WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 48 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody. Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.359 you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.440 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.160 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:28.720 can make your own decisions. Hello, and welcome to it 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:32.400 could Happen here podcast about how the world is falling 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:36.640 apart and sometimes about how people are putting it back together. 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:39.520 What is today? It's me. I'm James if you haven't 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:41.479 worked that out yet, and I'm joined by screen to 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:46.600 say Hi, Shreen, Hi, This is Sharian, thank you, and 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:52.440 I'm joined today by Vicente Calderon. He's a freelance journalist 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:56.600 and they're proprietor publisher of Tijuana Press dot com and 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:59.440 he's covered the situation on the granted Tijuana for a 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.160 very long time. I'm an excellent work and we've sent 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:04.000 you what your people know about you. Nice to have 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:06.960 you here. Thank you to you for the invitation, and 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:10.319 in advance, I have to apologize for my English, because 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:13.680 it's a picture of the street and the Tijuana streets. 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:17.280 It's excellent to take a picture in the world kind 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:25.360 of English here. I'm a real original psychologist. I graduated 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:28.319 from the School of Psychology here, but I only worked 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:30.639 for a couple of years and then I got stuck 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:34.080 with journalism, and I have been here for more than 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:39.760 thirty years by now. I've been doing journalism from radio, 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:43.839 and then I moved to television, and then I went 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:46.880 to the US to the work with Spanish language media 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:50.920 twice in l A and then I came back and 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:56.840 now I'm I'm doing online or or digital medium journalism, 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:00.760 so to speak. So I'm a native here and again 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:02.560 I was just supposed to be working on this for 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.520 a while and feel like old enough to look like 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:11.160 a psychologist. Just got God on the on the um 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:17.079 addiction for journalism, Yeah I understand. Yeah, yeah, that's fascinating. 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:19.760 All right. So the reason we to talk to you 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:23.280 today is that we have seen a dramatic increase in 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:27.120 violence in Tijuana since Friday. Right, we're recording this on 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:30.600 the Tuesday, the sixteenth of August, so if people listening 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:32.560 to it later, they don't know, but can you explain 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:37.200 a little bit of what happened over the weekend in 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.480 Tijuana and then across Mexico as well. Well, the thing 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:44.919 began on Friday here in Mexicali and Tijuana. Mexicali is 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:46.959 the capital of the state of Baja California, which is 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:52.960 in the northwestern side the end of the US Mexico border. Um, 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:57.120 So we began seeing people burning cars on the road. 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:01.600 They were just ordering people from public transportation to get 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:06.680 off the vehicle. Uh not in a very so to speak, 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:09.720 threatening matter kind of way, because they said, well, the 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:11.400 problem is that we do but you have to get 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:16.440 off because otherwise because when we're going to burn this bus, 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:22.320 and and nobody was actually no, it was really heard intentionally. 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:27.040 We have just in Tijuana, we have about fifteen cases 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:33.120 like that. Was mainly public transportations vehicles or some cases trugs, 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:37.040 cargo trugs or private vehicles, but most of it were 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:41.320 public transportation vehicles. But people were working, and we're moving 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:45.360 people from their homes to their works or to want 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:48.400 to run one errand to on the other side. So 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:51.120 we began to see that this was in a very 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:57.120 limited space of time happening not only in in Tijuana 0:03:57.200 --> 0:04:00.640 and in Mexicali, but also in five out of seven 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:06.400 cities of Baja California. Nobody was claiming responsibility, but it 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:10.440 looks like it was a coordinated effort in the basically 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:14.760 the main cities of the state. We were very surprised 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:19.080 because even though we have been dealing with drug violence 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:22.720 for many decades by now, we've never seen something who 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:27.080 looks like the narco locales or blockades of the streets 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:32.400 with drug traffickers, which are unfortunately very common in other 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:37.200 cities like monter Terrey, for example, recently in Jalisco on 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:40.680 the Pacific coasts in the central part of Mexico, but 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:45.120 not here in Tijuana. I mean, I know it sounds 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:48.000 rare or strange for many people who knows one of 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:52.479 our his bad reputation, but now we never had cases 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:56.560 like this before. That's why it was so surprising. At 0:04:56.600 --> 0:05:00.400 the end that was on Friday, and then immediate the 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.640 local authorities began to explay, not only police from different 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:09.400 different agencies or also soldiers who were coincidentally so to speak. 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:14.080 We're here in big numbers and large numbers because there's 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:20.520 a really big push to put out more soldiers to 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:23.760 help with public safety and Mexico. Not everybody is pleased 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:27.080 with that because they say that Mexico is becoming a 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:30.640 militarized country and it shouldn't be because we have to 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:34.160 We're trying to be a democracy, and in a democracy, 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:39.320 is not the military or the army in charge of 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.960 so much responsibility. But that's something that has been changing, 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:47.360 specifically with this new federal administration with the president, and 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:53.040 so they sent out all of the soldiers and police 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:58.080 officers and things basically diminished. But but that time in 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:03.320 about let in about less than two hours, people was 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:08.480 already really scared. Obviously, the news spread and social media 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:16.039 and people began worrying. Also, they began seeing that the 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:19.520 public transportation was not enough because many were just came 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:23.280 to a halt. I mean, and not just the public transportation, 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:26.560 the officials of the city, but all the digital platform 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:30.600 like uber Diddy or other services. We're just worried that 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:34.040 it might be the next one. So if I stay 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:36.120 on the roads, am I going to be the target 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:38.360 of these guys. We were not sure what was going on. 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:42.200 We I guess everything one has like an idea that 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.080 this was coming or linked to drug trafficking, but we 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:48.080 were not sure at that time. So um in a 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:51.760 couple of hours every we didn't see more of these cases. 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:56.280 But at that time the city was really disrupted, so 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:59.359 they began closing. I mean the first thing who affected 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:03.800 was public exportation, so people was stranded without with no 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:08.960 ways to go to back home. And some schools were 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:13.480 counseling classes and since the students were not able to 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:17.520 find transportation, some offer places to stay and spend the 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:24.040 night on the schools. Also that happened in in Um 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:28.239 with other companies, with the Makila plants, the manufacturing plants 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:30.560 that are very popular. There's thousands of people here and 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:33.720 in Tijuana who were there also in medically, but here 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:37.240 also they in some cases have to open spaces so 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:41.400 they can spend the night there. And we went out 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:44.440 and was a lot of people stranded with no place, 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:48.960 with no way to move from where they were when 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:53.360 they began. Yeah, I saw even like Kelly Max that 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:57.640 the supermarket was classed right like the day closed early 0:07:57.800 --> 0:07:59.960 and they announced that the next day they will hold 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:03.000 the operations that they will not open so they will 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:06.640 not put in jeopardy to the safety of their workers. 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.560 I mean, and they that during Friday, we didn't know 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:15.280 what really what was going on, how severe was this happening. 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:18.840 And just keep in mind that on Friday, Friday was 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.320 the end of the of a week of very violent 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:28.040 scenes in different cities. It began in Guadalajara when they 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:33.600 were the army was trying to capture a couple of 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:38.200 drug lords or chief of cells from the uh calis 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:44.240 the haliska new generation cartel which is the quote unquote 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:48.160 newest and the strongest and most rapidly spund the drug 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:52.760 organization in Mexico. And the progress there, the dynamic was 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:56.280 very very different. Again in Tijuana, even after the weekend, 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:00.760 nobody was killed. Just one person in the CALLI got 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:06.080 injured due to burns when while they were burning his truck, 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:10.079 but apparently nothing major. So in the case of what 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:15.160 House a bit different. There were at gunpoint pulling people, 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:19.600 families out of their private vehicles and also bosses and 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:24.600 there there they were really actually located roads in an 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:29.520 effort to disrupt the operation from the soldiers trying to 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:33.520 capture their their bosses, and so the biody as well 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:38.680 were way more strong sort of speak there and after 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:42.320 that he moved to one of Gato, another state where 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:47.560 well there's high presence of Cartel Alisco New Generation, and 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:52.040 two days later we saw the worst case into the 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:56.760 aquaries across from the Passo. Texas is also another border 0:09:56.880 --> 0:10:00.480 town or border city should say that has in dealing 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:04.800 with a lot of drug trafficking caves and and the 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:09.240 things was terribly worse there. I mean they were there 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:14.320 killing civilians randomly. They got to convene its stores like 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:18.439 think about your seven eleven. The counterparty is called also 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:23.199 it's a very uh big change chain uh in a. 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:26.480 In one of these cases they just went in open 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:29.079 fire to the cashier and they killed him. In other cases, 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:33.480 a pregnant woman got killed and another one since they 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:38.520 burned this these places, the woman who there's two persons 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:41.679 who died due to association because they got were cut up. 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.800 They were not able to flee the place. When this 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:50.880 guys we were showing up there, many of these guys 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:55.960 were also yelling or screaming, UM, hooray for the calis 0:10:55.960 --> 0:11:02.560 con and Ras. Young boss's called or Sageta, I can't remember. 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:08.160 He's not Mencho, Mencho, Mencho his nickname Mencho or Saghara 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:12.120 is the leader of Calisco New Generation, and they were 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:14.960 just praising him and just saying that there were people 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:19.000 from Mencho and just they were just celebrating him as 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:22.080 they were doing all this destruction and terrorizing people. So 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:25.719 the worst part was in sadly, I'm not saying that 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:29.600 this was not bad, but just we have to put 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:33.400 it on perspective and fortunately here suldly for the people's 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.959 Fortunately for the people here, nobody was injuring those activities 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:46.160 on Friday. That diminished on Saturday, but we got more 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:51.040 cases on Sunday night and Mexically and we actually have 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:56.960 four about four cases on the first the last hours 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:02.880 of Monday in Ensenada. We are still seeing if all 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.920 of these have been related to the same effort due 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:11.720 to organized crime, or are just copycats because unfortunately, unfortunately 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:15.200 that also is happening some of the cases in Vehicali 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:18.680 that happened on Sunday night. We're according to the chief 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:22.199 of police there, just copycasts were just taking advantage of 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:27.920 the situation. I see, Well, that's that's interesting because until 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:30.679 someone takes responsibility, even if they do, all the talks 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:32.760 about like what cartels are, what that's just like in 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:35.679 theory right because there you don't know who's doing what 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:39.960 Am I understanding correctly? Well, yes, because it's it's not 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:44.600 like when a terrorist organization claimed responsibility for a vombinum 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.760 in the Middle East, for example. But here the thing 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:50.959 is now the authorities are saying that it's well, that 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:54.520 was not just one but different organizations they blame, and 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.760 mainly on Aliska New Generation, because it's one of the 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:01.679 along with this in a cartel are broadly extended in 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:04.719 the state, different states, and in this particular case they 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:07.280 can link it in the case of Jalisco and Guaguato 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:12.960 because they got information of these two bosses getting into 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.720 a meeting and that's why they reacted. In in the 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:20.800 case of Gas was different because everything began there with 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:24.840 a dispute within inmates of the local jail where they 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:30.439 are clearly two factions from the the two main organisms 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:35.960 stations who have been controlling turf in the parties. Here 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:39.920 we were not sure because unfortunately we have not just 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:43.520 one or two. We have a tree drug cartels or 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:48.040 trafficing organizations who have been acting or the link in 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:51.280 UH for the several years right now, which is the 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.920 Realiskan New generation, the one we talked about, which is 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:58.360 the relatively newest organization they seen. A long cartel who 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:00.959 has been from the cradle of drug African Mexico steps 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.920 in Alloa, expanding the routes that I'm sure they know. 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:08.360 A chapel from the Narco series very popular now has 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:13.760 been the public anime number one according to Chicago for 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:18.000 about eight years ago and now in a in a 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:22.800 jail in New York. But there their sons and their 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:28.800 associates are still operating their trafficing organization along different routes 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:32.720 in Mexico and and Baha, California is one of those 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.200 routes where they have a lot of strong presence. And 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:39.520 also the Ariano Felix drug organization, the so called Tijuana 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:43.280 cartel that is very popular has its own UM series 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.600 on Netflix as part of Narcos Mexico. This is the 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:50.680 relevance of these kids who who grow up as as 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:54.840 criminals at the border between Tijuana and San Diego. So 0:14:55.400 --> 0:15:00.800 we nobody has claimed responsibility UM as in other cases, 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:04.640 but I think it's it's it's safe to know that 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:08.160 these are the main suspects in the case of Tiquana. 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:12.720 It's also the possibility that the field between these three 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:19.240 organizations um was an excuse for this level of violence. 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.640 I mean, everybody is trying to be the strongest force, 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:27.160 so they challenge themselves not on this not only in 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:31.160 the streets, but on social media. And this was also 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:34.360 a way to challenge the authorities because even though the 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:39.960 authorities reacted quickly kind of subdue more or frustrate more events, 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:43.160 they were able to burn fifteen cars at the end 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:45.600 of the week, and we're thirty six in different areas 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:49.400 in different cities. So that is not something that you 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:54.800 can say another authorities. The military chief of the country saying, 0:15:55.200 --> 0:16:00.800 well with in Tijuana didn't attempted against so the civilians, 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:03.880 well they did. They didn't kill them, but they burned 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:07.920 their property and they disrupted the whole operation. So we 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:11.520 are also seeing very carefully the way they local, the 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:16.320 local and national authorities are reacting because we were lucky now, 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.920 but this is probably will happen again if there's not 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:25.440 a really strong response from an intelligent response from the authorities. Yeah, okay, 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:27.760 I'm sorry if I'm sorry if this is silly, but 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:31.200 is there any deeper meeting to it being specifically public 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:34.640 transportation like it just seems so specific to like target 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:40.000 how civilians are like transporting themselves. It's just like a 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.200 show of power to be like We're going to make 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.680 everyone freeze, or there is there any deeper meaning to 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.560 like what they're targeting, not that I understand so far. 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:53.440 I mean for me right now is because as they did, 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:57.840 they were successful and bringing the city to a halt. 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.800 I mean we went out and just think this was 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:05.320 a Friday summer night in a revolution. Who has seen 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:09.560 a renaissance the last for the last ten years. There's 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.000 a lot of people coming from the U. S Side 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:16.840 and from Mexico to enjoy the gastronomy, local the bars, 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:21.440 the party scene, what's dead. The only people we were 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:26.919 found we found there Friday night was UM workers that 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:29.720 were not able to find an uber or the uber 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:33.639 was I talked to some of the uber drivers, the 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:38.320 did drivers. To me, it went from one to seven. 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:42.320 I mean something will cost you ten dollars were costing 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:46.080 the press was now seven seventy dollars due to the 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:50.880 high demand and poor offer. So no, I don't find 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:55.600 another another explanations so far, so far with the information 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:59.199 that we have until now, um that could explain, but 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:04.119 they did reach a big impact with the relatively easy 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:10.720 actions after all these coordinator the attacks. Yeah, it's probably 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:15.520 worth mentioning the context of in one of goose months 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:19.800 kids was arrested and I believe eighteen I'm not going 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:24.399 to dates, but around then, and there was a huge, 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:28.560 huge increase in violence immediately following that, right and eventually 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:33.680 amblow the president gave the order to release him and 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:36.280 oh that was yeah, that was my recent was a 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:39.800 video one of the main sons in in something that 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:44.159 we call the Kulia is the name of the city, 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:47.119 is the capital of the status. As we said, I 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:50.080 have probably my mother is from Sinaloa and some people 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:52.840 from sin offender when we said that it's a cradle 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.879 of drug trafficking in Mexico because most of the power, 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.800 the law, the drug laws come from from from Sinaloa. 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:02.480 But yeah, you're right, you're right. Uh, And that's something 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:06.879 that has become a big recurrent topic when people criticize, 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:13.200 especially the political opposition the current president, because they said, 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:18.840 this is the origin of this kind of demonstrations. So 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:22.800 when when when the government wants to act. Now the 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:26.920 criminals know that an effort a coordinated effort to get 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:30.119 out on the streets and to show their muscle, could 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:34.600 um make the government to think twice, to hold their 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:38.280 operation and to free in some cases these guys. Again, 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:41.800 in the case of Jalisco, they were on the way, 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:45.560 according to the official statement from the Mexican Army, to 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.840 try to capture these two leaders. But didn't happen. I mean, 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:54.719 the criminals get organized to blockade the actions of the authorities. 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:58.000 In the case of Iquana, we were not. We didn't 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:01.560 get to that point. Was more like there's also one 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:05.400 theory which says that the local chapter or to speak 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:08.879 of the cat as I was just trying to replicate 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:12.960 what happened there, just to to show the force, to 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:18.520 demonstrate the muscle as as a criminal organization here in Tijuana. Yeah, 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:22.280 that's basically the two theories that a dispute between them 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:25.919 and the other one is that, um, they were just 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:29.119 replicating a little bit in a in a in a 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:32.440 different dimension, so to speak, what happened in just to 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:36.040 tell them, you know the same here, this is what 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:38.320 you're gonna be facing. And that was a message for 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:42.879 the authorities. Yeah, I saw a resident compared to what 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:45.119 it was like in the early stages of COVID, like 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:47.920 how ghost town it was, and I mean, what do 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:50.360 you think about it? That's pretty powerful if a cartel 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:54.240 can have the impact of a pandemic, if not more so, 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:58.879 it's it's it's terrifying. I can't imagine. I think it's 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:03.080 worse when we went out when COVID first begun in 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:07.639 the lockdown. And this will be too silly, but there's 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:12.400 the red like districts that never sleeps here. We went 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:19.080 to that particular horridor. Nobody was in the main drag there. 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:21.760 But it's a reality when we we we just we 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:26.520 went out and we got video of this streets basically empty. Yeah, 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:28.360 your video on your Twitter. We we'll find a way 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:30.560 to link to. It was incredible. It was just like 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:33.720 it it's normally like the Strip in Las Vegas or something, 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:37.320 and it was just a ghost town ghost Yeah. Again, 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:43.440 the only people we found there was people looking for transportation. Yeah, 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:47.680 that's crazy. So there's been a massive, at least show 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:50.959 of state power in Tijuan and the last I don't know, 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:54.320 four or five six months, like they're constantly rotating new 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:57.720 trips in They do the parades with a big flag 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:03.040 and it's like to looking from the outside from a 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:06.320 less informed perspective, it looks like there are these various actors, right, 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:09.240 and each of them sort of flexes their muscles in 0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:13.320 a different way. And and it is that relevant here 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:16.560 has to They discovered a tunnel, if I remember correctly, 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:19.639 Have they done much else in Baja since I started 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:23.320 these big deployments. No, that's one of the main complaints 0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:28.560 of the locals organizations, civil or civilian organizations here, because 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:31.600 even though we have I'm gonna I make some notes, 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:35.199 and we have five thousand, six hundred and sixty soldiers 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:38.840 UM right now in the state of Baja California, most 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:42.919 of them in Tijuana, who have been deployed since August 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:45.840 last year, which is when the natural Australity, Australity of 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:51.920 peace as the government called it, begun. UM. But unfortunately 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:55.359 I can give an other statistics. We have only just 0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:59.120 in Tijuana, in the municipality of Tikuana so far this year, 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:04.560 i'll most one thousand, two hundred homicides. I mean we 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:08.639 as as a city, as a municipality, we have way 0:23:08.680 --> 0:23:14.040 more homicides than many Mexican states. This is the level 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:17.080 of violence that we are dealing with in a daily basis. 