WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 23 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.480 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:06.199 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:09.400 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.239 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.800 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.959 there's gotta be nothing new here for you, But you 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:24.520 can make your own decisions. Hey everybody, Uh, Robert Evans here, 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:27.800 along with Garrison and Chris. Um, we are pre empting 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:31.240 the episode that will be airing after this because Um 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:34.279 of events that happened in Portland, Oregon this weekend. On 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:40.760 Saturday the nineteen there was a weekly racial justice march. UM. 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:43.600 The march again it occurred. Its occurred every week for 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:46.640 a couple of years now. UM. It is instensibly led 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:51.680 by the mother of a Patrick Kimmins, who is a 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:54.400 Portland a young black Portland man who was killed by 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:57.400 the police a couple of years ago. UM. This is 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:00.360 a regular thing. As a general rule, you'll see a 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:02.120 lot of folks in the right talking about this. March 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:06.320 is like an Antifa gathering. Um. This almost never gets 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:10.080 any coverage whatsoever. Because as a general rule, UM, it's 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:14.120 it's just a march where people, you know, protest police violence. 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:18.240 It's not something that that tends to draw much attention, UM, 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:23.280 even within Portland's UM. This Saturday, a person who lived 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:25.680 in the neighborhood where people were assembling for the march 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:30.600 UM left their home confronted a group of women who 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:35.440 were acting as corkers. Corking is a job at protests. 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:38.320 It's a traffic safety thing. It's people on a mix 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:41.480 of usually bikes, motorcycle scooters every now and you see 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:43.959 like a one wheel and their job is to kind 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:46.760 of route traffic around the march in order to keep 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:49.680 people from getting hit by cars. UM. It is a 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:55.000 safety thing. UM. These folks were confronted by this person. 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:57.800 Reports on the ground that have been covered in local 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:02.000 news from people who were there say that he started 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:05.480 out yelling at them, calling them terrorists and um. According 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:07.000 to one person who was on the scene, within about 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:12.600 ninety seconds began firing. Uh. He hit and killed one woman, UM, 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:17.680 and he wounded four others UM. And he himself was 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:21.840 shot by a protester who was nearby, who was to 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:26.680 all everything we know so far, legally open carrying a rifle. UM. 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:30.360 He is the shooter. Um is in critical condition in 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:33.720 the hospital. UM. One of the people who was doing 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:37.240 traffic security that night is dead. UM. I believe at 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:39.000 least one is still in the hospital. The others have 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:42.959 been released. That's that's the the actual like, that's those 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:45.360 are the facts of the situation as they're known. The 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:49.480 protester who returned fire quickly afterwards turned themselves and their 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.679 rifle into the police. UM. You know, the police to 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:54.480 the stuff that they do in these instances, and then 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:59.280 released the person who had responded defensively to the shooting. 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.720 And that's where or we are right now. UM. Portland 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:05.600 police have been very cag and saying anything about this. 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:08.239 They have framed it as a clash between a homeowner 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:11.320 and protesters. UM. One thing we can say, based on 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:13.240 where this person came out of it does not appear 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:15.280 that they were a homeowner. Looks like they left a 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:18.120 would have been like a rental thing. Not that that 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:21.040 particularly matters, but it's interesting the framing with the police 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:25.000 are choosing to use here. UM. And yeah, there's there's 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.600 fairly little information as of right now, the name of 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:32.520 the shooter has not been released by the police. UM. 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.520 Neither has the name of the protester who responded UM 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:39.160 to the gunfire. But we do know, you know a 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:41.080 number of the people who were hit. We know the 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:46.240 person who has deceased. Avoid kind of spreading anything more 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:49.120 specific than that until there's there's evidence. There's not yet 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:51.160 video of this, although one of the people who was 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.280 there says they have a go pro that was taken 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.120 by the police that may have something. I don't know 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:59.960 the extent to which we will get that information. Again, 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:04.240 the police have been acting to uh kind of make 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.640 this look like a clash rather than what the evidence 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:10.640 that like reporters at OPB and the Portland Mercury and 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:14.440 even the Times have have found, the interviews they've conducted, UM, 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:16.640 it seems fair to say that this was a mass 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:21.520 shooting UM that was stopped by a protester, as opposed 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:25.320 to what I would call a clash YUM. But that's 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:27.919 that It's obvious Portland police aren't going to want that 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:31.040 narrative to come out very telling lee. The mayor of Portland, 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:34.200 Ted Wheeler, issued a statement where he talked about the 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:37.119 shooting as a piece of the city's ongoing gun crime, 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:38.880 did not mention the woman who was killed, did not 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:41.440 mention the injured, but expressed his sympathy with the police 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:47.560 for being so tired. Um, so you know that's Portland's Yeah, 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:49.440 I mean it's pretty sick and like you shouldn't like 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.200 it's not like dismissing it by saying it's Portland's saying 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.480 like this is like no, there's there's been growing rather 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:56.640 right from the city and people the past few years 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:00.880 that have basically been encouraging something like this to happen. Um, 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:03.240 and now that it has, it is also pretty sick 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.760 looking at different like media framing and police framing and 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:08.400 talking about it's a homeowner and how it was like, yeah, 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:10.640 it was like a clash, not like an outright attack 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:15.920 on people. Um. Yeah, so it's it's it's bad. It's 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:18.680 it's pretty gross. But what we can do right now 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:23.240 is support the people who were there. Yeah, they go 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:27.279 fund me for medical expences and you know, mental health 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.599 effects in thee because it's a bit some of the 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:34.400 wounded were themselves plugging up the bullet holes of other 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:36.919 wounded while they had also been shot. Because it was 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:38.960 a lot of the people doubled as medics or had 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:42.320 some sort of medical training. Um, there were medics who 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:45.000 were like threatened by police when they arrived on scene 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:48.919 for not being willing to stop providing um pressure to 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:51.599 a gunshot wound. Like a bunch of ugly stuff happened. 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.160 There's a mix of ugly stuff and like stuff that 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.000 seems ugly but it's pretty normal. Like the ambulance did 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:59.680 not move in immediately, which obviously people on scene were 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:03.680 very angry about. That is standard everywhere for like ambulances 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:06.359 at active shootings, and it's just I mean, it's not pleasant, 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:09.760 but it's also like they're not ever acting from as 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:12.279 much information as the people who were there maybe have. 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:14.599 I'm not I'm not gonna blame you know, e M 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.279 T S or whatnot for following s OP in this situation. 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:20.479 I will blame the police for their responses to stuff 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:23.680 like this obviously, and the fact that, um, you know, 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:28.680 it's it's unlikely that a satisfying police investigation will be conductive. 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:31.360 That said, it does seem like we already, based on 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:33.839 the early reporting that exists from again a number of 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.920 different news organizations, number of different local journalists, that we 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:41.560 have a pretty good idea of the basics of what happened. UM. 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:46.400 Obviously more will come out in addition to you know nothing, 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:50.600 but respect to the medics who responded, UM, I think 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:54.799 it's worth acknowledging that the protester who shot the shooter 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:59.000 UM seems to have, from the evidence we have handled 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:02.200 themselves as close to perfectly as you can in a 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:09.200 defensive shooting. UM. They stopped the threat, UM, they went 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:11.760 to the police, they turned in the rifle. They did not. 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:13.840 And there's a number of reasons for this, including the 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:16.560 fact that, like the last time there was a shooting 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:19.720 that was involved the left wing demonstrator, that person was 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:23.360 hunted down and killed by U. S. Marshals UM. But 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.400 it also I think helps when it comes to the 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:29.360 legal stuff that's going to wash out on this the investigation. 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:33.840 It really helps that this person dotted their eyes and 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:36.000 crossed their ties to make it very clear that this 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:41.800 was a UM A very like legal self defense situation. Obviously, 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:43.960 I think a lot of the folks who participate in 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:46.000 these things don't particularly care about the law one way 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:48.840 or the other. But in terms of how other people 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:52.160 see what has happened and what the fallout to this 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:58.360 is and maybe the degree to which people properly put 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:00.240 some blame on the city for this. I think it 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:03.520 is helpful that the person who responded UM with their 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:07.480 rifle to their shooting conducted themselves so carefully. So, I mean, 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:10.040 I have I have a lot of respect for everybody 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:11.960 on the ground. A lot of hard decisions had to 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:16.080 be made, UM, and it seems like in a a 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:19.280 the worst case scenario situation, the people who were on 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:23.000 the ground handled themselves UM with a tremendous amount of 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:28.080 thoughtfulness and encourage. I think that's everything. Yeah, I don't 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:30.800 think there's not nothing much else to say at this 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:34.280 moment right now, to safe, be careful, and again the 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:37.160 go fund me. Just type type go fund may stand 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:40.000 with Portland into Google. It will take you to the 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:48.040 go fund me UM and you can help folks out there. Hello, 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:53.160 welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison, and today 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:56.600 we're talking about two of my favorite things, which is 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:02.000 unions and coffee. UM. Joining me as a usual is 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:06.240 Chris and Sophie. What do you guys think about about 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:11.320 coffee and unions and the combination thereof big on unions 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:14.520 like that, like like making them like having them not 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:19.560 big on coffee. It's it's too bitter. I can't do it. Unbelievable. 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:24.800 Union's great coffee, great, Chris bad, Chris gets the wall. 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:30.760 It's the ultimate canceling. That is more intense. We are 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:33.959 coming down all the coffee issue. I don't ever tell 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:37.040 prop that. Don't ever talk prop. You don't like coffee. 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:40.480 I worry. Um and anyway to to join us to 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:47.760 discuss coffee and unions is a union organizer and uh 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:51.680 also someone with a podcast, so that's fun. Uh but 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:56.640 Kayleie Schuler, Hello, Hello, thank you so much for having me. 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:01.920 You know what they say about unioniced coffee, that's better, 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:03.960 It tastes better. That's yeah, that is that is that 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:07.240 is what I have heard, much better quality. That is true. 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:13.920 Maybe that's the problem that Chris has been having. Yeah, yeah, 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:16.360 that's the that's the thing. That's a Chris jumped to 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:20.040 jump to conclusions. But you failed, you failed to consider 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:24.920 the uh the coffee question. Um. Anyway, we're gonna be 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:29.440 talking about unions and coffee and Starbucks today because there's 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:34.040 been a massive wave of Starbucks uh location unionizations around 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:37.160 the country. And I like to start by kind of 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:41.640 discussing the origin of this like wave of unionization efforts 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:48.160 all across the states. Yeah. So, um, you know, I'll 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:51.880 just stay right off the bat like, um, legalities, logistics, 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:55.280 the nitty gritty is still not my forte and all 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:57.560 of this. UM. So I might not do the best 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:00.600 job explaining it, but I'm going to do my best, um, 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:04.680 and to get into the origin story of the whole movement. 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:07.040 I'm just gonna get into my origin story a little 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:10.920 bit um with this effort. So UM. I started working 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:15.480 at Starbucks last year, and uh, not long after, I 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:19.160 was approached by uh my fellow partner, my friend Tyler 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.360 de Geer, and he's also one of our committee members here, 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:24.920 and he was like, hey, did you hear about what 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:29.480 has happened in Buffalo? And as you guys probably know, uh, 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:33.679 Buffalo was the first to unionize um, and so he 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:36.080 was really excited about it. I was like, yeah, sounds cool. 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:39.040 Probably not my thing though, um and he was like, no, 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.840 it is, like, just let's talk about it. I was like, 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:45.520 all right, fine, we talked about it. I was like, oh, 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:48.200 this makes so much sense. We should definitely do this. 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:52.360 So um, as far as I know, this uh started 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:56.120 in Buffalo. They reached out to Workers United uh because 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:59.240 they knew that this was something they needed and wanted. UM. 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.320 And then when they successfully unionized, I mean, it just 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:07.520 sparked so much inspiration across the country and we hopped 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:13.960 on really quick. UM. Other locations in Boston also hopped 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:17.679 on not long after, and uh, yeah, it kind of 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:22.880 spread like wildfire. Yeah, it's been wonderful to watch the 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:28.040 kind of wave of of of attempts and in some cases, 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:30.960 like in a lot of cases of like successful attempts 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.360 just kind of take a you know, just go all 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:37.880 Like it's how fast they've been happening in so many 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:42.120 different places around around the country. UM, I'd like to 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:44.959 talk I like to talk about like why the Starbucks 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:49.400 unionization kind of effort is so important, Like why why 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:52.640 this is? Like of course, like unions are obviously like 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:57.280 generally a net good, but like why specifically is it's 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:00.480 is it important to unionize these Starbucks local shows? Like 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:04.080 what types of like UM issues is the unization trying 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.120 to kind of solve and give you know, workers better 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:12.439 conditions at these at these stores and cafes. So this 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:15.280 great question, And first I want to start by saying 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:19.520 Starbucks is a great place to work. I say that 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:23.360 all the time. I reap the benefits. There are benefits, 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:28.160 good ones. They pay minimum wage or whatever, like, the 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:32.800 pay is decent, We have benefits. It's really a lot 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:35.040 of people who work at our Starbucks day it's one 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:38.480 of the better jobs they've had. And we deserve a 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:42.760 union for It's I mean really, in my brain, it's 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:46.240 kind of akin to insurance. Right, you have it in 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:49.480 case you need it. If an emergency happens, you don't 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.280 have to pay the whole um e er bill out 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:56.520 of pocket. You've got some coverage coming from somewhere, right, That, 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:59.920 at least in my mind, is what this union is 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.440 for UM. That being said, we also just want to 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.680 obviously democratize our workplace. We want to have a spot 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:10.280 at the bargaining table because we you know, we have HR, 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:14.960 we have people to go to. But unions are partners 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:19.760 looking out for partners, and that's it. Starbucks looks out 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:25.160 for partners and profit. You know, it's a business. It's 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:28.360 a huge business. UM. So this would just give us 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:32.760 UM a stronger sense of empowerment. And uh again, I 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.120 really think of it kind of like insurance, it's just 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:41.000 us making sure we're taken care of at all times. Yeah, 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:44.080 what what type of kind of you know, whenever the 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:46.840 discussion of union's kind of starts at workplaces, there's always 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:50.160 like an element of like secrecy and you know, being 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:52.840 worried about you know, different types of suppression. So what 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:56.560 types of kind of things that people been doing when 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:58.800 the when the union is like trying to get trying 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:01.000 to get trying to get off the around to organize, 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.840 like like are people using like signal chats? Like what 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:08.080 what is what is like in this in these stores? 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:10.760 How is how are we trying to get more people 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:14.560 to like be comfortable with this idea and get like 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:19.880 get started with the organizing process. That's a really good question. 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:23.480 And we're still doing that work all the time. That 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:29.680 work doesn't really end, especially because um, it's commonly known 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.120 now so I don't feel as scared to say it. 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:35.760 But there are being there is union busting happening. It's 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:39.960 happening all the time. Um, and it's scary and it's intimidating, 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:44.760 and it's meant to be and it's effective, you know. So, Um, 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:48.520 we have a majority yes vote in my store I 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:52.560 already know that, but it also takes upkeep. It takes maintenance. Um, 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:55.280 it takes checking in with people and you know, for 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:57.600 my money, checking in and saying, hey, how are you 0:15:57.640 --> 0:15:59.840 feeling about this? Are you doing okay? Like I know 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.480 that this is scary. I know that you're hearing things 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.640 like do you have any questions? Um. It takes us 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:11.000 doing our due diligence and researching the things that they're saying. Um. 