1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from how stup 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. Caroline. I've noticed in the past 4 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: year or so that in so many entertainment industry publications 5 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: everyone is talking about the quote unquote rise of transgender TV. Yeah. 6 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: TV is playing a huge role in the representation of 7 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: trans people, and it's it's kind of been incredible to 8 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: watch because you know, when you and I were growing up, 9 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: Kristen um Ellen came out on television as a lesbian. 10 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: That was a huge deal pop culturally, but it seemed 11 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: to really take a long time for similarly positive or 12 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: just sort of socially acceptable representations of lesbians and LGBT 13 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: characters in general to sort of follow suit. But it 14 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: seems stiffer with trans characters. I mean, like you said, 15 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: in the past year two, trans representation and the discussion 16 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: of that representation has really exploded. Yeah. For instance, laver 17 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: and Cox has been on the cover of Time magazine, 18 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: more recently on the cover of Variety magazine. She's had 19 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: photo spreads in publications like Allure, um Janet Mock has 20 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: been in a number of places. She has her own 21 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: show on MSNBC. UM, you have Jeffrey Tamber who is 22 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: not a transgender man but portrays uh sis genderman transitioning 23 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: to transgender woman on the Amazon show Transparent, and he 24 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: won an Emmy for that. And it does seem like 25 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: everywhere we turn, we're seeing coverage of some sort or 26 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: new projects in the Hollywood pipeline focusing on these kinds 27 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: of stories. And as we're going to talk about this week, 28 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: even though we are yes seeing more and more transgender visibility, 29 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that the fight is over. That doesn't 30 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: mean that these stories are being told in a completely 31 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: non problematic way. Um. But it does signal that we 32 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 1: have come far, especially when we look back at the 33 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,119 Speaker 1: pop cultural history of trans characters, which if we look 34 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: at lgbt Q characters in pop culture history period, you 35 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: take it back a couple of decades or even you know, 36 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: a handful of years, and it's not so kind or 37 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: even humanizing. And this is something that Julius Serrano writes 38 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,959 Speaker 1: about in her two thousand seven book Whipping Girl, when 39 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: she notes how trans characters are often stereotyped in one 40 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: of two primary ways as either being deceptive a lot 41 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: of the crying game or pitiable to the point of 42 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 1: looking like hapless cross dressers. That's where we get into 43 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: the transgender as a punchline territory. Right. That reminds me, 44 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: I mean, going way back. That reminds me of mash 45 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: and the character who cross dresses on the show. And 46 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: it's just like, there's just this weird thing about this guy. 47 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: We're not really sure what's up with him, But isn't 48 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 1: it funny that a guy would want to wear a 49 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: lady's dress? Right exactly? And I mean there are a 50 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: couple of common tropes surrounding trans characters. Of course, you've 51 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: got the villain or the murderer. We saw this on 52 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: the show C s I, which featured a trans serial killer. 53 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: We also saw Michael Caine's depiction in the movie Dressed 54 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: to Kill. There's also, of course, like we just mentioned, 55 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: the playing a trans character just for the comedy aspect, 56 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: or a farce, usually with cross dressing men like in 57 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: the show Bosom Buddies, which, to be clear, cross dressing 58 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: is not the same thing as transgender, but pop culture 59 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: has certainly conflated the two. Um and then you finally 60 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: get to the tragic character, hence seeing so many transgender 61 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: sex workers on shows like Law and Order and Sons 62 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: of Anarchy. Laverne Cox played a number of sex workers 63 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: before her big break. She also had a number of 64 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: bit roles on Lawn Order, as it seems like most 65 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: A list stars at some point have a bit part 66 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: on Law and Order. I know, I love going back 67 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: and watching those old episodes and just parking in front 68 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: of the TV all day, honestly, but yeah, you will 69 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: see some incredible, some incredible star studed episodes. But anyway, 70 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: there were some early highlights regarding trans characters on TV. 71 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: It's not all bad news necessarily. If you look back 72 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: to a nineteen seventy seven episode of The Jefferson's, for instance, 73 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: they featured an actually sympathetic trans woman character whom George 74 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: Jefferson