1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy B. Wilson. So the 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: name John Jacob Astor is one that comes up throughout 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,319 Speaker 1: US history. They're not all the same one. When you 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: hear that name, there were several there a lot um 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: and it's one of those names that I feel like 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: is a shorthand for super rich person. Yeah, and just 9 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: the Aster part two. Yeah. Yeah, But because there have 10 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: been so many, sometimes people may not realize that that 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: they're talking about different ones. This leads to some confusion 12 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: when you're actually talking to someone about who he was. 13 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: The one we most recently mentioned on the podcast, which 14 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: was in our Charles Shapen episode when we talked about 15 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: newspaper coverage of the Titanic was John Jacob Aster, the 16 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: fourth who famously died on the ship. But the families 17 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: fortune and name recognition began well before that with the 18 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: first John Jacob Astar, who came to the U S 19 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: from Germany not long after the colonies gained their independence 20 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: as a nation. And today we're going to talk about 21 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: that start of what is now called an American dynasty 22 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: and how Astor became the first millionaire in the United States. 23 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: Quick heads up, A lot of this involves the fur trade. 24 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 1: So if the discussion of animals being used as fur 25 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: is distasteful to you, maybe you want to skip this one. 26 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: But I will say we're not talking about any of 27 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: the details of how that's accomplished. There's a brief mention 28 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: of numbers of animals late in the episode, but uh, 29 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: a lot of fur trade and trapping talk just in general. 30 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: So John Jacob Astar was born July seventeenth, seventeen sixty 31 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: three in Waldorf, Germany. His father, Johann Jacob Austar, was 32 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: a butcher. The family was working class. His mother was 33 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: Maria Magdalena Vofelder. Maria and Johan had gotten married in 34 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: seventeen fifty. Some accounts indicated that John Jacob was the 35 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: youngest of three sons, but the Astors also had more children. 36 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: One son died in infancy. It appears there were several 37 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: sisters as well, although they really have not been given 38 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: much attention at all in the historical record. No I 39 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: saw like a reference to a Christina getting married, and 40 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: that was kind of all that I ran up against 41 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: in my research. Uh, John Jacob was christened Johann Jacob 42 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: like his father, but we'll use his anglicized name here 43 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: to retain clarity, and we'll talk about when he made 44 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: that switch officially. And when John Jacob was three, his 45 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: mother Maria died when Johann Jacob remarried to a woman 46 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: named Christina Barbara. The second marriage produced six more children, 47 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,679 Speaker 1: and that was a situation that led to a lot 48 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: of strife. Obviously, that meant that there were a lot 49 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: of people being supported on a pretty meager income. But 50 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: also most accounts indicate that there was a pretty clear 51 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: vision between Johann Yakum's children from his first marriage and 52 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,119 Speaker 1: his children from the second marriage, and that those two 53 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: family groups never really were able to integrate in a 54 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: harmonious way. All of the kids from the first marriage 55 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: are said to have moved out as soon as they 56 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: were able to, and John's case, for a brief period 57 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: of time, his father tried to teach him to be 58 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: a butcher, and John hated it. His father had a 59 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 1: reputation for being a very good butcher, but also kind 60 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: of a hard man to get along with, and John 61 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: didn't especially like the work itself. His older brother George 62 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: had moved to London and was doing well as a 63 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: flute maker, and his brother Henry had become a butcher 64 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: in New York. Both of John's older brothers wrote to 65 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: him and encouraged him to join them in their respective 66 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: locations and trades, and the unhappy John Jacob broke from 67 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: his father and went to London to make musical instruments 68 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: with his brother George Urge. It was in London that 69 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: he started to go by the anglicized version of his name. Also, 70 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: he would later just go by the initials J. J. Yeah, 71 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:14,839 Speaker 1: there's a kind of sad circumstance here where even though 72 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: he hated the butcher trade, he was apparently very good 73 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: at it um and it was one of those things 74 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: like you would be fine, you would have a job 75 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: for life, and it's like, yeah, but I hate it. 76 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: It just seems like a line of work that would 77 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: be particularly unpleasant if you really hated it, right and grueling. 78 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: And also I think he probably associated it with his dad, 79 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: who he had problems with. Um. John lived in London 80 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: for four years making wind instruments with his brother, and 81 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: during that time his brother Henry wrote really frequently about 82 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 1: the many opportunities that were available to a young man 83 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 1: in the newly formed US so in se three at 84 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 1: the age of twenty. That's one of those things that 85 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: gets a little weekly in the historical record his exact age, 86 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: but most places report twenty John Jacob Bordered a ship 87 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 1: headed to North America. The move from London to the 88 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: U S has also led to Astor sometimes being identified 89 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: as English American instead of noting his birth in Germany. 90 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: Just as an f y I. If you see him 91 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: as an UH English American or UM British American, he 92 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: was German. UH. This trip that he made normally took 93 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: about two months, but this particular one took four because 94 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: the ship had to drop their route and moved south 95 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: to avoid pack ice that was forming in the Atlantic. 96 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: It was springtime, but it was they had some late freezes. 