1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope 2 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 2: Guess what, Mango, what's that? 4 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: Well? 5 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 2: All right, I hate to start an episode this way, 6 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 2: but I gotta be honest with you. I'm a little 7 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 2: bit disappointed you. You actually never answered my letter. 8 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: The one you slid under my door that just said, hey, Mango, 9 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to recording later. I mean, you could 10 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: have texted me that. 11 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's the one. I'm actually I'm making an 12 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 2: effort to try to write by hand more. And you know, 13 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 2: while I was researching this episode, I actually discovered that 14 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 2: there are some real benefits to writing the old fashioned way. 15 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Like what so if you write handwritten notes 16 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: in a meeting or a lecture, we actually understand the 17 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 2: material better than if we type them. And part of 18 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 2: the reason for this is that it slows us down. 19 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 2: We have to process what's being said, and then we 20 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 2: decide which words to write from that. And that's different 21 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 2: than when we type, because when we're at our computers, 22 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 2: we can trans describe things we hear without really thinking 23 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 2: about what those words mean or whether they're important or not. 24 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: That's really interesting, you know, I feel like, I'm such 25 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,680 Speaker 1: a bad note taker because often I start writing, but 26 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: then my pages just descend into doodles. It's like I 27 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: have no concentration for any. 28 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 2: I can remember from as far back as our college 29 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 2: years when you would be doing exactly that, and I 30 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 2: remember those those doodles that were quite impressive. But the 31 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 2: handwriting actually takes concentration, and your brain has to actually 32 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 2: visualize the shapes that you're putting on the page and 33 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 2: create them individually. So you're activating both the part of 34 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 2: the brain responsible for fine motor skills and the part 35 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 2: that does visual information processing. But the way the brain 36 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: operates as it syncs up these processes is it's associated 37 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 2: with forming memories and actually learning better. 38 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: So, in other words, by not texting me this morning, 39 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: you gave your friend a little workout. 40 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean it feels so strong right now, 41 00:01:57,800 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: and you know so out of the two of us, 42 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 2: I guess, yes, I'm slightly in better shape for an 43 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 2: episode about handwriting and the tools we used to do it. 44 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 2: But I have faith in you, Mango. You're going to 45 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 2: catch up. I think we're going to be good. So 46 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:32,399 Speaker 2: let's dive in. Hey, their podcast listeners Welcome to Part 47 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,399 Speaker 2: Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson, and as always I'm here 48 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 2: with my good friend Mangesh hot Ticketter and on the 49 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 2: other side of that booth as our pal Dylan. Now 50 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: sometimes he challenges us more than others to figure out 51 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 2: what exactly he's doing behind the booth there. It took 52 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 2: me a minute because Dylan is wearing a lab coat, 53 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 2: which at first glance doesn't seem to have anything to 54 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,119 Speaker 2: do with this topic. But then I saw the prescription 55 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: pad that he's holding. Did you notice this, Mango, I 56 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 2: did notice it. It's pretty it's pretty awesome, and I 57 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 2: think the idea is the old cliche about doctors having 58 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: bad handwriting. That's our good pal Dylan fing and that's 59 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 2: a good one, Dylan. 60 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: I mean he also wheeled in that exam tables. You 61 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: put so much effort into these things, but will before 62 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: we go too much further, I am curious if handwriting 63 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: has so many benefits for our brains. I've actually been 64 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: wondering if my kids should be doing it more, because like, 65 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: I don't think my kids even know how to write cursive, 66 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: Like everything's on laptops these days. 67 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty wild. I mean they're such digital creatures. 68 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 2: But kids' brains definitely benefit from handwriting, and it starts 69 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 2: when they're really young, like when they're learning the ABC's 70 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 2: tracing letters, you know, that actually helps them recognize and 71 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 2: understand letters better than when they type them, and this 72 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 2: develops the areas of the brain that they'll use for 73 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 2: reading throughout their life. Of course, they should probably learn 74 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 2: how to use modern technology too, so you know, maybe 75 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 2: keep the laptops around as well, But there's really benefits 76 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: to both. 77 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: So it's funny. I actually read this story this week 78 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: about a Scottish school where they're forcing kids to learn 79 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: how to use fountain pens as seven year olds. Wow, 80 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: And it's because apparently you can get away with worse 81 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: handwriting with a pencil or ballpoint pen, but you really 82 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: have to write more neatly and legibly with the fountain pen. 83 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 1: And the headmaster there says that slowing kids down, like 84 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: you said, makes the kids understand more and really makes 85 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: them comprehend more, but also it apparently raises their self esteem, 86 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 1: which is really interesting, Like these kids feel really special 87 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: because they're using these fountain pens, so I know, we've 88 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: got a little bit of pen history to get into. 89 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: But before that, I thought, maybe we should do a 90 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 1: little bit on the history of writing and where it 91 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: really began. 