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Speaker 1: Hi everyone. Before the episode starts, we just wanted to

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Speaker 1: do some quick content warnings. We want to be better

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Speaker 1: about doing those moving forward, so just to let you know.

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Speaker 1: In the discussion we talk about self harm as well

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Speaker 1: as physical and sexual assault. And now here's the episode.

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Speaker 1: On the Doll Cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women and um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and

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Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest

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Speaker 1: start changing it with the beck Del cast. Jamie, do

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Speaker 1: you want to start this one? No? I don't know

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Speaker 1: what to say. Okay, me either. Oh here's something okay right?

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Speaker 1: Oh oh Jamie, I hate the way you're you sniffle.

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Speaker 1: You're always sniffling. Okay, let's have sex. Wow. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the bed Time and iconic intro that passed the vessels

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Speaker 1: it did, um well, but welcome anyways. That's literally just

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Speaker 1: something that happens in the movie. That was a that

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Speaker 1: was just that was This is a re enacting a

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Speaker 1: dramatic reenactment. Sniff, Um, so today's movie. Okay, wait where

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Speaker 1: are we? This is the backtel cast. Welcome, Um, my

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Speaker 1: name is Caitlin Darante. My name is Jamie Loftus and

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Speaker 1: this is a podcast about the representation of women in

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Speaker 1: movies as well as just an overall examination of film

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Speaker 1: through an intersectional feminist lens. We use the Backtel test

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Speaker 1: as a jumping off point for a discussion, that being

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Speaker 1: a media matric invented by queer cartoonist Allison back Dol,

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Speaker 1: sometimes called the back Doll Wallace test that requires that

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Speaker 1: to female identifying or or non male genders, characters with

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Speaker 1: names talk to each other about something other than a man,

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Speaker 1: such as just now when you heard uh, the I sniffed,

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Speaker 1: and then Caitlin and I mutually decided to have sex.

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Speaker 1: That actually is more than we did, more than with them.

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Speaker 1: We actually gave consent. There was Yes, there was consent

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Speaker 1: discussed almost instinctually, like that's just like what one would

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Speaker 1: do it right, not to tune our real consent heads.

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Speaker 1: I love consent. So today's movie is Secretary, and we

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Speaker 1: have a guest who we are very excited about. She

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Speaker 1: is amazing writer comedian Ashley Ray. I'm so happy to

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Speaker 1: be here. I'm so excited to talk about this movie specifically. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I gosh, there's so much to talk about, so much,

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Speaker 1: uh This movie has meant so much to me, and

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Speaker 1: I haven't watched it in a long time, but watching

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Speaker 1: it again it just reaffirmed how much it it just

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Speaker 1: imprinted on me as a child. Did you see it

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Speaker 1: when it first came out, like what's your full hit? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it came out in two thousand, that is when I

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Speaker 1: was like ten years old. But I got a laptop

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Speaker 1: when I was like twelve. I went to this school

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Speaker 1: where they gave everyone a laptop in sixth grade, which

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Speaker 1: is a stupid thing to do. And I would just

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Speaker 1: like make live journal accounts and download movies, like there

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Speaker 1: were live journal account where people would just like share

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Speaker 1: indie movies and that's how I would like watch like

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Speaker 1: French lesbian films. And then someone put up Secretary and

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Speaker 1: I remember the day being like that poster it's like

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Speaker 1: iconic with like the stockings and her bent over, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, this is something I've got to see,

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Speaker 1: and I downloaded it on my laptop and I I

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Speaker 1: just remember watching it with headphones and being like I

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Speaker 1: cannot let my mom know this is happening. So that's like,

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Speaker 1: that's that age when you're like figuring out weird inks.

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Speaker 1: I feel like or at least like you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I now realized probably percent of my canks were

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Speaker 1: inspired by this movie, which is bad, probably horrible. The

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Speaker 1: point is that it happened exactly. I wonder. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I would be such a different person

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Speaker 1: if I had access to a laptop at twelve years old. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why anyone thought that was a good idea.

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Speaker 1: My school still does it to this day. All sixth graders,

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Speaker 1: you get a laptop, you get to keep it until

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Speaker 1: you graduate. I watched so I watched like Pink, Flamingos

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Speaker 1: and just horrible movies at a really young age. Oh

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Speaker 1: my god. And this is this is probably why I

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Speaker 1: came out as like Queer and Polly. By the time

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Speaker 1: I was seventeen, I was like, been there, done it.

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Speaker 1: I've seen it. James Spader showed me how Uh Now,

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Speaker 1: it's just unlearning. It's a lot of unlearning, all the damage,

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Speaker 1: all the movies due to us as young people. Wow,

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Speaker 1: I didn't own a laptop until I was well into

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Speaker 1: my twenties, so I didn't get one to college. That

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Speaker 1: seems like a healthy age. Those seems those are healthy ages. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like by then you're just like, oh, porn is such

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Speaker 1: an exciting luxury. It becomes a luxury thing because you

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Speaker 1: don't have to watch it on a desktop anymore. But

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Speaker 1: then that kind of comes all the way around, and

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Speaker 1: then later in your life you're like, I can watch

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Speaker 1: you know, once you live on your own, you can

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Speaker 1: watch porn on a desktop again, big screen, and then

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Speaker 1: it's a different kind of luxury. Yeah, exactly, Jamie. What

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Speaker 1: about you? What's your relationship with this movie. I've never

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Speaker 1: seen this movie. I've known about it for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and I have a feeling that if I had seen

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Speaker 1: it when I was in like middle school, high school,

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Speaker 1: I would have really really loved it and it would

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Speaker 1: have had like a real effect on me. But I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I just missed it, and I started

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Speaker 1: hearing more about it. I think it was like when

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Speaker 1: the fifty shape Its movies were coming up, this movie

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Speaker 1: was coming up over and over and over. It is like,

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Speaker 1: this is the alternative. If you think fifties shade sucks,

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Speaker 1: you just gotta go back and watch Secretary. So that

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Speaker 1: was kind of like where I would That was like

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Speaker 1: my point of entry because we've covered fifty shades on

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Speaker 1: this show, and in retrospect, I'm not I'm not totally.

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Speaker 1: I'm like the I see what people are saying, but like,

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Speaker 1: maybe they should have. Really, it's definitely a better written movie.

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Speaker 1: Well so every movie is a better written movie. And

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Speaker 1: it's definitely very a very well acted movie too. But

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Speaker 1: then but on the relationship level, I was like, I don't,

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Speaker 1: I don't quite see it. I'm excited to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: He's like the original Mr Gray, like they even have

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Speaker 1: the same name. Yeah, this was the watch where I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh my mind blown, wow, wow, connecting the pieces.

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Speaker 1: It embarrassingly took me until sevent into the movie to

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Speaker 1: be like, oh my gosh, a Mr. Pray for an

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Speaker 1: hour and a half. I've heard this before. I've seen

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Speaker 1: this before, but this time it's with Maggie Jellenhall, and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I mean, I also like dakode to Johnson,

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Speaker 1: but it's just she wasn't set up for success in

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Speaker 1: that franchise. She was not anyways, Okay, what's your what's

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Speaker 1: your heads story with this movie? Um, I didn't see

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Speaker 1: it right away because it came out in two To write, um,

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Speaker 1: I probably didn't see it until I I think I

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Speaker 1: saw it when I was working as an assistant. I've

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Speaker 1: talked about this job before on the podcast because it

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Speaker 1: traumatized me. I was working as an assistant to a

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Speaker 1: literary manager in New York who was extremely verbally and

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Speaker 1: emotionally abusive to me and I I guess I was

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Speaker 1: just like watching media in which other people are verbally

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Speaker 1: and emotionally abused by their boss. I guess, just to

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Speaker 1: relate or have something to relate to. I'm not sure exactly. UM.

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Speaker 1: I didn't connect very much with the movie at that point,

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Speaker 1: and then UM rewatching it. There's a lot I struggled with. UM.

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Speaker 1: I tried to because I worked as a secretary every

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Speaker 1: summer for like four summers at the Comptroller's office, and

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Speaker 1: I was like the assistant comptroller secretary, and it was

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Speaker 1: it was I couldn't I mean, just based on my

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Speaker 1: own experience, I couldn't plug myself in because I was

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Speaker 1: like I just me and Scott. This just didn't exist

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Speaker 1: with us. I was a church secretary from like eighth

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Speaker 1: grade throughout high school. I wasn't like religious, but they

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Speaker 1: paid me ten dollars an hour. It was just a

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Speaker 1: really good gig and it was Yeah, it was hard,

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Speaker 1: you know, as it was hard to to see myself

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Speaker 1: in that role necessarily, but I did understand a lot

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Speaker 1: of her duties as as a secretary. I did have

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Speaker 1: to use a typewriter. I related to that too. Well,

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Speaker 1: you got the full typewriter treatment. Yeah. They it was

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Speaker 1: a pretty old church and they were just like, this

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Speaker 1: is how we do baptism certificates. Get used to it,

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Speaker 1: classy like. Um, So anyway, yeah, I, um, I don't

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Speaker 1: like this movie. I'll just come out and say it.

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Speaker 1: But but I yeah, I don't. I don't have any

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Speaker 1: of the attachment to it or any of like the

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Speaker 1: nostalgia or anything. So I was coming in it with

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Speaker 1: pretty fresh eyes. Um. But there's a lot to discuss. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there is, so there's so much to talk. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's I I guess like I was kind of assuming.

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this is like probably one of

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Speaker 1: those like cut and dry deals where it's like, well

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Speaker 1: it was like written by men about women, and so

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Speaker 1: you know, there's just gonna be uh, it's kind of

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Speaker 1: a nonstarter to an extent in most cases, but this

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Speaker 1: is not the case for this movie. It's there's so

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Speaker 1: many there's so many layers. It was really interesting researching

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Speaker 1: like the two female writers that like shaped this story

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Speaker 1: very differently, including the screenwriter who's like really fixated on

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Speaker 1: like women with mental illness and punishing them but being like,

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Speaker 1: but it was good for her, Like she's she's got

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Speaker 1: a whole it's such a hyper specific vibe. But when

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Speaker 1: I was looking at her list of works, I'm like, whoa,

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Speaker 1: that is really the theme. Yeah, it's it's this weird

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Speaker 1: thing where the character she is she's dealing with mental illness.

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Speaker 1: She's she's fresh out of an institution in a hospital,

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Speaker 1: but they also treat her like this newborn baby like

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Speaker 1: in a pool, who like knows nothing and it's so

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Speaker 1: naive and it's just like, oh my god, what is

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Speaker 1: a man? And then she's just like a perfect baby

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Speaker 1: for James Spader to just like imprint on. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time they're like, well, no, see, she's just

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Speaker 1: like so brilliant and complex because she has mental illness

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Speaker 1: and she could just like understand him, and it just

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Speaker 1: like wants to have it both ways. And it's like, way,

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Speaker 1: does she this like innocent child who knows nothing or

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Speaker 1: is she this like super genius like person who can

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Speaker 1: read his mind? Like what what is she supposed to be?

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Speaker 1: They pick and choose, and I feel like that actually,

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Speaker 1: when I was younger, that those types of characters were

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Speaker 1: so appealing to me because they were like parts of me,

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Speaker 1: Like when you're a twelve or thirteen, like you want

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Speaker 1: to be perceived kind of in both of those ways, like,

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Speaker 1: and so making an adult character that way is a

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Speaker 1: choice that is going to appeal to that Is she

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Speaker 1: an adult? Because look at her? Is she an adult?

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Speaker 1: Is like black Swan's like she's like stickers everywhere? Like

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Speaker 1: what age is she? If someone told me she was

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Speaker 1: like eighteen, I'd be like I could see it, Like

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Speaker 1: what what age is she? It's really confusing. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: sure if it was supposed to be like she is

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Speaker 1: maybe like yeah, like a really young adult and maybe

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Speaker 1: she just has her like kid room and she's fresh

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Speaker 1: out of high school, or if they were like going

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Speaker 1: for a Black Swan kind of thing where they're like, no,

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Speaker 1: she's definitely too old for this, but we're just going

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Speaker 1: to trap her here to send to say something. But

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Speaker 1: I wasn't sure what idea The closest thing to any

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Speaker 1: kind of indication is when she's talking to Peter, who

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Speaker 1: she knew in high school, who she like ends up

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Speaker 1: dating for a little while and then being engaged to.

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Speaker 1: But she's like, you're so different from how you were

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Speaker 1: in high school, and it seems like about how long

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Speaker 1: ago was that? But how long a you don't know.

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Speaker 1: Also she has she's in the bathtub at one point

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Speaker 1: and she like has this very like childlike snow globe

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Speaker 1: that apparently is like part of her like and then

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Speaker 1: she's like, no, I'm over this snow glob and then

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Speaker 1: she throws it away. I'm pretty sure there's like a

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Speaker 1: rubber ducky in there. Like just so much of that

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Speaker 1: made it uncomfortable. And it's like if they had just

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Speaker 1: firmly kind of like aged her up, like have her

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Speaker 1: just once referred to dropping out of college or something,

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Speaker 1: I feel like it would have the dynamic a little better.

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Speaker 1: But this whole first part of the movie, you're like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: so she she is a child who's jealous of her

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Speaker 1: sister's wedding, Like right there was like there, I feel

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Speaker 1: like they wanted you to look at her as a

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Speaker 1: baby to some But but if that's true, then it

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Speaker 1: kind of makes the whole thing a little more sinister.

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Speaker 1: There were a few of those moments that where it

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Speaker 1: was like, again, I was like, if I saw this

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Speaker 1: when I was thirteen, I would have been like, holy

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Speaker 1: sh it, Like just like symbolism moments when she takes

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Speaker 1: the snow globe and she's like the snow glow. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that that one got me. That was the moment when

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Speaker 1: I was I was like, yeah, that girl, when she

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Speaker 1: threw that snow globe, I was like, I'm in, I'm in,

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Speaker 1: this is me, this is my lifestyle now. It's I mean,

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Speaker 1: and and I will say watching it now, I did

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Speaker 1: hate it. I saw every problem, but I also did

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Speaker 1: see this way where I was like thirteen or you

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Speaker 1: know whatever, and I was like, oh my god, of

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Speaker 1: course I thought this was the sexiest thing in the world,

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Speaker 1: like him just telling her what to eat for dinner

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Speaker 1: and how of course I'd be like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: that's so hot that that someone would like take the

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Speaker 1: time and care to do that. You know. I I

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Speaker 1: was a latch key kid. I had to feed myself,

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Speaker 1: so that obviously super hot to me. And it's just

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Speaker 1: you know, the I feel like it just sexualizes things

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Speaker 1: in this kind of non sexy way where you're like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I guess I can work with this, even though I'm

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Speaker 1: still really not clear on who this woman is or

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Speaker 1: what exactly she wants or why she has decided this

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Speaker 1: lifestyle speaks to her. There's a lot to latch onto

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Speaker 1: with Lee, which is like part of I don't know

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Speaker 1: it was. I was so in and out because it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that not watching it now, the problems are very clear.

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Speaker 1: But it also it's like it's very like of its

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Speaker 1: time in a lot of ways, and I don't know

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Speaker 1: what about that yet. That masturbation scene very early two thousands.

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Speaker 1: This like this like just visually trippy, like as all

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Speaker 1: girls know, the way we masturbate as we like vision

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Speaker 1: of flower opening and we're sitting in the middle of it,

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Speaker 1: and then the boy that we have a crush on

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Speaker 1: appears and like washes our hair. Of course that's how

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Speaker 1: girls masterbace. It's very MTV two visuals, just like fireworks,

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Speaker 1: weird like green screen stuff happening. But then again I

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Speaker 1: was just like, okay, so she's like fourteen years old.

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Speaker 1: Like that was another thing where you're like, okay, she's

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Speaker 1: a baby. She's I think she's probably legally an adult,

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Speaker 1: but either way, the the age gap between her and

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Speaker 1: Mr Gray is pretty substantial. And that's the other. That's another.

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Speaker 1: This is a I hate James Spader. I hate him

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Speaker 1: so much that words cannot describe how much I think

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Speaker 1: he is the worst. Yeah. I don't know how he gets.

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Speaker 1: I just I hate him so much. But anyway, that's

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Speaker 1: neither here nor there. If it was, I've heard he

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Speaker 1: is a very like, not nice person. Yeah, oh, I thought,

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Speaker 1: do you just dislike him as a performer. I just

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Speaker 1: hate him because I hate him as an actor. I

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Speaker 1: think I just the roles he tends, at least of

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Speaker 1: the ones I've seen that he's in. I find him

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Speaker 1: loaths some like he's in that movie Crash, like the

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Speaker 1: horny car Crash movie. I found him really creepy in

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Speaker 1: that movie. I found him really creepy and sex lives

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Speaker 1: and videotape like everything he's in. And then this movie,

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Speaker 1: like everything he's in that I've seen, I just I

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Speaker 1: find him really I feel like this is his last

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Speaker 1: like hot movie. This is the last time we saw

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Speaker 1: like a hot James Spader, So maybe so maybe we

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Speaker 1: celebrate it for that sure, and only that that's so long.

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Speaker 1: He's like, I gotta go be an Avengers age of Ultron.

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Speaker 1: Now the black List. He had a show called like

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Speaker 1: the Blacklist, right, it ran for like ten years or

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Speaker 1: something like, He's been on so many things for ten

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Speaker 1: years that I didn't know existed. He well, he was

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Speaker 1: on the Office to right like after people Stop California.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's a good name. Yeah, he was on Boston Legal.

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Speaker 1: My mom watched the hat the My mom love Boston Legal.