0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:20.160 And and this is when you hear the authorities talking 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:24.320 about a reduction on homicides, which is true, probably true 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:30.120 in terms of the numbers of statistics, but still one thousand. 0:23:30.280 --> 0:23:33.919 We're we're a little bit past half the year, and 0:23:33.960 --> 0:23:38.040 we already passed one thousand homicide. I mean, when people 0:23:38.119 --> 0:23:42.840 get alarmed in Chicago is when you are hitting. I 0:23:42.880 --> 0:23:45.040 remember a couple of years, but like five hundred and 0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:49.680 the whole year. We have this in three months, and 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:52.320 and and this is the kind of of problems that 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:54.760 we're dealing with. But you have to also keep it 0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:58.399 in mind. Last week the d o J of the US, 0:23:58.520 --> 0:24:01.800 the FBI, the d A, Customs and Border Protection have 0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:05.760 a gathering to announce that San Diego became the epist 0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:10.919 center for smuggling of fentadel. Six of the seizures of 0:24:11.000 --> 0:24:15.160 Fentonel in all the nations occur between Sanito, the main 0:24:15.200 --> 0:24:18.440 port of entry here in San Diego, to Calexico. And 0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:20.720 there's there's six parts of entry in this stretch of 0:24:20.800 --> 0:24:23.439 land at the end of the border, on the western 0:24:23.560 --> 0:24:27.280 end of the border. Well these places is where more 0:24:27.320 --> 0:24:30.119 than half of the phantomel that is being smuggled to 0:24:30.160 --> 0:24:35.679 the US. It's going through. That will explain partly the 0:24:35.800 --> 0:24:38.280 level of biodies that we've been didn't and how even 0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:44.359 though there's good efforts by the local authorities, state and 0:24:44.520 --> 0:24:47.879 local authorities, I mean, even given that there's cases of 0:24:47.920 --> 0:24:52.119 corruption as in any other agency. UM always say that 0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:56.439 we have great, very capable detectives and police officers and 0:24:56.480 --> 0:24:59.800 Mexico but there but in many cases there's no political 0:25:00.040 --> 0:25:04.000 will from their bosses to really act on on and 0:25:04.160 --> 0:25:09.119 the on the benefited benefiting the public. So this is 0:25:09.119 --> 0:25:12.159 the kind of building the problem the world. You know, 0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:16.960 Fantany is now the most lucrative drug to to transport 0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:20.200 or traffic and between Mexico and the US, even with 0:25:20.240 --> 0:25:23.080 all the problem that is contined in the US with 0:25:23.160 --> 0:25:26.120 more than one and two people dying in the last 0:25:26.200 --> 0:25:29.560 year or overdoses linked to opioids, but also now we 0:25:29.640 --> 0:25:32.240 have a problem that is growing with people dying with 0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:37.200 fantanyl overdose. Besides the fantony, the mental fantamine problem that 0:25:37.320 --> 0:25:40.639 also has been increasing the traffic here and now we 0:25:40.640 --> 0:25:45.160 are seeing the comeback of some drugs trafficking and deep 0:25:45.240 --> 0:25:49.440 and new levels like heroin and cocaine who came out 0:25:49.440 --> 0:25:52.440 of fashion for a while, but I always doing a 0:25:52.520 --> 0:25:56.920 kind of a resurgence at least in this corridor. Yeah, 0:25:56.960 --> 0:26:00.000 that's fascinating like that that there's been an increase specifically 0:26:00.000 --> 0:26:03.640 coming through that Baja California area. Maybe then we should 0:26:03.720 --> 0:26:07.760 explain a little bit about these three actors, right they 0:26:09.040 --> 0:26:11.280 c J n G will call them the cut the 0:26:11.320 --> 0:26:15.000 Sinaloa and the Ariana Felix or Tijuana cartel. Can you 0:26:15.000 --> 0:26:16.960 explain a little bit about who they are and where 0:26:17.000 --> 0:26:20.520 they sort of fit into this where they come from? Maybe, well, 0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:26.560 I basically all come from the uh people are watching Netflix, 0:26:26.640 --> 0:26:30.080 Narcos and Netflix. They talk about this federation of cartels 0:26:30.200 --> 0:26:33.800 again everything the main power was from the state of Sinaloa, 0:26:34.440 --> 0:26:40.439 and between nineteen mid nineties n mid nineties, when the 0:26:40.560 --> 0:26:46.720 rest of Felix Gayarlo they reestablished. They distribute the route 0:26:47.119 --> 0:26:50.280 and one was the one of the Pacific along the 0:26:50.280 --> 0:26:53.960 Pacific from Sinaloa to the along the Pacific, and they 0:26:54.000 --> 0:26:59.280 basically um cut the country into different the main routes, 0:26:59.760 --> 0:27:03.359 and then you have different organizations. Those organizations who used 0:27:03.400 --> 0:27:07.960 to be together became a powerful house on their own, 0:27:08.600 --> 0:27:11.680 and that has increased the violence from the nineties because 0:27:11.680 --> 0:27:17.000 now you have from the beginning they are Yano Felix 0:27:17.119 --> 0:27:22.280 who used to be partners with the chapel Uh and 0:27:22.320 --> 0:27:25.160 there are been in disputes and feuds among them. So 0:27:25.640 --> 0:27:28.280 the main one is was the main one and oldest 0:27:28.520 --> 0:27:33.200 is the Sinaloa cartel head by the chap cobusman Uh 0:27:33.240 --> 0:27:37.560 and now is myel el Mario Stambada, which is still 0:27:37.880 --> 0:27:43.400 a gentleman, gentleman around probably getting to their eighties, I'm 0:27:43.440 --> 0:27:45.960 not quite sure, but but who has been on the 0:27:46.040 --> 0:27:49.120 run for many years, but relatively calm and with big 0:27:49.160 --> 0:27:53.480 investments and with the high presence here in California, with 0:27:53.560 --> 0:27:56.720 that faction of this in a cartel, and that's a 0:27:56.760 --> 0:27:59.960 local also when after the arrest of the chapel is 0:28:00.480 --> 0:28:03.240 it's run. And the other big faction for the sons 0:28:03.720 --> 0:28:09.080 of Chapo gusman Video and and the lost chapter, they 0:28:09.080 --> 0:28:15.480 call it los Chapitos. There's like three three Ivana, Chivado 0:28:15.520 --> 0:28:17.320 and I can't remember the name of the other one. 0:28:17.760 --> 0:28:20.439 So that's it's in a cartel with with presence but 0:28:20.720 --> 0:28:25.320 mainly in the northern part and really mainly basically basically 0:28:25.920 --> 0:28:30.800 Uh their thing is to manufacturing um madam, petomine and 0:28:30.880 --> 0:28:36.520 now fanelil and send it to the US. UM then 0:28:36.600 --> 0:28:40.080 they are the Yellow Felix Ru organization who became as 0:28:40.120 --> 0:28:44.800 a result of that division, that distribution that according to 0:28:45.280 --> 0:28:50.400 the most commonly non narrative about drug world, um Felix 0:28:50.920 --> 0:28:55.440 the true that after his arrest established themselves in i Juana. 0:28:55.560 --> 0:28:58.200 They are from Sinaloa too, but they established themselves from 0:28:58.200 --> 0:29:01.240 Tijuana in the actually in the eighties. But at the 0:29:01.320 --> 0:29:07.080 nineties they became powerful on its own and they due 0:29:07.160 --> 0:29:09.560 to the proximity of San Diego and to the fact 0:29:09.560 --> 0:29:14.040 that they missed mixed with many of the border lifestyle 0:29:14.120 --> 0:29:17.880 a lad of Tijuana, they changed the image of the 0:29:17.960 --> 0:29:22.160 drug trafficker demor became more entrepreneurs and they wanted to 0:29:22.200 --> 0:29:27.280 become the main the first Mexican cartel, Colombian pabulous of 0:29:27.440 --> 0:29:31.480 our style. According to the narrative, no, and they did. 0:29:31.720 --> 0:29:34.959 They became the nineties they were most one of the 0:29:35.160 --> 0:29:39.000 most powerful drug organization in the world for the amount 0:29:39.000 --> 0:29:42.880 of not just marijuana cocaine that they were moving. I 0:29:42.920 --> 0:29:46.400 mean they established relationships with Colombian and after a while 0:29:46.720 --> 0:29:50.120 Colombians were not trafficking in Mexico. They were just sending 0:29:50.160 --> 0:29:53.120 the drug to the Mexicans. At the beginning, they were 0:29:53.800 --> 0:29:56.600 Columbians were kind of leasing the routes in the Mexican 0:29:56.680 --> 0:30:00.400 territory to send the drugs into the US. But then 0:30:00.840 --> 0:30:04.160 when this division of a new commerce and the drug 0:30:04.200 --> 0:30:07.840 trade in Mexico, they decide, and I think the rio 0:30:07.880 --> 0:30:13.120 Fas have some um something to do with that, they 0:30:13.120 --> 0:30:17.680 want to go and get the drugs from Colombians in 0:30:17.720 --> 0:30:20.080 the South and South America and bringing and just take 0:30:20.120 --> 0:30:22.720 care of the whole thing. So become their own curtel. 0:30:23.000 --> 0:30:28.000 And then then another off off shoot, this is what 0:30:28.080 --> 0:30:33.280 you call it like spinoff, spinoff kind of another way. 0:30:33.880 --> 0:30:36.640 All the of this in a log because they used 0:30:36.640 --> 0:30:42.080 to have a presence in Guallajara and the different factions 0:30:42.120 --> 0:30:46.040 were killing each other, changing loyalties, and then began a 0:30:46.080 --> 0:30:50.240 force on their own um after a big division between 0:30:50.920 --> 0:30:56.520 the beltran Leva group and the Nasal Coronal organization, and 0:30:56.600 --> 0:30:59.440 they become their own cartain on the own. And and 0:30:59.520 --> 0:31:02.600 that's we're according to the d e A and and 0:31:02.640 --> 0:31:07.080 also Mexican authorities is expanding more rapidly in very short 0:31:07.080 --> 0:31:10.760 period of time. And then unfortunately have been moving not 0:31:10.920 --> 0:31:16.280 only to draw trafficing, but there's many small groups that 0:31:16.520 --> 0:31:20.000 now are making their money. And the ole way of 0:31:20.080 --> 0:31:23.120 the mafia, the Cosa Nostra was doing their money in 0:31:23.240 --> 0:31:26.840 New York in the seventies or before, not that they 0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:31.760 were just extorting money out of local businesses, from a 0:31:31.960 --> 0:31:36.960 well established chain of stores to a little tagistan on 0:31:37.040 --> 0:31:41.520 the corner. There's also the trafficking of gasoline in Mexico 0:31:41.960 --> 0:31:45.520 and and has been doubling. I mean anything that they 0:31:45.600 --> 0:31:49.560 once they get powerful, they began to move to other activities. 0:31:49.880 --> 0:31:52.960 For example, in the case of the anothetics, keep tapping 0:31:53.160 --> 0:31:59.280 wasn't a thing, let's say, before the ninety before the 0:31:59.280 --> 0:32:03.840 the nineties in Baha, California, they were kidnapping people who 0:32:03.880 --> 0:32:08.080 owned who used to be there their associates. Is the 0:32:08.080 --> 0:32:10.520 the where's my money kind of thing, you know, like 0:32:10.640 --> 0:32:12.959 you think about good fellows and and and they were 0:32:13.040 --> 0:32:17.280 killing the chother there's everything among themselves. But later they 0:32:17.320 --> 0:32:19.800 began that they were were they were active with a 0:32:19.840 --> 0:32:22.960 lot of impunity. That they had a lot of cobs 0:32:24.240 --> 0:32:27.360 thirties on their payroll. So they began to move to 0:32:27.440 --> 0:32:30.760 other ways to earn money. And that's what we have 0:32:30.800 --> 0:32:35.280 seen now that the expanding this little as in Colombia 0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:37.800 used to go the baby cartels, we now have like 0:32:37.880 --> 0:32:41.280 a new chapters, smaller organization, not as powerful, but as 0:32:41.360 --> 0:32:45.040 violent as as the original. I wanted to ask because 0:32:45.080 --> 0:32:47.800 I saw a lot of these like supposedly like they 0:32:47.840 --> 0:32:51.240 come up on TikTok or Facebook, right, these little announcements 0:32:51.560 --> 0:32:54.560 from the different cartels, and they tend to say, at 0:32:54.600 --> 0:32:58.040 least in the context of California, that like, we didn't 0:32:58.040 --> 0:33:01.400 want to disrupt ordinary people are good people, are good 0:33:01.440 --> 0:33:04.040 citizens about California, you know, but we need you to 0:33:04.120 --> 0:33:08.080 stay in your homes this weekend. Write things like that, 0:33:08.120 --> 0:33:11.360 but it obviously does have an impact on the people 0:33:11.440 --> 0:33:14.640 who I just sort of doing whatever they do, just 0:33:14.720 --> 0:33:17.360 running their business. And so I was wondering sort of 0:33:17.400 --> 0:33:23.600 how people get through these difficult times Antijuan and California. Well, 0:33:23.680 --> 0:33:26.200 times are becoming more difficult because many people believe this 0:33:26.320 --> 0:33:32.440 because the widespread possibility of disseminating these messages now and 0:33:32.520 --> 0:33:35.880 you never know which ones are real, yes, and which 0:33:35.920 --> 0:33:39.520 ones are not. Um. I mean, you guys have the 0:33:39.560 --> 0:33:43.320 same with the gangs. Remember, like don't bling your your 0:33:43.320 --> 0:33:46.600 head lies, because then the gang will start killing people 0:33:46.680 --> 0:33:50.560 left and right. Just take that on steroids. Now with 0:33:50.720 --> 0:33:54.200 social media and and now everybody with the phone that 0:33:54.280 --> 0:33:58.240 can get that messages. And that was that played a 0:33:58.280 --> 0:34:01.000 big role in what happened on writing here in Tijuana, 0:34:01.680 --> 0:34:07.880 they were recycling a video of three guys video taping 0:34:07.920 --> 0:34:11.240 themselves in from of the Attorney General's office in Tijuana. 0:34:11.280 --> 0:34:14.799 Says so mantris here, we're gonna kill everybody, and just 0:34:14.960 --> 0:34:17.920 being very loud and and and and with a lot 0:34:17.960 --> 0:34:23.280 of insults and trying to scare the everybody the rights 0:34:23.280 --> 0:34:28.400 but everybody else. So during the hours of Friday, somebody 0:34:28.440 --> 0:34:33.839 began retreating that when was at least a year old 0:34:33.960 --> 0:34:36.920 of them claiming that that they were they were over here. 0:34:37.280 --> 0:34:40.239 Some people think this all this commotion happening, a lot 0:34:40.239 --> 0:34:43.200 of this cards burn, They didn't know exactly what was 0:34:43.200 --> 0:34:47.120 going on. Some people began to call in narco blocals 0:34:47.239 --> 0:34:49.520 that just scare more people. And then you see this, 0:34:50.080 --> 0:34:54.120 so the level of anxiety increased significantly. You have to 0:34:54.320 --> 0:34:57.399 very careful and there's also you have to also keep 0:34:57.440 --> 0:35:00.239 in mind the political feuds that we are seeing. What 0:35:00.400 --> 0:35:04.480 you have seen between some people loyal to Trump and 0:35:04.520 --> 0:35:09.400 the rebulic comparty and some people that are against Trump. 0:35:10.040 --> 0:35:14.240 Is the same here with Morena and non Morenna actors 0:35:14.360 --> 0:35:17.400 or people who likes the Morena which is the political 0:35:17.440 --> 0:35:22.160 party founded creative by the current president, are the ones 0:35:22.200 --> 0:35:26.040 who are against them and are very unhappy or angry 0:35:26.080 --> 0:35:30.040 with all these social policies. Um and and for example, 0:35:30.280 --> 0:35:33.560 we have here a television station run owned by the 0:35:33.640 --> 0:35:37.040 former governor Obaja California, who has is a very close 0:35:37.080 --> 0:35:40.480 friend of Andres Manuelope or the current president, who became 0:35:40.920 --> 0:35:46.680 a very powerful figure and due to his proximity. Basically 0:35:47.200 --> 0:35:50.799 the current president revived this gentleman, which by the way 0:35:51.040 --> 0:35:53.160 lives in San Diego and Chula Vista in a big 0:35:53.200 --> 0:35:59.479 mansion because he exiled himself from about thirty years ago 0:35:59.600 --> 0:36:04.960 when he was associated with the last p r I government, 0:36:05.000 --> 0:36:08.440 the pre the political party run Mexican for the last 0:36:08.840 --> 0:36:12.879 for seven years in a row. He was a very 0:36:12.880 --> 0:36:16.080 close associate with He could taka Laba Morta, which was 0:36:16.160 --> 0:36:21.440 the the current governor who didn't finish his his turn 0:36:21.600 --> 0:36:26.719 because the and then President of Mexico, Carlos Alina's accused 0:36:26.760 --> 0:36:29.880 him of corruption. So he just removed him and this 0:36:30.040 --> 0:36:35.759 guy Himmonia became a paria. So the p AN the 0:36:35.760 --> 0:36:40.880 new power basically mark him because also he had some 0:36:41.000 --> 0:36:47.360 previous suspicious relationships through the baseball team here in Tejuana 0:36:47.440 --> 0:36:50.799 and from other endeavors. That makes them looks like very 0:36:50.800 --> 0:36:53.880 close to the Ariana Phelix d organization. The Ariana Phelix 0:36:54.120 --> 0:36:57.640 organization has been linked for many years with the last 0:36:58.080 --> 0:37:03.080 administration because they him that that last Prnstrass is the 0:37:03.080 --> 0:37:05.680 one who basically opened the door for the Ariana Felis 0:37:05.800 --> 0:37:09.520 to establish here in BA California. So this is what 0:37:09.560 --> 0:37:12.200 we are seeing that that this messages. Well, now this 0:37:12.320 --> 0:37:17.439 guy who just left the office that the NIA just 0:37:18.120 --> 0:37:21.279 finished his governorship on December last year, so there's a 0:37:21.280 --> 0:37:25.759 new governor. But he also owns a television station, so 0:37:25.840 --> 0:37:30.319 he who is always criticizing the current governor, which is 0:37:30.320 --> 0:37:37.600 where the same political party it was uh using some 0:37:37.880 --> 0:37:42.799 of these messages with no proof or no validity or 0:37:42.920 --> 0:37:47.320 very suspicious and he was saying in their newscasts were saying, 0:37:47.320 --> 0:37:50.520 well there's also this happening. There's the threads and they 0:37:50.560 --> 0:37:54.080 know that this government is corrupt and they were just 0:37:54.200 --> 0:37:59.640 alling too to the fire, and I mean as an analog, 0:37:59.680 --> 0:38:01.880 you know, the the real fight, but to the concern 0:38:01.960 --> 0:38:05.279 of the people. And in this term like saying that 0:38:05.480 --> 0:38:08.480 all we're gonna start a lackdown and we'll be talking 0:38:08.520 --> 0:38:12.840 to what's work for talking expression for tok to like 0:38:12.880 --> 0:38:20.120 that you cannot go out, Yes, martial martial will start 0:38:20.160 --> 0:38:22.799 at six. If we see you on the streets, we're 0:38:22.800 --> 0:38:26.960 gonna killed you. There was a message that that television 0:38:27.040 --> 0:38:30.080 station was repeated once and again every day, so I 0:38:30.239 --> 0:38:33.239 was just added to So all these all these new 0:38:33.400 --> 0:38:36.719 novelty is sort of pick with a digital era are 0:38:36.840 --> 0:38:41.319 also creating bigger fires in the political spectrum and in 0:38:41.360 --> 0:38:44.320 a place where you never know what exactly the line 0:38:44.560 --> 0:38:49.120 is between the criminals and the government. Yeah, I think 0:38:49.120 --> 0:38:51.719 it's a very good thing to hide. I actually this 0:38:51.800 --> 0:38:55.080 idea that there's like distinct blocks right like and that 0:38:55.239 --> 0:38:57.239 this supplies And I don't want to say like this 0:38:57.320 --> 0:38:59.239 is a Mexican thing, because it's not. This is a 0:38:59.280 --> 0:39:02.560 global thing, but like that there's a distinct plug between 0:39:02.600 --> 0:39:06.640 like crime and media that you consume and the government 0:39:06.680 --> 0:39:09.920 and the people that like working for the state, Like 0:39:09.920 --> 0:39:11.759 like the the idea that is a very separate and 0:39:11.800 --> 0:39:15.000 the world off doesn't it doesn't apply here, and I 0:39:15.040 --> 0:39:19.640 don't think we should say elsewhere either. Yeah, it's it's 0:39:19.680 --> 0:39:22.520 a problem. He's becoming it's becoming worse and worse. No, 0:39:22.680 --> 0:39:26.640 because this factions, this other arena. I mean, we are 0:39:26.640 --> 0:39:30.040 seen it here also with the official statements from the authorities. 0:39:30.600 --> 0:39:32.719 I mean I was telling you earlier that that they 0:39:33.680 --> 0:39:37.799 the military had the secretary of the military says, well 0:39:37.880 --> 0:39:40.920 in the one that they didn't went against the civilians, 0:39:41.600 --> 0:39:44.520 and the governor also repeated that. So well here, fortunately 0:39:44.560 --> 0:39:47.359 they didn't affect that the life of the people. Of course, 0:39:47.480 --> 0:39:49.799 of course they did. I mean, we were lucky they 0:39:49.840 --> 0:39:52.960 didn't kill anybody. But but no, they did. And so 0:39:53.000 --> 0:39:57.880 you have to also be finding that propaganda from the 0:39:57.960 --> 0:40:01.520 government against the propaganda from the criminal groups and the 0:40:01.640 --> 0:40:07.440 different political legal factions in other quote unquote non state actors, 0:40:07.560 --> 0:40:10.160 just to put it in in a different context. So it's 0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:13.840 becoming very difficult. And yeah, I always say, excuse me 0:40:13.880 --> 0:40:16.640 if I readat this, but honestly believe, I mean, there's 0:40:16.800 --> 0:40:23.560 always great investigators detectives in Mexico willing to put their 0:40:23.600 --> 0:40:27.120 lives on the line for the good of people, but 0:40:27.280 --> 0:40:31.080 it's not always in the best conditions. And and this 0:40:31.160 --> 0:40:34.560 is like just the character of traffic. Uh, probably you 0:40:34.520 --> 0:40:38.200 were You guys were very young when traffic came across. 0:40:38.239 --> 0:40:41.799 I mean a very popular movie which is about from 0:40:41.880 --> 0:40:45.680 the nineties and the end of the night is probably Yeah, 0:40:45.600 --> 0:40:48.000 where were the One of the three main characters is 0:40:48.080 --> 0:40:54.120 an honest Mexican caps I. Fortunately I met several of 0:40:54.560 --> 0:40:58.760 cases like that, but some of them have been killed 0:40:58.880 --> 0:41:02.520 due to their own estate, but also others that learned 0:41:02.560 --> 0:41:06.160 to survive and play along and try to do as 0:41:06.280 --> 0:41:11.400 much good as they can um within the circumstances they 0:41:11.400 --> 0:41:17.520 are dealing with. Yeah, I think talking of good investigators 0:41:17.560 --> 0:41:19.880 who are trying to heal with difficult circumstances, maybe you 0:41:19.920 --> 0:41:22.839 should touch on the violence against suppress that we've seen 0:41:23.040 --> 0:41:27.319 in California and in Mexico as a whole. I mean, 0:41:27.360 --> 0:41:31.120 you come to talking about yes, yes, unfortunately, and this 0:41:31.280 --> 0:41:34.960 is terribly sad. A couple of hours ago, we just 0:41:35.360 --> 0:41:39.320 learned that the one of the reporters who was reported 0:41:39.360 --> 0:41:43.600 missing in the neighbors in state of Sonora was being 0:41:43.640 --> 0:41:48.160 found dead. So we have another killing of a reporter. 0:41:48.560 --> 0:41:51.279 We also saw that the case of stare as they 0:41:51.360 --> 0:41:57.040 kill poor employees of four workers of a radio station, broadcaster, 0:41:57.239 --> 0:42:02.200 you know, affeelingly, randomly, apparently random, but then I mean 0:42:02.360 --> 0:42:06.840 we I mean depending on which told you take your 0:42:06.880 --> 0:42:09.600 look too. Because there's like the official for the government, 0:42:09.640 --> 0:42:13.960 federal government from the CpG the Committee to Protect Journalists 0:42:13.960 --> 0:42:18.560 and or reports in other organizations, there is not that 0:42:18.760 --> 0:42:22.960 there's about ten or fifteen between I would say ten 0:42:23.040 --> 0:42:27.480 or fourteen or fifteen journalists or media workers skilled. So 0:42:27.560 --> 0:42:30.600 far this year we have two of those killings happening 0:42:30.640 --> 0:42:35.480 here in Tijuana in in January. Um one of them them, 0:42:35.560 --> 0:42:38.520 I'm convinced by now that he was killed for the 0:42:38.719 --> 0:42:44.080 leader of drug trafficking cell was operating in the east 0:42:44.080 --> 0:42:49.200 side of the city, who wasn't pleased with some of 0:42:49.200 --> 0:42:53.640 the stories that one of the media outlets, his name 0:42:53.680 --> 0:42:57.960 is mar One of the media outists that Margharito was 0:42:58.040 --> 0:43:04.160 working too as a freelance swer was was pullishing very 0:43:04.200 --> 0:43:08.520 revealing stories about the operation of the trafficer. So he 0:43:08.680 --> 0:43:13.680 ordered and pay for some other people to kill Margarito 0:43:14.080 --> 0:43:18.240 because he and my humble opinion, was the weakest link, 0:43:18.760 --> 0:43:21.920 because he was living on the same neighborhood. That these 0:43:21.920 --> 0:43:26.120 guys were operating working the night shift. That is very 0:43:26.160 --> 0:43:30.320 common that only a few of them are left to 0:43:30.320 --> 0:43:35.800 to do that. Chief that beat uh, he was easily identifiable, 0:43:36.000 --> 0:43:40.799 identifiable for the crooks because Margito will show up at 0:43:40.840 --> 0:43:45.640 the crime scenes. And in many of these cases you 0:43:45.680 --> 0:43:49.000 have people who work for the same organization. Organization show 0:43:49.160 --> 0:43:51.040 enough to make sure that the guy was really killed 0:43:51.360 --> 0:43:54.560 and who showed up. And and I mean even when 0:43:54.600 --> 0:43:58.960 the killing is done, the criminals are still working the scene. 0:43:59.719 --> 0:44:02.920 And in some cases we met with these guys guys 0:44:02.960 --> 0:44:07.800 without knowing. I mean, these guys were were um even 0:44:07.880 --> 0:44:10.400 willing to go to the funeral of Margarito. The only 0:44:10.480 --> 0:44:12.680 reason they were not there is because they when they 0:44:12.719 --> 0:44:16.840 approached this a lot of military presence on during the funeral. 0:44:17.200 --> 0:44:20.560 So I'm convinced that Margharito was killed due to his 0:44:20.640 --> 0:44:24.520 work as a as a photographer. UM. In the other 0:44:24.560 --> 0:44:29.399 case of my friend all coworker, Lord de Sandoval, I'm 0:44:29.440 --> 0:44:33.080 not sure what was the motive. In both cases are 0:44:33.480 --> 0:44:37.799 two people in jail, but the procedure is still on 0:44:37.960 --> 0:44:41.640 the beginning stages. We are not proved, and the main 0:44:41.680 --> 0:44:44.640 thing is we don't know who order and pay for 0:44:44.800 --> 0:44:47.600 their killings. Well we know, or I think I have 0:44:47.680 --> 0:44:50.759 a big suspicion about which one is the guy who 0:44:50.840 --> 0:44:53.640 killed them in the case of Margharito, not in the 0:44:53.680 --> 0:44:58.640 case of lords and the authorities. I'm not confident enough 0:44:58.680 --> 0:45:00.799 that they're gonna be able to all the crimes in 0:45:00.840 --> 0:45:04.520 this particular cases. The other one, there's two cases, Inn 0:45:05.040 --> 0:45:08.920 there's other cases and tom lipas uh. I guess by 0:45:08.920 --> 0:45:11.080 now we have to count at least two or three 0:45:11.120 --> 0:45:14.600 in Sonora with the sad news that we got today. 0:45:14.600 --> 0:45:18.320 So it's difficult. I mean not everybody is is risking 0:45:18.360 --> 0:45:23.680 their life when they're doing journalism in Mexico, but you 0:45:23.760 --> 0:45:28.040 never know when the danger will jump against you. I 0:45:28.080 --> 0:45:32.200 have a always tell this story about a photographer to 0:45:32.320 --> 0:45:39.279 what was called to cover a traffic accident my minority. No, no, Well, 0:45:39.520 --> 0:45:42.400 the problem is that the the guy who was involved 0:45:42.440 --> 0:45:45.240 in the traffic and the accident was a drug blord, 0:45:45.640 --> 0:45:49.520 very a very well known operator, very dangerous operator, and 0:45:49.600 --> 0:45:53.200 he kept taking pictures thanks to some of the officers, 0:45:53.480 --> 0:45:57.839 firefighters and ladies who saw that he was being um 0:45:58.000 --> 0:46:00.960 treated not very naievely, and they lay it is that intervened, 0:46:01.160 --> 0:46:03.480 he was able to get away. He had to live 0:46:03.560 --> 0:46:06.800 town for a while. Uh, that's it. But that's the 0:46:06.880 --> 0:46:09.960 kind of environment that we are dealing with. Is not 0:46:10.239 --> 0:46:14.239 that every story makes you put you in danger, but 0:46:15.239 --> 0:46:18.160 you never I mean, you can do a lot of 0:46:18.680 --> 0:46:20.880 you can be a reporter and not be on danger. 0:46:21.080 --> 0:46:24.759 Not you don't get into subjects that are tricky, you 0:46:24.840 --> 0:46:27.600 don't get too much in political corruption, and you don't 0:46:27.600 --> 0:46:30.479 do get too much on on drug trafficking, on care 0:46:30.560 --> 0:46:35.760 and homicides. You're pretty much gonna be able to do fine. 0:46:36.400 --> 0:46:39.960 But but the promise sometimes if you're doing a story 0:46:40.040 --> 0:46:43.960 none related, there may be some link to put you 0:46:44.000 --> 0:46:47.520 in danger. And that's the situation. And unfortunately, the level 0:46:47.560 --> 0:46:51.240 of impunity and on crimes again journalists is even worse 0:46:51.640 --> 0:46:55.280 than the level of impunity of general civilians in Mexico. 0:46:55.840 --> 0:47:00.279 I will say that generalists about ninety personal ninety eight 0:47:00.320 --> 0:47:08.120 percent and nine for for case of journalist civilians. So 0:47:08.600 --> 0:47:11.400 our case is worse. The possibility of somebody will be 0:47:11.800 --> 0:47:16.799 punished for killing you. It's it's very, very, very spanning. Yeah, 0:47:16.800 --> 0:47:20.319 I'm sorry, that's terrible. I don't know. It's again, like 0:47:20.360 --> 0:47:22.319 you said, it's not just a Mexican problem. You see 0:47:22.360 --> 0:47:24.880 in so many governments across the world where press our 0:47:24.960 --> 0:47:30.120 targeted specifically. Um. But yeah, and I appreciate your work 0:47:30.120 --> 0:47:35.120 even more knowing that the percentage of cases are just 0:47:35.320 --> 0:47:38.200 violence against you, so against you as a journalist is 0:47:38.239 --> 0:47:42.879 so high. It's very sad and it's very disencouraging. But 0:47:44.600 --> 0:47:50.160 I always, I mean, my I have a familihood, is 0:47:50.239 --> 0:47:53.080 not copy because I'm still working on Friday. They called 0:47:53.080 --> 0:47:55.280 me the one. They want me to stay at the office. 0:47:55.920 --> 0:47:59.600 They don't want me to get out. Um, and I 0:47:59.680 --> 0:48:02.960 under tend. I understand, Pepper, it's one of the men. 0:48:03.400 --> 0:48:06.719 But also on the other hand, it's uh, you know, 0:48:06.920 --> 0:48:10.120 this is important information. Even when we are dealing with 0:48:10.239 --> 0:48:15.240 an avalanche of information that is not necessarily well treated. 0:48:16.360 --> 0:48:18.640 We need to have good information so people will make 0:48:18.680 --> 0:48:24.520 good decisions. We are in a very small joint democracy. 0:48:25.160 --> 0:48:30.160 We just began to make in roads on electoral democracy. 0:48:30.560 --> 0:48:34.080 It's relatively recent. Began basically at the end of the 0:48:34.160 --> 0:48:36.960 nineties here in Baka, California, and has been moving to 0:48:37.160 --> 0:48:42.640 the two thousand's and now we are unfortunately back back 0:48:42.800 --> 0:48:45.879 in many ways. But but now you can rely now 0:48:46.120 --> 0:48:51.160 on who is running the elections together. That information was 0:48:51.280 --> 0:48:56.239 very important. Now we need to be also very make 0:48:56.280 --> 0:48:59.200 a lot of big efforts to explain people that you 0:48:59.360 --> 0:49:04.840 can make Mexico is making progress even in these dire conditions, 0:49:05.080 --> 0:49:07.960 but you have to pay attention and also try to 0:49:08.640 --> 0:49:13.120 to learn where the information is coming from. That not 0:49:13.440 --> 0:49:16.480 all the media is the same that we have do. 0:49:16.600 --> 0:49:20.280 We come from a big tradition of government control media. 0:49:21.239 --> 0:49:27.320 Now media control also due trafficking organizations, and in some 0:49:27.760 --> 0:49:33.360 cases both are linked and and working to give your trouble. 0:49:33.760 --> 0:49:36.520 And also there's a lot of press that has chosen 0:49:36.680 --> 0:49:40.520 to just go with the flock and just live out 0:49:40.600 --> 0:49:44.200 of propaganda. And sometimes they do good things, like they 0:49:44.280 --> 0:49:47.560 go and give boys to the people and the local community, 0:49:47.719 --> 0:49:51.960 so the the water is established or there's more um, 0:49:52.560 --> 0:49:55.120 there's no more need for to fix a park or 0:49:55.280 --> 0:49:58.880 to public transportation, and they do do good. This is important. 0:49:58.960 --> 0:50:02.160 All the the job of the reporters is good, but 0:50:02.280 --> 0:50:04.560 in the in the bigger dimension of the bigger problems, 0:50:04.560 --> 0:50:06.960 they tend to be on the side of the government. 0:50:07.000 --> 0:50:10.800 Because the government found this way to give you a 0:50:10.880 --> 0:50:15.440 lot of public advertisement and to have you under their control. 0:50:15.800 --> 0:50:19.440 And many reporters want to be good journalism with journalists, 0:50:19.680 --> 0:50:22.839 but their editors of the owners of the companies are 0:50:22.920 --> 0:50:25.759 not willing to rouse that easy way to get a 0:50:25.840 --> 0:50:30.680 lot of money from the government and more easily than 0:50:30.760 --> 0:50:34.839 to start putting themselves on the risk, which implies when 0:50:34.920 --> 0:50:40.279 you do heavially digging or criticizing the powers of Yeah, 0:50:40.719 --> 0:50:46.040 how how would someone know that they're getting accurate information? 0:50:46.160 --> 0:50:48.719 In that case? This applies to every country in the world. 0:50:48.800 --> 0:50:51.600 You have to really be conscious and like seek out 0:50:52.160 --> 0:50:54.200 particular sources. But like in this case, what do you 0:50:54.280 --> 0:50:57.440 recommend for people? I mean, it's difficult. You're right, this 0:50:57.680 --> 0:51:00.960 is the simple everywhere. But I guess the same recipe 0:51:01.000 --> 0:51:04.960 works here. I mean, just double chair, double check their sources. 0:51:05.080 --> 0:51:09.759 Try to compare several UM media outlets and to see 0:51:09.800 --> 0:51:14.560 where it's reporting UM, whether each of them is reporting 0:51:15.200 --> 0:51:19.799 UM the same way that you find the way they 0:51:19.840 --> 0:51:23.239 are leaning in the US is the what you find here. 0:51:23.719 --> 0:51:28.279 But the problem is the established media, the how do 0:51:28.360 --> 0:51:32.359 you call it? Um? The traditional media is becoming less 0:51:32.440 --> 0:51:36.640 relevant because most of the main good journalism is done 0:51:36.680 --> 0:51:41.399 by small revolves soup. They began their own entities, their 0:51:41.400 --> 0:51:45.680 own platforms. I mean, some cases there's good reporters working 0:51:45.760 --> 0:51:50.480 for good media outlets. Normally those are not local. I 0:51:50.520 --> 0:51:54.480 mean when you see the big media companies, don't they 0:51:54.600 --> 0:51:59.600 don't have which some exceptional, but they don't have any 0:52:00.000 --> 0:52:03.719 people doing urnalizing at the local level. You will find 0:52:03.760 --> 0:52:07.880 good local journalism with these renegades or rebels that have 0:52:08.040 --> 0:52:10.799 people who have been fired from the big, larger organization, 0:52:11.040 --> 0:52:13.080 and you have to be looking for those options. I 0:52:13.120 --> 0:52:15.359 mean that doesn't mean that it's a guarantee that they're 0:52:15.360 --> 0:52:21.040 gonna gonna be independent completely. You also learn how to 0:52:21.239 --> 0:52:25.080 read them. For example, there's a good case of two reporters. 