92 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 2: Let's do it, I said, we go back to the beginning. 93 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: I'm sure you won't be surprised to know that writing 94 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: originated in ancient Mesopotamia and it's around thirty five hundred 95 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: BCE when the Cuneiform script was invented. And apparently cuneiform 96 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: actually means wedge shaped, which is why I guess it 97 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: helps you know what to picture. 98 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean those are the chunky triangular symbols, right, Yeah. 99 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 1: And honestly, learning the script was not easy, so back 100 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: then most people only had a very basic grasp of 101 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: writing events. Literacy was in common, which is how scribes 102 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: came about, and scribes were responsible for writing stuff down, 103 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: particularly about financial transactions and trade. But over time they 104 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: started being involved with more fields and it was required 105 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: for scribes to know about everything they wrote about, so 106 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: they were kind of these scholars. They had to learn 107 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 1: about everything from mathematics to agriculture, to religion, to politics 108 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: and even more. And they also had to learn six 109 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: hundred characters of cuneiform. 110 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 2: Wow, six hundred characters, I mean that's a lot harder 111 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 2: than our twenty six So how did they learn all this? 112 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, so scribe school. Apparently they went to something called 113 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,559 Speaker 1: an Eduba or the House of Tablets, which sounds straight 114 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: out of National Treasure, but definitely serious business. Classes were 115 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: in session from sunrise till sunset, and most students started 116 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: around eight years old, and then they didn't graduate until 117 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: their early twenties. I mean, it actually kind of makes 118 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: sense considering how much they had to learn. I do 119 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: wonder though, like, do you think there was more or 120 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: less note passing in scribal school than when we were 121 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: in school? I take a lot less because of the 122 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: carving and all. Probably, so, you know, staying focused was 123 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: definitely a big thing for these kids, because you were 124 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: plucked to be scribes, and you kind of knew you 125 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: had a good life waiting ahead of you. Scribes were 126 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: sometimes referred to as those who never go hungry because 127 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 1: they had this crucial skill in a population of mostly 128 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: illiterate people, and so they actually had a lot of 129 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: power and a lot of the benefits that come with up. 130 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's super interesting. It actually reminds me of a 131 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 2: word I heard from Herman Melville. It's the word scrivener, 132 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 2: as in Bartleby the Scrivener. He's a character whose job 133 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 2: is copying documents for a lawyer and he writes everything 134 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 2: by hand, not because the lawyer is illiterate, he just 135 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 2: has lots of documents to deal with. And this is 136 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 2: pre zero obviously. 137 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: You know, I have never read Melville. I feel a 138 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: little embarrassed to be admitting that on this show. But 139 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: that term scrivener that you mentioned is often used interchangeably 140 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: with scribe because their jobs were the same at various 141 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: points in history. But there's actually a huge distinction between 142 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: the two. So over time, as business and legal transactions 143 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: began to use written instead of oral communication, scriveners were 144 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: kind of more like everyday copyists who wrote out civil 145 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: documents and correspondence. Will scribes were definitely more errordyed and educated. 146 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: They were associated with scholarship and art and scientific and 147 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: religious thinking. And part of this distinction comes about in 148 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: the thirteenth century. This is when the courts, at least 149 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: in Europe began requiring written instead of oral records, which 150 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: meant that plaintiffs needed the documents to be perfect, otherwise 151 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: the courts could throw their case out. So Europe started 152 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: differentiating between document scriveners who wrote things like legal documents 153 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: and deeds, and book scriveners or scribe vibes who worked 154 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: in book production. 155 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 2: I mean, what about like notaries. I feel like they're 156 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 2: kind of kind of in the same field in a 157 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 2: way at least. 158 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, So Meredith and Gabe actually had a note on 159 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: these two. Apparently they were around in ancient Egypt, but 160 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: only really became established during the Roman Empire. The first 161 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: notary was an enslaved person named Tierro, and he worked 162 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: for the great orator and statesman Cicero. So Tiro wrote 163 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: down all of Cicero's speeches, which is actually how we 164 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: have them, and he's credited with developing a form of 165 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: shorthand called note. But he also helped with official political 166 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: and financial matters. Anyway, as the legal system was evolving 167 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, notaries started catching on 168 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: in England. Then they became essential to global exploration in 169 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: the Renaissance. So this hadn't even occurred to me, But 170 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: apparently on all of Columbus's voyages he had notaries, and 171 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: this was because King Ferdinand and Queen Isabela wanted to 172 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 1: make sure someone was keeping crack of all the treasure 173 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: he found and that it was all still there when 174 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: Columbus traveled back. But the job has actually evolved over 175 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: time to where notaries take fewer notes and basically authenticate 176 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: documents and witness signature is the way you think of 177 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: them today, all. 178 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 2: Right, So he had notaries on all of these voyages. 