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:14.360 And yeah, I mean it's it's kind of a constant 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:16.800 thing as far as like technically how it's done. I 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:20.760 mean lots of group chats, just like, way too many 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:25.239 group chats. That that has been most of my experience 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:29.120 with most most political organizing in general is just way 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:32.880 way too many group chats. Yeah, in terms of like 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:37.680 what's Tucks is doing to start their like union busting response? 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:41.760 Is this website that they have launched? Yeah, I I 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:45.000 know you've I know you've tweeted about this, uh about 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.320 this site. So I would love to love to discuss it. Yeah, 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:50.760 I mean I just went off. I didn't really think 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:52.840 much of it, you know, I just I saw it 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:56.920 on there and just was like, this is lies. Um. 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:02.440 I mean, well, for one. I'm trying to remember everything 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:04.919 I've read and tweeted, but the one that's coming to 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:09.480 mind is when they say this may affect your relationship 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:13.639 with your store manager and it may make it difficult 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:19.480 for to me, that is that may depends entirely on 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:24.520 how much um, union busting Starbucks wants to do. If 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:28.200 you want to tell our store managers that this will 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:30.879 negatively impact our relationship with them, if that's how you 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:35.080 want to frame it, then yeah, I probably will. Um. 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:39.080 If you if you want to make it more difficult 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:44.560 by not negotiating the contract easily with us, um, yeah, 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.960 then that might happen. It's not that's not a union problem. 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:52.000 That's a Starbucks problem that they are framing as a 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:56.600 union problem. Um yeah, I can't. What were the other 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:01.240 things that I common it on. I just like to 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:03.600 also explain, like what the site is and what it's 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:06.879 like trying to do. Oh sure, yeah, I mean it's 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:13.640 it's um, it's union investing. It's uh, it's giving it's 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:17.159 giving partners the facts that they need to know, you know, like, 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:19.800 it's it's we want to make sure that you are 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:23.280 informed before you vote. Know, Um, that's what that is. Yeah, 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:27.560 it's this like sleekily designed page that has a list 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:33.040 of facts about about organizing and all the reasons why 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:37.000 it's going to negatively represent, negatively affect your relationship with 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:42.440 the Starbucks Corporation. Oh, this was one of the points. Said, Um, 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:44.679 the union may not negotiate for some things you are 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.800 hoping for, and some things you value now might go away. 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:53.679 That is so ridiculous. That's a threat. Yeah, that's a 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:56.879 threat that your well being will be changed, Like we 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.840 might not negotiate this contract ry nicely with you. That 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:04.440 it the union is us. They love to talk about 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:07.040 the third party and oh, your your store manager is 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:09.600 gonna have to work with a steward. The steward is 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:12.800 going to be someone who already works in the store. Yes, 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:17.520 the steward is us. The union is us. Why would 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:23.800 we negotiate a contract that doesn't benefit us. That's so silly, 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:27.800 it's it's it's it's very typical union besting kind of behavior. 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:30.720 And if you know, if they can just if this 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:33.600 type of propaganda, you know, can just convince a few 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:36.359 people and and and scare and scare only only a 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:38.120 couple of the people that will be enough to kind 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:41.440 of cause division and shutdown efforts in the store. Right, 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:43.600 So that's that's that's all that their goal is is 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:46.320 to prevent you know, at least one more store from 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:48.719 not doing it. That's like as long as they do that, 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:52.280 then it's then then then it's like successful. Um. Absolutely, 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:53.919 And you know, based on how many people work at 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:58.000 an individual, individual store, that's not entirely unlikely, right is 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:02.280 it'll you know, it will, like you you, union busting 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:05.520 efforts do work in a lot of cases, and that's 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:10.840 why they still do them. Absolutely absolutely, yeah, And that's 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:14.840 why it's it's really important for UM. You know, if 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:18.520 there are any partners listening to this, UM. And partners, 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:20.760 by the way, is what you know we call ourselves 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:29.120 at Starbucks. UM. The the social aspect of this within 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:32.280 your store, the checking in with your partners and seeing 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:35.680 how they're feeling about it, and having UM as many 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:38.440 face to face conversations as you can have and really 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:42.160 really sticking by each other is really important because yeah, 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:45.720 like I said, these UM tactics are tried and true, 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:50.960 they're effective, they're intimidating, UM, and so you have to 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:54.080 really support each other through that and keep reminding each 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:56.919 other like, no, there's a reason we're doing this. This, 0:20:57.040 --> 0:20:59.359 this is actually still a good thing, you know, because 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:03.480 top of our jobs, and then a lot of partners 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:06.720 are in school or they have families, Like we already 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:08.399 have a lot going on, and then we have to 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:13.080 go into work and be reminded that our desire for 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:18.160 a union is not valuable to Starbucks and so they're 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:22.240 going to make things harder by doing all the things 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:25.920 they're doing. Um, you have to really really be there 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:28.960 for each other through this process. Yeah, I mean that's, 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:32.320 you know, solidarity, one of the key of the key 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:34.840 tenants of this type of you know, the type of organizing. 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:39.440 I know, Chris is a pretty big union appreciator. I mean, 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:45.280 I I like unions, but but Chris, Chris really really, 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:49.040 really really enjoy So I'm wondering if you if you 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:53.160 have anything he likes them so much, he'll He'll even 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:56.800 like unionized coffee. He'll be like this coffee still, it 0:21:56.840 --> 0:22:01.520 will it will good work. Chris love the some of 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:03.720 the there's some stores in Chicago that are unionizing, and 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:06.480 I'm like, hmmm, maybe maybe we should check them out. Yeah, 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:08.560 you should at least at least check about and say 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:12.119 like hi, it'd be like, yeah, great, what's a great 0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:15.480 thing to do. Um, definitely go to those stores, go 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:18.800 up to the counter and offer you or um, order 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:21.920 your coffee, and then ask them to write like unions 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:27.159 strong or we love unions as your name. Um, because 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:29.560 when the baristas are making the coffee and they still 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:33.520 like see that sticker come through, it's we really love that, Chris. 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:39.720 They have great tea there too, ice cream. Yeah, the tea, 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:44.080 it's really good, or the chi Like listen, I'm saying 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:49.119 information though about like, yeah we have there's finally a 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:51.960 store that's like somewhat near Los Angeles where I am 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:54.480 that that is announced that they're unionizing, which is exciting, 0:22:54.560 --> 0:22:57.840 like okay, California, way to join the party late, but 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:03.920 you know it's it's cool ahead. Yeah. One thing I'm 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:08.960 interested in is how how big is the shop, Like 0:23:08.680 --> 0:23:12.919 how many people are are sort of like well, I'm 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:15.720 not not just like like just how many people there 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:20.600 like could potentially join the union, I mean anyone could. 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:24.960 I think we have about twenty. I could be so wrong, 0:23:25.040 --> 0:23:27.640 but I think we have around twenty partners in our 0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:32.439 store right now. Um and yeah, any well, yeah, just 0:23:32.480 --> 0:23:37.520 about anybody could join that, not anyone who's salaried. Yeah, okay, 0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:40.560 but I mean that seems that seems pretty common across 0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:43.399 all the different stores. Is around that it's around like 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:47.920 twenty union eligible people per location. Seems roughly accurate based 0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:50.440 on the stuff I've seen from you know, Seattle to 0:23:50.480 --> 0:23:54.040 Philadelphia to Boston to Buffalo too, you know, all all 0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:57.520 places in between. And yeah, so part part of part 0:23:57.520 --> 0:24:01.960 of like the actual more organizational structure is a linked 0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:04.600 to Work as United. Yes, part of the part of 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:09.720 the Service Employees International Union UM affiliate kind of a 0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:13.680 family of unions UM who's kind of led the led 0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:16.200 the campaign or you know, has been part of the 0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:20.480 campaign UM to unionize the you know, thousands of locations 0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:25.200 through the States, and yeah, I think around like eighty locations, 0:24:25.240 --> 0:24:28.679 including two of the company's flagship ones inside Seattle and 0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:32.240 New York, have have joined this this effort. And it 0:24:32.320 --> 0:24:35.760 does seem like every day there's like more stores popping up. 0:24:35.760 --> 0:24:38.520 Who are who are who are saying yeah, this is 0:24:38.560 --> 0:24:41.919 a good idea. This is whether it be to you know, 0:24:42.280 --> 0:24:45.520 be like, yeah, some of our equipment is old, and 0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:48.240 it's like, you know, it causes like keep burns because 0:24:48.280 --> 0:24:51.800 it's not like maintenance properly or being like, yeah, there's 0:24:51.840 --> 0:24:55.360 a lot of like sexual harassment caused by like some 0:24:55.480 --> 0:24:58.160 like some like patrons that never gets addressed by management. 0:24:59.000 --> 0:25:01.919 Um and or you know saying like yeah, I may 0:25:01.920 --> 0:25:03.879 be deserved to be paid more than fifteen dollars an 0:25:03.920 --> 0:25:07.679 hour UM. With rent being you know as high as 0:25:07.880 --> 0:25:10.200 as high as it is, maybe we should be paying 0:25:10.240 --> 0:25:12.720 over twenty bucks an hour. I don't know how everybody 0:25:12.720 --> 0:25:16.359 else is doing, but my rent situation is interesting. So 0:25:17.000 --> 0:25:21.600 rent has been ballooning in recent in recent months even 0:25:21.800 --> 0:25:23.639 it's been it's been really going up, which I mean, 0:25:23.680 --> 0:25:25.720 I'm sure we'll talk about it at some point on 0:25:25.760 --> 0:25:27.800 the show here, but yeah, like there's a lot of 0:25:27.840 --> 0:25:30.080 there's a lot of issues that ares being like, yeah, 0:25:30.280 --> 0:25:32.880 maybe people should be paid more, people should be at 0:25:32.880 --> 0:25:35.000 the bargaining table. There's a lot of things to address 0:25:35.040 --> 0:25:37.080 to make it a safer workplace, to make it a 0:25:37.080 --> 0:25:42.360 workplace where you're more respected. Um. And it's uh, it's 0:25:42.359 --> 0:25:45.800 really nice to see people saying, yeah, I'm not gonna 0:25:45.880 --> 0:25:47.959 put up with the city more and we can do 0:25:48.000 --> 0:25:50.600 something about it, because like there are mechanisms to to 0:25:50.720 --> 0:25:53.800 do this right, that's why it's happening. So that's that's 0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:58.040 very uh, very exciting to see is taking place. It 0:25:58.160 --> 0:26:01.000 really is, and it you know, you make a lot 0:26:01.040 --> 0:26:03.680 of great points and bring up a lot of the 0:26:03.720 --> 0:26:08.679 benefits of having a union, and its just like it 0:26:08.760 --> 0:26:15.320 just surprises me how anti union Starbucks is is period um, 0:26:15.440 --> 0:26:19.240 because it's just it's like, I don't know, you, Yeah, 0:26:19.280 --> 0:26:21.119 you paint such a beautiful picture, because it is a 0:26:21.119 --> 0:26:25.160 beautiful picture to have autonomy and um, respect and empowerment 0:26:25.160 --> 0:26:29.600 in the workplace. You know, they they train us to 0:26:29.760 --> 0:26:32.840 work through the lens of humanity, you know, by their 0:26:32.880 --> 0:26:36.919 words and U it's pretty humane to let people have 0:26:37.000 --> 0:26:41.120 a say, a real stay in the workplace, you know. Yeah, 0:26:41.160 --> 0:26:43.760 I think it kind of exposes that type of you know, 0:26:44.800 --> 0:26:50.680 pretty pretty corporate language, that formative. Yeah, exactly. It's um, 0:26:50.920 --> 0:26:53.520 I am interested in like the other like kind of 0:26:53.640 --> 0:26:57.000 union busting or soft union busting kind of stuff going 0:26:57.040 --> 0:26:59.520 on even like before this website in terms of how 0:26:59.640 --> 0:27:04.000 like man like how like management has been responding, um 0:27:04.200 --> 0:27:06.240 and how more like like what like what like the 0:27:06.280 --> 0:27:09.720 local responses to wind stores start talking about this, Yeah, 0:27:09.800 --> 0:27:13.080 And and another fall up to that is I noticed 0:27:13.080 --> 0:27:16.399 that COVID was mentioned on this on this website. Is 0:27:16.440 --> 0:27:20.040 that being brought up within union busting at all or 0:27:20.160 --> 0:27:22.720 is that brought I just it was like a huge 0:27:22.720 --> 0:27:25.239 red flag for me that they used like, well, we 0:27:25.280 --> 0:27:31.480 helped you during COVID, we were there for you, which 0:27:31.600 --> 0:27:35.720 really did not. That's like that's like that's like that's 0:27:35.760 --> 0:27:39.919 like abusive terminology. That is pretty manipulative to be like 0:27:40.080 --> 0:27:44.080 we we helped you during a pandemic. It's it's like, well, yes, 0:27:45.119 --> 0:27:47.840 as you should, because yeah, you're the place where I 0:27:47.920 --> 0:27:50.440 was employed. I give something to you, you give something 0:27:50.480 --> 0:27:53.679 to me. And yeah, and as I Twitter ranted in 0:27:53.720 --> 0:27:57.399 the comment, you know, like with peace and love. We 0:27:57.440 --> 0:28:00.320 had to beg to get our cafe closed out like 0:28:00.440 --> 0:28:04.600 we we Like, it wasn't like we just uh cases 0:28:04.720 --> 0:28:06.560 rose and they came in said, hey guys, we're gonna 0:28:06.560 --> 0:28:10.080 close it like we had. We were calling and um 0:28:10.119 --> 0:28:14.720 making a stink and I mean we were talking about striking, 0:28:14.760 --> 0:28:17.240 but then remembered we're not unionized yet we didn't, but 0:28:17.840 --> 0:28:21.360 uh yeah, I mean it was we Yeah, we were 0:28:21.359 --> 0:28:24.439 really fed up. Um people sitting in there for hours 0:28:24.480 --> 0:28:27.840 with their faces out, you know, as cases were rising. 0:28:27.960 --> 0:28:34.879 So UM, Yeah, great point. That's really pretty manipulative, because 0:28:34.960 --> 0:28:39.920 like you should be helping us through covid. UM. That's 0:28:39.960 --> 0:28:46.320 not like a that's not a benefit, that's just that's like, yeah, 0:28:47.200 --> 0:28:50.600 it's not killing people. It's like should should be something 0:28:50.680 --> 0:28:54.880 that's just kind of always there. Shouldn't shouldn't be an extra, 0:28:55.680 --> 0:28:59.760 you know. Yeah. And I mean as far as UM, 0:28:59.800 --> 0:29:03.720 you a sort of local UM interference, I guess I'll 0:29:03.760 --> 0:29:08.680 say UM, I do want to say UM. In my case, 0:29:08.800 --> 0:29:12.840 our store manager, UM, I really care about her. UM. 0:29:12.880 --> 0:29:15.680 I have a great working relationship with her. I really 0:29:15.680 --> 0:29:19.480 respect her. She's done a lot of good for our store. UM, 0:29:20.040 --> 0:29:24.480 and she's really just doing the best she can having 0:29:24.520 --> 0:29:30.160 conversations with us. UM. She has her opinions and feelings 0:29:30.200 --> 0:29:31.880 about it, and I just try to listen to them, 0:29:31.880 --> 0:29:36.120 and she listens to mine. UM. But there definitely Yeah, 0:29:36.200 --> 0:29:39.240 I mean as soon as we filed for an election, 0:29:39.360 --> 0:29:42.440 we started actually as soon as we started organizing, and 0:29:42.480 --> 0:29:48.400 they sort of caught wind. UM. We started having barista meetings, 0:29:49.520 --> 0:29:53.640 which are as vague as they sound, UM, And people 0:29:53.640 --> 0:29:56.120 who had worked there longer than me said, we've never 0:29:56.160 --> 0:30:01.560 had these before. UM. Maybe once you know and if years. Um, 0:30:01.600 --> 0:30:05.040 So we started having all these meetings and not even 0:30:05.120 --> 0:30:07.120 talking about the union at first, but all of a 0:30:07.160 --> 0:30:11.600 sudden they wanted to hear from us and fix things 0:30:11.640 --> 0:30:14.440 in the store and and all this stuff and be 0:30:14.560 --> 0:30:17.800 super helpful and present. And then there definitely just was 0:30:17.840 --> 0:30:21.760 a heightened corporate presence in the store. Um, people we've 0:30:21.800 --> 0:30:24.360 never seen before coming in, like, hey, how are you doing? 0:30:24.560 --> 0:30:27.480 Want to talk? It's like, no, you're a stranger. I 0:30:27.520 --> 0:30:32.200 don't how to talk to you. Um. So that was weird. Um, 0:30:32.280 --> 0:30:36.960 but yeah, yeah, there's there's definitely definitely just a shift 0:30:37.000 --> 0:30:42.160 in presence. Um. Again, any of these meetings and um, yeah, 0:30:42.200 --> 0:30:47.760 it's been interesting. What what do you kind of how 0:30:47.800 --> 0:30:50.400 do you see like the situation resolving? Like do you 0:30:50.440 --> 0:30:53.480 do you like how how like do you have has 0:30:53.840 --> 0:30:56.920 also like yeah, what's like the state of of of 0:30:57.000 --> 0:31:03.480 your stores specifically? Yeah, so we are on our way 0:31:03.800 --> 0:31:09.840 to an election. Um, we've requested an election. Uh so 0:31:10.720 --> 0:31:13.880 we're really just like in a waiting period for that. 0:31:14.000 --> 0:31:19.320 We don't know exactly when it's gonna be. We've heard soon, um, 0:31:19.440 --> 0:31:25.160 but who knows when that is? Um. We yeah, we 0:31:25.240 --> 0:31:28.520 have some we we had to do a zoom hearing 0:31:29.560 --> 0:31:32.880 for some of the legalities for things here in Massachusetts. 0:31:33.240 --> 0:31:35.720 That was interesting. But yeah, so we're we're just waiting 0:31:35.760 --> 0:31:38.040 for the election at this point. And the election is 0:31:38.080 --> 0:31:40.960 what will uh you know, that's when we're gonna cast 0:31:40.960 --> 0:31:44.080 our yes or no vote UM, and we will find 0:31:44.120 --> 0:31:47.680 out whether or not we're gonna unionize. And I think 0:31:47.680 --> 0:31:52.680 we will unionize. It's looking that way. I'm confident, UM, 0:31:53.120 --> 0:31:59.160 and I really look forward to that. What do you think, UM, Like, 0:32:00.280 --> 0:32:03.520 what do you see as happening after the vote is done, like, like, 0:32:03.760 --> 0:32:06.200 assuming it is a vote yes, Like, how do you 0:32:06.200 --> 0:32:10.400 think this will impact UM working at the store going forward? 0:32:12.160 --> 0:32:16.480 It's gonna be interesting and it's going to be an adjustment, 0:32:16.560 --> 0:32:19.560 right because from the time that we vote and we 0:32:19.640 --> 0:32:21.840 vote yes, Let's say we vote yes and we're going 0:32:21.880 --> 0:32:26.080 to unionize, there is it could take a long time. 0:32:26.480 --> 0:32:28.480 It could take a year. We don't know. It could 0:32:28.480 --> 0:32:31.920 take more and less UM to get from that vote 0:32:32.320 --> 0:32:35.080 to you know, what we refer to as the bargaining 0:32:35.120 --> 0:32:41.040 table UM to negotiating a contract with Starbucks UM. And 0:32:41.120 --> 0:32:45.239 in that time there are things UM. And again, if 0:32:45.280 --> 0:32:47.560 partners are listening, you can do your research on this 0:32:47.880 --> 0:32:51.720 on the n l r B website. UM there. You 0:32:51.760 --> 0:32:55.880 know there are things that will be UM different in 0:32:55.920 --> 0:33:00.040 that waiting period. Right, So, if if Starbucks decides to 0:33:00.080 --> 0:33:05.360 release um a nationwide UM Spring raise, because why not 0:33:05.640 --> 0:33:09.360 we love giving you raises, UM, we would be exempt 0:33:09.440 --> 0:33:12.400 from that because we're in negotiations. Because we're in this 0:33:12.480 --> 0:33:16.440 sort of in between spot. Um there, there are little 0:33:16.600 --> 0:33:20.120 weird things that we might have to just be aware 0:33:20.120 --> 0:33:23.800 of no going in UM in that sort of interim. 0:33:24.480 --> 0:33:28.360 Uh yeah, and then eventually, you know, those raises and 0:33:28.640 --> 0:33:30.719 any other things that we've sort of been waiting on 0:33:30.880 --> 0:33:34.240 get brought to the bargaining table. Yeah. I think this 0:33:34.280 --> 0:33:37.600 is an important thing for people to understand when when 0:33:37.600 --> 0:33:39.880 you're doing union organizing, right is you know you have 0:33:39.920 --> 0:33:42.160 this giant push and you have like you have to 0:33:42.200 --> 0:33:44.040 have the push to get to get either recognition or 0:33:44.080 --> 0:33:47.920 to get those the National Labor Relations Board vote. But 0:33:49.080 --> 0:33:52.920 most unions that go under go under in like before 0:33:52.920 --> 0:33:56.240 the first contract, and you have to like that's that's 0:33:56.240 --> 0:33:58.120 something that you know when when you when you talk 0:33:58.120 --> 0:34:01.080 to people who who are the professionally you can't union organizers, 0:34:01.120 --> 0:34:04.479 they talk they talk about this constantly, just like you 0:34:04.520 --> 0:34:07.840 have to hold it together during during that period between 0:34:08.000 --> 0:34:10.160 your first like bet, between when you when you're when 0:34:10.200 --> 0:34:13.000 when you get recognized it when your vote ends that 0:34:13.080 --> 0:34:16.600 first contract. And it's hard in a lot of ways. Yeah, 0:34:16.600 --> 0:34:18.560 because the things we're talking about, like management will do 0:34:19.239 --> 0:34:21.840 you know, they'll they'll intensify the union busting because they're 0:34:21.920 --> 0:34:24.200 hoping the union will still fall apart. But if you 0:34:24.239 --> 0:34:26.760 hold it together and if you get that first contract 0:34:27.080 --> 0:34:29.319 your union, like you know, you you now have a 0:34:29.440 --> 0:34:33.239 union and you've basically stabilized and at that point, like 0:34:33.480 --> 0:34:35.000 you now have a seat at the table and you 0:34:35.000 --> 0:34:37.560 have to take your seat the table and fight. Yeah, 0:34:37.719 --> 0:34:42.440 but it's a big responsibility when when you say hold 0:34:42.480 --> 0:34:46.520 it together during that time, do you do you mean, like, um, 0:34:46.600 --> 0:34:49.919 just through those changes and that interim and that sort 0:34:49.960 --> 0:34:52.960 of weird awkward phase, like you have to like just 0:34:53.000 --> 0:34:55.400 hold it together like mentally and just kind of power 0:34:55.480 --> 0:34:58.799 through it. Yeah. Well, also I mean you have to, 0:34:58.960 --> 0:35:01.200 like you have to just keep making sure everyone's involved, 0:35:01.640 --> 0:35:06.279 which is something that's difficult because especially after sort of 0:35:06.280 --> 0:35:10.279 the initially people because people have also had like a 0:35:10.360 --> 0:35:13.080 job to do it this entire time, right, they're still 0:35:13.120 --> 0:35:16.160 they're still making coffee, they're still making the podcast, they're 0:35:16.160 --> 0:35:20.600 still doing whatever, So you still have whatever. Have you 0:35:20.640 --> 0:35:22.759 ever done? This is sort of beside the point, but 0:35:22.840 --> 0:35:25.920 it's fun. Have you guys ever done like the sixteen 0:35:26.000 --> 0:35:31.560 personalities personality assessment? At some point? I've never done it. 0:35:31.560 --> 0:35:34.120 It's really fun. I just did it for school, and 0:35:35.480 --> 0:35:37.360 it's the thing that tells you, like, I'm an i 0:35:37.600 --> 0:35:43.720 n f J TV and my thing is the advocate. Sophie, 0:35:43.719 --> 0:35:46.160 what's yours? You look like you had one ready to go. 0:35:46.360 --> 0:35:48.359 I don't remember what it was, but I remember having 0:35:48.360 --> 0:35:52.160 to do it like fifteen times in school. Yeah. I also, 0:35:52.320 --> 0:35:54.879 I also forget what I the one that I did 0:35:54.920 --> 0:35:57.360 for when I was in school as well. But I 0:35:58.000 --> 0:36:00.319 brought it up because I'm thinking I want to send 0:36:00.360 --> 0:36:03.960 it to my fellow organizers and be like, do this 0:36:04.040 --> 0:36:07.240 and we can sort of highlight what each other's strengths 0:36:07.239 --> 0:36:11.120 are um and start playing into those because, like you 0:36:11.160 --> 0:36:14.200 were saying, Chris, like it really is a team effort, 0:36:14.520 --> 0:36:16.960 and I think it only really works if you are 0:36:17.280 --> 0:36:22.239 utilizing people and respecting people's strengths, you know, because not 0:36:22.320 --> 0:36:25.480 everyone has the same strengths. Like, yeah, you might be 0:36:25.560 --> 0:36:29.399 a kick as graphic designer. But like not everyone can 0:36:29.440 --> 0:36:33.680 do that. You know, maybe they're better at hosting get togethers, 0:36:33.760 --> 0:36:37.560 or they're better at writing emails or whatever. You know. 0:36:38.120 --> 0:36:40.560 I think, yeah, playing to strengths is so important in 0:36:40.600 --> 0:36:43.359 the long run because yeah, it can take a year 0:36:43.520 --> 0:36:47.000 to get to the negotiating table, which which like is horrible, 0:36:47.120 --> 0:36:49.480 Like that shouldn't be like it should it shouldn't be 0:36:49.520 --> 0:36:54.439 that long. Um And you know, tactics such as like specifically, 0:36:54.880 --> 0:36:58.520 you know, raising wages around a unionization effort so that 0:36:58.560 --> 0:37:00.640 people in the union don't get it. That is like 0:37:00.680 --> 0:37:03.759 another form of union investing. Like that is like like 0:37:03.880 --> 0:37:06.799 I don't think they haven't thought that through, Like that 0:37:06.920 --> 0:37:09.520 is that is part of that whole process being like 0:37:09.960 --> 0:37:12.759 oh yeah you could have a union or you can 0:37:12.840 --> 0:37:15.799 get higher wages now, Like that's like, that's that is 0:37:15.920 --> 0:37:18.359 part of what's going on. It's because they want people 0:37:18.360 --> 0:37:21.359 to not sign on to have long term benefits, so 0:37:21.360 --> 0:37:24.480 they're gonna offer these short term benefits. So like it 0:37:24.560 --> 0:37:28.480 really is like because of how elongated the unionization process 0:37:28.760 --> 0:37:30.719 can be, it gives a lot of time for people 0:37:30.719 --> 0:37:34.560 to get burnt out. Um And and combating that like 0:37:34.719 --> 0:37:37.840 combating being burnt out is one of the most important parts. 