was in the Navy with. And and it actually 75 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: portrays this woman as you know, like I saw a 76 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,239 Speaker 1: sympathetic character, someone who's not to be pitied or feared. Yeah, 77 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: and and certainly this character of e d who comes 78 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 1: on one show is still use a little bit to 79 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: get laughs. I mean The Jefferson's is a comedy. It's 80 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: used to propel George Jefferson's plotline in the show. But 81 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: all of the blog analyzes that I read about this 82 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 1: episode praise it overall, saying that hey, in seven this 83 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: was a pretty big deal. And then not so surprisingly, 84 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: if you've listened to our episode on the Golden Girls, 85 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: there was a Golden Girls episode featuring a trans mail character, 86 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: Gil Kessler. And again, this is on a sitcom, It's 87 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 1: partially used for laughs. Dorothy in particular can't entirely wrap 88 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: her head around Gil, but ultimately Gil again is treated 89 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: as a sympathetic person, more of a human than just 90 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: a prop right, And honestly, I think more of that 91 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: plotline revolves around blanches sexuality, and if Blanches sleeping around, 92 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: then it does on Gil Kessler's sexual orientation, sexuality, any 93 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: of that. And so then in nineteen we get Olympia 94 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: Dukakis starring as Mrs Madrigal in Tales of the City, 95 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 1: and the show has a detailed narrative and backstory for 96 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: this character that doesn't necessarily exclusively revolve around her gender identity. Yeah, 97 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: and Caroline, this took me back to my post college 98 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: days when I first moved to Atlanta and I was 99 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 1: living alone. I didn't really know anybody. And there was 100 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: the solid month when my nightly routine was to come 101 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,239 Speaker 1: home watch Tales of the City, which I had checked 102 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: out from the library, Friends and Trader Joe's Popsicles. At 103 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: the time, it was a little depressing, but I look 104 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: back on it now is with with fondness. I love 105 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: imagining Kristen just sitting there eating popsicles in the dark, 106 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: watching by the glow of the television screen. Well, to 107 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: be fair, Caroline, there there was at least one light on, 108 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: the light of Mrs Madrigal. Yes, and a fun fact, 109 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: I was also living with a cat at the time 110 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: named fancy Pants. So it wasn't just me in the apartment. Well, 111 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: but it's not just TV where it's it's really hard 112 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: for me to move on from Kristen and Mrs Madrigal. 113 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: But it wasn't just television that we're making that was 114 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: making great strides in terms of trans representation. We start 115 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: to see in the eighties and particularly in the nineties, 116 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: more sympathetic trans characters appearing on film, and Glad points 117 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: to two's The World According to Garp, which features John 118 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: LetGo in the role of ROBERTA. Muldoon and John Letgo's 119 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: character he had been a big time football player and 120 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: transitions into a woman. Yeah, and that in the movie 121 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: The World According to Garp. And then you have Tarence 122 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: stamp as Bernadette in the cult classic Priscilla, Queen of 123 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: the Desert and later in the nineties, and Hillary Swank 124 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: plays the real life Brandon Tina in Boys Don't Cry. 125 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: And then I remember this is in two thousand five, 126 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: Felicity Huffman stars as Brie in the movie Transamerica, and 127 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,679 Speaker 1: I remember that being a huge deal pop culturally speaking, 128 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: I got a lot of people talking about sort of 129 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: trans issues and trans people in the media. Um, that 130 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: was sort of the first time that I, as a 131 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:44,719 Speaker 1: nearly grown person, remember this really being a thing in 132 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,959 Speaker 1: the media. Yeah. I mean, it really was a watershed 133 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: moment because the way the film was even marketed, and 134 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: when Huffman was up for an Academy Award, and I 135 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: think the film itself was up for even more Academy 136 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: awards there was. It did spark a lot of conversation 137 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: about transgender identity. But what's interesting to see is that 138 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:11,079 Speaker 1: post Trans America, it seems like much of the progress 139 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: that we've seen in terms of pop cultural visibility has 140 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: been taking place on the small screen. So, for instance, 141 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: in two thousand seven, you have Candice Cane becoming the 142 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: first transgender co star of a prime time series on 143 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: Dirty Sexy Money on ABC. She had previously played a 144 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: role on Ugly Betty if I remember correctly. And it's 145 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: around then that more trans characters start appearing