179 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 2: It is sort of a funny picture. And I know 180 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 2: a lot of these images come from pop culture and 181 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 2: movies and things like that, but you picture these voyages 182 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 2: as filled with I don't know, I guess unsavory sailors, 183 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 2: But I love that there was just an official in 184 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 2: the corner like taking notes on everything. 185 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: I'm sure that person was super, super popular and included 186 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: in all the pirate games, and ivity is exactly so. 187 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: Colonial America also took their notary game seriously because they 188 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: were so important to keeping documents safe and accurately reporting 189 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: facts about, you know, all the trends Atlantic commerce. So 190 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: Thomas Bugle was appointed in sixteen thirty nine as the 191 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: colony's first notary, but he kind of has a black 192 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: mark against his name. He got busted for false defying documents, 193 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: and he was kicked out of office, he was excommunicated 194 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: from the church, and then he was sent back to 195 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:07,959 Speaker 1: England in disgrace. 196 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 2: And so what happened to him after that? 197 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: You know, because notaries do all the writing, it's weirdly 198 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: not clear what happened to him because no one bothered 199 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: to write it down. But anyway, now that we know 200 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: who he was doing, was the note taking in early history, 201 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 1: I really want to switch gears to talk about pens 202 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: and the pens that have made all this history possible. 203 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 1: So let's do that right after this break. Welcome back 204 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: to Part Time Genius, where we're talking about handwriting, and 205 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: we're about to switch gears to pens, which will I 206 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: know you looked into Let's dig into it all right. 207 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 2: So I wanted to know what the first pen actually was, 208 00:10:57,800 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 2: and so that brought me all the way back to 209 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 2: the first millennium BCE. Back then the Chinese used a 210 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 2: brush dipped in ink to write, and that's the earliest 211 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 2: known ancestor of the pen. You then fast forward to 212 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 2: three hundred BCE and you have the Egyptians who started 213 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 2: using these thick reeds as sort. 214 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: Of like pen like instruments, and I'm guessing this is 215 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:20,719 Speaker 1: sort of like the same principle as the quill pen. 216 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty much exactly the same thing. And quill 217 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 2: pins are super important in pen history. Actually, the word 218 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 2: pen comes from the Latin word pinna, meaning wing, And 219 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 2: so we know quills were in use by the seventh 220 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 2: century because the theologian and archbishop Isidor of Seville mentioned 221 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 2: them in his writing, but they were probably around even 222 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: earlier than that. 223 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: You know, I've always wondered how people ended on which 224 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: birds feathers to use their quill pens, like, it just 225 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: seems curious to me. 226 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and well, apparently any large bird would do so. 227 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 2: They would use feathers from eagles, peacocks, turkeys. When they 228 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 2: needed to do things like fine detailed work, maybe like accounting, 229 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 2: they would use crow quills. It was just interesting to 230 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 2: think about the different types of feathers that could be used. 231 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 2: But the top bird for a quill pen was said 232 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 2: to be a domesticated white goose. Its five biggest wing 233 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 2: feathers are considered perfect for quill pens. Thomas Jefferson even 234 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 2: kept a flock of geese at Monticello to supply him 235 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 2: with quills, which is not something I'd ever thought about before. 236 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: That's really fascinating. It is crazy though, right, like you 237 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: think about like the difference between eel's feather, a peacock feather, 238 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 1: and a crow's feather, right, like one is magnificent and 239 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: the others just kind of. 240 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 2: Like around right right, such an insult. 241 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: It's funny. Aja Jacobs was on this show talking about 242 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: the Constitution earlier this year, and he let me write 243 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: with one of his quill pens, and I think he 244 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: was using a turkey feather and it was the worst sound. 245 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 1: It's like high pitched and scratchy, and you can't imagine 246 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 1: like trying to write out the Constitution with one of 247 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: these things. Yeah, and Aj said when he'd write his 248 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: manuscript with us at home, the sound was so bad 249 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: that his wife made him do it from another groom 250 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,839 Speaker 1: and close the doors. 251 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 2: So funny, only an Aja problem. 252 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,359 Speaker 1: But the other thing you said, which I found really fascinating, 253 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: was kind of like with the fountain pins, that you 254 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: write so slowly that you really have a lot of 255 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: time to process your thoughts and also be very judicious 256 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: and selective with your vocabularies, so you're you know, the 257 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: way you write is almost more thoughtful because it's not 258 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 1: just like banging out keys on a keyboard or something. 