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Speaker 1: He gets a lot of work, and I just don't

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Speaker 1: know why I don't. I don't get it. Not here

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Speaker 1: for James Spader. I think he's still kind of like

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Speaker 1: writing that like his first wave of success because he

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Speaker 1: was in so many like he was the sexy guy

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Speaker 1: in so many movies and now he's just kind of

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Speaker 1: set for life or that that's my guess, Secretary. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's an ode to sexiness. Yeah, Like I feel like

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Speaker 1: you're it enriches the experience if you knew, like because

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Speaker 1: if I just saw James Spader, I'm like, that's the guy. Like,

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Speaker 1: but because you know, like he has this icon like

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Speaker 1: sex icon status, which I don't get it just to

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Speaker 1: be Mr Gray, Like, at no point in the movie

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Speaker 1: is he an interesting or charismatic character. Like She's just like,

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Speaker 1: he's so complex, I can see why he's hurting. And

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Speaker 1: then James, it just looks like constipated and he's then

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Speaker 1: he's just like I gotta go just knock out some

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Speaker 1: push ups. And that's him the entire movie. It's just

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Speaker 1: like he's running on a treadmill. Yeah, I gotta take

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Speaker 1: care of my or kids. So like, where's your personality, bro? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, he's like vagina symbol in his office and

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Speaker 1: then you have to watch. You know, he's a good

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Speaker 1: guy because he can handle the vagina flowers and not

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Speaker 1: everybody can do that feminist icon. Yes, they like kind

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Speaker 1: of set this thing up in the beginning where like

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Speaker 1: it seems like he has a domp. There's like this

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Speaker 1: ex woman who comes in and like stomps all over

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Speaker 1: his stuff and I was like, oh good, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: love it if like he gets it handed to him.

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Speaker 1: But then in the end she's like, no, he is

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Speaker 1: a genius and he slipped through my fingers and I

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Speaker 1: just wish I had been as smart as you Lee

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Speaker 1: to capture him. And it's like wait, so wait, you

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00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,520
Speaker 1: were like so angry and came into his office because

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Speaker 1: this guy, who we've literally never heard say anything smart,

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Speaker 1: is just so brilliant that you, like you just had

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Speaker 1: to storm down there to yell at him to sign

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Speaker 1: divorce papers. What. Yeah, because it's a he's like he's

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Speaker 1: a genius at what at lawyer? He doesn't even seem

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Speaker 1: like a good lawyer by the way, ever, all the

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Speaker 1: case notes we heard, Yeah, there's like one time where

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00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,200
Speaker 1: he's just like, I told you to send the notes

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Speaker 1: on the case house and it just sounds like something

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Speaker 1: like like a writer was like, this is how lawyers talk.

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Speaker 1: We'll just have him say it through the door. Just

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Speaker 1: he can add live Spader will phill it in. Don't

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Speaker 1: even worry. He knows he was on Boston Legal. There.

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Speaker 1: The thing I will say about I mean, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of things to say about James Spader, but I

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Speaker 1: was stroke. Maybe it's like my TV, but I had

349
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,000
Speaker 1: to turn up the volume and turn down the volume

350
00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,080
Speaker 1: so much watching this movie because he speaks like in

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Speaker 1: a whisper of the whole kept like cranking my Roku

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Speaker 1: to eighty and then like slamming it back down. It

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Speaker 1: was so hard to hear him. That was a question

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Speaker 1: I actually was going to ask, does it count as

355
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Speaker 1: passing the backdel test if you can't hear the man

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Speaker 1: just if you if he's just whispering, technically doesn't count.

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Speaker 1: Is Maggie John Hall just talking towards herself? Like right,

358
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Speaker 1: because he'll be like piss all the way step into

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Speaker 1: my office. It's so quiet. There are pivotal scenes I

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Speaker 1: had to watch like three or four times because like,

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Speaker 1: I just I can't hear him, my rocos at a hundred,

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Speaker 1: I can't hear him. There's so just I think, all

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Speaker 1: the scenes where he's supposed to be. And it's interesting

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Speaker 1: because you know, I think it would be better if

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Speaker 1: we saw Lee actually consent to a lot of this

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Speaker 1: or like approach it with any sort of like passion

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Speaker 1: or excitement, like oh you know, but we really just

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Speaker 1: see her like headphones on, like listening to one tape

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Speaker 1: about being a sub, like being a dom. But most

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Speaker 1: of it is just James Spader's character being like you

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Speaker 1: do this, you sniffle too much, and I think you

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Speaker 1: need to stop touching your hair. And he's just projecting

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Speaker 1: all of these things onto her and it's just so uncomfortable,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, if you would have just given some

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00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,959
Speaker 1: of that agency to Lee's character, it would have been

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00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,480
Speaker 1: a little better, because his character just isn't interesting enough

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Speaker 1: to carry it. And the whole time he's just like,

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Speaker 1: I think you'd be happier if you just kept your

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00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,440
Speaker 1: shoes on under your desk, and then we're supposed to

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00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 1: be like, holy sh it. He totally gets this girl's

381
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,639
Speaker 1: self esteem and what she needs. Yeah, she broke the

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Speaker 1: snug glow. Well, before we get too far into it,

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00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 1: let's do the recap and then we'll and then we'll

384
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,639
Speaker 1: really just let loose. Well, we'll loosen up as she

385
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 1: is told she needs to do by Mr Gray. Listen up,

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Speaker 1: we'll we'll drink a hot chocolate because she's not old

387
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 1: enough to have an adult beverage. Okay, Um, Actually, let's

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00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 1: take a quick break and then we'll come right back

389
00:21:52,359 --> 00:22:01,560
Speaker 1: and do the recap. So the movie is we open

390
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 1: on Lee Holloway. That's Maggie Gyllenhall's character. We see her

391
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 1: doing you know, some office assistant type work. You know,

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00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 1: there's there's papers, they're stapling, she's getting coffee. But while

393
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 1: she's doing all this, she's wearing this kind of bondage

394
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,119
Speaker 1: device that suspends and outstretches her arms to either side.

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Speaker 1: This is an iconic intro scene. I feel like it'll

396
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 1: be remembered throughout her career. It is really cool as

397
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 1: a scene visually. Yeah, Like really put looks you into

398
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,399
Speaker 1: the world because it does it. I mean, it's not

399
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 1: until the midpoint of the movie, hello screenwriting degree that

400
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 1: they enter into any sort of like dom sub relationships,

401
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,439
Speaker 1: so it takes a while to get there. But this

402
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 1: gives you a nice little, um, you know, foreshadowing of

403
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 1: what's to come. Yeah, and she's also like smiling while

404
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 1: she's doing it, so you're in on it. Like there's

405
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 1: these two moments in the beginning when she kind of

406
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:56,439
Speaker 1: smirks and at the very end when she looks right

407
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 1: at the camera where she's like just so you know,

408
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 1: I'm into this, and I think that's what we're supposed

409
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 1: to take from it, but I wasn't exactly sure. Yeah,

410
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 1: I also had a discussion about that. I was like, oh, okay,

411
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 1: she's breaking the fourth wall to be like, hey, I

412
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 1: know I never said it. Don't ask me. I'm the

413
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 1: one who needs to approve these activities like don't look

414
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 1: at us like. She also stares at the camera and

415
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,919
Speaker 1: breaks the fourth wall at the very end Allah Judy

416
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,439
Speaker 1: Dench and cats, Like I really thought she was like

417
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: about to start singing about cats are not dogs at

418
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 1: the end of this movie. And uh yeah. She also

419
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 1: just looks kind of angry like at the end when

420
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 1: she stares at us, Like at the beginning, it's it's

421
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 1: like this kind of like funny knowing smirk, like, oh,

422
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 1: you're judging me, but I'm enjoying this, And at the

423
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 1: end it's like she's she's angry at us. I don't know.

424
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 1: I don't know what assumption she thinks I'm making, But

425
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,359
Speaker 1: at the end, I was mostly just like, so you

426
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 1: went through all of that so that you could just

427
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 1: be like a housewife? Is that was that the goal here?

428
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: Wasn't that the not what you wanted? I'm confused. But

429
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: you're different from your sister in her marriage because you

430
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 1: guys are into roaches in your bed. That is so

431
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 1: like early two thousand movie though, I feel like it

432
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 1: where it's like, oh, I'm not like the other girls,

433
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: but I want all the exact things of the other girls.

434
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: But I want my wedding goes to be black, and

435
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 1: we're gonna have sex. We're gonna have sex against tree.

436
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 1: Would a really hit for me when I was twelve,

437
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 1: I was like, what honestly, I was gonna say. When

438
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,199
Speaker 1: I was a kid, I watched that scene and I

439
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 1: was not at an age where I fully understood how

440
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,199
Speaker 1: sex worked. But I just remember being like, the tree

441
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,959
Speaker 1: is a big part of this, Like the trees and

442
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 1: sex go together. I do love having sex on camping

443
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: trips now all the time. And I didn't realize like, oh,

444
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: the tree is hurting hurting her back, like that's what

445
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: it is. But I was just like, no, I think

446
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,880
Speaker 1: you need a tree involved in this sex act. That's

447
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 1: how it goes. Yeah, she just wanted to get her

448
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: back fucked up against some tree bark because because she

449
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: fell in love with the world's most complicated man. Oh

450
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: he's so interesting. Ah, he's not like the others. Okay,

451
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: So we see this opening scene and then we cut

452
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 1: to six months earlier. Lee has just been released after

453
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: having been institutionalized. Um, she's back home. Things are difficult.

454
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: Her parents are fighting, her dad is abusive towards her mother.

455
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: He's also an alcoholic, and we see her inflicting self harm,

456
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 1: and then we learned that she has a history of

457
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 1: doing this. Then one day she sees an ad in

458
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: the paper advertising for a secretary job at a lawyer's office.

459
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: So we just say how how she finds it? Though,

460
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 1: because I feel like it's not like she's just going

461
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 1: through the paper looking for a job. She's like throwing

462
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: out her kit of like cell of like tools she

463
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: used to to harm herself. She goes to the trash can,

464
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: throws it out, turns around, and then she's like, I

465
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: can't do it, and she goes to get it back out,

466
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 1: and then she sees this add in the trash like

467
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 1: this like it's supposed to be some sort of like

468
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: divine intervention, like she's meant to be this guy's like

469
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: sub slave. Because also she does eventually throw them out,

470
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: but only after, like James Spader says, it's okay, And

471
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 1: it's like, why couldn't that moment have come earlier for her?

472
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: Why couldn't she It's like, couldn't she have just thrown

473
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: it out then and then been like, oh, an ad

474
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: to be a secretary? Okay? Yeah, I felt that that

475
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: whole I mean once it gets to like that James

476
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: Spader scene, which I like, No, it's weird because it's like,

477
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: I know that that scene is kind of like iconic

478
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: in its own right, but it's like he's just like,

479
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: don't do that ever again, and she's like, oh, that's

480
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: why I didn't not do it. I just need to stop.

481
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 1: I was doing it again, and then I was like

482
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: I never thought don't don't do do it the hospital

483
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: and my family were like, maybe do it. Like it's

484
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 1: like it's just so my mom was like locking the

485
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 1: knives away, like but you know, if you want to,

486
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: just come get me and I'll and I'll get it

487
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 1: out for you. Like I feel so I felt. I

488
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 1: felt for Lee's mom. I felt like the movie really

489
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 1: was not very nice to her at every turn, and

490
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: like if I mean, the first time you see her,

491
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 1: she is being abused by her husband, and then really

492
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 1: every other time she crops up like she's made to

493
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 1: look kind of dumb and overbearing and like you never

494
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 1: really get any closure with her or the family. And

495
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of interesting because the first half of

496
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 1: the film to me, felt so kind of surreal and comedic,

497
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: like all the stuff with the sister's wedding. It feels

498
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 1: like a joke, all the stuff, honestly, with like her

499
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: dad being an alcoholic, it feels like this caricature of

500
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: an alcoholic where he's like stumbling around downtown, wandering into

501
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: phone booths, and it's just like, Okay, is is this

502
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: supposed to be like kind of a funny any like

503
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 1: over the top? Yeah, like like play like we're making

504
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 1: fun of suburbia and like the drunk alcoholic parents who

505
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,239
Speaker 1: like you know, and is is are we supposed to be? Like, Oh,

506
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 1: they're in on it. This is kind of like a

507
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: pro prozac nation moment. But then it makes you feel

508
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: bad for the mom because you're like, oh, no, she's

509
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 1: dealing with this abuse and wait, can we take these

510
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 1: characters seriously? But then they're like no, no, this is

511
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 1: James Spader is way more interesting. Like what we're we're

512
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: all here for Spader, We're not here for these for

513
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: this family. Very confused by this movie tonally, like I

514
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: don't really it's a comedy dress It's like it's marketed

515
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: as a comedy and I don't I'm not seeing that

516
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: much humor in it, or maybe it's just so subtle

517
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: that I'm not picking up on it. I don't And

518
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:51,959
Speaker 1: then at the and then at the end, it's like

519
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: few like you're just like what is happening? Once once

520
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: the like the wedding dresses on, You're like, this movie

521
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: has switched right. It's like an S and M Julia

522
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: Roberts moment. You have, Like the press, apparently with nothing

523
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: else to report, is just like outside of his office

524
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: for days, like reporting on this woman who you would think,

525
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: like like a doctor would just come in. I don't

526
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: know why. The press was like, no, we need to

527
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: publish her and saying love letter right now like running liked.

528
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: And also that's the thing. Did he tip them off?

529
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: Because he did tip by he tips off the boyfriend.

530
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: Was he like, let's let's get Peter in here, Let's

531
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: get the family, let's get impressed in here, Like I

532
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: I honestly think he's just standing at his creepy masturbation window,

533
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: and I think he was just like, I'm just gonna

534
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 1: see where this goes. I'm just gonna sleep on the

535
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: floor till this all blows down, Like I guess is

536
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: how he like punishes himself, like oh no, the most

537
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: privileged punishment of all time. He's like, I'm gonna sleep

538
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: on the floor of my lawyer man while he is

539
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: like sitting in her piss for like five days in

540
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: a row because he doesn't want to use his words

541
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: and say, yeah, I like you too. Remember that's what

542
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 1: starts all of it, is that he cannot stay back

543
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: I like you too. Yeah. She's like a herd out

544
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: and then he's just like, stay there until I come back,

545
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: until I And then he just stands outside the window

546
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: and he's like, I like you do, missus all the way.

547
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: I have done what Maggie Gillenhall does in that like

548
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: extended scene emotionally a lot. I've sat in my piss

549
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: emotionally waiting for someone to say they like me back

550
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: for many times. Physically it would be a first. I

551
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: also think she would have pooped herself to if she's

552
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: there for like three days. It was also her wedding

553
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: day when he picks her up. We're getting so hard

554
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: of ourselves. But when he picks her up and like

555
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: sweeps her off her feet and carries her out of

556
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: the office like that wedding dress should be like brown

557
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: and yellow from all her why is he touching it.

558
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: It's like kind of a break in his character, this

559
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: guy who doesn't want to touch worms. He's all all

560
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: of a sudden, he's all over this like Pisch dressed right.

561
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: Maybe that's part of his king. I watched that with

562
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: my boyfriend and we were just like openly laughing. Once

563
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: it hit the end row, it was like, oh, that's

564
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: so and then we're just like, she's rewarded with a bath,

565
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: and then she's locked in a room and she's like

566
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: and that's when I felt so beautiful, And you're like, also,

567
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: is that that like weird grass table, which to me

568
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: seems like a place where you kill animals. I don't

569
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: know why someone would just have this like fake grassbed,

570
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 1: uh thing? Why does he have that? And then she's

571
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: like laying there and she's like, she's like, no, this

572
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: is the first time I ever felt whole. And I

573
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: was like, oh, I didn't know you didn't feel whole.

574
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: This is the first time. I'm like hearing this was

575
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: an issue for you throughout the film. Gosh, it's good.

576
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: Would have been nice to know how you were feeling

577
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:13,719
Speaker 1: about anything. Unfortunately, we never learned that much about her character. Oops. No, Maggie. Okay,

578
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: So she sees the ad in the paper for the

579
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: lawyer's secretary job. She goes in to apply to the office,

580
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: and then we meet the lawyer, Mr. E Edward Gray,

581
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: that's James Spader's character. He interviews her on the spot.

582
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 1: It's a very inappropriate and weird interview. We can talk

583
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: about that. He immediately it is just like, let me

584
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: just make sure this girl does not know boundaries. He's

585
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: just straight off the bat, like, let me just make

586
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: sure I can manipulate this girl who does not know

587
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: what is appropriate or is inappropriate, right, yes, And he

588
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: gives her the job, so she starts working for him.

589
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: He's mostly a bastard and he makes her do inappropriate

590
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: things like go through the dumpster, he throws away donuts

591
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: that she gave him as a gift. He leers at

592
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: her body inappropriately. I was having some real like fraud

593
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: complex moments, uh during me like her early times in

594
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: that job, where it's like it is so clear to

595
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: the viewer that he is not hiring her because she's

596
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: going to be good at the job. He's kind of

597
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: hiring her because she's going to be bad at the job.

598
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: And then when she's bad at the job, which he

599
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: knew she would be. He like punishes her relentlessly, which

600
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: feels like every early job I ever had exactly. It

601
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: reminded me of just every abusive boss who's just like

602
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: this has too much sugar, not enough sugar, Like, oh

603
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: my gosh, I don't like the way that you type this.

604
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: Oh actually I wanted like this much space on the left,

605
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: and you're just like, oh, you're just a jerk. But

606
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: she's supposed to be She's supposed to be this naive child,

607
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,719
Speaker 1: and that's why she falls for it. Like any I

608
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: think any adult woman would have been like, no, you

609
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: can't ask me if I'm pregnant, would have just stormed

610
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: out of there. But she's like, oh my gosh, yeah,

611
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: I guess, like this is cool and just you know,

612
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: and I think he knows that. And that's why the

613
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: entire dynamic just feels like it's set up so gross,

614
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: because she doesn't even come into the job with any

615
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: sort of like equal footing totally, which is the main

616
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: reason I have a real problem with this movie is

617
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,879
Speaker 1: that we are meant to be rooting for this relationship

618
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 1: in which a man is exploiting this imbalance of power

619
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 1: that he has in this relationship with this woman. So

620
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: what follows that is one day at work, her dad

621
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: calls her and he had left Lee and her mother.

622
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: He seems to be hitting rock bottom and this upsets

623
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: Lee and she self harms again at the office and

624
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: Mr Gracie's her doing this because she does it in

625
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: the middle of the waiting room, by the way, just

626
00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: like at her desk, in the middle of the waiting room,

627
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: where anyone could have walked into the office, right. Just yeah,

628
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: there was a few. I mean, I don't know, as

629
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: like a former self harmer myself. It's like we go

630
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: to the bathroom. Yeah, it's like it was, And that

631
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: was one of the tonal moments where it was weird

632
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: because we also see like the weird moments where he's

633
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 1: like popping around the corner and just like peeking at her.