0:52:25.160 --> 0:52:28.799 We just where they resigned or were fired, we don't 0:52:28.800 --> 0:52:33.120 know exactly, but they from a well prestigious publication locally, 0:52:33.520 --> 0:52:37.400 they began their own operation. They have they are good, proven, 0:52:38.280 --> 0:52:40.759 proven as a reporters. You know what I'm trying to 0:52:40.840 --> 0:52:48.799 say that they have a reporter. Yeah, yeah, I thought 0:52:48.880 --> 0:52:50.200 that was what it was. I was just like, I 0:52:50.239 --> 0:52:54.120 don't actually don't know, I don't know phrases either. Yeah. 0:52:55.920 --> 0:52:58.960 They made a name for from themselves doing good journalism 0:52:59.040 --> 0:53:02.800 with other publications, began their own media outlet, and some 0:53:02.960 --> 0:53:05.719 people was complaining that they were too close to some 0:53:06.960 --> 0:53:11.279 uh state agency with the new government. And they have 0:53:11.440 --> 0:53:16.200 great information. They do good, good um reporting, but you 0:53:16.280 --> 0:53:20.520 have to look curve carefully and which which type and 0:53:20.760 --> 0:53:24.200 where are they leaning to. So I always read them. 0:53:24.680 --> 0:53:26.920 I just take it with a grain nut sal that 0:53:27.000 --> 0:53:30.440 you will see say in English, to try to balance 0:53:30.600 --> 0:53:34.759 my intake of information from different sources. It's difficult to 0:53:34.800 --> 0:53:38.600 tell the people because they are not general The general 0:53:38.680 --> 0:53:42.239 public is not as involved or interested in media on 0:53:42.719 --> 0:53:45.960 and on the newspaper or on the news. We are 0:53:46.080 --> 0:53:49.560 because we live out of it. But people is doing 0:53:49.600 --> 0:53:53.520 their life and making the the will to move around, 0:53:53.600 --> 0:53:56.880 not for all of us in different France as a doctor, 0:53:56.960 --> 0:54:00.560 as a housewife, as a teacher, and they don't have 0:54:00.680 --> 0:54:04.600 enough time to then to analyze media the way we do. 0:54:04.760 --> 0:54:07.120 So we I think we need to do a little 0:54:07.120 --> 0:54:09.759 bit of that. Try to tell them this is for 0:54:09.920 --> 0:54:12.759 this reason we believe this media outlet is living in 0:54:12.880 --> 0:54:16.480 this direction, this is subsidized or is getting We do 0:54:16.640 --> 0:54:19.719 that this is getting this amount of money from the 0:54:19.800 --> 0:54:23.240 government and not this amount of money from the government, 0:54:23.280 --> 0:54:25.120 that that will give you a hand to take it 0:54:25.440 --> 0:54:27.400 and to see who are they dealing with I mean 0:54:27.719 --> 0:54:29.839 there's guys who have been working for the governen now 0:54:30.320 --> 0:54:33.080 are back to reports. I mean therese cases like that 0:54:33.200 --> 0:54:36.080 in the US. Stephanopolis used to work for the for 0:54:36.200 --> 0:54:40.000 the one of the presidents on the guy for of 0:54:40.120 --> 0:54:44.279 Harball from MSNBC used to work for Nixon. I mean, 0:54:44.600 --> 0:54:46.640 we see this, but in this environment it is more 0:54:46.719 --> 0:54:51.720 difficult to to live out those connections. And it's always 0:54:51.760 --> 0:54:56.040 tricky to be moving from government jobs to journalism jobs 0:54:56.360 --> 0:55:01.160 because it's not I mean you have to so. I 0:55:01.200 --> 0:55:04.080 mean when in my perspective I never worked for for 0:55:04.600 --> 0:55:06.960 the government, I hope I would never have to do that. 0:55:07.200 --> 0:55:09.920 I respect the ones they do, but you as we 0:55:10.000 --> 0:55:13.120 need to be more transparent, transparent in that sense to 0:55:13.239 --> 0:55:15.759 be able to be fair with the people. Yeah, that 0:55:15.880 --> 0:55:19.879 makes sense. There's this interesting development in Mexico that I've 0:55:19.880 --> 0:55:22.480 seen in some areas, like if I want to learn 0:55:22.520 --> 0:55:25.120 about like what's happening in the yucky pueblos in Sonora 0:55:25.520 --> 0:55:27.480 or in chapters, like these people who will just be 0:55:27.640 --> 0:55:31.880 like citizen reporters on Facebook, doing very local reporting that 0:55:32.120 --> 0:55:34.319 it seems to get really popular, but that they will 0:55:34.360 --> 0:55:37.000 sort of blow up really quickly doing this like Facebook 0:55:37.080 --> 0:55:40.839 only reporting. It's really interesting because there's a big need 0:55:40.920 --> 0:55:43.640 of information and they know many people in Mexico have 0:55:43.880 --> 0:55:47.919 learned to be distrustful of the quote unquote legacy media. 0:55:48.000 --> 0:55:51.719 The expression I was looking for legacy media, the big companies, 0:55:52.239 --> 0:55:57.719 um and And the problem is there's this risk that 0:55:58.280 --> 0:56:01.720 many of those media, you media outlets, which is basically 0:56:02.000 --> 0:56:06.560 Facebook accounts or TikTok accounts. Now, uh, the people doesn't 0:56:06.600 --> 0:56:10.279 know how to deal with I mean, they they are, 0:56:11.200 --> 0:56:14.920 they have good intentions, but they don't really know how 0:56:15.520 --> 0:56:19.440 journalists should work. And in some cases they think, like 0:56:19.600 --> 0:56:22.640 some for example, that they can take money for different 0:56:22.719 --> 0:56:26.279 actors and that will help them to grow and and 0:56:26.400 --> 0:56:29.239 I guess you can, but but you have to be 0:56:29.360 --> 0:56:32.239 very careful. And this has been a big problem that 0:56:32.320 --> 0:56:35.120 I'll try to emphasize every time I talk about our situation. 0:56:35.719 --> 0:56:39.520 For many years, the government was too close or their 0:56:39.600 --> 0:56:42.799 reporters were too close to the government. The government will 0:56:42.920 --> 0:56:46.680 make easy with a lot of privileges for the reporters, 0:56:47.120 --> 0:56:50.200 so they learned to do this to work in this scenario. 0:56:50.280 --> 0:56:52.960 So if I was close to the government, they will 0:56:53.080 --> 0:56:55.360 expect it's a lot of things for me, so to speak. 0:56:55.480 --> 0:56:57.960 I can get good money. I can get probably a 0:56:58.080 --> 0:57:01.080 license to for a bar way weaker than somebody who 0:57:01.160 --> 0:57:03.960 is not doesn't have that access to the government. I 0:57:04.040 --> 0:57:10.080 can probably get like um taxi licenses for example, because 0:57:10.120 --> 0:57:12.279 I'm a reporter. Because I'm I'm close, I can get 0:57:12.360 --> 0:57:15.600 close to the movies and checkers and the political arena. 0:57:15.719 --> 0:57:19.320 No but you. So they did that, and when the 0:57:20.280 --> 0:57:25.080 drop trafficking with the narcos became another power, many many 0:57:25.320 --> 0:57:28.360 reporters began to see it in the same way. So 0:57:28.440 --> 0:57:30.520 they were closely with the government was powered, and then 0:57:30.560 --> 0:57:34.240 we're coursing with the businessmen, and they were closely with 0:57:34.360 --> 0:57:37.760 the with the unions because they were giving them handouts 0:57:37.960 --> 0:57:40.560 or treat them them prevalently, or they were able to 0:57:40.640 --> 0:57:44.720 do some traffic of influence who will give them some benefits. 0:57:45.120 --> 0:57:49.520 When the narcos became a problem regional power on their own, 0:57:49.880 --> 0:57:53.360 some of the reporters didn't see the different or gain 0:57:53.440 --> 0:57:57.280 too close to that power, and that has put a 0:57:57.400 --> 0:58:00.320 lot of the reporters in danger. I think the reporters 0:58:00.360 --> 0:58:02.240 are learning a little bit more to stay away from 0:58:02.320 --> 0:58:06.680 those But there's also with the abandment of social media, 0:58:07.320 --> 0:58:10.240 many people who are really crooked, or that they were 0:58:10.400 --> 0:58:14.240 not very interested in doing things ethically from the beginning. 0:58:14.640 --> 0:58:16.760 That now see that with a Facebook account, with a 0:58:16.800 --> 0:58:20.520 TikTok account or Instagram or any other platform, you can 0:58:21.080 --> 0:58:25.320 pass by a reporter. So there's this need of information, 0:58:25.640 --> 0:58:30.400 but also it is filled with um with good and 0:58:30.480 --> 0:58:33.280 bad people, as in any other cases I always talk. 0:58:33.360 --> 0:58:36.080 I mean, this is the all analogy of a gun 0:58:36.520 --> 0:58:39.960 is the gang bad or good? All depends on the 0:58:40.000 --> 0:58:44.720 circumstances you are using it. No, yeah, yeah, I'm not 0:58:44.960 --> 0:58:49.080 not a gang guy. But I don't want to get 0:58:49.080 --> 0:58:56.800 into your your your political discourse about your First Amendment. That. Yeah, 0:58:56.920 --> 0:59:01.440 that's a whole another episode. Need. Yeah, that's line if 0:59:01.480 --> 0:59:04.080 you said, sure, did you have anything else? No, that 0:59:04.280 --> 0:59:07.120 was awesome, Thank you so much for all the information. Yeah, 0:59:07.320 --> 0:59:11.200 and talking of reliable media, where can people find you online? 0:59:11.240 --> 0:59:13.080 Where can they find your work? Where can they find 0:59:13.120 --> 0:59:16.520 your social media? The main thing is Tijuana Press dot com. 0:59:16.640 --> 0:59:21.160 That's back room is just an online needed media outlet. 0:59:21.920 --> 0:59:25.120 Is not a newspaper. It's just when we we have 0:59:25.320 --> 0:59:27.720 been changing our way of work because we began as 0:59:27.760 --> 0:59:30.000 a daily we're no longer to do that because we 0:59:30.080 --> 0:59:32.680 don't have enough resources for that, but also there's plenty 0:59:32.720 --> 0:59:37.440 of daily media outlets, digital media outlets for the daily stories. 0:59:37.760 --> 0:59:39.680 We want to do a little bit more in there, 0:59:39.760 --> 0:59:43.040 more investigative, more give you context of what is going on. 0:59:43.640 --> 0:59:46.640 We we are in Spanish, but you can follow us 0:59:46.760 --> 0:59:50.760 on Twitter on add Tijuana Press. Because we tried to 0:59:51.120 --> 0:59:54.440 with our poor English, try to do some on tweets 0:59:54.520 --> 0:59:58.080 on English with the help of Google Translator or other Hell, 0:59:58.200 --> 1:00:02.160 guys who other call that will correct or spelling. But 1:00:02.360 --> 1:00:04.560 that's the main way to get ahold of us. Well, 1:00:04.680 --> 1:00:08.680 I think you're English is great. Uh, you talked to 1:00:08.840 --> 1:00:12.960 us for an hour and I understood everything. Um. But yeah, 1:00:13.160 --> 1:00:15.800 but thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. Yeah, 1:00:16.280 --> 1:00:19.480 thank you, sante, No, thank you guys. You always help 1:00:19.560 --> 1:00:22.760 us to spread the world and to be able to 1:00:22.840 --> 1:00:25.480 put ourselves to be judged by the public. This is 1:00:25.480 --> 1:00:28.280 what it's more important for us. But we do invest 1:00:28.440 --> 1:00:32.640 in algorithms from any social platform because we believe and 1:00:33.000 --> 1:00:35.600 and that the people will be willing to find us 1:00:35.720 --> 1:00:37.960 if they are really interested, and you guys help us 1:00:37.960 --> 1:00:40.520 about in that sense. Yeah, thank yeah, thank you so 1:00:40.680 --> 1:00:42.720 much giving us some of your time. We really appreciate it. 1:00:44.040 --> 1:00:46.320 Thank you. We'll be here if you would be, it 1:00:46.360 --> 1:00:48.760 would be a big help. Thank you, Thank you. So 1:01:04.400 --> 1:01:06.680 welcome to it could happen here a podcast about things 1:01:06.760 --> 1:01:09.200 falling apart and how to put them back together again. Now, 1:01:09.680 --> 1:01:12.160 a thing that has fallen apart that we have talked 1:01:12.160 --> 1:01:14.840 about at length before is the protection of the right 1:01:14.920 --> 1:01:17.800 to abortions, previously enshrined in Roe v. Wade and no 1:01:17.960 --> 1:01:21.840 longer enshrined in that. And we've come at this from 1:01:22.000 --> 1:01:25.360 a number of angles, but one angle that we've neglected 1:01:25.440 --> 1:01:28.960 so far is is the labor angle. Um. And Okay, 1:01:29.040 --> 1:01:32.440 so for reproductive autonomy to exist, right, you need healthcare, 1:01:33.400 --> 1:01:37.000 and healthcare, especially under capitalism, requires labor. And and that 1:01:37.240 --> 1:01:41.120 labor isn't done by you know, abstract organizations. It's done 1:01:41.160 --> 1:01:43.680 by workers who are facing not only sort of the 1:01:43.800 --> 1:01:45.600 mall of the death of row, but the in transient 1:01:45.720 --> 1:01:48.880 and often the belligerency of the room bosses. And here 1:01:48.960 --> 1:01:52.200 to talk with us about that is Crystal Grabowski and 1:01:53.400 --> 1:01:58.439 Elizabeth Vella Nuevo from the wonderfully named UEI Local six 1:01:58.600 --> 1:02:02.280 nine six UM, and I'm gonna I'm going to read 1:02:02.360 --> 1:02:05.360 a pseudo legal disclaimer here, which is that they are 1:02:05.400 --> 1:02:08.080 not representing Planned parent who they do work at Planned Parenthood. 1:02:08.120 --> 1:02:11.760 They are not representing planned parenthood. They're they're representing themselves 1:02:11.800 --> 1:02:18.320 as individuals and our local union, yes, proud members of 1:02:18.400 --> 1:02:24.720 Local six nine, six impeccably named union, purposefully named right. Well, 1:02:24.760 --> 1:02:28.240 they were like, you have to choose a a number 1:02:28.320 --> 1:02:30.440 that starts with six, and then we just looked at 1:02:30.520 --> 1:02:33.640 each other and we had that moment where it's like, yes, 1:02:34.040 --> 1:02:37.080 and then we can add another one and it'll be 1:02:37.160 --> 1:02:44.439 a good time, fun little threesome. He'll be safe. That's good. 1:02:45.120 --> 1:02:48.960 So sorry, round one of pro union propaganda joining you 1:02:49.080 --> 1:02:52.080 did and YouTube can be in in Union Local sixty 1:02:52.200 --> 1:02:55.280 nine or what if they told you the number could 1:02:55.280 --> 1:02:59.400 start with four, like you know, yeah, boom, there's just 1:02:59.520 --> 1:03:01.960 so many options. I'm sure there's other fun numbers that 1:03:02.400 --> 1:03:05.439 besides those, but you have the entire world in front 1:03:05.480 --> 1:03:07.880 of you. Yeah, we could have done six, you could 1:03:07.920 --> 1:03:10.720 do like boom. Can you imagine if we did six six? 1:03:14.880 --> 1:03:19.000 We could now we had that choice, and we went 1:03:19.080 --> 1:03:23.720 with six nine six. Sexual Health Organization is to prove 1:03:23.960 --> 1:03:28.160 that workers will always make the right decisions. This is 1:03:28.240 --> 1:03:32.720 the power of the union. We can evaluate these decisions 1:03:32.800 --> 1:03:40.240 when when it's important and do the right thing. So yeah, 1:03:40.280 --> 1:03:41.680 thank thank you, thank you to you so much for 1:03:42.360 --> 1:03:44.520 for coming on the show. Thank you for having us. 1:03:44.560 --> 1:03:48.160 We're both super excited. Yeah, thanks for tining us a 1:03:48.240 --> 1:03:54.560 slowly abortion workers. So I'm gonna I'm gonna dispute heavily 1:03:54.760 --> 1:03:58.760 with the term slowly like youall are the people who 1:03:58.840 --> 1:04:06.080 make all of this possible. Bull So yeah. Yeah. And 1:04:06.280 --> 1:04:08.640 and now now having said all of this, I'm about 1:04:08.640 --> 1:04:11.160 I'm going to ask you a very depression question, which 1:04:11.360 --> 1:04:13.240 we have. We've asked a lot of the people who've 1:04:13.240 --> 1:04:17.600 talked about abortion access, uh like who work in abortion 1:04:17.640 --> 1:04:19.560 access stuff this question, but I think you two had 1:04:19.560 --> 1:04:22.360 a very different experience of it. Um. What was it 1:04:22.480 --> 1:04:25.520 like on the day when Roe died? Do you want 1:04:25.560 --> 1:04:29.000 to go first, Crystal? Um? Yeah. I've talked about this 1:04:29.040 --> 1:04:32.920 a lot because I'm getting asked a lot, and it's 1:04:33.680 --> 1:04:37.600 I'm happy to talk about it, um, which is I'm 1:04:37.600 --> 1:04:39.560 actually like, it's been hard to listen to other people 1:04:39.600 --> 1:04:42.560 talk about it because then I start getting in my fields. 1:04:42.640 --> 1:04:44.120 But like when I'm talking about and I'm kind of 1:04:44.160 --> 1:04:47.520 like just processing and it's probably healthy for me, somebody 1:04:47.600 --> 1:04:51.160 would say, but it was incredibly traumatic, and it's been 1:04:51.200 --> 1:04:55.320 incredibly traumatic, um since the fall of Ruby Wade and 1:04:55.720 --> 1:05:00.439 the Dobs decision. And I'm saying this, well, like knowing 1:05:00.560 --> 1:05:03.080 that we all knew it was coming, it was it 1:05:03.320 --> 1:05:07.200 was a given and it wasn't surprising. And there's just 1:05:07.320 --> 1:05:10.400 something about knowing that it's been coming for months and 1:05:10.560 --> 1:05:14.400 years that like just it just did nothing to actually 1:05:14.480 --> 1:05:17.520 inform you, like what would it be like? Um, But 1:05:17.920 --> 1:05:20.000 it was like a it was like a tidal wave 1:05:20.120 --> 1:05:23.320 crashing and just like sweeping you away. And we're still 1:05:23.360 --> 1:05:27.400 swept away. Um. The only language that I can find 1:05:27.480 --> 1:05:30.560 that's appropriate is like natural disaster language, and I just 1:05:30.680 --> 1:05:32.800 I keep repeating it and saying, like it's like a hurricane, 1:05:32.840 --> 1:05:36.800 It's like a tidal wave. But that is the those 1:05:36.800 --> 1:05:39.760 are the words that are most fitting to me, like 1:05:39.840 --> 1:05:42.800 emotionally and just in terms of like the violence and 1:05:42.960 --> 1:05:46.000 the that is that you that people are experiencing, um, 1:05:47.160 --> 1:05:50.840 and just the the emotional and mental and bodily harm 1:05:52.400 --> 1:05:56.800 is equitable to a natural disaster. Yeah. And I think 1:05:57.000 --> 1:06:00.280 during one of our debriefs, during a particularly difficult all day, 1:06:00.360 --> 1:06:04.640 this was pretty um row. We were talking about how 1:06:05.640 --> 1:06:07.960 sometimes it's really hard for us when we can see 1:06:08.040 --> 1:06:11.120 these things coming and yet there's nothing we can really 1:06:11.200 --> 1:06:13.200 do about it. And I know that we talked about 1:06:13.280 --> 1:06:16.280 how it felt like we were just tied to a 1:06:16.400 --> 1:06:19.640 train track, watching and waiting for that train to just 1:06:19.800 --> 1:06:21.440 come and hit us, and then when it did, it 1:06:21.600 --> 1:06:24.960 was just it just knocked I think the wind out 1:06:25.000 --> 1:06:27.680 of all of us. Um, I think we all cried 1:06:28.120 --> 1:06:32.160 for sure, that we all cried, and um, and I'm 1:06:32.200 --> 1:06:36.200 not even like, I don't know, like I feel like 1:06:36.240 --> 1:06:38.720 I am. I'm emotional and I am a crier, but 1:06:38.760 --> 1:06:41.920 a whole I didn't think that I would sob immediately 1:06:42.000 --> 1:06:45.160 the second I saw the news. And then I always 1:06:45.240 --> 1:06:46.680 knew we were going to get a lot more calls 1:06:47.000 --> 1:06:49.920 because um, Elizabeth and I also answered phones in the 1:06:49.920 --> 1:06:52.240 abortion clinic, and I was like, Okay, we're gonna get 1:06:52.320 --> 1:06:55.240 way more calls. But like, you don't know what that 1:06:55.480 --> 1:06:57.600 feels like or looks like. Her sounds like, like, what 1:06:57.800 --> 1:07:00.520 is it I feel like to have a hundred people 1:07:00.600 --> 1:07:04.280 calling you pretty much at the same time? What does 1:07:04.360 --> 1:07:08.160 that look like? Now? I know, and it's traumatic and 1:07:08.240 --> 1:07:11.840 it's awful, and um, it's a natural disaster, but it's 1:07:11.840 --> 1:07:14.600 a man made disaster. Actually it's not a natural disaster. 1:07:14.760 --> 1:07:17.800 We've there are people who have inflicted this upon us, um, 1:07:18.920 --> 1:07:22.000 and now we know what it feels like, and it's 1:07:22.040 --> 1:07:24.760 sucking awful. I should have asked if I was allowed 1:07:24.760 --> 1:07:27.120 to swear. Oh yeah, I swear all the time, okay, 1:07:27.280 --> 1:07:29.880 because like I've been on podcast before where they were like, oh, 1:07:29.920 --> 1:07:33.760 we gotta edit that out, which, well, it's a fucking nightmare. Yeah, 1:07:34.280 --> 1:07:36.720 we work in healthcare. I think we swear more than 1:07:36.760 --> 1:07:40.080 the average lay man because they keep saying something out. Yeah, 1:07:41.320 --> 1:07:43.880 there's so much more to say, like yeah, please, I 1:07:43.880 --> 1:07:46.400 don't even know where to go from there. It's just yeah, 1:07:46.440 --> 1:07:49.720 it's like a never ending nightmare because like the calls 1:07:49.760 --> 1:07:53.520 started and then it's just like just just person after 1:07:53.560 --> 1:07:58.720 person after person. They driving driving two hours, three hours, 1:07:58.800 --> 1:08:02.120 four hours, five hours, coming from states that are like 1:08:02.800 --> 1:08:05.640 three states away, coming from like states in the South, 1:08:06.200 --> 1:08:12.200 people taking planes and um, people staying in hotels and 1:08:12.520 --> 1:08:15.040 we've had people pay like hundreds of dollars for maneuver 1:08:16.160 --> 1:08:20.960 eshm and um. And then just like bringing in the 1:08:21.080 --> 1:08:24.840 labor angle to as like unionized abortion workers who you know, 1:08:24.920 --> 1:08:27.360 we have been vocal and we've been rallying and making 1:08:27.400 --> 1:08:31.000 our demands like publicly known. But we are doing this 1:08:32.120 --> 1:08:36.720 while under staffed, like skeletal crew staffing. We didn't have 1:08:36.840 --> 1:08:41.000 enough staff before row fell and the jobs decision, and 1:08:41.200 --> 1:08:45.800 now we just it's bare bones and it's like we 1:08:46.000 --> 1:08:48.600 are So we're taking on this title wave, this like 1:08:48.720 --> 1:08:55.360 man made title wave, while just giving every last ounce 1:08:55.400 --> 1:09:02.240 of our energy. Yeah. Um, and do multiple roles at once. Yeah. 1:09:02.240 --> 1:09:03.760 I don't know if you are able to tell from 1:09:03.800 --> 1:09:06.080 the fact that Crystal and I both work directly in 1:09:06.160 --> 1:09:09.960 the clinic, but we also answer calls. Um. When we 1:09:10.160 --> 1:09:14.000 signed up for our job, Um, we knew that we 1:09:14.080 --> 1:09:16.679 would be doing multiple things around the clinic, and it's 1:09:16.920 --> 1:09:23.160 just it's funny, um to not really know what that 1:09:23.360 --> 1:09:26.120 means until you start doing it. So one day you'll 1:09:26.120 --> 1:09:29.639 be holding a patient's hand while they're having this procedure done, 1:09:29.720 --> 1:09:33.240 like giving them a little baggy in case they feel sick. Um, 1:09:33.840 --> 1:09:35.479 you'll be talking to them on the phone. So some 1:09:35.800 --> 1:09:39.040 there are days where, um, I will meet people who 1:09:39.120 --> 1:09:41.880 I've spoken to on the phone when they called took 1:09:41.920 --> 1:09:46.160 their appointment, and it just hits me like a tidal wave. 1:09:46.640 --> 1:09:51.440 Because I'm like, that's the person, Like, that's this person specifically, 1:09:51.880 --> 1:09:55.240 I remember because I remember hearing the sound of their voice, 1:09:55.640 --> 1:09:58.719 and every single time they call in they are sobbing. 1:09:59.120 --> 1:10:03.240 This is a horrifying moment for them. This is a 1:10:03.360 --> 1:10:05.800 moment where they feel like trapped, They feel like they 1:10:05.840 --> 1:10:09.400 can't share with their family, with their friends. Um, depending 1:10:09.439 --> 1:10:12.320 on what state they're from and the legalities of that state. 1:10:12.600 --> 1:10:15.000 They are even afraid to make these phone calls. Like 1:10:15.360 --> 1:10:17.200 some of the first things that patients say to us 1:10:17.280 --> 1:10:19.800 when they call it is in my is this okay? Like? 1:10:19.920 --> 1:10:22.880 Am I allowed to call you? Um? Amula to talk 1:10:22.960 --> 1:10:25.640 to you? Of my allowed to book an appointment? Um? 1:10:25.920 --> 1:10:31.320 What's going to happen next for me? Appointment? Yeah? Because 1:10:31.360 --> 1:10:34.720 we're not lawyers, because we everything is so fluid right now, 1:10:34.840 --> 1:10:38.200 we don't have answers to give them. Um, we can 1:10:38.280 --> 1:10:41.080 just say, well, you're coming to Pennsylvania and it's stillegal 1:10:41.160 --> 1:10:47.000 in Pennsylvania, so um. And then just to like paint 1:10:47.040 --> 1:10:50.880 the picture a little more too about like both the 1:10:50.960 --> 1:10:57.120 skeletal staffing and the emotional turnoil and the emotional weight 1:10:57.240 --> 1:11:01.960 of it. Um. So that Dobb's decision happened on June, 1:11:02.479 --> 1:11:06.320 which was a Friday, and we're in Pennsylvania, and that 1:11:06.600 --> 1:11:10.040 evening of the evening of June, a trigger man went 1:11:10.080 --> 1:11:15.040 into effect in in Ohio. It was a it's a 1:11:15.240 --> 1:11:18.120 fetal heartbeat bill, which is a deceptive language because it's 1:11:18.120 --> 1:11:21.479 not actually a heartbeat but um, but it's a it's 1:11:21.520 --> 1:11:25.120 technically a fetal heartbeat bill. And so people after six 1:11:25.200 --> 1:11:28.360 weeks um could no longer access abortion services or once 1:11:28.400 --> 1:11:32.479 any sort of like electrical impulse was detected and everyone 1:11:32.640 --> 1:11:36.200 had their appointments canceled. So we were actually at a protest, 1:11:36.280 --> 1:11:38.360 like the staff was like at a protest that evening, 1:11:39.040 --> 1:11:42.320 um with our with our doctors, our abortion providing doctors, 1:11:42.600 --> 1:11:45.240 and the news came out like yeah, shout out to them, 1:11:45.439 --> 1:11:49.000 we love them, um, and we got the news that 1:11:49.080 --> 1:11:51.760 Ohio had just did this, and we were just like, 1:11:52.200 --> 1:11:56.000 oh my god, tomorrow because we knew the second our 1:11:56.080 --> 1:11:59.000 call center and our phone lines opened, everyone whose appointment 1:11:59.040 --> 1:12:00.519 was canceled is going to be calling us. And then 1:12:00.560 --> 1:12:02.639 we pull up the staff schedule and we're like standing 1:12:02.680 --> 1:12:04.840 in the middle of the street at a protest. We 1:12:04.920 --> 1:12:07.639 pull up the staff schedule and we're like, oh my god, 1:12:07.720 --> 1:12:12.120 there is one person schedule to answer phones right now, 1:12:12.800 --> 1:12:15.160 and it is an older woman who's been doing this 1:12:15.320 --> 1:12:18.160 since like the seventies or eighties, and it's like we 1:12:18.320 --> 1:12:22.000 cannot like and we were like all as a union, like, um, 1:12:22.439 --> 1:12:23.760 we turn to each other and we're like, oh my god, 1:12:23.800 --> 1:12:28.000 this is the situation. We cannot leave her alone. Um, 1:12:28.160 --> 1:12:30.519 we've already worked our five days, we already worked our 1:12:30.560 --> 1:12:34.080 already five hours, but we are going to call ourselves 1:12:34.160 --> 1:12:36.479 into work. And like we just we were like we've 1:12:36.560 --> 1:12:38.800 notified our managers, like we're gonna come into work and 1:12:38.840 --> 1:12:43.160 we're gonna help too, answer the phones for these canceled 1:12:43.200 --> 1:12:45.280 Ohio patients. Like that was a decision that we made 1:12:45.360 --> 1:12:48.200 to work those extra that that extra time on our 1:12:48.240 --> 1:12:51.880 weekend off because it was a Saturday. But this ties 1:12:51.920 --> 1:12:56.280 into what Elizabeth was saying, where, Um, when you hear 1:12:56.280 --> 1:12:57.680 the person on the phone and then they come to you, 1:12:58.080 --> 1:13:00.680 and like it's very emotional because like you're doing your 1:13:00.720 --> 1:13:03.000 best as a health care worker to get them the 1:13:03.040 --> 1:13:04.960 health service that you have been trained to provide and 1:13:05.000 --> 1:13:08.920 that you know is very important. So knowing that we 1:13:09.000 --> 1:13:12.920 were understaffed, UM, knowing that we're not making that much money, 1:13:13.520 --> 1:13:17.080 and then just being like I have to go in 1:13:17.280 --> 1:13:20.400 and be there. I can't leave my coworker alone because 1:13:20.479 --> 1:13:23.920 I love my coworker and we can't. And like, somebody 1:13:24.000 --> 1:13:26.479 has to be there for these these patients when they're calling. 1:13:27.600 --> 1:13:29.920 And if it's not going to be the employer and 1:13:29.960 --> 1:13:31.960 the bosses, then it's going to be you. And then 1:13:32.320 --> 1:13:35.640 and then we we all just we did that, and 1:13:35.720 --> 1:13:38.479 then um there was another clinic day. We a lot 1:13:38.560 --> 1:13:41.439 of us arranged to come in for an extra work 1:13:41.560 --> 1:13:43.519 day because we were like, we have we have to 1:13:43.600 --> 1:13:47.360 be there for these patients. Um, so we're really giving 1:13:48.560 --> 1:13:54.800 all of our energy and it's exhausting and traumatizing. I 1:13:54.880 --> 1:13:56.360 can't I feel like I can't say that enough. But 1:13:59.120 --> 1:14:02.200 and we we need more staff, we need better wages, 1:14:02.920 --> 1:14:05.800 we need better working conditions because it's so it's like 1:14:07.160 --> 1:14:08.479 at the end of some of these days, it's like, 1:14:08.640 --> 1:14:11.479 how am I going to keep doing this? My body hurts, 1:14:11.560 --> 1:14:15.160 my brain hurts. I started having like issues with my 1:14:15.320 --> 1:14:18.920 memory where like I couldn't remember anything because like brain 1:14:19.040 --> 1:14:21.600 just gave up on retaining information. And I'm like, I 1:14:21.640 --> 1:14:25.599 think this is like a trauma response, like yeah, I'm 1:14:25.680 --> 1:14:29.360 overwhelmed system shock. I think this is one of the 1:14:29.479 --> 1:14:33.320 things you get with with working for NGOs, which is 1:14:33.439 --> 1:14:35.760 that like we're doing something like this is like there 1:14:35.880 --> 1:14:39.160 is work that needs to be done, but you know, 1:14:39.280 --> 1:14:42.639 the employers not giving you the resources that is necessary 1:14:42.680 --> 1:14:43.960 to do it right. You have one person on a 1:14:44.040 --> 1:14:46.599 call line like the day after a fetal heartbeat bill 1:14:46.680 --> 1:14:49.680 goes goes into effect, and and it's I don't know, 1:14:50.040 --> 1:14:51.479 it seems like one of the one of the things 1:14:51.600 --> 1:14:56.360 that's that that these NGOs do is they were you know, 1:14:56.800 --> 1:14:58.960 they make they make a mistake or they do something 1:14:59.000 --> 1:15:01.559 deliberately because they don't want to pay people and then 1:15:01.680 --> 1:15:03.160 they don't want to pay another more people, and they 1:15:03.240 --> 1:15:05.640 make you go deal with it because you know it 1:15:05.720 --> 1:15:08.760 has to get done because these people need you, and 1:15:09.040 --> 1:15:12.200 that nobody has to do it. Yeah, and that's so cruce. 1:15:12.400 --> 1:15:16.880 It's disgusting. So for me, I like to equate it 1:15:17.840 --> 1:15:20.439 as kind of like being emotionally gaslight because the whole 1:15:20.479 --> 1:15:23.400 point of healthcare, and I've said this to other people 1:15:23.479 --> 1:15:26.120 in different health care roles that I've worked before, because 1:15:26.160 --> 1:15:28.599 as we do, health care is chronically understaffed, Like there 1:15:28.640 --> 1:15:32.680 are so many like nursing shortages, and things. UM. Is 1:15:32.760 --> 1:15:37.360 that healthcare is designed to draw people who want to 1:15:37.439 --> 1:15:41.479 help to have these like very strong moral and emotional 1:15:41.600 --> 1:15:45.280 beliefs um. And we are paid to care like it 1:15:45.400 --> 1:15:49.479 is our job to care UM. And that is how 1:15:49.720 --> 1:15:52.040 they can get all of these things out of us. 1:15:52.200 --> 1:15:56.280 Is because it's very easy to feel emotionally manipulated when 1:15:56.360 --> 1:15:59.560 somebody's like, well, somebody has to be there for this patient, 1:16:00.160 --> 1:16:05.360 this person UM, this like thing that can't wait um. 1:16:06.560 --> 1:16:09.120 And so a lot of us UM. Even like I 1:16:09.200 --> 1:16:11.640 said before, I worked here. At like different positions that 1:16:11.680 --> 1:16:14.439 I've held, I've been like, I will take an extra 1:16:14.520 --> 1:16:18.080 shift because somebody has to do it. And I love 1:16:18.400 --> 1:16:21.519 my job so much. I love working in healthcare. It's 1:16:21.960 --> 1:16:23.840 something I've been very passionate about since I was a 1:16:23.840 --> 1:16:29.040 small child. UM. So I for years would burn myself 1:16:29.120 --> 1:16:31.760 out and be like, I'll take the extra shift at 1:16:31.800 --> 1:16:34.120 a different position. UM. When I used to work at 1:16:34.160 --> 1:16:36.879 a care UM. I worked at an intermediate care facility 1:16:36.920 --> 1:16:40.479 for adults with intellectual physical disabilities UM for a couple 1:16:40.479 --> 1:16:44.920 of years, and I remember routinely working sixteen hour shifts 1:16:45.000 --> 1:16:46.920 like day in and day out. I think there was 1:16:47.000 --> 1:16:49.599 like six seven days a week of just doubles where 1:16:49.600 --> 1:16:52.120 I would work like sixteen hour shifts. I don't think 1:16:52.200 --> 1:16:56.640 I like slept or aid or did anything UM. And 1:16:56.760 --> 1:16:59.640 then at one point I was so burnt out that 1:16:59.800 --> 1:17:02.720 I just couldn't do it anymore. And I started to 1:17:02.760 --> 1:17:05.080 get frustrated with the people that I worked with and 1:17:05.200 --> 1:17:07.519 like the patients that I cared about. And this one 1:17:07.560 --> 1:17:11.799 particular day, I like, I noticed myself getting incredibly annoyed 1:17:12.200 --> 1:17:16.600 with everything that was like happening, like sounds, patients like 1:17:18.120 --> 1:17:22.439 just being themselves, Like I didn't, you know, take it 1:17:22.479 --> 1:17:26.479 out on anything or anyone. I just noticed myself getting 1:17:26.520 --> 1:17:28.640 like slightly more irritated. And then I was like, this 1:17:28.800 --> 1:17:32.600 is not sustainable. I can't keep doing this UM. And 1:17:32.720 --> 1:17:38.640 I compared this recent change posted the jobs decision to 1:17:38.840 --> 1:17:40.679 what it was like when I also used to work 1:17:40.800 --> 1:17:45.000 for distributing medical equipment to hospices UM. It felt like 1:17:47.479 --> 1:17:53.960 every single moment was an emergency that I just did 1:17:54.040 --> 1:17:58.880 not have the resources to be able to UM help 1:17:58.960 --> 1:18:02.120 with because is on one end of the line, you 1:18:02.240 --> 1:18:06.400 have somebody that is having this emergency, and then on 1:18:06.520 --> 1:18:08.719 the other end of the line, there's another person pulling 1:18:08.800 --> 1:18:13.000 you because they're also having an emergency, and so you 1:18:13.120 --> 1:18:16.400 have to kind of weigh which one of these patients 1:18:17.360 --> 1:18:20.760 like needs you the most right now, and which one 1:18:20.800 --> 1:18:25.200 of those can you reasonably help. It's like that psychology 1:18:25.800 --> 1:18:29.400 psychology puzzle where they're like, um, if you move the 1:18:29.479 --> 1:18:34.320 thing on the try, yeah, the trolley problem where like 1:18:34.760 --> 1:18:37.920 one of these people will die or seven people will die, 1:18:38.080 --> 1:18:41.679 and you have to decide which one of those you're 1:18:41.720 --> 1:18:45.840 gonna pull. Yeah, there's only so much that we can 1:18:45.920 --> 1:18:51.720 give as healthcare workers, as abortion workers, as reproductive health workers. Um, 1:18:52.400 --> 1:18:54.680 there's only so many hours in a day. And as 1:18:54.800 --> 1:18:59.400 much as we want to keep giving for us to 1:18:59.560 --> 1:19:01.400 keep poor hanging out of an empty cup, it's just 1:19:01.520 --> 1:19:04.200 not sustainable for ourselves. Like I know, many of us 1:19:04.240 --> 1:19:08.160 have lost sleep, many of us have stopped like being 1:19:08.200 --> 1:19:11.240 able to focus on anything outside of work, because as 1:19:11.320 --> 1:19:13.040 soon as like you turn on the news or you 1:19:13.160 --> 1:19:16.240 open your phone or you like open up Twitter, there's 1:19:16.320 --> 1:19:20.320 more and more and more information because everything is consistently 1:19:20.439 --> 1:19:25.360 changing all of the time. And like, um, Western Virginia 1:19:25.600 --> 1:19:33.360 is currently having like there, Um, yeah, so that's new. 1:19:33.520 --> 1:19:35.680 And we had a couple of calls come in from um, 1:19:37.080 --> 1:19:40.760 you know, we had Kentucky. Yeah, so that was new. Um. 1:19:41.880 --> 1:19:45.360 And we're just starting to like really have a good 1:19:45.439 --> 1:19:49.800 pattern of resources for patients coming in from like Ohio. Um, 1:19:50.760 --> 1:19:53.680 and now we're like, okay, well what about Kentucky. So 1:19:53.840 --> 1:19:57.479 we just like we feel like there's just one like 1:19:57.800 --> 1:19:59.880 hole in the dam that we put our finger on 1:20:00.000 --> 1:20:03.240 and then another one shows up that at some point 1:20:05.080 --> 1:20:08.280 we just have to know that we've done our best. Um, 1:20:08.560 --> 1:20:11.360 and then it's okay to take a second to rest 1:20:11.960 --> 1:20:16.320 um and do you know, go home and maybe like 1:20:16.720 --> 1:20:23.920 watch TV or listen to a podcast. Yeah not about abortion. Yeah, 1:20:25.479 --> 1:20:28.720 forget about abortion for two seconds, and because we will 1:20:28.760 --> 1:20:32.280 inevitably have to do it again tomorrow. This reminds me 1:20:32.400 --> 1:20:35.920 a lot of Um, I did an interview like I 1:20:35.960 --> 1:20:37.560 don't actually it will be a couple of weeks, I 1:20:37.600 --> 1:20:40.920 guess by when this comes out. With some organizers who 1:20:40.960 --> 1:20:43.920 were like trying to do like relief and aid for 1:20:44.040 --> 1:20:47.400 the migrants. You're getting bus to d C from Texas, 1:20:47.520 --> 1:20:49.320 I think you talk to and it was like they 1:20:49.360 --> 1:20:51.040 were talking about exactly the same thing where it's like 1:20:51.080 --> 1:20:52.200 we have to do this, we have to do this 1:20:52.240 --> 1:20:54.040 because otherwise no one's gonna help these people, but like 1:20:54.640 --> 1:20:56.960 at a certain point it's like everyone has COVID, like 1:20:57.200 --> 1:21:00.680 we just can't and it I don't know, it's I 1:21:00.720 --> 1:21:04.040 think it's especially frustrating that this is happening because like 1:21:04.080 --> 1:21:05.880 those people were just like they have no resources, right, 1:21:05.920 --> 1:21:07.400 It's just a bunch of people who could drink virtually 1:21:07.400 --> 1:21:09.760 a thing. But like this is planned parenthood, Like they 1:21:09.800 --> 1:21:12.800 have resources and they're not. They're not doing this, and 1:21:12.800 --> 1:21:15.880 they're they're doing this. I talked to a nurse who's 1:21:15.960 --> 1:21:18.479 a friend of mine a long time ago on this show, 1:21:18.640 --> 1:21:21.320 and he talked, you know, he was in nurstring COVID. 