259 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, that's super interesting. Actually, one question I 260 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 2: had was why did quills last for such a long time. 261 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously it was cheaper to go pluck birds 262 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 2: feathers than to make a metal implement, but it feels 263 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 2: like someone would have produced a fake quill by this point. 264 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 2: And it turns out the answer has to do with 265 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 2: the ink itself. So seventeenth century ink was made of 266 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 2: iron salts and oak galls and gum arabic and it 267 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 2: made it very acidic, and so when people did try 268 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 2: to use steel quills, it ate away at these new 269 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 2: fangled pins they were trying to make. It actually wasn't 270 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,839 Speaker 2: until the mid eighteen hundreds that you get these stronger, 271 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 2: more acid resistant steel that was being invented at the time, 272 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 2: and that's when steel pen nibs started being mass produced 273 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 2: and steel pens overtook the quills. 274 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: That's so crazy, Like you don't even think about the 275 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: way the ink might have affected the mechanics of the pen. 276 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: That's really really amazing. So tell me about fountain pens 277 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: and I'm prettily interested in these, you know we mentioned 278 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: at the top. Also, these were an instrument that made 279 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: no sense to me as a kid. I remember like 280 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: playing with my grandfather's fun pen and either ink would 281 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: get all over the place or it was that scratchy sound, 282 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: which I hated. But I've recently started playing with fun 283 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: pens and I like the experience so much that I've 284 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: been giving them out as gifts. I'm curious, how did 285 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: this pen come to be? 286 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the fountain pen is an evolution on the 287 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 2: dipping your quill and ink method because it has this 288 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 2: ink reservoir. It has a nib like I mentioned in 289 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 2: the first reference we have to fountain pins. It's in 290 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 2: a tenth century manuscript from Arab Egypt. Now in it 291 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 2: and a mom commissions a pin with ink stored inside 292 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 2: so he doesn't need to keep dipping his quill. Plus 293 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 2: he requests that a writer could store it in their 294 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 2: sleeve without staining their. 295 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: Shirt, which feels like very specific requests. 296 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 2: Totally, but it took a long time for those problems 297 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 2: to get worked out. The first practical version of the 298 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 2: fountain pen wasn't produced until centuries later. This was in 299 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 2: eighteen eighty three, when an American named Lewis Edson Waterman 300 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: patented the modern fountain pin. Waterman had invented a new 301 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 2: system to move ink smoothly down the pen nib without 302 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 2: leaking or making blobs all over the paper, and he 303 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 2: sold his what he called ideal fountain pen from a 304 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 2: cigar shop in Lower Manhattan, and people loved it, so 305 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 2: he started advertising it, and eventually he created the Waterman 306 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: Pen Company, which is of course still in business today. 307 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: How is it that Waterman ends up coming up with 308 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: this idea? 309 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: You know, as with many things that were invented some 310 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 2: time ago, the stories can vary, but if you look 311 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 2: at the Waterman Pen Company's ads through the nineteen hundreds, 312 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: here's what they say happened. They say Lewis Waterman was 313 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 2: an insurance salesman on the brink of closing this big contract, 314 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 2: and he offered his client a fountain pen to sign 315 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 2: the contract. But then the pen leaked all over the paper, 316 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 2: and so Waterman ran out to get another pin. But somehow, 317 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 2: while he was gone, a rival broker swooped in and 318 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 2: closed the deal. I just love the imagery of this. 319 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 2: But according to legend, Waterman decided then and there that 320 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 2: he would invent a more reliable fountain pin. So he 321 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 2: started tinkering in his brother's workshop, and the rest is, 322 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 2: of course history. 323 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: I love this idea of like rivals just lurking in 324 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: the back of d Yeah, ready to go wrong. 325 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 2: That's right. 326 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: So it sounds like maybe you're a little skeptical about 327 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: the story. 328 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you do find this story with slight 329 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 2: variations in almost every hitory of the fountain pen. But 330 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 2: I'm sad to say it's most likely not at all true, 331 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 2: and a vintage pen expert and historian Daniel Kersheimer debunked 332 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 2: the myth in one of the most enjoyable research papers 333 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 2: I have ever read. So Kersheimer discovered that the earliest 334 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 2: mention of the fountain pen creation story comes from nineteen twelve, 335 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 2: and interestingly, it contains some details that only appear there 336 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 2: and in no future version of the tale. Like it 337 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 2: includes Waterman tinkering with a pre existing pin rather than 338 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 2: making one from scratch in his brother's workshop. Now that clue, 339 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 2: and that there was a pre existing pen that pointed 340 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 2: the way to an earlier article from nineteen ten that 341 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 2: tells an entirely different story. It's about three people in Connecticut. 