Ukraine also uses this, you know, the same principles 588 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 8: of the UN Charter in terms of self defense and 589 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 8: territorial integrity to make its own claim the sort of 590 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 8: shrouded in legitimacy. So again, all of these states are 591 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 8: engaged in PLOW. I mean again, the relationship of power 592 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 8: is key, and I think by not looking at the 593 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 8: power relations and the fact that nowadays international law is 594 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 8: used as as an instrument for rhetorical and reputational influence 595 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 8: and prestige to and you. Basically, once you do that, 596 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 8: you get your side your partisans to accept your your 597 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 8: side of things and use and basically have legitimizing arguments 598 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,319 Speaker 8: for your side of things, and your opponents will have 599 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 8: the opposite view and opposite interpretation. This is the problem 600 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 8: of lack of enforcement that's inherent to international law as 601 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 8: it is constructed. Because again, the international law, the world 602 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,399 Speaker 8: first ward, is international. We know, as any good realist would, 603 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 8: that the international system is not actually a sort of 604 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 8: a monolith. It is not doesn't have a sovereign, and 605 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 8: therefore it is anarchic. The condition of anarchy is returning 606 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 8: where there is no unipolar order and no global sovereign 607 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 8: like the United States too, that that can get away 608 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 8: with doing those arbituations still according to its interests, but 609 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 8: it can it cannot get away with it anymore, and 610 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 8: other countries are doing it the same thing. So it 611 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 8: means that effectively, the dawn of multi polarity shows the 612 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 8: tensions inherent to international law because we cannot see it 613 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 8: in an international way. We don't have that sort of 614 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 8: enforcement mechanism. But that takes us to the second problem 615 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 8: of international law as well, because international law is again 616 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 8: the category of law is sovereign, and sovereignty that's at a 617 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 8: domestic category. But also that implies that there are certain conventions, 618 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 8: traditions and shared heritage. Let's say that has given way 619 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 8: to codifying those traditions as law. However, what we have 620 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 8: now this construct sacred cow of international law. It basically 621 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 8: was premised on a particular code that was a European 622 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 8: code that came out of the nineteenth and twentieth century, 623 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,479 Speaker 8: but then it was codified in post nineteen forty five. 624 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 8: So it's a particular parochial viewpoint of the world in 625 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 8: a world that's actually diverse. It doesn't have enforcements, but 626 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 8: it also tends to universalize from a parochial position and 627 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 8: basically try to make its position as the universal position. 628 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 8: And the rest of the world that has different conceptions 629 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,800 Speaker 8: and different forms of life and different philosophies and different 630 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 8: norms and values fundamentally now rejects that, but it increasingly 631 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 8: has the power to say no and interpret it differently. 632 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,879 Speaker 8: So I think we need to get away from this 633 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 8: international law of framework because it's unhelpful for a peaceful 634 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 8: and I would there to say ethical relation between states 635 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 8: that's based on some sort of regularity and rules. As 636 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 8: proponents of the rules based order'd like to say that 637 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 8: actually would happen when you prioritize power and think about 638 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 8: power in that way. This mockery of power politics and 639 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 8: real politics as something that's fundamentally immoral blinds us to 640 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,240 Speaker 8: the fact that seeing the world as it is instead 641 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,439 Speaker 8: of through the lens of ideology. And again, international law 642 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 8: by definition is ideological because it it reflects only one 643 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 8: perspective of the world, and then it universalizes it. And 644 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 8: you know it was contingent as well, so there's nothing 645 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,800 Speaker 8: natural about it. It was always ideological, and it gives 646 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 8: us this framework which can be abused and instrumentalized and 647 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 8: politicized and actually makes the cause of peace much harder 648 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 8: to achieve. 649 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 4: Really well said. 650 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 2: My favorite is when people are like, the Russian invasion 651 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 2: of Ukraine is illegal. I'm like, well, is there a 652 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 2: legal invasion. There's no such thing as illegal invasion, invasions 653 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 2: or invasions. It's like, it doesn't mean anything. And if 654 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 2: it is illegal, now what who's going to enforce it? Oh, 655 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 2: you can't do anything about it, well, then international law 656 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,920 Speaker 2: is fake. So I really appreciate you, sir. I really 657 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 2: recommend people go. I'll put your Twitter account and everything 658 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 2: in the description. Very interesting thinker, one who wants I 659 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 2: think the same outcomes as many of the people who 660 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 2: use this rhetoric, but is advocating for a different course, 661 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 2: one that I endorse wholeheartedly. So thank you very much. 662 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 3: We appreciate you. 663 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 8: Thank you. So I got about to get here.