1:21:21.360 --> 1:21:24.920 He's gotten COVID twice I think, and like, you know, 1:21:25.000 --> 1:21:27.920 he was talking about how like yeah, he he said, 1:21:27.960 --> 1:21:29.560 to be like thing I've always remember. It was like 1:21:29.600 --> 1:21:32.080 I've seen people die because I've seen people die because 1:21:32.080 --> 1:21:35.400 of staffing decisions. Yeah, and it's like it's this, it's 1:21:35.439 --> 1:21:38.680 this moral blackmail thing where it's like, in order to 1:21:38.800 --> 1:21:40.840 expect this thing needs to be done, we're not going 1:21:40.880 --> 1:21:43.120 to actually supervide you with enough resources to do it, 1:21:43.280 --> 1:21:46.240 and we're going to make you responsible for the consequences 1:21:46.280 --> 1:21:52.280 of our actions. And yeah, it's it's grotesque. Yeah, and 1:21:52.400 --> 1:21:55.559 then that um, really it's just kind of like part 1:21:55.640 --> 1:21:57.679 of the trauma for the workers. And I'm not honest 1:21:57.720 --> 1:21:59.640 to the patients for everyone in our communities because this 1:22:00.160 --> 1:22:05.200 literally everyone is um just like turning. Like we do 1:22:05.320 --> 1:22:09.639 turn people away because pregnancy is a time sensitive issue 1:22:10.560 --> 1:22:12.640 and you know, you have to get in in a 1:22:12.680 --> 1:22:14.479 certain number of weeks in order to get you know, 1:22:14.560 --> 1:22:16.600 the type of procedure that you want in order to 1:22:16.640 --> 1:22:19.840 get a procedure at all. And these are people that 1:22:20.000 --> 1:22:22.320 are often parents, the majority of people who have abortions 1:22:22.439 --> 1:22:25.320 or parents, um, and they have children, and they have 1:22:25.479 --> 1:22:27.360 jobs or they don't have like p t O and 1:22:27.720 --> 1:22:30.040 they live four hours away. So it's like how am 1:22:30.080 --> 1:22:32.840 I going to get to this appointment? So there's so 1:22:32.960 --> 1:22:38.040 many people that we have to refer. So it's it's 1:22:38.160 --> 1:22:43.080 so much on your soul to be on the phones 1:22:43.560 --> 1:22:46.920 and you speak to mother after mother, like a single 1:22:47.000 --> 1:22:51.840 mother or somebody who lost a partner or they are 1:22:52.120 --> 1:22:55.400 you know, um, they got evicted, and you're referring them 1:22:56.040 --> 1:23:00.639 to Detroit, which is an also so four or five 1:23:00.680 --> 1:23:04.120 hours away, and just to refer people to say I 1:23:04.240 --> 1:23:07.240 can't help you, try calling this place and to do 1:23:07.360 --> 1:23:09.720 that like multiple times in a row every day, and 1:23:09.800 --> 1:23:12.080 then you're like you're working seven hour days. It is 1:23:12.160 --> 1:23:15.160 really soul crushing because it feels like and like you 1:23:15.320 --> 1:23:17.960 tell yourself, like it's my you know, we don't have 1:23:18.040 --> 1:23:20.840 the resources, we don't have the staff, we weren't prepared 1:23:20.920 --> 1:23:24.559 for this crisis. It's not on me, but it's very 1:23:24.720 --> 1:23:29.240 hard not to feel awful when you are turning people 1:23:29.280 --> 1:23:31.679 away because you don't I don't know any I've probably 1:23:31.760 --> 1:23:35.000 turned like probably over a hundred people away on the 1:23:35.040 --> 1:23:37.519 phones and told them who to call. I don't know 1:23:37.640 --> 1:23:39.320 if they reach those places. I don't know if they 1:23:39.360 --> 1:23:41.720 called those places. For all I know, they continue to 1:23:41.800 --> 1:23:45.400 hire risk pregnancy, and they might suffer health consequences or 1:23:45.720 --> 1:23:47.439 things that debilitate them for the rest of their life, 1:23:47.720 --> 1:23:49.840 things that make the children's lives worse. And I have 1:23:49.960 --> 1:23:52.640 no way of knowing. So it's just very traumatic to 1:23:53.280 --> 1:23:55.040 constantly be hanging up on the phone with people and 1:23:55.120 --> 1:24:00.600 just like sending them into like just a desert. I 1:24:00.680 --> 1:24:02.960 think the hardest part two is that these phone calls 1:24:03.040 --> 1:24:06.000 aren't like two seconds long. They're not two minutes. When 1:24:06.080 --> 1:24:10.439 we tell when we answer the phones. Abortion appointments take 1:24:10.479 --> 1:24:14.040 about fifteen to twenty minutes to schedule, so this is 1:24:14.120 --> 1:24:15.880 a half an hour that you are getting to know 1:24:16.600 --> 1:24:20.519 an individual. A person, they tell you everything about their lives. 1:24:20.640 --> 1:24:23.600 They tell you exactly what they're feeling, what they're afraid of, 1:24:23.680 --> 1:24:27.320 what they're going through with their families like um, what 1:24:27.400 --> 1:24:30.400 their financial situation is like. And then at the end 1:24:30.479 --> 1:24:33.680 when you tell them or at the beginning, which I 1:24:33.800 --> 1:24:37.000 do often just to let them know what they're getting 1:24:37.040 --> 1:24:40.120 themselves into. When you tell them that you're booking like 1:24:40.560 --> 1:24:43.479 three weeks out, four weeks out, you can just hear 1:24:43.560 --> 1:24:49.040 it in their voice that they are so scared and 1:24:49.240 --> 1:24:55.240 so desperate and there's nothing you can do about it 1:24:55.560 --> 1:25:00.280 because there's just not enough of us. There's not enough days, 1:25:00.320 --> 1:25:03.080 there's not enough hours in the day to see all 1:25:03.160 --> 1:25:05.880 of these patients. There is so much red tape that 1:25:06.000 --> 1:25:08.320 these patients have to go through to even get to 1:25:08.479 --> 1:25:10.640 this appointment. There's a twenty four our phone consent and 1:25:10.640 --> 1:25:14.320 the State of Pennsylvania UM. If they miss that, they 1:25:14.360 --> 1:25:21.839 can't be seen. And these are often like um depending 1:25:21.880 --> 1:25:24.400 on the time of the phone call. Some people work 1:25:24.479 --> 1:25:28.360 multiple jobs. They're like sleep they can't make the phone call. 1:25:28.760 --> 1:25:33.839 They're sick, they're sick, they don't have working cell phones, 1:25:35.920 --> 1:25:38.720 or they're in a yeah, there in a situation where 1:25:38.720 --> 1:25:41.640 they're like have intimate partner violence, so they can't be 1:25:41.760 --> 1:25:46.559 on the phone for that long without risking their personal safety. 1:25:46.720 --> 1:25:50.240 And it's just really traumatizing. And I know that it's 1:25:50.280 --> 1:25:53.439 really common on the left and with like pro abortion 1:25:53.520 --> 1:25:56.519 people to say like, you can't stop abortion, you can 1:25:56.560 --> 1:26:00.719 only start save abortion. And I totally support the sentiment 1:26:00.800 --> 1:26:02.840 behind that, because people are going to get abortions no 1:26:03.000 --> 1:26:07.160 matter what. But people also need to think about the 1:26:07.200 --> 1:26:10.000 people who give up, because I have when I have 1:26:10.120 --> 1:26:13.280 been on the phone with someone and heard them give up. Yeah, 1:26:13.920 --> 1:26:18.720 and it's it's it's it's traumatizing because like, you know 1:26:18.880 --> 1:26:21.400 that you gave them the information that broke them where 1:26:21.439 --> 1:26:22.920 they were. Just like when I'm like, Okay, you have 1:26:22.960 --> 1:26:25.040 to wait four weeks, you have to drive four hours, 1:26:25.120 --> 1:26:26.320 you have to do this, you have to pay this, 1:26:26.479 --> 1:26:28.559 you have to do that, and then just for them 1:26:28.640 --> 1:26:30.880 to say, I'm sorry, I don't want to waste your 1:26:30.920 --> 1:26:34.280 time anymore. I just can't do this much right now. 1:26:34.479 --> 1:26:38.120 It's just too much. And just to hear they're just 1:26:39.080 --> 1:26:42.600 resignation because you know, I think I feel like, you know, 1:26:42.760 --> 1:26:44.560 working in jobs, you might have heard people just like 1:26:45.240 --> 1:26:48.439 reach that moment where they hit their point, um, whatever 1:26:48.479 --> 1:26:50.840 their breaking point might be, whatever the context is, whatever 1:26:50.880 --> 1:26:53.200 the topic is. But like when it's your life and 1:26:53.320 --> 1:26:55.439 it's your health and it's your family and they're just like, 1:26:55.840 --> 1:26:58.000 this is my breaking point and witnessing and that that 1:26:58.080 --> 1:27:01.320 does happen. And it's a tragedy every time that somebody 1:27:01.360 --> 1:27:04.720 abandons what they really want and their health and their 1:27:04.760 --> 1:27:09.559 well being and um, and it does happen. And that's 1:27:09.600 --> 1:27:11.560 why this is a tragedy that needs to stop. And 1:27:11.640 --> 1:27:13.200 I don't know when it's going to stop, because it 1:27:13.280 --> 1:27:14.880 just kind of seems like it's going to keep happening 1:27:14.920 --> 1:27:17.840 and keep going and going and going, in which case 1:27:17.880 --> 1:27:19.880 the trauma is going to like move, Like right now, 1:27:19.960 --> 1:27:21.519 we're like bearing the frunt of it, but it's gonna 1:27:21.560 --> 1:27:24.439 like radiate from us in our patients and we're going 1:27:24.479 --> 1:27:29.000 to see the ripple effects across the whole generational trauma 1:27:29.160 --> 1:27:34.840 that's going to continue for multiple decades. Yeah, And it's 1:27:34.960 --> 1:27:38.880 I mean, just on a basic level, it's not fair 1:27:38.960 --> 1:27:41.560 that even you have to deal with this like this, 1:27:41.760 --> 1:27:45.280 This shouldn't be happening at all like that, And it's 1:27:45.360 --> 1:27:50.120 it's that, it's that like all of the evil of 1:27:50.160 --> 1:27:53.680 the American settler state falling on like a bunch of 1:27:53.760 --> 1:27:56.000 people who have nothing and then a bunch of workers 1:27:56.120 --> 1:27:59.360 who are expected to show up and have to deal 1:27:59.439 --> 1:28:01.880 with all of their all of their trauma to every 1:28:02.000 --> 1:28:05.719 day and it's just like a trauma to loser. Yeah, 1:28:06.000 --> 1:28:11.519 and it's like flags and but and then we had 1:28:11.520 --> 1:28:16.559 a union rally recently and uh, we were very open 1:28:16.640 --> 1:28:18.400 and talking about how a lot of us work two 1:28:18.479 --> 1:28:21.160 jobs and and we have staff members who donate plasma, 1:28:21.360 --> 1:28:23.840 so it's like we're doing this on top of a 1:28:23.920 --> 1:28:29.160 second job, and donating are like bodily fluids. I spoke 1:28:29.360 --> 1:28:31.960 at this rally and I was like, we're literally giving 1:28:31.960 --> 1:28:35.880 our flesh, blood and tears to this whole thing. Um 1:28:36.160 --> 1:28:39.040 because it's just we love it. We love all of 1:28:39.080 --> 1:28:42.240 our patients, We care about the work. We really want 1:28:42.320 --> 1:28:45.439 to make sure that our patients are going to be okay. 1:28:46.360 --> 1:28:51.400 And I think that's why we do it, and also 1:28:51.720 --> 1:28:56.560 how we can justify feeling this way day day in 1:28:56.640 --> 1:29:00.840 and day out. I wanna I think moved from this 1:29:01.360 --> 1:29:07.599 to talking about the contract negotiation process, because like, okay, 1:29:07.680 --> 1:29:09.720 it is not okay for anyone to have like a 1:29:09.760 --> 1:29:13.439 fourteen month long contract negotiation process. It's especially not okay 1:29:13.560 --> 1:29:16.800 for you to have to do this. So yeah, can 1:29:16.840 --> 1:29:18.639 we can we talk about what Plant like what Plant 1:29:18.680 --> 1:29:22.559 parents has been doing and would be better at answering 1:29:22.600 --> 1:29:25.519 this because she's on our bargaining committee. I'm on the 1:29:25.560 --> 1:29:31.280 bargaining team, Yam. I've been doing this for fourteen months 1:29:31.400 --> 1:29:35.320 and like just oh god, I'm so sick of these meetings. 1:29:35.520 --> 1:29:38.120 I'm so sick of them, sick of the talking to 1:29:38.160 --> 1:29:42.920 their lawyer. Um, it's been long. They've been just um 1:29:43.200 --> 1:29:47.080 really just dragging themselves. It's like carrying a dead body, 1:29:47.479 --> 1:29:51.479 just like like it's like come on, come on, are you? 1:29:51.600 --> 1:29:53.320 Are you okay? We're gonna We're gonna get there, you know, 1:29:53.400 --> 1:29:59.000 like I'm We're just like dragging them, and they are 1:29:59.040 --> 1:30:03.120 afraid of everything. Everything is we gotta see, we gotta check, 1:30:03.200 --> 1:30:05.200 we gotta we gotta look into it, and then you 1:30:05.320 --> 1:30:08.760 never hear back, or maybe you hear back like three 1:30:08.800 --> 1:30:14.200 months four months later. Um, they constantly want to bring 1:30:14.240 --> 1:30:17.960 in a mediator, constantly and it's like there's nothing to mediate, 1:30:18.400 --> 1:30:20.840 like what are we going to immediate? You telling us 1:30:21.280 --> 1:30:23.200 that you gotta back to us, like what's there to 1:30:23.280 --> 1:30:26.519 mediate there? Um, And they're like it will move it along. 1:30:26.800 --> 1:30:29.160 And it's like yes, because they're doing the job for you. 1:30:29.320 --> 1:30:31.519 We want you to do it. We want you to 1:30:31.600 --> 1:30:34.120 have answers, you to figure it out. You're the bosses, 1:30:34.400 --> 1:30:38.040 you make the money, you're one running the organization. Um. Sorry, 1:30:38.040 --> 1:30:43.040 I start getting salty. The bargaining team has has um. 1:30:44.040 --> 1:30:46.960 Being on the bargaining team has really nurtured my rage. Um. 1:30:48.439 --> 1:30:50.880 It's been very exhausting. And I know we're going to 1:30:51.080 --> 1:30:55.040 win a good contract because we are badasses and I 1:30:55.080 --> 1:30:58.920 think we're really strong union and really strong team. Um, 1:31:00.400 --> 1:31:04.519 and we need we need a livable wage because we're 1:31:05.640 --> 1:31:09.640 we're getting pommelled. So UM, it's been really frustrating. I 1:31:09.720 --> 1:31:14.920 guess it's like in short, it's really drawn out, frustrating, disrespectful. 1:31:14.920 --> 1:31:17.439 I feel like my time has been disrespected. You know, 1:31:17.520 --> 1:31:22.360 I turn up every day, um for for my employer 1:31:22.439 --> 1:31:26.400 in the clinic. I'm an excellent worker and uh and 1:31:26.479 --> 1:31:30.160 they just waste like two three hours of my evening constantly. 1:31:31.280 --> 1:31:34.519 I could have been on my porch drinking tea or something, 1:31:34.560 --> 1:31:39.360 I don't know, something relaxing. Yeah, And I guess like 1:31:39.560 --> 1:31:43.040 any other person, like every every day that they don't 1:31:43.800 --> 1:31:46.519 like sign a contract is another day they get to 1:31:46.560 --> 1:31:50.160 get away with not paying you, not bringing more staff. 1:31:50.320 --> 1:31:54.120 And it's and they're constantly trying to get delay contract 1:31:54.160 --> 1:31:56.479 negotiations to where they're like, oh, if you do this, 1:31:56.960 --> 1:31:59.800 we can we'll give you a couple of pennies and 1:32:00.000 --> 1:32:01.920 then we won't make any you won't be able to 1:32:01.960 --> 1:32:04.519 make any economic changes until the next fiscal year. And 1:32:04.600 --> 1:32:06.360 it's like, do you think I want to wait till 1:32:06.439 --> 1:32:12.280 next July? I have a life plans. Yeah, I mean 1:32:12.280 --> 1:32:14.080 I think we've talked about on the show before that 1:32:14.200 --> 1:32:15.920 like one of the one of the most common ways 1:32:16.080 --> 1:32:18.920 that one of the most common ways that unions fall apart, 1:32:19.000 --> 1:32:21.519 and one of the things that corporations do and n 1:32:21.560 --> 1:32:24.120 g O s due to crush them is by trying 1:32:24.160 --> 1:32:27.840 to make sure that the first contract fails. And yeah, 1:32:27.880 --> 1:32:32.320 it's a union busting thing, and it's for tesque especially 1:32:32.439 --> 1:32:36.360 that it's like okay, like with capitalist firms, like yeah, 1:32:36.400 --> 1:32:38.800 you expect them to be union busting, right, Like that 1:32:38.920 --> 1:32:41.240 that's their job. Their job is to ruthlessly special lab 1:32:41.320 --> 1:32:43.599 but it's like this is an NGO, Like their job 1:32:43.840 --> 1:32:46.519 is to provide healthcare for people. They're supposed to be 1:32:46.560 --> 1:32:51.960 oppressive organization. They're still doing this and it's I don't know, 1:32:52.680 --> 1:32:58.640 it seems just really grim. Um it is grim and 1:32:59.200 --> 1:33:03.920 it doesn't give a lot of hope too, I think 1:33:04.120 --> 1:33:07.200 just everyone living in this in this country, because it's like, okay, 1:33:07.320 --> 1:33:12.599 so there's been a a uh, I was gonna say attack, 1:33:12.720 --> 1:33:15.519 but like attack doesn't feel appropriate. Like they have gutted 1:33:15.560 --> 1:33:21.479 abortion access, hurting everybody, UM, causing like violence to people, 1:33:22.439 --> 1:33:24.880 and who do you look to? So you would think 1:33:24.880 --> 1:33:28.360 that you would look to these progressive abortion related organizations 1:33:28.680 --> 1:33:34.920 like Planned Parenthood, National Abortion Federation, UM, narrow, but all 1:33:35.040 --> 1:33:41.519 of them have nothing to give and nothing. They're they're you. 1:33:41.720 --> 1:33:44.080 You only hear bad news. You hear them shutting down, 1:33:44.520 --> 1:33:49.200 you hear them union busting, you hear them UM requiring 1:33:49.320 --> 1:33:54.400 ridiculous regulations that aren't even necessary, and it's it's just 1:33:54.840 --> 1:33:57.840 there's no they don't do anything to inspire hope. So 1:33:57.960 --> 1:34:01.679 it's like, well you need you know, like UM, prison 1:34:01.760 --> 1:34:04.760 culture and Mary Mikaba says like, you know, hope as 1:34:04.760 --> 1:34:06.479 a discipline, So I feel like a lot of us 1:34:06.479 --> 1:34:08.920 are always looking to like a place to exercise our hope, 1:34:09.160 --> 1:34:11.600 and you're you're not going to get that here with 1:34:11.920 --> 1:34:14.680 with some of these organizations. I think you are going 1:34:14.760 --> 1:34:17.040 to get it in I think the rebro unions, because 1:34:17.040 --> 1:34:18.240 I think there's a lot of us and I think 1:34:18.240 --> 1:34:21.479 there were I think that we are working our little 1:34:21.520 --> 1:34:23.840 hearts out, and I think you're also going to get 1:34:23.840 --> 1:34:26.200 it with some of these other organizations like the abortion 1:34:26.280 --> 1:34:29.480 like abortion funds and some of the practical support organizations 1:34:29.560 --> 1:34:31.839 that are really like getting on the level of patients 1:34:32.040 --> 1:34:36.120 who are patients for former patients and are like, we're 1:34:36.160 --> 1:34:39.080 going to get people abortions. I think that's where hope 1:34:39.200 --> 1:34:44.559 is right now. Um, but not with our employer. Yeah, 1:34:44.600 --> 1:34:45.880 I want to say, I guess there's some of your 1:34:45.920 --> 1:34:47.320 things I wanted to ask about was sort of on 1:34:47.360 --> 1:34:50.640 a macro level. I mean, just everyone we've talked to 1:34:51.040 --> 1:34:55.519 has talked about how like the ability to get an 1:34:55.520 --> 1:35:00.519 abortion is based on like a pretty small a number 1:35:00.560 --> 1:35:03.880 of people who are like some you know, people who 1:35:03.880 --> 1:35:07.720 are abortion who are escorts, who are who are like 1:35:07.840 --> 1:35:10.200 a lot of time volunteers, or it's people who are 1:35:10.640 --> 1:35:13.760 like you two, who are being like horrifically underpaid to 1:35:13.920 --> 1:35:17.280 you the actual work of this. And I was wondering 1:35:18.400 --> 1:35:20.880 what you two think that, like the like the way 1:35:20.960 --> 1:35:26.240 this like I don't know, I guess, like the way 1:35:26.320 --> 1:35:29.040 everyone has sort of just run ragged even keeping the system. 1:35:29.080 --> 1:35:31.400 How it was like what role that played on a 1:35:31.479 --> 1:35:33.840 sort of macro level in terms of why ROW was 1:35:34.160 --> 1:35:37.200 like destroyed in the first place, and what that's done 1:35:37.280 --> 1:35:40.240 to the sort of the broader movement. I mean, no, 1:35:40.360 --> 1:35:43.240 they didn't do anything to prevent it. Yeah, Like it's 1:35:43.280 --> 1:35:47.360 just what have we seen? What show of force or 1:35:47.439 --> 1:35:53.679 strength or commitment to abortion access have we seen in ever? Honestly, 1:35:53.920 --> 1:35:59.080 like I can't even think other than like some loss 1:35:59.240 --> 1:36:02.599 or some legal wins we've celebrated, Like I do remember 1:36:02.920 --> 1:36:07.920 whole woman's health be Hellerstead, Um, what was that was 1:36:08.000 --> 1:36:09.920 like a win and we were excited and we were like, 1:36:11.200 --> 1:36:15.280 this is good news, and that's honestly the last and 1:36:15.360 --> 1:36:17.680 now again that was just a court decision, so it 1:36:17.760 --> 1:36:21.040 was like not in our hands really anyways. So I 1:36:21.200 --> 1:36:26.680 just either so little, there's so little to work with, 1:36:26.760 --> 1:36:29.639 and so a little look at outside of I think 1:36:30.240 --> 1:36:35.320 just some really excellent organizing from workers and practical support groups. 1:36:35.479 --> 1:36:39.160 And I really think that our community has been fabulous 1:36:39.800 --> 1:36:43.000 this last whole like month. Be All of the support 1:36:43.080 --> 1:36:47.519 that we've gotten, UM for our like personal morale has 1:36:47.600 --> 1:36:51.880 been through like friends or local businesses or like people 1:36:51.920 --> 1:36:57.120 who know people who um like are there to offer 1:36:57.240 --> 1:37:01.439 us like an ear, a hand, a cup of coffee. Um. 1:37:02.000 --> 1:37:05.120 Some of our doctors bring in bagels. Uh, this is 1:37:05.200 --> 1:37:08.320 like from their own pockets. Um, we'll bring in bagels. 1:37:08.360 --> 1:37:11.120 We've had like people donate and organized to bring in 1:37:11.240 --> 1:37:14.280 like coffee and stuff. UM. I know that Crystal was 1:37:14.360 --> 1:37:18.720 receiving a lot of donations herself, UM that we all 1:37:18.920 --> 1:37:23.920 use to buy ourselves, like food, drinks, stuff for people 1:37:23.960 --> 1:37:28.560 are just like sending me money for them. Yeah, and 1:37:29.000 --> 1:37:31.360 I thought that was really great. But I also noticed 1:37:31.600 --> 1:37:38.599 that it came from outside sources and not from internal sources. UM. 1:37:38.880 --> 1:37:42.120 These are all other people outside in our community who 1:37:42.800 --> 1:37:45.840 understand and value the work with that we're doing, and 1:37:46.120 --> 1:37:49.479 like actively listen for what we need and what we're 1:37:49.520 --> 1:37:53.200 asking for. Um. And I think that there's a lot 1:37:53.280 --> 1:37:56.479 to be said about that. Yeah, Honestly, the most hope, 1:37:56.479 --> 1:37:59.759 and the most support has come from just like regular people. 1:38:00.000 --> 1:38:04.000 You don't really see it from anyone with anything any 1:38:04.080 --> 1:38:09.479 actual money or power. And on that note, this has 1:38:09.560 --> 1:38:11.479 been Naked Happen Here. You can find us on Twitter 1:38:11.560 --> 1:38:14.200 and Instagram That Happen Here pod, and you can find 1:38:14.280 --> 1:38:18.560 Crystal and Elizabeth Union at PPWP Union on Twitter or 1:38:18.640 --> 1:38:21.280 for part two of this interview and until then, goodbye. 1:38:36.840 --> 1:38:39.080 Welcome to Dick It Happened Here, a podcast about n 1:38:39.120 --> 1:38:41.680 g O is portraying the working class and casting reproductive 1:38:41.720 --> 1:38:44.479 autonomy to the wolves. I'm your host, Christopher Wong, and 1:38:44.560 --> 1:38:46.600 this is part two of my interview with Crystal and 1:38:46.680 --> 1:38:50.280 Elizabeth from UEI Local six nine six. They are once 1:38:50.320 --> 1:38:54.800 again representing only themselves in the union and not planned parenthood. Yes, 1:38:54.960 --> 1:38:58.360 so let's get back to the interview. Okay, should should I? 1:38:58.400 --> 1:39:01.360 Should I do a incredibly long and drawn out metaphor 1:39:01.560 --> 1:39:07.280 about migrant workers in China? Go for it? Yeah? Okay, 1:39:07.320 --> 1:39:08.800 So I'm gonna, I'm gonn I'm gonna, I'm gonna do 1:39:08.840 --> 1:39:12.120 a man for it. Okay. So alright, alright, So one 1:39:12.160 --> 1:39:14.960 of one of the sort of engines of Chinese economic 1:39:15.000 --> 1:39:17.280 growth for a long time is that China's economy is 1:39:17.280 --> 1:39:20.640 built on migrant labor. There are I think it's like 1:39:20.760 --> 1:39:25.200 two fifty million migrant workers. It's like like if you 1:39:25.240 --> 1:39:26.680 put them together as a country. I think when I 1:39:26.720 --> 1:39:28.719 got into ninety, if you put together as a country, 1:39:28.760 --> 1:39:30.400 would be like the fourth largest country in the world. 1:39:31.000 --> 1:39:35.040 And this was able to happen, you know, and like 1:39:35.400 --> 1:39:37.200 the sort of like the secret of the Chinese miracle 1:39:37.439 --> 1:39:39.160 is that it was a bunch of workers who were 1:39:39.200 --> 1:39:44.240 exploited horribly and they also had a lot A lot 1:39:44.280 --> 1:39:46.160 of these workers are coming from the countryside, and there's 1:39:46.160 --> 1:39:49.719 still sort of like kinds of forms of like communal 1:39:49.800 --> 1:39:52.040 landownership that are left over from the socialist period there. 1:39:52.160 --> 1:39:55.320 And so what happens is you have these sort of 1:39:55.439 --> 1:39:59.040 like I don't know, like kind of socialist collective air 1:39:59.280 --> 1:40:02.599 like collective land ownership stuff that's like basically subsidizing these 1:40:02.640 --> 1:40:04.880 workers so that they can move into the cities. And 1:40:05.200 --> 1:40:08.880 this means that their bosses have to pay like that 1:40:09.000 --> 1:40:11.560 their their bosses can pay them less because part of 1:40:11.600 --> 1:40:13.720 their income and part of their support network is coming 1:40:13.800 --> 1:40:15.960 from something that's outside of the outside of the such 1:40:16.000 --> 1:40:19.080 a system. And that's what this reminds me of where 1:40:19.120 --> 1:40:21.960 it's like this stuff is happening because of this incredible 1:40:22.000 --> 1:40:25.280 community mobilization and like that's where the support is coming from. 1:40:25.439 --> 1:40:28.439 But that also means that like the actual like the 1:40:28.600 --> 1:40:31.200 organizations who are getting the most money and the most 1:40:31.200 --> 1:40:34.120 resources and who are like you know, who are your bosses, 1:40:34.280 --> 1:40:36.200 don't have to do that because it's it's you know, 1:40:36.280 --> 1:40:38.840 And this is the same thing with your labor to 1:40:39.000 --> 1:40:44.600 where it's it's you have these these like there's this 1:40:44.680 --> 1:40:46.840 way in which solidarity is mobilized as a way to 1:40:46.880 --> 1:40:49.799 sort of like stop gap the fact that these groups 1:40:50.000 --> 1:40:51.640 don't want to pay people and don't want to give 1:40:51.680 --> 1:40:54.360 people the resources that are necessary. And so because it 1:40:54.439 --> 1:40:56.960 has to get done, people will, like people will do it, 1:40:57.160 --> 1:40:59.360 and people will people will donate stuff, people will help support, 1:40:59.360 --> 1:41:02.360 people will do this work. But the thing that it 1:41:02.400 --> 1:41:04.240 winds up doing is that these people are never actually 1:41:04.280 --> 1:41:06.400 forced to see the full consequences of their actions. They 1:41:06.520 --> 1:41:09.479 never never forced to like actually see what what the 1:41:09.479 --> 1:41:11.560 staff and decisions like does what what the fact that 1:41:11.600 --> 1:41:13.639 they don't pay you anything like actually does they don't 1:41:13.640 --> 1:41:16.640 They never have to face it because people are like 1:41:16.840 --> 1:41:20.800 desperately trying to patch the boat together so it doesn't sink. Yeah, 1:41:21.560 --> 1:41:23.080 I've been thinking a lot, like what would it be 1:41:23.200 --> 1:41:26.600 like if you know, one of our higher up managers 1:41:26.880 --> 1:41:30.760 turned away all of these patients and it was them, Yeah, 1:41:31.600 --> 1:41:34.439 what if they knew what it was like? I remember 1:41:34.520 --> 1:41:37.600 picking up the phone a couple of weeks ago, and 1:41:37.760 --> 1:41:39.880 the only thing that I heard when I picked up 1:41:39.920 --> 1:41:43.800 that phone was a blood curdling scream, like this was 1:41:43.880 --> 1:41:47.439 like a scream out of a horror movie. And then 1:41:48.280 --> 1:41:54.560 there were two thoughts and then dead side, And I 1:41:55.000 --> 1:42:00.320 don't know what happened to that person. I don't know 1:42:00.360 --> 1:42:04.160 if they were able to call back. I didn't call 1:42:04.280 --> 1:42:06.760 back because if that person is in danger right now, 1:42:06.840 --> 1:42:09.680 I'm not going to subject them to any more danger. Um. 1:42:10.000 --> 1:42:12.640 There's a reason that when we dial out it's the 1:42:12.800 --> 1:42:20.040 restricted or block numbers, But it's moments like that that 1:42:20.280 --> 1:42:22.200 stick with you. And the fact that we're having more 1:42:22.240 --> 1:42:25.360 and more of these moments where like every other call 1:42:26.000 --> 1:42:30.160 is not like exactly to that level, but like emotionally 1:42:31.200 --> 1:42:35.400 still sticks with you. And it's just for some additional um, 1:42:36.200 --> 1:42:38.200 just like to kind of like build out this kind 1:42:38.240 --> 1:42:43.240 of like misogynistic context that we're working in it's actually 1:42:43.400 --> 1:42:48.879 super common to get people calling in for abortion services, 1:42:48.960 --> 1:42:51.639 like in the middle of a fight with their partner. Um. 1:42:52.760 --> 1:42:56.720 I have had had like men like actively obstructing the 1:42:56.840 --> 1:43:01.560 caller and you know, I'm trying to schedule them, and 1:43:01.640 --> 1:43:04.800 they'll have me on speaker phone and everything and you 1:43:04.880 --> 1:43:08.080 were training me to we and I was like, are 1:43:08.160 --> 1:43:10.519 you able to get to like another place because I 1:43:10.600 --> 1:43:13.720 can't hear you over him and you know, and he's like, 1:43:13.760 --> 1:43:15.680 I'm not doing anything, and I'm like I just need 1:43:15.760 --> 1:43:19.760 to be able to hear you, and like, um, yeah, 1:43:19.880 --> 1:43:22.640 So you do you get that? Because that's you know, 1:43:23.360 --> 1:43:27.280 because there's people want abortions for every reason under this sun, 1:43:27.439 --> 1:43:30.320 and it's totally fine. Um, people get abortions for lots 1:43:30.360 --> 1:43:33.639 of different reasons, but a very common reason is because 1:43:33.760 --> 1:43:36.000 the partner sucks and he's a piece of ship. He 1:43:36.160 --> 1:43:37.960 was abusive and they got to get away from him. 1:43:38.520 --> 1:43:44.519 And that's unfortunately common. And we're on the phone getting that. 1:43:45.520 --> 1:43:47.479 Sometimes we get to meet them in real life too, 1:43:47.560 --> 1:43:50.760 and that's always super fun. I always say that, I 1:43:50.840 --> 1:43:54.000 say to patients constantly that boyfriends either go only go 1:43:54.120 --> 1:43:56.120 one of two ways when we meet them in our clinic. 1:43:56.479 --> 1:44:01.680 They're either wonderful and fantastic and very supportive, um or 1:44:01.840 --> 1:44:08.759 they're just the worst. And I've had patients boyfriends who literally, 1:44:08.920 --> 1:44:12.479 while this person is mid procedure will be like, you're 1:44:12.720 --> 1:44:16.960 being dramatic and you need to stop. And they'll take 1:44:17.000 --> 1:44:21.719 a phone call yeah or something. Let's be playing games 1:44:21.800 --> 1:44:25.360 on their phone and they won't look at anybody. Um 1:44:25.800 --> 1:44:28.960 or they'll actively leave their partner there. And these are 1:44:29.000 --> 1:44:31.960 people that like were their rides. Oh yeah, we've had 1:44:32.120 --> 1:44:35.080 people get abandoned. Yeah. Yeah, they'll just be like I'm done, 1:44:35.320 --> 1:44:40.280 I'm bored, and then they'll just leave, and it's just 1:44:40.400 --> 1:44:44.320 so frustrating. A lot to deal with. We have a 1:44:44.400 --> 1:44:46.960 lot to deal with the staff. And I always tell 1:44:47.040 --> 1:44:50.560 people because I trained um staff at the clinic, and 1:44:50.640 --> 1:44:52.840 I'm always like, we see everything here and when I 1:44:52.880 --> 1:44:55.519 say I say that I need it, we see literally 1:44:55.680 --> 1:44:59.920 everything like you just And I'm sure there are other 1:45:00.280 --> 1:45:04.960 similar health provisions like health services that it's kind of similar. 1:45:05.520 --> 1:45:08.320 We just kind of see everything, um but yeah, we 1:45:08.479 --> 1:45:11.880 we literally see everything because people when people come in 1:45:11.920 --> 1:45:16.280 for an abortion appointment, UM, Like, we don't just talk 1:45:16.360 --> 1:45:18.759 about the procedure, you know, we do birth control counseling, 1:45:18.920 --> 1:45:25.840 STD screening, UM, we provide resources for housing, legal support, UM, therapy, 1:45:25.920 --> 1:45:30.040 finding therapists, and we just we we do so much 1:45:30.320 --> 1:45:34.320 because we're providing a comprehensive health care service. And again, 1:45:34.680 --> 1:45:36.559 like something that we tell patients is that they can 1:45:36.640 --> 1:45:39.840 expect to be here for like four hours, six or 1:45:39.920 --> 1:45:43.439 five hours. Yeah, it depends on the individual patients or 1:45:43.479 --> 1:45:48.280 individual needs UM and what services we can provide for them. 1:45:48.560 --> 1:45:51.840 And sometimes patients need a lot of TLC and we're 1:45:51.880 --> 1:45:56.120 not going to rush that. UM. They're going to get 1:45:56.160 --> 1:45:59.240 the services that they need and they want, and we're 1:45:59.280 --> 1:46:00.920 going to do it on their time because they're very 1:46:01.160 --> 1:46:04.680 but they're very fragile and that's not the time to 1:46:04.880 --> 1:46:09.240 run times through. They're not always so sometimes they're fragile, 1:46:09.400 --> 1:46:11.720 and like sometimes they're like let's get this done, you know, 1:46:11.880 --> 1:46:14.320 I just I just want to the whole range of 1:46:15.000 --> 1:46:19.800 we get. We get. Yeah, but sometimes they're very fragile. Yeah. 1:46:21.720 --> 1:46:23.960 We have had some really confident patients that I really 1:46:24.000 --> 1:46:28.000 like talking to though that they're very yeah, like ready 1:46:28.280 --> 1:46:30.439 to get it over with and are like thanks for 1:46:30.560 --> 1:46:33.479 being here, and they just make my day. I love 1:46:33.560 --> 1:46:35.360 it when we're like, oh, how because we have to 1:46:35.439 --> 1:46:37.200 you know, we have to do like make sure that 1:46:37.479 --> 1:46:39.240 they're not being coerced in everything. And it's like, so, 1:46:39.520 --> 1:46:41.320 you know, how are you feeling about everything? And they're like, 1:46:41.400 --> 1:46:43.839 I feel great, I can't wait to not be pregnant, 1:46:43.960 --> 1:46:46.920 and they're like dancing. Obviously that's nice, but you know, 1:46:47.280 --> 1:46:50.040 in reality, a lot of times when we ask someone 1:46:50.439 --> 1:46:52.360 how they're feeling and what's going on, we're like the 1:46:52.520 --> 1:46:55.719 first person to have asked them that in like two years. 