97 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: The ship actually got frozen in ice in Chesapeake Bay. 98 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 1: Despite all of this maneuvering to try to avoid that problem, 99 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: after the ice got thick enough that people could walk 100 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 1: on it, some passengers walked the rest of the way. 101 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: There's some discrepancy in accounts of whether Astor did this. 102 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 1: Some accounts suggest that he waited for the ice to 103 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: break up so that he could go ashore with all 104 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: of his cargo, included some instruments that he had packed 105 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: to sell in New York. Others indicate that he eventually 106 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: gave up on waiting and made the walk on the 107 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: ice to Baltimore. However he got there. He stayed in Baltimore, 108 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: Maryland for several weeks. He made friends with a shop 109 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 1: owner there who helped him sell several instruments. Once he 110 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: had made a little money, he headed to New York 111 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: to meet his brother Henry and Henry's wife, Dorothea. When 112 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: he arrived in New York City in four it had 113 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: roughly twenty three thousand residents. That blows my mind. We'll 114 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: talk about that a little bit in the The Friday 115 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: episode because I'll talk about how I, in my frame 116 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: of reference, made that number makes sense, and then you 117 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: think I'm ridiculous. But so, John Jacob opted not to 118 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: work in the butcher trade with his brother Henry. Instead, 119 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 1: he ended up working as a street vendor for a 120 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 1: little while for a confect scenery shop. So he sold 121 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: bake sweets from a cart, which sounds a little bit dreamy. 122 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: Although probably not very heavy on the money making. Then 123 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: he moved on to work as an assistant to a 124 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: Quaker fur dealer named Robert Brown, and this was work 125 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: that Astor really took to, even though initially all he 126 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: really did in terms of his job requirements or his 127 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: duties was beat the first to keep moths at bay. 128 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: But his boss really liked him and saw that he 129 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: was very smart and he had a lot of initiative 130 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: in terms of learning the trade, and so he soon 131 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: upped his weekly pay from the original two dollars a 132 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: week that he was giving him, and he also the 133 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: boss also gave him an engraved silver pocket watch, so 134 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: there was very clearly an affinity between these two men. 135 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: Astor was still selling flutes during this time as a 136 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: second income, and as he made money, he lived fairly frugally. 137 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: His fur job included room and board. The money he 138 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: saved up was invested in more flutes to sell, as 139 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: well as in animal skins that he prepared and put 140 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: into storage. Once he had a large stock of them, 141 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: he would travel back to London briefly to sell the 142 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: first through a consignment shop and pick up a fresh 143 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: stock of flutes from his brother He also made deals 144 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: with two piano manufacturers to act as their New York salesperson. 145 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: John was obviously savvy when it came to business, he 146 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: started to do really well for himself. On September nineteen, 147 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: seventeen eighty five, Astor married Sarah Cox, the daughter of 148 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: his landlady. Over the course of the next seventeen years, 149 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: they had eight children. Magdalen was born in seventeen Sarah 150 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: was born in seventeen ninety but died in infancy. John 151 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: Jacob the Second or John Jacob Jr. You'll sometimes see 152 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: him listed, was born in seventeen ninety one. William Backhouse 153 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: was born in seventeen ninety two, Dorothea in seventeen ninety five, 154 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: and then Henry was born in seventeen ninety seven but 155 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: died sevent so just a toddler. Their daughter, Eliza was 156 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: born in eighteen o one, and a son who lived 157 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: only a few days, was born in eighteen o two. 158 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: When John and Sarah married, the two of them continued 159 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: to live at the boarding house, but they had two 160 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 1: rooms of their own. One was their living area and 161 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 1: the other was set up as a show room for 162 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: John's musical instruments. Sarah and John were similarly driven when 163 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: it came to business, and she both assisted in his 164 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: business work and encouraged him to try new ventures. Yeah, 165 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: you'll often see her mentioned as though she was really 166 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: kind of his right hand. Took care of a lot 167 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: of administrative and managerial duties for his business as it grew. 168 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: There are some debates over the nature of their union, 169 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: whether or not um he had married her for her 170 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: dowry and is kind of a really good business arrangement, 171 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: but they stayed together a very long time. He later 172 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 1: told his children that he married her because she was 173 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: the prettiest girl he had ever seen, even though most 174 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: accounts say she was not especially pretty. So it's unclear 175 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: how much their relationship was um romantic versus uh union 176 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: through business interests um. But they made a life together 177 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: for sure. In autumn of five so not long after 178 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: he became a husband, John jacob Astor made his first 179 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: fur trading trip to Albany. This meant that he was 180 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: going directly to trappers to acquire furs, rather than purchasing 181 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: skins from vendors in the city, which is what he 182 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,719 Speaker 1: had done up to that point. According to lore, he 183 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: would make his way into the woods and then traded 184 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 1: and became friendly with just about every trapper he encountered. 185 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: He got to no local Native American tribes and purchased 186 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: from them, remember that according to lore phrasing here. And 187 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: he also did business with European trappers. When he had 188 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: a full load of furs, he would take them to 189 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: Albany and pack them on barges and travel with them 190 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: back to New York. He made a lot of profit, 191 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,319 Speaker 1: but he still had to keep his business kind of 192 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: small because he was a one man operation and he 193 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: really wanted to expand, and so after gathering more funds, 194 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: he was able to expand his efforts beyond Albany to Montreal, 195 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: which he visited for the first time in late summer 196 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: of So so far, this all just sounds like a 197 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: guy from humble means who hustled a lot to build 198 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: an empire. That's not wrong, but it also does not 199 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: tell the whole story. Because John Jacob asked her, had 200 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: a reputation for being ruthless. It said that nobody could 201 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: ever get the upper hand and a deal with him 202 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: when it came to dealing with indigenous people. He used 203 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: a lot of different manipulations, including only making deals with 204 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: Native American trappers after he had first gotten them drunk. 