342 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 2: You've got Frank Hollind, Aaron Cook, and Aaron's sister Mabel. 343 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: So I don't Jerr Lewis Waterman in that mix. 344 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 2: He is not part of this story. And it seems 345 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 2: this guy Holland was talking about how whoever could combine 346 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 2: the best inc and the best pen to create a 347 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 2: fountain pen that didn't leak would get rich. So he 348 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 2: and his friends talked through this idea, and Holland was 349 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 2: actually a skilled engineer and created this prototype of the 350 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 2: improved fountain pen the following day after this conversation. Now, 351 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 2: eventually this group formed the Holland Stylographic Pen Company. The 352 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 2: founding members applied for and got this patent for their 353 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 2: fountain pens, but they still had one major issue. After 354 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 2: writing for a few hours, a giant ink blot would 355 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 2: flow down. 356 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 1: That seemed like a problem. 357 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 2: It's a nightmare. 358 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: So they move on from there. 359 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 2: Well, eventually the Holland Company made its way to New 360 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 2: York where they linked up with Waterman, who figured out 361 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 2: that if you added two indents inside the pen, they 362 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 2: stopped the blotting issue. I love invention stories like this, 363 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 2: especially the real ones where like that was such a 364 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 2: creative way to solve this problem. So Waterman immediately filed 365 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 2: for his own patent and ended up earning six thousand 366 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 2: dollars in the first year of his pen sales, which 367 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:57,360 Speaker 2: would have been a lot of money at that point. 368 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I imagine, so that whole thing about the client 369 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: with the ruined contractors is totally bunk. 370 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 2: Then, it seems. Unfortunately that's the case, and the story 371 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 2: was probably just invented by the marketing department after Waterman 372 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 2: died in nineteen oh one, and over time it kind 373 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 2: of became the only story that people know. 374 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: Well, people do love inventor hero stories. And I've actually 375 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 1: got another one that I want to tell, which is true. 376 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 2: All right, let's hear it. 377 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: So this one's about the ballpoint pen, which has a 378 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: complicated origin as well, and the first one was patented 379 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty eight by an American named John Loud 380 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: who wanted a pen that would write on a variety 381 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: of materials. Right, so, of course he wanted it to 382 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: be able to write on paper, but also wood and leather. 383 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 1: He added this rotating steel ball inside his pen to 384 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: control the ink flow, but he never got the paper 385 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: part down, it could only write on those rough surfaces, 386 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 1: and his patent lapsed before you could improve it. And 387 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,880 Speaker 1: it wasn't until the nineteen thirties that a Hungarian Argentinian 388 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: inventor made this whole contraption work. He's the one who 389 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: tends to get the credit for inventing the ballpoint pen. 390 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: His name is laslow Biro a bureau. 391 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 2: I've actually heard that word so in ingland's what they 392 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 2: call ballpoint pins, right. 393 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: That's exactly right. So Iero was a journalist and he 394 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: used fountain pens all the time and knew there had 395 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: to be a better way to write in a blotless, 396 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: mudchless manner. So he realized that adding a ball inside 397 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: a pen was a good start, but really it wasn't 398 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: good enough. He needed a new type of ink, one 399 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: that would dry quicker like newspaper ink. And his brother, 400 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: who was a dentist, and also somehow a knowledgeable chemist, 401 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: decided to help him out. 402 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 2: So I feel like a lot of times when we're 403 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 2: telling these stories from history, there's so many multi hyphenates 404 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 2: in the history stories, Like here we've got an inventor 405 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 2: slash journalist and a Dennis slash chemist. I don't think 406 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 2: you see many of those these days. 407 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I could really do one thing. These 408 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 1: people ever liked it, like masters of several things. But 409 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: Laslow's brother actually did come through. He creates this fast 410 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: drying with high viscosity and it was kind of a 411 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: bonus like the resulting pen used way less ink than 412 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: fountain pens as a result of this, and Laslow got 413 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: a patent for the pen in nineteen thirty eight. The 414 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: pen was officially released in nineteen forty three, and one 415 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: of his first big customers was the British Royal Air Force, 416 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: who ordered thirty thousand of the pens. Because I don't 417 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: know if you've ever tried to write with pens an 418 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: airplane or something, but these pens could actually withstand the 419 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: changes in pressure, so they wouldn't sort of spill all 420 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: over the place like fountain pens. 421 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. Actually, I didn't think about that that fountain pens 422 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 2: would malfunction in the air. And obviously this was during 423 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 2: World War Two, so I'm guessing the Air Force was 424 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 2: crazy busy at this point. 425 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. So at the time Laslow was living in South America. 