1:46:56.840 --> 1:46:59.720 So then we're like opening up a space, which I'm 1:47:00.280 --> 1:47:03.959 glad we get to do. UM. I love working with patients, 1:47:04.800 --> 1:47:10.120 I love the services we provide. UM. But it's it's 1:47:10.240 --> 1:47:12.160 what what sucks and what's a failure is that I'm 1:47:12.200 --> 1:47:15.000 like the first health care provider to like ask them 1:47:15.040 --> 1:47:19.960 how they're feeling and actually care and like years, like 1:47:20.120 --> 1:47:22.680 we really get something. We get some patients who have 1:47:22.840 --> 1:47:25.240 been like shoot up and spit out by the health 1:47:25.280 --> 1:47:28.160 care system, and no one's ever given a ship and 1:47:28.320 --> 1:47:30.360 we all, we all are very good at giving a ship. 1:47:30.640 --> 1:47:35.879 So um yeah, it really seems like just like everything 1:47:36.000 --> 1:47:39.360 that's wrong with this country gets thrown at like you 1:47:39.600 --> 1:47:45.320 specifically because this is like like every every sort of 1:47:45.439 --> 1:47:47.560 like every bit of racism, every bit of sexism, like 1:47:47.680 --> 1:47:51.880 every like failure of the health care system, like every 1:47:52.120 --> 1:47:54.439 every time, like and it's not even like everything on 1:47:54.520 --> 1:47:57.760 a political level and on a social level that goes 1:47:57.840 --> 1:48:04.840 wrong with people's lives. Yeah, yeah, I think it comes 1:48:04.920 --> 1:48:08.200 up a lot with stigmatized healthcare, um, like abortion and 1:48:08.280 --> 1:48:12.479 then also hormontherapy I imagine was pretty similar. Is you're 1:48:12.560 --> 1:48:15.240 facing a lot of obstacles that are put up by 1:48:15.560 --> 1:48:18.920 the communities, the institution, and the health care system. The 1:48:18.960 --> 1:48:23.280 employer is like your family, there's a Remember we did 1:48:23.280 --> 1:48:27.519 an interview with a promotion activist from Mexico. One of 1:48:27.560 --> 1:48:30.280 the things that she was talking about was, um, she 1:48:30.360 --> 1:48:34.920 called it social decriminalization. Oh is it kind of like 1:48:35.000 --> 1:48:38.200 destigmatizing Like yeah, yeah, but it's like like I think 1:48:38.240 --> 1:48:40.040 she didn't talk about it a huge amount, but it 1:48:40.120 --> 1:48:42.599 seemed like the concept behind it. It was like, Okay, 1:48:42.640 --> 1:48:45.240 so you have legal you have like legal criminalization, but 1:48:45.320 --> 1:48:49.200 then yeah, like social stigmatization means that it's still not 1:48:49.360 --> 1:48:51.960 really legal because there's there's like there's you know, there's 1:48:51.960 --> 1:48:53.640 like social laws against the rights. You have to like 1:48:54.360 --> 1:48:56.360 deal with both and that that struck me as like 1:48:56.400 --> 1:48:59.080 a really I don't know, is it really powerful? Like 1:48:59.600 --> 1:49:02.040 way to think about it, I guess, is it kind 1:49:02.040 --> 1:49:03.760 of like a moral thing where people think like it's 1:49:03.760 --> 1:49:05.320 not okay to get an abortion, so you get like 1:49:05.400 --> 1:49:08.479 that pressure and that yeah, and I think and also 1:49:08.520 --> 1:49:11.040 I mean, like it's not it's it's it's the pressure 1:49:11.120 --> 1:49:13.920 like applied on a person from just like you know, 1:49:14.160 --> 1:49:15.800 like I mean in Mexico is a lot of likely 1:49:15.840 --> 1:49:17.559 people who grow up Catholic, right, But also like it's 1:49:17.560 --> 1:49:19.559 the pressure from your family, is pressure from your friends, 1:49:19.960 --> 1:49:21.560 it's a pressure from everyone around you. And you have 1:49:21.640 --> 1:49:27.800 to like socially like legal because Crystal has been doing 1:49:27.840 --> 1:49:29.680 this work longer than I have, Like I said, I've 1:49:29.760 --> 1:49:32.840 only been working at our current job for a year, 1:49:33.200 --> 1:49:37.920 which I love. UM. But definitely when I started UM, 1:49:38.479 --> 1:49:41.040 there were people in my life that I didn't think, 1:49:41.120 --> 1:49:44.760 we're going to get weird about it because I know 1:49:44.840 --> 1:49:47.360 a lot of liberal people. Most of all of my 1:49:47.479 --> 1:49:54.120 friends are very liberal, very open pro choice, like very 1:49:54.520 --> 1:49:59.360 union friendly. And immediately I noticed that when I started 1:49:59.400 --> 1:50:04.640 talking happily about abortions, people would get really quiet and 1:50:04.840 --> 1:50:10.120 really awkward. Um, and they would be like that's great. 1:50:10.240 --> 1:50:12.280 I'm happy for you. But then that was like it 1:50:12.560 --> 1:50:15.320 like I couldn't and I'd be like no, but like 1:50:15.439 --> 1:50:20.479 abortions and then they're great, They're great. People need them. 1:50:20.520 --> 1:50:23.519 It's an essential service. And so I just upped up 1:50:23.600 --> 1:50:26.599 the anti more and I said about it a lot more. 1:50:30.120 --> 1:50:31.920 This is what I gotta do, gotta weed out the week, 1:50:32.000 --> 1:50:35.640 Like if you're uncomfortable with my job job, I'm not 1:50:35.680 --> 1:50:38.760 going to not talk about it with you. But yeah, 1:50:38.800 --> 1:50:40.760 that is a component to like also on top of 1:50:40.960 --> 1:50:44.080 literally everything else, like um, you know, like how hard 1:50:44.160 --> 1:50:47.240 the job is and how then we gotta like rally 1:50:47.320 --> 1:50:50.000 as a union and get better wages and and then 1:50:50.080 --> 1:50:54.920 we can't even sometimes talk about it because because of stigma, 1:50:55.040 --> 1:50:58.360 like with friends or family, like I can't talk about 1:50:58.520 --> 1:51:00.719 my parents or I can't talk with my parents about 1:51:00.760 --> 1:51:04.000 my job. So it's just like this whole big part 1:51:04.080 --> 1:51:05.799 of my life because I'm pretty much like an abortion 1:51:05.880 --> 1:51:09.040 access activist and I just can't talk about it and 1:51:09.320 --> 1:51:11.639 with them, which is just you know, it's it would 1:51:11.640 --> 1:51:13.439 be nice if I could, but I can't, and I 1:51:13.560 --> 1:51:16.280 just kind of deal with it. And then also um, 1:51:17.439 --> 1:51:21.080 even tiny normal situations like getting a haircut or getting 1:51:21.080 --> 1:51:24.160 an uber. It's people ask you what you do all 1:51:24.240 --> 1:51:28.280 the time. I lie every time. But that's a decision 1:51:28.360 --> 1:51:31.320 you have to make because sometimes I lie and sometimes 1:51:31.360 --> 1:51:33.000 I don't know what it is. I'm like, I'm gonna 1:51:33.000 --> 1:51:35.840 tell the truth, and it's like a gamble because I've 1:51:35.880 --> 1:51:38.360 told the truth before and then an uber driver starts 1:51:38.400 --> 1:51:40.719 praying for me. And then I've told the truth before 1:51:40.800 --> 1:51:43.840 and had someone um like open up to me and 1:51:43.880 --> 1:51:45.920 then we have a great conversation. And then I've told 1:51:45.960 --> 1:51:48.680 the truth before and had really awkward conversations were like 1:51:48.680 --> 1:51:51.400 I support abortion. I think some people have too many 1:51:51.640 --> 1:51:53.040 and I don't. And it's like, why are you telling 1:51:53.080 --> 1:51:57.120 me to get out of here? Um? Yeah, this was 1:51:57.160 --> 1:52:00.120 a decision that I made for myself personally because of this. 1:52:00.320 --> 1:52:03.080 One time I took an uber to work and I 1:52:03.240 --> 1:52:07.080 mentioned what I did and then that guy, um, she 1:52:07.160 --> 1:52:10.679 started like talking about me to the antis in front 1:52:10.720 --> 1:52:16.080 of our job and they were like talking about it 1:52:16.240 --> 1:52:18.200 was it was actually it was a woman. It was 1:52:18.360 --> 1:52:21.800 a it was a female uber driver. I mentioned this 1:52:21.960 --> 1:52:25.160 to her, UM, and she went up and was like, 1:52:25.360 --> 1:52:28.000 I think that like what you guys are doing. It's 1:52:28.080 --> 1:52:31.479 like she was talking to the anti specifically, she was like, 1:52:31.560 --> 1:52:33.439 what you're doing is too aggressive. You need to buy 1:52:33.520 --> 1:52:37.479 the building next door. Oh my god, set up shop 1:52:37.600 --> 1:52:40.560 there and make it less antagonizing so people want to 1:52:40.600 --> 1:52:43.280 listen to you. And then immediately in the group chat, 1:52:43.320 --> 1:52:45.400 everybody was like, who's talking to the antis? And I'm like, 1:52:45.600 --> 1:52:50.000 I just mentioned that I worked there. Um, it was 1:52:50.040 --> 1:52:52.439 just a lot. So after that, I was like, on 1:52:52.600 --> 1:52:54.640 my way to work at the very least, I'm just 1:52:54.760 --> 1:52:57.160 not going to talk about it. I'm gonna be like, 1:52:57.280 --> 1:53:02.000 I work at a doctor's office downtown. It's like risk assessment. Yeah. 1:53:02.040 --> 1:53:05.080 I feel like the anti's learned my name by listening 1:53:05.120 --> 1:53:07.160 for the uber drivers and I've got uber drivers. They're like, 1:53:07.400 --> 1:53:09.680 who are you? What's your name? And I'm like, I'm 1:53:09.680 --> 1:53:11.400 not going to tell you because there's a dude standing 1:53:11.479 --> 1:53:16.280 there that wants to follow me. So you're gonna deal 1:53:16.360 --> 1:53:19.320 with that aubrew driver. Yeah, we gotta switch up patterns 1:53:19.360 --> 1:53:23.120 when we come into work sometimes too, And I do 1:53:23.320 --> 1:53:26.240 what I actually started, Um, when I call an uber 1:53:26.320 --> 1:53:28.880 to work because I don't have a car all the 1:53:28.960 --> 1:53:32.320 time because I don't get paid that much. But when 1:53:32.360 --> 1:53:36.719 I have to uber to work. Um, I've started getting 1:53:36.760 --> 1:53:41.559 dropped off like somewhere else and just waking because it's 1:53:41.600 --> 1:53:45.760 just too too many problems, too much Like got I 1:53:45.800 --> 1:53:48.160 get dropped off at like a different location, like a 1:53:48.240 --> 1:53:51.080 couple of blocks away from work, at a different spot usually, 1:53:51.640 --> 1:53:54.680 and then I just walk in, Like if you you 1:53:54.800 --> 1:53:56.360 might just want to go to work and drink your 1:53:56.400 --> 1:53:58.080 coffee and you have like your uber driver joined in 1:53:58.080 --> 1:54:05.200 the protest outside. Let's like and it's worse because they 1:54:05.280 --> 1:54:07.400 know they picked you up, they know where you live, 1:54:08.040 --> 1:54:10.880 and they know your name, your name. They want to 1:54:10.880 --> 1:54:17.680 shout your name out the door. It's like because yeah, 1:54:17.680 --> 1:54:19.600 the protesters learned my name and they like chant my 1:54:19.680 --> 1:54:22.040 name and we're like I'll walk by and like the 1:54:22.120 --> 1:54:24.240 whispering my name, I'm like, what is this? This is 1:54:24.360 --> 1:54:27.160 kind of this is kind of kinky, but like yeah, 1:54:29.240 --> 1:54:31.280 and we decide that they don't actually know who you are. 1:54:31.320 --> 1:54:34.440 They just like everybody with banks, yeah, yeah, yeah, So 1:54:34.640 --> 1:54:38.440 for the listeners, I have like pretty blunt banks. Yeah, 1:54:38.520 --> 1:54:40.640 but I'm not the only worker in the building obviously 1:54:40.640 --> 1:54:42.680 who has banks. But so everyone in the building it's 1:54:42.720 --> 1:54:46.960 like Crystal Crystal, I think everybody with banks, what's your 1:54:46.960 --> 1:54:53.280 worker named Crystal. I guess that's reassuring, but also bad 1:54:53.400 --> 1:54:56.640 for other people with banks because they might get killed. Yeah, 1:54:58.640 --> 1:55:00.760 it's like funny, but not funny. I'm he got We 1:55:00.840 --> 1:55:05.600 try to make light of it real we have to. Yeah, 1:55:05.720 --> 1:55:07.440 So the other thing I still wanted to ask about 1:55:07.520 --> 1:55:11.040 was Crystal. Yeah, you've had like the bosses doing disciplinary 1:55:11.080 --> 1:55:14.160 action for stuff that you've been doing in terms of 1:55:14.240 --> 1:55:15.880 unions stuff. Were gonna talk about that a little bit 1:55:16.280 --> 1:55:19.360 technically pre disciplinary, but I mean, like what does it matter, 1:55:19.360 --> 1:55:22.320 because like the point is the same, is is intimidation. 1:55:23.920 --> 1:55:27.360 It's very easy to do, is to get your lawyer, 1:55:27.440 --> 1:55:30.600 get your HR and have them talk to someone and 1:55:30.600 --> 1:55:32.680 then everybody knows about it because everybody talks at work, 1:55:32.760 --> 1:55:37.240 and bad gas travels fast and UM then they and 1:55:37.680 --> 1:55:41.240 the whole idea is to to scare people into not 1:55:41.400 --> 1:55:46.920 talking to reporters, not talking to UM people about what's 1:55:46.960 --> 1:55:51.680 going on. And I feel like it's difficult to talk 1:55:51.760 --> 1:55:55.880 about what's been happening like this is like I keep 1:55:55.920 --> 1:55:58.720 saying it, it's a it's a national health crisis. It's 1:55:58.760 --> 1:56:02.680 a disaster. It's it's a tidal wave, it's a hurricane, 1:56:03.360 --> 1:56:06.160 and it's generational trauma. We're using all of these words, 1:56:06.320 --> 1:56:08.760 and then like I feel like being I'm pressured into 1:56:08.840 --> 1:56:13.240 not even talking about it because I'm talking about everything. 1:56:13.280 --> 1:56:16.200 I'm talking about how we're understaffed, I'm talking about how 1:56:16.840 --> 1:56:20.680 we're seeing patients from all over. I'm talking about, um 1:56:22.080 --> 1:56:26.800 how how traumatizing it is. And for whatever reason, it's 1:56:26.880 --> 1:56:31.600 just more comforting for some of these organizations to hide 1:56:31.680 --> 1:56:35.320 under the table with their lawyer and just like shaking 1:56:35.360 --> 1:56:37.360 their boots and say like we could be sued for this, 1:56:37.440 --> 1:56:39.440 and we could be sued for that, and what if 1:56:39.520 --> 1:56:41.680 that happens? What if this happens? And like for me, 1:56:41.840 --> 1:56:43.920 it's like, well, you know what, what what if someone 1:56:44.160 --> 1:56:48.640 dies because we can't get them in and they can't 1:56:48.680 --> 1:56:52.960 get to us because of legislation and there being no 1:56:53.680 --> 1:56:57.280 health care infrastructure because part of healthcare is also getting 1:56:57.280 --> 1:57:00.760 to the appointment. UM. So it's like that that exists 1:57:00.960 --> 1:57:03.200 and like people are suffering because of it. Like I 1:57:03.520 --> 1:57:05.840 just can't keep my mouth shut about that. And I 1:57:06.000 --> 1:57:08.280 definitely feel like as like somebody a member on the 1:57:08.360 --> 1:57:12.200 bargaining team, and I also am ced our rally. UM, 1:57:12.400 --> 1:57:14.360 I feel like there's been a lot of pressure on 1:57:14.440 --> 1:57:18.000 me and my big mouth. Um, I feel like they 1:57:18.040 --> 1:57:21.360 were trying to intimidate me and scare me. And I'm 1:57:21.960 --> 1:57:26.000 blessed for a couple of reasons. Number one, um my dad, 1:57:26.680 --> 1:57:29.920 who is otherwise conservative and doesn't support anything that I do, 1:57:30.240 --> 1:57:32.840 but he was a union stewart and growing up, I 1:57:32.880 --> 1:57:35.400 would see him resolving conflict as a union stewart, and 1:57:35.600 --> 1:57:39.560 that was very influential and inspirational to me because it 1:57:39.720 --> 1:57:42.120 really instilled some good values, even though we don't have 1:57:42.520 --> 1:57:47.760 the same values obviously, but and you didn't, but there's that, 1:57:48.000 --> 1:57:50.200 Like I I developed like a strong sense of labor 1:57:50.320 --> 1:57:54.720 rights and labor activism from him, and then too, my 1:57:54.920 --> 1:57:59.480 first career choice was a middle school teacher, so I've 1:57:59.520 --> 1:58:02.080 taught seven in the eighth grade for about seven years. 1:58:02.280 --> 1:58:04.920 So like, literally nothing scares me, because after you've talked 1:58:04.960 --> 1:58:09.120 to a cafeteria full of a d twenty thirteen year olds, 1:58:09.240 --> 1:58:12.360 it's like that's it. That's like the scariest thing ever. Um. 1:58:13.160 --> 1:58:18.840 So I'm not really afraid of the bullying and the intimidation. Um, 1:58:19.680 --> 1:58:22.400 which is good because it definitely is very effective and 1:58:22.440 --> 1:58:26.800 I'm sure a lot of people would be pissing themselves 1:58:27.040 --> 1:58:31.520 but um, I'm pissing uself a little bit, but I'm fine, Um, 1:58:31.600 --> 1:58:36.200 I have a second job after all that, Like that's 1:58:36.280 --> 1:58:40.720 like fun, you have to work another job. Like they're 1:58:40.720 --> 1:58:42.160 like one of the things I noticed is they're they're 1:58:42.160 --> 1:58:44.800 doing they're doing the working you for thirty five hours 1:58:44.880 --> 1:58:51.480 and not forty because yeah, benefits. I don't know, like 1:58:51.560 --> 1:58:53.440 the impression that I get from this, and I think 1:58:53.440 --> 1:58:57.280 that makes you really angry is like it really feels 1:58:57.320 --> 1:58:59.800 like like the like how worried they are about being suited. 1:58:59.840 --> 1:59:01.840 It feels like like the fact that that's sort of 1:59:01.920 --> 1:59:05.160 like the basis of all this, and just like they 1:59:06.120 --> 1:59:09.640 the they're behaving as if they've already lost and they're 1:59:09.680 --> 1:59:11.880 trying to sort of like like claw and hold onto 1:59:11.920 --> 1:59:15.200 whatever they have. But it's like if if if you're 1:59:15.440 --> 1:59:18.320 if you're fighting from the position of we have already lost, 1:59:18.360 --> 1:59:20.760 you're you're just gonna keep losing. And it's like and 1:59:20.960 --> 1:59:24.520 and and you know it's not just that it's like okay, 1:59:24.600 --> 1:59:27.160 like if they were just doing that, but then you know, 1:59:27.920 --> 1:59:32.440 like not passing, like not literally forcing everyone else who's 1:59:32.640 --> 1:59:35.040 working with them to also be in the same sort 1:59:35.040 --> 1:59:36.760 of defeatism, Like it would be different, but it's like 1:59:37.000 --> 1:59:39.120 it's like no that they're they're then inflicting that on you, 1:59:39.280 --> 1:59:44.480 and it's just infuriating. Yeah. I think this also UM 1:59:44.640 --> 1:59:50.640 to segue to something that actually had happened to me today. UM. 1:59:51.000 --> 1:59:55.160 As part of UM, you know, being in a call 1:59:55.240 --> 2:00:00.320 center for an abortion provider, is that we think this 2:00:00.480 --> 2:00:05.800 instills like a sense of fear for providers as well, 2:00:06.680 --> 2:00:09.120 UM for their own personal safety. It just makes it 2:00:09.400 --> 2:00:14.000 feel bigger because you have all these other people would 2:00:14.040 --> 2:00:17.280 be like, well, it's it's like these are all these 2:00:17.320 --> 2:00:19.080 things that could happen to you, this is what might 2:00:19.160 --> 2:00:22.000 happen to you. UM. And I think that it makes 2:00:22.440 --> 2:00:28.320 providers have to evaluate, you know, their own risks to 2:00:28.600 --> 2:00:32.600 what they do. UM. And if you are somebody with 2:00:32.920 --> 2:00:36.320 not as strong values for this work, like it's not 2:00:36.440 --> 2:00:41.440 a strong opinion towards this work, it causes UM, you 2:00:41.600 --> 2:00:45.680 to just neglect patients because UM. I had an incident 2:00:45.760 --> 2:00:49.320 that happened today where we had somebody call UM from 2:00:49.640 --> 2:00:56.880 a different state where abortion is not legal, and they 2:00:57.480 --> 2:00:59.880 had their best friend in the car with them I 2:01:00.000 --> 2:01:03.080 and they were like, my friend is like actively hemorrhaging. 2:01:03.240 --> 2:01:06.960 She's been like bleeding for days. Um, do you have 2:01:07.120 --> 2:01:09.600 like an emergency appointment? Like we could drive up to 2:01:09.720 --> 2:01:13.080 p A. UM, Like what do I do? She's been 2:01:13.200 --> 2:01:15.640 to her doctor three different times and they refused to 2:01:15.680 --> 2:01:21.080 treat her because like viable, And in my brain, I'm 2:01:21.160 --> 2:01:24.760 just shaking because I'm like, this is a this is 2:01:24.920 --> 2:01:29.040 your job, Like you're the first thing as a doctor 2:01:29.400 --> 2:01:32.160 is to make sure that your patient doesn't die, and 2:01:32.280 --> 2:01:38.840 they might die. And I'm not a doctor, UM. And 2:01:39.560 --> 2:01:42.760 so I was like, if your friend is losing so 2:01:42.960 --> 2:01:47.200 much blood that you are worried for her safety, UM. 2:01:48.240 --> 2:01:50.000 I know on the phone they were talking about how 2:01:50.120 --> 2:01:53.160 she felt like she it was like getting dizzy and 2:01:53.320 --> 2:01:56.360 like losing a ridiculous amount of blood. And I was like, 2:01:56.480 --> 2:02:00.280 I strongly suggest that you go to a hospital where 2:02:00.760 --> 2:02:03.880 um abortion is legal, since you're planning on, you know, 2:02:04.120 --> 2:02:08.840 coming up for an abortion anyway, UM, because in that case, 2:02:09.040 --> 2:02:12.880 they would have to treat you no matter what. UM. 2:02:14.240 --> 2:02:19.280 And if you know it's going to result in an abortion, 2:02:19.840 --> 2:02:22.160 then at the very least you're protected because you're hearing 2:02:22.160 --> 2:02:24.320 your cross state lines. And I'm like, because any any 2:02:24.440 --> 2:02:29.080 hospital has to treat you, UM for something that's serious 2:02:29.320 --> 2:02:34.160 and it's it's scary to think that there are definitely 2:02:34.200 --> 2:02:38.520 other other providers and other places where this kind of 2:02:38.640 --> 2:02:44.800 thing is also happening. Um. And I just worry that, 2:02:46.520 --> 2:02:51.120 you know, um, what if I was ten minutes, Like 2:02:51.320 --> 2:02:53.120 what if I was two minutes late? What if I 2:02:53.240 --> 2:02:57.480 was thirty seconds? Like what if I told her to wait? Um? 2:02:57.800 --> 2:03:01.320 Like some places kind of have to um or I 2:03:01.400 --> 2:03:03.480 told her that I couldn't help her, like some places 2:03:03.600 --> 2:03:08.720 kind of have to with these laws. I don't think 2:03:09.400 --> 2:03:14.360 that I could live with the guilt of that. M 2:03:14.600 --> 2:03:19.320 hm um. Yeah, it's just another another added trauma to 2:03:19.480 --> 2:03:23.600 the day. And I feel like a lot of people 2:03:24.520 --> 2:03:27.080 said and like these people suck. But a lot of 2:03:27.160 --> 2:03:29.320 people were saying that, like stuff like this wouldn't happen. 2:03:29.400 --> 2:03:32.440 I know for a fact that I had so many 2:03:32.520 --> 2:03:35.840 I'm very vocal about origin access in my work, and 2:03:35.920 --> 2:03:39.200 I've had people tell me like people won't be hemorrhaging 2:03:39.400 --> 2:03:42.360 and driving across state lines, and I'm like, absolutely, they 2:03:42.400 --> 2:03:45.440 will be. Absolutely. And this was like a month ago, 2:03:45.560 --> 2:03:47.800 and then well more than a month ago. Time goes fast, 2:03:47.880 --> 2:03:50.400 but like this was like prior to dobs, I should say, 2:03:50.840 --> 2:03:54.600 but um, and it's just when they were telling me like, 2:03:54.640 --> 2:03:55.880 I don't believe you, and I'm like, what do you 2:03:55.960 --> 2:03:58.200 mean you don't believe me? This is the most believable thing. 2:03:58.800 --> 2:04:01.400 And then to have had people say that it wouldn't 2:04:01.440 --> 2:04:03.240 happen and to call me a liar and like a 2:04:03.320 --> 2:04:07.160 drama queen, and then now to like, I mean, I 2:04:07.320 --> 2:04:09.000 wasn't I didn't get a call like that, but like 2:04:09.080 --> 2:04:11.760 to hear like my co worker and like and then 2:04:11.840 --> 2:04:14.320 just like hearing it happen elsewhere, because like you know, 2:04:14.440 --> 2:04:18.800 we have comrades and and union UM siblings in Ohio 2:04:19.320 --> 2:04:22.320 UM with other unions and they've talked about it happening, 2:04:22.600 --> 2:04:26.960 and just so hearing my my um my peers talking 2:04:27.040 --> 2:04:30.280 about it and just knowing like we knew this would happen, 2:04:30.400 --> 2:04:32.480 and we just it feels like we just like walked 2:04:33.080 --> 2:04:36.120 right into it with no plan. There's still no plan. 2:04:36.480 --> 2:04:39.400 People are still in cars drive across state lines while 2:04:39.440 --> 2:04:44.160 actively hemorrhaging. And I don't know what it will be 2:04:44.320 --> 2:04:52.320 done other than US workers really stepping up and hopefully 2:04:52.520 --> 2:04:57.720 the community then supporting us UM, because we can't do 2:04:57.800 --> 2:05:00.640 it without community support, like like Elizabeth was saying before, 2:05:00.760 --> 2:05:05.080 you know, oh and Elizabeth was actually talking before about 2:05:05.080 --> 2:05:07.000 the food that we've been getting from the community, and 2:05:07.160 --> 2:05:09.640 this also made me think of what it looks like 2:05:09.720 --> 2:05:11.800 to turn up for workers in general, because you know, 2:05:12.520 --> 2:05:15.240 we're all workers here, and like, we know what it 2:05:15.280 --> 2:05:17.760 feels like where you're too busy to stop and eat 2:05:17.920 --> 2:05:20.200 and you're just going through your day and you're running 2:05:20.240 --> 2:05:24.040 on fumes and you're exhausted. But the fact that our 2:05:24.080 --> 2:05:26.360 community was like feeding has been feeding us and like 2:05:26.440 --> 2:05:28.520 turning up for us to the point where like I 2:05:28.720 --> 2:05:32.920 was having good healthy food confused me from day to 2:05:33.080 --> 2:05:36.920 day in that well since then and then it really 2:05:37.000 --> 2:05:39.400 got me wondering, like, is this is what it likes? 2:05:39.600 --> 2:05:41.400 This is what it's like when you have well fed 2:05:41.480 --> 2:05:45.240 workers and that are cared for. So, you know, if 2:05:45.280 --> 2:05:47.840 the only people answering the call for these these people 2:05:47.840 --> 2:05:52.280 who need healthcare are us, We're exhausted, we don't have 2:05:52.400 --> 2:05:54.720 time to go out and get food, especially since we've 2:05:54.720 --> 2:05:57.560 got people following us down the street whatever, um, while 2:05:57.600 --> 2:06:00.560 we go get a hot dog trying to bother us, um. 2:06:01.040 --> 2:06:03.040 But then to have like the community bringing us food 2:06:04.320 --> 2:06:06.800 and then being well fed, it was just like, oh 2:06:06.920 --> 2:06:09.560 my god, what if all workers were well fed and 2:06:09.720 --> 2:06:12.880 all communities turned up for their workers. Wouldn't that be 2:06:13.040 --> 2:06:17.280 so nice? And it got me thinking like like, wow, 2:06:17.360 --> 2:06:21.200 this is like a really positive thing that is not 2:06:21.360 --> 2:06:24.000 really talked about. Like I mean, we talked about feeding people, 2:06:24.080 --> 2:06:27.920 but like what if workers were were well fed? Like 2:06:28.080 --> 2:06:31.520 I don't like healthcare workers. It's just it's been really nice. 2:06:31.560 --> 2:06:34.600 And I love our community. Um, I love our city. 2:06:35.880 --> 2:06:39.600 I love the organizations that have been organizing it. We're 2:06:39.640 --> 2:06:45.360 incredibly grateful. Yeah, they're fantastic, They're they're so good to us. Um. 2:06:45.640 --> 2:06:47.480 I know that for those couple of weeks where we 2:06:47.920 --> 2:06:51.600 had food in our breakroom, UM, I think we worked 2:06:52.120 --> 2:06:56.120 a lot better. Everybody was in much better moods. I 2:06:56.200 --> 2:06:58.560 didn't get shaky hands, you know. Yeah, we were all 2:06:58.600 --> 2:07:01.160 like really excited to see each other and talk to 2:07:01.240 --> 2:07:04.560 each other and talk about our days. Um just over 2:07:04.720 --> 2:07:09.160 like actually good coffee. And it was just a huge 2:07:09.200 --> 2:07:13.320 morale boost to have the community supporting the workers. And 2:07:13.360 --> 2:07:15.600 then now we have the community coming to our union 2:07:15.720 --> 2:07:17.360 rally saying we support you, we want you to get 2:07:17.360 --> 2:07:19.240 paid more, we want you to have better staff, and 2:07:19.360 --> 2:07:24.440 that is just like so necessary right now because we 2:07:24.600 --> 2:07:28.200 need we need the community. We need everyone. What else 2:07:28.320 --> 2:07:32.680 can listeners who are who are like want to help 2:07:32.800 --> 2:07:35.360 but are not in the industry do just uh to 2:07:35.440 --> 2:07:38.400 support you all well? And I guess on two levels, 2:07:38.480 --> 2:07:41.160 like one is like like, what what can they do 2:07:41.280 --> 2:07:43.720 sort of in general in their communities? And then to 2:07:43.960 --> 2:07:46.720 specifically to help y'all with your fight with the hospital, 2:07:48.400 --> 2:07:52.400 the clinic just a little clinic, just a tiny, little, 2:07:52.520 --> 2:07:57.560 tiny little guy. UM. I know that for us specifically, 2:07:58.160 --> 2:08:01.360 I think, do what you do best. If you are 2:08:01.400 --> 2:08:06.000 a person who likes to make art, um, we love 2:08:06.200 --> 2:08:10.040 seeing your drawings. We love seeing like your handwritten notes. UM. 2:08:10.120 --> 2:08:12.120 If you're a person who makes a really good cup 2:08:12.200 --> 2:08:14.640 of coffee um, or if you're a cafe who just 2:08:14.760 --> 2:08:18.240 wants to bring us coffee, we love coffee. UM. If 2:08:18.360 --> 2:08:22.200 you're a bakery that wants to donate like donuts or 2:08:22.640 --> 2:08:28.680 you know, cheesecakes, we will happily eat them. Um. Yeah. 2:08:30.040 --> 2:08:33.839 If you want to, like send us a Bluetooth speaker 2:08:33.920 --> 2:08:36.880 so we can listen to music during the day. Whatever 2:08:37.040 --> 2:08:40.840 you do best is what we would love as long 2:08:40.920 --> 2:08:43.280 as it comes from like you, comes from your heart 2:08:43.440 --> 2:08:48.120 like we love um. Weighted blankets and fluffy things and 2:08:48.360 --> 2:08:53.360 snacks and just um, all of those things that come 2:08:53.680 --> 2:08:56.640 like from the heart make us feel like it's worth 2:08:56.720 --> 2:09:00.480 it UM at least from the community UM. And things 2:09:00.560 --> 2:09:03.640 also that we don't have to think about UM because 2:09:03.760 --> 2:09:06.120 as beautiful as make your own taco kids are, we 2:09:06.240 --> 2:09:08.080 still have to have time to make our own talks 2:09:08.400 --> 2:09:11.560 the taco. Yeah. So if if there's anything that you 2:09:11.600 --> 2:09:13.520 could just like throw at us, and it's already like 2:09:13.800 --> 2:09:18.400 put together, like assembled, has very little thought, like a UM, 2:09:18.600 --> 2:09:21.920 a zombie or a toddler or a burnt out abortion worker. 2:09:22.040 --> 2:09:24.720 Can you know put two and two together? We love 2:09:24.800 --> 2:09:29.360 those two. And you could also follow our union UM. 2:09:29.520 --> 2:09:35.760 And there's actually a bunch of abortion care worker unions. 2:09:35.960 --> 2:09:37.800 We're not the only one, we are many. We are 2:09:37.880 --> 2:09:40.680 legion UM. So you can really follow any of us 2:09:40.720 --> 2:09:43.560 and just boost what we need because right right now 2:09:43.600 --> 2:09:45.920 the p p f A union like New York City 2:09:45.920 --> 2:09:48.960 San Francisco is needing a lot of boosting what they're 2:09:49.000 --> 2:09:51.400 what they're doing, goot Mocker union needs a lot of 2:09:51.440 --> 2:09:54.880 love and support. But our union UI Local six night 2:09:54.960 --> 2:09:59.840 six UM. Our social media is at p p w 2:10:00.160 --> 2:10:04.400 P Union UM not to self promote, but if you 2:10:04.520 --> 2:10:06.920 go on there. There are videos of our rally and 2:10:07.040 --> 2:10:10.000 I need uter is shaped paniata if anything wants to 2:10:10.000 --> 2:10:12.520 see us busted open. It's pretty good, it's pretty cool. 2:10:13.200 --> 2:10:17.480 We busted open a uterus shaped pinata at our rally 2:10:17.920 --> 2:10:23.160 and as we brought up a UM union family child 2:10:23.160 --> 2:10:25.880 because it was it was the son of a local 2:10:26.000 --> 2:10:28.640 union member. We brought him up and we helped him 2:10:28.640 --> 2:10:33.160 splash the panada, the uterus panada, and as he was swinging, 2:10:33.320 --> 2:10:35.480 it was like, this is what we think about low wages, 2:10:35.800 --> 2:10:37.720 this is what we think about scot is, this is 2:10:37.760 --> 2:10:40.640 what we think about understaffing. And then candy just like 2:10:40.800 --> 2:10:43.920 burst out of it. It was like a normal birth, 2:10:44.000 --> 2:10:51.080 you know, Yeah, glitter and candy pop out, very realistic. Actually, 2:10:51.080 --> 2:10:55.040 abortions to people don't know this, but glitter always comes 2:10:55.080 --> 2:10:58.720 out during an abortion can confirm there's gonna be there's 2:10:58.760 --> 2:11:02.520 gonna be like three people who actually believe you. They're 2:11:02.560 --> 2:11:05.040 gonna they're gonna like tell their friend this and their 2:11:05.080 --> 2:11:07.480 friends gonna be like, what are you talking about there? 2:11:07.520 --> 2:11:09.240 You're like, no, no, I heard it on a podcast, 2:11:09.440 --> 2:11:12.560 or like the servis sprays glitter when you when you 2:11:12.680 --> 2:11:17.000 touch it, dilating the cervix is really just opening it 2:11:17.160 --> 2:11:21.360 up so that it litter come out. Yeah, I guess. Well, okay, 2:11:21.400 --> 2:11:25.280 so logistics wise, Yeah, if you send me links, I 2:11:25.360 --> 2:11:29.880 will we will put them in the episode description. Um. Yeah, 2:11:30.000 --> 2:11:33.360 and yeah, I guess do you two have anything else 2:11:33.400 --> 2:11:38.280 that you want to say? Um? I don't think so, 2:11:38.400 --> 2:11:42.120 other than like thank you for having us. Um, this 2:11:42.360 --> 2:11:46.920 is super fun. We had a great time. Yeah, me too. Yeah, 2:11:46.960 --> 2:11:49.800 it was good. I love talking about abortion. Oh yeah, 2:11:50.320 --> 2:11:51.960 oh my god. Me and Elizabeth on the phone, just 2:11:52.000 --> 2:11:55.160 gabbing away and we'll we'll be on twenty on a 2:11:55.240 --> 2:11:58.440 call twenty minutes talking to like someone who who needs help, 2:11:58.520 --> 2:12:00.480 and then we'll like get off and then we'll be 2:12:00.520 --> 2:12:04.400 gavin about whatever for like ten minutes and mostly TikTok's 2:12:05.000 --> 2:12:08.280 mostly TikTok. But um, yeah, I know. It's it's so 2:12:08.480 --> 2:12:11.360 important too that we can be platformed as like abortion 2:12:11.400 --> 2:12:14.760 care workers, as union members, as people working in a 2:12:14.840 --> 2:12:18.440 stigmatized field during a crisis. It's very it means so much, 2:12:18.560 --> 2:12:21.480 and it's meant a lot to me to see how 2:12:21.560 --> 2:12:25.840 many abortion episodes this podcasts, Like, yeah, you're really cover 2:12:26.000 --> 2:12:28.400 and everything. Yeah, I was looking them up and I 2:12:28.480 --> 2:12:31.440 was like there's it's it's every angle of abortion care 2:12:31.520 --> 2:12:33.920 and I love it. We love to see buy a 2:12:34.000 --> 2:12:37.000 knowledge too, and we love to see it. You're gonna 2:12:37.040 --> 2:12:39.240 run out of topics so eventually, but you really should 2:12:39.240 --> 2:12:43.400 have an episode about the serve ex glitter. Yeah, so 2:12:43.560 --> 2:12:45.360 this will this will be our Actually wait are you 2:12:45.600 --> 2:12:48.960 full episodes? Actually booked man be the second apul fulls episode. 2:12:49.600 --> 2:12:56.360 More people need to know about this phenomenon alright, that 2:12:56.480 --> 2:12:59.480 this this has been naked happen here. Uh, you can 2:12:59.520 --> 2:13:02.200 find us in the places where you know where, defind 2:13:02.320 --> 2:13:04.040 us because we see this at the end of every episode. 2:13:05.120 --> 2:13:26.000 H yeah, thank you too again, thank you it could 2:13:26.080 --> 2:13:30.040 happen here is a podcast. Sometimes it's about good stuff 2:13:30.280 --> 2:13:34.360 and ways people can fix things. Sometimes it's about frightening 2:13:34.440 --> 2:13:38.160 stuff like today, today's a scary episode. Joining me to 2:13:38.280 --> 2:13:42.960 scare everybody is Professor Calvin Norman. Calvin, how are you 2:13:43.040 --> 2:13:46.480 doing today? Oh, Robert, I do well some days, but 2:13:46.600 --> 2:13:50.360 most days not. I work on climate change, invasive species, 2:13:50.760 --> 2:13:54.360 forest health issues, a chronic waste disease. So their problems 2:13:54.440 --> 2:13:57.280 with those things. Okay, well, actually, last time were we 2:13:57.360 --> 2:13:59.760 talked abou climate change? Solve that? So We're We're good. 2:14:00.880 --> 2:14:04.280 That's all. We locked that down right, Yeah, you get 2:14:04.560 --> 2:14:06.280 we got the we got the eels fed. That was 2:14:06.320 --> 2:14:08.840 the problem. Oh yeah, yeah, there's like a car company 2:14:08.840 --> 2:14:13.680 that's electric. We're nailing it, so I get. We had 2:14:13.720 --> 2:14:15.720 you on the show once before to talk about how 2:14:15.880 --> 2:14:20.000 the forest is bad. Uh yeah, um, still bad. Still 2:14:20.040 --> 2:14:21.960 a lot of problems in the forest, as the people 2:14:21.960 --> 2:14:26.280 who are watching their forests burn can probably uh say, 2:14:26.520 --> 2:14:28.640 although there's other problems than that, as we talk about 2:14:28.640 --> 2:14:30.760 in your episode. Didn't mean an email a while back. 2:14:31.000 --> 2:14:32.320 It took a bit for me to get my ship 2:14:32.400 --> 2:14:34.560 together to have you back on. But it was a 2:14:34.680 --> 2:14:37.880 frightening email about a disease sweeping through the country that 2:14:38.000 --> 2:14:41.440 could have massive effects on the lives of everybody listening 2:14:41.520 --> 2:14:44.440 to this. Um, And it's not one of the diseases 2:14:44.480 --> 2:14:46.600 that you're all thinking about. I know, there's a couple 2:14:46.640 --> 2:14:49.400 of things that meet that decision that that like, there's 2:14:49.440 --> 2:14:52.120 a couple of different diseases running on checked throughout the 2:14:52.240 --> 2:14:55.320 United States at the moment and the world. Um, we 2:14:55.400 --> 2:14:57.440 are not talking about either of the ones that are 2:14:57.520 --> 2:15:00.520 big in the news right now. We're gonna talk chronic 2:15:00.640 --> 2:15:03.040 wasting disease. Calvin, you want to kind of introduce that 2:15:03.160 --> 2:15:05.120 concept to the people, because this was not something I 2:15:05.240 --> 2:15:07.600 really I had heard of it, but I didn't. It 2:15:07.720 --> 2:15:10.280 was just kind of like, you know, animals have weird diseases, right, 2:15:10.360 --> 2:15:12.680 cats get you know, lymphoma or whatever. I never thought 2:15:12.720 --> 2:15:14.840 about it much as a as a thing that was 2:15:14.880 --> 2:15:17.320 a problem other than a problem for some deer. But 2:15:17.440 --> 2:15:20.880 it is. It is quite an issue. Yeah, yeah, it's 2:15:21.240 --> 2:15:24.320 if it stays in dear, I will be happy. Let's 2:15:24.360 --> 2:15:27.520 put it like that. So, um, we're gonna actually like 2:15:27.640 --> 2:15:30.160 do a little throwback to the past year. Watch watch 2:15:30.200 --> 2:15:35.760 out an We're gonna go back to the nineties. All right, 2:15:35.760 --> 2:15:37.200 I'm gonna go We're gonna get I'm gonna get my 2:15:37.200 --> 2:15:40.080 shoulder pads on, I'm gonna get my X Files poster 2:15:40.600 --> 2:15:44.280 stuck up on the wall. I'm gonna vote for a 2:15:44.640 --> 2:15:50.200 serial sexual abuser. Well that's that's every decade. Um, okay, sorry, So, 2:15:50.520 --> 2:15:53.040 so chronic wasting diseases a pry and the reason we're 2:15:53.040 --> 2:15:54.680 going back to is a prime disease. And the reason 2:15:54.720 --> 2:15:57.000 we're going back to the nineties is to to look 2:15:57.040 --> 2:16:00.120 at the the most the biggest like reason any one 2:16:00.160 --> 2:16:02.480 would have heard of a prion disease outside of like 2:16:02.800 --> 2:16:05.160 you know some like you know, brain scientists and stuff, 2:16:05.160 --> 2:16:08.680 and that's you know, bovo line, bovine sponge form and 2:16:08.720 --> 2:16:12.760 sapalopathy or more commonly known as mad cow disease. So 2:16:13.560 --> 2:16:16.760 you know, Robert, I'm not sure how much you are 2:16:16.840 --> 2:16:19.040 aware of mad cow. It popped up in the US 2:16:19.080 --> 2:16:21.840 in the mid two thousand's, but it killed a bunch 2:16:21.880 --> 2:16:24.480 of people in England in the nineties. Yeah, isn't there 2:16:24.520 --> 2:16:27.960 like there's still restrictions on like blood donation and stuff 2:16:27.960 --> 2:16:30.160 if you lived in England at a certain period, right, 2:16:30.240 --> 2:16:32.800 like there's some weird ship like that. Yeah, you can't 2:16:32.840 --> 2:16:35.840 donate blood for that. Um, that's a very good reason. 