205 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 1: He also fast talked a lot of people to make 206 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: them think they were getting the better of him while 207 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: he was actually landing an agreement that weighed really heavily 208 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: in his own favor. Yeah. I read one account this 209 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: was an ongoing problem that a lot of trappers were 210 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: selling or giving Native American tribes alcohol before they started negotiations, 211 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: and so some posts were actually outlawing that, and if 212 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: they did, he was like, well, I'm not going there anymore. 213 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: Like that was one of his key tools. Um. So 214 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: just no, there's a lot of undocumented behavior that is 215 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: not cool in here. Um. Coming up, we're going to 216 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 1: talk about how J. J. Astor expanded his wealth by 217 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: taking advantage of really just about every opportunity he saw. 218 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: But before we do that, we will pause for a 219 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: quick sponsor break. When the j Treaty was signed, it 220 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: opened up new options for Astor in terms of scale. 221 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: So the j Treaty was an agreement between the US 222 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 1: and Great Britain that was not especially popular in the US, 223 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: but it did put to rest a number of outstanding 224 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: issues that were still lingering from the Revolutionary War, and 225 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: one of the elements of this treaty, and the one 226 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: which was significant for Astor, was a change in export permissions. 227 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: So prior to Britain could send exported goods to the 228 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: US without much limitation, and it did, but the US 229 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: couldn't reciprocate because there were steep tariffs and restrictions on 230 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:28,959 Speaker 1: items shipped into Britain from the US. Additionally, northwestern posts 231 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: in North America that had remained occupied by the British 232 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 1: were finally turned over to the US. So this meant 233 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: that for J. J. Astor, who traded furs in the 234 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: northeastern parts of the US and into Canada, he was 235 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: just going to have a much easier time traveling around 236 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: to purchase skins and ship them back to New York, 237 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: and then once those skins were ready, he could export 238 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: them as a good on their own in bulk instead 239 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: of having to travel to London and work through consignment 240 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: dealers on a small scale. As he expanded his business 241 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: in this way, Master also started to diversify his revenue streams. 242 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,959 Speaker 1: He invested in real estate. By the start of the 243 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: nineteenth century, John Jacob Astor had accumulated two hundred and 244 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars, and he put that money to work. 245 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: By continuously investing, he increased his real estate holdings that 246 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: just about every opportunity. At this point, which was the 247 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: year eighteen hundred, New York City had more than doubled 248 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: in size. From the time he arrived there, it had 249 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: about fifty thousand residents. Astor saw that the population was 250 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: only going to keep growing, and he knew that if 251 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: he bought property, it would increase in value as more 252 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: and more people needed places to live. So he bought 253 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: and bought. If an orchard or a farm was struggling, 254 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: he bought it and often just let it sit. He 255 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: bought property up and down the Hudson River, even property 256 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: that no one saw any value in. Yeah, he sort 257 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: of infamously was known to just by swamp end and 258 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: be like, it's gonna be something one day, somebody's gonna 259 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: need this. Uh. He was not wrong. His next move 260 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: in terms of diversifying his income was to start trading 261 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: in China. So, just as he had done in sending 262 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: first to Europe and bringing flutes back, he started sending 263 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: first to China and bringing silk and tea. Back on 264 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: April six eight, Astor established the American Fur Company in 265 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: New York. It would not only exist in New York, 266 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: had had offices in many places, and he eventually set 267 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: up a kind of a headquarters in m Machina Island, 268 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: which is now part of Michigan because it was closer 269 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: to the fur but as a as a business entity, 270 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: it's home base with New York. Now. Up to this point, 271 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: when he started American for he had a number of 272 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: different kind of small businesses that were sort of specialized 273 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: in who they traded with. But when he founded American Fur, 274 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: he consolidated all of those smaller businesses under one big umbrella. 275 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: This would eventually lead to a monopoly on the fur trade, 276 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: as competitors were either destroyed by outbidding that was enabled 277 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: by Astor's wealthy company, or they just got absorbed. At 278 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: a time when the fur trade was rapidly expanding throughout 279 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: the country, it seemed that Astor always managed to out 280 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: maneuver anyone who was trying to carve out a territory 281 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: of their own. The American Fur Company is often cited 282 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: as the first business monopoly in the United States. The 283 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: formation of the larger company was, of course a strategic 284 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: business move motivated in part by the Lewis and Clark expedition. 