634
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: It's like weird. But then there's this moment where she's like,

635
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: I have to self harm, and obviously she would go

636
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: to the bathroom like we saw her like do this

637
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 1: privately before, but we know he's going to be peeking,

638
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: and they set it up just to make it so obvious,

639
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: and it's like like it just felt kind of comical.

640
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 1: The way that he just immediately is just like and

641
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: then she sees and it's like, oh my gosh, I

642
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: didn't even consider that he could have been standing there.

643
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: And she seems so shocked, and it's like, yeah, girlier

644
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: in the middle of your office, like they make her

645
00:35:55,040 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 1: so baby. Yeah. Yeah, it's just frustrating. So after he

646
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,879
Speaker 1: sees this um, he starts to really lay into her um,

647
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: yelling at her for typing errors, telling her that the

648
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,760
Speaker 1: way she dresses is disgusting, like she's sniffling, she's fiddling

649
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 1: with her hair, she does this weird thing with her tongue,

650
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: and she seems to make an active attempt to fix

651
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: these things. And then he asks her about a recent

652
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: date that we saw her on with this guy Peter,

653
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:25,919
Speaker 1: who she knew from high school, which is a date

654
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: that takes place out a laundromat where they're drinking wine.

655
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is a thing or not,

656
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 1: but that's what I know. I thought that was cool.

657
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: And I mean, I don't know if this is just

658
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 1: a Midwest thing, but in the Midwest, all my white

659
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: friends loved going on dates to the laundromat, So I

660
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: just I was like, yeah, I was like, I guess

661
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: this is a thing I never heard. There are lots

662
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: of white people where they also have like bars too,

663
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: but I was like, I would be into this, And

664
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: also like, it's just creepy that he also uses that

665
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: laundromat because he's supposed to be this like big time lawyer,

666
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,240
Speaker 1: and I'm like, you don't have like a really fancy

667
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 1: dry cleaner. Are also using like the dating laundromat, and

668
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: at least in a home he'd haven't. Wouldn't he have

669
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,240
Speaker 1: like an in home or like pick up or something.

670
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: But no, he's also just like go into this town

671
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: laundromat and dinner night place, and then he sees them

672
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: and gets like super creepy. He's like peeking behind the

673
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: washers again. So if you don't find James Spader attractive

674
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: in this movie, which I don't, really, those shots are

675
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:38,760
Speaker 1: so alarming. They're just like, yeah, I don't know where

676
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,760
Speaker 1: what are you doing? I don't know how the Steve

677
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: the Bouschemy test applies here exactly, but it's like, to me,

678
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 1: I feel like he's sort of for some he's for

679
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: me for sure, on account of how much I hate

680
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: James Spader. But um, so anyway, he's like, hey, that

681
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 1: date that you wrong? What was that all about? Did

682
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 1: you have sex? You know you can? You can tell

683
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,959
Speaker 1: me about your problems. Also, don't ever hurt yourself again.

684
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: Don't cut yourself again. And she says, okay, yes, I won't. Um,

685
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: and then she makes another typing error and he calls

686
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: her into his office instructs her to bend over on

687
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: his desk and read the letter. And while she does this,

688
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 1: he slaps her, but repeatedly, And we'll talk all about this,

689
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: but this is the This kind of initiates the beginning

690
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: of a dom sub relationship between them. Um. He starts

691
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: to tell her what to eat. He has her crawl

692
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: around the office on all fours. We see him strapping

693
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: a saddle to her. Yeah, can we do that? Where

694
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: where did that come from? Is that why he has

695
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: the fake grass bed? I needed more answers there. Oh sure,

696
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, this is kind of awesome, but also, like,

697
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 1: where does he keep that? It's a really small office.

698
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: It's a huge it's for like not a pony. He also,

699
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 1: I believe there was also Hey, like this was a

700
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: very it was a platform with Hey. Yeah, there was

701
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: hey and carrots. This was like not just your you know,

702
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 1: I have this saddle hanging around. This was like a

703
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: well thought out like a photo shoot almost. He's very

704
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 1: inconsistent with like sometimes he's like, oh, I just I

705
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: just want it right now, but then other times it's like, no,

706
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 1: this would have taken a lot of planning. You would

707
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 1: have had to decide this a couple of days ago

708
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: in advance. Yeah, And so for him to be so

709
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: wishy washy had points when it's like, no, the the

710
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: amount of probably just preparation involved in this relationship so far,

711
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: Like I'm sorry for you to now say that you

712
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: never had feelings for this girl, Like, I'm sorry, but

713
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,720
Speaker 1: you're in a relationship. It made a bet of hay

714
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: for if you're making a bet of hey, you're in

715
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: a relationship, Okay, go ahead and put a term on it,

716
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: because that's your girlfriend. That's a commitment. That's a commitment.

717
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 1: After this, though, something kind of changes and he loses

718
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: He seems to lose interest and he stops engaging in

719
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: their B DSM relationship, much to her disappointment. Meanwhile, she

720
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: has been dating Peter. She wants him to spank her.

721
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: He doesn't get it. They have boring sex. She's very

722
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 1: dissatisfied for Peter. He does that thing with this hand.

723
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: Peter he has this claw hand that he does and

724
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 1: he has sex to there where he doesn't touch her.

725
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: He just like the like hovering or he's just like

726
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: and then he just she like she like turns around

727
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: like and does the like spank me move and he's

728
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,879
Speaker 1: just like get a cond Like he's just like he's

729
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: just a character you feel so bad for. And she

730
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: does like briefly date some like other people in a montage,

731
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: which I feel like the movie would have been better

732
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 1: if we'd actually seen her go on these like bad

733
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: s and M dates and like scene that X varience,

734
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: but like very quickly they're just like, yeah, she tried

735
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: like throwing tomatoes at somebody and she did this in

736
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 1: any way that didn't work, So she must be in

737
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,399
Speaker 1: love with James Bader, so let's move on, right. It's

738
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: like they look like the lamest like s and M

739
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: days you could go on, like, I think she just

740
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,760
Speaker 1: probably picked the wrong people off of Craigslist. In two thousands,

741
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: the newspaper, I guess if you're putting your snm ads

742
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: in the newspaper. You're gonna get some some misses, right.

743
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: So then at work, Lee puts a worm in a

744
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: letter to Mr Gray to try to reinitiate their b

745
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: DSM relationship, and it works sort of in that there's

746
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: like another encounter. But Mr Gray feels guilty about his

747
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 1: behavior and he thinks there's something wrong with him and

748
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: he wants to severtise with Lee, so he fires her

749
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 1: and she is devastated. That's when she tries these other

750
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,879
Speaker 1: dom sub relationships with other men. None of them work out.

751
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 1: She gets engaged to Peter because she doesn't know what

752
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: else to do, but on their wedding day, she runs

753
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: away Allah Julia Roberts in Runaway Bride to Mr Gray

754
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 1: and she's like, I love you, I want to be

755
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: with you, I want to make love and he's like,

756
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: put your hands on the desk, plant both feet on

757
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 1: the floor, and don't move until I come back. She

758
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 1: takes that note very serious. She does not move. She

759
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:35,760
Speaker 1: doesn't move. He does different things to test her. I guess,

760
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 1: like we said what He tells Peter where she is?

761
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 1: She urinates in the wedding dress. He sends like everyone

762
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,399
Speaker 1: he sends the entire castle a movie. Basically everyone we've

763
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: seen up until this point like comes in to have

764
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 1: like a little monologue with her where they all talk

765
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: about him. It's never like, hey, Lee, are you like hungry?

766
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 1: No one brings her a snack. Her mom brings her

767
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 1: four pas, but that brings her some peas, but most

768
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: of them are just like, he is brilliant, isn't he?

769
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, the worm trick was so smart? And

770
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 1: it's just like, is anyone like a therapist kind of

771
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:17,439
Speaker 1: talks to her? And then the only person who really

772
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: gets through to her is her dad, who's like reading

773
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: the Bible right. I was honestly kind of confused. I

774
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: was like, is she hallucinating these because she's so hungry

775
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: and tired? But then it's like, no, these people are

776
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 1: really here. I think where I got confused, And like,

777
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: how did Mr Gray get his ex wife to participate

778
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: in this like she and compliment to him? And and

779
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 1: did he call his ex wife before he called the

780
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 1: press or did he call the press first? Which I

781
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 1: guess that least I guess their divorce has since has

782
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: been settled off screen, So you seem very upset in

783
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: the beginning, and now she's gone full circle to yes,

784
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,280
Speaker 1: he's a genius, and somehow he slipped through my hands.

785
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 1: She's like, yeah, I was just showing too much agency, personality, etcetera.

786
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 1: I was just you know, an actual person a few

787
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,879
Speaker 1: times and that didn't click for him. But you were

788
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 1: just a perfect, just blank tablet of a human for

789
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: him to imprint on. So those so those people were

790
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 1: actually there. She gets like five copies of codependency no more,

791
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 1: she reads none of them. And then and then he

792
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,439
Speaker 1: finally comes back after I believe three days of her

793
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 1: not sleeping, not eating or drinking water, presumably pissing, and

794
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: shooting herself, and then he comes back. He sweeps her

795
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 1: off her feet, he takes her home, he gives her

796
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 1: a bath, um and then they become a couple. They

797
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,760
Speaker 1: get married, They on a tree, goes off to work,

798
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: they fuck on a tree. He you know, he keeps

799
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 1: being a lawyer. She we're not sure what she does

800
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: with I guess she's not a secretary anymore because she's

801
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: not going to the office, right, did she just stay

802
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: at home? We don't really know. Actually, by the end

803
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 1: of the movie, the one thing we know about her

804
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 1: that she is a secretary. We don't even know that anymore, right,

805
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: We actually and the movie knowing less about her than

806
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: we started with. True, we don't even know her job.

807
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:29,720
Speaker 1: She like like this is yeah, this is pretty disempowering

808
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: in a way, equally angless as when she began. But well, yeah,

809
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,720
Speaker 1: like this was supposed to be a very happy ending. Yeah,

810
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 1: well that's the movie. Let's take a quick break and

811
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: then we'll come right back for more discussion. And we're back.

812
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 1: Um okay, so I really quickly, I think I wanted

813
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: to start with talking about the material for the book. Um, Caitlin,

814
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: you read the story. Yes, I did, bravely. I did

815
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:12,359
Speaker 1: as well. I don't make a habit of reading. But

816
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 1: it was only liked read this. So I once I

817
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: saw that it was very short, I was like, alright,

818
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 1: I'll do I can manage this. So this movie is

819
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 1: adapted from a short story that is, I mean, the

820
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: framework is similar, but it plays out really really differently.

821
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: It's by Mary gate Skill, who I think I had

822
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: read stuff of hers before, maybe in high school or college.

823
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: She's like a famous mostly short story writer. Um. And

824
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: this was from a collection she wrote back in nineteen

825
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: idiot called bad behavior, and it is different. It is

826
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 1: so the I think most notable ways in which the

827
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,760
Speaker 1: source material is different from the film is that there's

828
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: no mention of any of her self harm behavior in

829
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 1: the story. There's only a brief mention that her mom

830
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: had taken her to a psychiatrist one time. But aside

831
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: from that, the self harm aspect of her character seems

832
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 1: to be specific to the movie. In the scene in

833
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,839
Speaker 1: which which the movie would have you believe is the

834
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 1: beginning of their dom sub relationship, we will talk about

835
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:37,399
Speaker 1: how how it's just an assault with no prior understanding

836
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: on her part of what was going to happen, no

837
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 1: consent given on her part. Right during that scene in

838
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: the short story, the character whose name is not Lee,

839
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:51,879
Speaker 1: I think her name is Debbie in the short story. Um.

840
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 1: But anyway, that character, that character is crying the whole time,

841
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: and she just seems much more traumatized by the events

842
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: of that in the short story. Uh. The story ends

843
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 1: with the lead character deciding not to show up to

844
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: work anymore, and she's the one who effectively ends their relationship.

845
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 1: They don't get together. At the end. He runs for

846
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 1: mayor of their town and she judges. She's like, this

847
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 1: town is so shitty. What kind of idiot would run

848
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 1: for mayor of such a shitty town? And then that's

849
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 1: pretty much how the story ends. That's very different. It's

850
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,240
Speaker 1: so different. I thought it was like a good story.

851
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 1: I I felt like it was. I mean it was

852
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,399
Speaker 1: it's very like like late eighties. But it felt like, oh,

853
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,359
Speaker 1: this was like kind of this like slice of this

854
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: young woman's life. She had like a traumatic work experience,

855
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 1: and there wasn't really any like infrastructure for her to

856
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,720
Speaker 1: like process or report it, so she just took herself

857
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 1: out of the situation and then looked back on it

858
00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: thinking that he sucked and was a loser, which which

859
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:05,919
Speaker 1: is like a relatable experience. I didn't dislike the story. Yeah,

860
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 1: I don't know Mary gets call. I mean, I guess

861
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 1: that there's not too much worth discussing about her here

862
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 1: because the movie has kind of very little to do

863
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: with what she read. I feel like the story sounds

864
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 1: so much better, like the whole aspect of the self

865
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:25,839
Speaker 1: harm and the mental illness. Just the way it's used here,

866
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 1: it's only used to take away her agency, it's only

867
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 1: used to make her seem so childish, uh, And it's

868
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: it's kind of used to make it like, oh, this

869
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: is the reason that she is this way. They use

870
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 1: it as an excuse, like, oh, the only reason that

871
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 1: she would be into like subdom stuff is because she's

872
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 1: the kind of person whose self harms, which obviously is

873
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: a really like dangerous stereotype for the b D s

874
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: M community. But also it's just like, like, no, she

875
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 1: could just like I love this type of stuff and

876
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 1: want to be in this relationship, but instead you want

877
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 1: to tie it to her mental illness, and that makes

878
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 1: me go a looks that he's taking advantage of that, Like, like,

879
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,720
Speaker 1: you guys should have just listened to Mary here, because

880
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:10,760
Speaker 1: obviously she accounted for that way back in come on, yeah,

881
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 1: in the way her mental health issues are depicted. And

882
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: this isn't to say the people who have or have

883
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 1: had self harm tendencies can't get into b D s

884
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 1: M and use that as a coping strategy in a

885
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:30,399
Speaker 1: healthy way. I read some anecdotes from people who took

886
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 1: that approach and it seemed to work out great for them,

887
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: So I don't have a problem with the movie showing

888
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: that as a general thing. What I do find troublesome

889
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:47,280
Speaker 1: is this character Mr Gray, who is an abuser, seems

890
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 1: to somehow curely of her mental illness by simply telling

891
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 1: her not to have a mental illness anymore. I was

892
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 1: I was bummed from Mary, and I like, on reading this,

893
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: I was like kind of even more confused with some

894
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 1: of the choices that the movie made because I assumed

895
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, well, okay, I knew going in

896
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: at the ending was very different in the movie than

897
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 1: it is in the book. But I'm like, maybe they

898
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: just chose, you know, a bad in for a happy ending.

899
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 1: Like if she I would almost be a little more like, oh,

900
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 1: this was done with good intent. Uh if it was like, oh,

901
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,839
Speaker 1: it just didn't adapt well and then the studio made

902
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: us change the ending and so it comes off not

903
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 1: very well. But that's not even the case. And I

904
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: have a quote from Mary gate Skill who is like,

905
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 1: she's really interesting. She's got you can look up her

906
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:45,720
Speaker 1: takes on me too. They're all over the place because

907
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 1: she's she's all about the gray area of sexual interactions,

908
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 1: which doesn't translate well to that conversation. Uh, even if

909
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 1: it turns out, you know, often well in her work,

910
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 1: But Anyways, she was asked about this movie because it's

911
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 1: so different, and she was like, pretty I don't know,

912
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 1: very chill about it. She said that the film was

913
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 1: quote the Pretty Woman version, very heavy on the charm

914
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 1: and a little too nice. But the bottom line is

915
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 1: that if if a film adaptation is made, you get

916
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 1: some money and exposure and people can make up their

917
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 1: minds from there. So she very much like it's kind

918
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: of like I gotta check check, and then distanced herself

919
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 1: from yeah, I like that. She says the movie is

920
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,240
Speaker 1: charming because like, where where is that charm? I didn't

921
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 1: Her takes are all over the places like this is

922
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: Pretty Woman? Like where like where where is Lee coming

923
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 1: back to be like I own this? There's never that

924
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: moment she comes back and she's like yeah, she comes

925
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 1: and she's like I love you and I'm going to

926
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,919
Speaker 1: sit here and do this. But it's only after she

927
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 1: bears her soul to the press and they like put

928
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 1: out her statement about how she's the only person who

929
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: understands him and he's so complicated that he like reads

930
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 1: it and it's like you know what, Okay, fine, I'll

931
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:07,279
Speaker 1: go back in there and get her Like I was

932
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: gonna just like see how long she do this and

933
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:12,319
Speaker 1: have fun with it. But now I guess I'll take

934
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: it seriously Like that that was It's not like Mr

935
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 1: Gray has like such a trust of the local press.

936
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:29,399
Speaker 1: He trusted more than women. He's allegedly in love with Um.

937
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: So Mary Gaskill writes the story, it eventually gets um

938
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: picked up by this direct or, Stephen Shaneberg, I was

939
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 1: not aware of. I had never heard of him, and

940
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 1: I looked up his other stuff and I had not

941
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 1: heard of any of it. I don't know who this

942
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 1: man is. For some reason, I thought it was Steven

943
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,279
Speaker 1: Soderberg who directed this, and then I was and then

944
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 1: I was like, oh wait, no, I read that wrong.

945
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 1: That doesn't say Soderberg. That said something else. It's like

946
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 1: it's like one of the You're like Steve Stephenburg, like

947
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: Steve Soderberg, like he had a he had another. I

948
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 1: think he only made one other movie after Secretary, and

949
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 1: it also had like pretty mixed reviews. But like some

950
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 1: big names attached to it, it seems like he just

951
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 1: he just kind of makes these like boring middle of

952
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: the lane like white like artsy movies with with couples

953
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 1: that fight. Yeah, it's like I couldn't quite figure out

954
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 1: what his deal was other than I believe he Oh no,

955
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 1: he wasn't nepotism. I really can't make heads or tails

956
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 1: of his life in that case. But the the I

957
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 1: think the screenwriter of this movie is pretty interesting and

958
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 1: she has like a lot of pretty well known work.