2:16:35.879 --> 2:16:36.880 We'll go in too that in a second. Actually, I 2:16:37.000 --> 2:16:38.720 wass in England not too long ago, and I did 2:16:38.800 --> 2:16:41.480 not eat beef there because I've read too much about 2:16:41.520 --> 2:16:44.240 prions to mess around with that stuff. Yeah, I mean, 2:16:45.080 --> 2:16:48.240 thankfully here in America we have health food standards, unlike 2:16:48.280 --> 2:16:51.400 those filthy Brits. But yeah, yeah, we had us Scare 2:16:52.160 --> 2:16:54.920 um Canada head of Scare and we'll talk about the 2:16:55.160 --> 2:16:58.080 repercussions of that later. But so the reason we're going 2:16:58.080 --> 2:17:00.200 back is we're gonna look at the most recent time 2:17:00.280 --> 2:17:03.640 prians have become mainstream. So what happened there? So well, 2:17:03.760 --> 2:17:06.320 let me just unfold this a little bit. That's a joke, 2:17:06.440 --> 2:17:10.600 y'all all understand in three minutes hopefully. So a prion, 2:17:11.040 --> 2:17:15.360 it's a protein in your brain. Now, UM, I'm not 2:17:15.400 --> 2:17:18.840 a neurologist. I am a wildlife biologist for sorry, so um, 2:17:18.959 --> 2:17:20.879 I'm not gonna be answer every question out there about 2:17:20.959 --> 2:17:24.120 brains and proteins and stuff like that. Um, but what 2:17:24.520 --> 2:17:27.200 what the prion protein in your brain does is it 2:17:27.320 --> 2:17:30.720 moves copper around, which is important for cell stuff. I 2:17:30.959 --> 2:17:33.920 personally think that mankind should have never looked through a 2:17:33.920 --> 2:17:37.040 microscope and everything at the cider level is just harresy. 2:17:37.240 --> 2:17:39.520 We shouldn't look at it at all. Now, I'm i'm, 2:17:39.560 --> 2:17:41.680 I'm I'm completely on board with you there. There's certain 2:17:41.720 --> 2:17:43.879 things we never should have studied, and anything that involves 2:17:43.920 --> 2:17:46.360 a microscope is one of them. Oh yeah, you lost 2:17:46.400 --> 2:17:48.880 me there. HandLens I'm good for you can like see 2:17:48.920 --> 2:17:52.840 like small stuff, but microscopes out. Okay. So, so in 2:17:53.000 --> 2:17:55.720 your brain you're moving around copper and stuff and it's 2:17:55.760 --> 2:17:58.280 important for the cell stuff. So, um, we're gonna go 2:17:58.280 --> 2:17:59.840 back to high school biology. For most folks, you know, 2:18:00.000 --> 2:18:03.720 proteins building block of life important. So your protein structure 2:18:03.760 --> 2:18:05.879 is dictated by the elements in it and how they're 2:18:06.200 --> 2:18:08.760 like arranged, you know, like stacked on top of each other. 2:18:09.240 --> 2:18:12.600 So that's that's basic, you know, high school biology. But 2:18:12.720 --> 2:18:15.600 then you know, as you get a little bit further 2:18:15.640 --> 2:18:17.360 in biology, you find out there's it's a little bit 2:18:17.360 --> 2:18:20.680 more complex. So proteins, like you know, all things in 2:18:20.800 --> 2:18:23.320 our real world are unfortunately not like in the textbook, 2:18:23.320 --> 2:18:25.240 and these are three D and so they have like 2:18:25.400 --> 2:18:30.600 shapes and folds. Now, when folded correctly, it just prion 2:18:30.680 --> 2:18:35.000 protein operates normally and just moves copper around. Um, unfortunately 2:18:35.040 --> 2:18:38.000 doesn't always. You know, sometimes it doesn't fold correctly and 2:18:38.080 --> 2:18:42.040 when that happens, it doesn't move copper. And so brains 2:18:42.080 --> 2:18:43.959 have a little bit of an issue because they don't 2:18:44.000 --> 2:18:47.320 get copper. Yeah, and this is why all those trucks 2:18:47.360 --> 2:18:49.440 stops sell those copper bands that you can put on 2:18:49.480 --> 2:18:52.760 your risk to solve diseases. Right, it's to deal with that. Yeah, 2:18:52.800 --> 2:18:54.560 you just keep that copper band on your rest. So 2:18:54.800 --> 2:18:58.320 that problem. Yeah, So so what what happens when that 2:18:58.400 --> 2:19:00.080 happens is you get a prion disease. There are some 2:19:00.680 --> 2:19:03.040 that evolved in that just like they don't evolve because 2:19:03.040 --> 2:19:05.800 they're not living. Um that just pop up in nature. 2:19:05.879 --> 2:19:09.320 So like a spongef bovine sponge ofform and sepalopathy mad 2:19:09.400 --> 2:19:11.760 cow ropins a little bit earlier, talk about in a 2:19:11.800 --> 2:19:16.600 second scrapey uh, feline spongeform and sepalopathy which comes from 2:19:16.720 --> 2:19:20.280 cats that ate meat that was infected with mad cow um. 2:19:20.480 --> 2:19:24.360 And then there's kuru. I think, yeah, that's the one 2:19:24.480 --> 2:19:27.840 cannibals get, right, Like, this is famously why cannibals quote 2:19:27.920 --> 2:19:31.119 unquote go crazy. Actually a lot of cannibals. We're well 2:19:31.160 --> 2:19:33.360 aware that you don't eat meat from certain areas, but 2:19:33.480 --> 2:19:35.440 it is a thing if you're going to eat people, 2:19:36.080 --> 2:19:39.200 be really careful about the spine. Don't eat brains and spines. Yeah, 2:19:39.200 --> 2:19:43.640 that's that's exactly. Yeah. Um, there's um and in humans 2:19:43.760 --> 2:19:47.560 it's called um. The spongeforms seplopathy. I'm gonna explain the 2:19:47.600 --> 2:19:51.040 big word in one second. It's called crom helds yakops disease. 2:19:51.080 --> 2:19:54.920 It was too Germans really neat stuff. Yeah, it's one 2:19:54.959 --> 2:19:57.760 of my favorite disease names because you just know you're 2:19:57.800 --> 2:20:00.640 in for some like horrifying shit when you when you 2:20:00.800 --> 2:20:03.720 see the that spelled out, you're like, well, that's got 2:20:03.800 --> 2:20:07.120 to be something bad. Yeah. Well, luckily, like you know, 2:20:07.920 --> 2:20:11.920 for two German guys like alive in the thirties deed 2:20:12.040 --> 2:20:17.520 good stuff, like they doctors who weren't not seas in 2:20:17.600 --> 2:20:20.640 that period. Yeah, it seems like one of them died 2:20:20.800 --> 2:20:23.000 right before things like that, you know, things went out 2:20:23.040 --> 2:20:27.200 there and then time Yeah yeah, okay, So so I've 2:20:27.240 --> 2:20:30.440 been throwing around this word spongeform at sepalopathy um and 2:20:30.560 --> 2:20:33.920 then like you know, I changed like the you know, bovine, feline, whatever. 2:20:34.080 --> 2:20:36.640 So it a sponge of form means something looks like 2:20:36.680 --> 2:20:40.200 a sponge. And then it's epalopathy means brain. So your 2:20:40.240 --> 2:20:43.040 brain turns into a sponge. And that's because you're not 2:20:43.120 --> 2:20:45.640 getting copper and so cell cells are falling apart, and 2:20:45.760 --> 2:20:48.240 it's your brain just doesn't work, to be real simple, 2:20:48.280 --> 2:20:50.879 it's kind of like Alzheimer's that's like presents the humans, 2:20:50.920 --> 2:20:53.320 which is why it's really hard to figure out, all right, 2:20:53.400 --> 2:20:56.680 And then when you want to determine that something has spongeform, 2:20:56.720 --> 2:20:58.920 and sepalopathy. You've gotta cut the brain open, look at 2:20:58.959 --> 2:21:02.640 it under a microscope. Hell, yeah, you do. UM. And 2:21:02.879 --> 2:21:06.119 as you can imagine, that doesn't usually happen in people. 2:21:06.160 --> 2:21:08.680 You don't usually cut the brains open. And also in 2:21:08.720 --> 2:21:10.600 a lot of animals, you don't usually cut the brain open, 2:21:10.680 --> 2:21:15.039 look at it under microscope. Well it's bad, that's not. Yeah, 2:21:15.920 --> 2:21:18.920 it's always lethal, always a legal example. So like that's 2:21:18.959 --> 2:21:21.960 the basics of like what a prian disease is UM. 2:21:22.040 --> 2:21:24.080 And then when we saw it in in England, what 2:21:24.240 --> 2:21:27.200 had what had happened was got into cows. Cow's got 2:21:27.280 --> 2:21:29.400 it from eating other cows that were fed back to them, 2:21:29.600 --> 2:21:31.640 and then it got into humans because we ate what 2:21:31.879 --> 2:21:34.240 we the Brits in the third in the in the 2:21:34.400 --> 2:21:38.280 nineties eight cows that were infected with bovine sponge of 2:21:38.280 --> 2:21:41.400 formats eplopapy and you had to eat a good amount 2:21:41.440 --> 2:21:43.080 of it for it to build up in your brain. 2:21:44.440 --> 2:21:47.680 And what I mean by that is we're Americans, right, right, 2:21:47.760 --> 2:21:50.440 So not a problem for Americans. I just want to 2:21:50.520 --> 2:21:52.440 kind of like lay a foundation so we all understand 2:21:52.440 --> 2:21:55.200 what's going UM. And so what I mean I build 2:21:55.240 --> 2:21:56.920 up in your brain is like you know, you get 2:21:57.000 --> 2:21:59.440 like one two proteins in there, You're fine, It's okay. 2:21:59.480 --> 2:22:01.120 Protein has been full at the time. It takes you know, 2:22:01.240 --> 2:22:03.280 brains are big, especially in humans, so it takes a 2:22:03.280 --> 2:22:05.400 while for this to becoming problem. But what happens is 2:22:05.480 --> 2:22:08.880 over time is one is, once you build up enough, 2:22:09.360 --> 2:22:12.560 you're get exposed to enough prions that are misfolded, like 2:22:12.720 --> 2:22:16.119 the prions in the brains start misfolding, and then slowly 2:22:16.520 --> 2:22:21.560 your brain just starts stops functioning correctly. Yeah, it you know, 2:22:21.720 --> 2:22:25.520 it's it's like a chain, like a slow chain reaction. UM. 2:22:25.680 --> 2:22:29.000 So that's the basics of of um Prian diseases and 2:22:29.440 --> 2:22:34.600 spongeform and stephalopathies. Now we're talking about chronic wasting disease UM, 2:22:35.080 --> 2:22:38.560 which can be easily described as the deer equivalent of 2:22:38.879 --> 2:22:41.280 mad cow disease. And like when you see a lot 2:22:41.360 --> 2:22:43.560 of stuff about it, people just it's like called like 2:22:43.680 --> 2:22:46.959 zombie deer because like deer get weird when they are 2:22:47.440 --> 2:22:50.840 like dying from chronic wasting disease. Like the name chronic 2:22:50.879 --> 2:22:53.960 wasting disease comes from because they like wasting away. They're 2:22:54.000 --> 2:22:56.440 like drooling and also drinking a lot. They act weird. 2:22:56.560 --> 2:22:59.600 They look dumb. Um, they just do weird stuff, and 2:22:59.640 --> 2:23:05.119 so people call it zombie like, dear, but they're not. Um, 2:23:05.720 --> 2:23:07.600 They're just infected with a prime disease and their brightness 2:23:07.600 --> 2:23:10.920 falling apart. It's like it's like a person getting Alzheimer's, Like, 2:23:10.959 --> 2:23:13.160 you know, they do weird stuff. My grandma has Alzheimer's 2:23:13.200 --> 2:23:17.360 is terrible, don't get it? Yeah, yeah, my grandma had 2:23:17.440 --> 2:23:21.200 um the same thing that Robin Williams got the Loui 2:23:21.240 --> 2:23:23.400 body dimension, and it's it's pretty much the same thing, right, 2:23:23.440 --> 2:23:25.800 Like you can just see somebody kind of falling apart 2:23:25.879 --> 2:23:28.480 piece by piece. But that probably does make the deer 2:23:28.600 --> 2:23:32.400 easier to hunt, yes, and it also makes it really 2:23:32.440 --> 2:23:35.400 easy to identify when it's it's advanced stages in dear. 2:23:35.959 --> 2:23:38.680 So we've got kind of an understanding of about it. 2:23:38.840 --> 2:23:41.920 But like, you know, why do we care? We are people? 2:23:42.240 --> 2:23:45.280 We are not dear, right, Robert, are you a dear? Uh? 2:23:45.400 --> 2:23:48.280 Not right now? I mean I have been to a 2:23:48.360 --> 2:23:52.400 furry convention, but but I didn't commit. So we all 2:23:52.440 --> 2:23:57.280 got our things. Well. Um, so I I hunt, dear Robert, 2:23:57.360 --> 2:23:59.440 I think you hunt. I don't know I'm getting I'm 2:23:59.480 --> 2:24:03.400 getting ready for for hunting season as we as we speak. Yeah, 2:24:03.520 --> 2:24:07.959 so so, um, lots of people hunt deer and they 2:24:08.040 --> 2:24:10.520 eat deer, which is which is cool and it's fine 2:24:10.560 --> 2:24:13.400 and it's important to do in you know, certain ecosystems. 2:24:13.400 --> 2:24:15.520 I mean in most of the US, like, deer have 2:24:15.600 --> 2:24:19.240 been hunted by various you know humans for yeah, as 2:24:19.280 --> 2:24:22.720 long as people have been here, so you know, it's 2:24:22.760 --> 2:24:25.640 it's a natural thing to do. It's very normal for 2:24:25.760 --> 2:24:28.199 people to hunt deer and it's very normal. And also 2:24:28.320 --> 2:24:31.640 there are areas where we killed everything else that hunts deer. Yeah, 2:24:31.959 --> 2:24:34.840 so there's there's anyway whatever. We don't need to defend 2:24:34.920 --> 2:24:38.480 deer hunting here. I I've done hours of webinars on 2:24:38.720 --> 2:24:40.959 the points of deer management. It's it's a real fun 2:24:41.040 --> 2:24:42.960 subject to you. But we do care about that. We're 2:24:42.959 --> 2:24:46.080 talking about chronic waste disease, fun stuff. So so we 2:24:46.160 --> 2:24:48.680 care about that. We care about chronic wasting disease because 2:24:48.680 --> 2:24:51.560 it impacts all members of the servant family or deer. 2:24:51.640 --> 2:24:53.920 So that's you know, elk moose. I just learned the 2:24:54.000 --> 2:25:00.720 Europeans called moose European elk wild arrogant again this, Yeah, 2:25:01.280 --> 2:25:03.640 look at a moose. Look at an elk super different. 2:25:03.760 --> 2:25:07.720 It's wildly different animals. Like they're both very big, but 2:25:07.840 --> 2:25:10.360 they're also different sizes. It's like the difference between like 2:25:10.440 --> 2:25:13.640 an armored car and a tank. Like a fucking moose 2:25:13.840 --> 2:25:18.640 is like it's basically an elephant in terms of its footprints. Like, yeah, 2:25:18.720 --> 2:25:22.080 they're so cool to see that enormous Yeah, yeah, the 2:25:22.160 --> 2:25:25.320 impact it can get in all servants that we know 2:25:25.600 --> 2:25:29.480 it's um and you know, people like you know, people 2:25:29.560 --> 2:25:31.720 like to see servants, they like to hunt servants. We'd 2:25:31.800 --> 2:25:34.120 like to do it, you know in different countries. They're delicious. 2:25:34.160 --> 2:25:36.760 They have the best meat. Yes, absolutely, so much better 2:25:36.840 --> 2:25:41.119 than fucking beef, so much better than pork in my opinion, 2:25:41.320 --> 2:25:45.120 Like fucking love venicel Oh yeah, moose. I don't know 2:25:45.120 --> 2:25:47.720 if you had moose. I've had once. Oh it's yeah, 2:25:47.800 --> 2:25:51.240 moose and elk wonderful meats. That's actually a big thing 2:25:51.440 --> 2:25:53.720 Joe Rogan and I talk about when we're hanging out 2:25:53.879 --> 2:25:56.840 is elk meat. He's a big elk meat guy. That's good. 2:25:56.920 --> 2:25:59.920 I've I've never I've never hunted an elk. I've put 2:26:00.000 --> 2:26:01.440 it for the lottery every year, but it's hard to 2:26:01.480 --> 2:26:03.600 get hard to get elk tags in Pennsylvania. I know, 2:26:03.640 --> 2:26:05.600 it's a real surprise. Yeah, you know what, I'll go 2:26:05.680 --> 2:26:07.640 ahead and reach out. Now. It's easy to get the 2:26:07.680 --> 2:26:10.200 tags here, but it is hard unless you have a 2:26:10.280 --> 2:26:12.680 friend with land that elks are on to actually hunt 2:26:12.760 --> 2:26:16.560 them as as much as Yeah. Anyway, if you've got 2:26:16.680 --> 2:26:18.640 land in Oregon and you want me to hunt elk 2:26:18.720 --> 2:26:24.480 on it, hit hit us up. Yeah. So so you know, 2:26:24.560 --> 2:26:26.680 as we can see, this is a clear demand for 2:26:27.080 --> 2:26:29.880 servants and servent products, and so in like the fifties 2:26:29.920 --> 2:26:33.040 and sixties, people started, you know, they're like, well, you know, 2:26:33.160 --> 2:26:35.480 sometimes you're not always good at hunting, and not everyone 2:26:35.520 --> 2:26:37.840 wants to hunt, so they started trying to domesticate and 2:26:37.920 --> 2:26:43.640 farm them, right, um servants famously like running away, I've 2:26:43.640 --> 2:26:46.040 seen a lot of deer tails, Robert, you hunt, I'm 2:26:46.040 --> 2:26:48.560 sure you have, yeah, yeah, and a lot of like 2:26:48.879 --> 2:26:51.960 tracks that you can tell and like with ship or 2:26:52.000 --> 2:26:54.000 something near them that like, oh man, I fucking missed 2:26:54.000 --> 2:26:57.160 that son of a bitch by like thirty seconds. Yeah yeah, 2:26:57.240 --> 2:26:59.320 and if if even if you drive around you'll see 2:26:59.360 --> 2:27:01.080 just they're like, oh car, I'm out in five thousand 2:27:01.120 --> 2:27:03.440 that that don't need to be here. Sometimes they go 2:27:03.440 --> 2:27:05.960 across the road and hit him. That's the story. M 2:27:08.080 --> 2:27:11.959 yeah some states. Yeah, even sometimes it's bruce to heck. 2:27:12.160 --> 2:27:13.960 But that is how I get to eat some moose. 2:27:13.959 --> 2:27:17.760 Someone hit it with a car. Hell yeah. Um but um, 2:27:18.040 --> 2:27:19.960 so they don't like being in captivity at all. Not 2:27:20.120 --> 2:27:22.600 a fan, not a fan, and so they're very they're 2:27:22.680 --> 2:27:25.440 very stressed in captivity. And then like in the sixties 2:27:25.520 --> 2:27:30.600 in Colorado, um at on the Colorado University of Colorado, 2:27:31.280 --> 2:27:34.000 on their deer farm, they noticed like the deer were 2:27:34.040 --> 2:27:37.800 getting skinny and weird. And that's how that's where chronic 2:27:37.840 --> 2:27:41.280 wasting disease was discovered, because we tried to fucking farm 2:27:41.360 --> 2:27:45.760 an animal that's not okay, awesome, I love it. Yeah, yeah, 2:27:46.160 --> 2:27:48.080 there there are some folks who think that it's a 2:27:48.200 --> 2:27:51.240 natural thing. But it doesn't look like it doesn't look 2:27:51.280 --> 2:27:54.200 like it. Uh, no reports of it being around from 2:27:54.280 --> 2:27:56.800 before the sixties. And as we laid out, lots of 2:27:56.840 --> 2:27:58.560 people ate a lot of deer and saw a lot 2:27:58.600 --> 2:28:03.160 of deer before the sixties, so probably came from farming servants. 2:28:03.560 --> 2:28:07.480 So then since then, um, there's the deer farming is 2:28:07.520 --> 2:28:09.680 not really regulated and also deer are not really easy 2:28:09.720 --> 2:28:11.720 to keep in captivity. They like to jump and like 2:28:11.800 --> 2:28:13.880 when fences, fences blow down, and so they'll get out 2:28:14.480 --> 2:28:17.160 of captivity. And like also other deer they like come 2:28:17.240 --> 2:28:19.000 up to you know, captive deer and they're like, yo, 2:28:19.040 --> 2:28:21.720 what's up with you? Though you're in a cage, huh, 2:28:22.040 --> 2:28:23.959 And so you can actually see them. They'll like interact 2:28:23.959 --> 2:28:26.960 through the fence. Um, and that's probably how it got 2:28:27.000 --> 2:28:31.120 out of containment, is through interactions and you know, servants 2:28:31.160 --> 2:28:34.960 being spread around the country. And so now chronic waste 2:28:35.000 --> 2:28:41.360 disease is found in thirty states I think, four Canadian provinces, uh, Scandinavia, 2:28:42.120 --> 2:28:45.439 and Korea, so I think it's four or five countries. 2:28:46.240 --> 2:28:48.800 So so it's out there. It's out there, um, and 2:28:48.879 --> 2:28:52.560 it's it's infecting served populations across the US and across 2:28:52.680 --> 2:28:57.320 the across Canada, the world. Um. It's real bad. It's 2:28:57.360 --> 2:29:00.879 real bad. So it seems like a problem. Yeah. Yeah. 2:29:01.320 --> 2:29:04.080 So if you're a deer, what happens is you either 2:29:04.240 --> 2:29:06.920 interact with another to pick up chronic wasting disease. We'll 2:29:06.920 --> 2:29:09.200 go through the deer kind of the progression and deer 2:29:09.879 --> 2:29:11.520 to pick it up. Do you either interact with the 2:29:11.560 --> 2:29:13.400 deers that has chronic wasting disease. You go up and 2:29:13.520 --> 2:29:15.440 smell them, you look them a little bit. Deer groom 2:29:15.480 --> 2:29:20.000 each other, you know the animals. Um, you eat a 2:29:20.120 --> 2:29:22.920 plant that another deer pooped on, Now it doesn't have 2:29:23.000 --> 2:29:25.520 to have pooped on that plant, So like this is 2:29:25.640 --> 2:29:28.520 a deal. It's effective with chronic chronic waste disease. Can 2:29:28.560 --> 2:29:30.840 poop in the soil and the plant will pick up 2:29:31.040 --> 2:29:34.959 the pryon from the soil and then yeah, and then 2:29:34.959 --> 2:29:38.520 another deers can come in. It can just spread. Yeah cool, 2:29:39.000 --> 2:29:42.080 that's that's some real scary yeah. Yeah. And it can 2:29:42.120 --> 2:29:44.040 also you can also pick it up from water, but 2:29:44.120 --> 2:29:47.720 it has Spreading in water is really tough. So um, 2:29:47.920 --> 2:29:50.000 those are your main vectors is you know, deer to 2:29:50.080 --> 2:29:53.880 deer and environment to deer um. And that's why it's 2:29:53.959 --> 2:29:56.000 pretty tough to control once it gets into a state 2:29:56.040 --> 2:29:58.560 because to destroy it you have to dig up the 2:29:58.640 --> 2:30:01.240 soil and you have to burned a thousand degrees for 2:30:01.280 --> 2:30:03.960 an hour or you have to expose exposure to bleach 2:30:04.000 --> 2:30:05.960 for an hour to destroy the prion. Because it's not 2:30:06.040 --> 2:30:08.480 a living thing, it's a protein. Yeah, I mean, and 2:30:08.560 --> 2:30:10.200 there are a couple of towns that I would be 2:30:10.280 --> 2:30:12.960 okay doing that too, but on a wide scale that 2:30:13.040 --> 2:30:15.560 seems difficult to pull off. Yeah. I can think of 2:30:15.640 --> 2:30:18.040 a state that starts with an O in an age 2:30:18.080 --> 2:30:20.680 that I wouldn't mind losing, you know, if we just 2:30:20.800 --> 2:30:24.120 were like, why not give it a shot? Right? Yeah, 2:30:24.240 --> 2:30:26.560 it's just Ohio, Come on, it's not it's not a 2:30:26.680 --> 2:30:31.280 real state. So in Dear, we're gonna just we're gonna 2:30:31.280 --> 2:30:32.800 stay just in the deer where we're not gonna get 2:30:32.800 --> 2:30:35.879 scary yet. So in in Dear, this slowly builds up 2:30:35.920 --> 2:30:38.360 throughout the population and you get worst case scenarios like 2:30:38.480 --> 2:30:45.360 in south western Wisconsin where like the deer harvested uh 2:30:45.560 --> 2:30:48.720 buck's harvested a year are positive for chronic wasting disease, 2:30:49.200 --> 2:30:52.720 and because it's an always fatal you know, brain disease, 2:30:53.240 --> 2:30:57.640 you're looking at population collapse in extinction. Yeah, because it 2:30:57.720 --> 2:31:00.080 remains in the soil too, Like it's it's around or 2:31:00.080 --> 2:31:02.760 at least two probably more years. But the studies we've 2:31:02.800 --> 2:31:05.040 done our only two years, because um, these are not 2:31:05.200 --> 2:31:09.119 fun things to study. People have died studying these diseases 2:31:09.200 --> 2:31:11.800 from prions, like when they when they've done work on 2:31:11.920 --> 2:31:16.039 like BSc lab tech actually pricked herself with the tool 2:31:16.680 --> 2:31:20.040 uh and got um c j c j D and 2:31:20.120 --> 2:31:24.120 died from it. So yeah, they're not fun to study really, 2:31:24.680 --> 2:31:27.240 you know that's this is like we're talking like Martian 2:31:27.440 --> 2:31:32.920 suit style study stuff. It's not fun. So the stand 2:31:33.080 --> 2:31:36.680 level ship yeah, yeah, yeah exactly. Yeah, so so like 2:31:37.600 --> 2:31:42.080 you know it without you know, when chronic wasting disease 2:31:42.160 --> 2:31:45.080 is not addressed into your populations, like in southeastern or 2:31:45.120 --> 2:31:48.600 southwestern Wisconsin, you're looking at extinction level stuff because all 2:31:48.680 --> 2:31:51.480 of the deer that are out there are most you 2:31:51.520 --> 2:31:55.040 know them have chronic waste disease or at some point 2:31:55.080 --> 2:31:57.840 in getting chronic waste disease, which means that they're putting 2:31:57.840 --> 2:32:00.200 more and more of in the environment and they're more 2:32:00.280 --> 2:32:02.120 like if you're a non affected deer, you're you know, 2:32:02.520 --> 2:32:04.320 three cores, your buddies are infected, so you're going to 2:32:04.360 --> 2:32:06.680 get chronic wasting disease and be dead within two or 2:32:06.720 --> 2:32:09.720 three years. So you're looking at extinction of all servants 2:32:09.760 --> 2:32:12.040 in that area for some amount of time until it 2:32:12.080 --> 2:32:17.200 comes out of the soil. That's bad. That is a problem. Yes, yeah, yeah, 2:32:17.280 --> 2:32:20.480 as we have established neither of us are dear, So 2:32:21.480 --> 2:32:25.080 why do we care? I mean outside of like the 2:32:25.160 --> 2:32:29.480 fact that deer are pretty important to the ecology of 2:32:29.560 --> 2:32:32.000 local areas and that that collapses bad. Yeah, why what 2:32:32.200 --> 2:32:33.920 is what is the problem? Like, what is the risks 2:32:33.959 --> 2:32:37.200 to human beings beyond that? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, we put 2:32:37.320 --> 2:32:40.000 we put in college all aside all the time, like 2:32:40.200 --> 2:32:43.240 this is the world. We don't really care about that. Yeah, 2:32:43.600 --> 2:32:45.800 I ideal with what happened that you pretty college aside. 2:32:45.800 --> 2:32:48.360 So I'm super used to that that being done. So 2:32:48.560 --> 2:32:53.520 the risk is if it jumps into humans, because all 2:32:53.600 --> 2:32:57.760 of a sudden, you have a disease that's really hard 2:32:57.800 --> 2:33:00.880 to detect that can live in the ironman that can 2:33:00.959 --> 2:33:03.720 be transferred from not just spinal fluid, but like if 2:33:03.760 --> 2:33:06.240 you eat a lot of infected meat from deer. You know, 2:33:06.760 --> 2:33:09.160 if you eat um, some of the organs you can 2:33:09.200 --> 2:33:12.720 get at a high risk. So so you know, all 2:33:12.760 --> 2:33:14.560 of a sudden, you have a large portion of the 2:33:14.600 --> 2:33:17.760 population that could be exposed through direct consumption. But the 2:33:17.840 --> 2:33:20.240 other thing is is prions are really hard to kill. 2:33:20.360 --> 2:33:22.360 I said, they live in soil. They also live on 2:33:22.440 --> 2:33:26.320 steel surfaces, glass surfaces, every like surface that they've tested, 2:33:26.400 --> 2:33:28.480 like trying to kill prions, like you know, putting prions 2:33:28.520 --> 2:33:30.360 on seeing how long they live there hang out there. 2:33:30.640 --> 2:33:32.800 There was some surgical equipment that was infected with a 2:33:32.879 --> 2:33:37.200 prion gave someone chronic wasting not crying c j D 2:33:37.440 --> 2:33:40.680 three years after using it out someone who had um 2:33:41.080 --> 2:33:44.520 c j D G. Yeah, and that's like you know, 2:33:44.560 --> 2:33:46.760 surgical great stainless steel stuff so like not supposed to 2:33:46.800 --> 2:33:50.280 hold things, gets like cleaned, but not like super like 2:33:50.320 --> 2:33:52.039 not prian level clean because they didn't know about at 2:33:52.040 --> 2:33:55.520 the time. So so there's there's the risk is is 2:33:55.640 --> 2:33:58.640 is it could potentially develop into a human something that 2:33:58.720 --> 2:34:01.120 impacts human's Like right now it hasn't. We do have 2:34:01.280 --> 2:34:03.400 eight different variations of it out there in the landscape, 2:34:03.760 --> 2:34:09.200 and as more and more deer exposed to it, what happens, 2:34:10.879 --> 2:34:13.200 we get more and more variations of it, because that's 2:34:13.240 --> 2:34:17.080 just what happens in nature. As we're all becoming familiar 2:34:17.160 --> 2:34:20.000 with with COVID. Yeah, it keeps changing because it's nothing 2:34:20.080 --> 2:34:22.760 has been done to stop it from spreading. Yeah, and 2:34:22.840 --> 2:34:24.240 like the only thing you can do to stop it 2:34:24.360 --> 2:34:26.680 is just like reduced deer numbers. You can't really eliminate 2:34:26.720 --> 2:34:31.279 out of the landscape because it's in the soil. Yeah, 2:34:31.400 --> 2:34:33.920 and you can't you can't test live dear for it. 2:34:34.040 --> 2:34:36.000 You gotta kill him to do it. There's they are developed. 2:34:36.040 --> 2:34:39.800 There are some tests being developed to determine if animals 2:34:39.840 --> 2:34:44.360 are infected UM that are faster, but you know, it's 2:34:44.400 --> 2:34:47.119 still it's still in progress. So that's called art quick. 2:34:47.320 --> 2:34:50.400 It's a protein test that's that's much faster than current testing, 2:34:51.080 --> 2:34:54.520 but it's still in progress. So the thing that really 2:34:54.600 --> 2:34:58.240 scares me is the other, well, the other thing about 2:34:58.400 --> 2:35:00.800 that makes chronic wasting to these different from you know 2:35:01.040 --> 2:35:05.080 BS mad cow diseases. Mad cow was in cows that 2:35:05.200 --> 2:35:10.600 were in you know, captive spaces and you know, you 2:35:10.680 --> 2:35:12.960 know where the cows are. Yeah, it's a problem, but 2:35:13.080 --> 2:35:16.560 it's a problem that you can, like with enough fire 2:35:16.760 --> 2:35:20.720 and or other tools eradicate. Yeah. Yeah, And it didn't 2:35:20.879 --> 2:35:23.360 it didn't seem to be you know, very president soil. 2:35:23.480 --> 2:35:25.000 And it was like you had defeat dead cows to 2:35:25.040 --> 2:35:28.680 dead cow to live cows to get them infected. Chronic 2:35:28.720 --> 2:35:33.200 waste disease is a different beast UM. So the real 2:35:33.480 --> 2:35:36.320 scary potential here is that it's in soil so you 2:35:36.360 --> 2:35:38.720 can get into plants, and we know that plants get 2:35:38.800 --> 2:35:42.680 transmit chronic waste disease other deer, so it could you know, 2:35:42.760 --> 2:35:46.160 transmitted to other animals like things that eat plants. You know, 2:35:46.240 --> 2:35:48.800 for example, you and I eat plants. If you're an American, 2:35:49.440 --> 2:35:52.360 you eat corn and a couple of different forms. Um, 2:35:52.840 --> 2:35:56.480 dear love hanging out in corn fields. Oh yeah, So 2:35:57.240 --> 2:36:00.440 there is an exposure vector right there. And you know 2:36:01.640 --> 2:36:05.000 when you're doing when you're processing cornate corncer Let's say, um, 2:36:05.240 --> 2:36:06.640 you take a bunch of corn from a bunch of 2:36:06.720 --> 2:36:08.720 the places. Uh sposh it up, grind it up. You know, 2:36:08.800 --> 2:36:10.160 you do a bunch of stuff to it in on 2:36:10.280 --> 2:36:13.280 steel surfaces and you don't need to a thousand degrees 2:36:13.320 --> 2:36:15.240 for an hour. So all of a sudden you have 2:36:15.480 --> 2:36:17.680 like a case of sota that could be infected with 2:36:17.840 --> 2:36:22.840 chronic wasting disease. There's the potential, the big potential damage 2:36:22.959 --> 2:36:25.880 if this ship jumps to people, which it hasn't yet. 2:36:26.040 --> 2:36:27.640 I want to be really clear about that, so we're 2:36:27.720 --> 2:36:31.040 not causing to but if it does, the containment thing 2:36:31.200 --> 2:36:35.080 is like even in order of magnitude beyond fucking COVID ship, right, 2:36:35.200 --> 2:36:37.680 like it's because it's spread through the soil, it gets 2:36:37.760 --> 2:36:41.840 into the fucking basic ingredients of food, and we we 2:36:42.000 --> 2:36:45.040 simply the way that we process that stuff isn't set 2:36:45.120 --> 2:36:47.720 up in a way that will eliminate it right now. Yeah, 2:36:47.840 --> 2:36:50.080 and I would tell you you really can't on a 2:36:50.200 --> 2:36:55.480 large scale like process anything that's then make it safe 2:36:55.560 --> 2:36:59.000 from you know, like chronic wasting disease, because you have 2:36:59.040 --> 2:37:00.760 to like you know, if you if you like cut 2:37:00.879 --> 2:37:02.920 up like let's let's let's go back to like assuming 2:37:03.200 --> 2:37:05.240 like you know, it's just in you you're handling an 2:37:05.240 --> 2:37:07.879 affected deer. If you cut that deer up, you use 2:37:07.920 --> 2:37:10.400 your knife, you gotta put it in bleach for an 2:37:10.440 --> 2:37:12.840 hour and then you can come back to bleak is 2:37:12.879 --> 2:37:16.080 really corrosive, so eventually destroy your knife. There's there's your 2:37:16.240 --> 2:37:17.879 end thing there. But you can also be through your hands, 2:37:17.959 --> 2:37:20.520 you know, touching it you can get it. Um. Yeah, 2:37:20.600 --> 2:37:22.240 So there's this's a scary part there. I mean, like 2:37:22.360 --> 2:37:24.160 you like, as you point out and I start, I 2:37:24.200 --> 2:37:26.480 really totally failed on my part to menion. It hasn't 2:37:26.520 --> 2:37:29.680 jumped to humans. Yes not. We are not saying you 2:37:29.800 --> 2:37:32.040 are going to get the disease tomorrow. That is not. 2:37:32.600 --> 2:37:36.280 But it also like isn't it like there's nothing that 2:37:36.360 --> 2:37:40.680 says it can't jump to humans right right right exactly. So, UM, 2:37:41.280 --> 2:37:44.000 there have been a number of like three or four. 2:37:44.160 --> 2:37:46.520 There is two studies I know if I there's a 2:37:46.600 --> 2:37:49.720 third one I've heard about. UM looking at if you know, 2:37:49.920 --> 2:37:53.240 human like animals can get chronic waste and disease. So 2:37:53.320 --> 2:37:56.600 that's macaques, which are a kind of monkey. UM. And 2:37:56.680 --> 2:37:59.520 when they have been fed chronic you know, meat and 2:37:59.560 --> 2:38:04.320 infected chronic waste disease UM, and they were exposed to blood, 2:38:04.800 --> 2:38:07.120 they were fed it, they were exposed to blood and 2:38:07.200 --> 2:38:09.080 so it was just injected right into the back of 2:38:09.120 --> 2:38:12.840 their brain stem um. The monkey's got chronic wasting disease. 2:38:14.440 --> 2:38:17.480 So it looks like it's possible. UM. And then also hamsters, 2:38:17.520 --> 2:38:19.720 which are also used as a human standing have also 2:38:19.840 --> 2:38:24.320 been fed meat infected with chronic wasting disease and they 2:38:24.400 --> 2:38:25.960 were able to get it, and they really get it 2:38:26.040 --> 2:38:29.520 from a number of different sources. UM. There are some 2:38:29.600 --> 2:38:32.720 really like fun and by fun, I mean scary papers 2:38:32.760 --> 2:38:35.600 out there about like all the ways like chronic wasting 2:38:35.680 --> 2:38:40.360 disease moves around and survives. Uh. And the studies about 2:38:40.520 --> 2:38:44.119 like using human standings are not always fun to read, 2:38:45.440 --> 2:38:47.879 and this is this is definitely one of those things 2:38:47.959 --> 2:38:51.160 where it's like, yeah, what is the other option other 2:38:51.240 --> 2:38:54.000 than yeah, you have to try it on ship? That's yeah, 2:38:54.120 --> 2:38:57.720 that's that's very unsettling, But like, yeah, what else are 2:38:57.760 --> 2:39:00.880 you gonna do? Like, have you this is something you 2:39:00.959 --> 2:39:05.280 do have to know? Yeah, yeah, and um. The other 2:39:05.360 --> 2:39:09.640 problem with prions is detection when it comes to like, 2:39:09.760 --> 2:39:12.800 you know, different species, because it presents like Alzheimer's and 2:39:12.840 --> 2:39:15.440 so the only way you know that something got up 2:39:15.480 --> 2:39:18.640 prion disease is if you cut their head. If you 2:39:18.720 --> 2:39:21.959 cut its head open, you look at its brain. So um. 2:39:22.440 --> 2:39:25.080 When and in humans, it can take a long time 2:39:25.200 --> 2:39:27.680 for these symptoms to present, I think, like if you 2:39:27.720 --> 2:39:29.520 look it up on Wikipedia, it's is like the average 2:39:29.600 --> 2:39:34.600 like age detection is sixty years and then we're good fine. Yeah. Yeah. 2:39:34.879 --> 2:39:37.520 The researchers that I've spoken to say it takes like 2:39:37.680 --> 2:39:40.480 forty years for enough prions to build up in your 2:39:40.480 --> 2:39:43.600 brain for it to like, you know, start to show symptoms, 2:39:44.240 --> 2:39:48.120 so you know if it is to jump, if it jumps, 2:39:48.160 --> 2:39:51.119 the species bearer the first time we detected will probably 2:39:51.160 --> 2:39:54.480 not be the first time anyone has been infected. Yeah, 2:39:54.640 --> 2:39:57.879 it will already have spread quite widely and then people 2:39:57.959 --> 2:40:00.960 will hopefully not but yeah, so so that that's the 2:40:01.000 --> 2:40:03.640 scary part. That that's the human side scary part. But 2:40:04.040 --> 2:40:06.760 you know, we don't always have to keep human side scary. Sometimes. 