285 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: Astor had read all about the famous expedition and in 286 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: eighteen ten decided to start a fur trading network on 287 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: the West coast. The idea was that this new venture 288 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: at the Pacific Fur Company would give J. J. Astor 289 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: a major advantage in dealings with China. The Pacific Fur 290 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: Company could send a ship to the coast of what's 291 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: now Oregon, set up a fort, and then get for 292 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: in the Pacific Northwest, and have it on ships much 293 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: faster than any other fur company could get on its 294 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: way from Montreal to China via New York. At the 295 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: nexus of this web was the town of Astoria, founded 296 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: in eighteen eleven on land that Astor claimed for the 297 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: United States and of course was named after him. But 298 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: early into the efforts to establish this hub, the War 299 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 1: of eighteen twelve started between the US and Britain. During 300 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: this conflict, Astoria was captured by the British. Astor's trading 301 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: network was unable to ever become established. He was always 302 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: ready to capitalize on a tragedy, though, so Astor bought 303 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: a lot of skins very cheap from trappers in the 304 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: Northwest who were eager to get out of the business 305 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: and out of the area as hostilities ramped up. Yeah, 306 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: he took advantage of everything. A story of Oregon still exists, 307 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 1: by the way, it just never became his his fur 308 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: trading nexus that he had hoped. The War of eighteen 309 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: twelve was of course costly for the United States, and 310 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: the U. S. Treasury was seeking ways to come up 311 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: with the money to pay for it. So entered John 312 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: jacob Astor and too rich associates Stephen Gerard and David Parrish. 313 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: In what has been called the first bond syndicate in 314 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: the United States and the start of investment banking in 315 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: the United States. These millionaires bought government bonds worth a 316 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: hundred dollars at the price of eighty eight dollars each 317 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: in massive sums. I have seen various numbers reported, but 318 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 1: it all seems to average out to about ten million 319 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: dollars each that they spent. To be clear, Aster, even 320 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: though he had grown his business a lot, he didn't 321 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 1: have that cash in ready. Money. He borrowed some from banks, 322 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: with some of his real estate holdings as collateral. And 323 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: per the terms of the bonds, which is different than 324 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: what the Treasury had initially offered, but what they negotiated, 325 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: the full one hundred dollar value would be paid to 326 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: the bond holder over the course of thirteen years. This 327 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 1: was essentially alone, with very clear terms on how the 328 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: interest was going to come back. Some of the bonds 329 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: were resold as an immediate money back for these investors, 330 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 1: but Astor held onto a lot of his These bonds 331 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 1: dropped in value initially, though, When Washington City was burned 332 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: by the British in the Chesapeake Campaign, bonds flooded the 333 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 1: market as people thought that if they did not sell 334 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 1: them for something, they would never see any return on 335 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: their eighty eight dollar per bond investment, and asked Or 336 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,239 Speaker 1: bought and bought and bought, and just waited for the 337 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: tide to turn so he could collect the full hundred 338 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: dollars on each of them. As the US Treasury made 339 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: good on its deal. Newspaper editor Horace Greeley once estimated 340 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: that through some cloaked bond buyouts, in addition to his 341 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: on the book's transactions, J. J. Astor may have made 342 00:19:55,680 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: all his money back plus another fifty percent. I mean again, weasel, 343 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: but astute. Uh. And though he made a name for 344 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 1: himself and the beginning of his fortune in fur trade 345 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: and deals like his war financing, the real source of 346 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: Astor's financial success and what really enabled him to start 347 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 1: essentially a dynasty, was his astute real estate investments in 348 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: New York City. We mentioned already that he had bought 349 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 1: a lot of property in New York. He owned an 350 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: estimated three percent of all of New York. Three percent 351 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: may not sound like much, but we're talking about one person, 352 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: uh So it is actually pretty significant. And by the 353 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: late nineteen teens, Astor's various enterprises and holdings had grown 354 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: so much that he made his son, William Backhouse, returned 355 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: from studying abroad to help him run things. William didn't 356 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: especially want to get into the family business. He was 357 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: kind of shy. He was more interested in art and 358 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: literature than he was in his dad's business. But once 359 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: he was in charge of things, he was as ruthless 360 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,479 Speaker 1: as his father, and some historians have even characterized him 361 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: as more ruthless. One of the big legacies of John 362 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: Jacob and William Backhouse Astor was the construction of huge 363 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: tracts of tenements. And this is a situation where in 364 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: a lot of ways they very carefully put together business 365 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: deals that protected them. They never built any tenements. William 366 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: became an expert in the ins and outs of property law. 367 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: They owned the land, then leased it to developers. Then 368 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: those developers would sub let it to basically slum lords 369 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,239 Speaker 1: who would build out the entire twenty five by one 370 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: foot lots with buildings that could house dozens of families. 371 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 1: Keep in mind that surveyed lot size of twenty five 372 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: hundred feet that seven point six by thirty point five 373 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: meters was based on how much space the surveyors of 374 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: New York City initially thought would be adequate for a 375 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: single emily. But because this was all operated by sub letters, 376 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: the Asters who enjoyed a life of just extraordinary luxury 377 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: by this point, we're twice removed from any real responsibility 378 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: and could claim ignorance when problems related to the poor 379 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: quality of life and the tenements was brought up. It. 380 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 1: We'll talk a little bit more about that on the 381 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,439 Speaker 1: behind the scenes on Friday. It becomes its own whole story. 382 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: And I didn't want to sidetrack the entire John Aster 383 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 1: things since William was really in a lot of cases 384 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: spearheading these initiatives. But it's it makes me very angry. Um. 385 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: On April four, four, Astor returned to New York aboard 386 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: the passenger ship Utica, coming from England after having been 387 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: at a wedding. It had been kind of a terrible voyage. 