0:37:37.880 --> 0:37:41.560 And yeah, it's it's really it's really challenging sometimes. Oh 0:37:41.600 --> 0:37:46.399 my gosh, absolutely, I mean I love that conversation. I'm 0:37:46.440 --> 0:37:50.919 like a mental health dweeb. Um, it's it's my it's 0:37:50.960 --> 0:37:53.719 what my my podcast is called Your Messy Friend, and 0:37:54.080 --> 0:37:57.399 that's basically all I talk about is mental health. And yeah, 0:37:57.440 --> 0:38:01.160 the burnout, I mean, I'm recovering for burnout right now. 0:38:01.560 --> 0:38:05.359 You know, Um, it's very real. You have to make 0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:08.360 sure that you know, while you're taking care of everybody 0:38:08.400 --> 0:38:11.080 else and making these efforts, like you have to make 0:38:11.120 --> 0:38:14.560 sure that you are checking with yourself every day and 0:38:14.719 --> 0:38:18.399 making sure your needs are being met because giving from 0:38:18.440 --> 0:38:22.960 an empty tank does not last long. As I'm sure 0:38:23.040 --> 0:38:26.359 you guys know. Yeah, if you uh, if if you're, 0:38:26.400 --> 0:38:30.279 if you're, if the water in your espresso machine is out, 0:38:30.400 --> 0:38:38.239 then nothing can flow through to make this for you exactly. See. 0:38:38.400 --> 0:38:42.239 It was what an amazingly crafted metaphor. I just not 0:38:42.440 --> 0:38:47.680 tortured it at all anyway. So what is the like 0:38:47.800 --> 0:38:50.440 turnover rate at the store? Like, like, how how quickly 0:38:50.440 --> 0:38:53.719 are people coming in and out of jobs? And how 0:38:53.719 --> 0:39:01.319 has that been affecting organizing. The cool question. Um, we 0:39:01.400 --> 0:39:05.400 haven't had a ton of people leave since I got there, 0:39:05.440 --> 0:39:10.000 I mean, and I definitely I can pretty confidently say 0:39:10.120 --> 0:39:13.920 none of those had to do with unionizing. Um, it 0:39:14.040 --> 0:39:17.560 was all for just like different reasons. Um, we've had 0:39:19.200 --> 0:39:21.400 quite a few more people come in recently, and I 0:39:21.440 --> 0:39:24.240 would say that, Um. I mean it's it's weird because 0:39:24.680 --> 0:39:30.760 our current store manager, uh was great. She was hired 0:39:31.600 --> 0:39:34.719 around the same time that we really started amping up 0:39:35.400 --> 0:39:39.719 union stuff. And you know, it's almost unfortunate because I 0:39:39.719 --> 0:39:43.840 think she thought it was it was about her and 0:39:43.880 --> 0:39:47.080 it just so wasn't you know. Um. But yeah, so 0:39:47.280 --> 0:39:50.040 it's who knows if it was just because she was 0:39:50.120 --> 0:39:53.000 there now or because of the union stuff or both. 0:39:53.040 --> 0:39:57.840 But uh, they did start hiring quite a few more people, um, 0:39:57.880 --> 0:40:00.080 around the time that we started organizing, And yeah, I 0:40:00.120 --> 0:40:02.920 mean it's you have to walk this fine line when 0:40:02.920 --> 0:40:05.120 you have new people coming in. Of course, you want 0:40:05.120 --> 0:40:08.719 to get to them and give them your info um 0:40:08.840 --> 0:40:12.480 or at least give them resources to look into before 0:40:12.560 --> 0:40:16.239 corporate gets to them. UM. But then you also they're 0:40:16.280 --> 0:40:20.960 they're learning a new job. It's really fast paced and overwhelming, 0:40:21.880 --> 0:40:24.640 Like you have to be careful not to totally overwhelm 0:40:24.719 --> 0:40:30.160 them either. I mean that that's really something I've just 0:40:30.200 --> 0:40:32.279 tried to keep in mind throughout the whole process. Is 0:40:32.320 --> 0:40:37.399 like when my friend Tyler approached me, I was like, 0:40:38.040 --> 0:40:41.000 I don't know what this is. I don't I don't 0:40:41.000 --> 0:40:43.680 know if this is necessary for me. And now I'm 0:40:43.719 --> 0:40:48.319 on the committee, you know, so you know what I mean. Like, 0:40:48.360 --> 0:40:50.399 it's that thing where I'm like, Okay, if I could 0:40:50.480 --> 0:41:00.600 be convinced, maybe anyone can. All right, is there um 0:41:00.640 --> 0:41:04.600 any direct action that people who are listening or any 0:41:04.640 --> 0:41:07.120 call to action you have for us that we can 0:41:07.680 --> 0:41:10.200 prot to our listeners or links or anything that you 0:41:10.440 --> 0:41:13.759 think would be useful for our people to know. That's 0:41:13.760 --> 0:41:17.160 a cool idea. Yeah, thanks. Um. Like we mentioned before, 0:41:17.320 --> 0:41:19.920 if you want to just like stop by your local 0:41:20.200 --> 0:41:24.560 unionizing Starbucks and get a coffee with the name, you know, 0:41:24.800 --> 0:41:28.680 unionized or union strong. That like that in person support, 0:41:29.360 --> 0:41:34.360 especially when your first organizing, is really really helpful. Even 0:41:34.400 --> 0:41:38.080 just stopping by to drop off a card or say hey, 0:41:38.120 --> 0:41:43.240 good luck with unionizing. Um, that really means a lot. Um. 0:41:43.320 --> 0:41:49.520 You can follow SB Workers United on Instagram and Twitter 0:41:49.640 --> 0:41:53.160 and just engage with us UM reach out if you 0:41:53.880 --> 0:41:58.000 need info about how to organize the people on Instagram 0:41:58.080 --> 0:42:00.360 or so, I mean on all the platforms are just 0:42:00.400 --> 0:42:07.520 like so on top of responding UM and uh, website. 0:42:07.560 --> 0:42:11.600 I think we have a website, I would assume, so 0:42:12.440 --> 0:42:14.400 I would assume at this point. Yeah, I mean, we 0:42:14.440 --> 0:42:19.560 have a pretty pop in Instagram and Twitter, but UM, yeah, 0:42:19.640 --> 0:42:22.200 I don't. I don't think I'm forgetting anything. I think 0:42:22.280 --> 0:42:26.080 that's that's about it. UM, and just making noise on 0:42:26.080 --> 0:42:29.359 online is also really helpful. You know, I love when 0:42:29.360 --> 0:42:32.680 people comment on Starbucks posts and they're like, yeah, how 0:42:32.680 --> 0:42:38.800 about unions though, yeah union. The website is s B 0:42:39.080 --> 0:42:45.480 workers United dot org affiliated with the Workers United and 0:42:45.560 --> 0:42:48.439 the Starbucks. You know, I think effort, which has ways 0:42:48.480 --> 0:42:51.640 to donate or by by merch in support of the 0:42:51.719 --> 0:42:53.880 union and that kind of stuff, which funds I'll go 0:42:53.920 --> 0:42:56.879 to the go to the campaign and you know, just 0:42:57.120 --> 0:42:59.840 in case it wasn't clear, like and this is something 0:43:00.400 --> 0:43:02.480 you'll hear from Starbucks. Is all of this about the 0:43:02.520 --> 0:43:04.960 third party and Workers United is going to do this 0:43:05.000 --> 0:43:10.960 and that, blah blah blah. We essentially, you know, we 0:43:11.080 --> 0:43:13.680 work with that they promote our cause you know what 0:43:13.760 --> 0:43:17.080 I mean, they're here to support our mission and our goals. 0:43:17.440 --> 0:43:21.120 I mean, you'd be amazed by how much partners do 0:43:21.360 --> 0:43:25.799 for this, you know, united so much. But we we 0:43:25.920 --> 0:43:29.439 do the nitty gritty every day, communicating with each other. 0:43:29.480 --> 0:43:32.680 We're communicating nationally now we have a platform for that. 0:43:33.280 --> 0:43:37.439 Um and yeah, it's really cool and so like they are, 0:43:38.000 --> 0:43:41.520 they're kind of like, I don't know, the supporting beams 0:43:41.600 --> 0:43:44.480 of of everything we're doing, you know, it's us, yeah, 0:43:44.520 --> 0:43:46.640 but like the actual makeup of it definitely is with 0:43:46.680 --> 0:43:49.759 Starbucks employees, you know, and all the people I've been 0:43:49.760 --> 0:43:52.279 in like Twitter conversations with our d m s who 0:43:52.320 --> 0:43:54.880 are involved. It's like, yeah, like everyone who's like actively 0:43:54.960 --> 0:43:57.800 involved in doing it all has worked in a Starbucks before, 0:43:58.040 --> 0:44:00.200 um and still and still are like it is. It 0:44:00.280 --> 0:44:04.399 is definitely being led by the workers. Um and yeah, 0:44:04.520 --> 0:44:07.719 that's really great and really crucial. Um. Do you have 0:44:07.760 --> 0:44:11.279 any do you have any other plugables either for yourself 0:44:11.400 --> 0:44:17.880 or for yeah, anything else plug your Yeah, thanks guys, Um, 0:44:17.920 --> 0:44:20.160 this was really fun. Thank you for having me on. 0:44:21.080 --> 0:44:25.640 I love podcasting. UM. So yeah, I mentioned sp Workers 0:44:25.719 --> 0:44:29.399 United on Instagram and Twitter. Make sure you give them 0:44:29.400 --> 0:44:33.359 a follow, follow Barista's you find along the way. Who 0:44:33.360 --> 0:44:37.640 are you know speaking up about this? Show them your support. Um, 0:44:37.719 --> 0:44:41.319 my podcast is called your Messy Friend. You can find me. 0:44:42.120 --> 0:44:46.160 I think wherever you get your podcasts, definitely Spotify that's 0:44:46.160 --> 0:44:51.399 what I use. UM and yeah that's about it. Well, 0:44:51.440 --> 0:44:55.160 thank you so much Kayleie for joining us today. You 0:44:55.160 --> 0:44:59.840 talked about Starbucks and unions. UM, follow us online on Twitter, Instagram, 0:44:59.840 --> 0:45:02.960 at Happened Here pod and cool Zone Media and I 0:45:02.960 --> 0:45:04.839 think that does it? Does it for us? I can't 0:45:04.840 --> 0:45:08.040 wait for y'all to win. Yeah, absolutely can't. Can't. Can't 0:45:08.040 --> 0:45:10.120 wait for you guys to win. As soon as as 0:45:10.160 --> 0:45:13.040 soon as Portland locations start going, I'll definitely go in 0:45:13.239 --> 0:45:17.280 and support. But until then I will make coffee alone 0:45:17.480 --> 0:45:24.080 in my my, my, my lonely, my my lonely espresso machine. Um. 0:45:24.080 --> 0:45:27.080 But yeah, thank you, thank you so much for for 0:45:27.360 --> 0:45:30.160 coming on to talk. Thank you, thank you so much. 0:45:44.680 --> 0:45:47.840 Welcome to It could Happen Here, a podcast about things 0:45:48.080 --> 0:45:52.480 falling apart and even occasionally about trying to put them 0:45:52.480 --> 0:45:56.440 back together. Today, as is too often the case, we're 0:45:56.440 --> 0:45:59.160 going to be focused more on the falling apart thing, 0:45:59.280 --> 0:46:05.160 because today we are talking about the situation in Ukraine. UM, 0:46:05.200 --> 0:46:08.160 it is as I I type or not type because 0:46:08.200 --> 0:46:10.239 I'm not writing, but you know, you get how I'm 0:46:10.320 --> 0:46:13.400 used to thinking. As I say this. Russian troops have 0:46:13.520 --> 0:46:17.279 just moved in to two regions in eastern Ukraine that 0:46:17.320 --> 0:46:20.360 have been occupied by what are generally called Russian backed 0:46:20.440 --> 0:46:26.040 separatists since two thousand and fourteen. Vladimir Putin gave a 0:46:26.080 --> 0:46:27.880 speech that I will be we'll be talking about a 0:46:27.880 --> 0:46:31.200 bit with our guest um and announced his intention to 0:46:31.280 --> 0:46:37.719 recognize those breakaway sections of the country as independent republics. Uh. 0:46:37.760 --> 0:46:40.360 And the area that he has chosen to recognize includes 0:46:40.360 --> 0:46:44.440 about sevent territory that is currently occupied and held by 0:46:44.480 --> 0:46:47.759 the Ukrainian government. So it's a big mess. UH. This 0:46:47.880 --> 0:46:50.960 is some have said like a soft version of the 0:46:51.040 --> 0:46:54.000 invasion that people were expecting. I think it's probably more 0:46:54.000 --> 0:46:58.759 accurate to say it's a slow start, um, compared to 0:46:58.840 --> 0:47:01.840 what is potentially possible and very likely coming in the future. 0:47:02.320 --> 0:47:05.520 To talk more about this and about being an anarchist 0:47:05.600 --> 0:47:09.000 kind of trapped in between you know, NATO and Russia 0:47:09.080 --> 0:47:13.960 and everything that's flinging around right now. Is Ukrainian journalist 0:47:14.360 --> 0:47:19.000 Romeo Kokratski Romeo, Welcome to the show. Thanks a lot, 0:47:19.080 --> 0:47:21.520 thanks for having me. Been a big fan of yours. 0:47:22.080 --> 0:47:25.239 So it's an honor to be here. And you are 0:47:25.280 --> 0:47:28.200 in your in Kiev right now, right? Yeah? Correct? And 0:47:28.200 --> 0:47:30.960 and how is everybody keeps asking this all around? But 0:47:31.040 --> 0:47:34.239 how is the mood? Um? As you know, to the 0:47:34.280 --> 0:47:36.560 extent that there's a way of saying that, like I've i've, 0:47:36.960 --> 0:47:40.480 you know, have things kind of taking a turn since 0:47:41.560 --> 0:47:47.000 Putin actually made his first big play. I mean, as 0:47:47.120 --> 0:47:50.160 much as journalists like to say, there is no magic 0:47:52.239 --> 0:47:57.160 to instantly bull every resident in the city to find out, Yeah, 0:47:57.200 --> 0:48:01.160 walk around and talk to everybody, just like all the 0:48:01.200 --> 0:48:03.279 four million or whatever citizens in the city. Let me 0:48:03.320 --> 0:48:07.239 just let me just ask him. Um. But like, there 0:48:07.239 --> 0:48:09.400 definitely has been a turning point. Um. Like one of 0:48:09.480 --> 0:48:13.440 the big refrains that I've seen, like personally and everyone 0:48:13.520 --> 0:48:16.640 has been saying, right, is that Ukrainians are so calm. 0:48:16.680 --> 0:48:19.520 Look at these pictures of them like shopping in malls 0:48:19.600 --> 0:48:22.000 and like going to school. What else are you supposed 0:48:22.040 --> 0:48:25.920 to do? What else are we supposed to do? But 0:48:26.080 --> 0:48:28.120 I mean that this true, people have been calmed. But 0:48:28.280 --> 0:48:33.759 since yesterday evening there definitely has been a shift, um, 0:48:33.840 --> 0:48:37.400 and even casual conversation, uh in key of like I 0:48:37.480 --> 0:48:43.520 was sitting, to paraphrase a famous columnists usual framing, I 0:48:43.560 --> 0:48:48.000 was sitting in a cafe and overhearing the wait staff 0:48:48.080 --> 0:48:52.080 chat amongst themselves. Um, and obviously the the the whole 0:48:52.080 --> 0:48:54.799 conversation is, oh is Putin going to push into Kiev? 0:48:55.280 --> 0:49:01.080 And anecdotally we're semi anecdotally, I guess, Um, apartment prices 0:49:01.239 --> 0:49:03.719 in the western cities like in Lviv and uge World 0:49:03.800 --> 0:49:08.319 have really spiped up, like incredibly so that people are 0:49:08.760 --> 0:49:11.120 I wouldn't call that. That's a depressing way to pay 0:49:11.160 --> 0:49:15.360 attention to, that a reason to pay attention to that, Like, 0:49:15.400 --> 0:49:17.440 I wouldn't call it a mass panic. Um. There's no 0:49:17.600 --> 0:49:21.360 like bank runs, no, like all the stores are stocked. No, 0:49:21.400 --> 0:49:25.120 one's like hoarding. Um. But at the same time, there 0:49:25.280 --> 0:49:28.799 is a study trickle of people going west and kind 0:49:28.800 --> 0:49:33.920 of making plans at this point. Yeah, and UM, So 0:49:34.080 --> 0:49:36.359 this to kind of give people a little bit more 0:49:36.400 --> 0:49:39.719 context before we get into some of the more political 0:49:39.719 --> 0:49:46.680 dimensions of this um. Right now, there has not been 0:49:46.719 --> 0:49:51.240 a massive escalation um of violence outside of the areas 0:49:51.280 --> 0:49:53.480 where there have been fighting for several years. You know, 0:49:53.480 --> 0:49:55.480 there has been an escalation on the front line that's 0:49:55.480 --> 0:50:00.680 existed since UM, but there has not been like troops 0:50:00.719 --> 0:50:03.040 pouring across the border in other areas and stuff. And 0:50:03.040 --> 0:50:08.040 that's obviously probably the number one worry. UM. It looks 0:50:08.160 --> 0:50:11.960 like what's about to happen is or at least it's 0:50:11.960 --> 0:50:16.000 hard to say, because Putin has recognized the borders of 0:50:16.040 --> 0:50:20.239 this breakaway part of Ukraine as significantly larger than the 0:50:20.239 --> 0:50:23.200 area they actually control, and he has moved troops, Russian 0:50:23.239 --> 0:50:26.319 active duty troops into that area. Now, Russian troops, I'm 0:50:26.600 --> 0:50:29.279 from what I've heard about three thousand have been in 0:50:29.560 --> 0:50:34.360 the breakaway areas for years now, UM, but a significant yeah, 0:50:34.520 --> 0:50:37.640 a significant number have been added now. And obviously the 0:50:37.680 --> 0:50:41.000 fear is that because he has recognized the territory of 0:50:41.040 --> 0:50:44.080 these these quote unquote in his terms breakaway republics is 0:50:44.120 --> 0:50:46.800 being much larger than what they control, that Russian troops 0:50:46.840 --> 0:50:51.239 are going to participate with the separatists UM in attacking 0:50:51.360 --> 0:50:55.680 and taking those territories from the Ukrainian government. UM. That's 0:50:55.840 --> 0:50:59.239 one concern. Obviously. The the concern attached to that is 0:50:59.280 --> 0:51:03.000 that it would be not at all inconceivable for a 0:51:03.120 --> 0:51:05.879 conflict that started that way to spread to a much 0:51:05.920 --> 0:51:10.719 wider part of Ukraine. Um, this is all coming alongside 0:51:10.719 --> 0:51:14.200 a speech Putin gave that, unfortunately, is going to be 0:51:14.239 --> 0:51:18.720 one of those things people here about in history books. Um. Yeah, 0:51:18.920 --> 0:51:22.319 out of it, God damn mind. And it's one of 0:51:22.320 --> 0:51:24.480 those things. We will talk some more about how the 0:51:24.520 --> 0:51:28.640 Western left sometimes I don't want to be like because 0:51:28.640 --> 0:51:31.239 this is also largely the the online left, but how 0:51:31.280 --> 0:51:34.480 the online left talks about Putin sometimes. This was not 0:51:34.560 --> 0:51:37.200 a I want to return to the Soviet Union at speech. 0:51:37.280 --> 0:51:39.960 This was I want to return to czarist Russia's borders 0:51:40.040 --> 0:51:44.960 type speech. Like the guy has the Czarist imperial crest 0:51:45.239 --> 0:51:48.040 emblazoned on the gates to his palace. So I'm really 0:51:48.080 --> 0:51:51.919 not sure what people would have expected. And unfortunately he's 0:51:51.960 --> 0:51:54.480 better at his job than any of the last tsars 0:51:54.520 --> 0:51:57.960 were because he's he's achieved a notable amount of success 0:51:58.000 --> 0:52:02.520 towards that goal already. Um, and yeah, he he a 0:52:02.600 --> 0:52:05.239 number of things that were it's one of those. Like 0:52:06.040 --> 0:52:08.040 one of the things he said, which is a line 0:52:08.080 --> 0:52:11.560 that folks like him in Russia have been saying for 0:52:11.600 --> 0:52:16.160 a while, is that Ukraine. The existence of Ukraine as 0:52:16.200 --> 0:52:20.080 an independent polity is a mistake. And as an anarchist, 0:52:20.239 --> 0:52:22.239 you know, there's this like, well, yeah, I don't I 0:52:22.280 --> 0:52:24.640 don't like the Ukrainian state. I don't like any state 0:52:24.640 --> 0:52:27.520 in particular. But if you're if your only disagreement is 0:52:27.560 --> 0:52:29.840 with the statehood of Ukraine and you're fine with the 0:52:29.880 --> 0:52:33.120 statehod of Russia, you know, then then perhaps what you 0:52:33.200 --> 0:52:36.600 actually think is that people in Ukraine should not have 0:52:36.640 --> 0:52:40.520 any autonomy to disagree with the government in Moscow. Um. 0:52:41.120 --> 0:52:44.319 And I think that's the case here. Um. There's a 0:52:44.760 --> 0:52:48.200 there's similarities between how Putin and those like him in 0:52:48.280 --> 0:52:52.480 Russia treat Ukrainians um with how for example, the Turks 0:52:52.640 --> 0:52:55.160 treat Kurds in the southern part of the country. There's 0:52:55.160 --> 0:52:57.400 this this thing you'll hear a lot from Turkey, where like, 0:52:57.400 --> 0:53:00.160 there's no Kurds in Turkey, They're they're mountain Turk who 0:53:00.200 --> 0:53:04.279 have lost their their language. And there's this denial from 0:53:04.360 --> 0:53:07.960 Putin in the Russians that Ukrainians are a people, that 0:53:08.040 --> 0:53:11.279 they exist, and this this is a something that has translated. 0:53:12.200 --> 0:53:14.879 Most people have heard versions of this, and just any 0:53:14.880 --> 0:53:16.440 of the coverage you've heard of Ukraine if you've ever 0:53:16.520 --> 0:53:19.160 heard of it referred to as the Ukraine. What that 0:53:19.400 --> 0:53:23.360 is is part of a very old um line that 0:53:23.520 --> 0:53:27.160 kind of exists to allow Russians to deny the existence 0:53:27.239 --> 0:53:29.160 of Ukrainians as a people and make it make it 0:53:29.160 --> 0:53:31.480 seem more like it's just kind of a geographic region, 0:53:31.560 --> 0:53:35.040 which is not the case. And why you wouldn't refer 0:53:35.120 --> 0:53:37.360 to you wouldn't call it the Ukraine anymore than you 0:53:37.360 --> 0:53:40.400 would call it the Canada. Um, it just isn't the 0:53:40.400 --> 0:53:44.000 way you, you say, should say that. But um. Yeah, 0:53:44.239 --> 0:53:47.680 So I think that's at least enough of a background 0:53:47.680 --> 0:53:49.440 to get into the real media what we want to 0:53:49.440 --> 0:53:51.479 talk about. So, and I'm just gonna kind of open 0:53:51.560 --> 0:53:54.400 this up to you to chat about what you'd like 0:53:54.520 --> 0:53:57.239 to say and what you think needs to be gotten 0:53:57.280 --> 0:54:02.200 across to the international left, because internationalism is something we 0:54:02.360 --> 0:54:04.239 value a lot here and it has been hard to 0:54:04.280 --> 0:54:12.400 find in this conflict. Yeah, Like, growing up in the 0:54:12.560 --> 0:54:16.120 York in the nineties, one of the core values I 0:54:16.239 --> 0:54:21.600 kind of absorbed, I guess through osmosis is the value 0:54:21.680 --> 0:54:25.040 that every single person I met, regardless of whatever corner 0:54:25.040 --> 0:54:27.960 of the world they came from, is the exact scene 0:54:28.200 --> 0:54:33.319 beings me, UM, and it wasn't. And and that kind 0:54:33.320 --> 0:54:37.000 of realization was one of the things that I guess 0:54:37.040 --> 0:54:41.439 I wouldn't say pushed, but UM conspired to to turn 0:54:41.520 --> 0:54:47.439 me into a leftist, a socialist Marxist UM. And part 0:54:47.480 --> 0:54:50.040 of that, especially when I was learning about what the 0:54:50.040 --> 0:54:54.720 hell all these isms were, UM, was internationalism, the idea 0:54:54.840 --> 0:54:59.360 that well, our struggle isn't within the the fabricated borders 0:54:59.520 --> 0:55:02.960 of what ever UM polity has has decided to impose 0:55:03.040 --> 0:55:08.400 their their authority. UM. But internationally, every single worker is 0:55:08.440 --> 0:55:11.759 the same as every other worker. We're all struggling with 0:55:11.800 --> 0:55:16.000 the same issues, we're all fighting the same forces, UM, 0:55:16.080 --> 0:55:20.759 and generally speaking, we have the same enemies. Ah. Now 0:55:20.840 --> 0:55:25.360 fast forward to two h I go online and what 0:55:25.440 --> 0:55:30.080 do I see? Well, Ukrainians are all Nazis or Ukraine 0:55:30.120 --> 0:55:33.000 shouldn't exist, or how can we support either of those? 0:55:33.040 --> 0:55:36.480 It's two fascist states fighting each other. And I'm sorry, 0:55:36.800 --> 0:55:39.120 Ukraine has got a population of forty four million. You 0:55:39.120 --> 0:55:42.879 want to tell me that every single one of those 0:55:42.880 --> 0:55:45.480 forty four million or Nazis Like people didn't even say 0:55:45.520 --> 0:55:49.719 that about Germany. They were literally the Nazi state, I 0:55:49.719 --> 0:55:54.279 mean the United States, um for that man like, we 0:55:54.400 --> 0:55:59.920 had four years of Trump and openly fascist authoritarian lee 0:56:01.120 --> 0:56:03.239 and no one seems to say, well, I guess the 0:56:03.360 --> 0:56:05.560 U s should be bombed. Well, I guess there are some. 0:56:05.880 --> 0:56:08.799 I mean, there's definitely there's definitely people that yeah, but 0:56:08.880 --> 0:56:16.320 generally speaking that's not exactly the view that people take right. Um. 0:56:16.400 --> 0:56:20.719 So it's it's been a long process of disappointment. Well, 0:56:20.760 --> 0:56:24.359 I say, long, Um, there's always been the kind of 0:56:24.400 --> 0:56:28.200 well what are these people really think about Ukraine? But 0:56:28.960 --> 0:56:32.960 breaft of such a strong impetus to take a side, 0:56:32.960 --> 0:56:36.319 I guess, um, it hasn't been in the forefront. And 0:56:36.400 --> 0:56:39.279 now every day I see people that I would have 0:56:39.400 --> 0:56:45.000 considered comrades, that I would have considered um friends and brothers, 0:56:45.080 --> 0:56:48.560 just kind of turned their back on me. Because I 0:56:48.640 --> 0:56:52.080 live here, right, any any aggression, any action that's taken 0:56:52.560 --> 0:56:57.839 will literally affect me physically sitting here and cue. Um. 0:56:57.960 --> 0:57:02.960 So it's been it's been really really immensely disheartening to 0:57:03.000 --> 0:57:05.880 see that every single value UM that I thought the 0:57:05.960 --> 0:57:07.680 Left was supposed to value, that that I thought the 0:57:07.719 --> 0:57:14.520 left was built on um by people with rows emojis 0:57:14.640 --> 0:57:18.080 or hammering sickles in their user names or whatever the 0:57:18.080 --> 0:57:21.760 hell it is, and we should probably talk about some 0:57:21.880 --> 0:57:24.240 of why this is and what the what the history 0:57:24.320 --> 0:57:27.400 is here. So, the most kind of direct thing that 0:57:27.440 --> 0:57:29.800 people can point to when they when they call Ukraine 0:57:29.800 --> 0:57:31.400 a fascist state or when they talk about this is 0:57:31.400 --> 0:57:33.480 the existence of the ass Off Battalion the AS of 0:57:33.520 --> 0:57:37.720 Italian as a paramilitary organization. That means it's it's not 0:57:37.880 --> 0:57:41.760 officially a part of the governmental military structure, but it 0:57:41.760 --> 0:57:44.880 it does receive it has received arms from the government 0:57:44.920 --> 0:57:49.840 and it UH functions as part of Ukraine's defense forces 0:57:50.120 --> 0:57:53.560 UM for the for the purposes of fighting off the 0:57:53.640 --> 0:57:57.160 Russian back separatists UM and the AS of Italian and Nazis. 0:57:57.400 --> 0:58:00.760 There's there's you know, the the you can There's been 0:58:00.760 --> 0:58:03.120 a tremendous amount of reporting on that. On that matter, 0:58:03.240 --> 0:58:06.280 it's a big problem in the Ukrainian government deserves a 0:58:06.320 --> 0:58:10.840 significant amount of criticism for the degree to which as 0:58:10.840 --> 0:58:14.400 OFF has been allowed to continue existing UM. But there's 0:58:14.400 --> 0:58:17.120 also a lot that gets left out when people focus 0:58:17.160 --> 0:58:20.400 on that, including the fact that, for example, the political 0:58:20.440 --> 0:58:22.640 wing of as Off right sector, which is kind of 0:58:22.680 --> 0:58:24.000 the that it would be fair to call that the 0:58:24.080 --> 0:58:26.120 umbrella term for like the far right parties in the 0:58:26.200 --> 0:58:31.200 Ukraini Ukrainian government have been pretty effectively siloed away from 0:58:31.400 --> 0:58:35.040 political power through very active measures to about like what 0:58:35.160 --> 0:58:39.680 is one percent of um like representation, and so it 0:58:39.840 --> 0:58:43.080 didn't actually pass the threshold tantor the new barliament. Yeah, 0:58:43.120 --> 0:58:48.080 they're they're nonentity politically, they're just non popular there. Um 0:58:48.200 --> 0:58:53.320 campaigns failed, their models fail, their agitation fails. Ukrainians do 0:58:53.440 --> 0:58:57.440 not want to vote for Nazis. Yeah, and it's it is. 0:58:57.560 --> 0:59:00.960 It is a an ugly situation. I I remember talking 0:59:01.000 --> 0:59:03.640 with when I was reporting on the mightn uprisings, which 0:59:03.680 --> 0:59:07.240 is when, again for people who aren't up on recent 0:59:07.320 --> 0:59:11.240 Ukrainian history, they had a president who tried to do 0:59:11.280 --> 0:59:14.480 a dictatorship um, and people rose up and fought him 0:59:14.480 --> 0:59:17.280 in the streets. Um. It was a very gnarly time. 0:59:17.320 --> 0:59:21.000 About two hundred people were shot by government forces. Um. 0:59:21.120 --> 0:59:23.360 And eventually the president was forced to flee the country, 0:59:23.360 --> 0:59:26.040 which is what precipitated everything that's happening now, because that 0:59:26.120 --> 0:59:29.440 president was pretty closely tied with Putin and the people 0:59:29.520 --> 0:59:33.160 fighting him. UM, we're not all they were not pro 0:59:33.280 --> 0:59:36.280 NATO rebels, but they were more definitely more supportive of 0:59:36.320 --> 0:59:39.760 closer ties with Western Europe than they were with Russia. UM. 0:59:39.840 --> 0:59:42.160 And that again, those are kind of the precipitating events 0:59:42.160 --> 0:59:46.360 for everything that happened that's happening now. Um. And some 0:59:46.520 --> 0:59:51.200 of the people who were fighting the president's forces were fascists. UM. 0:59:51.280 --> 0:59:52.960 And it's one of those things. I remember talking with 0:59:53.000 --> 0:59:55.360 protesters at the time who were like, well, am I 0:59:55.400 --> 0:59:57.720 supposed to get in fight with them at the same 0:59:57.760 --> 1:00:00.000 time as I'm trying not to get shot by riot police. 