2:40:06.800 --> 2:40:09.640 You know, things work in you know, monkeys and hamsters 2:40:09.680 --> 2:40:12.000 that don't work in humans. And we've cured cancer, you know, 2:40:12.120 --> 2:40:15.920 hundreds of times in mice, right yeah, and in humans 2:40:15.959 --> 2:40:17.840 it's a lot harder to do because we're not mice, 2:40:17.959 --> 2:40:20.520 we're not monkeys, we're humans. So it doesn't always work 2:40:20.600 --> 2:40:23.400 like that. But the the other scary part is when 2:40:23.440 --> 2:40:28.240 it comes to agriculture and the impact on agriculture. So 2:40:29.280 --> 2:40:32.160 pigs can pick up chronic wasting disease there what's called 2:40:32.200 --> 2:40:34.720 a prian amplifier, so they can pick it up. They 2:40:34.800 --> 2:40:36.680 can like you know, hangs out in them, just find 2:40:36.720 --> 2:40:43.959 it doesn't kill pigs at all. They can people. That's true. 2:40:44.280 --> 2:40:47.600 That's the truth right there, that's the truth. Yeah. So 2:40:48.160 --> 2:40:51.879 so you know, if if it you know, as people, 2:40:52.280 --> 2:40:54.560 you know, government's become more aware of it and more 2:40:54.600 --> 2:40:58.160 concerned about it. There there's the real possibility of you know, 2:40:58.240 --> 2:41:03.080 agricultural exports get hammered on, you know, exporting it because 2:41:03.160 --> 2:41:06.120 you know other countries you know, are concerned about spreading it. 2:41:06.200 --> 2:41:07.959 So right now, you know it's pretty hard to well, 2:41:08.040 --> 2:41:11.600 it's getting increasingly the harder to export live dear probably 2:41:11.640 --> 2:41:15.160 should be Probably farming service is not a great idea 2:41:15.280 --> 2:41:19.160 for their health and ours. But um, you know, also 2:41:19.240 --> 2:41:21.640 there's the concern about spread. So if if chronic wasting 2:41:21.680 --> 2:41:24.760 disease is you know, crosses from humans to cows like 2:41:24.840 --> 2:41:27.600 we've seen, you know, like if you know BSc just 2:41:27.640 --> 2:41:30.680 pops up in some cows, you know that might be 2:41:30.760 --> 2:41:33.520 from chronic waste disease, and the impact that is going 2:41:33.560 --> 2:41:36.160 to be huge. I mean Canada they were shut out 2:41:36.160 --> 2:41:39.120 of the Japanese market for fourteen years, like Japanese beef 2:41:39.160 --> 2:41:41.800 market for fourteen years following a case of mad cow 2:41:41.840 --> 2:41:44.640 disease and two thousand and six they got let back 2:41:44.680 --> 2:41:47.000 in two years ago and the studies and that was 2:41:47.040 --> 2:41:49.200 like a couple of billion dollars in damage to the 2:41:49.240 --> 2:41:54.520 Canadian beef market. So you know, and that was BSc, 2:41:54.680 --> 2:41:57.600 which does not do it doesn't transfer via plant, So 2:41:57.640 --> 2:42:00.600 imagine it is the US, you know, agricultural sport market 2:42:00.680 --> 2:42:05.920 market got shut down for plants that like economic damage 2:42:06.000 --> 2:42:09.840 is incalculable. Yeah. Yeah, so that's the scary part of 2:42:09.840 --> 2:42:12.560 electronic wasting disease. Those are all the scarinesses. That's what 2:42:12.680 --> 2:42:16.560 keeps me up at night. This is frightening and important 2:42:16.600 --> 2:42:19.040 for people to be aware of because it's a serious threat. 2:42:19.680 --> 2:42:23.720 Are there things that can be done at the moment? Like, 2:42:23.959 --> 2:42:26.680 is there is there inactionable You're not just like not 2:42:27.040 --> 2:42:29.040 on a what can our audience do? But like, is 2:42:29.120 --> 2:42:33.240 there a thing that could potentially be done by you know, 2:42:33.400 --> 2:42:35.880 states or the federal government never that would help this? 2:42:36.080 --> 2:42:38.560 Like is there actually do we do it? Do we 2:42:38.640 --> 2:42:40.440 have any fucking idea of like what could be done 2:42:40.480 --> 2:42:43.000 to make it less likely for the kind of nightmare 2:42:43.040 --> 2:42:45.880 scenarios that we've alluded to to occur here. Yeah. So 2:42:46.280 --> 2:42:48.560 the best kit, you know, the best things we can 2:42:48.640 --> 2:42:51.720 do are to you know, hunt deer, reduced der population, 2:42:51.760 --> 2:42:54.080 so that way you're you know, taking deer out that 2:42:54.160 --> 2:42:57.400 might be infected. And when you hunt deer in most 2:42:57.480 --> 2:42:59.959 areas that infected you, there's a you test them for free, 2:43:00.000 --> 2:43:02.600 you with your state or various authorities, and so then 2:43:02.640 --> 2:43:05.400 those carcasses are destroyed, so you can remove you know, 2:43:05.480 --> 2:43:07.800 disease off the landscape that way. Um. And then by 2:43:07.840 --> 2:43:10.880 also just hunting deer, you reduce population levels and so 2:43:11.000 --> 2:43:12.960 you make it you make the disease loading in the 2:43:13.040 --> 2:43:16.320 landscape lower and it less likely to spread, you know, 2:43:16.400 --> 2:43:18.640 both to other deers and then potentially vector to other 2:43:18.720 --> 2:43:22.959 animals exposed to other animals. Um. Excuse me. New York 2:43:23.040 --> 2:43:24.600 is a great example of this. They had a case 2:43:24.640 --> 2:43:27.879 of chronic waste and disease pop up, took it out really, 2:43:28.120 --> 2:43:29.880 you know, hunted that area hard. I think that they 2:43:29.920 --> 2:43:33.000 even brought in professionals and did some real serious deer 2:43:33.040 --> 2:43:36.080 reduction and they haven't had a case since. So you know, 2:43:36.840 --> 2:43:38.840 in areas where it pops up, you can just hammer 2:43:38.879 --> 2:43:42.879 it with you know, lethal removal of animals, harvesting whatever, 2:43:43.440 --> 2:43:47.039 and um, you can prevent spread um, and you cannot 2:43:47.200 --> 2:43:48.680 you can really not get back the other thing we 2:43:48.720 --> 2:43:50.920 got to do. We need to be very serious about 2:43:51.040 --> 2:43:53.520 we need to take the captive servant industry. So I've 2:43:53.560 --> 2:43:54.920 used the word server a couple of times. I never 2:43:54.959 --> 2:43:58.320 defined it, my apologies. Servants are members of the deer family, 2:43:58.400 --> 2:44:01.560 so elk moose yeah, seek a deer. All those guys 2:44:01.720 --> 2:44:03.840 read deer fatility or what a bunch of them? Um, 2:44:04.000 --> 2:44:06.600 we need to make sure that we're very closely regulating 2:44:06.640 --> 2:44:09.920 that industry because of the potential spread. There was a 2:44:10.000 --> 2:44:14.039 farmer in Wisconsin that sent like almost four hundred different 2:44:14.160 --> 2:44:17.800 infected deer to like a hundred nineties seven different farms 2:44:18.400 --> 2:44:22.360 UM over the course of like four years. So you know, 2:44:23.120 --> 2:44:27.240 it's regulation is incredibly important. UM, and it's it's rarely. 2:44:27.480 --> 2:44:30.400 You know, it's not really enough on most farms. My 2:44:30.560 --> 2:44:34.320 home state here we have UM. You know, if you 2:44:34.760 --> 2:44:37.000 make less than ten thousand dollars from your servant farm, 2:44:37.080 --> 2:44:38.520 you don't have to report it, you don't have to 2:44:38.560 --> 2:44:41.400 track it or anything. That's a real problem because we 2:44:41.680 --> 2:44:45.680 are experiencing expanding chronic waste disease. So regulation, you know, 2:44:45.959 --> 2:44:50.080 that's fun. Maybe we just shouldn't be farming servants. Maybe 2:44:50.160 --> 2:44:53.560 that's bad. Yeah. I don't disagree with you at all there. Yeah, 2:44:54.320 --> 2:44:57.800 not not a fan. Yeah. From the ethical standpoint too, 2:44:58.040 --> 2:45:02.039 there's there's many I raise a several different I raised 2:45:02.480 --> 2:45:06.120 bunnies and chickens and goats, and I help raise sheep 2:45:06.920 --> 2:45:10.360 for for meat. Uh, there's plenty of different things that 2:45:10.440 --> 2:45:13.360 you can raise for meat that are used to it 2:45:13.480 --> 2:45:16.320 because we've been raising them for meat for like tens 2:45:16.360 --> 2:45:19.279 of thousands of fucking years. Like the sheep. I have orangoras, 2:45:19.280 --> 2:45:21.680 which I didn't go back like twenty thirty thousand years, 2:45:21.800 --> 2:45:24.960 Like they're they're they're they're meant for it. We have 2:45:25.200 --> 2:45:27.840 changed them into animals that are supposed to be raised 2:45:27.920 --> 2:45:31.000 for meat. Don't take new animals and try to farm 2:45:31.040 --> 2:45:34.160 them like that because it seems like it causes problems. Yeah, well, 2:45:34.280 --> 2:45:36.400 there's a really neat there's a really neat work out 2:45:36.520 --> 2:45:40.240 there about the about domestications stress and like you know, 2:45:40.480 --> 2:45:44.400 domestic kids sheep don't care about being domesticated, whereas like 2:45:44.520 --> 2:45:47.080 they've compared like domesticate cheap to wild cheep. Wild sheep 2:45:47.200 --> 2:45:49.879 die really quick when you put the domestication from the stress. 2:45:49.920 --> 2:45:52.320 But yeah, like you said, uh, maybe maybe we don't 2:45:52.360 --> 2:45:53.760 Maybe we don't play around with some of these animals 2:45:53.800 --> 2:45:55.640 to try to force them to do human what we 2:45:55.840 --> 2:45:57.920 humans want them to do. You know, it's okay for 2:45:57.959 --> 2:46:02.480 animals to just be animals. Wrong with that? Um. Yeah, 2:46:02.560 --> 2:46:05.280 So the other thing, there was a large amount of 2:46:05.320 --> 2:46:07.840 money set aside, and I can't remember which legislative packager 2:46:07.920 --> 2:46:10.480 was they got defeated a while back that put money 2:46:10.520 --> 2:46:14.240 towards chronic wasting disease research. So you know, legislators and 2:46:14.320 --> 2:46:16.200 states can be you know, legislatures and government can be 2:46:16.240 --> 2:46:19.520 taken seriously putting money towards it. Right now, it's there's 2:46:19.560 --> 2:46:21.440 not a lot of money going towards it because it's like, yeah, 2:46:21.440 --> 2:46:24.000 it's a zombie deer thing, who cares. Yeah, well, you 2:46:24.440 --> 2:46:27.000 could get into this is not just a problem for 2:46:27.080 --> 2:46:31.920 deer hunters. This could be a real issue for everybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 2:46:33.280 --> 2:46:35.280 so yeah, I mean, I mean it's kind of like 2:46:35.320 --> 2:46:38.320 a larger symptomatic thing too. We don't really take environmental 2:46:38.360 --> 2:46:43.680 problems that seriously. Um yeah, yeah, I mean the yeah, 2:46:43.720 --> 2:46:45.440 the scary thing about this is we don't treat the 2:46:45.520 --> 2:46:48.680 environmental problem seriously. When everyone's saying, like, hey, the consequence 2:46:48.760 --> 2:46:52.360 is that like all of Florida will be uninhabitable, right, Like, 2:46:52.440 --> 2:46:55.400 we don't take that seriously. So when you're saying, this 2:46:55.560 --> 2:47:00.400 is much wonkier, which is definitely a barrier to effective action. Yeah, 2:47:00.440 --> 2:47:03.440 I did a legislative testimony about chronic wasting disease a 2:47:03.480 --> 2:47:05.959 couple of months back, and no one was paying attention, 2:47:06.280 --> 2:47:07.680 but you know, it made me feel good. I was 2:47:07.720 --> 2:47:09.760 doing something. Oh he was a fun thing about Florida 2:47:09.760 --> 2:47:12.200 and chronic waste disease. So Florida, you know, full of 2:47:12.240 --> 2:47:15.720 invasive species. Obviously it has chronic waste disease. Like it's 2:47:15.720 --> 2:47:18.760 a Florida obviously gotta pick up a new disease. You 2:47:18.840 --> 2:47:25.080 know what else is in Florida Colonies of macaques. There's 2:47:25.120 --> 2:47:29.680 like two colonies of I was unaware of that. Yeah, 2:47:29.920 --> 2:47:32.920 was it because people were an ill advisedly keeping pets. 2:47:33.600 --> 2:47:35.120 I think one of them started that way, and I 2:47:35.200 --> 2:47:38.560 think one of them was like some monkeys that have 2:47:38.640 --> 2:47:40.960 been like kept for testing or zoo stuff escaped. But 2:47:41.040 --> 2:47:43.400 there are at least like two like colonies of like 2:47:43.560 --> 2:47:46.520 maccas in Florida, which also has chronic waste disease. So 2:47:47.000 --> 2:47:49.600 you know there's I don't think the chronic they're like 2:47:49.720 --> 2:47:51.800 near the Everglades. I don't think chronic waste disease made 2:47:51.840 --> 2:47:54.040 that far south of Florida. So there's a there's a 2:47:54.080 --> 2:47:57.199 fun possibility of the lab experiments under highly control conditions 2:47:57.240 --> 2:48:00.920 getting um, you know, performed in in the wild setting. 2:48:01.000 --> 2:48:03.160 We could see if if mccax can pick up chronic 2:48:03.200 --> 2:48:06.040 waste disease in the wild. Um, there's a there's a 2:48:06.080 --> 2:48:09.640 fun research project for someone who uh, you know is 2:48:09.680 --> 2:48:15.040 able to handle dark sides of things. Yeah, thank you Florida. Um. 2:48:15.360 --> 2:48:19.080 But more importantly, thank you flow right. Uh. And a 2:48:19.160 --> 2:48:21.680 lot of people are unaware of this was just a 2:48:21.760 --> 2:48:25.240 couple of years ago in the Eurovision Song Awards representing 2:48:25.320 --> 2:48:31.640 San Marino. So you know, twenty two overall not bad. Yeah, 2:48:31.800 --> 2:48:37.240 that's pretty good, better than I could do. Good day. 2:48:38.240 --> 2:48:40.680 And also, you are not technically a citizen of the 2:48:40.760 --> 2:48:44.720 Republic of San Marino. No, but yet they offered me citizenship. 2:48:44.760 --> 2:48:47.320 I would consider it absolutely. Who wouldn't want to be 2:48:47.400 --> 2:48:50.920 a citizen of the most serene Republic of San Marino. Yeah, 2:48:51.000 --> 2:48:53.920 I I've looked at Andorra, so you know it would 2:48:53.920 --> 2:48:56.720 be a really we're looking at European micro nations. I mean, 2:48:56.760 --> 2:48:59.640 if and door came knock in versus San Marino, obviously 2:48:59.720 --> 2:49:01.760 sam Real is getting kicked to the curb. I love 2:49:01.840 --> 2:49:05.280 that like dual like government between the President of France 2:49:05.280 --> 2:49:08.800 and like the Pope of or not the Bishop. It's 2:49:08.840 --> 2:49:11.320 like a bishop of like somewhere in Italy. Yeah, it's 2:49:11.480 --> 2:49:14.640 very funny. Um yeah, you gotta love those weird little 2:49:14.680 --> 2:49:21.040 micro republics. Huge fan. Yeah. Um, so okay, well this 2:49:21.160 --> 2:49:25.360 has been great. Yeah, I'm glad this is happening. Yeah. Yeah, 2:49:25.400 --> 2:49:28.120 it's cool and fun. Yeah. I'm not usually fun to 2:49:28.160 --> 2:49:31.440 hang out with when I talk about work stuff, I know, 2:49:31.680 --> 2:49:34.400 but it's like it's again, people need to be aware 2:49:34.440 --> 2:49:36.920 of this, Like this is one of those just in 2:49:37.000 --> 2:49:39.600 the same way that like people were talking about for 2:49:39.800 --> 2:49:42.680 years prior to COVID. Hey, we we actually really need 2:49:42.720 --> 2:49:44.960 to be aware, like a coronavirus could break out and 2:49:45.040 --> 2:49:47.320 it will spread really quickly due to the way that 2:49:47.400 --> 2:49:50.680 global travel and transit and stuff works, and it'll be 2:49:50.720 --> 2:49:54.520 almost impossible to control. Um, you know, we should we 2:49:54.560 --> 2:49:58.119 should build structures into our societies to make it easier 2:49:58.200 --> 2:50:00.760 for us to deal with a coronavirus, which we didn't do, 2:50:01.040 --> 2:50:04.000 but maybe we'll do it this time. Yeah, well what 2:50:04.160 --> 2:50:06.199 makes it really fun? I'm just gonna I'm gonna build 2:50:06.200 --> 2:50:09.000 off you for a second. You've fallen into my trap here. 2:50:09.400 --> 2:50:12.680 The same people who were writing about like mers and 2:50:12.920 --> 2:50:16.880 predicted you know, I can't remember which game first merser Stars, 2:50:17.080 --> 2:50:19.119 I can't remember which one. The same people who predicted 2:50:19.200 --> 2:50:22.840 that and then who are also predicting um COVID are 2:50:22.920 --> 2:50:26.240 also talking about chronic wasting disease. So it's like, you know, 2:50:26.760 --> 2:50:28.600 I really hope you don't get to be right on 2:50:28.680 --> 2:50:31.000 this one. You know, I just want you to lose 2:50:31.120 --> 2:50:33.560 one of these times here, Bud. You're a nice guy, 2:50:33.800 --> 2:50:37.040 real smart guy, but can you be wrong occasionally, just 2:50:37.240 --> 2:50:39.360 for just for like you know, old time's sake. Just 2:50:39.480 --> 2:50:48.280 be nice to me. Yeah, well, there we go. Um, 2:50:48.680 --> 2:50:52.080 that's been a fun episode. Everybody have a good time. Um, 2:50:52.440 --> 2:50:54.560 thank you, Calvin. Do you have anything you want to 2:50:54.600 --> 2:50:56.680 like plug before we roll out here? Yeah? I would 2:50:56.720 --> 2:51:00.800 like to plug. Trees' is real neat try that we 2:51:00.920 --> 2:51:05.680 are supported by trees. Um, not the plant, but a 2:51:05.760 --> 2:51:08.600 club in Dallas that I took ecstasy at once. That's 2:51:08.600 --> 2:51:12.160 a primary sponsors physically supported by trees. My computers on 2:51:12.240 --> 2:51:15.960 wood so oh excellent? Yeah? Is that also good? Yeah, 2:51:16.320 --> 2:51:18.600 trees like to plug. Also getting outside, that's good for you? 2:51:18.760 --> 2:51:23.440 Do that consolutely get outside for sure? Yeah. Uh. Tweet 2:51:23.480 --> 2:51:26.640 tweets from from birds. I don't do the twitters, not 2:51:26.840 --> 2:51:30.600 not from Twitter yes, definitely. Yeah, those are things that 2:51:30.600 --> 2:51:33.560 I'd like to plug. Yeah, Replacing the tweets from Twitter 2:51:33.680 --> 2:51:36.280 that you encounter with tweets from birds is probably among 2:51:36.360 --> 2:51:38.240 the best things you can do for your mental health, 2:51:39.879 --> 2:51:41.880 unless it's this one bird that lived outside of my 2:51:41.920 --> 2:51:45.959 apartment in Los Angeles. But anyway, um well, Calvin, thank 2:51:46.000 --> 2:51:49.640 you for coming on. I appreciate your expertise, even though 2:51:49.760 --> 2:51:55.400 it's always deeply unsettling. Um that's gonna do it for 2:51:55.600 --> 2:51:58.840 all of us here today. And it could happen here, 2:51:58.959 --> 2:52:18.000 by which I mean you would me, oh boy, it 2:52:18.240 --> 2:52:22.960 is behind the it happened could here. I'm Evans Robert 2:52:23.440 --> 2:52:30.640 podcast song. Hello, who else is on the call? What 2:52:30.720 --> 2:52:37.200 are we doing? Where are we? It's it's it's me. Uh, 2:52:37.440 --> 2:52:40.880 It's Christopher Wong. I'm gonna talk a lot this episode. 2:52:41.000 --> 2:52:43.800 There's also other people are here you are now. Before 2:52:43.800 --> 2:52:46.440 we get into that, I should note that we were 2:52:46.480 --> 2:52:49.480 all just looking at the latest episode of podcast Magazine, 2:52:49.520 --> 2:52:55.080 which of course we all read regularly. That's the list 2:52:55.600 --> 2:52:58.360 I do like that to describe you as uh uh, 2:52:59.680 --> 2:53:01.720 they they describe you in a few funny ways. Actually, 2:53:02.040 --> 2:53:04.359 yes they do. It's a list of the most powerful 2:53:04.440 --> 2:53:10.400 people in podcasting, Um, of course gotten me obviously all 2:53:10.480 --> 2:53:13.640 the greats. On page forty seven we have Robert Evans, 2:53:13.680 --> 2:53:16.199 who and they do say that he has also undertaken 2:53:16.240 --> 2:53:19.120 an ambitious daily series called It Could Happen Here that 2:53:19.240 --> 2:53:21.640 takes us on some of the weightiest issues and problems 2:53:21.720 --> 2:53:28.200 facing policymakers. I will say this, if you are a 2:53:28.280 --> 2:53:31.520 policymaker and you have ever taken a policy suggestion for us, 2:53:31.760 --> 2:53:34.800 you have a legal obligation to like light your own 2:53:34.840 --> 2:53:37.880 office on fire with a molotov. I do like that 2:53:38.120 --> 2:53:43.440 Robert Evans don't listen to Chris do it policymakers. I 2:53:43.520 --> 2:53:46.800 do like that Robert Evans is right above the serial creators. 2:53:47.000 --> 2:53:51.600 So that's that is above Trevor Noah. I mean I don't, 2:53:51.640 --> 2:53:54.720 I literally don't think it's like it listed because there 2:53:54.840 --> 2:53:57.360 is no way in in the list. Bin Shapiro is 2:53:57.400 --> 2:54:00.800 above Joe Rogan, and that's just not accurate to the 2:54:01.280 --> 2:54:03.960 to the to the to the way the industry functions. 2:54:04.040 --> 2:54:07.240 But it's a very silly. Listen. It's been fun reading 2:54:07.320 --> 2:54:10.400 through our latest issue of our favorite of our favorite 2:54:10.440 --> 2:54:14.879 podcast magazine, podcast magazine made by podcast News Daily, where 2:54:14.879 --> 2:54:17.400 you can get all your news about podcasts. The thing 2:54:17.520 --> 2:54:21.720 that I totally knew about for I've known about this 2:54:21.920 --> 2:54:24.720 clearly for longer than fifteen minutes. Actually, that's that's not true. 2:54:24.760 --> 2:54:30.879 I've known about it for longer than eight minutes. Maybe twelve. Yeah, 2:54:31.920 --> 2:54:35.920 m hmm. It's an amazing photo. Was happy to get 2:54:36.760 --> 2:54:38.480 I was it was happy. Was happy to get in 2:54:38.560 --> 2:54:42.040 some fine reading today. Uh So, anyway, what's what's what's this? 2:54:42.240 --> 2:54:46.360 What's our episode actually about? It's a great question. It's 2:54:46.360 --> 2:54:51.360 a podcast power rating episode. Yeah, yeah, we're We're I 2:54:51.400 --> 2:54:53.280 don't even have anywhere to go with that. No, the thing, 2:54:53.360 --> 2:54:56.240 the thing the episode is actually about is heat waves, 2:54:56.240 --> 2:54:59.760 and very specifically a heat wave in China that has 2:54:59.800 --> 2:55:03.119 been going on for Why this is day seven as 2:55:03.120 --> 2:55:06.760 we're recording, this is day seventy two. I think by 2:55:06.959 --> 2:55:08.960 the time Let's Go Out goes out, it will probably 2:55:09.080 --> 2:55:13.600 be like day seventy four. Um. Yeah, And this is 2:55:15.680 --> 2:55:19.400 and and incomparable heat wave. I'm just gonna read this 2:55:19.560 --> 2:55:23.040 from Axios. The extreme heat and drought that has been 2:55:23.120 --> 2:55:26.000 most roasting a vast swath of southern China for at 2:55:26.040 --> 2:55:29.039 least seventy days straight has no parallel and modern record 2:55:29.160 --> 2:55:32.200 keeping in China or anywhere else around the world for 2:55:32.320 --> 2:55:36.160 that matter. Now, Okay, so that sounds bad, right, but 2:55:36.240 --> 2:55:39.240 it's actually worse than that because okay, so if if 2:55:39.320 --> 2:55:41.960 if you were to read that, you you might believe 2:55:42.200 --> 2:55:44.760 that this heat wave is just affecting southern China, and 2:55:44.879 --> 2:55:48.240 that's like not true. It's also affecting northern China. It 2:55:48.320 --> 2:55:52.680 is affecting like most of China. It's like affecting almost 2:55:52.760 --> 2:55:59.000 like most people alive is nine million people, which is 2:55:59.200 --> 2:56:02.920 like Chris quick question, is that a lot? So? Okay, 2:56:02.959 --> 2:56:05.000 so if if if you rank all the countries in 2:56:05.040 --> 2:56:08.080 the world, right, the people affected by this heat wave 2:56:08.120 --> 2:56:10.120 would be the third largest country in the world, only 2:56:10.320 --> 2:56:15.000 behind China and India. Okay, so that's that's several people. 2:56:15.480 --> 2:56:18.360 It's it's fun, is it more people than the British 2:56:18.400 --> 2:56:20.560 people who have been logging onto post about it being 2:56:20.680 --> 2:56:25.520 like five degrees and them like, I do love. One 2:56:25.560 --> 2:56:27.760 of the things that's keeping me alive during this ugly 2:56:27.879 --> 2:56:30.600 summer is like all of the photos of British people 2:56:30.760 --> 2:56:33.000 just getting as red as possible because they think the 2:56:33.120 --> 2:56:39.520 tanning means burning of your body. It's hard for me 2:56:39.640 --> 2:56:42.120 to explain how difficult it was for me to comprehend 2:56:42.200 --> 2:56:44.800 that in California they won't serve you if you have 2:56:44.959 --> 2:56:47.640 your shirt off, because it is a national tradition in 2:56:47.760 --> 2:56:49.959 Britain to take off your shirt and get as much 2:56:50.040 --> 2:56:52.960 some note as possible, or if you're getting into a 2:56:53.040 --> 2:56:57.560 fist fight as well. Well, the number of folks pull 2:56:57.640 --> 2:57:02.400 their shirts off and fights in London. Yeah, it's it's 2:57:02.480 --> 2:57:06.160 part of a natural heritage. It's it's a beautiful country. 2:57:06.200 --> 2:57:09.480 But please continue, Chris, Yeah, okay, So so you know, 2:57:09.760 --> 2:57:12.160 to get a sense of like the stakes of this, right, 2:57:13.000 --> 2:57:15.879 so okay, and like they just just the sheer scale 2:57:15.920 --> 2:57:18.520 of this because people is an amount of people that, like, 2:57:18.640 --> 2:57:22.400 we like is incomprehensible. Think that's a number that's too large. 2:57:23.360 --> 2:57:26.480 So okay. Sichuan Province, right, this is this is one 2:57:26.600 --> 2:57:29.400 province that is being affected by this. This province has 2:57:29.440 --> 2:57:32.039 eighty three million people in it. This is the entire 2:57:32.240 --> 2:57:37.480 combined population of California, Texas, Indiana, and New York City. Um, 2:57:37.800 --> 2:57:40.879 here's here's in France twenty four about what's happening here. 2:57:41.640 --> 2:57:44.280 Since July this year, the province has faced the most 2:57:44.360 --> 2:57:48.400 extreme high temperatures the lowest rainfall in the corresponding period 2:57:48.480 --> 2:57:51.480 in history and the highest power load in history. Local 2:57:51.520 --> 2:57:55.360 authorities said, so it is hotter than it has ever been. 2:57:55.920 --> 2:57:59.320 It is drier than it has ever been except and 2:57:59.480 --> 2:58:01.680 and this is the fun part. This is the similar 2:58:01.760 --> 2:58:04.720 similar was happening in Texas, and I think, yeah, well, 2:58:04.760 --> 2:58:06.880 I'm texts probably the best example of this. Okay, So 2:58:07.000 --> 2:58:09.400 it's really really really unbelievably dry, except for when there's 2:58:09.400 --> 2:58:11.680 giant flash floods and they've killed like twenty two people 2:58:11.720 --> 2:58:15.000 already have have died from the flash floods um the 2:58:15.080 --> 2:58:20.280 different province. But yeah, it is unbelievably bleak. Um. One 2:58:20.320 --> 2:58:22.240 of the big things that's happening is that the Yanksy 2:58:22.360 --> 2:58:26.720 River is like the lowest anyone has ever seen it. 2:58:26.800 --> 2:58:29.160 Who's like, anyone alive has ever seen it. It's the 2:58:29.200 --> 2:58:32.480 lowest we have recorded measurements of because like I, this 2:58:32.600 --> 2:58:36.000 is everything is happening here, like there is no record 2:58:36.120 --> 2:58:40.040 of it ever being this bad. And this is a 2:58:40.120 --> 2:58:46.680 real problem because particularly in such one because of this 2:58:46.800 --> 2:58:50.840 province's power is drawn from hydro electric and you know, 2:58:50.959 --> 2:58:54.560 it turns out it's it's really bad if the rivers 2:58:54.600 --> 2:58:56.640 that you are relying on for your hydro electric power 2:58:56.680 --> 2:58:59.200 are basically drying up, and like like there's there's pictures 2:58:59.360 --> 2:59:01.600 of like like you can go find pictures of this 2:59:01.640 --> 2:59:03.840 that there are pictures of the yankste that like it 2:59:03.920 --> 2:59:07.040 looks like a riverbed on Mars, like is just just 2:59:07.400 --> 2:59:15.480 completely dry, Like it's like dry cragged stuff. It's really Again, 2:59:15.600 --> 2:59:20.360 this is just to kind of bring out how worldwide 2:59:20.400 --> 2:59:23.960 this problem is. We're seeing pieces of this everywhere else, 2:59:24.080 --> 2:59:26.240 right Like Texas, which is also in a horrible drought, 2:59:26.280 --> 2:59:29.040 has been having flash floods that have been disastrous recently 2:59:29.080 --> 2:59:30.760 because when it's been super dry for a while and 2:59:30.800 --> 2:59:33.720 you have these these heavy rains, it's it's a huge 2:59:33.800 --> 2:59:36.720 fucking problem. And you've got riverbeds drying up all across 2:59:36.760 --> 2:59:39.480 the Southwest and things like Lake Mead getting low enough 2:59:39.520 --> 2:59:42.200 that hydro electric power isn't going to be reliable. A 2:59:42.280 --> 2:59:45.240 huge chunk about like the the again, because it's important 2:59:45.320 --> 2:59:47.880 not to distract from like what's happening in China, but 2:59:47.920 --> 2:59:50.080 because it's important, like this is this is everybody, This 2:59:50.200 --> 2:59:55.560 is everybody, yes in India all over yeah yeah, and 2:59:55.800 --> 2:59:59.800 and you know, okay, so the seat wave and trying to, like, 3:00:00.000 --> 3:00:02.480 there's been very very little English coverage of it, and 3:00:02.640 --> 3:00:04.520 the thing that everyone focuses on is the fact that 3:00:04.640 --> 3:00:07.760 like the power audergy, well, the the reduced ability to 3:00:07.800 --> 3:00:09.520 generate power and the fact that everyone has to turn 3:00:09.600 --> 3:00:12.320 on the air conditions and not like literally die is 3:00:12.879 --> 3:00:14.760 you know, it's wreaking havoc on China set of productive 3:00:14.800 --> 3:00:19.000 capacity since such one has like there there there's an 3:00:19.120 --> 3:00:22.640 enormous like industrial base there that you know, produces stuff 3:00:22.640 --> 3:00:25.000 from everything from like Tesla to Apple. And this is 3:00:25.040 --> 3:00:27.080 what the sort of the anglephone media cares about, right, 3:00:27.160 --> 3:00:29.280 like everything that almost everything written about the heat wave 3:00:29.879 --> 3:00:32.400 is about its effect on like supply chain disruption, disruption 3:00:32.440 --> 3:00:34.600 to like semi conduct your production and like batteries for 3:00:34.680 --> 3:00:36.680 electronic exs on and so forth. And I do not 3:00:36.840 --> 3:00:39.440 give a shit about this, um And the reason I 3:00:39.480 --> 3:00:41.720 don't give a shit about this is because the actual 3:00:41.840 --> 3:00:46.320 human impact of this is just sort of unfathomable, and 3:00:46.920 --> 3:00:50.879 the media outlets we're talking about it like don't seem 3:00:50.920 --> 3:00:53.720 to be paying attention to it at all. Um So, 3:00:53.879 --> 3:00:57.160 while I was originally okay, so uh when I when 3:00:57.160 --> 3:01:00.320 I was originally writing part of this episode owed I 3:01:00.440 --> 3:01:03.320 went and like looked back at weather data for Shanghai 3:01:04.440 --> 3:01:06.600 and so okay, when I was running this on August, 3:01:07.600 --> 3:01:10.880 that day was a hundred and three in Shanghai, like 3:01:11.040 --> 3:01:13.160 two weeks before that it was a hundred and eleven. 3:01:14.080 --> 3:01:18.480 And I found out that from July to August, the 3:01:18.879 --> 3:01:22.160 like the high temperature, like the daily high temperature like 3:01:22.280 --> 3:01:25.600 did not go below a hundred. On the one it 3:01:25.720 --> 3:01:30.080 finally rained and that dropped the temperature to merely four. 3:01:30.640 --> 3:01:35.960 I think either tomorrow today or tomorrow, I think it 3:01:36.040 --> 3:01:40.560 will go below ninety. This is all now, this is 3:01:40.600 --> 3:01:42.200 this is this is this is the temperature of the day. 3:01:42.200 --> 3:01:44.600 But after during the night aren't going below like seventy either, 3:01:44.640 --> 3:01:45.640 then a lot a lot of times are in the 3:01:45.680 --> 3:01:50.720 eighties or nineties, And and that the temperature at night 3:01:50.879 --> 3:01:53.560 does just for people who are not aware of like heat. 3:01:54.000 --> 3:01:56.120 One of the things that's most important for like the 3:01:56.200 --> 3:01:58.400 survivability of a heat wave is whether or not it 3:01:58.480 --> 3:02:01.760 gets cool at night, because can survive pretty hot temperatures 3:02:01.840 --> 3:02:03.840 during the day. If you were able to cool your 3:02:03.840 --> 3:02:06.039 body down at night, it's one of the like one 3:02:06.080 --> 3:02:08.400 of the saving grace is the Pacific Northwest had during 3:02:08.440 --> 3:02:10.360 its seat waves. But yeah, and and this is this 3:02:10.480 --> 3:02:13.400 is a really like so Chunking, which is an enormous city. 3:02:13.959 --> 3:02:17.000 It has nine million people like regularly in the city. 3:02:17.040 --> 3:02:20.680 It's Chunking. The city is also the municipal like government there, 3:02:20.720 --> 3:02:22.000 so there's a whole sort of complicate thing there. But 3:02:22.080 --> 3:02:24.879 like the municipality of Chunking is thirty two million people 3:02:24.920 --> 3:02:28.480 in it. Uh. They had a night I a couple 3:02:28.520 --> 3:02:30.840 I think a couple of weeks ago that was ninety 3:02:30.959 --> 3:02:35.640 four point eight degrees and which is again like that 3:02:35.840 --> 3:02:38.080 is a night that is significantly hotter than the average 3:02:38.080 --> 3:02:41.600 summer day. And you know, I mean, like I want 3:02:41.600 --> 3:02:43.080 to go back to Shanghai for just like a second, 3:02:43.200 --> 3:02:47.520 because like Shanghai, I looked this, I I looked this up. 3:02:47.560 --> 3:02:50.600 Shanghai has not had a day where the high has 3:02:50.680 --> 3:02:53.320 been below eighty nine degrees for two consecutive days since 3:02:53.480 --> 3:02:58.200 mid June. It has been over ninety degrees every single 3:02:58.360 --> 3:03:01.200 day like with without two days back to back. It 3:03:01.360 --> 3:03:05.600 wasn't that hot since mid June um And you know, okay, 3:03:05.680 --> 3:03:08.400 so like the this is having enormous effects. One of 3:03:08.480 --> 3:03:12.560 the big ones, the most noticeable ones is like basically 3:03:12.640 --> 3:03:14.680 like any excess power usage that a city can have 3:03:14.800 --> 3:03:17.440 is just getting shut off. There's been a lot of uh, 3:03:17.560 --> 3:03:19.199 there's been a lot of stuff where like businesses aren't 3:03:19.200 --> 3:03:22.560 allowed to open before like four pm because it's literally 3:03:22.640 --> 3:03:25.959 just too hot and you can't deal with electricity load 3:03:26.879 --> 3:03:29.200 and yeah, like and you know the other the other 3:03:29.240 --> 3:03:31.160 problem here again it's like it's not cooling off at night. 3:03:31.200 --> 3:03:34.280 And if it's not cooling off at night, yeah, like 3:03:34.360 --> 3:03:36.200 that this is this is the thing that kills people. Um, 3:03:37.959 --> 3:03:40.080 and so well, the one of the things I want 3:03:40.080 --> 3:03:41.960 to talk about this is just like looking at this, 3:03:42.240 --> 3:03:43.720 looking at what this looks like on like a very 3:03:43.840 --> 3:03:48.520 very granular individual level, because this stuff also just sort 3:03:48.560 --> 3:03:51.440 of gets ignored. Um. There is a really horrible story 3:03:51.480 --> 3:03:55.160 in six Tone, which is like it's hard to describe them. 3:03:55.200 --> 3:03:58.920 So six Tone is a state media outlet, but they're 3:03:59.040 --> 3:04:01.240 like I don't know, I guess you consider them like 3:04:01.480 --> 3:04:04.840 they're they're like the left wing state media outlet, which 3:04:04.920 --> 3:04:07.920 means that like they have somewhat more like editorial independence 3:04:08.040 --> 3:04:09.840 than like something like China Daily or like a lot 3:04:09.840 --> 3:04:13.160 of the other state run things, and they like they 3:04:13.240 --> 3:04:16.920 criticize the government a lot more than uh, most of 3:04:16.959 --> 3:04:19.560 the sort of state run outlets. And they did this 3:04:19.720 --> 3:04:23.120 story about a migrant worker who was working at a 3:04:23.160 --> 3:04:26.600 freight depot about like he's this is this depos about 3:04:26.600 --> 3:04:29.880 like two and a half hours outside of Shanghai, and okay, 3:04:29.920 --> 3:04:35.320 so he's he's working and it is you know, it is. 3:04:35.360 --> 3:04:38.520 It is unbelievably hot. I think. I think the last 3:04:38.640 --> 3:04:40.640 day that he's working here, it's a hundred and four 3:04:40.680 --> 3:04:43.640 degrees and that night it only cooled off to four. 3:04:44.320 --> 3:04:46.600 Here's from six toned about sort of just the conditions 3:04:46.640 --> 3:04:49.560 that people are working in here. On the hottest days, 3:04:49.600 --> 3:04:52.320 the temper side the carriages is at least fifty degrees celsius, 3:04:52.360 --> 3:04:55.520 which is a hundred and twenty two degrees fahrenheit, says you. 3:04:55.760 --> 3:04:57.959 He had Dong, a worker from Junk c and other 3:04:58.000 --> 3:05:01.000 Inland Province. It feels like you're on fire standing here. 3:05:01.040 --> 3:05:05.520 Around noon, his employer, an outsourcing agency, hands out heat 3:05:05.560 --> 3:05:08.600 stroke profession drugs, which he takes twice a day. At 3:05:08.640 --> 3:05:11.440 the freight depot. Managers sit in air conditioned rooms, but 3:05:11.560 --> 3:05:14.560 workers like him rest under trees. The office is not 3:05:14.720 --> 3:05:18.800 for us, you says, now, okay. In theory, under Chinese 3:05:18.879 --> 3:05:21.680 law if it hits a hundred and four degrees, outdoor 3:05:21.720 --> 3:05:23.760 work is supposed to immediately stop, and you're supposed to 3:05:23.800 --> 3:05:26.120 move everyone indoors and like give them water and stuff. 