388 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,679 Speaker 1: It was full of delays, but the news that Astor 389 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: received at the dock was worse than anything he had 390 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: endured to see. He learned that his wife, Sarah had 391 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: died a week earlier. Maybe the timing on this is 392 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,719 Speaker 1: something that becomes really hard to pin down. That story 393 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: is one way it's relayed, But the date of Sarah's 394 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 1: death is kind of all over the place, um, when 395 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: you see it in different accounts. Sometimes it's listed as 396 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty two, sometimes eighteen thirty four, and sometimes And 397 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: I think this is a result of a good old 398 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: fashioned typo eighteen forty two, But that type of was 399 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 1: in a place that people took as gospel and repeated 400 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: it a whole lot. One of those early eighteen thirties 401 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: dates is almost certainly correct. There is even a very 402 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: well reviewed Astor biography that I read that list the 403 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: eight thirty four date, but then later mentions Astor being 404 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: a widower in eighteen thirty two, So keep all of 405 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: that in mind before we get into Astor's life after 406 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: Sarah's death. We will take a quick break and hear 407 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,880 Speaker 1: from the sponsors that keeps stuffy missed in history Glass going. 408 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: In June four, John Jacob Aster sold his interest in 409 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 1: the American Fur Company. It was at the time the 410 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: largest commercial organization in the US, and there have been 411 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: some characterizations that Astor lost his interest in business when 412 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: Sarah died, and that a lot of his behavior in 413 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: the years that followed her death was driven by grief, 414 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 1: and he did certainly grieve for her. He had felt 415 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: especially bad that he was not home when she died. 416 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: He had similarly been absent for the deaths of other 417 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: family members, and the accumulated guilt over that was something 418 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: that he wrote about to his friend Wilson Price Hunt. 419 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 1: But there were definitely other factors involved in the decision 420 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: to liquidate his business interests. American Fur Company had been 421 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,360 Speaker 1: capturing and killing animals for their skins for years. At 422 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: this point. It was estimated in one Ledger report that 423 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: the company had sold an average of twenty six thousand 424 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 1: buffalo skins a year and twenty five thousand beaver skins 425 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: a year for fifteen consecutive years. There's numbers are pretty staggering. 426 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: There was no thought in the trade for sustainability. Additionally, 427 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 1: styles and tastes were shifting. He noted on a trip 428 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: to London in the eighteen thirties that men's top hats 429 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: were being made of silk instead of beaver, and silk 430 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: from China was no longer at the same level of 431 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: demand because European textile houses were making gorgeous fabrics of 432 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: their own. Animal pelts were also seen with increasing suspicion 433 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: as a possible disease vector. At a time when Cholero 434 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: was spreading rapidly in short, Astor saw that the revenue 435 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: streams that had brought him so much wealth were soon 436 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: going to slow to a trickle or even dry up. 437 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: That would mean he would lose money instead of making it, 438 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 1: and he just was not interested in that. No, he 439 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 1: was interested in building a hotel. Though. This is interesting because, 440 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 1: as we said, he didn't really build much of an anything, 441 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: but he really wanted to make a hotel. Um he 442 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: decided to take on the project of building a six 443 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: story luxury hotel on Broadway between Barclay and Vessey Streets. 444 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 1: That's the area where the World Trade Center complex would 445 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: eventually be built. Using distract of land mint that he 446 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: had to tear down existing homes, which he bought out. 447 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: It also meant tearing down Astor's home, so he had 448 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: another built at the corner of Broadway and Prince, But 449 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: the resulting Astor House Hotel was a three hundred room 450 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 1: luxury hotel that drew a lot of famous visitors over 451 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: the years, including Abraham Lincoln, Edgar Allen Poe, who stay 452 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: inspired the story The Mystery of Marie Rouge, and Charles Dickens, 453 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 1: who found the hotel itself to be lovely but the 454 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: pigs eating garbage on the street outside to have kind 455 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: of ruined the whole thing. We've talked before on the 456 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: show about how dirty New York could be during this time. 457 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 1: Once he retired, Astor made a deal with Washington Irving 458 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: to write his biography. I've done a show on Washington 459 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 1: Irving before. Irving would not take payment from Aster and 460 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 1: instead negotiated to have the books publishing rights in their entirety. 461 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: His reasoning he would later write, was that quote. He 462 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 1: was too proverbially rich a man for me to permit 463 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: the shadow of a pecuniary favor to rest on our intercourse. 464 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: Irving did, however, ask Astor to pay for his research assistant, 465 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: his nephew, Pierre Monroe Irving, who received three thousand dollars 466 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: for going through all of Aster's papers assembling an outline 467 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: and an organizational structure to the work. Irving incidentally tried 468 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: to get a good sense of how the trapping business 469 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 1: had worked and had been perceived from the Native American perspective, 470 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: although it's unclear what information he may have gotten, as 471 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 1: he asked for that information from Samuel G. Drake, who 472 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: was a white man who was considered to be an 473 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 1: expert on the matter. Yeah, that struck me as interesting 474 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: because it's like, I don't trust your version of the story, 475 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: but the expert I'm gonna ask is also a rich 476 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: white guy who probably doesn't really understand what's what was 477 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 1: going on there. But the resulting book that Irving wrote, 478 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: a Storia or Anecdotes of an Enterprise Beyond the Rocky Mountains, 479 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 1: came out in the fall of eighty six, and this 480 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: book sold a lot of copies, and it got a 481 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 1: lot of praise, and that sounds great, but Washington Irving 482 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: was a little embarrassed by the whole thing. His book, 483 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: despite having taken no money, uh and to try to 484 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 1: stay objective, was really soft on Astor. It made him 485 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: seem like a great guy, and he knew that he 486 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: had kind of rushed it. And there were definitely critics 487 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: who called it out as being Astro propaganda. But the 488 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: book remained very popular, and it was published in several translations, 489 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: and all of this made J. J. Aster very pleased. 