959
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:46,880
Speaker 1: She was like originally a playwright named Aaron Crisita Wilson.

960
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,399
Speaker 1: Other stuff she's written include the I think The Girl

961
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,879
Speaker 1: on the Train is probably her most famous other adaptation.

962
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 1: And then there was a movie named Chloe that I

963
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 1: definitely saw. It is not It's not good. It's Julianne

964
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 1: Morriley of Neeson and Amanda sy Free. I totally forgot

965
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 1: about that movie. I like cut it out of my memory.

966
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:13,839
Speaker 1: It's a mess. She is interesting to me because I

967
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:17,399
Speaker 1: feel like I haven't rewatched Chloe in a long time.

968
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 1: But I feel like this particular writer is drawn to

969
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:24,439
Speaker 1: a very particular type of female protagonist that we've talked

970
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 1: about before. But it's or we we're talking about earlier,

971
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 1: but it's like she is drawn to like upwardly mobile

972
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:37,320
Speaker 1: white lady with mental illness, but then kind of uses

973
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 1: that framing device to just punish the character relentlessly throughout

974
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:46,320
Speaker 1: the work. And I'm sure I'm oversimplifying the girl on

975
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:48,759
Speaker 1: the train a little bit um. But I did not

976
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 1: like that movie. Uh wasn't a fan, and it's it's

977
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 1: like brutal. She's interesting, and so I was looking up.

978
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:01,840
Speaker 1: This was her first screenplay and she's written I guess

979
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 1: like twenty plays. I'm not. I don't know. It's like

980
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 1: good for her, all power to her, but she didn't

981
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 1: interview when she first wrote this movie where they were

982
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 1: basically asking her like, oh, have you ever been as

983
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 1: secretary or have you ever been um in a B

984
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 1: D S M situation? And her answer is so weird,

985
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 1: it's okay, So here it is. She says, I have

986
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,759
Speaker 1: had many instances of sexual harassment and jobs I've had

987
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 1: in the past, but I was young and didn't know

988
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 1: what I was being sexually harassed in these instances. I

989
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: had absolutely no sexual attraction to the harassers, so it

990
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:36,879
Speaker 1: was confusing to me. I thought I had been hired

991
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 1: because these men liked my work, not my ass. You see,

992
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:42,280
Speaker 1: I went to girls schools for much of my education,

993
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:44,880
Speaker 1: so I came from a very sheltered and also wonderful

994
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 1: environment where I was seen for my personality, my intelligence,

995
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 1: and my talent. When it came to work, I was

996
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,799
Speaker 1: not accustomed to being seen as a sexual object. It

997
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 1: took me years after college to finally understand that I

998
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:58,919
Speaker 1: was being harassed. I never thought of myself as particularly hot,

999
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 1: so I was always ACKed when I realized that was

1000
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 1: going on. I've worked with men I was attracted to,

1001
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: and this can be very invigorating and exciting, especially if

1002
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 1: it is never consummated. But that is a consensual and

1003
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 1: more adult situation. This film situation borders on sexual harassment definitely,

1004
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 1: but I think it ceases to be harassment when the

1005
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 1: submissive starts to like it and actually ask for it.

1006
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 1: So it's like, I'm like really with her at the

1007
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 1: beginning of this, and that took some turns, and then

1008
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: at the end you're just like, wait, why didn't know?

1009
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 1: Why didn't attractive people can sexually harass in the workplace?

1010
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 1: That's oh, there were so many I was like, I'm

1011
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:42,040
Speaker 1: with you, I'm with you, and then I was just

1012
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: like no. And also, there is like a moment in

1013
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 1: the movie where they like kind of joke about sexual harassment.

1014
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: Her sisters when they're by the pool, Like one of

1015
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 1: them is like, oh, I'm you should like sue your

1016
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 1: boss for sexual harassment, and then like Lee is just like,

1017
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 1: at least my boss is sexy. He's the best in

1018
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 1: the world. Okay, So that I feel like that is there.

1019
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 1: I feel like that's the movie attempting to show the

1020
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 1: distinction between like actual abuse and b D s M,

1021
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:15,479
Speaker 1: the movie saying these are two different things. I feel

1022
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 1: like this is also why we see Lee's father being

1023
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 1: physically abusive to the mother. That's saying like, that's what abuses.

1024
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:27,560
Speaker 1: What we're seeing in this relationship between Lee and Mr Gray,

1025
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 1: this is different. This is a consensual b D s

1026
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 1: M relationship. However, this is my whole thing with this movie,

1027
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 1: and we already hinted at it, But like, the relationship

1028
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 1: between the two characters starts as him being verbally and

1029
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 1: emotionally abusive towards her in the workplace. This is followed

1030
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 1: by the scene in which he has her bend over

1031
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 1: the desk and repeatedly spank her. Um, she did not

1032
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 1: know this was going to happen. She did not give

1033
00:58:55,480 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 1: consent to this. In addition, there's also a major you're

1034
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 1: in balance of power in that he is her boss

1035
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 1: and she is his subordinate. There's also seemingly no one

1036
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 1: else there. Yeah. Also, let's I don't think we mentioned

1037
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 1: that the very first time she goes in for the interview,

1038
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 1: there's a woman, his old secretary who's leaving and crying.

1039
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:19,520
Speaker 1: They also like cut to that clip at the end,

1040
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 1: which is a little like, yeah, yeah, we get it,

1041
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 1: we get she got fired and she's also crying. We

1042
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 1: know the reference, we get it. But it's like they

1043
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 1: clearly established like he is an abusive boss, Like even

1044
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 1: outside of b D s M, he's not a good boss. Right,

1045
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 1: Like the thing with this movie, and Jamie you had

1046
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 1: mentioned this at the top of the episode, but like

1047
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 1: this movie is widely considered within the b D s

1048
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 1: M community to be more like accurate and responsible in

1049
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 1: its depiction of b D s M relationships, more so

1050
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 1: than like fifty Shades of Gray at least five years ago. Right,

1051
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 1: Because the thing with fifty Shades of Gray is that

1052
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 1: it and we talked about this on that episode, but

1053
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 1: it conflates very concerning behavior like a man stalking a

1054
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 1: woman as like being part of the kink aspect of

1055
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 1: their relationship, and it's just like, no, this is romantic.

1056
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 1: What he's doing, him stalking her is actually very romantic.

1057
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 1: And it's also just like poorly written, so no one

1058
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:23,040
Speaker 1: likes it. But with Secretary, I'm just like what, but

1059
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:25,959
Speaker 1: there's an assault. He assaults her because, like the whole

1060
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 1: thing with B. D. S M, if done right and

1061
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 1: portrayed accurately, it's all about consent, it's all about negotiation,

1062
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 1: it's all about knowing each other's boundaries and limits. It's

1063
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:41,280
Speaker 1: all about safety, and none of that gets established in

1064
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 1: this movie. They don't talk about the relationship he there's

1065
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 1: no safe words established. In fact, he never uses the terms.

1066
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 1: We don't actually even know if he is well versed

1067
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 1: in like B D. S M. Like the woman in

1068
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 1: the beginning comes in and she looks at Lee and

1069
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 1: says sub which is like okay, so she knows about it.

1070
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:03,360
Speaker 1: And then we see like Lee, you know, she's at

1071
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 1: the diner like listening to a book on tape or

1072
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:08,800
Speaker 1: whatever about subdom relationships. But all we ever hear from

1073
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 1: him is that he's like ashamed of this inherent nature

1074
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 1: that he has, Like is this just is he an

1075
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 1: inherently bad guy who likes to harm people, whether they're

1076
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 1: just his secretary or they're his partner, because he's he's

1077
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 1: engaging in it without any consent or without at least conversation.

1078
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 1: There's never a moment where he's like, hey, I'm into

1079
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 1: this lifestyle or hey, you know, he just is full

1080
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 1: of shame about it. So it's very much like I

1081
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 1: don't even know if we can consider him someone who

1082
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 1: is into b D s M because they never even

1083
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:44,520
Speaker 1: say that about his character, Like we don't even know

1084
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:48,440
Speaker 1: that he that he like uses those ideas of consent

1085
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 1: that are in the b D s M community, because

1086
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 1: he just seems like a creep who would probably be

1087
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 1: a jerk to anyone who worked in his office. Right,

1088
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 1: It's I felt like there there was a moment when

1089
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:05,160
Speaker 1: like he experiences the shame about like the kind of

1090
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:07,640
Speaker 1: sex he likes to have, where you're like, oh, like

1091
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 1: maybe the movie is going to make a like an

1092
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:13,120
Speaker 1: interesting point about that, because that's something that happens, and

1093
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:16,280
Speaker 1: like you know it. There are cases of people who

1094
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:19,160
Speaker 1: are so ashamed of what they want and sex that

1095
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:22,280
Speaker 1: they won't educate themselves because they don't want to acknowledge

1096
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:24,880
Speaker 1: that part of themselves. But that but it but that

1097
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 1: you know, that does not happen. It just kind of drops.

1098
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:30,040
Speaker 1: He doesn't learn a thing. Yeah he could. I mean,

1099
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:32,800
Speaker 1: if he has money for a horse saddle. I have

1100
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 1: to imagine he could pick up a book on B

1101
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:38,520
Speaker 1: D s M or safe Words or just like a

1102
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:41,560
Speaker 1: book on tape on like you know, just being like, so,

1103
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 1: can I spank you? I feel like library cards are free. Yeah,

1104
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 1: I feel like he definitely has access to those resources.

1105
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:52,800
Speaker 1: So just they're afraid to ever like just jump into

1106
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:55,040
Speaker 1: the B D s M conversation and in the end,

1107
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 1: that makes it so much more sinister and just so

1108
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 1: much more confusing about what Lee is actually signing up for.

1109
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 1: I'm curious, actually, maybe you will have some insight into

1110
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 1: this of because it's and I've read like a number

1111
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:12,680
Speaker 1: of like pieces that are sort of like, oh, I

1112
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 1: recognize that uh Secretary has equal, if not worse issues

1113
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:19,480
Speaker 1: and fifty shades of great. I just like it more

1114
01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 1: and I'm like more attached to it. And my guess

1115
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 1: is because it was the only even semi mainstream movie

1116
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:28,360
Speaker 1: that dealt with this at the time. Okay, I think

1117
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:30,480
Speaker 1: that's it it's like, I mean, even watching it now,

1118
01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 1: I was a little like, wow, this came out so

1119
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:38,680
Speaker 1: long ago, like twenty years now, and I mean at

1120
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:42,120
Speaker 1: the time, it was like so shocking that poster is

1121
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:45,480
Speaker 1: so shocking. You're like, wow, I've never seen a film

1122
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:47,920
Speaker 1: just kind of talk about even just self harm. I

1123
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:50,400
Speaker 1: think for me that was such a shocking thing, like

1124
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 1: mental health and that just being something that like a

1125
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 1: woman can have those issues and you can talk about

1126
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:57,920
Speaker 1: it in a movie. Uh. You know. I feel like

1127
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:02,800
Speaker 1: this was that time period of like really like quirky, cute,

1128
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:05,720
Speaker 1: manic pixie dream girls who were all like you know,

1129
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:09,480
Speaker 1: plan ukuleles, and then there was this like dark girl

1130
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:11,919
Speaker 1: who was like hurting herself and dealing with mental health

1131
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 1: issues and like issues of self esteem. And obviously that

1132
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 1: resonated for someone like me who listened to Torrey Amos.

1133
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:23,360
Speaker 1: So I was like in a prime position to love

1134
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:27,320
Speaker 1: this movie. And you know, I still think it it

1135
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:31,400
Speaker 1: does deserve some credit for doing a lot before anyone

1136
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:35,919
Speaker 1: else did it, but I mean it also still does

1137
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:38,680
Speaker 1: so much wrong. Like it, you know, and I think

1138
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:41,960
Speaker 1: we can say like, yeah, it's great, and I I

1139
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:46,040
Speaker 1: can you know, proudly proudly say, like, yeah, I tried

1140
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:48,240
Speaker 1: to spank myself with a hairbrush because I saw it

1141
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:51,720
Speaker 1: in this movie, and you know, I'm into that, Like, okay,

1142
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 1: think I I owe that to secretary. But at the

1143
01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:58,120
Speaker 1: same time, James Spader is creepy and this movie could

1144
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 1: be better written. Sure, two things can be true. Yeah, yeah,

1145
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 1: I like I think that it is like definitely good

1146
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:11,080
Speaker 1: that people are able to like discover stuff or feel

1147
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 1: even somewhat seen in a movie like this. I just

1148
01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:19,840
Speaker 1: was really I don't know because and I also think

1149
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:21,800
Speaker 1: that the other thing is that it's like it is

1150
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 1: just a better crafted movie the fifty Shades of Great.

1151
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:26,680
Speaker 1: No one wants to watch fifty Great Shades of Gray

1152
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:30,760
Speaker 1: because it's like a shitty movie, even though it is

1153
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:33,880
Speaker 1: you know, we've talked about it in another episode, and

1154
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:36,720
Speaker 1: there's just not the bandwidth the handle it now. But

1155
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 1: there are at least some basic B D s M

1156
01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:44,040
Speaker 1: dynamics introduced in fifty Shades of Gray. Whether they are

1157
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 1: actually abided by by the couple, uh doesn't always happen.

1158
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 1: But you are introduced to the just consent and uh,

1159
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 1: you know, what's her name whatever, and so embarrassing and

1160
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:02,440
Speaker 1: as Stasia get an opportunity, and I guess opportunities like

1161
01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:05,080
Speaker 1: an overstatement, but like she gets to say, here are

1162
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:07,400
Speaker 1: my boundaries, here's what I won't do, and they do

1163
01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:10,880
Speaker 1: that little negotiation and they have some aftercare with each

1164
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 1: other and they cuddle after stuff, and it's just like

1165
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 1: it's very like one oh one, but at least it's

1166
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:22,280
Speaker 1: it's there with yeah, because with Lee there is nothing.

1167
01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 1: I mean, she doesn't even read, she doesn't listen to

1168
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 1: that book on tape until after he has ended their relationship.

1169
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: She she doesn't go out with other people who are

1170
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:34,800
Speaker 1: into this lifestyle until after the relationship. So she gets

1171
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:38,360
Speaker 1: into it not even knowing what it is. Apparently like

1172
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:42,480
Speaker 1: she's doing these things, she's like happy to crawl on

1173
01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:44,880
Speaker 1: the floor and all this stuff, but she actually has

1174
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:49,120
Speaker 1: no idea what she's engaging with until later, and she's

1175
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:53,439
Speaker 1: just being like physically and emotionally abused by this guy.

1176
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 1: Because it seems like for Mr Gray that it is

1177
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 1: just as much of a twenty four seven emotional consumption

1178
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 1: as it's like they're just are no lines. She's given

1179
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:09,600
Speaker 1: no information and because we're introduced to her as kind

1180
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:13,720
Speaker 1: of this childlike character. You kind of assume, well, she

1181
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:16,800
Speaker 1: is not going to be given the agency to figure

1182
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:18,600
Speaker 1: out she doesn't really have anyone else to talk to

1183
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 1: in her life because her family is framed as being

1184
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 1: so I think they're like a joke. Yeah, the family,

1185
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:28,640
Speaker 1: her sister is a character. I don't know why the

1186
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:31,720
Speaker 1: sister is not like a friend or someone she can

1187
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:34,240
Speaker 1: relate to. I don't know why she doesn't have friends

1188
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:36,960
Speaker 1: or just any sort of female character where she can

1189
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:40,240
Speaker 1: be like, I have these feelings about this situation or

1190
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:46,120
Speaker 1: this boy that never happens. We only relate her mom. Yeah,

1191
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:49,720
Speaker 1: all we really know is that Mr Gray is better

1192
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:53,160
Speaker 1: than this other guy who is boring. So that is

1193
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:57,240
Speaker 1: why Mr Gray is good, which poor poor Peter. Peter

1194
01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:01,800
Speaker 1: is nice. He cares about you spec her. Maybe he's

1195
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:04,560
Speaker 1: he's really bad at sex, but at least he treats

1196
01:08:04,560 --> 01:08:07,600
Speaker 1: her well. He could learn, and maybe you know, he

1197
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:10,440
Speaker 1: just wants to get married and have kids. You know,

1198
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:13,880
Speaker 1: you can teach someone to spank, you can, It's really

1199
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:16,479
Speaker 1: easy to do. Yeah, I feel like he would have

1200
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:19,080
Speaker 1: been game if she'd been like, hey, so I realized

1201
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:20,640
Speaker 1: I'm into b D s M and I want to

1202
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:24,440
Speaker 1: explore this and if she had used the language with him, okay,

1203
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:28,760
Speaker 1: but instead he was just like tape. I feel like

1204
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:30,960
Speaker 1: he would have been like, I'm game to try this

1205
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:32,880
Speaker 1: and figure it out for you. He seems so in

1206
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:36,640
Speaker 1: love with her, and then instead he's just like I

1207
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:39,559
Speaker 1: didn't actually like how they have him confront her in

1208
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:42,360
Speaker 1: that situation, because they tried to kind of paint him

1209
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:45,920
Speaker 1: as the abuser, like he's the only person who manages

1210
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:48,360
Speaker 1: to push her out of that chair and he's like,

1211
01:08:48,439 --> 01:08:50,200
Speaker 1: I don't care if you want to stay here, I'm

1212
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:52,640
Speaker 1: going to push you and like physically violate you. And

1213
01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:55,120
Speaker 1: that's like a clear moment when they have a man

1214
01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:57,600
Speaker 1: like to fire her physical agency and she yells like

1215
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:02,080
Speaker 1: no and like runs to the chair, and I'm just like, wait, no,

1216
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:05,400
Speaker 1: that's so out of character for him. Yeah, Like like

1217
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:07,920
Speaker 1: first of all, like that's out of character. He's never

1218
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:10,120
Speaker 1: been this aggressive person, Like why would he all of

1219
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:12,360
Speaker 1: a sudden just like grab her and do this. But

1220
01:09:12,400 --> 01:09:16,400
Speaker 1: also he's the good guy, Like come on, Like, how

1221
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:18,519
Speaker 1: are you going to paint him as the one who's

1222
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:22,120
Speaker 1: like actually now abusive and going against her wishes when

1223
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:24,880
Speaker 1: all he has done has just been like I will

1224
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:26,760
Speaker 1: only touch you with my pinky and you can keep

1225
01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:28,840
Speaker 1: all your clothes on and whatever you would like, we

1226
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:30,360
Speaker 1: do this the way that you want to do it,

1227
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:32,880
Speaker 1: like come on. There was also like I felt like

1228
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:37,559
Speaker 1: a kind of subtle like dumping on Peter class wise

1229
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 1: as well, Like I think that they were first of

1230
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:42,120
Speaker 1: all being like Peter isn't something enough for her, and

1231
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:46,400
Speaker 1: I think that, like, you know, sexually masculine is a

1232
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:49,080
Speaker 1: part of that. And then they're also like subtly dumping

1233
01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:52,120
Speaker 1: on him for working at j C. Penny all the time.