3:05:26.200 --> 3:05:29.039 Because it turns out if you're working like a hard 3:05:29.080 --> 3:05:30.840 man or labor job outside and a hundred and four 3:05:31.360 --> 3:05:34.720 you might die. But you know, you and you're a 3:05:34.800 --> 3:05:37.920 you're supposed to get paid heat breaks, and like, you know, 3:05:38.440 --> 3:05:40.840 as as anyone who is familiar with, for example, how 3:05:40.879 --> 3:05:43.480 American farm labor works, you know what happens about to 3:05:43.480 --> 3:05:45.920 happen next. Uh, it turns out that you know, okay, 3:05:45.959 --> 3:05:47.720 so you can take a break, but your employers won't 3:05:47.720 --> 3:05:50.400 pay you for it because like they don't know who's who, 3:05:50.400 --> 3:05:53.240 who's gonna who's gonna actually force them to do it. John, 3:05:53.360 --> 3:05:56.840 who's the work of the story is about, you know, 3:05:57.240 --> 3:06:00.160 is extremely poor. His family is poor. He's on his 3:06:00.200 --> 3:06:04.360 support a family like back home because again he's he's 3:06:04.360 --> 3:06:08.120 a migrant worker and he you know, he can't he 3:06:08.200 --> 3:06:09.960 can't afford to take a break on his ship. So 3:06:10.000 --> 3:06:13.440 he doesn't die, and so he he literally collapses on 3:06:13.560 --> 3:06:17.320 the job and then gets back up and finishes his work, 3:06:17.879 --> 3:06:20.200 and he tries to cool down by like laying in 3:06:20.360 --> 3:06:23.200 his tiny, young, un air conditioned apartments with like an 3:06:23.240 --> 3:06:26.920 electric fan pointed at his head. And he died on 3:06:27.000 --> 3:06:29.600 a bed that was held up by two broken cinder blocks, 3:06:29.720 --> 3:06:37.760 making maybe four dollars an hour. M Yeah, and you know, yeah, 3:06:37.879 --> 3:06:39.720 and I mean, you know, the thing about this, right 3:06:39.760 --> 3:06:42.600 is so in theory, he's working for for a state 3:06:42.640 --> 3:06:45.240 owned company, right, but you know, as as as we 3:06:45.320 --> 3:06:47.039 talked about like a little bit in that the sort 3:06:47.040 --> 3:06:50.440 of quote earlier, he's not actually working for the state 3:06:50.480 --> 3:06:52.320 owned firm. What he's working for is one of these 3:06:52.440 --> 3:06:54.720 like labor agencies, which are these like sort of contracting 3:06:54.800 --> 3:06:58.520 things that allow you to actually get a job. But 3:06:58.840 --> 3:07:01.000 you know what what happens is the state of firms 3:07:01.120 --> 3:07:03.920 like outsourced of labor to the the two these contracting firms, 3:07:04.879 --> 3:07:07.120 and the contracting firms just like pick people up and 3:07:07.160 --> 3:07:08.480 bring them to the site. But this means he doesn't 3:07:08.480 --> 3:07:11.400 have a contract. And the problem is if you don't 3:07:11.400 --> 3:07:13.680 have if you don't have a contract, right, you can't 3:07:13.720 --> 3:07:17.080 get any government benefits, you can't get insurance. And it 3:07:17.120 --> 3:07:20.119 turns out this matters because you know, China, China has 3:07:20.280 --> 3:07:22.480 like a payout right that they're supposed to pay to 3:07:22.600 --> 3:07:26.200 families when you know, if someone dies in the job, 3:07:26.320 --> 3:07:28.440 but you know, it's almost impossible to collect, especially if 3:07:28.480 --> 3:07:31.000 you don't have a contract. It is it is almost 3:07:31.040 --> 3:07:35.640 impossible to to get this thing, um, And you know, 3:07:35.720 --> 3:07:37.960 like this is this is how like most of the 3:07:38.040 --> 3:07:41.520 Chinese economy works. The Chinese General Trong calculated that in 3:07:42.720 --> 3:07:45.160 Funk One, which is one of like China's big industrial cities, 3:07:45.440 --> 3:07:48.080 if companies actually paid out the insurance benefits they were 3:07:48.160 --> 3:07:51.440 legally required to pay out, it would cut corporate profit 3:07:51.480 --> 3:07:56.240 by and bankrupt like most of the company's working. Here's 3:07:56.440 --> 3:07:59.280 you know, the entire economy is based on this. And 3:08:00.760 --> 3:08:04.720 John's family drives like three d and fifty miles to 3:08:04.879 --> 3:08:07.080 the city where he died and starts like harassing government 3:08:07.120 --> 3:08:10.680 officials and bosses for like literally weeks. They are trying 3:08:10.720 --> 3:08:12.480 to get people to like, hey, you know, will you 3:08:12.560 --> 3:08:15.000 pay out the insurance money you're legally required to pay us? 3:08:15.760 --> 3:08:21.080 And they refuse, like the local officials like won't even 3:08:21.120 --> 3:08:24.040 give them like surveillance footage of like what like of 3:08:24.280 --> 3:08:27.920 him on the job dying. And you know, after like 3:08:28.879 --> 3:08:31.240 several weeks of his like four or five weeks, their 3:08:31.280 --> 3:08:33.280 finally able to get a sixth of the money they're 3:08:33.280 --> 3:08:35.200 supposed to get if you die, if someone dies under 3:08:35.520 --> 3:08:37.960 sort of like they're able to get a six of 3:08:38.000 --> 3:08:39.600 the money that you're supposed to get into Chinese law 3:08:39.640 --> 3:08:42.800 if one of your family embraers dies into workplace. And 3:08:43.200 --> 3:08:45.640 you know, I'm focusing on this story because it's one 3:08:45.680 --> 3:08:48.600 of the few stories that we have directly about sort 3:08:48.640 --> 3:08:50.760 of the sheer magnitude of the suffering the heat wave 3:08:51.360 --> 3:08:54.960 is causing. And part of part of what's going on 3:08:55.120 --> 3:08:56.640 here is that we don't know what the death told 3:08:56.640 --> 3:08:58.920 the heat wave is. There's there's nothing about it, right 3:08:59.000 --> 3:09:01.720 you You'll see a couple reports I'll talk about like 3:09:01.800 --> 3:09:03.800 two or three heat related death but it's it is 3:09:03.879 --> 3:09:08.440 literally impossible that there are that few deaths um there. 3:09:08.480 --> 3:09:10.480 There there was a study in the journal Lancet that 3:09:10.560 --> 3:09:13.080 was looking at heat related deaths in China over the 3:09:13.200 --> 3:09:16.880 last thirty years, and it showed that like heat related 3:09:16.920 --> 3:09:19.240 deaths have died increased by a factor of four since 3:09:20.560 --> 3:09:22.560 and you know, so there was there was another heatwave 3:09:22.600 --> 3:09:24.560 in China that was like pretty bad in twenty nineteen, 3:09:24.800 --> 3:09:30.280 and they calculated that eight hundred people had died from 3:09:30.280 --> 3:09:33.840 heat related deaths Jesus, and you know and again that 3:09:33.959 --> 3:09:36.720 that that heat wave heat wave was pretty bad. This 3:09:36.840 --> 3:09:41.280 heat wave, like it has just utterly destroyed every single 3:09:41.400 --> 3:09:44.080 record that heat waves set, Like it is in like 3:09:44.280 --> 3:09:47.520 its own universe of heat waves. So it has killed 3:09:48.040 --> 3:09:49.720 like probably by the end of this it will have 3:09:49.879 --> 3:09:56.200 killed like tens of thousands of people. Yep. And yeah, 3:09:56.440 --> 3:10:00.120 which is really bleak. And you know what I'm I 3:10:00.200 --> 3:10:01.400 think like part of the reason also I wanted to 3:10:01.400 --> 3:10:04.840 talk about, like the specific story is that like you know, 3:10:05.040 --> 3:10:08.520 so the weather itself like is trying to like is 3:10:09.000 --> 3:10:14.200 enough to kill you, right, But like okay, so like this, 3:10:14.400 --> 3:10:18.200 like this kind of heat is survivable if like you know, 3:10:18.280 --> 3:10:20.200 if if if you're in a situation where you can 3:10:20.240 --> 3:10:22.240 be inside and where you can be hydrated and stuff 3:10:22.240 --> 3:10:25.039 like that. But you know, hey, capitalism exists. I means 3:10:25.040 --> 3:10:26.760 you have to keep working during this ship and that's 3:10:27.160 --> 3:10:31.400 just going to keep killing people. UM. I wanted to 3:10:31.440 --> 3:10:32.800 sort of also look at sort of some of the 3:10:32.879 --> 3:10:34.920 historical heat waves to also to get a sense of 3:10:34.959 --> 3:10:38.480 how many people like probably died in this one. Um. 3:10:38.600 --> 3:10:41.120 I think like maybe the most famous heat wave like 3:10:41.320 --> 3:10:43.320 in in my lifetime, well until this one, I guess 3:10:43.560 --> 3:10:47.000 was that heat wave in Europe thousand three and that 3:10:47.160 --> 3:10:51.720 one killed something like seventy people. Um, and there's a 3:10:51.760 --> 3:10:53.400 lot of very interesting stuff that we learned from this 3:10:53.440 --> 3:10:55.920 heat wave about what heat waves to you. It's sort 3:10:55.959 --> 3:10:58.840 of in general. The United Nations, like in fine mental program, 3:10:58.920 --> 3:11:01.800 like released a report about this, and there's ulti really 3:11:01.800 --> 3:11:03.959 interesting stuff and I mean, okay, so the obvious one 3:11:04.040 --> 3:11:08.320 is that this has a massive effect on agriculture, which okay, yeah, 3:11:08.520 --> 3:11:10.240 Like you can ask a four year old and they 3:11:10.280 --> 3:11:13.879 will tell you that this is bad and this is happening. 3:11:13.920 --> 3:11:17.360 This is affecting China right now too, because um, this 3:11:17.600 --> 3:11:20.280 drought is hitting like right in the middle of a 3:11:20.320 --> 3:11:24.200 lot of kind of bread basket. So yeah, there's all 3:11:24.240 --> 3:11:28.040 these sort of like downstream effects that we'll see later. Um. 3:11:29.400 --> 3:11:31.680 One of the other fun parts about this this is 3:11:31.800 --> 3:11:33.800 when she doesn't three heat wave. I'm just gonna read 3:11:33.840 --> 3:11:38.280 this quote. Massive alpine glaciers decreased by ten in two 3:11:38.360 --> 3:11:42.080 thousand three. And yeah, okay, so you know what you're 3:11:42.080 --> 3:11:44.360 seeing here, right is this sort of sickler thing where 3:11:44.959 --> 3:11:47.640 each each heat wave, you know, does things like melt glaciers, right, 3:11:47.640 --> 3:11:49.640 and that makes the next heat wave worse because when 3:11:49.680 --> 3:11:52.240 when you when you lose glacier mass, you're you're you're 3:11:52.280 --> 3:11:55.360 you're losing surface area that reflects light, which increases level 3:11:55.360 --> 3:11:56.640 of warming. And this is sort of you know, this 3:11:56.720 --> 3:11:59.880 is one of those sort of feedback loops that where 3:12:00.040 --> 3:12:04.680 we're dealing with. Um uh, you know another thing that 3:12:05.040 --> 3:12:08.120 we've been seeing a lot in the US had this 3:12:08.320 --> 3:12:10.800 like pretty badly. I mean, I guess like anyone who 3:12:10.840 --> 3:12:14.480 lives in the Pacific Northwest like understands this. There's just 3:12:14.680 --> 3:12:17.360 there are just fires constantly because it turns out that 3:12:17.400 --> 3:12:19.840 when it's really hot, things just lead on fire. Um. 3:12:19.920 --> 3:12:22.160 In the in the two three one there were twenty 3:12:22.280 --> 3:12:26.879 five thousand fires and they burned something like six fifty 3:12:26.959 --> 3:12:30.840 thousand head acres of forest. And even the places it 3:12:30.920 --> 3:12:36.199 didn't burn, it causes sort of like severe, severe ecological 3:12:36.320 --> 3:12:41.119 damage to these forests because like the they the heat 3:12:41.280 --> 3:12:45.320 leaves trees, for example, like a lot weaker than're supposed 3:12:45.320 --> 3:12:47.160 to mean, this leaves in vulnerable to things like plagues 3:12:47.200 --> 3:12:49.480 and like into the waves of insects and this, you know, 3:12:49.640 --> 3:12:52.400 like everything that's happening here with these heat waves, like 3:12:52.760 --> 3:12:55.520 we weakens the environments that are supposed to be sort 3:12:55.560 --> 3:12:59.600 of like mitigating the effects of climate change. Um we 3:12:59.760 --> 3:13:01.480 were so we also like on the sort of like 3:13:01.560 --> 3:13:04.120 human front, we we talked about how heat waves can 3:13:04.200 --> 3:13:07.840 knock out uh he waves can knock out hydro electric power. 3:13:07.879 --> 3:13:10.080 It turns out they can also knock out nuclear power 3:13:10.160 --> 3:13:14.160 plants because nuclear power plants rely on like dumping their 3:13:14.200 --> 3:13:17.880 cooling water back into rivers. Now there's like there's there's 3:13:17.959 --> 3:13:20.280 legal limits on how hot like the water you can 3:13:20.360 --> 3:13:23.120 dump into these rivers is supposed to be. Because it 3:13:23.160 --> 3:13:24.440 turns out, you know if okay, if you have a 3:13:24.480 --> 3:13:26.400 bunch of boiling water into river is gonna kill everything 3:13:26.440 --> 3:13:29.800 in it. But as the sort of cooling process like 3:13:30.760 --> 3:13:33.520 gets more difficult because the water levels are lower, you 3:13:33.640 --> 3:13:35.840 have to take power plants offline because otherwise you're going 3:13:35.920 --> 3:13:38.840 to just kill everything in the river when you when 3:13:38.840 --> 3:13:41.680 you're venting your sort of exhaust heat and into it 3:13:41.920 --> 3:13:44.080 got into three it gets bad enough that like a 3:13:44.160 --> 3:13:47.040 bunch of companies get exemptions right there, like Okay, it's 3:13:47.040 --> 3:13:48.640 an emergency, we can turn this on. We can like 3:13:48.760 --> 3:13:50.640 we can vent all this hot water back in the rivers. 3:13:50.760 --> 3:13:52.959 But you know, you can only do this so many 3:13:53.040 --> 3:13:55.800 times before your revocably funk up the ecosystem of the river. 3:13:56.360 --> 3:13:58.520 And again this is this is this is the problem, right, 3:13:58.959 --> 3:14:01.480 Like you get you're getting into these feedback loops. You're 3:14:01.480 --> 3:14:04.879 destroying it, You're destroying the ecosystem, You're showing the river ecosystems. 3:14:05.000 --> 3:14:08.600 This also again has problems with like it produces. It's 3:14:09.320 --> 3:14:11.600 it's the river's ability to serve as a carbon sink. 3:14:12.440 --> 3:14:14.640 And but but it's like, you know, what, what choice 3:14:14.680 --> 3:14:17.200 do you have? Right? Because you're energy the energy consumption 3:14:17.480 --> 3:14:21.200 heat waves massively increases because you need to cool yourself down, 3:14:21.240 --> 3:14:23.520 you need air conditioning, you need things like fans or 3:14:23.560 --> 3:14:26.000 people are going to die, and so like every single 3:14:26.080 --> 3:14:30.480 one of these like heat waves just sort of spirals. Yeah, 3:14:30.520 --> 3:14:32.440 I guess the last thing I wanted to talk about 3:14:32.480 --> 3:14:35.960 is something that we haven't We talked about this in 3:14:36.080 --> 3:14:38.880 like the very very early episodes of the show, but 3:14:39.000 --> 3:14:42.160 like haven't talked about much sense, which is wet bulb temperature. 3:14:43.160 --> 3:14:47.760 Oh yes, yeah, so for for for people who don't 3:14:47.800 --> 3:14:50.960 remember what this is, um, I mean we're talking a 3:14:51.040 --> 3:14:52.959 little bit about it earlier and that when you can't 3:14:53.000 --> 3:14:55.760 cool down at night, like the big things about a 3:14:55.800 --> 3:15:00.440 wet bulb temperature. But yeah, it's it's more complicated than that. Yeah, So, 3:15:00.600 --> 3:15:02.680 like I guess the basics of it is that, Okay, 3:15:02.720 --> 3:15:05.560 so your body like cools itself down by sweating, and 3:15:05.959 --> 3:15:08.680 when when the water evaporates off your skin, it cools 3:15:08.720 --> 3:15:10.160 you off and this is one of the big ways 3:15:10.200 --> 3:15:12.480 that your body sort of keeps your internal temperature under control. 3:15:13.000 --> 3:15:15.760 The problem basically is what if your sweat can't evaporate, 3:15:16.879 --> 3:15:19.840 and that that brings us to what what web bult 3:15:19.920 --> 3:15:24.640 wet bulb temperature is here here's NASA quote. Web bulb 3:15:24.879 --> 3:15:27.400 wet bulb temperature is the lowest temperature to which an 3:15:27.440 --> 3:15:31.080 object can cool down when moisture evaporates from it. So 3:15:31.240 --> 3:15:33.640 what is measuring for us is how cool our bodies 3:15:33.680 --> 3:15:37.560 can actually get from sweating. The problem is that at 3:15:37.560 --> 3:15:39.920 a web bulb temperature for about nineties seven degrees fahrenheight, 3:15:39.959 --> 3:15:42.200 your sweatsofts evaporating and you can't cool yourself and this 3:15:42.320 --> 3:15:47.200 kills you really really fast. Um. Here's NASA again talking 3:15:47.280 --> 3:15:49.920 to Colin Raymonds, who's from Who's I think he does 3:15:49.959 --> 3:15:54.640 climate stuff at the nasag Gempropulsion Laboratory. Once wet bulb 3:15:54.680 --> 3:15:58.119 temperature exceeds thirty five degrees celsia's or ninety five degrees fahrenheit, 3:15:58.280 --> 3:16:01.039 no amount of sweating or other adapt behavior is enough 3:16:01.120 --> 3:16:04.400 to lower your body to a safe operating temperature, said Raymond. 3:16:05.000 --> 3:16:06.720 Most of the time it's not a problem because the 3:16:06.760 --> 3:16:10.160 wet bulb temperature is usually five to tend degree celsius 3:16:10.240 --> 3:16:14.640 blow body temperature, even in hot, humid places. But you know, 3:16:14.959 --> 3:16:16.200 it's a point of no here by the way, that 3:16:16.240 --> 3:16:18.000 like the wet bulb wet bowl temperature is like not 3:16:18.120 --> 3:16:21.440 the same thing as regular temperature. Um. It's it's measuring 3:16:21.520 --> 3:16:24.360 something like that's different from how hot it is. And 3:16:24.520 --> 3:16:26.680 and it's worth noting that like the current heat waves, 3:16:27.160 --> 3:16:34.360 like they're really bad, but it hasn't really been hitting 3:16:34.400 --> 3:16:36.760 the web bowl temperature hasn't really been hitting the place 3:16:37.879 --> 3:16:41.039 places where they just are absolutely lethal and start killing 3:16:41.080 --> 3:16:43.959 hundreds of thousands of people. But that is going to happen, 3:16:44.720 --> 3:16:48.200 right even even in sort of like if even even 3:16:48.280 --> 3:16:51.560 in even in the climate models where you know, we 3:16:51.840 --> 3:16:54.600 we keep emissions to like two degrees right, which which 3:16:54.640 --> 3:16:56.160 at this point is looking like some of the optimistic 3:16:56.160 --> 3:16:57.440 models like this stuff is going to happen in the 3:16:57.480 --> 3:17:02.080 ex third fifty years and unless something drastically changes, like 3:17:02.600 --> 3:17:05.640 we're we're going to watch this happen. We're gonna watch 3:17:05.720 --> 3:17:08.120 country city seperatures, We're going to watch enormous numbers of 3:17:08.200 --> 3:17:13.360 people fall over dead. And yeah, this is um this 3:17:13.640 --> 3:17:15.760 this is where climate change is heading and it sucks. 3:17:16.000 --> 3:17:19.040 And the heat waves better that are hitting China, the 3:17:19.080 --> 3:17:20.680 heat waves are hitting India. The heat waves and we've 3:17:20.720 --> 3:17:26.119 seen here are like this is this is as goodes 3:17:26.240 --> 3:17:28.040 is going to get. It's just going to keep getting worse. 3:17:28.200 --> 3:17:30.680 I guess I should back up one second and talk 3:17:30.840 --> 3:17:32.360 a bit about the Chinese heat wave, which is that, 3:17:32.480 --> 3:17:35.800 like the Chinese seat wave isn't just like it just 3:17:35.920 --> 3:17:37.879 a climate change thing. There's other stuff going on here. 3:17:38.040 --> 3:17:41.080 There's there's there's like a very specific like confluence of 3:17:42.280 --> 3:17:45.840 like weather phenomenon like the Indi India and stuff like 3:17:45.879 --> 3:17:49.760 that that like Cohen's had to coincide to make a 3:17:49.800 --> 3:17:52.440 heat wave this bad. But the the problem is like 3:17:52.760 --> 3:17:56.840 that stuff is all going to happen again, and you know, 3:17:56.959 --> 3:18:01.000 so we're we're gonna we're gonna get like, yeah, we're 3:18:01.320 --> 3:18:06.720 gonna keep getting heat waves like this, and yeah unless 3:18:06.920 --> 3:18:15.920 we do something differently, Yeah, I mean we won't. I mean, well, 3:18:16.520 --> 3:18:20.600 you know, we'll twiddle around the edges. Um. The bind 3:18:20.680 --> 3:18:26.480 administration snug some language into the inflation bill that might 3:18:26.640 --> 3:18:29.840 allow the federal government to regulate CEO to still after 3:18:29.920 --> 3:18:33.680 the Supreme Court said they couldn't, but maybe not, could you, Chris? 3:18:33.720 --> 3:18:35.880 Would you why why don't we send a message to 3:18:36.000 --> 3:18:38.360 the people in Shanghai and let him know that that'll 3:18:39.480 --> 3:18:45.480 that'll help you listen to the podcast, Yeah, policymakers who 3:18:45.560 --> 3:18:49.200 listen to the podcast, Um, I don't know like it. 3:18:49.400 --> 3:18:53.680 This is it's one of those if we were to 3:18:53.800 --> 3:18:56.160 take if all of the policymakers who listened to our 3:18:56.200 --> 3:18:59.640 show were to take all of our advice immediately, um, 3:19:00.000 --> 3:19:02.520 and we were to transition every city away from being 3:19:02.680 --> 3:19:08.320 vehicle centered and like effectively cut our emissions by or more, 3:19:08.959 --> 3:19:12.480 we would still be locked into escalating heat waves like 3:19:12.600 --> 3:19:14.520 this all over the world for the rest of our 3:19:14.600 --> 3:19:18.000 natural lives because of the way the carbon cycle works. Um. 3:19:18.400 --> 3:19:21.000 Not that that wouldn't help in the long run, but 3:19:21.240 --> 3:19:24.080 it would certainly not. Like that's one of the things 3:19:24.160 --> 3:19:26.840 that's so scary about this is we're all girding ourselves 3:19:26.920 --> 3:19:29.320 for the inevitability that this will just become more common 3:19:29.400 --> 3:19:33.320 and more devastating. So true, Um, and for everyone that 3:19:33.440 --> 3:19:37.119 has a hard time breathing, there's always always the hope 3:19:37.360 --> 3:19:41.360 that via geoengineering, we can just pump more pollution into 3:19:41.360 --> 3:19:44.400 the air to reflect more sunlight, which will increase whole 3:19:44.440 --> 3:19:47.440 much of other diseases. You know, I watched the first 3:19:47.680 --> 3:19:50.400 seven seconds of the movie snow Piercer, and that does 3:19:50.440 --> 3:19:54.600 seem like an idea that would work. It's funny when 3:19:54.680 --> 3:19:56.960 when I was in school, I read like I read 3:19:57.000 --> 3:19:59.080 one of the first papers that was talking about this, 3:19:59.800 --> 3:20:01.760 and like the guy in the paper is like the 3:20:01.840 --> 3:20:04.160 opening of the paper is him literally going, this is 3:20:04.200 --> 3:20:06.240 a bad idea. We should only do this if there's 3:20:06.280 --> 3:20:09.440 literally no other choice. And then also like, this is 3:20:09.480 --> 3:20:11.400 the thing we do for like ten years to buy 3:20:11.480 --> 3:20:13.920 us more time to deal with regular climate change, and 3:20:14.000 --> 3:20:16.039 then as the years have gone on and as nothing 3:20:16.080 --> 3:20:21.520 has happened, you just gotta watch like, well, yeah, there's 3:20:21.560 --> 3:20:25.320 a Barack Obama's favorite book, Ministry for the Future, which 3:20:25.360 --> 3:20:27.680 is legitimately very good book. It's just funny that he 3:20:27.840 --> 3:20:33.640 likes it because it absolutely embraces terrorism in different killing politicians, 3:20:33.920 --> 3:20:37.560 it embraces sneaking into the house of oil and gas 3:20:37.640 --> 3:20:40.840 executives and murdering them in the night, as well as 3:20:40.879 --> 3:20:46.000 a wonky carbon crypto fucking investment portfolio. But like there's 3:20:46.040 --> 3:20:47.960 a lot of different ideas of that. Yeah, Like like 3:20:48.040 --> 3:20:49.680 a lot of the characters in that book would have 3:20:49.800 --> 3:20:54.840 killed Obama. Like it's yes, it's very like um. But 3:20:55.080 --> 3:20:57.320 one of the things that book deals with, the inciting 3:20:57.400 --> 3:21:00.440 incident of that book is a horrible wet bulb um 3:21:00.879 --> 3:21:03.680 moment in India that kills I think it's millions of 3:21:03.720 --> 3:21:07.880 people and just that like a nightmare disaster um. And 3:21:08.200 --> 3:21:10.480 one of the things the Indian government does, as a result, 3:21:10.560 --> 3:21:13.400 against the express wishes of the global community, is start 3:21:14.000 --> 3:21:17.320 like essentially like an atmosphere exceeding program in order to 3:21:17.440 --> 3:21:20.360 mitigate how bad the heat waves are. And like there's 3:21:20.360 --> 3:21:22.080 a bunch of consequences to that, And I kind of 3:21:22.160 --> 3:21:24.000 think one of the things that's most realistic about that 3:21:24.080 --> 3:21:26.240 book is as we have more ship like this happen, 3:21:26.760 --> 3:21:30.440 you will have nations on their own carry out climate 3:21:30.520 --> 3:21:34.720 mitigation efforts that could have serious effects on other countries 3:21:34.760 --> 3:21:36.320 because any of this stuff you do, like if you 3:21:36.440 --> 3:21:39.160 if you, if you seed clouds in the Southwest or 3:21:39.200 --> 3:21:41.360 whatever in order to increase rain, to raise the level 3:21:41.400 --> 3:21:44.720 of Lake mead um, that will like you can't funk 3:21:44.760 --> 3:21:47.040 with the water cycle like that and not have impacts 3:21:47.080 --> 3:21:50.200 other places. Um. And And this is a thing that 3:21:50.640 --> 3:21:54.320 certainly global law, like like the international legal system is 3:21:54.440 --> 3:21:57.920 not ready to deal with um And it's certainly something 3:21:58.000 --> 3:22:00.280 that our media ecosystem is not ready to deal with. 3:22:00.520 --> 3:22:04.119 And it will happen. This is an inevitability in my opinion. 3:22:05.560 --> 3:22:06.880 I mean, yeah, one of the things that we do 3:22:06.959 --> 3:22:10.080 want to talk more about is the reaction to this 3:22:10.120 --> 3:22:14.000 type of thing is going to be by capitalist countries, 3:22:14.040 --> 3:22:16.600 and like the climate Leviathan model is going to be 3:22:16.800 --> 3:22:21.039 too basically privatize the atmosphere and privatize the sky um 3:22:21.720 --> 3:22:29.080 and different ways that conrivatize sure, but pure hate in 3:22:29.160 --> 3:22:34.760 your face their gear. But between all of like the 3:22:34.959 --> 3:22:39.360 corporate like space projects and then stuff with g engineering, 3:22:39.600 --> 3:22:41.840 it's just gonna be renting out sections of the atmosphere 3:22:41.920 --> 3:22:45.040 so that the people can pump things into uh to 3:22:46.360 --> 3:22:49.600 for whatever, for whatever kind of carbon neutral thing they 3:22:49.680 --> 3:22:52.480 want to do or pumping ship into the atmosphere is 3:22:52.520 --> 3:22:54.440 what got us into this problem and it's what's going 3:22:54.520 --> 3:23:01.560 to get us out. So true. It's uh, it's kind 3:23:01.560 --> 3:23:03.240 of funny that in the U s H. I don't 3:23:03.280 --> 3:23:06.360 know if you saw this, but like this month which 3:23:06.400 --> 3:23:08.920 we were recording this in August, there was a discussion 3:23:08.959 --> 3:23:10.600 about how the water was going to be used in 3:23:10.640 --> 3:23:14.400 the Colorado River by the various states that I did. 3:23:14.520 --> 3:23:22.320 I did read that, Yeah, very depressing report. It's it's yeah, yeah, 3:23:22.480 --> 3:23:25.360 I just it ended with like basically each of them 3:23:25.520 --> 3:23:27.640 chest stumping at each other and big like no, funk you. 3:23:27.720 --> 3:23:29.640 I'll take as much water as I want. I'm upstream 3:23:29.680 --> 3:23:33.880 of you. I think Utah were the ones particularly belligerent 3:23:33.920 --> 3:23:36.560 in that case. But it is the opposite of what 3:23:36.720 --> 3:23:38.280 we need to do. But here we are doing it. 3:23:39.000 --> 3:23:43.640 I was in Utah last this month looking at new 3:23:43.680 --> 3:23:47.040 golf courses being built by Fisher Towers sounded the desert 3:23:47.080 --> 3:23:51.760 there and it's great. There's a fun Okay, So Andreas 3:23:51.840 --> 3:23:54.240 Mom's last book before he kind of went off the 3:23:54.400 --> 3:23:58.920 like weird Nicole leninist rails, it was called Fossil Capital, 3:23:59.040 --> 3:24:02.040 and he's a interesting argument that like one of the 3:24:02.120 --> 3:24:03.680 reasons that we got into this mess in the first place, 3:24:03.720 --> 3:24:06.280 one of the reasons like country companies started adopting coal 3:24:06.520 --> 3:24:09.040 was that even though coal was less efficient as like 3:24:09.800 --> 3:24:13.320 a source of electricity than having like water mills water 3:24:13.560 --> 3:24:15.640 like having a succession of water mills going down the 3:24:15.680 --> 3:24:19.200 same river requires a bunch of different corporations to like 3:24:19.400 --> 3:24:23.000 coordinate with each other, and they don't want to do that. 3:24:23.800 --> 3:24:27.360 And because sort of like the laws around who controls 3:24:27.520 --> 3:24:30.600 rivers is really sort of unclear, like they were just like, now, 3:24:30.640 --> 3:24:32.440 screwed this where it's gonna use coal even though it's worse. 3:24:32.920 --> 3:24:34.560 And the fun part about this is now we get 3:24:34.600 --> 3:24:37.400 to get this again with like river law, where it's like, 3:24:37.760 --> 3:24:40.800 oh hey, it turns out that capitalists and capitalist states 3:24:40.840 --> 3:24:45.200 are just utterly incapable of like sharing resources with each other, 3:24:45.800 --> 3:24:47.600 and they're just gonna try to section off increasing in 3:24:47.720 --> 3:24:51.680 large parts of it, which is going to go increasingly badly. Yeah. 3:24:51.720 --> 3:24:53.920 I mean, it's like one of the things, you're the 3:24:54.240 --> 3:24:58.080 failure to be able to imagine anything that exists outside 3:24:58.160 --> 3:25:03.200 of a profit and loss kind of mentality. Um is 3:25:03.600 --> 3:25:06.240 one of the major problems that we have, like all 3:25:06.320 --> 3:25:07.960 over with this, like there's right now. One of the 3:25:08.000 --> 3:25:10.160 big stories coming out of the UK is that as 3:25:10.160 --> 3:25:12.400 a result of the war in Ukraine and gas prices, 3:25:12.560 --> 3:25:15.640 the cost of heating has risen fucking massively. This is 3:25:15.680 --> 3:25:18.480 a problem for all of Europe um. And a lot 3:25:18.560 --> 3:25:21.320 of families in the UK are looking at the numbers 3:25:21.320 --> 3:25:23.680 I've seen in any like four thousand and even six 3:25:23.760 --> 3:25:27.320 seven thousand pounds to heat their houses during the winter, 3:25:27.680 --> 3:25:30.680 which is like ten to fifteen thousand real dollars. It's 3:25:30.680 --> 3:25:34.160 a lot of money, um, and it's substantially an excess 3:25:34.400 --> 3:25:36.920 of of what they have been paying in the past. 3:25:36.959 --> 3:25:39.400 And it's like that is enough. I mean, imagine yourself 3:25:39.480 --> 3:25:41.160 how many people live. I mean, I guess it's a 3:25:41.240 --> 3:25:44.080 small fraction of people listening who could afford an extra 3:25:44.160 --> 3:25:47.200 ten to twelve thousand dollars in bills this winter and 3:25:47.280 --> 3:25:51.000 not have it completely fucked their lives up. So obviously 3:25:51.160 --> 3:25:56.440 people cannot pay for their heating um this winter. And like, 3:25:56.640 --> 3:25:58.600 if you can't pay a bill, you're not going to 3:25:58.680 --> 3:26:00.360 pay a bill, right, That's one of the laws of 3:26:00.520 --> 3:26:02.600 the iron laws of finance. Bills that can't be paid 3:26:02.640 --> 3:26:04.840 won't be paid. So the state is coming in, but 3:26:04.959 --> 3:26:08.400 the state is not. Again, these companies, basically all of 3:26:08.480 --> 3:26:12.560 these companies are would be essentially insolvent, like if things 3:26:12.600 --> 3:26:14.880 were allowed to proceed naturally. So the government's going to 3:26:14.959 --> 3:26:17.280 have to do something. But the thing the government isn't 3:26:17.280 --> 3:26:19.360 going to do is like actually nationalize any of these 3:26:19.400 --> 3:26:22.400 heating companies. It's it's just going to like pump more 3:26:22.480 --> 3:26:25.080 tax anyway. It's it's it's it's the same thing. It's 3:26:25.080 --> 3:26:27.640 a failure to kind of imagine anything outside of this. Well, 3:26:27.680 --> 3:26:30.160 maybe if capitalism has broken down around this issue, this 3:26:30.280 --> 3:26:32.400 isn't an issue that should continue to be in the 3:26:32.520 --> 3:26:35.480 hands of corporations. Yeah. Well, and but the fun part 3:26:35.520 --> 3:26:38.760 about this too is that like okay, it's like, well, okay, 3:26:38.800 --> 3:26:41.039 well okay, well nationalize this and that will save us. 3:26:41.080 --> 3:26:43.600 And then you look at like what do act what 3:26:43.760 --> 3:26:47.240 do most of the world's nationally owned corporations look like? 3:26:47.760 --> 3:26:49.880 And it's like, well, okay, so the government owns it 3:26:50.920 --> 3:26:53.400 the stock, but then it functions exactly like a normal company. 3:26:54.280 --> 3:26:57.160 And I'm not saying like the solution is is not 3:26:57.680 --> 3:27:02.240 Sorry James, You're you're the actual Britain in this room. Yes, 3:27:03.160 --> 3:27:05.800 it's kind of funny because in Britain people are living 3:27:05.959 --> 3:27:09.039 on state pensions or a certain other like state programs, 3:27:09.080 --> 3:27:13.039 state disability and stuff. Get a winter fuel allowance normally, 3:27:13.640 --> 3:27:16.120 and the winter fuel allowance to schedule to go up 3:27:16.200 --> 3:27:18.680 like like less than a tenth of that that that 3:27:18.840 --> 3:27:22.280 amount that you just said would be the increased in 3:27:22.320 --> 3:27:24.240 the cost of heating, right, And it's still sort of 3:27:24.840 --> 3:27:27.279 it's just so funny to see, like in theory. Britain 3:27:27.360 --> 3:27:30.400 has several political parties, all of them especially with labor 3:27:30.480 --> 3:27:35.040 under kiss DAMA like a clustered under a neoliberal consensus 3:27:35.640 --> 3:27:40.360 and kiss that like rather than considering doing anything, they 3:27:40.440 --> 3:27:43.960 are bickering over like how much of a pittance they 3:27:44.000 --> 3:27:48.880 want to throw to poor people. I mean, yes, yeah, 3:27:49.080 --> 3:27:52.400 it's also very funny that Britain did build a desalination 3:27:52.480 --> 3:27:57.039 plant in the Thames Estuary um and forgot to account 3:27:57.120 --> 3:27:58.840 for the fact that due to it being an estuary, 3:27:58.959 --> 3:28:01.600 the river coming in and our h the levels of 3:28:02.080 --> 3:28:04.560 salt in the water would change and that would make 3:28:04.600 --> 3:28:09.920 the deceation. And it's fucking I think it's biodiesel fueled. 3:28:10.600 --> 3:28:15.560 It's just awesome, it's magnificent. Yeah, we've got great leaders 3:28:15.600 --> 3:28:17.880 over there and we don't need to change. Yeah, no, 3:28:18.080 --> 3:28:20.160 you you you seem to. Whenever I think of countries 3:28:20.240 --> 3:28:23.960 that have their ship together, I think the UK um. Yeah, 3:28:24.360 --> 3:28:26.840 you've got to remember that Nazis used bicycles when you're 3:28:26.840 --> 3:28:31.280 considering your options for transport and climate change in the future. 3:28:34.120 --> 3:28:38.960 Deranged British tweets of the day. Yeah, I mean, hey, okay, look, look, 3:28:39.120 --> 3:28:43.000 the one the one very dim silver lining is that 3:28:43.080 --> 3:28:45.480 maybe this will cause the British the entire British political 3:28:45.520 --> 3:28:50.040 system to collapse. Happens like twice a year, right, No, 3:28:50.160 --> 3:28:53.720 but but collapse here? Well, like, okay, here's the thing, 3:28:53.840 --> 3:28:56.400 right if if you have enough people who the government 3:28:56.520 --> 3:28:58.760 is trying to pay their bills, they start throwing Maltov's 3:28:58.800 --> 3:29:02.120 that stuff like this is a it's like this, this 3:29:02.280 --> 3:29:05.040 is actually a pretty reliable like one of the very 3:29:05.120 --> 3:29:07.800 reliable things that gets people to go fight police is 3:29:08.480 --> 3:29:10.720 like you suddenly increased the price of gas that that 3:29:10.800 --> 3:29:13.280 you don't need to drive or need to like heat 3:29:13.320 --> 3:29:18.920 their houses. So maybe I don't know, but then British 3:29:18.920 --> 3:29:20.880 people will also be barking for us to send the 3:29:20.959 --> 3:29:25.000 troops against the people who are protesting. For the right, Yeah, 3:29:25.440 --> 3:29:28.400 with dignity. It's one thing we love to do. Yeah, 3:29:28.879 --> 3:29:30.800 it's it's a it's a it's a fun it's a 3:29:30.879 --> 3:29:35.640 fun country. Oh yeah, it's a fun tream. Oh man, 3:29:37.040 --> 3:29:41.440 ye all right? Well are we are? We? Are we good? 3:29:41.520 --> 3:29:43.200 Have we? Have we solved this one? For all the 3:29:43.240 --> 3:29:50.440 policy makers who listened to our show? Yeah yeah, hit 3:29:50.520 --> 3:29:54.600 me up, fucking Lindsey Graham heat fan of the pod, 3:29:54.840 --> 3:30:01.800 Lindsey Graham. Yeah, Lindsey Graham is actually just voted to 3:30:02.000 --> 3:30:06.320 subsidize Molotov cocktail production. So thank you, thank you, Lindsay 3:30:06.520 --> 3:30:10.120 are are based fan of the policymakers who listen to 3:30:10.200 --> 3:30:13.199 our show. He must have been looking at the research. 3:30:13.680 --> 3:30:16.560 Mm hmmm. It's the only way, it's the only real 3:30:16.640 --> 3:30:23.200 way to stop climate change. You to make use of 3:30:23.240 --> 3:30:32.480 fossil fuels cotails. Yeah. Hey, we'll be back Monday with 3:30:32.760 --> 3:30:35.560 more episodes every week from now until the heat death 3:30:35.600 --> 3:30:38.160 of the universe. It could happen. Here is a production 3:30:38.200 --> 3:30:41.199 of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 3:30:41.320 --> 3:30:43.760 visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check 3:30:43.840 --> 3:30:46.080 us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 3:30:46.200 --> 3:30:48.879 or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 3:30:48.920 --> 3:30:51.480 for it could happen here. Updated monthly at cool Zone 3:30:51.520 --> 3:30:54.240 Media dot com slash Sources. Thanks for listening.