490 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: Although he was not actively working after selling American for Company, 491 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: Aster continued to make money in real estate. When a 492 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: massive fire during a particularly cold winter took out most 493 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: of the tenements on Astor's land, he lost nothing because 494 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: of the way those deals had been set up. The 495 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: Lessies were responsible for the buildings, not Aster rebuilding was 496 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: it their expense, and if they opted not to rebuild, 497 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: Aster just rented that to someone else. During economic crashes, 498 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: Aster always sailed through, often buying mortgages for deeply discounted 499 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: rates when others were struggling, and never hesitating to seize 500 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: the property when the original owner defaulted. Yeah he was. 501 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: That was like a thing he did a lot of, like, oh, 502 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: you you need a loan, or you need a little 503 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: help with a mortgage. Yeah, I got you. Oh you 504 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: can't make your payments, it's mine now, Like he was 505 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: not the least bit um hesitant in that. There is 506 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: also a very wild story about how Astor got a 507 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: massive chunk of midtown Manhattan in a real estate deal 508 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: and flipped it for an exorbitant sum. In eighteen o three, 509 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: a whiskey distiller named Mediev Eden had fallen into financial 510 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: trouble took out a mortgage on his family's property, which 511 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: was known as Eden Farm, and that sat on Bloomingdale 512 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: Road that's now known as Broadway, and the farm stretch 513 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: from present day forty to forty six streets, and it 514 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: took up the space from Bloomingdale West to the Hudson River. 515 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: So if you know the the island of Manhattan, you 516 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: get a sense of how big this was. And also 517 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: if you know New York City, you know that Times 518 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: Square sits right in that space. Now, so seeing the 519 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: value of this property. J. J. Astor in eighteen o 520 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: three had paid twenty five thousand dollars to buy out 521 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: one third of the mortgage. Over time, Eden defaulted and 522 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: Astor took control of it. Over the years, there was 523 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: a lot of lengthy legal battle over the property between 524 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: Astor and Eden's airs, because they claimed that that wasn't 525 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: really a fully legal transaction, but ultimately the millionaire settled 526 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: with the family for a mere nine thousand dollars. That 527 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: probably seemed like a lot then, but over time he 528 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: leased some of the lots, and he also sold off 529 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: lots from the property, leaving the farm itself largely intact. 530 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: And even though he hadn't sold all of it, he 531 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: still made five point one million dollars off of it, 532 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: off of what had been a thirty four thousand dollar 533 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: investment if you count both his initial buy out and 534 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: the nine thousand dollars settlement. It wasn't until after Astor's 535 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: death even that the remaining sections of that chunk of 536 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: land were sold by Aster's heirs. By the late eighteen forties, 537 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: Aster had a number of health issues. His health was 538 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: really pretty feeble. He had digestive problems, he had trouble sleeping, 539 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: he had experienced some paralysis. John Jacob Master died in 540 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: New York City on March eighteen forty eight, at the 541 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: age of eighty four. His fortune at the time of 542 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: his death was estimated to be between twenty thirty million dollars. 543 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: That was roughly one fifteen of all the personal wealth 544 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: in the US at the time. This was actually difficult 545 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: to calculate, despite a lot of people wanting to know 546 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: this number, but because so much of his wealth was 547 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: tied up in real estate at a level that nobody 548 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: had really seen before, it took a long time to 549 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: just tabulate this whole thing. And the years from eighteen 550 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: forty to his death, he had made more than one 551 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: point to million dollars and rental income alone that far 552 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: outpaced his spending and acquiring new real estate. Yeah. I 553 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: had read one figure that he had spent like seven 554 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand to eight hundred thousand dollars, and 555 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, but he was just making tons of 556 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: money like he had no It was all black in 557 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: his ledger. There was no no red h If you 558 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: have ever been to the New York Public Library, which 559 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: is lovely, you could say you've benefited from one of 560 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: the bequeathments of John Jacob Astor. In his will when 561 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: he died, he allocated more than four hundred thousand dollars 562 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: of his fortune for the creation of a public library. 563 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: This is one of those things that sounds deeply benevolent, 564 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: but it's really him making good on a promise that 565 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: he had made the city leaders a decade before he died. 566 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: But though he had said, yes, we're building a library, 567 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: he had then dithered on where to put the building, 568 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: what collections he thought should be purchased for it, and 569 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: who should be involved in the project, and it dragged 570 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: on and on. It kind of seemed like while he 571 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: was alive he didn't want to give up that chunk 572 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: of money. But with the money from the will, that 573 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: project was finally carried out, and then in the Astor 574 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: Library was consolidated with the Lennox Library with additional money 575 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: from the Tilden Foundation to form the New York Public Library. 576 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: As a point of note, though, that central building for 577 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: the New York Public Library, which is pretty iconic, was 578 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: not built until nineteen eleven, though so well after he 579 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: had died. Aster's will was unique in that it was 580 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: just incredibly wildly. He left money for various knee needs 581 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: and support of his family. His oldest son, John Jacob Jr. 582 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: Was not going to inherit the bulk of it or 583 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: take on the family business. It's not clear exactly what 584 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: the situation was, but based on some pretty hazy accounts, 585 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: it appears that John Jacob Jr. May have had some 586 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 1: sort of developmental disability or some other illness like something 587 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: going on. Yeah, the descriptions of him call him varying 588 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: things like even even things that are outside of the 589 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 1: completely inappropriate and outdated language. It's like he was a 590 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: very weak boy, Like what does that mean? Yeah, we 591 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: don't know, but there was. It seems like that was 592 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: he was definitely um not talked about very much, So 593 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 1: we don't have great information. So William had always been 594 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:51,760 Speaker 1: John jacob seniors intended protege, but asked. He also truly 595 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: adored William's son. John Jacob asked her the third and 596 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,720 Speaker 1: wanted to leave him a significant part of the fortune. 