426 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 1: But what's interesting is that besides the Royal Air Force, 427 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: the pen really didn't make that much of a global impact. Eventually, 428 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: after the war, there was this American businessman, his name 429 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: was Milton Reynolds, and he comes across bureaus pens. He 430 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: kind of tweaks the designs to make the ink flow 431 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: by gravity, not a capillary action, and this version of 432 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: the ballpoint becomes huge in the US. In nineteen forty five, 433 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: Time magazine reported quote, thousands of people all but trampled 434 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: one another last week to spend twelve dollars of fifty 435 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: cents each for a new style fountain pen, which was 436 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: these ballpoint pens. And within six months, the department store 437 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: Gimbals had made five point six million dollars in ballpoint 438 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: pen sales, which is around eighty one million dollars today. 439 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 2: Wow, and that's just Gimbals. That is wild. So people 440 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: must have been making a fortune on these things. Yeah. 441 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: But what's interesting is that the ballpoint was marketed kind 442 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: of like a fountain pen of the time, right. It 443 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: still need to be refilled every two years, so customers 444 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: bought a lot of refills, but not as many new pens. 445 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: And obviously that's a problem for a company that wants 446 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: to maximize profits. So it was actually a guy named 447 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 1: Michelle Bick who addressed that issue in the nineteen fifties. 448 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: He was an Italian born French industrialist and he came 449 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: up with idea to make the pens disposable. In fact, 450 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 1: his obituary read quote he added the magic catalyst of disposability. 451 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: He invented nothing, but understood the mass market almost perfectly. 452 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 2: He invented nothing at such a great phrase for an obituary. 453 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really amazing. But Bick, whose name was spelled Bich, 454 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: was advised by an ad exec to shorten his name 455 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: to Bic. And obviously we all know the bigpen Tony. 456 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: So it's estimated that fifteen million ballpoint pens are sold 457 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 1: every single day and Bick is the leading manufacturer. 458 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I feel like there's about two million 459 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 2: in every pack that you buy of those big pins. 460 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 2: But it's so wild that he basically made it okay 461 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 2: for us to be more forgetful. Like before Bick, you 462 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 2: actually had to keep track of these expensive pins. And actually, 463 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 2: one major drawback to the disposable pin is the environmental impact. 464 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 2: Because I was thinking about this, I have to admit 465 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 2: I'm really bad about this if you have a cheap 466 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 2: pin of somehow misplacing it. And then in the United 467 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 2: States alone, it's estimated that over one point six billion 468 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 2: pins are thrown away every single year. That's not to 469 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 2: mention the impact of pen production, which applies to all pins. 470 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,120 Speaker 2: And you know that's the fancy ones with the gold 471 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 2: nibs to the cheap disposable ones. 472 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 1: You know, there are not a lot of things that 473 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: I am proud of or brag about, but holding on 474 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: to pens is one of the few things I am 475 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 1: really good at. 476 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 2: There you go, You should brag about that. You should 477 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 2: use that as a lead whenever you meet everyone, Mango. 478 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: It's at the top of my resume. Hey, but there 479 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: was a kid in elementary school, this kid named Tim, 480 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: and for some reason, his mom was very strict with him, 481 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: and she gave him like seven pencils at the beginning 482 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: of the year or whatever and showed him not to 483 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: lose him. And at the end of the year he 484 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: actually had like four or five of these pencils, and 485 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: I just remember being so impressed, and I kind of 486 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: made it a challenge for myself to like hold on 487 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: to pens. 488 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty great. 489 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: But I don't know if you have this relationship. But 490 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 1: the thing I was going to say, get back on track. 491 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: But my grandfather, what are the few like pieces of 492 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 1: advice he instilled in me was to always carry a 493 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 1: pen with me. And that's because he was a multi hyphene, right, 494 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: he was a you know, a chemist and an engineer 495 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: and like a writer and all these other things. And 496 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,479 Speaker 1: his point was like, you never know when you're going 497 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: to want to write down a note or an idea. 498 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 1: It's just useful to have a pen. And it's like 499 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: my dad always carried a pen for the same reason. 500 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 1: And I still like, I feel like I'm not fully 501 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 1: dressed if I go out for the world and don't 502 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: have a pen in my pocket. 503 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 2: I completely agree, I always have a pen in my pocket. 504 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 2: I may be a different pin because, like I said, 505 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 2: I'm really bad at keeping up with him, but I 506 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 2: always managed to find a pen. And apparently you're not 507 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 2: the only one who values pins, because there's a growing 508 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 2: community of pen enthusiasts and they're keeping the classic ways alive. 