1:00:00.000 --> 1:00:01.960 It's like, what what do you expect me to do? 1:00:02.280 --> 1:00:05.000 And it is a nasty situation, and it's one of 1:00:05.000 --> 1:00:09.240 those things. UM. I don't know, Like I don't know 1:00:09.280 --> 1:00:14.400 what to tell people about that, because it's it's it's ugly, 1:00:14.800 --> 1:00:21.920 and it's uncomfortable and it's messy. And that's also Ukrainian history. 1:00:21.960 --> 1:00:24.200 There's a lot of ugly, uncomfortable, messy things here is 1:00:24.200 --> 1:00:27.200 there's with every country's history. It doesn't mean people in 1:00:27.320 --> 1:00:31.640 Kiev deserve to have their housing blocks pounded by Russian artillery. 1:00:31.720 --> 1:00:33.920 Doesn't mean that people in Vadivka deserve to have their 1:00:33.920 --> 1:00:37.920 homes pounded by artillery. UM. And whatever criticisms you want 1:00:37.920 --> 1:00:40.120 to make about how the Russian government or how the 1:00:40.240 --> 1:00:42.440 Ukrainian government has handled as Off, And there are many 1:00:42.480 --> 1:00:46.000 criticisms to make that's not really relevant to the people 1:00:46.080 --> 1:00:49.000 living in these areas having their homes destroyed on a 1:00:49.080 --> 1:00:51.960 daily basis by mortar fire. I just want to make 1:00:52.400 --> 1:00:55.520 like a couple of things really clear. The as Off 1:00:55.600 --> 1:01:02.480 Battallion is like a thousand guys like Macs. And the reason, 1:01:02.640 --> 1:01:04.800 one of the reasons at least that they rose to 1:01:04.920 --> 1:01:09.120 such prominence in the beginning wasn't only there um ability 1:01:09.200 --> 1:01:11.880 to mobilize in the early stages of the Russian war 1:01:11.880 --> 1:01:15.560 against Ukraine. It was also because they had very strong 1:01:15.640 --> 1:01:20.240 financial backing um from the former Interior Minister um Arsenivakav. 1:01:20.480 --> 1:01:23.760 And Ivakav is no longer in power, UH. And one 1:01:23.800 --> 1:01:28.960 of the things you can see immediately was the like 1:01:29.120 --> 1:01:34.760 almost nullifying of fascist street marshes and fascist demonstrations UM 1:01:34.840 --> 1:01:38.880 in Kiev outside the President's office. That all vanished because 1:01:39.560 --> 1:01:43.560 more like in Ukraine, ideology is not very strong. And 1:01:43.560 --> 1:01:45.640 this is something UM that I've noticed a lot of 1:01:45.680 --> 1:01:49.040 people UH from the US in Europe have trouble understanding 1:01:49.040 --> 1:01:55.080 about Ukrainian politics. People here are not really ideological. Our 1:01:55.120 --> 1:01:58.600 parties don't map UM. Aside from a couple of outliers 1:01:58.680 --> 1:02:02.080 like rights actor UM, it doesn't really map to any 1:02:02.160 --> 1:02:06.280 left right access UM. People typically will always want the 1:02:06.280 --> 1:02:09.720 same policies, like they always want a pension, they always 1:02:09.800 --> 1:02:12.800 want UM universal healthcare to be better, they always want 1:02:12.800 --> 1:02:17.480 the roads fixed. UM generally policy something most Ukrainians actually 1:02:17.480 --> 1:02:20.520 agree on UM. As a result, most of our elections 1:02:20.520 --> 1:02:24.040 are purely personality based. That's one of the reasons m 1:02:24.240 --> 1:02:28.720 Zelenski Voladimer's Lenski Orur current president. One was because he 1:02:28.840 --> 1:02:32.760 was a well known comedian. Yeah, and people liked his personality, 1:02:32.840 --> 1:02:35.360 and he put out a whole TV show as a 1:02:35.400 --> 1:02:39.720 pr stunt um before launching his campaign, and people voted 1:02:39.760 --> 1:02:44.280 for that personality the on screen h And so when 1:02:45.720 --> 1:02:48.400 there was far right activity, and again I want to 1:02:48.600 --> 1:02:53.240 stress that that activity, even the street activity, has almost disappear, 1:02:53.760 --> 1:02:58.040 it's because the far right is typically used in Ukraine 1:02:58.080 --> 1:03:00.760 as a political tool by one. All of our were 1:03:00.800 --> 1:03:04.840 one interest group against another. That's why when the money disappeared, 1:03:05.080 --> 1:03:09.440 they disappeared. Because the leaderships, the leadership of these fascist 1:03:09.480 --> 1:03:15.760 groups typically speaking, we're not UM that ideological themselves. But 1:03:15.920 --> 1:03:18.480 they did like having USUV s and they did like 1:03:18.720 --> 1:03:23.040 buying guns and um, hiring hookers and doing drugs. Like 1:03:23.200 --> 1:03:25.680 they liked the money and that's why they did it. 1:03:25.960 --> 1:03:28.640 And they would convince a bunch of teenagers to go 1:03:28.720 --> 1:03:32.040 out and wave a couple of torches and march or chant. 1:03:33.000 --> 1:03:37.640 But these guys were really purely in for the money. Um. 1:03:37.680 --> 1:03:39.600 And again you can tell that because when their financial 1:03:39.640 --> 1:03:43.200 backer disappeared there in order to be found. Yeah, And 1:03:43.200 --> 1:03:44.640 it's one of those one of the things that is 1:03:44.720 --> 1:03:47.640 very frustrating to me. I can't remember one of the 1:03:47.680 --> 1:03:51.000 earliest projects that I did that was like a for 1:03:51.240 --> 1:03:53.720 belling cat as we were there was a Pride march 1:03:53.920 --> 1:03:56.240 in Kiev that got attacked by Nazis. This was a 1:03:56.280 --> 1:03:58.600 couple of years back, and we were kind of trying 1:03:58.640 --> 1:04:01.480 to identify the individu Jewel fascists who are like beating 1:04:01.480 --> 1:04:05.640 people in the street, and it's spending hours pouring over 1:04:05.680 --> 1:04:09.440 that footage. It makes it incredibly frustrating that there are 1:04:09.480 --> 1:04:11.880 people outside of the country boiling it down to while 1:04:11.920 --> 1:04:14.560 all of those people are fascists, all of those people 1:04:14.600 --> 1:04:16.160 are part of a fascist state, and it's like no 1:04:16.960 --> 1:04:19.440 a lot of those people. Quite a few Ukrainians have 1:04:19.480 --> 1:04:22.720 fought Nazis in the streets, you know. Um, that's a 1:04:22.760 --> 1:04:29.040 reality of the situation. And it's it's um and it 1:04:29.040 --> 1:04:33.040 it's it's ugly in part because if you actually want 1:04:33.040 --> 1:04:37.360 to look at what's been happening, uh with the Russian 1:04:37.400 --> 1:04:41.720 back separatists, there's a lot of fascists over there. Um, 1:04:42.000 --> 1:04:45.600 there's a lot of paramilitary organizations and like far right 1:04:45.720 --> 1:04:49.720 groups that have been used by the Russian government. Yeah, yeah, 1:04:49.920 --> 1:04:55.160 literally literally because they're fascist leader Yeah, like Lagner, like 1:04:55.240 --> 1:05:00.080 many Nazis. It's it's it's hard to to understand to 1:05:00.080 --> 1:05:04.520 sleep from my perspective, um, because not only is Russian 1:05:04.520 --> 1:05:09.200 fascism have far more influence on Russian policy than any 1:05:09.280 --> 1:05:12.800 Ukrainian fascists has ever had in Ukrainian policy. Um, it's 1:05:12.840 --> 1:05:16.240 also that the Russian project and the narrative they use. Um. 1:05:16.400 --> 1:05:20.200 There there's this joke they call are not really joke, 1:05:20.200 --> 1:05:25.120 a slurred they call they call Ukrainians Nazi's been darists, um. 1:05:25.160 --> 1:05:30.440 For those who don't open Darrow was a Ukrainian nationalist 1:05:30.520 --> 1:05:36.880 leader partisan fought against the Soviets UH, and he his 1:05:37.040 --> 1:05:41.920 organization was implicated in quite a few war crimes, significant 1:05:42.000 --> 1:05:46.600 number of war crimes, war crimes. UH so clearly been 1:05:46.640 --> 1:05:50.680 near himself, probably not a great guy, Yeah, but to 1:05:51.000 --> 1:05:56.280 delegitimize all Ukrainian kind of independence movements that I've propped 1:05:56.360 --> 1:05:58.320 up over the years, the Soviet government and now the 1:05:58.360 --> 1:06:01.960 Russian government has always he's insisted that there is no 1:06:02.280 --> 1:06:06.720 legitimate way for Ukraine to be independent. We're all Nazi 1:06:06.800 --> 1:06:10.360 Bandarists no matter what. And that's why you had UM. 1:06:10.400 --> 1:06:12.880 There's a picture a couple of days ago of a 1:06:13.040 --> 1:06:19.200 solidarity marshin Kiev UM with UH some of Kiev's LGBT 1:06:19.520 --> 1:06:24.320 community holding up Bandara's flags, not because they're gay Nazis, 1:06:25.120 --> 1:06:31.560 because it's a way of, yeah, retaking this slur back 1:06:31.600 --> 1:06:35.200 from the Russians. And it's all part of the complicating 1:06:35.280 --> 1:06:40.400 factor here is that because of how geo politics worked 1:06:40.440 --> 1:06:44.040 out in that period of time, there are very uncomfortable 1:06:44.080 --> 1:06:49.600 but kind of inextricable ties between UH Ukrainian, the basic 1:06:49.680 --> 1:06:52.960 idea of Ukraine being a nation independent from Russia and 1:06:53.040 --> 1:06:56.720 anti communism, and because of what was going on in 1:06:56.800 --> 1:06:59.440 anti communism in that period of time, we're talking the 1:06:59.440 --> 1:07:02.520 thirties and forties. It means that a decent number of 1:07:02.560 --> 1:07:08.200 those early Ukrainian nationalists were either directly implicated with the 1:07:08.240 --> 1:07:11.200 Nazis like Bandera, or at least had uncomfortable ties. And 1:07:11.760 --> 1:07:13.720 that's a messy part of history that shouldn't be shied 1:07:13.720 --> 1:07:16.560 away from. But for example, the same thing is true 1:07:16.560 --> 1:07:19.880 of Finland. Like you can say the exact same thing 1:07:19.920 --> 1:07:24.960 about sucking Finnish nationalism, Finnish sovereignty and whatnot, um, And 1:07:25.040 --> 1:07:29.520 people don't call Finland a Nazi nation, um even though Yeah, 1:07:29.520 --> 1:07:32.080 the fact that they were stuck between the USSR and 1:07:32.200 --> 1:07:34.640 Nazi Germany means that there were a lot of Fins 1:07:34.680 --> 1:07:36.600 in that period of time who made some real fucked 1:07:36.640 --> 1:07:41.200 up choices, um like. But also there's a lot that 1:07:41.280 --> 1:07:45.000 has to be like, you can't adequately discuss why those 1:07:45.080 --> 1:07:46.880 choices were made if you don't talk about, for example, 1:07:46.880 --> 1:07:49.840 the holodomor you know, which was the starvation genocide of 1:07:49.880 --> 1:07:54.480 several million Ukrainians by the Soviet government. Like people to 1:07:54.640 --> 1:07:59.960 go back even further, um and to I don't know, Bernard, 1:08:00.120 --> 1:08:02.640 my leftist production a little bit, if you go back 1:08:02.760 --> 1:08:06.960 to the Civil War itself, where um, a lot of 1:08:07.000 --> 1:08:11.120 this started most of the nationalist groups, I would say 1:08:11.240 --> 1:08:13.480 nearly all of them. There were one or two monarchists 1:08:13.520 --> 1:08:16.519 minor monarchist groups in Ukraine, but the grand majority of 1:08:16.560 --> 1:08:21.760 them were in fact socialism or socialist. They had like 1:08:21.920 --> 1:08:25.160 the hammer and sickle and wheat on their currency and everything, 1:08:25.680 --> 1:08:29.519 because at the time that was what one votes UH 1:08:29.560 --> 1:08:35.320 from the peasantry. But when the Bolsheviks crushed every independent 1:08:35.439 --> 1:08:40.800 Ukrainian social movement in exchange for bureaucrats that they imported 1:08:40.880 --> 1:08:46.200 from the Empire and just shoved into Ukrainian cities, H, Well, 1:08:46.320 --> 1:08:49.680 then you had Ukrainians that wanted to be independent and 1:08:49.720 --> 1:08:53.160 wanted to have a better life than under the Tsar. Well, 1:08:53.240 --> 1:08:57.439 now suddenly they don't even have that support um from 1:08:57.560 --> 1:09:02.760 the Bolsheviks UH. And obviously, as a Ukrainian UM, I 1:09:02.800 --> 1:09:06.240 can't talk about this without bringing up Nestro Macnu, who 1:09:06.360 --> 1:09:09.080 was a anarchist leader, the leader of the Ukrainian Black 1:09:09.160 --> 1:09:13.040 Army UM during the Civil war. And what happened to them, Well, 1:09:13.400 --> 1:09:16.800 the Bolsheviks betrayed them and killed all of them, and 1:09:16.840 --> 1:09:19.639 of course the movement UH and then smeared them all 1:09:19.840 --> 1:09:23.800 is UM. How to file rapist cannibals if I remember correctly. Yeah, Yeah, 1:09:23.880 --> 1:09:27.519 there's a lot of of of disinformation you can find 1:09:27.520 --> 1:09:30.760 about that time, just like today, you know, only the 1:09:30.840 --> 1:09:35.519 names have changed exactly. So if there is no other 1:09:35.640 --> 1:09:41.200 outlet for Ukrainian nationalism and the group that you thought 1:09:41.280 --> 1:09:45.719 maybe an ally in UH destroying the empire in granting 1:09:45.720 --> 1:09:48.960 you self determination, turns out to be a continuation of 1:09:48.960 --> 1:09:54.200 that exact empire. Well it's pretty logical. Maybe not right, 1:09:54.240 --> 1:09:56.840 but it is pretty logical for people go to the 1:09:57.040 --> 1:09:59.080 for people to go to the other extremes. And it's 1:09:59.120 --> 1:10:01.000 one of those One of the things I think that 1:10:01.040 --> 1:10:04.040 should be noted more, as we talked about earlier, is 1:10:04.080 --> 1:10:08.400 that one of these stories of Ukrainian politics, particularly in 1:10:08.439 --> 1:10:11.920 the last got close to a decade since the Maidan, 1:10:13.000 --> 1:10:18.080 is that mainstream Ukrainian political leaders and Ukrainian voters have 1:10:18.240 --> 1:10:22.320 overwhelmingly rejected that sort of nationalism this time around, UM 1:10:22.360 --> 1:10:25.080 and have gone out of their way to silo it 1:10:25.120 --> 1:10:28.240 out of active political power, UM in a way that 1:10:28.280 --> 1:10:30.400 one could argue is more successful than has been done 1:10:30.400 --> 1:10:36.600 in the United States. UM. And absolutely we didn't ye Trump, Yeah, no, 1:10:36.720 --> 1:10:41.200 you get you guys basically elected John Stewart. UM. Pretty 1:10:41.280 --> 1:10:44.360 much I mean that was his Um. Yeah, it was 1:10:44.760 --> 1:10:48.720 his whole thing. He put on satirical political sketches, that 1:10:48.840 --> 1:10:54.000 was the entire show. Um. We did basically elect John Stewart. 1:10:54.120 --> 1:10:57.280 And you know, I have my criticisms of Zelenski, um 1:10:57.320 --> 1:11:00.600 as a lot of people do. Uh. And one of 1:11:00.600 --> 1:11:03.439 the things we love saying in Ukraine whenever people are like, oh, 1:11:03.600 --> 1:11:05.360 look at all the look at all the Nazis there, 1:11:05.640 --> 1:11:09.240 We're so not We're so anti semitic that we elected 1:11:09.439 --> 1:11:12.880 a Jewish comedian that's how. That's how anti semitic we are. 1:11:13.680 --> 1:11:16.640 That we have huge minorris standing in the middle of 1:11:16.760 --> 1:11:19.960 Kiev during the high holidays, that's how. That's how anti 1:11:19.960 --> 1:11:24.320 semitic we are. Yeah. And and Zelinski's uh prime minister 1:11:24.720 --> 1:11:27.400 is also a Jewish Man, which makes Ukraine the second 1:11:27.439 --> 1:11:29.280 country in the world to have a Jewish president and 1:11:29.320 --> 1:11:33.000 prime minister. Um. Yeah, like we don't care because it's 1:11:33.000 --> 1:11:36.320 not it doesn't even come up in campaigns like what 1:11:36.439 --> 1:11:40.559 even when Romney was running uc Democratic campaigns, um painting 1:11:40.680 --> 1:11:44.720 is a scary Mormon or the ads implying in a 1:11:45.640 --> 1:11:48.599 moment you don't even have that level of religious antipathy 1:11:48.960 --> 1:11:53.560 in Ukraine. It's it's it's just a much more complicated 1:11:54.000 --> 1:11:56.360 We're actually talking about the problems of the far right 1:11:56.479 --> 1:11:58.880 and and to fascism, you know, in Ukraine. It's a 1:11:58.960 --> 1:12:02.360 much more complicated story than a lot of people on 1:12:03.320 --> 1:12:05.360 you know, social media or whatnot want to give it 1:12:05.400 --> 1:12:08.200 credit to because it's just easy to some things up 1:12:08.200 --> 1:12:11.640 in one sentence and not have to care about a 1:12:11.720 --> 1:12:15.400 looming humanitarian catastrophe. But that is what we are looking at. 1:12:15.439 --> 1:12:19.479 If this invasion, it will be bad. If Russia uses 1:12:19.600 --> 1:12:23.080 active forces in order to take the remainder of those 1:12:23.160 --> 1:12:27.240 two provinces from the Ukrainian government, it will be a 1:12:27.479 --> 1:12:33.960 nightmare of almost unimaginable consequence. If the invasion proceeds on 1:12:34.000 --> 1:12:37.719 the wider scale that is possible at this point, um. 1:12:37.760 --> 1:12:42.280 And it is no, no no, no, please yeah. UM. I've 1:12:42.320 --> 1:12:45.639 been a dumor on this basically since I first heard 1:12:45.640 --> 1:12:49.880 about the build up, um, because Putin has made it 1:12:50.000 --> 1:12:52.720 very clear over the years what he considers Ukraine to be. 1:12:52.800 --> 1:12:56.240 Like you mentioned, he doesn't think that Ukraine should exist 1:12:56.560 --> 1:13:02.639 as like a polity. Um. And as a result, I 1:13:02.760 --> 1:13:05.720 have pretty much this whole time been pretty sure that 1:13:05.760 --> 1:13:08.639 he's going to attack you. Um. And now we're coming 1:13:08.680 --> 1:13:13.639 to a very definite tipping point. Um. Just today, Putin's 1:13:13.640 --> 1:13:17.120 made a lot of moves. UM. Like you mentioned, he 1:13:17.800 --> 1:13:21.879 authorized military force to be used um in the Damas. 1:13:21.880 --> 1:13:24.479 And actually he's gone further. He's authorized military force to 1:13:24.520 --> 1:13:28.479 be used abroad, UH, which I mean obviously that means 1:13:28.560 --> 1:13:32.160 Ukraine where else that's where his like the about I 1:13:32.200 --> 1:13:36.679 think seven of the entire Russian Army is currently around 1:13:36.800 --> 1:13:40.640 Ukraine or close enough that they can reinforce um without 1:13:41.160 --> 1:13:43.400 a lot of yeah, at least of the active duty, 1:13:43.400 --> 1:13:49.080 because the Russian military there's a small actually competent right yeah, yeah, yes, 1:13:50.040 --> 1:13:55.560 but the professional the contract soldiers, yes, Um. And especially 1:13:55.600 --> 1:13:59.599 on the northern border, Uh, there are a lot of 1:14:00.520 --> 1:14:03.559 battalion attach groups that are basically sitting and waiting, I 1:14:03.600 --> 1:14:07.200 guess for whatever the order will be eventually, um. And 1:14:07.240 --> 1:14:12.720 in Belarus, And since Putin has given this authorization to 1:14:12.800 --> 1:14:17.320 operate abroad, and he stated that he recognizes these puppet 1:14:17.320 --> 1:14:21.200 authorities as I qual him um that he recognizes their 1:14:21.240 --> 1:14:25.880 borders as the entirety of the Donetsk luconsk o BLUs, 1:14:25.880 --> 1:14:29.120 which again only a third of those territories are under 1:14:29.160 --> 1:14:33.200 the de facto control of public authorities. Two thirds of 1:14:33.200 --> 1:14:38.479 both provinces are still under Ukrainian government control, including the 1:14:38.479 --> 1:14:42.120 the critical port city of Marieuple. And now that Putin 1:14:42.160 --> 1:14:47.280 has authorized forced to be used abroad, well, it's kind 1:14:47.280 --> 1:14:51.760 of I mean, at least it is incredibly obvious to 1:14:51.800 --> 1:14:54.520 me what the next steps are from the Russian perspective. 1:14:54.720 --> 1:14:58.960 If I want to subjectate you right, um, and I 1:14:59.000 --> 1:15:01.880 think a big failing he is people in the West, 1:15:01.960 --> 1:15:06.320 especially the western left, um, no, very little of for example, 1:15:06.400 --> 1:15:10.360 the Chessian Wars, oh god, especially the Second War, and 1:15:11.040 --> 1:15:15.800 what happened to Rosnie, Yeah, Africa during that war, and 1:15:15.880 --> 1:15:20.080 what the Russians did the subjects that population. And if 1:15:20.120 --> 1:15:23.760 anyone thinks that Putin treasures Ukrainian lives any more than 1:15:23.800 --> 1:15:26.439 he did Chechen lives, then I've got a bridge of 1:15:26.479 --> 1:15:29.280 the proto sell them. Though you should act now because 1:15:29.360 --> 1:15:32.160 the valley's gonna drop real fast. Yeah, And it's one 1:15:32.200 --> 1:15:36.280 of those if you, as a good leftist, have spent 1:15:36.840 --> 1:15:39.680 a significant amount of time reading about the horrific crimes 1:15:39.800 --> 1:15:43.320 of of imperialist nations in Africa and Southeast Asia. In 1:15:43.439 --> 1:15:49.120 the America's um, what the Russian Federation did there is 1:15:49.439 --> 1:15:52.760 on that scale. It's it's absolutely on that scale. It was. 1:15:53.000 --> 1:15:58.840 It was a titanically ugly war. UM. And I mean 1:15:58.880 --> 1:16:01.400 any modernly you can look at what they did in 1:16:01.520 --> 1:16:05.000 Syria yea, or what they are doing in Syria, what 1:16:05.040 --> 1:16:07.960 they continue to do in Syria. UM. But as it 1:16:08.000 --> 1:16:11.720 turns out, UM, Syrians learned this lesson that I am 1:16:11.800 --> 1:16:16.160 learning now about big portions of the UM Western left 1:16:16.880 --> 1:16:19.519 a long time ago. Yeah, which is that if you 1:16:19.560 --> 1:16:24.800 can find, for example, some Syrian rebels who are shitty 1:16:24.840 --> 1:16:28.040 and Islamists or whatever, you can tar every single person 1:16:28.120 --> 1:16:31.120 whoever stood up against Bashar al assad as A as 1:16:31.120 --> 1:16:34.920 a terrorist UM, which is really easy, especially if you're 1:16:34.920 --> 1:16:40.120 getting paid Kremlin money to advance that line and you 1:16:40.120 --> 1:16:44.880 your name is Ben Norton. This brings us to the 1:16:44.920 --> 1:16:48.280 place where there really aren't clear answers, which is like 1:16:48.720 --> 1:16:50.760 what can be done? And it is one of those 1:16:50.760 --> 1:16:54.880 things where it's like, well, uh, that's not an easy question, 1:16:54.960 --> 1:16:57.439 because you do have to when you start grappling with 1:16:57.479 --> 1:17:00.800 like all right, well, like should what should NATO do? 1:17:00.920 --> 1:17:04.040 What should other European non NATO nations do? Like what 1:17:04.040 --> 1:17:09.840 what what is actually capable of? Like potentially altering or 1:17:09.880 --> 1:17:13.160 disrupting the courses of action here while we're talking about 1:17:13.200 --> 1:17:16.400 the Russian state, which has a lot of nukes. Um, 1:17:16.520 --> 1:17:19.240 we're talking about a situation that could spiral out of 1:17:19.280 --> 1:17:23.040 control in a way that very few situations globally are 1:17:23.120 --> 1:17:26.360 capable of potentially spiring spiraling out of control. And so 1:17:26.400 --> 1:17:30.080 it is a not a situation where anyone who tells 1:17:30.120 --> 1:17:32.960 you this is clearly the thing to do that will work, 1:17:33.200 --> 1:17:36.000 is I think trying to is probably full of ship 1:17:36.120 --> 1:17:39.400 and a little unhinged um because this is a real 1:17:39.520 --> 1:17:44.920 fucking ugly one. Um. But some of what has been done, Um, 1:17:45.040 --> 1:17:46.960 we just got the news today that I think we 1:17:47.080 --> 1:17:49.240 both found surprising, but it is very positive that the 1:17:49.280 --> 1:17:53.679 Germans have canceled construction of the Nord Stream to pipeline, 1:17:53.720 --> 1:17:57.680 which is a gas pipeline from Russia into the EU. 1:17:57.880 --> 1:18:00.760 Um that a lot of folks were saying Germany was 1:18:00.800 --> 1:18:03.679 not going to take any sort of stances, solid stances 1:18:03.680 --> 1:18:07.520 on Ukraine's behalf because of that pipeline, because of how Germany, 1:18:07.560 --> 1:18:10.519 along with a lot of Western Europe, is tremendously reliant 1:18:10.560 --> 1:18:13.799 upon Russian gas exports, um for just like keeping themselves 1:18:13.800 --> 1:18:18.080 heated in the winter. UM, so that's a positive move. 1:18:18.280 --> 1:18:21.840 I I tend to be critical of the ability of 1:18:21.880 --> 1:18:25.280 sanctions to do much. UM. And if we're looking historically 1:18:25.280 --> 1:18:28.800 at sanctions, particularly to how they're most often implied, they 1:18:28.840 --> 1:18:31.519 have a tendency to just harm regular people more than 1:18:31.560 --> 1:18:32.720 they have to do it. Like we can look at 1:18:32.720 --> 1:18:35.960 the sanctions in Iraq right which which were part of 1:18:36.000 --> 1:18:39.960 why something like a million people starved. Um. We are 1:18:40.000 --> 1:18:42.840 talking about different kinds of sanctions in general, and we're 1:18:42.840 --> 1:18:45.960 talking about the sanctions being imposed by NATO countries against 1:18:46.000 --> 1:18:49.559 the Russian state right now. They're largely sanctions against members 1:18:49.640 --> 1:18:53.840 of the Duma. UM, There's there's a lot. It's not 1:18:54.040 --> 1:18:56.439 the same as looking at like what was being done 1:18:56.640 --> 1:19:00.840 to Saddam's Iraq. That said, I'm still very hesitant to 1:19:00.880 --> 1:19:03.880 say I think that sanctions are going to disrupt Putin's 1:19:03.960 --> 1:19:07.160 course of action. I'm curious what you think can and 1:19:07.240 --> 1:19:10.760 should be done here, you know, like what is do 1:19:10.800 --> 1:19:12.679 you have any kind of clear idea in your own 1:19:12.680 --> 1:19:16.120 head about what might have a disruptive effect on on 1:19:16.160 --> 1:19:19.840 what Putin is doing? Learned to teleport and shoot Putin 1:19:19.840 --> 1:19:22.280 in the head with a nimillionator. I mean that would 1:19:22.280 --> 1:19:25.800 be that'd be great. There's there's a can we that 1:19:25.840 --> 1:19:29.719 tear had we that teleportation capacity, there would be a list. 1:19:29.960 --> 1:19:35.960 You know, put my skill points into that. But realistically speaking, 1:19:37.120 --> 1:19:39.920 the Russian state is authitarian. It doesn't really care what 1:19:39.960 --> 1:19:42.200 its own citizens think. It definitely doesn't care what other 1:19:42.240 --> 1:19:47.240 people think. However, Um, Russia has been, at least in 1:19:48.439 --> 1:19:54.400 um the modern realm, relatively image conscious. UM. Which is 1:19:55.520 --> 1:19:58.599 why I think one thing that could work, for example 1:19:58.960 --> 1:20:03.519 or not, could work, but would perhaps force the Russian 1:20:03.600 --> 1:20:07.040 state to consider its actions a little bit more carefully. 1:20:07.160 --> 1:20:09.320 And I want to be very clear when I talk 1:20:09.360 --> 1:20:12.679 about the Russian state, I'm talking about Putin himself. Yeah, 1:20:12.720 --> 1:20:18.479 the government. He has no there's no like other decision 1:20:18.520 --> 1:20:23.000 makers in Russia. And that was actually perfectly encapsulated um 1:20:23.080 --> 1:20:26.559 during his speech the other day where he just outright, 1:20:27.160 --> 1:20:31.120 um like eviscerated the head of his foreign intelligence service. 1:20:31.640 --> 1:20:34.640 I'm live TV for the whole world to see just 1:20:35.040 --> 1:20:39.160 utterly humiliated the guy for no real reason, just because 1:20:39.160 --> 1:20:42.320 he can and you could see that. And we're talking 1:20:42.400 --> 1:20:48.440 about Russia's top spy. I mean, beyond Puttin himself stammering 1:20:48.640 --> 1:20:52.120 like a frightened school child when Puttin addressed him, just 1:20:52.880 --> 1:20:55.560 with just a hint of sharpness. Um. So when I 1:20:55.600 --> 1:20:58.439 say to the Russian state, I'm referring literally to the 1:20:58.479 --> 1:21:05.160 body in prison of of Vladiman Prune Um. And like, honestly, yeah, 1:21:05.200 --> 1:21:07.600 I would love to see people pick at Russian embassies 1:21:07.640 --> 1:21:12.720 and make demonstrations and marches and so on. Um. Do 1:21:12.840 --> 1:21:16.840 I think that will have a practical real effect, to 1:21:16.880 --> 1:21:20.240 be honest, No, say with the sanctions. Um, I'm sure 1:21:20.280 --> 1:21:24.880 Putin's pet oligarchs and members of his party and the 1:21:25.840 --> 1:21:30.800 uh the people that in theory keep him in power. Um, 1:21:30.920 --> 1:21:36.200 the oligarchs, the the polimentarians, the mafia lords and so on. 1:21:36.600 --> 1:21:39.200 I'm sure they're gonna be pretty mift if their yachts 1:21:39.200 --> 1:21:42.599 and their multimillion dollar properties in Miami and New York, 1:21:42.600 --> 1:21:46.200 in London and the villasm the French Riviera when when 1:21:46.200 --> 1:21:50.320 all that gets taken, I'm sure they'll they'll be pretty annoyed. Um. 1:21:50.320 --> 1:21:53.519 But I don't think Putin cares. I think that he 1:21:53.680 --> 1:22:01.080 has a really irrational um desire to subjugate Eve specifically, Um. 1:22:01.160 --> 1:22:06.280 He sees Kiev as um what we call in Russian, 1:22:06.320 --> 1:22:10.040 the mother of all Russian cities. Yeah, it's the um 1:22:10.200 --> 1:22:13.679 the place of the Kievan Ruce. Yeah, the word Russian 1:22:13.760 --> 1:22:17.000 comes from Kievan Ruce, you know, exactly exactly. And I 1:22:17.120 --> 1:22:21.839 just don't think that Putin is going to turn away 1:22:21.880 --> 1:22:26.000 from that goal because a couple of his buddies are 1:22:26.040 --> 1:22:28.720 complaining that they're mega yachts got taken in by the 1:22:28.720 --> 1:22:32.040 British authorities or whatever. Nor do I think they're gonna 1:22:32.200 --> 1:22:34.080 care that. You know, there are a couple of marchers 1:22:34.080 --> 1:22:37.479 outside of embassies in New Yorker something. Um, but that 1:22:37.560 --> 1:22:40.559 may help spur the world as a whole, the international 1:22:40.600 --> 1:22:44.960 community into taking a harder line stance against because Simeon 1:22:45.000 --> 1:22:47.719 comes time and again. Um, Like, the guy's a gangster, 1:22:48.000 --> 1:22:50.639 he's he's like a security service thug. If you've ever 1:22:51.320 --> 1:22:56.320 like interacted with like a petty like sergeant, police sergeant 1:22:56.400 --> 1:22:59.679 or something that has just a bit of authority and 1:23:00.000 --> 1:23:03.720 prety much show imunity that that's put into a te um. 1:23:03.800 --> 1:23:10.160 The dude thinks he's over educated, uh and the cleverest nimble, Yeah, 1:23:10.200 --> 1:23:12.040 I think, But for really the way he talks, in 1:23:12.080 --> 1:23:14.880 the way he's acts, he's just a bully. He's he's 1:23:14.960 --> 1:23:17.840 he's got the same basic personality as like Villan Wether, 1:23:18.040 --> 1:23:21.679 you know, the fucking head of the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department. 