on other 146 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: TV shows as well. Yeah, we get characters like Max 147 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: on The L Word, although a lot of critics found 148 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: this character be character to be problematic for a bunch 149 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: of reasons, but it was still getting trans issues out 150 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: there on screen and and talking about it for better 151 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: for worse. Um. And then you also have Adam torres 152 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: Is on the fan favorite Degrassi Junior High or was 153 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: it at this point Degrassis? I think it was on 154 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: Degrassy just a grassy, just like Share, just a grassy. Uh. 155 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: And then of course the character of Unique on Glee. Yeah. 156 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,839 Speaker 1: And this week, as we mentioned, we're focusing on transgender 157 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: representation specifically on television. You might be wondering, who cares 158 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: about TV? Why does TV matter? Well, as Janet Mock 159 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: put it so well, she says, there's a higher stake 160 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: because often the only time an ally or cis gender 161 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: person will have interaction with a trans person in life 162 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: will be through the television, will be through a magazine article, 163 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: will be through an Internet clip that goes viral. I 164 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: mean this is the medium in pretty much every person's 165 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: home where you know, they are introduced to people that 166 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 1: they otherwise don't interact with on a daily basis. What 167 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: event is a trans per person or someone with a 168 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: different ethnicity or socio economic background. I mean, TV is 169 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: a powerful medium to introduce diversity into our lives exactly. 170 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: It's how we relate to different people. But it makes 171 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: a huge difference how those diverse people through television shows 172 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: and characterizations are introduced into our lives, because if they're 173 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,599 Speaker 1: just playing up stereotypes, then is that really going to 174 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,719 Speaker 1: be that progressive? Probably not. Yeah, And to help us 175 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: get into this conversation more in depth and discuss that 176 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: importance of representation and visibility, We've invited a special friend 177 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: of ours on the show to help talk about it. 178 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: We invited our friend Riquel, who is a transactivist, writer 179 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: and really all around media Maven to talk about the 180 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 1: issue of trans representation, particularly on TV because it seems 181 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: like we're sort of in the middle of a of 182 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: a moment for trans characters but also transactors. We've seen 183 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 1: uh Laverne Cox on the cover of several magazines. She's 184 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: super vocal, she's amazing on Orange as the New Black. 185 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: Janet Mock has a show on MSNBC. Bruce Jenner's interview 186 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: was a massive cultural moment with Diane Sawyer, and so, yeah, 187 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: today we're going to take a look at basically issues 188 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: around trans representation. Yeah, and we're also going to talk 189 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: about the evolution of transgender characters on television and how 190 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 1: we're seeing them more and more portrayed not so much 191 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: as stereotypes but as actual people. And we wanted to 192 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: talk to Raquel about why that's important and also progress 193 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: that still needs to be made, and a lot of 194 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: things in between. So, first of all, Raquel, welcome to 195 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: the show. Thanks for talking to us today, Thank you 196 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 1: for having me. Let's just kick off with the general 197 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: question of why should we care about television? Why do 198 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 1: trans representations on TV? Matter? Because we might think, well, 199 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: it's just pop culture, it's just TV, it's just Orange 200 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: is the New Black? What difference could that possibly make right. Well, 201 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: I think diversity period matters on television and the media. Um, 202 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: just as we know the world doesn't all look one 203 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: shade or one gender or one sexuality. It's important to 204 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: have accurate and realistic portrayals. And a lot of times 205 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: trans people throughout history have been portrayed in the media, 206 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: but they've been portrayed through assist gender lens. Um. They've 207 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: been portrayed through words and voice of that don't actually 208 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: reflect the reality of a lot of trans people's lives. 209 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: And it seems like too if we look at sort 210 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: of the history of trans portrayed characters on television, a 211 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: lot of times it's just been used, particularly if you 212 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: go back to like the six season the seventies, is 213 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: just used as a punchline. You have Flip Wilson, for instance, 214 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: cross stressing, and it's just this funny thing of oh, well, 215 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: well that's that's all that really is. It's just play 216 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: acting in some kind of way. And then you also 217 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: have the issue of them not really being people and 218 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: characters in their own rights so much as just ways 219 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: to push other characters storylines along right right, definitely, And 220 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: and that's the thing is that, um, I think a 221 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: lot of times people forget that trans people are human. 