509 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,959 Speaker 2: Fountain pen collecting has become a pretty big thing, and 510 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 2: for some collectors it's not just about the craftsmanship of 511 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 2: the pen or the value that they hold, although that's 512 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 2: of course important, a lot of people just love writing 513 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 2: with them. In fact, people spend a whopping three hundred 514 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 2: and forty one million dollars on fountain pens in twenty 515 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 2: twenty one. That was a seven percent increase from just 516 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 2: a few years before that. There are indie fountain pen 517 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 2: companies popping up, constructing new pins and kind of blending 518 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 2: these niche inks, and there's some really cool online communities 519 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 2: where fountain pen enthusiast talk shop, like the Fountain pens 520 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 2: subreddit which has over three hundred thousand members, and all 521 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 2: the content on pen talk and Instagram, so like the 522 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 2: list just goes on. There's a lot of enthusiasm for them. 523 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny. I gotten to fun pens recently because 524 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 1: my cousin took me to a shop and we just 525 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: started playing, and I really liked Invite. I had no 526 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: idea that this thing was so trendy. 527 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's a huge thing. So there's this guy, 528 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 2: Aiden Bernal, and he reviews fountain pens and inks and 529 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 2: he has more than six hundred thousand subscribers. They're also tutorials, 530 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,199 Speaker 2: reports from pen shows, which are apparently a pretty big thing. 531 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,199 Speaker 2: It's kind of like Comic Con for pins. 532 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: I feel like someone should invite us to the Comic 533 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: Con for pens because it's the type of thing I 534 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:02,959 Speaker 1: would happily go to. 535 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think there's a decent chance there's 536 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 2: an overlap between pen enthusiast and some of the listeners 537 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 2: of Part Time Genius, So keep that in mind. Guys, 538 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 2: if you're ready, invite Mango to your next pen gathering. 539 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 2: But apparently these take place all around the world, but 540 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 2: one place that's become a real hotbed of fountain pen 541 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 2: collecting is the Philippines. The Manila Pen Show is actually 542 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 2: the biggest in Southeast Asia, and one of the country's 543 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 2: most renowned authors, jose Dellaside Junior, has helped spread the 544 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 2: love of pins through his blog it's called Pinoy Penmen, 545 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 2: and in twenty eighteen, a company called Kosama created the 546 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 2: first ever Filipino made fountain pin. 547 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 1: That's so fascinating. I wonder why fountain pins have caught 548 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: on there, of all places. You know, like many things, 549 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,959 Speaker 1: there's probably a lot of reasons, including a cultural interest 550 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: in handicraft and proximity to pen manufacturers and specialty shops 551 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: in Japan, but also younger Philippine those have gotten into 552 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: the hobby and given this local pen community a boost 553 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: of energy at a time when some European pen communities 554 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: are starting to trend older and older. That's really cool. 555 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,360 Speaker 1: I love that pens are young person's game. Now, that's right. 556 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: But before I go off and dive into this internet 557 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 1: pen culture, which I'm absolutely gonna do, now, oh, why 558 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 1: don't we do a little fact off? 559 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 2: All right, let's do it. 560 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: So we were talking earlier about scribes and scriptners, and 561 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: apparently they used different types of handwriting script depending on 562 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: the purpose. This was true in every society that began 563 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: to privilege literacy over the oral records. So, for example, 564 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: at various times in China, scribes used what's known as 565 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,959 Speaker 1: the seal script for commemorative inscriptions. They also had a 566 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: clerical script for documents and correspondence, a cursive script for 567 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: esthetic appeal, and a semi cursive script known as the 568 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: running script for convenience. 569 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 2: That we talked about Big being the leading manufacturer of 570 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 2: ballpoint pins, and since nineteen fifty they have sold over 571 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 2: one hundred billion ballpoint pens worldwide, and as we know, 572 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 2: there is no way to really measure the scale of 573 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 2: something without seeing how many times you can go to 574 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 2: the moon and back. That's really like our standard measurement 575 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 2: for big numbers, so we had to look into it. 576 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 2: That is so many pins that a stack of them 577 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 2: could go to the moon and back more than three 578 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 2: hundred and twenty thousand times. Now that makes it a 579 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 2: lot of pins. 580 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: That is insane. Speaking of the moon, you may have 581 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: heard the story that during the Space Race, NASA spent 582 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: millions trying to figure out how to make a pen 583 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: work in space where there is obviously no gravity. Meanwhile, 584 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: the Soviets at the time just use pencils. Part of 585 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: that is a bit of a myth. NASA actually used 586 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: pencils as well, but in nineteen sixty five they did 587 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: get into hot water with taxpayers for buying thirty four 588 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: mechanical pencils at one hundred and twenty eight dollars and 589 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: eighty nine cents a piece. It was the Fisher Pen 590 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: company that finally developed a pen that could write in space, 591 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: and NASA started using it in nineteen sixty seven for 592 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: a much more reasonable cost of two dollars and thirty 593 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: nine cents per pen. And this was the pen that 594 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: the astronauts on the Apollo eleven mission used to fix 595 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: a broken arming switch, which allowed them to return to Earth. 