1:23:21.720 --> 1:23:24.320 He's like, not like a beat cop, but like one 1:23:24.360 --> 1:23:26.400 of the cops who rises to run a union or 1:23:26.439 --> 1:23:31.439 run a city police department. Yeah, he's good at consolidating power. 1:23:31.520 --> 1:23:35.360 He's good at at exercising organizing others to exercise violence 1:23:35.400 --> 1:23:37.439 on his behalf. But yeah, at the end of the day, 1:23:37.439 --> 1:23:43.280 he is primarily a bully. And it's one of those Um, 1:23:43.400 --> 1:23:48.080 I don't know, Like, when it comes to arms shipments, 1:23:48.120 --> 1:23:52.400 that is a historically Again, if you look at the 1:23:52.479 --> 1:23:57.000 history of partic like let's just say specifically NATO shipping 1:23:57.080 --> 1:24:00.639 arms places most of the time, that does not improve 1:24:00.920 --> 1:24:03.599 the situation for people in that country. That that has 1:24:03.640 --> 1:24:06.400 been a historical reality of arms Shipment's not just with 1:24:06.479 --> 1:24:09.040 NATO as a general rule everywhere, when you ship more 1:24:09.080 --> 1:24:14.240 guns into an area, that that rarely improves quality of life. Um. 1:24:14.280 --> 1:24:18.559 But we are not talking about a country that has 1:24:18.600 --> 1:24:23.880 had any kind of centralized political legitimacy or what not collapse. 1:24:23.880 --> 1:24:25.240 You're not talking about a country that is in the 1:24:25.320 --> 1:24:30.400 middle of tearing itself apart between thirty or forty different sides. Um, 1:24:30.439 --> 1:24:33.559 it's not the same situation as well, let's ship a 1:24:33.560 --> 1:24:36.800 bunch of guns to Libya, you know. Um. It just 1:24:36.960 --> 1:24:41.400 isn't there different histories, different political realities on the ground. 1:24:41.760 --> 1:24:43.920 I don't know that I actually think any amount of 1:24:44.000 --> 1:24:49.320 arms shipments would dissuade Putin from advancing either. Um. But 1:24:49.520 --> 1:24:53.280 I I don't know what else to do. I certainly 1:24:53.280 --> 1:24:55.559 am not against the idea of like, Okay, guys have 1:24:55.680 --> 1:24:57.160 some A G T M s, you know, have some 1:24:57.200 --> 1:25:01.320 wire guided missiles, have some javelins, um, because like, what 1:25:01.360 --> 1:25:03.800 else are you gonna do? Um? I mean, we're not 1:25:03.880 --> 1:25:06.479 going to and I'm certainly not saying we should send 1:25:06.560 --> 1:25:10.240 US troops in um because again we have to consider 1:25:10.280 --> 1:25:14.479 the nuclear situation too. UM. What do you think is? 1:25:15.400 --> 1:25:18.040 Where are your thoughts there? Um? Because this is something 1:25:18.040 --> 1:25:21.280 that I I'm very I'm very mixed on, although again 1:25:21.280 --> 1:25:24.320 I'm broadly fine with Yeah, I mean, at least give 1:25:24.360 --> 1:25:30.480 people the ability to fight back. Yeah, it's a difficult one, especially, 1:25:31.640 --> 1:25:35.120 like you noted, the military industrial complex has very rarely 1:25:35.160 --> 1:25:39.479 improved any situation the world anywhere. Yep, this might be 1:25:39.520 --> 1:25:42.880 one of the few exceptions, UM, because the fact is 1:25:43.200 --> 1:25:47.280 that Ukraine doesn't really have the tools to defend these 1:25:47.600 --> 1:25:50.960 to defend ourselves we have, UM, or at least our 1:25:51.280 --> 1:25:53.599 government claims that we have the strongest army in Europe, which, 1:25:53.680 --> 1:25:55.800 to be honest, with all the defense cuts that Europe 1:25:55.840 --> 1:25:59.200 can come, that may be true at least on the 1:25:59.240 --> 1:26:04.439 ground sense. Certainly the most combat experienced army in here. Yeah, absolutely, UM. 1:26:04.479 --> 1:26:07.439 But what we lack entirely is air power and air 1:26:07.479 --> 1:26:11.519 defense UM. And what Russia has in spades is air 1:26:11.520 --> 1:26:15.240 power and air defense. And as we saw UM when 1:26:15.360 --> 1:26:20.920 the US invaded Rock, Well, you can destroy conventional army 1:26:21.000 --> 1:26:24.000 in a couple of days by just bombing the ship 1:26:24.080 --> 1:26:27.559 out of it uh. And the Russians have quite a 1:26:27.560 --> 1:26:32.160 few missiles UM aimed straight at Kiev and quite a 1:26:32.200 --> 1:26:35.439 view planes waiting on standby, I presume to bomb the 1:26:35.439 --> 1:26:38.320 ship out of Kiev. Uh. And it would be nice 1:26:38.360 --> 1:26:42.960 to have some way to to defend ourselves against that UM. 1:26:43.000 --> 1:26:46.240 But again there's there's not much that can be sent. Yeah. 1:26:46.280 --> 1:26:49.280 Of course stingers and javelins and so on, UM. That 1:26:49.400 --> 1:26:53.160 will all help raise the costs of the occupation that 1:26:53.240 --> 1:26:58.360 follows the initial bombardment But if Putin goes for the 1:26:58.400 --> 1:27:02.360 strategy that Assade has used in Syria, which is bomb 1:27:02.400 --> 1:27:05.680 the living ship out of every civilian residential area in 1:27:05.680 --> 1:27:10.800 the city until the people just submit or are all dead, um, well, 1:27:10.840 --> 1:27:13.080 there's not really too much we can do about that. 1:27:13.680 --> 1:27:19.080 And that is like, there is a lot that individual 1:27:19.560 --> 1:27:23.160 that that trained and motivated soldiers with small arms and 1:27:23.240 --> 1:27:28.320 munitions like javelins can do even to resist a country 1:27:28.520 --> 1:27:32.880 with with overwhelming air power. The corollary to that is 1:27:32.960 --> 1:27:37.080 that in doing that a lot of stuff, everyone around 1:27:37.080 --> 1:27:40.280 them dies, the city is turned into a graveyard. Um. 1:27:40.320 --> 1:27:44.240 I've I've seen that with my own eyes, and that's 1:27:44.920 --> 1:27:47.280 that's I mean, got to be the thing if you're 1:27:47.320 --> 1:27:49.960 looking at this with any kind of reasonable lies and 1:27:50.040 --> 1:27:53.120 not just like trying to find a political angle to 1:27:53.160 --> 1:27:56.240 support that has to be your main concern is that 1:27:56.920 --> 1:28:00.360 the potential here is for a tremendous loss of life 1:28:00.520 --> 1:28:04.799 and also for the creation of millions of refugees. Um. 1:28:04.840 --> 1:28:09.040 And this is something in another of audio clip that 1:28:09.080 --> 1:28:12.160 you published a bit earlier on Twitter you say, which 1:28:12.160 --> 1:28:15.720 is that like, if this goes as badly as it can, 1:28:16.080 --> 1:28:21.960 no matter what your politics are, this will become your problem. Yeah, 1:28:22.240 --> 1:28:26.120 I stand behind that absolutely, because there are a lot 1:28:26.120 --> 1:28:31.920 of Ukrainians and while most of us have no desire 1:28:32.000 --> 1:28:35.280 to live under the Russian yoke, the majority of us 1:28:35.280 --> 1:28:39.320 are not trained fighters. Were just people, just regular people. 1:28:39.320 --> 1:28:42.840 And I know, especially in the US, UM, with our 1:28:43.360 --> 1:28:48.200 like out of control gun culture, imagining like they're the 1:28:48.560 --> 1:28:52.760 singular guy, you know, they're they're the macho man with 1:28:52.760 --> 1:28:56.120 with all the guns, take down the government all by themselves. 1:28:57.360 --> 1:28:59.720 I'm sorry, it's a fantasy. It's a fiction. Um, that 1:28:59.840 --> 1:29:03.800 is how things work. Uh. And quite frankly, most people 1:29:03.920 --> 1:29:08.519 are not psychologically suited to combat. That's why armies take 1:29:08.600 --> 1:29:10.800 so long to break soldiers down to teach them to 1:29:10.880 --> 1:29:13.719 murder people, because that is not something humans do naturally. 1:29:13.920 --> 1:29:18.080 And the majority of people subjected to that kind of 1:29:18.160 --> 1:29:21.719 violence will run. And again, there are forty four million 1:29:21.880 --> 1:29:24.479 of us, and they will run and run and run. 1:29:24.920 --> 1:29:27.400 Pretty much everyone in the world. You saw this with Syria, 1:29:27.600 --> 1:29:30.680 sell this with Libya. Um, you've seen this pretty much 1:29:30.720 --> 1:29:33.479 with every single place that has experienced massive violence in 1:29:33.479 --> 1:29:37.519 the modern world. Um, that's the reaction. Yeah, and that's 1:29:37.560 --> 1:29:40.320 when we run. We bring all of our biases and 1:29:40.360 --> 1:29:47.559 problems and cultural predilections to you m hm. And it's yeah, 1:29:47.600 --> 1:29:50.639 I mean that's that's really that out to end on 1:29:50.880 --> 1:29:54.280 and it is you get a lot of folks you 1:29:54.320 --> 1:29:58.320 know who who rightly you know, focus on and think 1:29:58.320 --> 1:30:01.400 a lot about revolutionary struggles in places like Vietnam and 1:30:02.160 --> 1:30:05.120 um in an Afghanistan and will point out that like, well, 1:30:05.640 --> 1:30:10.840 you don't need to have as advanced to military as 1:30:10.880 --> 1:30:15.599 your opponent to win. And again, just the corollary to that, all, Yeah, 1:30:15.800 --> 1:30:18.600 the corollary to that is that like, yeah, but millions 1:30:19.000 --> 1:30:22.439 of people die. Millions of people died in Afghanistan, millions 1:30:22.439 --> 1:30:26.519 of people died in Vietnam. Um, that's that, that is 1:30:26.560 --> 1:30:29.640 the reality. Yeah, you can resist an imperial power with 1:30:29.720 --> 1:30:33.599 minimal technology, but you're not going to leave that fight 1:30:33.680 --> 1:30:37.479 with a family alive still, you know, Like that's that's 1:30:37.520 --> 1:30:42.040 how it goes. Um. So let's all say a little 1:30:42.560 --> 1:30:48.439 prayer for I don't know, peace, Uh, I hope the 1:30:49.760 --> 1:30:54.920 worst doesn't happen. Um. What has there been kind of 1:30:55.080 --> 1:30:59.439 mobilization that you've seen within the the activist the anarchist 1:30:59.439 --> 1:31:03.040 community and in Kiev, um to you know, any kind 1:31:03.080 --> 1:31:04.680 of mutual aid stuff like or is it just one 1:31:04.720 --> 1:31:08.240 of those situations where it hasn't started happening yet and 1:31:08.280 --> 1:31:10.479 nobody really knows what would even be useful to do 1:31:10.840 --> 1:31:15.840 if it does. I'll say this, Um, it may come 1:31:15.880 --> 1:31:19.240 as a little bit of a shock, but anarchists not 1:31:19.640 --> 1:31:26.040 typically the best organised. Yeah. Um. Specifically, like a lot 1:31:26.240 --> 1:31:29.439 of my UH friends who are active in the anarchist 1:31:29.960 --> 1:31:34.240 um movement in Ukraine have simply joined the territorial defense 1:31:34.280 --> 1:31:40.960 battalions or the regular army and will simply fight as soldiers. Um. 1:31:41.120 --> 1:31:45.920 There has been a very strong I don't know if 1:31:45.960 --> 1:31:49.800 you called denial um. A colleague of mine used the 1:31:49.880 --> 1:31:52.160 term doomed optimism, and I really like the side of that, 1:31:52.240 --> 1:31:54.080 so let's go with that. Yeah, there's been this really 1:31:54.120 --> 1:31:57.000 strong doomed optimism amongst Ukrainians that the worst will not 1:31:57.080 --> 1:32:00.120 happen and there's no real reason to prepare for anything, 1:32:00.240 --> 1:32:03.880 because well, things are going to be fine. Um. And 1:32:04.000 --> 1:32:06.519 that's what our government tells us as well, things are 1:32:06.560 --> 1:32:09.880 going to be fine. They don't see any massive attack 1:32:09.960 --> 1:32:12.320 groups or I mean, I feel like that's contradicted by 1:32:12.560 --> 1:32:14.519 the the open source intelligence that I've been looking at. 1:32:15.040 --> 1:32:18.800 But I I am just one guy. I obviously don't 1:32:18.840 --> 1:32:23.680 have the intelligence apparatus of a nation state. UM. So 1:32:23.840 --> 1:32:28.400 I mean maybe they're right, Um, but generally speaking, people 1:32:28.439 --> 1:32:35.000 have just been joining the army, going to um tactical trainings. Um. 1:32:35.040 --> 1:32:37.639 But this is all very basic stuff like going the woods, 1:32:38.080 --> 1:32:41.200 learn how to set up camp and you know, clean 1:32:41.240 --> 1:32:44.840 a rifle kind of kind of things. Um. Nothing like 1:32:44.920 --> 1:32:47.920 combat training, because where would you get that except by 1:32:48.000 --> 1:32:50.200 joining the army and going to the front. Yeah, it's 1:32:50.200 --> 1:32:52.599 the kind of training that might keep in the event 1:32:52.640 --> 1:32:54.599 of a full conflict when out of ten of those 1:32:54.600 --> 1:32:56.720 people alive long enough to learn how to fight. Yeah, 1:32:56.760 --> 1:32:59.519 and and that might be worth it. Yeah, I mean yeah, 1:32:59.560 --> 1:33:02.599 if you're talking about like yes, not not to say 1:33:02.720 --> 1:33:06.519 people shouldn't be doing that, because people should do whatever 1:33:06.560 --> 1:33:10.880 they can. Um, how are you kind of a close 1:33:10.880 --> 1:33:15.559 out like as this Like doom scrolling is the thing 1:33:15.560 --> 1:33:17.760 we all talk about, and there's there's plenty image just 1:33:17.760 --> 1:33:20.200 sitting here in Portland. We just had a mass shooting 1:33:20.200 --> 1:33:22.000 on a protest this weekend, and so there's a lot 1:33:22.040 --> 1:33:24.720 of doom scrolling going on in my community. But we're 1:33:24.720 --> 1:33:26.760 not staring down the barrel of a hundred and ninety 1:33:26.840 --> 1:33:31.559 thousand soldiers you know, potentially uh, hitting us from the 1:33:31.600 --> 1:33:35.760 air and ground simultaneously. How do you How are you 1:33:35.840 --> 1:33:39.439 like focusing on the stuff that you can do anything 1:33:39.439 --> 1:33:42.719 about and the stuff that you can productively handle without 1:33:43.040 --> 1:33:48.760 losing yourself in that obvious amounts of cannabis. That's good. 1:33:48.760 --> 1:33:53.160 I'm glad you guys have decent pod access. Yeah. I 1:33:53.200 --> 1:33:55.640 actually don't know what I'll do if, um, if my 1:33:55.760 --> 1:34:00.400 current supplies got out to be quite honest, um, but 1:34:00.800 --> 1:34:07.080 I mean it's been definitely a struggle. Um. And the 1:34:07.240 --> 1:34:10.120 past couple of days, especially my mental health has not 1:34:10.240 --> 1:34:19.160 been especially great. Um. But again, I'm one dude. Like, 1:34:19.560 --> 1:34:22.479 I'm not in very good shape. I have or vision, 1:34:22.560 --> 1:34:25.120 one of my eyes don't work, I'm diabetic. Like, I'm 1:34:25.160 --> 1:34:27.439 not gonna go out and grab a rifle and start 1:34:27.520 --> 1:34:30.479 killing every rooskie I see, you know. Um. But at 1:34:30.479 --> 1:34:32.439 the same time, I've got a job to do. I 1:34:33.640 --> 1:34:37.639 as an English language journalist in Ukraine. Um, I have 1:34:38.160 --> 1:34:41.080 this is your busy season, Yeah, it's my busies. Like 1:34:42.439 --> 1:34:44.920 one of my jobs is to counter Russian distin information 1:34:45.120 --> 1:34:48.640 and too like tell people the truth of what is 1:34:48.640 --> 1:34:52.200 going on here. Um, And that role will only get 1:34:52.280 --> 1:34:58.040 more important if the the conflict expands, um from from 1:34:58.120 --> 1:35:01.120 the scope that it is now. Uh so how am 1:35:01.160 --> 1:35:05.560 I doing? Well? I'm still alive, um, having off myself 1:35:06.800 --> 1:35:11.559 and uh I'm still I'm still working. So I think 1:35:11.600 --> 1:35:14.160 as as good as I can be under the circumstances. 1:35:14.479 --> 1:35:19.160 Yeah yeah, UM, well I hope your weeds supply stays 1:35:19.160 --> 1:35:25.000 stable um at the very fucking fingers. Yeah. Um. All right, Well, 1:35:25.120 --> 1:35:27.880 thank you so much for coming on the show, Romeo. UM, 1:35:27.920 --> 1:35:29.400 do you have anything you want to plug kind of 1:35:29.400 --> 1:35:32.719 as we as we go out here? Um, just if 1:35:32.840 --> 1:35:37.000 you really want to know about what's going down in Ukraine, 1:35:37.680 --> 1:35:40.519 I am co host of the podcast called Ukraine Without 1:35:40.600 --> 1:35:44.120 Hype and find it on any podcast platform. Um. And 1:35:44.160 --> 1:35:47.280 if you really want to get a look out what's 1:35:47.280 --> 1:35:50.960 going on in English um with only a tinge of 1:35:51.040 --> 1:35:55.559 leftist bias, um, then tune in. You can follow us 1:35:55.560 --> 1:35:59.120 on Twitter Hype Ukrane um and again on any podcast 1:35:59.200 --> 1:36:03.360 platform that you use. So it is later awesome, Well 1:36:03.680 --> 1:36:09.280 check out Romeo there, check out this podcast, and you know, 1:36:09.680 --> 1:36:12.599 just try to keep your eyes on the situation and 1:36:13.200 --> 1:36:18.360 don't let yourself be uh overwhelmed by what some random 1:36:18.400 --> 1:36:21.640 person on Twitter tries to sum it up. As you know, 1:36:21.840 --> 1:36:39.880 people are more complicated than that. It could happen here 1:36:40.800 --> 1:36:46.160 coming to you live from my room in Chicago. But 1:36:46.160 --> 1:36:48.920 but importantly we were coming to your life, and it 1:36:48.960 --> 1:36:52.200 could happen here Central where the gamers have seized the pod. 1:36:52.880 --> 1:36:57.120 It is me, Christopher, it is Garrison. Hello, fellow gamer. Hello, 1:37:00.080 --> 1:37:03.920 and in the gaming trenches with my razor headset on, 1:37:04.520 --> 1:37:08.840 looking into my uh the video powered view flinder, and 1:37:08.880 --> 1:37:12.120 I'm ready to continue on the fight. It's gonna be great. 1:37:12.120 --> 1:37:16.120 We're talking about talking about gaming, We're talking about the military, 1:37:16.160 --> 1:37:18.040 we're talking about why the two of them crossing is 1:37:18.080 --> 1:37:22.360 extremely bad. And uh, with us to talk about this 1:37:22.920 --> 1:37:28.080 are two people who are somewhat less clownish than we are. Um. 1:37:28.120 --> 1:37:30.599 This is Katie and Chris from Gamish for Peace, which 1:37:30.640 --> 1:37:33.360 is an initiative of Vesterans for Peace. We welcome to 1:37:33.400 --> 1:37:37.679 the show. Hello, Hey, thank you. I take offensive being 1:37:37.920 --> 1:37:41.640 called less clownish, and I'm just trying to live up 1:37:41.640 --> 1:37:44.679 to your standard. I'll have you know. I am very 1:37:44.760 --> 1:37:47.720 very clownish and clumsy and all of those good things. 1:37:47.720 --> 1:37:55.840 And he trusted me with weapons. Oh god, So I 1:37:55.920 --> 1:38:02.439 guess starting out, I want to talk about I guess 1:38:02.640 --> 1:38:05.920 very generally the history of counter recruitment, because this is 1:38:05.920 --> 1:38:08.799 something that's been going on in the U. S. Military 1:38:09.160 --> 1:38:11.800 for I mean, it really is like from from what 1:38:11.840 --> 1:38:13.519 I could tell, like about as long as there's been 1:38:13.720 --> 1:38:17.240 you know, recruitment for the military. But I was wondering 1:38:17.280 --> 1:38:20.599 if we could start I don't know, maybe maybe maybe 1:38:20.600 --> 1:38:24.000 around sort of the Vietnam era when you when there's 1:38:24.160 --> 1:38:27.519 you know, very very serious and intense sort of left 1:38:27.560 --> 1:38:30.960 wing kind of recruitment, and then we can go from there. Yeah. Yeah. 1:38:31.120 --> 1:38:36.040 So coming out of Vietnam, you have Vietnam veterans against 1:38:36.040 --> 1:38:41.719 the war forming, uh, and there's a massive pushback on uh, 1:38:41.880 --> 1:38:45.000 the draft. Uh. The anti war movement is pretty much 1:38:45.040 --> 1:38:48.760 at its strongest, and Vietnam veterans against the war over 1:38:48.840 --> 1:38:52.880 time becomes a veteran for peace. Veterans for Peace has 1:38:52.920 --> 1:38:55.679 a long legacy of sitting at the front of the 1:38:55.720 --> 1:39:01.479 anti war movement peace movement, participating in nuclear abolition work, 1:39:01.920 --> 1:39:06.240 kind of recruitment work, the escalation work out of Save 1:39:06.280 --> 1:39:09.759 Our v A, helping veterans get assistance with disability benefits, 1:39:09.800 --> 1:39:14.360 and making sure that the traumas that veterans suffer and 1:39:14.400 --> 1:39:19.000 the communities of UM impacted by the military suffer are 1:39:19.120 --> 1:39:24.479 getting treatment for the care UH deported veterans because Vietnam 1:39:24.600 --> 1:39:27.559 that's served and then got deported and that continues to 1:39:27.640 --> 1:39:32.479 this day. UH SO Veterans for Peace at a multi 1:39:32.479 --> 1:39:38.160 pronged approached, the anti war efforts UH and UH two 1:39:38.200 --> 1:39:44.679 thousands around UH two thousand seven, Ish Iraq Afghanistan Iraq 1:39:44.760 --> 1:39:47.599 Veterans against the War later known as Iraq Afghanistan Veterans 1:39:47.640 --> 1:39:49.599 Against the War comes along, and that's a new generation 1:39:49.640 --> 1:39:53.759 of veterans carrying along built on the legacy of Veterans 1:39:53.760 --> 1:39:57.400 for Peace and being non veterans against the war. UM. 1:39:57.400 --> 1:40:00.479 You know, there's a long history of Coffee ops g 1:40:00.680 --> 1:40:07.200 I Resistance, UM Outreach doing work with veterans, trying consciences, 1:40:07.320 --> 1:40:12.040 objective object or work UM g I resisted work in 1:40:12.040 --> 1:40:14.479 in there, and there's just a long legacy of just 1:40:15.200 --> 1:40:19.920 betteran sharing their experiences and coming back and really ah 1:40:20.080 --> 1:40:22.840 wanting to make sure nobody else goes through that and 1:40:22.880 --> 1:40:24.960 making sure that they get the help they need and 1:40:25.040 --> 1:40:28.599 kind of slow that that beat of the war drune 1:40:28.840 --> 1:40:31.640 that seems to media seems to always be picking up. 1:40:32.960 --> 1:40:38.519 And that's where we came in. That's definitely a good 1:40:38.520 --> 1:40:41.799 way to put it now, especially born out of the pandemic, 1:40:41.840 --> 1:40:44.280 a lot of the recruiting had to move online. They 1:40:44.360 --> 1:40:46.720 didn't really have if they wanted to keep recruiting, they 1:40:46.720 --> 1:40:49.519 had to go online, and that's where a majority of 1:40:49.560 --> 1:40:52.200 the newest generation is they are watching Twitch. Twitch had 1:40:52.240 --> 1:40:57.040 a viewership like pretty much competing with Netflix streaming UM 1:40:57.080 --> 1:40:59.120 as of this summer, and I'm sure that hasn't really 1:40:59.160 --> 1:41:01.920 changed much. I'm sure it is just as popular UM 1:41:02.040 --> 1:41:04.439 and the audience for Twitch skews very young. So that's 1:41:04.439 --> 1:41:08.040 really what started to worry members of Veterans for Peace, like, Okay, 1:41:08.080 --> 1:41:11.520 we might need to ramp up truth and recruitment UM initiatives, 1:41:11.520 --> 1:41:14.360 which is what Games for Peace came out of. Because 1:41:14.400 --> 1:41:17.240 the thing is, if you're forming a paras social relationship 1:41:17.280 --> 1:41:20.960 with these younger kids by streaming and forming those laserships, 1:41:21.080 --> 1:41:23.920 getting them on discord and talking to them, you're getting 1:41:23.920 --> 1:41:26.479 a one sided view of what military services about, and 1:41:26.520 --> 1:41:31.200 you are definitely not getting the uh, imperialist informed viewpoint 1:41:31.360 --> 1:41:34.519 for sure. UM. So Venemans for Peace kind of came 1:41:34.520 --> 1:41:39.360 out of that. That's like very insidious looking, uh, hidden 1:41:39.560 --> 1:41:42.840 and subtle way of of recruiting using the video games 1:41:42.880 --> 1:41:45.680 that have already historically been used for recruiting purposes. So 1:41:45.720 --> 1:41:48.200 it's like a double it's like a double whammy that 1:41:48.280 --> 1:41:51.320 got on us there for those not inundated in the 1:41:51.600 --> 1:41:55.400 game or warfare like we are. Um, how let's I 1:41:55.400 --> 1:41:57.720 think we should briefly describe what twitches because I know 1:41:57.760 --> 1:42:02.000 a lot of people probably probably isn't actually away of 1:42:02.000 --> 1:42:04.760 of Twitch. That's the words we are down in these 1:42:04.800 --> 1:42:13.800 trenches finding off the cyber net stop. Um. Yeah, So 1:42:13.840 --> 1:42:16.600 I guess twitches like a live stream platform that is 1:42:16.600 --> 1:42:21.200 primarily used for live streaming people playing video games, and 1:42:21.439 --> 1:42:24.320 people kind of help their own like brands and like 1:42:24.400 --> 1:42:28.080 personalities and like para social relationships with an audience via 1:42:28.120 --> 1:42:30.440 them playing these games and kind of adding their commentary, 1:42:31.040 --> 1:42:33.240 you know, variety of games. You know, sometimes it's like 1:42:33.280 --> 1:42:36.320 mostly chatting with people like inside like a group chat 1:42:36.320 --> 1:42:38.600 while playing a game. Um, or you know, it's some 1:42:38.600 --> 1:42:42.519 of more focused on the game itself. It kind of varies, 1:42:42.600 --> 1:42:44.840 but yeah, it's a it's a it's it's arguably the 1:42:44.880 --> 1:42:47.120 biggest live streaming platform. I think it was brought by 1:42:47.120 --> 1:42:51.439 Amazon a few years ago. Um. And yes, there is 1:42:51.479 --> 1:42:54.400 a there is a US there's a there's a few 1:42:54.479 --> 1:42:58.640 US like military channels on there that are actually like 1:42:59.240 --> 1:43:02.479 relatively popular. Um. I guess the other thing to kind 1:43:02.479 --> 1:43:05.439 of get into for some background is, like you mentioned, 1:43:05.479 --> 1:43:08.200 you already kind of alluded to this, like the history 1:43:08.320 --> 1:43:12.880 of the U. S Military using video games for propaganda 1:43:12.920 --> 1:43:15.840 because they've been they've been one of like the earliest 1:43:15.840 --> 1:43:19.479 funders of games for this reason, I think getting into 1:43:19.560 --> 1:43:23.320 that history is like interesting, um, and something that some 1:43:23.360 --> 1:43:25.800 people are definitely aware of, but a lot of times 1:43:25.800 --> 1:43:28.960 can get overlooked, despite you know, Call of Duty being 1:43:29.160 --> 1:43:32.839 one of the biggest video game franchises in the world. Yeah. Absolutely, 1:43:32.920 --> 1:43:37.360 the military is involvement in video game video can design 1:43:37.800 --> 1:43:40.840 using as recruitment, using it primary Initially, at first it 1:43:40.960 --> 1:43:43.639 was thought of as a training tool and they started 1:43:43.680 --> 1:43:46.439 looking at it for training. Um. If you think back 1:43:46.479 --> 1:43:50.800 to like early nineties Doom, the original Doom had a 1:43:50.960 --> 1:43:56.160 mod released called the Marine Mod. It was a modification 1:43:56.240 --> 1:43:59.360 designed for the Marine Corps to use to train marines 1:43:59.400 --> 1:44:02.120 in as early the early nineties when Doom was at 1:44:02.120 --> 1:44:05.760 its height. And then then that grows from there. You 1:44:05.840 --> 1:44:09.280 have first to fight, Uh, what is it. UH. Game 1:44:09.280 --> 1:44:12.519 called First to Fight features Marine Corps marines and dress 1:44:12.560 --> 1:44:16.960 Blues where you're tactically UH fighting a battle in UM 1:44:17.120 --> 1:44:19.120 in which you never want to do. If you know 1:44:19.160 --> 1:44:21.360 anything about the Marine Corps Blues, you do not want 1:44:21.400 --> 1:44:25.280 to be doing anything in those that isn't getting drunk exactly. 1:44:26.720 --> 1:44:30.639 Drunk and dancing and blues all they're good for. UM. Yeah, 1:44:30.840 --> 1:44:32.760 so you have you have a First to Fight and 1:44:32.800 --> 1:44:36.719 then it turns into Call of Duty America's Army, which 1:44:37.040 --> 1:44:40.879 thankfully just got pulled down all its platform from its platform. 1:44:40.960 --> 1:44:44.080 That's a huge win. But the Army started design getting 1:44:44.120 --> 1:44:49.120 into the development of video games for training, UH and 1:44:49.280 --> 1:44:52.360 then got into it for as recruiting, and America's Army 1:44:52.439 --> 1:44:54.960 is a perfect highlight of that where they just flat 1:44:55.000 --> 1:44:58.719 out had recruitment posters and training things UH in there 1:44:58.800 --> 1:45:01.720 with links to how to get to recruiters or get 1:45:01.720 --> 1:45:06.160 more information about joining the military joining the army. UM 1:45:06.320 --> 1:45:09.519 you have armor to UH. You could you could argue 1:45:09.760 --> 1:45:15.160 and draw the line from military training simulators to pub 1:45:15.200 --> 1:45:18.719 G Underground, which is one of the uh most biggest 1:45:19.320 --> 1:45:22.639 Battle Royale games, which is where you get Fortnite out 1:45:22.640 --> 1:45:25.240 of so you can draw these lines straight from the 1:45:25.280 --> 1:45:30.120 military's involvement in designing training and recruitment materials to what 1:45:30.200 --> 1:45:34.519 our kids are playing the most these days. And really 1:45:34.560 --> 1:45:36.880 one of the most kind of sick factors of this 1:45:37.840 --> 1:45:41.519 is like how much games have been designed and pushed 1:45:41.520 --> 1:45:46.599 towards basically training people for um like uh, I guess 1:45:46.760 --> 1:45:49.920 we're trying to think of the term, but like combat 1:45:49.960 --> 1:45:52.360 at a distance in terms of like ding like drone combat. 