222 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: You know, we have lives and we go to work, 223 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: and we have families and loved ones and all of 224 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: that good stuff. And we've been missing the mark for 225 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: a long time in the media and portraying that UM. 226 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: And I also kind of like in it, you know, 227 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: to characters who were racial minorities being portrayed in the 228 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: early twentieth century and out for a long time. You know, 229 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: black actors and actresses were nothing but Butler's right, they 230 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: were nothing but made nothing but literal props to these 231 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: main white characters. And so I liken it to that, 232 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: And I'm glad that now we're seeing more trans people 233 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: having main roles um and at least having characters, even 234 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: if they're portrayed by people who may not be trans, 235 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: as main characters, as full around it human beings. Well, 236 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: if we're talking about sort of the history and evolution 237 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: of trans characters, I'm interested in what your perception of 238 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: this whole issue was growing up. I mean, what kind 239 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: of messages did you get and did you interpret about 240 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: trans people from the TV that you watched growing up. Well, 241 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: the interesting thing, and it's so funny to look back now, 242 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: is that early on the first gender nonconforming person, not 243 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: even necessarily trans, was RuPaul, right. RuPaul was huge in 244 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: the nine these when I was a kid, and RuPaul 245 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: had a TV show I think on v H one 246 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: and was just doing all of these big things in 247 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: the media. But it was a safe portrayal, right, of 248 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: any kind of gender nonconforming whatsoever. It was this portrayal 249 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: again that could be used as a prop, used as 250 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: a trope, used as a joke within the media. And 251 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: so RuPaul was never necessarily a human being, but this character, right, 252 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: And then I guess as I got older, there of course, 253 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: where shows like Jerry Springer and all of those kind 254 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: of reality esque talk shows UM and they a lot 255 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: of times used trans people as deceivers, as these kind 256 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: of people who were out, particularly trans women, who were 257 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: out to deceive cis gender heterosexual men. And that that's 258 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: a damaging portrayal, right if you think about UM the 259 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: trans team who committed suicide at the beginning of the year, 260 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: Leela Alcorn. One of the things that she said in 261 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 1: her suicide and now she left on Tumbler with it, 262 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: she couldn't see what a future would look like she 263 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: couldn't see that being trans means you're still a person, right, 264 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 1: You're still human, You're still allowed to have ambitions and 265 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 1: goals and aspirations, and visibility is something that we have 266 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: talked about so often on the podcast, I mean in 267 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: terms of just how big of a difference it does make, 268 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: whether we're talking about the representations of women in stem 269 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: fields or showing like you were talking about racial minority 270 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: characters as people, or people with non binary genders and 271 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: sexual orientations. How when you were a child, the broader 272 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: images that you see in the more quote unquote old 273 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: world and the pop culture around you absolutely helps shape 274 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: where you think you fit and how you feel in 275 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: the world. Well, Matt Kane, who is Glad's Associate director 276 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: of Entertainment Media, has actually been interviewed and spoken out 277 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 1: quite a bit about representation in the media, both of 278 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: just sort of LGBT characters in general, but also trans 279 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: representation in particular, and he told US News and World 280 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 1: Report that the reason it's so important is because looking 281 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: at these characters, identifying with these characters on TV is 282 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: quote the next best thing to fostering understanding and empathy 283 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: for people. And I mean I think we saw that, 284 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: um in going back to the nineties with characters like Ellen. 