1234
01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:55,120
Speaker 1: They like anytime he comes up there, like and he

1235
01:09:55,240 --> 01:09:58,760
Speaker 1: proposed to me in the basement of like they're just

1236
01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:02,240
Speaker 1: which is a good line, but that was a good moment.

1237
01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:04,000
Speaker 1: I love that scene when they're just sitting there and

1238
01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:07,400
Speaker 1: she's like, yeah, I guess I'll marry you. Okay, okay.

1239
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:10,120
Speaker 1: But they're also kind of being like, oh, this guy

1240
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:13,840
Speaker 1: is like he doesn't funk hard enough and he's poor,

1241
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:19,040
Speaker 1: Like he's the nicest person in the movie. He just

1242
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:22,320
Speaker 1: is so sweet and nice. He gives a rides when

1243
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:24,599
Speaker 1: they like when she's like, oh, this wedding sucks, he's

1244
01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 1: there to be like hey, yeah, do you need anything,

1245
01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:30,479
Speaker 1: Like he just is so sweet and the movie is like, yeah,

1246
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:33,320
Speaker 1: but no, Mr Gray is the is this just really

1247
01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:37,439
Speaker 1: complex guy? And she gets him, and I just I

1248
01:10:37,439 --> 01:10:39,559
Speaker 1: still don't know what we're supposed to like about the

1249
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:43,200
Speaker 1: guy truly, and contrasting that with like, I mean, like

1250
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:46,599
Speaker 1: I said this a little earlier too, but like how

1251
01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:51,040
Speaker 1: her turning point as like a character is when he

1252
01:10:51,240 --> 01:10:54,600
Speaker 1: just suggests that she should no longer self harm. So

1253
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 1: it's also like, oh, if you have a crush, that

1254
01:10:58,280 --> 01:11:01,479
Speaker 1: will cure your mental illness. Like there's just all sorts

1255
01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:08,759
Speaker 1: of bizarre messages being bandied about. He has a polaroid camera,

1256
01:11:09,080 --> 01:11:12,559
Speaker 1: she has. She has no more problems, okay, the polar

1257
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:17,280
Speaker 1: and camera thing. I watched this movie with a person

1258
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:20,719
Speaker 1: that I am dating, which was interesting because I forced

1259
01:11:20,720 --> 01:11:22,439
Speaker 1: them to watch it, and the whole time I was

1260
01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:24,000
Speaker 1: just like, keep in mind, this is like the most

1261
01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:26,680
Speaker 1: informative movie to my sexual awakening in my life, so

1262
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:29,640
Speaker 1: just keep that in mind the whole time. And we

1263
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:32,240
Speaker 1: like got into a fight over the polaroid scene because

1264
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:35,880
Speaker 1: I swore there were pictures of multiple girls in that

1265
01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:38,479
Speaker 1: book and he had polaroids of like his ex and

1266
01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:41,280
Speaker 1: like other secretary he does, and then he burns it.

1267
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:43,519
Speaker 1: Yeah right, And I was like, this shows us this

1268
01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:45,960
Speaker 1: is a history of abuse, is a pattern, Like this

1269
01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with Lee, this is just this

1270
01:11:48,120 --> 01:11:51,639
Speaker 1: guy doing this. But my partner was like, no, those

1271
01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:54,320
Speaker 1: were all photos of Lee, so just on the record,

1272
01:11:54,400 --> 01:11:59,160
Speaker 1: let's all tell the definitely different people. And then yeah,

1273
01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:02,400
Speaker 1: that also is more of and again just like demonizing.

1274
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:05,160
Speaker 1: I mean everyone is kind of demonized in this movie,

1275
01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:08,639
Speaker 1: but like it demonizes the b d s M community

1276
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:11,960
Speaker 1: by being like, yeah, they keep things like serial killers,

1277
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:17,240
Speaker 1: like he's has this like serial killer scrapple, like women,

1278
01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:22,280
Speaker 1: he's upset, like it's just he keeps their their photos

1279
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:26,360
Speaker 1: and his beautiful orchid garden, and like like b DSM

1280
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:30,599
Speaker 1: people are just inherent monsters who can't control themselves except

1281
01:12:30,680 --> 01:12:34,120
Speaker 1: through push ups and treadmills. He is so sweaty in

1282
01:12:34,120 --> 01:12:39,520
Speaker 1: that treadmill scene. Oh my gosh. Like they voluntarily flashback

1283
01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:42,080
Speaker 1: to that shot a second time. I was like, I

1284
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:46,400
Speaker 1: didn't want to see that again. Also, they also they

1285
01:12:46,439 --> 01:12:48,800
Speaker 1: have her flashback to it, but it's not the part

1286
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:51,240
Speaker 1: when she was there, and I was like, how did

1287
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:53,800
Speaker 1: how did she know? He was running that hard? Then

1288
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:57,000
Speaker 1: how did she see it? That is such a heartbreaking

1289
01:12:57,040 --> 01:13:00,160
Speaker 1: scene too, and that like when she her so her

1290
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:05,680
Speaker 1: father is sick, she's really upset about it. She's like

1291
01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:09,560
Speaker 1: not able to communicate with her mother and her siblings,

1292
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:12,360
Speaker 1: and so she goes to him for like emotional support.

1293
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:16,639
Speaker 1: She kind of has no reason, being as romantically naive

1294
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:19,120
Speaker 1: as she is and also as like manipulous, like she

1295
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:21,640
Speaker 1: has no reason to believe that he won't you be

1296
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:24,000
Speaker 1: nice to her? But then he makes it clear right away,

1297
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:28,120
Speaker 1: like I don't you know that? Like I don't do emotions,

1298
01:13:28,439 --> 01:13:31,559
Speaker 1: and it's the hot and the cold. It's that classic

1299
01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:34,919
Speaker 1: just like you know. He he made her feel so special,

1300
01:13:35,080 --> 01:13:37,640
Speaker 1: made her feel so like, oh, I'm going to fix you,

1301
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:40,080
Speaker 1: and I see everything that's wrong with you. And then

1302
01:13:40,120 --> 01:13:42,960
Speaker 1: the second she's like, oh, I actually need your emotional support,

1303
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:46,280
Speaker 1: he's like, I'll read the files in the morning, get

1304
01:13:46,280 --> 01:13:48,960
Speaker 1: out of here, right, And then he just sits on

1305
01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:52,000
Speaker 1: his bed and like looks out a window, like how

1306
01:13:52,120 --> 01:13:55,160
Speaker 1: dare she expect me to show the emotions that I

1307
01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:58,600
Speaker 1: promised her i'd show, right, especially when he's like, you

1308
01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 1: can talk to me about out your problems. Yeah, he

1309
01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:05,200
Speaker 1: like that's the whole opening of their relationships and being like, yeah,

1310
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:06,760
Speaker 1: we can be intimate and you can talk to me.

1311
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:09,720
Speaker 1: And then when she's actually like my dad, which I

1312
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:12,360
Speaker 1: don't I like that they never in the end like

1313
01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:14,400
Speaker 1: give us closure on the family thing in terms of

1314
01:14:14,439 --> 01:14:16,920
Speaker 1: the dad's like sickness. Like, for all we know, she's

1315
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:18,840
Speaker 1: like fucking on this tree and her dad is just

1316
01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:22,280
Speaker 1: dead in a ditch somewhere. We have no idea like

1317
01:14:22,400 --> 01:14:24,840
Speaker 1: he yeah, we don't find out if her mom ever

1318
01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:28,120
Speaker 1: like gets out of that relationship. And also and then

1319
01:14:28,400 --> 01:14:31,160
Speaker 1: it kind of like I just think that that like

1320
01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:33,720
Speaker 1: shot of abuse at the beginning ends up being so

1321
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:38,439
Speaker 1: gratuitous because it is never revisited other than like her

1322
01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:42,120
Speaker 1: like possibly I could see being like, oh, I don't

1323
01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:44,719
Speaker 1: you know, like you were saying, Caitlin, like this is abuse.

1324
01:14:44,840 --> 01:14:47,160
Speaker 1: This is an abuse. But then don't bring the dad

1325
01:14:47,200 --> 01:14:49,560
Speaker 1: back at the end when she's pissing herself as like

1326
01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:52,840
Speaker 1: a good like the best guy. Yeah, the one who

1327
01:14:52,880 --> 01:14:56,400
Speaker 1: like understands her like this dad who's abusive is the

1328
01:14:56,400 --> 01:14:58,639
Speaker 1: one who's like, I have the Bible Verse you need

1329
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:03,760
Speaker 1: and she's like thank you, daddy, which felt gross. That

1330
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:07,040
Speaker 1: felt like an illegal use of Daddy in that scene.

1331
01:15:07,160 --> 01:15:09,200
Speaker 1: I think they should cut it from the film in

1332
01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:12,120
Speaker 1: the future, strike it from the record. I also like

1333
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:15,759
Speaker 1: with with her mom, I can't help but feel because

1334
01:15:15,760 --> 01:15:20,400
Speaker 1: her mom is painted as being very submissive. Also in

1335
01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:23,280
Speaker 1: the fact that she seems to have nothing better to

1336
01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:26,960
Speaker 1: do than wait outside of Lee's work for hours on end,

1337
01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:28,720
Speaker 1: like we're just waiting for her to be done, to

1338
01:15:28,720 --> 01:15:31,040
Speaker 1: pick her up, and I mean, we don't really know

1339
01:15:31,120 --> 01:15:35,040
Speaker 1: anything about her except that again she's she just seems

1340
01:15:35,080 --> 01:15:39,320
Speaker 1: to be depicted as this very submissive person, and I

1341
01:15:39,360 --> 01:15:41,920
Speaker 1: feel like the movie is like wanting you to think

1342
01:15:42,680 --> 01:15:45,960
Speaker 1: this is the way not to be submissive, because Lee

1343
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:50,080
Speaker 1: is doing it right. And I think there's like there's

1344
01:15:50,080 --> 01:15:53,000
Speaker 1: like I can see a read of this movie and

1345
01:15:53,120 --> 01:15:56,160
Speaker 1: all of the defenses of this movie that I've read

1346
01:15:56,200 --> 01:15:59,920
Speaker 1: of because people love to write about how Secretary is

1347
01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:02,479
Speaker 1: better than Fifty Shades of Gray. So I was reading

1348
01:16:02,479 --> 01:16:05,680
Speaker 1: several of those pieces, and a lot of them were

1349
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:10,800
Speaker 1: making the argument that Lee she's given agency. She eventually

1350
01:16:10,840 --> 01:16:16,480
Speaker 1: starts consenting and initiating some of these dom sub interactions

1351
01:16:16,520 --> 01:16:20,880
Speaker 1: with Mr. Gray. People have written about how she as

1352
01:16:20,960 --> 01:16:25,839
Speaker 1: she's becoming more submissive to him. She's actually becoming more

1353
01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:29,760
Speaker 1: dominant in her own life and that she's empowered, and

1354
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:32,720
Speaker 1: I can see parts of that. I think her mother

1355
01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:35,559
Speaker 1: character is like written the way she is so that

1356
01:16:36,400 --> 01:16:39,720
Speaker 1: there's like this stark contrast of like here's the bad

1357
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:42,559
Speaker 1: way to be submissive and here's the good way to

1358
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:47,280
Speaker 1: be submissive. I don't really don't like that. I feel

1359
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:53,120
Speaker 1: about that necessarily, but I don't like it. That does

1360
01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:55,600
Speaker 1: make sense to me that I mean, especially I guess that,

1361
01:16:55,920 --> 01:16:58,120
Speaker 1: like I mean, every movie you have to take the

1362
01:16:58,160 --> 01:17:01,040
Speaker 1: time it came out as context by like maybe especially

1363
01:17:01,080 --> 01:17:04,600
Speaker 1: with the movie like this, where this was the option

1364
01:17:05,240 --> 01:17:09,679
Speaker 1: for a semi mainstream BDSM movie. And then also there

1365
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:15,920
Speaker 1: are just so few movies about women being remotely sexually empowered,

1366
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:19,280
Speaker 1: even if if you look at the text carefully, like

1367
01:17:19,439 --> 01:17:21,400
Speaker 1: are they really? But I feel like this movie was

1368
01:17:21,520 --> 01:17:24,640
Speaker 1: very much framed and you were supposed to think that

1369
01:17:24,720 --> 01:17:28,080
Speaker 1: she was very sexually empowered, and sometimes that is enough

1370
01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:31,040
Speaker 1: if there's not you know, other options. So I mean

1371
01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:36,120
Speaker 1: the fact that you see female masturbation, you see female orgasm,

1372
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:40,200
Speaker 1: female pleasure. I feel like she only reaches orgasm when

1373
01:17:40,280 --> 01:17:44,160
Speaker 1: she is masturbating and not in anything that she's doing

1374
01:17:44,240 --> 01:17:48,439
Speaker 1: with Mr. Gray. No, No, that's true. I mean we

1375
01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:52,760
Speaker 1: really only see them have sex, like when they are

1376
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:56,280
Speaker 1: on against the tree. That's the only time. The other

1377
01:17:56,360 --> 01:17:58,920
Speaker 1: time is just like him for like going over every

1378
01:17:58,960 --> 01:18:02,080
Speaker 1: scar one by one and because she's finally found someone

1379
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:06,360
Speaker 1: so smart that he can understand her scars. That is

1380
01:18:06,479 --> 01:18:10,600
Speaker 1: such a I remember that, like not not as sexualized,

1381
01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:13,320
Speaker 1: but like I remember a very similar scene on Degrassi

1382
01:18:13,439 --> 01:18:15,559
Speaker 1: which was like, oh, like in two thousand two, I

1383
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:19,360
Speaker 1: was very on the Degrassy train and there was there

1384
01:18:19,400 --> 01:18:22,400
Speaker 1: was a girl like a character who self harmed, and

1385
01:18:22,439 --> 01:18:27,400
Speaker 1: then it was it was Ellie Stacy Farber currently on

1386
01:18:27,439 --> 01:18:31,120
Speaker 1: Grayce and Frankie. We love her. She's great, a star,

1387
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:34,800
Speaker 1: she's great. She was the hot topic girl too, but

1388
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:36,680
Speaker 1: she there was like you know that. I feel like

1389
01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:39,680
Speaker 1: it is like almost a trophy moment where it's like

1390
01:18:39,720 --> 01:18:42,920
Speaker 1: when the person who's self harming finds someone who accepts them.

1391
01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:46,439
Speaker 1: They touch your scars and you're like, wow, I finally

1392
01:18:46,600 --> 01:18:49,400
Speaker 1: have found love and I am beautiful. And it's corny

1393
01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:52,559
Speaker 1: but it's also potent in a way. Like in this movie.

1394
01:18:52,560 --> 01:18:54,960
Speaker 1: It didn't really hit for me because I don't value

1395
01:18:55,080 --> 01:18:59,240
Speaker 1: like their relationship is so dark and fucked up. But

1396
01:18:59,320 --> 01:19:02,719
Speaker 1: in other situations I've been like, that's nice. It worked.

1397
01:19:02,720 --> 01:19:06,400
Speaker 1: It worked for me in Degrassi anyways. Yeah, Degrassi definitely

1398
01:19:06,439 --> 01:19:09,040
Speaker 1: pulled it off better than this movie did. They could

1399
01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:12,240
Speaker 1: have taken some notes, I think, because I don't in

1400
01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:16,200
Speaker 1: this scene. I mean, even when he first notices her scars,

1401
01:19:16,240 --> 01:19:19,360
Speaker 1: because he notices them before he even tells her the

1402
01:19:19,400 --> 01:19:21,680
Speaker 1: whole like stop doing that or catches her trying it.

1403
01:19:22,280 --> 01:19:25,240
Speaker 1: She's like setting a rat trap and he's being mean

1404
01:19:25,280 --> 01:19:28,080
Speaker 1: about it. And then like her her like dress comes

1405
01:19:28,120 --> 01:19:30,040
Speaker 1: up and he sees it. So to me, it's like

1406
01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:33,960
Speaker 1: already he is. It's not something where he's like, oh,

1407
01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:36,040
Speaker 1: I want to understand this about her. It's like he's

1408
01:19:36,040 --> 01:19:38,719
Speaker 1: going to use it against her. It's something that he's like, oh,

1409
01:19:38,760 --> 01:19:40,920
Speaker 1: this is another way where I can control her and

1410
01:19:41,000 --> 01:19:44,599
Speaker 1: change her and fix her, versus like, oh, I want

1411
01:19:44,600 --> 01:19:48,640
Speaker 1: to understand what causes her to do this. I mean,

1412
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:50,120
Speaker 1: I don't think he ever asked. I don't think he

1413
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:51,960
Speaker 1: ever was like, so, what's what's the whole? You know

1414
01:19:52,160 --> 01:19:55,000
Speaker 1: nothing about each other. In that scene where they're finally

1415
01:19:55,120 --> 01:19:58,800
Speaker 1: like having a tender like kissing moment after he has

1416
01:19:59,000 --> 01:20:03,320
Speaker 1: bathed her, She's like, who are you? Where did you

1417
01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:08,280
Speaker 1: grow up? Where were you bored? What are your interests?