1:45:52.800 --> 1:45:55.640 There's just like they started just use the Xbox controllers 1:45:56.200 --> 1:45:59.800 for some like drone missions. Like like it's like there 1:45:59.840 --> 1:46:03.160 are specifically looking at the pipeline of specifically young males 1:46:03.160 --> 1:46:05.879 who get into this type of gaming and trying everything 1:46:05.920 --> 1:46:09.280 they can to push them into a career where they 1:46:09.320 --> 1:46:13.760 just kill people in overseas countries using the same technology, 1:46:13.880 --> 1:46:17.599 using you know, using video game controllers, using like you know, 1:46:18.240 --> 1:46:21.640 operating systems very similar to what we're being used in 1:46:21.720 --> 1:46:23.840 video games. And I mean, like in video games are 1:46:23.840 --> 1:46:26.400 a very effective propaganda tool. If you're thinking, like, okay, 1:46:26.560 --> 1:46:28.960 I mean I just enjoy playing more games. It's not like, 1:46:29.000 --> 1:46:31.160 what's what's the big deal? Like sure, like I also 1:46:31.280 --> 1:46:34.360 enjoy playing war games. Sometimes they can be a fun 1:46:34.439 --> 1:46:37.040 um you know, I like this like tactics based games, 1:46:37.080 --> 1:46:39.439 but these have been shown to be very effective at recruitment, 1:46:39.520 --> 1:46:41.519 to the point that video game footage and video games 1:46:41.520 --> 1:46:45.839 were like one of isis favorite recruitment and propaganda tactics 1:46:45.880 --> 1:46:48.760 as well, like this is it's a it's a thing, 1:46:48.960 --> 1:46:51.960 like it's not it's not just like oh, it's fine, 1:46:52.160 --> 1:46:54.680 Like no, these these things are actually kind of a 1:46:54.680 --> 1:46:58.120 profit of Yeah. Um, they are very effective in that 1:46:58.160 --> 1:47:01.160 manner as a recruitential and there is a real synergy 1:47:01.240 --> 1:47:05.880 between gaming developers and the d o D because of 1:47:05.960 --> 1:47:09.240 how effective uh, you know that recruiting can be, or 1:47:09.479 --> 1:47:13.200 the recruiting tool can be. Um, similar to movies. Uh, 1:47:13.320 --> 1:47:16.080 you know, the military entertainment complexes is a term thrown 1:47:16.120 --> 1:47:18.840 around a lot for good reason. You know, you have 1:47:19.040 --> 1:47:22.120 there is a black box of politics. Whenever you're watching 1:47:22.280 --> 1:47:25.080 a movie that picks uh yeah, some sort of power 1:47:25.120 --> 1:47:29.280 structure against whatever the villain is doing. There's there, there's 1:47:29.280 --> 1:47:32.360 always something there, and video games are not too different 1:47:32.439 --> 1:47:34.320 from that. You just have a little bit more say 1:47:34.320 --> 1:47:36.200 and where the story goes, but maybe not even it 1:47:36.240 --> 1:47:39.519 depends on the development. But um, there's article in in 1:47:39.640 --> 1:47:43.200 the Atlantic that was it was actually like about a book, 1:47:43.360 --> 1:47:48.559 um from beincause Dexter Thomas Warplay, and it's all about 1:47:48.880 --> 1:47:52.640 video gaming and the relationship with the military. And they 1:47:52.720 --> 1:47:56.000 said the Pentagon avoids pitiful, expensive efforts to create their 1:47:56.000 --> 1:47:59.439 own training simulators, and developers get fat government checks so 1:47:59.520 --> 1:48:03.759 they can help fund these new games, new virtual reality 1:48:03.880 --> 1:48:07.360 things under the guys of it being a useful training 1:48:07.360 --> 1:48:11.880 tool for training in like virtual virtual reality environments, which 1:48:12.439 --> 1:48:16.639 it scares me already. Um. And then game developers are like, great, 1:48:16.680 --> 1:48:18.679 I can get a government grant, so even if this flops, 1:48:19.120 --> 1:48:20.720 we still got the money out of it. That's not 1:48:20.720 --> 1:48:25.000 an uncommon phenomena. Yeah, I mean in terms of like filmmaking, Yeah, 1:48:25.040 --> 1:48:28.360 like there's been there's rules for like Pentagon contracts with 1:48:28.640 --> 1:48:30.599 film studios to be like, if you want to use 1:48:30.680 --> 1:48:33.559 you know, U. S. Military equipment or personality, to follow 1:48:33.560 --> 1:48:37.320 these specific rules to portray the military in this light, um, 1:48:37.439 --> 1:48:39.479 which often do get followed just because people want to 1:48:39.560 --> 1:48:41.840 use the cool equipment and stuff. You know. I'm still 1:48:41.880 --> 1:48:44.960 agree that my that my beloved Transformers got cuted by 1:48:44.960 --> 1:48:49.200 the U. S. Military and all of their films as 1:48:49.240 --> 1:48:53.720 a result of films are pretty pretty bad. Um. Yeah, 1:48:54.040 --> 1:48:57.160 I'll have you know. They are film art. No, I'm sorry, 1:48:57.160 --> 1:49:00.080 I can't even keep your straight. I hope as a 1:49:00.080 --> 1:49:04.120 as someone with many many star scream action figures, I 1:49:04.120 --> 1:49:07.160 I dream of one day of having good Transformers movies. 1:49:08.960 --> 1:49:11.479 I mean, you got the classic, the you know, the 1:49:11.520 --> 1:49:16.120 eighties classic, Um, You've got You've got the Touch, um 1:49:16.200 --> 1:49:18.760 and the bubblebe film is okay, but it's even still 1:49:18.800 --> 1:49:20.400 that one got cooked. That one got cooked by the 1:49:20.439 --> 1:49:25.120 military pretty pretty severely. Yes, it's it's funny that you 1:49:25.160 --> 1:49:30.679 mentioned isis using video gaming. Uh, there's just a recent 1:49:30.720 --> 1:49:34.160 report came out. It's linked to the u N. I 1:49:34.160 --> 1:49:37.000 believe it's linked to the u N. Council on Counter 1:49:37.080 --> 1:49:41.720 Terrorism or Office counter Terrorism. Uh, talking about violent extremism 1:49:41.800 --> 1:49:44.960 and gaming, the link between video games and violent extremism. 1:49:44.960 --> 1:49:46.680 And what's really interesting is it's not so much at 1:49:46.680 --> 1:49:49.559 the video games themselves are the issue. It's the gaming 1:49:49.560 --> 1:49:53.599 adjacent space. It's it's the para social relationship development, it's 1:49:53.680 --> 1:49:58.439 the meme, and it's the what what we've what we've 1:49:58.479 --> 1:50:01.640 known in in the gaming world for a while as 1:50:01.680 --> 1:50:04.599 associated with like the behaviors and culture around gamer Gate 1:50:04.680 --> 1:50:08.320 and things things like that where we see this uh, 1:50:08.520 --> 1:50:14.639 this toxic culture that um is easy to cultivate inside 1:50:14.680 --> 1:50:17.880 these spaces and and be co opted for more to 1:50:17.960 --> 1:50:23.200 various things. UM. And that doesn't that's that doesn't mean 1:50:23.200 --> 1:50:26.520 that the military isn't banking or utilizing those same principles 1:50:26.560 --> 1:50:31.000 to to get its recruiting messages across. The military is 1:50:31.080 --> 1:50:35.439 another violent extreme position, right. You're whether it's you're the 1:50:35.520 --> 1:50:40.840 violent arm of capitalism and the state or or violent 1:50:41.280 --> 1:50:45.800 like domestic terrorists or something like that, you're still um 1:50:45.920 --> 1:50:50.519 opting into or your position is still getting mobilized towards 1:50:50.520 --> 1:50:54.880 potentially doing violence. And these gaming adjacent spaces are make 1:50:54.960 --> 1:50:58.280 it really easy for recruiters of all sorts to be 1:50:58.439 --> 1:51:02.040 in there and push people to more of that side 1:51:02.040 --> 1:51:04.400 of things. Yeah. One of the things I remember when 1:51:04.439 --> 1:51:06.600 I was like a teenager on Twitch was like, so 1:51:06.640 --> 1:51:08.519 I watched just like a lot of harsh Stone streams, right, 1:51:08.520 --> 1:51:10.439 and this is like these were, you know, like completely 1:51:10.520 --> 1:51:13.680 mainline hard stone streams. And there was there was this 1:51:13.800 --> 1:51:18.080 artist who everyone called Kebab the German and uh, yeah, 1:51:18.160 --> 1:51:20.840 so it turns out that Kebab the German was a miss. 1:51:20.840 --> 1:51:24.599 It was like a shortening like abbreviation of his actual name, 1:51:24.600 --> 1:51:28.400 which was removed Kebab, And this guy's stuff was just 1:51:28.439 --> 1:51:32.920 being played on like every major like like Twitch, like 1:51:32.920 --> 1:51:35.160 all the major harshonal streaments who just playing groove Kebab 1:51:35.439 --> 1:51:37.720 songs and it was like and this this was just 1:51:37.760 --> 1:51:40.000 like what like this is just what Twitch was in 1:51:40.120 --> 1:51:45.719 like fourteen fifteen, and yeah, like there there's so much 1:51:45.960 --> 1:51:48.240 like the the the extent to which just this sort 1:51:48.280 --> 1:51:52.360 of like i mean just overtly fascist like milieu would 1:51:52.400 --> 1:51:55.040 just seep into just like you know, here was a 1:51:55.040 --> 1:51:57.519 bunch of people playing a card game and like it 1:51:57.560 --> 1:51:59.600 wasn't and it wasn't even like like I mean some 1:51:59.600 --> 1:52:02.000 of these which were like really reactionally like I've seen 1:52:02.240 --> 1:52:06.360 I've seen streamers who like will like watch videos of 1:52:06.400 --> 1:52:10.120 like cops doing right like raids on people's houses on stream, 1:52:10.240 --> 1:52:12.960 like you know, like you have those people who are 1:52:12.960 --> 1:52:14.640 like really florright, but some of these people were just 1:52:14.680 --> 1:52:15.960 like I don't know, they're just a lot of them 1:52:16.000 --> 1:52:19.040 are just regular people, like the regular people themselves extremists 1:52:19.439 --> 1:52:24.760 yeah yeah, yeah, just value Yeah. Well even then like 1:52:24.800 --> 1:52:26.280 some of them just like I think with like like 1:52:26.320 --> 1:52:28.800 with with with with like with the Germans like they 1:52:28.840 --> 1:52:31.000 just didn't know, like they just they just like didn't 1:52:31.360 --> 1:52:33.160 know what was going on, and so they were just 1:52:33.240 --> 1:52:35.240 you know, spreading all of this stuff and it was 1:52:35.320 --> 1:52:41.040 like it was horrifying. Yeah. Absolutely, And actually I'm glad 1:52:41.080 --> 1:52:43.720 you mentioned that because about a year ago, the Army 1:52:43.880 --> 1:52:46.559 Sports Channel got in trouble because one of the streamers 1:52:46.560 --> 1:52:50.160 didn't catch on to to there were two user names 1:52:50.200 --> 1:52:53.639 that were explicitly white supremacist. One of them was um 1:52:54.000 --> 1:52:58.559 six million was not enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah, real, real gross. 1:52:58.600 --> 1:53:02.040 And I guess like just the whole idea of multitasking 1:53:02.080 --> 1:53:04.479 between playing a game, trying to interact with chat, and 1:53:04.520 --> 1:53:06.920 trying to make sure you're you're on screen and all 1:53:06.960 --> 1:53:09.759 of those things. They didn't realize it, or they willfully 1:53:09.840 --> 1:53:11.599 didn't realize it. I don't know which one, and I'm 1:53:11.640 --> 1:53:13.559 not going to make a judgment either way, but they did. 1:53:13.640 --> 1:53:15.519 They had to shut down that stream, and I don't 1:53:15.520 --> 1:53:17.240 think they streamed for a couple of weeks after that. 1:53:17.280 --> 1:53:21.880 They had to like reassess some some things because they're like, hey, actively, 1:53:22.200 --> 1:53:25.080 you know, white supremacists people are on your stream, you 1:53:25.080 --> 1:53:27.479 should probably you should probably do something about that. And 1:53:27.560 --> 1:53:30.000 I feel like if you're the U. S Military streaming 1:53:30.000 --> 1:53:33.040 on Twitch, that someone's job should just be to prevent 1:53:33.080 --> 1:53:37.080 that from happening. Like yeah, but the resources. Yeah, but 1:53:37.200 --> 1:53:39.639 like they kind of have this problem though, because Twitch 1:53:39.680 --> 1:53:43.240 has a there's a there's a huge just like like core, 1:53:43.360 --> 1:53:46.840 like a large enough base of Twitch users are just 1:53:46.960 --> 1:53:51.120 like fascist or like hard right wingers that do things 1:53:51.240 --> 1:53:53.160 like like there have been a persistent problem on Twitch 1:53:53.200 --> 1:53:57.160 for for years now of like these hate raids. It's 1:53:57.200 --> 1:54:00.439 like people doing mass raids on like anyone who's white 1:54:00.520 --> 1:54:03.320 and anyone who's like not just white dude, and just 1:54:03.320 --> 1:54:06.040 like hate rating their channels and like spamming the chat 1:54:06.120 --> 1:54:09.880 with like slurs and stuff like that. And you know 1:54:10.120 --> 1:54:14.280 when when that's you know, and that that's too large, 1:54:14.479 --> 1:54:18.400 Like yeah, like those those are the people, like you 1:54:18.439 --> 1:54:20.720 know that that's a large enough part of Twitch that 1:54:20.960 --> 1:54:23.360 like even even even if you're like taking the most 1:54:23.439 --> 1:54:26.200 charitable thing, which that the US, like the Army is 1:54:26.240 --> 1:54:29.439 not overtly recruiting white supremacists, which like okay, but like 1:54:29.479 --> 1:54:31.599 even even if you give them the benefit of the doubt, right, 1:54:31.600 --> 1:54:33.960 like that that's a large enough part of just what 1:54:34.000 --> 1:54:37.080 Twitch is. They haven't a center in front of blind 1:54:37.080 --> 1:54:41.879 eye and and radicalization, specifically right wing and white nationalist 1:54:41.920 --> 1:54:45.000 radicalization in the military is well studied and well established 1:54:45.080 --> 1:54:49.200 as an existing phenomena. I knew someone personally who uh 1:54:49.560 --> 1:54:52.800 got caught trying to smuggle weapons for a new or 1:54:52.880 --> 1:54:56.880 Nazi group. And that's all I'll say on that. Boy. Yeah, yeah, no, 1:54:57.000 --> 1:54:58.800 it is a thing, and it hits really close. It 1:54:58.880 --> 1:55:00.760 is definitely a phenomena to have was in the military. 1:55:00.880 --> 1:55:05.320 And um, these paramilitary Nazi groups actively recruit from people 1:55:05.320 --> 1:55:07.440 coming out in the military because they have the trainings 1:55:07.480 --> 1:55:11.600 that they want. And I mean, I trying to figure 1:55:11.600 --> 1:55:13.480 out a way to tie this back to recruiting online. 1:55:13.480 --> 1:55:15.200 But it's like, with all of this in mind, it 1:55:15.320 --> 1:55:18.960 is very insidious that the target is explicitly young kids. 1:55:19.280 --> 1:55:21.280 And I'm not saying that just to be like, oh, 1:55:21.360 --> 1:55:22.760 you know, because we've got a lot of We've gotten 1:55:22.760 --> 1:55:25.560 pushed back with saying, well, the military doesn't recruit kids. 1:55:25.560 --> 1:55:28.400 They you can only sign up in their seventeen about 1:55:28.480 --> 1:55:34.000 that as a kid, that all that is a kid. 1:55:34.560 --> 1:55:38.560 Second of all, it's like the thing is it's it's 1:55:38.600 --> 1:55:41.640 it's just like grooming children. That's that's what it is. 1:55:42.280 --> 1:55:45.120 It is. It's the same process of grooming. That's that's 1:55:45.160 --> 1:55:47.520 what's going on. One of one of my best friends 1:55:47.520 --> 1:55:49.720 growing up, like because it was my best friend for 1:55:49.800 --> 1:55:52.040 like a decade, Like I met him in first grade. 1:55:52.040 --> 1:55:53.640 He was my friend for the entirety of school and 1:55:53.680 --> 1:55:56.720 then he got like because his parents sent him away 1:55:56.800 --> 1:55:59.320 to like, uh one of one of those like uh 1:55:59.680 --> 1:56:04.400 like summer like like military school camp, and he was 1:56:04.480 --> 1:56:07.040 just never the same afterwards, and he's like a fascist now, 1:56:07.680 --> 1:56:12.880 and yeah, that sucks. Yeah, that does suck. That there's 1:56:12.920 --> 1:56:16.040 not a better word for that. That that sucks because yeah, 1:56:16.120 --> 1:56:18.200 they can't sign up until they're seventeen, but that's not 1:56:18.280 --> 1:56:21.880 the point. Isn't convince seventeen year olds. The point the 1:56:21.880 --> 1:56:24.320 points to ingrain this idea in them when they're like 1:56:24.360 --> 1:56:27.240 sucking twelve years old on the internet. And that is 1:56:27.280 --> 1:56:29.560 just what grooming is, right, starting it when you're when 1:56:29.560 --> 1:56:31.560 they're young, so when they're old enough, they will be 1:56:31.560 --> 1:56:33.840 able to sign up for the thing. Like that's that's 1:56:34.040 --> 1:56:36.360 what the process is, and that's what like, you know, 1:56:36.520 --> 1:56:39.000 military propaganda reqruipment has been doing for a long time, 1:56:39.040 --> 1:56:40.640 but the specifically the way it's being done on the 1:56:40.640 --> 1:56:44.680 internet around gaming is extrasidious. It was literally it is 1:56:44.680 --> 1:56:48.400 explicitly said by one of UM A recruiting officer, Dr. E. 1:56:48.600 --> 1:56:51.400 Case Wardinsky, and I apologize if I'm pronouncing that wrong. 1:56:51.440 --> 1:56:53.960 But then he literally said, we have to confront this 1:56:54.040 --> 1:56:56.160 question of will you wait until they're seventeen or will 1:56:56.200 --> 1:56:58.800 we start talking to them at age twelve thirteen, fourteen 1:56:58.880 --> 1:57:01.760 fifteen when a form the set of things they were 1:57:01.760 --> 1:57:04.120 thinking about doing with their life. Because we're literally saying 1:57:04.200 --> 1:57:07.440 we want to groom children. It's like, yeah, so I 1:57:07.440 --> 1:57:08.840 think now would be the time to kind of get 1:57:08.880 --> 1:57:12.480 into the countering side of things. It's like, yes, this 1:57:12.560 --> 1:57:14.080 is a this is a big problem, as we've laid 1:57:14.120 --> 1:57:17.200 out the past twenty minutes of what can we do 1:57:17.400 --> 1:57:21.280 about it? Yeah, so what can we do about it? 1:57:21.520 --> 1:57:26.160 There's um a good deal that we can do about it? Right, 1:57:26.880 --> 1:57:31.400 um we we Veterans for Peace, the Truth and Recruitment 1:57:31.840 --> 1:57:36.200 UH working Group came up with an idea for the 1:57:36.200 --> 1:57:40.960 Gamage for Peace initiative concerned veterans and gamers and UH 1:57:41.040 --> 1:57:43.600 and allies. Because Veterans for Peace isn't just comprised of 1:57:43.720 --> 1:57:48.440 veterans themselves, it's also allies and accomplices UM came together 1:57:48.480 --> 1:57:51.160 and started forming the an online community of our own 1:57:51.720 --> 1:57:56.320 UM where we have kind of adopted some four channels. 1:57:56.320 --> 1:57:59.360 Have changed this concept of four channels to change. One 1:57:59.560 --> 1:58:04.360 do education, talking about UH, sharing our experiences as veterans, 1:58:04.720 --> 1:58:10.400 talking about and unpacking recruitment tactics and techniques. UH. Start 1:58:10.440 --> 1:58:14.240 talking being extremely vocal and raise awareness around the recruitment 1:58:14.280 --> 1:58:17.960 techniques that we've we've already been talking about, right. Uh. Second, 1:58:18.320 --> 1:58:21.560 we're doing some mentorship and leadership stuff. Starting to develop 1:58:21.880 --> 1:58:26.320 programs in local communities that offer alternatives to the economic draft. Right, 1:58:26.560 --> 1:58:29.640 like just throwing it back to where we started talking 1:58:29.680 --> 1:58:31.920 about coming out of Vietnam. It has already said that 1:58:31.960 --> 1:58:34.720 sergeant hard Times is the best recruiter and it posts 1:58:34.800 --> 1:58:37.480 posts the drafts we went when we went to an 1:58:37.480 --> 1:58:40.400 all volunteer force. You have to have a reason to join, 1:58:40.640 --> 1:58:43.560 and there's a thing called the economic draft, and it's 1:58:43.600 --> 1:58:46.680 the impoverished conditions that many kids and people face that 1:58:46.800 --> 1:58:49.320 forced them to go into the military. Right. You don't 1:58:49.320 --> 1:58:51.840 have healthcare coming out of high school, you're in an 1:58:51.840 --> 1:58:54.640 abusive home, you're not talking to a guidance counselor no 1:58:54.760 --> 1:58:56.360 college is coming to You don't know how to pay 1:58:56.400 --> 1:58:58.520 for college, You don't know where what you're going to 1:58:58.600 --> 1:59:00.760 do because you're eight in and on your own. And 1:59:00.760 --> 1:59:03.080 that's what we keep telling kids. So you have the 1:59:03.080 --> 1:59:07.200 economic draft, which encourage gives an opportunity for recruiters to go, hey, 1:59:07.240 --> 1:59:11.240 this this program will solve everything. And what what people 1:59:11.280 --> 1:59:13.320 don't realize is what's being asked is are you willing 1:59:13.320 --> 1:59:15.520 to kill for a camaro? Are you willing to kill 1:59:15.600 --> 1:59:17.000 just to have a roof of your head? Are you 1:59:17.040 --> 1:59:20.080 willing to kill for medicare? Right? So we're starting to 1:59:20.600 --> 1:59:24.880 focus on developing mentorship and leadership programs UM include helping 1:59:24.960 --> 1:59:28.200 kids and young adults get into college or find mutual 1:59:28.240 --> 1:59:31.120 aid programs and within their communities start doing stuff locally 1:59:31.160 --> 1:59:34.640 because this is the problem is pervasive. Right. Not everybody 1:59:34.760 --> 1:59:36.800 needs to escape abuse of home and it is fine 1:59:36.840 --> 1:59:39.560 staying in their community, but doesn't know how to survive 1:59:39.560 --> 1:59:41.600 within the community because they don't have the resources there. 1:59:41.920 --> 1:59:43.920 And we also look at the what's going on in 1:59:43.920 --> 1:59:46.960 the world today and and recognize that things must be 1:59:46.960 --> 1:59:49.880 done at a local level. UM and you can be 1:59:50.360 --> 1:59:52.840 part of leading that change. Right. Ingesting some of our 1:59:53.040 --> 1:59:57.520 world concerns. We ourselves do direct actions. We go to 1:59:58.000 --> 2:00:01.440 gaming conventions, speak out, try to actually do counter recruitment 2:00:01.520 --> 2:00:05.240 right where the recruiters are. We just it's really pervasive. 2:00:05.240 --> 2:00:06.720 If you, if you if you go to any kind 2:00:06.720 --> 2:00:08.800 of con or any kind of can, any kind of 2:00:08.840 --> 2:00:11.760 like game fest or whatever, um, you know, comic cons, 2:00:11.960 --> 2:00:16.800 there will always be multiple military recruitment boots there, like 2:00:16.800 --> 2:00:20.800 like Navy, Marines, Army National Guard, like all of them. 2:00:21.000 --> 2:00:24.560 That they will all all be there. And it's not 2:00:24.560 --> 2:00:28.880 not my favorite thing to see. No, no, it's frustrating. Yeah, 2:00:29.440 --> 2:00:33.200 board games aren't even safe, right. The Army Esports team 2:00:33.280 --> 2:00:35.640 has a forty K team, So if you play Warhammer 2:00:35.680 --> 2:00:40.160 forty K, they have nationally or internationally ranked forty K 2:00:40.280 --> 2:00:44.040 team playing in the major circuits. You know, it's most 2:00:44.080 --> 2:00:47.920 insulting about that, sorry, Chris, most insulting about that. And 2:00:47.960 --> 2:00:50.000 I know this because one of the streams that we do, 2:00:50.080 --> 2:00:52.240 I host it is called ad Slam because we started 2:00:52.240 --> 2:00:55.600 out as like roasting military recruitment ads, but it kind 2:00:55.600 --> 2:00:58.760 of morphed into just like general veteran and military depictions 2:00:58.760 --> 2:01:01.880 and media and to them was on the or at 2:01:01.920 --> 2:01:06.560 least referenced the Army e Sports Warhamerpoty K Team. And 2:01:06.800 --> 2:01:09.520 you know how people will like take their figurines really seriously, 2:01:09.560 --> 2:01:11.840 they paint them. They look really cool. The Army like 2:01:11.840 --> 2:01:13.960 spray painted them gold and it's called the Day. And 2:01:14.000 --> 2:01:16.320 I'm like, really, you have all of these resources, you 2:01:16.360 --> 2:01:19.480 are using the recruiting budget which is ridiculous and astronomical, 2:01:19.560 --> 2:01:22.120 and you spray painted them gold. Are you kidding me? 2:01:22.160 --> 2:01:24.320 Come on? And it's just an insulting that it was 2:01:24.360 --> 2:01:27.040 so low effort, but they still get the praise. Um. 2:01:27.560 --> 2:01:30.200 A lot of people report like having positive viewpoints of 2:01:30.240 --> 2:01:34.640 the military after interacting with members of you know, the 2:01:34.680 --> 2:01:37.839 Eastward Team or the Booth or whatever. So I'm I'm 2:01:37.880 --> 2:01:40.640 genuinely annoyed that it's also low effort on that matter 2:01:40.640 --> 2:01:44.440 and they're still getting a positive response. Bothers me, that's 2:01:44.480 --> 2:01:48.360 a perfect highlight because being there on like the hate 2:01:48.440 --> 2:01:51.000 using military terms nowadays, but being their boots on ground, 2:01:51.520 --> 2:01:56.640 you know, uh at it at these conventions, uh doing 2:01:57.080 --> 2:02:01.360 providing truth and recruitment right, talking about alternative Uh really 2:02:01.400 --> 2:02:05.080 just being there in front of recruiters and and talking 2:02:05.120 --> 2:02:09.440 to the people that they're targeting and family members, letting 2:02:09.480 --> 2:02:12.680 them know like, hey, we as veterans, right, don't let 2:02:12.720 --> 2:02:16.960 this be what shapes your child's future or your future. Right, 2:02:17.040 --> 2:02:21.760 there's other opportunities for you. Um and and you know, 2:02:22.000 --> 2:02:25.720 whether that's if you're into gaming, start designing games, right, Like, 2:02:25.760 --> 2:02:28.600 there's there's so many opportunities within the gaming community that 2:02:28.600 --> 2:02:31.280 doesn't want to put you into the military pipeline also, right, 2:02:31.400 --> 2:02:34.520 So it's not the game's fault. It's not like it's 2:02:34.680 --> 2:02:39.200 it's that the state's using right now, right, um and 2:02:39.200 --> 2:02:42.320 then we're trying to form some our owny sports teams also, right, 2:02:42.400 --> 2:02:45.040 so we can compete directly against them, kick their as 2:02:45.080 --> 2:02:47.960 in some of the tournaments that they host. Um. You know, 2:02:48.200 --> 2:02:50.200 my my dream is to see some gamers for Peace 2:02:50.280 --> 2:02:54.560 jerseys getting awarded like some trophy next to the Army 2:02:54.680 --> 2:02:57.760 sports team and just dunking on them so across all 2:02:57.800 --> 2:03:00.360 the if we lose, if we're up there, we still 2:03:00.360 --> 2:03:02.000 get to dunk on them. See, we had so much 2:03:02.000 --> 2:03:03.760 more fun. We don't have to go clean up barracks 2:03:03.840 --> 2:03:07.040 room after this. Like the ultimate goal being us being 2:03:07.080 --> 2:03:10.560 able to provide tangible alternatives. So a kid coming out 2:03:10.560 --> 2:03:12.840 of high school thinking like, well, I either go into 2:03:12.920 --> 2:03:14.400 a lot of debt to go to college or I 2:03:14.480 --> 2:03:17.520 join the military. If we can get um not a 2:03:17.520 --> 2:03:19.520 hold of them, that seems predatory, but if we can 2:03:19.520 --> 2:03:23.840 talk to them, or our organization can provide that alternative 2:03:23.880 --> 2:03:25.640 and say, oh, well, you don't really have to do that. 2:03:25.680 --> 2:03:27.760 We have a scholarship program that we can offer you, 2:03:27.880 --> 2:03:30.840 or we can provide a lite, at the very least 2:03:30.960 --> 2:03:33.120 education about what they're really getting into so they can 2:03:33.160 --> 2:03:36.080 make a better informed decision. Because the main problem that 2:03:36.120 --> 2:03:37.760 I have with the way that recruiting works is that 2:03:37.800 --> 2:03:40.680 you are not getting a view of what life would 2:03:40.680 --> 2:03:42.480 actually be like. You are not getting a view of 2:03:42.520 --> 2:03:44.840 what you're fighting for. The There's a whole lot of 2:03:44.880 --> 2:03:46.880 like these vague concepts that they tell you that you're 2:03:46.880 --> 2:03:50.120 fighting for and then you're supposed to feel great about 2:03:50.200 --> 2:03:54.120 doing but none of those are real in practice, liberty 2:03:54.320 --> 2:03:56.520 or protecting the homeland, none of that is what you're doing. 2:03:56.640 --> 2:04:01.360 You're helping Northrop Grumman create a profit. Right Like, there's 2:04:01.480 --> 2:04:03.880 uh and so at least, at the very least someone 2:04:03.880 --> 2:04:06.600 who thinks that they have no other options, and in 2:04:06.680 --> 2:04:09.320 this country that might not be too far off right. 2:04:09.680 --> 2:04:12.040 We don't have a universal health care system. That was 2:04:12.080 --> 2:04:13.880 part of the reason why I joined the Marine Corps 2:04:13.960 --> 2:04:16.360 that I knew I would get healthcare and I knew 2:04:16.360 --> 2:04:18.000 I would get money to go to college and not 2:04:18.040 --> 2:04:20.640 be in this loan debt that I was in. So 2:04:20.800 --> 2:04:24.040 I'm definitely not alone in that. And UM, if maybe 2:04:24.080 --> 2:04:27.720 we can even just provide a more holistic view of 2:04:28.000 --> 2:04:31.320 what decision that you're making, that would be considered a 2:04:31.360 --> 2:04:34.880 win to us. So that was my soapbox. One of 2:04:34.920 --> 2:04:40.400 the important things is trying to push back on the 2:04:40.440 --> 2:04:44.400 motion offarious things that we're seeing right, whether that's games 2:04:44.400 --> 2:04:48.560 that are becoming way to train, some training simulator. Uh. 2:04:48.760 --> 2:04:50.960 There's another campaign that Gamage for Peace work on, and 2:04:51.040 --> 2:04:55.440 Veterans for Peace worked on the platform six Days with Care. 2:04:55.720 --> 2:05:00.680 The Council on American and Islamic Relations U pushing back 2:05:00.680 --> 2:05:03.240 on again called Six States in Flucia, which was delayed 2:05:03.280 --> 2:05:06.880 to quarter four two of this year, So we got 2:05:06.880 --> 2:05:09.240 it was pushed by a year, whether through our efforts 2:05:09.280 --> 2:05:12.280 or for whatever reason, but it was pushed by a year. Um. 2:05:12.360 --> 2:05:16.839 And this game is dubbed a murder simulator, uh, because 2:05:17.040 --> 2:05:21.120 it is. We look at other games like Escape from 2:05:21.120 --> 2:05:26.040 tarkov as as teaching fundamental skills through tried and true 2:05:26.080 --> 2:05:31.280 teaching methodologies for military skills. Um. You know, we were 2:05:31.360 --> 2:05:35.640 talking about counter recruitment and truth and recruitment to give 2:05:35.960 --> 2:05:39.920 people an opportunity to make informed, have an informed decision 2:05:40.000 --> 2:05:42.720 about their participation in the war machine. But also we're 2:05:42.720 --> 2:05:45.440 trying to push back directly on the war machine and 2:05:45.440 --> 2:05:49.120 and say hey, there's better uses of our money for 2:05:49.680 --> 2:05:52.600 for as as a government to take care of our people. 2:05:52.600 --> 2:05:55.760 There's a lot of fundamental things. There's the contributions to 2:05:55.760 --> 2:06:00.600 the climate crisis. Is the military's number one, uh impact 2:06:00.640 --> 2:06:04.520 or of the on the climate war is never green 2:06:04.560 --> 2:06:09.880 You can't green watch the military. Um, the you know, 2:06:10.160 --> 2:06:14.680 we have just so much going on around all the 2:06:14.680 --> 2:06:17.000 ways that people don't realize that militaries involved. We have 2:06:17.160 --> 2:06:21.880 the future of German warfare, kill, cloud technology, gaming technology, 2:06:21.920 --> 2:06:25.280 and the military and militarism is so tightly wound right 2:06:25.320 --> 2:06:27.760 now that just pushing back and trying to parse those 2:06:27.800 --> 2:06:30.880 two things apart is one of the things that is 2:06:30.880 --> 2:06:35.200 most effective for counter recruitment and also for mobilizing people 2:06:35.240 --> 2:06:38.040 to be like, hey, we actually deserve better, Like get 2:06:38.040 --> 2:06:42.600 out of my gaming space. And like, get me some food, sovereignty, 2:06:42.720 --> 2:06:46.840 get me, get me like, let's let me be part 2:06:46.840 --> 2:06:49.800 of my community. Get out of the gaming space and 2:06:49.880 --> 2:06:55.760 stop using what is fun and has actual educational value, 2:06:56.240 --> 2:07:00.760 mental health benefits, physical health benefits, commune to impact social 2:07:00.800 --> 2:07:04.520 impact like this, this gaming tool, this gaming technology we 2:07:04.560 --> 2:07:07.800 have can be used for so much good. Uh, but 2:07:07.920 --> 2:07:10.280 we need to disentangle the military's usage from it and 2:07:10.280 --> 2:07:14.960 and stop framing our our time, our time enjoy that 2:07:15.040 --> 2:07:18.160 we enjoy with our friends and family. Uh through this 2:07:18.280 --> 2:07:21.760 lens at the military forces to view with her. Because 2:07:21.800 --> 2:07:23.760 there are so many great games out there, like like 2:07:23.800 --> 2:07:26.040 we are in one of like right now we have 2:07:26.080 --> 2:07:28.800 the most amount of games ever released, most amount of 2:07:28.800 --> 2:07:32.480 good games like always being announced and released all the time. 2:07:32.960 --> 2:07:35.520 There's so many great stuff to play, and yeah, there's 2:07:36.160 --> 2:07:38.400 anything that can be done to push people away from 2:07:38.440 --> 2:07:41.800 stuff that kind of promotes this you know, colonial imperial 2:07:41.840 --> 2:07:45.640 it's kind of mindset um is great, right, Like That's 2:07:45.640 --> 2:07:48.480 why I kind of appreciate the cartoony aspects of Fortnite. 