285 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: I mean that was a lot of people's first sort 286 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: of introduction to like, oh my gosh, a lesbian, like 287 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: getting comfortable with the idea and realizing, okay, well, this 288 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: sort of humanizes this character that has only ever been 289 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: sort of distant and kind of far removed from me. Well, 290 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: and with the sample of Ellen too, it's interesting how 291 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: that happened, where you have the audience come to like 292 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 1: her as a presumably straight woman and she's very funny 293 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: and charming, and so it challenges them at that point 294 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: when she comes out to be like wait, wait, but 295 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 1: well and I already like her, but when she she 296 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: was a lesbian the whole time, so that means that 297 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: means that I like and lim like cool with her 298 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: being a lesbian too, Okay, So it's it's it's kind 299 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: of interesting to see that. Um So when it comes 300 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:39,959 Speaker 1: then to the these more sympathetic, realistic portrayals of trans 301 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: characters on TV. One thing to speaking of Ellen is 302 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: that Matt Caine's talked about how that representation is like 303 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: twenty years behind the representation of the l G characters. 304 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 1: Although you could also say the b where is that 305 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: We're going to do a podcast on bisexual eraser coming up, 306 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: so listening on that too. Um. But do you think though, 307 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: that that gap is maybe narrowing at an accelerated rate 308 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: considering the success of shows like Transparent, Orange Is the 309 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: New Black, and Glee? I mean, are we are we 310 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: picking up some steam? I definitely think so. I it's 311 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: kind of crazy to see so many trans characters, so 312 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: many trans narratives in the media now. Even three years ago, Um, 313 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: for me, when I was really just starting my transition 314 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: as a trans woman, UM, I didn't really have all 315 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: these outlets and media, right. I was just as in 316 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: the dark as I guess you know, gay and lesbian 317 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: people were years and years ago. So it's interesting that 318 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: it has kind of picked up really quickly. And I 319 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: think it really also kind of mirrors how our society 320 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: is moving, right, because we are to a lot of 321 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 1: people closing that gap with the same sex marriage debate, right, 322 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: and so it seems like, you know, what are what 323 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: is going to be the next big thing on the 324 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: lgbt Q front after that? Right? And I think that 325 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: these media portrayals and this exposure is really setting the 326 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: tone for for us having deeper conversations on what it 327 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: means to be any kind of queer after that debate 328 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: wraps up. If it wraps up, I'm not saying it is, 329 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean one question though that that comes 330 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: to mind, is so in your experience going back to 331 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: what you're talking about, like three years ago, when there's 332 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: very little representation of what you mentioned with uh Lela 333 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: Alcorn talking about how there were no positive representations to 334 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: make it feel as though like transgender people like her 335 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: were people too. So in your experience at that time, 336 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: what was your model? Did you have role models? Where 337 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: did you seek out kind of the to help you 338 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 1: understand like what is going on and oh this is 339 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 1: this is what happens with other people as well, it's 340 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 1: not just me. Well, the interesting thing is, and I 341 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: went to the University of Georgia and there I actually 342 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: found a huge trans community, but it was mostly trans masculine. 343 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: I actually really had a lot of trans men in 344 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 1: my life who were my friends, and that was kind 345 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: of who I bounced some of my gender issues off 346 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: of gender identity, Um, I guess ruminations. And the interesting 347 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: thing is, once I kind of left that space and 348 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: came to Atlanta. I found that there actually tends to 349 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: be more conversation on the trans woman experience, which is 350 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: really interesting. So again, I didn't really have any trans 351 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: women in my life arning out, and it's funny. The 352 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: first person that I remember being like, oh my god, 353 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 1: this is a huge possibility model with Janet Mock when 354 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: she came out in a Marie Claire article. It was 355 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: just like wow, bam, she's trans, she's a woman of color, 356 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: she is a writer, and it just kind of all 357 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: fell into place for me once she came out in 358 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: the media. Well, and to see her too in such 359 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 1: a mainstream publication I'm sure like Marie Claire, where it's like, oh, 360 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: like okay, this is just like a magazine on the 361 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: news stand that so many people are reading it all right, 362 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: right right, And it was also very interesting just to 363 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 1: see her narrative embraced in that medium as well, because again, 364 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 1: it was really validating for this women's publication to be 365 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 1: like we see you, we hear you, and we support you. Well. Requel, 366 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: you know, you're superactive on social media and you've been 367 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 1: writing all over the inner it and not to get 368 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: off on too far with a tangent away from television. 