1418
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:11,559
Speaker 1: They don't know anything about each other. Gives the most

1419
01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:17,400
Speaker 1: boring answer. He's like, Moine Iowa, I mean, shout out

1420
01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:20,720
Speaker 1: to des Moines and our de Moin listeners, But who

1421
01:20:20,800 --> 01:20:23,840
Speaker 1: knew that demo des Moines Iowa was like making the

1422
01:20:23,880 --> 01:20:27,680
Speaker 1: most complicated men of all time, Like somewhere in a

1423
01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:31,800
Speaker 1: corn field, they're just cranking out these just complex beings

1424
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:35,320
Speaker 1: who cannot be understood with our our simple female brains.

1425
01:20:35,920 --> 01:20:40,280
Speaker 1: He has no story, like it's they know I feel

1426
01:20:40,360 --> 01:20:43,200
Speaker 1: I feel for for Lee, So I am very curious

1427
01:20:43,200 --> 01:20:45,760
Speaker 1: of like what does this relationship look like for Lee?

1428
01:20:46,040 --> 01:20:49,440
Speaker 1: Down the line a little bit like when she genuinely

1429
01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:51,680
Speaker 1: does come into her own a little more and like

1430
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:55,320
Speaker 1: mature's more like, I don't know. I don't see this

1431
01:20:55,640 --> 01:21:01,519
Speaker 1: relationship maybe lasting forever. What have ends? When Lee wants kids, like,

1432
01:21:03,840 --> 01:21:06,160
Speaker 1: he's like, I've got orchids. I'm I'm good. I don't

1433
01:21:06,160 --> 01:21:10,200
Speaker 1: need children. I have orchids them my creepy album, like

1434
01:21:10,560 --> 01:21:14,360
Speaker 1: and maybe a horse. He might have a horse, or

1435
01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:18,479
Speaker 1: at least the parts to have one. Yeah, he's got

1436
01:21:18,520 --> 01:21:25,160
Speaker 1: the accessory everything but the horse. Yeah. I mean, ultimately,

1437
01:21:25,160 --> 01:21:29,560
Speaker 1: like with with this character, especially like it's very romantic,

1438
01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:32,400
Speaker 1: and I feel like where this movie very suddenly pivots

1439
01:21:32,439 --> 01:21:37,000
Speaker 1: into like romcomp territory at the end, like you're supposed

1440
01:21:37,080 --> 01:21:40,280
Speaker 1: to believe I guess that she changed him, which is

1441
01:21:40,360 --> 01:21:44,200
Speaker 1: just like never an idea that serves anybody is like, yeah,

1442
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:47,439
Speaker 1: he treated every other person he's ever been in a

1443
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:51,200
Speaker 1: relationship with like absolute garbage, deeply hurt them, ruin their

1444
01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:54,680
Speaker 1: lives in some cases. But he was just waiting for

1445
01:21:54,720 --> 01:21:58,479
Speaker 1: the girl that would for a whole week at his

1446
01:21:58,560 --> 01:22:03,160
Speaker 1: desk on TV for the media, and that made him

1447
01:22:03,280 --> 01:22:05,719
Speaker 1: fall in love with her. Like it's just so many

1448
01:22:05,840 --> 01:22:10,639
Speaker 1: levels of it. You're just like come on, like who God?

1449
01:22:10,920 --> 01:22:13,760
Speaker 1: And I know, because I was such an impressionable like

1450
01:22:14,240 --> 01:22:17,320
Speaker 1: twelve year old, I would have been like, wow, so

1451
01:22:17,320 --> 01:22:20,439
Speaker 1: so that's what we're gonna do. Okay, Like I can't

1452
01:22:20,479 --> 01:22:23,400
Speaker 1: say that, I can't say that's not how I've dated

1453
01:22:23,439 --> 01:22:27,160
Speaker 1: my entire life. I can't say that this movie didn't

1454
01:22:27,200 --> 01:22:29,760
Speaker 1: have that impact where I just want someone who's going

1455
01:22:29,800 --> 01:22:33,120
Speaker 1: to tell me what to eat for dinner and carry

1456
01:22:33,200 --> 01:22:37,200
Speaker 1: me and feed me carrots. I think that's just like

1457
01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:40,240
Speaker 1: what I want, and that is because of Secretary, But

1458
01:22:41,479 --> 01:22:43,519
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just I think it's a little

1459
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:45,760
Speaker 1: dangerous now when I look back, Like, yes, it was

1460
01:22:45,880 --> 01:22:47,559
Speaker 1: like one of the first movies to do that. But

1461
01:22:47,680 --> 01:22:50,799
Speaker 1: for that same reason, like I as like a young queer,

1462
01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:54,679
Speaker 1: I put so much into it, Like I was so like, oh,

1463
01:22:54,720 --> 01:22:57,080
Speaker 1: this is this is what you know my experience should

1464
01:22:57,080 --> 01:22:59,040
Speaker 1: be like, and oh I need to find So it's

1465
01:22:59,040 --> 01:23:01,559
Speaker 1: gonna be tough to find someone who gets me because

1466
01:23:01,600 --> 01:23:04,519
Speaker 1: as a woman who's into this lifestyle, I'm just hard

1467
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:06,679
Speaker 1: to understand and I have to deal with someone who's

1468
01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:09,800
Speaker 1: hard to understand, and that is something that takes so

1469
01:23:09,840 --> 01:23:12,200
Speaker 1: long to unlearn. Like, no, you you don't have to

1470
01:23:12,240 --> 01:23:15,000
Speaker 1: deal with men like this. You don't have to deal

1471
01:23:15,040 --> 01:23:18,120
Speaker 1: with anyone like this. Actually, you can find people who

1472
01:23:18,640 --> 01:23:21,880
Speaker 1: know about consent and use their words and speak at

1473
01:23:21,880 --> 01:23:27,280
Speaker 1: a reasonable valume like life can be easy. It's audibly

1474
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:31,800
Speaker 1: like office. Oh god, he says so many like pivotal

1475
01:23:31,880 --> 01:23:35,559
Speaker 1: lines of the movie so quietly. That makes a lot

1476
01:23:35,560 --> 01:23:38,120
Speaker 1: of sense though, like and and again, if if this

1477
01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:40,439
Speaker 1: is the only movie of its kind, like where else

1478
01:23:40,439 --> 01:23:43,760
Speaker 1: do you really have to turn for media to like

1479
01:23:43,880 --> 01:23:46,000
Speaker 1: it was like this and the L word. That's like

1480
01:23:46,080 --> 01:23:48,680
Speaker 1: I think all we had which I had to read

1481
01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:51,759
Speaker 1: with the deal word. Well, I like what I find.

1482
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:55,960
Speaker 1: I think there's some pretty problematic ship in that show.

1483
01:23:57,200 --> 01:24:00,160
Speaker 1: That's why I rewatched it once a year. It not

1484
01:24:00,280 --> 01:24:04,519
Speaker 1: aged well, it's it's just as problematic as Secretary in

1485
01:24:04,640 --> 01:24:06,720
Speaker 1: terms of just I don't know. I guess it was

1486
01:24:06,760 --> 01:24:09,519
Speaker 1: like the sex sexy period of time when everyone was

1487
01:24:09,600 --> 01:24:13,800
Speaker 1: just like, oh, we're hot, sex positivity. You don't need

1488
01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:16,160
Speaker 1: to say yes verbally because we just see it in

1489
01:24:16,200 --> 01:24:19,280
Speaker 1: your eyes. And now we're at a point where like, no, no,

1490
01:24:19,400 --> 01:24:21,759
Speaker 1: you could, you should use the words, you should actually

1491
01:24:21,760 --> 01:24:25,760
Speaker 1: have the character because if if I mean if like

1492
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:28,439
Speaker 1: the and this kind of we've kind of been saying

1493
01:24:28,479 --> 01:24:32,160
Speaker 1: this for the whole episode, but like if you switched

1494
01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:35,479
Speaker 1: the dynamic even two percent so that it's not this

1495
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:39,840
Speaker 1: perfectly calibrated, like these two people meeting each other, meeting

1496
01:24:39,880 --> 01:24:42,720
Speaker 1: each other at the exact right time, and this like

1497
01:24:43,080 --> 01:24:47,040
Speaker 1: it would be like like a Hollywood Reporter article about

1498
01:24:47,120 --> 01:24:50,840
Speaker 1: workplace abuse, like it just I don't know. It's such

1499
01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:53,000
Speaker 1: a bummer because you you do have to imagine for

1500
01:24:53,040 --> 01:24:56,799
Speaker 1: every person who saw themselves in Lee in a very

1501
01:24:56,840 --> 01:25:00,679
Speaker 1: like genuinely felt way, you had some fun and creepy.

1502
01:25:00,800 --> 01:25:04,679
Speaker 1: Did that felt like validated by Mr Gray? Of like, yeah,

1503
01:25:04,880 --> 01:25:08,519
Speaker 1: you know what, actually, probably when I treat people that way,

1504
01:25:08,720 --> 01:25:13,800
Speaker 1: I'm changing their life and making their life way better. Yeah.

1505
01:25:13,840 --> 01:25:16,880
Speaker 1: And also I think it shows those men kind of

1506
01:25:16,960 --> 01:25:20,720
Speaker 1: who to target. I mean, I think this movie is

1507
01:25:20,760 --> 01:25:24,720
Speaker 1: mostly about how Mr Gray selects his victims. It's like

1508
01:25:24,800 --> 01:25:27,320
Speaker 1: how he puts his secretaries through this test, like very

1509
01:25:27,400 --> 01:25:30,439
Speaker 1: quickly find someone who doesn't understand boundaries by asking them

1510
01:25:30,439 --> 01:25:33,519
Speaker 1: inappropriate questions in an interview, look and see if they

1511
01:25:33,600 --> 01:25:36,200
Speaker 1: self harm, because that's something you can use. Is there

1512
01:25:36,240 --> 01:25:38,120
Speaker 1: anything else where they play with their hair or their

1513
01:25:38,120 --> 01:25:40,439
Speaker 1: insecure that you can use against them? I mean, it's

1514
01:25:40,479 --> 01:25:43,280
Speaker 1: it's kind of dangerous in this way where I kind

1515
01:25:43,320 --> 01:25:46,840
Speaker 1: of think, mostly we know nothing about Lee, but we

1516
01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:50,160
Speaker 1: know a lot about how he chooses victims and why

1517
01:25:50,200 --> 01:25:54,960
Speaker 1: he chosely. Yeah, and then and then it's supposed to

1518
01:25:55,880 --> 01:25:58,200
Speaker 1: by the end you're like, no, but she's changed, and

1519
01:25:58,240 --> 01:26:01,920
Speaker 1: now he is changed. Change. But then but actually it's

1520
01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:03,840
Speaker 1: like you were saying, we know less about them at

1521
01:26:03,880 --> 01:26:06,679
Speaker 1: the end than we did at the beginning, and it's

1522
01:26:06,800 --> 01:26:10,920
Speaker 1: just kind of confusing. I will say, though I love

1523
01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:15,040
Speaker 1: Maggie Gillan Hall in this movie, I just generally love

1524
01:26:15,080 --> 01:26:18,800
Speaker 1: her so much. She can make uh not great movie

1525
01:26:19,479 --> 01:26:22,920
Speaker 1: much better. And this was kind of like a turning

1526
01:26:22,920 --> 01:26:25,200
Speaker 1: point in her career in a way that I always

1527
01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:30,320
Speaker 1: find kind of like interesting slash frustrating of like this

1528
01:26:30,479 --> 01:26:32,280
Speaker 1: was her I don't know. I feel like there is

1529
01:26:32,320 --> 01:26:37,040
Speaker 1: like this very trackable trend of mostly prior to this,

1530
01:26:37,040 --> 01:26:38,720
Speaker 1: like Maggie Gillan Hall has been in a lot, but

1531
01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:41,840
Speaker 1: she would mostly play like somebody's daughter or like she

1532
01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:44,360
Speaker 1: was like a very side character. She was not a

1533
01:26:44,479 --> 01:26:47,920
Speaker 1: leading lady. And I feel like there this happens a

1534
01:26:47,960 --> 01:26:51,360
Speaker 1: lot where you have to do like the sex role,

1535
01:26:51,880 --> 01:26:55,000
Speaker 1: and once you do the sex role, well you have

1536
01:26:55,120 --> 01:26:59,080
Speaker 1: become a legitimized actor, like as a as a woman,

1537
01:26:59,120 --> 01:27:01,360
Speaker 1: you mean, like as a Yeah, I think, I mean,

1538
01:27:01,400 --> 01:27:03,880
Speaker 1: I think we've seen a million times in like Sunny

1539
01:27:04,000 --> 01:27:10,720
Speaker 1: play stops, Funny, you gotta stop, sorry, Sunny Stop. I

1540
01:27:10,760 --> 01:27:15,160
Speaker 1: don't I can't speak to what just happened. Sonny at

1541
01:27:15,200 --> 01:27:19,640
Speaker 1: it again, bat Sonny doesn't like when women speak for

1542
01:27:19,680 --> 01:27:25,120
Speaker 1: too long, but I'll have to say, like I feel like,

1543
01:27:25,160 --> 01:27:27,320
Speaker 1: you know, like it's very trackable, and and and and

1544
01:27:27,360 --> 01:27:30,280
Speaker 1: Maggie Jillen Hall is like twenty three four when she

1545
01:27:30,360 --> 01:27:33,360
Speaker 1: films this, so it's not quite disagregious. But you know,

1546
01:27:33,360 --> 01:27:36,960
Speaker 1: it's like when a Disney star or Nickelodeon star graduates

1547
01:27:37,040 --> 01:27:40,559
Speaker 1: out of playing kid roles and does an adult role,

1548
01:27:40,600 --> 01:27:44,040
Speaker 1: it's always like a zero to one hundred, like the

1549
01:27:44,080 --> 01:27:48,280
Speaker 1: most adult role that could possibly play. And this is

1550
01:27:48,360 --> 01:27:51,160
Speaker 1: kind of that moment for Maggie Jillen Hall. And she's

1551
01:27:51,200 --> 01:27:53,760
Speaker 1: a great I mean, she's a she's so talented, and

1552
01:27:53,800 --> 01:27:56,640
Speaker 1: it like, in spite of everything, I still think she

1553
01:27:56,680 --> 01:28:00,439
Speaker 1: gives a really good performance. I just wish that didn't

1554
01:28:00,479 --> 01:28:04,519
Speaker 1: necessarily have to happen to for her to be another stuff.

1555
01:28:05,200 --> 01:28:07,760
Speaker 1: And at least she does sell that that look at

1556
01:28:07,800 --> 01:28:10,400
Speaker 1: the end, that that breaking the fourth wall, like that

1557
01:28:10,520 --> 01:28:13,160
Speaker 1: is entirely just Maggie being like, I did what I

1558
01:28:13,200 --> 01:28:16,719
Speaker 1: could to save this movie. Don't put it on me.

1559
01:28:17,640 --> 01:28:21,160
Speaker 1: And then she says a cat is not a dog.

1560
01:28:23,880 --> 01:28:26,680
Speaker 1: I yeah, yeah, maybe that's like the best read of

1561
01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:29,920
Speaker 1: that end moment is that's Maggie Jillen Hall talking to

1562
01:28:30,040 --> 01:28:33,639
Speaker 1: the audience being like, listen, there's only so many ways

1563
01:28:33,680 --> 01:28:36,600
Speaker 1: to get ahead, and I promised to be subversive in

1564
01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:42,160
Speaker 1: the future. Please just give me a chance. I'll do

1565
01:28:42,240 --> 01:28:47,080
Speaker 1: the deuce someday. It'll be great. Yes, she will do

1566
01:28:47,120 --> 01:28:50,040
Speaker 1: the deuce, at least for me. Now, I see this

1567
01:28:50,080 --> 01:28:52,439
Speaker 1: movie as like her movie. I see it as like

1568
01:28:52,479 --> 01:28:55,320
Speaker 1: a thing that made her. It helped her career, and

1569
01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:57,479
Speaker 1: it's great when you look at sort of what she's

1570
01:28:57,520 --> 01:29:00,360
Speaker 1: done and as an actress. But if I were to

1571
01:29:00,400 --> 01:29:05,320
Speaker 1: like teach a class on sexuality and good representations of

1572
01:29:05,400 --> 01:29:09,920
Speaker 1: b D s M, I would not include it. No, No,

1573
01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:15,880
Speaker 1: I mean I appreciate media that attempts to normalize things

1574
01:29:15,960 --> 01:29:20,640
Speaker 1: that are widely misunderstood by you know, the general population,

1575
01:29:20,760 --> 01:29:24,000
Speaker 1: as like b D s M still is, I think,

1576
01:29:24,520 --> 01:29:29,599
Speaker 1: but like with Secretary, we weren't there with it being

1577
01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:35,880
Speaker 1: represented responsibly on the grounds. Especially again that like, there

1578
01:29:36,040 --> 01:29:39,080
Speaker 1: is a full on assault that happens, and it is

1579
01:29:39,160 --> 01:29:41,880
Speaker 1: framed by the movie as no, this is just the

1580
01:29:41,920 --> 01:29:45,640
Speaker 1: start of this dom sub relationship, and it's like, no,

1581
01:29:45,880 --> 01:29:48,720
Speaker 1: that is not what happens. That's just a girl who

1582
01:29:48,800 --> 01:29:51,720
Speaker 1: got spanked and did not know what a subdom relationship

1583
01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:56,559
Speaker 1: even was yet right right, and did not consent to

1584
01:29:56,640 --> 01:29:59,880
Speaker 1: it again, like nothing about what he was going to

1585
01:30:00,080 --> 01:30:04,040
Speaker 1: do had been previously discussed or agreed upon. And the

1586
01:30:04,120 --> 01:30:07,559
Speaker 1: power dynamic of like, I mean, you know, it's not

1587
01:30:07,760 --> 01:30:11,320
Speaker 1: like a manufactured B D s M power dynamic. It

1588
01:30:11,400 --> 01:30:14,760
Speaker 1: is a real power dynamic. He controls her income and

1589
01:30:14,880 --> 01:30:19,240
Speaker 1: takes it away, and like there's just so much actually

1590
01:30:19,280 --> 01:30:22,559
Speaker 1: fucked up stuff happening. Oh my god, I forgot about.