2:07:48.520 --> 2:07:52.080 Even though I hate playing Fortnite and we'll never really do, so, 2:07:52.600 --> 2:07:54.920 I still appreciate it as opposed to like the heavily 2:07:55.360 --> 2:07:58.640 militaristic kind of aesthetics that other you know, similar Battle 2:07:58.720 --> 2:08:02.760 Royals show, um. Because I mean because with with with 2:08:02.920 --> 2:08:05.640 as many games out there as there is, Yeah, I 2:08:05.680 --> 2:08:09.839 think any kind of attempts to push people away from 2:08:09.880 --> 2:08:13.360 the more problematic aspects of you know, specifically shooting games, 2:08:13.880 --> 2:08:17.680 UH is great. Yeah, And just noting that when you're 2:08:17.680 --> 2:08:21.720 playing these games, especially if they are relatively close to reality, UM, 2:08:21.960 --> 2:08:26.240 understand the impact that you can have by pointing out 2:08:26.720 --> 2:08:31.280 simply that your friend doesn't respawn in real life. Right. 2:08:31.680 --> 2:08:34.520 And also keep in mind if you are playing a 2:08:34.520 --> 2:08:37.000 game that that is close to a recent reality, that 2:08:37.080 --> 2:08:40.080 you could be playing through someone's actual trauma. So I'm 2:08:40.120 --> 2:08:42.080 not telling you not to play the games if they are. 2:08:42.440 --> 2:08:44.560 We've gone over a couple of like Squad uh and 2:08:44.560 --> 2:08:47.680 and others that are like very very realistic um in 2:08:47.920 --> 2:08:51.240 their application. Just keep in mind when you're playing it 2:08:51.320 --> 2:08:54.800 that maybe look at it through that lens, like would 2:08:54.840 --> 2:08:56.760 how would you feel if you were playing through a 2:08:56.800 --> 2:09:00.000 game but it was the exact moment of your trauma. 2:09:00.040 --> 2:09:02.000 And I'm not even saying from the military side, I 2:09:02.040 --> 2:09:05.280 mean from from the people who were being bombed side, 2:09:05.680 --> 2:09:09.400 you know, so just just want to have more people 2:09:09.560 --> 2:09:12.240 be more mindful with what they consume and how. And 2:09:12.280 --> 2:09:14.360 again I'm not telling you not to consume it, just 2:09:14.400 --> 2:09:16.240 telling you to to think a little bit about it 2:09:16.280 --> 2:09:20.320 and what that type of media can do while having 2:09:20.320 --> 2:09:25.640 that baggage onto it. And there is a place for 2:09:26.640 --> 2:09:30.360 that's in the military experience in gaming. Right Like when 2:09:30.360 --> 2:09:32.280 I was in when I was deployed to Iraq, I 2:09:32.320 --> 2:09:33.960 took an Xbox Stege six year over there with me 2:09:34.040 --> 2:09:37.040 in the bottom my sea bag and we had on 2:09:37.200 --> 2:09:40.640 camp filution, we had a local area network of Xboxes 2:09:40.800 --> 2:09:42.280 in all the cants when we sat there and played 2:09:42.280 --> 2:09:44.640 Halo and and Gears of War and when that dropped 2:09:44.640 --> 2:09:47.800 walls there, right, Like, that's how we stay in touch 2:09:47.840 --> 2:09:51.600 with each other. It's how we process like auditory things 2:09:51.760 --> 2:09:55.080 and and and our combat experiences. Right, That's that's valid 2:09:55.120 --> 2:09:58.960 sublimation and processing of our traumatic experience as a thing. 2:09:59.560 --> 2:10:02.200 And games have that And that's not a military exclusive 2:10:02.240 --> 2:10:06.080 thing or veteran exclusive thing. That's for all communities. Um. 2:10:06.120 --> 2:10:07.720 But what we have to do is add context and 2:10:07.800 --> 2:10:12.160 nuanced when we're playing these games and go oh, um, 2:10:12.200 --> 2:10:15.200 there's another side to this story. That's the local civilian 2:10:15.240 --> 2:10:19.800 that just had a bomb cave in the ceiling. Right. Uh, 2:10:19.840 --> 2:10:24.880 there's there's these these instances where we've removed that because 2:10:24.880 --> 2:10:26.960 we're so focused on the competitive nature instead of the 2:10:26.960 --> 2:10:29.440 storytelling in the full scope of what that game is 2:10:29.920 --> 2:10:34.000 allowing us to process. Um. And that's why I don't like, 2:10:34.040 --> 2:10:37.640 I'm not blaming recruiters or blaming like coming up to 2:10:38.560 --> 2:10:40.839 people in the military and going, you know, you're horrible. 2:10:40.960 --> 2:10:43.480 It's not the right thing. Hey, I was there, right, 2:10:43.560 --> 2:10:45.640 I did the six years in the Marine Corps, and 2:10:45.640 --> 2:10:50.400 and um, you know, instead of going, hey, you're a 2:10:50.440 --> 2:10:52.800 horrible person or things like that, like we're trying to 2:10:52.840 --> 2:10:56.120 offer them them the recruiters and other military members of 2:10:56.160 --> 2:10:58.360 the community that go, hey, you're allowed to speak out 2:10:58.360 --> 2:11:00.320 against the things that you know were bullsh it while 2:11:00.360 --> 2:11:02.200 you're in there. Because if I knew it was a 2:11:02.240 --> 2:11:04.320 bullshit while I was in there, and I couldn't speak out, 2:11:04.320 --> 2:11:06.000 I didn't know I had a community to speak out 2:11:06.000 --> 2:11:09.959 to or with. And we're trying to offer community to them. Um. 2:11:10.040 --> 2:11:13.080 And that's beyond beyond just video games, but that's drone 2:11:13.120 --> 2:11:16.600 operators and infantry eyes and and people that are just 2:11:16.600 --> 2:11:19.520 fed up with what they see in a system that 2:11:19.600 --> 2:11:23.440 is supporting a crumbling infrastructure. Right, Like, Um, you can 2:11:23.480 --> 2:11:27.839 only deploy so many times without developing either becoming completely 2:11:27.840 --> 2:11:30.520 dead on the inside or having developing some semblance of 2:11:30.560 --> 2:11:34.520 empathy that goes, Hey, deep down, I know something's wrong here, 2:11:34.560 --> 2:11:36.920 and I just don't know how to uh Like, I 2:11:36.920 --> 2:11:39.520 don't know what that feeling is. Well, that feeling is 2:11:39.760 --> 2:11:41.960 is just empathy for the human condition and not wanting 2:11:41.960 --> 2:11:45.480 to see people traumatized through war. Right, Um, that that 2:11:45.720 --> 2:11:49.040 idea of us going into like even post nine eleven, 2:11:49.160 --> 2:11:51.840 like immediate post nine eleven events early on they had 2:11:51.880 --> 2:11:54.040 they went there with the right, right idea, I want 2:11:54.040 --> 2:11:57.879 to defend my community. I want to be do do service, 2:11:58.480 --> 2:12:00.920 right like I don't have another option. Yeah, I'm an 2:12:00.920 --> 2:12:05.400 economic drafty, but all in all here to help people. Yeah, 2:12:05.400 --> 2:12:08.160 it was, it was. It was a genuine thought, Like, 2:12:08.320 --> 2:12:11.120 it was a genuine idea, right people, you can very 2:12:11.160 --> 2:12:14.920 much disagree with like the intentionality the propaganda that like 2:12:15.160 --> 2:12:18.040 governments were doing to promote the war and the unjust 2:12:18.040 --> 2:12:22.080 reasons for that, but for the but for the regular people, right, Yeah, 2:12:22.280 --> 2:12:25.760 it was, it was, it was genuine feelings that caused 2:12:25.760 --> 2:12:29.440 that to happen, and overlooking that, I think MSS what 2:12:29.640 --> 2:12:33.000 makes the recruitment to work. You know, if if if 2:12:33.120 --> 2:12:35.120 you just look at all the people who join the 2:12:35.120 --> 2:12:37.720 military as being like, oh, they're just like bad people 2:12:37.720 --> 2:12:39.960 who want to kill you know, brown people. You're like, 2:12:40.160 --> 2:12:43.160 but that's you can think that, but that doesn't actually 2:12:43.240 --> 2:12:46.800 do anything to understand how recruitment actually works. And then 2:12:46.800 --> 2:12:48.360 if you can't do that, then you don't know how 2:12:48.400 --> 2:12:51.760 to actually counter it. Right exactly, if you are a 2:12:51.840 --> 2:12:54.680 veteran and you feel like we do this whole thing 2:12:54.760 --> 2:12:58.160 was bullshit you and that can be uh an incredibly 2:12:58.200 --> 2:13:01.800 alienating experience. I've been there, because it feels like with 2:13:01.880 --> 2:13:05.120 the amount of veterans we saw the January six events, um, 2:13:05.160 --> 2:13:07.040 all the veterans that you see that get through to 2:13:07.360 --> 2:13:10.400 the right wing side of the culture of war, I 2:13:10.440 --> 2:13:12.720 just want to say that we see you. You're not alone, 2:13:12.760 --> 2:13:16.200 you are you are not crazy. I promise you. We 2:13:16.440 --> 2:13:18.400 we are trying to build a community of people like 2:13:18.480 --> 2:13:21.760 that who understand it and promote healing through that community, 2:13:21.800 --> 2:13:24.720 political education through that so that you can create resiliency 2:13:24.840 --> 2:13:28.280 within your community and as well as at least put 2:13:28.320 --> 2:13:32.440 a little bit of pressure on the military entertainment complex 2:13:32.480 --> 2:13:38.080 and the military recruiting apparatus. Yeah, fuck the military, Fuck 2:13:38.120 --> 2:13:42.520 war war, It's truth, all right, Tea two. If anything 2:13:42.680 --> 2:13:47.800 specific that you want to plug, yes, join our discord. UH. 2:13:47.880 --> 2:13:50.000 You can find if you search the discord, you can 2:13:50.400 --> 2:13:52.960 look up Gamers for Peace and you will see us 2:13:53.600 --> 2:13:56.120 on Twitch. We are Veterans for Peace all one word, 2:13:56.160 --> 2:13:59.720 and we stream several times the week gaming content content 2:13:59.800 --> 2:14:03.840 of out um different alternatives to military service content, breaking 2:14:03.880 --> 2:14:08.640 down propaganda and recruiting efforts, as well as other political 2:14:08.760 --> 2:14:12.240 education things. Sometimes it's just a random community game night 2:14:12.240 --> 2:14:14.200 as well. Um, actually, no, that's not random. Those are 2:14:14.200 --> 2:14:19.320 on Thursdays, so there. Um, Chris, should I should we 2:14:19.360 --> 2:14:26.120 add anything? I got something? Um? Uh? The if if 2:14:26.720 --> 2:14:28.440 one of the first things you can do besides going 2:14:28.480 --> 2:14:30.640 to discord and checking us out on Twitch. UH. We 2:14:30.760 --> 2:14:34.560 actually have an online digital direct action campaign going on 2:14:35.240 --> 2:14:38.280 UH that we're pushing to allow content creators on Twitch 2:14:38.480 --> 2:14:40.840 as a platform to be able to opt out of 2:14:40.880 --> 2:14:45.360 military ads UH on their channels. So that is our 2:14:46.120 --> 2:14:49.040 campaign that we currently have ongoing. There's a petition it 2:14:49.200 --> 2:14:54.520 is uh bit dot Lee Slash, Twitch Military ad Opt 2:14:54.560 --> 2:14:57.200 out is the u r L. They'll take you right 2:14:57.240 --> 2:15:01.600 to the Twitch petition that feedback your Twitch. We're looking 2:15:01.600 --> 2:15:05.320 to hit a thousand at least a SAP on that petition, 2:15:05.840 --> 2:15:08.480 UH to get some get a response from Twitch, and 2:15:08.520 --> 2:15:11.800 then go from there, allowing content creators to take ownership 2:15:11.800 --> 2:15:15.760 of their of the the ads and stuff that are 2:15:15.840 --> 2:15:18.440 on their channels, at least when it comes to military 2:15:18.480 --> 2:15:22.880 recruitment UH, and then going from there. UH. We also 2:15:23.800 --> 2:15:28.080 UH are doing actions and planning things constantly. So beyond lookout, 2:15:28.160 --> 2:15:30.880 joined the discord all that good stuff. Oh, if you 2:15:30.880 --> 2:15:33.040 need help navigating that, I'm a mod in the discord 2:15:33.520 --> 2:15:37.800 at plantipa she slash today and you'll find me. We'll 2:15:37.960 --> 2:15:40.880 try to put that link for the petition in the 2:15:40.920 --> 2:15:43.839 show notes so people can find out with a with 2:15:43.600 --> 2:15:49.800 a with with an easy click. Awesome. Perfect, All right, Well, 2:15:50.120 --> 2:15:52.400 thank you too for joining us. We are it could 2:15:52.400 --> 2:15:57.600 happen here at happened here pod in the places, in 2:15:57.640 --> 2:16:01.520 the places, the places you know, all the places, they're 2:16:01.520 --> 2:16:07.880 all there. H Well, thank you everyone for listening, and yeah, 2:16:08.040 --> 2:16:10.720 go play. I don't know Mario Kart eight or something, 2:16:10.920 --> 2:16:13.840 you know, something something fun. I don't know. I enjoyed. 2:16:13.880 --> 2:16:17.320 I enjoyed the Mario Kart games as a as as 2:16:17.360 --> 2:16:21.000 someone of my age, very very very integral to my 2:16:21.120 --> 2:16:26.200 driving education. So yeah, go play Mario Kart eight buck 2:16:26.240 --> 2:16:45.800 war War not another generation. Oh boy, it could happen 2:16:45.920 --> 2:16:50.960 here is the podcast that you're listening to. All right, 2:16:51.600 --> 2:16:54.200 St Andrew, that that's my job done today? Why why 2:16:54.200 --> 2:16:56.640 don't you take over? Good job. I'm proud of you, 2:16:57.040 --> 2:17:01.560 Thank you. Welcome everybody. Another wonderful episode of it could 2:17:01.560 --> 2:17:10.160 happen here today. Open to take a look at another book, well, 2:17:10.280 --> 2:17:14.160 two books, this time, this time works of fiction, and 2:17:15.000 --> 2:17:21.080 this time by an English, unfortunately writer named Alice Huxley. Right, 2:17:21.160 --> 2:17:24.560 we'll be looking at Ireland and Free of New World, 2:17:25.080 --> 2:17:32.000 the sort of twins of speculative science fiction. I would say. 2:17:33.800 --> 2:17:38.880 Aldice Huxley was, like I said, an English writer and philosopher, 2:17:39.320 --> 2:17:43.600 and he actually wrote a lot of books, um fifty 2:17:43.800 --> 2:17:46.760 in his lifetime. To be precise. He was also a 2:17:46.760 --> 2:17:52.200 French teacher who interestingly enough, taught George Owell. But I 2:17:52.240 --> 2:17:56.680 did not know from yeah, but from what what his 2:17:56.800 --> 2:18:02.119 past students have said. He wasn't a particularly good teacher, Okay, 2:18:02.160 --> 2:18:06.199 but he was a good speaker. Um. He was also 2:18:06.240 --> 2:18:11.800 a very very big fan of psychedelics and mysticism and philosophy, 2:18:12.000 --> 2:18:16.279 and particularly like advit I don't know if I'm pronounced 2:18:16.280 --> 2:18:20.560 that correctly, but advate vendata, which is like a Hindu 2:18:20.600 --> 2:18:24.120 spiritual practice. Yeah, I know. He's He's even referenced a 2:18:24.160 --> 2:18:27.720 lot and like occultist and chaos magic books written like 2:18:27.840 --> 2:18:31.880 post the sixties. He's yeah, yeah, yeah, he's He's like, um, 2:18:32.760 --> 2:18:39.440 that guy, it's his name again, Alan Watts. Yeah guy, yeah. 2:18:40.400 --> 2:18:45.160 Also very interestingly, Um, Huxley actually had LSD injected into 2:18:45.240 --> 2:18:52.440 his veins. It's a basic Yeah. He was like he 2:18:53.000 --> 2:18:56.760 was dying, as you know one does on their deathbed, 2:18:57.520 --> 2:19:00.800 and that is the traditional thing to do traditionally. Yes, 2:19:01.280 --> 2:19:03.480 while in the process of dying, because he had like 2:19:03.600 --> 2:19:07.160 advanced learning your cancer, he had to write to his 2:19:07.240 --> 2:19:14.839 wife Laura. He was just like LSD intermuscular. He's like, okay, 2:19:15.120 --> 2:19:21.560 Jackson him fucking muscle. And she doesn't inject him with 2:19:21.640 --> 2:19:24.760 one do she injects him with two doses and then 2:19:24.800 --> 2:19:29.680 he dies like several hours later. Incredibly based what away 2:19:29.720 --> 2:19:34.640 to go? Staggeringly based and honestly, if if he was 2:19:34.680 --> 2:19:37.000 like speaking on the deathbed. I would really love to know, 2:19:37.120 --> 2:19:39.240 like what that experience was like, like, are you just 2:19:39.360 --> 2:19:44.680 like dancing through hell? Like what's going on? I mean 2:19:45.520 --> 2:19:47.680 it could it could think I can see of being 2:19:48.160 --> 2:19:53.880 the most amazing thing and also extreme plainly terrified. Right 2:19:55.160 --> 2:19:59.560 as a general rule, when like Pete, they've done studies 2:19:59.600 --> 2:20:04.640 on like giving different kinds of psychedelics, usually silocybin mushrooms 2:20:04.640 --> 2:20:08.840 to um people who are in hospice and it it 2:20:09.000 --> 2:20:13.320 generally reduces their fear of death. Yeah, they they go 2:20:13.400 --> 2:20:16.240 in peace. Yeah, yeah, it just makes them like, ah, 2:20:16.280 --> 2:20:19.760 you know what, everything is the same as everything else, 2:20:19.920 --> 2:20:23.120 and we're the imagination of the universe. I'm going to 2:20:23.200 --> 2:20:30.080 go back into space, which is fine. Good for them, Yeah, yeah, 2:20:30.120 --> 2:20:33.160 good for them, good for them. If I want my 2:20:33.160 --> 2:20:34.520 death bed, I a pread wouldn't want to be thinking 2:20:34.520 --> 2:20:38.680 about death either. Yeah. I mean that assumes that, you know, 2:20:38.720 --> 2:20:40.520 we get a deathbed, you know, and that's the kind 2:20:40.560 --> 2:20:42.200 of wild thing about death. You don't know when it's 2:20:42.240 --> 2:20:46.000 going to happen. But so it too into the topic 2:20:46.000 --> 2:20:54.359 of discussion. Brief New Wild and Ireland right to summarize 2:20:54.480 --> 2:20:57.119 the plots of booth, I guess I'll start with Brief 2:20:57.160 --> 2:20:58.959 New will it is the more famous of the two. 2:20:59.040 --> 2:21:01.200 I don't think a lot of people have hood of 2:21:01.240 --> 2:21:04.240 Island compared to Brief New World because briefe like New 2:21:04.280 --> 2:21:08.480 World and high School. But I have not read Island exactly, 2:21:08.959 --> 2:21:10.800 and it's like it's released as a lot of out 2:21:10.840 --> 2:21:14.960 society that that that we read about the Dystupias, but 2:21:15.040 --> 2:21:20.560 not the Utupias. But anyway, Brief New World, you know, 2:21:20.560 --> 2:21:24.480 it's really up there with like in terms of um, 2:21:24.520 --> 2:21:30.320 you know, it's it's notoriety. Um. It is like one 2:21:30.360 --> 2:21:35.640 of the quintessential dystopias. It's set like several hundred years 2:21:35.680 --> 2:21:39.920 into the future, like four which you know, to place, 2:21:41.200 --> 2:21:45.119 which is several decades ago. Brief New World was set 2:21:45.240 --> 2:21:50.480 in two thousand and fifty four, two thousand five hty ce, 2:21:51.480 --> 2:21:57.040 so several Star Direct times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But however, 2:21:57.240 --> 2:22:01.680 in the book, it isn't called two thousand five. It's 2:22:01.720 --> 2:22:07.000 called six three to a F a F standing for 2:22:07.200 --> 2:22:11.440 after Ford. Because in this world, and I'm sure we'll 2:22:11.480 --> 2:22:15.640 get into this a bit, Henry Ford, the Assembly, lying guy, 2:22:15.959 --> 2:22:21.440 the monet guy, he is basically god. He is the 2:22:21.480 --> 2:22:23.680 god of their world, you know. So yeah, that wouldn't 2:22:23.680 --> 2:22:27.400 be ideal. They say things like by Ford's name and 2:22:27.440 --> 2:22:32.879 that kind of thing, you know, and his school sort 2:22:32.879 --> 2:22:38.040 of simply line structure. Um. It's basically it's chopolated to 2:22:38.200 --> 2:22:43.040 society as a whole. Right, there's this world state where 2:22:43.320 --> 2:22:48.800 emotions and individuality a condition out of children, and everyone 2:22:48.840 --> 2:22:53.279 belongs to everyone else, and you know there's children are 2:22:53.320 --> 2:22:59.240 created in like factories and generated to be part of 2:22:59.320 --> 2:23:04.560 specific classes, whether it be alpha, beta, gamma, telta, or epsilon. 2:23:05.280 --> 2:23:09.440 So it's like it's kind of like, what's what, what's 2:23:09.520 --> 2:23:12.840 what's happening today? You know, in terms of the Greek 2:23:12.879 --> 2:23:16.280 alphabet um, we are the alphas who are bred to 2:23:16.280 --> 2:23:18.320 be like the leaders and stuff, and you're the absilons 2:23:18.320 --> 2:23:23.120 who are bred to be like the menial libras, and 2:23:23.200 --> 2:23:26.160 you have the folks in between, and like they're literally conditioned, 2:23:26.240 --> 2:23:29.000 you know, so like in the factory, in the baby 2:23:29.080 --> 2:23:32.200 making factory, which is in this case literal and not 2:23:32.280 --> 2:23:35.840 a euphemism for the womb um. You know, they like 2:23:37.480 --> 2:23:41.360 poled back on oxygen or they apply sitting chemicals or 2:23:41.360 --> 2:23:44.480 sitting hormones in order to like condition people, so they 2:23:44.480 --> 2:23:49.800 don't do like genetic um like coding or whatever. They 2:23:49.879 --> 2:23:53.840 just they do a chemical concoctions in those sort of 2:23:53.879 --> 2:23:57.760 test tubes. And yeah, I mean the story of the 2:23:57.760 --> 2:24:01.480 world is really how it's affecting, like that's on the 2:24:01.480 --> 2:24:04.400 top level of people within it and sort of contrasted 2:24:04.440 --> 2:24:08.879 with sort of reservations that exist in their world where 2:24:08.920 --> 2:24:14.320 people are a bit less restricted. Um. And it ends 2:24:14.360 --> 2:24:20.439 pretty tragically, but the next book also ends it tragically. 2:24:20.720 --> 2:24:24.960 The extra for being Island, which is like the utopian 2:24:25.360 --> 2:24:27.480 twin for a Brief New World in a lot of 2:24:27.480 --> 2:24:30.320 ways in terms of memory, mirroring a lot of the 2:24:30.400 --> 2:24:36.080 same themes that Brief New World explores. Right, So in 2:24:36.200 --> 2:24:42.080 Ireland there's this specific island called Parlor, which is um fictional. 2:24:42.400 --> 2:24:45.560 I mean, there was an area in India called Parlor, 2:24:46.440 --> 2:24:49.080 but the island of Parlor in this world is like 2:24:49.200 --> 2:24:52.080 it doesn't exist, right, And it's basically seen as this 2:24:52.200 --> 2:24:56.600 oasis of happiness and freedom and where it's inhabitants of 2:24:56.959 --> 2:25:03.400 resisted capitalism and consumers um and technology. Right then this journalist, 2:25:03.840 --> 2:25:09.160 another British guy named Will farnaby Um pulls up on 2:25:09.200 --> 2:25:12.800 their island and he's basically trying to scoop out the 2:25:12.800 --> 2:25:18.560 island for exploitation because he's friends with this industrialist who's 2:25:18.560 --> 2:25:23.360 trying to like extract oil from the region. And while 2:25:23.400 --> 2:25:27.400 he's going through the Ireland and really going through the 2:25:27.480 --> 2:25:30.360 society going through the book, there are a lot of 2:25:30.400 --> 2:25:32.520 monologues and stuff. I mean, this book is kind of 2:25:32.560 --> 2:25:35.720 heavy on the monologues and the discussions. It's kind of 2:25:35.760 --> 2:25:39.879 like Alice Sucksley's soup box for all his ideas, just 2:25:40.120 --> 2:25:43.359 laying them all out there. Right. So Will enters Palace 2:25:43.400 --> 2:25:46.360 a cynic, but by time he comes out, he's like 2:25:47.440 --> 2:25:52.560 he's had like layers on layers of epiphanies. And I 2:25:52.560 --> 2:25:54.640 don't know for those who have been reading to one 2:25:54.640 --> 2:26:01.880 of everything recently. Um in chapter two there the authors 2:26:01.959 --> 2:26:04.039 David When Grown, David Group. But this sort of outline 2:26:04.600 --> 2:26:07.120 some of the discussions that were happening that were happening 2:26:07.160 --> 2:26:10.920 between Europeans and Indigenous Americans at the time of arrival, 2:26:11.480 --> 2:26:16.280 and how those discussions were shaping both um apparentily the 2:26:16.280 --> 2:26:21.720 Europeans view of society. Interestingly, it's kind of like reflected 2:26:21.760 --> 2:26:24.080 here because you know, I have this white man who 2:26:24.080 --> 2:26:27.640 pulls up with all his English ideas and it's basically 2:26:28.280 --> 2:26:33.560 these indigenous inhabitants and parlor basically deconstructing his ideas through dialogue, UM, 2:26:33.600 --> 2:26:39.760 and through debate and discussion, and unfortunately it doesn't end 2:26:39.959 --> 2:26:43.520 very well. Despite you know, being convinced of the purity 2:26:43.520 --> 2:26:46.480 and brilliance of the polonies we have lived in, Um, 2:26:46.520 --> 2:26:49.800 he already made the deal with the industrialist and pola 2:26:50.280 --> 2:26:54.800 um Is has basically been sold by an by neighboring 2:26:54.840 --> 2:27:02.879 country and so it's downfall is now inevitable and that's 2:27:02.879 --> 2:27:06.200 how it ends. Oh and also UM will want to 2:27:06.240 --> 2:27:10.200 be kind of as like an LSD. Well'sund really LSD. 2:27:10.240 --> 2:27:12.280 But it's like a psychedelic trip. Yeah, it's like a 2:27:12.320 --> 2:27:18.080 combination like pilocybin almost yeah, yeah, and true how that 2:27:18.160 --> 2:27:21.400 Sucksley fashion? Yeah Yeah, there's like a lot of the 2:27:21.480 --> 2:27:26.120 tropes and like themes that were president Brave New World 2:27:26.560 --> 2:27:30.200 exists in island, but as like their inversion so like 2:27:30.240 --> 2:27:33.680 in terms of like it showed like the like Brave 2:27:33.720 --> 2:27:38.879 New World that's written before Huxley had psychedelics. It was 2:27:39.120 --> 2:27:41.720 like his his version of drug use is so different 2:27:41.720 --> 2:27:45.800 in that book. It's more like a pacifying drug Um, 2:27:46.080 --> 2:27:48.760 whereas the drug use in Island. It's more like an 2:27:49.080 --> 2:27:51.960 like an enlightening drug. So, but there's a whole bunch 2:27:52.000 --> 2:27:55.280 of themes that like parallel but are also inverted on 2:27:55.320 --> 2:27:59.000 each other. Yeah, exactly exactly, And we're gonna get into 2:27:59.040 --> 2:28:03.680 those themes just now. But to summarize, Brave New World 2:28:03.800 --> 2:28:08.720 is basically humans becoming less than human because of all 2:28:08.760 --> 2:28:15.640 these technological and sociological um efforts, where as Ireland is 2:28:15.680 --> 2:28:20.000 like the opposite we had. You know, humans are able 2:28:20.040 --> 2:28:24.040 to come into the fullness of the humanness um while 2:28:24.160 --> 2:28:28.039 still using science, except in a way to enhance their 2:28:28.120 --> 2:28:32.600 quality of life. I don't know if I missed any 2:28:32.640 --> 2:28:35.320 aspect of either plots that and if you want to 2:28:35.400 --> 2:28:40.680 like touch on a real quick no, no, no reallyy okay, yeah, 2:28:40.720 --> 2:28:41.800 I mean I will say the one thing is it 2:28:41.879 --> 2:28:45.120 just because Brave New World also has this sort of 2:28:45.160 --> 2:28:50.520 like weird like going to a reservation plot that's like, yeah, 2:28:50.920 --> 2:28:52.920 kind of a b plot, but you see, sort of 2:28:53.040 --> 2:28:56.600 it's another one of those things instead of like I 2:28:56.600 --> 2:29:01.440 don't know if inverteds the right word, but the sort 2:29:01.440 --> 2:29:05.800 of context of it is very very different in Island 2:29:05.840 --> 2:29:10.640 than it isn't Brave New World. Yeah, yeah, because I mean, 2:29:10.680 --> 2:29:15.640 in a sense you have this outside protagonist who is 2:29:16.440 --> 2:29:23.400 introduced to this alternate way of living UM and is 2:29:23.400 --> 2:29:29.120 transformed by it, you know, except in Brief New World, 2:29:29.280 --> 2:29:34.400 you know, he ends up killing himself and in Ireland, 2:29:35.200 --> 2:29:40.760 well he already sold out the island. You know. I 2:29:40.800 --> 2:29:43.560 will say, UM, one criticism that I want to get 2:29:43.600 --> 2:29:46.000 out of the way before we get into like the 2:29:46.040 --> 2:29:49.400 concepts and you know how they might apply to politics 2:29:49.640 --> 2:29:55.040 as a whole. Really is Huxley, like a lot of 2:29:55.080 --> 2:30:00.640 authors and thinkers and ideologus of his time, has this 2:30:01.959 --> 2:30:10.800 very unsettling a fixation on overpopulation. It's kind of like 2:30:10.800 --> 2:30:13.680 what we were talking about UM with the last book 2:30:13.680 --> 2:30:17.039 we discussed here UM, this sort of weird fixation and 2:30:17.080 --> 2:30:20.200 over population and you know, people dying out and that 2:30:20.280 --> 2:30:29.040 kind of thing UM in in parliam in Ireland there's 2:30:29.080 --> 2:30:35.200 a sort of acceptance of UM of population as something 2:30:35.240 --> 2:30:39.160 that needs to be you know, avoided until I guess 2:30:39.160 --> 2:30:43.520 it brings us to the first theme, which is the 2:30:43.680 --> 2:30:49.720 use of contraception in both books, right, Like, on one hand, 2:30:49.760 --> 2:30:55.040 you have in Brave New World where there's like mandatory 2:30:55.080 --> 2:30:59.240 contraception and people are literally not allowed to like naturally 2:30:59.680 --> 2:31:02.959 give both. You know, they have to have babies through 2:31:03.000 --> 2:31:08.720 test you, whereas in parlor, you know, there's reproductive education 2:31:08.920 --> 2:31:14.039 and reproductive choice and expressive sex. And it's really like 2:31:14.080 --> 2:31:18.320 a complete contrast. So I guess I want to do 2:31:18.400 --> 2:31:24.640 something like I like speculating and thinking about how anarchy 2:31:24.879 --> 2:31:27.600 would operate. UM. I think there needs to be a 2:31:27.600 --> 2:31:32.240 lot more of that in terms of UM creative works 2:31:32.280 --> 2:31:35.600 and discussions. I mean, like there was at the Cafe 2:31:35.840 --> 2:31:39.520 by mal Tester, and there are some like utopian fictions 2:31:39.520 --> 2:31:45.280 out there, but I like less than utopian, but still 2:31:46.520 --> 2:31:50.880 interesting explorations of anarchist society. It's like there's Lucky the 2:31:50.920 --> 2:31:54.320 Quins that is possessed. It is interesting to me that 2:31:54.760 --> 2:31:58.440 even in mainstream sort of imagining, whenever there's an attempt 2:31:58.560 --> 2:32:01.680 to envision a utopia, there's nearly always a lot of 2:32:01.720 --> 2:32:06.560 anarchist principles involved in that. It's basically impossible to imagine 2:32:06.600 --> 2:32:10.800 a utopia without aspects of anarchist theory making it into 2:32:10.840 --> 2:32:13.440 it exactly. And it tends to be like some elements 2:32:13.440 --> 2:32:16.600 of anti work in there, and like you know, like 2:32:17.800 --> 2:32:24.360 to post work, post hierarchy, freedom of association. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 2:32:24.720 --> 2:32:27.039 as I kind of want to look at that, look 2:32:27.040 --> 2:32:30.400 at these works through that lens as well. Here mostly Island, 2:32:30.480 --> 2:32:35.039 considering Island is a clue so actually than free New 2:32:35.040 --> 2:32:43.400 World is Yeah, i'd say so just a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, 2:32:43.600 --> 2:32:50.200 Like when you look at how sexual liberation is treated 2:32:50.240 --> 2:32:54.320 in Ireland, it is pretty much an echo of what 2:32:54.400 --> 2:32:58.840 anarchists was seeing about free love in like nearly twenty 2:32:59.120 --> 2:33:01.520 like late nineties Sentry. You know, because I feel like 2:33:01.560 --> 2:33:05.680 I'm a good one, like free choice and contraceptive access 2:33:05.840 --> 2:33:10.000 and that sort of thing, reproductive choice, free love. It's 2:33:10.080 --> 2:33:16.280 really in Paula, I would see, Um they have this 2:33:16.400 --> 2:33:20.400 sort of elements as well of like communal child rearing, 2:33:21.760 --> 2:33:25.000 I mean in Um, which is another thing I spoke 2:33:25.000 --> 2:33:27.960 about that and like my video in December on the family, 2:33:28.360 --> 2:33:32.879 like the fact that humans basically evolved in an alloparental arrangement, 2:33:33.000 --> 2:33:36.800 in a corporative reading arrangement. Yeah, there's because of capitalism 2:33:37.080 --> 2:33:39.680 moved away from that. Yeah, there's a lot of if 2:33:39.720 --> 2:33:42.760 you if you study how kind of different societies that 2:33:42.800 --> 2:33:45.360 were not capitalists handled child rearing, there's a lot of 2:33:45.400 --> 2:33:49.320 like very interesting. I think my favorite is it was 2:33:49.440 --> 2:33:54.600 some indigenous group in Um South America, whose like cultural 2:33:54.680 --> 2:33:58.680 belief was that you didn't you didn't have like one 2:33:59.160 --> 2:34:02.000 man have sex with a woman, and that like leads 2:34:02.840 --> 2:34:06.280 conceiving a child. It starts the process. And so once 2:34:06.320 --> 2:34:08.680 you've started the process of making a child, the woman 2:34:08.720 --> 2:34:11.000 then is going to pick out all of the guys 2:34:11.040 --> 2:34:13.280 that she thinks have traits that she wants to be 2:34:13.560 --> 2:34:15.959 like part of the child she's making and has sex 2:34:16.000 --> 2:34:19.440 with them, because you're like gradually building the child by 2:34:19.480 --> 2:34:23.039 having like adding additional sperm to it, which means that 2:34:23.440 --> 2:34:25.680 when they have the kid, all of those guys that 2:34:25.720 --> 2:34:28.720 she had sex pregnant have a responsibility to rear the 2:34:28.800 --> 2:34:31.959 child and teach it things, which I think is objectively 2:34:32.000 --> 2:34:34.160 the best way to treat kids. I mean, even like 2:34:34.680 --> 2:34:37.880 it's that's such an interesting metaphysical concept in terms of 2:34:37.920 --> 2:34:41.160 like what constitutes like even like the the idea of 2:34:41.200 --> 2:34:43.840 genetic makeup, because even though it's not like literally true, 2:34:44.240 --> 2:34:47.280 it's still like if you can convince yourself of that 2:34:47.400 --> 2:34:50.199 in your head, then it kind of is physically true, 2:34:50.840 --> 2:34:52.440 and it will it will be true enough for the 2:34:52.560 --> 2:35:00.280 kid because like really because most of the father those 2:35:00.320 --> 2:35:03.640 treats are gonna like manifest in the child anyway because 2:35:03.640 --> 2:35:05.600 they were raised by them. Therefore, I think we should 2:35:05.640 --> 2:35:10.400 all agree to just act like it works that way. Yeah, 2:35:10.440 --> 2:35:12.000 but I mean like and also like in terms of 2:35:12.000 --> 2:35:15.200 like the group living in Island versus like Brave New 2:35:15.200 --> 2:35:17.960 World everywhere else, it's always like you don't you have 2:35:18.040 --> 2:35:21.080 group living because you've lost like the idea of individuality, 2:35:21.240 --> 2:35:24.520 right versus groups living in Island is more like you 2:35:24.520 --> 2:35:27.800 know how like anarchists have like group homes and that's 2:35:27.840 --> 2:35:30.840 it's it's very similar to group living allows you to 2:35:31.040 --> 2:35:33.880 be the best version of yourself because the best version 2:35:33.879 --> 2:35:38.240 of yourself exists in the community. Yeah, exactly. There's like 2:35:38.320 --> 2:35:40.480 there's like a barista or whatever. There's a kind of 2:35:40.520 --> 2:35:42.480 like like a jokey fruition fist. I think about a 2:35:42.480 --> 2:35:44.320 lot where it's like if you see a block and 2:35:45.080 --> 2:35:46.560 like you're looking at it like a black block, right, 2:35:46.600 --> 2:35:48.840 It's like the way you can tell that there are 2:35:48.920 --> 2:35:50.640 mooise involved is if you see a bunch of people 2:35:50.680 --> 2:35:54.120 actually like legitimately wearing all the same thing. It's like 2:35:54.120 --> 2:35:56.280 like it's it's it's like it's it's really like it's 2:35:56.320 --> 2:36:00.440 it's it's extremely rare that like even even when you're 2:36:00.480 --> 2:36:02.240 doing this for security reasons that you can get a 2:36:02.280 --> 2:36:05.320 bunch of anarchists who actually literally all wear exactly the 2:36:05.360 --> 2:36:08.800 same thing, because it's like it's like, yeah, you have 2:36:08.840 --> 2:36:10.200 this sort of like I mean, okay, this is this 2:36:10.240 --> 2:36:13.680 is not like always true, but like it's it's I 2:36:13.720 --> 2:36:16.520 don't know, you you you have this thing where even 2:36:16.560 --> 2:36:18.920 when you're like even when anarchists are like trying to 2:36:18.959 --> 2:36:21.840 sort of like fade into a single mass, it's like 2:36:22.480 --> 2:36:25.240 be like like they literally can't do it because everyone 2:36:25.480 --> 2:36:29.480 has this sort of like this individual definitely seeing people 2:36:29.600 --> 2:36:32.080 be bad at block more often than I've seen them 2:36:32.080 --> 2:36:34.520 be good at it, Yeah, it's like whi I mean 2:36:34.560 --> 2:36:36.880 like the actual hiding part of it. Yeah yeah, but 2:36:37.080 --> 2:36:42.480 I don't know, like it's it's it's it's there's there's 2:36:42.520 --> 2:36:45.720 there there there there's a way of sort of egalitarianism 2:36:45.720 --> 2:36:48.120 in sociality where like you treat everyone as if they 2:36:48.120 --> 2:36:51.120 were exactly the same and like and you know, and 2:36:51.120 --> 2:36:52.879 there there's models of this word. It's like yeah, it's 2:36:52.879 --> 2:36:55.360 like okay, you actually try to like force everyone to 2:36:55.400 --> 2:36:57.000 be exactly the same, where like everyone to be exactly 2:36:57.040 --> 2:36:59.120 same in the class and like that sucks. And you 2:36:59.120 --> 2:37:01.840 shouldn't do it. And the alternative to that is everyone 2:37:02.080 --> 2:37:03.880 is just sort of like in a group, but they're 2:37:03.920 --> 2:37:09.080 all like I don't I'm not entirely sure if this 2:37:09.080 --> 2:37:11.520 don't make any sense, but it's I don't know, there 2:37:12.080 --> 2:37:15.760 are a group thing. Yeah. Yeah, it's like the purpose 2:37:15.840 --> 2:37:18.400 of the group is to like maintain like you know, 2:37:18.440 --> 2:37:21.640 maybe like maintain the differentiation of the individual. Yeah, to 2:37:21.720 --> 2:37:24.160 foster what makes the dividence is really good at being 2:37:24.520 --> 2:37:26.920 like their own person and give them the tools that 2:37:27.000 --> 2:37:29.920 can you can set that up. Yeah, I think exactly. 2:37:30.200 --> 2:37:34.039 Like culturally, we have like problems thinking about that because 2:37:34.800 --> 2:37:37.720 like the sort of American version of individuality has to 2:37:37.760 --> 2:37:40.439 do with like no, no, no, you're you're an individual 2:37:40.480 --> 2:37:42.600 because you have no connections to anyone else. And it's like, 2:37:42.640 --> 2:37:45.800 well this sucks and it is bad because and that 2:37:45.879 --> 2:37:48.360 kind of goes back to the whole spoon building a 2:37:48.400 --> 2:37:51.760 baby concept. I didn't think I would ever use that 2:37:51.840 --> 2:38:02.680 freeze individuals only individuals because their combination of influences are 2:38:02.800 --> 2:38:05.879 unique to them. Yeah, well not just that. I mean 2:38:05.920 --> 2:38:08.280 obviously it's a gene's a component, and I'll know a lot, 2:38:08.360 --> 2:38:12.560 but I think key aspect of it is that you know, 2:38:12.720 --> 2:38:16.480 because we are reason these different environments surrounded by different people, 2:38:16.480 --> 2:38:19.400 we have different experiences. That's what builds us up. You know, 2:38:19.440 --> 2:38:21.240 Like I can I can already name off the top 2:38:21.240 --> 2:38:24.000 of my head, like a bunch of like defining movements 2:38:24.000 --> 2:38:27.240 from my childhood. You know that basically changed my course, 2:38:27.360 --> 2:38:29.440 you know, like the one time I got cyber bullied, 2:38:29.520 --> 2:38:32.560 not basically like shifted my perspective and my approach the 2:38:32.600 --> 2:38:34.800 internet to that kind of thing. You know, it's like 2:38:35.720 --> 2:38:42.400 it really, I really can't imagine how someone could come 2:38:42.400 --> 2:38:46.520 away with the idea that an individual is just an 2:38:46.560 --> 2:38:49.000 individual on their own. Yeah, they just they just pop 2:38:49.040 --> 2:38:52.480 out and are that thing. Yeah, I mean yeah, because 2:38:52.520 --> 2:38:54.800 like a large portion of you was built up of 2:38:55.640 --> 2:38:59.879 previous you, and previously like exists, like your previous existences 2:39:00.480 --> 2:39:04.320 makes a large portion of yourself. And like sure you 2:39:04.320 --> 2:39:06.560 can say you have a little bit of like ego 2:39:06.680 --> 2:39:10.360 from the start, like your actual self self that that 2:39:10.560 --> 2:39:12.680 you know, contributed to the way you interpret events, which 2:39:12.720 --> 2:39:16.240 then will in turn build your personality. But I think 2:39:16.280 --> 2:39:19.040 these things are not opposing. These things work in tandem. 2:39:19.080 --> 2:39:22.560 But yeah, yes, it is the whole group living components 2:39:22.600 --> 2:39:25.120 and also in that group living components. You notice and 2:39:25.440 --> 2:39:28.800 at one point in the book, Um, one of the 2:39:28.879 --> 2:39:33.640 children like basically in passing mentions that you know, they 2:39:33.680 --> 2:39:36.680 don't want to go by a certain person because they 2:39:36.720 --> 2:39:39.240 are mad at them or whatever. And so they basically 2:39:39.280 --> 2:39:42.480 have that freedom to remove themselves from that situation and 2:39:42.560 --> 2:39:46.920 go on, um, sleep at another house or another space 2:39:47.480 --> 2:39:51.199 until that sort of situation is resolved. And I think 2:39:51.280 --> 2:39:57.760 that also would really be a crucial element of society, 2:39:57.800 --> 2:40:00.600 particularly for children, having that freedom of associate and freedom 2:40:00.640 --> 2:40:07.000 of movement, because imagine how many abusive situations could be 2:40:07.280 --> 2:40:10.879 avoided over him. Indeed, if children had the ability to 2:40:10.920 --> 2:40:14.879 come out of it. You know, we strict children of 2:40:14.959 --> 2:40:22.040 choice and allows these sorts of dynamics to persist. Yeahstand 2:40:22.040 --> 2:40:25.760 these dynamics that persist in the next generation and so 2:40:25.879 --> 2:40:28.360 on and so on. It's this thing that's having a 2:40:28.400 --> 2:40:31.080 resurgence in the United States right now and is like 2:40:31.160 --> 2:40:33.879 at the core of all of the book banning in 2:40:33.920 --> 2:40:36.920 the anti trans legislation, which is this idea that like 2:40:37.879 --> 2:40:40.920 kids shouldn't have a choice because that would interfere with 2:40:40.959 --> 2:40:43.840 parents having absolute control over the life of their child. 2:40:43.920 --> 2:40:46.480 And then includes the control to like, if a child 2:40:46.560 --> 2:40:49.800 says I'm this or I'm that, the parent can say 2:40:49.840 --> 2:40:54.920 absolutely not. Yeah, exactly if you had like this, if 2:40:54.959 --> 2:40:58.600 you sort of like too with like someone from from 2:40:58.640 --> 2:41:01.720 the past or someone who lives in like a cooperative 2:41:01.720 --> 2:41:04.879 reading arrangement, that the pear and the child is the 2:41:04.959 --> 2:41:08.200 pearance property entirely, it would look at you like real 2:41:08.280 --> 2:41:11.800 funny because the child is part of the community, doesn't 2:41:11.800 --> 2:41:14.560 belong to anyone, you know, if it belongs to anything. 2:41:14.600 --> 2:41:17.320 It just belongs to the community as a whole, as 2:41:17.400 --> 2:41:25.360 as we all do. Yeah. But yeah, another element I 2:41:25.440 --> 2:41:30.520 think I find, um, I find really interesting and the 2:41:30.520 --> 2:41:34.760 way that probably society operates is that and I guess 2:41:34.760 --> 2:41:40.160 in comparison to brieve New World, unlike in brief New World, 2:41:40.160 --> 2:41:45.240 where drugs are used like UM likes, and like all 2:41:45.360 --> 2:41:49.720 drugs are used for a pacification and control and self 2:41:49.800 --> 2:41:52.320 medication and that kind of thing to sort of like 2:41:52.879 --> 2:41:56.880 chill you out and prevent you from basically going mad 2:41:57.440 --> 2:42:02.400 in a mad society. Um in Pala, you know, Chunky's 2:42:02.520 --> 2:42:07.760 is used for bonding and for enlightenment and for social 2:42:07.840 --> 2:42:12.000 connection and social cohesion. It is really really using that 2:42:12.000 --> 2:42:15.800 that he changes what drugs do in his books, like 2:42:15.920 --> 2:42:22.000 after he starts doing them. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, Now, 2:42:22.040 --> 2:42:24.520 I actually don't know. You know, I used to have 2:42:24.600 --> 2:42:27.640 because I I had the opposite arc with with drugs, 2:42:27.680 --> 2:42:30.959 where I started doing them when I was very young 2:42:31.120 --> 2:42:33.760 and had the belief that like they were kind of 2:42:33.800 --> 2:42:37.200 inherently this mind opening tool that could be used to 2:42:37.240 --> 2:42:42.360 expand the borders of reality within human beings, and as 2:42:42.400 --> 2:42:44.959 an adultum in part through some of the research I've 2:42:45.000 --> 2:42:47.360 done on the far right, come to understand, like, no, 2:42:47.480 --> 2:42:50.600 you can also use them to reinforce the very limited, 2:42:50.720 --> 2:42:53.240 terrible things you already believe, And there are folks who 2:42:53.280 --> 2:43:00.000 do that quite effectively of appeal you esotericism kind of. Yeah, 2:43:00.160 --> 2:43:01.640 I don't know if I just made up that too. 2:43:02.400 --> 2:43:06.360 I like, I like that term. It's thinking of it's 2:43:06.360 --> 2:43:08.560 an accurate it's an accurate term to describe the thing 2:43:08.600 --> 2:43:15.000 we're talking about. I'm taking it, okay, Well, yeah, yeah, 2:43:15.040 --> 2:43:18.200 I mean that that's absolutely correct, because I mean, yeah, 2:43:19.080 --> 2:43:22.560 like those sort of psycho psychedelic substances and stuff. Yeah, 2:43:22.560 --> 2:43:25.720 they can open your mind, but they are as they 2:43:25.760 --> 2:43:29.720 are ultimately drawing from your mind, drawing from your past 2:43:29.760 --> 2:43:33.199 experiences and beliefs in some capacity. The way I always 2:43:33.240 --> 2:43:36.959 describe it is that, like, psychedelics are an acceleberance to 2:43:37.000 --> 2:43:39.360 the fire that you've already built, and they can make 2:43:39.400 --> 2:43:42.080 it flare up, and it can be really cool and awesome, 2:43:42.440 --> 2:43:44.880 and it can flare up and be utterly terrified and 2:43:45.000 --> 2:43:46.720 be like oh no, no, no, no, no no no no, 2:43:47.400 --> 2:43:50.320 but it's always kind of amplifying the things that are 2:43:50.360 --> 2:43:54.560 you've already built through like the kindling of yourself. Yeah. 2:43:55.040 --> 2:43:59.440 It psychedelics do not create things um within you, but 2:43:59.560 --> 2:44:03.160 they can lead you to realize things you wouldn't already realize, 2:44:03.240 --> 2:44:06.600 or they can lead you to reinforce things that you're 2:44:06.640 --> 2:44:08.480 already doing. And it kind of depends on what you 2:44:08.560 --> 2:44:10.560 go into it with. It's like you know, Leary said, 2:44:10.600 --> 2:44:12.760 it's I think it was leally set setting in dose, 2:44:12.920 --> 2:44:15.840 and like your mind set is one of the most 2:44:15.920 --> 2:44:18.520 important things for what's actually going to happen when you 2:44:18.720 --> 2:44:25.199 when you take psychedelics. Yeah, and if you're a Nazi, 2:44:25.760 --> 2:44:28.959 you can get better being a Nazi from taking as 2:44:29.360 --> 2:44:32.360 if you're a Nazi, you're gonna see Hitler pull up, Yes, 2:44:32.520 --> 2:44:35.400 my son, continue the good work. That's That's the thing 2:44:35.440 --> 2:44:37.200 a lot of people don't understand when I've tried to, 2:44:37.280 --> 2:44:38.720 like when I tried to talk to people who are 2:44:38.760 --> 2:44:41.640 like really obviously pro psychedelics and like, yeah, they're so 2:44:41.760 --> 2:44:43.800 like freeing that you think about new ways, And then 2:44:43.840 --> 2:44:46.400 I explained to them, there's like, well this isn't this 2:44:46.440 --> 2:44:49.039 is an easy segue. But if somehow the conversation goes 2:44:49.040 --> 2:44:50.920 to the point to be talking about all the Nazis 2:44:50.959 --> 2:44:54.000 who do psychedelics and and then like do like weird 2:44:54.120 --> 2:44:58.480 esoteric rituals while doing like like psyched drugs, they can 2:44:58.560 --> 2:45:02.560 confuse these people because like how could you be a Nazi? Well, 2:45:02.680 --> 2:45:05.240 you're you know, in that mindset, and like, well it's 2:45:05.240 --> 2:45:07.039 actually for all of yeah, for all these reasons that 2:45:07.040 --> 2:45:11.160 we've discussed, it can actually assist within that like it's 2:45:11.200 --> 2:45:15.680 like fantastical, genocidal, conspiratorial thinking. It can really can really 2:45:15.680 --> 2:45:17.800 give that a lot, a lot of credence in someone's brains, 2:45:17.879 --> 2:45:20.440 because especially if you've spoken to someone who has taken 2:45:20.480 --> 2:45:23.600 psychos and I've had a specific kind of experience, you 2:45:23.640 --> 2:45:26.120 can't talk them all to that experience. Yeah, as far 2:45:26.160 --> 2:45:29.080 as they consume that is that is solidified in the mind. 2:45:29.320 --> 2:45:31.840 You know, this is reality. I just had a glimpse 2:45:31.920 --> 2:45:37.240 that the reality kind of thing, you know. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. 2:45:37.280 --> 2:45:38.800 It's one of those like if you want, if you 2:45:38.840 --> 2:45:43.200 want an illustration of how psychedelics do not work the 2:45:43.240 --> 2:45:46.840 way some people claim, just make a note of the 2:45:46.879 --> 2:45:50.199 fact that at every street fight between fascists and anti 2:45:50.240 --> 2:45:54.360 fascists in Portland, both sides, every single person had fucking 2:45:54.560 --> 2:45:59.879 weed on them, Like the fucking the far right like 2:46:00.120 --> 2:46:03.440 smoking pot as much as everybody else. Um, they just 2:46:03.520 --> 2:46:10.600 also do cocaine. Where is where is? Antifa does yeah, yeah, 2:46:10.640 --> 2:46:14.240 and does ketamine. The Proud Boys do cocaine, and they 2:46:14.280 --> 2:46:18.160 both have everybody's got joints, and both people and people 2:46:18.200 --> 2:46:21.040 and people on both sides have dropped acid and taking shrimps. 2:46:21.920 --> 2:46:24.360 Yeah I can. I can say this from a point 2:46:24.360 --> 2:46:27.200 of journalistic certainty because during one of the rallies where 2:46:27.240 --> 2:46:30.160 there was a permitted event at the Federal Park, the 2:46:30.200 --> 2:46:33.400 police were there and telling people they could not take 2:46:33.440 --> 2:46:36.320 weed onto the Federal Park because it was federally illegal, 2:46:36.760 --> 2:46:42.040 and every like both sides, people were like alright, shit, Michael, 2:46:42.080 --> 2:46:44.360 turning back because they couldn't walk on with the weed 2:46:44.360 --> 2:46:48.080 in their pockets. That's gonna who kind of wounds to 2:46:48.080 --> 2:46:50.720 me because m I don't know if you all saw 2:46:50.760 --> 2:46:54.320 this teet I put on recently, Like there's still this 2:46:55.320 --> 2:47:00.080 resistance to drugs and particularly to like kind of this 2:47:00.760 --> 2:47:03.360 and you would think that, you know, after decades of 2:47:03.680 --> 2:47:10.040 research and decades of understanding and really decades, not even decades, 2:47:10.240 --> 2:47:14.240 centuries of its use in various you know, religious and 2:47:14.240 --> 2:47:18.279 spiritual practices that by now, you know, in a post 2:47:18.360 --> 2:47:21.880 colonial country would reach the point where you know, we 2:47:22.040 --> 2:47:28.760 let it go and we deternalize it. But although the 2:47:28.879 --> 2:47:31.520 we're kind of in the process of it, we still 2:47:31.560 --> 2:47:36.640 have this situation where the police are like constantly burning 2:47:36.720 --> 2:47:39.960 down like fields of cannabis. Like they pull up and 2:47:39.959 --> 2:47:44.640 they're like, we just seized and burned down like one 2:47:44.680 --> 2:47:48.680 million dollars worth of cannabis and arrested. This is than 2:47:48.800 --> 2:47:54.240 the others, Like, why are we still at this point 2:47:54.320 --> 2:48:03.439 where um, basic basic like plants and tubs and medicines 2:48:03.520 --> 2:48:08.240 and whatnot. Still he saying this stigma it's not grounded 2:48:08.240 --> 2:48:11.600 in any sort of reality or logic. You know, it's 2:48:11.680 --> 2:48:19.360 just colonially, you're a prejudice. But that was brief aside, Yeah, yeah, 2:48:19.879 --> 2:48:22.959 I the only thing I have much left to see 2:48:23.720 --> 2:48:29.160 boat Island and brief New World. Well, you know, listeners, 2:48:29.280 --> 2:48:32.720 go home, put on some Hitler speeches, drop some absolutely 2:48:33.120 --> 2:48:37.440 absolutely not that is the worst idea. Do not do that, 2:48:37.840 --> 2:48:42.959 Go to the woods, go do basically literally anything else 2:48:43.120 --> 2:48:47.320 besides that specific thing. It's that specific thing that is different. 2:48:47.400 --> 2:48:51.160 Different people can can disagree. No, like that is like 2:48:51.240 --> 2:48:52.879 one of the worst things to do to your own 2:48:52.920 --> 2:48:56.680 brain and psyche. Absolutely not. Yeah, just do whatever, whether 2:48:56.879 --> 2:49:01.200 literally anything else. Watch Star Trek, put on, put on 2:49:01.240 --> 2:49:03.400 off the I have. I've watched a lot of Star 2:49:03.440 --> 2:49:06.160 Trek while tripping. See, there's there's so many better things 2:49:06.200 --> 2:49:11.200 to do that that thing you've said. Mm hm, go 2:49:11.320 --> 2:49:15.560 watch the movie Conspiracy starring Kenneth brand Of a shipload 2:49:15.560 --> 2:49:20.040 of mescal and that could be funny. They don't even 2:49:20.080 --> 2:49:25.400 know what mescaline is, neither instructions. Do not compute if 2:49:25.440 --> 2:49:31.680 if acid made time different? What? Yeah, that's kind of mescaline. 2:49:31.680 --> 2:49:37.040 I mean, mescaline is like the the active thing inside pot. Yeah, 2:49:37.440 --> 2:49:40.920 mescalin is is a psychedelic the most intense time dilation 2:49:40.959 --> 2:49:43.320 I've ever experienced, where like you will feel like weeks 2:49:43.320 --> 2:49:47.119 have passed and it's been like seven hours. Um, it's 2:49:47.120 --> 2:49:50.760 pretty dope. I definitely recommend mescal and everybody go take 2:49:50.800 --> 2:49:56.800 mescaline even where at that, Um, well you if you, 2:49:56.959 --> 2:49:59.760 if you, there is a way to get the cact 2:50:00.120 --> 2:50:02.720 which are legal pretty much everywhere because they're just cactuses 2:50:02.760 --> 2:50:05.119 and a lot of people use them decoratively, and then 2:50:05.400 --> 2:50:09.240 using a what do you call the pressure cooker, you 2:50:09.240 --> 2:50:11.720 can you can get the mescal and out of the cacti. 2:50:11.879 --> 2:50:13.520 I've known people who have done it. I have not 2:50:13.680 --> 2:50:16.240 personally done it. Obviously, that would that would that would 2:50:16.240 --> 2:50:18.800 be a crime. Never criminal. We would never, we would 2:50:18.840 --> 2:50:22.000 never advocate that. Yeah, but but there are ways too. 2:50:22.120 --> 2:50:25.000 There are ways that like a person with minimal resources 2:50:25.080 --> 2:50:28.720 can get mescal and out of out of the right cactus. 2:50:28.879 --> 2:50:32.880 And people have done it, you know, So there's the 2:50:32.879 --> 2:50:45.440 criminals have done people. There's this thing anyway. Yeah, alright, 2:50:45.440 --> 2:50:48.400 Saint Andrew, that was awesome. I'm gonna go to read 2:50:48.400 --> 2:50:51.800 Island now. Um it's a good world. And I haven't 2:50:51.800 --> 2:50:54.680 read this. I would write bummed, I guess at the 2:50:54.760 --> 2:50:58.160 end of this, I am kind of bummed that as 2:50:58.280 --> 2:51:02.440 as imaginative guy as he was, his This was his 2:51:02.480 --> 2:51:05.480 final book too, well, in his utopian story had to 2:51:05.560 --> 2:51:11.160 end with it being crushed essentially by industrial expansion. Yeah, 2:51:11.240 --> 2:51:13.280 and like co option, I mean like it is it is, 2:51:13.440 --> 2:51:15.960 it is interesting. Yeah, this this was his final book. 2:51:16.200 --> 2:51:20.240 This was like his like send off in like in 2:51:20.280 --> 2:51:23.800 a way. That's that's an interesting component, right because like 2:51:24.000 --> 2:51:27.039 in Ireland yet like the utopian society, but there is 2:51:27.760 --> 2:51:33.840 a king, yeah, and a queen mother, but not they 2:51:33.840 --> 2:51:37.560 don't have like the kind of power that you know, 2:51:37.560 --> 2:51:42.200 we were typically, Um we still upon kings and queen mothers. 2:51:42.280 --> 2:51:45.160 You know, they're still they're still able to destroy the 2:51:45.280 --> 2:51:49.680 society ultimately by collaborating with the military dictator enighbor and 2:51:49.800 --> 2:51:55.440 the industrialist oil guy. But I mean they are not 2:51:55.640 --> 2:51:58.000 really that involved in the day today run into their society, 2:51:58.040 --> 2:52:03.080 you know, like Hallo would be the same with without them. 2:52:03.120 --> 2:52:06.520 And interestingly, the reason they were taking parts in the 2:52:06.600 --> 2:52:10.920 destruction upon these societies because they were educated in Europe 2:52:11.240 --> 2:52:16.920 by Christians and then went back to Parlo. Yeah, it's 2:52:16.959 --> 2:52:19.800 interesting because he's kind of playing with it. Sounds like 2:52:19.840 --> 2:52:23.760 the same thing Token was, because like Jared Tolkien at 2:52:23.760 --> 2:52:25.680 the end of his life kind of identified himself as 2:52:25.720 --> 2:52:28.560 like this weird sort of monarchist anarchist where he wanted 2:52:28.600 --> 2:52:32.080 there to be thought the ideal society was one in 2:52:32.120 --> 2:52:35.279 which people, you know, there was people could not exercise 2:52:35.320 --> 2:52:38.480 power over each other, but there was a little hierarchy, 2:52:38.520 --> 2:52:40.840 and that you had a king who couldn't actually do anything, 2:52:40.879 --> 2:52:45.200 whose purpose was to act as a figurehead. Um and 2:52:45.360 --> 2:52:47.800 I I don't entirely get what he was going through here. 2:52:47.800 --> 2:52:49.720 He wrote a lot on the subject himself. And it's 2:52:49.760 --> 2:52:52.360 interesting that Huxley is kind of playing with the same idea, 2:52:52.480 --> 2:52:55.520 but is is obviously being like, well, this is a 2:52:55.560 --> 2:53:00.000 bad idea. You know, it could only work for so long, um, YadA, YadA. 2:53:00.080 --> 2:53:02.560 I don't know. I find that compelling. Again, I want 2:53:02.560 --> 2:53:04.600 to read this, and that's something I may dig into more. 2:53:04.720 --> 2:53:07.879 Is kind of like how Token conceived of the ideal 2:53:07.959 --> 2:53:12.800 sort of monarchy versus how how Huxley was thinking about it. 2:53:12.840 --> 2:53:17.480 I think that's kind of interesting. Yeah, well that's gonna 2:53:17.480 --> 2:53:19.840 do it for us here, and it could happen here. 2:53:20.760 --> 2:53:28.160 Uh Garrison tour dot com to sponsored to dot com. No, 2:53:28.400 --> 2:53:33.400 just drop some acid and Google Hitler. Okay again, like seriously, 2:53:33.480 --> 2:53:36.600 don't don't, don't literally do anything else. Don't do that. 2:53:37.920 --> 2:53:42.120 The woods are lovely, the beach is magnificent. Talk to 2:53:42.160 --> 2:53:46.119 the ocean. It's so much mountain mountain unless you yea 2:53:46.280 --> 2:53:51.840 like something. Yeah yeah, go to a to have go 2:53:51.920 --> 2:53:56.680 to a comic con U literally think my suggestions. I 2:53:56.720 --> 2:54:00.520 will talk about that experience at a later date. All right, 2:54:01.120 --> 2:54:10.120 that is uh, that is the show. Hey, We'll be 2:54:10.160 --> 2:54:13.520 back Monday with more episodes every week from now until 2:54:13.520 --> 2:54:15.760 the heat death of the Universe. It Could Happen Here 2:54:15.800 --> 2:54:18.439 is a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts 2:54:18.440 --> 2:54:21.040 from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media 2:54:21.120 --> 2:54:22.879 dot com, or check us out on the I Heart 2:54:22.959 --> 2:54:26.000 Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 2:54:26.520 --> 2:54:28.640 You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 2:54:28.720 --> 2:54:32.200 monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks 2:54:32.200 --> 2:54:32.720 for listening.