369 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: But I am curious what you think the role of 370 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: social media is in sort of familiarizing a larger audience 371 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: with not only trans issues, but also what trans characters 372 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: are out there. I would say the increase in visibility, 373 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: particularly when it comes to TV and media, it has 374 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: given a lot of people confidence to talk about these issues. 375 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: So if you're trans years ago, you could easily be 376 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 1: a trans person and be friends with so many people 377 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: who didn't necessarily know because you never posted anything about 378 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 1: it and never talked about it. But now it's welcomed, 379 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: it's encouraged. Oh, this is your life, we want to 380 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: hear your perspective. Can you talk about this? I actually 381 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: have friends now who will tag me and things and say, 382 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on this? You know this seems 383 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 1: a little off, but let me really probe you because 384 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: you know more about us because this is your life. 385 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,199 Speaker 1: So I definitely think social media has helped. It's also 386 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: given a lot of different marginalized groups the outlet to 387 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: critique media. Right. So, I remember the creator of Transparent, 388 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 1: the Amazon TV series, she posted something about the Bruce 389 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: dinner situation, and it kind of blew up, and people 390 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: from the trans community were like, really, you're you're really 391 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:36,880 Speaker 1: gonna make this joke after really creating this watersha TV 392 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,719 Speaker 1: moment for us, we're questioning you right now, and we 393 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: want to make sure that you're coming from the right place. 394 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: So I think it's definitely helped with raising visibility, confidence 395 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 1: and critiquing the media that we do consume. Yeah, so 396 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 1: not only along with the rise in visibility, it's given 397 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: a voice that wasn't there before. I mean we've seen 398 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: that too, like in so many path learns of the Internet, 399 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: facilitating these communities, like giving a place to organize those 400 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: communities and amplifying those voices that were previously drowned out 401 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: by the mainstream. So, speaking though of transgender media critique 402 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,400 Speaker 1: and it being given more of a voice and given 403 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: more power to through through social media, I want to 404 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,959 Speaker 1: talk about RuPaul for a minute and drag Race UM. 405 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: We actually mentioned this in our podcast a little while 406 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: back on Social Justice Warriors UM. But for listeners who 407 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: aren't aware of this and didn't listen to that episode, 408 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: RuPaul in the show caught a ton of flack a 409 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: while back. Now, I think it's like a couple of 410 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: years ago at this point for a segment called female 411 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 1: or she male, and also his unapologetic use of the 412 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: word tranny. So what I mean? And a lot of 413 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: people said, no, this is like not okay, you need 414 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: to check yourself, check your own privilege. RuPaul, like, you 415 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 1: need to watch your language, especially being someone who is 416 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: so visible. So what what is your take on all 417 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:11,959 Speaker 1: of that? It's complex because RuPaul and I love RuPaul. 418 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: I said that earlier, but RuPaul has been a pillar 419 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: within the LGBTQ community for so many years. And while 420 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: I don't want to take away from that, we do 421 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 1: have to acknowledge that RuPaul, at the end of the day, 422 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 1: takes off all of his drag goes home. Is a 423 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: sais gender man, and there's privileged there. And when you're 424 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: not trans, it's easy to be like, this is not 425 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: an issue, this is not a big thing. But it's 426 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 1: really offensive because these are slurs that are thrown at 427 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 1: trans women when they are killed, right, These are slurs 428 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: that are thrown at trans women when they are discriminating against, 429 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: when they don't get jobs, when they can't move about 430 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: freely within this world. And so for RuPaul to completely 431 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: dismiss that as if it doesn't matter. It is heartful, 432 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: and it comes from a place of not seeking a 433 