1591
01:30:22,600 --> 01:30:26,720
Speaker 1: The most annoying part is like her mom take like

1592
01:30:26,760 --> 01:30:29,200
Speaker 1: picks her up and waits outside the office for her

1593
01:30:29,240 --> 01:30:31,360
Speaker 1: to get off work all the time, and then finally

1594
01:30:31,400 --> 01:30:34,679
Speaker 1: one day, James Spader's character is like, you're gonna walk

1595
01:30:34,760 --> 01:30:38,040
Speaker 1: home from now on by yourself, and she does it,

1596
01:30:38,120 --> 01:30:41,080
Speaker 1: and she's like, I felt like I was walking for

1597
01:30:41,120 --> 01:30:44,760
Speaker 1: the first time, and I was like, like, you know,

1598
01:30:45,600 --> 01:30:47,760
Speaker 1: you needed a man to tell you you could go

1599
01:30:47,800 --> 01:30:52,040
Speaker 1: on a walk. Yes, she needed this man to tell

1600
01:30:52,120 --> 01:30:55,200
Speaker 1: her to do so many things, and it's like not that,

1601
01:30:55,439 --> 01:30:58,400
Speaker 1: like I don't know, like you know, it just doesn't work.

1602
01:30:58,520 --> 01:31:01,439
Speaker 1: It just doesn't work, and it never and just like

1603
01:31:01,479 --> 01:31:05,000
Speaker 1: the very specific detail of she has just gotten out

1604
01:31:05,040 --> 01:31:10,559
Speaker 1: of like an extended stay in the hospital for self harm,

1605
01:31:10,760 --> 01:31:14,240
Speaker 1: like that is never really referenced again. It's just kind

1606
01:31:14,240 --> 01:31:17,599
Speaker 1: of used as a convenient like there's a whole other

1607
01:31:17,720 --> 01:31:19,760
Speaker 1: set of like you're going through a lot when you

1608
01:31:19,800 --> 01:31:21,759
Speaker 1: get out of a situation like that. But she doesn't

1609
01:31:21,800 --> 01:31:25,080
Speaker 1: seem to really yeah, at least on screen, doesn't seem

1610
01:31:25,160 --> 01:31:27,120
Speaker 1: to process it at all. It never seems to click.

1611
01:31:27,160 --> 01:31:29,439
Speaker 1: It's never like her parents are like and then her

1612
01:31:29,479 --> 01:31:32,280
Speaker 1: parents seemed cool that the newspapers are there when she's

1613
01:31:32,320 --> 01:31:35,080
Speaker 1: having what could be described as a mental breakdown, but

1614
01:31:35,160 --> 01:31:38,000
Speaker 1: they don't call it her old therapist. They're not like

1615
01:31:39,160 --> 01:31:43,240
Speaker 1: we should like call her old hospital and see if

1616
01:31:43,280 --> 01:31:47,599
Speaker 1: they can get someone over here. Right. It's very confusing

1617
01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:49,720
Speaker 1: because at the beginning, he's seen as saying he like

1618
01:31:49,800 --> 01:31:53,639
Speaker 1: says to her like, if you ever need help with anything,

1619
01:31:53,880 --> 01:31:56,120
Speaker 1: like call me, I'll do my best to help you,

1620
01:31:56,880 --> 01:31:59,360
Speaker 1: Like where do you go? Yeah, and then he doesn't

1621
01:31:59,439 --> 01:32:01,840
Speaker 1: and then we don't see Yeah, they just like bring

1622
01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:03,920
Speaker 1: in all these people who are like maybe you should

1623
01:32:03,960 --> 01:32:08,920
Speaker 1: read about feminism, dummy, which like a weird way for

1624
01:32:08,960 --> 01:32:11,200
Speaker 1: the book to be, like, I that feminists have a

1625
01:32:11,280 --> 01:32:16,160
Speaker 1: problem with this movie. And it's like I thought that

1626
01:32:16,240 --> 01:32:20,200
Speaker 1: was a very kind of like funny two two passive aggressive, like, ah,

1627
01:32:20,680 --> 01:32:25,280
Speaker 1: this woman without middle part and like is giving a

1628
01:32:25,320 --> 01:32:29,200
Speaker 1: lot of books. She doesn't get it. She's just angry.

1629
01:32:29,920 --> 01:32:33,280
Speaker 1: She's so mad and we don't know why. And there

1630
01:32:33,320 --> 01:32:35,519
Speaker 1: I mean, and she's in it for all of two

1631
01:32:35,560 --> 01:32:37,599
Speaker 1: I mean literally to see and she's in the scene

1632
01:32:37,600 --> 01:32:40,559
Speaker 1: where she stomps on the jacket and then she shows

1633
01:32:40,600 --> 01:32:42,200
Speaker 1: up at the end to say he was actually a

1634
01:32:42,240 --> 01:32:46,840
Speaker 1: genius the whole time. Um, And what her name is, Trisha?

1635
01:32:47,080 --> 01:32:51,360
Speaker 1: Is that right? Um? Sounds about right? But even she,

1636
01:32:51,479 --> 01:32:55,280
Speaker 1: I mean, that is such a quickly written like shrew,

1637
01:32:55,400 --> 01:32:59,920
Speaker 1: shrew shrew. Seeing that she is there to sort of

1638
01:33:00,040 --> 01:33:02,479
Speaker 1: in part. Maybe she's the only person to use b

1639
01:33:02,600 --> 01:33:07,439
Speaker 1: DSM like vocabulary in the entire movie. And then we're like,

1640
01:33:07,439 --> 01:33:11,640
Speaker 1: but we hate her, but she also thinks he's a genius,

1641
01:33:11,680 --> 01:33:14,679
Speaker 1: but who even is she? And I think it would

1642
01:33:14,680 --> 01:33:17,080
Speaker 1: have been cool if she had, like if she had

1643
01:33:17,120 --> 01:33:20,439
Speaker 1: been his dumb if we'd actually seen like that's like

1644
01:33:20,560 --> 01:33:23,240
Speaker 1: why they got divorced or like that, like he at

1645
01:33:23,320 --> 01:33:26,640
Speaker 1: least had been in a b DSM relationship before, and

1646
01:33:26,720 --> 01:33:30,280
Speaker 1: maybe some of his difficulties with Lee, Yeah, with Lee

1647
01:33:30,360 --> 01:33:32,760
Speaker 1: is like now that he's in the dom position, he

1648
01:33:32,800 --> 01:33:35,519
Speaker 1: feels bad about torturings. Like if there was any sort

1649
01:33:35,600 --> 01:33:38,840
Speaker 1: of context like that, we could have maybe felt bad

1650
01:33:38,920 --> 01:33:42,320
Speaker 1: for Mr Gray or like seen where he was coming from.

1651
01:33:42,320 --> 01:33:46,360
Speaker 1: But instead it's just like, why why are you so

1652
01:33:46,439 --> 01:33:49,519
Speaker 1: upset with this thing that you have done before? Wait?

1653
01:33:49,520 --> 01:33:51,760
Speaker 1: Why are you upset that you're into B D S M?

1654
01:33:51,760 --> 01:33:54,080
Speaker 1: Like why do you have all of these Why did

1655
01:33:54,120 --> 01:33:57,280
Speaker 1: you have you invested so much money? Though? Then why

1656
01:33:57,320 --> 01:34:00,800
Speaker 1: are you putting their saddles cost so much money? There

1657
01:34:00,840 --> 01:34:03,680
Speaker 1: are a lot of money and it looks like a

1658
01:34:03,760 --> 01:34:06,639
Speaker 1: nice one and he has a whole grass bed table

1659
01:34:06,840 --> 01:34:09,840
Speaker 1: that in like also that bathtub was very nice. And

1660
01:34:09,880 --> 01:34:16,200
Speaker 1: I guess above his office he did home. I don't know.

1661
01:34:16,320 --> 01:34:22,400
Speaker 1: He just carries her upstairs, that's truely does just pick her? Yeah,

1662
01:34:23,200 --> 01:34:26,760
Speaker 1: that makes me laugh. It's I mean that dress should

1663
01:34:26,800 --> 01:34:30,120
Speaker 1: be covered in poop and it should just be a

1664
01:34:30,200 --> 01:34:33,000
Speaker 1: more to do. They start framing her letters with like

1665
01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:35,519
Speaker 1: spelling mistakes and like put him along the wall like

1666
01:34:35,600 --> 01:34:40,120
Speaker 1: a sexy bank wallers and homage. Yeah, which I was

1667
01:34:40,200 --> 01:34:43,720
Speaker 1: just like, people not come into your office often that

1668
01:34:43,800 --> 01:34:46,360
Speaker 1: you two can just like hang your kinks on the wall.

1669
01:34:46,720 --> 01:34:51,840
Speaker 1: Does he have any clients. Um, yeah, well, I mean

1670
01:34:52,320 --> 01:34:56,360
Speaker 1: I'm pulling from again our favorite scholarly journal Wikipedia here.

1671
01:34:56,479 --> 01:35:02,040
Speaker 1: But the director, Steven Shaneberg, has had said that he

1672
01:35:02,160 --> 01:35:04,360
Speaker 1: wanted to make this movie because he wanted to show

1673
01:35:04,760 --> 01:35:08,479
Speaker 1: that b D s M relationships can be normal, and

1674
01:35:08,520 --> 01:35:12,720
Speaker 1: that he was inspired by the film My Beautiful Launderette,

1675
01:35:12,880 --> 01:35:17,519
Speaker 1: which he felt normalized gay relationships for audiences in the eighties.

1676
01:35:17,600 --> 01:35:20,320
Speaker 1: So he made this movie with the intention of normalizing

1677
01:35:20,920 --> 01:35:24,559
Speaker 1: b D s M relationships and culture. Um did he

1678
01:35:24,760 --> 01:35:29,160
Speaker 1: do it? Well? Um, not necessarily failed. I at least

1679
01:35:29,200 --> 01:35:33,000
Speaker 1: appreciate knowing that he that is what he wanted to do,

1680
01:35:33,160 --> 01:35:35,519
Speaker 1: because there's also a read of this movie where I

1681
01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:38,599
Speaker 1: could be like, maybe that's not what he wanted to do.

1682
01:35:40,080 --> 01:35:44,040
Speaker 1: So I guess, of the options, I'm glad he at

1683
01:35:44,120 --> 01:35:48,040
Speaker 1: least was trying, but he did fail. I mean, I

1684
01:35:48,080 --> 01:35:50,639
Speaker 1: guess like that final shot where it like pans out

1685
01:35:50,680 --> 01:35:53,880
Speaker 1: and it's like, look at that these b D s

1686
01:35:54,040 --> 01:35:56,960
Speaker 1: M freaks could just be any couple in your neighborhood.

1687
01:35:57,080 --> 01:36:00,519
Speaker 1: You wouldn't know, like they just they blend in. I

1688
01:36:00,560 --> 01:36:04,840
Speaker 1: guess is like, yeah, anybody could be into this, sure,

1689
01:36:06,040 --> 01:36:10,120
Speaker 1: but they wouldn't be like these people probably because they

1690
01:36:10,520 --> 01:36:13,599
Speaker 1: they misrepresented the whole community. But you know that you're

1691
01:36:13,720 --> 01:36:16,360
Speaker 1: probably just like a like a normal woman in your

1692
01:36:16,360 --> 01:36:19,799
Speaker 1: mid twenties who likes to get spanked, and you're okay,

1693
01:36:19,880 --> 01:36:26,519
Speaker 1: just claiming that for yourself, right right, right, Well doesn't

1694
01:36:26,520 --> 01:36:29,160
Speaker 1: even have Is there anything else that we haven't hit

1695
01:36:29,200 --> 01:36:31,240
Speaker 1: on yet? I think that's all I had. That's all

1696
01:36:31,280 --> 01:36:34,760
Speaker 1: I wanted to touch on. That's all my points. We

1697
01:36:34,840 --> 01:36:37,439
Speaker 1: got into all of it. I feel like, yeah, we

1698
01:36:37,520 --> 01:36:41,240
Speaker 1: really once again and as an episode the length of

1699
01:36:41,280 --> 01:36:47,280
Speaker 1: the movie as all of ours. Um, well, does this

1700
01:36:47,280 --> 01:36:51,960
Speaker 1: movie pass the Bechdel test? Oh? I forgot to check.

1701
01:36:53,120 --> 01:36:55,519
Speaker 1: I think it does. Between her and her mother, although

1702
01:36:55,520 --> 01:36:58,360
Speaker 1: her mother isn't specifically given a first name, I think

1703
01:36:58,360 --> 01:37:02,080
Speaker 1: her mother is a present enough character in this story

1704
01:37:02,160 --> 01:37:06,600
Speaker 1: that I would count that. I wasn't sure about that

1705
01:37:06,640 --> 01:37:09,160
Speaker 1: because I was like, technically, is the scene about the

1706
01:37:09,200 --> 01:37:12,960
Speaker 1: abusive dad? But then I guess they don't really say

1707
01:37:13,000 --> 01:37:15,200
Speaker 1: anything really. There's a couple of scenes where like they're

1708
01:37:15,200 --> 01:37:17,320
Speaker 1: in the car together and her mom says something like,

1709
01:37:17,360 --> 01:37:19,559
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of you for like putting yourself out

1710
01:37:19,560 --> 01:37:21,759
Speaker 1: in the world and going out and getting a job

1711
01:37:21,920 --> 01:37:24,240
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. So there's a there's a couple

1712
01:37:24,240 --> 01:37:26,320
Speaker 1: of scenes like that. She also Lee also talks to

1713
01:37:27,000 --> 01:37:30,559
Speaker 1: the paralegal woman who I believe is not named. We

1714
01:37:30,600 --> 01:37:34,320
Speaker 1: never learned her name, but she says, what even is

1715
01:37:34,320 --> 01:37:38,800
Speaker 1: a paralegal? And then the paralegal says and then leaves.

1716
01:37:38,840 --> 01:37:43,479
Speaker 1: Also the paralegal here's her masturbating in the bathroom later. Yes, yep.

1717
01:37:43,880 --> 01:37:47,040
Speaker 1: The paralegal is used to even to like disempower Lee

1718
01:37:47,160 --> 01:37:49,479
Speaker 1: even more or like not the character, but the fact

1719
01:37:49,479 --> 01:37:51,479
Speaker 1: that he's like, Oh, I hire someone to actually do

1720
01:37:51,520 --> 01:37:54,240
Speaker 1: the work I need, and then I have like the

1721
01:37:54,280 --> 01:37:57,800
Speaker 1: person that I'm emotionally abusing on my parents. Yeah, just

1722
01:37:58,800 --> 01:38:02,080
Speaker 1: so he doesn't do anywhere. Also a quick shout at

1723
01:38:02,840 --> 01:38:06,240
Speaker 1: Lee's mom is played by Lesliean Warren a k a.

1724
01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:11,000
Speaker 1: Miss Scarlett and Clue. So, oh, she's kind of she's

1725
01:38:11,120 --> 01:38:13,280
Speaker 1: she's blond in this movie, so it's hard to write.

1726
01:38:13,280 --> 01:38:16,600
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have made that that connection. But you know,

1727
01:38:16,800 --> 01:38:20,599
Speaker 1: she's got range. She's got range true well as far

1728
01:38:20,680 --> 01:38:25,720
Speaker 1: as our nipple. Our nipple scale, in which we examine

1729
01:38:25,840 --> 01:38:29,960
Speaker 1: how the movie fares looking at it through an intersectional

1730
01:38:30,120 --> 01:38:37,479
Speaker 1: feminist lens. Again, the movie shows abuse and assault, but

1731
01:38:37,680 --> 01:38:40,400
Speaker 1: it does not frame what happens in the movie as

1732
01:38:40,520 --> 01:38:44,479
Speaker 1: abuse or assault. Instead, it conflates it with what b

1733
01:38:44,640 --> 01:38:49,080
Speaker 1: D s M is, and the movie fails to acknowledge

1734
01:38:49,520 --> 01:38:52,640
Speaker 1: all the important things about a healthy b D s

1735
01:38:52,760 --> 01:39:01,120
Speaker 1: M relationship, like consent, communication, safety, establishing boundaries, establishing trust

1736
01:39:01,600 --> 01:39:04,920
Speaker 1: after care. She would have learned this in the book

1737
01:39:05,000 --> 01:39:08,120
Speaker 1: on tape, right, yeah, and then she would have looked

1738
01:39:08,160 --> 01:39:11,160
Speaker 1: back and been like, oh, oh my gosh, there wasn't

1739
01:39:11,200 --> 01:39:14,160
Speaker 1: any of that. I this was actually very harmful. I

1740
01:39:14,160 --> 01:39:17,400
Speaker 1: should run away and not ever talk to This movie

1741
01:39:17,439 --> 01:39:19,080
Speaker 1: is just like her listening to book and on tape

1742
01:39:19,080 --> 01:39:21,000
Speaker 1: and being like, oh, oh my gosh, this guy has

1743
01:39:21,040 --> 01:39:25,439
Speaker 1: horrible dynamics, just horrible. Wow. She meets a nice guy

1744
01:39:25,439 --> 01:39:28,200
Speaker 1: on Craigslist and then they're happy. Yeah, right, and then

1745
01:39:28,240 --> 01:39:31,240
Speaker 1: and then she can go and enter into a respectful

1746
01:39:31,479 --> 01:39:35,360
Speaker 1: and mutually consensual b D s M relationship if that's

1747
01:39:35,360 --> 01:39:40,000
Speaker 1: what she's into. But the movie really does. I think

1748
01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:43,600
Speaker 1: it does a huge disservice to b D s M

1749
01:39:43,640 --> 01:39:47,960
Speaker 1: and it's community. I think that even though at least

1750
01:39:48,240 --> 01:39:52,320
Speaker 1: perhaps not so much any more now that we is

1751
01:39:52,360 --> 01:39:55,559
Speaker 1: a just like our cultural climate of having a better

1752
01:39:55,680 --> 01:39:58,920
Speaker 1: understanding of consent. Even in within the past few years

1753
01:39:59,439 --> 01:40:01,800
Speaker 1: that has lifted, and I would be curious to know

1754
01:40:01,880 --> 01:40:05,200
Speaker 1: how people who would originally defended this movie if they

1755
01:40:05,240 --> 01:40:08,120
Speaker 1: would feel still feel the same way about it. Um.