597 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: But he also didn't trust government laws to basically stay 598 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: the way that they would to protect that actual trust. 599 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 1: Seemed like the law could change and that trust would 600 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: no longer be safe. There were laws in place that 601 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 1: limited trusts. So Astor left his son William half of 602 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 1: the bulk of his fortune, and the other half went 603 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,280 Speaker 1: into a trust for John Jacob the Third. He also 604 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: asked William to make a will with this same set up, 605 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,720 Speaker 1: with John Jacob the Third getting half the family fortune 606 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: and John Jacob the Third's oldest son, who was not 607 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: yet born, getting the other half of the trust. This 608 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: was intended to prevent the family money from ever transferring 609 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 1: to anyone in one lump sum that could then be 610 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: mismanaged or otherwise lost. Three generations of Astor's followed suit 611 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: before great grandson William Waldorf broke this chain. Even with 612 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: his savvy arrangements, it took more than four decades for 613 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 1: all of Astor's will, which included a lot of smaller 614 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 1: sums for various charities, to be fully settled. That will 615 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: had a lot of very sort of odd and nebulous 616 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: bequeathments of like I want to give money to the 617 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 1: elderly of Waldorf, Germany for their care, and it's like, okay, 618 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: but there's nothing set up to handle this, uh, And 619 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: so his executors had to create a lot of new 620 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: funds and smaller trusts and accounts that could handle some 621 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: of his his charitable bequeathments which were, considering his im 622 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: men's fortune, pretty pretty tiny really, um Ah, John Jacob Astar. 623 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: I have to simultaneously admire his intellect and absolutely loathed 624 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: his attitude about other people and how they should be 625 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: taken advantage of every opportunity. It's an I'll talk about 626 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: it behind the scenes. I have a juxtaposition of another 627 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: wealthy man we have talked about before in the show 628 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: that I actually like. But in the meantime, I have 629 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: listener mail. This is from our listener Alessandra, who has 630 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: a question about pronunciation. She writes, high There, I love 631 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: your podcast and your perspectives on history. You convey a 632 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: lot of respect to the cultures and people you discuss. 633 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed your recent episode on Pauline Johnson and 634 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: love the anecdotal inclusion of the house with identical entrances 635 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 1: front and back. Such a beautiful example of blending and 636 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 1: honoring two cultures in one family. I'm a born in 637 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: bred Vancouver right and I don't know anything about her, 638 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 1: so thank you. You seem to take a lot of 639 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 1: care in French pronunciation, which is lovely. I've noticed that 640 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: you apply French pronunciation to Italian names. I know the 641 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,720 Speaker 1: last episode of The Mancini Sisters is a poor example 642 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: to give because they are Italians that moved to France. 643 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: But even in giving the birth names, you say Italian 644 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: names in a French way, it can be distracting. I 645 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: find I just skipped the episodes with Italian subjects. Now 646 00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: she gives some examples which I'm not going to do. 647 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: You won't like it anyway. I'm likely coming across as 648 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: a supercar in but I love my other language and 649 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: wanted to share in case you didn't know. In tribute, 650 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 1: I attached photos of Luke and Newfoundland Bilbo are sweet 651 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: Gray Prince and Butterfly, the cat who likes to shower 652 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,720 Speaker 1: with his humans. I'd include a picture of him showering, 653 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: but I can't seem to get one without including body 654 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,280 Speaker 1: parts you might want to see. I know that trial 655 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: I had a cat that used to shower with me. Um. 656 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: Here's the both Tracy and I have only ever formally 657 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 1: studied French as another language. I grew up speaking it 658 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,800 Speaker 1: a little bit, so that's always my default on anything. Yeah, 659 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 1: Like I took three years of French in high school, 660 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 1: and then six units of French and college and then 661 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: have been really trying to like refresh my French through 662 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,360 Speaker 1: duo lingo. There was a break in there because I 663 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 1: couldn't concentrate on anything because of the early pandemic months, 664 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: but like you know, my duo lingo fell apart at 665 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 1: that point in time. I'm much better with the due 666 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 1: lingo now, So I think it's like not unreasonable to 667 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: expect the one non English language that we've had formal 668 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,720 Speaker 1: study into to like kind of bleed into some other 669 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: things that we try to say. But I started typing 670 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: an answer to the same email and was like, I'm 671 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: honestly not share what you mean, because I researched this 672 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 1: particular episode that prompted the email um and there were 673 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: various audio lectures and presentations and things like that from 674 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 1: people who have either studied the Mancini family or the Mazarinists, 675 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,360 Speaker 1: or who work for archives and libraries that have stuff 676 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:41,279 Speaker 1: about them and their collections and like their pronunciations. We're 677 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 1: basically what we followed. I think probably one of the 678 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 1: examples that was in here was Giovanni, And I'm pretty 679 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 1: sure the way I said that was informed way more 680 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: by having studied the work of Nikki Giovanni, who pronounces 681 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,879 Speaker 1: that name much differently than an Italian person would than 682 