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: deeper understanding, right, because he feels that he's he's done 434 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: his due diligence with the community, he's done his service, 435 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 1: and so he doesn't have to learn anymore. But the 436 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: thing is to be an effective leader, to be in 437 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: effect of spokesperson, you have to understand that you will 438 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: not get oppression and its totality, it's completely unfathomable to 439 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: do that. You have to continue to seek out advice 440 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: and understanding, especially when you're trying to represent so many 441 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: groups at one time. Well do you think there's an 442 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: aspect too of RuPaul maybe throwing up his hands and saying, listen, 443 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not an activist. I'm an entertainer. So 444 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: let me do. Let me do my thing. I know 445 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: I'm not being RuPaul apologist, you know what I mean? 446 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: But I wonder if that's that's art of it too, 447 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: of like, well, I don't I don't want to carry 448 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: this mantle, right, And and the thing that is so 449 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: interesting is this is very much an element of the 450 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: drag community period, right. And I actually used to be 451 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: a drag performer. So I'm coming from a place of understanding, 452 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: and I get drag as a means to push buttons, 453 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: as a means of social resistance. But at some point 454 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: you have to understand that there's a problem when white 455 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: drag queens do black faith, because there are queens out 456 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: there who do that. There's a problem when drag queens 457 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: are misogynistic outright and and totally you know, using the 458 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: B word and and calling women all of these different things. 459 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: There is a problem with picking apart other people's femininity. 460 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: I mean, film phobia is real out here. So we 461 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: have to understand and that, regardless of whether you want 462 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: to be a spokesperson for the community, you are and 463 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: if you're offending people I gets as a comedian in 464 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: some ways as a performer, you want to dodge's responsibility 465 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: for that. But we're not gonna let you do that anymore. 466 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: Trans people have been doing that for so long. We've 467 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: been sitting down lang low because we've been afraid. But 468 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: we're not afraid anymore. So RuPaul, I love you, but 469 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: stop using this term. I And I also want to 470 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: make the point that there are plenty of trans people 471 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: who have reclaimed the word tranning right, and I liken 472 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: it to the N word. There are a lot of 473 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: black people who have reclaimed the N word, and that's fine. 474 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: Let people self define as they will. But when you 475 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: aren't in that marginalized community, it's not your place to 476 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: take that mantle one for yourself. Who I want to 477 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: can we put all of that on a pillow? I 478 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: want to stitch your entire answer on a pillow. Love it. 479 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: You're not a fad And so we have a lot 480 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: more to talk to Raqueal about when we come back 481 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: next time for part two of this look at transgender 482 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: representation on TV. And in the meantime, we want to 483 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: hear from you. What do you think about all of this? 484 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: Are there particular characters that you love or low that 485 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: we've talked about or maybe haven't talked about. Let us 486 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: know mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is 487 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: their email address. You can also tweet us at mom 488 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook. And we've got a 489 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: couple of messages to share with you right now. So 490 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: I've got a let her here from Crystal about our 491 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: baby Weight Loss Race podcast. She writes, thank you for 492 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: bringing up the issue of breastfeeding is a weight loss tool. 493 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: As a new mother who still has half her baby 494 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: weight after a year of breastfeeding, it's frustrating to hear 495 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: celebrities as well as friends talk about the how they 496 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: got down to their pre pregnancy weight us through a 497 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: few months of breastfeeding, making the rest of us extended 498 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: breastfeeding folks look as if we're doing something wrong. I've 499 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: actually heard comments that it's my fault that this miracle 500 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: weight loss tool isn't working for me. My diet and 501 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: or lack of exercise must be the issue, rather than 502 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: the possibility that my body just needs the extra fat. 503 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: I've heard that a number of women hold on to 504 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: that last ten to twenty pounds until they quit breastfeeding, 505 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: So here's the hoping. Another thought I wanted to share 506 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: was related to gaining babyweight in general. I wanted to 507 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: have a natural birth with a midwife, but the issue 508 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: of weight game was brought up as a potential reason 509 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: that I may have to switch over to the O 510 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: b G. I n As a petite female, any weight 511 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: gain looked massive on me and I quickly gained too much, 512 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: prompting my midwife to take it easy. I ended up 513 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: gaining about forty pounds and was able to have a 514 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: natural birth. Anyway, I mentioned this to say that anxiety 515 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: overweight gain might be related to a whole host of 516 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: issues rather than just quote unquote getting fat. Thanks again 517 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: for discussing this and keep the info coming. Well. Thanks 518 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: Crystal for your insights. And I have a letter here 519 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: from Aaron. She says, I'm only in my seventh week 520 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: of my first pregnancy, so everything's a little new to me. 521 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: I gotta say, I'm definitely looking forward to the baby 522 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: bump phase so that I can finally just relax and 523 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: let my tummy out. From what I read, in the 524 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: first pregnancy, you typically don't start actually showing until you're 525 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: about twelve weeks along, almost all the way through the 526 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: first trimester. What I've experienced and what people don't tell 527 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: you when they're relaying the wonderful pregnancy joy is it 528 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: in the first trimester your body goes through major changes. 529 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: That's when you get all the nausea, fatigue, moodiness, and 530 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: a bloating. Your digestion slows down so the baby can 531 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: suck every last nutrient out of what you've eaten, but 532 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: you also have to eat practically every hour to keep 533 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: the nausea away. You have to eat if you get 534 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: up to be in the middle of the night. When 535 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: the alarm goes off in the morning, the first thing 536 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: you do is stuff some food into your mouth before 537 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: you even sit up in bed. So now you're constantly 538 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: eating with the added fun of gas and constipation. All 539 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: of this boils down a bloated uncomfortable to me that 540 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: everyone around you think should still be slim and trim 541 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,240 Speaker 1: because you're not far enough along for the real baby bump. 542 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: It still is, in fact a burrito. A week ago, 543 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: my wonderful husband got excited and said, Oh, I think 544 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: you have a bump already. I had to say, no, sweetie, 545 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 1: it's just gas. I was nervous about telling people at 546 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: work about my pregnancy. I'm a meddaller just in a 547 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: steel foundry, which is one of those women in a 548 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: man's world kind of jobs, although I feel like that's 549 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,240 Speaker 1: beginning to change, is the younger generation step into the workforce. 550 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: I have the fortune of having a female boss and 551 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: a female HR manager, but most of the people I 552 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: interact with on a daily basis are men between the 553 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: ages of thirty and sixty Before I shared my pregnancy news, 554 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: I felt self conscious about it. But I've discovered that 555 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: I work with a great group of guys who all 556 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 1: have their own children and grandchildren and understand the process. 557 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,919 Speaker 1: They've been wonderfully supportive. She goes on to say, I've 558 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: never been much into the whole celebrity bump watch stuff 559 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: because my thought is, oh, that's cool, she's pregnant. She 560 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: probably wants some privacy. I sure it, and I move 561 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 1: on with my life. But I have definitely noticed this 562 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: trend in the super fun, creative ways to announce your 563 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: pregnancy and all the maternity photos with bear tummies. It 564 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: makes me feel like that's now what I'm expected to do, 565 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: except that my thought is, why would I want an 566 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,800 Speaker 1: expensive professional picture of me half naked with a huge tummy? 567 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 1: Am I going to hang that on my wall for 568 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: everyone to see? Because that would be awkward. So I 569 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: am now learning to let go of what's trendy and 570 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: just go with what feels good to me. I think 571 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 1: the attitude of your podcast helps support that kind of 572 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: healthy thinking. So thank you, and thank you Aaron, and 573 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: thanks to everybody who's written into us mom Stuff at 574 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: how Stuff Works dot Com is our email address and 575 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: for links to all of our social media as well 576 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, head on 577 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 1: over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for 578 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Doesn't how 579 00:35:53,040 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com four