1756
01:40:08,160 --> 01:40:10,559
Speaker 1: But in any case, I think that because uh, I

1757
01:40:10,640 --> 01:40:13,280
Speaker 1: just I think this movie does a huge disservice to

1758
01:40:13,920 --> 01:40:17,559
Speaker 1: B D s M relationships because of the of all

1759
01:40:17,600 --> 01:40:21,519
Speaker 1: the stuff it completely overlooks. There is very easily a

1760
01:40:21,560 --> 01:40:24,400
Speaker 1: way in which you can show an empowered female character

1761
01:40:24,600 --> 01:40:28,520
Speaker 1: with agency who is a sub in a dom sub relationship,

1762
01:40:28,840 --> 01:40:33,120
Speaker 1: because if you understand anything about dom sub relationships, you

1763
01:40:33,160 --> 01:40:35,800
Speaker 1: know that it's actually the sub who holds much of

1764
01:40:35,840 --> 01:40:39,560
Speaker 1: the power in the relationship because it's the sub who

1765
01:40:39,680 --> 01:40:45,720
Speaker 1: sets all the boundaries and parameters. It's the subs needs

1766
01:40:45,800 --> 01:40:51,479
Speaker 1: and wants and curiosities that are being fulfilled by the dom.

1767
01:40:52,000 --> 01:40:55,720
Speaker 1: But that doesn't get explored really at all in the

1768
01:40:55,760 --> 01:40:59,599
Speaker 1: movie because we never see Mr Gray listening to what

1769
01:41:00,120 --> 01:41:04,520
Speaker 1: Lee wants or needs. We don't see really any communication

1770
01:41:04,640 --> 01:41:09,440
Speaker 1: between them at all except him being verbally and emotionally

1771
01:41:09,479 --> 01:41:12,880
Speaker 1: abusive toward her. For sure, I think that their relationship

1772
01:41:12,920 --> 01:41:15,200
Speaker 1: makes no sense, so they don't know anything about each

1773
01:41:15,200 --> 01:41:19,360
Speaker 1: other it's just the whole thing is very, very ichy

1774
01:41:19,400 --> 01:41:21,880
Speaker 1: to me. I'm going to give it one nipple just

1775
01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:24,840
Speaker 1: for the fact that it does attempt to normalize B

1776
01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:29,479
Speaker 1: D s M culture. But again again, like I don't

1777
01:41:29,560 --> 01:41:32,800
Speaker 1: it doesn't even do better than then fifty Shades of Great.

1778
01:41:32,800 --> 01:41:36,880
Speaker 1: At least fifty Shades of Gray talks about consent, even

1779
01:41:36,920 --> 01:41:40,400
Speaker 1: if it is horribly written. This did make me want

1780
01:41:40,479 --> 01:41:44,040
Speaker 1: to try to watch fifty Shades of Gray again, and

1781
01:41:44,080 --> 01:41:47,960
Speaker 1: I just really wanted to. Quickly, I googled the cursed phrase,

1782
01:41:48,080 --> 01:41:52,519
Speaker 1: whereas fifty Shades of Gray streaming, and I found this

1783
01:41:52,720 --> 01:41:56,280
Speaker 1: incredible click bait piece that someone had really put artistry

1784
01:41:56,280 --> 01:42:00,439
Speaker 1: into because it said it was basically all it needed

1785
01:42:00,479 --> 01:42:02,839
Speaker 1: to say was fifty Shades of Great is not currently

1786
01:42:02,880 --> 01:42:06,280
Speaker 1: streaming in the US, but it was somehow fourteen paragraphs

1787
01:42:06,280 --> 01:42:10,439
Speaker 1: long because I'm sure that like I've had those jobs,

1788
01:42:10,439 --> 01:42:12,519
Speaker 1: like you're kind of being paid by the word, and

1789
01:42:12,560 --> 01:42:14,559
Speaker 1: so she really just like made or I don't know

1790
01:42:14,640 --> 01:42:16,360
Speaker 1: what with the gent, but like they just made a

1791
01:42:16,439 --> 01:42:19,400
Speaker 1: meal of it, and so they said, like yours in

1792
01:42:19,400 --> 01:42:22,440
Speaker 1: the UK may be able to watch the first installment

1793
01:42:22,520 --> 01:42:26,080
Speaker 1: of this titilating saga on Netflix. However, if you live

1794
01:42:26,080 --> 01:42:28,920
Speaker 1: in the US of A, you may need to go

1795
01:42:29,360 --> 01:42:32,000
Speaker 1: somewhere else to find your SNM. And then it said

1796
01:42:32,000 --> 01:42:39,840
Speaker 1: in parentheses streaming and movies like that the news and

1797
01:42:40,040 --> 01:42:47,000
Speaker 1: you know everyone's got there there and in parentheses streaming

1798
01:42:47,000 --> 01:42:51,840
Speaker 1: in movies. I was like, Ah, Pulitzer, incredible. Yeah, I

1799
01:42:51,880 --> 01:42:54,240
Speaker 1: just I guess I just long for the movie and

1800
01:42:54,280 --> 01:42:56,559
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's out there. So listeners, if you have

1801
01:42:56,600 --> 01:43:00,519
Speaker 1: any suggestions on movies that tackle b D s um

1802
01:43:00,560 --> 01:43:04,719
Speaker 1: that are actually responsible and not centered around abuse and assault,

1803
01:43:05,240 --> 01:43:09,200
Speaker 1: let us know. But it's it's not here with secretary.

1804
01:43:09,320 --> 01:43:12,160
Speaker 1: So yeah, one nipple, um, and I guess I'll give

1805
01:43:12,200 --> 01:43:16,400
Speaker 1: it to I'll give it to her mom, who I

1806
01:43:16,400 --> 01:43:23,120
Speaker 1: feel I was robbed by the story. Um, I'll arbitrarily

1807
01:43:23,200 --> 01:43:25,599
Speaker 1: give it one and a half. I don't really know why.

1808
01:43:26,080 --> 01:43:30,920
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. I appreciate that in its time, this

1809
01:43:31,000 --> 01:43:34,599
Speaker 1: movie was the only of its kind at least uh

1810
01:43:34,840 --> 01:43:38,559
Speaker 1: that was semi ish mainstream indie Darling like I, I

1811
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:42,880
Speaker 1: do appreciate that element of its history. I am glad

1812
01:43:43,400 --> 01:43:48,640
Speaker 1: that you know there was at least a somewhat honest attempt,

1813
01:43:48,760 --> 01:43:52,240
Speaker 1: even though it is so messy like the thing that

1814
01:43:52,360 --> 01:43:54,559
Speaker 1: is most frustrating to me, and also it is I mean,

1815
01:43:54,920 --> 01:43:57,800
Speaker 1: we haven't even it's like the whitest movie of all time.

1816
01:43:57,880 --> 01:44:01,479
Speaker 1: I don't know that we ever. Yeah, that wasn't even

1817
01:44:01,520 --> 01:44:03,320
Speaker 1: worth bringing up to me. I was just like, this

1818
01:44:03,400 --> 01:44:06,160
Speaker 1: is just not a movie that black people even want

1819
01:44:06,240 --> 01:44:09,840
Speaker 1: to be involved with. I think I even I feel

1820
01:44:09,840 --> 01:44:11,800
Speaker 1: like there may have been a background character and they

1821
01:44:11,840 --> 01:44:15,240
Speaker 1: probably were like I'm gonna opt out. No, thank you, guys,

1822
01:44:15,400 --> 01:44:19,120
Speaker 1: got just it's good. This is all you. This is

1823
01:44:19,160 --> 01:44:22,920
Speaker 1: all But it's like even on top of that, I

1824
01:44:22,960 --> 01:44:26,799
Speaker 1: feel like in Lee's life and in in her orbit,

1825
01:44:27,280 --> 01:44:31,200
Speaker 1: there were so many opportunities for her to like speak

1826
01:44:31,280 --> 01:44:35,120
Speaker 1: to and like advance her own story of maturity. If

1827
01:44:35,160 --> 01:44:38,559
Speaker 1: she had just been comfortable talking to women that were

1828
01:44:38,600 --> 01:44:41,719
Speaker 1: already around her instead of like putting all her eggs

1829
01:44:41,760 --> 01:44:45,000
Speaker 1: in the James Spader basket where they're like, it could

1830
01:44:45,000 --> 01:44:48,200
Speaker 1: be a totally different movie if she talks to Tricia

1831
01:44:48,360 --> 01:44:52,120
Speaker 1: and like seeks out Tricia's guidance or advice, which apparently

1832
01:44:52,160 --> 01:44:54,160
Speaker 1: she was very willing to give the whole movie, which

1833
01:44:54,160 --> 01:44:57,839
Speaker 1: we didn't know. Um, there's this whole, there's this whole

1834
01:44:57,880 --> 01:45:02,559
Speaker 1: like catalog of resources and people that she could track

1835
01:45:02,600 --> 01:45:04,160
Speaker 1: down and talk to, which I think would have been

1836
01:45:04,200 --> 01:45:06,760
Speaker 1: kind of more interesting to me. Is like if she

1837
01:45:06,800 --> 01:45:10,439
Speaker 1: realizes at the midpoint, like, oh, this is not good,

1838
01:45:10,479 --> 01:45:12,160
Speaker 1: this is not what I thought it was. How do

1839
01:45:12,200 --> 01:45:14,840
Speaker 1: I fix this? And then she can like find other

1840
01:45:14,880 --> 01:45:17,000
Speaker 1: people who have had this experience and figure out how

1841
01:45:17,000 --> 01:45:19,360
Speaker 1: to get ship on track or like get some sort

1842
01:45:19,360 --> 01:45:22,360
Speaker 1: of revenge, And then like, there's so many ways I

1843
01:45:22,360 --> 01:45:23,880
Speaker 1: can see it going if she or if she had

1844
01:45:23,920 --> 01:45:26,160
Speaker 1: just been you know, able to talk with her mom

1845
01:45:26,240 --> 01:45:28,920
Speaker 1: or her sister and they hadn't been painted as like

1846
01:45:29,000 --> 01:45:31,920
Speaker 1: these like don't be this person. This person is bad

1847
01:45:32,120 --> 01:45:35,200
Speaker 1: and submissive in the wrong way, like you're saying, Caitlin.

1848
01:45:35,320 --> 01:45:38,080
Speaker 1: So it feels like there's a lot of missed opportunities.

1849
01:45:38,160 --> 01:45:42,559
Speaker 1: The relationship is like just generally really bad. It's not

1850
01:45:43,120 --> 01:45:46,519
Speaker 1: fair to the b D s M community. If fifty

1851
01:45:46,560 --> 01:45:49,679
Speaker 1: Shades of Gray is doing better, that's just really bleak.

1852
01:45:52,880 --> 01:45:56,280
Speaker 1: But I appreciate its place in history, and I'm glad

1853
01:45:56,560 --> 01:45:59,720
Speaker 1: that movies have continued to do better. I hope that

1854
01:45:59,760 --> 01:46:02,639
Speaker 1: they I mean, I hope that you know, don't stop

1855
01:46:02,680 --> 01:46:06,160
Speaker 1: at fifty shades please, uh, probably give it a nipple

1856
01:46:06,720 --> 01:46:08,559
Speaker 1: and a half, which might be too much, but I'll

1857
01:46:08,600 --> 01:46:10,840
Speaker 1: give one to Maggie Gillenhall and then I will give

1858
01:46:10,880 --> 01:46:15,120
Speaker 1: the other half to Tricia. Okay, but in the first

1859
01:46:15,200 --> 01:46:17,160
Speaker 1: scene we see her, and not the second when she's

1860
01:46:17,200 --> 01:46:23,559
Speaker 1: trampling the coach, I found her confusing in the second scene. Yeah, actually,

1861
01:46:23,560 --> 01:46:26,479
Speaker 1: what about you? Uh, you know what I'm gonna I'm

1862
01:46:26,479 --> 01:46:30,679
Speaker 1: gonna give it to what nipples I am because it's

1863
01:46:30,760 --> 01:46:33,439
Speaker 1: the reason why I like being spanked, and I like

1864
01:46:33,479 --> 01:46:35,400
Speaker 1: when people tell me what to eat for dinner. So

1865
01:46:35,520 --> 01:46:38,800
Speaker 1: I owe it that. That's probably the only two good

1866
01:46:38,840 --> 01:46:42,840
Speaker 1: things that came out of this movie in history. Um.

1867
01:46:42,880 --> 01:46:46,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, I do think it tries to get people

1868
01:46:46,960 --> 01:46:49,640
Speaker 1: comfortable with an idea they hadn't been comfortable with. And

1869
01:46:49,720 --> 01:46:53,000
Speaker 1: I do think that it came at this time when

1870
01:46:53,160 --> 01:46:56,160
Speaker 1: every mainstream kind of woman in a in a movie

1871
01:46:56,280 --> 01:47:01,919
Speaker 1: was so quirky and like carefree and like romantic and sweet,

1872
01:47:02,000 --> 01:47:07,559
Speaker 1: and it crushed that idea, which I really appreciate. So

1873
01:47:07,680 --> 01:47:09,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give it to and you know what, I'm

1874
01:47:09,720 --> 01:47:15,280
Speaker 1: gonna give them both to Peter. Peter, he just deserves it.

1875
01:47:15,520 --> 01:47:18,120
Speaker 1: I hope. Peter went on to like really find someone

1876
01:47:18,240 --> 01:47:21,760
Speaker 1: who could give him the love he deserved. Yeah, just

1877
01:47:21,920 --> 01:47:25,679
Speaker 1: in super vanilla, just like the most vanilla missionary person,

1878
01:47:26,120 --> 01:47:28,719
Speaker 1: just like maybe the most boring life of all time,

1879
01:47:28,800 --> 01:47:33,160
Speaker 1: and loved every second of it. Yeah. I'd rather watch

1880
01:47:33,240 --> 01:47:37,240
Speaker 1: that movie than watch any like moment of like James

1881
01:47:37,240 --> 01:47:40,960
Speaker 1: Spader and Lee trying to like have a life together. Yeah,

1882
01:47:41,080 --> 01:47:43,280
Speaker 1: you're like, oh god, it just makes me depressed to

1883
01:47:43,320 --> 01:47:47,679
Speaker 1: think about. Yeah. Oh well, Peter always asks for consent

1884
01:47:49,080 --> 01:47:51,040
Speaker 1: and they're like, what a loser. You're like, no, but

1885
01:47:51,120 --> 01:47:54,720
Speaker 1: Peter's ahead of his time. Oh stupid Peter. He's like

1886
01:47:54,800 --> 01:47:57,000
Speaker 1: asking if it's okay to get a condom and like

1887
01:47:57,080 --> 01:48:00,479
Speaker 1: spank you first, Like, oh man, Peter's only one in

1888
01:48:00,520 --> 01:48:03,200
Speaker 1: the twenty one century. They don't even know it. I did.

1889
01:48:03,280 --> 01:48:06,120
Speaker 1: I did laugh at the joke after Peter and Lee

1890
01:48:06,160 --> 01:48:08,280
Speaker 1: have had sex and he's like I didn't hurt you,

1891
01:48:08,280 --> 01:48:13,040
Speaker 1: did I? And she's like no, she's very upset, did

1892
01:48:13,080 --> 01:48:19,280
Speaker 1: not hurt her? But you don't even Ashuley, thank you

1893
01:48:19,280 --> 01:48:22,599
Speaker 1: so much for being here. This is so much fun.

1894
01:48:22,920 --> 01:48:26,120
Speaker 1: This is my favorite movie to talk about. It was

1895
01:48:26,200 --> 01:48:29,320
Speaker 1: everything I wanted it to be. Hell, yeah, um, where

1896
01:48:29,320 --> 01:48:32,120
Speaker 1: can people follow your stuff? What would you like, Yeah,

1897
01:48:32,400 --> 01:48:38,400
Speaker 1: just at the Ashley Ray on Twitter, Instagram everything. I

1898
01:48:38,400 --> 01:48:42,160
Speaker 1: write reviews for The ninety Day Fiance and I may

1899
01:48:42,240 --> 01:48:43,960
Speaker 1: destroy you on the A B Club and Vulture go

1900
01:48:44,080 --> 01:48:46,240
Speaker 1: check those out. Just follow me on Twitter. That's where

1901
01:48:46,240 --> 01:48:50,320
Speaker 1: I post everything at the Ashley Ray awesome. You can

1902
01:48:50,400 --> 01:48:53,000
Speaker 1: check us out on Twitter and Instagram. At betel Cast,

1903
01:48:53,080 --> 01:48:56,200
Speaker 1: you can go to our Patreon a k a. Matreon,

1904
01:48:56,760 --> 01:48:59,960
Speaker 1: which gets you to bonus episodes a month plus access

1905
01:49:00,040 --> 01:49:02,920
Speaker 1: to the whole back catalog of bonus episodes and it's

1906
01:49:02,920 --> 01:49:06,840
Speaker 1: only five dollars a month. And that's at patreon dot com,

1907
01:49:06,920 --> 01:49:10,080
Speaker 1: slash backtel Cast. We've got our t Public stored t

1908
01:49:10,240 --> 01:49:14,000
Speaker 1: public dot com, slash the pectel Cast and us where

1909
01:49:14,040 --> 01:49:16,479
Speaker 1: you can get all your merchandizing needs. I think we

1910
01:49:16,520 --> 01:49:20,280
Speaker 1: have masks now, there are masks, masks and everything, so

1911
01:49:20,920 --> 01:49:25,080
Speaker 1: go over there and get one of those. Otherwise, Miss Halloway,

1912
01:49:25,120 --> 01:49:30,439
Speaker 1: please step into my office. What are you are you

1913
01:49:30,479 --> 01:49:35,840
Speaker 1: calling me? Said? Spick up? Miss Halloway, please step into

1914
01:49:35,880 --> 01:49:37,799
Speaker 1: my office. Okay, bye,