596 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 2: Wow, so pens really do save lives. But I'm curious 597 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 2: how did they use the pen by like doing a 598 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 2: calculation or something. 599 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: No, apparently a switch broke and they used the pen 600 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: to push in a circuit breaker. Oh okay, I guess 601 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: they could have used a pencil in that case too. 602 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: But obviously pencils are a serious hazard in space, with 603 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: little bits of debris that can fly around the shuttles. 604 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: So like if you think about pencil shavings or little 605 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: pieces of lead that could break off, all of that 606 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,479 Speaker 1: ends up being a hazard for astronauts. But what's funny 607 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: is that the pens were so good at writing in 608 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: microgravity that cosmonauts actually began using them too, So this 609 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: is one technology that we actually shared. 610 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 2: Huh, that's interesting. All right, Well, if you've ever wondered 611 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 2: what the ball and the ballpoint pin is made of, 612 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 2: it's a tungsten carbide pellet. Now to make it its 613 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 2: ground between plates until it becomes a sphere, and this 614 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 2: is a process that can take up to sixty hours. 615 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 2: Sixty hours, it's a long time to do this, but 616 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 2: that extra effort is worth it. When the ball is complete, 617 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 2: it's actually as hard as a diamond. You know. 618 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: It's one of those things that I almost forget that 619 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: there's a ball in ballpoint pens most of the time. 620 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: But it's also funny that these pens are so disposable 621 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: and yet we're spending sixty hours perfecting the sphere inside them. 622 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: That's amazing. It is so speaking of pen parts, did 623 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: you know there are people known as nidmeisters who repair pendants. 624 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 2: I did not know this, Mango, and I personally am 625 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 2: not a nibmeister, but now I have a new goal 626 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 2: in life. 627 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: So appairly you learn this craft through mentorship and practice. 628 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: And it said that each nymmeister's work has a unique personality. 629 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: You can actually tell people nibs apart. 630 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 2: God, nib meister. It's like it's a new scrabble word. 631 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 2: It's also just it feels like something you want to 632 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 2: call somebody when they've just been amazing, like they're just 633 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 2: a total nibmeister, you know, Or maybe it's an insult. 634 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 2: I can't decide. We'll have to work shop it a 635 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 2: little bit of all right. Well, for a number of decades, 636 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 2: the government has relied on the exact same pin. It's 637 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 2: a Black skill Craft ballpoint pin, and according to an 638 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 2: article in the Washington Post, the specifications for the pen 639 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 2: come from a nineteen thirty eight mandate. In fact, the 640 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 2: government had sixteen pages for specifications for their pen, including 641 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 2: that quote, it must be able to write continuously for 642 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 2: a mile and in temperatures up to one hundred and 643 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 2: sixty degrees and down to forty degrees below zero. I 644 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 2: don't know what's happening at those temperatures. But according to 645 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 2: the article, it's been used in war zones and gas stations. 646 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 2: It was designed to fit undetected into US military uniforms, 647 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 2: and according to company lore, the pen can stand in 648 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 2: for a two inch fuse and comes in handy during 649 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 2: emergency trade giotomies. The pins are ubiquitous and still used 650 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 2: in government offices today, and as one government official referred 651 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 2: to them, they're the Coca Cola of pins. 652 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: Who is the person who has to right in one 653 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: hundred and sixty degrees or heard negative forty degrees. 654 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 2: That's what I want to know. Write this for a mile. 655 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. 656 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: I really thought I had you with my Nibmeister in fact, 657 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: but I think the government penn story really is hard 658 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: to be So why why don't you take today's trophy. 659 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 2: I'll take it, but I have to be honest. I 660 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 2: know we hear from our listeners sometimes when they disagree 661 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 2: with who wins the trophy. I think this is going 662 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 2: to be one of those. Nibmeister was pretty good, but 663 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 2: you're kind to do that. I will accept the trophy. Well, 664 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 2: that wraps up today's episode from Dylan, Gabe, Mary Mango 665 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 2: and me. And actually I want to give a shout 666 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 2: out to Meredith who made some amazing contributions with today's research. Now, 667 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 2: remember you can always find us on Instagram at part 668 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 2: Time Genius and if you're someone who posts pictures of 669 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,479 Speaker 2: your fountain pins, please tag it. We'd love to see them. 670 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 2: Thanks again for listening. We'll talk to you next time. 671 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: Part Time Genius is a production of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. 672 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: This show is hosted by Will Pearson and Me Mongagetikler 673 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: and research by our good pal Mary, Philip Sandy Today's 674 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: episode was engineered and produced by the wonderful Dylan Fagan 675 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: with support from Tyler Klang. The show is executive produced 676 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: for iHeart by Katrina Norvell and Ali Perry, with social 677 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: media support from Sasha Gay trustee Dara Potts and buy 678 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: Any Shorey. For more podcasts from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio, visit 679 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 680 00:34:50,320 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.