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 1: having ever studied French. There's a a wonderful I mean, 683 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: here's the thing, right, Like, it's not that we're taking 684 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,439 Speaker 1: more care in French pronunciation. I think it just comes 685 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: more naturally to both of us. The other thing is that, um, 686 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: I if it makes you feel any better, there are 687 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: French people that don't like the way we've pronounced things either. Yeah, 688 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 1: We've also gotten emails from people who say, I'm not 689 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,680 Speaker 1: listening to any episode you do that involves French because 690 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: your French pronunciation is overpronounced and annoying. And I don't 691 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:30,919 Speaker 1: to be clear, Alessandra, I don't want this to sound 692 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,120 Speaker 1: like we're piling on you, but as an explanation and 693 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,960 Speaker 1: exploration of how different languages and pronunciations work. I this 694 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: is a bit of a divergement, but I hope everyone 695 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,759 Speaker 1: will come on this journey with me. There is a 696 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 1: u a TikTok creator who is like a master bartender. 697 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: He designs cocktail programs for like Michelin Star restaurants named 698 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: Chris Louder. Check him out if you want, and he 699 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: had a wonderful thing when recently the negroni spaggliato became 700 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 1: like the thing in pop culture with prosecco in it. 701 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: With I mean by saying spoggliato, that's what you're saying, 702 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: you're actually saying a messed up negroni because baggliato means mistake. Um, 703 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 1: that is neither here nor there. But there were some 704 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:16,360 Speaker 1: people that were complaining that people weren't pronouncing spargliato correctly, 705 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,399 Speaker 1: and he was like, but if we all know that 706 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 1: that's what we're getting at, maybe we could just get 707 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,320 Speaker 1: past that and recognize that we're all trying to connect 708 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 1: about something. And doesn't that sound like more fun? And 709 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:31,759 Speaker 1: I was like, I kind of love this up to 710 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,799 Speaker 1: do it too. Yeah, I think that sounds great. I mean, 711 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's kind of like when somebody is 712 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,319 Speaker 1: is not from your city, even though like we all 713 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:45,360 Speaker 1: speak English, uh for example, or most of us in 714 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,759 Speaker 1: the U s speak English, but like they will come 715 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,320 Speaker 1: to Atlanta and we have a street in Atlanta that 716 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: looks like it should be Poston and it is constantly 717 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 1: on and so I always find it quite charming when 718 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: people mispronounce it. And I think it's sweet because I 719 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,399 Speaker 1: know exactly where they're talking about, and I don't you know. Yeah, 720 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 1: I promise we're trying real hard to say things as 721 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,839 Speaker 1: well as we can always always, I mean, I never 722 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,839 Speaker 1: want to offend anyone. Italian is very hard for me. 723 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: On the other show, I host Criminalia, I grew up 724 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 1: speaking French my coast. On that show, Maria is from 725 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 1: an Italian family and grows speaking Italian, and we crack 726 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,400 Speaker 1: each other up because we just we gotta meet in 727 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 1: the middle because she has She struggles with French and 728 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,919 Speaker 1: I struggle with Italian. But it's like the what really 729 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 1: gets me a lot of the time in Italian is 730 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,320 Speaker 1: where the accent on a word goes is not natural 731 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,279 Speaker 1: to me at all, and so then if I try 732 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,359 Speaker 1: to hit it, I sound really really silly. But we're 733 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,480 Speaker 1: always trying. I promise, I promise, I promise, no matter 734 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 1: what language you speak, that we have butchered. I promise 735 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 1: we are always always trying and trying to be respectful. 736 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,480 Speaker 1: We are basically always gonna sound like beginners with trying 737 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,319 Speaker 1: to promoun to pronounce most languages because because we are 738 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 1: and we can practice and practice and practice, and we're 739 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 1: still beginners. Yeah. I mean part of that, right is 740 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 1: that like if we were to set aside the history 741 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: research and only spend the time learning the languages, we 742 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:12,840 Speaker 1: would not be able to do history ships. Sometimes I 743 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,800 Speaker 1: feel like that's what I've done. It's tricky. It's tricky. 744 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,839 Speaker 1: Tracy does so much better with Native American language than 745 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: I do. Um, and I always feel really guilty about it. 746 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: Like we there's there are always places where like any 747 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: one person is going to struggle more with one or 748 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:35,400 Speaker 1: another just based on how they're their their pellet and 749 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: tongue come together to make noise. But we also have 750 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,560 Speaker 1: a lot of examples where like there is an American 751 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: English pronunciation for something that is taught in schools and 752 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 1: is in American dictionaries, but is not how a person 753 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,320 Speaker 1: from another place would say it at all, Like Newfoundland 754 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 1: beause I had as a vocabulary word pronounced Newfoundland when 755 00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: I was in fourth grade. Listen, I will never for 756 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,719 Speaker 1: get the crayon worse, those were trying times. If I 757 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:05,359 Speaker 1: just said it in a way you don't like, I'm 758 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 1: so so sorry. I please, I'm not trying to instigate anything. 759 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,560 Speaker 1: In any case, I hope that clarifies. Like I said, 760 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 1: I'm totally not trying to pile on. It's just seemed 761 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 1: like a good, a good jumping off point to talk 762 00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,600 Speaker 1: about how kind of tricky it can be to cover 763 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:22,680 Speaker 1: all these these linguistic shifts that come up in the podcast. Um, 764 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,040 Speaker 1: if you would like to write us tell me how 765 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: I just said crayon the incorrect way, you can do 766 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:31,440 Speaker 1: that if you want. Uh that's it History podcast at 767 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 1: iHeart radio dot com. You can also find us on 768 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,719 Speaker 1: social media as missed in History, or you can subscribe 769 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 1: to Stuffy miss in History Class on the i heeart 770 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 1: radio app, or anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts. 771 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,279 Speaker 1: Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of 772 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,520 Speaker 1: I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, 773 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,720 Speaker 1: visit the i heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 774 00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.